From lycidas2 at earthlink.net Sun Aug 1 10:24:07 2004 From: lycidas2 at earthlink.net (Terrance) Date: Sun, 01 Aug 2004 11:24:07 -0400 Subject: GR III References: <20040731160905.35280.qmail@web50708.mail.yahoo.com> <000701c47742$f9f66d40$838d0f18@adminln4hlpboo> Message-ID: <410D0B17.89FD7053@earthlink.net> Well, of course. We won't toss out the Baby, the Gas, the Smile. We will need a schedule, pages and dates, the usual stuff. What I'm suggesting is a faster pace. I think that since this will be our third time, we can move quicker and focus on Gravity's Rainbow. Let's hear from others. From lycidas2 at earthlink.net Sun Aug 1 10:27:38 2004 From: lycidas2 at earthlink.net (Terrance) Date: Sun, 01 Aug 2004 11:27:38 -0400 Subject: GR III References: <20040731160905.35280.qmail@web50708.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <410D0BEA.569C7BC2@earthlink.net> Just one guy reading the book. If that blows your mind or your shorts or your nose. If it helps you can imagine my a filthy basement room or in a pink caddy sipping Colt 45 out of a size 17 Jordan. From barbara100 at jps.net Sun Aug 1 11:37:11 2004 From: barbara100 at jps.net (barbara100) Date: Sun, 1 Aug 2004 09:37:11 -0700 Subject: Did Pynchon see it? Message-ID: <001901c477e5$cbe8bc20$ca28a5d1@yourivc7xrn4yf> http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2004/08/01/INGRR7UIJ31.DTL Director Jonathan Demme fiddles with the classics again. After a remake of "Charade," he now offers up "The Manchurian Candidate" for a nervous, post Sept. 11 era. The original 1962 film featured Angela Lansbury as a political Svengali and Frank Sinatra as an Army major who tracks down Laurence Harvey, an American soldier captured during the Korean War and programmed through hypnotism for assassination by Chinese Communists. The film was based on a 1959 best-selling book by Richard Condon. For all the critical acclaim and subsequent political attention (Did Lee Harvey Oswald see it or not?), the movie flopped initially and was withdrawn from release after John F. Kennedy's assassination. "The Manchurian Candidate" remake brings to a wider audience questions about the role of the state in brainwashing and mind control, a topic usually reserved for the "nutters" on the Internet, as a character in the new movie puts it succinctly. Updating the politics of the era, the Communist evil empire has been replaced by a multinational corporation, Manchurian Global. Updating the science, hypnosis and brainwashing have been augmented with electrodes in the brain, microchips implanted in the body and electroshock. The term "brainwashing" was first popularized by Edward Hunter, in his 1951 book, "Brainwashing in Red China." Brainwashing was his translation for a Chinese term "hsi-nao," meaning, roughly, "cleansing of the mind." "It is practically impossible to fight something until it has been given a name," Hunter wrote, saying that brainwashing had a more "flesh-and-blood" quality than a more clinical alternative, "menticide," which means murder of the mind. The fear of brainwashing was rooted in wartime, fueled by anti-communist fervor and tinged with racism and xenophobia. Some U.S. prisoners of war in Korea renounced their citizenship in radio broadcasts and many signed confessions against American interests, including charges, still debated today, that the United States was engaged in germ warfare with anthrax. For Americans to abandon their ideals, the Communists must have devised some nefarious new means of thought control -- or so it was thought. [ ] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ottosell at yahoo.de Sun Aug 1 14:32:31 2004 From: ottosell at yahoo.de (Otto) Date: Sun, 1 Aug 2004 21:32:31 +0200 Subject: A SNAFU FOR ROCKETMAN Message-ID: <011f01c477fe$4b10b080$0101a8c0@i7t2q2> http://www.ottosell.de/web/pynchon/snafu.htm From Dedalus204 at comcast.net Sun Aug 1 18:03:23 2004 From: Dedalus204 at comcast.net (Tim Strzechowski) Date: Sun, 1 Aug 2004 18:03:23 -0500 Subject: NP: Military Draft Legislation Message-ID: <003301c4781b$c0340020$838d0f18@adminln4hlpboo> http://home.nyc.rr.com/cplex/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From vze422fs at verizon.net Sun Aug 1 19:50:36 2004 From: vze422fs at verizon.net (joeallonby) Date: Sun, 01 Aug 2004 20:50:36 -0400 Subject: NP: Military Draft Legislation In-Reply-To: <003301c4781b$c0340020$838d0f18@adminln4hlpboo> Message-ID: I'd be all in favor if they corrected past inequities by taking the children of privilege first. But then again, do I really want to be defended by Paris Hilton and the Bush twins? on 8/1/04 7:03 PM, Tim Strzechowski at Dedalus204 at comcast.net wrote: http://home.nyc.rr.com/cplex/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Dedalus204 at comcast.net Sun Aug 1 20:57:21 2004 From: Dedalus204 at comcast.net (Tim Strzechowski) Date: Sun, 1 Aug 2004 20:57:21 -0500 Subject: NP: Military Draft Legislation References: Message-ID: <000d01c47834$0d855190$838d0f18@adminln4hlpboo> Re: NP: Military Draft LegislationThey could do the USO tour. But then again, do I really want to be defended by Paris Hilton and the Bush twins? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From vze422fs at verizon.net Sun Aug 1 23:34:46 2004 From: vze422fs at verizon.net (joeallonby) Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2004 00:34:46 -0400 Subject: NP: Military Draft Legislation In-Reply-To: <000d01c47834$0d855190$838d0f18@adminln4hlpboo> Message-ID: That would require talent. on 8/1/04 9:57 PM, Tim Strzechowski at Dedalus204 at comcast.net wrote: They could do the USO tour. But then again, do I really want to be defended by Paris Hilton and the Bush twins? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ottosell at yahoo.de Mon Aug 2 05:38:35 2004 From: ottosell at yahoo.de (Otto) Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2004 12:38:35 +0200 Subject: NP: Military Draft Legislation References: Message-ID: <003d01c4787c$ded38b20$0101a8c0@i7t2q2> Re: NP: Military Draft LegislationSaw "Troy" yesterday: "War means old men are talking and young men are dying." "College and Canada will not be options." http://home.nyc.rr.com/cplex/ Yeah, come on all of you, big strong men, Uncle Sam needs your help again. He's got himself in a terrible jam Way down yonder in . . . (...) Come on fathers, don't hesitate, Send 'em off before it's too late. Be the first one on your block To have your boy come home in a box. http://www.countryjoe.com/game.htm Otto From lycidas2 at earthlink.net Mon Aug 2 05:58:23 2004 From: lycidas2 at earthlink.net (Terrance) Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2004 06:58:23 -0400 Subject: NP: Military Draft Legislation References: <003d01c4787c$ded38b20$0101a8c0@i7t2q2> Message-ID: <410E1E4F.5442613E@earthlink.net> Kinda ironic that Europeans, Middle Easterners, South Americans (where military service is required) are flooding into the USA, avoiding military service, finding work and prospering, while US men and women are shipped to these countries to defend them and rebuild them, yes, and even lose limbs and lives for them. Whatever you think drafts and wars, it's kinda hard to see young men from Iraq and Iran and Afghanistan, sitting at a corner coffee shop in the middle of the afternoon, in their God Dam PJs, watching the tube, while American boyz and girls die over there. Don't look like the war mongering Democrats will get us out of these wars. So, maybe a year in the Greek army don't look that bad now? From bcoley at us.ibm.com Mon Aug 2 07:58:09 2004 From: bcoley at us.ibm.com (Brett Coley) Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2004 08:58:09 -0400 Subject: GR III Message-ID: Can it be, a group read when I might actually have time for it? Am I turning into Burgess Meredith in that Zone episode? I'm interested. Cheers, Brett -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From calbert at hslboxmaster.com Mon Aug 2 08:47:07 2004 From: calbert at hslboxmaster.com (charles f albert) Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2004 09:47:07 -0400 Subject: GR III In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6.0.1.1.1.20040802094617.01cf8388@66.70.75.180> Dibs on running over and stomping your glasses.... love, cfa At 08:58 AM 8/2/2004, you wrote: >Can it be, a group read when I might actually >have time for it? Am I turning into Burgess >Meredith in that Zone episode? I'm interested. > >Cheers, >Brett From barbara100 at jps.net Mon Aug 2 11:58:43 2004 From: barbara100 at jps.net (barbara100 at jps.net) Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2004 11:58:43 EST Subject: NP: Military Draft Legislation Message-ID: <200408021558.i72FwqDj011208@waste.org> We're there to defend and rebuild them? How naive... ------------------------------------------------------- PROXYBUSTER: Is your firewall or proxy server at work/school blocking your Web traffic? ProxyBuster can help. http://www.proxybuster.net ------------------------------------------------------- Free Webmail, IP utilities, developer's articles, and more at Marzie's Toolbox: http://www.marzie.com ------------------------------------------------------- -----ORIGINAL MESSAGE BELOW----- From: Terrance To: Cc: pynchon-l at waste.org Kinda ironic that Europeans, Middle Easterners, South Americans (where military service is required) are flooding into the USA, avoiding military service, finding work and prospering, while US men and women are shipped to these countries to defend them and rebuild them, yes, and even lose limbs and lives for them. Whatever you think drafts and wars, it's kinda hard to see young men from Iraq and Iran and Afghanistan, sitting at a corner coffee shop in the middle of the afternoon, in their God Dam PJs, watching the tube, while American boyz and girls die over there. Don't look like the war mongering Democrats will get us out of these wars. So, maybe a year in the Greek army don't look that bad now? From scuffling at hotmail.com Mon Aug 2 12:06:08 2004 From: scuffling at hotmail.com (Ian Scuffling) Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2004 13:06:08 -0400 Subject: Old-Timer Message-ID: For what it's worth, I'm back (at least for a little while). If you've got the bandwidth, check out my streaming station, which I call KCUF ☺ : http://66.93.98.112:8000/played.html , a bit of something for everyone. If anyone is looking for the file that Wolf Siegal shared of the text of Lineland, let me know. I also have a couple of photos from the MD line North meets south in Delaware trip. Henry M From Dedalus204 at comcast.net Mon Aug 2 14:31:17 2004 From: Dedalus204 at comcast.net (Tim Strzechowski) Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2004 14:31:17 -0500 Subject: TPPM Host List Reminder & Update Message-ID: <000e01c478c7$48dcc730$838d0f18@adminln4hlpboo> While we await someone putting together a GR hosting schedule, this is just a reminder to you all. I'll grab one while they're still good for the grabbin', but if someone has his/her heart set on that Sloth article, let me know. Reserve one while you can, folks! Aug. 9 - Aug. 22: "Mortality and Mercy in Vienna" (1959) -- Dave Monroe Aug. 23 - Sept. 5: "Togetherness" (1960) -- Sept. 6 - Sept. 19: "The Gift" (1965) -- Sept. 20 - Oct. 3: "A Journey into the Mind of Watts" (1966) -- Oct. 4 - Oct. 17: Intro to Been Down So Long ... (1983) -- Oct. 18 - Oct. 31: "Is it O.K. to Be a Luddite?" (1984) -- Joseph Tracy Nov. 1 - Nov. 14: "The Heart's Eternal Vow" (1988) -- Nov. 15 - Nov. 28: Intro to The Writings of Donald Barthelme (1992) -- Nov. 29 - Dec. 12: "Nearer, My Couch, to Thee" (1993) -- Tim Strzechowski ** Assuming most folks will want a holiday hiatus until the new year ... ** Jan. 3 - Jan. 16: Spike Jones Liner Notes (1994) -- Jan 17 - Jan. 23: Lotion Liner Notes (1995) -- Jan. 24 - Feb. 6: Intro to Stone Junction (1997) -- Feb. 7 - Feb. 20: Intro to 1984 (2003) -- Joseph Tracy -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From r.romeo at atlanticphilanthropies.org Mon Aug 2 15:24:14 2004 From: r.romeo at atlanticphilanthropies.org (Richard Romeo) Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2004 16:24:14 -0400 Subject: Woods on DFW in The New Republic Message-ID: <55B62A3E95D99F4FBEC800D73AC2F2536EBC96@jkrehely.local.atlanticphilanthropies.org> Hi all- Though I quibble with James Woods critiques of Pynchon, I have to say I think he gets it right when discussing DFW's work (IMHO) The gibbous moon, not full but fuller than a semicircle, is a part that represents a whole, and there are evenings when we seem to "see" the shadow of this wholeness: we naturally complete the circle. This is not a bad emblem for how fiction--indeed, any mimetic art--represents a world without needing to offer us all of it. Fiction is a picture-making art, and we understand that pictures are only made frames around the potentially limitless canvas of the unmade. Obviously enough, fiction that took place in real time would resemble the conundrum explored by Josiah Royce and Borges, that of the map that is the same size as the landscape it represents.... Richard -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cyrusgeo at netscape.net Mon Aug 2 16:26:18 2004 From: cyrusgeo at netscape.net (Cyrus) Date: Tue, 03 Aug 2004 00:26:18 +0300 Subject: NP: Military Draft Legislation In-Reply-To: <410E1E4F.5442613E@earthlink.net> References: <003d01c4787c$ded38b20$0101a8c0@i7t2q2> <410E1E4F.5442613E@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <410EB17A.2030904@netscape.net> lycidas2 at earthlink.net wrote: >So, maybe a year in the Greek army don't look that bad now? > Not bad at all. Useless, maybe, but not bad at all. Cyrus From bekah0176 at sbcglobal.net Mon Aug 2 18:08:01 2004 From: bekah0176 at sbcglobal.net (Bekah) Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2004 16:08:01 -0700 Subject: NP: Military Draft Legislation In-Reply-To: <200408021558.i72FwqDj011208@waste.org> References: <200408021558.i72FwqDj011208@waste.org> Message-ID: Well, of course we are, Barbara! We defend them (with a bit of extra destruction) and then we sell them all the stuff to rebuild (with a bit of extra profit). Let's actually hire the locals to do the grunt work at .40 an hour.) Who gets the bucks that the tax payers spend? Where does this government purchase all the material needed to rebuild that poor country that we defended so heartily? Why ... from 'muricn comp'nies a course!Hal-e-burton and GE and Viacom and Boeing and ... hmmmmmmmmmm http://www.worldpolicy.org/projects/arms/updates/022404.html Too bad we can't supply Iraq with tax payer supplied pharmaceuticals. Be a big boon to our hurting drug companies. (All that R&D, you know.)(lol) Bek At 11:58 AM -0500 8/2/04, barbara100 at jps.net wrote: >We're there to defend and rebuild them? How naive... > > > >------------------------------------------------------- > PROXYBUSTER: Is your firewall or proxy server at > work/school blocking your Web traffic? ProxyBuster > can help. http://www.proxybuster.net >------------------------------------------------------- > Free Webmail, IP utilities, developer's articles, > and more at Marzie's Toolbox: http://www.marzie.com >------------------------------------------------------- > >-----ORIGINAL MESSAGE BELOW----- >From: Terrance >To: >Cc: pynchon-l at waste.org > >Kinda ironic that Europeans, Middle Easterners, South Americans (where >military service is required) are flooding into the USA, avoiding >military service, finding work and prospering, while US men and women >are shipped to these countries to defend them and rebuild them, yes, and >even lose limbs and lives for them. Whatever you think drafts and wars, >it's kinda hard to see young men from Iraq and Iran and Afghanistan, >sitting at a corner coffee shop in the middle of the afternoon, in their >God Dam PJs, watching the tube, while American boyz and girls die over >there. Don't look like the war mongering Democrats will get us out of >these wars. So, maybe a year in the Greek army don't look that bad now? From barbara100 at jps.net Mon Aug 2 20:37:37 2004 From: barbara100 at jps.net (barbara100) Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2004 18:37:37 -0700 Subject: NP: Military Draft Legislation References: <200408021558.i72FwqDj011208@waste.org> Message-ID: <000b01c478fa$764d48b0$970856d1@yourivc7xrn4yf> Hire the locals at $.40 an hour? F_ that! Too expensive. You can get 'em for half from a poorer neighboring country. Like this reconstruction going on in Iraq: Iraqi contractors aren't getting the jobs for sure; but neither are the laborers. They're being brought in from Pakistan and Afghanistan for a lot less. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bekah" To: ; Sent: Monday, August 02, 2004 4:08 PM Subject: Re: NP: Military Draft Legislation > Well, of course we are, Barbara! We defend them (with a bit of extra destruction) and then we sell them all the stuff to rebuild (with a bit of extra profit). Let's actually hire the locals to do the grunt work at .40 an hour.) Who gets the bucks that the tax payers spend? Where does this government purchase all the material needed to rebuild that poor country that we defended so heartily? Why ... from 'muricn comp'nies a course!Hal-e-burton and GE and Viacom and Boeing and ... > > hmmmmmmmmmm > > http://www.worldpolicy.org/projects/arms/updates/022404.html > > Too bad we can't supply Iraq with tax payer supplied pharmaceuticals. Be a big boon to our hurting drug companies. (All that R&D, you know.)(lol) > > Bek > > > At 11:58 AM -0500 8/2/04, barbara100 at jps.net wrote: > >We're there to defend and rebuild them? How naive... > > > > > > > >------------------------------------------------------- > > PROXYBUSTER: Is your firewall or proxy server at > > work/school blocking your Web traffic? ProxyBuster > > can help. http://www.proxybuster.net > >------------------------------------------------------- > > Free Webmail, IP utilities, developer's articles, > > and more at Marzie's Toolbox: http://www.marzie.com > >------------------------------------------------------- > > > >-----ORIGINAL MESSAGE BELOW----- > >From: Terrance > >To: > >Cc: pynchon-l at waste.org > > > >Kinda ironic that Europeans, Middle Easterners, South Americans (where > >military service is required) are flooding into the USA, avoiding > >military service, finding work and prospering, while US men and women > >are shipped to these countries to defend them and rebuild them, yes, and > >even lose limbs and lives for them. Whatever you think drafts and wars, > >it's kinda hard to see young men from Iraq and Iran and Afghanistan, > >sitting at a corner coffee shop in the middle of the afternoon, in their > >God Dam PJs, watching the tube, while American boyz and girls die over > >there. Don't look like the war mongering Democrats will get us out of > >these wars. So, maybe a year in the Greek army don't look that bad now? > > From Dedalus204 at comcast.net Mon Aug 2 20:56:24 2004 From: Dedalus204 at comcast.net (Tim Strzechowski) Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2004 20:56:24 -0500 Subject: NP: Military Draft Legislation References: <200408021558.i72FwqDj011208@waste.org> <000b01c478fa$764d48b0$970856d1@yourivc7xrn4yf> Message-ID: <001301c478fd$163e30d0$838d0f18@adminln4hlpboo> Yeah, but to be a contractor in Iraq these days, you need a good head on your shoulders. For a while, at least ... > Hire the locals at $.40 an hour? F_ that! Too expensive. You can get 'em for > half from a poorer neighboring country. Like this reconstruction going on > in Iraq: Iraqi contractors aren't getting the jobs for sure; but neither are > the laborers. They're being brought in from Pakistan and Afghanistan for a > lot less. > From lycidas2 at earthlink.net Mon Aug 2 21:31:06 2004 From: lycidas2 at earthlink.net (Terrance) Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2004 22:31:06 -0400 Subject: GR III (Fast & Focused group read) References: Message-ID: <410EF8EA.CCDC8ADD@earthlink.net> Not enough interest to post a schedule for Part One Yet. Brett Coley wrote: > > Can it be, a group read when I might actually > have time for it? Am I turning into Burgess > Meredith in that Zone episode? I'm interested. > > Cheers, > Brett From Dedalus204 at comcast.net Mon Aug 2 21:54:47 2004 From: Dedalus204 at comcast.net (Tim Strzechowski) Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2004 21:54:47 -0500 Subject: GR III (Fast & Focused group read) References: <410EF8EA.CCDC8ADD@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <002d01c47905$3e18b320$838d0f18@adminln4hlpboo> I'm interested (tho not at the same time I'm hosting the Sloth essay). Guess that makes three of us. > Not enough interest to post a schedule for Part One Yet. > From joe at barrera.org Mon Aug 2 22:16:11 2004 From: joe at barrera.org (Joseph S. Barrera III) Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2004 20:16:11 -0700 Subject: GR III (Fast & Focused group read) In-Reply-To: <002d01c47905$3e18b320$838d0f18@adminln4hlpboo> References: <410EF8EA.CCDC8ADD@earthlink.net> <002d01c47905$3e18b320$838d0f18@adminln4hlpboo> Message-ID: <410F037B.1080900@barrera.org> Tim Strzechowski wrote: > I'm interested (tho not at the same time I'm hosting the Sloth > essay). > > Guess that makes three of us. ME TOO From vze422fs at verizon.net Mon Aug 2 23:31:01 2004 From: vze422fs at verizon.net (joeallonby) Date: Tue, 03 Aug 2004 00:31:01 -0400 Subject: NP: Military Draft Legislation In-Reply-To: <003d01c4787c$ded38b20$0101a8c0@i7t2q2> Message-ID: And it's one, two, three... on 8/2/04 6:38 AM, Otto at ottosell at yahoo.de wrote: > Re: NP: Military Draft LegislationSaw "Troy" yesterday: > "War means old men are talking and young men are dying." > > "College and Canada will not be options." > http://home.nyc.rr.com/cplex/ > > Yeah, come on all of you, big strong men, > Uncle Sam needs your help again. > He's got himself in a terrible jam > Way down yonder in . . . > (...) > Come on fathers, don't hesitate, > Send 'em off before it's too late. > Be the first one on your block > To have your boy come home in a box. > http://www.countryjoe.com/game.htm > > Otto From cyrusgeo at netscape.net Tue Aug 3 05:24:44 2004 From: cyrusgeo at netscape.net (Cyrus) Date: Tue, 03 Aug 2004 13:24:44 +0300 Subject: GR III (Fast & Focused group read) In-Reply-To: <410EF8EA.CCDC8ADD@earthlink.net> References: <410EF8EA.CCDC8ADD@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <410F67EC.3060902@netscape.net> lycidas2 at earthlink.net wrote: >Not enough interest to post a schedule for Part One Yet. > GR is the best novel I've ever read. It resembles nothing written either before or after it. (Subjectivity alarm goes off). I'm all for it. I'd rather host in October, but we can sort this out, if there's more interest. Cyrus From ottosell at yahoo.de Tue Aug 3 05:57:12 2004 From: ottosell at yahoo.de (Otto) Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2004 12:57:12 +0200 Subject: Old-Timer References: Message-ID: <007d01c47948$a32a96a0$0101a8c0@i7t2q2> Nice stream. Works perfectly. Good to listen to. I've given it a link. Otto <^><^><^><^><^> www.ottosell.de/musik.htm ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ian Scuffling" To: "Pynchon List" Sent: Monday, August 02, 2004 7:06 PM Subject: Old-Timer > For what it's worth, I'm back (at least for a little while). If you've got the bandwidth, check out my streaming station, which I call KCUF ☺ : http://66.93.98.112:8000/played.html , a bit of something for everyone. > > If anyone is looking for the file that Wolf Siegal shared of the text of Lineland, let me know. I also have a couple of photos from the MD line North meets south in Delaware trip. > > Henry M > > From ottosell at yahoo.de Tue Aug 3 05:57:09 2004 From: ottosell at yahoo.de (Otto) Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2004 12:57:09 +0200 Subject: GR III (Fast & Focused group read) References: <410EF8EA.CCDC8ADD@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <007c01c47948$a14cfd00$0101a8c0@i7t2q2> Mission Impossible? I'd bet there's enough interest and a much faster way of doing it sounds suggestive. But I wonder if it will work. Especially the strict five-pages split rises doubts. Nevertheless I'd give it a try - I mean, we did two books at a time and it worked, at least sort of. It would be a totally different approach and if we don't try we'll never know. There are so many new voices around it really might be interesting. Of course this would require to leave the trenches and let old arguments behind. Otto ----- Original Message ----- From: "Terrance" To: "Brett Coley" Cc: Sent: Tuesday, August 03, 2004 4:31 AM Subject: Re: GR III (Fast & Focused group read) > Not enough interest to post a schedule for Part One Yet. > > Brett Coley wrote: > > > > Can it be, a group read when I might actually > > have time for it? Am I turning into Burgess > > Meredith in that Zone episode? I'm interested. > > > > Cheers, > > Brett From ottosell at yahoo.de Tue Aug 3 07:24:58 2004 From: ottosell at yahoo.de (Otto) Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2004 14:24:58 +0200 Subject: Herero References: <003401c4773b$5e149700$0101a8c0@i7t2q2> Message-ID: <000c01c47954$e5723f20$0101a8c0@i7t2q2> "Deutsche Reiter in Südwest" Faksimile of a very popular German book from 1909 on the Herero-uprising. Some glorifying paintings: http://www.lehrer-online.de/dyn/bin/387403-387413-1-hereroaufstand-arbeitsmaterialien.zip -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ottosell at yahoo.de Tue Aug 3 08:37:17 2004 From: ottosell at yahoo.de (Otto) Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2004 15:37:17 +0200 Subject: NP Female Bed-Rest Study Message-ID: <002001c4795e$ffdbd420$0101a8c0@i7t2q2> In case some of the ladies are interested. Otto ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Tuesday, August 03, 2004 2:23 PM Subject: [esa_general] ESA is looking for female volunteers for a bed-rest study in Toulouse next year > In preparation for a 60-day Female Bed-Rest Study, which starts in January/February 2005, an official call for candidates to participate as test subjects has been issued. > > Read more: > > http://www.esa.int/export/esaCP/SEMVPXV4QWD_Life_0.html From r.romeo at atlanticphilanthropies.org Tue Aug 3 09:02:49 2004 From: r.romeo at atlanticphilanthropies.org (Richard Romeo) Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2004 10:02:49 -0400 Subject: Herero Message-ID: <55B62A3E95D99F4FBEC800D73AC2F2536EBC9D@jkrehely.local.atlanticphilanthropies.org> Otto- Do you think the average German is aware of what happened to the Herero or is it subsumed by the Nazi era in the public consciousness? Just curious Richard -----Original Message----- From: owner-pynchon-l at waste.org [mailto:owner-pynchon-l at waste.org] On Behalf Of Otto Sent: Tuesday, August 03, 2004 8:25 AM To: Pynchon Liste Subject: Herero "Deutsche Reiter in Südwest" Faksimile of a very popular German book from 1909 on the Herero-uprising. Some glorifying paintings: http://www.lehrer-online.de/dyn/bin/387403-387413-1-hereroaufstand-arbeitsmaterialien.zip -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From KXX4493553 at aol.com Tue Aug 3 10:09:11 2004 From: KXX4493553 at aol.com (KXX4493553 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2004 11:09:11 EDT Subject: Re. Herero Message-ID: <5b.5525bae8.2e410497@aol.com> In einer eMail vom 03.08.2004 15:05:23 Westeuropäische Normalzeit schreibt r.romeo at atlanticphilanthropies.org: > Do you think the average German is aware of what happened to the Herero or > is it subsumed by the Nazi era in the public consciousness? > > Just curious > Does the average American know what happened a hundred years ago? We know what happened 90 years ago, 1914, but before that:-) kwp -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From r.romeo at atlanticphilanthropies.org Tue Aug 3 10:17:30 2004 From: r.romeo at atlanticphilanthropies.org (Richard Romeo) Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2004 11:17:30 -0400 Subject: Re. Herero Message-ID: <55B62A3E95D99F4FBEC800D73AC2F2536EBCAB@jkrehely.local.atlanticphilanthropies.org> The average American pretty much knows zip about pre-TV history Richard -----Original Message----- From: owner-pynchon-l at waste.org [mailto:owner-pynchon-l at waste.org] On Behalf Of KXX4493553 at aol.com Sent: Tuesday, August 03, 2004 11:09 AM To: pynchon-l at waste.org Subject: Re. Herero In einer eMail vom 03.08.2004 15:05:23 Westeuropäische Normalzeit schreibt r.romeo at atlanticphilanthropies.org: Do you think the average German is aware of what happened to the Herero or is it subsumed by the Nazi era in the public consciousness? Just curious Does the average American know what happened a hundred years ago? We know what happened 90 years ago, 1914, but before that:-) kwp -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From joe at barrera.org Tue Aug 3 10:42:47 2004 From: joe at barrera.org (Joseph S. Barrera III) Date: Tue, 03 Aug 2004 08:42:47 -0700 Subject: Re. Herero In-Reply-To: <5b.5525bae8.2e410497@aol.com> References: <5b.5525bae8.2e410497@aol.com> Message-ID: <410FB277.10609@barrera.org> KXX4493553 at aol.com wrote: > Does the average American know what happened a hundred years ago? We > know what happened 90 years ago, 1914, but before that:-) I bet you the average American knows more about 1860 than 1914. - Joe From ghetta_outta at hotmail.com Tue Aug 3 11:05:00 2004 From: ghetta_outta at hotmail.com (Ghetta Life) Date: Tue, 03 Aug 2004 16:05:00 +0000 Subject: Re. Herero Message-ID: It's curious that you answer a serious question with a counter question. I guess you mean it as a joke. But the question was a simple and honest one. The answer to both questions would have to define what the "average" citizen of each country would be. That's probably easier for a German because your country is far more homogenious than the US. But for the US let's stipulate a high school diploma and some level of continued literacy. In that case, many average US citizens "know" what happened 100 years ago, including our attrocities toward native americans, at least in very general terms. Ghetta >From: KXX4493553 at aol.com > >r.romeo at atlanticphilanthropies.org: > > > Do you think the average German is aware of what happened to the Herero >or is it subsumed by the Nazi era in the public consciousness? > > > > Just curious > > > >Does the average American know what happened a hundred years ago? We know >what happened 90 years ago, 1914, but before that:-) >kwp _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail From scuffling at hotmail.com Tue Aug 3 11:22:02 2004 From: scuffling at hotmail.com (Ian Scuffling) Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2004 12:22:02 -0400 Subject: Files, NP and P In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I have discovered that my Hotmail account is not a good vehicle for sending files of any size, so I have set up an account on my FTP server. You can get to it easily by using this link: ftp://pynchon:password at techdc.minidns.net/ , i.e. the account name is "pynchon" (don't type the quotes), and the password is... (wait for it) "password" on my server, techdc.minidns.net (IP address is 66.93.98.112). If it doesn't work, make sure that the password is correct in you browser. For example, in internet explorer, look in "Login as." under the File menu. I'm sharing out Pynchon files, Recipes, and some fun Bush stuff, including the extraordinary video remake of Electric Six's "Gay Bar." The other folders aren't open to the Pynchon account HenryM This message was scanned by Norton AntiVirus 2004. This transmission may be confidential or protected from disclosure and is only for review and use by the intended recipient. Access by anyone else is unauthorized. Any unauthorized reader is hereby notified that any review, use, dissemination, disclosure or copying of this information, or any act or omission taken in reliance on it, is prohibited and may be unlawful. If you received this transmission in error, please notify the sender immediately. Thank you. From monropolitan at yahoo.com Tue Aug 3 11:37:32 2004 From: monropolitan at yahoo.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2004 09:37:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: NP: Military Draft Legislation In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040803163732.37369.qmail@web50704.mail.yahoo.com> Next stop is ol' Iran ... --- joeallonby wrote: > And it's one, two, three... __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From pynchonoid at yahoo.com Tue Aug 3 11:57:54 2004 From: pynchonoid at yahoo.com (pynchonoid) Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2004 09:57:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: NP: Military Draft Legislation In-Reply-To: <410E1E4F.5442613E@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <20040803165754.58875.qmail@web40707.mail.yahoo.com> Still plowing through after a few days vacation... --- Terrance wrote: [...]Whatever you > think drafts and wars, > it's kinda hard to see young men from Iraq and Iran > and Afghanistan, > sitting at a corner coffee shop in the middle of the > afternoon, in their > God Dam PJs, watching the tube, while American boyz > and girls die over > there. Simple solution: don't send any more Americans to kill or die over there. ===== http://pynchonoid.org "everything connects" http://neoconservadroid.org "android warriors of the right" __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From sims at ezpzapps.com Tue Aug 3 12:08:56 2004 From: sims at ezpzapps.com (sims) Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2004 19:08:56 +0200 Subject: Old-Timer Message-ID: I like the song list but I'm only able to listen to your intro statement, no music yet. I'm in an internet cafe in Valletta...I'll try some more, I'd like to give it a listen. From today's Malta Times newspaper "The Brothers V" court case http://www.timesofmalta.com/core/article.php?id=160853 "On October 16, 1987, the owners of the property, who were referred to as the "brothers V" in the judgment, instituted civil proceedings against the Housing Secretary and the band club in which they requested that the requisition order be declared null and void and ..." ciao, sims > > For what it's worth, I'm back (at least for a little while). If you've >got the bandwidth, check out my streaming station, which I call KCUF ? : >http://66.93.98.112:8000/played.html , a bit of something for everyone. >> >> If anyone is looking for the file that Wolf Siegal shared of the text of >Lineland, let me know. I also have a couple of photos from the MD line >North meets south in Delaware trip. >> >> Henry M > From scuffling at hotmail.com Tue Aug 3 12:06:59 2004 From: scuffling at hotmail.com (Ian Scuffling) Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2004 13:06:59 -0400 Subject: Files, NP and P In-Reply-To: Message-ID: By the way, submissions for distribution (or otherwise) are welcome in the Upload folder. Thanks, Vermont. I now have a listener in Malta! I'd like to think they're a p-lister. HenryM From ottosell at yahoo.de Tue Aug 3 12:15:28 2004 From: ottosell at yahoo.de (Otto) Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2004 19:15:28 +0200 Subject: Herero References: <55B62A3E95D99F4FBEC800D73AC2F2536EBC9D@jkrehely.local.atlanticphilanthropies.org> Message-ID: <001d01c4797d$7ae4bba0$0101a8c0@i7t2q2> Richard, I always call German Colonialism the third Great Myth* we Germans have cultivated after WW2. It begins with the fact that we Germans only took our share of the colonies, that Germany has been the same type of imperialist colonial power than the others, the USA included. Then you will be told that "our" colonial regime has been much better than the British, French, Dutch or (especially) Belgian. You will be reminded that even today there are still black Africans proud of their German names and their duty for Kaiser Bill. I've seen websites interested in colonialism that deny the fact that the German atrocities have been a genocide, but you get precise figures of how many farmers have been killed by the Herero "insurgents." So my impression is that the average German has no idea of that holocaust from ninety years ago. But they are all content that the Herero people won't get any compensation for what has happened. The argument is that we aren't the legal successor of the German Empire and that we pay most of the development aid to Namibia. Germany avoids Herero reparations. Germany has rejected calls to pay compensation for the killing of thousands of Namibia's ethnic Hereros during the colonial era.The German ambassador to Botswana told a gathering of Hereros in northern Botswana that Germany deeply regretted what he called "this unfortunate past". However, he said it was not prepared to offer reparations. BBC, Sunday, 18 July, 2004 http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/3904897.stm The interesting thing about your question is that this colonial myth has been created in the nazi era and has outlived it. I own a book that my father had got at his eight birthday in 1937, "Das Volksbuch unserer Kolonien" and it tells precisely this myth. Otto *Myth No.1 is that the Holocaust has been committed by the Nazis, not by the Germans in general; this myth has been refuted successfully by Daniel Jonah Goldhagen. *Myth No. 2 is that the "Wehrmacht" has led an honorable fight, that war crimes only have been committed by the SS or other special groups. This myth has been destroyed by the "Wehrmacht"-Exhibition. ----------------------------- ----- Original Message ----- From: Richard Romeo To: Otto ; Pynchon Liste Sent: Tuesday, August 03, 2004 4:02 PM Subject: RE: Herero Otto- Do you think the average German is aware of what happened to the Herero or is it subsumed by the Nazi era in the public consciousness? Just curious Richard "Deutsche Reiter in Südwest" Faksimile of a very popular German book from 1909 on the Herero-uprising. Some glorifying paintings: http://www.lehrer-online.de/dyn/bin/387403-387413-1-hereroaufstand-arbeitsmaterialien.zip From ottosell at yahoo.de Tue Aug 3 12:39:49 2004 From: ottosell at yahoo.de (Otto) Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2004 19:39:49 +0200 Subject: Herero References: Message-ID: <003801c47980$e1991fa0$0101a8c0@i7t2q2> Let me assure you that is has nothing at all to do with the time span. It is something that I'm very grateful to Thomas Pynchon for making me aware about the fact that this part of German history (of course) has been the subject of re-writing history too. Otto ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ghetta Life" > > It's curious that you answer a serious question with a counter question. I > guess you mean it as a joke. But the question was a simple and honest one. > > The answer to both questions would have to define what the "average" citizen > of each country would be. That's probably easier for a German because your > country is far more homogenious than the US. But for the US let's stipulate > a high school diploma and some level of continued literacy. In that case, > many average US citizens "know" what happened 100 years ago, including our > attrocities toward native americans, at least in very general terms. > > Ghetta > > >From: KXX4493553 at aol.com > > > > Do you think the average German is aware of what happened to the Herero > > or is it subsumed by the Nazi era in the public consciousness? > > > > > > Just curious > > > > > > >Does the average American know what happened a hundred years ago? We know > >what happened 90 years ago, 1914, but before that:-) > >kwp > From monropolitan at yahoo.com Tue Aug 3 13:14:52 2004 From: monropolitan at yahoo.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2004 11:14:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: The Witty Professor Message-ID: <20040803181452.4790.qmail@web50706.mail.yahoo.com> The Witty Professor: Sidney Morgenbesser Aug. 2, 2004 Columbia philosophy professor Sidney Morgenbesser died Sunday morning. Born in 1921, Morganbesser was famous for his wit. One well-remembered story about him regards an Oxford philosopher giving a speech at Columbia University 20 years ago. When the don said that in most languages two negatives make a positive, but in no language do two positives make a negative, Morganbesser refuted the point by waving his hand dismissively and saying, "Yeah, Yeah." ... http://www.npr.org/features/feature.php?wfId=3810783 __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From KXX4493553 at aol.com Tue Aug 3 13:22:01 2004 From: KXX4493553 at aol.com (KXX4493553 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2004 14:22:01 EDT Subject: Re. Herero Message-ID: <15c.3ad7d53d.2e4131c9@aol.com> In einer eMail vom 03.08.2004 17:06:43 Westeuropäische Normalzeit schreibt ghetta_outta at hotmail.com: > The answer to both questions would have to define what the "average" > citizen > of each country would be. That's probably easier for a German because your > country is far more homogenious than the US. But for the US let's stipulate > a high school diploma and some level of continued literacy. In that case, > many average US citizens "know" what happened 100 years ago, including our > attrocities toward native americans, at least in very general terms. > I think it's the same here. The most people know from history what they learnt at school. And let's say, an average German knows that 100 years ago we had a monarchy and an emperor, we had colonies and there were strange people called "Hottentotten", wild and black and primitive. I would say the last s/he knows from his grandfather. That's all. kwp -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lycidas2 at earthlink.net Tue Aug 3 15:17:21 2004 From: lycidas2 at earthlink.net (Terrance) Date: Tue, 03 Aug 2004 16:17:21 -0400 Subject: GR III (Fast & Focused group read) References: <410EF8EA.CCDC8ADD@earthlink.net> <007c01c47948$a14cfd00$0101a8c0@i7t2q2> Message-ID: <410FF2D1.22BC1048@earthlink.net> Otto wrote: > > Mission Impossible? > > I'd bet there's enough interest and a much faster way of doing it sounds > suggestive. But I wonder if it will work. Especially the strict five-pages > split rises doubts. We don't need to have a rigid five-page per day schedule. We can read it quicker. We can focus on the novel. Is there enough interest? At any pace? Doesn't look that way right now. At the 6-9 months pace we would have 22 hosts. I'd be willing to host three 35 page sections, including section one. Remember, I think that we have an over abundance of Notes and Critical Stuff in the archives. I'm proposing a more traditional "book club" or group reading of the novel. Any more interest? Suggestions? Ideas? Comments? Would like to hear from everyone, even those that will be sitting this one out for whatever reason. Thanks, T From r.romeo at atlanticphilanthropies.org Tue Aug 3 15:46:02 2004 From: r.romeo at atlanticphilanthropies.org (Richard Romeo) Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2004 16:46:02 -0400 Subject: Re. Herero Message-ID: <55B62A3E95D99F4FBEC800D73AC2F2536EBCB7@jkrehely.local.atlanticphilanthropies.org> That's a great story, Kurt When I recently visited Krakow, it was great to see Schlinder's factory-for me, it's very hard to reconcile such beauty with the deeds of the past, pbly not so much different seeing the great old West now and remembering wounded knee, roaming buffalo, and vicious slaughter Hitler and the Power of Aesthetics was written by Frederic Spotts. Karl May is mentioned as one author that Hitler particularly enjoyed. Hitler's early posed photos featured in the book (by Heinrich Hoffmann) are very campy. Spotts main theme seems to be that Hitler came to politics reluctantly Here's more on the book: A startling reassessment of Hitler's aims and motivations, Frederic Spotts's Hitler and the Power of Aesthetics is an adroitly argued and highly original work that provides the key to a fuller understanding of the Third Reich. Spotts, author of the distinguished Bayreuth: A History of the Wagner Festival, convincingly demonstrates that unlike the traditional biographical view that Hitler was an "unperson" who had no life outside of politics, Hitler's interest in the arts was as intense as his racism-and that he used the arts to disguise the heinous crimes that were the means to fulfilling his ends. Richard Interesting. Who wrote it? Best Kurt-Werner Pörtner. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cyrusgeo at netscape.net Tue Aug 3 17:26:01 2004 From: cyrusgeo at netscape.net (Cyrus) Date: Wed, 04 Aug 2004 01:26:01 +0300 Subject: GR III (Fast & Focused group read) In-Reply-To: <410FF2D1.22BC1048@earthlink.net> References: <410EF8EA.CCDC8ADD@earthlink.net> <007c01c47948$a14cfd00$0101a8c0@i7t2q2> <410FF2D1.22BC1048@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <411010F9.3020707@netscape.net> lycidas2 at earthlink.net wrote: >Remember, I think that we have an over abundance of Notes and Critical >Stuff in the archives. I'm proposing a more traditional "book club" or >group reading of the novel. > Would you please define "traditional" in this context? It's probably my fault, but I have no notion of the concept you're referring to. Cyrus From cyrusgeo at netscape.net Tue Aug 3 17:26:50 2004 From: cyrusgeo at netscape.net (Cyrus) Date: Wed, 04 Aug 2004 01:26:50 +0300 Subject: GR III (Fast & Focused group read) In-Reply-To: <410FF2D1.22BC1048@earthlink.net> References: <410EF8EA.CCDC8ADD@earthlink.net> <007c01c47948$a14cfd00$0101a8c0@i7t2q2> <410FF2D1.22BC1048@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <4110112A.4080807@netscape.net> lycidas2 at earthlink.net wrote: >Remember, I think that we have an over abundance of Notes and Critical >Stuff in the archives. I'm proposing a more traditional "book club" or >group reading of the novel. > Would you please define "traditional" in this context? It's probably my fault, but I have no notion of the concept you're referring to. Cyrus From monropolitan at yahoo.com Tue Aug 3 18:07:54 2004 From: monropolitan at yahoo.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2004 16:07:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: GR III (Fast & Focused group read) In-Reply-To: <410F037B.1080900@barrera.org> Message-ID: <20040803230754.20378.qmail@web50709.mail.yahoo.com> Well, I'd like to do the essays et al., but I'd also like to see just what Terrnace has to say, so ... --- "Joseph S. Barrera III" wrote: > Tim Strzechowski wrote: > > > Guess that makes three of us. > > ME TOO ... but I'm assuming nobody expects me actually to HOST anything that moves that quickly. Okay ... __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From yilim at yahoo.com Tue Aug 3 18:09:34 2004 From: yilim at yahoo.com (Sangkug Yi) Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2004 16:09:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: pynchon-l-digest V2 #3996 In-Reply-To: <200408030700.i7370DEJ006852@waste.org> Message-ID: <20040803230934.37099.qmail@web51002.mail.yahoo.com> Please just don't come to my country. ---- Terrance said... ---- while US men and women are shipped to these countries to defend them and rebuild them, yes, and __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From calbert at hslboxmaster.com Tue Aug 3 18:51:31 2004 From: calbert at hslboxmaster.com (charles f albert) Date: Tue, 03 Aug 2004 19:51:31 -0400 Subject: pynchon-l-digest V2 #3996 In-Reply-To: <20040803230934.37099.qmail@web51002.mail.yahoo.com> References: <200408030700.i7370DEJ006852@waste.org> <20040803230934.37099.qmail@web51002.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <6.0.1.1.1.20040803194546.01cf3cb0@66.70.75.180> Are you kidding? 12 varieties of herring, that nutty swiss cheese knock off thing you guys do, the red hot dogs, the fjords..... i'm getting into the gene pool of your leggy blondes in my mind as we speak.... love, cfa At 07:09 PM 8/3/2004, Sangkug Yi wrote: >Please just don't come to my country. > >---- Terrance said... ---- > >while US men and women >are shipped to these countries to defend them and >rebuild them, yes, >and > > > > >__________________________________ >Do you Yahoo!? >New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages! >http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From lycidas2 at earthlink.net Tue Aug 3 19:41:23 2004 From: lycidas2 at earthlink.net (Terrance) Date: Tue, 03 Aug 2004 20:41:23 -0400 Subject: GR III (Fast & Focused group read) References: <20040803230754.20378.qmail@web50709.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <411030B3.85F541D6@earthlink.net> Dave Monroe wrote: > > ... but I'm assuming nobody expects me actually to > HOST anything that moves that quickly. Okay ... I'm sure nobody expect you to Host. I'm sure most of us hope you will. Again, "a traditional book club" reading can move along because we won't do the extra/inter -- textual readings. We've done these ad nauseam. As far as the essays and the other minor stuff, I feel that we've given them their due. Seriously, most of what is on that list is hardly worth reading. From dchristensen at kooee.com.au Tue Aug 3 21:35:44 2004 From: dchristensen at kooee.com.au (David Christensen) Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2004 12:35:44 +1000 Subject: pynchon-l-digest V2 #3997 References: <200408032228.i73MS3h8006870@waste.org> Message-ID: <00b201c479cb$c0b62120$a3031bd3@oemcomputer> Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2004 11:14:52 -0700 (PDT) From: Dave Monroe Subject: The Witty Professor The Witty Professor: Sidney Morgenbesser Aug. 2, 2004 Columbia philosophy professor Sidney Morgenbesser died Sunday morning. Born in 1921, Morganbesser was famous for his wit. One well-remembered story about him regards an Oxford philosopher giving a speech at Columbia University 20 years ago. When the don said that in most languages two negatives make a positive, but in no language do two positives make a negative, Morganbesser refuted the point by waving his hand dismissively and saying, "Yeah, Yeah." ... Nice biting wit and sarcasm. A friend of mine used to simply say "good". When confronted with a vexing piece of, well shite, that he disagreed with, of course delivered with the correct inflection of disdain.. But "good, good" seems to change the effect entirely. My girlfriend uses "good, good" when she is an upbeat mood bordering on just better than good. The english language is a marvel is it not. Then again good with a slight pause in between and an emphasis on the second good might work. As in "good, yeah, good!!!!" I am in for a blitz on GR by the way. From ottosell at yahoo.de Wed Aug 4 08:23:02 2004 From: ottosell at yahoo.de (Otto) Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2004 15:23:02 +0200 Subject: GR III (Fast & Focused group read) References: <20040803230754.20378.qmail@web50709.mail.yahoo.com> <411030B3.85F541D6@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <005001c47a26$30fdc5a0$0101a8c0@i7t2q2> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Terrance" Cc: Sent: Wednesday, August 04, 2004 2:41 AM Subject: Re: GR III (Fast & Focused group read) > > As far as the essays and the other minor stuff, I feel that we've given > them their due. Seriously, most of what is on that list is hardly worth > reading. > One fine day I'll write an essay/analysis/defense on Pynchon's non-fictional texts and it will be entitled: "Thomas Pynchon: Those Shitty Essays" -- relying heavily on what's being said about them on "this" list. On topic: I'm for your proposal, Terrance, although I'm unacquainted with traditional "book club" readings. I'm not going to host a chapter because I'll need the time for reading the posts and following the discussion. Otto From davemarc at panix.com Wed Aug 4 09:36:44 2004 From: davemarc at panix.com (davemarc) Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2004 10:36:44 -0400 Subject: GR III (Fast & Focused group read) References: <410EF8EA.CCDC8ADD@earthlink.net> <007c01c47948$a14cfd00$0101a8c0@i7t2q2> <410FF2D1.22BC1048@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <004801c47a32$d77a81a0$2fc654a6@gmsc20b> I encourage the readers to try something other than the kind of line-by-line readings that have become the norm here. Sometimes it seems like the readings don't see the forest for the trees. I also encourage the participants to refrain from using insulting language with one another. d. From monropolitan at yahoo.com Wed Aug 4 10:16:46 2004 From: monropolitan at yahoo.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2004 08:16:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Ain't it Cool? Message-ID: <20040804151646.37224.qmail@web50708.mail.yahoo.com> The Village Voice Education Supplement: Fall 2004 by Benjamin Strong Ain't It Cool? August 3rd, 2004 1:20 PM The National Endowment for the Arts released a survey in July based on 2002 Census Bureau data that indicates just 56.6 percent of Americans had read a single book of any kind in the year prior. Yet, against a worldwide web of evidence to the contrary, many bookworms refuse to concede the diminished role of literature in a high-tech society. Alan Liu, a professor of English literature at UC-Santa Barbara, is not one of them. In his new book, The Laws of Cool: Knowledge Work and the Culture of Information (Chicago), Liu writes that "whether we should elegize or celebrate 'the death of literature' . . . is now beside the point." Literature in the last two decades has become a school subject unbound. The critical theory and identity politics that emerged in a more diverse American academy in the 1970s deconstructed the patriarchal fiction of a white-members-only canon, opening literary study to more than sweetly musty books. University English departments now play de facto host to a broader discipline of Cultural Studies, in which any object�a fanzine, a Volvo, a Balinese cockfight�is a set of signs that can be read and interpreted as a text. But when literature no longer possesses greater inherent value than any other text you can download from the Internet, then literature has become mere information. Liu writes in The Laws of Cool, "I went to sleep one day a cultural critic and woke the next metamorphosed into a data processor." The immigrant son of an engineer, and no Luddite reactionary, Liu doesn't want to regress the study of literature to its 1950s incarnation as a gentleman's sport. Although he's an expert in English Romanticism�his first book, Wordsworth: The Sense of History (1989), remains a must-read in that field�Liu was an early adopter of computers. "I bought an IBM PC, one of the first models they made, in 1982 dollars of $5,500 or something like that. And I was only making something like $11,000 that year," Liu tells the Voice. While continuing to guide confused undergraduates through the metaphysical walkabouts of The Prelude, Liu in 1994 designed Voice of the Shuttle (vos.ucsb.edu), an ambitious online humanities resource. He also began work on a book, about the relationship of information culture to literature, that would occupy him for a decade. "The more I wrote, however, the more I kept being blocked by the problem of�as I conceive of it now�a popular aesthetic, which is dominant and much more important than a literary aesthetic. I call it 'cool.' " When we talk about culture, we talk about whether or not something sucks. "No more beauty, sublimity, tragedy, grace, or evil: only cool or not cool," Liu writes. To reach disaffected students then, teachers have got to make literature cool. But that's no easy task. Children pick up what's cool and what isn't on the playground, but not inside a classroom. More than just a pose, cool, Liu writes, is a "parallel system of learning�or just as accurately, antilearning�that turns away from an educational system it believes represents dominant knowledge culture, toward a popular culture whose corporate and media conglomerates, ironically are dominant knowledge culture." In other words, universities used to be our primary interpreters of culture, and just when knowledge itself has become a valued commodity and the humanities ought to enjoy a golden age of relevance, the networked office has already purchased the monopoly on information and its brave new philosophy. One nation under an MBA president, "who prides himself on being incurious," Liu points out, our culture teems with the facile paradigms and dehumanizing rhetoric of downsizing. College administrators now insist as much as HMO executives on efficiency, even as they slash budgets, outsourcing labor to the higher-education version of the permanent temp, non-tenured faculty. For the rapidly growing blue-collar class of office drones, cool lurks as a "shadow ethos," rebelling in stolen moments of on-the-job Web surfing. What other choice does a worker have whose literal and metaphorical vision have been confined to a computer screen? "Contemporary slack . . . has nowhere to go to be itself. Its only recourse is to disguise itself within the processes, procedures, and techniques of information technology." Slack has its limits, and Liu thinks "it's time for the academy to have its say on the corporation and technology." In an information culture, the analytical skills developed by learning to read a book carefully are eye-openingly subversive. The Laws of Cool investigates contemporary management texts and reports that popular business theory unanimously emphasizes thinking outside the historical box. With innovation as its highest value, corporate culture advocates a quick march toward an ever progressive future. What the humanities offer in opposition, Liu argues, is the more nuanced, less optimistic perspective of history�"not of things created�the great, auratic artifacts treasured by a conservative or curatorial history�but of things destroyed in the name of creation." Liu's book offers thoughtful suggestions about how the humanities can reclaim their cultural authority. But foremost, he challenges his university colleagues to join writers and artists in an effort to ethically hack corporate technology. In the future, nothing will be more cool, he believes, than destroying information. If Liu's idea sounds suspiciously cyberpunk, it is. The science fiction writer William Gibson is more influential than Marx on Liu's radical manifesto. Literature is dead, but it's the specter haunting information. http://www.villagevoice.com/issues/0431/strong.php Liu, Alan. Wordsworth: The Sense of History. Stanford, CA: Stanford UP, 1989. http://www.sup.org/cgi-bin/search/book_desc.cgi?book_id=1373%201893 Liu, Alan. The Laws of Cool: Knowledge Work and the Culture of Information. Chicago: U of Chicago P, 2004. http://www.press.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/hfs.cgi/00/16122.ctl __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From r.romeo at atlanticphilanthropies.org Wed Aug 4 11:26:35 2004 From: r.romeo at atlanticphilanthropies.org (Richard Romeo) Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2004 12:26:35 -0400 Subject: Ain't it Cool? Message-ID: <55B62A3E95D99F4FBEC800D73AC2F2536EBCCF@jkrehely.local.atlanticphilanthropies.org> "In the future, nothing will be more cool, he believes, than destroying information." Sounds great, but less filling To mis-quote Mr Bob Marley: "them heads full, but still stupid" Richard -----Original Message----- From: owner-pynchon-l at waste.org [mailto:owner-pynchon-l at waste.org] On Behalf Of Dave Monroe Sent: Wednesday, August 04, 2004 11:17 AM To: pynchon-l at waste.org Subject: Ain't it Cool? The Village Voice Education Supplement: Fall 2004 by Benjamin Strong Ain't It Cool? August 3rd, 2004 1:20 PM From monropolitan at yahoo.com Wed Aug 4 11:40:00 2004 From: monropolitan at yahoo.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2004 09:40:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Voice of the Shuttle In-Reply-To: <20040804151646.37224.qmail@web50708.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20040804164000.55146.qmail@web50702.mail.yahoo.com> "Ambitious," by the way, is an understatement ... http://vos.ucsb.edu/ One of THEE great sites, lit'rary or otherwise ... --- Dave Monroe wrote: > > While continuing to guide confused undergraduates > through the metaphysical walkabouts of The Prelude, > Liu in 1994 designed Voice of the Shuttle > (vos.ucsb.edu), an ambitious online humanities > resource.... __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail � Now with 25x more storage than before! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From joe at barrera.org Wed Aug 4 11:43:14 2004 From: joe at barrera.org (Joseph S. Barrera III) Date: Wed, 04 Aug 2004 09:43:14 -0700 Subject: Ain't it Cool? In-Reply-To: <55B62A3E95D99F4FBEC800D73AC2F2536EBCCF@jkrehely.local.atlanticphilanthropies.org> References: <55B62A3E95D99F4FBEC800D73AC2F2536EBCCF@jkrehely.local.atlanticphilanthropies.org> Message-ID: <41111222.4050906@barrera.org> Richard Romeo [quoted]: > "In the future, nothing will be more cool, he believes, than > destroying information." But even Stephen Hawkings now agrees that you can't destroy information. - Joe -- Who's to blame when indexes really get out of hand? Who's to blame when data structures get poorly planned? From monropolitan at yahoo.com Wed Aug 4 13:22:31 2004 From: monropolitan at yahoo.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2004 11:22:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Ain't it Cool? In-Reply-To: <20040804151646.37224.qmail@web50708.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20040804182231.39506.qmail@web50709.mail.yahoo.com> http://www.thesimpsons.com/episode_guide/0814.htm http://www.snpp.com/episodes/4F12.html http://www.tvtome.com/tvtome/servlet/GuidePageServlet/showid-146/epid-1452/ > To reach disaffected students then, teachers have > got to make literature cool.... __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From monropolitan at yahoo.com Wed Aug 4 13:35:37 2004 From: monropolitan at yahoo.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2004 11:35:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Ain't it Cool? In-Reply-To: <41111222.4050906@barrera.org> Message-ID: <20040804183537.226.qmail@web50702.mail.yahoo.com> Information does not know extinction. All it knows is transformation ... --- "Joseph S. Barrera III" wrote: > > But even Stephen Hawkings now agrees that you can't > destroy information. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From monropolitan at yahoo.com Wed Aug 4 13:32:08 2004 From: monropolitan at yahoo.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2004 11:32:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: GR III (Fast & Focused group read) In-Reply-To: <411030B3.85F541D6@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <20040804183208.74458.qmail@web50710.mail.yahoo.com> No, i'm genuinely curious as to what will (and I do mean will) ensue. But I would like to do the, er, uncollected non-fiction as well. But I'll at least try to make good on my proposal for an interim MMV run-through. Even if I've lost the moment ... but once I see how that GR reading works, maybe I'll see an opportunity for me to host in kind. I'm thinking maybe that episode that begins with the cartoon dwarfs ("dwarves," I believe, is an idiosyncratically Tolkeinian spelling) riding vultures or whatever ... --- Terrance wrote: > > I'm sure nobody expect you to Host. > > I'm sure most of us hope you will. > > Again, "a traditional book club" reading can move > along because we won't do the extra/inter -- textual > readings. We've done these ad nauseam. Well, I've obviously never gotten sick of 'em, but ... __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail is new and improved - Check it out! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From vze422fs at verizon.net Wed Aug 4 17:05:21 2004 From: vze422fs at verizon.net (joeallonby) Date: Wed, 04 Aug 2004 18:05:21 -0400 Subject: Ain't it Cool? In-Reply-To: <20040804182231.39506.qmail@web50709.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Worst episode ever! You've learned an important lesson today, son : never try. on 8/4/04 2:22 PM, Dave Monroe at monropolitan at yahoo.com wrote: > http://www.thesimpsons.com/episode_guide/0814.htm > > http://www.snpp.com/episodes/4F12.html > > http://www.tvtome.com/tvtome/servlet/GuidePageServlet/showid-146/epid-1452/ > >> To reach disaffected students then, teachers have >> got to make literature cool.... > > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages! > http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From vze422fs at verizon.net Wed Aug 4 17:09:40 2004 From: vze422fs at verizon.net (joeallonby) Date: Wed, 04 Aug 2004 18:09:40 -0400 Subject: Voice of the Shuttle In-Reply-To: <20040804164000.55146.qmail@web50702.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Whoa! This is cool! Oh, no! We're geeks! on 8/4/04 12:40 PM, Dave Monroe at monropolitan at yahoo.com wrote: > "Ambitious," by the way, is an understatement ... > > http://vos.ucsb.edu/ > > One of THEE great sites, lit'rary or otherwise ... > > --- Dave Monroe wrote: >> >> While continuing to guide confused undergraduates >> through the metaphysical walkabouts of The Prelude, >> Liu in 1994 designed Voice of the Shuttle >> (vos.ucsb.edu), an ambitious online humanities >> resource.... > > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Mail ? Now with 25x more storage than before! > http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From Dedalus204 at comcast.net Wed Aug 4 19:13:32 2004 From: Dedalus204 at comcast.net (Tim Strzechowski) Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2004 19:13:32 -0500 Subject: Voice of the Shuttle References: Message-ID: <000b01c47a81$0ca498e0$838d0f18@adminln4hlpboo> I've used VoS as a research supplement in my classroom for the last few years. It's an outstanding site, but my only complaint is that its links are often dead (note, for example, how half the Pynchon links are not active). It's a site that can benefit from some regular maintenance, quite honestly. > Whoa! This is cool! > > Oh, no! We're geeks! > From ottosell at yahoo.de Wed Aug 4 19:24:35 2004 From: ottosell at yahoo.de (Otto) Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2004 02:24:35 +0200 Subject: Voice of the Shuttle References: <20040804164000.55146.qmail@web50702.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <001001c47a82$978aa700$0101a8c0@i7t2q2> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave Monroe" To: "Dave Monroe" ; Sent: Wednesday, August 04, 2004 6:40 PM Subject: Voice of the Shuttle > "Ambitious," by the way, is an understatement ... > > http://vos.ucsb.edu/ > > One of THEE great sites, lit'rary or otherwise ... > > --- Dave Monroe wrote: > > > > While continuing to guide confused undergraduates > > through the metaphysical walkabouts of The Prelude, > > Liu in 1994 designed Voice of the Shuttle > > (vos.ucsb.edu), an ambitious online humanities > > resource.... > Todorov explains the process thus: "In a world which is indeed our world, the one we know, a world without devils, sylphides, or vampires, there occurs an event which cannot be explained by the laws of this same familiar world. The person who experiences the event must opt for one of two possible solutions: either he is the victim of an illusion of the senses, of a product of the imagination--and laws of the world then remain what they are; or else the event has indeed taken place, it is an integral part of reality--but then this reality is controlled by laws unknown to us." Jack G. Voller, "Todorov among the Gothics: Structuring the Supernatural Moment," Contours of the Fantastic: Selected Essays from the Eighth International Conference on the Fantastic in the Arts, ed. Michele K. Langford, (New York: Greenwood Press, 1987): 197-206. http://www.engl.virginia.edu/enec981/Group/liz.sublime.html#voller2 From Dedalus204 at comcast.net Wed Aug 4 19:30:26 2004 From: Dedalus204 at comcast.net (Tim Strzechowski) Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2004 19:30:26 -0500 Subject: Ain't it Cool? References: <20040804182231.39506.qmail@web50709.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <002f01c47a83$68e3cac0$838d0f18@adminln4hlpboo> I have nothing against The Simpsons. Its satire is sharp and quick, and it's one of the few truly cerebral events on the Tube each week (which says a lot about our society). However, I think it's often easy to oversimplify its relevance to schoolchildren, and many younger teachers, weaned on The Simpsons from their own childhood, tend to use episodes in the classroom hither and yon (the episode on "The Raven," the one on "Lord of the Flies," blah blah blah) to supplement instruction, sometimes forgetting that we need not follow-up every reading experience with a Simpsons episode! Making literature hip and cool and neat-o, man! is fine, but *especially* in this age of No Child Left Behind and stress on reading scores (and now the writing section of state testing in IL has been dropped!), teachers need to make kids read. Read. Read complex literature. Turn off the VCR and read. > http://www.thesimpsons.com/episode_guide/0814.htm > > http://www.snpp.com/episodes/4F12.html > > http://www.tvtome.com/tvtome/servlet/GuidePageServlet/showid-146/epid-1452/ > > > To reach disaffected students then, teachers have > > got to make literature cool.... > Literature can be made cool without making it a TV event, tho. From pynchonoid at yahoo.com Wed Aug 4 21:25:31 2004 From: pynchonoid at yahoo.com (pynchonoid) Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2004 19:25:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: GR III (Fast & Focused group read) In-Reply-To: <20040804183208.74458.qmail@web50710.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20040805022531.46922.qmail@web40711.mail.yahoo.com> Only 5 pages/day? Surely we can get through a novel everybody here has read multiple times at a rate closer to 5 minutes/page. Meanwhile, Ron Reagan rips Bush a new one, worth reading at http://www.commondreams.org/views04/0804-14.htm ===== http://pynchonoid.org "everything connects" http://neoconservadroid.org "android warriors of the right" __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From vze422fs at verizon.net Wed Aug 4 22:06:57 2004 From: vze422fs at verizon.net (joeallonby) Date: Wed, 04 Aug 2004 23:06:57 -0400 Subject: Ain't it Cool? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: It should not be necessary to make great literature cool in order to teach it to young people. Great literature is already cool. Sometimes young people are not ready for great literature and should be allowed to come to it in their own good time. This reminds me of some of my lesser music teachers who tried to force feed Baroque music to kids by comparing it to pop music for which they feigned enthusiasm though they obviously despised it. The results were often hilarious. "Does this idiot really think that we actually like Billy Fucking Joel when we listen to the Velvet Underground and X?" Condescending to the tastes of youth in order to enlighten them is often embarrassing at best and disastrous at worst. From vze422fs at verizon.net Wed Aug 4 22:23:33 2004 From: vze422fs at verizon.net (joeallonby) Date: Wed, 04 Aug 2004 23:23:33 -0400 Subject: GR III (Fast & Focused group read) In-Reply-To: <20040805022531.46922.qmail@web40711.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: on 8/4/04 10:25 PM, pynchonoid at pynchonoid at yahoo.com wrote: > Meanwhile, Ron Reagan rips Bush a new one, worth > reading at > http://www.commondreams.org/views04/0804-14.htm Amazing that this appears in a Hearst publication. From ottosell at yahoo.de Thu Aug 5 08:18:35 2004 From: ottosell at yahoo.de (Otto) Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2004 15:18:35 +0200 Subject: NP new website Message-ID: <003101c47aee$b7d7e100$0101a8c0@i7t2q2> Welcome to poparchive.net! We are an archive conducting interviews with people who have made popular culture history. Here we will inform you about our latest interviews and any other items of interest. http://www.poparchive.net/content_e/index_e.htm From pynchonoid at yahoo.com Thu Aug 5 11:15:24 2004 From: pynchonoid at yahoo.com (pynchonoid) Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2004 09:15:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: new book Message-ID: <20040805161524.75828.qmail@web40701.mail.yahoo.com> from the publisher's press release: The Great Beyond - Higher Dimensions, Parallel Universes and the Extraordinary Search for a Theory of Everything by Paul Halpern Publication Date 01 September 2004 ISBN 047146595X The concept of multiple unperceived dimensions in the universe is one of the hottest topics in contemporary physics. It is essential to current attempts to explain gravity and the underlying structure of the universe. The history of how such an unfathomable concept has risen to prominence takes centre stage in The Great Beyond. The story begins with Einstein's famous quarrel with Heisenberg and Bohr, whose theories of uncertainty threatened the order Einstein believed was essential to the universe, and it was his rejection of uncertainty that drove him to ponder the existence of a fifth dimension. Beginning with this famous disagreement and culminating with an explanation of the newest "brane" approach, author Paul Halpern shows how current debates about the nature of reality began as age-old controversies, and will address how the possibility of higher dimensions has influenced culture over the past one hundred years (visiting the work of H.G. Wells, Salvador Dali and others). see also: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/047146595X/qid=1091722437/sr=ka-1/ref=pd_ka_1/103-1751894-1814263 ===== http://pynchonoid.org "everything connects" http://neoconservadroid.org "android warriors of the right" __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From pynchonoid at yahoo.com Thu Aug 5 12:07:23 2004 From: pynchonoid at yahoo.com (pynchonoid) Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2004 10:07:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: article re SDS co-founders at Counterpunch.org Message-ID: <20040805170723.62922.qmail@web40706.mail.yahoo.com> ...of interest, perhaps, to readers who tried to map Vineland's political geography to hbistorical movements: August 5, 2004 Doing Time for Political Crime Paul and Silas, Bound in Jail By PETER LINEBAUGH http://www.counterpunch.org/ ===== http://pynchonoid.org "everything connects" http://neoconservadroid.org "android warriors of the right" __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From monropolitan at yahoo.com Thu Aug 5 13:19:34 2004 From: monropolitan at yahoo.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2004 11:19:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Ain't it Cool? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040805181934.31460.qmail@web50704.mail.yahoo.com> Well, I think part of the point is, don't make it something they HAVE to do, a chore, something's that's "good for them," et al., but, rather, have it be something you do because it's something TO do. Your point is well taken, but it's certianly NOT a matter of faith for the vast majority of These Kids Today. I would point out that, as a young 'un, I was never made to eat spinach or brussels sprouts or whatever, and now actually love 'em (to the point, for example, of always ordering goma ae with every Japanese meal), whereas I had a particularly traumatic childhood cheesecake experience that, well, I might have been better off never getting over, but ... --- joeallonby wrote: > It should not be necessary to make great literature > cool in order to teach it to young people. > > Great literature is already cool. But this is also true ... > Sometimes young people are not ready for great > literature and should be allowed to come to it in > their own good time. I only "got into" Great Lit'rachure in my (largely wasted, both me and them) college years, but it didn't hurt that, I don't know, "intellectual pursuits" were hardly ever > This reminds me of some of my lesser music teachers > who tried to force feed Baroque music to kids by > comparing it to pop music for which they feigned > enthusiasm though they obviously despised it.... Well, I grew up with Bach and Mozart and ..., but only really appreciated any of it after I got into The Beatles (think, "In My Life," "Piggies," et al.--by the way, the Danger Mouse "Gray Album" remix of "Piggies" brings tears of joy to my eyes) ... > The results were often hilarious. "Does this idiot > really think that we actually like Billy Fucking > Joel when we listen to the Velvet Underground and > X?" I regularly consult with a professor who teaches popular culture in the sense of, the culture of the people (his specialty is flamenco), and have to set him straight on, well, pop culture, though I ahrdly know what These Kids Today are into, either. I've picked up all of a half-dozen records (and I call 'em records) actually recorded in the 21st century since 1/1/01, so ... > Condescending to the tastes of youth in order to > enlighten them is often embarrassing at best and > disastrous at worst. But, again, see above. One of our favorite professors was a guy who, whilst teaching everything from Classical to comparative to Existential to Expressionist to Scandanavian to ... lit'rachure (not to mention theory ...), would cover everything from Kris Kristofferson to "The" Motley Crue along the way as well (my dream reading list, on various "Directions in the Novel" or whatever, though the class was offered well after my time: Mrs. Dalloway, In Evil Hour, Pale Fire, Vineland, Pulp Fiction, among others). Sure, not the hippest names to drop, but the effort was appreciated, and the points were generally spot on and, again, well taken ... __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From Dedalus204 at comcast.net Thu Aug 5 13:27:27 2004 From: Dedalus204 at comcast.net (Tim Strzechowski) Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2004 13:27:27 -0500 Subject: Ain't it Cool? References: <20040805181934.31460.qmail@web50704.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <001e01c47b19$de58fff0$838d0f18@adminln4hlpboo> > whereas I had a particularly traumatic childhood > cheesecake experience that, well, I might have been > better off never getting over, but ... > Coulda been worse. I heard some guy once dipped a madeline in tea, and, well . . . From monropolitan at yahoo.com Thu Aug 5 13:27:35 2004 From: monropolitan at yahoo.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2004 11:27:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Ain't it Cool? In-Reply-To: <002f01c47a83$68e3cac0$838d0f18@adminln4hlpboo> Message-ID: <20040805182735.34173.qmail@web50704.mail.yahoo.com> Uh, the point was more, the satire of a misdirectedly market-driven notion of "relevance," but ... --- Tim Strzechowski wrote: > I have nothing against The Simpsons.... __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From monropolitan at yahoo.com Thu Aug 5 13:29:49 2004 From: monropolitan at yahoo.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2004 11:29:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Voice of the Shuttle In-Reply-To: <000b01c47a81$0ca498e0$838d0f18@adminln4hlpboo> Message-ID: <20040805182949.34846.qmail@web50704.mail.yahoo.com> Important: the new VoS is still a work in progress, but we have turned it on because it is already more functional than the original site. There are still some mis-orderings of categories and author names that we are fixing as we convert our legacy resources. We've also temporarily removed as many of the broken links as we could find and will restore them when we can (or find substitutes). Some categories have thus been temporarily decimated. If Michel Foucault wrote about The Order of Things, then VoS may be said to be about "the ordering of things"�the ceaseless reconfiguration of humanities knowledge assisted by the new technologies of dynamic information.... http://vos.ucsb.edu/ --- Tim Strzechowski wrote: > It's an outstanding site, but my only complaint is > that its links are often dead [...]. It's a site > that can benefit from some regular maintenance, > quite honestly. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From monropolitan at yahoo.com Thu Aug 5 13:32:22 2004 From: monropolitan at yahoo.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2004 11:32:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Ain't it Cool? In-Reply-To: <001e01c47b19$de58fff0$838d0f18@adminln4hlpboo> Message-ID: <20040805183222.36102.qmail@web50702.mail.yahoo.com> 'Zat what the kids are calling it these days? --- Tim Strzechowski wrote: > I heard some guy once dipped a madeline in tea, > and, well . . . __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From pynchonoid at yahoo.com Thu Aug 5 14:07:26 2004 From: pynchonoid at yahoo.com (pynchonoid) Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2004 12:07:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: DFW, boiled lobsters Message-ID: <20040805190726.85759.qmail@web40702.mail.yahoo.com> Lobster tale lands writer in hot water By Alex Beam, Globe Columnist �|� August 5, 2004 Imagine that you are the editor of Gourmet magazine and you nail down the allusive and sometimes incomprehensible David Foster Wallace ("probably the most important novelist of his generation" -- The Boston Globe) to write an article for you. The two of you bat around a few ideas and you settle on � the Maine Lobster Festival. ...continues: http://www.boston.com/news/globe/living/articles/2004/08/05/lobster_tale_lands_writer_in_hot_water/ ===== http://pynchonoid.org "everything connects" http://neoconservadroid.org "android warriors of the right" __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - You care about security. So do we. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From r.romeo at atlanticphilanthropies.org Thu Aug 5 14:35:07 2004 From: r.romeo at atlanticphilanthropies.org (Richard Romeo) Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2004 15:35:07 -0400 Subject: DFW, boiled lobsters-- Message-ID: <55B62A3E95D99F4FBEC800D73AC2F2536EBCF9@nyc1a.local.atlanticphilanthropies.org> I suppose one could just read Beckett's Dante and the Lobster And fuck the footnotes. --A quick death, God help us all It is Not! That's all one needs to know in this world I guess rich -----Original Message----- From: owner-pynchon-l at waste.org [mailto:owner-pynchon-l at waste.org] On Behalf Of pynchonoid Sent: Thursday, August 05, 2004 3:07 PM To: Pynchon-L Subject: DFW, boiled lobsters Lobster tale lands writer in hot water By Alex Beam, Globe Columnist  |  August 5, 2004 Imagine that you are the editor of Gourmet magazine and you nail down the allusive and sometimes incomprehensible David Foster Wallace ("probably the most important novelist of his generation" -- The Boston Globe) to write an article for you. The two of you bat around a few ideas and you settle on ... the Maine Lobster Festival. ...continues: http://www.boston.com/news/globe/living/articles/2004/08/05/lobster_tale_lands_writer_in_hot_water/ ===== http://pynchonoid.org "everything connects" http://neoconservadroid.org "android warriors of the right" __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - You care about security. So do we. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From lycidas2 at earthlink.net Thu Aug 5 16:03:36 2004 From: lycidas2 at earthlink.net (Terrance) Date: Thu, 05 Aug 2004 17:03:36 -0400 Subject: GR III (Fast & Focused group read) References: <20040804183208.74458.qmail@web50710.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4112A0A8.F6B32A51@earthlink.net> Dave Monroe wrote: > > No, i'm genuinely curious as to what will (and I do > mean will) ensue. Me too, but genuine curiosity does not a group read make. We talked about it for a week. That's long enough. I'm aborting. And unsubscribing again. Please contact me if you all decide to read GR again. The TPPM stuff doesn't interest me. Looks like that stuff will serve as bottom fishing hook for the List till Spring. Later, T From Dedalus204 at comcast.net Thu Aug 5 16:12:08 2004 From: Dedalus204 at comcast.net (Tim Strzechowski) Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2004 16:12:08 -0500 Subject: NP: Life Imitates Art Message-ID: <003201c47b30$df59afa0$838d0f18@adminln4hlpboo> "Some Democrats seeking Cheney tickets had to sign oath" RIO RANCHO, N.M. (AP) - Some Democrats who wanted to hear Vice President Dick Cheney speak in Rio Rancho were refused tickets Thursday unless they signed a pledge to endorse President Bush. [...] http://www.kobtv.com/index.cfm?viewer=storyviewer&id=12699&cat=ABQMETRO "The Glorious Loyalty Oath Crusade": Almost overnight the Glorious Loyalty Oath Crusade was in full flower, and Captain Black was enraptured to discover himself spearheading it. He had really hit on something. All the enlisted men and officers on combat duty had to sign a loyalty oath to get their map cases from the intelligence tent, a second loyalty oath to receive their flak suits and parachutes from the parachute tent, a third loyalty oath for Lieutenant Balkington, the motor vehicle officer, to be allowed to ride from the squadron to the airfield in one of the trucks. Every time they turned around there was another loyalty oath to be signed.They signed a loyalty oath to get their pay from the finance officer, to obtain their PX supplies, to have their hair cut by the Italian barbers. To Captain Black, every officer who supported his Glorious Loyalty Oath Crusade was a competitor, and he planned and plotted twnety-four hours a day to keep one step ahead. He would stand second to none in his devotion to country. When other officers had followed his urging and introduced loyalty oaths of their own, he went them one better by making every son of a bitch who came to his intelligence tent sign two loyalty oaths, then three, then four; then he introduced the pledge of allegiance, and after that "The Star-Spangled Banner," one chorus, two choruses, three choruses, four choruses. Each time Captain Black forged ahead of his competitors, he swung upon them scornfully for their failure to follow his example. Each time they followed his example, he retreated with concern and racked his brain for some new strategem that would enable him to turn upon them scornfully again. Without realizing how it had come about, the combat men in the squandron discovered themselves dominated by the administrators appointed to serve them. They were bullied, insulted, harassed and shoved about all day long by one after the other. When they voiced objection, Captain Black replied that people who were loyal would not mind signing all the loyalty oaths they had to. To anyone who questioned the effectiveness of the loyalty oaths, he replied that people who really did owe allegiance to their country would be proud to pledge it as often as he forced them to. And to anyone who questioned the morality, he replied that "The Star-Spangled Banner" was the greatest piece of music ever composed. The more loyalty oaths a person signed, the more loyal he was; to Captain Black it was as simple as that, and he had Corporal Kolodny sign hundreds with his name each day so that he could always prove he was more loyal than anyone else. "The important thing is to keep them pledging," he explained to his cohorts. "It doesn't matter whether they mean it or not. That's why they make little kids pledge allegiance even before they know what 'pledge' and 'allegiance' mean." --Joseph Heller p. 122-123 of Catch-22 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Dedalus204 at comcast.net Thu Aug 5 16:26:15 2004 From: Dedalus204 at comcast.net (Tim Strzechowski) Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2004 16:26:15 -0500 Subject: GR III (Fast & Focused group read) aborted ... References: <20040804183208.74458.qmail@web50710.mail.yahoo.com> <4112A0A8.F6B32A51@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <004001c47b32$d8b09950$838d0f18@adminln4hlpboo> I guess I'm not exactly sure what you were hoping would happen, Terrance. You piqued the interest of several listers (about 7 or so including me, or at least those who chose to respond), but we didn't see any effort put into organizing said interest into the start of an actual group read (i.e., a schedule, a proposed date to begin, etc.). Did you think someone was gonna do it for you? Get us rollin', man! Personally, I'd hate to see you leave (again?), but if you must, you must. Just seems like you're pulling out a bit prematurely. > > Me too, but genuine curiosity does not a group read make. We talked > about it for a week. > That's long enough. I'm aborting. And unsubscribing again. Please > contact me if > you all decide to read GR again. > The TPPM stuff doesn't interest me. Looks like that stuff will serve as > bottom fishing hook for the List till Spring. > With so much dismissal on your part of the merit of these essays and such, I'm more interested than ever to read 'em for myself and judge accordingly. From monropolitan at yahoo.com Thu Aug 5 18:14:50 2004 From: monropolitan at yahoo.