<div dir="ltr">The P-list is looking more & more like the good/bad old days, when you were Terrance.<div><br></div><div>David Morris</div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Thu, May 5, 2016 at 3:14 PM, ish mailian <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:ishmailian@gmail.com" target="_blank">ishmailian@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">You will listen to Monte.<br>
Good dog that you are.<br>
<br>
On Thu, May 5, 2016 at 10:57 AM, David Morris <<a href="mailto:fqmorris@gmail.com">fqmorris@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br>
> Ish,<br>
><br>
> You have failed (once again) to make me pay any attention to your posts. I<br>
> inevitably delete them before completing the first sentence.<br>
><br>
> David Morris<br>
><br>
> On Thu, May 5, 2016 at 9:49 AM, ish mailian <<a href="mailto:ishmailian@gmail.com">ishmailian@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br>
>><br>
>> David,<br>
>><br>
>> On this thread and on the Holocaust thread you have failed to<br>
>> understand the use of terms. On the Holocaust, the post from Rich was<br>
>> very good. I suggest you re-read it and reconsider how the words, like<br>
>> "depict", "holocaust" , "genocide" are being used by your<br>
>> interlocutors. Rich demonstrates, with a gentle didactic post, a<br>
>> strategy you seem to prefer but hypocritically rarely employ, much<br>
>> knowledge of the camps and what happened at each and how one could<br>
>> certainly, as Doug has, for example, conclude that the holocaust is<br>
>> present in GR. On Anarchy, Mark intimated that the word has several<br>
>> meanings and that he was not using the term to mean no planning or the<br>
>> lack of any plan. Again, if you reconsider your rigid readings of<br>
>> terms, you, an obvious authority, may still, learn something new.<br>
>><br>
>> On Thu, May 5, 2016 at 9:37 AM, David Morris <<a href="mailto:fqmorris@gmail.com">fqmorris@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br>
>> > I also apologize for taking my objection to the label too far. The fact<br>
>> > that others have slapped the anarchy label on her isn't much of an<br>
>> > argument<br>
>> > about the content of her theories. My post about her championing the<br>
>> > "urban<br>
>> > villiage" against Pruitt-Igoe is the most direct description of her<br>
>> > work. I<br>
>> > would call that "organic."<br>
>> ><br>
>> > I agree it is semantic, but "anarchy" has connotations of "no-planning"<br>
>> > that<br>
>> > don't fit her at all. The fact that the Austrian Economics Cult embraced<br>
>> > (hijacked) her as "Anti-Planner" shows how labels can be misleading and<br>
>> > counter-productive. Their "connection" with her is parasitic.<br>
>> ><br>
>> > David Morris<br>
>> ><br>
>> ><br>
>> ><br>
>> > On Thu, May 5, 2016 at 7:12 AM, Mark Kohut <<a href="mailto:mark.kohut@gmail.com">mark.kohut@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br>
>> >><br>
>> >> OK...I apologize for going on after my simple post yesterday....I did<br>
>> >> not<br>
>> >> think it was so contestable.<br>
>> >> as this wiki entry sez, as is true of most major words describing<br>
>> >> ideas,<br>
>> >> 'There are many meanings to<br>
>> >> anarchism and not all of them are mutually exclusive"<br>
>> >><br>
>> >> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarchism" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarchism</a><br>
>> >><br>
>> >> In yesterday's Google Doodle article and in many summary presentations<br>
>> >> of<br>
>> >> Ms Jacobs' notions,<br>
>> >> the phrase 'street ballet" from her (or about her vision, don't know)<br>
>> >> is<br>
>> >> used as the positive vision she<br>
>> >> argued for deeply re the ineradicable human quality she believed<br>
>> >> necessary<br>
>> >> for right city life.<br>
>> >><br>
