Epic Poetry and Psychological Complexity (was NPPF Canto 1: 1-4 some random notes)

[David Morris]

--- Tim Strzechowski <dedalus204 at comcast.net> wrote:
> 
> Your response might have just as well been written by Milton's Satan, because
that is precisely how he viewed the choice: obedience (leading to mere
servitude) or disobedience (leading to punishment).
> 
> But recall that Milton's God says,
> 
> [...] Ingrate, he [speaking of Man] had of me
> All he could have; I made him just and right,
> Sufficient to have stood, though free to fall.
> Such I created all th' ethereal Powers
> And Spirits, both them who stood and those who failed;
> Freely they stood who stood, and fell who fell.
> Not free, what proof could they have giv'n sincere
> Of true allegience [...] (III: 97-104)

> Your argument using Eve and the exercising of her Reason doesn't really
support your position, only because when doing so you forget that her Reason
was being manipulated by a lie (again, how Milton fashions the Eve/Serpent
dialogue).  It's a reasoning whose foundation is based on error -- that eating
the fruit will make one like a God, etc. -- and all subsequent conclusions that
Eve reaches are obviously false.

Reason requires weighing and examining alternatives.  Reason doesn't require
one to be correct, just to examine.  Accepting what one is told without
questioning is called "faith" and is often likened to being blind.

> For Milton (and I stress a secular reading here; not about to argue dogma),
reason IS a form of obedience.  Obedience to a natural law.  However, one may
use reason either wisely or unwisely.  When serving the unwise, man is little
more than an animal, a creature that "obeys" but that obedience is
predetermined, irrational, like "slavery."

Well I'm not arguing dogma, just the facts presented in a story, but the story
I've focused on is not Milton's version, but my own understanding of the
Biblical account.  So we may well be speaking across each other.

> So ... Milton's God creates a universe in which the inhabitants have REASON
> and FREE WILL, and also creates situations that will test those inhabitants
> (a paradoxical situation, yes, but necessary if one is to truly have freedom
> of choice).  To make man free to choose, and at the same time not free to
> make wrong choices, would be illogical.
> 
> Remember: "Reason also is choice" (III: 108)
> 
[...]
>
> Raphael even makes it pretty clear:
> 
> "Attend: that thou art happy, owe to God;
> That thou continu'st such, owe to thyself"  (V: 520-21)
> 
> so the full blame rests on Eve who, knowing what would happen, still allowed
herself to be duped by the Serpent, and Adam, who lets Eve talk him out of
doing the morning gardening with her (Book IX).

Like I said, I'm not really arguing Milton, but I guess I agree with his Satan.
 Milton's God doesn't take responsibility for the beings and world that he
created.  And he could easily have fixed the mess after it happened (I know,
that's supposedly Jesus' job, but it come a little late).  Would you put a
child into a kitchen with an electric stovetop on at full throttle and tell the
child, "Don't touch that?"  If the child touched it you would bear some
responsibility.

David Morris

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