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2004 16:14:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: GR III (Fast & Focused group read) aborted ... In-Reply-To: <004001c47b32$d8b09950$838d0f18@adminln4hlpboo> Message-ID: <20040805231450.7043.qmail@web50710.mail.yahoo.com> All mouth, no hit, as the grade school football coach I neevr had might have said. No, this is typical, bitch about what is or isn't going on, but make no move even to demonstrate just what might allegedly be preferable. And I was kinda sorta hoping to see Terrnace deliver this time 'round. Yeah, I'm one to procrastinate myself, albeit not typically indefinitely, but ... but I don't blame anyone here for that, that's for sure ... Terrance wanted to start off a rollercoaster ride through Gravity's Raibow, but he didn't even bother to sidle up to the "You must be this tall" sign before winding his way under the rails and right on out through the turnstiles, instead of jumping in the first car and hanging on for the ride. Hope he rememebered where the folks parked their car, at least ... okay, taht was at LEAST as exhausting for me as it was tedious for you all, but ... Genuninely curious, indeed. Except for the ultimate non-result ... --- Tim Strzechowski wrote: > I guess I'm not exactly sure what you were hoping > would happen, Terrance. > > > Me too, but genuine curiosity does not a group > > read make. We talked about it for a week. That's > > long enough. I'm aborting. And unsubscribing > > again. Please contact me if you all decide to > > read GR again.... __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From himself at richardryan.com Thu Aug 5 19:15:52 2004 From: himself at richardryan.com (Himself) Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2004 20:15:52 -0400 Subject: TPPM Host List Reminder & Update In-Reply-To: <000e01c478c7$48dcc730$838d0f18@adminln4hlpboo> Message-ID: I'm back myself after having been away for a little while. I'll take the intro to "Been Down So Long" if no one else has already taken it. RR -----Original Message----- From: owner-pynchon-l at waste.org [mailto:owner-pynchon-l at waste.org]On Behalf Of Tim Strzechowski Sent: Monday, August 02, 2004 3:31 PM To: Pynchon-L Subject: TPPM Host List Reminder & Update While we await someone putting together a GR hosting schedule, this is just a reminder to you all. I'll grab one while they're still good for the grabbin', but if someone has his/her heart set on that Sloth article, let me know. Reserve one while you can, folks! Aug. 9 - Aug. 22: "Mortality and Mercy in Vienna" (1959) -- Dave Monroe Aug. 23 - Sept. 5: "Togetherness" (1960) -- Sept. 6 - Sept. 19: "The Gift" (1965) -- Sept. 20 - Oct. 3: "A Journey into the Mind of Watts" (1966) -- Oct. 4 - Oct. 17: Intro to Been Down So Long ... (1983) -- Oct. 18 - Oct. 31: "Is it O.K. to Be a Luddite?" (1984) -- Joseph Tracy Nov. 1 - Nov. 14: "The Heart's Eternal Vow" (1988) -- Nov. 15 - Nov. 28: Intro to The Writings of Donald Barthelme (1992) -- Nov. 29 - Dec. 12: "Nearer, My Couch, to Thee" (1993) -- Tim Strzechowski ** Assuming most folks will want a holiday hiatus until the new year ... ** Jan. 3 - Jan. 16: Spike Jones Liner Notes (1994) -- Jan 17 - Jan. 23: Lotion Liner Notes (1995) -- Jan. 24 - Feb. 6: Intro to Stone Junction (1997) -- Feb. 7 - Feb. 20: Intro to 1984 (2003) -- Joseph Tracy -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lycidas2 at earthlink.net Thu Aug 5 19:47:03 2004 From: lycidas2 at earthlink.net (Terrance) Date: Thu, 05 Aug 2004 20:47:03 -0400 Subject: GR III (Fast & Focused group read) aborted ... References: <20040804183208.74458.qmail@web50710.mail.yahoo.com> <4112A0A8.F6B32A51@earthlink.net> <004001c47b32$d8b09950$838d0f18@adminln4hlpboo> Message-ID: <4112D507.6A2CC117@earthlink.net> Tim, there is not enough interest at this time. Setting up a host list doesn't get the ball rolling. Neither does hosting the first chapter. I'm willing to do both, but it seems an exercise in futility. We talked about the title of the novel. We discussed the Werner von Braun quote. We heard from some of our most active participants. But when I proposed that we start reading the novel there was very little interest. For me, this August happens to be an ideal time to start a big fat group reading of GR. However, I suspect that many of our fellow P-listers are on holiday, busy reading other door-stoppers, whatever. So, since you have the TPPM ready to go, why not start it and see how it goes. As far as GR goes, I think we need at least 10 committed readers and right now we have only one. That's me. Monroe has the biggest baseball card collection on the block but he doesn't even no how to hold a bat. Here's lokin at you Chuck, Peppermint Patty From joe at barrera.org Thu Aug 5 20:32:45 2004 From: joe at barrera.org (Joseph S. Barrera III) Date: Thu, 05 Aug 2004 18:32:45 -0700 Subject: GR III (Fast & Focused group read) aborted ... In-Reply-To: <4112D507.6A2CC117@earthlink.net> References: <20040804183208.74458.qmail@web50710.mail.yahoo.com> <4112A0A8.F6B32A51@earthlink.net> <004001c47b32$d8b09950$838d0f18@adminln4hlpboo> <4112D507.6A2CC117@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <4112DFBD.9020402@barrera.org> Terrance wrote: > and see how it goes. As far as GR goes, I think we need at least 10 > committed readers and right now we have only one. That's me. What??? Why don't I count? I'm going to read the damn thing even if there is no group read. So there. - Joe From joe at barrera.org Thu Aug 5 20:35:27 2004 From: joe at barrera.org (Joseph S. Barrera III) Date: Thu, 05 Aug 2004 18:35:27 -0700 Subject: GR III (Fast & Focused group read) aborted ... + 8/6/45 In-Reply-To: <4112D507.6A2CC117@earthlink.net> References: <20040804183208.74458.qmail@web50710.mail.yahoo.com> <4112A0A8.F6B32A51@earthlink.net> <004001c47b32$d8b09950$838d0f18@adminln4hlpboo> <4112D507.6A2CC117@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <4112E05F.9000306@barrera.org> Terrance wrote: > We talked about the title of the novel. And speaking of the title of the novel, check out this rainbow-shaped bomb-related item: Tomorrow 8/6 is the 59th anniversary. - Joe From lycidas2 at earthlink.net Thu Aug 5 20:33:21 2004 From: lycidas2 at earthlink.net (Terrance) Date: Thu, 05 Aug 2004 21:33:21 -0400 Subject: GR III (Fast & Focused group read) aborted ... References: <20040805231450.7043.qmail@web50710.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4112DFE1.A79A1EA0@earthlink.net> I see no reason to stand up at the podium and lecture an empty hall. I'm not a member of Congress. I'm trying to promote a progressive and democratic reading of Pynchon's GR. One that is collaborative, open to a pluralistic reading, yet focused on the text. It seems to me that we can read the novel quicker than we have in the past because we've been through it a couple-few times and we have extensive notes and research archived. However, it won't be easy. What I'm asking people to do is not easy. What do I mean by a traditional group reading or reading club reading of GR? We will focus all our attention on the one text we have in common right now. We will read the book. We will discuss the characters, the themes, conflicts, settings, the literary elements and so on. We won't put every word through the Google machine or under the microscope. Nothing wrong with this, or course. It's just not what we are going to do this time around. We will need to respect our fellow readers. As we make our personal experience with the text public, we all need to do so without fear of being ridiculed or attacked. We can have fun and play nice. I'll host any section of GR if I can do it between now and September 13th. From lycidas2 at earthlink.net Thu Aug 5 20:42:13 2004 From: lycidas2 at earthlink.net (Terrance) Date: Thu, 05 Aug 2004 21:42:13 -0400 Subject: GR III (Fast & Focused group read) aborted ... References: <20040804183208.74458.qmail@web50710.mail.yahoo.com> <4112A0A8.F6B32A51@earthlink.net> <004001c47b32$d8b09950$838d0f18@adminln4hlpboo> <4112D507.6A2CC117@earthlink.net> <4112DFBD.9020402@barrera.org> Message-ID: <4112E1F5.191FBEB3@earthlink.net> Rub ah Dub ah Do Hey Fred, That makes Two! Rubber Dub Dub A Grimm Tale in a Tub One plus Dave and Tim and You That's the fourth fit its fondness for bathing-machines, Which it constantly carries about, And believes that they add to the beauty of scenes-- A sentiment open to doubt. "Joseph S. Barrera III" wrote: > > Terrance wrote: > > > and see how it goes. As far as GR goes, I think we need at least 10 > > committed readers and right now we have only one. That's me. > > What??? Why don't I count? I'm going to read the damn thing even > if there is no group read. So there. > > - Joe From lupine at ncia.net Thu Aug 5 21:08:14 2004 From: lupine at ncia.net (Scott Badger) Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2004 22:08:14 -0400 Subject: Rockland Lobster References: <20040805190726.85759.qmail@web40702.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <006701c47b5a$3bf03e90$51031845@DG2YWP41> > Imagine that you are the editor of Gourmet magazine > and you nail down the allusive and sometimes > incomprehensible David Foster Wallace ("probably the > most important novelist of his generation" -- The > Boston Globe) to write an article for you. The two of > you bat around a few ideas and you settle on . the > Maine Lobster Festival. ...yeah, but Fred Schneider doing anti-homaricide radio spots to protest the MLF a few years ago has gotta score way higher on the irony meter....anyhow, talk's cheap; if these guys want some real respect, let's see 'em pull some traps..... Scott From Dedalus204 at comcast.net Thu Aug 5 21:40:22 2004 From: Dedalus204 at comcast.net (Tim Strzechowski) Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2004 21:40:22 -0500 Subject: GR III (Fast & Focused group read) aborted ... References: <20040805231450.7043.qmail@web50710.mail.yahoo.com> <4112DFE1.A79A1EA0@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <001601c47b5e$ba576b10$838d0f18@adminln4hlpboo> As I said, I'm interested. If you're looking for more commitment than an "I'm interested" in an e-community, I don't know what else one can do. Be assured: I'm interested. Part of the problem as I see it is that, as "progressive and democratic" as you make this seem, I ... just ... don't see how it's logistically supposed to fall into place in this forum. Is there a host? Hosts? Do we divide the text into sections? or discuss the novel holistically? You've mentioned a pacing of 5 pages per day. When does that begin? Who facilitates the discussion(s)? In addition, there are people on the List who haven't been part of the previous readings as they unfolded; those of us on the list who *have* experienced a previous GR read might know what this one *won't* be (according to your definition), but what about the new listers? There are questions of logistics for HOW this reading might take place that I can't "see" yet, but maybe that's me and my learning style. Help me see it. If our "most active participants" don't seem interested, I consider it a blessing. A group reading of GR with some new blood might make it a refreshing experience for everyone involved. As far as "respecting our fellow readers," that's a lost cause. There are far too many people on this list who delight in petty flaming (and screen name anonymity makes it easy enough to do without recourse), far too many others who justify its existence in this forum, and far too many worthwhile listers who've been scorched by the flames over the years, for this statement to be anything more than empty rhetoric. Sorry. Terrance, if you want to see this reading work (and I hope your money is as good as your word), I recommend you do another head count; help us see how this reading will transpire over a chunk of time (i.e., sections, pages, hosts, topics, whatever you are suggesting), and perhaps model the opening section so some of us can SEE how it might go. And for the record, I'm interested. But I can't commit to GR when I'm hosting my fortnight of TPPM (early Dec.). Respectfully, Tim From Dedalus204 at comcast.net Thu Aug 5 21:56:53 2004 From: Dedalus204 at comcast.net (Tim Strzechowski) Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2004 21:56:53 -0500 Subject: TPPM Host List Update Message-ID: <000c01c47b61$0864e290$838d0f18@adminln4hlpboo> Aug. 9 - Aug. 22: "Mortality and Mercy in Vienna" (1959) -- Dave Monroe Aug. 23 - Sept. 5: "Togetherness" (1960) -- Sept. 6 - Sept. 19: "The Gift" (1965) -- Sept. 20 - Oct. 3: "A Journey into the Mind of Watts" (1966) -- Oct. 4 - Oct. 17: Intro to Been Down So Long ... (1983) -- Himself (R.R.) Oct. 18 - Oct. 31: "Is it O.K. to Be a Luddite?" (1984) -- Joseph Tracy Nov. 1 - Nov. 14: "The Heart's Eternal Vow" (1988) -- Nov. 15 - Nov. 28: Intro to The Writings of Donald Barthelme (1992) -- Nov. 29 - Dec. 12: "Nearer, My Couch, to Thee" (1993) -- Tim Strzechowski ** Assuming most folks will want a holiday hiatus until the new year ... ** Jan. 3 - Jan. 16: Spike Jones Liner Notes (1994) -- Jan 17 - Jan. 23: Lotion Liner Notes (1995) -- Jan. 24 - Feb. 6: Intro to Stone Junction (1997) -- Feb. 7 - Feb. 20: Intro to 1984 (2003) -- Joseph Tracy -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lycidas2 at earthlink.net Fri Aug 6 05:43:18 2004 From: lycidas2 at earthlink.net (Terrance) Date: Fri, 06 Aug 2004 06:43:18 -0400 Subject: GR III (Fast & Focused group read) aborted ... References: <20040805231450.7043.qmail@web50710.mail.yahoo.com> <4112DFE1.A79A1EA0@earthlink.net> <001601c47b5e$ba576b10$838d0f18@adminln4hlpboo> Message-ID: <411360C6.BA9350F9@earthlink.net> Tim Strzechowski wrote: > > As I said, I'm interested. If you're looking for more commitment than an > "I'm interested" in an e-community, I don't know what else one can do. Be > assured: I'm interested. Must be the Marine in me, but I'm looking for 10-12 good readers. That's not a unreasonable expectation. > > Part of the problem as I see it is that, as "progressive and democratic" as > you make this seem, I ... just ... don't see how it's logistically supposed > to fall into place in this forum. Is there a host? Hosts? Yes. Do we divide > the text into sections? Yes or discuss the novel holistically? No. We won't need a spoiler clause, but we won't skip around. You've > mentioned a pacing of 5 pages per day. When does that begin? >From the Beginning. I'm ready to go. But we need more bodies. Who > facilitates the discussion(s)? If need be, I will. But we do it the way have in the past. The difference is that we will move faster and focus on one text. Hosts will not do research and post notes and links. Instead, they will facilitate a discussion of the text itself. In addition, there are people on the List > who haven't been part of the previous readings as they unfolded; those of us > on the list who *have* experienced a previous GR read might know what this > one *won't* be (according to your definition), but what about the new > listers? They are probably smart. They will get it after a few days. > > There are questions of logistics for HOW this reading might take place that > I can't "see" yet, but maybe that's me and my learning style. Help me see > it. You're a teacher, right? I'm going to model the activity. Then, each host will work on their part and share-out with the larger group. > > If our "most active participants" don't seem interested, I consider it a > blessing. A group reading of GR with some new blood might make it a > refreshing experience for everyone involved. New blood is good. Old blood is is good too. And we have both. We need both. > > As far as "respecting our fellow readers," that's a lost cause. I disagree. A fast and focused read will eliminate most of the bullshit. There are > far too many people on this list who delight in petty flaming (and screen > name anonymity makes it easy enough to do without recourse), far too many > others who justify its existence in this forum, and far too many worthwhile > listers who've been scorched by the flames over the years, for this > statement to be anything more than empty rhetoric. Sorry. Sorry, I disagree. It will work. > > Terrance, if you want to see this reading work (and I hope your money is as > good as your word), I recommend you do another head count; help us see how > this reading will transpire over a chunk of time (i.e., sections, pages, > hosts, topics, whatever you are suggesting), and perhaps model the opening > section so some of us can SEE how it might go. > > And for the record, I'm interested. But I can't commit to GR when I'm > hosting my fortnight of TPPM (early Dec.). We have Four readers. We need 10-12. Let's give it another week and see who signs up. Thanks for sharing and caring, T From cwleise at buffalo.edu Fri Aug 6 08:37:23 2004 From: cwleise at buffalo.edu (cwleise at buffalo.edu) Date: Fri, 06 Aug 2004 09:37:23 -0400 Subject: GR III (Fast & Focused group read) aborted ... Message-ID: <1091799443.41138993d8700@mail3.buffalo.edu> As far as 'new blood' goes, count me in. I'd love to see a group read happen, as I'll be rereading GR again (alongside everything else) this semester: I'll be glad to host something even, once I've seen the format... Best, Chris From glenn_scheper at earthlink.net Fri Aug 6 09:36:11 2004 From: glenn_scheper at earthlink.net (Glenn Scheper) Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2004 07:36:11 -0700 (GMT-07:00) Subject: TPPM Host List Reminder & Update Message-ID: <3130768.1091802971547.JavaMail.root@kermit.psp.pas.earthlink.net> Tell you what - I'll host _The Gift_. It can't be any worse than Cub Scouts, when I brought naugahyde and lace, and they all punched holes without a plan. When that fell apart, I stopped coming. Just like summer school, when I stopped going because the teacher only persisted in asking "Why" to my assertion that the wind blows the earth around. (See Enoch!) Now if I fail, I'll take my lumps and stay. Sept. 6 - Sept. 19: "The Gift" (1965) Yours truly, Glenn Scheper http://home.earthlink.net/~glenn_scheper/ glenn_scheper + at + earthlink.net Copyleft(!) Forward freely. From Dedalus204 at comcast.net Fri Aug 6 09:54:57 2004 From: Dedalus204 at comcast.net (Tim Strzechowski) Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2004 09:54:57 -0500 Subject: TPPM Host List Update Message-ID: <001401c47bc5$580dce10$838d0f18@adminln4hlpboo> Only seven spots open. Anyone else? Aug. 9 - Aug. 22: "Mortality and Mercy in Vienna" (1959) -- Dave Monroe Aug. 23 - Sept. 5: "Togetherness" (1960) -- Sept. 6 - Sept. 19: "The Gift" (1965) -- Glenn Scheper Sept. 20 - Oct. 3: "A Journey into the Mind of Watts" (1966) -- Oct. 4 - Oct. 17: Intro to Been Down So Long ... (1983) -- Richard Ryan Oct. 18 - Oct. 31: "Is it O.K. to Be a Luddite?" (1984) -- Joseph Tracy Nov. 1 - Nov. 14: "The Heart's Eternal Vow" (1988) -- Nov. 15 - Nov. 28: Intro to The Writings of Donald Barthelme (1992) -- Nov. 29 - Dec. 12: "Nearer, My Couch, to Thee" (1993) -- Tim Strzechowski ** Assuming most folks will want a holiday hiatus until the new year ... ** Jan. 3 - Jan. 16: Spike Jones Liner Notes (1994) -- Jan 17 - Jan. 23: Lotion Liner Notes (1995) -- Jan. 24 - Feb. 6: Intro to Stone Junction (1997) -- Feb. 7 - Feb. 20: Intro to 1984 (2003) -- Joseph Tracy -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From monropolitan at yahoo.com Fri Aug 6 11:34:01 2004 From: monropolitan at yahoo.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2004 09:34:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: GR III (Fast & Focused group read) aborted ... In-Reply-To: <4112D507.6A2CC117@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <20040806163401.34755.qmail@web50706.mail.yahoo.com> I never played the game. Childhood clavicle disaster. I throw like, er, a girl ... but, hell, I'll take a swing at it nonetheless. AND at the essays et al. But, yeah, you oughtta bat first ... --- Terrance wrote: > > Monroe has the biggest baseball card collection on > the block but he doesn't even no how to hold a bat. > > Here's lokin at you Chuck, > > Peppermint Patty You sly dog. But I'm more of a Marcie fan, so ... _______________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Express yourself with Y! Messenger! Free. Download now. http://messenger.yahoo.com From pynchonoid at yahoo.com Fri Aug 6 12:49:37 2004 From: pynchonoid at yahoo.com (pynchonoid) Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2004 10:49:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: GR III (Fast & Focused group read) ... In-Reply-To: <411360C6.BA9350F9@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <20040806174937.36714.qmail@web40712.mail.yahoo.com> T, maybe you'd get more promises of participation if you provided a taste of the kind of discussion you envision? Why not just go ahead and host the first 5 pages and blow our minds as you've been promising to do all these years? ===== http://pynchonoid.org "everything connects" http://neoconservadroid.org "android warriors of the right" __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From lycidas2 at earthlink.net Fri Aug 6 13:28:33 2004 From: lycidas2 at earthlink.net (Terrance) Date: Fri, 06 Aug 2004 14:28:33 -0400 Subject: GR III (Fast & Focused group read) ... References: <20040806174937.36714.qmail@web40712.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4113CDD1.5AC1A4C6@earthlink.net> pynchonoid wrote: > > T, maybe you'd get more promises of participation if > you provided a taste of the kind of discussion you > envision? Why not just go ahead and host the first 5 > pages and blow our minds as you've been promising to > do all these years? I don't want to do that. Thanks, but no thanks. If someone wants to start, by all means go ahead. When I suggested that we give GR a third read, I thought that we had a large group of potential readers. They include: Otto and Tim and Davemark and Dave Monroe and Joe, and Chris and KFL, and Barbara, Brett, Charles, Cyrus, Ian, Myself, MalignD, Ghetta Life, Joseph B., Kurt, Richard R., Robert J, Paul M., Sims, Sangkug Yi, David C, and a few others I can remember just now. Oh, and You too. I think the best course is to wait and see if we can get more committed readers. If we can't get 10 hosts lined up in the next week, I think we should abort. I am ready to blow your minds. Anyone else ready? From ghetta_outta at hotmail.com Fri Aug 6 13:46:13 2004 From: ghetta_outta at hotmail.com (Ghetta Life) Date: Fri, 06 Aug 2004 18:46:13 +0000 Subject: GR III (Fast & Focused group read) ... Message-ID: >From: pynchonoid >Why not just go ahead and host the first 5 pages and blow our minds as >you've been promising to do all these years? This comming from the parasite who hasn't participated in any P-list group reads (except very marginally for Vineland) in years, who prefers instead to deliver second-hand political spam under the guise of journalism (or to flame-bait in order to be the P-lists whipping post). At least Terrance has an original thought now and then and those focusing on the writings of Thomas Pynchon. Ghetta _________________________________________________________________ Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From ghetta_outta at hotmail.com Fri Aug 6 13:51:00 2004 From: ghetta_outta at hotmail.com (Ghetta Life) Date: Fri, 06 Aug 2004 18:51:00 +0000 Subject: GR III (Fast & Focused group read) ... Message-ID: Sorry, I'm going to have to decline this time around. I may jump in now and then, but I'm reading things other than Pynchon for the near future. Thanks though. Ghetta >From: Terrance > >When I suggested that we give GR a third read, I thought that we had a >large group of potential readers. > > >They include: > >Ghetta Life, > > >Anyone else ready? _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail From lycidas2 at earthlink.net Fri Aug 6 15:35:39 2004 From: lycidas2 at earthlink.net (Terrance) Date: Fri, 06 Aug 2004 16:35:39 -0400 Subject: GR III RSVP References: Message-ID: <4113EB9B.93539A22@earthlink.net> Otto won't host. Ghetta Life won't host. Dave Monroe won't host. Peter Fellows-McCully won't host Tim S. won't host. All may change their minds later. Scott B.? Joe allby? Richard Romeo? Robert J.? KFL? MalignD? Pynchonoid? Paul M.? Davemark? David Christensen? Cyrus? Charles F. Albert? Sangkug Yi? Kurt? Sims? Ian? Barbara? Bekah? Brett Coley? Please let us know if you can host. Committed to Hosting. Joseph B. will host. Terrance will host. Christ will host. From monropolitan at yahoo.com Fri Aug 6 15:51:01 2004 From: monropolitan at yahoo.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2004 13:51:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: MB DRO ROSHI Message-ID: <20040806205101.9538.qmail@web50708.mail.yahoo.com> http://www.city.hiroshima.jp/index-E.html http://www.lclark.edu/~history/HIROSHIMA/ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From lycidas2 at earthlink.net Fri Aug 6 15:55:05 2004 From: lycidas2 at earthlink.net (Terrance) Date: Fri, 06 Aug 2004 16:55:05 -0400 Subject: MB DRO ROSHI References: <20040806205101.9538.qmail@web50708.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4113F029.958EBC30@earthlink.net> http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15019b.htm From cyrusgeo at netscape.net Fri Aug 6 16:04:52 2004 From: cyrusgeo at netscape.net (Cyrus) Date: Sat, 07 Aug 2004 00:04:52 +0300 Subject: GR III RSVP In-Reply-To: <4113EB9B.93539A22@earthlink.net> References: <4113EB9B.93539A22@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <4113F274.1080302@netscape.net> lycidas2 at earthlink.net wrote: >Please let us know if you can host. > As I said before, I am willing to host, but preferably not before October. Apart from my usual work, I am also involved in the Olympics and Paralympics, so until then my schedule is tighter than ever before (vacation? Greek islands? you must be kidding...) However, I am willing to give it a go even before that, if this would facilitate the whole process. Cyrus From cyrusgeo at netscape.net Fri Aug 6 16:06:41 2004 From: cyrusgeo at netscape.net (Cyrus) Date: Sat, 07 Aug 2004 00:06:41 +0300 Subject: GR III RSVP In-Reply-To: <4113EB9B.93539A22@earthlink.net> References: <4113EB9B.93539A22@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <4113F2E1.9010609@netscape.net> (((I keep getting a "fail" message, so I'm sending this again. Sorry for the inconvenience))) lycidas2 at earthlink.net wrote: >Please let us know if you can host. > As I said before, I am willing to host, but preferably not before October. Apart from my usual work, I am also involved in the Olympics and Paralympics, so until then my schedule is tighter than ever before (vacation? Greek islands? you must be kidding...) However, I am willing to give it a go even before that, if this would facilitate the whole process. Cyrus From monropolitan at yahoo.com Fri Aug 6 16:01:35 2004 From: monropolitan at yahoo.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2004 14:01:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: GR III RSVP In-Reply-To: <4113EB9B.93539A22@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <20040806210135.47436.qmail@web50701.mail.yahoo.com> Like I said, I'll wait 'til I see how it works ... --- Terrance wrote: > Otto won't host. > Ghetta Life won't host. > Dave Monroe won't host. > Peter Fellows-McCully won't host > Tim S. won't host. > > All may change their minds later.... __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From lupine at ncia.net Fri Aug 6 16:20:40 2004 From: lupine at ncia.net (Scott Badger) Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2004 17:20:40 -0400 Subject: GR III RSVP References: <4113EB9B.93539A22@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <003501c47bfb$3a498140$8f031845@DG2YWP41> > Scott B.? OK. From lycidas2 at earthlink.net Fri Aug 6 16:18:23 2004 From: lycidas2 at earthlink.net (Terrance) Date: Fri, 06 Aug 2004 17:18:23 -0400 Subject: GR III RSVP References: <4113EB9B.93539A22@earthlink.net> <4113F274.1080302@netscape.net> Message-ID: <4113F59F.949A544@earthlink.net> Wonderful! We need about Six or Seven more to begin raising the Rocket. Cyrus wrote: > > lycidas2 at earthlink.net wrote: > > >Please let us know if you can host. > > > As I said before, I am willing to host, but preferably not before > October. Apart from my usual work, I am also involved in the Olympics > and Paralympics, so until then my schedule is tighter than ever before > (vacation? Greek islands? you must be kidding...) > > However, I am willing to give it a go even before that, if this would > facilitate the whole process. > > Cyrus From Dedalus204 at comcast.net Fri Aug 6 16:58:11 2004 From: Dedalus204 at comcast.net (Tim Strzechowski) Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2004 16:58:11 -0500 Subject: GR III RSVP References: <4113EB9B.93539A22@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <002901c47c00$78976b10$838d0f18@adminln4hlpboo> You're a rich one. I said I was interested, which (to me, at least) entails hosting. But I'll host when it's convenient for me to do so. How 'bout putting up a hosting schedule so we can all figure out what and when. You seem to be a man with a lot of grandoise ideas, but you're unwilling to put in the grunt work to actually get it moving. By your own admission, a lot of people have expressed interest (see below). What more do you need, a Loyalty Oath? Stop predicting how we'll all bail on you, just so you can have an excuse to bitch about the list and how no one will do anything. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Terrance" Cc: Sent: Friday, August 06, 2004 3:35 PM Subject: Re: GR III RSVP > Otto won't host. > Ghetta Life won't host. > Dave Monroe won't host. > Peter Fellows-McCully won't host > Tim S. won't host. > > All may change their minds later. > > Scott B.? > Joe allby? > Richard Romeo? > Robert J.? > KFL? > MalignD? > Pynchonoid? > Paul M.? > Davemark? > David Christensen? > Cyrus? > Charles F. Albert? > Sangkug Yi? > Kurt? > Sims? > Ian? > Barbara? > Bekah? > Brett Coley? > > Please let us know if you can host. > > > Committed to Hosting. > > Joseph B. will host. > Terrance will host. > Christ will host. > From glenn_scheper at earthlink.net Fri Aug 6 17:08:20 2004 From: glenn_scheper at earthlink.net (Glenn Scheper) Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2004 15:08:20 -0700 (GMT-07:00) Subject: GR III RSVP Message-ID: <7395058.1091830100786.JavaMail.root@ernie.psp.pas.earthlink.net> I affirm my intent to do an as yet undetermined part. Who's busy? 3am rings, jump in the car for 72 miles. I gobble up Internet text, or might have to nap til 7. Boss wants more output, citing 3 principles: You can't leave anything out; You can't lower the quality; You can't miss the deadline. Drive home for 68 miles. (There is a 4 mile short cut I use one way). Berating wife is best managed by staying busy at some task. Last night I was screwing pickets to the fence til 10. Pop caffeine tablets and do it all again. Yours truly, Glenn Scheper http://home.earthlink.net/~glenn_scheper/ glenn_scheper + at + earthlink.net Copyleft(!) Forward freely. From lycidas2 at earthlink.net Fri Aug 6 17:47:05 2004 From: lycidas2 at earthlink.net (Terrance) Date: Fri, 06 Aug 2004 18:47:05 -0400 Subject: GR III RSVP References: <4113EB9B.93539A22@earthlink.net> <002901c47c00$78976b10$838d0f18@adminln4hlpboo> Message-ID: <41140A69.B4C00A6E@earthlink.net> Tim Strzechowski wrote: > > You're a rich one. > > I said I was interested, which (to me, at least) entails hosting. But I'll > host when it's convenient for me to do so. How 'bout putting up a hosting > schedule so we can all figure out what and when. I don't think we are ready for a hosting schedule yet. But we are getting there. I'm glad you have added your name to the list of those willing to host. We have Six people committed to hosting now. We don't have a schedule yet. Again, I don't think we need a hosting schedule yet. In fact, I think we are better off without one for the time being. All hosts will choose the dates and sections they want to host. If two or more people want the same section or the same dates, we will discuss it and work it out. We still need to work out the details of how we will proceed. My idea that we can read GR faster than we have previously is not the law of the list. It's only an idea I've floated. So is the idea that hosts should focus on the text and not add to the copious Notes, Research, Critical Stuff amassed and archived during, between, and after the first two group readings of Gravity's Rainbow. > > You seem to be a man with a lot of grandoise ideas, but you're unwilling to > put in the grunt work to actually get it moving. I'm not going to defend myself or reply to this assumption. By your own admission, a > lot of people have expressed interest (see below). What more do you need, a > Loyalty Oath? Have a little patients, Tim. It may work. We may get this Rocket up. It may not work. We may abort. Let's give it a week. Is that OK? > > Stop predicting how we'll all bail on you, just so you can have an excuse to > bitch about the list and how no one will do anything. I'm not sure what is going to happen. I hope that we will read GR together. For now, I think it's best to make a list of those willing to host. I appreciate that you don't agree with me. Let's here from others. What say you, P-listers? Do we need a host schedule right now? Can we read the novel in 8-12 months? Do we want to ask Hosts to abstain from the Google machine? From the extra/inter textual reading? And from the research approach? Can we do without the notes, the critical literature ... the etymological and analytical method employed in the previous readings? Can we and should we read GR and only GR? Can we do a fast and focused reading of GR? We want to hear from everyone. Thanks From lupine at ncia.net Fri Aug 6 18:50:40 2004 From: lupine at ncia.net (Scott Badger) Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2004 19:50:40 -0400 Subject: GR III RSVP References: <4113EB9B.93539A22@earthlink.net> <002901c47c00$78976b10$838d0f18@adminln4hlpboo> <41140A69.B4C00A6E@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <004501c47c10$2e8e5fa0$21031845@DG2YWP41> Terrance: > Can we read the novel in 8-12 months? Do we want to ask Hosts to abstain > from the Google machine? From the extra/inter textual reading? And from > the research approach? Can we do without the notes, the critical > literature ... the etymological and analytical method employed in the > previous readings? > > Can we and should we read GR and only GR? Yes, we've done the patterns to death. Let's look at the cloth. Scott From ottosell at yahoo.de Fri Aug 6 19:38:13 2004 From: ottosell at yahoo.de (Otto) Date: Sat, 7 Aug 2004 02:38:13 +0200 Subject: GR III RSVP References: <4113EB9B.93539A22@earthlink.net> <002901c47c00$78976b10$838d0f18@adminln4hlpboo> <41140A69.B4C00A6E@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <006201c47c16$d4447f00$0101a8c0@i7t2q2> > > I don't think we are ready for a hosting schedule yet. But we are > getting there. I'm glad you have added your name to the list of those > willing to host. We have Six people committed to hosting now. We don't > have a schedule yet. Again, I don't think we need a hosting schedule > yet. In fact, I think we are better off without one for the time being. > I think our beginning on the von Braun-epigraph wasn't that bad. > > We still need to work out the details of how we will proceed. My idea > that we can read GR faster than we have previously is not the law of the > list. It's only an idea I've floated. I still think it's an appealing idea. I'd have nothing against dealing with GR for the next three years or until the next novel comes out. But the experience has shown that long group-readings loose participants on the way, maybe a shorter procedure might move people from lurking to posting, eventually even hosting? > So is the idea that hosts should > focus on the text and not add to the copious Notes, Research, Critical > Stuff amassed and archived during, between, and after the first two > group readings of Gravity's Rainbow. > I get your point and it's a good one. But for this focussing on the text instead on the critical apparatus around it I think the hosts should be preferably native speakers. > > Let's here from others. What say you, P-listers? Do we need a host > schedule right now? > Can we read the novel in 8-12 months? Do we want to ask Hosts to abstain > from the Google machine? From the extra/inter textual reading? And from > the research approach? Can we do without the notes, the critical > literature ... the etymological and analytical method employed in the > previous readings? > > Can we and should we read GR and only GR? Can we do a fast and focused > reading of GR? > I don't know but from my point of view -- let's give it a try. There'll be always enough time to do the essays. > We want to hear from everyone. > > Thanks Y'r obd't s'v't. Otto From ottosell at yahoo.de Fri Aug 6 19:42:41 2004 From: ottosell at yahoo.de (Otto) Date: Sat, 7 Aug 2004 02:42:41 +0200 Subject: Fw: [mcelroy-l] More McElroy Message-ID: <000701c47c17$73c37d60$0101a8c0@i7t2q2> ----- Original Message ----- To: "McElroy List" Sent: Friday, August 06, 2004 8:16 PM Subject: [mcelroy-l] More McElroy > From the Electronic Book Review, an excerpt from a McElroy essay on water: > http://www.electronicbookreview.com/v3/servlet/ebr?command=view_essay&essay_id=mcelroyonece > From ottosell at yahoo.de Fri Aug 6 22:00:03 2004 From: ottosell at yahoo.de (Otto) Date: Sat, 7 Aug 2004 05:00:03 +0200 Subject: Fw: Books Update: Nicholson Baker's Wild Talk Message-ID: <001a01c47c2a$a417a460$0101a8c0@i7t2q2> > > Books Update from NYTimes.com > Friday, August 6, 2004 > ------------------------------- > > Leon Wieseltier: Nicholson Baker's Wild Talk > "Checkpoint" by Nicholson Baker "Yet the discussion of Bush-hatred, and of Baker's book, cannot be concluded with a polite absolution. For the virulence that calls itself critical thinking, the merry diabolization of other opinions and the other people who hold them, the confusion of rightness with righteousness, the preference for aspersion to argument, the view that the strongest statement is the truest statement -- these deformations of political discourse now thrive in the houses of liberalism too. The radicalism of the right has hectored into being a radicalism of the left. The Bush-loving mob is being met with a Bush-hating mob. Liberals are forgetting why liberals are not radicals. When Jay demands to know how Ben would feel if Bush were killed -- ''won't part of you think, He's got it coming to him? Huh?'' -- the most that center-left Ben can muster in the way of principle is this: ''I don't -- I'm not -- I can't predict how I would react if the president were actually shot,'' followed by some sensitive mutterings about ''the simple sight of any human being stilled.'' American liberalism, in sum, may be losing its head." Leon Wieseltier is the literary editor of The New Republic > ===================== > Half of the review isn't about the novel! Otto From tibby666 at rogers.com Sat Aug 7 02:24:28 2004 From: tibby666 at rogers.com (abnonymous) Date: Sat, 7 Aug 2004 03:24:28 -0400 Subject: Books Update: Nicholson Baker's Wild Talk References: <001a01c47c2a$a417a460$0101a8c0@i7t2q2> Message-ID: <008701c47c4f$93521ff0$907ba8c0@POPPY> So how would YOU guys feel? YOPJ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Otto" To: "Pynchon Liste" Sent: Friday, August 06, 2004 11:00 PM Subject: Fw: Books Update: Nicholson Baker's Wild Talk > > > > Books Update from NYTimes.com > > Friday, August 6, 2004 > > ------------------------------- > > > > Leon Wieseltier: Nicholson Baker's Wild Talk > > > "Checkpoint" by Nicholson Baker > > "Yet the discussion of Bush-hatred, and of Baker's book, cannot be concluded > with a polite absolution. For the virulence that calls itself critical > thinking, the merry diabolization of other opinions and the other people who > hold them, the confusion of rightness with righteousness, the preference for > aspersion to argument, the view that the strongest statement is the truest > statement -- these deformations of political discourse now thrive in the > houses of liberalism too. The radicalism of the right has hectored into > being a radicalism of the left. The Bush-loving mob is being met with a > Bush-hating mob. Liberals are forgetting why liberals are not radicals. When > Jay demands to know how Ben would feel if Bush were killed -- ''won't part > of you think, He's got it coming to him? Huh?'' -- the most that center-left > Ben can muster in the way of principle is this: ''I don't -- I'm not -- I > can't predict how I would react if the president were actually shot,'' > followed by some sensitive mutterings about ''the simple sight of any human > being stilled.'' American liberalism, in sum, may be losing its head." > > Leon Wieseltier is the literary editor of The New Republic > > > ===================== > > > > Half of the review isn't about the novel! > > Otto > From w8yle at fuse.net Sat Aug 7 02:38:33 2004 From: w8yle at fuse.net (Don Corathers) Date: Sat, 7 Aug 2004 03:38:33 -0400 Subject: Books Update: Nicholson Baker's Wild Talk References: <001a01c47c2a$a417a460$0101a8c0@i7t2q2> <008701c47c4f$93521ff0$907ba8c0@POPPY> Message-ID: <003d01c47c51$8cef3a60$d500e80a@zoomtown.com> > So how would YOU guys feel? Consider for a moment the concept of President Dick Cheney. D.C. From sims at ezpzapps.com Sat Aug 7 05:16:16 2004 From: sims at ezpzapps.com (sims) Date: Sat, 7 Aug 2004 12:16:16 +0200 Subject: GR III RSVP In-Reply-To: <41140A69.B4C00A6E@earthlink.net> References: <4113EB9B.93539A22@earthlink.net> <002901c47c00$78976b10$838d0f18@adminln4hlpboo> <41140A69.B4C00A6E@earthlink.net> Message-ID: >Can we read the novel in 8-12 months? Do we want to ask Hosts to abstain >from the Google machine? From the extra/inter textual reading? And from >the research approach? Can we do without the notes, the critical >literature ... the etymological and analytical method employed in the >previous readings? > >Can we and should we read GR and only GR? Can we do a fast and focused >reading of GR? > >We want to hear from everyone. As my name is mentioned I figure I should speak up, here's my story for what it's worth: I just finished my first reading of V, which was also the first Pynchon novel I've ever read. Incredible book...amazing, rich book. I've been living in Malta for four years and his references to and knowledge of history, life, religion in Malta are deep. It's been interesting for me to speculate on some bits of the book and how TP might have arrived/derived at them. For example, the lashing of Mara to the ship as a replacement for the figurehead...there are several statues in churches here that people claim were figureheads for ships. There is a special one, a Madonna, over in the Three Cities which is used for the festa and has the ex-ship's figurehead claim attached to her. Also, if you don't mind me continuing on with V for a minute, an image from Malta keeps coming back to me from my reading of V and some minor googling about V. Most of the Neolithic temples here in Malta have male-female components as part of their design. These temples predate, by many years, the Greek, Phoenician, Roman temples & goddesses that were mentioned in several V google articles I read. Temples here have been described as the oldest standing architecture in the world by leading archaeologists such as Sir Colin Renfrew. Inside the temples are usually one of two types of male phallic stone symbols - either a rough menhir, large rough stone standing upright or a stone which has been worked, cut and smoothed. The smooth version, which resembles an enormous dildo stuck in the ground, *could* also appear to be an ICBM emerging from an underground silo. Directly across from the male stone you will find the female component in what seems to be the most prominent/important position of the temple. Many people describe this as the alter of the temple. These stones are large triangles, pubic triangles, and resemble a large V coming from the earth. They now seem like the original V model to me...I cannot imagine TP being in Malta without visiting these impressive UNESCO world heritage sites at least once. The guy seems to absorb everything and then provide endless opportunities to speculate on or make connections to what is in his books. Amazing. Pardon the above diversion, I guess I'm now hooked on his books. It seems to me as if most on this List are academics or writers...I'm a software developer who's academic and literary background must be light years behind the list. I've joined the list to learn and broaden my old cranium which is too crammed with recursive loops, repeat handlers, and code functions. My literary knowledge and literary analytical/critical skill is extreme beginner level. I'm here to learn more...seems like TP is a great place to start. I have zero idea what such a group reading is or would be like. I am also waiting for the bookstore on Republic Street, Valletta to get the damn copy of GR to me so I can start my first reading! Time seems to be a different thing here in Malta...TP must have loved this place...maybe he still visits for all I know. So...I don't have the damn book yet, not much of a literary background, and would prefer to lurk for a while. Hope you don't mind a question now and again. atb sims From Dedalus204 at comcast.net Sat Aug 7 07:33:21 2004 From: Dedalus204 at comcast.net (Tim Strzechowski) Date: Sat, 7 Aug 2004 07:33:21 -0500 Subject: GR III RSVP References: <4113EB9B.93539A22@earthlink.net> <002901c47c00$78976b10$838d0f18@adminln4hlpboo> <41140A69.B4C00A6E@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <001001c47c7a$baf550b0$838d0f18@adminln4hlpboo> > > It seems to me as if most on this List are academics or writers... Hardly, my friend. A coupla writers, a coupla teachers, a cab driver, a lawyer, a security guard, a musician, the list goes on ... But we ARE dorks, one and all . . . From sims at ezpzapps.com Sat Aug 7 07:51:26 2004 From: sims at ezpzapps.com (sims) Date: Sat, 7 Aug 2004 14:51:26 +0200 Subject: GR III RSVP Message-ID: > > >> It seems to me as if most on this List are academics or writers... > > > >Hardly, my friend. A coupla writers, a coupla teachers, a cab driver, a >lawyer, a security guard, a musician, the list goes on ... > > >But we ARE dorks, one and all . . . Most reassuring...maybe that's why the gravity field drew me in. From jasper at hatguild.org Sat Aug 7 07:42:56 2004 From: jasper at hatguild.org (Jasper Fidget) Date: Sat, 7 Aug 2004 08:42:56 -0400 Subject: GR III RSVP In-Reply-To: <41140A69.B4C00A6E@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <200408071242.i77CgbDj010741@waste.org> > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-pynchon-l at waste.org [mailto:owner-pynchon-l at waste.org] On > Behalf Of Terrance > > I'm not sure what is going to happen. I hope that we will read GR > together. > For now, I think it's best to make a list of those willing to host. I > appreciate that you don't agree with me. > > Let's here from others. What say you, P-listers? Do we need a host > schedule right now? > Can we read the novel in 8-12 months? Do we want to ask Hosts to abstain > from the Google machine? From the extra/inter textual reading? And from > the research approach? Can we do without the notes, the critical > literature ... the etymological and analytical method employed in the > previous readings? > > Can we and should we read GR and only GR? Can we do a fast and focused > reading of GR? > > We want to hear from everyone. > > Thanks Doing without the critical apparatus sounds nice, but the tangential research -- googled or otherwise -- is part of what's fun for me. During the Pale Fire read I learned all kinds of stuff I wouldn't have bothered with otherwise. Surely some history at least is necessary in order to discuss GR? Anyway I'm pretty busy until the end of the year, but I'll try to keep up. (No promises or commitments though.) From jasper at hatguild.org Sat Aug 7 07:45:21 2004 From: jasper at hatguild.org (Jasper Fidget) Date: Sat, 7 Aug 2004 08:45:21 -0400 Subject: GR III RSVP In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200408071245.i77Cj2Dj011364@waste.org> > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-pynchon-l at waste.org [mailto:owner-pynchon-l at waste.org] On > Behalf Of sims > > It seems to me as if most on this List are academics or writers...I'm > a software developer who's academic and literary background > must be light years behind the list. I've joined the list to learn > and broaden my old cranium which is too crammed with recursive > loops, repeat handlers, and code functions. My literary knowledge and > literary analytical/critical skill is extreme beginner level. I'm here to > learn > more...seems like TP is a great place to start. > > I have zero idea what such a group reading is or would be like. > > I am also waiting for the bookstore on Republic Street, Valletta > to get the damn copy of GR to me so I can start my first reading! > Time seems to be a different thing here in Malta...TP must have > loved this place...maybe he still visits for all I know. > > So...I don't have the damn book yet, not much of a literary background, > and would prefer to lurk for a while. Hope you don't mind a question > now and again. > > atb > > sims > Me too, software developer. And I think most of the active list is non-academic (which is probably what keeps it interesting -- go read the Nabokov list sometime for comparison). From jasper at hatguild.org Sat Aug 7 07:47:10 2004 From: jasper at hatguild.org (Jasper Fidget) Date: Sat, 7 Aug 2004 08:47:10 -0400 Subject: GR III RSVP In-Reply-To: <001001c47c7a$baf550b0$838d0f18@adminln4hlpboo> Message-ID: <200408071246.i77CkpDj011899@waste.org> > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-pynchon-l at waste.org [mailto:owner-pynchon-l at waste.org] On > Behalf Of Tim Strzechowski > Sent: Saturday, August 07, 2004 8:33 AM > To: Pynchon-L; sims > Subject: Re: GR III RSVP > > > > > It seems to me as if most on this List are academics or writers... > > > > Hardly, my friend. A coupla writers, a coupla teachers, a cab driver, a > lawyer, a security guard, a musician, the list goes on ... > > > But we ARE dorks, one and all . . . > The preferred term is *geek*, thanks. A dork is "A dull stupid fatuous person" (and no, I didn't google that). From ottosell at yahoo.de Sat Aug 7 09:39:48 2004 From: ottosell at yahoo.de (Otto) Date: Sat, 7 Aug 2004 16:39:48 +0200 Subject: The virtue of idleness Message-ID: <004b01c47c8c$655436a0$0101a8c0@i7t2q2> "From the Bible on, moralists and nags have promoted the benefits of hard work and early rising. They are mistaken, argues Tom Hodgkinson. For breathing space to create and time to reflect, indolence is essential. He offers a guide to easy living, pleasurable illness, and effortless sex (...) The art of living is the art of bringing dreams and reality together. I have a dream. It is called love, anarchy, freedom. It is called being idle." © Tom Hodgkinson, 2004. Saturday August 7, 2004, The Guardian http://www.guardian.co.uk/weekend/story/0,3605,1276787,00.html The Deadly Sins/Sloth; Nearer, My Couch, to Thee By Thomas Pynchon, June 6, 1993 http://www.nytimes.com/books/97/05/18/reviews/pynchon-sloth.html From lycidas2 at earthlink.net Sat Aug 7 10:04:22 2004 From: lycidas2 at earthlink.net (Terrance) Date: Sat, 07 Aug 2004 11:04:22 -0400 Subject: The virtue of idleness References: <004b01c47c8c$655436a0$0101a8c0@i7t2q2> Message-ID: <4114EF76.DB6E03B7@earthlink.net> Otto wrote: > > "From the Bible on, moralists and nags have promoted the benefits of hard > work and early rising. They are mistaken, argues Tom Hodgkinson. The Bible? Does the Bible promote the benefits of hard work and early rising? So what happened to Cain? Sounds like Ben Franklin to me. Doesn't this Puritan work ethic come after the Reformation? Isn't it absent from Jewish and Catholic Theology? From pynchonoid at yahoo.com Sat Aug 7 10:18:26 2004 From: pynchonoid at yahoo.com (pynchonoid) Date: Sat, 7 Aug 2004 08:18:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: irony is not dead Message-ID: <20040807151826.17763.qmail@web40706.mail.yahoo.com> Needa Life: This comming from the parasite who hasn't participated in any P-list group reads [...] Sorry, I'm going to have to decline this time around. [...] ===== http://pynchonoid.org "everything connects" http://neoconservadroid.org "android warriors of the right" __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Address AutoComplete - You start. We finish. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From pynchonoid at yahoo.com Sat Aug 7 10:20:39 2004 From: pynchonoid at yahoo.com (pynchonoid) Date: Sat, 7 Aug 2004 08:20:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Books Update: Nicholson Baker's Wild Talk In-Reply-To: <008701c47c4f$93521ff0$907ba8c0@POPPY> Message-ID: <20040807152039.53634.qmail@web40709.mail.yahoo.com> I'd feel sad that Bush had passed before he had a chance to read Pynchon or much of anything else. --- abnonymous wrote: > So how would YOU guys feel? > ===== http://pynchonoid.org "everything connects" http://neoconservadroid.org "android warriors of the right" __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - You care about security. So do we. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From pynchonoid at yahoo.com Sat Aug 7 11:09:26 2004 From: pynchonoid at yahoo.com (pynchonoid) Date: Sat, 7 Aug 2004 09:09:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Secrets of ENIAC Message-ID: <20040807160926.44585.qmail@web40701.mail.yahoo.com> Secrets of ENIAC The Electronic Numerical Integrator and Computer (ENIAC) was among the very first computers�some say it was the first, though there are competing claims. Built at Penn from 1942 to 1946, its work was the most prosaic imaginable: calculating missile ballistics and later helping with the design of the hydrogen bomb. Looking back from today, with every facet of society permeated by super-fast, ultra-miniaturized, all-but-invisible computers, the ENIAC seems ludicrously clunky and primitive. But this is where it all began. For someone who came of age in the second half of the computer revolution, the immediately surprising thing about ENIAC is its physicality. It is a machine in the most literal sense, built from huge metal boxes, massive cables, thick copper wires joined by gobs of solder, panels full of dials, bank upon bank of vacuum tubes. Looking again, the second surprise is the beauty and intricacy of its individual parts. A single tube, responsible for just one numeral in a decimal ring counter, contains a thicket of wires, planes, and baffles. If you peer very closely, a microcosm of strange and enigmatic scenes begins to unfold. These images of ENIAC express the wonder I felt when, as a child, I came to understand what a computer is: not just a calculating machine, but a tool for amplifying imagination, making it possible to weave structures of pure abstract symbols and see them rendered as concrete things, real places. This is pure magic. [...] http://www.cis.upenn.edu/~bcpierce/photos/2004-eniac.html ===== http://pynchonoid.org "everything connects" http://neoconservadroid.org "android warriors of the right" __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From monropolitan at yahoo.com Sat Aug 7 12:53:38 2004 From: monropolitan at yahoo.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Sat, 7 Aug 2004 10:53:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: GR III RSVP In-Reply-To: <200408071246.i77CkpDj011899@waste.org> Message-ID: <20040807175338.5261.qmail@web50709.mail.yahoo.com> "Nerd," "loser" or "dweeb" for me, thanks ... --- Jasper Fidget wrote: > > > But we ARE dorks, one and all . . . > > The preferred term is *geek*, thanks.... __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From bekah0176 at sbcglobal.net Sat Aug 7 13:10:45 2004 From: bekah0176 at sbcglobal.net (Bekah) Date: Sat, 7 Aug 2004 11:10:45 -0700 Subject: GR III RSVP In-Reply-To: <200408071242.i77CgbDj010741@waste.org> References: <200408071242.i77CgbDj010741@waste.org> Message-ID: At 8:42 AM -0400 8/7/04, Jasper Fidget wrote: > >Doing without the critical apparatus sounds nice, but the tangential >research -- googled or otherwise -- is part of what's fun for me. During >the Pale Fire read I learned all kinds of stuff I wouldn't have bothered >with otherwise. Surely some history at least is necessary in order to >discuss GR? > >Anyway I'm pretty busy until the end of the year, but I'll try to keep up. >(No promises or commitments though.) Exactly the same, thanks, Bekah From ottosell at yahoo.de Sat Aug 7 13:45:03 2004 From: ottosell at yahoo.de (Otto) Date: Sat, 7 Aug 2004 20:45:03 +0200 Subject: The virtue of idleness References: <004b01c47c8c$655436a0$0101a8c0@i7t2q2> <4114EF76.DB6E03B7@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <001301c47cae$a84d2bc0$0101a8c0@i7t2q2> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Terrance" Cc: Sent: Saturday, August 07, 2004 5:04 PM Subject: Re: The virtue of idleness > > > Otto wrote: > > > > "From the Bible on, moralists and nags have promoted the benefits of hard > > work and early rising. They are mistaken, argues Tom Hodgkinson. > > The Bible? Does the Bible promote the benefits of hard work and early > rising? So what happened to Cain? Sounds like Ben Franklin to me. > Doesn't this Puritan work ethic come after the Reformation? Isn't it > absent from Jewish and Catholic Theology? You're correct: "early to bed and early to rise makes a man healthy, wealthy and wise"? http://www.guardian.co.uk/weekend/story/0,3605,1276787,00.html From himself at richardryan.com Sat Aug 7 14:12:49 2004 From: himself at richardryan.com (Himself) Date: Sat, 7 Aug 2004 15:12:49 -0400 Subject: Books Update: Nicholson Baker's Wild Talk In-Reply-To: <001a01c47c2a$a417a460$0101a8c0@i7t2q2> Message-ID: I for one would feel terrible if Bush were shot. The reasons are over determined, but include: 1. The sense that political violence is almost always illiberal, and antithetical to the variety of pragamatic liberalism that I espouse; 2. The sense that it would represent a failure of American democracy, which in its finest moments deserves being supported and embraced -- I fully expect Kerry-Edwards to trounce Bush-Cheney, and if Bush were murdered I would be deprived of an immense and very patriotic satisfaction; 3. The simple moral (categorical) revulsion we should always feel at the violent death of another human being. Those things said, it sounds as though Wieseltier is reviewing the opinions of characters in the book (a plebian falacy if there ever was one). I'd like to look at the book itself and L.W's full review before I form a judgment of either. -----Original Message----- From: owner-pynchon-l at waste.org [mailto:owner-pynchon-l at waste.org]On Behalf Of Otto Sent: Friday, August 06, 2004 11:00 PM To: Pynchon Liste Subject: Fw: Books Update: Nicholson Baker's Wild Talk > > Books Update from NYTimes.com > Friday, August 6, 2004 > ------------------------------- > > Leon Wieseltier: Nicholson Baker's Wild Talk > "Checkpoint" by Nicholson Baker "Yet the discussion of Bush-hatred, and of Baker's book, cannot be concluded with a polite absolution. For the virulence that calls itself critical thinking, the merry diabolization of other opinions and the other people who hold them, the confusion of rightness with righteousness, the preference for aspersion to argument, the view that the strongest statement is the truest statement -- these deformations of political discourse now thrive in the houses of liberalism too. The radicalism of the right has hectored into being a radicalism of the left. The Bush-loving mob is being met with a Bush-hating mob. Liberals are forgetting why liberals are not radicals. When Jay demands to know how Ben would feel if Bush were killed -- ''won't part of you think, He's got it coming to him? Huh?'' -- the most that center-left Ben can muster in the way of principle is this: ''I don't -- I'm not -- I can't predict how I would react if the president were actually shot,'' followed by some sensitive mutterings about ''the simple sight of any human being stilled.'' American liberalism, in sum, may be losing its head." Leon Wieseltier is the literary editor of The New Republic > ===================== > Half of the review isn't about the novel! Otto From tyronemullet at hotmail.com Sat Aug 7 14:37:30 2004 From: tyronemullet at hotmail.com (Steve Maas) Date: Sat, 07 Aug 2004 12:37:30 -0700 Subject: GR III RSVP Message-ID: I haven�t significantly participated in a group read since the first M&D back in �97, primarily because I don�t have much interest in LitCrit. Terrance�s ideas for this read sound good to me. I won�t promise to host, though I may, but I�ll at least participate. Steve Maas _________________________________________________________________ Don�t just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search! http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/ From ottosell at yahoo.de Sat Aug 7 14:43:02 2004 From: ottosell at yahoo.de (Otto) Date: Sat, 7 Aug 2004 21:43:02 +0200 Subject: Books Update: Nicholson Baker's Wild Talk References: Message-ID: <003501c47cb6$c1bd0960$0101a8c0@i7t2q2> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Himself" To: "Otto" ; "Pynchon Liste" Sent: Saturday, August 07, 2004 9:12 PM Subject: RE: Books Update: Nicholson Baker's Wild Talk > I for one would feel terrible if Bush were shot. The reasons are over > determined, but include: > > 1. The sense that political violence is almost always illiberal, and > antithetical to the variety of pragamatic liberalism that I espouse; > > 2. The sense that it would represent a failure of American democracy, which > in its finest moments deserves being supported and embraced -- I fully > expect Kerry-Edwards to trounce Bush-Cheney, and if Bush were murdered I > would be deprived of an immense and very patriotic satisfaction; > > 3. The simple moral (categorical) revulsion we should always feel at the > violent death of another human being. > > Those things said, it sounds as though Wieseltier is reviewing the opinions > of characters in the book (a plebian falacy if there ever was one). I'd > like to look at the book itself and L.W's full review before I form a > judgment of either. > > Forgot to include the url, sorry: http://www.nytimes.com/2004/08/08/books/review/08WEISELT.html Couldn't agree more to your three points, especially 1. and 3. Otto From cyrusgeo at netscape.net Sat Aug 7 17:19:16 2004 From: cyrusgeo at netscape.net (Cyrus) Date: Sun, 08 Aug 2004 01:19:16 +0300 Subject: GR III RSVP In-Reply-To: <41140A69.B4C00A6E@earthlink.net> References: <4113EB9B.93539A22@earthlink.net> <002901c47c00$78976b10$838d0f18@adminln4hlpboo> <41140A69.B4C00A6E@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <41155564.5000209@netscape.net> lycidas2 at earthlink.net wrote: >Can we read the novel in 8-12 months? Do we want to ask Hosts to abstain >from the Google machine? From the extra/inter textual reading? And from >the research approach? Can we do without the notes, the critical >literature ... the etymological and analytical method employed in the >previous readings? > Sounds intriguing. Two questions, though, for everyone. 1. Does this mean we'll go for a purely subjective reading (of course, one could argue all readings are subjective, but...) -- and 2. How can you refrain from resorting to encyclopedias, companions and search machines when even the most informed and widely knowledgeable reader constantly encounters names of persons and things he may have never heard of? Cyrus From keithsz at sbcglobal.net Sat Aug 7 18:46:40 2004 From: keithsz at sbcglobal.net (Keith McMullen) Date: Sat, 7 Aug 2004 16:46:40 -0700 Subject: GR III RIP In-Reply-To: <41155564.5000209@netscape.net> References: <4113EB9B.93539A22@earthlink.net> <002901c47c00$78976b10$838d0f18@adminln4hlpboo> <41140A69.B4C00A6E@earthlink.net> <41155564.5000209@netscape.net> Message-ID: <0783B822-E8CC-11D8-82FE-000A95BDCA92@sbcglobal.net> I think we should begin by agreeing on rules for the discussion of whether or not we should do a group read of GR. This list hums like a Mercedes when rules are clearly defined. From keithsz at sbcglobal.net Sat Aug 7 19:11:01 2004 From: keithsz at sbcglobal.net (Keith McMullen) Date: Sat, 7 Aug 2004 17:11:01 -0700 Subject: GR III RIP In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6E6BF646-E8CF-11D8-82FE-000A95BDCA92@sbcglobal.net> >>>If you mean that it farts out noxious gases into the noses of the participants then I'm right with you.<<< That's not what I meant, but you are indeed right with me. From ottosell at yahoo.de Sat Aug 7 23:26:11 2004 From: ottosell at yahoo.de (Otto) Date: Sun, 8 Aug 2004 06:26:11 +0200 Subject: NP two goodies Message-ID: <000f01c47cff$d708cf40$0101a8c0@i7t2q2> Two nice links from BBC's "Click Online" http://www.bbcworld.com/content/template_clickonline.asp?pageid=666 The Phone http://homepage.ntlworld.com/staceyroad/THE%20PHONE.swf The Subservient Chicken http://www.subservientchicken.com/ From mittelwerk at hotmail.com Sun Aug 8 00:21:20 2004 From: mittelwerk at hotmail.com (Joel Katz) Date: Sun, 08 Aug 2004 01:21:20 -0400 Subject: Books Update: Nicholson Baker's Wild Talk Message-ID: the books sucks. it should be a HOW-TO PRIMER on how to cap that mendacious cocksucker. really love talking point #1, 'illiberal violence.' it's because of well-meaning talk like that that i joined the The Party of the Black Night of Triumph. and #3: i'm sure 'categorical moral revulsion' was high up on that cocksucker's list as he swept away the pleas from the vatican and--holy fucking christ--pat robertson, himself, and fried that born-again woman in texas. >From: "Himself" >To: "Otto" , "Pynchon Liste" >Subject: RE: Books Update: Nicholson Baker's Wild Talk >Date: Sat, 7 Aug 2004 15:12:49 -0400 > >I for one would feel terrible if Bush were shot. The reasons are over >determined, but include: > >1. The sense that political violence is almost always illiberal, and >antithetical to the variety of pragamatic liberalism that I espouse; > >2. The sense that it would represent a failure of American democracy, >which >in its finest moments deserves being supported and embraced -- I fully >expect Kerry-Edwards to trounce Bush-Cheney, and if Bush were murdered I >would be deprived of an immense and very patriotic satisfaction; > >3. The simple moral (categorical) revulsion we should always feel at the >violent death of another human being. > >Those things said, it sounds as though Wieseltier is reviewing the opinions >of characters in the book (a plebian falacy if there ever was one). I'd >like to look at the book itself and L.W's full review before I form a >judgment of either. > > > > >-----Original Message----- >From: owner-pynchon-l at waste.org [mailto:owner-pynchon-l at waste.org]On >Behalf Of Otto >Sent: Friday, August 06, 2004 11:00 PM >To: Pynchon Liste >Subject: Fw: Books Update: Nicholson Baker's Wild Talk > > > > > > Books Update from NYTimes.com > > Friday, August 6, 2004 > > ------------------------------- > > > > Leon Wieseltier: Nicholson Baker's Wild Talk > > > "Checkpoint" by Nicholson Baker > >"Yet the discussion of Bush-hatred, and of Baker's book, cannot be >concluded >with a polite absolution. For the virulence that calls itself critical >thinking, the merry diabolization of other opinions and the other people >who >hold them, the confusion of rightness with righteousness, the preference >for >aspersion to argument, the view that the strongest statement is the truest >statement -- these deformations of political discourse now thrive in the >houses of liberalism too. The radicalism of the right has hectored into >being a radicalism of the left. The Bush-loving mob is being met with a >Bush-hating mob. Liberals are forgetting why liberals are not radicals. >When >Jay demands to know how Ben would feel if Bush were killed -- ''won't part >of you think, He's got it coming to him? Huh?'' -- the most that >center-left >Ben can muster in the way of principle is this: ''I don't -- I'm not -- I >can't predict how I would react if the president were actually shot,'' >followed by some sensitive mutterings about ''the simple sight of any human >being stilled.'' American liberalism, in sum, may be losing its head." > >Leon Wieseltier is the literary editor of The New Republic > > > ===================== > > > >Half of the review isn't about the novel! > >Otto > _________________________________________________________________ Don�t just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search! http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/ From lycidas2 at earthlink.net Sun Aug 8 11:35:47 2004 From: lycidas2 at earthlink.net (Terrance Flaherty) Date: Sun, 8 Aug 2004 12:35:47 -0400 (GMT-04:00) Subject: GR III RIP Message-ID: <21642978.1091982947977.JavaMail.root@bigbird.psp.pas.earthlink.net> Can we add your name to the list of people willing to host? And what do you think of my proposal? We need at least 6 more people. From keithsz at sbcglobal.net Sun Aug 8 11:53:57 2004 From: keithsz at sbcglobal.net (Keith McMullen) Date: Sun, 8 Aug 2004 09:53:57 -0700 Subject: GR III RIP In-Reply-To: <21642978.1091982947977.JavaMail.root@bigbird.psp.pas.earthlink.net> References: <21642978.1091982947977.JavaMail.root@bigbird.psp.pas.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <89E4BD08-E95B-11D8-95D5-000A95BDCA92@sbcglobal.net> >>>Can we add your name to the list of people willing to host?<<< I don't have time for that level of involvement. >>>And what do you think of my proposal?<<< An exercise in futility. From keithsz at sbcglobal.net Sun Aug 8 11:54:51 2004 From: keithsz at sbcglobal.net (Keith McMullen) Date: Sun, 8 Aug 2004 09:54:51 -0700 Subject: GR III RIP In-Reply-To: <21642978.1091982947977.JavaMail.root@bigbird.psp.pas.earthlink.net> References: <21642978.1091982947977.JavaMail.root@bigbird.psp.pas.earthlink.net> Message-ID: >>>We need at least 6 more people. <<< Post a sign-up list and you'll have them within 24 hours. From monropolitan at yahoo.com Sun Aug 8 17:34:28 2004 From: monropolitan at yahoo.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Sun, 8 Aug 2004 15:34:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: MMV "Mortality and Mercy in Vienna" Message-ID: <20040808223428.922.qmail@web50706.mail.yahoo.com> My time's going to be limited for the next couple of days, so, just to get y'all started ... Pynchon, Tom. "Mortality and Mercy in Vienna." Epoch, Vol. IX, No. 4 (Spring 1959): 195-213. http://www.themodernword.com/pynchon/pynchon_mortality.html http://www.pynchon.pomona.edu/uncollected/vienna.html http://www.vheissu.org/bio/eng_vienna.htm And in convenient PDF form ... www.ottosell.de/pynchon/mortalityetc.pdf I figure we can use that for pagination if need be, as I'm assuming not evryone can easily get their mitts on a copy of the original Epoch publication. So thanks Otto Sell, David Gentle, O Mighty Quail and Michel Ryckx (there oughtta be a "q" in there as well, but ...). And here's a summary from John Bailey ... http://waste.org/mail/?list=pynchon-l&month=0303 And now for something completely different, from the inimitable Glenn Scherper ... http://waste.org/mail/?list=pynchon-l&month=0303&msg=77101 Okay, so we're all on the page then? Okay ... __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From monropolitan at yahoo.com Sun Aug 8 17:56:40 2004 From: monropolitan at yahoo.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Sun, 8 Aug 2004 15:56:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: MMV "Mortality and Mercy in Vienna" Message-ID: <20040808225640.30026.qmail@web50709.mail.yahoo.com> DUKE VINCENTIO Angelo, There is a kind of character in thy life, That to the observer doth thy history Fully unfold. Thyself and thy belongings Are not thine own so proper as to waste Thyself upon thy virtues, they on thee. Heaven doth with us as we with torches do, Not light them for themselves; for if our virtues Did not go forth of us, 'twere all alike As if we had them not. Spirits are not finely touch'd But to fine issues, nor Nature never lends The smallest scruple of her excellence But, like a thrifty goddess, she determines Herself the glory of a creditor, Both thanks and use. But I do bend my speech To one that can my part in him advertise; Hold therefore, Angelo:-- In our remove be thou at full ourself; Mortality and mercy in Vienna Live in thy tongue and heart: old Escalus, Though first in question, is thy secondary. Take thy commission. (MM I.i.29-50) http://the-tech.mit.edu/Shakespeare/measure/measure.1.1.html http://ise.uvic.ca/Annex/DraftTxt/MM/MM_FScenes/MM_F1.1.html http://ise.uvic.ca/Annex/DraftTxt/MM/MM_FPages/MM_FF1.html Identifying himself with God through a paraphrase of Jesus (Matt: 5: 14�16), the Duke selects Angelo to shine forth in virtue: 'Heaven doth with us as we with torches do' (1.1.33). He makes him the dispenser of 'mortality and mercy' in Vienna and hastily departs. The Duke's secret purpose, revealed to the audience in the third scene, is 'to strike and gall' the unruly citizens by appointing a harsh deputy to enforce the laws that he himself has allowed to 'let slip', and at the same time to test the Deputy's integrity once he's been given the Duke's authority, in order to 'see | If power change purpose, what our seemers be' (1.3.53�4). Friar Thomas�named after the doubting disciple (John 20: 25)�is extremely dubious about this plan, as have been many critics, for it seems both politically impractical as well as ethically compromised. Nevertheless, the Duke's plan resembles the strategy of God the ruler trying to govern recalcitrant humanity with prophets, judges, kings, and a nation of priests while at the same time testing his chosen deputies. http://cla.calpoly.edu/~smarx/courses/431/TrueLies.html This imagery of darkness and light is inverted when one turns to Angelo, who hides the darkness of his nature initially from himself, in self-righteous piety, and then from the world, through a cynically hypocritical manipulation of the authority entrusted to him. The inner and outer dimensions of the person are thus perceived to be intimately connected; an association enunciated by the Duke in his original commission: �Mortality and mercy in Vienna/ Live in thy tongue and heart,� (1.1.44-5). James utilises exactly the same mechanism in an attempt to ground the justice, authority, and mercy of the state in the actual person of the sovereign. http://www.arts.usyd.edu.au/publications/philament/issue1_AlisonOHarae.htm In the obscure opening lines of Measure for Measure, Duke Vincentio, the ruler of Vienna, takes as his topic, "of government the properties to unfold," and the prominence of this phrase at the play's outset suggests a message for those who wield the proper powers of government, most notably the power to charge and punish for crime. Vincentio has decided to depart Vienna for a time, and rather than invest his authority in the learned Escalus--"For common justice y'are as pregnant in / As art and practice hath enriched any / That we remember."--he leaves in charge the younger Angelo: "Hold therefore, Angelo. / In our remove be thou at full ourself; / Mortality and mercy in Vienna / Live in thy tongue and heart. Old Escalus, / Though first in question, is thy secondary. Take thy commission." Although the Duke professes a high opinion of Angelo, as someone whose life advertises his virtue, others in Vienna are more dubious, especially after they have gotten a taste of Angelo's regime.... http://tarlton.law.utexas.edu/lpop/etext/okla/batey26.htm But why Angelo? The duke�s first speech (1.1.3�14) establishes Escalus as the most knowledgeable and trustworthy administrator. However, he explains to Friar Thomas, �Lord Angelo is precise,/ Stands at a guard with envy, scarce confesses/ That his blood flows or that his appetite/ Is more to bread than stone� (1.3.50�53). He has earlier told Angelo that Nature does not give us virtues to waste on ourselves, but to use, �for if our virtues/ Did not go forth of us, �twere all alike/ as if we had them not� (1.1.34�36). Angelo protests that a �test [should be] made of my mettle� (1.1.49) before being entrusted with such responsibility. Nevertheless, the duke charges him, �[B]e thou at full ourself,/ Mortality and mercy in Vienna/ Live in thy tongue and heart� (1.1.44�46), twenty lines later adding, �Your scope is as mine own,/ So to enforce or qualify the laws/ As to your soul seems good� (1.1.65-67, emphases mine). http://www.bard.org/Education/Shakespeare/measurepay.html __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Address AutoComplete - You start. We finish. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From pynchonoid at yahoo.com Sun Aug 8 19:13:49 2004 From: pynchonoid at yahoo.com (pynchonoid) Date: Sun, 8 Aug 2004 17:13:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: MMV "Mortality and Mercy in Vienna" In-Reply-To: <20040808225640.30026.qmail@web50709.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20040809001349.16915.qmail@web40703.mail.yahoo.com> Thanks for posting those notes, Dave. I wonder, is it merely sophomoric for college kid Pynchon to freight his story with such a title, or, looking ahead to the work yet to come, is it justifiably ambitious? I'm recalling that letter that was quoted, when Pynchon's letters to his agent wound up at the Morgan Library, from the early '60s, when P referred to several projects he was working on and predicted literary fame and glory if he pulled it off; in retrospect, I'd say his intuition served him well. (My question goes out to those of you who approach the early works with an open mind, not those who have already announced they aren't worth reading. But since it's a free for all here, anybody can reply, naturally, even those of you who don't want them discussed.) FYI, "Manchurian Candidate" embodies enough paranoia to satisfy just about any Pynchon fan, I'm guessing. ===== http://pynchonoid.org "everything connects" http://neoconservadroid.org "android warriors of the right" __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From brook7 at earthlink.net Sun Aug 8 22:25:55 2004 From: brook7 at earthlink.net (Joseph Tracy) Date: Sun, 8 Aug 2004 23:25:55 -0400 Subject: m&m's in V Message-ID: <410-2200481932555875@earthlink.net> Notes on 1st reading of Mortality and Mercy in Venice Leaving the party before the fun begins. So Siegel, pursuing nice jewish girl (who is also member WSC) in belated accord with gentile mother's advice gets appointed father confessor at whole sick crew party (early version WSC)in Washington D.C. Pig fetus is tacked to door( this ain't the innocent lambs blood that might ward off the Angelo of death, that host will be making his exodus in the nick of time. The party is full of weirdish cosmopolitans looking for cheap good time,booze, infatuation, confession, absolution, ... and a dark skinned primitive ojibwe( with unlikely name of Irving Loon...Washington Irving?) brought into D.C as trophy sex toy, curiosity . He seems locked in silent estrangement, but is released by vocalization of demonic/ angelic word/spirit "Windigo". Having offered questionable absolution to 2 women and summoned the angel of death, the judaeo -christian, freudian/ jesuit little machiavel, prophet/priest/schmuck Cleanth Siegel lets his people( himself) go before the shooting starts. Is Artist's(Shakespeare's) role to play god and bring divine judgement on unworthy brought into question or confirmed? Is Lucy/light boringly innocent or boringly guilty, laden with sin or laden only with useless knowledge, last glimmer of light or labyrinth leading to Minotaur?Lucifer or Margarethe. Each encounter similarly filtered through Siegel's 3rd person omniscient confessor role and more boringly predictable than last until Windigo released. Joseph Tracy brook7 at earthlink.net Why Wait? Move to EarthLink. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From keithsz at sbcglobal.net Mon Aug 9 00:09:16 2004 From: keithsz at sbcglobal.net (Keith McMullen) Date: Sun, 8 Aug 2004 22:09:16 -0700 Subject: GR III Final Six Sign-Up List In-Reply-To: <4117043F.4BE1EA35@earthlink.net> References: <21642978.1091982947977.JavaMail.root@bigbird.psp.pas.earthlink.net> <4117043F.4BE1EA35@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <43122354-E9C2-11D8-B529-000A95BDCA92@sbcglobal.net> If you would like to get GRRRR started, sign up as evidence of your willingness to host, and reply back to the P-list. 1- 2- 3- 4- 5- 6- From lycidas2 at earthlink.net Sun Aug 8 23:57:35 2004 From: lycidas2 at earthlink.net (Terrance) Date: Mon, 09 Aug 2004 00:57:35 -0400 Subject: GR III Sign-Up List References: <21642978.1091982947977.JavaMail.root@bigbird.psp.pas.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <4117043F.4BE1EA35@earthlink.net> Keith McMullen wrote: > > >>>We need at least 6 more people. <<< > > Post a sign-up list and you'll have them within 24 hours. We have sign-up list. We have Six people signed up and we're looking for Six more. From isread at btopenworld.com Mon Aug 9 01:19:55 2004 From: isread at btopenworld.com (Paul Nightingale) Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2004 07:19:55 +0100 Subject: TPPM Host List Update In-Reply-To: <001401c47bc5$580dce10$838d0f18@adminln4hlpboo> Message-ID: <000201c47dd8$e6b13e80$0201a8c0@Foucault> I'll do Watts. -----Original Message----- From: owner-pynchon-l at waste.org [mailto:owner-pynchon-l at waste.org] On Behalf Of Tim Strzechowski Sent: 06 August 2004 15:55 To: Pynchon-L Subject: TPPM Host List Update Only seven spots open.  Anyone else?     