Thomas 2

[barbara100 at jps.net]

Yes, yes, Thomas, we're all paying--the Afghans, the Jews, the Americans. I'm trying really hard to think outside the ethnic and national box here, but you keep dragging me back in, asking me again and again to "specify."  So, I'll tell you again, In my mind, there are no payment lines to be drawn up, I make no distinctions between the peoples of the Earth, and I can almost guarantee whatever karmic consequences we "suffer" (you like that word better than debt payment?) it won't be fair in yours and my sense of the word.
 
To answer some of your specifics, the "we" are the people of the Earth, and we "participate" by being alive here and now. I should think profit from the global economy would have very little to do with it.  In fact, most of the people who "suffer" at the hands of say America don't profit much from anything.  We pick on the poor; you know that.    
 
>What you seem to say is that if somebody sets out to murder a few million >people it is more ethical to let this happen instead of attempting to stop >the ongoing genocide by any means necessary. Is that what you're saying? If >so, I beg to differ.
 
I never said any such thing, and I don't know how do you arrived at such a conclusion.  I'm witnessing the slow killing of perhaps millions of Afghans right now, and you never hear me saying anything like it's ethical to let this happen.  

>Well, if it is not a matter of "race, sex, religion, and national origin", >why don't you tell the Afghans whose relatives were killed by US-American >bombs that there is a "karmic debt" they have to pay?
 
Maybe the Afghans are paying America's karmic debt...ever think of that? Or maybe Karma rotates in an south-easterly direction and Afghanistan is picking up Germany's portion this century.  Is that what you wanna hear?  I told you it isn't fair. And it's not really something I can make good sense of--sense enough to satisfy you (or Kurt)--but I won't let that deter me from my intuition that says violence and aggression and Man's corrupted need of power will never bring about the goodness I wish on the world. 
 
> Due to the fact that you used the word "debt".

I'm not the only one who used it.  I showed you Gary Zukav used it; we know at least one German Buddhist monk said it; and now I see Pynchon himself writes it on page 163 of Vineland, when Sister Rochelle sentences DL to a year and a day as Takeshi's sidekick, to "try and balance [her] karmic account by working off the great wrong [she] ha[d] done him..."  
 
And isn't that something!  Like anti-revenge.  I bet that's a concept that fucks with a lot of people's minds, eh?  A positive to atone for a negative, instead of the traditional 'eye for an eye.'  And it's not just the pacifist turning the other cheek, either; no, it's a cooler and subtler shade of gray in which we actually DO something.  And I guess that means, Thomas, we don't just have to sit around and wait around for the bad shit to happen, we can start working against it now. Yes, I find that idea very exciting.  Forget blame, just take it from here--make amends instead of revenge.  Imagine how the world could flourish now if America had to work off her Karmic debt!  And Germany, huh, Thomas?  Yes, yes, that really would be something! 
 
So you think I contradict myself.  Because I pick on America? 9/11?  It's conceivable, but you'll have to be more specific if you want me to cop to it; I don't quite see it the way you've said it.  Perhaps I have been nursing my resentments a little too, though.  But it's difficult living in a country that has so much to offer, but consistently acts selfishly and brutally.  I want to move past blame, honest I do, but it seems in order to get anybody's attention, to get our people and our leaders and decision makers to look, to change, we have to keep dredging it up the past. 

>Yes, but perhaps He should have told Atta as well.

What's this suppose to mean anyway?  I can just see you--your father's yelling at you to STOP banging your little brother's head against the ground, and you scream back in defense, "He started it!"



  
----- Original Message ----- 
From: Thomas Eckhardt <thomas.eckhardt at uni-bonn.de>
To: <barbara100 at jps.net>
Cc: <pynchon-l at waste.org>
Sent: Sunday, December 09, 2001 10:54 AM
Subject: Re: Response to Thomas and Kurt

> Barbara wrote:
> 
> > I think what I'm saying with respect to karma is that we have every right to expect these kinds of killings so long as we continue to partake in them.
> 
> This is very general. Who is "we"? And how do "we" partake? I assume you mean that everybody who profits from the state of the global economy may be seen as guilty? If so, yes, certainly, but don't you see a significant difference between, say, the president of the United Fruit Company and yourself as far as actions, their consequences and thus the question of guilt are concerned? And the possibility of a sudden violent death is part of the human condition, no?
> 
> > Does that mean because I don't personally take part I shouldn't expect them inflicted on me? No. Don't I wish.
> 
> Don't know whether I understand this correctly. Does that mean that one should expect to be killed by an airplane crashing into one's office as part of the human condition or as part of the risk inherent in profiting from world economy as a citizen of a comparatively rich industrialized country? Are you speaking from a philosophical POV or from a political POV here? It is a question I ask myself with regard to your whole statement, because to me it seems to be a rather uneasy and contradictory mixture of both POVs.
> 
> > That would imply that sense of fairness many of you seem to think I find in all of this.
> 
> Due to the fact that you used the word "debt".
> 
> > I just think the fewer people, the fewer countries, the fewer powerful countries we have
> > participating in violence around the world, the less we'll see horrors like the holocaust.
> 
> Obviously. If nobody participates in violence, there is no violence.
> 
> > Assign whatever cause & effect or blame you want, I just know in my heart we'll never
> > get out of these vicious cycles of death until we STOP killing people.
> 
> You assigned cause & effect and blame by using the phrase "karmic debt". As for stopping the killing of people, let me use the obvious example: What you seem to say is that if somebody sets out to murder a few million people it is more ethical to let this happen instead of attempting to stop the ongoing genocide by any means necessary. Is that what you're saying? If so, I beg to differ.
> 
> > Jews really aren't the point in my mind. They were 6 in over 200 million last century, and I
> > don't see them as different from any other group around the world.  I feel like you (and
> > Kurt) are forcing me into some boxed mode of thinking where I might draw up lines of
> > karmic debt according to race, sex, religion, and national origin.
> 
> Well, if it is not a matter of "race, sex, religion, and national origin", why don't you tell the Afghans whose relatives were killed by US-American bombs that there is a "karmic debt" they have to pay? This is a serious question.
> 
> > The best I can guess is they're all still holding out for Quail's Almighty to come down and grab them up by the scruff of the neck and shake some sense into them like the great Daddy in the sky.  It's funny, too, because we know exactly what He would say.  Like all good fathers say to their unruly sons, "Stop it before somebody gets hurt! And be nice to your brothers!"
> 
> Yes, but perhaps He should have told Atta as well.
> 
> > I don't know what Germany's like, but come to America and see all us fat couch potato television drones in debt up to our ears still buying whatever the subliminal waves tell us to. And what's that creating? I shouldn't have to tell you--ever widening gaps between the rich and poor, big business corrupting our government and polluting the Earth, not to mention the poor health of our minds and bodies.  And how about dropping bombs on Afghanistan?
> 
> I agree with the political argument here. But now you go from lofty philosophical or even religious musings to politics in no time.
> 
> > You think we're gonna escape the bad karma of that?
> 
> You think the Afghans thought they could escape the bad karma of Bin Laden's actions created?  I keep coming back to this because I think it shows how contradictory your statements on karma and "cosmic balance" are. These are philosophical or religious concepts which as such would be applicable to every human being. You picked the September 11 attack as an example for a restoration of the cosmic balance. You did not pick, say, the US-bombings of Vietnam or Afghanistan. So let me ask you again: Were the Afghan civilians killed by US bombs paying a karmic debt as well? If not, we can ditch that whole karmic thing and talk politics, economy etc.
> 
> Thomas
>


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