Response to Thomas and Kurt

[Paul Mackin]

Thomas--what ya gotta understand is, what comes around goes around, and
around, and around, and around, and it comes out here . . . .

The music goes round and round
And it makes the darndest sound
Oh, Oh, Oh, Oh, Oh, Oh
And it comes out here

		P.

On Fri, 7 Dec 2001, barbara100 at jps.net wrote:

> Thomas wrote:
> "And that everybody in the world who is "part of this world, this system" should just accept being killed because there is always a karmic debt to be paid?"
>
> No, Thomas, I think what I'm saying with respect to karma is that we have every right to expect these kinds of killings so long as we continue to partake in them. Does that mean because I don't personally take part I shouldn't expect them inflicted on me? No. Don't I wish. That would imply that sense of fairness many of you seem to think I find in all of this. I just think the fewer people, the fewer countries, the fewer powerful countries we have participating in violence around the world, the less we'll see horrors like the holocaust. Assign whatever cause & effect or blame you want, I just know in my heart we'll never get out of these vicious cycles of death until we STOP killing people.  Jews really aren't the point in my mind. They were 6 in over 200 million last century, and I don't see them as different from any other group around the world.  I feel like you (and Kurt) are forcing me into some boxed mode of thinking where I might draw up lines of karmic debt according!
>  to race, sex, religion, and national origin.  I'll leave that for Man and the Almighty (read all the sarcasm into that you can stomach).  I don't know how the German monk felt about it, Kurt, but the flippant way you dismissed karma made me think you didn't either.  That's the only reason I brought up the Jews. (That and because it was the only example you provided for your "bullshit" theory.)  I didn't mean to assign them any particular blame, no more blame in fact than I assign myself. And should that suitcase bomb go off near me one day, I'll try my hardest not to cry "No Fair!" because for all the dirty games we been playing, and lessons we been ignoring, I can't help but see a Cosmic kind of fairness in it.   It's the toughest pill I'll ever have to swallow, but it's the only honest remedy I've found.  So as a member of the species, as a being on this planet--and this was the point I was trying to make with the Jews--I think I have no choice but to accept a certain res!
> ponsibility for the horrors inflicted on mankind.
>
> Thomas wrote:  "Starving children? The Afghan people? Rape, torture, murder are ok because everybody is guilty, if not individually then because of what his/her forbearers have done? I know I am getting a little sarcastic here, but would you care to explain?"
>
> Does that mean, Thomas, I think we should just throw our hands up in the air and cry, "We can't help"…"there's never been anything we could do"?  No! I'll leave that for the  "sleeping sheep."  I'm awake enough and humble enough to accept my measly little bit of power and not contribute one watt, not one flicker of support to my collective demise. At least I can do that.  And if I don't do at least that, how could ever expect the human race to save itself? (Talk about critical thinking!) Is it enough?  Not yet, but one day…maybe.
> Now it seems too many of us want power and assurance and instant results--Fuck Karma, fuck my measly 60 watts, I want the power of the whole goddamned Grid! So, God damned it will be for the time being, and we'll all just have to take our random chances at suffering. Even we megawatt Americans now.  The best I can guess is they're all still holding out for Quail's Almighty to come down and grab them up by the scruff of the neck and shake some sense into them like the great Daddy in the sky.  It's funny, too, because we know exactly what He would say.  Like all good fathers say to their unruly sons, "Stop it before somebody gets hurt! And be nice to your brothers!"
>
> You say Karma lacks critical thinking, Kurt?  That bothers me.  Not that you said it, but the ideas behind it.  I've been thinking for a few days, and I'm beginning to wonder if it's just so obviously critical you don't recognize it.  When I think about Karma, I think about cause and effect in every aspect of life.  Like my smiling at passer-bys on the street and being nice to my kid because in the back of my mind I know the "kinder & gentler" one's environment, the kinder and gentler the person.  That doesn't lack critical thought--I learned it in Psychology and Sociology class. How about the karmic consequences of anger?  Fist holes in the walls, popped veins in the forehead, pissed off wives with bloody lips and high-priced lawyers, kids who hate you who breed kids who hate them, high blood pressure, heart attacks, premature death--it's all in the books--medical books, psychology books, law books, sociology books.  It all sounds highly critical to me.  How about the karmi!
> c consequences of sloth and greed?  I don't know what Germany's like, but come to America and see all us fat couch potato television drones in debt up to our ears still buying whatever the subliminal waves tell us to. And what's that creating? I shouldn't have to tell you--ever widening gaps between the rich and poor, big business corrupting our government and polluting the Earth, not to mention the poor health of our minds and bodies.  And how about dropping bombs on Afghanistan?  You think we're gonna escape the bad karma of that?  Shit, I'm feeling the effects of it already.  Forget the starving refugees haunting my warm sleep and hearty meals, our Homeland Security czar was on the TV just yesterday telling us to be on alert for more terror. Do we really have to ask why they hate us so?  Aw, yes, more vicious cycling.  Say whatever "shit" you will about Karma, but you'll never convince me it lacks critical thinking.
>
> Barbara
>
> Original Message:  -----------------
> From: Thomas Eckhardt thomas.eckhardt at uni-bonn.de
> Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2001 13:24:41 +0000
> To: barbara100 at jps.net, pynchon-l at waste.org
> Subject: Re: Karma my ass! Quail, Davemarc, Kurt, and Doug
>
> Barbara wrote:
> "I think I could accept the German Buddhist's remark even as you state it,   though.  He   said "the karmic debt of the Jews," but did you make a line of distinction   where maybe he didn't? Could he have meant that because the Jews are a  part   of this world, this system, and their forebearers ran a show of force and   destruction (like virtually every other people on the planet) they should   expect (as we should all expect) ugly repercussions somewhere down the  line?   I doubt the monk would cite some specific blame to the Jewish people.  That, I'd guess, is what a Western mind would try to cite.  (Is this what Pynchon   is on to in his Reader's obsession with Cause and Effect, I wonder...) The   holocaust is a karmic debt. How could it be anything else? All bad things   that happen are a karmic debt."
>
> Dear Barbara,
> Are you saying the Jewish people, to use that term, just paid their debts during the Holocaust? And that everybody in the world who is "part of this world, this system" should just accept being killed because there is always a karmic debt to be paid? What exactly do you mean by "part of this world, this system"? Everybody on the planet? Is this about original sin? And are you saying that somebody else who might have the means to stop the killing should accept mass murder as a payment of the "karmic debt" as well instead of taking military action? If so: This is indeed very close to Ghandi's view of the Holocaust, which I referred to a few weeks ago. And, with all due respect, it is as idiotic.
> Thomas
> P.S. If some German called the Holocaust "an ugly repercussion somewhere down the line" of bad things forbearers of the adherents of the Jewish faith had done in the course of history this would be the end of the discussion and of any  friendly relationship that might have existed before. I am willing to give you the benefit of the doubt, if only because I perhaps don't really understand  what you are saying, much less the ideas behind it, but generally I find your  statement outrageous.
> P.P.S. "All bad things that happen are a karmic debt." Starving children?  The Afghan people? Rape, torture, murder are ok because everybody is guilty, if not individually then because of what his/her forbearers have done? I know I am getting a little sarcastic here, but would you care to explain?
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
> mail2web - Check your email from the web at
> http://mail2web.com/ .
>
>