MDMD(2): Deflation and Friendship flip-flop

[jporter]

Sojourner challenges:

>Before you continue to proselytize, I challenge you to prove to me that
>science is neutral in any sense of the word.  It is not neutral, objective,
>or anything of the sort, and never has been.  I think Pirsig proved that
>beyond a shadow of a doubt.
>

Have I continued to proselytize? Pardon me, I hadn't noticed. And inspite
of your tack, I do not believe for one moment that Sojourner is at War with
the Sciences, nor actually, with me. I was refering to science as a body of
reproducible measurement made under highly specified and controlled
circumstances, which, if care is taken, can be reproduced by any one or
group, regardless of ideology- or something like that. My point being that
the data itself, is, if collected properly, objective, but that it is
always interpreted by people (those who connect the dots), none of whom is
ever perfectly objective or neutral. Please don't bore us with a lengthy
dissertation on the sociology of science and all its tawdry detail. We are
well aware of the subjective aspects of the scientific enterprise.

>>The truth does not make
>>us free. It doesn't care whether we are free or not.

That's right. Only we (life forms) care, i.e., have values. I am refering
to an external reality (truth) which exists completely independent of our
species, but of which we are a part. The Dodo is extinct, the world
continues. The same could happen to us.

>I imagine we could have this discussion for centuries. Free?  Free from
>what?  And "it", the truth, has feelings?  It cares?  Then what is "it"?
>Besides a crappy song and super-generalized cocktail party discussions of
>metaphysics?
>

We could only have this discussion for centuries if we were well beyond the
norm of human biology. I am tired of it already! You miss my point
completely. You are agreeing with me. "The truth" doesn't care, only life
forms do. We have only a subjective take on objective reality. Although I
believe in an objective reality, in the end, it is only a belief, I can't
prove it except to those willing to entertain a similar belief. No amount
of "truth" will ever free us from the "prison" of subjectivity, there is
only faith in a reality beyond our own subjective experiences.

>...Besides a crappy song and super-generalized cocktail party discussions of
>metaphysics?

Did you think that this was some sort of higher forum? At least crappy
songs have a beat and cocktail parties have cocktails.


jody