Somewhat NP Argentinians bound for Germany

[Dave Monroe]

... but, jeez, rereading the damn thing, I cannot stress how pertinent to much
recent ... discussion Dale Carter's The Final Frontier: The Rise and Fall of teh
American Rocket State (New York and London: Verso, 1988) is.  Out of print, but,
just as I was worried that my copy would fall apart, I found a few remaindered
copies for $4.98 at Barnes and Noble (which I am loathe to shop at, but, well, one
does find a little something every so often).  My copies have already been
allocated, but I do see 'em at used bookstores not infrequently as well, meaning,
you can find 'em.  I imagine any decent (and/or indecent) university library would
have a copy, maybe even yr public library.  Pynchon, politics, the V-2, NASA, the
"Oven State" (I mean, really, all that talk of ovens, of the Oven, that's not a
Holocaust reference?  e.g., GR, 99, "the civil paradox of this their Little State,
whose base is the same oven which much destroy it") to the "Rocket State" ("will our
new edge, our new Deathkingdom, be the Moon?" [GR, 723]) ...

jporter wrote:

> > From: Dave Monroe <monroe at mpm.edu>
> >
> > Mnetioned this elsewhere, but ... well, it wasn't necessarily a matter of
> > us--US--or the USSR (though once the feeding frenzy for Nazi scientists began,
> > the UK and France jostled for tehir place in the buffet line as well).  One
> > COULD have tried them at Nuremberg, at, in many cases, one should have.
>
> I will assume, then, that you would have tried them at Nuremberg (as an
> answer to my question- "What would you have done?") Okay, but what about the
> ones who ended up in the USSR? (And here I admit not to know much about
> those swooped up by The Soviets) Presumably, they would have continued their
> work for Stalin's missile program, if he chose not to surrender them for
> trial. Certainly, after the evaporation of H&N in his backyard, he would
> have had additional reasons, *perhaps* legitimate, at least from a strategic
> pov, for not giving the up, or any other possible advantage in ICBM
> development.
>
> In fact, as spectacularly demonstrated in the fifties, the Soviets were far
> ahead of the allies in ICBM development, inspite of Operation Paperclip, and
> the vastly superior resources of the west. The OSS cum C.I.A. were very much
> aware of The Soviet lead, from the get go. By the fifties, of course, thanks
> to Sahkarov, The Soviets had also mastered fusion.
>
> It might be beneficial to recall just how difficult the design of an
> effective ICBM turned out to be for America. Rocket science on that scale IS
> incredibly difficult. The achievement of the Nazi rocket program was every
> bit as amazing- from a purely technological standpoint- as The Manhattan
> Project, or, the less recognized advances in computer science spearheaded by
> Turing.
>
> I am not at all making the argument that Nazi rocket scientists were in any
> way good guys, or were not guilty of heinous crimes, but I do not
> necessarily accept uncritically the arguments (and linkages) made by
> Cockburn and St. Clair, although I find them interesting, if somewhat
> ideological. Besides, St. Clair dislikes _Vineland_  (Probably too subtle
> for the snob : )
>
> I am on your side, vis a vis, The Holocaust in GR, but I do think that
> Pynchon deliberately plays it down, yet, to great effect. At the time of
> publication, *The Holocaust* had not yet been properly deconstructed. It was
> a term taken for granted; "owned" by the victors of WW II. I think the
> effect of GR is to marginalize The Holocaust by making it the membrane which
> must be tranversed. GR empowers the marginalized.
>
> Since the historical time of GR (the book not The Holocaust) an equally
> interesting act of suppression-  not just literary- has come to light.
> Hitler, the Nazi hierarchy and their sociological parallels amongst the
> allies, the complexities of the cause and effects of The Holocaust, in all
> it's gruesome detail, are being, and have been under discussion, since the
> liberation of the camps.
>
> By comparison, Stalin's extermination of twenty million people has been
> given short shrift. Why? Perhaps Cockburn and St. Clair would care to
> enlighten us?
>
> jody
>
> > Instead, and despite Roosevelt's and then Truman's initial directives NOT to
> > let them off the hook for our own benefit, those Nazi rocket et al. scientists
> > (and then some--e.g., Klaus Barbie) were spirited away by the OSS (vs. (?) the
> > SS) et al. in the national (and/or corporate) interest.  Again, see John
> > Gimbel, Science, Technology, and Reparations: Exploitation and Plunder in
> > Postwar Germany, but if you want all the nasty, brutal details, see the
> > chapters on Operation Paperclip as well as on Klaus Barbie in Alexander
> > Cockburn and Jeffrey St. Clair, Whiteout: The CIA, Drugs and the Press.  These
> > past couple of days of rereading have only strengthened the case for much
> > already mentioned in re: Pynchon, GR and the Holocaust, and then some ... but,
> > again, don't rely on a "felling" of Freeman Dyson's in re: Heisenberg, Nazi,
> > collaborator, Nazi collaborator or no?  See at LEAST Powers and Walker and,
> > perhaps, Cassidy and Rose on the issue ...
> >