Maybe Barbara *is* Doug?

[The Great Quail]

Barbara,

>I know you were mad at me and told me not to respond to any more of your
>posts,

I am not "mad" at you. I am just tired of this.

>I get the feeling from you (you being representative of a whole lot of other
>people I notice around) that you see the world in black and white.

That's interesting; because all this time I feel I have been arguing 
that choices must be made despite a world of complexity. I have been 
discussing the complexity and ambiguities in Pynchon as well. I 
believe you have a false impression of me. I do not see any 
situation, especially this one, in binary terms. I don't even think 
the military option is binary, and in fact, I am starting to think 
that the bombing has gone on too long, and it's time for the messy 
horror of more ground troops. Of course, not a lot of information is 
being given us from the field, so I may be off-base.

>We've all been so well trained to think that way.

With all due respect, I take offense at your statement. Your 
condescending tone does not sit well with me -- you accuse me of 
being, essentially, "trained" to see the world in "black and white." 
The implication is, of course, that you are the morally and 
intellectually superior individual because you have somehow elevated 
yourself from this conditioning.

>It's peace of mind, ease of thought.  "It's okay, folks, go back
>about your business; they're just 'evil' terroists; we'll get 'em for you
>(it was really  'evil' I was thinking of in relation to 'infidel').

Then maybe you should have said that; or maybe you should respond to 
my post, rather that withdraw into a morally smug attitude and 
provide me with a lecture as you slightly re-arrange your previous 
points to disregard my refutation. It's dishonest, it's nothing more 
than rhetorical sleight of hand. You said what you said, it was quite 
clear.

>You seem to be sold,
>Quail.  You prefer to call it your 'opinion' but it's the same old tired
>shit (shit as in 'caught up in the same fields of shit.')  "There's no other
>solution!"

Oh, God! Why oh why must so many of you far Lefties constantly 
believe that anyone who disagrees with you is on a lower intellectual 
plane? That if we were somehow only a bit smarter, we would see the 
true light and believe as you believe; that our "opinions" are not 
the product of thought, as yours are; but the result of 
indoctrination? It's maddening.

>Do you realize how much you sound like Pokler?

To quote another List member: Pokler was a fictional character in a 
book that's thirty years old, set seventy years in the past. And 
furthermore, I refuse to be drawn into a debate over the difference 
between complicity with Nazi Germany, with its Holocaust, Forced 
Labor, Concentration Camps, and global warfare; and the current 
situation. In my opinion, anyone who *needs* to seriously debate this 
is already absorbed in a viewpoint I cannot even give credit to. It's 
like the old phrase, "If you have to ask the question, you won't 
understand the answer."

>What unimaginative dichotomous crap!  Listen to our President, our 
>Press! Selling
>us tired old brands of corporate and political thought (colonialism
>reincarnate) dressed up in flags and Tommy Hilfiger to look like Freedom!
>Oboy! are we're selling ourselves a load of crap.

You are ranting again. And this is why I want to suspend this 
discussion. I do not think this is colonialism reincarnate. Nor do I 
equate freedom with Tommy Hilfiger. This is a tired old argument, and 
I for one am losing my patience with such statements. I would rather 
if you at least presented alternatives to military action and gave a 
full critique of the situation. Instead, you provide an emotional 
diatribe wrapped up in specious comparisons.

>Quail, you keep harping on me about solutions.  I'm sorry, I have nothing to
>give you except regurgitated Noam Chomsky and pom-poms to Doug.

Well, at least Chomsky has a few ideas of his own, unlike Doug. And 
of course, you. If you were in control of things right now, I would 
be mortally afraid. By your own admission, you have no solution! And 
you are getting increasingly vexed that I am even asking for one.

>I haven't even read very much Pynchon.

Well, thank you for that admission. Can you see, perhaps, why then it 
rankles a bit the way you use him constantly as a guide to all 
situations? (At least on the List.) And why it irritates jbor that 
you bemoan his own lack of understanding?

>There're plenty of ideas circulating
>around, across this list and across the world.  And I'm sure there are
>plenty more yet to be thought out.  I'm sorry they don't appeal to your
>sense of national pride the way rocket bombs do, but hey, something's gotta
>give.  Better it be pride than the death of a half million more innocents.

Man -- I'll tell you what. You really are sounding more and more like 
Doug! When pressed, you retreat into hysterics. You make false 
assertions about your opponent. (Rockets and bombs do not appeal to 
any sense of "pride" I may have in my nation, believe it or not. Nor 
am I proud in death of innocents.) You won't even simply *give up* 
when asked. You have no solutions of your own. You have not shown any 
understanding at all of anyone's problems with Doug. You are quick to 
adopt a mask of false modesty. And, suspiciously enough, when you 
make long posts, Doug is oddly quiet!

Of course, I have one sure-fire way of seeing whether or not you are Doug:

Barbara, do you think Gravity's Rainbow is really all about Vietnam 
and the Holocaust?

Retreating with an evil grin,

--Quail

PS: Feel free to blast me for the comparison to Doug; but please, 
stop lecturing me. I am done with this!