GRGR (15): Good & Evil (with M&D bits)

Tue Dec 14 13:22:12 CST 1999

Wow, Seb, all I can say is I'm glad you've jumped onboard!

As for M&D spoilers, I think that's a non-issue.  The MDMD here was finished 
about a year ago.  Anyone who's not read MD yet should only be provoked to 
do so by your "spoilers."

As for this GRGR, the scheduled reading sections and hosts are the following 
(there are unclaimed sections so feel free to volunteer):

Nov 15/Section 14  (pp.295-314): Jeremy Ludlow
Nov 29/Section 15  (pp.314-336): Matt Treyvaud
Dec 13/Section 16  (pp.336-359): Peter Petto
Jan 03/Section 17  (pp.359-383): Hilary Granados
Jan 17/Section 18  (pp.383-408): Jeremy Osner
Jan 31/Section 19  (pp.409-433): Jeremy Osner
Feb 14/Section 20  (pp.433-456): Michael Perez
Feb 28/Section 21  (pp.457-482): Richard Wilson
Mar 13/Section 22  (pp.482-505):
Mar 27/Section 23  (pp.505-525):
Apr 10/Section 24  (pp.525-548): David Morris

>From: "Seb Thirlway"
>
> >Good discussion. I've got another question however. What would
>the result
> >be if we changed the subject of the thread from "Good & Evil" to
> >"Pleasure & Pain?"
>
>Much easier to talk about, I think; less risk of being smacked on
>the head with an ad absurdum argument invoking REAL child abuse
>or the REAL Holocaust.
>
>Evil and good are such theological and philosophical
> >notions. Pleasure and pain are more down to earth. So, under the
> >new scheme MORALITY would consist in trying to promote pleasure
>and
> >trying to prevent pain (an optimizing problem, but no matter).
>
>what would this morality have to say about Slothrop, or Mason
>with (SPOILER - is being coy about M&D still necessary, by the
>way or has everyone read it?) his melancholy obsession with
>Rebekah?  Not about their actions, but about what to do towards
>them - how would you prevent their pain, and should you?  Just
>imagining how Dixon would cope with Slothrop, as an idle fantasy.
>Probably get on very well, tho' Dixon might have some hard
>thinking to do when he smoaked that what he does out of eager
>Curiosity Slothrop does in the grip of Obsession... (sorry
>couldn't resist it).
>
>  Thus I
> >would I have to rephrase my previously expressed contention as
>follow: In
> >reading _Gravity's Rainbow_ I do not  find myself really
>BELIEVING very
> >firmly in the PAIN that is purportedly taking place. And the way
>I KNOW I
> >do not believe in the pain is that I never find myself WANTING
>IT TO STOP.
>
>
>Yes!  I think the confusion and the pain that goes with that is
>more affecting in GR than the instances where pain and
>degradation is actually described, the bits where you could stand
>back and think "well I wouldn't want to be there" - be Gottfried
>or Katje in Blicero's house in Duindigt, for instance.  You don't
>want it to stop because they don't want it to stop, or at least
>they're not sure.  The only person I can think of who is
>unequivocally in pain and wants out of it is Roger Mexico -
>because he's "boyish", innocent, I can't remember the exact
>description in those terms: he hasn't bought into the War or had
>it buy into him, so, fool, he's still childish enough to feel
>pain absolutely.
>The others - Katje, Slothrop, Gottfried, are much too opaque to
>accept empathy as Roger would - they're so compromised (this
>isn't a judgment from outside: they're compromised and they know
>it, or perhaps they're compromised because they know it, or
>perhaps merely suspecting it is enough - maybe nothing was DONE
>to Slothrop, maybe all They had to do was to introduce him to the
>suspicion that something may have been DONE to him) that they
>can't even feel pain wholeheartedly.
>- Maybe it isn't pain, maybe I like it, maybe it's all I'm going
>to get, maybe my categories of pain and pleasure have been
>subverted, secretly in the past or imperceptibly more recently,
>maybe the notion of authentic pleasure and pain that is truly
>mine is an empty notion by now, if that's a possibility then I'm
>not going to identify myself too closely as this person in pain.
>I find this much more painful to read about than the pain
>itself - as you say, you don't believe in the pain, but it's
>still there.  Your morality of trying to prevent pain can do
>absolutely nothing in this situation, without being rebuffed -
>like Dixon (M&D SPOIL again) goodheartedly hurting Mason by
>accident, again and again.  There's very little room for Dixon's
>kindness because Mason is never sure either why he's miserable,
>whether he's miserable, what Rebekah has to do with it.
>Empathising with these characters, wanting their pain to stop,
>would be to be a blundering, ignorant, tactless sentimentalist,
>foolish and naive enough to believe that the "ache in the skin"
>can penetrate at all into a realm you know nothing of and can
>never understand fully - if they still don't know whether they're
>in pain, who the hell do you the reader think you are offering
>sympathy?
>
>"He is suddenly, dodderer and ass, taken by an ache in his
>skin, a simple love for them both that asks nothing but
>their safety, and that he'll always manage to describe as
>something else--"concern," you know, "fondness...."  (thank you
>Terrance for this quote)
>
>which feels shameful to Prentice, an emotion that has no place -
>and to the reader as well.  Am I getting ahead of the GRGR, or
>have we got to Prentice reaching his destination, with the taffy
>and the endless corridors? - all about exactly this among other
>things IMO, and truly horrible.
>
>just my reading...or rather memory of reading - just bought copy
>no.8, keep on lending them out and never get them back.  No
>Return.
>
>
>
>
>seb
>

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