NP "the formerly colonised coming back to haunt us"

[Dave Monroe]

Happy holidays, by the way ...

--- jbor <jbor at bigpond.com> wrote:
> on 23/12/02 2:53 AM, Dave Monroe at
> davidmmonroe at yahoo.com wrote:
> 
> What you were saying and trying to do was quite
> clear. I don't know that anyone, apart from 
> yourself, has "taken up" TLOTR to be "'about'" WWII.

Always love the rhetoric here.  "Trying to do." 
Later, "propaganda," "accusations."  Er, did I even
start this one?  Wasn't there simply an article
posted?  But the WWII thing gets both mentioned and
dismissed often enough.  That Tolkien himself would go
to the trouble of denying it might kinda sorta
indicate that ...

> Or "current events". I certainly don't.

Take a look at the history of war, SF, fantasy,
whatever movies, novels, what have you, the
re/presentation of "elsewhere," "elsewhen" generally
tends to have no small resonance with "here," "now"
...
 
> As I've said, I think what you're getting at is
> Tolkien's (and general) values and attitudes, and
> how these are reflected in the text.

Well, on the one hand, thereare the (current) films,
on the other hand, there are the (published in 1954-5)
novels ... 

> I don't imagine that people, particularly
> youngsters, are watching the films (or reading the
> ooks) as either allegory or propaganda at all. They
> seem to be the epitome of escapism.

I don't imagine it, either.  Note that propaganda
works best precisely by effacing its status as such,
as, say, "merely" escapism, entertainment, whatever. 
Then again, "propaganda" was, is hardly my word of
choice here.  Nor have I claimed any consciousness,
much less deliberation, or even knowledge, on either
Tolkien's or Jackson's parts, of that "political (note
word choice here) unconscious" of their works ...
 
> I don't know that these aspects of his text make
> Tolkien or his books or films "sexist" or "racist",
> or even colonialist. Stronger and more specific
> arguments in terms of either intent or effect would
> need to be provided to support those accusations.

Not my interest, though my not taking the time to
bicker with you on this is hardly to say that it
couldn't be done.  Need I book archive time?  No, I
simply don't need to waste time arguing with you
arguing with me for the sake of arguing with me ...

> If it's being claimed that TLOTR is an allegory,
> which, of course, Tolkien says it isn't, then you'd
> need to say what it is an allegory of.

TLOTR is a whole lotta things, not in the least being
a trilogy of novels with a whole lotta stuff going on
in, around, and about them.  This constant effort to
pin the entirety of any possible opinions I might
hold, or might be interested in, down to any one stray
thought mentioned aloud here, seems merely a tcatic to
get me to waste my time and effort, again, argiung
with you arguing with me for the sake of ... right on
back to the offlist smokescreens and chaff you threw
up way back when I joined this list.  Dissent
apparently is simply not to be tolerated on yr end. 
Don't we have a story or somesuch to discuss?  From
P-List to T-List?  Schedule, calendar, please ...

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