<div dir="ltr">the socialist experiments are also dismal failures in south america--lula, chavez, that's what<br></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Sun, Mar 20, 2016 at 5:19 PM, ish mailian <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:ishmailian@gmail.com" target="_blank">ishmailian@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">Â What?<br>
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On Sun, Mar 20, 2016 at 12:46 PM, rich <<a href="mailto:richard.romeo@gmail.com">richard.romeo@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br>
> from what i've read the corruption re; Petrobas has not stopped under Lula<br>
> and Dilma.<br>
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> you sure dont give poor people credit for thinking for themselves do you?<br>
> being led by their noses by faceless elites. I dont buy it.<br>
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> On Sat, Mar 19, 2016 at 8:01 AM, ish mailian <<a href="mailto:ishmailian@gmail.com">ishmailian@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br>
>><br>
>> An excellent point.<br>
>> However, the fact that the protests are largely organized and funded<br>
>> by the elite, including the powerful elite outside the country who are<br>
>> desperate to get their greedy fingers on the resources of the nation<br>
>> and to put an end to one of the most successful efforts to support the<br>
>> poor, the landless, and the rights of the indigenous peoples calls for<br>
>> a closer examination of the protest objectives and its composition.<br>
>> That photograph of the wealthy white couple and the nanny has become a<br>
>> symbol of the need for such scrutiny. The PT, as the article points<br>
>> out, has a very loyal electorate, mostly poor and powerless and darker<br>
>> in complexion. The poor have hammered by the press, the government<br>
>> programs that helped to lift 50 million from abject poverty have been<br>
>> demonized by the rich, the affluent and their constituency, by the<br>
>> churches, by the business classes and even by the Vice president, who<br>
>> is, by strange workings of politics, not of the PT party. That the<br>
>> protesters embrace the prosecution of elites and of corrupt<br>
>> politicians is a common ground, but that they reject Lula/Dilma work<br>
>> to support the poorest members of the society must be analyzed and<br>
>> debated.<br>
>><br>
>> On Sat, Mar 19, 2016 at 5:40 AM, Kai Frederik Lorentzen<br>
>> <<a href="mailto:lorentzen@hotmail.de">lorentzen@hotmail.de</a>> wrote:<br>
>> ><br>
>> >> None of this is a defense of PT. Both because of genuine widespread<br>
>> >> corruption in that party and national economic woes, Dilma and PT are<br>
>> >> intensely unpopular among all classes and groups, even including the<br>
>> >> party’s<br>
>> >> working-class base. But the street protests — as undeniably large and<br>
>> >> energized as they have been — are driven by those who are traditionally<br>
>> >> hostile to PT. The number of people participating in these protests —<br>
>> >> while<br>
>> >> in the millions — is dwarfed by the number (54 million) who voted to<br>
>> >> re-elect Dilma less than two years ago. In a democracy, governments are<br>
>> >> chosen by voting, not by displays of street opposition — particularly<br>
>> >> where,<br>
>> >> as in Brazil, the protests are drawn from a relatively narrow societal<br>
>> >> segment. <<br>
>> ><br>
>> > When millions are marching the streets it's not nothing, yet a strong<br>
>> > manifestation of democracy. And while it's true that in parliamentarism<br>
>> > "governments are chosen by voting", the democratic possibilities of the<br>
>> > people, as the subject of the constituent power, can never be reduced to<br>
>> > taking part in elections and plebiscites. As Carl Schmitt says: The<br>
>> > people<br>
>> > are an immediately present and real entity.<br>
>> ><br>
>> > -----------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
>> ><br>
>> > "Nach der demokratischen Lehre von der verfassungsgebenden Gewalt des<br>
>> > Volkes<br>
>> > steht das Volk als Träger der verfassungsgebenen Gewalt außer und über<br>
>> > jeder<br>
>> > verfassungsgesetzlichen Normierung. Wenn ihm verfassungsgesetzlich<br>
>> > gewisse<br>
>> > Zuständigkeiten (Wahlen und Abstimmungen) übertragen werden, ist damit<br>
>> > seine<br>
>> > politische Handlungsmöglichkeit in einer Demokratie keineswegs erschöpft<br>
>> > und<br>
>> > erledigt. Neben allen solchen Normierungen bleibt das Volk als<br>
>> > unmittelbar<br>
>> > anwesende - nicht durch vorher umschriebene Normierungen, Geltungen und<br>
>> > Fiktionen vermittelte - wirkliche Größe vorhanden."<br>
>> ><br>
>> > Carl Schmitt: Verfassungslehre [1928], § 18, p. 242, Berlin 1993:<br>
>> > Duncker &<br>
>> > Humblot.<br>
>> ><br>
>> ><br>
>> > On 18.03.2016 21:16, ish mailian wrote:<br>
>> ><br>
>> ><br>
>> > <a href="https://theintercept.com/2016/03/18/brazil-is-engulfed-by-ruling-class-corruption-and-a-dangerous-subversion-of-democracy/" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://theintercept.com/2016/03/18/brazil-is-engulfed-by-ruling-class-corruption-and-a-dangerous-subversion-of-democracy/</a><br>
>> > -<br>
>> > Pynchon-l / <a href="http://www.waste.org/mail/?list=pynchon-l" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.waste.org/mail/?list=pynchon-l</a><br>
>> ><br>
>> ><br>
>> ><br>
>> -<br>
>> Pynchon-l / <a href="http://www.waste.org/mail/?listpynchon-l" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.waste.org/mail/?listpynchon-l</a><br>
><br>
><br>
-<br>
Pynchon-l / <a href="http://www.waste.org/mail/?listpynchon-l" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.waste.org/mail/?listpynchon-l</a><br>
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