GR 'Streets'

[jbor]

on 16/4/03 6:07 AM, s~Z at keithsz at concentric.net wrote:

> I agree that the literal reference is back to before commerce, etc., but the
> issue of Christian faith is also in the section, overtly in the chaplain
> paragraph and in the closing references to the Cross and Virgin.

It's more than just "the issue of Christian faith", however. There is an
attitude towards Christian faith, as destructive, as arrogant, as coercive.

> In this
> context, seeing the comment as also including a reference to "back to Eden"
> is not too much of a stretch, nor is seeing the imagery of snake and 30 y/o
> poles (crucifixion) and trees as Christian imagery.

Is there something specific somewhere about the age of the wood used for
Jesus's cross that I don't know about? I thought it was just a cross same as
any other, and that Jesus was treated like any other criminal. And he was 33
when he was crucified, wasn't he? Poplars? The "rattlesnake buzz" of the
electrical sparks? ... The specific details provided in the text don't seem
to gel with the interpretation you're offering.

> There is a certain
> symmetry to the section, beginning with snake/poles/trees and ending with
> phallus/Cross/Tree. When you add the context of the entire novel and its
> grappling with the issues of religious symbolism, death, redemption,
> salvation, and war, seeing the imagery as part of this may not be provable,
> but it has context.

Possibly.

> We disagree about some specifics. I think the section sets up a contrast
> between how Christian faith can be something to hang onto for the pious, yet
> turn around and be destructive to their enemies.

Partly. The chaplains paragraph also illustrates how Christian preaching is
out of step with what happens to the "good guys" in war as well.

>> Yes, there is Biblical imagery at the end of the section, but the
>> associations are still negative. (The astrological references are more
>> ambivalent - but what "the pale Virgin rising in the east" is meant to be or
>> the significance of 17" 36' I'm still not clear about ... )<<<
> 
> If you do an astrological chart for Hiroshima at the time of the blast, the
> chart would give all of that information. According to Weisenburger, all the
> astrological details are accurate, e.g., the constellation Virgo was rising
> in the East at that angle, and the sun was midway through the house of Leo.
> Cayce has a book with those kinds of readings in it. Perhaps TRP used that
> as a source. I would be interested on seeing Cayce's info on Hiroshima's
> chart to see if it has any bearing on the context.

If "the pale Virgin" is Virgo then it's not really a Christian reference at
all. It's an astrological reference. The mention of a "Western deity"
confused me into believing that it was a reference to the Virgin Mary. That
clears that up. Thanks.
 
>> (In fact, I'd say that the narrator or narrative voice is
>> inclined more towards astrological beliefs than to Christian ones!
> 
> The narrative voice has detailed knowledge of astrological charts and ties
> the imagery of astrology into Christian imagery (Virgo = Western deity), as
> many astrologers do as well. The use of the word 'sovereign' is telling as
> it alludes to one of the attributes of Calvin's God.

While some might try to tie the imagery of astrology into Christianity, I
think you'll find that both the beliefs and the imagery predate, and extend
well beyond Christianity. Astrology and Christianity are not the same. And
what's so different about your attribution of the word "sovereign" to Calvin
and my attribution of the word "nothingness" to Sartre? (Not that I'm
denying it as a possibility, mind you ... )
 
>> My point was that the literal significance of the
>> notion of "passage" in the two paragraphs, of the passengers on the bus, and
>> of the narrator or Slothrop wondering whether there might be "some way
>> back", is secular.
> 
> The literal significance is as you say. In a chapter ending with Cross,
> Tree, and an astrological chart for a city, I don't think we need to stop at
> the literal.

I think the literal ending of the section (the bombing of Hiroshima) isn't
something to be sidestepped so easily. The fact that the destruction and
carnage in Hiroshima is associated with Christian imagery adds to and
confirms the negative attitude towards Christianity which is evident
throughout the section (and the novel). The final paragraph plots an
astrological chart for Hiroshima and has shifted to the time just before the
bomb was dropped from "Enola Gay", and to a different pov. There's a
distinct break between this paragraph and the preceding one, which is where
the newspaper photo is described as reminding Slothrop of the Cross, a
"genital onset", and "a Tree".

best