Aug. 9 - Aug. 22: "Mortality and Mercy in Vienna" (1959) -- Dave Monroe   Aug. 23 - Sept. 5: "Togetherness" (1960) --   Sept. 6 - Sept. 19: "The Gift" (1965) -- Glenn Scheper   Sept. 20 - Oct. 3: "A Journey into the Mind of Watts" (1966) -- Paul Nightingale   Oct. 4 - Oct. 17: Intro to Been Down So Long ... (1983) -- Richard Ryan     Oct. 18 - Oct. 31: "Is it O.K. to Be a Luddite?" (1984) -- Joseph Tracy   Nov. 1 - Nov. 14: "The Heart's Eternal Vow" (1988) --   Nov. 15 - Nov. 28: Intro to The Writings of Donald Barthelme (1992) --   Nov. 29 - Dec. 12: "Nearer, My Couch, to Thee" (1993) -- Tim Strzechowski     ** Assuming most folks will want a holiday hiatus until the new year ... **   Jan. 3 - Jan. 16: Spike Jones Liner Notes (1994) --   Jan 17 - Jan. 23: Lotion Liner Notes (1995) --   Jan. 24 - Feb. 6: Intro to Stone Junction (1997) --   Feb. 7 - Feb. 20: Intro to 1984 (2003) -- Joseph Tracy     From KXX4493553 at aol.com Mon Aug 9 02:50:16 2004 From: KXX4493553 at aol.com (KXX4493553 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2004 03:50:16 EDT Subject: GR III Final Six Sign-Up List Message-ID: <81.12991f22.2e4886b8@aol.com> In einer eMail vom 09.08.2004 06:11:27 Westeuropäische Normalzeit schreibt keithsz at sbcglobal.net: > If you would like to get GRRRR started, sign up as evidence of your > willingness to host, and reply back to the P-list. > > 1- > > 2- > > 3- > > 4- > > 5- > > 6- Kurt > One of the last chapters, but not earlier, for professional reasons. kwp -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From KXX4493553 at aol.com Mon Aug 9 02:52:36 2004 From: KXX4493553 at aol.com (KXX4493553 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2004 03:52:36 EDT Subject: TPPM Host List Update Message-ID: <1a3.27d52229.2e488744@aol.com> In einer eMail vom 09.08.2004 07:21:12 Westeuropäische Normalzeit schreibt isread at btopenworld.com: > Jan. 24 - Feb. 6: Intro to Stone Junction (1997) -- Kurt-Werner Poertner > kwp -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ottosell at yahoo.de Mon Aug 9 04:02:32 2004 From: ottosell at yahoo.de (Otto) Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2004 11:02:32 +0200 Subject: Hatchet Jobs Message-ID: <008d01c47def$9c5fdb40$0101a8c0@i7t2q2> Harsh reviewer should warm heart of devoted American novel reader BOOK NOTES By Fredric Koeppel, August 8, 2004 Quick quiz: Is it acceptable for a book reviewer to refer to an author as: A. A bloviating baboon. B. A moron who couldn't write his way out of a paper bag. C. A hapless smear upon all that was brave and hopeful about the American novel. D. A girlie-man. "All of the above" is the correct answer, and we have Dale Peck to thank for this freedom since he raised (or lowered) the threshold so far on what one is allowed to assert in a book review that all doors are open and no holds are barred. Peck is notorious for beginning a review of Rick Moody's book "The Black Veil: A Memoir with Digressions" with the sentence "Rick Moody is the worst writer of his generation." That line, written in 2002, sent frissons of anger and anxiety through the American literary world and precipitated a minor crisis about the ethics of reviewing. Perhaps it's only because Moody is well-connected in social-lit circles that Peck's assessment of meta-fictionist David Foster Wallace - that he would be a better writer if someone "passionately" sodomized him - didn't raise equal furor. Twelve of Peck's slash-and-burn reviews have been collected in "Hatchet Jobs: Cutting Through Contemporary Literature" (The New Press, $23.95). They originally appeared in The New Republic, The Village Voice and the London Review of Books. While it's obvious that Peck's verbal and intellectual grandstanding and his death-dealing invective occasionally obscure his larger purpose, it's also clear that he is an acutely sympathetic and analytical reader and that he cares fanatically about the art of writing. Peck is also outrageously hilarious, a quality notably absent from most journals devoted to literary matters and from the censorious or coolly dismissive reviews "Hatchet Jobs" has received in the past few weeks. Even the normally suave and witty John Leonard in the NYTBR tut-tutted about Peck's laziness, churlishness and demagoguery, becoming so upset that he slipped an agreement error into his essay and used "hair-shirt" as a verb. Peck can, it has to be said, be glib and cheap. On the other hand, when, for example, his machete of logic clears out the underbrush from Philip Roth's novel "American Pastoral" and exposes the deep-seated mysogyny "that has haunted so many of his books," we have to be grateful. Peck is the Holden Caulfield of book reviewers. He can't stand phoniness, as in Stanley Crouch's book "Don't the Moon Look Lonesome," which Peck describes as "a terrible novel, badly conceived, badly executed, and put forward in bad faith." He also thinks that essayist and reviewer Sven Birkerts is a phony, though I admit that, having read his 35-page diatribe against Birkerts twice I still don't understand exactly what roused Peck's relentless venom. If it's the case, however, that Birkerts indeed "most represents the offensive banalities of the worst mainstream reviewing combined with the defensive pieties of the 'best' haute criticism" and that he is "the most prolific and the most sanctimonious, the lowest common denominator of the American critical establishment," then perhaps we should read Birkerts more carefully, at least to test Peck's proposition. Like Holden Caulfield, whose bruised and broken innocence leads him to a breakdown, Peck is perpetually heartbroken because another author has destroyed his innocent devotion to the novel; his reaction, however, is not confusion but anger and righteousness. These dynamic (and sometimes numb ing) qualities are directed chiefly at such postmodernists as Thomas Pynchon, Don DeLillo (whose novels are "just plain stupid"), John Barth, William Gaddis, Donald Barthelme and their legions of cadet fabulators and new narrativists. What those writers (and the critics who adore them) have destroyed with narrative highjinks and digging into the "truth" about history - as if that were the novel's function - is what is most essential about the novel: its ability to make us believe in human characters and to engage with stories that reveal their humanity. Yes, that sentiment has a 19th Century ring about it - I just finished "Buddenbrooks" and am in thrall - yet Peck is correct about so much of what he says (shouts) in "Hatchet Jobs." A great deal of the fiction produced since the mid-20th Century may be clever (and monstrously sincere) but it feels soulless, merely smart, horrendously ambitious and virtuosic and, whatever its appeals to history and cultural completeness, closed-in. Two essays in "Hatchet Jobs" did not require Peck's flame-thrower. He uses a review of Kurt Vonnegut's novel "Timequake" to praise the career of American fiction's "crazy uncle." And he writes in unstinting gratitude for Rebecca Brown's spare memoir, "Excerpts from a Family Medical Dictionary." One hopes it is not the case that Peck is "no longer (going to) write negative book reviews," as he says in the book's introduction. Sure, the guy needs to grow up, but we can't afford to lose his chastening vision and his tendency to let bad writing break his heart. We should all be so sensitive. - Fredric Koeppel: 529-2376 http://www.commercialappeal.com/mca/books/article/0,1426,MCA_484_3089865,00.html (I did register, so don't waste your time) From ottosell at yahoo.de Mon Aug 9 05:13:45 2004 From: ottosell at yahoo.de (Otto) Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2004 12:13:45 +0200 Subject: Hatchet Jobs Message-ID: <00f001c47df9$8f805ee0$0101a8c0@i7t2q2> A German reader after finishing "Now it´s Time to Say Goodbye": "Ich war froh, das Buch dann endlich zuklappen zu können und den sinnlosen Gewalttaten in Galatia / Galatea entfliehen zu können." http://www.die-leselust.de/buch/peck_dale_schwarz.htm Stanley Crouch Punches Critic: The Literary Wars Turn Violent A little after two o'clock today, while novelist and book critic Dale Peck was lunching with the writer Linda Yablonsky at Tartine in the West Village, jazz critic/cultural commentator/novelist Stanley Crouch decided to introduce himself. (Peck had reviewed a novel of Crouch's a few years back; in response to that review, Crouch told Salon that Peck was "a troubled queen.") At Tartine, Crouch shook Peck's hand, then, as a follow-up, smacked him in the face, saying "if you ever did anything like that [presumably referring to the review] again, it'll be much worse." http://www.gawker.com/topic/stanley-crouch-punches-critic-the-literary-wars-turn-violent-017590.php From ottosell at yahoo.de Mon Aug 9 05:13:37 2004 From: ottosell at yahoo.de (Otto) Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2004 12:13:37 +0200 Subject: Hatchet Jobs Message-ID: <00ef01c47df9$8ac03ec0$0101a8c0@i7t2q2> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Otto" To: "Pynchon Liste" Sent: Monday, August 09, 2004 11:02 AM Subject: Hatchet Jobs > Harsh reviewer should warm heart of devoted American novel reader > BOOK NOTES > > By Fredric Koeppel, August 8, 2004 > > (...) > Peck is notorious for beginning a review of Rick Moody's book "The Black > Veil: A Memoir with Digressions" with the sentence "Rick Moody is the worst > writer of his generation." > I'm sorry, but according to my logic Peck here says that he's read all and everything of every writer of that generation to come to that conclusion. > That line, written in 2002, sent frissons of anger and anxiety through the > American literary world and precipitated a minor crisis about the ethics of > reviewing. Perhaps it's only because Moody is well-connected in social-lit > circles that Peck's assessment of meta-fictionist David Foster Wallace - > that he would be a better writer if someone "passionately" sodomized him - > didn't raise equal furor. > To me it seems as if Peck is deeply in love with DFW and wants to do that sodomizing job himself. > While it's obvious that Peck's verbal and intellectual grandstanding and his > death-dealing invective occasionally obscure his larger purpose, it's also > clear that he is an acutely sympathetic and analytical reader and that he > cares fanatically about the art of writing. > Of course I haven't read "Hatchet Jobs" yet but Koeppel at least should provide one example for this. In my opinion a sentence like "Rick Moody is the worst writer of his generation" simply doesn't sound as if a "analytical reader" has written it. > > Like Holden Caulfield, whose bruised and broken innocence leads him to a > breakdown, Peck is perpetually heartbroken because another author has > destroyed his innocent devotion to the novel; his reaction, however, is not > confusion but anger and righteousness. These dynamic (and sometimes numb > ing) qualities are directed chiefly at such postmodernists as Thomas > Pynchon, Don DeLillo (whose novels are "just plain stupid"), John Barth, > William Gaddis, Donald Barthelme and their legions of cadet fabulators and > new narrativists. > > What those writers (and the critics who adore them) have destroyed with > narrative highjinks and digging into the "truth" about history - as if that > were the novel's function - is what is most essential about the novel: its > ability to make us believe in human characters and to engage with stories > that reveal their humanity. > Here we come to the heart of the matter. What is the function of a novel? I bet Koeppel has never read John Barth's "How to Make a Universe" ("The Friday Book," pp. 13-25) or "Tales Within Tales Within Tales" (ibid, pp. 218-238) where Barth says: "(...) the proper subject of literature: 'human life, its happiness and its misery'." (218) I simply disagree that Pynchon (for example) has destroyed anything of what Koeppel claims. "Vineland" (for example) very much deals with human characters and its stories reveals the humanity or cruelty of those characters from Zoyd to Brock. > Yes, that sentiment has a 19th Century ring about it - I just finished > "Buddenbrooks" and am in thrall - yet Peck is correct about so much of what > he says (shouts) in "Hatchet Jobs." A great deal of the fiction produced > since the mid-20th Century may be clever (and monstrously sincere) but it > feels soulless, merely smart, horrendously ambitious and virtuosic and, > whatever its appeals to history and cultural completeness, closed-in. > Yes, I assert that this idea of literature is pre-modern, 19th Century style and unable to deal with human problems of the 21st Century. When I read something like: "A hapless smear upon all that was brave and hopeful about the American novel" I think I hear some Republican from Texas complaining about "Gravity's Rainbow" and other modern contemporary literature, someone who never took the time to read William Carlos Williams. > > One hopes it is not the case that Peck is "no longer (going to) write > negative book reviews," as he says in the book's introduction. Sure, the guy > needs to grow up, but we can't afford to lose his chastening vision and his > tendency to let bad writing break his heart. We should all be so sensitive. > > - Fredric Koeppel: 529-2376 > http://www.commercialappeal.com/mca/books/article/0,1426,MCA_484_3089865,00.html > (I did register, so don't waste your time) > Nobody should write negative book reviews; why waste time with a book I don't like or an writer I dismiss while there's so much literature out there I might love and my time's limited! As Peck is obviously a gay writer/critic I'd love to hear something from him about William S. Burroughs or some detailed criticism of Pynchon's way of treating homosexuality in GR. Otto From ottosell at yahoo.de Mon Aug 9 05:13:49 2004 From: ottosell at yahoo.de (Otto) Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2004 12:13:49 +0200 Subject: Hatchet Jobs Message-ID: <00f101c47df9$922f0420$0101a8c0@i7t2q2> "We get no sense of what Peck actually wants from literature." My impression was that he wants clear good and bad like in pre-modern narratives. "Charles Dickens is "the worst writer to plague the English language."" Something like this should be answered by an English Professor. Steve Almond: "PECKED TO DEATH" http://www.mobylives.com/Peck_Almond.html "If I don't say much about the strengths of the writers whom I review, nor do I offer an alternative to the writing I spend so much time dissing. Sympathetic readers have often asked, if this is what writers shouldn't be doing, then what should they do? My feeling is that the last thing readers need is a writer telling them what to read (besides his or her own books, of course). And as for writers: well, if you need me to tell you how to write a novel, then you probably shouldn't be writing one in the first place." A CRITIC'S LIFE IN A WORLD OF STEPFORD NOVELS. Hatchet Jobs by Dale Peck, Post date 11.26.03 | Issue date 12.01.03 http://www.tnr.com/doc.mhtml?pt=mBFc/9JGFQ4h0PgGzX4qAx From horvathg at delfin.klte.hu Mon Aug 9 05:19:31 2004 From: horvathg at delfin.klte.hu (horvathg) Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2004 12:19:31 +0200 Subject: MMV+Manchurian Candidate Message-ID: <20040809101937.BB839C807@delfin.unideb.hu> Hi P-lister! Just one note for Manchurian Candidate. In Slipknot's famous song: Wait and Bleed, you can find the the reference to MC. Here's the lyrics: Wait and Bleed I've felt the hate rise up in me... Kneel down and clear the stone of leaves... I wander out where you can't see... Inside my shell, I wait and bleed... Goodbye! I wipe it off on tile, the light is brighter this time Everything is 3D blasphemy My eyes are red and gold, the hair is standing straight up This is not the way I pictured me I CAN'T CONTROL MY SHAKES! How the hell did I get here? Something about this, so very wrong... I have to laugh out loud, I wish I didn't like this Is it a dream or a memory? GET OUTTA MY HEAD CUZ I DON'T NEED THIS! Why I didn't I see this? I'm a victim - Manchurian Candidate I - HAVE - SINNED - BY - JUST Makin' my mind up and takin' your breath away GOODBYE! You haven't learned a thing I haven't changed a thing My flesh was in my bones The pain was always free I've felt the hate rise up in me... Kneel down and clear the stone of leaves... I wander out where you can't see... Inside my shell, I wait and bleed... AND IT WAITS FOR YOU Reference: http://www.slipknot.at/index2.php It makes much more sense to me with this insert. bye -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ottosell at yahoo.de Mon Aug 9 05:27:30 2004 From: ottosell at yahoo.de (Otto) Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2004 12:27:30 +0200 Subject: Books Update: Nicholson Baker's Wild Talk References: <001a01c47c2a$a417a460$0101a8c0@i7t2q2> Message-ID: <001301c47dfb$7b6caec0$0101a8c0@i7t2q2> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Otto" To: "Pynchon Liste" Sent: Saturday, August 07, 2004 5:00 AM Subject: Fw: Books Update: Nicholson Baker's Wild Talk > > > > Books Update from NYTimes.com > > Friday, August 6, 2004 > > ------------------------------- > > > > Leon Wieseltier: Nicholson Baker's Wild Talk > > > "Checkpoint" by Nicholson Baker > http://www.nytimes.com/2004/08/08/books/review/08WEISELT.html Im Kopf des Attentäters George W. Bush im Fadenkreuz: In seinem neuen Roman "Checkpoint" schildert der Schriftsteller Nicholson Baker einen Dialog zwischen zwei Männern über die Ermordung des US-Präsidenten VON GERRIT BARTELS Nicholson Baker: "Checkpoint". Aus dem Amerikanischen von Eike Schönfeld. Rowohlt Verlag, Reinbek 2004, 140 Seiten taz Nr. 7430 vom 9.8.2004, Seite 16 http://www.taz.de/pt/2004/08/09/a0242.nf/text From malignd at yahoo.com Mon Aug 9 08:08:30 2004 From: malignd at yahoo.com (Malignd) Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2004 06:08:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Hatchet Jobs In-Reply-To: <00f101c47df9$922f0420$0101a8c0@i7t2q2> Message-ID: <20040809130830.11420.qmail@web12009.mail.yahoo.com> <<"We get no sense of what Peck actually wants from literature.">> He's not really worth getting worked up over. It's pretty clear the guy was hired only to stir things up, given the green light by his editor to be provocative. His pieces don't seriously address the novels he reviews; they're platforms for him to say supposedly outrageous things about the writers of those novels. It's lowbrow entertainment and his failing is in that context: not that he isn't a serious critic; rather that he's not very witty or funny. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail is new and improved - Check it out! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From davemarc at panix.com Mon Aug 9 08:49:36 2004 From: davemarc at panix.com (davemarc) Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2004 09:49:36 -0400 Subject: MMV Mortality and Mercy in Vienna, Background Message-ID: <003001c47e19$33040480$2fc654a6@gmsc20b> According to the following link, MMV appeared with this preface in the Spring 1959 issue of Epoch: "This issue of Epoch presents the first published stories of two new writers, TOM PYNCHON and RONALD SUKENICK. PYNCHON, a Wilson fellowship to begin graduate study next year..." http://www.abeauthors1.com/servlet/BookDetailsPL?bi=263649666 The founder/editor of Epoch, which is published out of Cornell, was Baxter Hathaway. About Hathaway, Pynchon has written the following: "All fall and winter I had been having writer's block. I was taking a writing seminar run by Baxter Hathaway. Having returned that semester after some time off, he was an unknown quantity, and terrified me. The course had been going on for some time, and I hadn't handed in a thing. 'Come on,' people advised me, 'he's a nice guy. Don't worry about it.' Were they kidding, or what? It was getting to be a major problem. Finally about halfway through the semester there arrived in the mail one of those cartoon cards, showing a toilet stall covered with graffiti. 'You've practiced long enough,' it said - open the card - 'Now write!' It was signed 'Baxter Hathaway.'" Dave Monroe supplied the above paragraph and other Baxter-related info in 2002 -- http://www.waste.org/mail/?list=pynchon-l&month=0211&msg=72822&keywords=baxt er -- but given Sukenick's recent death, I thought it was worth noting the Epoch-al intersection between P and S in Hathaway's literary journal. Also, it's interesting to think about Hathaway as an early teacher and champion of Pynchon and as an influence on the budding novelist. For those interested in such matters, there's a suggestion that Hathaway was not a fan of Nabokov at this Farina-related page: http://www.richardandmimi.com/cameos.html d. From glenn_scheper at earthlink.net Mon Aug 9 09:15:29 2004 From: glenn_scheper at earthlink.net (Glenn Scheper) Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2004 07:15:29 -0700 (GMT-07:00) Subject: The virtue of idleness Message-ID: <12071466.1092060929459.JavaMail.root@misspiggy.psp.pas.earthlink.net> > "early to bed and early to rise ..." I thought that was a tantric prescription. Yours truly, Glenn Scheper http://home.earthlink.net/~glenn_scheper/ glenn_scheper + at + earthlink.net Copyleft(!) Forward freely. From himself at richardryan.com Mon Aug 9 09:32:26 2004 From: himself at richardryan.com (Himself) Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2004 10:32:26 -0400 Subject: The virtue of idleness In-Reply-To: <12071466.1092060929459.JavaMail.root@misspiggy.psp.pas.earthlink.net> Message-ID: Isn't it? -----Original Message----- From: owner-pynchon-l at waste.org [mailto:owner-pynchon-l at waste.org]On Behalf Of Glenn Scheper Sent: Monday, August 09, 2004 10:15 AM To: pynchon-l at waste.org Subject: Re: The virtue of idleness > "early to bed and early to rise ..." I thought that was a tantric prescription. Yours truly, Glenn Scheper http://home.earthlink.net/~glenn_scheper/ glenn_scheper + at + earthlink.net Copyleft(!) Forward freely. From monropolitan at yahoo.com Mon Aug 9 11:31:35 2004 From: monropolitan at yahoo.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2004 09:31:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Fwd: The MMIV summary Message-ID: <20040809163135.94339.qmail@web50710.mail.yahoo.com> Hit and run this morning, back later this evening, but in the emantime, apparently I, er, miscopied ... > The correct URL for the Bailey summary is > > http://waste.org/mail/?list=pynchon-l&month=0303&msg=77225&sort=date Thanks, er, "TGL." I would note, by the way, that the "&sort=" whatever is largely superfluous, the month and message numbers are the important bits. On the other hand, I HAVE found that, from time to time, those message numbers for whatever reasons change ... __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From monropolitan at yahoo.com Mon Aug 9 11:34:53 2004 From: monropolitan at yahoo.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2004 09:34:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: GR III Final Six Sign-Up List In-Reply-To: <43122354-E9C2-11D8-B529-000A95BDCA92@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <20040809163453.47613.qmail@web50704.mail.yahoo.com> These slots are for, er, sprocket-hole-to-sprocket-hole episodes, right? I'll be happy to attempt one, at least, once I'm past MMV, and I get a better idea of what Terrance is proposing and how others handle the format. I came in mid-last GR, but waited 'til V. to attempt hosting. I'll try to jump in mre soonly this time. But if a slot goes unclaimed among these, i'll see what I can do more immediately. Thanks ... --- Keith McMullen wrote: > If you would like to get GRRRR started, sign up as > evidence of your willingness to host ... __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail is new and improved - Check it out! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From lycidas2 at earthlink.net Mon Aug 9 13:31:42 2004 From: lycidas2 at earthlink.net (Terrance) Date: Mon, 09 Aug 2004 14:31:42 -0400 Subject: MMV "Mortality and Mercy in Vienna" (Jesuit Jew) Profane Benny) References: <20040808225640.30026.qmail@web50709.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4117C30E.F06ADB47@earthlink.net> A Hungarian Setting. Shakespeare moves and converts it to the low-comedy activities of the libertines, bawds, and whores who infested the Red Light districts of the suburbs. Da Da Less. http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14286b.htm From lycidas2 at earthlink.net Mon Aug 9 13:35:00 2004 From: lycidas2 at earthlink.net (Terrance) Date: Mon, 09 Aug 2004 14:35:00 -0400 Subject: MMV "Mortality and Mercy in Vienna" (Jesuit Jew) Profane Benny) References: <20040808225640.30026.qmail@web50709.mail.yahoo.com> <4117C30E.F06ADB47@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <4117C3D4.AB36AF53@earthlink.net> http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14287a.htm From r.romeo at atlanticphilanthropies.org Mon Aug 9 14:09:06 2004 From: r.romeo at atlanticphilanthropies.org (Richard Romeo) Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2004 15:09:06 -0400 Subject: RIP Fay Wray Message-ID: <55B62A3E95D99F4FBEC800D73AC2F2536EBD2E@nyc1a.local.atlanticphilanthropies.org> Rich -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From monropolitan at yahoo.com Mon Aug 9 16:06:05 2004 From: monropolitan at yahoo.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2004 14:06:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: RIP Fay Wray In-Reply-To: <55B62A3E95D99F4FBEC800D73AC2F2536EBD2E@nyc1a.local.atlanticphilanthropies.org> Message-ID: <20040809210605.75597.qmail@web50709.mail.yahoo.com> "You will have the tallest, darkest leading man in Hollywood." (GR, Pt. II, p. 179) 'King Kong' actress Fay Wray dead Performer was 96 Monday, August 9, 2004 Posted: 4:17 PM EDT (2017 GMT) NEW YORK (AP) -- Fay Wray, who won everlasting fame as the damsel held atop the Empire State Building by the giant ape in the 1933 film classic "King Kong," has died, a close friend said Monday. She was 96. Wray died Sunday at her Manhattan apartment, said Rick McKay, a friend and director of the last film she appeared in. There was no official cause of death. "She just kind of drifted off quietly as if she was going to sleep," said McKay, director of the documentary "Broadway: The Golden Age." "She just kind of gave out." ... http://www.cnn.com/2004/SHOWBIZ/Movies/08/09/obit.wray.ap/index.html __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From madness at airmail.net Mon Aug 9 22:30:54 2004 From: madness at airmail.net (Mark A. Douglas) Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2004 22:30:54 -0500 Subject: Hatchet Jobs In-Reply-To: <008d01c47def$9c5fdb40$0101a8c0@i7t2q2> Message-ID: Just a note from a former Memphian: F. Koeppel, a failed instructor at the University there, has been insuring that Memphis is one of the least literate cities in the world for more than a decade with his awkward and jilted-loveresque reviews, so to read one godawful reviewer on another is quite the amusement tonight. Peace Mark Note: the only other book reviewer in town runs a used bookstore and regularly sells Koeppel's rejects on consignment for him, normally with the review copy slips still inside the book. It's a small world after all. -----Original Message----- From: owner-pynchon-l at waste.org [mailto:owner-pynchon-l at waste.org] On Behalf Of Otto Sent: Monday, August 09, 2004 4:03 AM To: Pynchon Liste Subject: Hatchet Jobs Harsh reviewer should warm heart of devoted American novel reader BOOK NOTES By Fredric Koeppel, August 8, 2004 Quick quiz: Is it acceptable for a book reviewer to refer to an author as: A. A bloviating baboon. B. A moron who couldn't write his way out of a paper bag. C. A hapless smear upon all that was brave and hopeful about the American novel. D. A girlie-man. "All of the above" is the correct answer, and we have Dale Peck to thank for this freedom since he raised (or lowered) the threshold so far on what one is allowed to assert in a book review that all doors are open and no holds are barred. Peck is notorious for beginning a review of Rick Moody's book "The Black Veil: A Memoir with Digressions" with the sentence "Rick Moody is the worst writer of his generation." That line, written in 2002, sent frissons of anger and anxiety through the American literary world and precipitated a minor crisis about the ethics of reviewing. Perhaps it's only because Moody is well-connected in social-lit circles that Peck's assessment of meta-fictionist David Foster Wallace - that he would be a better writer if someone "passionately" sodomized him - didn't raise equal furor. Twelve of Peck's slash-and-burn reviews have been collected in "Hatchet Jobs: Cutting Through Contemporary Literature" (The New Press, $23.95). They originally appeared in The New Republic, The Village Voice and the London Review of Books. While it's obvious that Peck's verbal and intellectual grandstanding and his death-dealing invective occasionally obscure his larger purpose, it's also clear that he is an acutely sympathetic and analytical reader and that he cares fanatically about the art of writing. Peck is also outrageously hilarious, a quality notably absent from most journals devoted to literary matters and from the censorious or coolly dismissive reviews "Hatchet Jobs" has received in the past few weeks. Even the normally suave and witty John Leonard in the NYTBR tut-tutted about Peck's laziness, churlishness and demagoguery, becoming so upset that he slipped an agreement error into his essay and used "hair-shirt" as a verb. Peck can, it has to be said, be glib and cheap. On the other hand, when, for example, his machete of logic clears out the underbrush from Philip Roth's novel "American Pastoral" and exposes the deep-seated mysogyny "that has haunted so many of his books," we have to be grateful. Peck is the Holden Caulfield of book reviewers. He can't stand phoniness, as in Stanley Crouch's book "Don't the Moon Look Lonesome," which Peck describes as "a terrible novel, badly conceived, badly executed, and put forward in bad faith." He also thinks that essayist and reviewer Sven Birkerts is a phony, though I admit that, having read his 35-page diatribe against Birkerts twice I still don't understand exactly what roused Peck's relentless venom. If it's the case, however, that Birkerts indeed "most represents the offensive banalities of the worst mainstream reviewing combined with the defensive pieties of the 'best' haute criticism" and that he is "the most prolific and the most sanctimonious, the lowest common denominator of the American critical establishment," then perhaps we should read Birkerts more carefully, at least to test Peck's proposition. Like Holden Caulfield, whose bruised and broken innocence leads him to a breakdown, Peck is perpetually heartbroken because another author has destroyed his innocent devotion to the novel; his reaction, however, is not confusion but anger and righteousness. These dynamic (and sometimes numb ing) qualities are directed chiefly at such postmodernists as Thomas Pynchon, Don DeLillo (whose novels are "just plain stupid"), John Barth, William Gaddis, Donald Barthelme and their legions of cadet fabulators and new narrativists. What those writers (and the critics who adore them) have destroyed with narrative highjinks and digging into the "truth" about history - as if that were the novel's function - is what is most essential about the novel: its ability to make us believe in human characters and to engage with stories that reveal their humanity. Yes, that sentiment has a 19th Century ring about it - I just finished "Buddenbrooks" and am in thrall - yet Peck is correct about so much of what he says (shouts) in "Hatchet Jobs." A great deal of the fiction produced since the mid-20th Century may be clever (and monstrously sincere) but it feels soulless, merely smart, horrendously ambitious and virtuosic and, whatever its appeals to history and cultural completeness, closed-in. Two essays in "Hatchet Jobs" did not require Peck's flame-thrower. He uses a review of Kurt Vonnegut's novel "Timequake" to praise the career of American fiction's "crazy uncle." And he writes in unstinting gratitude for Rebecca Brown's spare memoir, "Excerpts from a Family Medical Dictionary." One hopes it is not the case that Peck is "no longer (going to) write negative book reviews," as he says in the book's introduction. Sure, the guy needs to grow up, but we can't afford to lose his chastening vision and his tendency to let bad writing break his heart. We should all be so sensitive. - Fredric Koeppel: 529-2376 http://www.commercialappeal.com/mca/books/article/0,1426,MCA_484_3089865,00. html (I did register, so don't waste your time) From quail at libyrinth.com Mon Aug 9 22:34:02 2004 From: quail at libyrinth.com (The Great Quail) Date: Mon, 09 Aug 2004 23:34:02 -0400 Subject: More Pynchon on The Simpsons? Message-ID: Has anyone seen or commented on this yet? http://www.billboard.com/bb/daily/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1000603 472 I'd cut and paste the relevant material, but my browser doesn't like me right now... --Quail From ottosell at yahoo.de Tue Aug 10 02:56:59 2004 From: ottosell at yahoo.de (Otto) Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 09:56:59 +0200 Subject: More Pynchon on The Simpsons? References: Message-ID: <002201c47eaf$9efeece0$0101a8c0@i7t2q2> THE INFORMATION YOU REQUESTED IS ONLY AVAILABLE TO SUBSCRIBERS ----- Original Message ----- From: "The Great Quail" To: "The Whole Sick Crew" Sent: Tuesday, August 10, 2004 5:34 AM Subject: More Pynchon on The Simpsons? > Has anyone seen or commented on this yet? > > http://www.billboard.com/bb/daily/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1000603 > 472 > > I'd cut and paste the relevant material, but my browser doesn't like me > right now... > > --Quail > From ghetta_outta at hotmail.com Tue Aug 10 08:22:06 2004 From: ghetta_outta at hotmail.com (Ghetta Life) Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 13:22:06 +0000 Subject: More Pynchon on The Simpsons? Message-ID: I went there, but only found "Billboard Bits: 50 Cent, Pixies, Miller/Keen." No Pynchon. >From: The Great Quail >Has anyone seen or commented on this yet? > >http://www.billboard.com/bb/daily/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1000603472 _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From joe at barrera.org Tue Aug 10 08:21:15 2004 From: joe at barrera.org (Joseph S. Barrera III) Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 06:21:15 -0700 Subject: More Pynchon on The Simpsons? In-Reply-To: <002201c47eaf$9efeece0$0101a8c0@i7t2q2> References: <002201c47eaf$9efeece0$0101a8c0@i7t2q2> Message-ID: <4118CBCB.8080301@barrera.org> Otto wrote: > THE INFORMATION YOU REQUESTED IS ONLY AVAILABLE TO SUBSCRIBERS Here's what it said: Billboard Bits: 50 Cent, Pixies, Miller/Keen 50 Cent will be among the guest voices heard in the forthcoming 16th season of the animated Fox series "The Simpsons." The G-Unit rapper will reportedly be featured in an episode dubbed "Pranksta Rap." No airdate has been set for the episode. Providing fodder for a special broadcast is the 2004 Super Bowl halftime show, which found Janet Jackson's breast exposed thanks to fellow performer Justin Timberlake and a "wardrobe malfunction." In an episode set to air Feb. 6, immediately following Super Bowl XXXIX, family patriarch Homer Simpson and do-gooder neighbor Ned Flanders will draw the ire of America for their halftime show's "blatant display of decency," according to Fox. Football player Warren Sapp, skater Michelle Kwan and basketball players Yao Ming and LeBron James will guest star in the episode. Other guest voices to be heard in the new season include actors Ray Romano, Kim Catrall and James Caan, architect Frank Gehry and author Thomas Pynchon. From ghetta_outta at hotmail.com Tue Aug 10 08:23:59 2004 From: ghetta_outta at hotmail.com (Ghetta Life) Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 13:23:59 +0000 Subject: More Pynchon on The Simpsons? Message-ID: Oh. Found this: In an episode set to air Feb. 6, immediately following Super Bowl XXXIX, family patriarch Homer Simpson and do-gooder neighbor Ned Flanders will draw the ire of America for their halftime show's "blatant display of decency," according to Fox. Football player Warren Sapp, skater Michelle Kwan and basketball players Yao Ming and LeBron James will guest star in the episode. Other guest voices to be heard in the new season include actors Ray Romano, Kim Catrall and James Caan, architect Frank Gehry and author Thomas Pynchon. _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From r.romeo at atlanticphilanthropies.org Tue Aug 10 09:29:29 2004 From: r.romeo at atlanticphilanthropies.org (Richard Romeo) Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 10:29:29 -0400 Subject: More Pynchon on The Simpsons? Message-ID: <55B62A3E95D99F4FBEC800D73AC2F2536EBD32@nyc1a.local.atlanticphilanthropies.org> You haven't been reading my e-mails, dude ;) I noticed mention of a 2nd appearance by Mr. P a few weeks ago Woo-hoo!!!!!!!! Richard -----Original Message----- From: owner-pynchon-l at waste.org [mailto:owner-pynchon-l at waste.org] On Behalf Of The Great Quail Sent: Monday, August 09, 2004 11:34 PM To: The Whole Sick Crew Subject: More Pynchon on The Simpsons? Has anyone seen or commented on this yet? http://www.billboard.com/bb/daily/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=100 0603 472 I'd cut and paste the relevant material, but my browser doesn't like me right now... --Quail From ottosell at yahoo.de Tue Aug 10 09:50:09 2004 From: ottosell at yahoo.de (Otto) Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 16:50:09 +0200 Subject: More Pynchon on The Simpsons? References: <002201c47eaf$9efeece0$0101a8c0@i7t2q2> <4118CBCB.8080301@barrera.org> Message-ID: <002301c47ee9$56de3760$0101a8c0@i7t2q2> Thanks! ----- Original Message ----- From: "Joseph S. Barrera III" To: "The Whole Sick Crew" Sent: Tuesday, August 10, 2004 3:21 PM Subject: Re: More Pynchon on The Simpsons? > > > Other guest voices to be heard in the new season include actors Ray > Romano, Kim Catrall and James Caan, architect Frank Gehry and author > Thomas Pynchon. > So he obviously had his fun . . . Otto From r.romeo at atlanticphilanthropies.org Tue Aug 10 09:56:11 2004 From: r.romeo at atlanticphilanthropies.org (Richard Romeo) Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 10:56:11 -0400 Subject: More Pynchon on The Simpsons? Message-ID: <55B62A3E95D99F4FBEC800D73AC2F2536EBD36@nyc1a.local.atlanticphilanthropies.org> "wait, there's more" and there is rich -----Original Message----- From: owner-pynchon-l at waste.org [mailto:owner-pynchon-l at waste.org] On Behalf Of Otto Sent: Tuesday, August 10, 2004 10:50 AM To: The Whole Sick Crew Subject: Re: More Pynchon on The Simpsons? Thanks! ----- Original Message ----- From: "Joseph S. Barrera III" To: "The Whole Sick Crew" Sent: Tuesday, August 10, 2004 3:21 PM Subject: Re: More Pynchon on The Simpsons? > > > Other guest voices to be heard in the new season include actors Ray > Romano, Kim Catrall and James Caan, architect Frank Gehry and author > Thomas Pynchon. > So he obviously had his fun . . . Otto From ottosell at yahoo.de Tue Aug 10 11:04:07 2004 From: ottosell at yahoo.de (Otto) Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 18:04:07 +0200 Subject: RIP Fay Wray References: <20040809210605.75597.qmail@web50709.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <003501c47ef3$abe0b6c0$0101a8c0@i7t2q2> "We've seen them under a thousand names . "Greta Erdmann" is only one, these dames whose job it is always to cringe from the Terror ." "(.) Slothrop, who is wearing a blonde wig and the same flowing white cross-banded number Fay Wray wears in her screentest scene with Robert Armstrong on the boat (.)." (688-689) Can somebody tell me which one it is? http://www.shillpages.com/faywray/wrayf.htm#kingkong Otto ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave Monroe" To: "Richard Romeo" ; "Pynchon-L" Sent: Monday, August 09, 2004 11:06 PM Subject: Re: RIP Fay Wray > "You will have the tallest, darkest leading man in > Hollywood." (GR, Pt. II, p. 179) > > 'King Kong' actress Fay Wray dead > Performer was 96 > Monday, August 9, 2004 Posted: 4:17 PM EDT (2017 GMT) > > NEW YORK (AP) -- Fay Wray, who won everlasting fame as > the damsel held atop the Empire State Building by the > giant ape in the 1933 film classic "King Kong," has > died, a close friend said Monday. She was 96. > > Wray died Sunday at her Manhattan apartment, said Rick > McKay, a friend and director of the last film she > appeared in. There was no official cause of death. > > "She just kind of drifted off quietly as if she was > going to sleep," said McKay, director of the > documentary "Broadway: The Golden Age." > > "She just kind of gave out." ... > > http://www.cnn.com/2004/SHOWBIZ/Movies/08/09/obit.wray.ap/index.html > > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages! > http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From monropolitan at yahoo.com Tue Aug 10 11:51:26 2004 From: monropolitan at yahoo.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 09:51:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: RIP Fay Wray In-Reply-To: <003501c47ef3$abe0b6c0$0101a8c0@i7t2q2> Message-ID: <20040810165126.97549.qmail@web50705.mail.yahoo.com> Robert Armstrong = "Carl Denham," so ... http://imdb.com/title/tt0024216/ So I'm assuming the sequence beginning @ ... http://www.shillpages.com/faywray/wrayfo52.jpg Jeez, what'd they do, scan in the ferschlugginer film frame by frame? Helluva site there, Otto, thanks ... --- Otto wrote: > > "(.) Slothrop, who is wearing a blonde wig and the > same flowing white cross-banded number Fay Wray > wears in her screentest scene with Robert Armstrong > on the boat (.)." (688-689) > > Can somebody tell me which one it is? > http://www.shillpages.com/faywray/wrayf.htm#kingkong __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Get it on your mobile phone. http://mobile.yahoo.com/maildemo From ottosell at yahoo.de Tue Aug 10 11:56:33 2004 From: ottosell at yahoo.de (Otto) Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 18:56:33 +0200 Subject: RIP Fay Wray References: <20040810165126.97549.qmail@web50705.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <003d01c47efa$ff412640$0101a8c0@i7t2q2> I agree, just updated this: www.ottosell.de/pynchon/fay.htm ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave Monroe" To: "Otto" ; "Pynchon-L" Sent: Tuesday, August 10, 2004 6:51 PM Subject: Re: RIP Fay Wray > Robert Armstrong = "Carl Denham," so ... > > http://imdb.com/title/tt0024216/ > > So I'm assuming the sequence beginning @ ... > > http://www.shillpages.com/faywray/wrayfo52.jpg > > Jeez, what'd they do, scan in the ferschlugginer film > frame by frame? Helluva site there, Otto, thanks ... > > --- Otto wrote: > > > > "(.) Slothrop, who is wearing a blonde wig and the > > same flowing white cross-banded number Fay Wray > > wears in her screentest scene with Robert Armstrong > > on the boat (.)." (688-689) > > > > Can somebody tell me which one it is? > > http://www.shillpages.com/faywray/wrayf.htm#kingkong > From scuffling at hotmail.com Tue Aug 10 12:51:21 2004 From: scuffling at hotmail.com (Ian Scuffling) Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 13:51:21 -0400 Subject: RIP Fay Wray In-Reply-To: <003d01c47efa$ff412640$0101a8c0@i7t2q2> Message-ID: MY favorite KK scene has always been Ann Darrow back on the boat with Driscoll after the initial landing attempt (screencaps numbered 95 through 110 on the site that Otto referred to, http://www.shillpages.com/faywray/wrayf.htm#kingkong). She is SO hot for him, and he's so oblivious. Keep cool, but care. Henry M From monropolitan at yahoo.com Tue Aug 10 19:02:31 2004 From: monropolitan at yahoo.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 17:02:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: LPPM MMV "Siegel" Message-ID: <20040811000231.31699.qmail@web50709.mail.yahoo.com> "Just as Siegel got to the address Rachel had given him it started to rain again...." (MMV, p. 1) Siegel Who is Jules Siegel? Jules Siegel is a scientifically-literate writer, photographer and graphic designer.... http://www.cafecancun.com/bookarts/jsiegel.htm In the world of Pynchon scholarship and cultural plurality, Jules Siegel is perhaps best known for his famous article "Who Is Thomas Pynchon ... And Why Is He Taking Off With My Wife?" (originally published in Playboy, March, 1977). For those of us who missed it during the last 20 years, the article is reprinted in its entirety in his new book, Lineland, although it is not mentioned in the book's table of "Contents." It tells the story of how Siegel's first wife Chrissie Jolly was involved with perhaps the greatest writer of the late 20th century, Thomas Pynchon. Siegel's name also emerges from the depths of Pynchonian history, in a character named Cleanth Siegel, from Pynchon's first short story "Mortality and Mercy in Vienna" Epoch 9, no. 4 (Spring 1959): 195-213, which also accounts for part of Lineland's subtitle.... http://www.themodernword.com/pynchon/pynchon_lineland.html Siegel, Jules. "Who is Thomas Pynchon ... and Why Did He Take off with My Wife?," Playboy 34 (March 1977): 97, 122, 168-74. http://waste.org/mail/?list=pynchon-l&month=9505&msg=1496 http://waste.org/mail/?list=pynchon-l&month=9505&msg=1497 Siegel, Jules and Christine Wexler. Lineland: Mortality and Mercy on the Internet's Pynchon-L at Waste.Org Discussion List. Philadelphia: Intangible Assets Mfg., 1997. http://www.cafecancun.com/bookarts/lineland.htm Rachel �Siegel� is German for �seal�, and similar to �sigil� as well. Or it could be, you know, someone he knew. �Rachel� is Hebrew for �innocent lamb� or similar. Note that female characters in this story are frequently given only a first name, (Debby Considine is the exception), while male characters are given a surname or full name. http://waste.org/mail/?list=pynchon-l&month=0303&msg=77296 __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From monropolitan at yahoo.com Tue Aug 10 19:04:48 2004 From: monropolitan at yahoo.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 17:04:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: MMV "Mortality and Mercy in Vienna" In-Reply-To: <20040808225640.30026.qmail@web50709.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20040811000448.32280.qmail@web50709.mail.yahoo.com> Pynchon takes the title of his next story from Shakespeare's Measure for Measure, wherein Duke Vincentio deputizes Angelo to rule in his absence, to clean up Vienna, grown lawless and licentious. The Duke grants Angelo life-and-death power of the state when he says: In our remove be thou at full ourself. Mortality and mercy in Vienna Live in thy tongue and heart. (1.1.43-45) Angelo begins by pulling down the brothels and putting into effect an old Draconian law by making incontinence (inability to restrain appetites, unchastity, according to the O.E.D.) a capital crime. Pynchon begins his story by leading us form the text to Angelo's role in Measure for Measure, which he expects readers to carry enthymematically in suspended state until he reveals his purpose for evoking this particular bit of Shakespeare. It is the beginning of his second story, and Pynchon is again alluding to something (a hint, a clue) outside the text. http://www.vheissu.org/art/art_eng_SL_hollander.htm#chap_7 http://www.vheissu.org/art/art_eng_SL_hollander.htm __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From monropolitan at yahoo.com Tue Aug 10 19:16:13 2004 From: monropolitan at yahoo.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 17:16:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: LPPM MMV "Cherry Blossoms" Message-ID: <20040811001613.26996.qmail@web50706.mail.yahoo.com> "All day the rain clouds had hung low and ragged-edged over Washington, ruining the view from the top of the Monument for the high-school kids on their senior trips, sending brief squalls which drove tourists squealing and cursing in to finmd shelter, dulling the delicate pink of the cherry blossoms which had just come out." (MMV, p. 1) "the Monument" Dedicated - 1885 National Memorial - August 2, 1876 http://www.nps.gov/wash/index.htm http://www.nps.gov/wash/ History of the WASHINGTON MONUMENT 1844-1968 Washington, D.C. by George J. Olszewski April 1971 http://www.nps.gov/wamo/history/ http://www.nps.gov/wamo/history/contents.htm http://www.nps.gov/wamo/home.htm/ "cherry blossoms" The National Cherry Blossom Festival annually commemorates the 1912 gift to the city of Washington of 3,000 cherry trees from Mayor Yukio Ozaki of Tokyo to enhance the growing friendship between the United States and Japan and celebrate the continued close relationship between our two peoples. In a simple ceremony on March 27, 1912, First Lady Helen Herron Taft and Viscountess Chinda, wife of the Japanese ambassador, planted the first two of these trees on the north bank of the Tidal Basin in West Potomac Park. By 1915 the United States government had responded with a gift of flowering dogwood trees to the people of Japan. In 1927, a group of American school children reenacted the initial planting; the first festival was held in 1935, sponsored by civic groups in the nation's capital.... http://www.nationalcherryblossomfestival.org/cms/index.php?id=574 The National Cherry Blossom Festival, Inc. http://www.nationalcherryblossomfestival.org/cms/index.php?id=390 The 2005 National Cherry Blossom Festival is scheduled for March 26-April 11.... http://www.nps.gov/nacc/cherry/ _______________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Express yourself with Y! Messenger! Free. Download now. http://messenger.yahoo.com From monropolitan at yahoo.com Tue Aug 10 19:22:50 2004 From: monropolitan at yahoo.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 17:22:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: LPPM MMV "Dupont Circle" Message-ID: <20040811002250.4724.qmail@web50702.mail.yahoo.com> "The address was a small apartment building on a quiet street near Dupont Circle, and Siegel dove into the lobby, in out of the rain, clutching the fifth of scotch he was carrying as if it were a state secret." (MMV, p. 1) "Dupont Circle" It was the Board of Public works under the leadership of Alexander Shepherd that spearheaded the way for the development of Dupont Circle. Nevada Senator William Morris Stewart led the "California Syndicate" which bought up tracts of undeveloped land. The style of the neighborhood was set when Stewart erected his mansion (now demolished) in the 1870s. By the late 1880s the Dupont neighborhood was an affluent and vibrant neighborhood. In 1871 the Corps of Engineers began construction of Dupont Circle itself which at the time was called Pacific Circle. In 1882 Congress authorized a memorial statue of Rear Admiral Samuel Francis duPont in recognition of his Civil War service. The bronze statue was erected in 1884. In 1921 the statue of Dupont was replaced by a double-tiered white marble fountain. It was designed by sculptor Daniel Chester French and architect Henry Bacon. Three classical figures, symbolizing the Sea, the Stars and the Wind are carved on the fountain's central shaft. The Dupont Circle Historic District is a primarily residential district extending generally in all directions from Dupont Circle. The area was developed in the last quarter of the 19th century and the early years of the 20th century. Two types of housing predominate in the historic district: palatial mansions and freestanding residences built in the styles popular between 1895 and 1910; and three-and-four-story rowhouses, many of which are variations on the Queen Anne and Richardsonian Romanesque Revival styles, built primarily before the turn of the century. The mansions line the broad, tree-lined diagonal avenues that intersect the circle and the rowhouses line the grid streets of the historic district. This juxtaposition of house types and street pattern gives the area a unique character. When the Dupont Circle area first became a fashionable residential neighborhood some of this community's wealthiest residents constructed houses here.... [...] The majority of the houses in the Dupont Circle Historic District are not mansions, however. The blocks along the grid streets are lined with rowhouses that were occupied by middle-class professionals and official Washingtonians. The styles employed in designing these rowhouses which were built from the 1880s into the first decade of the 20th century, range from Queen Anne to Richardsonian Revival to Renaissance and Georgian Revival. Variations on Queen Anne and Richardsonian Romanesque were most prevalent in this area of DC. Some of the rows were designed as a unit by a single architect while others were individually built and designed. The row on the south side of the 1700 block of Q Street, designed in 1889 by T.F. Schneider, is one of the most impressive Richardsonian rows in the area. The north side of the 2000 block of N Street is one of the finest Second Empire rows in the district. These houses were built between 1879 and 1881 by Christopher Thom. The 2000 block of Hillyer Place contains a variety of styles, especially Queen Anne and Richardsonian Romanesque. One of the most varied and architecturally intact blocks is the 1700 block of N Street which reflects the breadth of architectural talent in the area. A commercial corridor along Connecticut Avenue and P Street west of the circle developed in this district. The early commercial buildings are small in scale and do not detract from the district's character. In recent years, pressure for large-scale commercial office development on Connecticut Avenue has been intense. A number of new office buildings, some unsympathetic to the historic district line the northern and southern fringes of Connecticut Avenue. Dupont Circle Historic District is roughly bounded by Rhode Island Avenue, NW; M and N Sts., NW, on the south; Florida Avenue, NW, on the west; Swann St., NW, on the north; and the 16th Street Historic District on the east. The buildings described are private and not open to the public. Metro stop: Dupont Circle http://www.cr.nps.gov/nr/travel/wash/dc50.htm Dupont Circle, Embassy Row & Kalorama http://www.cr.nps.gov/nr/travel/wash/dupontmap.htm __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail is new and improved - Check it out! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From lycidas2 at earthlink.net Tue Aug 10 19:31:51 2004 From: lycidas2 at earthlink.net (Terrance) Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 20:31:51 -0400 Subject: LPPM MMV "Siegel" References: <20040811000231.31699.qmail@web50709.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <411968F7.7EE85B82@earthlink.net> Dave Monroe wrote: > > "Just as Siegel got to the address Rachel had > given him it started to rain again...." (MMV, p. 1) > > Siegel > > Who is Jules Siegel? Jules? A Jewish Catholic boy from the Bronx? Seems to me that Jules has little to do with the story or the characters in it. Protestant-Catholic-Jew An Essay in American Religious Sociology by Will Herberg, Martin E. Marty, Illustrator http://www.semcoop.com/detail/0226327345 Measure For Measure is Shakespeare's most "Catholic" Play. Shakespeare, like Pynchon, was a Catholic-Puritan. Worth considering that P alludes to Joyce too. The Hungarian Bloom. P was light-years ahead of Updike. From lycidas2 at earthlink.net Tue Aug 10 19:36:08 2004 From: lycidas2 at earthlink.net (Terrance) Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 20:36:08 -0400 Subject: MMV "Mortality and Mercy in Vienna" References: <20040811000448.32280.qmail@web50709.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <411969F8.772F617E@earthlink.net> Dave Monroe wrote: > > Pynchon takes the title of his next story from > Shakespeare's Measure for Measure, Measure For Measure. Jewish Law. Catholic Setting. Protestant Monarch. Wans't the play performed for Christmas? Hey, who gunned down those licentious Catholics and Jews? St. Stephen with a rose .... From monropolitan at yahoo.com Tue Aug 10 19:45:16 2004 From: monropolitan at yahoo.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 17:45:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: LPPM MMV "There Had Been Times" Message-ID: <20040811004516.58320.qmail@web50710.mail.yahoo.com> "Theree had been times--during the past year, in the Avenue Kleber or the Viale delle Terme di Caraclalla--where there had been a brief case where the fifth was now, clutched under the same tweed-clad arm against rain or a deadline or some bureaucratic necessity." (MMV, p. 1) Avenue Kleber Paris: The 16th Arrondissement: South of the Arc de Triomphe, avenue Kleber leads to the monumental buildings and terraced gardens of the Trocadero, an area transformed for the 1937 Exposition Universelle. The vast symmetrical curved wings of the Palais de Chaillot dominate the hill, with spectacular view over the river to the Eiffel Tower. It houses maritime and anthropological museums, the Cinematheque and the Theatre National de Chaillot. West of here, most of the 16th arrondissement is pearls-and-poodle country, dotted with important curios, avant-garde architecture and classy shops. http://www.theeuropeconnection.com/27/page27.html Viale delle Terme di Caraclalla These baths were built in the 3rd century A.D. by the Emperor Caracalla, and they operated for about two hundred years, before the barbarian invasions and the subsequent interruption in the water supply. The area was abandoned for a certain time, and then in 1400 the first excavations began, uncovering works that can be found in Palazzo Farnese and the Vatican Museums. As well as the ruins of the baths, there are the remains of a temple dedicated to the god Mithra, conserving the benches used for the mystic meals taken by the followers, the floor in white mosaic with black strips, and the hollow where the blood pouring down from the sacrifices collected. In August, the baths provide the backdrop for opera performances. http://americanairlines.wcities.com/en/record/150,9446/10/ Baths of Caracalla Emperor Caracalla built this enormous complex of Baths in 212-217 AD to curry favor with the Romans. "Bathing" was a way of life. Everybody, even the slaves, had the right to partake of the Baths, with room for 1,600 bathers at the same time. Hot baths, tepid baths and an unheated swimming pool with a masseur standing by to rub your skin with essential oils. Also 2 "palestrae", or gyms, where ball games and wrestling took place; light snacks and drink vendors; two libraries, Greek and Latin, where one could study books written on scrolls (books as we know them were invented in the Renaissance), the "paper" being papyrus parchment or goat skin (pergamon). You could stroll in the gardens or sit under a tree and review the world (or discuss who gave the best party last night). All the arts were on parade: theater, sculpture, painting, music, and particularly mosaic (of which some examples are to be seen here today). Hours, under most Emperors, were compartmentalized: men in the mornings, women in the afternoons, and slaves between 4 and 6 pm. The place itself was so beautiful, one felt rejuvenated and refreshed with all that self-indulgence. When Mussolini started the performances of Grand Opera in these glorious ruins in the 1930s on warm summer nights, the Baths lived again. He would be driven by underground passage to a point right below his box, and would appear magically in his seat at the start of the show. For under these baths, as in many Roman ruins, there is a vast infrastructure of "cryptoportici", or subterranean passages. In those caves enormous quantities of wood were stocked for the fires which burned day and night to heat the water coming in continually through the aqueducts. Sadly, in the last few years these musical evenings stopped. No longer can you see the famous super productions of "Aida", with elephants and dromedaries enlivening the stage. When the sopranos hit high C, archeologists shuddered as they felt the walls, like glass, were being shattered by the sound waves. But music is returning to the baths in the summer, so watch the newspapers for announcements.... https://web.tiscali.it/romaonlineguide/ Pages/eng/rantica/sAWy2.htm And see as well, e.g., ... http://www.oldandsold.com/articles13/travel-191.shtml http://www.annasromguide.dk/steder/vialedelletermedicaracalla.html A little help on that last one, please .... __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From monropolitan at yahoo.com Tue Aug 10 19:55:08 2004 From: monropolitan at yahoo.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 17:55:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: LPPM MMV "A John Buchan Hero" Message-ID: <20040811005508.32515.qmail@web50703.mail.yahoo.com> "... gaunt and looking a little like a John Buchan hero even at thirteen ..." (MMV, p. 1) "a John Buchan hero" Cf. ... "I was also able to steal, or let us say 'derive,' in more subtle ways. I had grown up reading a lot of spy fiction, novels of intrigue, notably those of John Buchan. The only book of his that anyone remmebers now is The Thirty-nine Steps, but he wrote half a dozen more just as good or better. They were all in my hometown library. So were E. Phillips Oppenheim, Helen MacInnes, Geoffrey Household, and many others as well. The net effect was to build up in my uncritical brain a peculiar shadowy vision of the history preceding the two world wars. Political decision-making and official documents did not figure in this nearly as much as lurking, spying, false identities, psychological games." (SL, "Intro," p. 18) http://waste.org/mail/?list=pynchon-l&month=0211&msg=72963 John Buchan (1875-1940) http://www.johnbuchansociety.co.uk/ http://www.geocities.com/RainForest/5084/Buchan.htm http://www.kirjasto.sci.fi/buchan.htm http://www.slainte.org.uk/scotauth/buchadsw.htm http://www.fantasticfiction.co.uk/authors/John_Buchan.htm For portrait, see ... http://www.todayinliterature.com/assets/photos/b/john-buchan-190x297.jpg And see as well ... http://waste.org/mail/?list=pynchon-l&month=0212&msg=73861 __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From monropolitan at yahoo.com Tue Aug 10 20:00:18 2004 From: monropolitan at yahoo.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 18:00:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: LPPM MMV "Symbolic Razor Slash" Message-ID: <20040811010018.21203.qmail@web50708.mail.yahoo.com> "... gazing fixedly at the symbolic razor slash halfway up his black necktie ..." (MMV, p. 1) Aagian, a little help here, please ... __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Address AutoComplete - You start. We finish. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From monropolitan at yahoo.com Tue Aug 10 20:05:08 2004 From: monropolitan at yahoo.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 18:05:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: LPPM MMV "Sitting Shivah" Message-ID: <20040811010508.22455.qmail@web50707.mail.yahoo.com> "... sitting shivah on an orange crate ..." SHIVAH The psychological brilliance of Judaism is nowhere more apparent than in its carefully ritualized structure for dealing with grief. The open expression of sorrow is permitted, even encouraged. Yet, beginning with the family�s arrival at their home after funeral, a process is set into motion that leads the bereaved gently but firmly back to life and the world of the living. The first stage in this gradual process of healing is called shivah. What is the meaning of shivah? Shivah is a Hebrew word meaning "seven" and refers to a seven-day period of formalized mourning by the immediate family of the deceased.. Shivah begins immediately after the burial and concludes a short time after the morning service (Shacharit) seven days later. Where is shivah observed? It is customary to observe shivah in the home of the deceased. Where this is not possible, shivah may be marked in the home of an immediate family member or even a friend. Most importantly, however, the family should be together during this time. For whom is shivah observed? Jewish law prescribes observance of shivah for one�s parents, sibling, child, or spouse. How does shivah begin? Before mourners and friends enter the home, Orthodoxy prescribes that they first wash their hands in a ritualistic manner, using a pitcher of water and a basin outside the front or back door. Why are the hands washed? This custom originated out of superstition and is generally explained in one of three ways. In ancient times, when an individual dies of mysterious causes, the inhabitants of that city often washed their hands at the cemetery, symbolically affirming that they had not shed innocent blood. In later times, washing the hands became a ritual designed to wash off evil demons that some believed might have attached themselves at the cemetery. A third rationale for the practice is to cleanse oneself from the ritual impurity that fostered the prohibitions against kohanim coming into contact with the dead in any way. Reform Jews generally do not wash their hands on returning from the cemetery, though some chose to observe this custom. What happens next? Upon entering the house, a member of the family generally lights a shivah candle, which is almost always provided by the funeral home and which burns for seven days. The shivah candle, also called the ner daluk, "burning light," serves as a mark of respect to the memory of the deceased. LOW STOOLS AND COVERING MIRRORS As friends enter the house of mourning, they often find that it looks quite different from its ordinary appearance. That is because Jewish law dictates specific alternations as part of shivah. There are two customs in particular that bear examination: Boxes or low stools in place of, or in addition to, chairs. The covering of all mirrors. What is the purpose of low stools? It is customary for members of the immediate family to sit on low stools or boxes during the shivah period. Indeed, it is probable that this practice resulted in the expression "sitting" shivah. Why are all mirrors covered? There is no halachic prescription for covering mirrors. We recall two superstitious fears: The soul of a person in the home might be "caught" in the mirror and snatched away by the ghost of the deceased. Due to the supposed presence of the angel of death, those seeing their reflections might place their own lives in jeopardy http://www.jewishfunerals.com/jewish_mourning.htm#3 http://www.jewishfunerals.com/jewish_mourning.htm#4 http://www.jewishfunerals.com/jewish_mourning.htm __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From monropolitan at yahoo.com Tue Aug 10 20:07:01 2004 From: monropolitan at yahoo.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 18:07:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: LPPM MMV "Zeit the Doctor" Message-ID: <20040811010701.22930.qmail@web50707.mail.yahoo.com> "... he still remembered Miriam's husband cursing Zeit the Doctor ..." (MMV, p. 1) Zeit the Doctor = time heals all wounds? __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From keithsz at sbcglobal.net Tue Aug 10 20:49:56 2004 From: keithsz at sbcglobal.net (Keith McMullen) Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 18:49:56 -0700 Subject: LPPM MMV "Symbolic Razor Slash" In-Reply-To: <20040811010018.21203.qmail@web50708.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20040811010018.21203.qmail@web50708.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Close as I could find. http://www.wildties.com/dyn/tieview.jsp?id=WT500500&source=search From lycidas2 at earthlink.net Tue Aug 10 21:09:10 2004 From: lycidas2 at earthlink.net (Terrance) Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 22:09:10 -0400 Subject: LPPM MMV "Symbolic Razor Slash" References: <20040811010018.21203.qmail@web50708.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <41197FC6.196C6E5B@earthlink.net> See Kriah. Keith McMullen wrote: > > Close as I could find. > > http://www.wildties.com/dyn/tieview.jsp?id=WT500500&source=search From lycidas2 at earthlink.net Tue Aug 10 21:20:36 2004 From: lycidas2 at earthlink.net (Terrance) Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 22:20:36 -0400 Subject: LPPM MMV "Sitting Shivah" References: <20040811010508.22455.qmail@web50707.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <41198274.862D4FB6@earthlink.net> Dave Monroe wrote: > > "... sitting shivah on an orange crate ..." who coughed on the sixth floor of Harlem crowned with flame under the tubercular sky surrounded by orange crates of theology, Naomi Ginsberg's window 1953 overlooked Woodlawn Cemetery in the Bronx; see "Kaddish." Poe wrote "Annabel Lee," "The Bells,' "Ulalume" and "Eureka" 1846-48 in his Fordham cottage, now moved to Grand Concourse, Bronx. Russell Durgin (d. August 28, 1985), Columbia 57 theology student in whose sublet apartment, 321 East 121st Street, East Harlem, 198, author read William Blake, left Manhattan that summer for medical treatment, tubercular lungs. Treatnent may have involved filling chest space with celluloid balls to prevent collapse. "Orange crates of theology": Durgin's books were displayed in wooden orange crates, then commonly used as bookcases. See annotation 19 [24] http://www.fb10.uni-bremen.de/anglistik/kerkhoff/beatgeneration/index.htm From pynchonoid at yahoo.com Tue Aug 10 22:00:59 2004 From: pynchonoid at yahoo.com (pynchonoid) Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 20:00:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: LPPM MMV "Siegel" In-Reply-To: <411968F7.7EE85B82@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <20040811030059.14928.qmail@web40713.mail.yahoo.com> Yeah, I guess it's just a coincidence that Pynchon gives this character his college roomate's name. > > Seems to me that Jules has little to do with the > story or the characters > in it. ===== http://pynchonoid.org "everything connects" http://neoconservadroid.org "android warriors of the right" __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From keithsz at sbcglobal.net Tue Aug 10 22:51:24 2004 From: keithsz at sbcglobal.net (Keith McMullen) Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 20:51:24 -0700 Subject: LPPM MMV "Symbolic Razor Slash" In-Reply-To: <41197FC6.196C6E5B@earthlink.net> References: <20040811010018.21203.qmail@web50708.mail.yahoo.com> <41197FC6.196C6E5B@earthlink.net> Message-ID: >>>See Kriah.<<< http://www.congregationbnaiisrael.org/images/kriah.jpg From lycidas2 at earthlink.net Tue Aug 10 22:50:01 2004 From: lycidas2 at earthlink.net (Terrance) Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 23:50:01 -0400 Subject: LPPM MMV "Siegel" References: <20040811030059.14928.qmail@web40713.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <41199769.A0D557F6@earthlink.net> pynchonoid wrote: > > Yeah, I guess it's just a coincidence that Pynchon > gives this character his college roomate's name. Explain your reading of it. It would be an exception. He doesn't name his characters after his friends. Siegel is the precursor of Benny Profane, he is a Jewish-Catholic. Only P inverts the parents, Benny's Mother is Jewish (Benny) and his Father (Profane) is Catholic and Italian. In the case of Siegel, the Law and the Priest, Father confessor, idol worship, .... so on. Siegel: a member of the tribe of Levi but not descended from Aaron, chosen to assist the Temple priests. http://www.christiananswers.net/dictionary/levite.html A member of an ancient caste of hereditary Jewish priests. Membership in the Levites is determined by paternal descent. The Levites have traditionally been considered the descendants of Levi, a son of Jacob. http://segal.org/name/ From keithsz at sbcglobal.net Tue Aug 10 23:22:13 2004 From: keithsz at sbcglobal.net (Keith McMullen) Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 21:22:13 -0700 Subject: LPPM MMV "Siegel" In-Reply-To: <41199769.A0D557F6@earthlink.net> References: <20040811030059.14928.qmail@web40713.mail.yahoo.com> <41199769.A0D557F6@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <05758BA3-EB4E-11D8-9628-000A95BDCA92@sbcglobal.net> >>>Siegel: a member of the tribe of Levi but not descended from Aaron, chosen to assist the Temple priests. http://segal.org/name/ ==> The correlation between "Segal" and Levite has been blurred a bit over the centuries.  In English-speaking countries, Segal has been blurred with "Siegel" in the past century.  In English, Segal is pronounced as "Seegl", sounding the same as the *unrelated* name Siegel, used by non-Levites.  From lycidas2 at earthlink.net Wed Aug 11 05:42:16 2004 From: lycidas2 at earthlink.net (Terrance) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2004 06:42:16 -0400 Subject: LPPM MMV "Symbolic Razor Slash" References: <20040811010018.21203.qmail@web50708.mail.yahoo.com> <41197FC6.196C6E5B@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <4119F808.F3D61B72@earthlink.net> Kriah: Tearing of the Garment The practice of kriah dates back to the bible when Jacob rent his garment upon learning of the supposed death of Joseph. Thus, one made a rend or tear in a garment immediately upon hearing of the death of a loved one as a way of indicating we are incomplete. Many Jews attach a black ribbon to their garment immediately before the funeral service which is torn instead of tearing an actual garment. Kriah is usually observed by the immediate shiva relatives (parents, children, spouses and siblings). The kriah ribbon or torn garment is worn throughout the entire period of shiva. When mourning the death of a parent, kriah may be extended to 30 days. http://www.interfaithfamily.com/article/issue43/lieberman.phtml Keith McMullen wrote: > > >>>See Kriah.<<< > http://www.congregationbnaiisrael.org/images/kriah.jpg From lycidas2 at earthlink.net Wed Aug 11 05:46:57 2004 From: lycidas2 at earthlink.net (Terrance) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2004 06:46:57 -0400 Subject: LPPM MMV "Zeit the Doctor" References: <20040811010701.22930.qmail@web50707.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4119F921.B56CD30@earthlink.net> Dave Monroe wrote: > > "... he still remembered Miriam's husband cursing Zeit > the Doctor ..." (MMV, p. 1) > > Zeit the Doctor = time heals all wounds? See VL page 208 From pynchonoid at yahoo.com Wed Aug 11 09:47:34 2004 From: pynchonoid at yahoo.com (pynchonoid) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2004 07:47:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: LPPM MMV "Siegel" In-Reply-To: <41199769.A0D557F6@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <20040811144734.40637.qmail@web40707.mail.yahoo.com> --- Terrance wrote: > It would be an exception. > He doesn't name his characters after his friends. 2 problems: 1. Pynchon has in fact given this character the same name as his college roomate. 2. You can't possibly know that "He doesn't name his characters after his friends." For starters, you don't know the names of all of Pynchon's friends or how that list might or might not coincide with the names of all the characters he's named in his fiction. I find it unlikely that P was unaware he was giving this character the same name as his college roomate. ===== http://pynchonoid.org "everything connects" http://neoconservadroid.org "android warriors of the right" __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From paul.mackin at verizon.net Wed Aug 11 10:25:30 2004 From: paul.mackin at verizon.net (Paul Mackin) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2004 11:25:30 -0400 Subject: LPPM MMV "Siegel" In-Reply-To: <20040811144734.40637.qmail@web40707.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20040811144734.40637.qmail@web40707.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1092237930.10160.15.camel@localhost> On Wed, 2004-08-11 at 10:47, pynchonoid wrote: > --- Terrance wrote: > > It would be an exception. > > He doesn't name his characters after his friends. > > 2 problems: > 1. Pynchon has in fact given this character the same > name as his college roomate. > 2. You can't possibly know that "He doesn't name his > characters after his friends." For starters, you don't > know the names of all of Pynchon's friends or how that > list might or might not coincide with the names of all > the characters he's named in his fiction. > > I find it unlikely that P was unaware he was giving > this character the same name as his college roomate. Reminds me of the Glen Cove business. Glen Cove is in fact Pynchon's hometown. We can't possibly know that Kubrick doesn't use the hometowns of authors he's read as locales for his movies. We don't know the names of all the novels k's read and whether towns in those books corresponded to towns in K's movies. P-list minds sometimes run in similar circles. I know mine is no exception. From ghetta_outta at hotmail.com Wed Aug 11 11:00:32 2004 From: ghetta_outta at hotmail.com (Ghetta Life) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2004 16:00:32 +0000 Subject: LPPM MMV "Siegel" Message-ID: >From: pynchonoid > >I find it unlikely that P was unaware he was giving this character the same >name as his college roomate. Does he call this character "Jules?" If not then you are stating a half-truth (and one with no point behind it). I don't think there's any mention of this character's first name except that HIS roomate starts calling him "Stephen" for his Jesuit nature, an OBVIOUS reference to Joyce's Ulysses. The point is clearly what Terrance has already stated: Seigel is half and half Jewish-Catholic, just like Profane later to come. In fact, this whole story is a (very lame) precusor of "V." Ghetta _________________________________________________________________ Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From pynchonoid at yahoo.com Wed Aug 11 11:11:31 2004 From: pynchonoid at yahoo.com (pynchonoid) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2004 09:11:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: LPPM MMV "Siegel" In-Reply-To: <1092237930.10160.15.camel@localhost> Message-ID: <20040811161131.63458.qmail@web40710.mail.yahoo.com> Kubrick has a character named Siegel? --- Paul Mackin wrote: > We can't possibly know that Kubrick doesn't use [...] ===== http://pynchonoid.org "everything connects" http://neoconservadroid.org "android warriors of the right" __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Address AutoComplete - You start. We finish. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From monropolitan at yahoo.com Wed Aug 11 11:36:37 2004 From: monropolitan at yahoo.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2004 09:36:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: LPPM MMV "Rachel" Message-ID: <20040811163637.16586.qmail@web50710.mail.yahoo.com> "He would stand, therefore, out in some street, not moving, thinking about Rachel who was 4'10" in her stocking feet, whose neck was pale and sleek, a Modigliani neck, whose eyes were not mirror images but both slanted the same way, dark brown almost to fathomless ...." (MMV, p. 1) Rachel Rachel ("a ewe"), daughter of Laban and younger sister of Lia. The journey of Jacob to the "east country" (Mesopotamia) in quest of a bride of his own kin, and his providential meeting with Rachel at the well in the open country followed by his introduction into the household of Laban are told with idyllic charm in the twenty-ninth chapter of Genesis. Jacob, being in love with Rachel, agreed to serve her father for her seven years. Laban accepted the proposal, and the seven years seemed to Jacob "but a few days, because of the greatness of his love". He was deceived, however, by Laban, who at the end of the term of service gave him to wife, not Rachel, who "was well favoured, and of a beautiful countenance", but her elder sister Lia, who was "blear-eyed", and Jacob received the younger daughter to wife only on condition of serving seven years more. Rachel, being for a time without offspring and envious of her sister, to whom four children were born, gave to Jacob as a secondary wife her handmaid Bala, whose issue, according to a custom of the times, would be reckoned as her own. From this union were born Dan and Nephtali. In the quarrel which arose between Jacob and Laban, Rachel as well as Lia sided with the former, and when departing from her father's home she carried away with her the teraphim or household gods, believing in their protecting influence over herself and her husband (Gen., xxxi, 19). Among the sons of Rachel after the "Lord remembered" her were Joseph and Benjamin, in giving birth to the latter of whom Rachel died. At the point of death "she called the name of her son Benomi, that is, The son of my pain: but his father called him Benjamin, that is, the Son of the right hand". Rachel was buried "in the highway that leadeth to Ephrata, this is Bethlehem. And Jacob erected a pillar over her sepulchre: this is the pillar of Rachel's monument, to this day" (Gen., xxxv, 18-20). The exact location of the grave of Rachel is a disputed point.... http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12630a.htm "a Modigliani neck" Modigliani was a young man of fey beauty, and his work has a wonderful slow elegance that is unusual, but compelling. Through the influence of the Rumanian sculptor Constantin Brancusi, he fell under the spell of primitive sculpture, especially from Africa. He went on to develop a sophisticated, mannered style built upon graceful, decorative arabesques and simplified forms. It is hard for us to imagine why it did not attract patrons. He is famous now for his elegant, elongated nudes, but it is portraits that are the most extraordinary. http://www.ibiblio.org/wm/paint/auth/modigliani/ And see as well, esp. ... http://www.artchive.com/artchive/M/modigliani.html "both slanted the same way" E.g., ... http://mondodomani.org/filosofiatorvergata/modigliani.jpg And cf., elsewhere, of Rachel Owlglass ... "She had her head down, studying the application in her hand. She looked up, he saw the eyes, both slanted the same way." (V., p. 216/228) "... he could see nothing but a new extemporized daydream in which no other face but this sad one with its brimming slash-slash of eyes tightened slowly in his own shadow, pale under him." (V., p. 217/229) __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From lycidas2 at earthlink.net Wed Aug 11 12:37:30 2004 From: lycidas2 at earthlink.net (Terrance) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2004 13:37:30 -0400 Subject: LPPM MMV "Siegel" References: <20040811144734.40637.qmail@web40707.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <411A595A.46C8D417@earthlink.net> Doug, Why do you think Pynchon named the protagonist of MMV after Jules Siegel? Can you provide any textual support (from MMV or any other Pynchon work) for your claim? From pynchonoid at yahoo.com Wed Aug 11 13:14:01 2004 From: pynchonoid at yahoo.com (pynchonoid) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2004 11:14:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: LPPM MMV "Siegel" In-Reply-To: <411A595A.46C8D417@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <20040811181401.8645.qmail@web40709.mail.yahoo.com> T: > Why do you think Pynchon named the protagonist of > MMV after Jules > Siegel? I don't really know. I do know that Pynchon gave the protagonist of MMV the same name. It's also true that Pynchon and Siegel remain in contact for some time after the writing of this story, if JS is to be believed -- he claims he visited Pynchon in Lower California in the mid-60s while Pynchon was writing Gravity's Rainbow. No way to know for certain if Pynchon's relationship with JS has anything to do with the way P characterizes Siegel in MMV, of course. But it's interesting that he chooses his friend's name for the character; he could have chosen any name he wanted, after all, so why choose to put his friend in his story (if, indeed, that is what Pynchon has done)? How do you know that Pynchon has never named a character after one of his friends? Can you provide textual support, from a Pynchon work, to support this assertion? What makes you think Pynchon has chosen this route, given that it's been alleged for a long time that Pynchon has in fact put people he knows into his fiction, and the fact that this practice is common among writers of fiction? ===== http://pynchonoid.org "everything connects" http://neoconservadroid.org "android warriors of the right" __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - You care about security. So do we. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From monropolitan at yahoo.com Wed Aug 11 13:17:22 2004 From: monropolitan at yahoo.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2004 11:17:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: LPPM MMV "Symbolic Razor Slash" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040811181722.49912.qmail@web50706.mail.yahoo.com> I figured it was related to shivah, but was running out of time at the library. Thanks! Okay ... --- Keith McMullen wrote: > >>>See Kriah.<<< > http://www.congregationbnaiisrael.org/images/kriah.jpg __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From lycidas2 at earthlink.net Wed Aug 11 13:18:15 2004 From: lycidas2 at earthlink.net (Terrance) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2004 14:18:15 -0400 Subject: LPPM MMV "Siegel" References: Message-ID: <411A62E7.6D34A57B@earthlink.net> > > Does he call this character "Jules?" If not then you are stating a > half-truth (and one with no point behind it). I don't think there's any > mention of this character's first name except that HIS roomate starts > calling him "Stephen" for his Jesuit nature, an OBVIOUS reference to Joyce's > Ulysses. The point is clearly what Terrance has already stated: Seigel is > half and half Jewish-Catholic, just like Profane later to come. In fact, > this whole story is a (very lame) precusor of "V." His first name is Cleanth, a Stoic's name. Not sure what that tells us. Could be P took the name from one of his english books (Cleanth Brooks, famous New Critic) and married it to Siegel, the boy across the hall in 1954. What do I know, Tex From lycidas2 at earthlink.net Wed Aug 11 13:22:44 2004 From: lycidas2 at earthlink.net (Terrance) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2004 14:22:44 -0400 Subject: LPPM MMV "Siegel" References: <20040811181401.8645.qmail@web40709.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <411A63F4.6F5B460B@earthlink.net> pynchonoid wrote: > > T: > > Why do you think Pynchon named the protagonist of > > MMV after Jules > > Siegel? > > I don't really know. I do know that Pynchon gave the > protagonist of > MMV the same name. > > It's also true that Pynchon and Siegel remain in > contact for some time after the writing of this story, > if JS is to be believed -- he claims he visited > Pynchon in Lower California in the mid-60s while > Pynchon was writing Gravity's Rainbow. No way to know > for certain if Pynchon's relationship with JS has > anything to do with the way P characterizes Siegel in > MMV, of course. But it's interesting that he chooses > his friend's name for the character; he could have > chosen any name he wanted, after all, so why choose to > put his friend in his story (if, indeed, that is what > Pynchon has done)? Jules gave his opinion on the matter. It's in the archives. Anyway, the name fits the story if not the man. > > How do you know that Pynchon has never named a > character after one of his friends? Can you provide > textual support, from a Pynchon work, to support this > assertion? Maybe he does. I don't know. My Bad. What makes you think Pynchon has chosen > this route, given that it's been alleged for a long > time that Pynchon has in fact put people he knows into > his fiction, and the fact that this practice is common > among writers of fiction? Don't know. If you can provide an example other than Jules it might be worth talking about. From lycidas2 at earthlink.net Wed Aug 11 13:26:24 2004 From: lycidas2 at earthlink.net (Terrance) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2004 14:26:24 -0400 Subject: LPPM MMV "Symbolic Razor Slash" References: <20040811181722.49912.qmail@web50706.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <411A64D0.2C58508B@earthlink.net> For you? Anytime. No probs. No big E. Just say the word. What are friends 4? Dave Monroe wrote: > > I figured it was related to shivah, but was running > out of time at the library. Thanks! Okay ... > > --- Keith McMullen wrote: > > > >>>See Kriah.<<< > > http://www.congregationbnaiisrael.org/images/kriah.jpg > > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage! > http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From monropolitan at yahoo.com Wed Aug 11 13:34:11 2004 From: monropolitan at yahoo.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2004 11:34:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: LPPM MMV "Zeit the Doctor" In-Reply-To: <4119F921.B56CD30@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <20040811183411.54570.qmail@web50710.mail.yahoo.com> "... and boys, seized as well by this geist that could've been polter along with zeit, had actually cut off pieces of hair from their heads and, too impatient to grow beards, glued it onto their faces." (VL, p. 208) --- Terrance wrote: > > Dave Monroe wrote: > > > > "... he still remembered Miriam's husband cursing > > Zeit the Doctor ..." (MMV, p. 1) > > > > Zeit the Doctor = time heals all wounds? > > See VL page 208 __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From lycidas2 at earthlink.net Wed Aug 11 13:30:44 2004 From: lycidas2 at earthlink.net (Terrance) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2004 14:30:44 -0400 Subject: LPPM MMV "Siegel" References: Message-ID: <411A65D4.8BE13DAC@earthlink.net> > In fact, > this whole story is a (very lame) precusor of "V." > > Ghetta show enough ain no GRAVITEEEEZ RAINBOW He do got that religious thang goin on though. From lycidas2 at earthlink.net Wed Aug 11 13:40:02 2004 From: lycidas2 at earthlink.net (Terrance) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2004 14:40:02 -0400 Subject: LPPM MMV "Zeit the Doctor" References: <20040811183411.54570.qmail@web50710.