<html><head><meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"></head><body dir="auto"><div>I grew up on Air Force bases, so maybe I shouldn't talk.<br><br><a href="http://www.innergroovemusic.com">Www.innergroovemusic.com</a></div><div><br>On May 7, 2016, at 1:22 PM, Monte Davis <<a href="mailto:montedavis49@gmail.com">montedavis49@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br><br></div><blockquote type="cite"><div><div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:small">Umm -- space the buildings a bit more widely, add more lawns and trees, and you get this -- 25,000 residents in 110 buildings :</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:small"><a href="https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f1/Peter_Cooper_Village_and_Stuyvesant_Town.jpg"> https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f1/Peter_Cooper_Village_and_Stuyvesant_Town.jpg</a></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:small"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:small">Which I hope didn't dehumanize me too much at 10 when my family moved there from a single-family home in a low-density Boston suburb, or my parents as they lived there for 25 years until they retired. We found it a safe, comfortable, impeccably maintained place to live, with a local social network not all that different from what we'd had before.</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:small"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:small">Which might be a hint that looking like a computer chip -- or the streets of San Narciso looking like copper traces on a circuit board -- doesn't actually tell you much. PCV-Stuyvesant Town differed from Pruitt-Igoe, above all in higher tenant income and social capital (and yeah, that meant mostly white and upper-blue-collar to middle-white-collar at the time), private ownership and management (and no, that is not a way of saying government can't do urban housing right). Those far outweighed the influence, if any, of design. Let's not aestheticize too much. </div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Sat, May 7, 2016 at 12:43 PM, Keith Davis <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:kbob42@gmail.com" target="_blank">kbob42@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:small"><a href="http://www.theguardian.com/cities/2015/apr/22/pruitt-igoe-high-rise-urban-america-history-cities" target="_blank">http://www.theguardian.com/cities/2015/apr/22/pruitt-igoe-high-rise-urban-america-history-cities</a><br><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:small">This place looks terrible! It looks like a big computer chip. A horribly dehumanizing place to live...<br></div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><div><div class="h5"><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Thu, May 5, 2016 at 6:10 PM, ish mailian <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:ishmailian@gmail.com" target="_blank">ishmailian@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">I like you Morris. A good dog is hard to find.<br>
<div><div><br>
On Thu, May 5, 2016 at 6:09 PM, ish mailian <<a href="mailto:ishmailian@gmail.com" target="_blank">ishmailian@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br>
> So you are bored now and would rather we flame and fight and fuck with<br>
> one another? Is that it? Bring back the bad old days?<br>
><br>
> Grow the fuck up. Get a life.<br>
> Of lick your balls for a while. Relax.<br>
><br>
> On Thu, May 5, 2016 at 4:45 PM, David Morris <<a href="mailto:fqmorris@gmail.com" target="_blank">fqmorris@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br>
>> The P-list is looking more & more like the good/bad old days, when you were<br>
>> Terrance.<br>
>><br>
>> David Morris<br>
>><br>
>> On Thu, May 5, 2016 at 3:14 PM, ish mailian <<a href="mailto:ishmailian@gmail.com" target="_blank">ishmailian@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br>
>>><br>
>>> You will listen to Monte.<br>
>>> Good dog that you are.<br>
>>><br>
>>> On Thu, May 5, 2016 at 10:57 AM, David Morris <<a href="mailto:fqmorris@gmail.com" target="_blank">fqmorris@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br>
>>> > Ish,<br>
>>> ><br>
