re Re: re Re: re Re: SLSL language

[calbert at hslboxmaster.com]

Jbor:
> You do keep flogging away at this straw man, dontcha just. The methods
> needed to teach students from different cultural and linguistic
> backgrounds to use and understand the range of "standard" varieties of
> spoken and written English are different, and they need to take into
> account students' home languages.

It is hardly a "straw man" to point out that the example of the 
ebonics speaking student is not unique........in fact, by removing
the specific language from the debate and inserting a "variable", I 
think we can get a clearer picture of the underlying argument......of 
course it robs some of the opportunity to tar their correspondent 
with the brush of "neo-imperialist yada yada".....

> > No, it is a type of "communication" which enjoys the same roots in
> > "functionality" but suffers from an absence of the "uniformity"
> > which facilitates such a  functionality across time......because the
> > PURPOSE of such "coded" langauge, as we have agreed, is - on
> > occasion, exclusion.....
> 
> And one purpose of the language used by lawyers, say, or any other
> professional clique, isn't?

Only as a secondary effect of trying to make legal terms as 
"unambiguous" as possible......

 Lawyerspeak amongst lawyers is perfectly
> functional.

Because it has a "practical" application IN A SPECIFIC  
CONTEXT.......

> So is African-American English amongst its speakers.

Here I would establish some distinction between the ideas of  
general and specific functionality...........Just as  legalese does the 
attorney on a Harlem Street corner little good, so too does  AAE 
the speaker trying to employ it to practical effect in a  court 
room......

 As
> I've said before, all languages change over time, both subtly within
> the space of a generation and more dramatically over much longer
> periods. Your attempt to discriminate against African-American English
> on this criterion doesn't hold water either.

Is there such a thing as degree of "perishability"? I thought of 
putting this notion to an experiment, but I don't know if I  have the 
time currently to seek out existing manuscripts in 18th century 
AAE.........


> It's the difference between a dead and a living language. The Latin
> you can learn is frozen in time, and people nowadays don't "speak"
> Latin as a means of communication at all. For a start, they wouldn't
> know how to.

What distinguishes Latin from Aramaic? 

>In prep school, the ABC kids from the deep south
> > weren't distinguished from their urban  counterparts by virtue of
> > much more than language......TO argue that there is no
> > differentiation is like arguing that african american culture is
> > monolothic.......
> 
> I'm not arguing that at all.

Really? Then, how does the "uniformity" which you and Terrance 
claim for AAE manifest itself? Is it not possible, that for all the 
effort of linguists, that the TRUE nature of ebonics is really limited 
to a grammatical structure which sprang in some organic fashion 
from the "parent" tongue? That once you start examening the issue 
of Ebonics' vocabulary, the "uniformity" dissipates?

 You're the one trying to say that (the
> predominantly white) "standard" American English (and culture?) is
> monolithic, which is what you claim distinguishes it from the way
> African-American English is used. It's simply not true.

This exaggerates the notion of "broadly accepted",  the term 
applied in the beginning of this  thread.......I can engage in 
business correspondence with other english speakers in disparate 
parts of the globe because we share, at SOME level, a notion of 
what constitutes the language - and we have not enjoyed the 
opportunity to  conspire between us to establish what those 
standards are -  they exist out there......
> > I have not 
> > loaded the terms "argot" or "dialect", I use those words to
> > distinguish that we are, in fact, dealing with a subset of a larger
> > entity.....
> 
> Come off it. You adopted the term "argot" to diminish the status of
> African-American English and to contrast it with some "standard"
> American English.

Nonsense......AAE exists in SOME  KIND OF RELATIONSHIP to 
English, and I would argue that it is NOT a dominant 
one........Argot has perfectly benign uses,  and  this one is an 
example....


 African-American English is a legitimate variety of
> English like any other. There is no centre, no "larger entity" in your
> terms. This "standard" English is an ideologically-motivated
> idealisation.

It is a  practical reality,  regardless of how uncomfortable it  makes 
you......

> > When I was 11, I spoke Swedish AND German MUCH
> > better than I spoke  English - so why do you keep wanting to insist
> > that my feelings for  english are the result of some kind of blind
> > conditioning? 
> 
> Wha?! You're reading a helluva lot more into my posts than I'm putting
> there bud.

Pot-Kettle-Black.......You have consistently accused me of arguing 
from some standpoint of cultural stratification, or worse, a crude 
jingoism.....I arrive at my adoration of english by virtue of my 
considerable experiences (not to be confused with active fluency, 
mind you) in other languages......I have lived the life of a child 
adapting to a  "foreign" dominant language on more than one 
occasion, and I cannot say I recognize the experience you insist 
your reading reveals....

> > So people cannot CHOOSE to assimilate to a functional level
> > without "surrendering" their identities?
> 
> Choice implies a valid alternative. Is there one?

Basic existential dilemma.........but I'm guessing that self 
sufficiency is likely a good starting point .........

> But you've been arguing that it's the fault of the language, the way
> the people communicate with one another, their culture, that this lack
> of opportunity persists.

No.....I simply recognize what IS.........the lack of oppurtunity is 
manifest - how do we address it? My own experience tells me that 
"side-tracking" of the sort you demand is not a practical  solution, I 
would prefer to expend more resources insuring functional fluency 
in the "dominant" language......

and lest there be any mistake - I do not think it is either appropriate 
nor common, for trained educators to belittle, in ANY way, the 
cultures of their students - and I didn't experience such when I was 
in the circumstance.......bear in mind that it  is these very 
educators upon whom you will rely to implement your 
"solutions".....

 It must be very reassuring for you to be able
> to throw the blame back onto the victims like that.

How long has it been, pard? Six years or more? Do you REALLY 
believe that I think like that?

love,
cfa



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