will pain remain the game: part III

an interview with nivek ogre

How did you meet cEvin?

I met cEvin in Vancouver. He used to be in a band called Images In Vogue. And the bass player from Images In Vogue, Gary Smith, and I became friends. And cEvin lived in Gary's building. Gary was still partying, and cEvin, for that brief part of his life, had decided not to party - decided that it was getting too weird, or whatever. I was married at the time and that kind of went down the tubes. So I met cEvin through that whole situation. And I think he found me the first time, when I was living on the north shore in Vancouver, spending my welfare checks at Safeway (supermarket) - he worked at Safeway - the "check-out guy".

He was a Safeway check-out guy?

Yeah.

Here's something I've been wondering - if Al Jourgensen has the WELT logo tattooed on his arm, do you have the Revolting Cocks logo tattooed on your arm?

I do. We got them done in Vancouver at the same time. I'm sure Al's is buried under a mass of other stuff - the morphology of Al's skin has been taken over by some huge penis or something.

Tell me about WELT - is it something that's been in you for a long time, or is it a new thing...

It's entirely new. Everything that's come from WELT before is gone. This is something that I worked on with Mark Walk. When I met Mark, we really got along well, so I decided to work with him on this project. I'd kind of done it - with Al, in a way, it never really got off the ground, and with Raven from Killing Joke, a thing happened where we didn't speak - I just saw Raven about a half a week ago, it was so bizarre. But it was good to see him - it was nice to see him - no hard feelings. But he kind of "did me wrong" in the sense of what his intentions were with the band - it was strictly a business thing with him. Even to the point where he went out and tried to get a $20,000 publishing deal based upon me that wasn't even done, and at that point I said, "Fuck this," and cut out again. And then I met Mark. And during all this huge Skinny Puppy fiasco we just went up - at one point he said, "You're just going crazy." Because I WAS going crazy down there, I was going, "What is going on?" you know, stagnating. So he said, "Come on up." So we moved up (to Seattle) and found a house - all these things were kind of 'meant to be' - so we found this house that this woman, who was in an old folks home, needed to have looked after - so we got this house in Seattle for $650 a month with all bills paid, so we could bring up all of our animals. We brought up the cats, the dogs, the possum. We actually were able to spend time working on the record for eight months. Mark's a very giving person, and an extremely talented song-writer. He took a lot of my ideas, and started working on them. So it was a real learning experience for me in a lot of ways.

Had you contributed to the music of Skinny Puppy, or was this your first real experience in expressing yourself musically?

As to contributing my own music, I was too insecure about bringing things to the table, in a lot of ways. Because there was that kind of separation between Skinny Puppy, for me, anyway, musically, in a lot of ways.

And how would you describe that separation?

You'll hear cEvin very plainly, in that I just did basically the vocals, and whenever I could I'd do whatever treatments I could if I was so inclined, but generally speaking, the musical side of the band was left to cEvin and Dwayne. Dwayne, for the most part, was a very confident, classical pianist. He was probably a lot more giving than cEvin was in a lot of ways, but it was just of programming that I had to deprogram in myself, because, I like can't just say that it was, "Oh, they were treating me bad." They did throw a lot of comments out that made me feel insecure, but I built that wall of insecurity around myself. So it was really of my own doing. So that separation became permanent within Skinny Puppy.

So you're saying that, in the beginning it was established that you didn't contribute to the musical content?

Well, I did in the beginning a little bit. But then cEvin - I don't want to sound like I'm slagging cEvin, but it's the truth - cEvin was like this to Rave, too. Rave and I used to always talk about - when Rave had a part he wanted to put down, he'd start playing it, and cEvin would walk in the studio and go, "Well what are you doing?", and just kind of really, really deflate him with what he was doing. It may not have even been the part that he wanted to play, but he was working up to that part. And so you'd be deflated, in a lot of ways. And that kind of existed because cEvin felt like he had his vision of what Skinny Puppy was, and I respect that to a certain degree, but there was never really the openness to a lot of that kind of collaboration, at least between me and cEvin, to a certain degree. Perhaps between Rave and cEvin, that changed over the years, because Rave obviously, on this record, became kind of the glue that held everything together and completed the project. And I'm sure things have changed even within cEvin now, to where he probably wouldn't be that way.

cEvin also said that Rave was the glue...

Yeah. Without a doubt. Rave was the therapist - he knew us all. He knew what he could and couldn't do with each of us in any situation together. In a way, that's why a lot of things in Malibu happened.

I noticed that on VivisectVI Rave is given equal credit to you guys - what is the reason behind that?

Well, at that time Rave was feeling hurt by the fact that when cEvin was writing down a lot of publishing, and things that he wasn't getting his percentages, the fact that he played, and I think from my recollection about that, it was kind of, again, a way of saying, "Rave, you're one of the guys."

When I spoke to Rave, he lit up when I talked about that album.

Yeah, well, what's really odd about VivisectVI was, my memories of VivisectVI are really fond too in the sense that Rave and I did a lot of work together on that record, especially on "Testure", and I think at that point in the band there was kind of the edginess without the going over the edge effect of where a lot of things took various people, and so there was a lot of political themes in that record, and there was just a lot of care taken - I mean, Rave and I spent a lot of time - that was the one record where I was allowed to do a lot of vocal treatments, a lot of sampling and insert that into the mix, without cEvin knowing it at the time until after he heard it, and he heard it was cool, and then it was okay. So yeah... that was a really good time, working on that record.

Would you say that VivisectVI was the best album, in terms of creativity within the band being expressed to its fullest?