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <411A6802.EA880081@earthlink.net> Too cute? Why does P do this? Maybe he had a college roomy named Zeit. Dave Monroe wrote: > > "... and boys, seized as well by this geist that > could've been polter along with zeit, had actually cut > off pieces of hair from their heads and, too impatient > to grow beards, glued it onto their faces." (VL, p. > 208) > > --- Terrance wrote: > > > > Dave Monroe wrote: > > > > > > "... he still remembered Miriam's husband cursing > > > Zeit the Doctor ..." (MMV, p. 1) > > > > > > Zeit the Doctor = time heals all wounds? > > > > See VL page 208 > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com From isread at btopenworld.com Wed Aug 11 14:10:56 2004 From: isread at btopenworld.com (Paul Nightingale) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2004 20:10:56 +0100 Subject: LPPM MMV "Siegel" Message-ID: <000201c47fd6$f19acf00$0201a8c0@Foucault> If indeed Pynchon once roomed with someone named Siegel it's a fact, indisputably so, that the character in MMIV has the same name. What does it mean? Well, later on in the story Siegel is himself given a roommate. Grossmann = Pynchon? Who can tell? However, it might be worthwhile pondering the narrative function of this naming strategy. From lycidas2 at earthlink.net Wed Aug 11 14:35:11 2004 From: lycidas2 at earthlink.net (Terrance) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2004 15:35:11 -0400 Subject: LPPM MMV "Siegel" References: <000201c47fd6$f19acf00$0201a8c0@Foucault> Message-ID: <411A74EF.ACB490AE@earthlink.net> Paul Nightingale wrote: > > If indeed Pynchon once roomed with someone named Siegel it's a fact, > indisputably so, that the character in MMIV has the same name. What does > it mean? Well, later on in the story Siegel is himself given a roommate. > Grossmann = Pynchon? Who can tell? However, it might be worthwhile > pondering the narrative function of this naming strategy. Seigel is a Jewish name. It is the name of the Levite. Our protagonist's father is Jewish. Cleanth is a Greek name. An odd name for a Jewish boy. Sort of like Dedelus. Remember, in PA Stephen goes to college and is teased by the other boyz and by his instructors. What kinda name is that? What is your father? Is he a lawyer? Greek? But Cleanth's Mother was a Catholic. At the ripe old age of 19 she quit the Roman church after drinking bootleg beer in her railroad apartment in Hell's Kitchen where she struggled with her soul and refuted Aquinas. So, Siegel's Mother names him Cleanth after Cleanthes the Greek Stoic and the boy has to live with it. The Pynchon irony here is intertextual. The boyz at school tease Cleanth calling him Stephen (Dedalus). A house divided. Cleanth Siegel has a Jewish father and a Catholic mother (she probably a stoic). Benny Profane's Mother is Jewish and his father is Catholic (Italian). But I'm not interested in this intertextual stuff. We've been here and done this all twice. Jeeez, and Jules again? Goodness me, boyz, can't we try to read a story and talk about it as a story we've read? Guess not and so it goes. T From cwleise at buffalo.edu Wed Aug 11 14:40:38 2004 From: cwleise at buffalo.edu (cwleise at buffalo.edu) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2004 15:40:38 -0400 Subject: LPPM MMV "Zeit the Doctor" Message-ID: <1092253238.411a7637017cb@mail3.buffalo.edu> "Dave Monroe wrote: "... he still remembered Miriam's husband cursing Zeit the Doctor ..." (MMV, p. 1) Zeit the Doctor = time heals all wounds? See VL page 208" Cute, yes, but I suspect quite the opposite: Zeit's inability to successfully intervene with the progress of Miriam's cancer is just the first clue that the story suggests time has a far lesser ability to effectuate the process of healing than the above platitude would have us believe. However, I think there is something interesting going on with the conflation of time with 'doctoring' that is not necessarily 'healing': the narrator states earlier on that Siegel has spent time "wondering why, in his first days with the Commission, he should have ever regarded himself as any kind of healer when he had always known that for a healer -- a prophet actually, because if you cared about it at all you had to be both -- there is no question of balance sheets or legal complexity, and the minute you become involved with anything like that you are something less; a doctor, or a fortune-teller." After you pointed that out, I noticed that time/times/Zeit makes nineteen appearances in the text, often in close proximity to one another. In addition, the sense in which it is used changes frequently -- notably, when referring to the Siegel, it generally refers to individual circumstances: "There had been times -- during the past year, in the Avenue Kleber or the Viale delle Terme di Caracalla -- where there had been a brief case where the fifth was now, clutched under the same tweed-clad arm against rain or a deadline or some bureaucratic necessity. And most of these times...", whereas when referring to the Ojibway, 'times' delineates collective/social/cultural designations: "such paranoid tendencies are further intensified bv the highly competitive life of the summer villages at ricing and berry-picking time..." Further, in the action of the story, Siegel is somewhat lost to time: he's unsure when to show up, exactly; his early arrival creates the circumstances that allow him to gather enough information to avoid the carnage; when he realizes what time is (eleven o'clock) he abandons his role of father/confessor and walks outside, a form of "deliverance" that Lupescu told Siegel would come, that it was "just a matter of time" (though I think Lupescu is somewhat wrong: he's more telling fortune than being prophetic)... Finally, in a great big stretch of critical license, I noted that time is actually at the center of the word sentiment, quite literally: another word of great import to the tale. Sorry about the length, but I get bored at work. Anyhow, I was interested in what you all thought about this: I have a crackpot theory of my own, sort of, but would love some input. Cheers, Chris From pynchonoid at yahoo.com Wed Aug 11 15:40:31 2004 From: pynchonoid at yahoo.com (pynchonoid) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2004 13:40:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: LPPM MMV "Siegel" In-Reply-To: <411A74EF.ACB490AE@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <20040811204031.38952.qmail@web40708.mail.yahoo.com> --- Terrance wrote: > > But I'm not interested in this intertextual stuff. > We've been here and > done this all twice. Jeeez, and Jules again? > Goodness me, boyz, can't we > try to read a story and talk about it as a story > we've read? > > Guess not and so it goes. Not sure what your beef is about "this intertextual stuff" of which you have added quite a bit this thread already. Reminds me of the joke about the two old ladies, eating lunch. "The food here is terrible." "And the portions are so small." When have we discussed MMV once, much less "twice"? If you want "to read a story and talk about it as a story we've read", why don't you go ahead and do that? You could model that behavior for the rest of us, and we could decide if it seems a fruitful way to proceed. Then again, if, as you've said, this story isn't worth discussing, why are you involved in the discussion if all you're going to do is throw rocks at the folks who are discussing it? P.S. I'm interviewing John Dykstra (film special f/x meister) tomorrow at Sony Imageworks, in case anybody has any questions they'd like answered about Spiderman 2, Star Wars, Batman movies, and the rest of the films Dykstra has worked on. Dykstra's also a co-founder of Industrial Light & Magic. ===== http://pynchonoid.org "everything connects" http://neoconservadroid.org "android warriors of the right" _______________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Express yourself with Y! Messenger! Free. Download now. http://messenger.yahoo.com From Gentle_Family at btinternet.com Wed Aug 11 15:57:48 2004 From: Gentle_Family at btinternet.com (David Gentle) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2004 21:57:48 +0100 Subject: LPPM MMV "Siegel" References: <20040811204031.38952.qmail@web40708.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <009401c47fe5$ddc79760$476d8751@tinypc> > P.S. I'm interviewing John Dykstra (film special f/x > meister) tomorrow at Sony Imageworks, in case anybody > has any questions they'd like answered about Spiderman > 2, Star Wars, Batman movies, and the rest of the films > Dykstra has worked on. Dykstra's also a co-founder of > Industrial Light & Magic. Could you ask him how much Open Source software they use? thanks, David Gentle From ghetta_outta at hotmail.com Wed Aug 11 16:22:05 2004 From: ghetta_outta at hotmail.com (Ghetta Life) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2004 21:22:05 +0000 Subject: LPPM MMV "Siegel" Message-ID: >--- Terrance wrote: > > But I'm not interested in this intertextual stuff. We've been here and >done this all twice. Jeeez, and Jules again? Goodness me, boyz, can't we >try to read a story and talk about it as a story we've read? But there's not a lot to this story. There's a reason it was left out of Slow Learner. But, OK, let's try: A bunch of intellectuals (Whole Sick Crew) gather to have their "fun" at a house party. One of their "playthings" is a wildman, temporarily, but only on the surface, tamed and there to perform as their object merely by his presence. But little do they know what darkness lies below that surface. Siegel at the last moment understands what's about to happen, but leaves the Whole Sick Crew to their deserved fate (some Father). "Nature" prevails, Decadence can't survive. The End _________________________________________________________________ Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From monropolitan at yahoo.com Wed Aug 11 18:18:42 2004 From: monropolitan at yahoo.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2004 16:18:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: LPPM MMV "The Awareness of Being a Cog" Message-ID: <20040811231842.28390.qmail@web50704.mail.yahoo.com> "... and after a while he would drift up to the surface again and be annoyed with himself for worrying about these things when the data inside the briefcase should have been at the office fifteen minutes ago; and realize, reluctantly, that the racing against time, the awareness of being a cog, the elan--almost roguery of the playboy element in the Commission which went well with his British staff officer appearance--even the intradepartmental scheming and counterscheming which went on in jazz cellars at two in the morning, in pensions over brandy and soda, were, after all, exciting." (MMV, p. 1) "drift up to the surface" Cf. ... We have lingered in the chambers of the sea By sea-girls wreathed with seaweed red and brown Till human voices wake us, and we drown. http://www.bartleby.com/198/1.html http://www.cs.amherst.edu/~ccm/prufrock.html http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acropolis/5616/prufrock.html http://www.english.uiuc.edu/maps/poets/a_f/eliot/prufrock.htm "the awareness of being a cog" "'Shit, I can square that. But I'm only a cog. Don't go thinking I know everything. All I know is my trade.'" (GR, Pt. IV, p. 711) And, of course, mechanism, determinism, et al. ... __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail is new and improved - Check it out! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From monropolitan at yahoo.com Wed Aug 11 18:32:21 2004 From: monropolitan at yahoo.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2004 16:32:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: LPPM MMV "These Funky Periods" Message-ID: <20040811233221.23538.qmail@web50705.mail.yahoo.com> "It was only when he forgot to take vitamin B pills the night before to ward off a hangover that these funky periods would come at all. Most of the time the brighteyed and bushy tailed Siegel would assert himself and then he would look on the funky days as only brief aberrations. Because when you came down to it it was fun to manoeuvre...." (MMV, p. 1) "vitamin B pills" Contrary to popular myths of coffee, vitamin B, and physical activity, time is the only way to cure a hangover. With coffee, what have you got? A wide awake drunk. Some find that vitamin B makes them feel better, but currently there is no research to back this up.... http://www.goaskalice.columbia.edu/0036.html And see as well, e.g., ... http://www.rupissed.com/hangovercures.html http://urbanlegends.about.com/library/blnote13a.htm "these funky periods" Main Entry: funky Pronunciation: 'f&[ng]-kE Function: adjective : being in a funk : PANICKY Main Entry: funk Function: noun Etymology: probably from obsolete Flemish fonck 1 a : a state of paralyzing fear b : a depressed state of mind 2 : one that funks : COWARD http://m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary "brighteyed and bushy tailed" Meaning Cheerful and outgoing. Origin The bushy tail is a reference to animals like cats that fluff up their tails when excited. http://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/75900.html And see as well ... http://forum.leo.org/archiv/2002_08/30/20020830144736g_en.html __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From monropolitan at yahoo.com Wed Aug 11 18:58:21 2004 From: monropolitan at yahoo.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2004 16:58:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: LPPM MMV "A Mother Who ..." Message-ID: <20040811235821.29149.qmail@web50701.mail.yahoo.com> "... this was the part of him inherited from a mother who at the age of 19 had struggled with her soul one night in a railroad flat somewhere in Hell's Kitchen and, half-drunk on bootleg beer, had ended up refuting Aquinas and quitting the Roman church; who would grin fondly at her husband and refer to him as an innocent slob who never had a chance against her female cunning, and advise Seigel never to marrv a schickseh but to find himself some nice quiet Jewish girl because at least there you were given a running start." (MMV, p. 1) Hell's Kitchen Hell's Kitchen ... more than a neighborhood ...it's a state of mind. From the slaughterhouses and breweries of the 1800s, the draft riots of 1863, the Fighting 69th of World War I, the home of New York's most dangerous criminals from the early tenement days to Prohibition to the Westies, Hell's Kitchen rose from the blood and fire of the poor dreaming their riotous dreams and searing the urban landscape with a wild, demanding spirit.... http://www.midtownmedia.com/chronicle/HKhistory.htm The New York neighborhood bordered by 14th and 52nd Streets, and Eighth Avenue and the waterfront, has a rich history of crime and bloodshed.... During the latter half of the 19th century, Hell's Kitchen was a notorious haven for gangs who prowled "the tenements, grog shops, slaughter houses, railroad yards, and gas works" that employed it's huge immigrant population. Men with names like Dutch Heinrichs, Owney Madden, and Bully Morrison ruled the streets. Cops walked in pairs, if at all. The term "Hell's Kitchen" first appeared in print on September 22, 1881 in a New York Times piece covering a grisly multiple murder in the neighborhood. The writer refers to a tough tenement as "Hell's Kitchen," and calls the surrounding block "probably the lowest and filthiest in the city." Today's Hell's Kitchen, also known as Clinton, is a vibrant neighborhood currently battling encroaching gentrification.... http://ask.yahoo.com/ask/20000629.html And see as well ... http://www.hellskitchennyc.com/ Aquinas St. Thomas Aquinas Philosopher, theologian, doctor of the Church (Angelicus Doctor), patron of Catholic universities, colleges, and schools. Born at Rocca Secca in the Kingdom of Naples, 1225 or 1227; died at Fossa Nuova, 7 March, 1274. http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14663b.htm Thomas Aquinas (1225-1274) lived at a critical juncture of western culture when the arrival of the Aristotelian corpus in Latin translation reopened the question of the relation between faith and reason, calling into question the modus vivendi that had obtained for centuries. This crisis flared up just as universities were being founded.... countered both the Averroistic interpretations of Aristotle and the Franciscan tendency to reject Greek philosophy. The result was a new modus vivendi between faith and philosophy which survived until the rise of the new physics. Thomas's theological writings became regulative of the Catholic Church and his close textual commentaries on Aristotle represent a cultural resource which is now receiving increased recognition. The following account concentrates on Thomas the philosopher and presents him as fundamentally an Aristotelian. http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/aquinas/ And see as well ... http://www.iep.utm.edu/a/aquinas.htm Summa Theologica http://www.newadvent.org/summa/ "shickseh" Shikseh - Non-Jewish girl http://www.uta.fi/FAST/US1/REF/yidgloss.html http://www.templesanjose.org/JudaismInfo/writing/yiddishphrases.pdf Shikseh (SHIK-seh) n. Non-Jewish girl or woman; hence, seductress http://hebrew4christians.com/Glossary/Yiddish_Words/yiddish_words.html#Sh http://hebrew4christians.com/Glossary/Yiddish_Words/yiddish_words.html __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From ottosell at yahoo.de Wed Aug 11 19:15:26 2004 From: ottosell at yahoo.de (Otto) Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 02:15:26 +0200 Subject: LPPM MMV "Siegel" References: <000201c47fd6$f19acf00$0201a8c0@Foucault> <411A74EF.ACB490AE@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <008d01c48001$7961ed40$0101a8c0@i7t2q2> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Terrance" Cc: Sent: Wednesday, August 11, 2004 9:35 PM Subject: Re: LPPM MMV "Siegel" > > Jeeez, and Jules again? Goodness me, boyz, can't we > try to read a story and talk about it as a story we've read? > *If * he had thought of JS the story isn't exactly a compliment. Otto From ottosell at yahoo.de Wed Aug 11 19:17:22 2004 From: ottosell at yahoo.de (Otto) Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 02:17:22 +0200 Subject: LPPM MMV "Siegel" References: <000201c47fd6$f19acf00$0201a8c0@Foucault> <411A74EF.ACB490AE@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <009301c48001$be7e7e20$0101a8c0@i7t2q2> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Terrance" Cc: Sent: Wednesday, August 11, 2004 9:35 PM Subject: Re: LPPM MMV "Siegel" > > > But I'm not interested in this intertextual stuff. -- Come up, Kinch. Come up, you fearful jesuit. This fearful jesuit "who had set it all in motion" walks downstairs. Otto From monropolitan at yahoo.com Wed Aug 11 19:36:49 2004 From: monropolitan at yahoo.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2004 17:36:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: LPPM MMV "His Roommate at College" Message-ID: <20040812003649.34592.qmail@web50708.mail.yahoo.com> "For this his roommate at college sophomore year had called him Stephen and taunted him mercilessly about the still small Jesuit voice which kept him from being either kicked around or conscious of guilt or simply ineffective like so many of the other Jewish boys on campus seemed to Grossmann to be. 'Also, Grossmann,' Siegel had retorted, 'it perhaps saves me from being a schmuck like you.' Grossmann would laugh and stick his nose back in a textbook. 'It is the seed of your destruction,' he would murmur. 'House divided against itself? You know.'" (MMV, p. 1) Stephen St. Stephen One of the first deacons and the first Christian martyr; feast on 26 December. In the Acts of the Apostles the name of St. Stephen occurs for the first time on the occasion of the appointment of the first deacons (Acts, vi, 5). Dissatisfaction concerning the distribution of alms from the community's fund having arisen in the Church, seven men were selected and specially ordained by the Apostles to take care of the temporal relief of the poorer members. Of these seven, Stephen, is the first mentioned and the best known. http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14286b.htm Stephen Dedalus is the main character in James Joyce's A Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man. He is also a character in Joyce's Ulysses. His surname is a reference to the mythological figure, Daedalus, who constructed the labyrinth. http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.com/Stephen%20Dedalus Thanks again, Terrance ... Grossmann "Grossmann" � large man? Big Man on Campus? http://waste.org/mail/?list=pynchon-l&month=0303&msg=77296 Grossmann = Pynchon? http://waste.org/mail/?list=pynchon-l&month=0408&msg=92402 Thanks again, John and Paul ... schmuck PRONUNCIATION: shmuk VARIANT FORMS: also shmuck NOUN: Slang A clumsy or stupid person; an oaf. ETYMOLOGY: Yiddish shmok, penis, fool, probably from Polish smok, serpent, tail. http://www.bartleby.com/61/84/S0138400.html Shmuck: another of the many Yiddish words for "penis." Although it has the same basic meaning as "putz," a shmuck generally refers to someone with greater power or social or emotional status. http://www.bubbygram.com/yiddishglossary.htm And see as well, e.g., ... http://www.wordiq.com/definition/Yiddish_language I would note that this WASN'T glossed at ... http://hebrew4christians.com/Glossary/Yiddish_Words/yiddish_words.html "House didvided" "'A house divided against itself cannot stand.'" http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/aia/part4/4h2934t.html Cf. ... "Every kingdom divided against itself will be laid waste, and no town or house divided against itself will stand. And if Satan drives out Satan, he is divided against himself; how, then, will his kingdom stand?" (Matthew 12:25-26) http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/matthew/matthew12.htm "If a kingdom is divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand. And if a house is divided against itself, that house will not be able to stand. And if Satan has risen up against himself and is divided, he cannot stand; that is the end of him." (Mark 3:24-6) http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/mark/mark3.htm http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/ On June 16, 1858, at the Illinois Republican convention in Springfield, Abraham Lincoln kicked off his bid for the U.S. Senate with a speech that would come to be known as the "House Divided" speech. http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/aia/part4/4h2934.html Lincoln delivered this famous speech, noted for the phrase "a house divided against itself cannot stand," when accepting the Republican nomination for U.S. Senate from Illinois in June of 1858. In July of that year he challenged his Democrat opponent, Stephen Douglas to a series of debates over admitting Kansas into the union as a slave state, and, to a large extent, over the future of slavery and of the union itself. Lincoln, of course, represented the anti-slavery position. The skill with which Lincoln debated Douglas helped catapult him to the Republican Party's nomination for president in 1860, a race which he won. http://www.nationalcenter.org/HouseDivided.html And see as well ... http://www.wam.umd.edu/~gaines/00000142.001.html http://www.wam.umd.edu/~gaines/00000142.001.notes.html http://usinfo.state.gov/usa/infousa/facts/democrac/22.htm __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail is new and improved - Check it out! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From monropolitan at yahoo.com Wed Aug 11 19:49:39 2004 From: monropolitan at yahoo.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2004 17:49:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: LPPM MMV "David Lupescu" Message-ID: <20040812004939.39350.qmail@web50707.mail.yahoo.com> "They faced each other like slightly flawed mirror images--different patterns of tweed, scotch bottle and pig foetus but no discrepancy in height--with Siegel experiencing a mixed feeling of discomfort and awe, and the word Doppelganger had just floated into his mind when the other's eyebrows shot up into twin parabolas and he stuck out his free hand and said, 'You're early but come in. I'm David Lupescu.'" (MMV, p. 1) Doppelganger Main Entry: dop�pel�g�ng�er Variant(s): or dop�pel�gang�er /'d�-p&l-"ga[ng]-&r, -"ge[ng]-, "d�-p&l-'/ Function: noun Etymology: German Doppelg�nger, from doppel- double + -g�nger goer 1 : a ghostly counterpart of a living person 2 a : DOUBLE 2a b : ALTER EGO b c : a person who has the same name as another http://m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=doppelganger Meaning "double walker" a doppelganger is a shadow-self that accompanies every human. Only the owner of a doppelganger can see it, otherwise it is invisible to human eyes. Dogs and cats have been known to see doppelgangers. Providing sympathetic company, a doppelganger almost always stands behind a person, and they cast no reflection in a mirror. They are prepared to listen and give advice to humans, either implanting ideas in their heads, or a sort of osmosis. It is said to be bad luck if it is seen, and rarely a doppelganger will make itself visible to friends or family, often causing great confusion. Doppelgangers can be mischievous and malicious. http://webhome.idirect.com/~donlong/monsters/Html/Doppelga.htm "twin parabolas" Main Entry: pa�rab�o�la Pronunciation: p&-'ra-b&-l& Function: noun Etymology: New Latin, from Greek parabolE, literally, comparison 1 : a plane curve generated by a point moving so that its distance from a fixed point is equal to its distance from a fixed line : the intersection of a right circular cone with a plane parallel to an element of the cone ... http://m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=parabola Parabolas, parabels, parables, rainbows ... David Lupescu DAVID m Usage: English, Jewish, French, Spanish, Russian, Czech, Biblical Pronounced: DAY-vid (English), da-VEED (French) Possibly derived from Hebrew dod meaning "beloved". David was the second and greatest of the kings of Israel, ruling in the 10th century BC. Several stories about him are told in the Old Testament, including his defeat of Goliath, a giant Philistine. Jesus was supposedly descended from him.... http://www.behindthename.com/nm/d.html http://www.behindthename.com/nmc/jew.html http://www.behindthename.com/nmc/bibl.html The second character we meet, the absconding host of the party, is one David Lupescu (Wolfman �from canis lupus, wolf?), a Rumanian who disconcertingly resembles Siegel. (The word "doppelg�nger" comes into Siegel's mind when he first sees Lupescu.) Knowing Pynchon's penchant for pointing beyond the text, we should investigate the name Lupescu; and, sure enough, there is one historical Lupescu of note: Magda Lupescu, Jewish mistress, later wife, of King Carol II of Rumania. There are no other Rumanian references in this story. Pynchon may, however, be alerting us to the form of insanity known as lycanthropy, in which the patient imagines himself to be a wolf and exhibits depraved appetites for human flesh; but since this illness seems to occur in Hollywood, Pynchon may be merely playing. http://www.vheissu.org/art/art_eng_SL_hollander.htm#chap_7 http://www.vheissu.org/art/art_eng_SL_hollander.htm And see as well ... http://waste.org/mail/?list=pynchon-l&month=9905&msg=38020&keywords __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From lycidas2 at earthlink.net Wed Aug 11 19:56:01 2004 From: lycidas2 at earthlink.net (Terrance) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2004 20:56:01 -0400 Subject: LPPM MMV Meshugeh References: <20040812003649.34592.qmail@web50708.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <411AC021.DEF7C823@earthlink.net> > > Shmuck: another of the many Yiddish words for "penis." > Although it has the same basic meaning as "putz," a > shmuck generally refers to someone with greater power > or social or emotional status. What's the difference between a Putz and a Schmuck? A Schmuck gets out of the shower to take a pee. On what point does Cleanth's Mother, a Meshugeh (sometimes pronounced "meshugeneh") take issue with Aquinas and the Roman Church? Natural Law? Measure for Measure? This seems to be the key to this allusive parable. Unlike Joyce's protagonist, who takes up Aquinas and Shakespeare to give weight to his aesthetic theories, Pynchon's protagonist takes up the Law, Ethics, Mercy, Punishment, Natural Law. Of course this is the theme of the novel V. and it is the driving force of Pynchon's two masterworks, GR and M&D. How is Pynchon related to the Law? How isn't he related to the Law? From lycidas2 at earthlink.net Wed Aug 11 20:34:41 2004 From: lycidas2 at earthlink.net (Terrance) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2004 21:34:41 -0400 Subject: Double Stuff Message-ID: <411AC931.3466192B@earthlink.net> http://waste.org/mail/?list=pynchon-l&month=0001&msg=44083&sort=thread http://waste.org/mail/?list=pynchon-l&month=0001&msg=44082&sort=thread http://waste.org/mail/?list=pynchon-l&month=0001&msg=44121&sort=date Can't find Gary Thompson's stuff. Anybody? An' here I sit so patiently Waiting to find out what price You have to pay to get out of Going through all these things twice. Oh, Mama, can this really be the end, To be stuck inside of Parable With the Rainbow Blues again. From isread at btopenworld.com Thu Aug 12 00:26:34 2004 From: isread at btopenworld.com (Paul Nightingale) Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 06:26:34 +0100 Subject: LPPM MMV "Siegel" Message-ID: <000001c4802c$f1ca7470$0201a8c0@Foucault> The story opens with Siegel juxtaposed to tourists at the Monument. He both isn't but is a tourist, since the rest of the story sees him positioned as a kind of sightseer at the party: uncommitted, he eventually leaves as though he'd never been there (he fails to intervene, his departure means he won't be included in the statistical description of events ... all of which confirms the impression offered by his low-key arrival). His observations at the party are juxtaposed to Debby's "list ... of unofficial statistics": one kind of tourism, so to speak, against another. As Siegel talks with Lucy and Debbie the party is elsewhere; Lucy's story briefly forces the narrative away from Siegel's pov (which in turn pre-echoes his subsequent departure). Chris' thoughts yesterday on "Zeit the doctor" remind us of the opening of VL, which also juxtaposes linear time to cyclical time, and which also features a putative protagonist somewhat out-of-synch with the narrative. Like Siegel, Irving Loon is out-of-place at the party. If then the in-joke (and it must be confined to a few people 'in the know') sees Pynchon name Siegel after a personal friend, the stratagem allows him to insert himself as named author (conventionally, the coded source of all meaning) in the form of Grossmann (who of course has read a lot of Eliot): within the narrative, the roommate's appearance, conjured up by Siegel's memory, is juxtaposed to Lucy's discourse/monologue. Not least, Grossmann's inability to admit to "civilisation outside of Cook County" recalls Pynchon's comments in the SL Intro regarding his parochialism (?) as a writer: his Bad Ear (which in fact works well with Harvey in MMIV) as well as Baedekerised history-as-tourism. In both MMIV and the SL Intro Pynchon poses the question of authorship: how do I, here, get to be there? From ottosell at yahoo.de Thu Aug 12 03:54:13 2004 From: ottosell at yahoo.de (Otto) Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 10:54:13 +0200 Subject: LPPM MMV "His Roommate at College" References: <20040812003649.34592.qmail@web50708.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <001901c48049$f2269800$0101a8c0@i7t2q2> Wonderful websites, Dave; thanks: Momma's Ruggelach Sid was lying on his deathbed. Marty, his oldest, was at his side. His wife, Leah was in the kitchen, baking her famous ruggelach. The delicious smell drifted from the kitchen to the bedroom. Sid takes Marty's hand and says to him, "Marty, be a good boy...go bring me one of Mama's ruggelach, I should die a happy man with that taste on my tongue..." So, Marty, being a good boy, goes into the kitchen and reaches for a ruggelach from the plate. Before Marty can even touch it, Mama slaps his hand away. "Don't touch those ruggelach!" she says to him. "But Mama," says Marty, "It's for Papa. He only wants to have the taste of your baking on his lips when he dies." "Get out of here!!" she scolds, shooing him out. "They're for the shiva!" http://www.bubbygram.com/zenjewishhumor ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave Monroe" To: Sent: Thursday, August 12, 2004 2:36 AM Subject: LPPM MMV "His Roommate at College" > > schmuck > > PRONUNCIATION: shmuk > VARIANT FORMS: also shmuck > NOUN: Slang A clumsy or stupid person; an oaf. > ETYMOLOGY: Yiddish shmok, penis, fool, probably from > Polish smok, serpent, tail. > > http://www.bartleby.com/61/84/S0138400.html > > Shmuck: another of the many Yiddish words for "penis." > Although it has the same basic meaning as "putz," a > shmuck generally refers to someone with greater power > or social or emotional status. > > http://www.bubbygram.com/yiddishglossary.htm > > And see as well, e.g., ... > > http://www.wordiq.com/definition/Yiddish_language > > I would note that this WASN'T glossed at ... > > http://hebrew4christians.com/Glossary/Yiddish_Words/yiddish_words.html > > From lycidas2 at earthlink.net Thu Aug 12 05:57:46 2004 From: lycidas2 at earthlink.net (Terrance) Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 06:57:46 -0400 Subject: LPPM MMV Slow Learner Pynchon's Jewish Characters References: <20040812003649.34592.qmail@web50708.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <411B4D2A.FF90AB2A@earthlink.net> Lardass Levine, Clean Siegel, Penis Flange, Benny Profane ... what's up with that? From pynchonoid at yahoo.com Thu Aug 12 18:10:30 2004 From: pynchonoid at yahoo.com (pynchonoid) Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 16:10:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: MMV Message-ID: <20040812231030.35846.qmail@web40714.mail.yahoo.com> Needa Life: >There's a reason it was left out >of >Slow Learner. ...and you don't know what that is. >OK, let's try: Keep your day job. ===== http://pynchonoid.org "everything connects" http://neoconservadroid.org "android warriors of the right" __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From pynchonoid at yahoo.com Thu Aug 12 18:14:47 2004 From: pynchonoid at yahoo.com (pynchonoid) Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 16:14:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: LPPM MMV Slow Learner Pynchon's Jewish Characters In-Reply-To: <411B4D2A.FF90AB2A@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <20040812231447.45229.qmail@web40712.mail.yahoo.com> "There may be no gods, but there is a pattern: names by themselves may have no magic, but the act of naming, the physical utterance, obeys the pattern." (GR, 322) --- Terrance wrote: > Lardass Levine, Clean Siegel, Penis Flange, Benny > Profane ... what's up > with that? > ===== http://pynchonoid.org "everything connects" http://neoconservadroid.org "android warriors of the right" __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From monropolitan at yahoo.com Thu Aug 12 19:36:38 2004 From: monropolitan at yahoo.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 17:36:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: LPPM MMV "Christmas Eve, 1919" Message-ID: <20040813003638.52170.qmail@web50707.mail.yahoo.com> "Siegel shook hands, muttering his own name and the spell broke; he looked at the object under Lupescu's arm and saw that it really was a pig foetus, caught the faint scent of formaldehyde and scratched his head. 'I brought some booze' he said. 'I'm sorry about this, I'd thought Rachel said seven.' Lupescu smiled vaguely and closed the door behind him. 'Don't worry about it,' he said, 'I've got to put this thing someplace.' He motioned Siegel to a seat and picked up an old-fashioned glass from a table, a chair from nearby, dragged the chair to the entrance of what Siegel presumed was the kitchen, stood on the chair, took a thumbtack from his pocket, stuck it through the umbilical cord of the pig foetus and tacked it onto the molding over the entrance, hammering with the bottom of the glass. He jumped down off the chair and above him the foetus swung dangerously. He looked up at it. 'I hope it stays there,' he said, and then turned to face Siegel. 'Fetching, isn't it?' Siegel shrugged. 'Dada exhibit in Paris on Christmas eve, 1919,' Lupescu said, 'used one in place of mistletoe. But ten to one this group won't even notice it. You know Paul Brennan? He won't.'" (MMV, pp. 2-3) "a pig foetus" E.g., ... http://www.whitman.edu/biology/vpd/ http://www.goshen.edu/bio/PigBook/pighome.html http://www.biology.ucok.edu/animalbiology/pigweb/pig.html "Dada exhibit in Paris on Christmas Eve, 1919" The study of Parisian Dada is of limited interest to the art historian, for the French capital was predominantly the scene of an ideological or literary battleground. Actually, Dada produced only two French artists of major importance -- Duchamp and Picabia. Out of the junction between on the one hand, Picabia and Tzara, who had arrived in Paris from Zurich respectively in 1919 and 1920, and on the other hand the group (Andr� Breton, Louis Aragon, Philippe Soupault, Paul �luard) formed around the little periodical Litt�rature, was born the French branch of the movement, the most notorious because it was to serve somewhat as a sounding board to Zurich dadaism. Its brilliant Parisian career, opened with a flourish in January 1920, was to end in a slump four years later. Meanwhile it had sponsored a great number of manifestations, exhibitions, shows, public provocations, a burst of manifestos, pamphlets, magazines and books, sometimes extremely varied, but always bearing Dada's iconclastic and irreverential hallmark. However, the united face the dadaists showed the public was already cracked. Only a few weeks after its formation, the group split up into two factions: a Zurich radical wing, led by Tzara; and a Parisian tendency, represented by Breton and his friends who, more open to the literary tradition, was to resurface in 1924 under the new name of surrealism. http://www.dadart.com/dadaism/dada/024-dada-paris.html Although Dada did not reach Paris until 1920, figures in the Parisian literary and artistic world had followed Dada activities either through Tristan Tzara's journal Dada or through direct communication with Tzara. Stifled by the restrictions of the war, they were drawn to Dada's revolutionary spirit and nihilistic antics. Writers Louis Aragon, Breton, and Ribemont-Dessaignes had in fact occasionally contributed to Dada since 1918, and were eagerly awaiting Tzara's arrival in Paris. The voice of Dada would soon be celebrated in Paris. By 1920 most of the initiators of Dada has arrived in Paris for what was to be the finale of Dada group activities. Arp and Tzara came from Zurich, Man Ray and Picabia from New York, and Max Ernst arrived from Cologne. They were enthusiastically received in Paris by a circle of writers associated with Breton's and Aragon's literary journal Litt�rature. A special Dada issue of Litt�rature, with "Twenty-Three Manifestos of the Dada Movement," soon appeared to celebrate their arrival.[23] Stimulated by Tzara, this newly formed Paris group soon began issuing Dada manifestos, organizing demonstrations, staging performances, and producing a number of journals. At the height of Dada activity in Paris, Tzara published two more issues of Dada. The first, issue number 6 (February 1920), also known as Bulletin Dada, appeared in large format and contained programs for Dada events, in addition to a series of bewildering poems and outrageous declarations, all presented in the fragmentary typographical style that Tzara had begun experimenting with in Zurich. The many event announcements in this issue reflect the emphasis the Paris group placed on public performance. Contributors to the sixth issue of Dada indicate the range of artists who now aligned themselves with the Dadaists: Breton, Duchamp, �luard, and Picabia are all featured in this issue. The last number of Dada (Dadaphone) came out in March 1920. This issue features photographs of the Paris Dada members and includes advertisements for other Dada journals and announcements for Dada events, such as exhibitions and a Dadaist ball. When Picabia joined the Dadaists in Paris in 1919, he too brought his journal with him.... http://www.artic.edu/reynolds/essays/hofmann2.php And see as well, e.g., ... http://www.peak.org/~dadaist/English/Graphics/dadaparis.html Oh, Keith ... "above him the foetus swung dangerously" A la The Sword of Damocles ... DAMOCLES, one of the courtiers of the elder Dionysius of Syracuse. When he spoke in extravagant terms of the happiness of his sovereign, Dionysius is said to have invited him to a sumptuous banquet, at which he found himself seated under a naked sword suspended by a single hair (Cicero, Tusc. V. 21; Horace, Odes, iii. I, 17; Persius iji. 40). http://29.1911encyclopedia.org/D/DA/DAMOCLES.htm And see as well, e.g., ... http://www.livius.org/sh-si/sicily/sicily_t11.html http://ancienthistory.about.com/library/bl/bl_damocles.htm Paul Brennan �Paul Brennan� � It seems that in this story filled with typically obtuse Pynchonesque names, we have here an utterly bland one. For this reason, it stands out more. Would I be correct in thinking this would be a very US-WASPey kind of name? http://waste.org/mail/?list=pynchon-l&month=0303&msg=77296 PAUL m Usage: English, French, German, Romanian, Biblical Pronounced: PAWL, POL (French) >From the Roman family name Paulus, which meant "small" or "humble" in Latin. Saint Paul was an important leader of the early Christian church, his story told in Acts in the New Testament. He was originally named Saul, but changed his name after converting to Christianity. Most of the epistles in the New Testament were authored by him.... http://www.behindthename.com/nm/p.html >From St. Paul himself we know that he was born at Tarsus in Cilicia (Acts, xxi, 39), of a father who was a Roman citizen (Acts, xxii, 26-28; cf. xvi, 37), of a family in which piety was hereditary (II Tim., i, 3) and which was much attached to Pharisaic traditions and observances (Phil., iii, 5-6). [...] As he belonged to the tribe of Benjamin he was given at the time of his circumcision the name of Saul, which must have been common in that tribe in memory of the first king of the Jews (Phil., iii, 5). As a Roman citizen he also bore the Latin name of Paul. It was quite usual for the Jews of that time to have two names, one Hebrew, the other Latin or Greek, between which there was often a certain assonance .... We read in the Acts of the Apostles three accounts of the conversion of St. Paul (ix, 1-19; xxii, 3-21; xxvi, 9-23) presenting some slight differences, which it is not difficult to harmonize and which do not affect the basis of the narrative, which is perfectly identical in substance.... http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11567b.htm The meaning of the name BRENNAN in its original Irish form, as a personal name, still remains an enigma. Spelling variations include: Brennan, McBrennan, Brannon, Brannan, Brannen, Brannin, O'Braonain and MacBranain and many more. The current thinking of the name Brennan or Braonan is generally interpreted as meaning 'Sorrow', or 'Little Drop', although some might wonder whether a King of the Vikings was more likely to name his son after Braon, the Celtic God of War. Another meaning of the word is "The sons of little Raven", "One who delights in battle." http://www.janbren.freeserve.co.uk/Brennan%20Surname.htm Definition: One of Ireland's most frequent surnames BRENNAN derives from one of three Irish personal names: س Braonلin, from braon, probably meaning "sorrow," and Mac Branلin and س Branلin, both from bran, meaning "raven." Surname Origin: Irish Alternate Surname Spellings: BRENNEN, MCBRENNAN, MACBRENNAN, BRANNON, BRANNAN, BRANNEN, BRANNIN, O'BRAONAIN http://genealogy.about.com/library/surnames/b/bl_name-BRENNAN.htm And see as well ... http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~irishancestors/Surnames/Surnames%20in%20Ireland/AdamsButler/Brennan.html Thanks again, John. Okay, it's going to be slowgoing over the weekend, but ... and pardon the mistaken pagination in the last few posts, my fault, not David & Otto's PDF ... __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From lycidas2 at earthlink.net Thu Aug 12 20:30:39 2004 From: lycidas2 at earthlink.net (Terrance) Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 21:30:39 -0400 Subject: LPPM MMV Cornell Originals & clotted Harlem plumbing groaned References: <20040813003638.52170.qmail@web50707.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <411C19BF.46009468@earthlink.net> When I first read the book, I was comparing it with my own experience of the same place, time, and people. It seemed then that Gnosos and Fariña were one and the same. It was also great fun recognizing the real-life counterparts of the other characters, being tickled by what he'd done with and to them. Now, nearly twenty years later, seeing a little further into his method, I think maybe it wasn't so simple. He didn't just take things that had happened and change names. He really worked his ass off, but the result is so graceful that the first time around I was fooled completely. 1983 Thomas Pynchon Intoduction to Richard Fariña's _Been Down So Long It Looks Like Up To Me_ When they shot Malcolm Little down On the stage of the Audobon Ballroom, When his life ran out through bullet holes (Like the people running out then the murder began) His blood soaked the floor One drop found a crack through the stark Pounding thunder-slipped under the stage and began Its journey: burrowed through concrete into the cellar, Dropped down darkness, exploding like quicksilver Pellets of light, panicking rats, paralyzing cockroaches- Tunneled through rubble and wrecks of foundations, The rocks that buttress the bowels of the city, flowed Into pipes and powerlines, the mains and cables of the city: A thousand fiery seeds. At that moment, Those who drank water where he entered... Those who cooked food where he passed... Those who burned light while he listened... Those who were talking as he went, knew he was water Running out of faucets, gas running out of jets, power Running out of sockets, meaning running along taut wires - To the hungers of their living. It was said Whole slums of clotted Harlem plumbing groaned And sundered free that day, and disconnected gas and light Went on and on and on ... They rushed his riddled body on a stretcher To the hospital. But the police were too late. It had already happened. Raymond R. Patterson From ottosell at yahoo.de Fri Aug 13 13:46:40 2004 From: ottosell at yahoo.de (Otto) Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 20:46:40 +0200 Subject: Herero Message-ID: <001501c48165$e06657a0$0101a8c0@i7t2q2> DEUTSCHLANDS ERSTER VÖLKERMORD "Das Röcheln der Sterbenden verhallte in der erhabenen Stille" Von Dominik Baur http://www.spiegel.de/politik/ausland/0,1518,313043,00.html From lupine at ncia.net Fri Aug 13 18:10:49 2004 From: lupine at ncia.net (Scott Badger) Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 19:10:49 -0400 Subject: LPPM MMV "His Roommate at College" References: <20040812003649.34592.qmail@web50708.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <003401c4818a$c6a07150$24031845@DG2YWP41> Dave Monroe: > Grossmann > > "Grossmann" - large man? Big Man on Campus? > > http://waste.org/mail/?list=pynchon-l&month=0303&msg=77296 > > Grossmann = Pynchon? > > http://waste.org/mail/?list=pynchon-l&month=0408&msg=92402 Brings to mind Gutman (Casper), aka the Fatman,, in The Maltese Falcon. Scott From rroley at naropa.net Sat Aug 14 12:30:23 2004 From: rroley at naropa.net (rroley at naropa.net) Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2004 11:30:23 -0600 Subject: LPPM MMV "His Roommate at College" In-Reply-To: <003401c4818a$c6a07150$24031845@DG2YWP41> References: <20040812003649.34592.qmail@web50708.mail.yahoo.com> <003401c4818a$c6a07150$24031845@DG2YWP41> Message-ID: <1092504623.411e4c2f31f3e@naropa.net> New to this group and haven't read MMV yet - but did run across the name Grossmann reading 'the fabric of the cosmos' last night. There was a mathematition by that name who did some work with Einstein on the general theory of relativity. Bob Quoting Scott Badger : > Dave Monroe: > > > Grossmann > > > > "Grossmann" - large man? Big Man on Campus? > > > > http://waste.org/mail/?list=pynchon-l&month=0303&msg=77296 > > > > Grossmann = Pynchon? > > > > http://waste.org/mail/?list=pynchon-l&month=0408&msg=92402 > > > Brings to mind Gutman (Casper), aka the Fatman,, in The Maltese Falcon. > > Scott > --- Naropa University - an adventure in mind, body, and spirit. http://www.naropa.edu From monropolitan at yahoo.com Sat Aug 14 16:05:06 2004 From: monropolitan at yahoo.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2004 14:05:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: LPPM MMV "Mon Semblable, Mon Frere" Message-ID: <20040814210506.56867.qmail@web50709.mail.yahoo.com> "'Good grief,' Siegel said, cowering a little. 'Mon semblable,' Lupescu said, 'mon frere.' He gazed at Siegel. 'A sign,' he said, 'a sign, and deliverance.' Siegel could smell alcohol fumes on Lupescu's breath. "I beg your pardon.'" (MMV, p. 3) "Good grief" http://www.unitedmedia.com/comics/peanuts/meet_the_gang/meet_charlie_brown.html "Mon semblable, mon frere" Au Lecteur [...] C'est l'Ennui!�l'oeil charg� d'un pleur involontaire, Il r�ve d'�chafauds en fumant son houka. Tu le connais, lecteur, ce monstre d�licat, �Hypocrite lecteur,�mon semblable,�mon fr�re! http://www.press.uchicago.edu/Misc/Chicago/039250.html Charles Baudelaire, Les Fleurs du Mal (1857, 1861) http://www.fleursdumal.org/ http://www.ac-strasbourg.fr/pedago/lettres/Fleurs/ http://un2sg4.unige.ch/athena/baudelaire/baud_flm.html French - From preface to Baudelaire's Fleurs du Mal hypocrite lecteur!--mon semblable,--mon fr�re! hypocrite reader!--my double,--my brother! Unreal City, Under the brown fog of a winter dawn, A crowd flowed over London Bridge, so many, I had not thought death had undone so many. Sighs, short and infrequent, were exhaled, And each man fixed his eyes before his feet. Flowed up the hill and down King William Street, To where Saint Mary Woolnoth kept the hours With a dead sound on the final stroke of nine. There I saw one I knew, and stopped him, crying 'Stetson! 'You who were with me in the ships at Mylae! 'That corpse you planted last year in your garden, 'Has it begun to sprout? Will it bloom this year? 'Or has the sudden frost disturbed its bed? 'Oh keep the Dog far hence, that's friend to men, 'Or with his nails he'll dig it up again! 'You! hypocrite lecteur!�mon semblable,�mon fr�re!' T.S. Eliot, "The Waste Land," 60-76 (1922) http://world.std.com/~raparker/exploring/thewasteland/table/explore5.html And see as well, e.g., ... http://members1.chello.nl/~a.vanarum8/EliotProject/Waste_notes/Waste_A.htm http://www.bartleby.com/201/1.html __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail is new and improved - Check it out! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From monropolitan at yahoo.com Sat Aug 14 16:27:20 2004 From: monropolitan at yahoo.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2004 14:27:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: LPPM MMV "Fisher of Souls" Message-ID: <20040814212720.38855.qmail@web50708.mail.yahoo.com> "'Only a matter of time,' he said. 'Tonight. Of course. Why. Why not. Pig foetus. Symbol. God, what a symbol. And now. Freedom. Deliverance,' he screamed. 'Genie. Bottle. Century after century, until Siegel, fisher of souls, pulls the cork.' He began running around the room. 'Raincoat,' he said, picking up a raincoat off the sofa, 'shaving gear.' He disappeared into the kitchen for a moment, came out with an overnight kit in his hands wearing the raincoat. He paused at the door." (MMV, p. 3) Huh? Joyce? Beckett? Okay ... "Genie. Bottle." "The Fisherman and the Jinni," The Arabian Nights, Trans. Sir Richard Burton (1850) http://classiclit.about.com/library/bl-etexts/arabian/bl-arabian-jinni.htm http://www.geocities.com/Athens/4824/arabian/a_night_2.html http://www.wollamshram.ca/1001/Dixon/dixon02_19.htm "fisher of souls" As he was walking by the Sea of Galilee, he saw two brothers, Simon who is called Peter, and his brother Andrew, casting a net into the sea; they were fishermen. He said to them, "Come after me, and I will make you fishers of men." (Matthew 4: 18-19) http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/matthew/matthew4.htm As he passed by the Sea of Galilee, he saw Simon and his brother Andrew casting their nets into the sea; they were fishermen. Jesus said to them, "Come after me, and I will make you fishers of men." (Mark 1: 16-17) http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/mark/mark1.htm __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From monropolitan at yahoo.com Sat Aug 14 17:50:20 2004 From: monropolitan at yahoo.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2004 15:50:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: LPPM MMV "It's All Yours" Message-ID: <20040814225020.80889.qmail@web50709.mail.yahoo.com> "'It's all yours,' he said. 'You are now the host. As host you are a trinity: (a) receiver of guests--' ticking them off on his fingers--'(b) an enemy and (c) an outward manifestation, for them, of the divine body and blood.' "'Wait a minute,' Siegel said, 'where the hell are you going?' "'The outside,' Lupescu said, 'out of the jungle.'" (MMV, p. 3) "It's all yours" Cf. ... Hold therefore, Angelo:-- In our remove be thou at full ourself; Mortality and mercy in Vienna Live in thy tongue and heart: old Escalus, Though first in question, is thy secondary. Take thy commission. (MM I.i.29-50) http://the-tech.mit.edu/Shakespeare/measure/measure.1.1.html http://ise.uvic.ca/Annex/DraftTxt/MM/MM_FScenes/MM_F1.1.html http://ise.uvic.ca/Annex/DraftTxt/MM/MM_FPages/MM_FF1.html "As host you are a trinity" Main Entry: host Function: noun Etymology: Middle English hoste host, guest, from Old French, from Latin hospit-, hospes, probably from hostis 1 a : one that receives or entertains guests socially, commercially, or officially b : one that provides facilities for an event or function ... Main Entry: host Pronunciation: 'hOst Function: noun Etymology: Middle English, from Old French, from Late Latin hostis, from Latin, stranger, enemy -- more at GUEST 1 : ARMY 2 : a very large number : MULTITUDE Main Entry: guest Pronunciation: 'gest Function: noun Etymology: Middle English gest, from Old Norse gestr; akin to Old English giest guest, stranger, Latin hostis stranger, enemy ... Main Entry: host Function: noun Usage: often capitalized Etymology: Middle English hoste, oste, from Middle French hoiste, from Late Latin & Latin; Late Latin hostia Eucharist, from Latin, sacrifice : the eucharistic bread http://m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary The bread destined to receive Eucharistic Consecration is commonly called the host, and though this term may likewise be applied to the bread and wine of the Sacrifice, it is more especially reserved to the bread. According to Ovid the word comes from hostis, enemy: "Hostibus a domitis hostia nomen habet", because the ancients offered their vanquished enemies as victims to the gods. However, it is possible that hostia is derived from hostire, to strike, as found in Pacuvius. In the West the term became general chiefly because of the use made of it in the Vulgate and the Liturgy .... It was applied to Christ, the Immolated Victim, and, by way of anticipation, to the still unconsecrated bread destined to become Christ's Body. In the Middle Ages it was also known as "hoiste", "oiste", "oite". In time the word acquired its actual special significance; by reason of its general liturgical use it no longer conveyed the original idea of victim.... [...] The preparation of the host gave rise among certain Gnostic sects to abominable and shocking practices, of which there is a detailed account in the writings of St. Epiphanius. Sometimes the flesh of a foetus was ground and mixed with aromatics; sometimes flour was kneaded with the blood of a child, and there were other proceedings too obnoxious to mention. But these horrors were perpetrated only by a few degraded groups .... http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07489d.htm Note host = guest etymologically (!) ... "The outside" Deus absconditus? Cf. ... "'By the time of Columbus, God's project of Disengagement was obvious to all,-- with the terrible understanding that we were to be left more and more to our own solutions.'" (M&D, Ch. 50, p. 487) "Verily thou art a God that hidest thyself, O God of Israel, the Saviour." Isaiah 45:15 http://www.bartleby.com/108/23/45.html#S69 The term Deus Absconditus means "hidden God" in Latin (Isaiah, 45:15 in the Vulgate Bible), and refers to the view (shared by the Protestant Luther and the Catholic Pascal) that God had become inaccessible, hiding himself from the view of sinful humans, and therefore demanding a challenging existential act of faith. Predestinarian theology held further that most people were incapable of perceiving the hidden God, whose gift of grace permitted the minority of the "elect" to know him. http://icg.harvard.edu/~laa72/glossary/deus_absconditus/ http://www.solideogloria.ch/calvin/italiano/deusabsconditus.htm http://waste.org/mail/?list=pynchon-l&month=0209&msg=70603 Tres gnostique ... "out of the jungle" jungle = hothouse? Cf. Callisto's apartment as a "hothouse jungle" in "Entropy," Pirate Prentice's "glass hothouse" in Gravity's Rainbow (p. 5), and, of course, V. ... hothouse "a hothouse sense of time," 57; "having somehow excaped the hothouse of his fellow Sephardim," 77; "an anteroom full of tropical hothouse growths," 148; sphere of influence, 158; "Like Machiavelli he was in exile, and visited by shadows of rhythm and decay." 160; "a jungle of hothouse flowers," 185; diseased blooms, 244; "sealed against the present," 305; "the room, though windowless and cold at night, is a hothouse. Because the room is the past, though it has no history of its own [...] a room sealed against the present," 305; hermetic, 307, 310; hot and airless, 396, 398, 406; "V. was an obsession after all, and [...] such an obsession is a hothouse: constant temperature, windless, too crowded with patricolored sports, unnatural blooms." 448; "As we get older we skew more toward the past." 470; "Right and Left; the hothouse and the street. The Right can only live and work hermetically, in the hothouse of the past, while outside the Left prosecute their affairs in the streets by manipulated mob violence. And cannot live but in the dreamscape of the future." 468; "But Valletta seemed serene in her own past, in the Mediterranean womb, in something so insulating that Zeus himself might once have quarantined her and her island for an old sin or an older pestilence. So at peace was Valletta that with the least distance she would deteriorate to mere spectacle. She ceased to exist as anything quick or pulsed, and was assumed again into the textual stillness of her own history." 474; "To enter [...] the hothouse of a Florentine spring once again [...] a total nostalgic hush rests on the heart's landscape." 486; "The street and the hothouse; in V. were resolved by some magic, the two extremes." 487; 488; "hothouse-time," 489; "He forced himself into the real present, perhaps aware it would be his last time there." 490 ... http://www.hyperarts.com/pynchon/v/alpha/h.html Yr humble reciever of guests, enemy and/or outward manifestation of the divine body and blood ... __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From monropolitan at yahoo.com Sat Aug 14 18:13:13 2004 From: monropolitan at yahoo.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2004 16:13:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: LPPM MMV "Mistah Kurtz--He Dead" Message-ID: <20040814231313.61034.qmail@web50701.mail.yahoo.com> "Ten seconds later the door opened again and Lupescu stuck his head in and winked. 'Mistah Kurtz--he dead,' he announced owlishly and disappeared." (MMV, p. 3) "Mistah Kurtz--he dead" Joseph Conrad, Heart of Darkness (1902) "His was an impenetrable darkness. I looked at him as you peer down at a man who is lying at the bottom of a precipice where the sun never shines. But I had not much time to give him, because I was helping the engine-driver to take to pieces the leaky cylinders, to straighten a bent connecting-rod, and in other such matters. I lived in an infernal mess of rust, filings, nuts, bolts, spanners, hammers, ratchet-drills--things I abominate, because I don't get on with them. I tended the little forge we fortunately had aboard; I toiled wearily in a wretched scrap-heap--unless I had the shakes too bad to stand. "One evening coming in with a candle I was startled to hear him say a little tremulously, 'I am lying here in the dark waiting for death.' The light was within a foot of his eyes. I forced myself to murmur, 'Oh, nonsense!' and stood over him as if transfixed. "Anything approaching the change that came over his features I have never seen before, and hope never to see again. Oh, I wasn't touched. I was fascinated. It was as though a veil had been rent. I saw on that ivory face the expression of somber pride, of ruthless power, of craven terror--of an intense and hopeless despair. Did he live his life again in every detail of desire, temptation, and surrender during that supreme moment of complete knowledge? He cried in a whisper at some image, at some vision,--he cried out twice, a cry that was no more than a breath-- "'The horror! The horror!' "I blew the candle out and left the cabin. The pilgrims were dining in the mess-room, and I took my place opposite the manager, who lifted his eyes to give me a questioning glance, which I successfully ignored. He leaned back, serene, with that peculiar smile of his sealing the unexpressed depths of his meanness. A continuous shower of small flies streamed upon the lamp, upon the cloth, upon our hands and faces. Suddenly the manager's boy put his insolent black head in the doorway, and said in a tone of scathing contempt-- "'Mistah Kurtz--he dead.'" http://www.classic-novels.com/author/joseph_conrad/heart_of_darkness/heart021.htm http://www.classic-novels.com/author/joseph_conrad/heart_of_darkness/heartarchive.htm And see as well, e.g., ... http://www.online-literature.com/conrad/heart_of_darkness/ http://wyllie.lib.virginia.edu:8086/perl/toccer-new?id=ConDark.sgm&images=images/modeng&data=/texts/english/modeng/parsed&tag=public&part=all T.S. Eliot, "The Hollow Men" (1925) MISTAH KURTZ--HE DEAD. A penny for the Old Guy I We are the hollow men We are the stuffed men Leaning together Headpiece filled with straw. Alas! ... http://www.cs.berkeley.edu/~richie/poetry/html/aupoem74.html http://www.english.uiuc.edu/maps/poets/a_f/eliot/hollow.htm "owlishly" Main Entry: owl�ish Pronunciation: 'au-lish Function: adjective : resembling or suggesting an owl - owl�ish�ly adverb ... http://m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=owlishly Huh? "Stuck in his head and winked"? But do note that Lupescu has been quoting passages also quoted by Eliot, or, perhaps, quoting Eliot quoting other authors (Baudelaire, Conrad). Tres postmoderniste ... __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From keithsz at sbcglobal.net Sat Aug 14 18:17:04 2004 From: keithsz at sbcglobal.net (Keith McMullen) Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2004 16:17:04 -0700 Subject: LPPM MMV "Fisher of Souls" In-Reply-To: <20040814212720.38855.qmail@web50708.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20040814212720.38855.qmail@web50708.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <0DA467F6-EE48-11D8-994F-000A95BDCA92@sbcglobal.net> "fisher of souls" http://essenes.net/fisher1.html http://www.bartleby.com/81/6499.html From lycidas2 at earthlink.net Sat Aug 14 18:49:37 2004 From: lycidas2 at earthlink.net (Terrance) Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2004 19:49:37 -0400 Subject: LPPM MMV "Fisher of Souls" References: <20040814212720.38855.qmail@web50708.mail.yahoo.com> <0DA467F6-EE48-11D8-994F-000A95BDCA92@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <411EA511.A42191F6@earthlink.net> Read Chapter 3 of Joyce's Portrait. Anything else my child? Sloth. The Great Fisher Of Souls, the great soldier who went to the Indies and brought an thousand souls per day to God, was the fearless founding Jesuit. Yup, Pynchon never got the great Jesuit education, but it seems he didn't need one. In any event, he remains in awe of the Jesuits. And why not? http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06233b.htm As far as the Jin in the bottle goes, another inter textual allusion to the theme--Stoic versus Aquinas-- questions of what is Right and what is Wrong and How we Measure and how the Fates Spin and Slit the thin spun life. The Arabian Nights tale, F&J teaches a lesson about forgiveness and trust, it's about Justice and Mercy. From monropolitan at yahoo.com Sat Aug 14 19:14:10 2004 From: monropolitan at yahoo.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2004 17:14:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: LPPM MMV "A Charming Southern Accent" Message-ID: <20040815001410.15837.qmail@web50710.mail.yahoo.com> "The door was suddenly and violently kicked open and through it lurched a fat florid adolescent in a sailor suit, carrying a girl piggy-back. 'Lewpayskew,' the sailor shouted. 'Whay aw yew, yew mothuh-lovin Roumanian.' "'Hold on,' Siegel said. 'What was that again,' he asked the sailor, who had deposited his passenger on the floor. 'Mayun ah said whay's Lewpayskew,' the sailor said. 'God,' he babbled into the phone, 'they're coming, they're filtering in already. What do I do, Rachel, they can't even talk English. There is some nautical looking type here who is speaking no language known to man.' "'Darling,' Rachel laughed, 'stop acting like a war flick. That's probably only Harvey Duckworth, who comes from Alabama and has a charming southern accent. You'll get along wonderfully, I know you will. Call me tomorrow and let me know everything that has happened.'" (MMV, pp. 3-4) Harvey Duckworth �Harvey Duckworth� � What�s a duck worth? Harvard/Duckworth (both publish books, though I don�t know how long Duckworth have been around)? http://waste.org/mail/?list=pynchon-l&month=0303&msg=77296 Harvey http://www.harvey.com/ http://www.toonopedia.com/harvey.htm Duckworth http://www.duckw.com/ HARVEY m Usage: English Pronounced: HAHR-vee >From a surname which was derived from the Breton first name Haerviu, which meant "battle worthy" from Breton haer "battle" and viu "worthy". The first name was introduced to England by Breton settlers after the Norman Conquest. https://www.behindthename.com/nmc/eng6.html Battle worthy AND duck worthy? Okay ... "a charming southern accent" On "The Small Rain" ... "Most of what I dislike about my writing is present here in embroyo, as well as in more advanced forms. I failed to recognize, just for openers, that the main character's problem was real and interesting enough to generate a story on its own. Apparently I felt I had to put on a whole extra overlay of rain images and references to 'The Waste Land' and A Farewell to Arms. I was operating on the motto 'Make it literary,' a piece of bad advice I made up all by myself and then took. Equally embarrassing is the case of Bad Ear to be found marring much of the dialogue, especially toward the end. My sense of regional accents in those days primitive at best. I had noticed how in the military voices got homogenized into one basic American country voice." (SL, "Intro," p. 4) "Mizzable Guineas" Pronounced "gi-nee." Came from "Guinea Negro" and originally referred to any Black or any person of mixed ancestry. This dates back to the 1740's. By the 1890s it was being applied to Italians--almost certainly because they tend to have darker skin than Anglo-Saxons/Germans. By 1911 the term began being applied to Hispanics, although the reference to Italians is the most common. http://gyral.blackshell.com/names.html The use of guinea as an extremely offensive ethnic slur directed against Italians or those of Italian descent is only one of several uses of this word. The earliest related form to note is Guinea negro, first recorded in the mid-eighteenth century. This referred literally to a black person from Guinea, a region on the coast of West Africa. Common in the eighteenth century in this form, by the early nineteenth century we began to see guinea used on its own (without negro) to refer to a black person. This sense is now rare or obsolete. The usual sense 'an Italian person or person of Italian descent' is first recorded in 1890 and appears to have been reasonably common thereafter. (It even appears in the well-known 1894 song "Sidewalks of New York," the one with the chorus "East side, West side, all around the town": "Boys and girls together, we would sing and waltz/While the Ginnie played the organ on the sidewalks of New York." This verse is often euphemized to "While Tony played the organ....") This sense was probably inspired by guinea in the sense 'a black person' with reference to the relatively dark skin of southern Italians, who made up the majority of Italian immigrants at that time. Other racial slurs that normally refer to black people are also often applied to members of other dark-skinned groups. Guinea is found reasonably often in two other senses in the early twentieth century: 'a Hispanic person' and 'a guy; fellow; person'. It is found less frequently in the senses 'a Southern European [not from Italy]' and 'the Italian language', and from World War II 'an Asian'. http://www.randomhouse.com/wotd/index.pperl?date=19981120 Perahps not quite so charming there, and not exclusively Southern, either. Cf. ... "On weekends when business was good and guinea red wine splashing around like the wave from a heavy merchantman ...." (V. Ch. 1, p. 10) Harper Perennial ed., see also pp. 143-4 ... __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From lycidas2 at earthlink.net Sat Aug 14 19:05:26 2004 From: lycidas2 at earthlink.net (Terrance) Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2004 20:05:26 -0400 Subject: LPPM MMV "Fisher of Souls" References: <20040814212720.38855.qmail@web50708.mail.yahoo.com> <0DA467F6-EE48-11D8-994F-000A95BDCA92@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <411EA8C6.9BBE772D@earthlink.net> Of course a fisherman is a hunter. http://www.reconstruction.ws/021/Haunting.htm Keith McMullen wrote: > > "fisher of souls" > > http://essenes.net/fisher1.html > > http://www.bartleby.com/81/6499.html From monropolitan at yahoo.com Sat Aug 14 19:19:30 2004 From: monropolitan at yahoo.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2004 17:19:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: LPPM MMV "Fisher of Souls" In-Reply-To: <0DA467F6-EE48-11D8-994F-000A95BDCA92@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <20040815001930.83517.qmail@web50702.mail.yahoo.com> Ah, thank you. I didn't even take the simple step there of searching "fisher of souls." Rather different implications there. Thanks again ... --- Keith McMullen wrote: > "fisher of souls" > > http://essenes.net/fisher1.html > > http://www.bartleby.com/81/6499.html __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From keithsz at sbcglobal.net Sat Aug 14 19:23:18 2004 From: keithsz at sbcglobal.net (Keith McMullen) Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2004 17:23:18 -0700 Subject: LPPM MMV "Fisher of Souls" In-Reply-To: <20040815001930.83517.qmail@web50702.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20040815001930.83517.qmail@web50702.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4EAA24B3-EE51-11D8-994F-000A95BDCA92@sbcglobal.net> >>>Ah, thank you. I didn't even take the simple step there of searching "fisher of souls."<<< There are advantages to being a simple man. From monropolitan at yahoo.com Sat Aug 14 19:31:35 2004 From: monropolitan at yahoo.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2004 17:31:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: LPPM MMV "His Roommate at College" In-Reply-To: <1092504623.411e4c2f31f3e@naropa.net> Message-ID: <20040815003135.77579.qmail@web50708.mail.yahoo.com> MARCEL GROSSMAN 9 April 1878, Budapest 7 September 1936, Zurich Marcel Grossmann studied mathematics at the Zurich Polytechnikum and earned his doctorate in 1912. He was appointed professor of descriptive geometry at the Eidgenoossische Technische Hochschule in 1907; he was a teacher of outstanding ability and gave many mathematicians their training in geometry. Marcel Grossmann was Albert Einstein's classmate When Einstein sought to formulate mathematically his ideas on the general theory of relativity, he turned to Grossmann for assistance. Grossmann introduced Einstein to the differential calculus .... The collaboration between Einstein and Grossmann is significantly documented in their article "Entwurf emer verallgemeinerten Relativitatstheorie und einer Theorie der Gravitation" in Zeit, fur Mathem. und Phys. 62, 3 (1913) By allowing the encounter of the mathematical achievements of the Italian geometers and the profound physical insight of Einstein, Marcel Grossmann facilitated the unique synthesis of mathematical and theoretical physics reached by Albert Einstein in the most elegant and powerful field theory of physics: The General Theory of Relativity. http://www.icra.it/MG/Marcel%20Grossmann%20cv.htm Thanks! AND Welcome! As MMV wasn't collected in Slow Learner, you can find it at ... http://www.themodernword.com/pynchon/pynchon_mortality.html http://www.pynchon.pomona.edu/uncollected/vienna.html ... if you haven't done so already. I'm using the pagination from ... http://www.ottosell.de/pynchon/mortalityetc.pdf Much of what we'll be getting to is at ... http://www.themodernword.com/pynchon/pynchon_essays.html http://www.pynchon.pomona.edu/uncollected/ ... though you might want to have a copy of Gravity's Rainbow at hand as well. Oh, Terrance ... but this connection is getting hearskipingly slow here, and I've already had to recopnstruct at least one post today as it is, so ... so as our CPU is fried, I may or may not be able to get back to this tomorrow, but I'll definitely put the push on Monday ... --- rroley at naropa.net wrote: > New to this group and haven't read MMV yet - but did > run across the name Grossmann reading 'the fabric > of the cosmos' last night. There was a > mathematition by that name who did some work with > Einstein on the general theory of relativity. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Address AutoComplete - You start. We finish. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From Dedalus204 at comcast.net Sat Aug 14 19:46:14 2004 From: Dedalus204 at comcast.net (Tim Strzechowski) Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2004 19:46:14 -0500 Subject: TPPM Host List Update Message-ID: <001801c48261$4560b1e0$15830f18@adminln4hlpboo> Only 5 spots remaining: Aug. 9 - Aug. 22: "Mortality and Mercy in Vienna" (1959) -- Dave Monroe Aug. 23 - Sept. 5: "Togetherness" (1960) -- Sept. 6 - Sept. 19: "The Gift" (1965) -- Glenn Scheper Sept. 20 - Oct. 3: "A Journey into the Mind of Watts" (1966) -- Paul Nightingale Oct. 4 - Oct. 17: Intro to Been Down So Long ... (1983) -- Richard Ryan Oct. 18 - Oct. 31: "Is it O.K. to Be a Luddite?" (1984) -- Joseph Tracy Nov. 1 - Nov. 14: "The Heart's Eternal Vow" (1988) -- Nov. 15 - Nov. 28: Intro to The Writings of Donald Barthelme (1992) -- Nov. 29 - Dec. 12: "Nearer, My Couch, to Thee" (1993) -- Tim Strzechowski ** Assuming most folks will want a holiday hiatus until the new year ... ** Jan. 3 - Jan. 16: Spike Jones Liner Notes (1994) -- Jan 17 - Jan. 23: Lotion Liner Notes (1995) -- Jan. 24 - Feb. 6: Intro to Stone Junction (1997) -- Kurt-Werner Poertner Feb. 7 - Feb. 20: Intro to 1984 (2003) -- Joseph Tracy -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Dedalus204 at comcast.net Sat Aug 14 19:50:19 2004 From: Dedalus204 at comcast.net (Tim Strzechowski) Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2004 19:50:19 -0500 Subject: GR III Final Six Sign-Up List References: <81.12991f22.2e4886b8@aol.com> Message-ID: <002201c48261$d7c33670$15830f18@adminln4hlpboo> Still willing, but with no idea of WHEN or WHAT pages based on this sign-up, I'm unable to commit to anything more than to say I'm interested. Like Dave Monroe, I'd like to see how this is gonna fly before I commit time and energy. By the way, got back from my boston trip this afternoon and I just want to say that Boston is the Land of Beautiful Women. holy moly! If you would like to get GRRRR started, sign up as evidence of your willingness to host, and reply back to the P-list. 1- [...] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From brook7 at earthlink.net Sat Aug 14 20:35:03 2004 From: brook7 at earthlink.net (Joseph Tracy) Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2004 21:35:03 -0400 Subject: m&m's in V Message-ID: <410-2200480151353406@earthlink.net> ----- Original Message ----- From: Joseph Tracy To: pynchon-l Sent: 8/8/2004 11:26:16 PM Subject: m&m's in V posted this before but added another question or2. hoping for response on last one in particular. Notes on 1st reading of Mortality and Mercy in Venice Leaving the party before the fun begins. So Siegel, pursuing nice jewish girl (who is also member WSC) in belated accord with gentile mother's advice gets appointed father confessor at whole sick crew party (early version WSC)in Washington D.C. Pig fetus is tacked to door( this ain't the innocent lambs blood that might ward off the Angelo of death, that host will be making his exodus in the nick of time. The party is full of weirdish cosmopolitans looking for cheap good time,booze, infatuation, confession, absolution, ... and a dark skinned primitive ojibwe( with unlikely name of Irving Loon...Washington Irving, or crazy as a...?) brought into D.C as trophy sex toy, curiosity . He seems locked in silent estrangement, but is released by vocalization of demonic/ angelic word/spirit "Windigo". Having offered questionable absolution to 2 women and summoned the angel of death, the judaeo -christian, freudian/ jesuit little machiavel, prophet/priest/schmuck Cleanth Siegel lets his people( himself) go before the shooting starts. Is Artist's(Shakespeare's) ,Pynchon's role to play god and bring divine judgement on unworthy brought into question or confirmed? Is Lucy/light boringly innocent or boringly guilty, laden with sin or laden only with useless knowledge, last glimmer of light or labyrinth leading to Minotaur?Lucifer or Margarethe. Each encounter similarly filtered through Siegel's 3rd person omniscient confessor role and more boringly predictable than last until Windigo released. These people were self absorbed but they had nothing on Siegel. I would like to hear a bit of discussion of the pig thing in P's writing. Joseph Tracy brook7 at earthlink.net Why Wait? Move to EarthLink. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From keithsz at sbcglobal.net Sat Aug 14 21:11:06 2004 From: keithsz at sbcglobal.net (Keith McMullen) Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2004 19:11:06 -0700 Subject: GR III Final Six Sign-Up List In-Reply-To: <002201c48261$d7c33670$15830f18@adminln4hlpboo> References: <81.12991f22.2e4886b8@aol.com> <002201c48261$d7c33670$15830f18@adminln4hlpboo> Message-ID: <5D8ECAE6-EE60-11D8-994F-000A95BDCA92@sbcglobal.net> >>>I'd like to see how this is gonna fly before I commit time and energy.<<< Cart before the horse, that.   From Dedalus204 at comcast.net Sat Aug 14 21:46:31 2004 From: Dedalus204 at comcast.net (Tim Strzechowski) Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2004 21:46:31 -0500 Subject: GR III Final Six Sign-Up List References: <81.12991f22.2e4886b8@aol.com> <002201c48261$d7c33670$15830f18@adminln4hlpboo> <5D8ECAE6-EE60-11D8-994F-000A95BDCA92@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <000701c48272$1318c6d0$15830f18@adminln4hlpboo> Really? This proposed group read format is somewhat of a departure from what we've done before, at least from how Terrance has pitched it. I'd like to SEE a hosting stint modeled and know something of how much a hosting stint will cover (pages) before I obligate myself to a) what section I wish to host, and b) when hosting will not impede on my real-life obligations. It's a fair approach, I'd say. > > Cart before the horse, that. > > From keithsz at sbcglobal.net Sat Aug 14 21:52:02 2004 From: keithsz at sbcglobal.net (Keith McMullen) Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2004 19:52:02 -0700 Subject: GR III Final Six Sign-Up List In-Reply-To: <000701c48272$1318c6d0$15830f18@adminln4hlpboo> References: <81.12991f22.2e4886b8@aol.com> <002201c48261$d7c33670$15830f18@adminln4hlpboo> <5D8ECAE6-EE60-11D8-994F-000A95BDCA92@sbcglobal.net> <000701c48272$1318c6d0$15830f18@adminln4hlpboo> Message-ID: <15865C68-EE66-11D8-994F-000A95BDCA92@sbcglobal.net> >>>It's a fair approach, I'd say.<<< But, it ignores the documented history of how things go on this list. From lycidas2 at earthlink.net Sat Aug 14 22:35:11 2004 From: lycidas2 at earthlink.net (Terrance) Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2004 23:35:11 -0400 Subject: LPPM MMV "Fisher of Souls" References: <20040815001930.83517.qmail@web50702.mail.yahoo.com> <4EAA24B3-EE51-11D8-994F-000A95BDCA92@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <411ED9EF.5F6529A1@earthlink.net> http://www.public.asu.edu/~jacquies/fisherman.html Keith McMullen wrote: > > >>>Ah, thank you. I didn't even take the simple step > there of searching "fisher of souls."