radical goals (was Warlock and loss)

[Mike Weaver]

> > "Failure to what? To achieve the goals set? To reach the New Jerusalem?
>How would you measure success? Achieving a stable harmonious society? Bit
>utopian, isn't that?"
>
>It is. On the other hand, though, what's the point of a "movement" without 
>goals? Do you favour action for action's sake? That's too pessimistic: it 
>implies nothing can be done, so you just let off some steam and move on. 
>That, I think is the problem with "radicalists" and "leftists" nowadays: 
>they have no alternative to propose.

There is a world of difference between realizable goals and no goals. There 
are two questions I think worth posing in this situation.
What are the minimum achievements that a revolution needs reach for you to 
consider it a success?
Are you prepared to be the enemy?

The first answer is a preventative against utopian extremism and the second 
a recognition that any revolution has to be consolidated - think punctuated 
equilibrium - and any of your allies wanting to go further will then become 
an enemy and see you as an oppressor.

>every "new" system is organized in basically the same way as the one it 
>replaces. There seems to be no inspiration that would lead to a completely 
>different path.

So capitalism is basically the same as feudalism? Socialism the same as 
capitalism. I think not.
I've resisted challenging various comments on Cuba in this discussion, 
which I know from my time there to be completely wrongheaded. The following 
I think is worth telling.
  Last year there was a young Californian woman visiting the urban 
gardening scene in Havana which I'm involved with. She referred to Cuba as 
the Twilight Zone - cue strange music and a voice over "Things here are not 
what they seem..."
Most people, myself included, arriving in Cuba first time from the 
capitalist world try to base their understanding of the place on their 
home-grown assumptions of how a society works. However the longer one stays 
there the more one realises that most Cubans are operating on a completely 
different set of assumptions and expectations and that it really is a 
different system. Sure we all share the same
human aspects and attributes but the social setting is very different and 
so the path they are following, and attempting to preserve, is 
substantially different.

Hasta luego:
Miguelito