>>> > You have failed (once again) to make me pay any attention to your posts.<br>
>>> > I<br>
>>> > inevitably delete them before completing the first sentence.<br>
>>> ><br>
>>> > David Morris<br>
>>> ><br>
>>> > On Thu, May 5, 2016 at 9:49 AM, ish mailian <<a href="mailto:ishmailian@gmail.com" target="_blank">ishmailian@gmail.com</a>><br>
>>> > wrote:<br>
>>> >><br>
>>> >> David,<br>
>>> >><br>
>>> >> On this thread and on the Holocaust thread you have failed to<br>
>>> >> understand the use of terms. On the Holocaust, the post from Rich was<br>
>>> >> very good. I suggest you re-read it and reconsider how the words, like<br>
>>> >> "depict", "holocaust" , "genocide" are being used by your<br>
>>> >> interlocutors. Rich demonstrates, with a gentle didactic post, a<br>
>>> >> strategy you seem to prefer but hypocritically rarely employ, much<br>
>>> >> knowledge of the camps and what happened at each and how one could<br>
>>> >> certainly, as Doug has, for example, conclude that the holocaust is<br>
>>> >> present in GR. On Anarchy, Mark intimated that the word has several<br>
>>> >> meanings and that he was not using the term to mean no planning or the<br>
>>> >> lack of any plan. Again, if you reconsider your rigid readings of<br>
>>> >> terms, you, an obvious authority, may still, learn something new.<br>
>>> >><br>
>>> >> On Thu, May 5, 2016 at 9:37 AM, David Morris <<a href="mailto:fqmorris@gmail.com" target="_blank">fqmorris@gmail.com</a>><br>
>>> >> wrote:<br>
>>> >> > I also apologize for taking my objection to the label too far. The<br>
>>> >> > fact<br>
>>> >> > that others have slapped the anarchy label on her isn't much of an<br>
>>> >> > argument<br>
>>> >> > about the content of her theories. My post about her championing the<br>
>>> >> > "urban<br>
>>> >> > villiage" against Pruitt-Igoe is the most direct description of her<br>
>>> >> > work. I<br>
>>> >> > would call that "organic."<br>
>>> >> ><br>
>>> >> > I agree it is semantic, but "anarchy" has connotations of<br>
>>> >> > "no-planning"<br>
>>> >> > that<br>
>>> >> > don't fit her at all. The fact that the Austrian Economics Cult<br>
>>> >> > embraced<br>
>>> >> > (hijacked) her as "Anti-Planner" shows how labels can be misleading<br>
>>> >> > and<br>
>>> >> > counter-productive. Their "connection" with her is parasitic.<br>
>>> >> ><br>
>>> >> > David Morris<br>
>>> >> ><br>
>>> >> ><br>
>>> >> ><br>
>>> >> > On Thu, May 5, 2016 at 7:12 AM, Mark Kohut <<a href="mailto:mark.kohut@gmail.com" target="_blank">mark.kohut@gmail.com</a>><br>
>>> >> > wrote:<br>
>>> >> >><br>
>>> >> >> OK...I apologize for going on after my simple post yesterday....I<br>
>>> >> >> did<br>
>>> >> >> not<br>
>>> >> >> think it was so contestable.<br>
>>> >> >> as this wiki entry sez, as is true of most major words describing<br>
>>> >> >> ideas,<br>
>>> >> >> 'There are many meanings to<br>
>>> >> >> anarchism and not all of them are mutually exclusive"<br>
>>> >> >><br>
>>> >> >> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarchism" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarchism</a><br>
>>> >> >><br>
>>> >> >> In yesterday's Google Doodle article and in many summary<br>
>>> >> >> presentations<br>
>>> >> >> of<br>
>>> >> >> Ms Jacobs' notions,<br>
>>> >> >> the phrase 'street ballet" from her (or about her vision, don't<br>
>>> >> >> know)<br>
>>> >> >> is<br>
>>> >> >> used as the positive vision she<br>
>>> >> >> argued for deeply re the ineradicable human quality she believed<br>
>>> >> >> necessary<br>
>>> >> >> for right city life.<br>
>>> >> >><br>
>>> >> >> Knowing her work far less than Morris, that phrase and concept came<br>
>>> >> >> to<br>
>>> >> >> remind me later of, among other things,<br>
>>> >> >> the anarchist's dance scene in Lot 49, under the bridge, everyone<br>
>>> >> >> not<br>
>>> >> >> bumping, a self-organizing dance/ballet<br>
>>> >> >> that is part of TRP's vision, his hopeful vision. Then there is the<br>
>>> >> >> anarchy theme in Against the Day.<br>
>>> >> >><br>
>>> >> >> When I would walk NY streets, including the Village or visit<br>
>>> >> >> Washington<br>
>>> >> >> Square or Union Square parks and see<br>
>>> >> >> 1) chess hustlers playing 2) skateboarders 3) walkers 4) runners 5)<br>
>>> >> >> simple<br>