<<< > > There are advantages to being a simple man. > From lycidas2 at earthlink.net Sat Aug 14 23:48:30 2004 From: lycidas2 at earthlink.net (Terrance) Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2004 00:48:30 -0400 Subject: LPPM MMV "Fisher of Souls" Apostle Of the Indians References: <20040815001930.83517.qmail@web50702.mail.yahoo.com> <4EAA24B3-EE51-11D8-994F-000A95BDCA92@sbcglobal.net> <411ED9EF.5F6529A1@earthlink.net> <8BC35D3E-EE70-11D8-994F-000A95BDCA92@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <411EEB1E.99A7CB73@earthlink.net> The irony here is typical of Pynchon's allusive parables. A Grimm parable, there is no grace, not happiness, no peace, no trembling with the body of God on the tongue. -- Chapter 3, Portrait of an Artist You are all familiar with the story of the life of saint Francis Xavier, I suppose, the patron of your college. He came of an old and illustrious Spanish family and you remember that he was one of the first followers of saint Ignatius. They met in Paris where Francis Xavier was professor of philosophy at the university. This young and brilliant nobleman and man of letters entered heart and soul into the ideas of our glorious founder and you know that he, at his own desire, was sent by saint Ignatius to preach to the Indians. He is called, as you know, the apostle of the Indies. He went from country to country in the east, from Africa to India, from India to Japan, baptizing the people. He is said to have baptized as many as ten thousand idolaters in one month. It is said that his right arm had grown powerless from having been raised so often over the heads of those whom he baptized. He wished then to go to China to win still more souls for God but he died of fever on the island of Sancian. A great saint, saint Francis Xavier! A great soldier of God! The rector paused and then, shaking his clasped hands before him, went on: -- He had the faith in him that moves mountains. Ten thousand souls won for God in a single month! That is a true conqueror, true to the motto of our order: ad majorem Dei gloriam! A saint who has great power in heaven, remember: power to intercede for us in our grief; power to obtain whatever we pray for if it be for the good of our souls; power above all to obtain for us the grace to repent if we be in sin. A great saint, saint Francis Xavier! A great fisher of souls! From jbor at bigpond.com Sun Aug 15 04:59:27 2004 From: jbor at bigpond.com (jbor) Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2004 19:59:27 +1000 Subject: MMV Message-ID: Context: 'Mortality and Mercy in Vienna', Pynchon's second published story, appeared in _Epoch_ in Spring 1959. Subsequently Pynchon enrolled in a creative writing class at Cornell University taught by the journal's editor, Baxter Hathaway (cf. SL: 17). So low is Pynchon's regard for it that the story is not mentioned -- let alone included -- in the collection of his early stories published as _Slow Learner_ (1984). Pynchon describes the stories that have been included in that collection as "pretentious, goofy and ill-considered" (4); it's safe to say that he believed that 'MMV' is even worse. Setting: Contemporary. The events take place at a party in a Washington apartment. Plot: Cleanth Siegel, the protagonist and source of narrative agency, arrives alone and too early at the apartment and is immediately and opportunistically installed as replacement host by David Lupescu. His role as described by Lupescu is threefold: "receiver of guests", "enemy", and God-surrogate. As the partygoers arrive Siegel observes their antics and listens to their petty sagas of romance and jealousy in the makeshift bedroom confessional. When he realises that Irving Loon, a psychotic Ojibwa, is about to launch into a vengeful frenzy of slaughter and cannibalism, he slips away and leaves the partygoers to their fate. Characters: Siegel is 30 years old and just returned from a diplomatic assignment in Europe after stints in the army and college. He is in the throes of an early mid-life crisis, feels as though he is "out of touch" with this Washington set, and is eager to get back together with his old girlfriend, Rachel. Rachel was supposed to meet Siegel at the party but she is unavoidably detained, and unable to attend after all. Lupescu is Siegel's "döppelganger". He is who Siegel would have become had he stayed and not gone to Europe. Where Siegel is clearly near enough to a Pynchonian alter-ego, his fictional college roommate, Grossman, is perhaps based on Jules Siegel. Harvey Duckworth seems to be a precursor of Seaman Pig Bodine. Lucy, Debby Considine, Paul Brennan et al. are thoroughly selfish, self-involved and insensitive. Irving Loon is an Ojibwa Indian and Debbie Considine's latest "trophy". Over the past few days he has gradually worked himself into a state of paranoid psychosis known as "the Windigo". Theme: Like much of Pynchon's work the story centres on a clash of cultures and belief systems, both those various cultural and family heritages which serve to make up an individual and the different worldviews which compete or co-exist within a society. No one religion or perspective is privileged over any other as "the One True Faith" in the story, though there is a sense of smug self-satisfaction in the way that Pynchon has Siegel leave the shallow and selfish pseudo-bohemians to their supposed just deserts at the close. Comment: With its ostentatious and often gratuitous references to Shakespeare, the Bible and gnostic Apocrypha, Jewish funeral traditions and Catholic church rituals, bullfighting, Dada, Goethe, Eliot, Conrad, Albertus Magnus, Santayana, Gaugin, foreign language phrases, Ojibwa culture and psychopathology, and more, the story suffers from precisely the same pretentiousness that it satirises in the shape of the partygoers babbling on about "Zen", "San Francisco" and "Wittgenstein" -- perhaps self-consciously and self-parodically, though, if so, not overtly enough. It's clear that Pynchon identifies with Siegel and is distancing himself from the pseudo-bohemian partygoers, but what is particularly jejune is the way the narrative ultimately resolves itself in a blood-bath: it's a species of that characteristic and supposedly shocking "and then the world exploded" climax ending written by barely-pubescent prodigies ("a pose of ... somber glee at any idea of mass destruction or decline" as he describes it in SL: 13). The partygoers ("The Group") in this story are of a kind with those at Meatball Mulligan's lease-breaking party in 'Entropy', and a prototype of the Whole Sick Crew in _V._, although Pynchon is far less judgemental and hostile towards the WSC, and their characterisations are much more rounded than those of the pseudo-bohemians in 'MMV'. Cleanth Siegel is one of Pynchon's hopelessly self-conscious and put-upon "schlemiel" characters, like Lardass Levine in 'The Small Rain' and Dennis Flange in 'Low-Lands', and an early incarnation of Benny Profane and Tyrone Slothrop, and perhaps even Charles Mason. Rachel surfaces as Rachel Owlglass in _V._ best From ottosell at yahoo.de Sun Aug 15 11:01:53 2004 From: ottosell at yahoo.de (Otto) Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2004 18:01:53 +0200 Subject: LPPM MMV "Zeit the Doctor" References: <1092253238.411a7637017cb@mail3.buffalo.edu> Message-ID: <003f01c482e1$30112920$0101a8c0@i7t2q2> ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Wednesday, August 11, 2004 9:40 PM Subject: Re: LPPM MMV "Zeit the Doctor" > "Dave Monroe wrote: > "... he still remembered Miriam's husband cursing > Zeit the Doctor ..." (MMV, p. 1) > > Zeit the Doctor = time heals all wounds? > > See VL page 208" > > Cute, yes, but I suspect quite the opposite: Zeit's inability to > successfully intervene with the progress of Miriam's cancer is just > the first clue that the story suggests time has a far lesser ability > to effectuate the process of healing than the above platitude would > have us believe. > This is exactly the way I would expect Pynchon to deal with "the above platitude." > > However, I think there is something interesting going on with the > conflation of time with 'doctoring' that is not necessarily 'healing': > the narrator states earlier on that Siegel has spent time "wondering > why, in his first days with the Commission, he should have ever > regarded himself as any kind of healer when he had always known that > for a healer -- a prophet actually, because if you cared about it at > all you had to be both -- there is no question of balance sheets or > legal complexity, and the minute you become involved with anything > like that you are something less; a doctor, or a fortune-teller." > Interesting juxtaposition, isn't it? With a clear hierarchy. healer vs doctor prophet vs fortune-teller > > After you pointed that out, I noticed that time/times/Zeit makes > nineteen appearances in the text, often in close proximity to one > another. In addition, the sense in which it is used changes > frequently -- notably, when referring to the Siegel, it generally > refers to individual circumstances: "There had been times -- during > the past year, in the Avenue Kleber or the Viale delle Terme di > Caracalla -- where there had been a brief case where the fifth was > now, clutched under the same tweed-clad arm against rain or a deadline > or some bureaucratic necessity. And most of these times...", whereas > when referring to the Ojibway, 'times' delineates > collective/social/cultural designations: "such paranoid tendencies are > further intensified bv the highly competitive life of the summer > villages at ricing and berry-picking time..." Further, in the action > of the story, Siegel is somewhat lost to time: he's unsure when to > show up, exactly; his early arrival creates the circumstances that > allow him to gather enough information to avoid the carnage; when he > realizes what time is (eleven o'clock) he abandons his role of > father/confessor and walks outside, a form of "deliverance" that > Lupescu told Siegel would come, that it was "just a matter of time" > (though I think Lupescu is somewhat wrong: he's more telling fortune > than being prophetic)... > > Finally, in a great big stretch of critical license, I noted that time > is actually at the center of the word sentiment, quite literally: > another word of great import to the tale. > The story begins with an information about the time, like the word order requires: time info before place info. When time and a clash of cultures are topics one has to ask if it's linear or cyclical time. It's clear that the Windigo psychosis is the result of constant cyclical repetitions of natural phenomena bringing hardship to the Ojibwa, thus they are exposed to a cyclical time that allows no development or escape but (inevitably?) leads to that kind of mass-psychosis. Linear time is a product of the Enlightenment. But the "whole sick crew" at the party is hardly grown-up, let alone enlightened. One only has to compare what is told about the Ojibwa by Debby Considine -- "At ricing time, you see, all the families are together, everyone happy, Togetherness in Ojibwa land. Blasts, brawls, sex orgies, community sings, puberty rituals. All kinds of wonderful local color to fill up notebook after notebook with." -- and what Siegel knows about it from Professor Mitchell: "You must remember that this group lives forever at the brink of starvation," Mitchell said in that deprecating, apologetic tone which implied that for him all cultures were equally mad; it was only the form that differed, never the content. "It has been said that the Ojibwa ethos is saturated with anxiety," and simultaneously 50 pens copied the sentence verbatim. "The Ojibwa are trained, from childhood, to starve; the male child's entire upbringing is dedicated to a single goal: that of becoming a great hunter. Emphasis is on isolation, self-sufficiency. There is no sentimentality among the Ojibwa. It is an austere and bleak existence they lead, always one step away from death." > Sorry about the length, but I get bored at work. Anyhow, I was > interested in what you all thought about this: I have a crackpot > theory of my own, sort of, but would love some input. > > Cheers, > Chris I very much liked it, no excuse necessary I'd say. Otto From Dedalus204 at comcast.net Sun Aug 15 13:06:16 2004 From: Dedalus204 at comcast.net (Tim Strzechowski) Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2004 13:06:16 -0500 Subject: GR III Message-ID: <000c01c482f2$909e81a0$15830f18@adminln4hlpboo> When is the GR III going to begin? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From brook7 at earthlink.net Sun Aug 15 18:06:50 2004 From: brook7 at earthlink.net (Joseph Tracy) Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2004 19:06:50 -0400 Subject: m&m's in V Message-ID: <410-22004801523650734@earthlink.net> I begin to think this story is more intriguing for which qualities endure in his later work, than for its own merit. 1)The overall moral context seems like a reworked puritanism ,2) the protagonist is difficult to sympathize with,3) the symbolic exploitation of tribal humans is the ground of western decadence, and comfort along with its troubled conscience, 4) the pig is a mascot for the dark unruly appetite driven underbelly of western order, 5) the importance of digression 6) the importance of names 7) the WSC as a microcosm of dangerous chaotic, culturally aberrant, disaffected modes of interaction 8) capital V in the title 9) paranoia about role and identity. 10)There is also something about the way the protagonist accumulates layers of priestly significance which reminds me of GR. I agree with jbor that the bloodbath is a juvenile device but there are some characters and themes which are revisited with only minor changes to their fundamental role in Pynchon's imagination, though each is taken up by the mature writer in much greater depth and complexity. I think it also fails as a story because in a story laden with moral symbolism there is no moral reason for Siegels survival. If this is intentional the story becomes more interesting , but he fails to convince me it is intentional. Joseph Tracy brook7 at earthlink.net Why Wait? Move to EarthLink. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From joe at barrera.org Sun Aug 15 20:12:29 2004 From: joe at barrera.org (Joseph S. Barrera III) Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2004 18:12:29 -0700 Subject: It is essentially a modern version of the German V2 rocket... Message-ID: <412009FD.8040705@barrera.org> Rainbows never die -------- Original Message -------- Subject: Canadian Arrow Completes Drop Test Date: 15 Aug 2004 22:26:02 -0000 From: brian-slashdotnews at hyperreal.org To: slashdotnews at hyperreal.org Link: http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=04/08/15/1723259 Posted by: michael, on 2004-08-15 20:15:00 from the look-out-below,-eh dept. [1]hpulley writes "The Canadian press is reporting that X-Prize entrant [2]the Canadian Arrow [3]made its first successful crew compartment drop test on Saturday. It is essentially a modern version of the [4]German V2 rocket. This test was just a drop of the crew compartment to test the parachutes. Next comes a launch abort test to see if the crew can be safely sent away from the vehicle. No word yet on when they might launch the consecutive flights in two-week turnaround for the prize. Fellow Canadian entrant the da Vinci Project will [5]try to launch October 2nd. In the fall, venerable model company [6]Estes Rockets will have a new model of the [7]Canadian Arrow along with models of other entrants like the [8]Rubicon." Oddly enough, I saw the crew compartment being driven around in Toronto on Saturday morning (towed behind a white pickup truck), but I didn't know what they were up to. IFRAME: [9]pos6 References 1. mailto:hpulley4 at nOspaM.yahoo.com 2. http://www.canadianarrow.com/ 3. http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Space/2004/08/14/583240-cp.html 4. http://www.v2rocket.com/ 5. http://www.davinciproject.com/beta/index.html 6. http://www.estesrockets.com/ 7. http://www.estesrockets.com/canadian_arrow185.html 8. http://www.estesrockets.com/rubicon187.html 9. http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_id=4780&alloc_id=10190&site_id=1&request_id=705897 -- I heard Woodrow Wilson's guns I heard them in the harbor Saying, Veracruz is dying From joe at barrera.org Sun Aug 15 20:16:09 2004 From: joe at barrera.org (Joseph S. Barrera III) Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2004 18:16:09 -0700 Subject: GR III In-Reply-To: <000c01c482f2$909e81a0$15830f18@adminln4hlpboo> References: <000c01c482f2$909e81a0$15830f18@adminln4hlpboo> Message-ID: <41200AD9.1040600@barrera.org> Tim Strzechowski wrote: > When is the GR III going to begin? I can do the first one, if only to get things started. Perhaps everything up to: "Tony Bloat's on his lunch hour, but lunch today'll be, ack...." In fact if GR III is not otherwise going to take off, then I can take charge. I don't care how many people participate. I'll read the book & post my thoughts and anyone else is welcome to join in, or not. - Joe -- I heard Woodrow Wilson's guns I heard them in the harbor Saying, Veracruz is dying From pynchonoid at yahoo.com Sun Aug 15 20:43:41 2004 From: pynchonoid at yahoo.com (pynchonoid) Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2004 18:43:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: m&m's in V In-Reply-To: <410-22004801523650734@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <20040816014341.98858.qmail@web40704.mail.yahoo.com> > the bloodbath is a juvenile > device How does it differ from GR's ending? ===== http://pynchonoid.org "everything connects" __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Get it on your mobile phone. http://mobile.yahoo.com/maildemo From ottosell at yahoo.de Sun Aug 15 21:16:38 2004 From: ottosell at yahoo.de (Otto) Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 04:16:38 +0200 Subject: m&m's in V References: <20040816014341.98858.qmail@web40704.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <007601c48337$114522c0$0101a8c0@i7t2q2> ----- Original Message ----- From: "pynchonoid" To: Sent: Monday, August 16, 2004 3:43 AM Subject: Re: m&m's in V > > > the bloodbath is a juvenile > > device > > How does it differ from GR's ending? > The one who is, more or less, responsible, survives what he has initiated. I my reading of GR no one is saved in the end. Otto From joe at barrera.org Sun Aug 15 21:31:49 2004 From: joe at barrera.org (Joseph S. Barrera III) Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2004 19:31:49 -0700 Subject: Bananas ahead of their time Message-ID: <41201C95.1090509@barrera.org> japantoday > crime Osaka port firm falsified arrival day of banana shipments Sunday, August 15, 2004 at 07:48 JST OSAKA — A semipublic company handling cargo at Osaka port that earlier admitted falsifying the origins of imported vegetables also falsified the arrival day of banana shipments from 2001, company officials said Saturday. Osaka Port Terminal Co, in which the city of Osaka has a 50.2 percent stake, faked the date it received bananas from Latin America to make them look fresher than they were, they said. Such falsification began about three years ago at the instruction of a Tokyo-based importer and invoices were also falsified, according to the officials. (Kyodo News) From isread at btopenworld.com Mon Aug 16 03:05:53 2004 From: isread at btopenworld.com (Paul Nightingale) Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 09:05:53 +0100 Subject: m&m's in v Message-ID: <000201c48367$dd596530$0201a8c0@Foucault> Pynchon c.1959 wasn't the writer he became c.1973 or c.1997? Joseph separates qualities that endure in later work from MMIV's "own merit". This is more thoughtful than the intolerant dismissal of MMIV offered elsewhere; yet still begs the question as to how we isolate MMIV's "own merit" and put it, so to speak, into solitary confinement to await sentencing. We're interested in this story because Pynchon wrote it (although for some this is apparently an excellent reason to dismiss it without bothering to read it). And yes, we can attempt to track Pynchon's development as a writer (eg extrapolating from MMIV to GR--or as I did earlier to VL's opening). We might also regard the story in its own right as an exercise in narrative. Siegel is juxtaposed to three other (male) characters: Lupescu (doppelganger), Grossmann (roommate) and Irving Loon (outsider) all function as alternates. He is also juxtaposed to three female characters: Rachel and the two confessees, Lucy and Debbie, with all of whom he is given a relationship. Lupescu is present in the story's 'here-&-now' whereas Grossmann is conjured up by Siegel's memories; Lupescu is therefore related to Siegel in space, Grossmann in time. Irving Loon is 'here' as opposed to 'there' (ie in Washington, not Ontario); as well as 'present' as opposed to 'absent', which means the narrative offers him as an alternative to Lupescu also (and Siegel first sees Irving in relation to the pig foetus). Irving also challenges the conventional separation of narrative time and narrative space, given that 'here-not-there' exposes conflict between linear and cyclical times. Like Grossmann, Rachel belongs to 'the past'; like Lupescu, she is absent from the party (the absence of each causing Siegel some anxiety). Lucy substitutes for Rachel when offering to sleep with Siegel; Debbie then substitutes for Lucy-as-confessee. The narrative space occupied by females, therefore, differs from that occupied by males. One reading of this is to say that Siegel (as protagonist) is himself male and therefore (as the story's organising force) has a different relationship to other (male and female) characters. However, if we consider Siegel as protagonist, we might notice that he is quite inactive--as a term, preferable to passive for two reasons: 1. Siegel's narrative function is to stand opposite the actions of others--Rachel abandons him; ditto Lupescu, who leaves him in charge; while Lucy and Debbie insist that he listen to them, etc. Moreover, his departure at the end allows him to avoid confronting Irving Loon (a form of activity). As nominal protagonist, therefore, Siegel is himself curiously absent (ie he doesn't do very much to move the narrative forward). 2. Siegel's narrative function is to invoke storytelling that effectively sidetracks, or marginalises, any account that might otherwise be given of the party. His own retrospective accounts (of his time in Europe, of Grossmann) are juxtaposed to Rachel's explanation of her no-show and then the confessions by Lucy and Debbie--all of which confirm that the action is elsewhere (making Siegel's timely departure at the end far from an arbitrary gesture). Hence the story is full of storytelling but very little action (if by 'action' we mean 'plot' and 'what happens'). Robert Holton's essay in Reading from the Margins concludes by judging the early stories (including MMIV) "fascinating both as records of Pynchon's evolving cultural awareness and as documents of their time, reflecting the controversy that surrounded questions of conformism and alienation just before new analyses of race and gender radically revised the very nature of resistance ..." ("'Closed Circuit': The White Male Predicament in Pynchon's Early Stories"). I would suggest that P's treatment of his white male protagonist in MMIV indicates an awareness that the "new analyses" will require different ways of telling. From ottosell at yahoo.de Mon Aug 16 10:08:58 2004 From: ottosell at yahoo.de (Otto) Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 17:08:58 +0200 Subject: MMV Message-ID: <003c01c483a2$f5c9cc00$0101a8c0@i7t2q2> Has anybody access to www.highbeam.com ? "Thomas Pynchon's "Mortality and Mercy in Vienna" ends with the aptly named Irving Loon gunning down unsuspecting victims at a Washington party. Cleanth Siegel, the protagonist, anticipates this brutal attack but fails to warn the other guests. Instead, he walks blithely out of the apartment "whistling," good-naturedly sealing the fate of those who remain behind (201). Siegel's reaction to the massacre is as disturbing as his refusal to stop it: "At the first floor landing," Siegel "heard the first screams, the pounding of footsteps, the smashing of glass. He shrugged" (201). ..." Giving Destruction a Name and a Face: Thomas Pynchon's "Mortality and Mercy in Vienna".(Critical Essay) Studies in Short Fiction; January 1, 1998; King, Vincent http://www.highbeam.com/library/doc1.asp?DOCID=1G1:74440216&num=2 Lot of Critique-articles on that website. From ottosell at yahoo.de Mon Aug 16 10:09:11 2004 From: ottosell at yahoo.de (Otto) Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 17:09:11 +0200 Subject: From Revolution to Reconstruction Message-ID: <003d01c483a2$fdcfa140$0101a8c0@i7t2q2> A Hypertext on American History from the colonial period until Modern Times Department of Humanities Computing, University of Groningen, The Netherlands The main body of this hypertext project, which was started in 1994, comes from a number of USIA-publications: An Outline of American History, An Outline of the American Economy, An Outline of American Government, and An Outline of American Literature. The text of these Outlines has not been changed, but they have been enriched with hypertext-links to relevant documents, original essays, other Internet sites, and to other Outlines. http://odur.let.rug.nl/~usa/index.htm An Outline of American Literature by Kathryn VanSpanckeren American Prose Since 1945: Realism and Experimentation: Thomas Pynchon (1937- ) http://odur.let.rug.nl/~usa/LIT/pynchon.htm From glenn_scheper at earthlink.net Mon Aug 16 10:12:55 2004 From: glenn_scheper at earthlink.net (Glenn Scheper) Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 08:12:55 -0700 (GMT-07:00) Subject: LPPM MMV "Mon Semblable, Mon Frere" Message-ID: <21214450.1092669176089.JavaMail.root@bigbird.psp.pas.earthlink.net> 1. > the pig is a mascot for the dark unruly ... 2. > there is no moral reason for Siegels survival. 3. > he abandons his role of father/confessor > and walks outside, a form of "deliverance" The fetus in an arch recalls arcane, both arch and hidden, and the keystone (cornerstone) atop it, which is autofellatio, unlocking all symbols, previously on a right hand, and mirroring spirits. Baudelaire is such a one as I, and Eliot too. To a metamophosized son of god, knowing all things, their pale shade in religion is not the truth. But can you tell them so? No, consider Cassiopeia. surf on hypocrite reader double brother, winnowed to contain baudelaire winnowed to contain "hypocrite reader" I have to read them all later... Final url is the very text: http://united-states.asinah.net/american-encyclopedia/wikipedia/c/ch/charles_pierre_baudelaire.html Charles-Pierre Baudelaire Encyclopedia : Maps - Weather - Travel - History - Economy - Government - Politics http://poetrytodayonline.com/JAN99cp.html Poetry Today Online : Classic Poets: Charles Baudelaire http://tom.buzzword.com/faq Au lecteur http://www.poetrytodayonline.com/JAN99cp.html Poetry Today Online : Classic Poets: Charles Baudelaire http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Baudelaire Charles Baudelaire - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia http://www.wordiq.com/definition/Charles-Pierre_Baudelaire Definition of Charles Baudelaire - wordIQ Dictionary and Encyclopedia http://www.babelguides.com/view/work/2619 Babelguides: The Fall http://www.biblion.com/litweb/biogs/baudelaire_charles.html LitWeb.net http://www.fleursdumal.org/poem/099 Au Lecteur by Charles Baudelaire http://www.kirjasto.sci.fi/baudelai.htm Charles Baudelaire http://www.brainyencyclopedia.com/encyclopedia/c/ch/charles_pierre_baudelaire.html Charles-Pierre Baudelaire http://www.ezresult.com/article/Charles_Baudelaire Charles-Pierre Baudelaire - Articles and Information http://www.free-essays-term-papers.com/baudelaire%2Ccharles.htm Charles Baudelaire http://www.free-essays-term-papers.com/baudelaire,charles.htm Charles Baudelaire http://universosdesfeitos.weblog.com.pt/arquivo/066215.html universos desfeitos: B de Baudelaire (1) http://www.angelfire.com/ct/edarling/Fleurs.html This is the Title/Header http://www.jamesrmaclean.com/archives/000246.html Hobson's Choice: The Wasteland http://homepages.westminster.org.uk/art_history/Baudelaire.htm Baudelaire http://www.poetryconnection.net/poets/Charles_Baudelaire Charles Baudelaire - Poems and Biography by PoetryConnection.net http://userpage.fu-berlin.de/~tanguay/book66.htm The Waste Land, Online Reading Club Book Reviews http://www.english.eku.edu/Pellegrino/worldpoetry/baudelaire.htm Charles Baudelaire Poetry http://www.angelfire.com/ego/zenexp/lektur3.html No title http://faculty.dwc.edu/wellman/Charles_Baudelaire.html Charles Baudelaire http://cfcc.net/faculty/ghurley/262/reader/ English 262: To the Reader http://www.glaced.digitalspace.net/cgi-bin/baudelaire/tothereader.html To The Reader. Baudelaire -The Poetry Searcher http://www.seorf.ohiou.edu/~ac428/poem.html No title Yours truly, Glenn Scheper http://home.earthlink.net/~glenn_scheper/ glenn_scheper + at + earthlink.net Copyleft(!) Forward freely. From malignd at yahoo.com Mon Aug 16 10:20:38 2004 From: malignd at yahoo.com (Malignd) Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 08:20:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: LPPM MMV "Siegel" In-Reply-To: <1092237930.10160.15.camel@localhost> Message-ID: <20040816152038.46560.qmail@web12003.mail.yahoo.com> <> ... or very well may not have read. Even so, it's possible, therefore possibly probable, therefore possibly, probably all but certain. As for the Siegel business, if Pynchon chose the name because it was his roommate's (possible), the only interesting question is what might that signify, if anything? But the question's a dead end. In the movie Ransom, Gary Sinese's character at one point offers as an alias the name "Mr. Kinney." It happens that Sinese is good friends with the actor Terry Kinney with whom (and with Jeff Perry) he founded Steppenwolf Theater Company. So he calls himself Mr. Kinney. Or it's a coincidence. But, if the former, it's a fact that goes no further and means nothing in any context specific to the film. Once noted, it's trivial; twice noted, boring. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From monropolitan at yahoo.com Mon Aug 16 17:22:18 2004 From: monropolitan at yahoo.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 15:22:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: m&m's in V In-Reply-To: <410-22004801523650734@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <20040816222218.89445.qmail@web50710.mail.yahoo.com> I agree, and am back online, so ... --- Joseph Tracy wrote: > I begin to think this story is more intriguing for > which qualities endure in his later work, than for > its own merit.... __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From monropolitan at yahoo.com Mon Aug 16 17:44:56 2004 From: monropolitan at yahoo.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 15:44:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: LPPM MMV "Fisher of Souls" In-Reply-To: <0DA467F6-EE48-11D8-994F-000A95BDCA92@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <20040816224457.95843.qmail@web50710.mail.yahoo.com> Fisher of Souls (The great). The devil. "I trust, young man, that neither idleness nor licentious pleasure .... the chief baits with which the great Fisher of souls conceals his hooks, are the causes of your declining the career to which I would incite you."�Sir W. Scott: The Monastery, chap. xi. http://www.bartleby.com/81/6499.html Thanks again, just catching up, so ... --- Keith McMullen wrote: > "fisher of souls" > > http://essenes.net/fisher1.html > > http://www.bartleby.com/81/6499.html __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From monropolitan at yahoo.com Mon Aug 16 19:28:10 2004 From: monropolitan at yahoo.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 17:28:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: LPPM MMV "The Girl Bohemian of the '40's" Message-ID: <20040817002810.1461.qmail@web50709.mail.yahoo.com> "... the girl, who was very young and had long black hair and big hoop earrings and was wearing a sweatshirt and levis--who seemed to Siegel a perfect parody of the girl bohemian of the '40's--stood up and looked at Siegel. 'I want to go to bed with you,' she intoned dramatically and all at once Siegel cheered up. He put the receiver back on the hook and smiled. 'I'm sorry,' he said suavely, 'but statutory rape and all that, you know. Can I get you a drink?'" [...] "'By the way,' she said, 'I'm Lucy.'" (MMV, p. 4) "the girl bohemian of the '40's" Main Entry: Bo�he�mi�an Pronunciation: -mE-&n Function: noun 1 a : a native or inhabitant of Bohemia b : the group of Czech dialects used in Bohemia 2 often not capitalized a : VAGABOND, WANDERER; especially : GYPSY b : a person (as a writer or an artist) living an unconventional life usually in a colony with others - bohemian adjective, often capitalized http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=bohemian Not, e.g., ... http://www.laurelandhardycentral.com/tbg.htm http://opera.stanford.edu/Puccini/LaBoheme/main.html http://home.earthlink.net/~markdlew/lib/bohgirl/index.htm http://www.willacather.org/TrollGarden/TheBohemianGirl.htm ... but, e.g., ... http://www.webster-dictionary.org/definition/Bohemianism ... but can anyone think of a good example, or, rather, a good exemplar, of what Pynchon is getting at here? Thanks ... "I'm Lucy" LUCY f Usage: English Pronounced: LOO-see English feminine form of LUCIUS LUCIUS m Usage: Ancient Roman, English Pronounced: LOO-shus Roman praenomen, or given name, which was derived from Latin lux "light".... http://www.behindthename.com/nm/l3.html Saint Lucy Feastday: December 13 Patron of Blindness Lucy's name means "light", with the same root as "lucid" which means "clear, radiant, understandable." Unfortunately for us, Lucy's history does not match her name. Shrouded in the darkness of time, all we really know for certain is that this brave woman who lived in Syracuse lost her life in the persecution of Christians in the early fourth century.... Her mother tried to arrange a marriage for her with a pagan. Lucy apparently knew that her mother would not be convinced by a young girl's vow so she devised a plan to convince her mother that Christ was a much more powerful partner for life. Through prayers at the tomb of Saint Agatha, her mother's long illness was cured miraculously. The grateful mother was now ready to listen to Lucy's desire to give her money to the poor and commit her life to God. Unfortunately ... the rejected bridegroom did not see the same light and he betrayed Lucy to the governor as a Christian. This governor tried to send her into prostitution but the guards who came to take her way found her stiff and heavy as a mountain. Finally she was killed.... Lucy's name is probably also connected to statues of Lucy holding a dish with two eyes on it. This refers to another legend in which Lucy's eyes were put out by Diocletian as part of his torture. The legend concludes with God restoring Lucy's eyes. Lucy's name also played a large part in naming Lucy as a patron saint of the blind and those with eye-trouble. http://www.catholic.org/saints/saint.php?saint_id=75 And see also, e.g., ... http://www.engl.virginia.edu/OE/aelfric/lucy.html __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From monropolitan at yahoo.com Mon Aug 16 19:49:26 2004 From: monropolitan at yahoo.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 17:49:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: LPPM MMV "Deeper Human Significance" Message-ID: <20040817004926.33888.qmail@web50705.mail.yahoo.com> "In the other room he heard what sounded like a chorus of roaring boys, chanting dirty limericks. The girl came in and said, 'My god, it's Brennan and his friends.' "'Oh goodo,' Siegel said. 'They seem to be in fine voice.' Indeed, they were. In his suddenly amiable state it seemed to Siegel that this account of the young fellow named Cheever who had an affair with a beaver took on Deeper Human Significance, was gilded with a certain transcendental light which reminded him of that final trio from Faust, where the golden stairs come down and Margarethe ascends to heaven. 'Really lovely,' he mused." (MMV, p. 4) "dirty limericks" A limerick is a short, often humorous and ribald poem developed to a very specific structure. Structure The rhyme scheme is usually aabba, with a very rigid meter. The first, second, and fifth lines are three metrical feet; the third and fourth two metrical feet. The rhythm can be called an anapestic foot, two short syllables and then a long, the reverse of dactyl rhythm. The first line often ends with a person's name and/or a location (geographical limericks). A true limerick is supposed to have a kind of twist to it. This may lie in the final line, or it may lie in the way the rhymes are often intentionally tortured, or both. Iambs are often substituted for an initial anapestic foot. http://www.webster-dictionary.org/definition/Limerick%20%28poetry%29 E.g., ... There was a young fellow named Cheever Who had an affair with a beaver ... John Cheever (1912-1982) American short story writer and novelist, called the "Chekhov of the suburbs". Cheever's main theme was the spiritual and emotional emptiness of life. He especially described the manners and morals of middle-class, suburban America, with an ironic humour which softened his basically dark vision.... [...] John Cheever was born in Quincy, Massachussetts. His father owned a shoe factory and was relatively wealthy until he lost his business in the 1929 stock market crash and deserted his family.... http://www.kirjasto.sci.fi/cheever.htm "that final trio from Faust" Faust (ii). Op�ra in five acts by Charles-Fran�ois Gounod to a libretto by Jules Barbier and Michel Carr� after Carr�s Faust et Marguerite and Johann Wolfgang von Goethe�s Faust, Part I (in the French translation by g�rard de Nerval); Paris, Th��tre Lyrique, 19 March 1859. [...] 5.iii The interior of a prison Marguerite has been incarcerated for infanticide, but through the offices of M�phistoph�l�s Faust has obtained the keys to her cell. Diminished 7ths resolving to 6�4 chords create an ecstatic atmosphere when Marguerite awakens to the sound of Faust�s voice. They sing a love duet (�Oui c�est toi je t�aime�) in which past moments of bliss are recalled musically in the transition between the first set of parallel strophes and the cabalette (the latter section, �Viens! viens! quittons ces lieux!�, appeared for the first time in Italian-language editions in 1864 and is absent from most French editions). Faust begs her to flee with him. M�phistoph�l�s suddenly appears and urges Faust and Marguerite to follow him. Marguerite resists and calls for divine protection, singing the wide-spanning heroic melody �Anges purs, anges radieux� in an ascending stepwise sequence. The goal of the sequence is the C major of the concluding apotheosis �Christ est ressuscite!� (recalling the tonality of Marguerite�s supplication in the church scene). Faust falls to his knees in prayer as Marguerite�s soul rises to heaven. http://www.operamusic.com/operamusic/faustgounod.html And see as well, e.g., ... http://www.charles-gounod.com/vi/oeuvres/operas/faust.htm __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From monropolitan at yahoo.com Mon Aug 16 19:53:50 2004 From: monropolitan at yahoo.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 17:53:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Physics Limericks Message-ID: <20040817005350.58465.qmail@web50703.mail.yahoo.com> Finalists and Winners of the First APS Physics Limerick Contest http://www.aps.org/apsnews/0397/11855.cfm Sumbmitted Limericks Archive http://www.aps.org/apsnews/limericks/archive.cfm Physics Limericks http://www.aps.org/apsnews/limericks.cfm __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail � Now with 25x more storage than before! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From monropolitan at yahoo.com Mon Aug 16 20:06:27 2004 From: monropolitan at yahoo.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 18:06:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: LPPM MMV "Cleanth" Message-ID: <20040817010627.76457.qmail@web50702.mail.yahoo.com> "'Hi,' Siegel said. 'My name is Cleanth but my friends call me Siegel, out of pity.'" (MMV, p. 4) Cleanth Cleanth Brooks (1906-1994) Biography Cleanth Brooks was born in Kentucky in 1906. He attended college at Vanderbilt, where he befriended and later wrote with with fellow Tennessee author Robert Penn Warren. Transferring to Tulane University, Brooks received a Rhodes scholarship which led him to England to continue his research in language. He began his teaching career in 1932 at Louisiana State University. In 1947, Brooks published his most famous book of criticism, The Well Wrought Urn, and also moved to Yale where he became a professor of rhetoric thirteen years later. In 1950, he and Warren published the classic Understanding Poetry: An Anthology for College Students. Though he wrote several critical studies on William Faulkner, Brooks was most widely known as the quintessential New Critic: his ideas, critical studies, and textbooks embodied everything that New Criticism stood for in practice and pedagogy. http://oneweb.utc.edu/~tnwriter/authors/brooks.c.html And see as well, e.g., ... http://www.bedfordstmartins.com/litlinks/critical/brooks.htm http://cc.cumberlandcollege.edu/acad/english/litcritweb/bios/cbrooks.htm Cleanthes (331-232 BCE) Cleanthes was a Stoic philosopher of Assus in Lydia, and a disciple of Zeno of Citium. After the death of Zeno he presided over his school. He was originally a wrestler, and in this capacity he visited Athens, where he became acquainted with philosophy. Although he possessed no more than four drachma, he was determined to put himself under the an eminent philosopher. His first master was Crates, the Academic. He afterward became Zeno's disciple and an advocate of his doctrines. By night he drew water as a common laborer in the public gardens so that he would have leisure to attend lectures in the daytime. The Athenian citizens observed that, although he appeared strong and healthy, he had no visible means of subsistence; they then summoned him before the Areopagas, according to the custom of the city, to give an account of his manner of living. He then produced the gardener for whom he drew water, and a woman for whom he ground meal, as witnesses to prove that he lived by the labor of his hands. The judges of the court were struck with such admiration of his conduct, that they ordered ten minae to be paid him out of the public treasury. Zeno, however, did not allow him to accept it. Antigonus afterward presented him with three thousand minae. From the manner in which this philosopher supported himself, he was called "the well drawer." For many years he was so poor that he was compelled to take notes on Zeno's lectures on shells and bones, since he could not afford to buy better materials. He remained, however, a pupil of Zeno for nineteen years. His natural faculties were slow. But resolution and perseverance enabled him to overcome all difficulties. At last he became so complete a master of Stoicism that he was perfectly qualified to succeed Zeno. His fellow disciples often ridiculed him for his dullness by calling him an ass. However, his answer was, that if he were an ass he was the better able to bear the weight of Zeno's doctrine. He wrote much, but none of his writings remain except a hymn to Jupiter. After his death, the Roman senate erected a statue in honor of him at Assus. It is said that he starved himself to death in his 99th year. http://www.utm.edu/research/iep/c/cleanthe.htm And see as well, e.g., ... http://www.archaeonia.com/philosophy/stoicism/cleanthes.htm Cleanthes' Hymn to Zeus http://www.geocities.com/WestHollywood/Heights/4617/stoic/zeus.html �Cleanth Siegel� � �Siegel's passivity in this story suggests the Greek stoic Cleanthes, Zeno's disciple.� Says Charles Hollander in Pynchon's Politics: The Presence of an Absence. �Siegel� is German for �seal�, and similar to �sigil� as well. Or it could be, you know, someone he knew. http://waste.org/mail/?list=pynchon-l&month=0303&msg=77296 Pynchon takes the title of his next story from Shakespeare's Measure for Measure.... It is the beginning of his second story, and Pynchon is again alluding to something (a hint, a clue) outside the text. The second clue is the name of the central character, who is identified only as Siegel for the first third of the story, until he finally introduces himself: "'My name is Cleanth but my friends call me Siegel, out of pity.'" The device of withholding the name creates suspense and calls attention to Cleanth as name; and Siegel's passivity in this story suggests the Greek stoic Cleanthes, Zeno's disciple. (Come to think of it, "Lardass" Levine was pretty stoical, and submissive, too). Pynchon could have named Siegel Angelo after his Shakespearean counterpart; but Cleanth weaves the thread of Stoicism into the tapestry. Stoicism is characterized by a belief in happiness through knowledge, a striving to regulate the passions, a seeking to remain equally unmoved by apparently joyful or calamitous events, a submissiveness to natural law, and a belief in an irresistible Providence. http://www.vheissu.org/art/art_eng_SL_hollander.htm#chap_7 http://www.vheissu.org/art/art_eng_SL_hollander.htm But why "out of pity"? Let me know ... __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail is new and improved - Check it out! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From monropolitan at yahoo.com Mon Aug 16 20:11:04 2004 From: monropolitan at yahoo.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 18:11:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: LPPM MMV "Peter Arno" Message-ID: <20040817011104.55441.qmail@web50706.mail.yahoo.com> "He remembered a Peter Arno cartoon in the New Yorker he had always liked, showing a girl in Apache costume, sitting on the lap of a depraved-looking Frenchman in a sidewalk cafe; and the girl's friend, obviously an American tourist, armed with camera, shoulder-bag and guidebook, saying, with a scandalized expression, 'But Mary Lou, you mean you're not going back to Bryn Mawr, ever?'" (MMV, pp. 4-5) Peter Arno (8/1/1904 - 22/2/1968, USA) New Yorker cartoonist Peter Arno may not have invented the single-speaker captioned cartoon, but he surely perfected it. He was about to abandon his ambition to be an artist for a musical career when he received a check for a drawing that he submitted to a new humor magazine, The New Yorker, that had debuted February 21, 1925. With the publication of this spot illustration on June 20, 1925, Arno began a 43-year association with Harold Ross's weekly. http://www.lambiek.net/arno_peter.htm Arno, Peter (�r�no) (KEY) , 1904�68, American cartoonist, b. New York City. Arno�s satirical cartoons appeared in the New Yorker magazine from 1925 until his death. He achieved a distinctive drawing style featuring heavily outlined figures. Notable among his urbane characterizations are the self-important executive and the generously endowed woman. His cartoons have been collected in Peter Arno�s Parade (1929), Peter Arno�s Hullabaloo (1930), Sizzling Platter (1949), and Lady in the Shower (1967). http://www.bartleby.com/65/ar/Arno-Pet.html The New Yorker http://www.newyorker.com/ http://www.cartoonbank.com/ That a real one? Can't stand 'em, so ... __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Get it on your mobile phone. http://mobile.yahoo.com/maildemo From Dedalus204 at comcast.net Mon Aug 16 22:11:17 2004 From: Dedalus204 at comcast.net (Tim Strzechowski) Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 22:11:17 -0500 Subject: LPPM MMV "Cleanth" References: <20040817010627.76457.qmail@web50702.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <001401c48407$ddfa4360$15830f18@adminln4hlpboo> > > But why "out of pity"? Let me know ... > > "Pity" presupposes that the subject in question has a character flaw that s/he underestimates, or perhaps is unaware of. The Aristotalean use of "pity and fear" in tragedy, of course, refers to the protagonist's inability to discern that which may/will cause a downfall (or be an undoing). Relevance?? >> "'Hi,' Siegel said. 'My name is Cleanth but my friends call me Siegel, out of >> pity.'" (MMV, p. 4) The suggestion here is that "Cleanth" is a name (identity? text?) that expresses TRUTH regarding this character, yet others feel the need to impose "Siegel" because they perceive a truth beyond that which the speaker does. The brilliant irony here, quite honestly, is that "Siegel" is the character through whom this is quoted ... and, even better, an author is the voice through whom "Siegel" speaks! From lycidas2 at earthlink.net Tue Aug 17 06:20:47 2004 From: lycidas2 at earthlink.net (Terrance) Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 07:20:47 -0400 Subject: LPPM MMV "Cleanth" References: <20040817010627.76457.qmail@web50702.mail.yahoo.com> <001401c48407$ddfa4360$15830f18@adminln4hlpboo> Message-ID: <4121EA0F.11377A93@earthlink.net> It's another complex and ironic allusion to Joyce's PA, specifically, Stephen Dedalus, protagonist of James Joyce's novel _A Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man_. Notice that the order is reversed. In other words, Stephen (Catholic, Christian, Martyr) is the given name of Joyce's protagonist and Dedalus (Daedalus, Greek, Inventor, builder of the labyrinth) is the surname. Although it is important to note that Stephen is also the son of Dedalus or Icarus. Siegel is the son of a Jew and a Catholic. It seems his mother quit the Roman church after refuting Aquinas (on some point about the Law of Nature and Justice) and named him Cleanth after the Greek stoic. See Ben Hur (novel and film, 1959) Gaspar is the son of Cleanthes. We have to know that Dedalus is called Stephen by his Mother and that his "friends" or school chums call him Dedalus, not for pity's sake, but to tease the sensitive artistic boy. Cleanth is sent to the party by his Mother. Ha Ha! Tommy, very good. http://oddhatter.net/writing/papers/stephen.html sending Stephen to the convent exposes him further to the hypocrisy that he will see in the priests at the convent and in Catholicism as a whole. Thus, they are saying good-bye to “Stephen”, the name rooted in religious tradition as he will become “Dedalus”, the man who seeks his own freedom. On the other hand, Stephen’s classmates call him “Dedalus”. Stephen is not one of “them”. Stephen is set aside as intellectual and moral – “Dedalus is a model youth. He doesn’t smoke and he doesn’t go to bazaars and he doesn’t flirt and he doesn’t damn anything or damn all (71).” Indeed, “Dedalus” is not one of the hypocrites. He is labelled as a “heretic” as he refuses to conform to ideals which are not his own (76). At first, he merely defends poets (i.e. Byron), but soon he is defending his entire way of life and his views thereof. “Dedalus” is the individual. Tim Strzechowski wrote: > > > > > But why "out of pity"? Let me know ... > > > > > > "Pity" presupposes that the subject in question has a character flaw that > s/he underestimates, or perhaps is unaware of. The Aristotalean use of > "pity and fear" in tragedy, of course, refers to the protagonist's inability > to discern that which may/will cause a downfall (or be an undoing). > Relevance?? > > >> "'Hi,' Siegel said. 'My name is Cleanth but my friends call me Siegel, > out of > >> pity.'" (MMV, p. 4) > > The suggestion here is that "Cleanth" is a name (identity? text?) that > expresses TRUTH regarding this character, yet others feel the need to impose > "Siegel" because they perceive a truth beyond that which the speaker does. > The brilliant irony here, quite honestly, is that "Siegel" is the character > through whom this is quoted ... and, even better, an author is the voice > through whom "Siegel" speaks! From sims at ezpzapps.com Tue Aug 17 06:40:03 2004 From: sims at ezpzapps.com (sims) Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 13:40:03 +0200 Subject: LPPM MMV "The Girl Bohemian of the '40's" Message-ID: Saint Lucy is a rather popular saint here in Malta by the way. Many houses/buildings in Valletta have a plaque near the front door that has a an image of a favorite saint and also the name of the house. Overlooking Saint Babara Bastions is one such house which has a very nice ceramic Saint Lucy plaque. This particular spot has perhaps the best view of the Three Cities from Valletta...it overlooks all of Grand Harbour. sims >Lucy's name is probably also connected to statues of >Lucy holding a dish with two eyes on it. This refers >to another legend in which Lucy's eyes were put out by >Diocletian as part of his torture. The legend >concludes with God restoring Lucy's eyes. From jbor at bigpond.com Tue Aug 17 08:02:58 2004 From: jbor at bigpond.com (jbor) Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 23:02:58 +1000 Subject: MMV: Conrad and Hemingway In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Intertextual elements The primary literary allusions in the story are to Conrad's _Heart of Darkness_ and, I suspect, to Hemingway's _The Sun Also Rises_ (or _Fiesta_). Pynchon, while showing off somewhat his own critical insights into these two novels, also appropriates imagery from both texts into his story in a thoroughgoing, though less-than-straightforward, way. Ten seconds after Lupescu leaves the apartment he pops his head back in the door again and announces "Mistah Kurtz -- he dead". Just before, in response to Siegel's bewildered inquiry -- "Wait a minute ... where the hell are you going?" -- Lupescu had announced that he was going to "[t]he outside ... out of the jungle". Later, during her "confession", Lucy tells Siegel that Lupescu was troubled and that he had been "going native". Pynchon telegraphs the analogy he is going to make later on -- Siegel replies: "That's a strange way to put it," Siegel said. After all, going native in Washington, D.C? In more exotic places, certainly, he had seen that. He remembered ... (And note how the narrative shifts into and out of Siegel's thought processes and point of view here, as it does also in the story's final sentences. The joke in the Peter Arno cartoon which Siegel recalls right after this is echoed ironically in the story of Irving Loon, and it's another take on or reversal of the "going native"/_Heart of Darkness_ theme, as also is the recount of Grossman's gradual Bostonisation.) Towards the end of the story Siegel is reminded of Lupescu's cryptic quips and Lucy's comment and he consciously reflects on the current situation being similar to the one described in Conrad's novel. Lupescu (and so, Siegel too) is identified with Kurtz, "possessed by the heart of a darkness". The "jungle" here is the apartment-confessional -- an "interior" with the same sort of psychological baggage attached to it as Conrad's "interior", but a million miles distant from it nevertheless -- and the pseudo-bohemians are the "gatherers" who plunder from Lupescu/Kurtz's leasehold to build their solipsistic "ivory towers". It's a bit naff but it's about the best passage in the story. It's a long time since I read the Hemingway novel but the stories of the romantic entanglements and boorish shenanigans which Siegel hears in 'MMV' read to me like a parody of Hemingway's characters and plot, and the bullfighting imagery and tensions between Jewish and Catholic, and American and European sensibilities are other aspects which seem as though they might have been lifted from _The Sun Also Rises_. Worth a look, anyway. In neither case is it a straight appropriation of the original texts: Pynchon is interpreting the two novels in and through his own text, parodically for the most part, and in doing so he is dialoguing with and critiquing Conrad's and Hemingway's worldviews. By contrast to these intertextual connections, Grossman taunting Siegel by calling him "Stephen" and Lupescu's "Mon semblable, mon frere" citation from _The Waste Land_ are little more than one-line throwaways. They seem intended to characterise Grossman on the one hand, and to consolidate the supposedly uncanny mirroring of Lupescu in Siegel on the other. best From profdavidray at yahoo.com Tue Aug 17 10:21:14 2004 From: profdavidray at yahoo.com (David Ray) Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 08:21:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Physics Limericks In-Reply-To: <20040817005350.58465.qmail@web50703.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20040817152114.46863.qmail@web41009.mail.yahoo.com> Dave Monroe -- Thx for the Physics Limerick Contest winners -- some are hilarious and quite wonderful Everyone -- Anyone have a current email address for Brian McCary, active on here esp in 1997 and 1998? --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tyronemullet at hotmail.com Tue Aug 17 19:26:23 2004 From: tyronemullet at hotmail.com (Steve Maas) Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 17:26:23 -0700 Subject: LPPM MMV "Cleanth" Message-ID: "Pity" presupposes that his friends call him Siegel, out of pity for his bizarre first name. Steve Maas TRP: >"'Hi,' Siegel said. 'My name is Cleanth but my friends call me Siegel, out >of pity.'" Dave Monroe: >But why "out of pity"? Let me know ... _________________________________________________________________ Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE! http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/ From monropolitan at yahoo.com Tue Aug 17 19:44:10 2004 From: monropolitan at yahoo.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 17:44:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: LPPM MMV "After that Night It Was All Downhill" Message-ID: <20040818004410.21786.qmail@web50701.mail.yahoo.com> "In the two semesters he spent at Harvard Siegel had witnessed the gradual degeneration of his roommate Grossmann, a proud and stubborn native of Chicago who denied the presence of any civilization outside of Cook County and for whom Boston was worse even than Oak Park, was in fact, a sort of apotheosis of the effete and the puritan. Grossmann had remained unmarred, majestically sneering, happy-go-lucky, until one Christmas eve he and Siegel and some friends and a group of Radcliffe girls had gone carolling on Beacon hill. "Whether it was the booze they had brought along or the fact that Grossmann had just finished reading not only Santayana's The Last Puritan but also a considerable amount of T. S. Eliot--and so might have been a little more susceptible to tradition in general and to Christmas eve on Beacon hill in particular --or merely the bothersome tendency Grossman had to get sentimental in the company of Radcliffe girls, he had still been touched enough to inform Siegel later on that night that maybe there were a few human beings in Boston after all. And this had been the first tiny rent in that Midwestern hauteur which he had carried up to now as a torero carries his cape; after that night it was all downhill." Cook County http://www.co.cook.il.us/ Oak Park Oak Park is located on Chicago's western border seven miles from the city's center. It is four and one half square miles in size and has a population of approximately fifty thousand residents. Oak Park is a residential town. It has no major industries. Most of its residents earn their living in other towns or in the city of Chicago. Oak Park has never viewed itself as an anonymous bedroom community however. From the beginning it took great pride in things that set it apart from other communities, especially the city of Chicago. "When the saloons stop and the church steeples begin" is the way one book describes entering Oak Park. Early Oak Park residents believed that theirs was a model community, a city on a hill, that served as a shining example for other communities to follow.... http://www.oppl.org/reference/oakparkhistory.htm And see as well ... http://oprf.com/history/excellence.html http://oprf.com/history/index.html http://oprf.com/ "one Christmas eve" Cf. ... "'Dada exhibit in Paris on Christmas eve, 1919'" (MMV, p. 3) http://waste.org/mail/?list=pynchon-l&month=0408&msg=92422 "Christmas Eve, 1955, Benny Profane, wearing black levis, suede jacket, sneakers and big cowboy hat, happened to pass through Norfolk, Virginia." (V., Ch. 1, p. 1) http://www.harperacademic.com/catalog/excerpt_xml.asp?isbn=0060930217 "Christmas. Bwweeeaaaagghh, clutching to his stomach." (GR, Pt. I, p. 125) "'Eeh ... it's been Christmas, hasn't it ...?'" (M&D, p. 302) "... all this whole Rioting, Baby-snatching, litigious Time, it has been Christmastide. Has Christmas come and gone and he's miss'd it in all the Commotion?" (M&D, p. 581) Radcliffe 1879--Visionary women and men, led by Elizabeth Cary Agassiz, create the "Harvard Annex" for women's instruction by the Harvard faculty. 1894--The Annex is chartered as Radcliffe College by the Commonwealth of Massachusetts. 1943--During World War II, Harvard and Radcliffe sign an agreement allowing women students into Harvard classrooms for the first time. http://www.radcliffe.edu/about/dates.php?PHPSESSID=6eb55e9beeb787973daab0d69d93de05 On October 1, 1999, Radcliffe College and Harvard University were officially merged, and the Radcliffe Institute for Advanced Study was created as one of ten Harvard schools.... http://www.radcliffe.edu/about/today/today.php http://www.radcliffe.edu/index.php Beacon Hill http://www.beaconhillonline.com/cgi-bin/index.cgi?cid=5 http://www.beaconhillonline.com/cgi-bin/index.cgi The Last Puritan Santayana, George. The Last Puritan: A Memoir in the Form of a Novel. NY: Ingram, 1935. Published in 1935, George Santayana's The Last Puritan was the American philosopher's only novel and it became an instant best- seller, immediately linked in its painful voyage of self-discovery to The Education of Henry Adams. It is essentially a novel of ideas expressed in the birth, life, and early death of Oliver Alden. In Oliver's case the puritanical self-destruction that prevented him from realizing his own spirituality is transcended by his attainment of the type of self-knowledge that Santayana recommends throughout his moral philosophy. http://mitpress.mit.edu/catalog/item/default.asp?sid=329CF052-BB7F-4587-8B54-2531CABC9CFD&ttype=2&tid=6788 http://mitpress.mit.edu/catalog/item/default.asp?tid=6869&ttype=2 Santayana�s philosophic stance has been given the apparently opposite descriptions of materialism and Platonism. The contradiction is partly understandable as resulting from his view of the mind as being firmly placed in and responsive to a physical, biological context, and his simultaneous emphasis on and high evaluation of the mind�s rational and imaginative vision of physical reality.... he enunciated a qualified hedonism that placed high value on aesthetic pleasure; it was a pleasure that was understood to be an irrational expression of vital interests but was distinguished from direct, sensual pleasures. ... he saw the relationship of thought and reality as one of ideal correspondence. Santayana�s earlier work is marked by a psychological approach to the life of the mind.... he adopted a more classical philosophic approach, making ontological distinctions between the objects of mental activity. Against Cartesian skepticism and idealism he advanced the notion of �animal faith� as the basis of the life of reason. Religion he viewed as an imaginative creation of real value but without absolute significance. Although he continued to value imaginative and rational consciousness he warned against the mind�s tendency to confer substantial reality and causal efficacy on its own creations. His personal withdrawal from active life was paralleled in his philosophy by a decided moral detachment. The whole of Santayana�s philosophic writing displays a characteristic richness of style .... His only novel, The Last Puritan (1935), had great popular success.... http://www.bartleby.com/65/sn/Sntyan.html "susceptible to tradition" Eliot, T.S. "Tradition and the Individual Talent." The Sacred Wood. London: Methuen, 1920. http://www.bartleby.com/200/sw4.html http://xroads.virginia.edu/~DRBR/eliot.html http://www.english.uiuc.edu/maps/poets/a_f/eliot/tradition.htm "Midwestern hauteur" ??--help me out on this one, Tim ... torero Main Entry: to�re�ro Pronunciation: t&-'rer-(")O Function: noun Inflected Form(s): plural -ros Etymology: Spanish, from Latin taurarius bullfighter, from Latin taurus bull : a matador or a member of the attending cuadrilla http://m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=torero __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From monropolitan at yahoo.com Tue Aug 17 20:04:44 2004 From: monropolitan at yahoo.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 18:04:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: LPPM MMV "Sit Tibi Terra Levis" Message-ID: <20040818010444.2913.qmail@web50705.mail.yahoo.com> "Grossmann took to strolling in the moonlight with only the most patrician of Radcliffe and Wellesley girls; he discovered a wonderful make-out spot down behind the minute man statue in Concord; he began carrying a black umbrella and gave away all his loud clothes, substituting flawless and expensive tweeds and worsteds. Siegel was mildly disturbed at all this but it was not until one afternoon in the early spring, when he entered their rooms at Dunster and surprised Grossmann standing in front of the mirror, umbrella under one arm, eyebrows raised superciliously and nose ached loftily, reciting 'I parked my car in Harvard yard,' over and over, that he was struck with the extent of his roommate's dissipation. "The strong nasal r's Siegel had secretly admired there now eneverated and pallid; and in that classic shibboleth, Siegel recognized poor, innocent Grossmann's swan song. A year later Siegel got a letter, the last: Grossmann had married a Wellesley girl and they were living in Swampscott. Sit tibi terra levis, Grossmann." (MMV, p. 5) Wellesley http://www.wellesley.edu/ "the minute man statue in Concord" At Minute Man National Historical Park, the Battles of Lexington and Concord are brought to life through the preservation, restoration and interpretation of significant sites from "that famous day and year" when Colonists took up arms in defense of liberty and touched off the American Revolution. At Concord's North Bridge, visitors can see the place where, on April 19, 1775, Colonial militia men fired the famous "shot heard 'round the world." Reflect on the meaning of freedom in a tranquil, commemorative landscape that includes Daniel Chester French's Minute Man Statue. http://www.nps.gov/mima/ And see as well ... http://www.yeodoug.com/resources/dc_french/concord_mman/dcfrench_concord_mman.html http://www.concordma.com/magazine/marapr00/minuteman.html http://www.concordma.com/magazine/sept98/minman.html Dunster http://hcs.harvard.edu/~dunster/ "his roommate's dissipation" Cf. ... "... by now--early Virgo--he has become one plucked albatross. Plucked, hell--stripped. Scattered all over the Zone. It's doubtful if he can ever be 'found' again, in the conventional sense of 'positively identified and detained.'" (GR, Pt. IV, p. 712) shibboleth Main Entry: shib�bo�leth Pronunciation: 'shi-b&-l&th also -"leth Function: noun Etymology: Hebrew shibbOleth stream; from the use of this word in Judg 12:6 as a test to distinguish Gileadites from Ephraimites, who pronounced it sibbOleth 1 a : a word or saying used by adherents of a party, sect, or belief and usually regarded by others as empty of real meaning b : a widely held belief c : TRUISM, PLATITUDE 2 a : a use of language regarded as distinctive of a particular group b : a custom or usage regarded as distinguishing one group from others http://m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=shibboleth "swan song" ... swan song comes from Greece, where in ancient times, swans (who actually never sing) were believed to sing a song before death. http://www.mosaicminds.net/science/inquiring_minds/2004-04.php There is a legend that swans sing an exquisitely beautiful song just before dying. There's no truth to it, but that's the legend and the origin of the phrase. The phrase swan song dates to 1831, although English language literary allusions to the legend date back to Chaucer, c. 1374. (And the association of swans and singing is even older, stemming from Greek myth.) http://www.wordorigins.org/wordors.htm#Swan A swan song is a reference to an ancient and false belief that swans (Cygnus olor) are completely mute during life, but sing one heartbreakingly beautiful song just as they die.... The antiquity of the legend is indicated by Pliny's denial of it in A.D. 77. Not only do "mute" swans not sing as they die, but they produce snorts, shrill noises, grunts, and hisses throughout life. But the legend is so appealing that it has been used in artistic works over the centuries.... By extension, swan song has become an idiom referring to a final theatrical or dramatic appearance, or any final work or accomplishment.... It generally carries the connotation that the performer is aware of his or her imminent demise (or departure/retirement, etc) and is expending his or her last breath on magnum opus Magnum opus, from the Latin meaning great work, refers to the best or most renowned achievement of an author, artist, or composer. http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.com/Swan%20Song "Sit tibi terra levis, Grossmann" sit tibi terra levis: May the earth lie light upon thee. (An inscription often found on Roman tombstones; frequently abbreviated to S.T.T.L.) http://www.sacklunch.net/Latin/S/sittibiterralevis.html __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From lycidas2 at earthlink.net Tue Aug 17 20:30:27 2004 From: lycidas2 at earthlink.net (Terrance) Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 21:30:27 -0400 Subject: LPPM MMV Grossman & Santayana References: <20040818004410.21786.qmail@web50701.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4122B133.1EF2D892@earthlink.net> Circumstances from the beginning had prepared me to feel this limitation of all moral dogmatism. My lot had been cast in different moral climates, amidst people of more than one language and religion, with contrary habits and assumptions of their political life. I was not bound to any type of society by ideal loyalty nor estranged from any by resentment. In my personal contacts I found them all tolerable when seen from the inside and not judged by some standard unintelligible to those born and bred under that influence. Personally I might have my instinctive preference, but speculatively and romantically I should have been glad to find an even greater diversity; and if one political tendency kindled my wrath, it was precisely the tendency of industrial liberalism to level down all civilizations to a single cheap and dreary pattern. I was happy to have been at home both in Spain and in New England and later to have lived pleasantly in England and in various countries frequented by tourists; even happier to have breathed intellectually the air of Greece and Rome, and of that Catholic Church in which the world and its wisdom, without being distorted, were imaginatively enveloped in another world revealed by inspiration. All this was enlightening, if you could escape from it; and I should have been glad to have been at home also in China and in Carthage, in Baghdad and Byzantium. Had that been possible, this book could have been written with more elasticity. It is a hindrance to the free movement of spirit to be lodged in one point of space rather than another, or in one point of time: that is a physical necessity which intelligence endeavors to discount, since it cannot be eluded. Seen under the form of eternity, all ages are equally past and equally future; and it is impossible to take quite seriously the tastes and ambitions of our contemporaries. Everything gently compels us to view human affairs scientifically, realistically, biologically, as events that arise, with all their spiritual overtones, in the realm of matter. Santayana transcended the chauvinistic claims of the American tradition, yet he was and American pragmatist. From lycidas2 at earthlink.net Tue Aug 17 20:30:38 2004 From: lycidas2 at earthlink.net (Terrance) Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 21:30:38 -0400 Subject: LPPM MMV Irving Loon & Santayana References: Message-ID: <4122B13E.17D3B747@earthlink.net> "There is little philosophy not contained in the distinction between things as they exist in nature, and things as they appear to opinion yet both the substance and its appearance often bear the same name, to the confusion of discourse. So it is with the word madness, which sometimes designates a habit of action, sometimes an illusion of the mind, AND sometimes only the opprobrium which a censorious bystander may wish to cast upon either. Moralists and ignorant philosophers do not distinguish nature from convention, and because madness is inconvenient to society they call it contrary to nature, BUT the diseases which destroy a man are no less natural than the instincts which preserve him. >From "Normal Madness" Dialogues In Limbo Santayana From glenn_scheper at earthlink.net Wed Aug 18 08:27:07 2004 From: glenn_scheper at earthlink.net (Glenn Scheper) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 06:27:07 -0700 (GMT-07:00) Subject: LPPM MMV "Sit Tibi Terra Levis" Message-ID: <32683412.1092835627692.JavaMail.root@waldorf.psp.pas.earthlink.net> > ... swan song comes from Greece, where in ancient > times, swans (who actually never sing) were believed > to sing a song before death. Yes, but you failed to draw in how death can be metamorphosis. For as a metamorphosized autofellator, I recognize many poets' mention of birds mean the overhanging penis. Hey, I see Yeats, my recognizable fellow in this arcane knowledge, and I recall autocunnilingtrix Emily Dickinson recognized the bird trope: http://www.inform.umd.edu/EdRes/Topic/WomensStudies/ReadingRoom/Poetry/Dickinson/i-had-been-hungry I had been hungry all the years- ... I did not know the ample bread, 'T was so unlike the crumb The birds and I had often shared In Nature's dining-room. http://www.inform.umd.edu/EdRes/Topic/WomensStudies/ReadingRoom/Poetry/Dickinson/a-bird-came-down A bird came down the walk: He did not know I saw; He bit an angle-worm in halves And ate the fellow, raw. http://www.d-sites.net/english/yeats.htm _Yeats' Leda and the swan: an image's coming of age_ http://www.unc.edu/courses/2002fall/engl/093/002/WH_Auden/zeus.htm _zeus_ URTAT (19th c) Leda and the swan by Leonardo di Bottega (16t http://www.bta.it/txt/a0/02/en/bta00281.html _BTA - Telematic Bulletin of Art / Texts / bta00281.html_ ear the seat allowed to the Swan, That Jupiter himself creat http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/celt/mcft/mcft21.htm _More Celtic Fairy Tales: Notes and References_ lso the same list sub voce "Swan Maiden Transformation." In http://celt.net/Celtic/msg/mmmakers/mmmakers_III.html _Myths and Myth-Makers : Werewolves and Swan-Maidens_ http://www.trockadero.org/Repertory/swanLake..html _Swan Lake (Act 2) - Trock Repertory_ http://www.rfc791.org/~churl/lit/gist2002.html _churl: The Gist of it 2002_ ng was actually a beautiful swan! You know what? This story http://www.shu.ac.uk/emls/emlsjour.html _Early Modern Literary Studies: A Journal of Sixteenth- and Seventeenth-Century English Literature_ http://www.malvision.com/em/swan-lake/eswanlake.htm _Swan Lake_ http://www.factmonster.com/ce6/ent/A0830171.html _Lohengrin_ suitor. Led to Antwerp by a swan, Lohengrin saves Elsa and m http://reference.allrefer.com/encyclopedia/L/Lohengri.html _AllRefer Encyclopedia - Lohengrin (German Literature) - Encyclopedia_ http://www.bartleby.com/65/lo/Lohengri.html _Lohengrin. The Columbia Encyclopedia, Sixth Edition. 2001_ http://etext.virginia.edu/latin/ovid/sandys/contents.htm _Sandys' Ovid 1632 (linked table of contents)--Ovid Illustrated, University of Virginia Electronic Text Center_ http://www.encyclopedia.com/html/L/Lohengri.asp _Lohengrin on Encyclopedia.com_ http://haldjas.folklore.ee/folklore/vol4/triinu.htm _ZOOMORF_ e good divers, as well as a swan, an owl, a crow, and an eag http://etext.lib.virginia.edu/latin/ovid/notes.html _Ovid Illustrated: the Renaissance Reception of Ovid--University of Virginia Electronic Text Center_ of 1563. 2/4a Cygnus into a Swan. [ 2.367-80] 2/5 Apollo Den http://hjem.get2net.dk/leduc/htmls/skulptur/metamorf.htm _Metamorphosis - Leda and the swan_ http://www.www71242.w1.com/scstore/p-1999800258.html _Duck Becomes Swan: the Rx-to-Dx Metamorphosis of Cygnus_ http://www.artseek.com/angie/metamorphosis.html _Bronze Sculptures by Angie Whitson_ ell to the 5th sculpture, a Swan song for a sat'yr. These ar http://www.geocities.com/tmartiac/thalassa/ovid.htm _Ovid's Metamorphoses_ http://d-sites.net/english/weiner.htm _Lawrence Weiner: and the flesh became word_ http://www.mythology.com/bookofwerewolves3.html _Book of Werewolves Chapter 3 - MythologyWeb_ ther was Svanhwit, Who wore swan feathers; And the third, Th http://www.popartuk.com/art/salvador-dali-ea001-print.asp _Salvador Dali, Reflections of Elephants - Buy Online_ : The reflection of elegant swan's metamorphosis's into elep http://www.fabrisia.com/totemanimals.htm _Totem Animals_ uirrel ~~ planner, gatherer Swan ~~ grace, balance and innoc Yours truly, Glenn Scheper http://home.earthlink.net/~glenn_scheper/ glenn_scheper + at + earthlink.net Copyleft(!) Forward freely. From r.romeo at atlanticphilanthropies.org Wed Aug 18 10:51:39 2004 From: r.romeo at atlanticphilanthropies.org (Richard Romeo) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 11:51:39 -0400 Subject: Wood on Current Fiction Message-ID: <55B62A3E95D99F4FBEC800D73AC2F2536EBDBD@nyc1a.local.atlanticphilanthropies.org> I like this quote from interview James Wood did with the Boston Globe a few days ago (bolding mine): WOOD: It might sound strange, since I criticize writers like Don DeLillo so fiercely, but I do like novels set clearly in the present age, novels full of palpabilities. I think that's what the novel can still do better than any other medium journalism doesn't provide me with news about the current state of the soul. Part of my anxiety and unease about novels by Foster Wallace, Franzen, and others is that they have swallowed a great deal of journalism, sociology, and cultural studies, which means they are no longer doing something that's not replaceable that another medium can't do as well or better. . . . I am accused of being too harsh, but the critic's job is to look at the threats, the menaces to literature. Richard -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From davemarc at panix.com Wed Aug 18 10:15:53 2004 From: davemarc at panix.com (davemarc) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 11:15:53 -0400 Subject: Slow Learner "Introduction" and O'Brian Reference in Mason & Dixon Message-ID: <007d01c48549$980e5740$2fc654a6@gmsc20b> In the Slow Learner "Introduction," Pynchon writes about feigning expertise in his fiction. In Mason & Dixon, he seems to offer an affectionate nod to historical novelist Patrick O'Brian: "Not only does O'Brian know all there is to know and more 'pon the Topick of Euphroes, and Rigging even more obscure,-- he's also acknowleg'd as the best Yarn-Spinner in all the Fleets." Now there's a BBC story challenging Patrick O'Brian's expertise: Patrick O'Brian: Could he sail? An associate says not The late Patrick O'Brian's celebrated maritime novels inspired legions of fans to venture on to the ocean waves. But fresh evidence suggests the legendary writer couldn't even sail. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/3570988.stm d. From r.romeo at atlanticphilanthropies.org Wed Aug 18 12:42:55 2004 From: r.romeo at atlanticphilanthropies.org (Richard Romeo) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 13:42:55 -0400 Subject: Slow Learner "Introduction" and O'Brian Reference in Mason & Dixon Message-ID: <55B62A3E95D99F4FBEC800D73AC2F2536EBDC6@nyc1a.local.atlanticphilanthropies.org> I wonder if with a large crew that individuals had one job assigned to them Considering many were forced on board there were probably many sailors who didn't have a clue about sailing I would guess in today's modern navies, with the division of labor, that many don't know how to sail Fwiw... David Mitchell's Cloud Atlas is getting Pynchon/GR comparisons--hope it's better than ghostwritten or number 9 dream Richard -----Original Message----- From: owner-pynchon-l at waste.org [mailto:owner-pynchon-l at waste.org] On Behalf Of davemarc Sent: Wednesday, August 18, 2004 11:16 AM To: Pynchlist Subject: Slow Learner "Introduction" and O'Brian Reference in Mason & Dixon In the Slow Learner "Introduction," Pynchon writes about feigning expertise in his fiction. In Mason & Dixon, he seems to offer an affectionate nod to historical novelist Patrick O'Brian: "Not only does O'Brian know all there is to know and more 'pon the Topick of Euphroes, and Rigging even more obscure,-- he's also acknowleg'd as the best Yarn-Spinner in all the Fleets." Now there's a BBC story challenging Patrick O'Brian's expertise: Patrick O'Brian: Could he sail? An associate says not The late Patrick O'Brian's celebrated maritime novels inspired legions of fans to venture on to the ocean waves. But fresh evidence suggests the legendary writer couldn't even sail. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/3570988.stm d. From monropolitan at yahoo.com Wed Aug 18 13:18:00 2004 From: monropolitan at yahoo.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 11:18:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Slow Learner "Introduction" and O'Brian Reference in Mason & Dixon In-Reply-To: <007d01c48549$980e5740$2fc654a6@gmsc20b> Message-ID: <20040818181801.5978.qmail@web50707.mail.yahoo.com> Man's Favorite Sport? (1964) Roger Willoughby works at a sporting goods store and is the author of a best selling guide to fishing, even though he has never fished.... http://imdb.com/title/tt0058324/ --- davemarc wrote: > In the Slow Learner "Introduction," Pynchon writes > about feigning expertise > in his fiction. > > In Mason & Dixon, he seems to offer an affectionate > nod to historical novelist Patrick O'Brian: "Not > only does O'Brian know all there is to know and > more 'pon the Topick of Euphroes, and Rigging even > more obscure,-- he's also acknowleg'd as the best > Yarn-Spinner in all the Fleets." > > Now there's a BBC story challenging Patrick > O'Brian's expertise: > > Patrick O'Brian: Could he sail? An associate says > not The late Patrick O'Brian's celebrated maritime > novels inspired legions of fans to venture on to > the ocean waves. But fresh evidence suggests the > legendary writer couldn't even sail. > http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/3570988.stm __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Address AutoComplete - You start. We finish. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From monropolitan at yahoo.com Wed Aug 18 13:32:08 2004 From: monropolitan at yahoo.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 11:32:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: LPPM MMV "Gauguin and Eliot and Grossmann" Message-ID: <20040818183208.73149.qmail@web50706.mail.yahoo.com> "But Siegel wondered how in the hell it was possible for anyone to sink roots in a town at once as middle class and as cosmopolitan as Washington. You could become bourgeois or one of the international set but this could happen in any city. Unless it had nothing to do with the place at all and was a question of compulsion--unless there was something which linked people like Gaugin and Eliot and Grossmann, some reason which gave them no other choice; and this was why, when it had happened in Boston and now maybe even in Washington, for god's sake, Siegel felt uneasy and unwilling to think about it too much." (MMV, p. 5) "Gaugin and Eliot and Grossmann" Gauguin Gauguin, (Eug�ne-Henri-) Paul (b. June 7, 1848, Paris, Fr.--d. May 8, 1903, Atuona, Hiva Oa, Marquesas Islands, French Polynesia), one of the leading French painters of the Postimpressionist period, whose development of a conceptual method of representation was a decisive step for 20th-century art. After spending a short period with Vincent van Gogh in Arles (1888), Gauguin increasingly abandoned imitative art for expressiveness through colour. From 1891 he lived and worked in Tahiti and elsewhere in the South Pacific. His masterpieces include the early Vision After the Sermon (1888) and Where Do We Come From? What Are We? Where Are We Going? (1897-98). Although his main achievements were to lie elsewhere, Gauguin was, to use a fanciful metaphor, nursed in the bosom of Impressionism. His attitudes to art were deeply influenced by his experience of its first exhibition, and he himself participated in those of 1880, 1881 and 1882. The son of a French journalist and a Peruvian Creole, whose mother had been a writer and a follower of Saint-Simon, he was brought up in Lima, joined the merchant navy in 1865, and in 1872 began a successful career as a stockbroker in Paris. In 1874 he saw the first Impressionist exhibition, which completely entranced him and confirmed his desire to become a painter.... [...] Gauguin's art has all the appearance of a flight from civilisation, of a search for new ways of life, more primitive, more real and more sincere. His break away from a solid middle-class world, abandoning family, children and job, his refusal to accept easy glory and easy gain are the best-known aspects of Gauguin's fascinating life and personality. This picture, also known as Two women on the beach, was painted in 1891, shortly after Gauguin's arrival in Tahiti. During his first stay there (he was to leave in 1893, only to return in 1895 and remain until his death), Gauguin discovered primitive art, with its flat forms and the violent colors belonging to an untamed nature. And then, with absolute sincerity, he transferred them onto canvas. http://www.ibiblio.org/wm/paint/auth/gauguin/ And se as well, e.g., ... http://www.artcyclopedia.com/artists/gauguin_paul.html http://www.artchive.com/artchive/G/gauguin.html Eliot Eliot, T. S. (26 Sept. 1888-4 Jan. 1965), poet, critic, and editor, was born Thomas Stearns Eliot in St. Louis, Missouri, the son of Henry Ware Eliot, president of the Hydraulic-Press Brick Company, and Charlotte Champe Stearns, a former teacher, an energetic social work volunteer at the Humanity Club of St. Louis, and an amateur poet with a taste for Emerson.... [...] Eliot's attending Harvard seems to have been a foregone conclusion. His father and mother, jealously guarding their connection to Boston's Unitarian establishment, brought the family back to the north shore every summer, and in 1896 built a substantial house at Eastern Point, in Gloucester, Massachusetts. As a boy, Eliot foraged for crabs and became an accomplished sailor, trading the Mississippi River in the warm months for the rocky shoals of Cape Ann. Later he said that he gave up a sense of belonging to either region, that he always felt like a New Englander in the Southwest, and a Southwesterner in New England.... [...] In December 1908 a book Eliot found in the Harvard Union library changed his life: Arthur Symons's The Symbolist Movement in Literature (1895) ... [...] In the fall of 1911, though, Eliot was as preoccupied with ideas as with literature. A student in what has been called the golden age of Harvard philosophy, he worked amid a group that included Santayana, William James, the visiting Bertrand Russell, and Josiah Royce.... [...] Eliot spent the early summer of 1914 at a seminar in Marburg, Germany, with plans to study in the fall at Merton College, Oxford... In early spring 1915 Eliot's old Milton Academy and Harvard friend Scofield Thayer, later editor of the Dial and then also at Oxford, introduced Eliot to Vivien Haigh-Wood .... in June 1915 he married Vivien on impulse at the Hampstead Registry Office.... Vivien refused to cross the Atlantic in wartime, and Eliot took his place in literary London.... http://www.english.uiuc.edu/maps/poets/a_f/eliot/eliot.htm And see as well, e.g., ... http://virtual.park.uga.edu/~232/eliot.taken.html http://www.poets.org/poets/poets.cfm?prmID=18 http://www.bartleby.com/people/Eliot-Th.html "... Grossmann, a proud and stubborn native of Chicago who denied the presence of any civilization outside of Cook County and for whom Boston was worse even than Oak Park, was in fact, a sort of apotheosis of the effete and the puritan ...." (MMV, p. 4) _______________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Express yourself with Y! Messenger! Free. Download now. http://messenger.yahoo.com From monropolitan at yahoo.com Wed Aug 18 15:54:03 2004 From: monropolitan at yahoo.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 13:54:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: LPPM MMV "This Little Jesuit Thing" Message-ID: <20040818205403.80506.qmail@web50704.mail.yahoo.com> "This little Jesuit thing, this poltergeist, would start kicking around inside his head just as it had done with the briefcase, and call him back to the real country where there were drinks to be mixed and bon mots to be tossed out carelessly and maybe a drunk or two to take care of. It was doing that now." (MMV, p. 5) "This little Jesuit thing" Cf. ... "For this his roommate at college sophomore year had called him Stephen and taunted him mercilessly about the still small Jesuit voice which kept him from being either kicked around or conscious of guilt or simply ineffective like so many of the other Jewish boys on campus seemed to Grossmann to be." (MMV, p. 1) "quaint Jesuit arguments" (V., Ch. 1, p. 12) "DEVIL'S ADVOCATE'S what the shingle sez, yes inside is a Jesuit here to act in that capacity, here to preach, like his colleague Teilhard de Chardin, against return." (GR, Pt. III, p. 539) And in M&D ... Jesuits 266; 287; 328; 377; 420; 432; 479; College, 514; discovered by Blondelle, 519; Lesson I, 520; "a Financial Entity" 528; "Visitants from beneath the Ice" 531; 534; 543; 546; 601; physics, 604; 611; "five and a Quarter Degrees [...] removed from the Chinese Circle" 629; 687; 711; 772 http://www.hyperarts.com/pynchon/mason-dixon/alpha/j.html poltergeist Main Entry: pol�ter�geist Pronunciation: 'pOl-t&r-"gIst Function: noun Etymology: German, from poltern to knock + Geist spirit : a noisy usually mischievous ghost held to be responsible for unexplained noises (as rappings) bon mots Main Entry: bon mot Pronunciation: bOn-'mO Function: noun Inflected Form(s): plural bons mots /bOn-'mO(z)/; or bon mots /-'mO(z)/ Etymology: French, literally, good word : a clever remark : WITTICISM http://m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From monropolitan at yahoo.com Wed Aug 18 15:53:51 2004 From: monropolitan at yahoo.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 13:53:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: LPPM MMV "This Little Jesuit Thing" Message-ID: <20040818205351.36863.qmail@web50703.mail.yahoo.com> "This little Jesuit thing, this poltergeist, would start kicking around inside his head just as it had done with the briefcase, and call him back to the real country where there were drinks to be mixed and bon mots to be tossed out carelessly and maybe a drunk or two to take care of. It was doing that now." (MMV, p. 5) "This little Jesuit thing" Cf. ... "For this his roommate at college sophomore year had called him Stephen and taunted him mercilessly about the still small Jesuit voice which kept him from being either kicked around or conscious of guilt or simply ineffective like so many of the other Jewish boys on campus seemed to Grossmann to be." (MMV, p. 1) "quaint Jesuit arguments" (V., Ch. 1, p. 12) "DEVIL'S ADVOCATE'S what the shingle sez, yes inside is a Jesuit here to act in that capacity, here to preach, like his colleague Teilhard de Chardin, against return." (GR, Pt. III, p. 539) And in M&D ... Jesuits 266; 287; 328; 377; 420; 432; 479; College, 514; discovered by Blondelle, 519; Lesson I, 520; "a Financial Entity" 528; "Visitants from beneath the Ice" 531; 534; 543; 546; 601; physics, 604; 611; "five and a Quarter Degrees [...] removed from the Chinese Circle" 629; 687; 711; 772 http://www.hyperarts.com/pynchon/mason-dixon/alpha/j.html poltergeist Main Entry: pol�ter�geist Pronunciation: 'pOl-t&r-"gIst Function: noun Etymology: German, from poltern to knock + Geist spirit : a noisy usually mischievous ghost held to be responsible for unexplained noises (as rappings) bon mots Main Entry: bon mot Pronunciation: bOn-'mO Function: noun Inflected Form(s): plural bons mots /bOn-'mO(z)/; or bon mots /-'mO(z)/ Etymology: French, literally, good word : a clever remark : WITTICISM http://m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail is new and improved - Check it out! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From monropolitan at yahoo.com Wed Aug 18 16:05:26 2004 From: monropolitan at yahoo.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 14:05:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: LPPM MMV "His Roommate at College" Message-ID: <20040818210526.84182.qmail@web50704.mail.yahoo.com> >From Geoffrey Nunberg, "Go Figure," The Way We Talk Now: Commentaries on Language and Culture from NPR's "Fresh Air" (Boston: Houghton Mifflin, 2001), pp. 35-7 ... "Of course people don't always use the Yiddish words correctly. Take shmuck. In Yiddish it's a name for the penis which is also used to mean a stupid person, as in 'What a shmuck I was not to buy Cisco at 20!' But nowadays I keep hearing people use it to mean something like 'bastard,' as in 'He's a real shmuck to his employees.' My theory is that when Gentiles hear shmuck used in such a vehemently disapproving way they think it must mean something stronger than merely a fool, not realizing that yidish culture considers stupidity to be one of the cardinal vices. As the liguist Ellen Prince has pointed out, Yiddish has more words for stupid or ollish people than the Eskimos are supposed to have for snow ...." (p. 37) --- Dave Monroe wrote: > "'Also, Grossmann,' Siegel had retorted, 'it perhaps > saves me from being a schmuck like you.'" (MMV, p. 1) > > schmuck > > PRONUNCIATION: shmuk > VARIANT FORMS: also shmuck > NOUN: Slang A clumsy or stupid person; an oaf. > ETYMOLOGY: Yiddish shmok, penis, fool, probably from > Polish smok, serpent, tail. > > http://www.bartleby.com/61/84/S0138400.html > > Shmuck: another of the many Yiddish words for > "penis." Although it has the same basic meaning > as "putz," a shmuck generally refers to someone > with greater power or social or emotional status. > > http://www.bubbygram.com/yiddishglossary.htm > > And see as well, e.g., ... > > http://www.wordiq.com/definition/Yiddish_language __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From lycidas2 at earthlink.net Wed Aug 18 16:17:31 2004 From: lycidas2 at earthlink.net (Terrance) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 17:17:31 -0400 Subject: MMV: Conrad References: Message-ID: <4123C76B.8CEFCF05@earthlink.net> Out of the Jungle. The savage, however, remains. The isolation, endures. Lupescu has been in the jungle far too long. He has paid a tourist's price. His mind, his body, and his soul are sick. But he gets out. His double, Siegel, his secret sharer, steps in at the moment when the highest price must be paid. That price, is the price of moral integrity. Just one reason I like to refer to this short story as Mercy & **Morality** in Venice. Siegel is so very civilized, so very organized, so very far from the maddening cries of crowds murdered in the jungles and streets. He's not even a spy. He's protected by law, by police, by the political Whiteness of Washington. What does he know of the heart of darkness? Less than Lepescu. But he's no slow learner. He quickly discovers what the Captain in Conrad's Secret Sharer discovers: himself. He gains knowledge about Humanity only after he has totally identified with his secret sharer (the murderer) and the murderer's moral problem. And once Siegel discovers that Lepescu is his murdering double, he too gets out of the jungle. But Siegel is not Marlow, Lepescu no Kurtz. Siegel lacks the journey, the unflagging pursuit of his double. He recognizes his double at first sight, but he never attempts to understand him, to fathom Lepescu's (and thus his own) heart. From monropolitan at yahoo.com Wed Aug 18 16:17:56 2004 From: monropolitan at yahoo.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 14:17:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: LPPM MMV "On the Wall" Message-ID: <20040818211756.86760.qmail@web50701.mail.yahoo.com> "A Klee original was on the wall facing them; two crossed BAR's, hunting rifles and a few sabres hung around the other walls. The room was sparsely furnished in Swedish modern and carpeted wall to wall." (MMV, p. 6) Klee A Swiss-born painter and graphic artist whose personal, often gently humorous works are replete with allusions to dreams, music, and poetry, Paul Klee, b. Dec. 18, 1879, d. June 29, 1940, is difficult to classify.... http://www.ibiblio.org/wm/paint/auth/klee/ And see as well, e.g., ... http://www.artchive.com/artchive/K/klee.html http://www.artcyclopedia.com/artists/klee_paul.html "two crossed BAR's" The initial M1918A1 version of the Browning Automatic Rifle (BAR) was first used in combat by American soldiers during World War I, and many saw service in World War II. The BAR received high praise for its reliability under adverse conditions. In 1940, the model M1918A2 was adopted.... [...] The BAR was a popular weapon in WWII and Korea, because it was very reliable and offered an excellent combination of rapid fire and penetrating power.... http://www.rt66.com/~korteng/SmallArms/browning.htm The Browning Automatic Rifle (BAR) was designed in 1917 by the weapons designer John Browning as a replacement for the French-made Chauchat Light Machine Gun, which was plagued by design flaws that made the weapon ineffective. http://www.wordiq.com/definition/Browning_Automatic_Rifle "Swedish modern" Scandinavian modern (c.1930s to present) Also know as Swedish modern, this style emerged at the same time as modernism in the 1930s. It was interrupted by the Depression and World War II, and then finally reached its height in the 1950s. http://www.bbc.co.uk/homes/design/period_scand_mod.shtml __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From monropolitan at yahoo.com Wed Aug 18 16:38:24 2004 From: monropolitan at yahoo.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 14:38:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: LPPM MMV "Trodden-On and Disaffected" Message-ID: <20040818213824.9770.qmail@web50708.mail.yahoo.com> "'I don't really know why I should be telling you about this,' she began and it was as if she bad said. 'Bless me father for I have sinned,' because Siegel often thought that if all the punks, lushes, coeds in love, woebegone PFC's--the whole host of trodden-on and disaffected--who had approached him with that opening formula were placed end to end they would surely reach from here back to the Grand Concourse and a timid spindleshanked boy in a slashed necktie. 'Except,' she continued, 'that you look like David, you have the same kind of sympathy for anybody who gets kicked around, I feel that somehow.'" (MMV, p. 6) "woebegone PFC's" In the U.S. Army, Private First Class is the third lowest enlisted rank, just above Private and below Corporal or Specialist.... http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.com/Private%20First%20Class "the whole host of trodden-on and disaffected" Main Entry: host Pronunciation: 'hOst Function: noun Etymology: Middle English, from Old French, from Late Latin hostis, from Latin, stranger, enemy -- more at GUEST 1 : ARMY 2 : a very large number : MULTITUDE http://m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary&va=host http://waste.org/mail/?list=pynchon-l&month=0408&msg=92429 Cf., e.g., ... Preterite Calvinist/Puritan doctrine of the Elect (the chosen) and the Preterite (the passed-over, the damned); "second sheep" 3; "a new preterition abroad in England" 15; Dodoes, 108-11; "But if [the Dutch settlors] were chosen to come to Mauritius, why had they also been chosen to fail, and leave? Is that a choosing, or is it a passing over? Are they Elect, or are they Preterite, and doomed as Dodoes?" 110; "men you have seen on foot and smileless in the cities but forgot" 136; at Rathenau seance, 163; coal-tars as preterite dung, 166; "his poor sheep" 233; "the multitudes who are passed over by God and History" 299; "In preterite line they have pointed her here" 316; "Elite and Preterite, we move through a cosmic design of darkness and light" 495; "they dissolve now into the swarm. . .of this dancing Preterition" 548; "The successful loner was only the other part of it: the last piece to the jigsaw puzzle, whose shape had already been created by the Preterite" 554; Judas, 555; On Preterition, 555; "in their slick persistence and our preterition" 590; "rubbers yellow with preterite seed, Kleenex wadded to brain shapes hiding preterite snot, preterite tears" 626; 667; 668; "the glozing neuters of the world" 677; "the Humility, among the gray and preterite souls" 742; See also Hand of Providence/God; Puritans http://www.hyperarts.com/pynchon/gravity/alpha/p-q.html "slashed necktie" Recall ... "the symbolic razor slash halfway up his black necktie" (p. 1) http://waste.org/mail/?list=pynchon-l&month=0408&msg=92383 http://waste.org/mail/?list=pynchon-l&month=0408&msg=92386 "sympathy for anyone who gets kicked around" Although Pynchon enjoyed a felicitous middle-class upbringing, from his earliest writings his humanist sympathies are repeatedly with the losers, the victims, the disinherited of history and of his stories.... http://www.vheissu.org/art/art_eng_SL_hollander.htm Pynchon, concerned with history as he is, often writes about the sadness, the tristesse, of the disinherited .... http://www.ottosell.de/pynchon/inferno.htm __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From jbor at bigpond.com Wed Aug 18 17:25:45 2004 From: jbor at bigpond.com (jbor) Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 08:25:45 +1000 Subject: MMV: Critical sources In-Reply-To: Message-ID: King, Vincent. 'Giving Destruction a Name and a Face: Thomas Pynchon's "Mortality and Mercy in Vienna"'. Studies in Short Fiction 35.1, 1998, pp. 13-21. Not a bad article (though the journal editors have rechristened the story "Mortality and Mercy in Venice" in their page headers -- much to the critic's chagrin, I'd imagine). King says that there is a "general consensus" that 'MMV' is "one of Pynchon's best short stories", which is news to me. He argues that there are in the story "convincing signs that [Siegel] is a psychopath" (16) and that Pynchon intended him to be a "monster rather than a messiah" (17), but in my opinion he stretches plot and dialogue elements to an extreme degree to make his case. While King's conclusion -- that "Siegel's moral failure boils down to his careless use of language" and that, concomitantly, the "reader's moral failure can be attributed to careless reading" (20) -- isn't very convincing, the article does provide a handy overview of the published criticism specifically dealing with MMV. Anyway, at least it's on-topic. If anyone would like me to forward a pdf contact me offlist. As well as commentary on 'MMV' in the books by Dugdale, Seed and Slade, King addresses the following journal articles: Keesey, Douglas. 'The Politics of Doubling in 'Mortality and Mercy in Vienna"'. Pynchon Notes 24-25, 1989, pp. 5-19. Smetak, Jacqueline. 'Thomas Pynchon's "Mortality and Mercy in Vienna": Major Themes in an Early Work'. Iowa Journal of Literary Studies 4.1, 1993, pp. 65-76. White, Allon. 'Ironic Equivalence: a reading of Thomas Pynchon's "Mortality and Mercy in Vienna"'. Critical Quarterly 23.3, 1981, pp. 55-62. My guess is that the White article is the pick of the crop. If anyone has access to it I'd be grateful for a copy. best From bcoley at us.ibm.com Wed Aug 18 20:11:35 2004 From: bcoley at us.ibm.com (Brett Coley) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 21:11:35 -0400 Subject: GR III final six or something... Message-ID: Sorry for the mangled subject line (you will want cause and effect) but I seem to recall some e-mail looking for six more hosts... I volunterr for one of those slots. Regards, Brett -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From isread at btopenworld.com Thu Aug 19 02:31:03 2004 From: isread at btopenworld.com (Paul Nightingale) Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 08:31:03 +0100 Subject: m&m's in v Message-ID: <000401c485be$7e784c30$0201a8c0@Foucault> The story opens with Siegel back in town; yet one never can go back. The lengthy exposition that follows seeks to impose Siegel on the text and therefore the reader: by 'impose' I mean we're offered a conventional protagonist. The narration adopts Siegel's perspective; his career as a diplomat is haunted by the recollection of Miriam's death, which in turn invokes Rachel (whose image is transposed into that of a modernist, and therefore questioning, work of art--cf Zoyd and Mildred Pierce). This lengthy opening passage seeks to order his experiences, to see 'now' as the culmination of a series of preceding nows. One might see this as somehow comforting (life as meaningful, with a recognisable trajectory, rather than random and therefore meaningless). One might agree that such retrospection could go on for ever, the story turning into a thousand-page novel in which Siegel ("thirty years [is] a long time") never quite makes it to the party. As Lupescu opens the door, the paragraph ends by completing the action instigated in the first line ("Siegel got to the address ..."); Siegel and Lupescu are juxtaposed "like slightly flawed mirror images" (the one a representation of the other, as the Modigliani serves to represent Rachel); and Lupescu, speaking, offers two separate statements (his own name following a comment on Siegel's timekeeping). Lupescu's speech is the first in the narrative present. A few lines above, the narrative records what Siegel, many years previously, "had retorted" when Grossmann "taunted him mercilessly"; yet the taunts aren't given verbatim, independently of Siegel's recollection (are therefore given the same status as, eg, "Miriam's husband cursing Zeit the doctor ..." etc). Siegel insists he isn't "a schmuck like [Grossmann]"; and then Lupescu declares, emphatically, his identity. A few lines down, he confirms Siegel's status as "Mon semblable ... mon frere", at which point 'Siegel' finds himself transformed. The long opening passage positions Siegel as the subject of a given (personal) history--childhood, army, college, adult employment; from this point onwards, he becomes the means by which the text announces the stories told by others, Rachel, Lucy, Debby. The attempt to reassert the Siegel of the opening pages, ie (conventional) protagonist with a history, takes the form of further recollections of Grossmann. Lucy says Lupescu "was going native". Siegel considers it "strange" to speak of "going native in Washington": clearly one goes native in what is recognisably an alien culture. It puts him in mind of Grossmann, whose "gradual degeneration" or "dissipation" is then described in some detail. This passage takes us back to the story's opening, when Grossmann was introduced; and Siegel laments the passing/transformation of the man he had earlier called schmuck. This flashback, therefore, confirms that the narrative, like Siegel himself, can never go back. There is one more flashback to come. Siegel's recollection of Grossmann was triggered by Lucy's description of Lupescu "going native". Similarly Debby's use of the technical term "melancholia" triggers the recollection of Professor Mitchell's lecture. The Grossmann passage is Siegel's final attempt to keep the party at bay; by the time he recalls the lecture he can only leave the party, so to speak, by offering information about the Ojibwa: the flashback, impersonal insofar as it isn't 'about' Siegel, becomes a means to an end, a description of "the well-known Windigo psychosis". This confirms Siegel's marginalisation; and sets up the story's ending. From ottosell at yahoo.de Thu Aug 19 05:25:02 2004 From: ottosell at yahoo.de (Otto) Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 12:25:02 +0200 Subject: MMV References: Message-ID: <003101c485d6$cacc51e0$0101a8c0@i7t2q2> ----- Original Message ----- From: "jbor" To: Sent: Sunday, August 15, 2004 11:59 AM Subject: MMV > Context: > 'Mortality and Mercy in Vienna', Pynchon's second published story, > appeared in _Epoch_ in Spring 1959. Subsequently Pynchon > enrolled in a creative writing class at Cornell University taught > by the journal's editor, Baxter Hathaway (cf. SL: 17). > > So low is Pynchon's regard for it that the story is not mentioned -- let > alone included -- in the collection of his early stories published as > _Slow Learner_ (1984). Pynchon describes the stories that have been > included in that collection as "pretentious, goofy and ill-considered" > (4); it's safe to say that he believed that 'MMV' is even worse. > It is only safe to say that this story isn't included in that bundle that he calls "pretentious, goofy and ill-considered" (4). More would be speculation. Maybe, but this is speculation too, it is left out of "Slow Learner" because it is spared for a later collection of stories he considers to be better. > > Where Siegel is clearly near enough to a Pynchonian alter-ego, his > fictional college roommate, Grossman, is perhaps based on Jules Siegel. > I can't see this. An identification of the author with the protagonist seems very unlikely to me. Who would identify with such an asshole? > Theme: > Like much of Pynchon's work the story centres on a clash of cultures and > belief systems, both those various cultural and family heritages which > serve to make up an individual and the different worldviews which compete > or co-exist within a society. No one religion or perspective is privileged > over any other as "the One True Faith" in the story, Abolutely right. > though there is a > sense of smug self-satisfaction in the way that Pynchon has Siegel leave > the shallow and selfish pseudo-bohemians to their supposed just deserts > at the close. > In this I disagree. I don't share this sense and I don't think that the story has a morale like "they were so shallow they deserved to die" or "they looked too weird, it served them right." > Comment: > With its ostentatious and often gratuitous references to Shakespeare, the > Bible and gnostic Apocrypha, Jewish funeral traditions and Catholic church > rituals, bullfighting, Dada, Goethe, Eliot, Conrad, Albertus Magnus, > Santayana, Gaugin, foreign language phrases, Ojibwa culture and > psychopathology, and more, the story suffers from precisely the same > pretentiousness that it satirises in the shape of the partygoers babbling > on about "Zen", "San Francisco" and "Wittgenstein" -- perhaps > self-consciously and self-parodically, though, if so, not overtly enough. I wonder what's wrong talking about those topics? Aren't we doing that too at this party here? The "disappointment" is Siegel's, not necessarily the author's and I disagree to the following: > It's clear that > Pynchon identifies with Siegel and is distancing himself from the > pseudo-bohemian partygoers, "almost as if he had expected some esoteric language, something out of Albertus Magnus." "He was the most widely read of his time. The whole of Aristotle's works, presented in the Latin translations and notes of the Arabian commentators, were by him digested, interpreted and systematized in accordance with church doctrine." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albertus_Magnus That doesn't read as if Albertus Magnus is *that* esoterical that he would fit into the "Zen, San Francisco and Wittgenstein"-list that had begun to get "en vogue" in the Fifties. > but what is particularly jejune is the way the > narrative ultimately resolves itself in a blood-bath: it's a species of > that characteristic and supposedly shocking "and then the world exploded" > climax ending written by barely-pubescent prodigies ("a pose of ... somber > glee at any idea of mass destruction or decline" as he describes it in SL: 13). If I would apply something from "Slow Learner" to MMV it would be the part about "literary theft" -- and yes, I do "believe that nothing is original and all writers "borrow" from "sources (...)" (SL 17) and that therefor nothing's wrong when young writers are doing that too to improve their skills. He repeats the above quoted judgement on the juvenile interest in disaster on SL 18: "(...) the apocalyptic showdown." I think I agree more to Charles Hollanders' conclusion: "In this, his second story, Pynchon's skill is already evident. He weaves an apocalyptic tale from the disparate strands of Shakespeare, Conrad, Eliot, Stoicism, information theory, horror movies, anthropology, psychopathology, and one allusion to Rumanian politics. And, in its way, on its terms, it makes perfect sense." "Pynchon's Politics: The Presence of an Absence" Pynchon Notes 26-27, spring-fall 1990, pp. 5-59 http://www.vheissu.org/art/art_eng_SL_hollander.htm#chap_7 I agree to Charles because the story does make some sense to me and I like the way the manifold references are woven into the story. There maybe faults and weaknesses but I'm not half as good as a critic as he was as a writer already in those early days. In fact I've only heard once such a good story in any of the creative writing seminars I've attended, where, by the way, negative critique was "forbidden." The worst thing that could happen was that nobody said a word. So concluding from this I'd say our discussion here already proves that it's a good story. Otto From ottosell at yahoo.de Thu Aug 19 06:42:18 2004 From: ottosell at yahoo.de (Otto) Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 13:42:18 +0200 Subject: Today in History Message-ID: <007301c485e1$966bcec0$0101a8c0@i7t2q2> "Good Morning, what we have in mind is breakfast in bed for 400.000" August 18-20, 1969 Woodstock Music and Art Fair http://www.discoverynet.com/~barnes/index.htm From ottosell at yahoo.de Thu Aug 19 07:05:58 2004 From: ottosell at yahoo.de (Otto) Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 14:05:58 +0200 Subject: Today in History References: <007301c485e1$966bcec0$0101a8c0@i7t2q2> Message-ID: <007d01c485e4$e4c57500$0101a8c0@i7t2q2> Joan Baez "Sweet Sir Galahad"-introduction mentioning Richard Farina: http://www.geocities.com/sunsetstrip/3869/baez6.ra ----- Original Message ----- From: "Otto" To: "Pynchon Liste" Sent: Thursday, August 19, 2004 1:42 PM Subject: Today in History > "Good Morning, what we have in mind is breakfast in bed for 400.000" > > August 18-20, 1969 > Woodstock Music and Art Fair > http://www.discoverynet.com/~barnes/index.htm From malignd at yahoo.com Thu Aug 19 08:52:48 2004 From: malignd at yahoo.com (Malignd) Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 06:52:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Wood on Current Fiction In-Reply-To: <55B62A3E95D99F4FBEC800D73AC2F2536EBDBD@nyc1a.local.atlanticphilanthropies.org> Message-ID: <20040819135248.3541.qmail@web12010.mail.yahoo.com> <> "Menaces" seems a little overwrought. In any case, he seems in this to be missing the aspect of context and perspective. The treatments of these topics will be different when considered in the context of a novel, where the strictures of scholarship and rules of journalism are loosened and the topics treated more subjectively. Considered thus, the argument that other mediums treat these topics "better" is far from obvious. It will depend entirely on the talent and desired ends of the particular novelist. This is not, however, to endorse the argument often made here that Pynchon's novels or those of any other writer can or should be read as journalism or scholarship or history. In that case the menace is not to fiction but to rational thinking on those topics. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From ghetta_outta at hotmail.com Thu Aug 19 09:03:02 2004 From: ghetta_outta at hotmail.com (Ghetta Life) Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 14:03:02 +0000 Subject: MMV Message-ID: >From: pynchonoid > >Needa Life: > >There's a reason it was left out of Slow Learner. > >...and you don't know what that is. There are none so blind... Ghetta _________________________________________________________________ Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 From r.romeo at atlanticphilanthropies.org Thu Aug 19 09:26:02 2004 From: r.romeo at atlanticphilanthropies.org (Richard Romeo) Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 10:26:02 -0400 Subject: Wood on Current Fiction Message-ID: <55B62A3E95D99F4FBEC800D73AC2F2536EBDDC@nyc1a.local.atlanticphilanthropies.org> Wood's argument reminded me of Robert Coover's idea that writers should never create a novel or fiction that could be filmed. One could argue that much of current fiction goes against that dictum. Is a novel worse for ware if it can be easily replaced or easily translated into another medium? Interesting question in my mind rich -----Original Message----- From: owner-pynchon-l at waste.org [mailto:owner-pynchon-l at waste.org] On Behalf Of Malignd Sent: Thursday, August 19, 2004 9:53 AM To: pynchon-l at waste.org Subject: Re: Wood on Current Fiction <> "Menaces" seems a little overwrought. In any case, he seems in this to be missing the aspect of context and perspective. The treatments of these topics will be different when considered in the context of a novel, where the strictures of scholarship and rules of journalism are loosened and the topics treated more subjectively. Considered thus, the argument that other mediums treat these topics "better" is far from obvious. It will depend entirely on the talent and desired ends of the particular novelist. This is not, however, to endorse the argument often made here that Pynchon's novels or those of any other writer can or should be read as journalism or scholarship or history. In that case the menace is not to fiction but to rational thinking on those topics. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From lycidas2 at earthlink.net Thu Aug 19 09:29:00 2004 From: lycidas2 at earthlink.net (Terrance) Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 10:29:00 -0400 Subject: Roy Orbison: Mercy, Venice & Viena Message-ID: <4124B92C.DCFA1190@earthlink.net> Otto sez, "So concluding from this I'd say our discussion here already proves that it's a good story." What's a good story? I don't think we have established a definition of a "good story." Moreover, we've not discussed the story. In fact, there seems to be very little interest in the story itself. The Pynchon-List is nothing more than piss-poor and cranky literary criticism disguised as discussion of Pynchon and his published works. I can play that. But we've been there and done that. It's Deja Vu all over again and again and again. Even if one accepts that Monroe's method is and excellent approach to Pynchon's works and to literature generally (as I do), the story doesn't merit the kind of line by line explication that we are subjecting it to. Paul Nightingale, pulling another rabbit out of Faucalt's hat, argues that those of us attempting to quash this tedious and protracted colloquium and move onto a novel like GR, are in league with Saint Jerome. Does discussion of MMV helps us understand the novelist who wrote it and a couple-few masterworks (V., GR, M&D)? Surely this sophomoric story is worth as much as the author's letters, diaries, notebooks, prefaces, introductions, editorials, scribblings on the backs of record album jackets, sketches smeared with brown mustard on Yellow Nathan's napkins. Of course, being such careful critics, none are foolish enough to make one-to-one equation between a work of art and a Nathan's napkin. Or perhaps I'm being too critical. Since a work of art is the product of an artist's imagination, an since the imagination works in mysterious ways, who is to say that the mustard smear is not more revealing of the artist's temperament and convictions than any of the primary sources critics are desperate to get their smeary little paws on. Notes: NYP "Acts Of Godzilla" by Jim Knipfel What is a critic and why is he stepping on my Nathan's Napkin? by Fools Gold Pretty Voozman by Roy From lycidas2 at earthlink.net Thu Aug 19 09:37:15 2004 From: lycidas2 at earthlink.net (Terrance) Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 10:37:15 -0400 Subject: Wood on Current Fiction References: <55B62A3E95D99F4FBEC800D73AC2F2536EBDDC@nyc1a.local.atlanticphilanthropies.org> Message-ID: <4124BB1B.9DB00FFE@earthlink.net> Richard Romeo wrote: > > Wood's argument reminded me of Robert Coover's idea that writers should > never create a novel or fiction that could be filmed. One could argue > that much of current fiction goes against that dictum. > > Is a novel worse for ware if it can be easily replaced or easily > translated into another medium? > Interesting question in my mind One could also argue that Coover's statement is stupid. Think about it, what novel can't be filmed? Perhaps the fact that any novel or fiction can be filmed tells us more about film than novels. From ghetta_outta at hotmail.com Thu Aug 19 11:04:59 2004 From: ghetta_outta at hotmail.com (Ghetta Life) Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 16:04:59 +0000 Subject: m&m's in V Message-ID: Lots of pigs in Pynchon's writings, especially in GR. The pig represents many things, and we know (from Krissie's account) that Pynchon LIKES pigs. 1. In the ancient Greek world they were symbolic of fertility: "Thesmophoria: An annual three-day festival which was held in honour of Demeter Thesmophoros, observed in various part of Greece. It is a festival where the rites were carried out by women, and the purpose was to ensure the fertility of the land, so that good crop would be harvested. The women participating in the rituals had to fast and observe their chastity for several days. The rite was supposed to symbolised the abduction of Kore (Persephone), daughter of Demeter, and of the the time she must spend on the surface and in the Underworld. So on the first day, pigs was thrown into a pit or underground chamber. What remains that are left and not eaten by snakes, and before it had time to rot, the remains are then brought back up by women who had fasted. The pigs' remains are then place on the altar, in the hope that there are good crop this year. The second day involved with women fasting, in remembrance to the time that Demeter was wandering and mourning over the loss of her daughter. On the third day, the women spent the day giving gifts to children and praying for blessing on family. They also prayed for good crops. On this day, it was to commemorate Demeter reunion with her daughter, ending the famine and failed crops." 2. In GR pigs are directly associated with the "preterite," those doomed ones, being taken to slaughter. Thus a preserved dead pig would not be a good thing to have about the house. It's fertility has been killed and it's slaughter displayed as "art." It is a symbol of stagnation. Ghetta >From: "Joseph Tracy" > Pig fetus is tacked to door( this ain't the innocent lambs blood that >might ward off the Angelo of death, that host will be making his exodus in >the nick of time. > >I would like to hear a bit of discussion of the pig thing in P's writing. _________________________________________________________________ STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From davemarc at panix.com Thu Aug 19 10:20:53 2004 From: davemarc at panix.com (davemarc) Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 11:20:53 -0400 Subject: MMV Quality References: Message-ID: <007501c4860b$08e368e0$2fc654a6@gmsc20b> > >Ghetta > > >There's a reason it was left out of Slow Learner. There's at least one reason it was published in Epoch. d. From sims at ezpzapps.com Thu Aug 19 12:18:31 2004 From: sims at ezpzapps.com (sims) Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 19:18:31 +0200 Subject: m&m's in V In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Representations of pigs (along with other domesticated animals) have been found in Neolithic temples and are some of the finest artwork from the period. The following link shows a procession of animals which features a ram leading followed by a pig and then sheep and/or goats. This neolithic artwork can be seen in the Museum of Archaeology, Republic Street, Valletta, Malta. This street is parallel and one street over from Strait Street btw ;-) http://web.infinito.it/utenti/m/malta_mega_temples/stattuet/animal/smlanpro.html atb sims >Lots of pigs in Pynchon's writings, especially in GR. The pig >represents many things, and we know (from Krissie's account) that >Pynchon LIKES pigs. > >1. In the ancient Greek world they were symbolic of fertility: > >"Thesmophoria: > >An annual three-day festival which was held in honour of Demeter >Thesmophoros, observed in various part of Greece. It is a festival >where the rites were carried out by women, and the purpose was to >ensure the fertility of the land, so that good crop would be >harvested. The women participating in the rituals had to fast and >observe their chastity for several days. > >The rite was supposed to symbolised the abduction of Kore >(Persephone), daughter of Demeter, and of the the time she must >spend on the surface and in the Underworld. So on the first day, >pigs was thrown into a pit or underground chamber. What remains that >are left and not eaten by snakes, and before it had time to rot, the >remains are then brought back up by women who had fasted. The pigs' >remains are then place on the altar, in the hope that there are good >crop this year. The second day involved with women fasting, in >remembrance to the time that Demeter was wandering and mourning over >the loss of her daughter. On the third day, the women spent the day >giving gifts to children and praying for blessing on family. They >also prayed for good crops. On this day, it was to commemorate >Demeter reunion with her daughter, ending the famine and failed >crops." > >2. In GR pigs are directly associated with the "preterite," those >doomed ones, being taken to slaughter. > >Thus a preserved dead pig would not be a good thing to have about >the house. It's fertility has been killed and it's slaughter >displayed as "art." It is a symbol of stagnation. > >Ghetta > > >>From: "Joseph Tracy" >> Pig fetus is tacked to door( this ain't the innocent lambs blood >>that might ward off the Angelo of death, that host will be making >>his exodus in the nick of time. >> >>I would like to hear a bit of discussion of the pig thing in P's writing. > >_________________________________________________________________ >STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* >http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From lycidas2 at earthlink.net Thu Aug 19 12:36:13 2004 From: lycidas2 at earthlink.net (Terrance) Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 13:36:13 -0400 Subject: Pickled Pigs & "dung-on-a-twig" (Mistletoe) Message-ID: <4124E50D.A401EAC6@earthlink.net> "Bless the Muggles, they'll go to any length to ignore magic..." http://gardenline.usask.ca/misc/mistleto.html From ottosell at yahoo.de Thu Aug 19 13:47:04 2004 From: ottosell at yahoo.de (Otto) Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 20:47:04 +0200 Subject: Roy Orbison: Mercy, Venice & Viena References: <4124B92C.DCFA1190@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <001a01c4861c$ed0d61e0$0101a8c0@i7t2q2> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Terrance" To: Sent: Thursday, August 19, 2004 4:29 PM Subject: re: Roy Orbison: Mercy, Venice & Viena > Otto sez, > > "So concluding from this I'd say our discussion here already proves > that it's a good story." > > What's a good story? I don't think we have established a definition of a > "good story." http://www.angeltowns.com/members/shortstories/index.html > Moreover, we've not discussed the story. In fact, there seems to be very > little interest in the story itself. I disagree. > The Pynchon-List is nothing more > than piss-poor and cranky literary criticism disguised as discussion of > Pynchon and his published works. I disagree. Otto From megley1 at chartermi.net Thu Aug 19 14:02:38 2004 From: megley1 at chartermi.net (Meg Larson) Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 15:02:38 -0400 Subject: Roy Orbison: Mercy, Venice & Viena References: <4124B92C.DCFA1190@earthlink.net> <001a01c4861c$ed0d61e0$0101a8c0@i7t2q2> Message-ID: <001801c4861f$29ac1c70$0633bc42@mycomputer> Go figure. I leave the PynHead list for a few years, come back, and it's like I never left. It's so heartwarming. Meg Larson > > > The Pynchon-List is nothing more > > than piss-poor and cranky literary criticism disguised as discussion of > > Pynchon and his published works. > > I disagree. > > Otto > From ottosell at yahoo.de Thu Aug 19 14:17:11 2004 From: ottosell at yahoo.de (Otto) Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 21:17:11 +0200 Subject: Roy Orbison: Mercy, Venice & Viena References: <4124B92C.DCFA1190@earthlink.net> <001a01c4861c$ed0d61e0$0101a8c0@i7t2q2> <001801c4861f$29ac1c70$0633bc42@mycomputer> Message-ID: <003c01c48621$220aea80$0101a8c0@i7t2q2> Welcome back! What did you expect, Meg? Terrance, what about this? -- "from Pynchon apocrypha through light discussion of our favourite passages, to litcrit as heavy as you want." Otto ----- Original Message ----- From: "Meg Larson" To: "Otto" ; Sent: Thursday, August 19, 2004 9:02 PM Subject: Re: Roy Orbison: Mercy, Venice & Viena > Go figure. I leave the PynHead list for a few years, come back, and it's > like I never left. > > It's so heartwarming. > > Meg Larson > > > > > > > The Pynchon-List is nothing more > > > than piss-poor and cranky literary criticism disguised as discussion of > > > Pynchon and his published works. > > > > I disagree. > > > > Otto > > From lycidas2 at earthlink.net Thu Aug 19 14:19:51 2004 From: lycidas2 at earthlink.net (Terrance) Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 15:19:51 -0400 Subject: Roy Orbison: Mercy, Venice & Viena References: <4124B92C.DCFA1190@earthlink.net> <001a01c4861c$ed0d61e0$0101a8c0@i7t2q2> Message-ID: <4124FD57.F179E77C@earthlink.net> > > > Moreover, we've not discussed the story. In fact, there seems to be very > > little interest in the story itself. > > I disagree. We've not discussed the story. With the exception of Robert's posts, which were ignored, not a single post during this entire discussion has taken up the story itself. The characters, the themes, the conflicts, the settings, the plot ... the dialogue, the elements of a good story or the lack of such elements, have not been discussed here. More importantly, readers have not engaged in a discussion of the text they are supposed to be reading together. > > > The Pynchon-List is nothing more > > than piss-poor and cranky literary criticism disguised as discussion of > > Pynchon and his published works. > > I disagree. We have an opportunity, if not an obligation, to open the list and expand its membership. I'm convinced that the modus operandi of Pynchon-L is stifling and that the texts that scheduled for discussion are of interest only to a select group of Pynchon critics and fans. I say we toss this plan into the trash and start fresh. Dump this esoteric stuff and start reading the novel that will attract fresh faces and new voices. From ottosell at yahoo.de Thu Aug 19 14:41:50 2004 From: ottosell at yahoo.de (Otto) Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 21:41:50 +0200 Subject: Roy Orbison: Mercy, Venice & Viena References: <4124B92C.DCFA1190@earthlink.net> <001a01c4861c$ed0d61e0$0101a8c0@i7t2q2> <4124FD57.F179E77C@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <005401c48624$9373c900$0101a8c0@i7t2q2> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Terrance" To: "Otto" Cc: Sent: Thursday, August 19, 2004 9:19 PM Subject: Re: Roy Orbison: Mercy, Venice & Viena > > > > > > > > Moreover, we've not discussed the story. In fact, there seems to be very > > > little interest in the story itself. > > > > I disagree. > > We've not discussed the story. With the exception of Robert's posts, > which were ignored, not a single post during this entire discussion has > taken up the story itself. That's not entirely correct. It took me some time to answer his posts but I had to find that essay first (thanks to the long-time p-lister who has send it offlist to me) Rob says about: "Not a bad article." > The characters, the themes, the conflicts, > the settings, the plot ... the dialogue, the elements of a good story or > the lack of such elements, have not been discussed here. More > importantly, readers have not engaged in a discussion of the text they > are supposed to be reading together. > > > > > > > The Pynchon-List is nothing more > > > than piss-poor and cranky literary criticism disguised as discussion of > > > Pynchon and his published works. > > > > I disagree. > > We have an opportunity, if not an obligation, to open the list and > expand its membership. It is an open list, at least I have this impression. There are a lot of new voices. > I'm convinced that the modus operandi of > Pynchon-L is stifling I'm not sure what this modus operandi precisely is, or should be. > and that the texts that scheduled for discussion > are of interest only to a select group of Pynchon critics and fans. > I say we toss this plan into the trash and start fresh. Dump and > start reading the novel that will attract fresh faces and new voices. So it's still GR you're after. I agree, it's his magnum opus. What's "this esoteric stuff" Otto From monropolitan at yahoo.com Thu Aug 19 15:47:19 2004 From: monropolitan at yahoo.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 13:47:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Roy Orbison: Mercy, Venice & Viena In-Reply-To: <4124FD57.F179E77C@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <20040819204719.43869.qmail@web50710.mail.yahoo.com> You whine a lot about a lot of things here, Terrance, but you rarely if ever do anything that seems to be a "better," or even a "different" way of doing things here. Indeed, you are typically among the most oblique, esoteric, inscrutible, and, at times, seemingly irrelevant posters here. You want to start up a GR reading? Then do it. I'll no doubt join in. As will many here. But it's pointless to complain that people aren't doing things your way, the way you think tehy should eb done, whatever. The point of having all these list memebrs, the point of expanding list membership, was, I'm assuming, is, I'm observing, and should be, I'm asserting, to get as much input in as many ways as possible. Again, all mouth, no hit. And I would especially note that precisely the way NOT to encourage discussion here is to spen yr time constantly berating any and all who do post, and that definitely includes Robert's baiting and nitpicking to the point of, respectively, insult and/or annoyance, of various members, active or otherwise, here. Okay, back to, well, what I do. Basic research, eprhaps, but somebody's gotta do it. Stuff for y'all to use, or not. Either way, teh text is still there, feel free to take it up here however you'd like. By the way, I do think Togetherness has been claimed, Tim, but if you find out otherwise, I might actually take a different tack on it than might be expected here. Okay, now having wasted half of what little online time I get today on celaing out a couple/three inboxes and then typing up this little screed ... --- Terrance wrote: > > We have an opportunity, if not an obligation, to > open the list and expand its membership. I'm > convinced that the modus operandi of Pynchon-L is > stifling and that the texts that scheduled for > discussion are of interest only to a select group of Pynchon > critics and fans. I > say we toss this plan into the trash and start > fresh. Dump this esoteric > stuff and start reading the novel that will attract > fresh faces and new > voices. > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From ghetta_outta at hotmail.com Thu Aug 19 15:54:47 2004 From: ghetta_outta at hotmail.com (Ghetta Life) Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 20:54:47 +0000 Subject: LPPM MMV "Fisher of Souls" Message-ID: >From: Terrance > >The Great Fisher Of Souls, the great soldier who went to the Indies and >brought an thousand souls per day to God, was the fearless founding >Jesuit. Yup, Pynchon never got the great Jesuit education, but it seems >he didn't need one. In any event, he remains in awe of the Jesuits. And >why not? Why not? Well let's consider the Heart of Darkness and the exploitation behind the fishing. As you said, fishers are hunters. But they were ruthless, dedicated hunters, weren't they? What does Pynchon feel/express about the Jewish side of this family unit? Ghetta _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus From monropolitan at yahoo.com Thu Aug 19 15:55:36 2004 From: monropolitan at yahoo.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 13:55:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: LPPM MMV "That Bitch Considine" Message-ID: <20040819205536.14708.qmail@web50709.mail.yahoo.com> "'Anyway,' she said, 'it's Brennan. Brennan and that bitch Considine.' "And she went on to tell how apparently this female economics expert named Debby Considine had returned a week ago from an expedition to Ontario and right away Paul Brennan had started chasing her again. There was a tree outside her apartment house on P St. and Brennan had climbed up this tree and waited for her to collie out and whenever she did he would proclaim his passion for her in loud and improvised blank verse. Usually a small crowd would collect and finally one night the cops came with ladders and hauled him down and dragged him away. "'And who does he call to come down to the precinct to bail him out,' Lucy said. 'Me, is who. Right before payday too. The bastard still hasn't paid me back. And to make matters worse he already had a record. Krinkles Porcino, that's Paul's roommate, got engaged to this girl Monica back around February. The two kids were really in love, and Paul was fond of both of them, so that when Sybil--she was living with David at the time--started running after Krinkles and threatening to break the thing up--well anyway she finally threw this big bitch scene with Paul in the lobby of the Mayflower and Paul ended up slugging her with a vodka bottle he happened to be carrying, and they got him for assault. And of course David had a bad time of it because he hates to get involved in anything, but Sam Fleischmann, who's hated Paul's guts ever since Paul sold him $100 worth of phony uranium stock, felt so sorry for David that he started writing poison pen letters to Sybil, dumping all over Paul. He'd write them in the morning right after we got up, while I made breakfast, and we'd both laugh and laugh because it was so much fun.' "'Oh,' Siegel said, 'ha, ha.'" (MMV, pp. 6-7) Thanks again to John Bailey ... Note that female characters in this story are frequently given only a first name, (Debby Considine is the exception), while male characters are given a surname or full name. [...] �Debby Considine� � consorting? As in, Deb-like consorting? �Krinkles Porcino� � Krinkles seem to be some sort of cookie, and porcini are a kind of mushroom. Unless there�s a porcine reference in there somewhere, I think that will do. �Monica� � Now, we aren�t told too much about Monica, seeing as how she�s just one of the bit-players in Lucy�s convoluted saga. But I did notice that Lucy�s tale ends with �The girl�s a saint�, and so whimsically googling St Monica I found her to be the mother of St. Augustine, and also an interesting patron saint in her own right. She�s patron of sons & husbands who�ve gone astray (her own husband being a monster, and Augustine a self-confessed lazy little pig for much of his life), and more specifically patron saint of: abuse victims, alcoholics, difficult marriages, victims of adultery or unfaithfulness, widows and more, though my favourite is ... Patron Saint of Disappointing Children. �Sybil� � In Greek myth, the sybil was a prophet-figure (there�s also a tarot deck named after her). �Sam Fleischmann� - �Meatman� or maybe �Fleshman�, though it�s hardly a rare or unusual name. http://waste.org/mail/?list=pynchon-l&month=0303&msg=77296 Okay, shortcutting here in the interests of getting on with this thing, so ... _______________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Win 1 of 4,000 free domain names from Yahoo! Enter now. http://promotions.yahoo.com/goldrush From monropolitan at yahoo.com Thu Aug 19 16:28:06 2004 From: monropolitan at yahoo.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 14:28:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: LPPM MMV "The Badlands of the Heart" Message-ID: <20040819212806.75704.qmail@web50702.mail.yahoo.com> "She went on in the same way for fifteen minutes more, layng bare, like a clumsy brain surgeon, synapses and convolutions which should never have been exposed, revealing for Siegel the anatomy of a disease more serious than he had suspected: the badlands of the heart, in which shadows, and crisscrossed threads of inaccurate self-analysis and Freudian fallacy, and passages where the light and perspective were tricky, all threw you into that heightened hysterical edginess of the sort of nightmare it is possible to have where your eyes are open and everything in the scene is familiar, yet where, flickering behind the edge of the closet door, hidden under the chair in the corner, is this je ne sais quoi de sinistre which sends you shouting into wakefulness. "Until finally one of Brennan's friends, whom Lucy introduced as Vincent, wandered in and informed them that somebody had already walked through the French windows without opening them ...." (MMV, p. 7) "the badlands of the heart" Main Entry: bad�land Pronunciation: 'bad-"land Function: noun : a region marked by intricate erosional sculpturing, scanty vegetation, and fantastically formed hills -- usually used in plural http://m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary Located in southwestern South Dakota, Badlands National Park consists of 244,000 acres of sharply eroded buttes, pinnacles and spires ... http://www.nps.gov/badl/ "crisscrossed threads" Main Entry: text Pronunciation: 'tekst Function: noun Etymology: Middle English, from Middle French texte, from Medieval Latin textus, from Latin, texture, context, from texere to weave -- more at TECHNICAL 1 a (1) : the original words and form of a written or printed work (2) : an edited or emended copy of an original work b : a work containing such text .... [...] 8 a : something written or spoken considered as an object to be examined, explicated, or deconstructed b : something likened to a text http://m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=text But any specific "innacurate self-anaylses" and/or "Freudian fallcies" here? Let me know ... "light and perspective" Main Entry: chiar�oscu�ro Pronunciation: -'skyur-(")O, -'skur- Function: noun Inflected Form(s): plural -ros Etymology: Italian, from chiaro clear, light + oscuro obscure, dark 1 : pictorial representation in terms of light and shade without regard to color 2 a : the arrangement or treatment of light and dark parts in a pictorial work of art b : the interplay or contrast of dissimilar qualities (as of mood or character) 3 : a 16th century woodcut technique involving the use of several blocks to print different tones of the same color; also : a print made by this technique 4 : the interplay of light and shadow on or as if on a surface 5 : the quality of being veiled or partly in shadow http://m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=chiaroscuro "heightened hysterical edginess" Cf. ... "She could, at this stage of things, recognize signals like that, as the epilectic is said to--an odor, color, pure piercing grace note announcing his seizure. Afterward it is only this signal, really dross, this secular announcement, and never what is revealed during the attack, that he remembers. Oedipa wondered whether, at the end of this (if it were supposed to end), she too might not be left with only compiled memories of clues, announcements, intimations, but never the central truth itself, which must somehow each time be too bright for her memory to hold; which must always blaze out, destroying its own message irreversibly, leaving an overexposed blank when the ordinary world came back ...." (Lot 49, p. 76) "je ne sais quoi de sinistre" Main Entry: je ne sais quoi Pronunciation: zh&-n&-"sA-'kw� Function: noun Etymology: French, literally, I know not what : something that cannot be adequately described or expressed http://m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=je+ne+sais+quoi I.e., "something [of the] sinister that cannot be adequately described or expressed." Tres sublime ... Vincent VINCENT m Usage: English, French, Dutch, Danish, Swedish Pronounced: VIN-sent (English), ven-SAWN (French) >From the Roman name Vincentius, which was from Latin vincere "to conquer". This was the name of several saints.... http://www.behindthename.com/nm/v2.html#vincent E.g. ... http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15434a.htm http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15434b.htm http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15434c.htm "French windows" Main Entry: French window Function: noun : a pair of casement windows that reaches to the floor, opens in the middle, and is placed in an exterior wall Main Entry: de�fen�es�tra�tion Pronunciation: (")dE-"fe-n&-'strA-sh&n Function: noun Etymology: de- + Latin fenestra window : a throwing of a person or thing out of a window - de�fen�es�trate /(")dE-'fe-n&-"strAt/ transitive verb http://m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary Cf., e.g., ... "'... it's become your MO, diving through windows ...'" (VL, Ch. 1, p. 8) __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From trailerman at blueyonder.co.uk Thu Aug 19 16:36:29 2004 From: trailerman at blueyonder.co.uk (JL) Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 22:36:29 +0100 Subject: Lemony Snicket (slight P content) Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20040819220601.00b36a70@pop3.blueyonder.co.uk> well for the last few months my daughter and I have been enjoying "A Series of Unfortunate Events" by Lemony Snicket: the trials and tribulations of the luckless Baudelaire orphans and their efforts to escape the clutches of evil Count Olaf. it's very funny and quite gripping; tonight we reached Chapter Nine of Book The Sixth: "The Ersatz Elevator". couldn't resist sharing this with you ... ' "I don't see how," Klaus said, his eyes looking worried behind his glasses. "There's only one copy of the catalog, and it's pretty complicated. Each of the items is called a lot, and the catalog lists each lot with a description and a guess at what the highest bid may be. I've read up to Lot #49, which is a valuable postage stamp." "Well, Gunther can't hide the Quagmires in a postage stamp," Violet said. "You can skip that lot." ' If you know what happens at the In Auction, please don't spoil it for us. JL ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ' it's the hard-knock life for us ' ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From MalignD at aol.com Thu Aug 19 16:44:08 2004 From: MalignD at aol.com (MalignD at aol.com) Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 17:44:08 -0400 Subject: Wood on Current Fiction Message-ID: <55B3CB72.5D357574.00184334@aol.com> <> I like Coover's formulation better that Woods's, other than the word "never," speaking, as it does, to the issues both of art and commerce. And, although it's probably true that any novel can be filmed (and although there is always the possibility of someone brilliant waiting to prove you wrong), it's difficult to see how some novels could be equalled or improved in filming it, which I assume is at least part of Coover's point -- one art form losing ground to another for one or more of a variety of reasons. A film of The Unnamable? On the other hand, had Coover his way, we wouldn't have the Godfather movies. From jbor at bigpond.com Thu Aug 19 17:26:54 2004 From: jbor at bigpond.com (jbor) Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 08:26:54 +1000 Subject: MMV: Context In-Reply-To: <007501c4860b$08e368e0$2fc654a6@gmsc20b> Message-ID: >>>> There's a reason it was left out of Slow Learner. Yes, and it's a brain-numbingly perverse argument which speculates that Pynchon left it out of _Slow Learner_ -- and that he doesn't even mention it in the 'Intro' even though he does mention his connection with Baxter Hathaway, who published it -- because he (i.e. Pynchon) believes it's a good story. best From ottosell at yahoo.de Thu Aug 19 18:00:57 2004 From: ottosell at yahoo.de (Otto) Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 01:00:57 +0200 Subject: MMV: Context References: Message-ID: <002d01c48640$64f19780$0101a8c0@i7t2q2> ----- Original Message ----- From: "jbor" To: Sent: Friday, August 20, 2004 12:26 AM Subject: Re: MMV: Context > >>>> There's a reason it was left out of Slow Learner. > > Yes, and it's a brain-numbingly perverse argument which speculates that > Pynchon left it out of _Slow Learner_ -- and that he doesn't even mention it > in the 'Intro' even though he does mention his connection with Baxter > Hathaway, who published it -- because he (i.e. Pynchon) believes it's a good > story. > > best > This still leaves the question open why this story is so much worse than for example "The Small Rain." I disagree that his use of references here is "ostentatious and often gratuitous" and I also disagree that it "suffers from precisely the same pretentiousness that it satirises in the shape of the partygoers (...)." There are no arguments given for this opinion. Fact is we have no information at all why it is left out, so everything about this point is speculation, and we cannot take the mere fact that it's been left out to conclude that he thought it's so bad that including it in SL would damage his reputation. What harm would have been done if it had been included? Otto From ottosell at yahoo.de Thu Aug 19 18:53:54 2004 From: ottosell at yahoo.de (Otto) Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 01:53:54 +0200 Subject: the usual Pynchon-mention Message-ID: <003101c48647$ca53b520$0101a8c0@i7t2q2> Even fictile readers may be oblivious to fictional multivalence Oblivion -- by David Foster Wallace Reviewed by Jim Fuquay "The question is whether there's much beyond his literary gymnastics. Readers of a certain age might recall their college-age introduction to Thomas Pynchon's Gravity's Rainbow or William Burroughs' Naked Lunch or the music of John Cage. Never got the whole post-modernism thing? Me neither." http://www.philly.com/mld/philly/entertainment/9436562.htm?1c From megley1 at chartermi.net Thu Aug 19 19:16:03 2004 From: megley1 at chartermi.net (Meg Larson) Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 20:16:03 -0400 Subject: Roy Orbison: Mercy, Venice & Viena References: <4124B92C.DCFA1190@earthlink.net> <001a01c4861c$ed0d61e0$0101a8c0@i7t2q2> <001801c4861f$29ac1c70$0633bc42@mycomputer> <003c01c48621$220aea80$0101a8c0@i7t2q2> Message-ID: <002b01c4864a$ed3fa690$0633bc42@mycomputer> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Otto" To: Sent: Thursday, August 19, 2004 3:17 PM Subject: Re: Roy Orbison: Mercy, Venice & Viena > Welcome back! What did you expect, Meg? > "The bad dream I used to have ll the time, about the car lot, remember that? I could never even tell you about it. But I can now. It doesn't bother me anymore. It was only that sign in the lot, that's what scared me. In the dream I'd be going about a normal day's business and suddenly, with no warning, there'd be that sign . . . N.A.D.A. Just this creaking metal sign that said nada, nada, against the blue sky . . . I used to wake up hollering." :-) M. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From megley1 at chartermi.net Thu Aug 19 19:31:54 2004 From: megley1 at chartermi.net (Meg Larson) Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 20:31:54 -0400 Subject: Wood on Current Fiction References: <55B3CB72.5D357574.00184334@aol.com> Message-ID: <006d01c4864d$22aad000$0633bc42@mycomputer> ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Thursday, August 19, 2004 5:44 PM Subject: Re: Wood on Current Fiction > <> > > I like Coover's formulation better that Woods's, other than the word "never," speaking, as it does, to the issues both of art and commerce. And, although it's probably true that any novel can be filmed (and although there is always the possibility of someone brilliant waiting to prove you wrong), it's difficult to see how some novels could be equalled or improved in filming it, which I assume is at least part of Coover's point -- one art form losing ground to another for one or more of a variety of reasons. A film of The Unnamable? > > On the other hand, had Coover his way, we wouldn't have the Godfather movies. I re-read The Godfather every few years--it's a fav, obviously--and it's prolly one of the few novels that I can read without seeing the movie in my head. The movies (at least the first two)stand on their own, but for some reason, they don't intrude upon my reading. My son and I read a lot of pop fiction together, and the blanket statement I can prolly safely make is that most of it is written for the screen, so to speak. If. indeed ". . . [this] is at least part of Coover's point -- one art form losing ground to another for one or more of a variety of reasons", then this smacks, in part, of elitism--he's lamenting the loss of status, not the inequality of art as a form. Maybe the question is not what novel can't be filmed, but what novel shouldn't be filmed. Does a novel need to be filmed? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From monropolitan at yahoo.com Thu Aug 19 19:55:18 2004 From: monropolitan at yahoo.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 17:55:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Wood on Current Fiction In-Reply-To: <006d01c4864d$22aad000$0633bc42@mycomputer> Message-ID: <20040820005518.46702.qmail@web50707.mail.yahoo.com> I've long thought that, as with photography and painting, so went the cinema and literature. Either one abandoned the field for what proved to be even more fertile territory (Impressionism, Cubism, et al.), or one reasserted oneself with a vengeance (e.g., photorealism). Or, in the case of lit'rachure, one wrote with the "Now a Major Motion Picture" ed. in mind (King, Chrichton, Clancy). But ... http://imdb.com/title/tt0062414/ Vs. ... http://imdb.com/title/tt0092843/ Note that, either way, they both end with the etxt in voiceover. Me, I'm waiting for Finnegans Wake ... --- Meg Larson wrote: > > Maybe the question is not what novel can't be > filmed, but what novel shouldn't be filmed. Does a > novel need to be filmed? __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From ottosell at yahoo.de Thu Aug 19 20:09:50 2004 From: ottosell at yahoo.de (Otto) Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 03:09:50 +0200 Subject: Roy Orbison: Mercy, Venice & Viena References: <4124B92C.DCFA1190@earthlink.net> <001a01c4861c$ed0d61e0$0101a8c0@i7t2q2> <001801c4861f$29ac1c70$0633bc42@mycomputer> <003c01c48621$220aea80$0101a8c0@i7t2q2> <002b01c4864a$ed3fa690$0633bc42@mycomputer> Message-ID: <005101c48652$662ecd40$0101a8c0@i7t2q2> Sounds like Mucho Maas having a bad day :-) N.A.D.A. describes precisely what is going on tonight in my business. But seriously, don't judge too fast. O. > > Welcome back! What did you expect, Meg? > "The bad dream I used to have ll the time, about the car lot, remember that? I could never even tell you about it. But I can now. It doesn't bother me anymore. It was only that sign in the lot, that's what scared me. In the dream I'd be going about a normal day's business and suddenly, with no warning, there'd be that sign . . . N.A.D.A. Just this creaking metal sign that said nada, nada, against the blue sky . . . I used to wake up hollering." :-) M. From monropolitan at yahoo.com Thu Aug 19 20:38:32 2004 From: monropolitan at yahoo.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 18:38:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: LPPM MMV "Esoteric Language" Message-ID: <20040820013832.90813.qmail@web50709.mail.yahoo.com> "Presumably intelligent talk flickered around the room with the false brightness of heat lightning: in the space of a minute Siegel caught the words 'Zen,' 'San Francisco,' and 'Wittgenstein,' and felt a mild sense of disappointment, almost as if he had expected some esoteric language, something out of Albertus Magnus." (MMV, p. 7) heat lightning Main Entry: heat lightning Function: noun : vivid and extensive flashes of electric light without thunder seen near the horizon especially at the close of a hot day and ascribed to far-off lightning reflected by high clouds http://m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=heat+lightning Zen "'Travelers return'd from the Japanese Islands tell of certain religious Puzzles known as Koan ....'" (M&D, Ch. 3, p. 22) Zen is short for Zen Buddhism. It is sometimes called a religion and sometimes called a philosophy. Choose whichever term you prefer; it simply doesn't matter. Historically, Zen Buddhism originates in the teachings of Siddhartha Gautama. Around 500 B.C. he was a prince in what is now India. At the age of 29, deeply troubled by the suffering he saw around him, he renounced his privileged life to seek understanding. After 6 years of struggling as an ascetic he finally achieved Enlightenment at age 35. After this he was known as the Buddha (meaning roughly "one who is awake"). In a nutshell, he realized that everything is subject to change and that suffering and discontentment are the result of attachment to circumstances and things which, by their nature, are impermanent. By ridding oneself of these attachments, including attachment to the false notion of self or "I", one can be free of suffering. The teachings of the Buddha have, to this day, been passed down from teacher to student. Around 475 A.D. one of these teachers, Bodhidharma, traveled from India to China and introduced the teachings of the Buddha there. In China Buddhism mingled with Taoism. The result of this mingling was the Ch'an School of Buddhism. Around 1200 A.D. Ch'an Buddhism spread from China to Japan where it is called (at least in translation) Zen Buddhism. http://www.ibiblio.org/zen/faq.html And see, here, e.g., ... MacAdams, Lewis. Birth of the Cool: Beat, Bebop, and the American Avant-Garde. New York: The Free Press, 2001 Ch. 4, "The Bodhisattvas of Cool," pp. 145-81 ... San Francisco "'In San Francisco; there's none--'" (Lot 49, p. 69) http://www.ci.sf.ca.us/ "In late '40s and '50s, San Francisco was the center of American poetic style ..." (MacAdams, Birth of the Cool, p. 15) "At the simplest level, it had to do with language. We were encouraged from many directions--Kerouac and the Beat writers ..." (SL, "Intro," pp. 6-7) http://waste.org/mail/?list=pynchon-l&month=0211&msg=72330 Wittgenstein "DIGEWOELDTIMSTEALALENSWTASNDEURFUALRLIKST" (V., Ch. 9, p. 295) "1 - Die Welt ist alles, was der Fall ist." http://www.ottosell.de/witt.htm Wittgenstein, Ludwig Josef Johann (1889-1951) 380; Austrian-born British philosopher whose highly influential works dealt with mathematics and with language. He served with the Austrian army in WWI and was taken prisoner on the Italian front in 1918; "The world is all that the case is," 278; song, 288-89; See also Tractatus; http://www.hyperarts.com/pynchon/v/alpha/w.html#wittgenstein Tractatus 1921 work by Wittgenstein on the nature and limits of language; opening proposition: "The world is all that the case is. The world is the totality of facts, not of things." 278; song, 288-89; See also Wittgenstein http://www.hyperarts.com/pynchon/v/alpha/t.html#tractatus __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From monropolitan at yahoo.com Thu Aug 19 20:44:10 2004 From: monropolitan at yahoo.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 18:44:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: LPPM MMV "Esoteric Language" Message-ID: <20040820014410.14893.qmail@web50704.mail.yahoo.com> Oops, cut off ... St. Albertus Magnus Known as Albert the Great; scientist, philosopher, and theologian, born c. 1206; died at Cologne, 15 November 1280. He is called "the Great", and "Doctor Universalis" (Universal Doctor), in recognition of his extraordinary genius and extensive knowledge, for he was proficient in every branch of learning cultivated in his day, and surpassed all his contemporaries, except perhaps Roger Bacon (1214-94), in the knowledge of nature.... http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01264a.htm And see as well, e.g., .... http://www-gap.dcs.st-and.ac.uk/~history/Mathematicians/Albertus.html http://www.albertthegreat.com/stalbert.phtml http://www.themystica.com/mystica/articles/m/magnus_albertus.html http://www.occultopedia.com/a/albertus_magnus.htm http://www.catholic-forum.com/saints/sainta11.htm --- Dave Monroe wrote: > > "Presumably intelligent talk flickered around the > room with the false brightness of heat lightning: > in the space of a minute Siegel caught the > words 'Zen,' 'San Francisco,' and 'Wittgenstein,' > and felt a mild sense of disappointment, almost as > if he had expected some esoteric language, > something out of Albertus Magnus." (MMV, p. 7) __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Y! Messenger - Communicate in real time. Download now. http://messenger.yahoo.com From pynchonoid at yahoo.com Thu Aug 19 20:49:22 2004 From: pynchonoid at yahoo.com (pynchonoid) Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 18:49:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: MMV: Context In-Reply-To: <002d01c48640$64f19780$0101a8c0@i7t2q2> Message-ID: <20040820014922.25430.qmail@web40703.mail.yahoo.com> --- Otto: > Fact is we have no information at all why it is left > out, so everything > about this point is speculation, Yes that was precisely the point. Sheer speculation. ===== http://pynchonoid.org "everything connects" _______________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Win 1 of 4,000 free domain names from Yahoo! Enter now. http://promotions.yahoo.com/goldrush From monropolitan at yahoo.com Thu Aug 19 20:55:04 2004 From: monropolitan at yahoo.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 18:55:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: LPPM MMV "Irving Loon" Message-ID: <20040820015504.71850.qmail@web50701.mail.yahoo.com> "Beside the pig foetus there was only one other really incongruous note in the whole scene: a swarthy looking person in torn khakis and an old corduroy coat who stood in one corner like some memento mori, withdrawn and melancholy. 'That's Considine's latest,' Lucy said, 'an Indian she brought back from Ontario. Boy, what a hunk.' "'He looks sad,' Siegel said. Somebody handed Siegel an ambiguous mixture in an old-fashioned glass and he sipped it automatically, grimaced and set it down. 'His name is Irving Loon,' she said dreamily. "'Irving what?' said Siegel. "'Loon. He's Ojibwa. Oh there's Paul. Talking to Considine the bastard.'" (MMV, p. 7) memento mori Main Entry: me�men�to mo�ri Pronunciation: m&-'men-tO-'mOr-E, -'mor-E Function: noun Inflected Form(s): plural memento mori Etymology: Latin, remember that you must die : a reminder of mortality; especially : DEATH's-head http://m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=memento+mori Irving Irving, of course, is one of those standard comedy names, and it's no more comedic than when at the tail end of a list of other names, e.g., "Gilligan's Island"'s The Mosquitoes: Bingo, Bango, Bongo and Irving (who, minus Bingo, were The Wellingtons, i.e., the vocal group singing "The Ballad of Gilligan's Island" each and ev'ry episode) ... http://www.gilligansisle.com/mosq.html But it seems to loom particularly large in Pynchon's own comedic legend. Schoenmaker's nurse, "called, by some associative freak, Irving" (p. 45). But also, in re: "a series of letters, more than 120 in all, that the famously reclusive author wrote to his former agent, Candida Donadio, between 1963 and 1982" ... "The letters also display flashes of Pynchon's baroque wit. When Who's Who asked him to supply a biographical note, the Times writes, Pynchon debated replying that his parents were named Irving Pynchon and Guadalupe Ibarguengotia and that he was 'named Exotic Dancers Man of the Year in 1957' and 'regional coordinator for the March of Edsel Owners on Washington (MEOW) in 1961." http://www.salon.com/media/1998/03/10media.html http://waste.org/mail/?list=pynchon-l&month=0103&msg=53620 Loon Main Entry: loon Function: noun Etymology: of Scandinavian origin; akin to Old Norse lOmr loon : any of several large birds (genus Gavia) of Holarctic regions that feed on fish by diving and have their legs placed far back under the body for optimal locomotion underwater Main Entry: loon Pronunciation: 'l�n Function: noun Etymology: Middle English loun 1 : LOUT, IDLER 2 chiefly Scottish : BOY 3 a : a crazy person b : SIMPLETON http://m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary Ojibwa Main Entry: Ojib�wa Variant(s): or Ojib�way or Ojib�we /O-'jib-(")wA/ Function: noun Inflected Form(s): plural Ojibwa or Ojibwas or Ojibway or Ojibways or Ojibwe or Ojibwes Etymology: Ojibwa ocipwe., an Ojibwa band 1 : a member of an American Indian people of the region around Lake Superior and westward 2 : an Algonquian language of the Ojibwa people http://m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=ojibwa And see as well, e.g., ... http://www.native-languages.org/chippewa.htm http://www.encyclopedia.com/html/O/Ojibwa.asp http://lucy.ukc.ac.uk/EthnoAtlas/Hmar/Cult_dir/Culture.7862 "Marrone" A la "marron," "pig"? Let me know ... __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From ottosell at yahoo.de Thu Aug 19 22:00:26 2004 From: ottosell at yahoo.de (Otto) Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 05:00:26 +0200 Subject: MMV: Context References: <20040820014922.25430.qmail@web40703.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <006b01c48661$d9709400$0101a8c0@i7t2q2> ----- Original Message ----- From: "pynchonoid" To: Sent: Friday, August 20, 2004 3:49 AM Subject: Re: MMV: Context > > --- Otto: > > Fact is we have no information at all why it is left > > out, so everything > > about this point is speculation, > > Yes that was precisely the point. Sheer speculation. > But please tell me, Doug: what do you think of the story? And what do you think why it is left out? Otto From davemarc at panix.com Thu Aug 19 23:19:43 2004 From: davemarc at panix.com (davemarc) Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 00:19:43 -0400 Subject: MMV: Context References: Message-ID: <00f101c4866d$50f04f60$2fc654a6@gmsc20b> From: jbor > Yes, and it's a brain-numbingly perverse argument which speculates that > Pynchon left it out of _Slow Learner_ -- and that he doesn't even mention it > in the 'Intro' even though he does mention his connection with Baxter > Hathaway, who published it -- because he (i.e. Pynchon) believes it's a good > story. > Has anyone here made such a brain-numbingly perverse speculative argument? d. From pynchonoid at yahoo.com Thu Aug 19 23:56:51 2004 From: pynchonoid at yahoo.com (pynchonoid) Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 21:56:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: MMV: Context In-Reply-To: <006b01c48661$d9709400$0101a8c0@i7t2q2> Message-ID: <20040820045651.56478.qmail@web40712.mail.yahoo.com> It's an interesting story. Obviously worth reading and discussing as part of the Pynchonian oeuvre and in its own right. I expect that Pynchon made a conscious decision not to include it in Slow Learner and I don't presume to know why he made that choice. --- Otto wrote:> But please tell me, Doug: what do you think of the > story? And what do you > think why it is left out? > ===== http://pynchonoid.org "everything connects" __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From keithsz at sbcglobal.net Fri Aug 20 00:17:43 2004 From: keithsz at sbcglobal.net (Keith McMullen) Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 22:17:43 -0700 Subject: MMV: Context In-Reply-To: <20040820045651.56478.qmail@web40712.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20040820045651.56478.qmail@web40712.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <43CFF1FC-F268-11D8-9E15-000A95BDCA92@sbcglobal.net> >>>It's an interesting story. Obviously worth reading and discussing as part of the Pynchonian oeuvre and in its own right. I expect that Pynchon made a conscious decision not to include it in Slow Learner and I don't presume to know why he made that choice.<<< Maybe he didn't want to spoil a collection of sophomoric, shitty stories with an interesting one. From jbor at bigpond.com Fri Aug 20 06:01:10 2004 From: jbor at bigpond.com (jbor) Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 21:01:10 +1000 Subject: MMV: Context In-Reply-To: Message-ID: King, Vincent. 'Giving Destruction a Name and a Face: Thomas Pynchon's "Mortality and Mercy in Vienna"'. Studies in Short Fiction 35.1, 1998, pp. 13-21. As I mentioned in a previous post, I'm happy to forward a pdf to anyone who would like to read it. > King says that there is a "general > consensus" that 'MMV' is "one of Pynchon's best short stories", King states his case in a footnote: "Pynchon's decision to omit 'Mortality and Mercy' from _Slow Learner_ may be attributed to the *perception*, voiced by White, that the story validates Loon's violence." (14) They're his italics, and he's referring to Allon White's 1981 article in _Critical Quarterly_. It's a thoroughly illogical claim. There are no grounds at all to say that Pynchon had read Allon White's essay or that he was cowed by it into leaving 'MMV' out of the compilation of his early short stories. If it were the case that White and other readers had misunderstood or misinterpreted the story (which starts to open up various other cans of worms regarding authorial intention and reader response, and whether or not the quality of a story might have something to do with how well, or whether, it communicates what the author intended it to), surely Pynchon would have included the story in _SL_, or at least mentioned it and its reception (as he does with 'Entropy' for example), in order to try to disabuse the reading public of the false "*perception*" they hold, or which had been foisted upon them. Worse than this, King's argument lacks internal consistency, because part of his conclusion is that in the story Pynchon has deliberately manipulated the reader to come to this "wrong" perception, that "it is the *reader's* indifference to these signs [i.e. that Siegel is a psychopath] that makes us an accessory to Siegel's crime and allows Pynchon to explore his actual subject: the moral cost of misreading." (16) best PS I agree with Terrance. The constant sniping, off-topic posts and avalanche of cut-and-paste ballast do serve to stifle discussion and deter new subscribers, however many "voices" there might be. Posting a definition of "torero" or informing us who TS Eliot was is a waste of bandwidth. The name "Lucy" in 'MMV' has no more connection to St Lucy than it does to Lucille Ball or Wordsworth -- or, if it does, that connection is not established simply by googling up a bio. Signal to noise ratio for August 2004 stands at no more than 1-2%. My 2 cents. From davemarc at panix.com Fri Aug 20 07:57:08 2004 From: davemarc at panix.com (davemarc) Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 08:57:08 -0400 Subject: MMV: Context References: <20040820045651.56478.qmail@web40712.mail.yahoo.com> <43CFF1FC-F268-11D8-9E15-000A95BDCA92@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <003e01c486b9$d9c5b0e0$2fc654a6@gmsc20b> Sez Keith of TRP: > > Maybe he didn't want to spoil a collection of sophomoric, shitty > stories with an interesting one. > Ah--so Keith's the one with the brain-numbingly perverse speculative argument! d. From keithsz at sbcglobal.net Fri Aug 20 08:46:56 2004 From: keithsz at sbcglobal.net (Keith McMullen) Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 06:46:56 -0700 Subject: MMV: Context In-Reply-To: <003e01c486b9$d9c5b0e0$2fc654a6@gmsc20b> References: <20040820045651.56478.qmail@web40712.mail.yahoo.com> <43CFF1FC-F268-11D8-9E15-000A95BDCA92@sbcglobal.net> <003e01c486b9$d9c5b0e0$2fc654a6@gmsc20b> Message-ID: <66E807D4-F2AF-11D8-ABBE-000A95BDCA92@sbcglobal.net> >>>Ah--so Keith's the one with the brain-numbingly perverse speculative argument!<<< More brain-numbed than brain-numbingly. From lycidas2 at earthlink.net Fri Aug 20 08:53:30 2004 From: lycidas2 at earthlink.net (Terrance) Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 09:53:30 -0400 Subject: LET'S GO GRAVITY'S RAINBOW! References: <20040819204719.43869.qmail@web50710.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4126025A.E39951E3@earthlink.net> Dave Monroe wrote: > > You whine a lot about a lot of things here, Terrance, > but you rarely if ever do anything that seems to be a > "better," or even a "different" way of doing things > here. I've not whined. I've proposed an alternative to the benumbing schedule of esoteric texts we are trudging through presently (usage problem). I acknowledge that there was little enthusiasm for my proposal from the old gaurd. However, we did here from half-a-dozen-or-so new bloods. The Old Guard said, 1. I don't get it 2. You don't actually expect me to change my way of doing things here 3. I'll do my thing, but I can't promise anything 4. KNock yourself out and blow our minds and then I'll decide if I want to go 5. You're proposal isn't going to work unless you set it up the way we always have 6. You're too lazy to do it. And besides, you just like to whine I proposed a fast and text-focused reading of GR. The New Blood, in contrast, bleeded for the chance to read the novel that put Pynchon on the top ten list. When I proposed this kind of group reading, I thought that we would need at least a dozen people to commit to reading the novel with an On-Line group over a period of 8-12 months. I asked for volenteers. I did not post a host schedule because posting and filling up a host schedule is a meaningless exercise if your goal is to find 12 committed readers. Indeed, you are typically among the most > oblique, esoteric, inscrutible, and, at times, > seemingly irrelevant posters here. When in Greece ... but you are correct. And, I've enjoyed it from time to time, but even the blackest parasitos must grow weary of wine and pheta. You want to start > up a GR reading? Then do it. I'll no doubt join in. > As will many here. Will you agree to trash the current reading list? But it's pointless to complain > that people aren't doing things your way, the way you > think tehy should eb done, whatever. It's not. I'm making my argument fro trashing the current reading list and reading Gravity's Rainbow. That's my point. Got it? The point of > having all these list memebrs, the point of expanding > list membership, was, I'm assuming, is, I'm observing, > and should be, I'm asserting, to get as much input in > as many ways as possible. Yes, but 99.999999999% of the world has never read these obscure and mediocre texts you have schedules. >Again, all mouth, no hit. Bullshit! I'll google scoop you line for line, Monroe. I've a bigger library and better fingers. So there! Seriously, I enjoy reading a few of your posts from time to time. Look backward to reading them, even, but ... as the Greeks say, two heads are better than one and 12 heads are better than none. And GR is better than anything else. And we shoudl read it ... cause, because because because because because of the wonderful things it does. From ghetta_outta at hotmail.com Fri Aug 20 08:52:59 2004 From: ghetta_outta at hotmail.com (Ghetta Life) Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 13:52:59 +0000 Subject: MMV: Context Message-ID: >From: Keith McMullen > > >>>It's an interesting story. Obviously worth reading and discussing as >part of the Pynchonian oeuvre and in its own right. I expect that Pynchon >made a conscious decision not to include it in Slow Learner and I don't >presume to know why he made that choice.<<< > >Maybe he didn't want to spoil a collection of sophomoric, shitty stories >with an interesting one. Sometimes I have a hard time figuring out if you're joking or not. Do you really feel that MMV is superior to the stories in SL? Do you HAVE an opinion? Ghetta _________________________________________________________________ Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 From ghetta_outta at hotmail.com Fri Aug 20 09:12:54 2004 From: ghetta_outta at hotmail.com (Ghetta Life) Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 14:12:54 +0000 Subject: MMV Message-ID: >From: "Otto" > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "jbor" > > > though there is a sense of smug self-satisfaction in the way that >Pynchon has Siegel leave the shallow and selfish pseudo-bohemians to their >supposed just deserts at the close. > > >In this I disagree. I don't share this sense and I don't think that the >story has a morale like "they were so shallow they deserved to die" or >"they looked too weird, it served them right." But this is precisely what the story communicates. And I completely agree with robert's comment below. It's almost as if Pynchon is describing himself and his own chosen world and wishing to destroy it all out of a deep sense of disatasfaction. At least in his later, better works he develops some sympathy for the world as it is and the characters who occupy it. > > Comment: > > With its ostentatious and often gratuitous references to Shakespeare, >the Bible and gnostic Apocrypha, Jewish funeral traditions and Catholic >church rituals, bullfighting, Dada, Goethe, Eliot, Conrad, Albertus Magnus, >Santayana, Gaugin, foreign language phrases, Ojibwa culture and >psychopathology, and more, the story suffers from precisely the same >pretentiousness that it satirises in the shape of the partygoers babbling >on about "Zen", "San Francisco" and "Wittgenstein" -- perhaps >self-consciously and self-parodically, though, if so, not overtly enough. Bingo! All these references with no point or payoff. No synthesis > > but what is particularly jejune is the way the narrative ultimately >resolves itself in a blood-bath: it's a species of that characteristic and >supposedly shocking "and then the world exploded" climax ending written by >barely-pubescent prodigies ("a pose of ... somber glee at any idea of mass >destruction or decline" as he describes it in SL:13). As I said earlier: hamfisted. >Otto sez: So concluding from this I'd say our discussion here already >proves that it's a good story. No. We are only discussing it because it was written by Pynchon. Otherwise we would never have looked at it twice. Ghetta _________________________________________________________________ Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From ottosell at yahoo.de Fri Aug 20 09:22:08 2004 From: ottosell at yahoo.de (Otto) Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 16:22:08 +0200 Subject: MMV: Context References: <20040820045651.56478.qmail@web40712.mail.yahoo.com> <43CFF1FC-F268-11D8-9E15-000A95BDCA92@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <00d801c486c1$14f30ee0$0101a8c0@i7t2q2> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Keith McMullen" To: "Pynchon Shitlist" Sent: Friday, August 20, 2004 7:17 AM Subject: Re: MMV: Context > >>>It's an interesting story. Obviously worth reading and > discussing as part of the Pynchonian oeuvre and in its > own right. I expect that Pynchon made a conscious > decision not to include it in Slow Learner and I don't > presume to know why he made that choice.