Offlist: Re: Weissmann/Blicero

[David Morris]

Dave (this is offlist because I'm trying to be good),

Edit thyself, please.  You are losing your audience before the first 
paragraph (YES! they exist!) has been read, and and don't think I'm alone w/ 
this (see "You Post Too Much" earlier (not from me)).

This is sort of like telling someone they need Listerine.  Necesary, but 
unpleasant.  It is related to the "does this post have a point?" question 
from M.Mackin, I think.

The other Dave

>From: Dave Monroe ... well, sorry for butting in I guess.  Familiar with 
>Brown, that
>Weisenberger gloss, vaguely recall the Wolfley essay from way back (in
>the Pearce thing?), think it's why I read Brown in the first place.  In
>re: Marcuse, think I was speaking of Thanatz at the time, his little
>speech on "a little S&M never hurt[ing] anybody" (V737; think Berube
>points out Thanatz's unwarranted privileging of S&M, "perversity" being
>"polymorphous," indeed) or whatever, which is certainly "Brownian" as
>well, but ...
>
>But, well, do think Marcuse's Eros and Civilization is worth a look
>here, esp. given HM's discussions of Orpheus, Narcissus, Prometheus, the
>likelihood of his being read alongside Brown, and do note his (as I read
>it) cautionary, Epimethean, perhaps, "1966 Political Preface" (posted
>some passages I thought relevant a while back).  Had a reason for
>Marcuse vs. Brown, in particular, at that point, but  ...
>
>If you get a chance, let me know who's been, I don't know,
>"historicizing" ("New" or otherwise) Pynchon of late, on of offlist, I'm
>not much up on the criticism, esp. over the past decade (figured this
>list would give me an incentive, some direction, some Clues).   My
>"phantom tormentors"?  Not sure what you might mean there.  Or maybe
>you're not addressing me.  Not quite sure.
>
>But do think that it's worth reading Pynchon, Gravity's Rainbow, in its
>immediate contexts, as well as the ones invoked, evoked in th' Text.
>Homosexuality, Sexuality, do think that it would have been an Issue @
>th' Time, a la War, Race, Colonialism, Science, Technology, Industry,
>Petroleum, whatever (Gender an interesting exclusion here?).  Vietnam,
>The Cold War, Civil Rights, Stonewall ...
>
>All throughout the writing of the novel, but all having reached critical
>points of politicization, public awareness, er, crisis, even.  Gravity's
>Rainbow certainly partakes of the apocalyptic, that missile, siren,
>"screaming," whatever, perhaps also one of those Apocalyptic (in the
>Biblical sense ...) trumpets heralding The End.  But in a peculiarly
>60s-70s way, despite its generally 40s (though presumably ending in the,
>in its, any rate, "present" day, in the Zhlubb "administration") setting
>...
>
>Which is hardly to say that it does so to the exclusion of its reference
>to anything from early Christianity to WWII (and then some, in either
>temporal "direction").  But there is (to say the least) much of the
>unusual here, and I guess my question is, might GRs OWN context(s)
>provide some Clues?  Think so, but ... well, jus' throwing it out for
>the consideration of th' Class, is all.   Certainly not arguing it to
>the mutual exclusion of anything else here, elsewhere.  Again, those
>"several layers" (to say the least), but am curious, what provoked
>something like GR?
>
>But here's a question (again): why must it be Blicero (and I'm assuming
>it "must" be, seeing as it is) who launches the Rocket 00000, leading to
>that apocalyptic (and I'm assuming it is, seeing as it is) end (or, at
>any rate, infinitessimal deferral thereof, just beyond that "last
>delta-t," that dash, that--)?  Seems Significant, no?  Seems Blicero's
>ultimate role in, importance to, the novel, at any rate ...
>
>Keep thinking about that kreplach story (@, hey, whaddaya know, V737
>again ...), what "secret" might be "preserve[d ...] in the weatherless
>spaces of this [...] Ethnic Joke" (and note the ethnicity involved here
>...), perhaps something along the lines of, "the ends do not justify the
>means" (or vice versa).  Let me know ...
>
>
>
>
>
>
>Terrance wrote:
>
> > Responding to Dave's post on "polymorphous perversity"
> > possible allusions to Marcuse I provided the page in
> > Weisenburger where Brown is cited as the source and Luther
> > and the Wolfey article is discussed. Dave seemed to be
> > suggesting that perhaps the Stonewall Riots were being
> > alluded to here, but again, taking a very literal stance,
> > while knowing the history of gay rights here in NYC and
> > having in the past posted on the post war cops, with fire
> > hoses, dogs, Isle in the streets, the cops beating the
> > children, the S&M allusions there, and reading the novel
> > with these things in my memory and of course with the
> > hindsight of VL, but, but, the literal stance I want to
> > maintain to discuss Weissmann/Blicero, so I won't be lumped
> > in with your phantom tormentors, I asked where is the
> > textual support for such echoes, hints, and so on.
> >
> > Here's what I posted and I stanb by this too:
> >
> > See Weisenburger's Companion page 206-07. Brown, Wolfey.
> >
> > S&M Homo sexual sodomy, impotence, sterility, white sperm &
> > black shit and TRP may have the 60s in mind, gay rights, I
> > find no evidence of that, but he certainly had a lot of
> > Western (mostly German Holy Roman history to the rise of
> > Hitler) in here, yes not just hints and suggestions, real
> > dates, names we don't have to decode, yes and lots of
> > critics, particularly in the last year or so have tried to
> > connect this to the S&M etc., Amerikkka, of the 60s radicals
> > but, a big but, like Moma Kass's ass, where is the textual
> > support?
>

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