No, I'm Doug

[Phil Wise]

----- Original Message -----
From: "Terrance" <lycidas2 at earthlink.net>
To: <pynchon-l at waste.org>
Sent: Wednesday, October 31, 2001 7:33 AM
Subject: Re: No, I'm Doug


>
>
> Phil Wise wrote:
> >
> > Please.  First Mike Moore (Former NZ Prime Minister, now head of the
WTO)
> > who conflated protesters with the terrorists, then Peter Beinart (New
> > Republic resident dry rave) and now you.  I'm surprised and shocked,
> > frankly, unless you are being ironic, or speaking in the voice of
others.
> > You don't actually believe this conflation, do you????
> >
> > phil
>
> I'm not conflating. There is a huge difference between the the fanatical
> hatred for the West exhibited by the Terrorists and the anti Western and
> anti-American hatred exhibited by the most militant anti-globalists. The
> anti-globalists are a diverse group.

Thank you, they are.  And very many people who support some or many of their
causes are *not* anti-Western or America haters.  The weird thing about all
the debate about America's place in the world and peoples' attitudes to it,
is the absence of the word "ambivalence".  I think "ambivalence" about
America is an absolutely valid condition under the current circumstances.

I support some of their actions and
> share some of their objectives--on labor issues mostly. Mike pointed out
> that the anti-globalists are not anti internationalists, but rather
> against the control of the international market place by multinational
> corporations. This is indeed one faction in the anti-gloabal movement.

I don't agree either with the label.  I am concerned about labour issues,
but I am also concerned very deeply about the fate of democracy - it is very
clear to me that one effect of the globalisation of treaties like NAFTA or
the abandoned MAI will be that it will be almost impossible for Governments
to legislate to protect its citizens beyond some very basic functions.
Instead, the loony idea of "takings" will become some form of international
law, and countries like mine will not be able to afford to pass legislation
that may be vulnerable to an adverse finding under the treaty.  This is a
very legitimate concern, and I will react with a kneejerk when someone
implies that it may be allied with terrorism.

New Zealand, much like the US, has a civil-liberties crisis impending over
the definition of the word "terrorist", as our (Labour, dammit) government
rushes through legislation curbing our civil liberties without even allowing
the bulk of us to comment.  This is an outrage.


> However, there are anti-globalists who ally themselves with the
> anti-western terrorists and commit acts of terror. There are
> intellectuals on the extreme militant Left who advocate the dismantling
> of the Western markets by any means necessary.

Although this may be possible, they would be few and far between.  Unless
you refer to rock throwers and MacDonalds attackers, in which case I argue
that a more nuanced understanding of these acts, which recognises their
distructiveness without putting them on the level of "terror" or "terrorism"
should be applied.  Also, there have always been Marxists in every Western
country.  There are also those on the extreme right who advocate the
destruction of all Government, but you rarely hear GW Bush conflated with
Timothy McVeigh.  And if you did, the comparison would be wrong.  (The weird
thing is that McVeigh may have been right about Waco.  That doesn't mean
that his idea about retaliation wasn't unspeakably wrong-headed)

We can't fail to see,
> even here on this list, that there are people who share the objectives
> of the terrorists and consistently argue that while their acts were not
> just, there causes are. Moreover, several posts have gone so far as to
> justify the acts of terror. First, they argue that the USA is itself a
> terrorists organization. Second, they argue that the plight of the
> Palestinians and other suffering Muslims, justifies a military response
> by the terrorists. This, even as they condemn the USA for its military
> actions and claim to be pacifists. Doug had the balls to say (and here I
> will get emotional, sorry) that the real estate properties destroyed by
> the terrorists were insured anyway and that the "war economy would mean
> work for everyone" and that he was contributing a money to a fund for
> those in need of post-traumatic counseling. This, after flooding this
> list serve with his diatribes, his militant, anti-American propaganda
> and slander. He proceeded to play Vietnam anti-war activists; inundating
> us with the body counts from Afghanistan, the baby killing rhetoric, the
> paranoid AmeriKa slop. He chastised us for our apparent delusions of
> patriotism and labeled anyone who dared to object to his self-righteous
> assault as Fascist Bush supporters and a Nazi. He wasn't content to
> point out what all of all of, being members of the Pynchon List after
> all, were keenly aware of, that our Nation was very vulnerable to the
> Nationalistic Propaganda and that the government and the Press were
> engaged in a campaign to fan the flames and ready the country for war.
> He had to preach to the choir with his Leftists fire and brimstone. He
> insulted us with his total disregard for facts, his total ignorance of
> the complexities of the history of USA policy in the regions. He
> deliberately flamed us, day and night. By recklessly breaching all the
> rules of civilized dialogue, he destroyed any reasonable expectations
> that we could discuss these matters with some dignity.
>
> So now I'm picking on Doug again. What a thin skinned baby. What a
> whiner and a hypocrite. Yeah, I'm not pissed at him. Why take it out on
> him? Hell, I can go down the block and find another asshole saying the
> same crap. At least I can grab the prick by the throat and give him  a
> good Scottish kiss.
>
> I guess we're all a little crazy these days.

I wasn't defending Doug.  I was defending my own beliefs.

phil
>
> There is nothing wrong with crying
> There is nothing wrong with tears
> Some punch the walls
> Some curl up in balls
> Others tip too many beers
>
> It's hard to take, it's tough
> nothing is like it wuz
> so punch a wall, roll up in a ball
> and put on a damn good buzz
>
> There is nothing wrong with waving the flag
> or shopping,
> or flying far away
> There is nothing wrong with crying
> Or staying home today
>
> There is nothing wrong with anger
> there is nothing wrong with pain
> But I hope I never feel this angry
> or this much pain again
>