<<< > > Maybe he didn't want to spoil a collection of sophomoric, shitty > stories with an interesting one. > As I said: > "Maybe, but this is speculation too, it is left out of "Slow > Learner" because it is spared for a later collection of > stories he considers to be better." > But I've heard rumours that this way of answering Rob's speculation by using the "opposite" speculation was kinda brain-numbingly perverse. Rob: > So low is Pynchon's regard for it that the story is not mentioned -- let > alone included -- in the collection of his early stories published as > _Slow Learner_ (1984). Pynchon describes the stories that have been > included in that collection as "pretentious, goofy and ill-considered" > (4); it's safe to say that he believed that 'MMV' is even worse. > My main point is of course directed against this "it's safe to say" which kills any further discussion. What I'd like to see from someone who is giving such a harsh judgement are some arguments. I don't even claim that it's a good story although I liked it better than any other story from SL except "The Secret Integration" according to my personal taste. What I like about the ending is that the formerly colonised are coming to haunt us. Otto From scuffling at hotmail.com Fri Aug 20 09:42:16 2004 From: scuffling at hotmail.com (Ian Scuffling) Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 10:42:16 -0400 Subject: WSC In-Reply-To: <001801c4861f$29ac1c70$0633bc42@mycomputer> Message-ID: Yeh, remarkable, init? Gives new meaning to "WSC." It actually is touching to see so many familiar names, but how do I know it's really the same people writing (and why do I care)? Henry M -----Original Message----- From: Meg Larson Sent: Thursday, August 19, 2004 3:03 PM To: Otto; pynchon-l at waste.org Subject: Re: Roy Orbison: Mercy, Venice & Viena Go figure. I leave the PynHead list for a few years, come back, and it's like I never left. It's so heartwarming. Meg Larson From ottosell at yahoo.de Fri Aug 20 09:48:04 2004 From: ottosell at yahoo.de (Otto) Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 16:48:04 +0200 Subject: MMV: Context References: Message-ID: <00f101c486c4$b40ed740$0101a8c0@i7t2q2> ----- Original Message ----- From: "jbor" To: Sent: Friday, August 20, 2004 1:01 PM Subject: Re: MMV: Context > King, Vincent. 'Giving Destruction a Name and a Face: Thomas Pynchon's > "Mortality and Mercy in Vienna"'. Studies in Short Fiction 35.1, 1998, pp. > 13-21. > > > King says that there is a "general > > consensus" that 'MMV' is "one of Pynchon's best short stories", It would've been a good thing if King had mentioned the other stories he considers to be good ones. His claim of a "general consensus" is a weak argument. > > King states his case in a footnote: "Pynchon's decision to omit 'Mortality > and Mercy' from _Slow Learner_ may be attributed to the *perception*, voiced > by White, that the story validates Loon's violence." (14) They're his > italics, and he's referring to Allon White's 1981 article in _Critical > Quarterly_. > > It's a thoroughly illogical claim. There are no grounds at all to say that > Pynchon had read Allon White's essay or that he was cowed by it into leaving > 'MMV' out of the compilation of his early short stories. But King doesn't say so. He says very carefully: "may be attributed to the *perception*, voiced by White (...)." I disagree that the story validates the ending. For me it just says that this could happen to careless people if there's an immoral catalysator like Siegel. > If it were the case > that White and other readers had misunderstood or misinterpreted the story > (which starts to open up various other cans of worms regarding authorial > intention and reader response, If the story indeed opens these "cans of worms" it would be a good argument that it isn't such a bad story after all, the "intentional fallacy" isn't what interests me. > and whether or not the quality of a story > might have something to do with how well, or whether, it communicates what > the author intended it to), surely Pynchon would have included the story in > _SL_, or at least mentioned it and its reception (as he does with 'Entropy' > for example), in order to try to disabuse the reading public of the false > "*perception*" they hold, or which had been foisted upon them. > A futile exercise. > Worse than this, King's argument lacks internal consistency, because part of > his conclusion is that in the story Pynchon has deliberately manipulated the > reader to come to this "wrong" perception, that "it is the *reader's* > indifference to these signs [i.e. that Siegel is a psychopath] that makes us > an accessory to Siegel's crime and allows Pynchon to explore his actual > subject: the moral cost of misreading." (16) > Here's the part that you should've quoted: "He (i.e. White) misses the early signs of Siegel's amorality as well as Pynchon's implicit criticism of Siegel's behavior. Most important, White fails to recognize that we misread Siegel because we tend to read, especially in the absence of death (or some equally dramatic situation), indifferently. And indifference, Pynchon shows us, is deadly, both in extreme cases (Loon's attack) as well as in less dramatic ones (evaluating Siegel). In White's haste to distance himself from Siegel's position, he overlooks the fact that it is Pynchon who nudges the reader toward the moral high ground.[sup13]" Yours truly Otto From megley1 at chartermi.net Fri Aug 20 09:56:30 2004 From: megley1 at chartermi.net (Meg Larson) Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 10:56:30 -0400 Subject: WSC References: Message-ID: <007901c486c5$fbe0a7a0$0633bc42@mycomputer> As Lou Reed sez, ya need a busload of faith to get by M. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ian Scuffling" To: Sent: Friday, August 20, 2004 10:42 AM Subject: WSC but how do I know it's really the same people > writing (and why do I care)? > > Henry M > -----Original Message----- > From: Meg Larson > Sent: Thursday, August 19, 2004 3:03 PM > To: Otto; pynchon-l at waste.org > Subject: Re: Roy Orbison: Mercy, Venice & Viena > Go figure. I leave the PynHead list for a few years, come back, and it's > like I never left. > > It's so heartwarming. > > Meg Larson > > From scuffling at hotmail.com Fri Aug 20 10:18:11 2004 From: scuffling at hotmail.com (Ian Scuffling) Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 11:18:11 -0400 Subject: Identity Crises In-Reply-To: <007901c486c5$fbe0a7a0$0633bc42@mycomputer> Message-ID: I generally believe that people are who they say they are. There was a time, though, that a couple of PynHeads insisted that I wasn't me. True, I haven't always been myself, but really... People say that I resemble Lou Reed, but that's usually when I'm wearing a black leather biker jacket. I've always been a Lou fan (no, not a loofah), and was a particular fan of that album. One does need a busload. Henry M -----Original Message----- From: Meg Larson Sent: Friday, August 20, 2004 10:57 AM Subject: Re: WSC As Lou Reed sez, ya need a busload of faith to get by M. From ghetta_outta at hotmail.com Fri Aug 20 10:49:01 2004 From: ghetta_outta at hotmail.com (Ghetta Life) Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 15:49:01 +0000 Subject: MMV: Context Message-ID: >From: "Otto" > >Here's the part that you should've quoted: > >"He (i.e. White) misses the early signs of Siegel's amorality Could someone who agrees with this above point out to us what those "early signs of Siegel's amorality" are. >as well as Pynchon's implicit criticism of Siegel's behavior. As well as "Pynchon's implicit criticism of Siegel's behavior." >Most important, White fails to recognize that we misread Siegel because we >tend to read, especially in the absence of death (or some equally dramatic >situation), indifferently. And indifference, Pynchon shows us, is deadly, >both in extreme cases (Loon's attack) as well as in less dramatic ones >(evaluating Siegel). In White's haste to distance himself from Siegel's >position, he overlooks the fact that it is Pynchon who nudges the reader >toward the moral high ground.[sup13]" I think this quote above is a silly and desperate attempt to rescue this story from itself. Of course we read indifferently, unless something in the fiction moves us to do otherwise. MMV doesn't. So according to this critic, we've fallen into Pynchon's devious trap by not being moved by his subtle fiction. Pardon me, but what crap. Ghetta _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus From WillLayman at comcast.net Fri Aug 20 11:10:22 2004 From: WillLayman at comcast.net (Will Layman) Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 12:10:22 -0400 Subject: An old friend Message-ID: Hey -- I just wanted to reintroduce myself to the group. I saw that Meg Larsen wrote that she'd been gone for a few years and came back to see some old names. I've been gone for years too, but something tingled in the back of my mind. I wonder if someone could give me a few paragraphs on what's been going on, what you've been discussing recently, any news from the publishing world, etc. I probably left the list a little while after good ol' Jules S published his book about us all (if y'all remember that). -- Will Layman (DC teacher, musician, general troublemaker . . . .) From mittelwerk at hotmail.com Fri Aug 20 11:17:05 2004 From: mittelwerk at hotmail.com (Joel Katz) Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 12:17:05 -0400 Subject: Identity Crises Message-ID: yeah, but lou also says: cut the stallion at his mount, and stuff it in his mouth >From: "Ian Scuffling" >To: "Pynchon List" >Subject: Identity Crises >Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 11:18:11 -0400 > >I generally believe that people are who they say they are. There was a >time, though, that a couple of PynHeads insisted that I wasn't me. True, I >haven't always been myself, but really... > >People say that I resemble Lou Reed, but that's usually when I'm wearing a >black leather biker jacket. I've always been a Lou fan (no, not a loofah), >and was a particular fan of that album. One does need a busload. > >Henry M > >-----Original Message----- >From: Meg Larson >Sent: Friday, August 20, 2004 10:57 AM >Subject: Re: WSC > > >As Lou Reed sez, ya need a busload of faith to get by >M. > _________________________________________________________________ Get ready for school! Find articles, homework help and more in the Back to School Guide! http://special.msn.com/network/04backtoschool.armx From ottosell at yahoo.de Fri Aug 20 11:16:13 2004 From: ottosell at yahoo.de (Otto) Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 18:16:13 +0200 Subject: MMV References: Message-ID: <013d01c486d1$04e7bf40$0101a8c0@i7t2q2> > > > > though there is a sense of smug self-satisfaction in the way that > >Pynchon has Siegel leave the shallow and selfish pseudo-bohemians > > to their supposed just deserts at the close. > > > > > >In this I disagree. I don't share this sense and I don't think that the > >story has a morale like "they were so shallow they deserved to die" or > >"they looked too weird, it served them right." > > > But this is precisely what the story communicates. > This only would be the case if Siegel had been presented throughout the story as a nice guy easy to identify with. But the contrary is the case; he's clearly set up as an asshole nobody identifies with. I have a feeling that there's nobody to identify with in that story. But an opportunity to identify with a character isn't what I'm looking after in reading a story or a novel. > And I completely agree > with robert's comment below. It's almost as if Pynchon is describing > himself and his own chosen world and wishing to destroy it all out of a > deep sense of disatasfaction. Fine, I couldn't disagree more. I've never detected this hitlerian attitude & death wish in Pynchon: bis alles in Scherben fällt. This is what King has to say about it: "By the end of the story, however, the reader understands that the careless use of language (the very crime that Pynchon has been accused of), or the refusal to use it at all, can lead to disaster. But if Siegel's moral failure boils down to his careless use of language, the reader's moral failure can be attributed to careless reading. Loon's moral failure stems from his Windigo psychosis, a condition that causes him to identify with a mythological figure who feeds on human flesh. Few of us are in danger of identifying with either Loon or this mythic monster.Yet most readers, despite Pynchon's warnings, identify with Siegel, who is simply a more clever cannibal. Like Loon, then, the reader also suffers from a form of Windigo psychosis.[sup12] To blame Pynchon for this unflattering diagnosis --or simply to refuse to acknowledge it--is itself a moral failure." > At least in his later, better works he develops > some sympathy for the world as it is and the characters who occupy it. > What kind of sympathy could you "develop" personally for a guy like Cleanth Siegel, Pointsman, Major Marvy or even Slothrop? > > > Comment: > > > With its ostentatious and often gratuitous references to Shakespeare, > >the Bible and gnostic Apocrypha, Jewish funeral traditions and Catholic > >church rituals, bullfighting, Dada, Goethe, Eliot, Conrad, Albertus > > Magnus, > >Santayana, Gaugin, foreign language phrases, Ojibwa culture and > >psychopathology, and more, the story suffers from precisely the same > >pretentiousness that it satirises in the shape of the partygoers babbling > >on about "Zen", "San Francisco" and "Wittgenstein" -- perhaps > >self-consciously and self-parodically, though, if so, not overtly enough. > > Bingo! All these references with no point or payoff. No synthesis > Well, then you should analyse them one by one. I don't think that a postmodern short story requires a synthesis, only some kind of consistency. But this consistency can best lie in its inconsistency. As David Seed says, and I quote this explicitly to counter Rob's argument that "the story suffers from precisely the same pretentiousness that it satirises": "(...) the story's humor and surrealism grows out of a disparity between its various elements. We jerk unsettingly from anthropological reference to party small-talk to literary allusions, all of which pull against each other rather than settle down into stable oppositions. At the heart of the story lies a belief in the inauthenticity of contemporary life and a split in the self between feeling and intellect." ("The Fictional Labyrinths of Thomas Pynchon," Iowa City 1988, p. 20) > > but what is particularly jejune is the way the narrative ultimately > > resolves itself in a blood-bath: it's a species of that characteristic > > and supposedly shocking "and then the world exploded" climax > > ending written by barely-pubescent prodigies > > ("a pose of ... somber glee at any idea of mass > > destruction or decline" as he describes it in SL:13). > But within the story it makes a damn good sense. What would you two expect? That Loon takes the BAR off the wall but instead of killing them he forces them to listen to him, telling them in a long monologue what kind of fools and spoiled children they are? That Debbie admits her wrongdoing and that they all collect some money to buy a ticket for Loon to get back home? > As I said earlier: hamfisted. > Without giving arguments for this, sorry. > >Otto sez: So concluding from this I'd say our discussion here already > >proves that it's a good story. > > No. We are only discussing it because it was written by Pynchon. > Otherwise we would never have looked at it twice. > > Ghetta > Good point! But I still prefer MMV to "Entropy" or "Low-lands," according to my personal taste. Otto From ottosell at yahoo.de Fri Aug 20 11:48:20 2004 From: ottosell at yahoo.de (Otto) Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 18:48:20 +0200 Subject: MMV: Context References: Message-ID: <016701c486d5$819fb520$0101a8c0@i7t2q2> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ghetta Life" To: ; Sent: Friday, August 20, 2004 5:49 PM Subject: Re: MMV: Context > > >From: "Otto" > > > >Here's the part that you should've quoted: > > > >"He (i.e. White) misses the early signs of Siegel's amorality > > Could someone who agrees with this above point out to us > what those "early signs of Siegel's amorality" are. > King does a good job in this throughout his essay. > >as well as Pynchon's implicit criticism of Siegel's behavior. > > As well as "Pynchon's implicit criticism of Siegel's behavior." > ditto: "By focusing on the forces that shape Siegel's behavior (heredity and environment; religious delusions; culture), Keesey, Slade, and Seed fail to acknowledge--much less explore--the moral questions that surround Siegel's actions. Consequently, they are themselves guilty of shrugging off--or, at the very least, downplaying the seriousness of--the murders. And, by doing so, they reinforce White's accusation that "Mortality and Mercy" (and, by extension, all postmodern fiction) is morally suspect." To claim that Pynchon endorses Siegel's decision at the end of the story out of some kind of authorial "juvenile delinquency" is nonsense. > >Most important, White fails to recognize that we misread Siegel because we > >tend to read, especially in the absence of death (or some equally dramatic > >situation), indifferently. And indifference, Pynchon shows us, is deadly, > >both in extreme cases (Loon's attack) as well as in less dramatic ones > >(evaluating Siegel). In White's haste to distance himself from Siegel's > >position, he overlooks the fact that it is Pynchon who nudges the reader > >toward the moral high ground.[sup13]" > > I think this quote above is a silly and desperate attempt to rescue this > story from itself. Of course we read indifferently, unless something in the > fiction moves us to do otherwise. MMV doesn't. So according to this > critic, we've fallen into Pynchon's devious trap by not being moved by his > subtle fiction. Pardon me, but what crap. > > Ghetta > We've only fallen into Pynchon's devious trap if we fell into that trap. It is "subtle fiction" by a young author testing his abilities. If you're not recognizing this you're not judging the story correctly, as it deserves to be judged. Nobody has claimed that it is perfect or flawless. Otto From davemarc at panix.com Fri Aug 20 11:35:06 2004 From: davemarc at panix.com (davemarc) Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 12:35:06 -0400 Subject: Welcome Back Message-ID: <008801c486d8$5c78e020$2fc654a6@gmsc20b> Hey Meg, Henry, and Will-- It's great to have you back here. I can hardly believe it! Make yourselves comfortable and spread the joy!! Cheers, d. From pynchonoid at yahoo.com Fri Aug 20 13:04:36 2004 From: pynchonoid at yahoo.com (pynchonoid) Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 11:04:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: MMV In-Reply-To: <013d01c486d1$04e7bf40$0101a8c0@i7t2q2> Message-ID: <20040820180436.24515.qmail@web40707.mail.yahoo.com> NeedaLife: >>We are only discussing it because it was >> written by Pynchon. That's an excellent reason to be reading and discussing something on PYNCHON-L, don't you think? ===== http://pynchonoid.org "everything connects" _______________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Win 1 of 4,000 free domain names from Yahoo! Enter now. http://promotions.yahoo.com/goldrush From ghetta_outta at hotmail.com Fri Aug 20 13:41:50 2004 From: ghetta_outta at hotmail.com (Ghetta Life) Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 18:41:50 +0000 Subject: MMV Message-ID: >From: "Otto" > > >In this I disagree. I don't share this sense and I don't think that the >story has a morale like "they were so shallow they deserved to die" or >"they looked too weird, it served them right." > > > > But this is precisely what the story communicates. > > > >This only would be the case if Siegel had been presented throughout the >story as a nice guy easy to identify with. But the contrary is the case; >he's clearly set up as an asshole nobody identifies with. I fail to see how he's presented Siegel as an asshole. I asked for examples of how he's presented as "morally deficient" (or whatever). I don't think I read to identify with a character, only to somehow understand him, which does require empathy of sorts. Siegel shares many of his thoughts to the reader, but I don't see any that warn me against sympathising with him, until the end when he abandons the party to slaughter. >This is what King has to say about it: > >"By the end of the story, however, the reader understands that the careless >use of language (the very crime that Pynchon has been accused of), or the >refusal to use it at all, can lead to disaster. *What?* How does "the reader" understand this lesson about careless use of language? >But if Siegel's moral failure boils down to his careless use of language, >the reader's moral failure can be attributed to careless reading. Again, *What?* All these statements about a lesson about language and reading that I didn't see at all. Since you are quoting this guy would you care to point out the specifics of the text which teach these lessons? >Loon's moral failure stems from his Windigo psychosis, a condition that >causes him to identify with a mythological figure who feeds on human flesh. >Few of us are in danger of identifying with either Loon or this mythic >monster.Yet most readers, despite Pynchon's warnings, identify with Siegel, >who is simply a more clever cannibal. Like Loon, then, the reader also >suffers from a form of Windigo psychosis.[sup12] To blame Pynchon for this >unflattering diagnosis --or simply to refuse to acknowledge it--is itself a >moral failure." Pardon me, but this whole paragraph is bullshit. I essence it says that anyone who doesn't see the lessons or diagnoses that this critic see in the storey is suffering from a moral/perceptual failure. But what are "Pynchon's warnings?" Does he cite them specifically? > > At least in his later, better works he develops some sympathy for the >world as it is and the characters who occupy it. > >What kind of sympathy could you "develop" personally for a guy like Cleanth >Siegel, Pointsman, Major Marvy or even Slothrop? What I was refering to was his later versions of the "Whole Sick Crew," starting with the characters in V, and continuing with the characters who become the Counterforce in GR. They are all "decadent" in some fashion, but they still have their sympathetic side. They aren't slaughtered by Pynchon at the end of the book. The problem of a flawed world is explored in both these works, but an aknowledgement is implicit that they are still all we've got. > > Bingo! All these references with no point or payoff. No synthesis > >Well, then you should analyse them one by one. I don't think that a >postmodern short story requires a synthesis, only some kind of consistency. >But this consistency can best lie in its inconsistency. As David Seed says, >and I quote this explicitly to counter Rob's argument that "the story >suffers from precisely the same pretentiousness that it satirises": I don't read novels in the light of anything called "postmodern." I expect them to stand on their own. Anad I attribute the pretentiousness inherent in the references to be a failing on Pynchon's part, not a consistency with those things which he criticises. That would be to make his authorship of the story a parody of his own authorship, if you follow my drift. >"(...) the story's humor and surrealism grows out of a disparity between >its >various elements. We jerk unsettingly from anthropological reference to >party small-talk to literary allusions, all of which pull against each >other >rather than settle down into stable oppositions. At the heart of the story >lies a belief in the inauthenticity of contemporary life and a split in the >self between feeling and intellect." >("The Fictional Labyrinths of Thomas Pynchon," Iowa City 1988, p. 20) With this paragraph I agree. But his use of a completely contrived figure of a cannabil to call down judgement (with the implied consent of the host). And this role as briger of judgement is specifically prefaced in the role Lepescu gives him" "You are now the host. As host you are a trinity: (a) receiver of guests" -- ticking them off on his fingers -- "(b) an enemy and (c) an outward manifestation, for them, of the divine body and blood." Lepescu decides that this night it is time for Siegel to "pull the plug" on this collection of souls. Only it's not until the end of the story that this becomes clear. Pulling the plug is clearly Pynchon's intention (manifest in the words of his shaman-like Lepscu), not the character Siegel's shortcommings. > > > but what is particularly jejune is the way the narrative ultimately >resolves itself in a blood-bath: it's a species of that characteristic and >supposedly shocking "and then the world exploded" climax ending written by >barely-pubescent prodigies ("a pose of ... somber glee at any idea of mass >destruction or decline" as he describes it in SL:13). > > > As I said earlier: hamfisted. > >Without giving arguments for this, sorry. It only makes "sense" in the most unsubtle and moralising sense, particularly in the juvenile sense that robert describes above. And the use of this "cannibal" to exact this judgment is almost racist. At the very least it is an overwrought contrivance. Ghetta _________________________________________________________________ Is your PC infected? Get a FREE online computer virus scan from McAfee� Security. http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 From mittelwerk at hotmail.com Fri Aug 20 14:03:55 2004 From: mittelwerk at hotmail.com (Joel Katz) Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 15:03:55 -0400 Subject: Wood on Current Fiction Message-ID: oh, yeah? i'd sure like see somebody try to film a robbe-grillet novel. lol. > >One could also argue that Coover's statement is stupid. Think about it, >what novel can't be filmed? Perhaps the fact that any novel or fiction >can be filmed tells us more about film than novels. _________________________________________________________________ Get ready for school! Find articles, homework help and more in the Back to School Guide! http://special.msn.com/network/04backtoschool.armx From ghetta_outta at hotmail.com Fri Aug 20 14:27:16 2004 From: ghetta_outta at hotmail.com (Ghetta Life) Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 19:27:16 +0000 Subject: MMV Message-ID: >From: pynchonoid >NeedaLife: > >>We are only discussing it because it was written by Pynchon. > >That's an excellent reason to be reading and discussing something on >PYNCHON-L, don't you think? As usual, the depth of your observations preclude any further discussion. Ghetta _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From monropolitan at yahoo.com Fri Aug 20 14:30:18 2004 From: monropolitan at yahoo.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 12:30:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: LET'S GO GRAVITY'S RAINBOW! In-Reply-To: <4126025A.E39951E3@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <20040820193018.75409.qmail@web50709.mail.yahoo.com> Once again, show us what you mean. Start it up, and they will come. I will, at any rate ... --- Terrance wrote: > > I've not whined. > I've proposed an alternative to the benumbing > schedule of esoteric texts we are trudging through > presently (usage problem). But ... > Will you agree to trash the current reading list? No. Why? No need. I'll stick with it so long as anyone else will. If we can keep up with both Slow Learner and Pale Fire at the same time ... > Bullshit! I'll google scoop you line for line, > Monroe. I've a bigger library and better fingers. > So there! AND you apparently have far, far more time. I've had to give up teh kind of extracurricular reading I was doing during, say, the last V., Lot 49 and Mason & Dixon readings as my very own Merton College Library is now largely, and not easily retrievably, in storage. Keep in mind, I was largely working out of my own collection, with the occasional trips to our indeed not-nearly-New-Yorkian Public and university libraries. So, yeah, I've been shortcutting ... > Seriously, I enjoy reading a few of your posts from > time to time. Look backward to reading them, even, > but ... You're even starting to sound like me here, but ... but that's been my particular mission here, to read as much basic research into the record as possible. I keep going back to the archives, at any rate, though not neraly enough, or as consistently as I should. That's why I'd like to get these shorter texts covered, by the way, so we can at least have something to show for them. I'm only just reading MM in any seriousness for the first time, and as has been pointed out here, there's a lot of teh later, mightier oaka that are Those Pynchonian Texts in this acorn ... > as the Greeks say, two heads are better than one > and 12 heads are better than none. A friend's brother and his friend ran a student government, and, later, a political campaign on the slogan, "two heads are better than none" .... > And GR is better than anything else. And we should > read it ... cause, because because because > because because of the wonderful things it does. Agreed. Gentleman, start yr screaming ... __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From monropolitan at yahoo.com Fri Aug 20 14:39:27 2004 From: monropolitan at yahoo.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 12:39:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: LPPM MMV "The Catalogue Aria" Message-ID: <20040820193927.20677.qmail@web50701.mail.yahoo.com> "Then, surprisingly-- and, for Siegel, embarrassingly--she began reeling off a list of the affairs she had had in all the underdeveloped areas she had visited for the State Dept.; several pages of unofficial statistics which sounded a little like the Catalogue aria from Don Giovanni." (MMV, p. 8) Leporello: "Catalogue" Aria [Act I, Scene 2] PLOT SO FAR : Donna Elvira has, prior to the beginning of the opera, been seduced by Don Giovanni and subsequently abandoned by him. In Scene 2 of the opera (Scene 1 being the murder of the Commendatore), Don Giovanni and his side-kick, Leporello, spy a woman and begin to pursue her. The woman is obviously in great distress, and DG offers her words of comfort, whereupon the woman, none other than Donna Elvira, turns round, recognizes him ("Chi � l�?"--the beginning of the recitative) and denounces him. DG slips away, characteristically leaving Leporello to cope with the situation. Leporello does so heavy-handedly by showing her the catalogue that he has compiled of all DG's conquests, country by country, type by type. This is intended to console her. At the end, she leaves the stage vowing vengeance on DG. This famous aria belongs to a tradition of such "catalogue arias." It is comic, even farcical, and yet it reveals the dark side of DG's character as fully as at an point in the opera. http://www.columbia.edu/itc/music/NYCO/dongiovanni/catalogue.html http://www.columbia.edu/itc/music/NYCO/DonGiovanniMadamina.html Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart, Don Giovanni (1787) http://www.metopera.org/synopses/giovanni.html http://www.columbia.edu/itc/music/NYCO/dongiovanni/ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From monropolitan at yahoo.com Fri Aug 20 14:56:03 2004 From: monropolitan at yahoo.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 12:56:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: MMV: Context In-Reply-To: <00d801c486c1$14f30ee0$0101a8c0@i7t2q2> Message-ID: <20040820195603.45561.qmail@web50706.mail.yahoo.com> "Good," "bad," if there's anything that wastes one's time here, it's such distinctions. Don't let yreslf get entangled by such irrelevancies. It's Pynchon, dammit, let's deal with it. Period. Thanks ... --- Otto wrote: > > I don't even claim that it's a good story although > I liked it better than any other story from SL > except "The Secret Integration" ... __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From monropolitan at yahoo.com Fri Aug 20 15:01:54 2004 From: monropolitan at yahoo.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 13:01:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: LPPM MMV "A Divine Melancholia" Message-ID: <20040820200154.70181.qmail@web50705.mail.yahoo.com> "It seemed she had this habit of picking up male specimens wherever she went and bringing them back with her and dropping them after a few weeks. [...] But Irving Loon, she insisted, was different. He had this brooding James Dean quality about him. "'He's been standing in the same corner all evening,' she said. 'He hasn't spoken a word for two days. [...] But it's a divine melancholia and it's what I love about him.' "Good grief, that was it. "Melancholia. Just by accident she had used that word, the psychologist's term, instead of 'melancholy.' ...." (MMV, pp. 8-9) James Dean http://imdb.com/name/nm0000015/ "a divine melancholia" Main Entry: mel�an�cho�lia Pronunciation: "me-l&n-'kO-lE-& Function: noun Etymology: New Latin, from Late Latin, melancholy : a mental condition characterized by extreme depression, bodily complaints, and often hallucinations and delusions; especially : a manic-depressive psychosis http://m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=melancholia "a divine melancholia" = "good grief" ... Cf., e.g., ... "'Go ahead, but don't expect me to ascend wearily out of my Melancholia just so ev'rybody else can have their own idea of a good time ...'" (M&D, p. 272) And see, esp., ... Burton, Robert. The Anatomy of Melancholy. Ed. Holbrook Jackson. New York: NYRB Books, 2001 [1621]. http://www.nybooks.com/shop/product?product_id=2 __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From monropolitan at yahoo.com Fri Aug 20 15:29:55 2004 From: monropolitan at yahoo.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 13:29:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: LPPM MMV "Windigo Psychosis" Message-ID: <20040820202955.60540.qmail@web50706.mail.yahoo.com> "'You must remember that this group lives forever at the brink of starvation,' Mitchell said in that deprecating, apologetic tone which implied that for him all cultures were equally mad; it was only the form that differed, never the content. 'It has been said that the Ojibwa ethos is saturated with anxiety,' and simultaneously 50 pens copied the sentence verbatim. "'The Ojibwa are trained, from childhood, to starve; the male child's entire upbringing is dedicated to a single goal: that of becoming a great hunter. Emphasis is on isolation, self-sufiiciency. There is no sentimentality among the Ojibwa. It is an austere and bleak existence they lead, always one step away from death. Before he can attain to the state of manhood a boy must experience a vision, after starving himself for several days. Often after seeing this vision he feels he has acquired a supernatural companion, and there is a tendency to identify. Out in the wilderness, with nothing but a handful of beaver, deer, moose and bear between him and starvation, for the Ojibwa hunter, feeling as he does at bay, feeling a concentration of obscure cosmic forces against him and him alone, cynical terrorists, savage and amoral deities--' this time a smile in self-reproach--'which are bent on his destruction, the identification may become complete. When such paranoid tendencies are further intensified bv the highly competitive life of the summer villages at ricing and berry-picking time, or bv the curse, perhaps, of a shaman with some personal grudge, the Ojibwa becomes highly susceptible to the well-known Windigo psychosis.' "Siegel knew about the Windigo, all right...." "the Ojibwa ethos" Cf., perhaps, ... "Revolutionaries of the Zero, they mean to carry on what began among the old Hereros after the 1904 rebellion failed. They want a negative birth rate. The program is racial suicide. They would finish the extermination the Germans began in 1904. [...] "There was a tribal mind at work out here, and it has chosen to commit suicide.... Puzzling." (GR, p. 317) "Windigo Psychosis" Social events were occasions for the elders to tell stories about the past and about supernatural figures like Nanibush, the trickster and spirit who put all living and non-living things into their present form, and Windigo, the spirit who waited in the dark cold woods of winter for some human flesh. Most frightening, an Ojibwa could turn into a Windigo, himself, during conditions of starvation. http://collections.ic.gc.ca/nativepeoples/algo.html The Windigo is considered to be biggest fears of Native Americans. The Windigo is a creature of the Algonkian people .... Description There are many descriptions of the Windigo, but very few illustrations. The Windigo is the feared personification of both physical and spiritual famine. It can be a personality disorder or mental illness that causes its victim to become crazed and perform acts of cannibalism.... [...] History The name is derived from the Algonkian root word witiku, and means 'evil spirit' and 'cannibal'. Its pronunciation varies from tribe to tribe, as are its spelling, but 'Windigo' is the most common way, followed by 'Wendigo'. The Windigo dates back to the earliest of Indian legends, where it is described as a phantom of hunger that stalks the forests, hunting for lone Indians to eat. It is a creature of the Algonkian people's experience and imagination. Its origin spawned from the fear and disgust of cannibalism. This act is seen to be so horrid that persons who commit it can only be explained by possession of a supernatural evil, for it is inconceivable that a healthy man, with full control of his mental facilities, will eat the flesh of his fellows by choice or by desire. http://www.heatherandpatrick.com/heather/windigo/ And see as well, e.g., ... http://www.occultopedia.com/w/windigo.htm http://www.cryptozoology.com/glossary/glossary_topic.php?id=15 And, esp., ... http://www.legionmagazine.com/features/canadianreflections/03-01.asp Not to mention ... http://www.hulklibrary.com/hulk/comics/comic-show.asp?Id=TIH2&Issue=162 http://www.hulklibrary.com/hulk/comics/comic-show.asp?Id=tih2&Issue=180 http://www.hulklibrary.com/hulk/comics/comic-show.asp?Id=tih2&Issue=181 You know, I'd at least held these in my hands back in the day ... Cf. (?) ... "'You will have the tallest, darkest leading man in Hollywood.'" (GR, p. 179) "... inspired by a wave of Bigfoot sightings ..." (VL, p. 44) And, archivally, e.g., ... "... this running amok business ..." (M&D, p. 148) http://waste.org/mail/?list=pynchon-l&month=9708&msg=19041 __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From monropolitan at yahoo.com Fri Aug 20 15:44:45 2004 From: monropolitan at yahoo.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 13:44:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: LPPM MMV "Beavers" Message-ID: <20040820204445.17131.qmail@web50704.mail.yahoo.com> "'As far as the eye can reach--' he gestured dramatically-- 'Beavers. Succulent, juicy, fat.' "'How yummy,' Grossmann had commented wryly." (MMV, p. 8) "Beavers" Cf. ... "In his suddenly amiable state it seemed to Siegel that this account of the young fellow named Cheever who had an affair with a beaver took on Deeper Human Significance ...." (MMV, p. 4) http://waste.org/mail/?list=pynchon-l&month=0408&msg=92463 Beaver, "Old" Jeremy the 36; 121; boyfriend of Jessica Swanlake; works for Operation Backfire in Cuxhaven; is the War, 177; meets Mexico at Gross Suckling Conference, 709 http://www.hyperarts.com/pynchon/gravity/alpha/b.html Kastoranthropy 619; Greek: "kastor" = "beaver"; the combination of a human being and a beaver Kastormorphism 620 Greek: "kastor" = "beaver"; changing into a beaver http://www.hyperarts.com/pynchon/mason-dixon/alpha/k.html And see as well ... Herman Moll, "A New and Exact Map of the Dominion of the King of Great Britain and Ye Continent of North America" (1715), a.k.a. the "Beaver Map" ... http://www.usm.maine.edu/~maps/exhibit2/31.jpg http://www.themaphouse.com/amercat/usa5935.html http://www.lib.unb.ca/Texts/Marston/maps/map3.html http://www.libs.uga.edu/darchive/hargrett/maps/1715m6.jpg http://libraries.uta.edu/txmapsociety/Neatline/NL32FeaMap.htm http://memory.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/r?ammem/gmd:@field(NUMBER+ at band(g3300+ct000232)) http://arc.cs.odu.edu:8080/dp9/getrecord/oai_dc/oai:lcoa1:loc.gmd/g3300.ct000232 http://www.mapsofpa.com/18thcentury/1731bowlesmoll.jpg Note esp. the inset, "The CATARACT of Niagara," "A View of ye Industry of ye Beavers of Canada in making Dams to stop ye Course of a Rivulet ..." ... http://www.usm.maine.edu/~maps/exhibit2/31b.jpg http://waste.org/mail/?list=pynchon-l&month=0207&msg=68623 My favorite diorama title at The Milwaukee Public Museum, by the way: "The Quest for Beaver." Succulent, juicy, fat ... _______________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Win 1 of 4,000 free domain names from Yahoo! Enter now. http://promotions.yahoo.com/goldrush From jbor at bigpond.com Fri Aug 20 18:00:32 2004 From: jbor at bigpond.com (jbor) Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 09:00:32 +1000 Subject: MMV In-Reply-To: Message-ID: 'The Small Rain' was my first published story. ... Apparently I felt I had to put on a whole extra overlay of rain images and references to "The Waste Land" and _A Farewell to Arms_. I was operating on the motto "Make it literary," a piece of bad advice I made up all by myself and then took. (Pynchon: SL 4) jbor wrote: > Context: > 'Mortality and Mercy in Vienna', Pynchon's second published story, ... > > So low is Pynchon's regard for it that the story is not mentioned -- let > alone included -- in the collection of his early stories published as _Slow > Learner_ (1984). Pynchon describes the stories that have been included in > that collection as "pretentious, goofy and ill-considered" (4); it's safe to > say that he believed that 'MMV' is even worse. > > Comment: > With its ostentatious and often gratuitous references to ... > > Intertextual elements: > The primary literary allusions in the story are to Conrad's _Heart of > Darkness_ and, I suspect, to Hemingway's _The Sun Also Rises_ (or _Fiesta_). > Pynchon, while showing off somewhat his own critical insights into these two > novels, also appropriates imagery from both texts into his story in a > thoroughgoing, though less-than-straightforward, way. ... From jbor at bigpond.com Fri Aug 20 18:28:22 2004 From: jbor at bigpond.com (jbor) Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 09:28:22 +1000 Subject: MMV: Windigo In-Reply-To: Message-ID: on 21/8/04 4:41 AM, Ghetta Life wrote: > And the use > of this "cannibal" to exact this judgment is almost racist. At the very > least it is an overwrought contrivance. Indeed. To designate "the Windigo", which is a Native American spiritual belief, as "a moral failure", is very much a type of religious discrimination. (Note how the exalted state is labelled by the Western anthropologist as a "psychosis", where within Western mythologies such divine visions would be called "miracles".) Throughout the story Pynchon identifies "the Windigo psychosis" with the Christian Eucharist, and that is the spanner in the works which King has chosen to ignore. best From monropolitan at yahoo.com Fri Aug 20 20:29:43 2004 From: monropolitan at yahoo.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 18:29:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: LPPM MMV "Cleanth Siegel, S.J.," Message-ID: <20040821012943.26717.qmail@web50707.mail.yahoo.com> "'You're the same,' she whispered, 'you have this monumental Lupescu coolness. You're sure you're not his doubleganger.' "'No,' Siegel said, 'I'm not sure. Go ahead.' She hesitated and he prompted her: 'Bless me father...' "The eyelids flew open. 'David said that too. Who are you, Siegel?' "'For the moment a father confessor. What seems to be your trouble, my child.' [...] "Tucked snugly in some rectory of the mind, Cleanth Siegel, S.J., looked on with approval." [...] "He took her hand. 'Come on,' he said, 'I'd like to meet Irving. Say for your penance ten Hail Marys and make a good Act of Contrition.'" (MMV, pp. 9-10) "Bless me father ..." How To Go To Confession 1. The Priest will often begin with the Sign of the Cross or a greeting and blessing. 2. The Penitent begins by saying �Bless me Father for I have sinned, it has been ____ (number of days, weeks, months, etc.) since my last confession. These are my sins�.... http://www.catholic.org/frz/examen/confession_how.htm "rectory of the mind" Main Entry: rec�to�ry Pronunciation: 'rek-t(&-)rE Function: noun Inflected Form(s): plural -ries 1 : a benefice held by a rector 2 : a residence of a rector or a parish priest http://m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=rectory "Cleanth Siegel, S.J." The Society of Jesus We are one of the largest religious orders in the Catholic Church. The Society of Jesus was founded in 1540 by St. Ignatius Loyola, a Basque nobleman and soldier, who found God in all things. Today there are over 20,000 Jesuits serving the Church in 112 nations on six continents. http://www.jesuit.org/ The Society of Jesus is a religious order founded by Saint Ignatius Loyola. Designated by him "The Company of Jesus" to indicate its true leader and its soldier spirit, the title was Latinized into "Societas Jesu" in the Bull of Paul III approving its formation and the first formula of its Institute ("Regimini militantis ecclesia", 27 Sept., 1540). The term "Jesuit" (of fifteenth-century origin, meaning one who used too frequently or appropriated the name of Jesus), was first applied to the society in reproach (1544-52), and was never employed by its founder, though members and friends of the society in time accepted the name in its good sense. The Society ranks among religious institutes as a mendicant order of clerks regular, that is, a body of priests organized for apostolic work, following a religious rule, and relying on alms for their support .... http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14081a.htm Cf. ... "... the still small Jesuit voice which kept him from being either kicked around or conscious of guilt or simply ineffective like so many of the other Jewish boys on campus ..." (p. 1) "This little Jesuit thing, this poltergeist, would start kicking around inside his head ...." "quaint Jesuit arguments" (V., Ch. 1, p. 12) "DEVIL'S ADVOCATE'S what the shingle sez, yes inside is a Jesuit here to act in that capacity, here to preach, like his colleague Teilhard de Chardin, against return." (GR, Pt. III, p. 539) And in M&D ... Jesuits 266; 287; 328; 377; 420; 432; 479; College, 514; discovered by Blondelle, 519; Lesson I, 520; "a Financial Entity" 528; "Visitants from beneath the Ice" 531; 534; 543; 546; 601; physics, 604; 611; "five and a Quarter Degrees [...] removed from the Chinese Circle" 629; 687; 711; 772 http://www.hyperarts.com/pynchon/mason-dixon/alpha/j.html http://waste.org/mail/?list=pynchon-l&month=0408&msg=92483 Pynchon don't much like Jesuits, do he? Hm ... "for your penance" 6. The Priest will give you a penance. Listen to it carefully and remember it. You can refuse a penance if it is too vague or impossible to do in a reasonable time. 7. The Penitent makes an act of contrition in these or similar words: O my God, I am heartily sorry for having offended Thee, and I detest all of my sins because of Thy just punishments. But most of all because they offend Thee my God, who art all good and deserving of all my love. I firmly resolve, with the help of Thy grace, to sin no more, and to avoid the near occasions of sin. Amen. Memorize a good act of contrition. http://www.catholic.org/frz/examen/confession_how.htm _______________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Win 1 of 4,000 free domain names from Yahoo! Enter now. http://promotions.yahoo.com/goldrush From monropolitan at yahoo.com Fri Aug 20 20:36:40 2004 From: monropolitan at yahoo.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 18:36:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: LPPM MMV "Challis Tie" Message-ID: <20040821013640.65784.qmail@web50705.mail.yahoo.com> "'You look compassionate,' Debby said suddenly. 'Is there somewhere we can talk?' and Siegel, pulled away from the IBM cards, thought Jesus Christ, here we go again. He led her into the bedroom, which was beginning to look like some perversely-decorated confessional, and wondered whether this had been David Lupescu's place for listening to bent souls. He had a hunch it was. She stood close to him and played with his Challis tie and gave him the demure bit with the eyelashes again." (MMV, p. 8) "IBM cards" The first practical use of punched cards for data processing is credited to the American inventor Herman Hollerith, who decided to use Jacquard's punched cards to represent the data gathered for the American census of 1890, and to read and collate this data using an automatic machine. http://www.maxmon.com/punch1.htm The primary storage for data, and later programs were cards .... Cards were used to control Jacquard weaving looms already in 1806.... Hermann Hollerith adapted the concept for data storage and processing in the 1890 census. His patented cards originally had 20 columns with 10 rows, expanded eventually to 45 columns and 12 rows. The cards had round holes, a format retained by Remington Rand, later, Sperry-Rand, subsequently Univac, and now Unisys. Initially the cards were read by having a box of pins descend, and where a hole was encountered the pins would make contact in a mercury bath below. Herman Hollerith earned a PhD from Columbia University in 1890 for his work. Hermann Holerith's company, the Tabulating Machine Corporation (TMC) merged with two other companies in 1911 to become the Computing-Tabulating-Recording Company (CTR), which changed its name to International Business Machines (IBM) in 1924. IBM. IBM switched to 80-column card in 1929, with square holes, which were easier to read while moving through equipment.... http://www-db.stanford.edu/pub/voy/museum/pictures/display/2-2-ElecKeyPunch.htm "Challis tie" Main Entry: chal�lis Pronunciation: 'sha-lE Function: noun Inflected Form(s): plural chal�lises /'sha-lEz/ Etymology: probably from the name Challis : a lightweight soft clothing fabric made of cotton, wool, or synthetic yarns http://m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=challis E.g., ... http://www.polo.com/product/index.jsp?productId=1846911&cp=1760781.1760796&nav=lhn&parentPage=family But ... Main Entry: chal�ice Pronunciation: 'cha-l&s Function: noun Etymology: Middle English, from Anglo-French, from Latin calic-, calix; akin to Greek kalyx calyx 1 : a drinking cup : GOBLET; especially : the eucharistic cup ... http://m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=chalice __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From monropolitan at yahoo.com Fri Aug 20 21:03:18 2004 From: monropolitan at yahoo.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 19:03:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: LPPM MMV "The Nimble Little Machiavel" Message-ID: <20040821020318.8135.qmail@web50704.mail.yahoo.com> "The cha cha side had been replaced by Bartok's Concerto for Orchestra and Siegel smiled grimly because of its appropriateness; because he knew he could listen to anything else but this mad Hungarian without getting bugged, but at the sound of an entire string section run suddenly amok, shrieking like an uprooted mandrakes trying to tear itself apart, the nimble little Machiavel inside him would start to throw things at the mensch who had just cast off adolescence and who still sat perpetual shivall for people like Debby Considine and Lucy and himself and all the other dead, trying to goad it into action ...." (MMV, p. 10) "cha cha side" Main Entry: side Pronunciation: 'sId Function: noun Etymology: Middle English, from Old English sIde; akin to Old High German sIta side, Old English sId ample, wide [...] 11 : a recording of music http://m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=side "Bartok's Concerto for Orchestra" Cf. ... "... a dry, disconsolate tune from the fourth movement of the Bart�k Concerto for Orchestra ..." (Lot 49, p. 1) Bela Bart�k, a Hungarian nationalist forced into exile by the Nazis during the Second World War, fled to New York, where he wrote his Concerto for Orchestra. The concerto's frantic fourth movement has no "dry, disconsolate tune" (CL 10). Maybe the ailing Bart�k was disconsolate, but the music is not. This inversion is Pynchon's way of flagging Bart�k so we will review his biography. Bart�k is mentioned in "Mortality and Mercy in Vienna" as well; the category of the exile was already important the the undergraduate Pynchon. Lot 49 also mentions the Vivaldi Kazoo Orchestra (a joke carried over from V.) to offset the Bart�k reference, to make it appear equally casual. But Vivaldi was not a dispossessed political exile, as Bart�k was �a fact the mention of "a refugee Hungarian pastry cook" (CL 13) reminds us of despite its joking context. http://www.vheissu.org/art/art_eng_49_hollander.htm "run suddenly amok" Main Entry: amok Pronunciation: &-'m&k, -'m�k Function: noun Etymology: Malay amok : a murderous frenzy that occurs chiefly among Malays Cf. not only the Windigo psychosis, but ... "... this running amok business ..." (M&D, p. 148) http://waste.org/mail/?list=pynchon-l&month=9708&msg=19041 http://waste.org/mail/?list=pynchon-l&month=0408&msg=92555 "uprooted mandrakes" Main Entry: man�drake Pronunciation: 'man-"drAk Function: noun Etymology: Middle English, probably alteration of mandragora 1 a : a Mediterranean herb (Mandragora officinarum) of the nightshade family with ovate leaves, yellowish or purple flowers, and a large forked root traditionally credited with human attributes b : the root of a mandrake formerly used especially to promote conception, as a cathartic, or as a narcotic and soporific 2 : MAYAPPLE http://m-w.com/mw/art/mandrake.htm http://m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=mandrake The root of the mandrake resembles a phallus or a human torso, and for this reason was believed to have occult powers. Many weird superstitions collected round the Mandrake root. As early as 93 BC the historian Flavius Josephus described the process of collecting the mandrake, stories of which were embellished over the years.The mandrake was fabled to grow under the gallows of murderers and its anthropological shape evidently was responsible for the superstition that it shrieked when it was uprooted. The demon inhabiting the root would be aroused and the sounds of its piercing groans of agony would be so horrible that whoever heard it, die or go deaf and insane. http://monsters.monstrous.com/mandrake.htm See also ... http://www.shanmonster.com/witch/plants/mandrake.html And see as well, e.g., ... http://www.thehighwaystar.com/rosas/jouni/discos/0lyrics/mandrake.html http://www.kingfeatures.com/features/comics/mandrake/about.htm "the nimble little Machiavel" The first great political philosopher of the Renaissance was Nicolo Machiavelli (1469-1527). His famous treatise, The Prince, stands apart from all other political writings of the period insofar as it focus on the practical problems a monarch faces in staying in power, rather than more speculative issues explaining the foundation of political authority. As such, it is an expression of realpolitik, that is, governmental policy based on retaining power rather than pursuing ideals. http://www.utm.edu/research/iep/m/machiave.htm E.g., ... I can add colours to the chameleon, Change shapes with Proteus for advantages, And set the murderous Machiavel to school. (Shakespeare, Henry VI, III.iii.206-8) http://sailor.gutenberg.org/etext97/1ws0310.txt Cf. "little Jesuit thing" ... http://waste.org/mail/?list=pynchon-l&month=0408&msg=92483 __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From monropolitan at yahoo.com Fri Aug 20 21:12:58 2004 From: monropolitan at yahoo.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 19:12:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: LPPM MMV "A Very Tangible Salvation" Message-ID: <20040821021258.37199.qmail@web50703.mail.yahoo.com> "First stage, melancholia. Second stage, direct violence. How much had Irving Loon been drinking? How much did starvation have to do with the psychosis once it got under way? And then the enormity of it hit him. Because if this hunch were true, Siegel had the power to work for these parishioners a kind of miracle, to bring them a very tangible salvation. A miracle involving a host, true, but like no holy eucharist. He was the only one, besides Irving Loon, who knew. Also, a sober voice reminded him, he was apparently the only one who had the Windigo psychosis as his sole piece of information about the Ojibwa. It might be a case of generalization, there might be any number of things wrong with Irving Loon. Still, perhaps ... a case of conscience." (MMV, p. 11) "A miracle involving a host" Cf., e.g., ... "'You are now the host. As host you are a trinity: (a) receiver of guests--' ticking them off on his fingers--'(b) an enemy and (c) an outward manifestation, for them, of the divine body and blood.'" (MMV, p. 3) http://waste.org/mail/?list=pynchon-l&month=0408&msg=92429 "Is this, like the Bread and Wine, a kindness of the Almighty, sparing him a sight he could not have abided? What might that be, too merciless to bear?" (M&D, Ch. 16, p. 171) http://waste.org/mail/?list=pynchon-l&month=0111&msg=62831 http://waste.org/mail/?list=pynchon-l&month=0111&msg=62840 "... if this hunch were true, Siegel had the power to work for these parishioners a kind of miracle, to bring them a very tangible salvation." How so? Let me know ... __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Address AutoComplete - You start. We finish. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From monropolitan at yahoo.com Fri Aug 20 21:23:11 2004 From: monropolitan at yahoo.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 19:23:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: LPPM MMV "Like Some Kurtz" Message-ID: <20040821022311.40940.qmail@web50708.mail.yahoo.com> "It occurred to him now that Lupescu's parting comment had been no drunken witticism; but that the man really had, like some Kurtz, been possessed by the heart of a darkness in which no ivory was ever sent out from the interior, but instead hoarded jealously by each of its gatherers to build painfully, fragment by fragment, temples to the glory of some imago or obsession, and decorated inside with the art work of dream and nightmare, and locked finally against a hostile forest, each "agent" in his own ivory tower, having no windows to look out of, turning further and further inward and cherishing a small flame behind the altar. And Kurtz too had been in his way a father confessor." (MMV, p. 11) "Lupescu's parting comment" "Ten seconds later the door opened again and Lupescu stuck his head in and winked. 'Mistah Kurtz--he dead,' he announced owlishly and disappeared." (MMV, p. 3) "like some Kurtz" Joseph Conrad, Heart of Darkness (1902) "Anything approaching the change that came over his features I have never seen before, and hope never to see again. Oh, I wasn't touched. I was fascinated. It was as though a veil had been rent. I saw on that ivory face the expression of somber pride, of ruthless power, of craven terror--of an intense and hopeless despair. Did he live his life again in every detail of desire, temptation, and surrender during that supreme moment of complete knowledge? He cried in a whisper at some image, at some vision,--he cried out twice, a cry that was no more than a breath-- "'The horror! The horror!' "I blew the candle out and left the cabin. The pilgrims were dining in the mess-room, and I took my place opposite the manager, who lifted his eyes to give me a questioning glance, which I successfully ignored. He leaned back, serene, with that peculiar smile of his sealing the unexpressed depths of his meanness. A continuous shower of small flies streamed upon the lamp, upon the cloth, upon our hands and faces. Suddenly the manager's boy put his insolent black head in the doorway, and said in a tone of scathing contempt-- "'Mistah Kurtz--he dead.'" http://www.classic-novels.com/author/joseph_conrad/heart_of_darkness/heart021.htm http://www.classic-novels.com/author/joseph_conrad/heart_of_darkness/heartarchive.htm And see as well, e.g., ... http://www.online-literature.com/conrad/heart_of_darkness/ http://wyllie.lib.virginia.edu:8086/perl/toccer-new?id=ConDark.sgm&images=images/modeng&data=/texts/english/modeng/parsed&tag=public&part=all T.S. Eliot, "The Hollow Men" (1925) MISTAH KURTZ--HE DEAD. A penny for the Old Guy I We are the hollow men We are the stuffed men Leaning together Headpiece filled with straw. Alas! ... http://www.cs.berkeley.edu/~richie/poetry/html/aupoem74.html http://www.english.uiuc.edu/maps/poets/a_f/eliot/hollow.htm http://waste.org/mail/?list=pynchon-l&month=0408&msg=92430 "the glory of some imago" Main Entry: ima�go Pronunciation: i-'m�-(")gO, -'mA- Function: noun Inflected Form(s): plural imagoes or ima�gi�nes /-'mA-g&-"nEz, -'m�-; -'mA-j&-, -'ma-/ Etymology: New Latin, from Latin, image 1 : an insect in its final, adult, sexually mature, and typically winged state 2 : an idealized mental image of another person or the self http://m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=imago "each 'agent' in his own ivory tower" Main Entry: ivory tower Function: noun Etymology: translation of French tour d'ivoire 1 : an impractical often escapist attitude marked by aloof lack of concern with or interest in practical matters or urgent problems 2 : a secluded place that affords the means of treating practical issues with an impractical often escapist attitude; especially : a place of learning http://m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=ivory+tower Why are academics chided as being in an ivory tower? What does an ivory tower have to do with seclusion or separation from the world? The inspiration is the Bible. The Song of Solomon 7:4 (KJV) reads: Thy neck is as a tower of ivory In 1837, the French poet Charles-Augustin Saint-Beuve wrote a poem titled Pens�s d�Ao�t (Thoughts of August) that contained the line: Et Vigny, plus secret, Comme en sa tour d'ivoire, avant midi rentrait. (and Vigny, more discreet, As if in his ivory tower, retired before noon. This figurative sense of ivory tower was first used in English in 1911 and in 1916 Henry James penned a novel with that title, cementing the term in English vocabulary. http://www.wordorigins.org/wordori.htm __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From monropolitan at yahoo.com Fri Aug 20 21:37:15 2004 From: monropolitan at yahoo.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 19:37:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: LPPM MMV "Sharp Horns, Charging In" Message-ID: <20040821023715.42041.qmail@web50707.mail.yahoo.com> "Espada broken, muleta lost, horse disembowelled, picadors sick with fear. Five in the afternoon, crowd screaming. Miura bull, sharp horns, charging in." (MMV, p. 12) So what happens during a bullfight?: [...] The faena which is the most beautiful and skillful section of the fight and where the matador must prove his courage and artistry. The faena consists of a running at the Matador carrying a muleta. This is a piece of thick crimson cloth draped over a short stick, which can be held in either the left hand or draped over the espada, the killing sword, which is always held in the right hand. Usually the muleta, in left or right hand, is first held in front of the matador to make the bull charge and is then swung across and away from the matador's body hopefully taking the bull with it. This is a show, basically a dance with death - one wrong move and the Matador could become impaled on the horns of the bull. It is the Matador's job to make this dance dramatic and enjoyable for the audience. The faena continues until the Matador has demonstrated his superiority over the bull. Once this is achieved the bull is ready to be killed. The matador stands some ten feet from the bull, keeping the bull fixated on the muleta and aims the espada between the shoulder blades. The matador attacks pushing the espada over the horns and deep between the shoulder blades. If the sword goes in to the hilt it is an estocada but if it hits bone it is a pinchazo or media-estocada. An estocada usually results in the bull dropping immediately to its knees and dying, but if the bull fails to die the matador may take the descabello (a sword with a short cross piece at the end) which he stabs into the bull's neck severing the spinal cord. The fight is over. http://www.spain-info.com/Culture/bullfighting.htm 8. What is a picador ? In the first tercio, the picador uses a pica (also known as a vara) which is a lance with a steel point (puya) from on horseback to weaken the bull's neck muscles so that its head is lowered for the kill. Picadors are not used in some novilladas which are referred to as "novilladas sin picadores" (novilladas without picadors). [...] 10. What is the difference between a capote and a muleta ? A capote is a big work cape, magenta on the outside and yellow (sometimes blue) on the inside. It is used by all the toreros but in the final tercio the matador or novillero will change it for the muleta, made from red flannel on a wooden stick, which he will use for the faena. 11. What is a faena ? A faena is all the work done with a muleta by a matador or novillero in the final and most important tercio of the bullfight.... [...] Occasionally a matador or novillero will appear alone (en solitario/unica espada) and fight all six bulls [...] 24. Why does the bull have a "rosette" on its back when it enters the ring ? All bulls are bred on ganaderias (ranches) which specialise in fighting bulls (toros de lidia). Each rancher (ganadero) makes his own distinctive notches in the bulls' ears, has his own branded insignia and his own colours. The rosette (divisa) shows the colours of the ranch which bred the bull and has a small barb on it. Just before the bull enters the ring via the toril gate, it is inserted into its hide using a long spring-loaded pole. The most famous ganaderia is that of the infamous Miura bulls from Seville. http://mundo-taurino.org/toro_faq.html http://users.erols.com/mcarrion/epfaques.htm And see as well, esp., ... http://www.lhs.liverpool.k12.ny.us/lhslib/projects/Hewko/Los%20Toros.htm http://www.idealspain.com/Pages/Information/Bullfighting.htm "five in the afternoon" �La corrida,� or bullfight begins at 5 o�clock sharp. So says Garcia Lorca dramatically in the �Llanto por Ignacio Sanchez Mejias�: �At 5 o�clock in the afternoon. It was exactly 5 o�clock in the afternoon�� The bullfight is the only event that begins with any punctuality in Spain.... http://www.lhs.liverpool.k12.ny.us/lhslib/projects/Hewko/Los%20Toros.htm Federico Garc�a Lorca, "Llanto per Ignacio Sanchez Mejias" (1935) http://home.tiscali.be/ericlaermans/cultural/lorca/llanto_por_ignacio_sanchez_mejias/la_cogida_y_la_muerte.html http://home.tiscali.be/ericlaermans/cultural/lorca/llanto_por_ignacio_sanchez_mejias/indice.html __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From monropolitan at yahoo.com Fri Aug 20 21:46:45 2004 From: monropolitan at yahoo.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 19:46:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: MMV LPPM "Only One Course to Take" Message-ID: <20040821024645.83162.qmail@web50705.mail.yahoo.com> "He figured there were about sixty seconds to make a decision, and now the still small Jesuit voice, realizing that the miracle was in his hands after all, for real, vaunted with the same sense of exhiliration Siegel had once felt seeing five hundred hysterical freshmen advancing on the women's dorms, knowing it was he who had set it all in motion. And the other, gentle part of him sang kaddishes for the dead and mourned over the Jesuit's happiness, realizing however that this kind of penance was as good as any other; it was just unfortunate that Irving Loon would be the only one partaking of any body and blood, divine or otherwise. It took no more than five seconds for the two sides to agree that there was really only one course to take. "Quietly Siegel strolled back through the kitchen, through the living room, taking his time, unnoticed by the crap shooters, opened the door, stepped out into the hall and closed the door behind him. He walked downstairs, whistling. At the first floor landing, he heard the first screams, the pounding of footsteps, the smashing of glass. He shrugged. What the hell, stranger things had happened in Washington. It was not until he had reached the street that he heard the first burst of the BAR fire." "the still small Jesuit voice" http://waste.org/mail/?list=pynchon-l&month=0408&msg=92483 "kaddishes for the dead" http://www.jewfaq.org/prayer/kaddish.htm Kaddish is commonly known as a mourner's prayer, but in fact, variations on the Kaddish prayer are routinely recited at many other times, and the prayer itself has nothing to do with death or mourning. The prayer begins "May His great Name grow exalted and sanctified in the world that He created as He willed. May He give reign to His kingship in your lifetimes and in your days ..." and continues in much that vein. The real mourner's prayer is El Molai Rachamim, which is recited at grave sites and during funerals. http://www.jewfaq.org/death.htm "BAR fire" Recall ... "A Klee original was on the wall facing them; two crossed BAR's, hunting rifles and a few sabres hung around the other walls." (MMV, p. 6) BAR = Browning Automatic Rifle http://waste.org/mail/?list=pynchon-l&month=0408&msg=92487 But why "only one course to take"? Again ... __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From monropolitan at yahoo.com Fri Aug 20 21:49:27 2004 From: monropolitan at yahoo.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 19:49:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Giving Destruction a Name and Face Message-ID: <20040821024927.45117.qmail@web50707.mail.yahoo.com> >From Vincent King, "Giving Destruction a Name and Face: Thomas Pynchon's 'Mortality and Mercy in Vienna,'" Studies in Short Fiction, Vol. 35, No. 1 (Winter 1998), pp. 13-21 ... Thomas Pynchon's "Mortality and Mercy in Vienna" ends with the aptly named Irving Loon gunning down unsuspecting victims at a Washington party. Cleanth Siegel, the protagonist, anticipates this brutal attack but fails to warn the other guests. Instead, he walks blithely out of the apartment "whistling," good-naturedly sealing the fate of those who remain behind (201). Siegel's reaction to the massacre is as disturbing as his refusal to stop it: "At the first floor landing," Siegel "heard the first screams, the pounding of footsteps, the smashing of glass. He shrugged" (201). According to Allon White, this gesture reflects Siegel's and Pynchon's moral indifference. Both, White insists, are guilty of "shrugging off" the murders (61). This "shrug," he says, "shows up the fine limits of Pynchon's story at the same time as revealing the moment (so often repeated in American history) when America's confused liberalism emerges as scandalously self-conscious indifference" (62). Rising to Pynchon's defense, Douglas Keesey argues that White errs by equating Siegel with the author (14). Keesey acknowledges, however, that a comment from the preface to Slow Learner (Pynchon's only collection of short fiction) seems to encourage such a reading. Writing in 1984, 25 years after the publication of his first short story, Pynchon confesses that "[a] pose I found congenial in those days--fairly common, I hope, among pre-adults--was that of somber glee at any idea of mass destruction or decline (13). Pynchon's decision to leave "Mortality and Mercy" out of Slow Learner might lead one to conclude that Pynchon could no longer muster any sophomoric delight in the killing spree that takes place at the end of the story. Having failed to counter White's critique of Pynchon, Keesey seeks to rehabilitate Siegel, a move that makes defending Pynchon unnecessary. Keesey asserts that the story focuses not on the horror of Siegel's indifference but on the conditions that created it. "Pynchon," he contends, "is the author who shows us step by step what hereditary and environmental pressures led to Siegel's confusion and formed the background to his pose of indifference" (14). Keesey strains to depict "Mortality and Mercy" as a neo-realistic examination of the liberal axiom that criminals are simply products of their environment. Keesey is not the only critic to mischaracterize Siegel's deadly shrug. Joseph Slade, for example, describes Siegel as a hysteric who "[b]y loosing the berserk Indian [Irving Loon] ... has acted as prophet and healer to the waste land; he has healed its sickness by annihilation" (7). While Slade certainly doesn't endorse Siegel's behavior, his language suggests that Siegel isn't particularly accountable for his actions. Rather than blaming Siegel's ndifference on hereditary and environmental pressures, Slade presents an insanity defense, portraying Siegel as a lunatic who attempts to save his flock by destroying them. As we shall see, though, Siegel is far too calculating and self-aware to escape judgement so easily. David Seed's assessment of Siegel is even more sympathetic. Following up on Slade's notion that Siegel "performs as a mock-priest partly because he is forced to act out his resemblances to Lupescu," Seed suggests that Siegel's culture pushes him into this role of false priest (22). He explains that Siegel's quotations from ritual verge on parody because they are mimicking an empty form, a relic of Siegel's cultural inheritance which was dead even before it reached him. The religious references thus gesture towards absent spaces and strengthen our sense of the hollowness of contemporary culture. (22) By focusing on the forces that shape Siegel's behavior (heredity and environment; religious delusions; culture), Keesey, Slade, and Seed fail to acknowledge--much less explore--the moral questions that surround Siegel's actions. Consequently, they are themselves guilty of shrugging off--or, at the very least, downplaying the seriousness of--the murders. And, by doing so, they reinforce White's accusation that "Mortality and Mercy" (and, by extension, all postmodern fiction) is morally suspect. Siegel's cavalier attitude toward Irving Loon's rampage clearly merits a fuller examination. And although I disagree with White's assessment of "Mortality and Mercy" (as well as his decision to use Pynchon as a platform from which to attack American liberalism), it is appropriate to ask if Pynchon takes Loon's murders as lightly as Siegel does. John Dugdale identifies a reference that suggests that this question of Pynchon's culpability is actually central to the story. Grossman, Siegel's college roommate, describes the conflicted Siegel as a "House divided against itself" (197). Dugdale notes that this quotation from the Gospel of Matthew (12: 25) "closely follows" this pivotal passage: I tell you this: there is not a thoughtless word that comes from men's lips but they will have to account for it on the day of judgement. For out of your own mouth you will be acquitted; out of your own mouth you will be condemned. (21) In light of this passage, the critical debate surrounding the story, and the fact that language prompts--and makes Siegel an accomplice to--Loon's massacre, it seems clear that "Mortality and Mercy" compels us to answer the following question: How responsible are we (Siegel, Pynchon, the reader) for our words? --to be cont'd ... __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Address AutoComplete - You start. We finish. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From monropolitan at yahoo.com Fri Aug 20 21:54:08 2004 From: monropolitan at yahoo.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 19:54:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Giving Destruction a Name and Face Message-ID: <20040821025408.21804.qmail@web50704.mail.yahoo.com> ... continuing from Vincent King, "Giving Destruction a Name and Face: Thomas Pynchon's 'Mortality and Mercy in Vienna,'" Studies in Short Fiction, Vol. 35, No. 1 (Winter 1998), pp. 13-21 ... Siegel's responsibility is easy to establish, for he not only anticipates the attack but actually instigates it. Having discovered that Irving Loon is suffering from Windigo psychosis--a type of paranoia that leads to murder and cannibalism--Siegel deliberately prompts Loon's attack when he says "Windigo" to him. And in the "sixty seconds" he has to decide whether to try to stop Loon or just walk away, we learn that the "still small Jesuit voice" inside of Siegel is "vaunted with" a "sense of exhilaration" (200). Indeed, Siegel's only regret is "that Irving Loon would be the only one partaking of any body and blood, divine or otherwise" (201). In other words, the only thing that would be more spiritually satisfying than Loon shooting a roomful of innocents would be a roomful of Loons shooting each other. Not only does Siegel not want to stop the massacre; he actually wants everyone--except himself of course--to join in this bloody communion. According to Slade, Siegel actually believes that Loon's massacre will redeem this Washington wasteland. As these passages illustrate, though, Siegel is under no such delusion. Instead, he relishes the godlike feeling that comes from holding the lives of others in his hands. But Pynchon also appears to be implicated in Siegel's crime. After all, the horror of Siegel's unholy vision is magnified by the fact that the reader has been encouraged to believe that Siegel may be a Christ-figure who can save this "Sick Crew." Siegel is Jewish, 30, and had once "regarded himself" as both a "healer" and a "prophet" (182). His college roommate even calls him Stephen, a name that links him to the Christian martyr. Furthermore, Siegel becomes (like Lupescu before him) a "father confessor" for the "bent souls" of the apartment (99,193). Having planted the idea that Siegel might reject the "intradepartmental scheming and counterscheming" of his job at the Commission to "work for these parishioners a kind of miracle," Pynchon then fails to meet this expectation (183,199). This authorial teasing leaves readers like White with the impression that Loon's massacre is a merely a plot device, one that not only shocks and makes fun of the reader but also underscores Pynchon's own indifference to human suffering. Yet while Pynchon teases the reader by hinting that Siegel might be a messiah, there are more convincing signs that he is a psychopath. And it is the reader's indifference to these signs that makes us an accessory to Siegel's crime and allows Pynchon to explore his actual subject: the moral cost of misreading. One of the first and clearest indications that Siegel is a monster rather than a messiah is a comment by Grossman, his college roommate. Grossman, we learn, "taunted" Siegel for having a "small Jesuit voice which kept him from being either kicked around or conscious of guilt or simply ineffective like so many of the other Jewish boys on campus ..." (183). Since Siegel is the subject of Grossman's taunts, Siegel automatically has the reader's sympathy. Furthermore, Grossman's critique actually sounds like a compliment: Siegel does not allow himself to be kicked around, and he is an effective force on campus. But by sandwiching the fact that Siegel does not feel guilt between two positive comments, Pynchon encourages us to overlook what a gross man Siegel actually is. Only psychopaths do not feel guilt. Thus, Siegel's provocation of Loon is only a shock if the reader glosses over this crucial piece of evidence. Siegel's actions, deplorable as they are, are consistent with the fact that he is incapable of feeling remorse. Moreover, by allowing Grossman to note that his roommate lacks a conscience, Pynchon establishes his implicit disapproval of Siegel and his fatal shrug. There is further evidence, however, that Siegel could never be the savior that the guests--and readers--long for. In addition to being unable to experience guilt, he also lacks the capacity to care for others. When Siegel was thirteen, his cousin Miriam died of cancer. Siegel "still remembered Miriam's husband cursing Zeit the doctor, and the money wasted on the operations, and the whole AMA, crying unashamed in this dim hot room with the drawn shades" (182). Later, when Siegel's brother goes "to Yale to take premed," he orries "that Mike whom he loved would turn out to be only a doctor, like Zeit, and be cursed someday too by a distraught husband in rent garments, in a twilit bedroom" (182). As before, this passage initially seems to paint a positive portrait of Siegel. Struck by the pettiness of Miriam's husband (who appears to grieve for the lost money as much as his dead wife), Siegel wants to protect his brother from the untidy world of human emotions, a world where pettiness, anger, and genuine grief can coexist in one dim hot room. But surely the curses of a grieving husband do not outweigh the benefits of a life of service. Seen in this light, Siegel's concern over his brother's career choice looks more like a manifestation of his own fear of being burdened by the "trodden-on and disaffected" than brotherly love (190). This hypothesis is confirmed when Siegel identifies Miriam's funeral as the first time he felt the strain of caring for others. As he tires of playing father confessor at Lupescu's party, he reflects that he "often thought that if all the punks, lushes, coeds in love, woebegone PFC's--the whole host of trodden-on and disaffected ... were placed end to end they would surely reach from here back to the Grand Concourse and a timid spindle-shanked boy in a slashed necktie" (190). Siegel's language reveals a fierce disdain for those in need and shows that he is uniquely unsuited to offer anyone a "tangible salvation" (199). Moreover, Siegel's worry that his brother "would turn out to be only a doctor" (italics added) should remind us that he, on the other hand, desires to be a prophet/healer (182). This sounds like a laudable goal, but in Siegel's case it is simply a further i ndication of his hubris. Siegel's reluctance to face the spectacle of human suffering makes him want to operate on a higher realm. According to Siegel, for a prophet/healer "there is no question of balance sheets or legal complexity ... the minute you become involved with anything like that you are something less--a doctor, or a fortune-teller" (182). In short, Siegel has created a role for himself (prophet/healer/god) that allows him to avoid "the badlands of the heart" (192). This is a region, Siegel explains, in which shadows, and crisscrossed threads of inaccurate self-analysis and Freudian fallacy, and passages where the light and perspective were tricky, all threw you into that heightened hysterical edginess of the sort of nightmare it is possible to have where your eyes are open and everything in the scene is familiar, yet where, flickering behind the edge of the closet door, hidden under the chair in the corner, is this je ne sais quoi de sinistre which sends you shouting into wakefulness. (192) This fear of descending into the "foul rag-and-bone shop of the heart" prevents Siegel from interceding on the behalf of Lupescu's guests. --to be cont'd ... _______________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Win 1 of 4,000 free domain names from Yahoo! Enter now. http://promotions.yahoo.com/goldrush From monropolitan at yahoo.com Fri Aug 20 22:02:14 2004 From: monropolitan at yahoo.