The intellectual origins of America-Bashing

[Otto]

----- Original Message -----
From: "Terrance" <lycidas2 at earthlink.net>
Cc: <pynchon-l at waste.org>
Sent: Sunday, October 26, 2003 3:29 PM
Subject: Re: The intellectual origins of America-Bashing
>
>
> Mike Weaver wrote:
> >
> > >Most of the "socialist" revolutionary governments of last century
> > > turned, often quite quickly, into "fascist" dictatorships:
> > > Kim Il Jong, Milosevic, the Ceaucescus, Saddam, Pol Pot,
> > > Castro, the Gang of Four, Hoxha, Stalin.
> > > It's a pretty appalling track record.
> > >
> > >best
> >
> > I did suggest earlier in the VL reading that we refrained from using the
> > next to useless definition 'fascist' and exerted the mental effort
> > necessary to say what we meant. The above underlines my point. The
> > statement gives a better idea of Rob's political ideology and ignorance
> > than anything else.
> > The only quality that is shared by the above list is that they are
> > viewed by the West as leaders of brutal, authoritarian,
> > non democratic systems.
> >
>
>  I agree that the word "fascist" is of little use to us here, partly, as
> Rob has often reminded us (and I think his ironic use of the term now is
> but another example ) because of the abuse of that term by participants
> here and by Pynchon's own "screwed up" use of the word.
>

I don't see any irony in Rob's words and I don't think that Pynchon has
"screwed up" the word in the "1984"-Intro, he describes the basic quality
of fascism: out of fear for their own safety and wealth people choose an
authoritarian regime.

>
>
> > Pol Pot is the only one on the list who qualifies as a fascist under
> > standard definitions. The transformation of the Khymer Rouge  from
> > communist/nationalist to fascist/nationalist happened in the climate of
> > a massively destructive campaign of bombing by the US.
> > Comes under the category of new forms of order generated by
> > conditions far from equilibrium. Their reign of terror was finally
> > halted by the intervention of communist Vietnam who were then
> > condemned (and embargoed?) by the West until they withdrew.
> >

Yeah, the international community was unable to help the suffering
Cambodians, and it's strange thet the oh-so-democratic West never
had any problems supporting the most brutal oppressors (like Saddam
Hussein, Batista, Pinochet or the South Vietnamese dictators) as long as
they weren't calling themselves socialist or communist.

> > Saddam was never any kind of socialist and was responsible for the
> > slaughter of the Iraqi communists.
> >
> > I am happy to defend Castro and the ongoing achievements of the Cuban
> > Revolution and find his inclusion in this list the finest indicator of
> > Rob's immersion in right wing river. Their inclusion by the US on the
> > list of terrorist states is a travesty, given Cuba's track record in
> > supplying
> > no strings humanitarian support to other third world nations including,
> > with much loss of life, their military contribution to the defeat of
> > apartheid in South Africa (while US capitalists, among others, continued
> > to make millions in profits from dealings with the regime).
> > The Cold War is not over - ...in one corner of Gaul a small village
> > remains defiant...
>

But they lack the magic-potion. I remember an article in DIE ZEIT
many years ago about a left-winged conference in Havanna where
the international guests couldn't get coffee in the morning, only
"Rotkäppchen"-champagne made in the DDR.

I wish Cuba the very best, and I think the USA should get a grip
and stop those illegal sanctions and the embargo.

Terrance:
>  After the collapse of the Communist systems and the thorough exposure
> of most of its catastrophic failures and crimes, it is difficult to
> imagine how so many talented, dedicated men and women remained and
> apparently still remain  loyal to the point of extreme sacrifice to a
> system that perpetuated such massive fraud and suffering.
>

What about the massive fraud and suffering caused by the US- and other
Western-foreign policy? What about Chili, Vietnam? What about the 500.000
dead Iraqi children caused by the Western sanctions that were "worth the
price"
according to Mrs. Albright?

It is no problem of loyalty to Stalinism but of opening both critical eyes,
the left
and the right. I think North Korea is a pretty good example for the
doublespeak going on 'cause we differentiate between good and bad
weapons of mass destruction.

Otto