>>> >> >> stretchers and exercisers 6) sunbathers<br>
>>> >> >> sunning 6) couples holding hands 7) couples canoodling 8) little<br>
>>> >> >> picnics<br>
>>> >> >> 9) readers sitting 10) kids playing marbles<br>
>>> >> >> and more ....I would lightly marvel at how it all happened on its<br>
>>> >> >> own,<br>
>>> >> >> self-organized, little or no bumping, so to say, later coming to<br>
>>> >> >> see<br>
>>> >> >> it under the label of a kind of social anarchy good.<br>
>>> >> >><br>
>>> >> >> My attempt yesterday to link Jacobs 'street ballet' to a Pynchon's<br>
>>> >> >> notion<br>
>>> >> >> of anarchy was just a speculative attempt<br>
>>> >> >> to point out that he lived in the Village when Jane was an activist<br>
>>> >> >> with<br>
>>> >> >> her 'radical' notions; he was around when her<br>
>>> >> >> first book was published......I have asked myself and haven't found<br>
>>> >> >> it<br>
>>> >> >> in<br>
>>> >> >> the scholars of TRP I've read where TRP's notions<br>
>>> >> >> re anarchism might have come from....theorists like Kropotkin and<br>
>>> >> >> Herzen---we know he went to see Stoppard's play<br>
>>> >> >> on all these Russians decades later so there is them as a possible<br>
>>> >> >> influence but I have also wondered about<br>
>>> >> >> such as New Yorkers Goodman and Jacobs....<br>
>>> >> >><br>
>>> >> >><br>
>>> >> >><br>
>>> >> >> On Thu, May 5, 2016 at 7:48 AM, John Bailey <<a href="mailto:sundayjb@gmail.com" target="_blank">sundayjb@gmail.com</a>><br>
>>> >> >> wrote:<br>
>>> >> >>><br>
>>> >> >>> Oh! I finally got the joke!<br>
>>> >> >>> Wherein the P-list debates the definition of anarchy.<br>
>>> >> >>> I'm with Joseph.<br>
>>> >> >>> But what we really need is a someone who can authorise which<br>
>>> >> >>> definition is correct.<br>
>>> >> >>><br>
>>> >> >>><br>
>>> >> >>> On Thu, May 5, 2016 at 9:02 PM, Joseph Tracy <<a href="mailto:brook7@sover.net" target="_blank">brook7@sover.net</a>><br>
>>> >> >>> wrote:<br>
>>> >> >>> > To my thinking this is semantic. If by anarchic we mean mean an<br>
>>> >> >>> > organizational tendency from less to no central authority or<br>
>>> >> >>> > command, then<br>
>>> >> >>> > Mark and other writers are using the term reasonably. If one<br>
>>> >> >>> > means a<br>
>>> >> >>> > political ideology with no executive decision makers and a<br>
>>> >> >>> > committment to<br>
>>> >> >>> > removing those in authority, then you win...<br>
>>> >> >>> >> On May 4, 2016, at 5:13 PM, David Morris <<a href="mailto:fqmorris@gmail.com" target="_blank">fqmorris@gmail.com</a>><br>
>>> >> >>> >> wrote:<br>
>>> >> >>> >><br>
>>> >> >>> >> To champion grass-roots social-based urbanism (championing<br>
>>> >> >>> >> "urban<br>
>>> >> >>> >> villages," essentially) as opposed to the modernist urban<br>
>>> >> >>> >> renewal<br>
>>> >> >>> >> ideals of<br>
>>> >> >>> >> her time, doesn't make her in any way anarchistic. She was<br>
>>> >> >>> >> opposed<br>
>>> >> >>> >> to<br>
>>> >> >>> >> Modernism's ideals for urbanism. It has now long been<br>
>>> >> >>> >> recognized<br>
>>> >> >>> >> that her<br>
>>> >> >>> >> concepts of an organic people-oriented urbanism is much more<br>
>>> >> >>> >> livable than<br>
>>> >> >>> >> what she opposed. Essentially she was pointing out that the<br>
>>> >> >>> >> ghettos that<br>
>>> >> >>> >> were being torn down were much more livable that the Pruitt-Igoe<br>
>>> >> >>> >> style<br>
>>> >> >>> >> urbanism that was being proposed to replace it. She was right.<br>
>>> >> >>> >> Labeling<br>
>>> >> >>> >> that stance as "anarchism" is silly and misses the main ideas<br>
>>> >> >>> >> she<br>
>>> >> >>> >> promoted.<br>
>>> >> >>> >><br>
>>> >> >>> >> This (Pruitt-Igoe) is what she opposed:<br>
>>> >> >>> >><br>
>>> >> >>> >><br>
>>> >> >>> >><br>
>>> >> >>> >><br>
>>> >> >>> >> <a href="http://www.theguardian.com/cities/2015/apr/22/pruitt-igoe-high-rise-urban-america-history-cities" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.theguardian.com/cities/2015/apr/22/pruitt-igoe-high-rise-urban-america-history-cities</a><br>
>>> >> >>> >><br>
>>> >> >>> >> And the earlier city which surrounds the project (which was not<br>
>>> >> >>> >> the<br>
>>> >> >>> >> product of anarchy in any meaningful sense - except as opposed<br>
