NP PRC-related

[calbert at tiac.net]

> 
> calbert:
> In spite of the wide variety of socio/economic 
> structures extant, you would simply fudge them all as "capitalist" to
> further your argument
> 
> Doug:
> Just curious, but besides the market-based capitalist systemm (as
> influenced, to some degree, by international organizations and
> governments), which economic systems currently govern global trade? 

The ones who choose to engage in it....others, unwilling to observe 
the minimum qualification requirements, form "non"- aligned 
pacts.....their impact is a direct consequence of the success of their 
respective models.........specifically, minimal.....
> calbert:
> STOP RIGHT THERE....Now cite me two instances of such "national 
> atrocities" which even begin to compare to the "engineered" famines in
> the USSR and the PRC in the past century.......You are currently down
> about 40 million victims - GO!
> 
> Doug:
> I don't have statistics handy, but I expect that the number of people
> killed in 20th century (and ongoing) wars that made weapons merchants
> (capitalists, each and every one, including the not U.S. companies in
> that arena) rich would add up to some multiple of 40 million.

you might want to peek at those numbers. YOu will be surprised at 
how those two man made disasters stack up very favorably with all 
wars in the 20th cent......what does that tell you? ANd though such 
wars have made "weapons merchants rich", I believe that for the 
most part, those wars had political rather than economic origins......


 So we
> see that to the degree that U.S. based corporations influence U.S.
> foreign policymakers who start or escalate or continue wars,
> U.S.-based capitalists (shareholders, corporate executives, Boards of
> Directors) and the U.S. government help to engineer atrocities on a
> huge scale. 

We "see" nothing of the sort. You were asked to be specific, and we 
have not seen any data, just more rhetoric......but I won't deny that 
arms peddlers do their damndest to "instigate" business, but they 
cannot do it without their political handmaidens.....


 Not to mention the mass extermination of species other
> than human and other acts of environmental despoilation. 

WIth the exception of some of the Five Tigers, can you cite any 
western environmental despoliation which compares to the anthrax 
outbreak in Sverdlovsk, or perhaps the cess pools of Poland and 
East Germany? I can only think of Bhopal......and that is an 
exceptional event.....the next worse is probably Sevessi (sp), Italy, 
which endured, and survived a dioxin storm.......


That the
> average U.S. citizen doesn't know much about this can be attributed to
> the fact that most people get most of their news and information from
> the mass media, which generally omit, or downplay, or mask, or
> otherwise distort and blur the U.S. corporate role in such atrocities,


actually, greed drives them to report such in great detail, whenever 
possible....

> when they make room for it in the first place among the menu of vulgar
> inanities that it serves up 24/7; Noam Chomsky is a good source to
> understand how it happens, a strong correctio to the fiction of the
> U.S. "free press."

I'll second the "menu of vulgar inanities" - I just don't watch the cr*p.
Noam, however, can blow hot and cold. Glad he is there 
though....btw, is the press any "free-er" anywhere else, and if not, 
what political systems provide the greatest variety of other sources?

> calbert:
> Don't go to China - they'll beat your dog to death in 
> front of you (pet ownership is tres bourge, of course, and the 
> "system" can't generate DOG FOOD).....
> 
> Doug:
> Having been in China recently, I can assure you that there is a boom
> in pet ownership (dogs and cats, mostly; many people keep birds) in
> cities large and small. They manage to feed their pets, too.  (It's
> also true that some Chinese people eat dogs, as people do in other
> parts of the world.) 

Is it not true, that for a period of time in the 90's pet ownership was 
indeed FORBIDDEN? I recall seeing a story in the Times which 
included a picture of a pet patrol. The story reported that these 
patrols enjoyed the impunity to kill dogs on sight, and included the 
testimony of bereaved former pet owners......


The only place I've been recently where this sort
> of thing happened to a dog is San Jose, California, where a
> road-raging asshole pulled a poodle out of a lady driver's arms and
> threw the pooch into oncoming freeway traffic, not too many months
> ago, a story that made headlines just about everywhere; they should be
> ready to crucify the guy just about any day now, although I haven't
> been following the trial story very closely.

And you take nothing from the fact that citizens and media are 
outraged at such behavior? I'd say that it speaks relatively well for 
the people of such a nation when they refuse to countenance acts 
of cruelty against animals.....

> The fact that other countries exploit and make their citizens suffer
> is no excuse for the U.S. (or individuals or companies in the U.S.) to
> do the same, or to perpetuate the suffering of those victims --

no, it is the responsibility of the US to great lengths to extend the 
privileges of "freedom" to the citizens of ALL nations. Companies 
which profit from human misery should be identified and shunned....

> because slave traders were willing to sell slaves is no excuse for
> individuals and companies to buy them and continue their enslavement
> and profit from it, 

no, but it sure mitigates against the notion that slavery existed ONLY 
because of capitalism......and serves as confirmation that the 
readiness to exploit is universal....


to pick an example that Pynchon makes a rather
> important element of M&D. The human organ trafficking from China
> (discussed in the Voice article I referenced) is made possible because
> of the executions in that country (I'd like to see some statistics
> that compare the Chinese rate of executions to the U.S., and I'd
> expect the PRC to be one of the few places to exceed the rate at which
> the U.S. judicial system kills people), that's true.

Try "by orders of magnitude".......

 But poor,
> desperate people in other countries are motivated to sell their own
> organs (the Voice article mentioned India as a large source) in the
> absence of a punitive and murderous judicial and penal system --
> that's the miracle of capitalism after all, a system that manages to
> tap into humanity's worst impulses and deepest needs.  That's what
> Pynchon's talking about, I think, when he talks about the branch
> office in each person's brain. 

How about sparing some of that outrage for those who perpetuate a 
system (politcal, economic or even religious) which generates such 
dire poverty without providing ANY other alternatives to those in 
need? This market would shut down tomorrow if politicians in 
developed nations enforced laws requiring provenance for such 
organs - but are you willing to look an aggreived parent in the eye 
and tell them they cannot buy that Indian kidney for their dying child?
DO you want to tell the Indian that he/she should watch his/her 
children starve rather than sell the only marketable asset he/she 
possesses?

I'd sooner tell them to quit coddling their cows and rats, never mind 
what Krishna says about them....


love,
cfa