A few replies -- Doug, Barabara, jbor, Richard

[The Great Quail]

Barbara writes,

>I see, that was then and this is now.

Well, not exactly. I think you are being reductionist. But the causes 
of the conflicts and our military involvement  in Vietnam and the 
current so-called "War against terrorism" are, well, very different. 
Surely you can see that without anyone having to spell it out for you?

>Like Pynchon thought--WWII was WWII
>and Vietnam was Vietnam.

Huh? Where did I mention what Pynchon thought? And this may surprise 
you, but I do believe that GR was partly inspired by Vietnam, though 
not to the extent that some people here do.

Oh, and -- have you actually *read* any other Pynchon besides GR? I 
am just curious, because GR is the book you seen to use in all your 
quotations.

>Uh-uh, I see your point now. That was then, and
>this is now, no 'connections' what-so-ever!  'Yes, yes.'  I see your point
>now, Quail.

Have I been sarcastic to you? Why the attitude?

Anyway, I don't recall saying there were no connections -- though I 
am not sure what you even mean by "connections." I mean, war kills 
people, is that a connection? The fact that Doug deplores all 
military action, and that pacifists protest war -- whether WWII, 
Vietnam, the current war, whatever -- is that a connection? I mean, 
if you think war is bad, fine, protest away. But I think the two 
situations are quite different, which I think is self-evident, and 
the reasons one should have for protesting can be different. For 
instance, I would have protested Vietnam, because I think we did not 
"belong" there for numerous reasons. I will not protest this war, 
because I support military action in this situation. I was just 
trying to say that Doug uses all the rhetoric of Vietnam and applies 
it to this present situation, which tends to overlook the 
differences. Which would be fine, except for the fact he then climbs 
on his moral high horse and becomes insufferable in his attempt to 
show the rest of us why we are drooling, bloodthirsty cretins.

Bear in mind, I also wrote:

"I do agree that many protesters against Vietman were in the moral right"

"I have a minor objection in the way Doug is painting terms in black 
or white, apocalyptic narrative"

>If you insist on calling it propaganda, fine, but what have you so got so
>against it anyway?

Well, I have nothing against him posting it, as I have said, but when 
I disagree with various issues, I will articulate them, or at least 
post a counter NP link.

>You make issue with Doug, and you make issue with his
>news, but what's really at issue here?

Other than disagreeing with some "alternative" news and 
anti-globalization views? Well, as I wrote in my "open letter" and 
indicated elsewhere, I for one have an issue with Doug's hysterical 
tone, his smarmy personality, and his inquisitorial methods.

>  Jbor? Terrance? Malign? Jasper?
>Quail? David? (did I miss anybody?)  What's wrong with Doug's propaganda?  I
>know you think you're arguing till you're blue in the face too, but I find
>very little substance in any of you.

Well, that's fine, because I for one don't think that you have really 
opened your mind to anything any of us are saying against the 
pacifist stance. You may not agree with it, but to say that none of 
us has any substance, well....? That points more to a closed mind on 
a single receiver than a consistent lack of substance on behalf of 
six other various and unconnected people.

>Doug you're a propagandist; Doug you're
>a jerk; Doug you're crazy; shut up Doug; fuck off, Doug.  Where's the meat
>of your argument, fellas? What's really at the heart of the matter here? It
>can't be *all* about Doug, now can it?

I agree, a lot of the message gets distorted by occasional paroxysms 
of anti-Dougism, but most of us try to get a clear message across, 
which is that we disagree with some of the intellectual and moral 
stances being adopted by other List members. Of course, the fact that 
Doug paints this as fascism, and you occasionally disregard it 
altogether, tends to raise the stress level and lead to harsh words. 
It also doesn't help that Doug whines a lot and calls us names.

>What else besides Doug
>don't you like here? (Correction: What else besides Doug and me don't you
>like here?) (Some things are just a given.

Well, since you asked....

Personally, I find you you be almost as hysterical as Doug, given 
into wild hyperbole, morally self-serving, and very narrow-minded in 
what you will accept in terms of "the other side." I find your 
canonization of Pynchon to be limiting as well as distasteful. I 
occasionally question your ability to provide any real substance to 
your arguments, and I wonder how gullible you are to any 
non-establishment views. Needless to say, I think your worship of 
Doug is, well, I don't know, I can't put it into words. And I find 
your weird sexual metaphors to be off-putting -- not because I am a 
prude, mind you, but because they seem to point to some sort of 
sexual loathing, equating jism, oral sex, and so on to negative acts, 
and grafting political relationships onto an S&M matrix. And yes, 
Pynchon does that, but he not only does it better than you (or me, or 
anyone, probably) but he balances it with compassion and even 
understanding of the "other side."

Well, you asked. On the other hand, I think you are oddly 
fascinating, I think you have a big heart for victims and the 
oppressed, I appreciate the fact that you posted personal information 
to back up your claim (and I hope you noticed that I posted a 
retraction and admitted I was wrong) and I think that you have a 
unique view on GR that should be heard.

--Quail
-- 
+---------+---------+---------+---------+---------+---------+---------+

The Great Quail, K.S.C.
(riverrun Discordian Society, Kibroth-hattaavah Branch)

For fun with postmodern literature, New York vampires, and Fegmania,
visit Sarnath: http://www.rpg.net/quail

"The people asked, and he brought quails, and satisfied them with the
bread of heaven."
   --Psalms 105:40 (Also see Exodus 16:13 and Numbers 11:31-34 for
more starry wisdom)