>> >> Knowing her work far less than Morris, that phrase and concept came to<br>
>> >> remind me later of, among other things,<br>
>> >> the anarchist's dance scene in Lot 49, under the bridge, everyone not<br>
>> >> bumping, a self-organizing dance/ballet<br>
>> >> that is part of TRP's vision, his hopeful vision. Then there is the<br>
>> >> anarchy theme in Against the Day.<br>
>> >><br>
>> >> When I would walk NY streets, including the Village or visit Washington<br>
>> >> Square or Union Square parks and see<br>
>> >> 1) chess hustlers playing 2) skateboarders 3) walkers 4) runners 5)<br>
>> >> simple<br>
>> >> stretchers and exercisers 6) sunbathers<br>
>> >> sunning 6) couples holding hands 7) couples canoodling 8) little<br>
>> >> picnics<br>
>> >> 9) readers sitting 10) kids playing marbles<br>
>> >> and more ....I would lightly marvel at how it all happened on its own,<br>
>> >> self-organized, little or no bumping, so to say, later coming to see<br>
>> >> it under the label of a kind of social anarchy good.<br>
>> >><br>
>> >> My attempt yesterday to link Jacobs 'street ballet' to a Pynchon's<br>
>> >> notion<br>
>> >> of anarchy was just a speculative attempt<br>
>> >> to point out that he lived in the Village when Jane was an activist<br>
>> >> with<br>
>> >> her 'radical' notions; he was around when her<br>
>> >> first book was published......I have asked myself and haven't found it<br>
>> >> in<br>
>> >> the scholars of TRP I've read where TRP's notions<br>
>> >> re anarchism might have come from....theorists like Kropotkin and<br>
>> >> Herzen---we know he went to see Stoppard's play<br>
>> >> on all these Russians decades later so there is them as a possible<br>
>> >> influence but I have also wondered about<br>
>> >> such as New Yorkers Goodman and Jacobs....<br>
>> >><br>
>> >><br>
>> >><br>
>> >> On Thu, May 5, 2016 at 7:48 AM, John Bailey <<a href="mailto:sundayjb@gmail.com">sundayjb@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br>
>> >>><br>
>> >>> Oh! I finally got the joke!<br>
>> >>> Wherein the P-list debates the definition of anarchy.<br>
>> >>> I'm with Joseph.<br>
>> >>> But what we really need is a someone who can authorise which<br>
>> >>> definition is correct.<br>
>> >>><br>
>> >>><br>
>> >>> On Thu, May 5, 2016 at 9:02 PM, Joseph Tracy <<a href="mailto:brook7@sover.net">brook7@sover.net</a>> wrote:<br>
>> >>> > To my thinking this is semantic. If by anarchic we mean mean an<br>
>> >>> > organizational tendency from less to no central authority or<br>
>> >>> > command, then<br>
>> >>> > Mark and other writers are using the term reasonably. If one means a<br>
>> >>> > political ideology with no executive decision makers and a<br>
>> >>> > committment to<br>
>> >>> > removing those in authority, then you win...<br>
>> >>> >> On May 4, 2016, at 5:13 PM, David Morris <<a href="mailto:fqmorris@gmail.com">fqmorris@gmail.com</a>><br>
>> >>> >> wrote:<br>
>> >>> >><br>
>> >>> >> To champion grass-roots social-based urbanism (championing "urban<br>
>> >>> >> villages," essentially) as opposed to the modernist urban renewal<br>
>> >>> >> ideals of<br>
>> >>> >> her time, doesn't make her in any way anarchistic. She was opposed<br>
>> >>> >> to<br>
>> >>> >> Modernism's ideals for urbanism. It has now long been recognized<br>
>> >>> >> that her<br>
>> >>> >> concepts of an organic people-oriented urbanism is much more<br>
>> >>> >> livable than<br>
>> >>> >> what she opposed. Essentially she was pointing out that the<br>
>> >>> >> ghettos that<br>
>> >>> >> were being torn down were much more livable that the Pruitt-Igoe<br>
>> >>> >> style<br>
>> >>> >> urbanism that was being proposed to replace it. She was right.<br>
>> >>> >> Labeling<br>
>> >>> >> that stance as "anarchism" is silly and misses the main ideas she<br>
>> >>> >> promoted.<br>
>> >>> >><br>
