1984 Foreword "redefining a world in which the Holocaust did not happen"

[jbor]

on 28/4/03 9:57 AM, Mutualcode wrote:

> The comparison between Orwell's motivations for not highlighting the
> Holocaust with the motivations of Katje, Blicero and Pirate for denying
> it's existence?

No, I've never made this comparison. I commented that the range of
speculations and justifications Pynchon offers about why Orwell, who did
know what happened in the death camps (according to what Pynchon writes in
the Foreword), largely avoided the Holocaust and "Jewish matters" in his
non-fiction writings and the novel confirm the way Pynchon has represented
some of the characters in _GR_ not wanting to think about the Holocaust,
even though it's hinted pretty firmly that they do know about it too. I
didn't say that Pynchon based Pirate or Katje or Blicero on Orwell, or that
they share the exact same motivations for doing this. We seem to be talking
at cross purposes, so I might leave it there.

In regard to GR, I think you'll find that Katje is at least jointly
responsible - if not more so - for originating and controlling the course of
the "Oven-game" which Gottfried, she and Blicero act out.

best

> Here's what I wrote:
> 
> In what Dave quoted I do not see any evidence that Pynchon
> is suggesting Orwell fell into the second category of
> character you describe in GR:
> 
> "...those who did know what happened in the death camps."
> 
> Here are your examples of characters affected by the same reticence
> that Orwell might have been affected by:
> 
> I think it's clear that Katje knows, and I've raised the idea
> before that in playing the "Oven-game" both Katje and Blicero
> are trying to defer or erase from their minds what they know or
> suspect is happening in the camps. If we accept that Pirate
> can enter into the thoughts and dreams of others then it's
> probable that he's aware too...
> 
> I don't see the similarity between Orwell's reticience and any of these
> characters presently, but you may be on to something here.
> 
> This is all territory which has been covered here before.
> 
> I do not recall that, but as I said, I find it interesting. It
> would suggest a commonality between those characterizations and
> Orwell that I had not thought of before. Blicero, I think, must be
> disqualified
> right off ther bat. He knows yet he seems to be using his knowledge
> to further his enjoyment of life. Katje seems a willing participant in his
> pursuits of pleasure, but I fail to recognize anything in her compliance
> with control that reminds me of Orwell's complex motivations. Pirate is
> a possibility, but the connection with Orwell, let alone Pirate's
> knowledge of The Holocaust, is tenuous at best.