Karma my ass! Quail, Davemarc, Kurt, and Doug

[barbara100 at jps.net]

Quail quoting Barbara:
>I'm not the pervert who linked "karmic" and "debt" together.
>Actually, I stole it from Gary Zukav. I think they go together well.
>And I stand behind my statement.  Sorry if you find it insensitive,
>but I believe America does have a karmic debt to pay.

Now why did you stop it short there?  Did you even read what came after?  I
said, "All of us do--as nations and as individuals and beings of the Earth
and Universe."  Come on now, Quail; don't pick me apart on half a thought.

Quail:
> It is this kind of thinking, which focuses solely on the ills
> perpetuated by American society, all the while ignoring the other
> numerous factors in the equation; this kind of feckless and
> irresponsible thinking which leads one to state something so
> appalling in such a *blithe* and uncaring fashion....

<Barbara's idea of a single-minded entity solely and exclusively held
<accountable to the *negative* karma  of our misdeeds

<To state that thousands of "innocent" people of *all*
> nationalities *deserved* their deaths on account of the so-called
> "sins" of America is the shittiest thing I have ever heard on this
> List.

Those are terrible things to say, Quail, considering what I said and the
point I tried to make. Did I ever say it was only America that has a debt to
pay?  Did I even insinuate it?  I don't think it, so I doubt I ever
insinuated it.  I do, however, think we have carry a greater responsibility
and portion of the debt (one would hope) more proportionate to the level of
power we hold, but that's really beside the point in my ideas of karma. Did
you read that On Karma post?  It's not your simple What Goes Around Comes
Around. That concept I think implies a more direct blame.  If I had tried to
lay blame on the victims themselves of September 11, I could understand your
objection. (And yes, Davemarc, to use your rape analogy, it would sound very
offensive.)  But I think if you understood karma, you wouldn't take such
offense to it.  I don't see there being any right or wrong about it, and
judgment doesn't register in much when I consider it.  Karma just is.  It's
consequence from the choices of years and years past.  Things
happen--whether they be good or bad--because of choices we've made in the
past. Not necessarily we as individuals--that's the key difference I think
between karma and 'what goes around comes around.'  In karma, your choices
today affect the future far more than they  affect your future. It's not
very appealing to the Western mind. Our Religion's taught us to be
self-centered--it's about seeking God's grace on the individual.  The Lord's
Blessing, Everlasting life, as an individual.  I suspect it's very hard for
the average Christian to let go of that idea, that idea of Self.  Funny too,
because Jesus seemed to have had a good grip on it. I take it back, I bet
it's hard for the average Joe of any religion to let go of that idea of
Self.  It shouldn't surprise me you'd  be averse to ideas you'd never live
to see implemented.  It's a long-term investment strategy, one not enough
are willing to invest in still. (This is what I mean, I guess, Davemarc,
when I say throwing my weight in-long-term investment strategies.)

Quail, with respect to the terrorist attack, I don't think I should just sit
passively on my ass and wait for another one. You seem to think I'm
proposing that, but that's not my intent at all.  I see a strong and painful
message in the attack, and I want to do my best to see that it doesn't
happen again in the future. I'm very much like you on that.  But it's here
where we diverge.  You propose we try to solve it with a method I think will
breed more bad karma--military action.  I really don't know anything about
Buddhism, and that stuff I posted on karma was my first official read on it
outside of Zukav (and he's hardly official about it).  But I have an innate
sense (and I bet you do too) that good  breeds good and bad breeds bad.
Dropping bombs on people breeds bad karma (look at the war that never ends).
Repressing people breeds bad karma (look at Pynchon's essay on Watts, and I
would imagine M & D to be very insightful on the bad effects of repression
too). Pollution breeds bad karma (look at our oceans and the ozone).
Meanness breeds bad karma (look at mean people's kids). Pride breeds bad
karma (look how the proud are always disappointed).  Anger breeds bad karma
(this one's more direct--re-read Barbara's 9/11 post and go check your
bloodpressure : )  I could go on and on with this, but I'd hope you get the
point.  If I believe all this stuff intuitively and statistically and
socially and scientifically-and I most certainly do-why shouldn't I believe
it commonsensically and morally?  How could I ever be persuaded that
dropping bombs on Afghanistan or stockpiling weapons of mass destruction is
ever gonna create peace?  Sure it can subdue and repress--and it does seem
to be very effective in that respect--but it never creates *lasting* peace.
The War that never ends--it ends for a while, but it always seems to pop
back up somewhere.  Don't you think we have some lessons to learn about why
it keeps popping back up?  You, me, our nation, our world, our whole
fucked-up human race?  Don't you think Pynchon's trying to point out  a lot
of these 'lessons that never get learned' in his fiction?  I really don't
think it's just my Subjectivity talking.

Kurt, what did that monk really have to say?  Are you sure you weren't
interpreting his Holocaust remark through Western 'cause and effect'
filters?  I see now, from right here on the P-List, some important concepts
can get lost or muddled in the translation from East to West.  I think I
could accept the German Buddhist's remark even as you state it, though.  He
said "the karmic debt of the Jews," but did you make a line of distinction
where maybe he didn't? Could he have meant that because the Jews are a part
of this world, this system, and their forebearers ran a show of force and
destruction (like virtually every other people on the planet) they should
expect (as we should all expect) ugly repercussions somewhere down the line?
I doubt the monk would cite some specific blame to the Jewish people.  That,
I'd guess, is what a Western mind would try to cite.  (Is this what Pynchon
is on to in his Reader's obsession with Cause and Effect, I wonder...) The
holocaust is a karmic debt. How could it be anything else? All bad things
that happen are a karmic debt.  And all good things that happen--well, I'm
not sure what those are called.  But either way, good or bad or whatever you
wanna call it, there's no escape from an effect. What we do matters--End of
concept!  How it matters, and whether it matters good or matters bad, that's
for us to learn--as individuals and as nations and beings of the Earth and
Universe. The holocaust happened.  Bad things like it continue to happen.
Every day, every hour, on every level of life, bad shit happens. Good things
happen too, of course, but they're not weighing heavy enough as far as I'm
concerned. (Davemarc, another example of throwing in my weight).   On the
level I'm talking about here, we pay our karmic debt over and over again in
Death. Two-hundred million in the last century alone killed pre-maturely in
the course of War!  And we will continue to pay (disproportionately, no
doubt,  "justly" and "unjustly" alike) until we STOP inflicting misery on
one another. It's an amazingly simple concept if you think about it.  I'm
amazed that people have such a hard time with it?

Doug, thank you for your kind thoughts and words; and thank you for your
VLVL posts. I'm not quite far enough along to know what all you were talking
about, but you make me want to hurry up and read it. So I'll go now, to find
karma in Vineland!  Thank you too for the weather report. That was so
touching.
And you were right.  We got soaked yesterday at the soccer game.


Barbara



----- Original Message -----
From: The Great Quail <quail at libyrinth.com>
To: <pynchon-l at waste.org>
Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2001 1:59 PM
Subject: Karma my ass!