some thoughts on day 1

[calbert at hslboxmaster.com]

"You are worng on a number of accounts.  First, Israel is no more a
representative democracy than South Africa in the height of apartheid:"

I now recognize your cute semantic turn......Israeli arabs hold 10 % of the seats in the Knesset.....Palestinians in occupied territories may not have a vote in Israeli elections, but they are subject, not to the laws of Israel, but to the laws of the PA, for whom they are alleged to have a right to vote.....It seems that israeli arabs enjoy a greater measure of democracy than arabs in Syria, Jordan, Iraq, Iran probably all countries other than Egypt.....

"Palestinians in the occupied territories do not have any say as to what goes
on in Israel."

duh......the ultimate disposition of these lands has not been determined, so it is hard to understand how these should or could function as parts of Israel "proper"...and again, the bulk of these areas are "administered" by the PA.....which to date has shown a talent for corruption and repression, but little else.......I see a lot of Palestinians toting AK-47s - figure there is at least ONE teachers yearly salary in each of them? What do those priorities tell you......

"Second, my criticisms of Israel isn't support for the PLO: it
is essentially an organization of gangsters who are very willing to exploit
their own people and take advantage of the occupation for their own profit
and power."

and the name of the MODERATE political entity with which Israel has, to date, refused to negotiate is? THese are the thugs with whom Israel is obliged to strike any deal...and their shots are called from Damascus, Rhiyad, Baghdad and other Arab capitals.......and those countries, allegedly the friends of Palestine, treat the palestinians in a much less benign manner than Israel.....but then, they are not much better with their own people.......have you considered what progress might be made in the region if Israel could deal with countries whose leaders are in some way accountable.....Israeli leaders have lost their jobs, one lost his life, in their efforts to reach peace, I haven't seen many faces change in those other places - have you?

"Thirdly, there is considerable documentation--including video
footage that I have personally seen--by journalists and international human
rights organizations, indeed by Israeli-controlled newspapers like the
Jerusalem Post, of ambulances carrying patients, patients who died as a
result, being detained."

detained, or delayed by security measures consequent to yet another attack on isreali civilians? Don't get me wrong, these incidents are tragic, but there is, after all, a context...


"  This is only one of the many atrocities that Israel
has inflicted upon the Palestinians.  Again, this is extremely
well-documented by international human rights organizations and by the
international media "

then, in this, the age of the internet, you should have no problem finding references...... 


"(again, with the exception of the U.S. media, where such
events ARE covered but where the story is usually buried."


Thanks crediting us for that much......I can think of few nations which enjoy as vast a variety of media sources as this one...don't think everyone here just watches network TV......but it would be hard to imagine that stories such as this can both be covered and buried at the same time.....perhaps not given the emphasis they are there.....

"  It takes very
little effort to seek out this information, despite Israel's attempts at
concealing their record.  Consult the Human Rights Watch Annual Report for
virtually any year; "

I cited from one here very recently...please........

" for a fairly comprehensive consideration that is
meticulously researched, consult _Fateful Triengle_ by Noam Chomsky.
    One of the most basic tenets of a free society is the freedom to
self-determination, which is denied to the Palestinians."


It is denied a whole lot of people.....and in far greater numbers in the region than that represented by palestinians, and in more objectionable manners......have you ever wondered why the focus is on the JEWISH state?
If we turned a little more heat on some of the other actors in this tragedy, we would resolve this matter much more equitably and quickly....

all that said, this

"do us all a favor.....choke on your paella, would you?"

was grossly inappropriate. I apologize for it...


love,
cfa

                    mandel


calbert at hslboxmaster.com wrote:

> "Manuel V. Cabrera Jr."
>
> >     We should stop supporting Israel because it is a corrupt and
> >     repressive
> > government."
>
> how about mentioning that it is the ONLY representative
> democracy in the region, whose leaders are directly accoutnable to
> their people......how many Israeli PM have come and gone since
> Arafat took over the PLO? How about since Hafez Assad came to
> power in Syria, or maybe the hashemite Hussein family in Jordan....
>
>   It's occupation of Palestinian territories is brutal:
> > Gaza is surrounded by a giant barbed-wire fence; it is divided into
> > sixty-some-odd communities themselves surrounded by fences; no
> > Palestinian may pass from one community to another without security
> > checks, "
>
> could that be because the PLO charter has, until very recently (if
> now) called for the destruction of the jewish state? and that the
> PLO has shamelessly used their own people and children as
> fodder in a Pan Arabic war against the jewish presence in the
> Levant?
>
> while Israel jews are allowed free passage;  this latter fact
> > has included ambulances carrying Palestinian patients in ciritcal
> > condition, resulting in numerous deaths; "
>
> numerous stories, few facts....
>
>  the government of Israel
> > indiscriminantly"
>
> oh, really? WHat do you call the killing style made popular by the
> "footsoldiers" of the PLO.....have you ever heard of an Israeli, who
> having murdered palestinian children, is praised as a martyr?
>
>  kills, imprisons, and tortures Palestinians;
>
> this palestinians are more than willing to do to each other, for the
> mere offense of dissent....sometimes not even that....
>
>  it
> > indiscriminantly siezes land and uproots the residents thereof, only
> > to build jewish settlements;  Palestinians are denied education on a
> > regular basis (e.g. all schools in the Gaza Strip being closed for
> > three years during the nineties); "
>
> you mean during the intafada........beginning to sense how one
> sided your analysis is yet?
>
>  Palestinians are not allowed to own
> > or lease land in Israel;"
>
> funny, yet there are palestinians who are killed by other
> palestinians for the offense of selling their property in East
> Jerusalem to jews.....
>
>   Israel chokes and starves the inhabitants of
> > the occupied territories (e.g., while the vast majority of inhabitants
> > in the occupied territories are Muslim Palestinians, eighty percent of
> > the little public funding that goes into those areas benefits the
> > small minority of jewish settlers;
>
> how about all the funding supplied to the PA...why does most of it
> go "missing"?
>
>  Israel assasinates peaceful
> > Palestinian leaders, journalists and clerics without any
> > accountability;
>
> really? This is pure, unadulterated crap......
>
>   Israel covers this up through its infamous policy of
> > screening all materials gathered by any journalist.  It is nothing
> > less than apartheid. Why do you think the international community,
> > with the sole exceptions of the U.S. and Israel, have universally
> > condemned Israel since the conquest of the occupied territories in
> > 1967, starting with U.N. 242 and followed by dozens upon dozens of
> > U.N. resolutions thereafter?  THAT is why we should end support of
> > Israel.
>
> do us all a favor.....choke on your paella, would you?
>
> love,
> cfa
> >         mandel cabrera
> >
> > David Morris wrote:
> >
> > > I guess we should just back away from Israel now that we know how
> > > MAD some terrorists are at us...  Is that your suggestion?
> > >
> > > >From: Arne Herløv Petersen
> > > >
> > > >Feeling revengeful is natural, but I think it would be wiser to
> > > >stifle that impulse. In stead of learning from Northern Ireland and
> > > >Israel and retaliating - and get into ever widening loops of
> > > >revenge and retaliation - it might be better to learn from South
> > > >Africa and try to get on with our lives somehow.
> > >
> > > _________________________________________________________________
> > > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at
> > > http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp
> >

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