>> >>> >> This (Pruitt-Igoe) is what she opposed:<br>
>> >>> >><br>
>> >>> >><br>
>> >>> >><br>
>> >>> >> <a href="http://www.theguardian.com/cities/2015/apr/22/pruitt-igoe-high-rise-urban-america-history-cities" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.theguardian.com/cities/2015/apr/22/pruitt-igoe-high-rise-urban-america-history-cities</a><br>
>> >>> >><br>
>> >>> >> And the earlier city which surrounds the project (which was not the<br>
>> >>> >> product of anarchy in any meaningful sense - except as opposed to<br>
>> >>> >> Pruitt-Igoe)Â in the photo is what she championed.<br>
>> >>> >><br>
>> >>> >> David Morris<br>
>> >>> >><br>
>> >>> >> On Wed, May 4, 2016 at 3:48 PM, Mark Kohut <<a href="mailto:mark.kohut@gmail.com">mark.kohut@gmail.com</a>><br>
>> >>> >> wrote:<br>
>> >>> >> David,<br>
>> >>> >><br>
>> >>> >> There is a deep strain of human-sized, freedom-embracing,<br>
>> >>> >> non-top-down, self-organizing activities which<br>
>> >>> >> have been written about even here as 'anarchism'. See the anarchist<br>
>> >>> >> dance in Lot 49.<br>
>> >>> >><br>
>> >>> >> Jacob's vision of city life has been seen under these concepts by<br>
>> >>> >> many<br>
>> >>> >> for a long time: Here is the estimable<br>
>> >>> >> Richard Sennet for one: As Jane Jacobs points out, high<br>
>> >>> >> concentration<br>
>> >>> >> of dwelling units per acre and high land coverage are essential to<br>
>> >>> >> the ...<br>
>> >>> >> 1969), and the appreciative review by Richard Sennett, “The<br>
>> >>> >> Anarchism of<br>
>> >>> >> Jane Jacobs,†New York Review of Books ...<br>
>> >>> >><br>
>> >>> >> There are scores more which I am not hunting down. it is her vision<br>
>> >>> >> of<br>
>> >>> >> urban living, and parts of mumford's which might relate<br>
>> >>> >> them to Pynchon and are what I was referring to.<br>
>> >>> >><br>
>> >>> >> On Wed, May 4, 2016 at 4:12 PM, David Morris <<a href="mailto:fqmorris@gmail.com">fqmorris@gmail.com</a>><br>
>> >>> >> wrote:<br>
>> >>> >> Jane Jacobs was in no way connected to anarchism, but, like<br>
>> >>> >> Mumford,<br>
>> >>> >> she was a proponent of urban living, as are most architects just<br>
>> >>> >> about<br>
>> >>> >> anywhere...<br>
>> >>> >><br>
>> >>> >> David Morris<br>
>> >>> >><br>
>> >>> >> On Wed, May 4, 2016 at 2:32 PM, Mark Kohut <<a href="mailto:mark.kohut@gmail.com">mark.kohut@gmail.com</a>><br>
>> >>> >> wrote:<br>
>> >>> >> about urban theorist Jane Jacobs. Read up and see that<br>
>> >>> >> she shared many notions with Lewis Mumford, discussed a lot<br>
>> >>> >> here on the List. Her ideas of a vibrant diverse 'anarchic' street<br>
>> >>> >> and storefront life might dovetail with many of P's meanings of<br>
>> >>> >> anarchic goodness.<br>
>> >>> >><br>
>> >>> >> Remember that she lived in Greenwich Village, near Barthelme<br>
>> >>> >> (therefore<br>
>> >>> >> Pynchon) I believe and Grace Paley and her husband<br>
>> >>> >> most of the time TRP was supposed to have<br>
>> >>> >> lived there. I think.<br>
>> >>> >><br>
>> >>> >> Everything connects.<br>
>> >>> >><br>
>> >>> >><br>
>> >>> >><br>
>> >>> ><br>
>> >>> > -<br>
>> >>> > Pynchon-l / <a href="http://www.waste.org/mail/?listpynchon-l" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.waste.org/mail/?listpynchon-l</a><br>
>> >>> -<br>
>> >>> Pynchon-l / <a href="http://www.waste.org/mail/?listpynchon-l" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.waste.org/mail/?listpynchon-l</a><br>
>> >><br>
>> >><br>
>> ><br>
>> -<br>
>> Pynchon-l / <a href="http://www.waste.org/mail/?listpynchon-l" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.waste.org/mail/?listpynchon-l</a><br>
><br>
><br>
-<br>
Pynchon-l / <a href="http://www.waste.org/mail/?listpynchon-l" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.waste.org/mail/?listpynchon-l</a><br>
</blockquote></div><br></div>