peated point of contention here ...

[Dave Monroe]

Again, keep in mind with whom you are arguing here
(me, I'm presuming, as you cite me below).  If Doug
ever used the word "central," as in "The Holocaust is
'central' to GR" or somesuch, I certainly didn't, and
not in the least because of my delicate
deconstructionist decentering sensibilities.  One
might then ask (perhaps of Doug?) what constitutes
"centrality" here ...

Though I can't recall that Doug has made any stronger
case than I have about "the Holocaust in Gravity's
Rainbow" or whatever, so perhaps what is being taken
exception to is that one word.  Which, again, I
haven't used.  Nor have I accused anyone of "Holocaust
denial" here.  "Anxiety" (over seemingly any mention
thereof), yes, "denial," no ...

In the meantime, to repost a little something of mine
from the archives ...

Again, a concentration camp is a concentration camp,
Nazi atrocities are Nazi atrocities, but, from Michael
Neufeld's "Introduction" to Yves Beon's Planet Dora: A
Memoir of the Holocaust and the Birth of the Space
Age, on Dora, "The Third Phase: November 1944 to April
1945," by November 1st, Dora having been separated
from Buchenwald to "become the center of Concentration
Camp Mittelbau," of the total Mittelbau population of
32,471 prisoners, 472 were specifically Jewish, and,
specifically, Hungarian Jews.  "The first Jews had
come in May from the Nazis' mass deportation program
in Hungary.... In typical SS fashion, most Jews in
Mittelbau ended up with the absolute worst jobs, but
some did labor in Mittelwerk production." In December
1944, prisoners from Auschwitz and other camps were
evacuated there as well.  And more than just Jewish
prisoners were mistreated, tortured, more than just
Jewish prisonsers died from mistreatment, torture,
punitive execution.  1090 deaths listed in Dora alone
from Dec. 24th to March 23rd (if its figues anyone's
demanding here).  Neufeld provides all sorts of info
here, do consult.  Although I don't know why it was
necessarily significant that few to no Jews were
initally held in the camp.  Again, this all fell under
the Nazis, under the Holocaust ...

http://waste.org/mail/?list=pynchon-l&month=0008&msg=342&sort=date

No, I don't want to drag this out again, either, esp.
as I would much like to get around to that "Epilogue"
to V., and a little housecleaning on the rest of the
novel, but there are things I feel obligated to
address ...

--- lorentzen-nicklaus
<lorentzen-nicklaus at t-online.de> wrote:
> 
> 
> Dave Monroe schrieb:
> 
> > > BUT THAT WAS NOT THE ISSUE.)
> 
> > Okay, but you seem to keep insisting on a
> distinction
> > qhich, questionable at best before the
> intriduction of
> > Jewsih prisoners at Dora, pretty much breaks down
> > thereafter.  But my contention is that we need not
> > even get so far in our hairsplitting here ... 
> 
> 
>   yes yes, that's how it always goes ... the moment
> we get a little deeper into 
>   the issue, some people immediately scream
> "hairsplitting!" ... raul hilberg, 
>   perhaps the guy who knows most about the
> holocaust, he does  n o t  mention 
>   dora mittelbau or peenemünde in his book
> "perpetrators, victims, bystanders. 
>   the jewish catastrophy 1933-1945", nyc 1992:
> harpercollins (the german edition 
>   was published the same year at the s. fischer
> verlag in ffm). dora was a labor 
>   camp, not - like auschwitz or treblinka - a death
> camp. to say so does not at 
>   all imply any kind of holocaust denial. &
> extinction through work is, in human 
>   history, the rule, not the exception. these days,
> just read about it in the 
>   paper yesterday, there are about 40 000 000 slaves
> in the world. 
>   sweatshop-slaves, sex-slaves, household-slaves ...
> your argument that the 
>   mentioning of jewish dora prisoners makes the
> distinction between labor camps 
>   and death camps irrelavant, i do not understand at
> all. 
> 
>   if the holocaust is  s o  central to gr, why isn't
> there, say, an auschwitz   
>   scene with, say, weissmann fucking a jewish boy
> into his ass?

This last bit, however, I'll leave linger ...


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