>>> >> >>> >> to<br>
>>> >> >>> >> Pruitt-Igoe) in the photo is what she championed.<br>
>>> >> >>> >><br>
>>> >> >>> >> David Morris<br>
>>> >> >>> >><br>
>>> >> >>> >> On Wed, May 4, 2016 at 3:48 PM, Mark Kohut<br>
>>> >> >>> >> <<a href="mailto:mark.kohut@gmail.com" target="_blank">mark.kohut@gmail.com</a>><br>
>>> >> >>> >> wrote:<br>
>>> >> >>> >> David,<br>
>>> >> >>> >><br>
>>> >> >>> >> There is a deep strain of human-sized, freedom-embracing,<br>
>>> >> >>> >> non-top-down, self-organizing activities which<br>
>>> >> >>> >> have been written about even here as 'anarchism'. See the<br>
>>> >> >>> >> anarchist<br>
>>> >> >>> >> dance in Lot 49.<br>
>>> >> >>> >><br>
>>> >> >>> >> Jacob's vision of city life has been seen under these concepts<br>
>>> >> >>> >> by<br>
>>> >> >>> >> many<br>
>>> >> >>> >> for a long time: Here is the estimable<br>
>>> >> >>> >> Richard Sennet for one: As Jane Jacobs points out, high<br>
>>> >> >>> >> concentration<br>
>>> >> >>> >> of dwelling units per acre and high land coverage are essential<br>
>>> >> >>> >> to<br>
>>> >> >>> >> the ...<br>
>>> >> >>> >> 1969), and the appreciative review by Richard Sennett, “The<br>
>>> >> >>> >> Anarchism of<br>
>>> >> >>> >> Jane Jacobs,†New York Review of Books ...<br>
>>> >> >>> >><br>
>>> >> >>> >> There are scores more which I am not hunting down. it is her<br>
>>> >> >>> >> vision<br>
>>> >> >>> >> of<br>
>>> >> >>> >> urban living, and parts of mumford's which might relate<br>
>>> >> >>> >> them to Pynchon and are what I was referring to.<br>
>>> >> >>> >><br>
>>> >> >>> >> On Wed, May 4, 2016 at 4:12 PM, David Morris<br>
>>> >> >>> >> <<a href="mailto:fqmorris@gmail.com" target="_blank">fqmorris@gmail.com</a>><br>
>>> >> >>> >> wrote:<br>
>>> >> >>> >> Jane Jacobs was in no way connected to anarchism, but, like<br>
>>> >> >>> >> Mumford,<br>
>>> >> >>> >> she was a proponent of urban living, as are most architects just<br>
>>> >> >>> >> about<br>
>>> >> >>> >> anywhere...<br>
>>> >> >>> >><br>
>>> >> >>> >> David Morris<br>
>>> >> >>> >><br>
>>> >> >>> >> On Wed, May 4, 2016 at 2:32 PM, Mark Kohut<br>
>>> >> >>> >> <<a href="mailto:mark.kohut@gmail.com" target="_blank">mark.kohut@gmail.com</a>><br>
>>> >> >>> >> wrote:<br>
>>> >> >>> >> about urban theorist Jane Jacobs. Read up and see that<br>
>>> >> >>> >> she shared many notions with Lewis Mumford, discussed a lot<br>
>>> >> >>> >> here on the List. Her ideas of a vibrant diverse 'anarchic'<br>
>>> >> >>> >> street<br>
>>> >> >>> >> and storefront life might dovetail with many of P's meanings of<br>
>>> >> >>> >> anarchic goodness.<br>
>>> >> >>> >><br>
>>> >> >>> >> Remember that she lived in Greenwich Village, near Barthelme<br>
>>> >> >>> >> (therefore<br>
>>> >> >>> >> Pynchon) I believe and Grace Paley and her husband<br>
>>> >> >>> >> most of the time TRP was supposed to have<br>
>>> >> >>> >> lived there. I think.<br>
>>> >> >>> >><br>
>>> >> >>> >> Everything connects.<br>
>>> >> >>> >><br>
>>> >> >>> >><br>
>>> >> >>> >><br>
>>> >> >>> ><br>
>>> >> >>> > -<br>
>>> >> >>> > Pynchon-l / <a href="http://www.waste.org/mail/?listpynchon-l" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.waste.org/mail/?listpynchon-l</a><br>
>>> >> >>> -<br>
>>> >> >>> Pynchon-l / <a href="http://www.waste.org/mail/?listpynchon-l" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.waste.org/mail/?listpynchon-l</a><br>
>>> >> >><br>
>>> >> >><br>
>>> >> ><br>
>>> >> -<br>
>>> >> Pynchon-l / <a href="http://www.waste.org/mail/?listpynchon-l" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.waste.org/mail/?listpynchon-l</a><br>
>>> ><br>
>>> ><br>
>>> -<br>
>>> Pynchon-l / <a href="http://www.waste.org/mail/?listpynchon-l" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.waste.org/mail/?listpynchon-l</a><br>
>><br>
>><br>
-<br>
Pynchon-l / <a href="http://www.waste.org/mail/?listpynchon-l" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.waste.org/mail/?listpynchon-l</a><br>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><br></div></div><span class="HOEnZb"><font color="#888888">-- <br><div><div dir="ltr"><a href="http://www.innergroovemusic.com" target="_blank">www.innergroovemusic.com</a><br><br></div></div>
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