Somewhat NP Argentinians bound for Germany

[Dave Monroe]

...well, will hopefully have more time to respond to this tonight, and maybe by
that time Doug, among others, will have chimed in as well, but, then again, maybe
by that time this place (the List, that is) will be a big smoking hole, so ... but
had no intention of agitating what appears now to me to be a longstanding
antagonism of some sort.  Was just, and perhaps still am, confused by the
discussion at hand.  Not necessarily trying to "prove" anything, much less, well,
take sides, but I do think the whole little Argentinian sub thing IS largely a
spoof on what may or may not have any particularly strong historical, factual
bassi, but which is nonetheless a recognizable motif, esp. ca. the time of The Boys
from Brazil et al. (and has anyone read George Steiner's The Portage to San
Cristobal of A.H.?  Recently republished by the U of Chicago Press, might well be
of interest to any and all here), although many interesting historical sidelights
in re: Argentinian anarchism et al. were raised which are no doubt being played on
there.  Not yet qualified to make any pronouncements on actual number of Nazis fled
to South America and what mode of conveyance they fled in, but ... but one can't
discount a Nazi reference there, as it IS a Nazi reference.  And the collusion of
elements of, say, the Catholic Church (and, before anyone starts in on THAT, no, no
anti-Catholic, I, indeed, apres M & D, considering becoming a Jesuit for the free
education) with the Nazis, before, during and after the war, is well-documented
(see, recently, John Cornwell, Hitler's Pope, though, and perhaps Cornwell's
intnetions, it's not nearly as damning as that title makes out).  not exactly
"hysterical" history.  I can perhaps see your point, given your (out-of-context)
quotes (which, however, by definition, are always already out-of-context ...) about
Doug's rhetoric (which I do NOT necessarily equate with "demagoguery" or somesuch,
either of you, so please don't take that negatively) implying a certain something
there, but taht is precisely what I'm attempting to determine, what IS being
implied, what IS at issue here, again, what ARE you two arguing about? "Who's
arguing?"  Well, again, you and Doug, and, now, me, it appears, so ... but calling
something "narrow-minded" isn't a complaint, but, rather, a (presumably,
rhetorically, at any rate) neutral "observation"?  Er ... "just semantics"--well,
there's no such thing as "just" or "mere" or "only" or whatever semantics in my
book, indeed, my initial confusion, which has not been cleared up here, stemmed
precisely from your reversal there, the problematic indeed ennobling a "fleeing
fascist collaborator" or whatever with a "displaced person" (can't help but hearing
flannery O'Connor there ...) being taken as implying one--maybe, say, Doug--can,
or, at any rate, one will reverse the process--which is not so much a matter of
algebra as set theory here, not an equation but a matter of sets, subsets--and
claim that a "displaced person" is also a "fleeing fascist."  Still not clear on
what you were implying there.  But i do think I'd accord, Pynchon accords, the
Holocaust greater weight, greater gravity, perhaps, than you do.  The novel IS set
in the European theater, esp. Germany, for starters, Concentration camp labor did
have a little somthing to do with those V-2s, and so forth ... but Gravity's
Rainbow does NOT condemn Von Braun et al.?  Or the American exploitation thereof?
Von Braun did indeed go to America, albeit overland, to Disneyland, even, and
Gravity's Rainbow indeed traces his trajectory, check, for example, those first and
last pages ... and "context" vs. "conscious"?  Large, impersonal forces vs. say,
individual, or even corporate will? ... but I have neither a "bandwagon" nor am I
"clamoring" for anyone's "blood" ... but thanks for the references, it's been a
long time since I've spent some quality time with the Pynchonian oeuvre and its
attendant critical apparatus ...

jbor wrote:

> [Humongous block of quoted text trimmed due to excessive length - Ed]