GR 'Streets'

[jbor]

on 15/4/03 10:51 AM, s~Z at keithsz at concentric.net wrote:

>> It again seems to me to be a very secular vision.
> 
> Yet the section, which includes garrison-churches, chaplains, and Christian
> theology, ends with undeniable Biblical and astrological imagery.

I was referring specifically to the rhetorical question, "mightn't we find
some way back?" The narrator or Slothrop is meditating on whether there is a
way back to a time before these streets were used for "commerce ... war ...
repression". There seemed to be some assertion that this phrase was an
obvious Biblical reference. In the context, I don't think it is. (Or, if it
is, what is it?)

As we disagree on the attitude of the narrative voice towards the
garrison-churches, the chaplains and the preaching, there's not much point
dwelling on it. That said, the paragraph opening "Even in a street used for
that, still there will be one time ... " which serves as a segue after the
chaplains passage, is quite consistent with my argument that the tone of the
narrative voice is at odds with those Christian certainties which were
preached by the chaplains.

Yes, there is Biblical imagery at the end of the section, but the
associations are still negative. (The astrological references are more
ambivalent - but what "the pale Virgin rising in the east" is meant to be or
the significance of 17" 36' I'm still not clear about ... ) Nowhere in this
section does the narrative voice endorse a religious explanation of
existence. (In fact, I'd say that the narrator or narrative voice is
inclined more towards astrological beliefs than to Christian ones! This
makes some sense, because astrology has persisted in most cultures at the
level of folk-belief, even though it has been officially condemned by
religions across the board - that is, apart from Hinduism.)

> In Pynchon, I don't find any contradiction between the use of non-secular
> imagery/concepts and 'secular vision.'

This is a vast generalisation, and I probably wouldn't put it quite that
way, but I do agree that the text resists making absolute statements about
just about everything. My point was that the literal significance of the
notion of "passage" in the two paragraphs, of the passengers on the bus, and
of the narrator or Slothrop wondering whether there might be "some way
back", is secular. Trying to fix a religious interpretation to it (or to the
poplars or the "rattlesnake buzz") seems a bit of a stretch. In my opinion.
It's an interpretative leap and would need to be supported, explicated etc,
rather than just asserted.

> Whether one espouses them or not, religious views are held and believed, and
> have their consequences.

Yes.

> In this section, the crucifixion is presented as a promise of redemption and
> an image of 'mass' destruction.

I'm not sure that the Crucifixion is presented as this. It is most
definitely not presented as an assurance of personal redemption by the
narrative voice. The way "the Cross" is referenced in the text - the way it
has been described (the "hey-lookit-me smugness" of it) and imaged (it's
compared to the A-bomb mushroom cloud over Hiroshima, and to "a giant white
cock, dangling in the sky straight downward out of a white pubic bush") -
doesn't put a positive spin on the Christian beliefs associated with it at
all. That's the point. All the associations with Christian faith in this
section are negative ones, the narrative tone towards it (as with many other
examples throughout the novel) verging on dismissive. I know we disagree.

best



> Leo
> 
> A Masculine, Fixed Fire sign.
> 
> Leo, the fifth sign, is one of the four fixed signs, and its image of a lion
> has been given from the earliest times. During the early centuries of
> Christianity, Leo as the second of the four fixed signs was adopted to
> represent Mark, one of the four Evangelists. Leo is ruled by the Sun, the
> symbol of Christ, and is placed in zodiacs and churches as the first of the
> fixed sign. The symbol of Leo, is regarded to have been derived from ancient
> Greek horoscopes and is a representation of the lion's tail.
> 
> Characteristics
> Leo is the fifth sign of the zodiac, a fixed fire sign. Leo represents the
> king, and Leo can be a very noble sign, though their may be some problems
> with ego-inflation. Leo can be very dramatic, always putting on a good show
> for their subjects, and very protective of them as well. The planetary ruler
> of Leo is the sun.
> 
> The fireburst came roaring and sovereign. . . .
> 
> 
> 
>