<div dir="ltr">Was taught to hate what people do, but never to hate people for who or what they are. No wonder I ended up on the P-List. In any event, in the essay Thomas provided, the author asks a wonderful question about life: what do the people live for? But the author, in the one sentence mixes the people, the ordinary people, with the extremists and murderers of innocence. We can't assume that the people want what Westerners want for them, or even what the partners in the region the West allies itself with, are advancing what the people want. There are a lot of different wants and needs. <div><br></div><div>What the extremists want is something we in the West must resist, at home and where it takes toot. How we do that is a question we've not been able to answer or address, as most of our actions have been counterproductive. </div><div><br></div><div>But finding out what the people want and love, what they live for, is a start. The refugees fleeing the region may be great spokespersons for these ideas, but, they may be of mostly one mind, after all, they are fleeing to the West to find safety and freedom from war and tyranny. Maybe the paternalistic orientalism is at a tipping point. It seems this is what is happening in IRan. </div><div><br></div><div>I don't really know.  </div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Thu, Nov 19, 2015 at 6:15 AM, John Bailey <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:sundayjb@gmail.com" target="_blank">sundayjb@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">That feeling when the Pynchon List is discussing who it's OK to hate.<br>
<br>
And we couldn't get through one group read of Bleeding Edge.<br>
<br>
PS Paul it's great to hear from you again lately. Elder statesman of<br>
the list, for the newcomers.<br>
<div class="HOEnZb"><div class="h5"><br>
On Thu, Nov 19, 2015 at 9:30 PM, Paul Mackin <<a href="mailto:mackin.paul@gmail.com">mackin.paul@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br>
> Ok to hate jihadist I thot<br>
><br>
> On Nov 18, 2015 8:58 PM, "Mark Thibodeau" <<a href="mailto:jerkyleboeuf@gmail.com">jerkyleboeuf@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br>
>><br>
>> I am finding it difficult to understand why it's okay to hate National<br>
>> Socialists as a group, but NOT Islamic fundamentalists. After all, NOT ALL<br>
>> NAZIS, like, worked in concentration camps, you know! And weren't they<br>
>> defending themselves and their homeland during a time of, like, WAR?<br>
>><br>
>> At what point does the cognitive dissonance result in a destructive<br>
>> resonance feedback loop that shakes all of reality apart?<br>
>><br>
>> J<br>
>><br>
>> On Wed, Nov 18, 2015 at 5:42 PM, ish mailian <<a href="mailto:ishmailian@gmail.com">ishmailian@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br>
>>><br>
>>> ah, the press. The first essay suggests there is a far more productive<br>
>>> way to think about the IS:<br>
>>><br>
>>> " It is much more productive to think about what the Islamic State’s<br>
>>> combatants, or those of any other extremist group, or ordinary, peaceable<br>
>>> Iraqis or Syrians want to live for."<br>
>>><br>
>>> But the essay, after this fine suggestion, resorts to blaming us and<br>
>>> those in the press for failing to follow this line of thought, then launches<br>
>>> a nutshell reading of history that dumps more blame on us. The second essay<br>
>>> is more of the same, blame, blame, blame.<br>
>>><br>
>>> What do the extremists want to live for?<br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
>>> On Wed, Nov 18, 2015 at 3:48 PM, Thomas Eckhardt<br>
>>> <<a href="mailto:thomas.eckhardt@uni-bonn.de">thomas.eckhardt@uni-bonn.de</a>> wrote:<br>
>>>><br>
>>>> The topic at hand is also discussed here:<br>
>>>><br>
>>>><br>
>>>> <a href="http://www.salon.com/2015/11/18/its_paul_krugman_vs_noam_chomsky_this_is_the_history_we_need_to_understand_paris_isis/" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.salon.com/2015/11/18/its_paul_krugman_vs_noam_chomsky_this_is_the_history_we_need_to_understand_paris_isis/</a><br>
>>>><br>
>>>><br>
>>>> <a href="http://www.salon.com/2015/11/15/we_brought_this_on_ourselves_after_paris_it_is_time_to_square_our_values_with_our_history/" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.salon.com/2015/11/15/we_brought_this_on_ourselves_after_paris_it_is_time_to_square_our_values_with_our_history/</a><br>
>>>><br>
>>>> In this case, as in the case of Ukraine, I generally agree with Smith<br>
>>>> without supporting every claim he makes.<br>
>>>><br>
>>>><br>
>>>> Am 18.11.2015 um 15:19 schrieb ish mailian:<br>
>>>>><br>
>>>>> While I agree that the narrative, "they hate us for our freedom" is<br>
>>>>> being trotted out again, and that such narratives are used to divert<br>
>>>>> attention from the atrocities committed by the West<br>
>>>><br>
>>>><br>
>>>> (...)<br>
>>>><br>
>>>> Thanks.<br>
>>>><br>
>>>> P.S. Did Bush say "freedom" or "freedoms"?<br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
>><br>
><br>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br></div>