I don't know. I mean, you can look at all the records and you can hear a certain amount of creativity in all the records and I think there's a certain level of integrity within all the records that I'll hold onto for the rest of my life, but I think with all the early records, there were moments of divine intervention, where it was like just really great, and there was also the lack of money that we experienced making the records, where we couldn't take a lot of the things - if something didn't turn out the way we wanted it to, we didn't have the time or the money to go back and start over again. We were kind of limited in those early records, but out of that limited kind of spectrum we found a lot of really interesting things that were created on the spot, or just happened. I think VivisectVI is one of my favorite records, conceptually, but to put it relative to all the rest of the records is - there's bits of each record that I find inspiration in and then there's bits that I don't, so it's hard to say. It's hard for me to say which album was the best, 'cause I was a part of it.

(I'm laughing) FACE IT! That's the best album!

(laughing back) Okay - that's the best record.

As an entire album.

Okay - I'll totally take your word on it.

As an entire work, without having parts that I'd want to change. For me, anyway. There's not one note that I would take away or add to that album.

I'll like go with your opinion.

Regarding WELT - you sent me an e-mail where you wrote "Weltschmertz" which means "Universal Pain" - is pain going to be an ongoing theme?

Well, hopefully not. I mean, yeah - I've kind of conditioned my mind to play with those elements of my psyche that thrive off of that certain experience, so I don't know if I can ever change that. I don't know if it's possible to change that, to become a sort of a more positive real person or a more positive artist, I mean, I don't know.

But you're a happy guy - come on...

I'm a real happy guy... Loaded with all these little happy thoughts. Little flags pop up all the time, "Remember - be HAPPY!"

Yes.

I mean, I have a pretty good life. If that's worth writing about, it isn't what interests me. The mundane things of a person's life don't really interest me. It's the places that you don't really understand, and you want to try and understand more - the unfolding of my life as it was exhibited within Skinny Puppy was obviously a smaller fraction of what my life really was, or my life really is. And yeah, it was a very important part of my life. And was obviously a part of my life that I fixated on for some reason. So the unwinding and the deciphering process of the last ten years is where you have to go. And that was always, even within the roots of Skinny Puppy, there was always looking back from where you came and why you think this way and seeing where it will go and why it had to go this way. And I'm sure there's going to be things that I face in my life that I've not yet turned over, in their rock-like form, which are going to slam me in the face, and make me see things differently and make me appreciate things more or hate things more or whatever.

Feel things more. Feel things more, to a certain degree. I think I've always felt things that kind of get numbed towards certain areas, certain parts - but yeah. It's hard to say - will pain remain the game for the future, but we'll see what life brings to the playing board.

Yeah... so WELT - is it "When Everyone Learns the Truth" or "What Everyone Likes to Think"?

It was originally sarcastically "When Everyone Learns the Truth".

Well, I came up with "When Everyone Learns to Think".

"When Everyone Learns to Think". That's fine too. It's an open playing field.

Oh no! Don't make it an open playing field!

Why?

Because then the Internet will be flooded with "What does WELT stand for?"

It already is! On the Information Super-Lie-Way!

Do you have a title for your new album?

Not as yet. Not until the artwork is done and we get a graphic of this last stage of a kind of peripheral event that could effect the outcome of the project in a lot of ways, so I'm still waiting. One title I did have and now there's two titles that were running around in my mind - one was Bedside Toxicology and the other is just WELT is? and beyond that we'll see. I mean, I'm not even going to think of an album title right now, until the artwork's done - I want to see the artwork.

And will Steven Gilmore be doing the artwork?

Well, maybe with Clive Barker - if everything goes cool. He agreed to do it, and I haven't gotten back to him. This was back when I met him, just briefly, we were on the set of "Lord of Illusions." I've talked to him a few times and he knows very well about Skinny Puppy. We've always gone to meet him when he came around to do his book reading in Vancouver and so I'm kind of excited about that. I want him to do a sketch, if he can, for the cover and that might dictate where it goes, but he was interested in the whole of what the word WELT brought to mind, so we'll see when that does - that will be done along with Steven Gilmore.

Trent Reznor is a big fan of Clive Barker - I believe he thanks him on every album.

Really?

Yep. And speaking of Trent, I have a videotape of the two of you singing a "Suck" duet with Pigface in Pittsburgh. It's really funny, because you sing a line, and then you toss the cigarette you've got while you're singing, and then you look for another one, light up and that whole event is sequenced over and over ...

(laughing) It sounds awful!

No - it's actually good fun. It's more like hanging out with friends instead - I mean it would suck if you were paying money to see that, but it's fun - do you know what I mean?

Yeah! Oh, yeah...

Let's say it's educational from a historical perspective.

So you like the new Skinny Puppy then?

Yeah. But not the whole thing. I think some it's kind of raw... It's about 25% raw hamburger meat - but the rest is a well-cooked Puppy, I guess.

That's all there was.

I thought the order of the tracks was problematic from the start.

You'd have to talk to Mr. Crompton about that. Do you like "Candle" any more now?

I "sort of" like it. But I have to be in a rather strange mood.

I took from your review that you were a little confused by "Candle".

It's confusing - when you first hear it, you think, "Didn't Bob Dylan record in Shangri-la?"

But it does mutate.

Yeah - when the electric guitar comes crashing in...

I really like that track. I mean, I'm really proud of that track lyrically and just with the overall feeling of that track. A lot of the nerves that it touches in a lot of ways are really there. It isn't really a Skinny Puppy track though.

No - it's not. That's the "strange" part. That's the beauty of it. It charts off somewhere else - not even like ourselves which is neat. And I don't think there's anything like that anywhere - is there? - maybe Bob Dylan.

It's a touch of Dylan and made me think of the Swans a little bit. Do you like the Swans?

I do.

Michael Gira is one extremely intense dude.

Forth