re Re: re Re: re Re: re Re: SLSL language

[barbara100 at jps.net]

> What a pleasure to find myself on the same side of
> this discussion with jbor!
>
> -Doug

Ain't it the truth! Jbor's convinced me of my own prejudices. (Along with
you and Davemarc.)  In the beginning of this thread I was leaning towards
Malign. And Elaine's blind parent analogy--they were beginning to sound
convincing. It always grated on my grammatical nerves to hear
the language distorted. "Axed," "expecially," "where yo baby mamma at." But
maybe it's deeper than just a grammatical nerve. Now I'm having to ask
myself
whether non-standard English necessarily means sub-standard.  Should I be so
quick to equate Ebonics with ignorance? Jbor's right, I'd never think that a
foreigner was any less an engineer or a doctor because he couldn't speak the
language perfectly. I see I've been somewhat racist in my thinking. Thank
you for the realisation.

Meanwhile last night I had a visitor in my home--a  17-year-old
African-European-American girl recently schooled in Ebonics in San Francisco
Unified. She has several cousins in the Oakland district too, so I got to
hear first hand what Ebonics class is all about.  First of all she didn't
think it had anything at all to do with respecting the home language. She
said it was more like a matter of survival. If you're living in a
neighborhood where people speak a certain way, you'll be disadvantaged if
you don't understand them. They pass out vocabulary dittos with the hep new
names of the city's neighborhoods so you know how to ask for and understand
directions; they teach you the local gang colors so you won't wear the wrong
colors in places where you'll get beat up, or worse; you learn the other
names of drugs and STDs so you know what you're suppose to be saying "no"
to. It all sounded like very useful information for getting along in a
community. As she was describing it all to me, I was instantly in favor.

And when I asked her if she still had regular English class, she stated as
crisp and clear as any affluent white kid in America, "Of course we learned
regular English too."



----- Original Message -----
From: "pynchonoid" <pynchonoid at yahoo.com>
To: "Pynchon-L" <pynchon-l at waste.org>
Sent: Saturday, March 15, 2003 4:33 PM
Subject: re Re: re Re: re Re: re Re: SLSL language


>
>
> >Date: Sun, 16 Mar 2003 09:17:59 +1000
> >Subject: Re: re Re: re Re: re Re: SLSL language
> >From: "jbor" <jbor at bigpond.com>
>
> >on 16/3/03 7:18 AM, calbert at hslboxmaster.com wrote:
>
> >>> "Mangled" and "aberrant" sez who?
> >>
> >>> Says a broadly accepted standard of usage.
> >> Language is, after all, a means of communication.
>
> >So your argument is that the users of African
> >American English don't
> >understand one another? Or that it isn't a broadly
> >accepted standard of
> >usage within their community? Please.
>
> >I don't think anyone here has advocated that Ebonics
> >be taught in place
> >of
> >"standard" American English, only that it be
> >recognised and
> >acknowledged as
> >a legitimate mode of cultural expression. I think the
> >real sticking
> >point
> >for some is the suppressed realisation that Ebonics
> >is a subversion of
> >"standard" American English, rather than a marker of
> >social and
> >cultural
> >inferiority. To be able to manipulate and flout the
> >"rules" of a
> >language
> >(often in such a way to point up inconsistencies and
> >illogical
> >preconceptions within those "rules", and to purposely
> >and successfully
> voffend speakers of the dominant "argot") requires a
> >pretty solid
> >understanding of the base language. Of course, for
> >subsequent
> >generations of
> >speakers that knowledge of the base language
> >gradually disappears,
> vbecause
> >the new code does function perfectly well on its own
> >and the kids are
> >immersed in it on a daily basis. Thus the children
> >aren't able to
> >switch
> >back to the alternate code when it's appropriate to
> >do so for the
> >discourse
> >context, and this is where the problems arise in
> >education, employment
> >etc.
>
> >It's quite possible that the distance between the two
> >codes will
> >continue to
> >grow, perhaps to a point where they become mutually
> >incomprehensible.
> >In
> >fact, this is precisely how languages do develop.
>
> >> It is not to
> >> deny the legitimacy or aesthetic qualities  of
> argots or dialects to
> >> argue that the "public" educational process is not
> responsible for
> >> nurturing it. Though education may be said to have
> any number of
> >> redeeming outcomes, surely LEARNING must be
> privileged -
> >> otherwise the process is something else....and
> LEARNING  is not
> >> served by maintaining the "prejudices" of ignorance
> - not meant in
> >> any negative sense, but in the absolute one.....The
> sting of being
> >> corrected in class cannot possibly compare to that
> of being
> >> rendered handicapped in a job market.....
>
> >This is rubbish. Language is merely a medium of
> >communication and
> >instruction. The same conceptual knowledge and skills
> >can be conveyed
> >and
> >learnt via Ebonics as via English. Or Spanish. Or
> >Windigo. Or any
> >language.
> >African-Americans (who can't switch to the dominant
> >language code) are
> >disadvantaged in the job market in the same way that
> >newly-arrived
> >migrants
> >and refugees are. If Bojan or Lakshmi were surgeons
> >or engineers back
> >in
> >Bosnia or Sri Lanka the fact that they don't speak
> >English doesn't make
> >them
> >any less of a surgeon or engineer.
>
> >It's exactly the same for African-American children
> >as it is for a
> >second-
> >or third-generation American child who grows up in
> >Little Italy and
> >speaks
> >only Italian at home and in her or his wider
> >community until he or she
> >starts school, and who continues to speak only
> >Italian in those
> >contexts.
>
> >> This debate  also overlooks one  of the very
> functions of argot,
> >> which is EXCLUSION.
>
> >Of course one of the motivations behind the use of
> >Ebonics is
> >exclusion.
> >It's a form of protest.
>
> >> Those who employ it are  specifically
> >> looking to confirm a bond which is NOT universal.
>
> >English isn't "universal". Get over yourself.
>
> >best
>
>
>
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