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 20:02:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Giving Destruction a Name and Face Message-ID: <20040821030214.23762.qmail@web50704.mail.yahoo.com> ... and still from Vincent King, "Giving Destruction a Name and Face: Thomas Pynchon's 'Mortality and Mercy in Vienna,'" Studies in Short Fiction, Vol. 35, No. 1 (Winter 1998), pp. 13-21 ... While Siegel aspires to transcend human limitations and problems, he tends to regard those around him as inhuman. At first, Grossman seems equally callous, doubting "the presence of any civilization outside of Cook County ..." (188). One night, however, under the influence of Santayana, Eliot, booze, and "the company of Radcliffe girls," Grossman admits, somewhat grandly, "that maybe there were a few human beings in Boston after all" (188). Siegel complains that this was "the first tiny rent in that mid-western hauteur which he [Grossman] had carried up to now as a torero carries his cape" (188). Grossman's recognition of other human beings, according to Siegel's logic, leaves him as vulnerable as a matador without a cape. Siegel admires (and shares) Grossman's sense of superiority, and when Grossman adopts a more egalitarian worldview, he loses Siegel's respect. Siegel explains that "after that night it was all downhill" for Grossman (189). This assessment seems to be corroborated when Siegel finds Grossman "standing in front of the mirror, umbrella under one arm, eyebrows raised superciliously and nose arched loftily, reciting 'I parked my car in Harvard yard,' over and over ..." (189). The absurdity of this scene, coupled with the fact that Siegel flinches at "the extent of his roommate's dissipation," coaxes the reader into overestimating Siegel's moral acumen and into overlooking the importance of Grossman's discovery that he wasn't the only human being in Boston (189). Gross-man's mistake is not that he drops his hauteur, as Siegel claims, but that Grossman recognizes only a few human beings in Boston--namely those who attend elite universities. Grossman is a snob, but, unlike Siegel, he is slowly emerging from his suffocating solipsism. While Siegel remains single, Grossman marries (a "Wellesley girl"), and although we can imagine Grossman and his wife living narrow, bourgeois lives, his marriage indicates a willingness to enter the human arena of love and loss--even if he does so by posing as a Boston Brahmin (189). Siegel, however, is the story's most accomplished poseur. His masquerade as a savior or a father confessor fools everyone--not just the reader. Lucy believes that Siegel has "sympathy for anybody who gets kicked around" (190). Similarly, Debby Considine confides to Siegel that he appears "compassionate" (193). Even Brennan has heard that Siegel is "a pretty sympathetic guy" (198). Nevertheless, Siegel's priestly demeanor is only a diversion. Like the torero's cape, it distracts and protects, allowing Siegel to distance himself from others. While this appears to be an unusual goal, Siegel's refusal to ecognize other human beings allows him to remain free of guilt and prevents him from being burdened with caring for others. In short, if the people around him are inferior, somehow less than human, he can avoid the realm of moral obligations. But the effectiveness of Siegel's hauteur/cape depends on his ability to identify the beast that threatens him. And Siegel, like the reader, initially has difficulty identifying destruction. He reflects in the story's opening pages that "here he was, thirty and on the way to becoming a career man, and not particularly aware of destruction mainly because he was unable to give it a name or a face, unless they were Rachel's and this he doubted" (183). Associating Rachel, his girlfriend, with destruction seems odd. But as we have just seen, establishing a genuine human relationship would expose Siegel to the vagaries of the human heart. So, while he can pose as a boyfriend or a father confessor, he cannot afford to let that pose drop. Irving Loon, then, presents two distinct threats to Siegel. First, if Siegel remains in the apartment, he runs the risk of being gunned down. Second, Loon's impending rampage presents a moral dilemma, a "case of conscience" that forces Siegel to consider whether he, like Grossman, should let down his hauteur and recognize other human beings (199). Siegel, of course, finds this option too risky and walks away. Appalled by his indifference, the reader discovers that life in the badlands, with all its risks and confusion, is preferable to Siegel's "monumental . . . coolness" (194). __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From monropolitan at yahoo.com Fri Aug 20 22:10:17 2004 From: monropolitan at yahoo.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 20:10:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Giving Destruction a Name and Face Message-ID: <20040821031017.26608.qmail@web50704.mail.yahoo.com> ... and finishing up Vincent King, "Giving Destruction a Name and Face: Thomas Pynchon's 'Mortality and Mercy in Vienna,'" Studies in Short Fiction, Vol. 35, No. 1 (Winter 1998), pp. 13-21 ... Siegel, we are told, lives in a "country where there were drinks to be mixed and bon mots to be tossed out carelessly" . . . (189). By the end of the story, however, the reader understands that the careless use of language (the very crime that Pynchon has been accused of), or the refusal to use it at all, can lead to disaster. But if Siegel's moral failure boils down to his careless use of language, the reader's moral failure can be attributed to careless reading. Loon's moral failure stems from his Windigo psychosis, a condition that causes him to identify with a mythological figure who feeds on human flesh. Few of us are in danger of identifying with either Loon or this mythic monster. Yet most readers, despite Pynchon's warnings, identify with Siegel, who is simply a more clever cannibal. Like Loon, then, the reader also suffers from a form of Windigo psychosis. To blame Pynchon for this unflattering diagnosis--or simply to refuse to acknowledge it--is itself a moral failure. In the introduction to Slow Learner, Pynchon observes that "[w]hen we speak of 'seriousness' in fiction ultimately we are talking about an attitude toward death--how characters may act in its presence, for example, or how they handle it when it isn't so immediate" (5). Siegel's attitude toward death (and life) is repugnant. But Pynchon's real subject in "Mortality and Mercy" isn't Siegel's attitude toward death but the reader's. Pynchon, one imagines, must have been disappointed by both of the critical positions outlined earlier. Keesey, Slade, and Seed minimize Siegel's culpability. Faced with the presence of death, they make excuses and equivocate. And while White responds appropriately in the "presence" of death, he doesn't do nearly as well when "it isn't so immediate." He misses the early signs of Siegel's amorality as well as Pynchon's implicit criticism of Siegel's behavior. Most important, White fails to recognize that we misread Siegel because we tend to read, especially in the absence of death (or some equally dramatic situation), indifferently. And indifference, Pynchon shows us, is deadly, both in extreme cases (Loon's attack) as well as in less dramatic ones (evaluating Siegel). In White's haste to distance himself from Siegel's position, he overlooks the fact that it is Pynchon who nudges the reader toward the moral high ground. [Notes] Despite the stridency of these comments, White also observes that "Mortality and Mercy" "is one of the finest short stories published since the war" (55). While most critics may not be willing to go that far, there is a general Consensus that "Mortality and Mercy" is one of Pynchon's best short stories. Pynchon's first published short story, "The Small Rain," appeared in the March issue of the Cornell Writer. "Mortality and Mercy" was published that same spring in Epoch, another Cornell publication. I will suggest that other portions of the preface demonstrate that "Mortality and Mercy" meets Pynchon's own criteria for serious or responsible fiction. Pynchon's decision to omit "Mortality and Mercy" from Slow Learner may be attributed to the perception, voiced by White, that the story validates Loon's violence. Although Keesey is careful to note that Siegel "is never without some remaining freedom of choice," this freedom seems negligible when compared to the hereditary and environmental forces that shape his life (5). Moreover, Keesey responds to the charge that Siegel's indifference is a product of Pynchon's own confused liberalism by characterizing the story as a dramatization of liberal ideas about crime--hardly an effective strategy. The other possibility, of course, is that Siegel himself wishes to engage in this bloody melee. But, as I will argue, Siegel is motivated by his desire to remain above the human fray. While Siegel doesn't participate himself, he has the satisfaction of "knowing it was he who had set it all in motion" (200). He finds, in other words, that it is more satisfying--and safer--to "manoeuvre" others" (183). Siegel does think of Loon's assault as a "miracle," but there is no indication that Siegel believes that this miracle will save the his new friends or purify this modern-day Gomorrah (200). Loon's act is a miracle only in the sense that it saves him from caring about or, worse, taking responsibility for Lupescu's guests. Jacqueline Smetak contends that "the process of reading or interpreting a text" is "the central theme of his [Pynchon's] fiction" (66). Unfortunately, Smetak never fully develops this idea. John Dugdale, one of the few critics to consider fully the moral implications of the story, contends that "Mortality and Mercy" "is liable to implicate its readers" in two ways. First, the text immerses the reader "in the complex reticulation of the surface text and to some extent in the (psychoanalytical, literary, political) latent text" (36). Second, the story explores "a moral sickness and paralysis shared with the characters, and a complicity in the destructive impulse, or in national crime" (36). Dugdale primarily focuses on how the thick pattern of allusions in "Mortality and Mercy" forces readers into a "textual and ethical" "jungle" where they must establish how the references to an assortment of texts illuminate the characters and their actions (36). While Dugdale examines how the act of reading Pynchon's text implicates the reader, I am interested in why readers misread the early indications of Siegel's moral indifference and how Pynchon uses this gaffe to illustrate the moral cost of misreading. The fact that Siegel is (partially) governed by a Jesuit voice suggests that matters of conscience are important to him. Yet this voice accounts for his inability to feel guilt; and, as we have already seen, the Jesuit half of Siegel actually relishes the thought of orchestrating Loon's attack. Although his Jewish half is described as more "gentle," when Siegel must decide between warning the guests or saving himself, "[i]t took no more than five seconds for the two sides to agree that there was really only one course to take" (200,201). Siegel is only 13 when his cousin dies, but his aversion to caring for others remains a part of his character. "In the army," for example, "he had lived by a golden rule of Screw the Sergeant before He Screweth Thee"; and "later in college he had forged meal tickets, instigated protest riots and panty raids," and even "manipulated campus opinion through the school newspaper" (183). We know that this boy is Siegel because at Miriam's funeral he sits in a room over the Grand Concourse and stares "at the symbolic razor slash halfway up his black necktie . . ." (182). Until this moment of weakness, Grossman "had remained unmarred, majestically sneering" and "happy-go-lucky" (188). This is precisely the pose that Siegel wishes to maintain. Warning the guests of (or trying to stop) Loon's attack would force Siegel to abandon his Olympian indifference. And just as those suffering from Windigo psychosis dehumanize others so that they can consume them without guilt, the reader misperceives Siegel's parishioners. Until the very end of the party, both Siegel and the reader see this long line of misfits as comic or pathetic annoyances. But when Pynchon allows Siegel to go sailing out of that room, condemning Harvey, Lucy, Debby, Brennan, Loon, and the others to their deaths, the reader is forced to admit that these misfits deserve a more compassionate reading. Five years after the publication of "Mortality and Mercy," John Hawkes, in a now famous interview, described his own work in similar terms. Characterizing his "comic method," he explains that one of its "functions" is to provide "a means for judging human failings as severely as possible; it's a way of exposing evil (one of the pure words I mean to preserve) and of persuading the reader that even he may not be exempt from evil" (146). WORKS CITED Dugdale, John. Thomas Pynchon: Allusive Parables of Power. New York: St. Martin's, 1990. Hawkes, John. "John Hawkes: An Interview." Wisconsin Studies in Contemporary Literature 6 (1965): 141-55. Keesey, Douglas. "The Politics of Doubling in 'Mortality and Mercy.'" Pynchon Notes 24-25 (Spring-Fall 1989): 5-19. Pynchon, Thomas. "Mortality and Mercy in Vienna." Epoch 9 (Spring 1959): 195-213. Rpt. Stories from Epoch, the First 50 Years, 1947-1964. Ed. Baxter Hathaway. Ithaca: Cornell UP, 1966. 181-201. ------. Slow Learner: Early Stories. New York: Little, 1984. Seed, David. The Fictional Labyrinths of Thomas Pynchon. Iowa City: U of Iowa P, 1988. Slade, Joseph W. Thomas Pynchon. New York: Lang, 1990. Smetak, Jacqueline. "Thomas Pynchon's 'Mortality and Mercy in Vienna': Major Themes in an Early Work." Iowa Journal of Literary Studies 4.1 (1993): 65-76. White, Allon. "Ironic equivalence: a reading of Thomas Pynchon's 'Mortality and Mercy in Vienna.'" Critical Quarterly 23.3 (Autumn 1981): 55-62. _______________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Win 1 of 4,000 free domain names from Yahoo! Enter now. http://promotions.yahoo.com/goldrush From isread at btopenworld.com Fri Aug 20 23:53:48 2004 From: isread at btopenworld.com (Paul Nightingale) Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 05:53:48 +0100 Subject: m&m's in v Message-ID: <000001c4873a$dc01e0a0$0201a8c0@Foucault> In MMIV Siegel's recollections are juxtaposed to the stories told to him by other characters; hence, for the reader, his narrative function changes, and instead of simply referring to him as 'protagonist' it might be appropriate to consider the different ways in which this character is related to the rest of the story. We accompany Siegel to the party while learning about his past life; and then sit with him on the margins of the party to listen to Rachel, Lucy, Debby as they, in turn, give detailed accounts of action (and relationships) elsewhere. In terms of the narrative, we can say this two-fold function corresponds to an 'old' and a 'new' Siegel (the latter role foisted on him by Lupescu, of course). Throughout, once the party has started, 'old Siegel' will reassert himself in the form of flashbacks triggered by something someone else (Lucy, Debby) has said. I would suggest that these triggers operate differently, have different narrative functions (ie it's not just a case of flashback following speech following flashback, etc). The final flashback, triggered by Debby's use of "melancholia", begins as others did with Siegel's personal recollection, this time of an anthropology lecture; his ability to 'place' "melancholia" ("[t]he old memory bank was still functioning after all") is reassuring. Note that for Siegel the word doesn't specifically refer to the Ojibwa: it refers in the first instance to Debby's choice of a technical term, and then to the recalled lecture and the scene with Grossmann. The text observes that Debby might have said "melancholy": which term, not associated with specialist discourse, wouldn't have had the same meaning for Siegel (and no doubt for Debby also). The anthropological information offered about the Ojibwa has, therefore, two functions. Firstly, it takes the story to another level (and according to Holton Pynchon hasn't bothered to rewrite his source material here--it serves as found material in a story that makes much use of cultural references as found material); and this in turn prepares the reader for the conclusion. Secondly, the 'specialist knowledge' links old and new Siegels; and also confirms the relationship of Siegel and Debby, each being quite self-absorbed (ie the fact that she is using specialist language and he recognises as much is more important that the fate of the Ojibwa). Upon meeting Debby, Siegel is compelled to contribute something, "flipping over a stack of mental IBM cards frantically .. to provide material ..." etc when she asks if he knows the Ojibwa. Apparently the knowledge is there, "but he was damned if he could pin it down" until she has spoken the key word. From monropolitan at yahoo.com Sat Aug 21 10:03:31 2004 From: monropolitan at yahoo.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 08:03:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Wood on Current Fiction In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040821150331.39035.qmail@web50710.mail.yahoo.com> So would I. As opposed to his screenplays. So let me know if you can find copies of these ... Les Gommes (1969) http://imdb.com/title/tt0064378/ In the Labyrinth (1976) http://imdb.com/title/tt0074674/ La belle captive (1983) http://imdb.com/title/tt0085226/ But I'm guessing yr familiar with the stuff he wrote/directed expressly for the screen ... http://imdb.com/name/nm0730237/ ... though I didn't realize he played Goncourt in Raoul Ruiz's Time Regained (1999), and I saw that a couple/three times. Of course, Robbe-Grillet, along with fellow, er, romanistes nouvelles ('zat right, Michel?) like Claude Simon (see esp. Triptych and Conducting Bodies) and (fellow lady screenwriter as well) Marguerite Duras, is, in his own inimitable (or maybe it's eminently imitable) way, greatly indebted to cinema (that "chosime" thing et al.). David Lynch oughtta do, say, AR-G's Djinn someday, both Lost Highway and Mulholand Drive read like R-G novels ... --- Joel Katz wrote: > oh, yeah? i'd sure like see somebody try to film a > robbe-grillet novel. > lol. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From monropolitan at yahoo.com Sat Aug 21 10:21:44 2004 From: monropolitan at yahoo.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 08:21:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: MMV: Context In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040821152144.49567.qmail@web50705.mail.yahoo.com> No one snipes more constantly than you, Robt. Nor is anyone snippier. Me, i snip. Cut. Paste. Whatever. I'm generally not so presumptious as to presume that my own observations will be what is of primary interest in the discussion at large, so ... so raw material. Sometimes stream of consciously. Use it or not. Me, I generally skip all the (snippy, sniping) commentary you presumably spend your astonishingly copious free time on (I've often neither time nor patience), scanning instead for the inevitable snippety snipety moment(a). See, e.g., below. Face it, Roberto, this just plain isn't "your" list, no matter how much you'd like it all, lifeforms, accreted debris, whatever, to orbit around you as the self-deluded star at its center. You seemingly dream of speaking from the podium, down at us, uninterrupted, whilst we swoon and scribble ("50 pens ..."). I'm guessing this sin't going on in real life, as I can't imagine anyone actually teaching would have the time for this the way you do, but ... well, seeing as the Austrlian cent is a bit shy of three quarters of yr good ol' American penny .... --- jbor wrote: > > PS I agree with Terrance. The constant sniping, > off-topic posts and avalanche of cut-and-paste > ballast do serve to stifle discussion and deter > new subscribers, however many "voices" there might > be. Posting a definition of "torero" or informing > us who TS Eliot was is a waste of bandwidth. The > name "Lucy" in 'MMV' has no more connection to St > Lucy than it does to Lucille Ball or Wordsworth -- > or, if it does, that connection is not established > simply by googling up a bio. Signal to noise ratio > for August 2004 stands at no more than 1-2%. My 2 > cents. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From monropolitan at yahoo.com Sat Aug 21 11:16:37 2004 From: monropolitan at yahoo.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 09:16:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: LPPM MMV "Esoteric Language" In-Reply-To: <20040820014410.14893.qmail@web50704.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20040821161637.12406.qmail@web50702.mail.yahoo.com> Worshipping at City�s Literary Shrines By JOE EATON Special to the Planet By JOE EATON Special to the Planet (08-20-04) San Francisco has Mark Twain; Oakland has Jack London. Berkeley has had its share of literary lights as well. Some�George R. Stewart, who memorably destroyed the town in Earth Abides; Robert Hass, Maxine Hong Kingston, Josephine Miles, Ishmael Reed�had, or have, university connections. The town has also been hospitable to Beat poets, speculative-fiction writers, and other non-Establishment types. Heyday Books has an entire anthology (Berkeley! A Literary Tribute) of fiction, poetry and memoir set in Berkeley, with contributors running the gamut from John Kenneth Galbraith to Thomas Pynchon. For most of what follows, I�m indebted to Don Herron�s The Literary World of San Francisco and its Environs (City Lights, 1985). Just after writing Howl in 1955, Allen Ginsberg moved from San Francisco to 1624 Milvia St. in Berkeley, now the site of a nondescript apartment building. Jack Kerouac described the cottage that once stood there in The Dharma Bums, as the home of poet �Alvah Goldbook.� Shopping for produce in Berkeley inspired Ginsberg to write �A Supermarket in California,� with its vision of Walt Whitman �poking among the meats in the refrigerator and eyeing the grocery boys.� At 1943 Berkeley Way, now swallowed by an apartment complex, Kerouac first saw On the Road in print. Kerouac�s mother and the legendary Neal Cassady were there when he opened the package from Viking Press. Yes, Beat icons had mothers, and Jack Kerouac had a close, if troubled, relationship with his. 1325 Arch St., in the hills north of campus, was the home of anthropologist Alfred Kroeber and his second wife, Theodora Kroeber, author of Ishi in Two Worlds. Their Bernard Maybeck-designed house is also the birthplace of their daughter, science fiction and fantasy writer Ursula K. LeGuin (The Left Hand of Darkness). Another genre fiction landmark is Greyhaven, in the first block of El Camino Real, where Marion Zimmer Bradley, creator of Darkover, presided over a communal sanctuary for fantasy writers. Anthony Boucher (real name William Anthony Parker White), a key figure in fantasy, science fiction, and mystery fiction as author and editor, lived in the tan stucco house at 2805 Ellsworth St., and later on Dana near Derby. It was Boucher who first introduced the work of Jorge Luis Borges to American readers, in a short story he translated for the unlikely venue of Ellery Queen Mystery Magazine. Then there�s Philip K. Dick, dubbed �our own homegrown Borges� by LeGuin. Dick, who moved around a lot, was at 1126 Francisco St. for a while, in a frame house, now painted yellow, with a pine tree in front. Long before Blade Runner and Minority Report became hit movies, Dick�living hand to mouth�had to subsist on not-for-human-consumption frozen horsemeat from the Lucky Dog Pet Shop at 2154 San Pablo Ave. (several changes of ownership ago). There was talk at one point of creating a Lucky Dog Award for rising science fiction writers, but I don�t think this ever got off the ground. http://www.berkeleydaily.org/text/article.cfm?issue=08-20-04&storyID=19484 Courtesy o' Google News Alerts ... http://www.google.com/newsalerts?q=&hl=en So far, I've got "Pynchon" and "clingfilm" ... > "Presumably intelligent talk flickered around the > room with the false brightness of heat lightning: > in the space of a minute Siegel caught the > words 'Zen,' 'San Francisco,' and 'Wittgenstein,' > and felt a mild sense of disappointment, almost as > if he had expected some esoteric language, > something out of Albertus Magnus." (MMV, p. 7) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From monropolitan at yahoo.com Sat Aug 21 12:02:11 2004 From: monropolitan at yahoo.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 10:02:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: MMV: Context In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040821170211.73417.qmail@web50706.mail.yahoo.com> As do I, in re: things being a bit stuffy in certain corners here. Maybe some cross-ventillation ... --- jbor wrote: > > PS I agree with Terrance ... No, really, Robert, the constant "Pick me, teacher, I'm ever so smart" thing is, well, one thing, but the concurrent drive to denigrate everything that doesn't emanate from you or everyone who doesn't humor, placate or kowtow to--not to mention agree with--you, or in whatever way acknowledge yr presumed "genius," that's just plain annoying. Not to mention counter-productive. Somebody's gotta say this stuff ... No, you're a smart guy in a lot of ways, Rob, and I would note that I'm one of the few, perhaps the only, one here to note a few of 'em from time to time. Sure, you're stuffy, pretentious, even (remember, Rob, few know better than I do just how easy it is to come off as an instant expert on everything when yr online), but I do believe that, by and large, you've done yr time, and may yet continue to do so, so ... And I will always appreciate yr efforts to keep the last M&D reading going, 'cos you know that I know just how difficult it is to keep something like that up even for yr avg. two-week hosting stint. And you know the extra-special effort I went to for M&D. The joy of research. Future generations will undoubtedly thank us both. No, I'm not kidding ... And that's a nice paper you published in Pynchon Notes, even though (left-handed compliment alert) it deploys a certain poetic license you otherwise berate here, not in the least when I deploy it. There are insisputable traces of, say, Baudelaire or Pound, and likely one of, say, Mario Praz or Frances Yates in Pynchon, whereas discerning the Patrick White threads in Those Pynchonian Texts (texere, "to weave") requires a rather more Magickal Eye than you generally seem happy to see employed on list ... But (juggling back to the right hand here), it's still a nice paper. Anyone else here read it? Please do so. A side of Our Antipodean Friend we don't often see here (back to the left? well, okay ...). You also have an impressive way with knocking off fairly well-written and, at least at the level of basic mechanics (spelling, punctuation, what have you), error-free dispatches. You oughtta take up journalism. Maybe Doug has some contacts Down Under ... Remember when you used to harangue me both off and on list at the same time? Me, it takes forever for me to type, even when I know what I want to say, and we all know i rarely pause to proofread and/or edit, so ... So, anyway, the saints are not so much for Terrance as they are for those less Christian, and, esp., Catholic (we always head right for the cruellest and unusualest of martyrdoms in those Lives of the Saints, right, Mr. T?) who might stumble across 'em in Terrance's posts but are disinclined to open yet another window. Much, however, is simply there to be read into the record, in case somewhere down the line someone might find some use for it (students, translators, et al.) ... But, yeah, I don't generally explain why I, say, post dictionary definitions of certain terms (though here's a hint, at least on occasion: wordplay) or why I annotate certain items over and over again, Russian dolling the previous posts into the later ones (though here's another hint: recurring elements), but, well, I do things my way, you do things your way, difference is, I don't genrally get sniffy about it, is all ... __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From monropolitan at yahoo.com Sat Aug 21 14:26:43 2004 From: monropolitan at yahoo.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 12:26:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: TPPM Host List Update In-Reply-To: <001801c48261$4560b1e0$15830f18@adminln4hlpboo> Message-ID: <20040821192643.55901.qmail@web50702.mail.yahoo.com> Okay, I was wondering what "LPPM" stood for, and now I see I got it wrong from the start and just kept going. Which is what I'm willing to do (subbing "T" for "L") with "Togetherness" if there aren't any other takers. JUST to be a bastard, maybe. In spite of T 'n' R? TO spite T 'n' R? Nah, it's just what i would have signed up for had I not opened my big, er, keyboard and ended up with MMV instead. Let me know, though I think there WAS a taker for "Togethernes." At any rate, I'm provisionally finished with what I foresaw, at least, for MMV (my Pynchon Notes still being in storage and me not having much online time for the weekend as it is). So thanks for listening, and, hey, Terrance, Robert, thanks even for responding, however you so chose to do it. Oh, Tim ... --- Tim Strzechowski wrote: > Only 5 spots remaining: > > Aug. 9 - Aug. 22: "Mortality and Mercy in Vienna" > (1959) -- Dave Monroe > > Aug. 23 - Sept. 5: "Togetherness" (1960) -- ... _______________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Win 1 of 4,000 free domain names from Yahoo! Enter now. http://promotions.yahoo.com/goldrush From pynchonoid at yahoo.com Sat Aug 21 15:11:09 2004 From: pynchonoid at yahoo.com (pynchonoid) Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 13:11:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: MMV In-Reply-To: <20040821170211.73417.qmail@web50706.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20040821201109.82572.qmail@web40709.mail.yahoo.com> Thanks for the notes, Dave. Obviously, this story continues to repay close reading (going on half a century since its original publisher took a chance on a new author) and retains the ability to stimulate discussion. ===== http://pynchonoid.org "everything connects" __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Address AutoComplete - You start. We finish. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From monropolitan at yahoo.com Sat Aug 21 16:27:52 2004 From: monropolitan at yahoo.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 14:27:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: TPPM MMV The Gnostic Pynchon Message-ID: <20040821212752.25209.qmail@web50710.mail.yahoo.com> Well, a little downtime here, figured I might as well bat some clean-up. Having moved this past January and having vowed never to move the library again until I actually own the damn place, and having moved some 120 boxes of books alone in the first trip out (I've no idea what the grand total was), I didn't have ... Eddins, Dwight. The Gnostic Pynchon. Bloomington: Indiana UP, 1990. ... at hand. Of course, MIGHT have made a trip up to the university for their copy, but, well, just never got 'round to it. Fortunately, Kai posted this (below) some time back. A blast from the past ... From: lorentzen-nicklaus@[omitted] (lorentzen-nicklaus) To: pynchon-l@[omitted] Subject: SLSL: mortality & mercy in vienna/: eddins Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2003 14:34:24 +0100 + in "the gnostic pynchon" (bloomington/indianapolis 1990: iup) dwight eddins has on pp. 31-38 a very detailed interpretation of MMV with special reference to conrad's "heart of darkness". here are some extracts that relate to current list discussions: "since the introducion in Slow Learner is principally a humorous mea culpa for the collection's contents, one has to wonder whether 'mortality and mercy in vienna' lies outside the range of the repentable. pynchon omits it from the collection without explanation or even mention, a mystery enhanced by the conflict between Epoch's claim that this is pynchon's 'first published' story, and pynchon's own claim that this priority belongs to 'the small rain'. at any rate, the near-simulataneity of their appearance (spring 1959) makes it likely that pynchon saw fit to let only one twin live because the same genetic defects were grossly magnified in the other. the network of literary illusions that now brings him chagrin in rereading 'the small rain' is vastly enhanced in 'mortality' by a metastructure explicitly drawn from conrad's Heart of Darkness - a modernist classic of epistemological ambiguity - and buttressed with the modernist likes of santayana, t.s. eliot (once more), hemingway, and lorca. but here again, what can be condemned as artistic gaucherie can also be lauded as the beginning writer's ambition to achieve a thematic dimension beyond melodrama; and once again, this dimension reveals itself as a complex frame of gnostic preoccupations. (...) .... this is a vision of spiritual entropy, of available psychic energies dissipating to a 'whimper' like kurtz's final 'cry that was no more than a breath'. pynchon's dead souls are the party crew at lupescu's, the prototype of the whole sick crew that sets the tone of cultural malaise in V. their drunken boorishness and desperate hedonism, shot through with the pseudointellectual chatter of dilettantes and 'freudian cant' (pp. 210-211), are the symptoms of wretched lives that are little more than a gratuitous series of petty betrayels and vendettas and resultant bouts of guilt. forced to listen to their confessions in his role as lupescu's successor, siegal realizes that lupescu was beginning to experience a kurtz-like contamination from the living death around him. (...) .... the ojibwa was, if we can believe debby, 'happy back in ontario' (p. 207), where a life of harvest festivals, 'puberty rituals', and other ceremonies produced exactly the sort of cultural-religious communion lacking in the isolate, egocentric 'temples' of the lupescu group. we have here an anticipation of the herero tribal life described in Gravity's Rainbow --- a life of (for pynchon) normative solidarity before the depredations of general von trotha. that debby would see in this rich community life only 'wonderful local color' for her notebooks is a symptom of the spiritual anemia to which that life provides an alternative. (...) .... the point in 'mortality and mercy' is that debby and her crew themselves image the savage and amoral forces that oppress irving and starve him of his spiritual sustenance - thus, the gnostic reversal by which the victim turns avenger and oppressor, denying the humanity in whose name he had suffered. his mass murder and cannibalism are a barbaric thrust from the heart of nature's darkness against the artificial darkness fashioned by a decadent civilization. as 'father confessor' (p. 212) to these neurotic bacchanals, siegal grants this carnage the status of ritual purification, compounding the religious ironies already present with an admixture of christian heresy. the 'still small jesuit voice' (p. 213) in his head - a voice that he associates with machiavellian Realpolitik - urges him to go ahead with the 'miracle' that is now 'in his hands' by acquiescing in the slaughter. through a grotesque - and essentially gnostic - reversal of values, he will be bringing 'these parishioners ... a very tangible salvation. a miracle involving a host, true, but like no holy eucharist' (p. 212). this parody of christian terminology has the same purport of moral confusion as will the parody in The Crying of Lot 49 where the descent of a 'malign, unholy ghost' inaugurates a ritualistic orgy of torture and death. the consecration of the crew as 'host' is, of course, a desecration in the name of a religion that unleashes savage forces rather than containing them, and that locates 'salvation' in a kingdom of death. mercy, in this realm of value distortion, consists of engineering mortality among those who inhabit a living hell of compulsive, quasi-freudian self-analysis. it is necessary to destroy the greenwich-type village in order to save it./ this conceptual melange of opressor and oppressed, salvation and retribution, compromises siegal's attempt to escape the barbarization that destroyed kurtz, an earlier 'father confessor' in his own right." ... (pp. 31, 33, 36, 37) --- of course, eddins' voegelinesque notion of 'gnosticism' is not in touch with the actual ancient sources (see, if you're interested, James M. Robinson, ed., The Nag Hammadi Library) and also leaves the gnostic elements in christianity itself -"my kingdom is not of this world" (the gospel of john) - completely out. furthermore, the rather schematic distinction of 'gnostic' vs. 'orphic' is highly problematic when seen in the late rilke's light. dwight eddins, however, comes with his approach to presentable results, and he is among the very few who seriously address the spiritual dimension in pynchon's work. http://waste.org/mail/?list=pynchon-l&month=0303&msg=77343 So thanks again, Kai, not in the least for saving me more than a little typing. I'll see what I can do to get back to this along the way ... __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail is new and improved - Check it out! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From jbor at bigpond.com Sat Aug 21 18:38:10 2004 From: jbor at bigpond.com (jbor) Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 09:38:10 +1000 Subject: MMV: Windigo In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Another problem with King's article is that he attempts to lodge the entire blame for the blood-bath with Siegel. To make his case he says that Siegel whispering the word "Windigo" to irving Loon is a "provocation" and that he is the one who "instigates" the attack, where in fact Siegel is really only testing whether Loon is in the grip of "the Windigo". The events that unfold aren't deliberately provoked by Siegel at all. Debby Considine's role (her habit of "picking up male specimens and bringing them back with her") and the fact that David Lupescu has BAR rifles on his wall as decorative knick-knacks with ammunition handy are conveniently overlooked by King. Siegel's withdrawal from the party without warning the others or trying to prevent the massacre in some way is, or is meant to be, a shocking climax, and both the religious rationalisation he concocts and his shrug of indifference are appalling. However, the double entendre on the word "beaver" ("Succulent, juicy, fat", and cf. Kurt Vonnegut, Jr) which nudges this story about a mass murder into the realm of lowbrow comedy, and the story's final snipe, "What the hell, stranger things had happened in Washington", which is a political one, are pure Pynchon. best > on 21/8/04 4:41 AM, Ghetta Life wrote: > >> And the use >> of this "cannibal" to exact this judgment is almost racist. At the very >> least it is an overwrought contrivance. > > Indeed. To designate "the Windigo", which is a Native American spiritual > belief, as "a moral failure", is very much a type of religious > discrimination. (Note how the exalted state is labelled by the Western > anthropologist as a "psychosis", where within Western mythologies such > divine visions would be called "miracles".) Throughout the story Pynchon > identifies "the Windigo psychosis" with the Christian Eucharist, and that is > the spanner in the works which King has chosen to ignore. > > best > From Dedalus204 at comcast.net Sat Aug 21 23:50:23 2004 From: Dedalus204 at comcast.net (Tim Strzechowski) Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 23:50:23 -0500 Subject: TPPM Host List Update References: <20040821192643.55901.qmail@web50702.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <021e01c48803$8a663510$15830f18@adminln4hlpboo> To my recollection, no one opted to host Togetherness. WAS there a taker ???? Anyone ??? > [...] Let me know, though I > think there WAS a taker for "Togethernes." At any > rate, I'm provisionally finished with what I foresaw, > at least, for MMV (my Pynchon Notes still being in > storage and me not having much online time for the > weekend as it is). From ottosell at yahoo.de Sun Aug 22 01:33:02 2004 From: ottosell at yahoo.de (Otto) Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 08:33:02 +0200 Subject: MMV: Windigo References: Message-ID: <002601c48811$e156cc00$0101a8c0@i7t2q2> ----- Original Message ----- From: "jbor" To: Sent: Saturday, August 21, 2004 1:28 AM Subject: Re: MMV: Windigo > on 21/8/04 4:41 AM, Ghetta Life wrote: > > > And the use > > of this "cannibal" to exact this judgment is almost racist. At the very > > least it is an overwrought contrivance. > > Indeed. To designate "the Windigo", which is a Native American spiritual > belief, as "a moral failure", is very much a type of religious > discrimination. (Note how the exalted state is labelled by the Western > anthropologist as a "psychosis", where within Western mythologies such > divine visions would be called "miracles".) Throughout the story Pynchon > identifies "the Windigo psychosis" with the Christian Eucharist, and that > is the spanner in the works which King has chosen to ignore. > > best King doesn't do so: "Loon's moral failure stems from his Windigo psychosis, a condition that causes him to identify with a mythological figure who feeds on human flesh." This "stems from" is clearly different from "designate...as". His moral failure isn't his psychosis but the fact that he takes the gun and kills them all. This is caused by the psychosis. He's not starving from a lack of food but from a lack of soul. In the proper context the Windigo isn't a moral failure but something that guarantees the survival of the fittest. In the Washington D.C. context it won't help Loon at all. Spanning your thought further I come to the conclusion that divine madness is still madness. Whether it is called "miracle" or "psychosis" doesn't change the thing. That Pynchon "identifies "the Windigo psychosis" with the Christian Eucharist" is very clever, isn't it? One of those "ostentatious and often gratuitous references". As you've said, and I absolutely agree to it: "No one religion or perspective is privileged over any other as "the One True Faith" in the story (...)." Read carefully nobody can identify with Siegel or any other character in the story, Grossman maybe being the only exception. Otto From monropolitan at yahoo.com Sun Aug 22 11:33:38 2004 From: monropolitan at yahoo.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 09:33:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: MMV: Windigo In-Reply-To: <002601c48811$e156cc00$0101a8c0@i7t2q2> Message-ID: <20040822163338.78271.qmail@web50708.mail.yahoo.com> Well, I think that 'small Jesuit voice that kept him from being ... conscious of guilt" raised the proverbial scarlet standard for me. I've never quite been able to figure out quite what "Catholic guilt" is, either, but it could just be the water in which my fish with blissless ignorance thereof swims, so ... but Pynchon, like many Catholics (and then some), sure doesn't trust them Jesuits. Me, I figure I have maybe three options (beyond lottery/jackpot/sweepstakes winner) left to me: law, advertising, or the Society of Jesus. By the way, hope y'all are seeing The Corporation (2004) as it visits yr local theater ... --- Otto wrote: > Read carefully nobody can identify with Siegel > or any other character in the story, Grossman maybe > being the only exception. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From monropolitan at yahoo.com Sun Aug 22 11:37:52 2004 From: monropolitan at yahoo.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 09:37:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: TPPM Host List Update In-Reply-To: <021e01c48803$8a663510$15830f18@adminln4hlpboo> Message-ID: <20040822163753.70242.qmail@web50706.mail.yahoo.com> Well, let me know. I'm provisionally ready to start in on it tomorrow, if need be. Or even if need be not. Interestingly, though, searching the List archives yields zero hits for "Togetherness" ... http://www.waste.org/mail/?list=pynchon-l http://waste.org/pynchon-l/ Oh, Murthy, Oliver ... thanks ... --- Tim Strzechowski wrote: > To my recollection, no one opted to host > Togetherness. > > WAS there a taker ???? Anyone ??? __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Get it on your mobile phone. http://mobile.yahoo.com/maildemo From jbor at bigpond.com Sun Aug 22 13:54:01 2004 From: jbor at bigpond.com (jbor) Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 04:54:01 +1000 Subject: MMV: Windigo In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Vincent King says that "Loon's moral failure stems from his Windigo psychosis" (20). King is indeed designating this aspect of Irving Loon's cultural identity as a "moral failure". By contrast, the story does not state or indicate or imply that Loon, or his actions or his culture -- which are all one and the same thing in the context of the narrative -- suffer from a "moral failure". That is entirely King's construction, a product of his own cultural biases. The closest the text comes is in Siegel's recall of Professor Mitchell's attitude, "a permanently sarcastic smile twisting one side of his mouth", that "all cultures were equally mad, it was only the form that differed, never the content." "Psychosis" and "moral failure" are two very different things, of course, and Loon is presented by Pynchon as just doing what a young Ojibwa male naturally does. It's very apparent that Pynchon will later come to reject the facile and spurious connection he attempts to forge in this story between the Windigo ritual and the Christian Eucharist, and that this is another aspect of the work that prompted him to omit it from _SL_, virtually disowning it in the process. The difference is illustrated clearly in _Vineland_, where the text resists any identification between the Yurok belief in Tsorrek, "the world of the dead" (VL 386), and Western mythological constructions of "Hell". best > on 21/8/04 4:41 AM, Ghetta Life wrote: > >> And the use >> of this "cannibal" to exact this judgment is almost racist. At the very >> least it is an overwrought contrivance. > > Indeed. To designate "the Windigo", which is a Native American spiritual > belief, as "a moral failure", is very much a type of religious > discrimination. (Note how the exalted state is labelled by the Western > anthropologist as a "psychosis", where within Western mythologies such > divine visions would be called "miracles".) Throughout the story Pynchon > identifies "the Windigo psychosis" with the Christian Eucharist, and that is > the spanner in the works which King has chosen to ignore. > > best > From pynchonoid at yahoo.com Sun Aug 22 14:43:04 2004 From: pynchonoid at yahoo.com (pynchonoid) Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 12:43:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: MMV: Windigo In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040822194304.8989.qmail@web40702.mail.yahoo.com> --- jbor wrote: > By contrast, the story does not state or indicate or > imply that Loon, or his > actions or his culture -- which are all one and the > same thing in the > context of the narrative -- suffer from a "moral > failure". Pynchon's story closes with the clear implication that Loon is committing mass murder, an act which qualifies, just about everywhere (except, perhaps, in the mind of the odd Pynchon reader), as a moral failure. "Quietly Siegel strolled back through the kitchen, through the living room, taking his time, unnoticed by the crap shooters, opened the door, stepped out into the hall and closed the door behind him. He walked downstairs, whistling. At the first floor landing, he heard the first screams, the pounding of footsteps, the smashing of glass. He shrugged. What the hell, stranger things had happened in Washington. It was not until he had reached the street that he heard the first burst of the BAR fire. " ===== http://pynchonoid.org "everything connects" __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From jbor at bigpond.com Sun Aug 22 15:28:36 2004 From: jbor at bigpond.com (jbor) Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 06:28:36 +1000 Subject: MMV: Windigo In-Reply-To: Message-ID: BTW I'm not at all clear about how it's possible to judge Siegel as an "asshole" and a protagonist with whom no-one, including the author, could possibly identify, flatly asserting that this is the only correct way to read the story, and then suddenly turn around and say how "clever" the connection between the Windigo ritual and the Christian Eucharist is. It's through Siegel that Pynchon is making that connection, of course. best on 23/8/04 4:54 AM, jbor wrote: > Vincent King says that "Loon's moral failure stems from his Windigo > psychosis" (20). King is indeed designating this aspect of Irving Loon's > cultural identity as a "moral failure". > > By contrast, the story does not state or indicate or imply that Loon, or his > actions or his culture -- which are all one and the same thing in the > context of the narrative -- suffer from a "moral failure". That is entirely > King's construction, a product of his own cultural biases. The closest the > text comes is in Siegel's recall of Professor Mitchell's attitude, "a > permanently sarcastic smile twisting one side of his mouth", that "all > cultures were equally mad, it was only the form that differed, never the > content." "Psychosis" and "moral failure" are two very different things, of > course, and Loon is presented by Pynchon as just doing what a young Ojibwa > male naturally does. > > It's very apparent that Pynchon will later come to reject the facile and > spurious connection he attempts to forge in this story between the Windigo > ritual and the Christian Eucharist, and that this is another aspect of the > work that prompted him to omit it from _SL_, virtually disowning it in the > process. The difference is illustrated clearly in _Vineland_, where the text > resists any identification between the Yurok belief in Tsorrek, "the world > of the dead" (VL 386), and Western mythological constructions of "Hell". > > best > >> on 21/8/04 4:41 AM, Ghetta Life wrote: >> >>> And the use >>> of this "cannibal" to exact this judgment is almost racist. At the very >>> least it is an overwrought contrivance. >> >> Indeed. To designate "the Windigo", which is a Native American spiritual >> belief, as "a moral failure", is very much a type of religious >> discrimination. (Note how the exalted state is labelled by the Western >> anthropologist as a "psychosis", where within Western mythologies such >> divine visions would be called "miracles".) Throughout the story Pynchon >> identifies "the Windigo psychosis" with the Christian Eucharist, and that is >> the spanner in the works which King has chosen to ignore. >> >> best >> > From isread at btopenworld.com Sun Aug 22 15:26:24 2004 From: isread at btopenworld.com (Paul Nightingale) Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 21:26:24 +0100 Subject: MMV: Windigo Message-ID: <000001c48886$4bbb5560$0201a8c0@Foucault> Interesting to contemplate that the reader might identify with Grossmann. In an earlier post I suggested that one reason for the naming of Siegel might have been to draw attention to Grossmann as the roommate (and therefore as a stand-in for the author himself). Having read the story carefully I'm drawn more and more to Grossmann, not as someone to identify with, but as a character whose narrative function is indeed important. In the story Grossmann appears three times. When Siegel calls him "a schmuck" the text refuses to allow Grossmann his own voice, of course; his comments are reported, which means Siegel's own impressions are given priority. Subsequently, Siegel is distracted when Lucy's reference to Lupescu "going native" recalls Grossmann, his comments on Boston, his eventual marriage to the Radcliffe girl. In this second passage, Grossmann is allowed to speak, Siegel interrupting his recitation-pose. The extent to which these are 'his' words, of course, is debatable: like the "black umbrella ... and expensive tweeds and worsteds", his speech is part of a new (upwardly mobile) identity he is trying on. His "dissipation" is really something of a disappointment to Siegel, whose impressions are again given weight (although one might argue no longer unchallenged priority). What Siegel considers a loss (of "Midwestern hauteur"--or inverted snobbery, perhaps) leads to some kind of decline. Perhaps this is more of a comment on Siegel himself, currently negotiating a scene with Lucy, a substitute for the elusive Rachel and therefore some kind of reminder of his own unsatisfactory status: this betrayal of Grossmann, which is what his distorted memories amount to, is one way of dealing with who he himself is (or has become). The text notes that he once "secretly admired" Grossmann's "strong nasal rs": the only indication thus far that he "admired" anything about the "schmuck, "secretly" or otherwise draws attention to the speech that Grossmann, as recalled by Siegel, has been denied. When Grossmann appears for the third time, in the flashback triggered by Debby's use of "melancholia", he is finally allowed to speak. The actual words, "How yummy", are perhaps less important than the fact that he has "commented wryly" on Siegel's (over-the-top?) description of Windigo. The scene in question ("that night") follows the lecture with which the flashback opened. Siegel and Grossmann are still rooming together, although whether it precedes Grossmann's "dissipation", chronologically speaking, isn't made clear. However, the enthusiasm (even passion?) with which Siegel speaks ("he gestured dramatically") indicates a desire to impress Grossmann, or impress upon Grossmann the importance of the matter (and Grossmann's pointed response is in stark contrast to Siegel's own volubility). If the scene does precede the phase of their relationship in which Siegel has become disenchanted with Grossmann, then its narrative function is to turn the clock back, to replace an unpleasant memory with one rather more pleasant. On the other hand, if the scene were to follow "Grossmann standing in front of the mirror" etc, it might be of significance that Siegel is still trying to engage Grossmann in meaningful conversation. Grossmann's words do end the flashback, somewhat abruptly. In the first of their scenes, the summary "taunted him mercilessly" suggests that Grossmann himself has been voluble in needling Siegel, all of which indicates that the two scenes have been designed to mirror each other, to function as alternates, just as the story as a whole presents Grossmann as an alternate to Siegel. From paul.mackin at verizon.net Sun Aug 22 16:35:48 2004 From: paul.mackin at verizon.net (Paul Mackin) Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 17:35:48 -0400 Subject: MMV: Windigo In-Reply-To: <002601c48811$e156cc00$0101a8c0@i7t2q2> References: <002601c48811$e156cc00$0101a8c0@i7t2q2> Message-ID: <1093210547.2018.30.camel@localhost> On Sun, 2004-08-22 at 02:33, Otto wrote: > Read carefully nobody can identify with Siegel > or any other character in the story, Grossman maybe being the only > exception. This is because we're not 22, which seems to me about the age of Siegel despite some misdirection (30 indeed). 22 hapened also of course to be Pynchon's age, and he was writing from what he had experienced to date in life--college lectures, a lot of reading, a few mysteriously mascared girls at parties. I don't think the story is at all bad. King's analysis is complete baloney. Careless reading is dangerous to your health. Well, no more than careless literary criticism. If anyone is immature it it King, who suffers as a critic from an over supply of healthimindedness and insufficient appreciation of the self-estranged spirit as necessary to artistic development, not to say The Spirit itself. P had an early inkling. Is Ghetta Goethe? From monropolitan at yahoo.com Sun Aug 22 17:26:09 2004 From: monropolitan at yahoo.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 15:26:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Confronting the Monolith Message-ID: <20040822222609.93289.qmail@web50704.mail.yahoo.com> Hamill, John. "Confronting The Monolith: Authority And The Cold War In Gravity's Rainbow." Journal of American Studies, Vol. 33, No. 3 (December 1999): 417-36. Abstract One of the notable aspects of Gravity's Rainbow, if we consider it as an historical novel of a special kind, is the way in which �great� political leaders are barely mentioned. The carnival lacks the mock king, and the historical novel lacks the leader who embodies history. The explanation here is paradoxically historicist. Gravity's Rainbow explicitly addresses a constructed audience (in the Orpheus Theatre) in the Cold War and is about the formation of the Cold War in its techno-bureaucratic context. The realpolitik of authority in the Cold War context has changed. Bureaucratic constructions of System operate as the modus operandi for authority in the novel and they parallel the historical formation of Systems theory and analysis with such US organizations as RAND. This development represents, in the technologies and the discourses of the military and political strategists, a response to Hitler and the supposed tyranny and threat of Communism. The series of characters we encounter within the novel reflects different forms of entrapment and/or lines of flight in response to the authority of the System in what John Johnston has called an assemblage, or postmodern multiplicity. Containment and counterforce become metaphors which Pynchon scurrilously uses to subvert the moral righteousness of the Western Cold Warriors in their defense of a �free world� (paradoxically) under siege from an ever threatening Communism. Pynchon is interested not in the great historical figure, but in the relation of the individual to the System, militarily, scientifically, socially, and sexually. http://titles.cambridge.org/journals/journal_article.asp?mnemonic=AMS&pii=S0021875899006179 http://journals.cambridge.org/bin/bladerunner?30REQEVENT=&REQAUTH=0&500000REQSUB=&REQSTR1=S0021875899006179 http://www.baas.ac.uk/resources/jas/jasdets.asp?jas=33.3 PDF @ ... http://journals.cambridge.org/article_S0021875899006179 _______________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Win 1 of 4,000 free domain names from Yahoo! Enter now. http://promotions.yahoo.com/goldrush From monropolitan at yahoo.com Sun Aug 22 17:28:02 2004 From: monropolitan at yahoo.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 15:28:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: TPPM "Togetherness" Message-ID: <20040822222802.21799.qmail@web50703.mail.yahoo.com> Pynchon, Thomas H. [sic]. "Togetherness." Aerospace Safety 16:12 (December 1960): 6-8. http://www.vheissu.org/bio/eng_togetherness.htm http://www.pynchon.pomona.edu/uncollected/together.html http://www.themodernword.com/pynchon/pynchon_essays_together.html Main Entry: to�geth�er Pronunciation: t&-'ge-[th]&r Function: adverb Etymology: Middle English togedere, from Old English tog�dere, from tO to + g�dere together; akin to Middle High German gater together, Old English gaderian to gather 1 a : in or into one place, mass, collection, or group b : in a body : as a group 2 a : in or into contact (as connection, collision, or union) b : in or into association or relationship 3 a : at one time : SIMULTANEOUSLY b : in succession 4 a : by combined action : JOINTLY b : in or into agreement or harmony c : in or into a unified or coherent structure or an integrated whole 5 a : with each other -- used as an intensive after certain verbs b : as a unit : in the aggregate c : considered as a whole : counted or summed up - to�geth�er�ness noun ... http://m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=togetherness Boeing, Boeing: On February 22 1960, Thomas Pynchon began work for the Boeing Airplane Corporation in Seattle, Washington. During his final year at Cornell, Pynchon had published "The Small Rain" in 'The Cornell Writer', (not too hard a sell since he was on the editorial board), and "Mortality and Mercy in Vienna" to the Spring issue of Epoch, also published by the University, and edited by one of his English teachers Baxter Hathaway. Finishing Cornell, 2nd or 3rd in his class, he stayed in Ithaca for the Summer, before moving to New York and staying with friends in Greenwich Village and Riverside Drive, rather than home with his parents close at hand in Oyster Bay, Long Island. During this time, short stories were submitted. One went to James Silberman at the Dial magazine, who did not publish Pynchon, but referred him to an agent, Candida Donadio. She represented Nelson Algren who's work was featured in the first issue of The Dial in Fall '59. With Donadio's support and name recognition, she was also agent for the still hot Joseph Heller, "Lowlands" was sent to New World Writing. Corlies Smith (who would later edit "V." and would feature in Pynchon's career until at least the eighties), and his fellow magazine editors chose to publish the story in it's 16th issue, in 1960. Smith has said, he believed it is the first story for which Pynchon was paid. On reading other stories, the publishers were offered, an as yet un-finished, un-titled novel, plot unseen for $500 advance and $1,000 on completion. The advance was to facilitate the move from New York to Seattle. Pynchon at some point in 1960 moved into a rear apartment at 4709 Ninth Ave., N.E. in the University district of Seattle. This meant a commute of about ten mile to Boeing Aerospace Operations at E. Marginal Way. Boeing have denied that Pynchon was ever an employee, since they can find no records. However, the Boeing internal directories, shown here for the first time, show the exact nature of Pynchon's work. For the year 1960, Pynchon didn't feature in any directory, being both new and probably missing the publication of the guide. The first recorded post he held was with the Bomarc Service Information Unit, which included the Bomarc Service News magazine. As described to Files, technical writing at Boeing for the Bomarc project was 'by the book'. Work was assigned, the subject studied, for example a loading-pin mechanism, then a visit was made to the on site manufacturing and application of the pin, a chat with the design engineers, then the writing up of the paper, using a Boeing style-book as reference, before editorial approval. http://web.archive.org/web/20001218024500/pynchonfiles.com/Boeing,Boeing.htm Thomas Pynchon's Unseen Writings for Boeing May Get Published Thomas Pynchon--author of Gravity's Rainbow, The Crying of Lot 49, Mason & Dixon, and other works--is universally considered one of the greatest post-war novelists. Given that his output is not prodigious, his legions of fans have meticulously tracked down every word he's ever written, displaying the same zeal as Elizabethan scholars hunting for anything that came from Shakespeare's pen. They have located his introductions and cover blurbs for other authors, essays, album liner notes, a letter to the editor, an uncollected short story, and other bits and pieces. But one portion of Pynchon's work has almost completely eluded capture. From February 1960 to September 1962, Pynch was employed by Boeing, where he wrote technical articles that were only circulated within the company (and perhaps to some of Boeing's clients, which, in this case, would be the US and Canadian militaries). Both of his positions were in nuclear missile programs--first with the Bomarc Service Information Unit and later with the Minuteman Field Support Unit. The only one of these articles that has ever surfaced is "Togetherness," because it was reprinted in the Air Force magazine Aerospace Safety. The rest of the articles remain in Boeing's archives and are the intellectual property of that corporation. Hoping to find out more, I emailed Boeing's historian, Michael J. Lombardi. This was his reply on 25 February 2003: "Here is all we know on Pynchon. Thomas Pynchon did write articles for a monthly Boeing field service publication that ran during the 50s and 60s. Unfortunately there is no documentation or by-lines, so it is very difficult to determine which articles were written by Pynchon. Recently we allowed a literary researcher to aquire copies of the publications in an effort to determine which articles are Pynchon's. The researcher was going to write a book - so you might want to keep watch for it." I wrote back to Lombardi, asking him for the name of the researcher, but he replied that he no longer has that information. We can only hope that this literary sleuth can identify Pynch's articles and drag this unseen work by a literary master out of the memory hole http://www.thememoryhole.org/lit/pynchon-boeing.htm Wisnicki, Adam. "A Trove of New Works by Thomas Pynchon? Bomarc Service News Rediscovered." Pynchon Notes 46-49 (2000-2001): 9-34. http://www2.ham.muohio.edu/~krafftjm/contents.html And can anyone shed a little light on this (below) for us here? Kai? Kurt-Werner? Otto? Thanks ... http://www.schreibheft.de/docs/inhalt_61.html __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From monropolitan at yahoo.com Sun Aug 22 17:35:12 2004 From: monropolitan at yahoo.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 15:35:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Togetherness "The IM-99A Missile" Message-ID: <20040822223512.35790.qmail@web50710.mail.yahoo.com> "Airlifting the IM-99A missile, like marriage, demands a certain amount of 'togetherness' between Air Force and contractor. Two birds per airlift are onloaded by Boeing people and offloaded by Air Force people; in between is an airborne MATS C-124. One loading operation is a mirror-image of the other, and similar accidents can happen at both places. Let's look at a few of the safety hazards that have to be taken into account when Bomarcs are shipped...." (Togetherness) "the IM-99A missile" The supersonic Bomarc missiles (IM-99A and IM-99B) were the world's first long-range anti-aircraft missiles, and the first missiles that Boeing mass produced. The program also represented the first time Boeing designed and built launch facilities. It used analog computers, some of which were built by Boeing and had been developed for GAPA experiments during World War II. Authorized by the Air Force in 1949, Bomarc was the result of coordinated research between Boeing (Bo) and the University of Michigan Aeronautical Research Center (marc). The missiles were housed on a constant combat-ready basis in individual launch shelters in remote areas. The alert signal could fire the missiles around the country in 30 seconds. The Model A had a range of 200 miles, and the B, which followed, could fly 400 miles. Boeing built 700 Bomarc missiles between 1957 and 1964, as well as 420 launch systems. Bomarc was retired from active service during the early 1970s. http://www.boeing.com/history/boeing/bomarc.html The Bomarc was the only surface-to-air missile ever deployed by the U.S. Air Force. All other U.S. land-based SAMs were and are under the control of the U.S. Army. In 1946, Boeing started to study surface-to-air guided missiles under the USAAF project MX-606. By 1950, Boeing had launched more than 100 test rockets in various configurations, all under the designator XSAM-A-1 GAPA (Ground-to-Air Pilotless Aircraft). Because these tests were very promising, Boeing received a USAF contract in 1949 to develop a pilotless interceptor (a term then used by the USAF for air-defense guided missiles) under project MX-1599. The MX-1599 missile was to be a ramjet-powered, nuclear-armed long-range surface-to-air missile to defend the continental USA from high-flying bombers. The Michigan Aerospace Research Center (MARC) was added to the project soon afterwards, and this gave the new missile its name Bomarc (for Boeing and MARC).... ... In August 1955, the USAF discontinued the use of aircraft-like type designators for missiles, and the XF-99A and YF-99A became XIM-99A and YIM-99A, respectively. Originally the USAF had allocated the designation IM-69, but this was changed (possibly at Boeing's request to keep number 99) to IM-99 in October 1955. In October 1957, the first YIM-99A production-representative prototype flew with full guidance, and succeeded to pass the target within destructive range. In late 1957, Boeing received the production contract for the IM-99A Bomarc A interceptor missile, and in September 1959, the first IM-99A squadron became operational.... http://www.designation-systems.net/dusrm/m-10.html Cf., e.g., ... "A screaming comes across the sky." (GR, p. 3) "marriage" See ... http://waste.org/mail/?list=pynchon-l&month=0005&msg=45575 "an airborne MATS C-124" MATS = Military Air Transport Service http://www.vrc-50.org/MATShistory.htm The Douglas C-124 Globemaster II, also fondly called "Old Shakey," could carry more than 200 troops. It had clamshell-type loading doors, built-in double hydraulic ramps and an elevator under the aft fuselage. It could load tanks, field guns, bulldozers and trucks.... http://www.boeing.com/history/mdc/globemaster.htm And see as well, e.g., ... http://members.aol.com/SamBlu82/c124.html http://www.theaviationzone.com/factsheets/c124.asp http://www.globalaircraft.org/planes/c-124_globemaster_ii.pl http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/aircraft/c-124.htm http://www.mcchordairmuseum.org/REV%20B%20MAM%20COLLECTION%20C-124%20BORDER.htm "a mirror-image" Cf., e.g., ... "doppelganger" (MMV, p. 2) "as if it had passed through the surface of a mirror" (V., p. 47) __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From pynchonoid at yahoo.com Sun Aug 22 19:15:07 2004 From: pynchonoid at yahoo.com (pynchonoid) Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 17:15:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: TPPM "Togetherness": Pynchon Notes article In-Reply-To: <20040822222802.21799.qmail@web50703.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20040823001507.66739.qmail@web40708.mail.yahoo.com> see: Issue 46-49 "A Trove of New Works by Thomas Pynchon? Bomarc Service News Rediscovered" Adrian Wisnicki Wisnicki puts together an interesting picture of Pynchon at Boeing through analysis of Bomarc Service News articles. Quite a guy to have in the next cubicle, apparently. Worth the price of admission, not to mention the rest of the fine articles in this issue, http://www2.ham.muohio.edu/~krafftjm/contents.html ===== http://pynchonoid.org "everything connects" __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From birger_van at yahoo.com Sun Aug 22 21:29:44 2004 From: birger_van at yahoo.com (birger vanwesenbeeck) Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 19:29:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Beginnings Message-ID: <20040823022944.42157.qmail@web60006.mail.yahoo.com> Hello, I'm not sure if this e-mail went through earlier, but I was wondering if anybody knew of any other passages in Pynchon's fiction that deal explictly with "firstness" or beginning, such as for example the supposed first 1863 military encounter between Russia and America in the Peter Pinguid episode of Lot 49, Vineland being the first name the Vikings gave to the American continent, or William Slothrop being the "first" of Tyrone's ancestors, etc... Thanks! Birger --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Win 1 of 4,000 free domain names from Yahoo! Enter now. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ottosell at yahoo.de Mon Aug 23 03:47:12 2004 From: ottosell at yahoo.de (Otto) Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 10:47:12 +0200 Subject: MMV: Windigo References: <002601c48811$e156cc00$0101a8c0@i7t2q2> <1093210547.2018.30.camel@localhost> Message-ID: <004a01c488ed$ca610880$0101a8c0@i7t2q2> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul Mackin" To: Sent: Sunday, August 22, 2004 11:35 PM Subject: Re: MMV: Windigo > > Is Ghetta Goethe? > Paul, I had this suspicion too. A case of illegal cloning:-) > > King's analysis is complete baloney. > Well, no more than careless literary criticism. > Critics, Goethe said, are the cracked mirror in the grand ballroom of the creative spirit. No, I said, they were, rather, the extra baggage on the great cabriolet of conceptual progress. "Eckermann," Goethe said, "shut up." (Donald Barthelme, Conversations with Goethe, 40 Stories, Penguin 1989, p. 69) das Ott From ottosell at yahoo.de Mon Aug 23 04:36:10 2004 From: ottosell at yahoo.de (Otto) Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 11:36:10 +0200 Subject: MMV: Windigo References: Message-ID: <007001c488f4$a13f6260$0101a8c0@i7t2q2> ----- Original Message ----- From: "jbor" To: Sent: Sunday, August 22, 2004 10:28 PM Subject: Re: MMV: Windigo > > BTW I'm not at all clear about how it's possible to judge Siegel as an > "asshole" and a protagonist with whom no-one, including the author, > could possibly identify, What "positive" identification is possible? > flatly asserting that this is the only correct way to > read the story, Nobody did so, not even King. He's offering his reading of the story and is talking about what others critics had to say about it. This sounds like reasonable critical reading. There is no "right" solution, and we've had no chance yet to read the whole Allon White-essay. We've got just what King and Seed say about or quote from it: "Terms which under ordinary circumstances are mutually exclusive are forced into a kind of identity where the one becomes a version of the other. The form is rather like a metaphor in which we cannot see which is the vehicle and which is the tenor -- there is no referential set which controls the narrative . . ." (Seed, p. 19, referring to White, p. 58) > and then suddenly turn around Nobody did so. > and say how "clever" the > connection between the Windigo ritual and the Christian Eucharist is. > It's through Siegel that Pynchon is making that connection, of course. > > best Yes, of course the author is putting his ideas onto his characters. To see the obvious structural similarities between cannibalism and the Christian Eucharist, "body and blood, divine or otherwise," doesn't characterize Siegel as a nice guy, only as a clever one: "(...) the other, gentle part of him sang kaddishes for the dead and mourned over the Jesuit's happiness, realizing however that this kind of penance was as good as any other; it was just unfortunate that Irving Loon would be the only one partaking of any body and blood, divine or otherwise. It took no more than five seconds for the two sides to agree that there was really only one course to take." It is Siegel's Jesuit-side not Pynchon who's thinking that "this kind of penance was as good as any other (...)." http://ellensplace.net/dali4.jpg http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bild:LastSupper.jpg Otto From ottosell at yahoo.de Mon Aug 23 05:08:07 2004 From: ottosell at yahoo.de (Otto) Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 12:08:07 +0200 Subject: TPPM "Togetherness" References: <20040822222802.21799.qmail@web50703.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <021a01c488f9$17be53c0$0101a8c0@i7t2q2> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave Monroe" > Pynchon, Thomas H. [sic]. "Togetherness." > Aerospace Safety 16:12 (December 1960): 6-8. > > http://www.vheissu.org/bio/eng_togetherness.htm > > http://www.pynchon.pomona.edu/uncollected/together.html > > http://www.themodernword.com/pynchon/pynchon_essays_together.html > > > > > And can anyone shed a little light on this (below) for > us here? Kai? Kurt-Werner? Otto? Thanks ... > > http://www.schreibheft.de/docs/inhalt_61.html > I cannot find the mail but I have asked them at "Schreibheft" if it's a translation and they've said yes. I haven't bought "Schreibheft 61" because I couldn't see the necessity of reading this non-fiction text translated. Otto ------------------------------ Thomas Ruggles Pynchon, geb. 1937 in Glen Cove/Long Island, N.Y., lebt in New York. Schriftsteller. Buchveröffentlichungen in deutscher Übersetzung: V. (1968), Die Versteigerung von No. 49 (1973), Die Enden der Parabel (1981), Spätzünder (1985), Vineland (1993), Mason & Dixon (1999). Pynchon arbeitete 1960 bis 1962, während die Lenkwaffe Bormac entwickelt wurde, bei Boeing Airplane Co. in Seattle. "Togetherness", eine seiner "amtlichen" Schriften, erschien erstmals in Aerospace Safety, Heft 12 (1960), S. 6-8 (mit dem falschen Namenskürzel Thomas H. Pynchon). http://www.schreibheft.de/docs/pdfs/SH-61-Seite-217-222.pdf From ottosell at yahoo.de Mon Aug 23 05:15:07 2004 From: ottosell at yahoo.de (Otto) Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 12:15:07 +0200 Subject: TPPM "Togetherness": Pynchon Notes article References: <20040823001507.66739.qmail@web40708.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <022e01c488fa$125246c0$0101a8c0@i7t2q2> ----- Original Message ----- From: "pynchonoid" To: Sent: Monday, August 23, 2004 2:15 AM Subject: TPPM "Togetherness": Pynchon Notes article > see: > Issue 46-49 > "A Trove of New Works by Thomas Pynchon? Bomarc > Service News Rediscovered" > Adrian Wisnicki > > Wisnicki puts together an interesting picture of > Pynchon at Boeing through analysis of Bomarc Service > News articles. Quite a guy to have in the next > cubicle, apparently. Worth the price of admission, > not to mention the rest of the fine articles in this > issue, > http://www2.ham.muohio.edu/~krafftjm/contents.html > http://waste.org/mail/?list=pynchon-l&month=0407&msg=91662 Lot Sold. Hammer Price with Buyer's Premium: 10,200 USD From glenn_scheper at earthlink.net Mon Aug 23 09:14:59 2004 From: glenn_scheper at earthlink.net (Glenn Scheper) Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 07:14:59 -0700 (GMT-07:00) Subject: MMV: Context Message-ID: <19352775.1093270499325.JavaMail.root@waldorf.psp.pas.earthlink.net> >[Siegel]'s clearly set up as an asshole nobody identifies with. >It's almost as if Pynchon is describing himself and his own >chosen world and wishing to destroy it all out of a deep sense >of disatasfaction. > ... to identify with a mythological figure who feeds > on human flesh. Few of us are in danger of identifying > with either Loon or this mythic monster. >With its ostentatious and often gratuitous references to ... >the story suffers from precisely the same pretentiousness >that it satirises... >I don't think that a postmodern short story requires ... I find juvenile MMIV to be a most excellent and revelatory text, before Pynchon learned so well to hide the one core metaphor that he himself declared he would spin stories about, yet never reveal. I identify with all of Siegel, Loon, and Pynchon; Not Lepescu. As shared before, I had my psychosis after autofellatio. Years since, I have "recovered the author" in all mythology, gathering up my recognizable fellows--same ones as Pynchon. Let me recall for you the coming destruction, and its remedy: 31:17 Then my anger shall be kindled against them in that day, and I will forsake them, and I will hide my face from them, and they shall be devoured, and many evils and troubles shall befall them; so that they will say in that day, Are not these evils come upon us, because our God is not among us? 4:2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world. 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely. So Pynchon is not postmodern, in that he has recovered the icon, autofellatio, to ground all mythology and religion.\ This is not modernism, grounded in Cartesian doubt, but romantic (of poets) or transcendental (of philosophers). I have explained some symbols of MMIV before, but now you tell me siegel means sigil, mark? Well that's a lot like the Word of God (the autofellator, speaking himself). But if erection is name, and ejaculation is word, then a mark might be a name-less word, like a son fellated his father, having not the name. That evil father would be Lepescu, a pig hung from the key/cornerstone; replaced by spirit when Siegel ousts the father, fitting many christian metaphors of the "kingdom" of heaven, taken by force, weeds in the field among the good seed, etc. Yours truly, Glenn Scheper http://home.earthlink.net/~glenn_scheper/ glenn_scheper + at + earthlink.net Copyleft(!) Forward freely. From monropolitan at yahoo.com Mon Aug 23 09:37:24 2004 From: monropolitan at yahoo.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 07:37:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: MMV: Windigo In-Reply-To: <007001c488f4$a13f6260$0101a8c0@i7t2q2> Message-ID: <20040823143724.60404.qmail@web50703.mail.yahoo.com> Again, I've been wondering about Those Pynchonian Jesuits and if perhaps Pynchon's apparent lack of fondness for them might have something to with the, i don't know, lawyerly, evil's Advocate way in which they are apparently trained. Anyway, today will be slow-going for me, but it'll pick up soon ... --- Otto wrote: > It is Siegel's Jesuit-side not Pynchon who's > thinking that "this kind of penance was as good > as any other (...)." _______________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Win 1 of 4,000 free domain names from Yahoo! Enter now. http://promotions.yahoo.com/goldrush From monropolitan at yahoo.com Mon Aug 23 09:39:20 2004 From: monropolitan at yahoo.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 07:39:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: TPPM "Togetherness": Pynchon Notes article In-Reply-To: <20040823001507.66739.qmail@web40708.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20040823143920.52958.qmail@web50709.mail.yahoo.com> Think I mentioned this one in my initial post. I'll be citing from it extensively (it arrived after I moved, so ...). But I'll be a bit slow today, so ... --- pynchonoid wrote: > see: > Issue 46-49 > "A Trove of New Works by Thomas Pynchon? Bomarc > Service News Rediscovered" > Adrian Wisnicki _______________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Win 1 of 4,000 free domain names from Yahoo! Enter now. http://promotions.yahoo.com/goldrush From ghetta_outta at hotmail.com Mon Aug 23 10:22:54 2004 From: ghetta_outta at hotmail.com (Ghetta Life) Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 15:22:54 +0000 Subject: TPPM MMV The Gnostic Pynchon Message-ID: Thanks Dave (& Kai). This really is the point of the story, NOT that Siegel may or may not have been a detached psychopath with no feelings for his fellow man. That bit may or may not be a part of the story, but if it was the POINT of the story then I ask the question "Who cares?" Is Siegel's psyche really of any concern? OK, it wasn't nice of him to let all those people be slaughtered, but Pynchon wrote the story, and his concern was the SITUATION foremost. The characters are secondary excuses for the situation of the party and the events which happen there. It is completely a morality tale (a very obvious one) in which Pynchon condemns his first incarnation of the Whole Sick Crew, by means of a very contrived character and overtly laying on a twisted take on Conrad's HOD. As a story it is only interesting in the ways in which it is a percusor for all the themes listed in this very fine analysis. Ghetta >From: Dave Monroe > >From: lorentzen-nicklaus@[omitted] >.... the point in 'mortality and mercy' is that debby >and her crew themselves image the savage and amoral >forces that oppress irving and starve him of his >spiritual sustenance - thus, the gnostic reversal by >which the victim turns avenger and oppressor, denying >the humanity in whose name he had suffered. his mass >murder and cannibalism are a barbaric thrust from the >heart of nature's darkness against the artificial >darkness fashioned by a decadent civilization. as >'father confessor' (p. 212) to these neurotic >bacchanals, siegal grants this carnage the status of >ritual purification, compounding the religious ironies >already present with an admixture of christian heresy. >the 'still small jesuit voice' (p. 213) in his head - >a voice that he associates with machiavellian >Realpolitik - urges him to go ahead with the 'miracle' >that is now 'in his hands' by acquiescing in the >slaughter. through a grotesque - and essentially >gnostic - reversal of values, he will be bringing >'these parishioners ... a very tangible salvation. a >miracle involving a host, true, but like no holy >eucharist' (p. 212). _________________________________________________________________ Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 From gstacks at purdue.edu Mon Aug 23 10:25:17 2004 From: gstacks at purdue.edu (Geoff Stacks) Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 10:25:17 -0500 Subject: Sha? In-Reply-To: <20040823143920.52958.qmail@web50709.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200408231525.i7NFPAkB021996@usstp10.itcs.purdue.edu> Is the concept of Sha (in M&D) Pynchon's invention? From scuffling at hotmail.com Mon Aug 23 10:39:44 2004 From: scuffling at hotmail.com (Ian Scuffling) Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 11:39:44 -0400 Subject: TPPM MMV The Gnostic Pynchon In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Umm, has anyone ever seen "El Ángel Exterminador?" ☺ Could Buñuel have been influenced by Pynchon's story? Unlikely. Common influence, perhaps? Henry M From ghetta_outta at hotmail.com Mon Aug 23 10:43:44 2004 From: ghetta_outta at hotmail.com (Ghetta Life) Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 15:43:44 +0000 Subject: MMV: Windigo Message-ID: >From: pynchonoid > >--- jbor wrote: > > By contrast, the story does not state or indicate or imply that Loon, or >his actions or his culture -- which are all one and the same thing in the >context of the narrative -- suffer from a "moral failure". > >Pynchon's story closes with the clear implication that Loon is committing >mass murder, an act which qualifies, just about everywhere (except, >perhaps, in the mind of the odd Pynchon reader), as a moral failure. The whole point of this little tale is a judgement on the "moral failure" of the Whole Sick Crew (which is just a stand-in for modern society). Loon is only the "Avenging Angel" and not really a character with enough substance to attribute any morals at all. But then you don't really care about the content of the story. You just want to bicker with Robert. But Robert's comment above is right on the money. Ghetta _________________________________________________________________ Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From ghetta_outta at hotmail.com Mon Aug 23 11:03:42 2004 From: ghetta_outta at hotmail.com (Ghetta Life) Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 16:03:42 +0000 Subject: The Lessons to Be Learned From Scale-Model Humans Message-ID: http://www.nytimes.com/2004/08/22/arts/design/22GOLD.html THE dolls are back in force, all curls and furbelows, and the automata are poised to perform. At the Shelburne Museum here, they came out in July after two years in conservation: 400 of the museum's 850 antique dolls from around 1760 to 1930, along with 31 automata made in Paris in the last half of the 19th century, from monkeys that play drums to preachers that preach. _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail From mittelwerk at hotmail.com Mon Aug 23 11:02:31 2004 From: mittelwerk at hotmail.com (Joel Katz) Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 12:02:31 -0400 Subject: man, that glenn scheper guy is weird! Message-ID: well, i prefer standard as opposed to auto--but holy smoke! i don't know what the fuck he's talking about! somebody sic ashcroft on that guy! hide the trazodone! "there are probably different kinds of animals. still, all these cries are alike; not that their common characteristic is easy to decide, but rather their common lack of characteristics: they do not seem to be cries of fright, or pain, or intimidation, or even love. they sound like mechanical cries, uttered without perceptible motive, expressing nothing, indicating only the existence, the position, and the respective movements of each animal . . .". _________________________________________________________________ Don�t just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search! http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/ From monropolitan at yahoo.com Mon Aug 23 11:43:21 2004 From: monropolitan at yahoo.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 09:43:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Sha? In-Reply-To: <200408231525.i7NFPAkB021996@usstp10.itcs.purdue.edu> Message-ID: <20040823164321.23327.qmail@web50708.mail.yahoo.com> "It acts as a Conduit for what we call Sha, or, as they say in Spanish California, Bad Energy.�- Imagine a Wind, a truly ill wind, bringing failure, poverty, disgrace, betrayal,-� every kind of bad luck there is,�- all blowing through, night and day, with many times the force of the worst storm you were ever in." (M&D, p. 542) Sha 542; aka "Bad Energy"; 545; 547; 573; 601; 615; 649; 683; 692 http://www.hyperarts.com/pynchon/mason-dixon/alpha/s.html Sha Chi Sha Chi, or "killing Chi" as it is sometimes known, is a different from Sheng Chi and Si Chi. It is harmful energy, the Chi that is possessed when people are angry or when a place has a threatening or peculiar feel to it. Sha Chi originates from negative surroundings both above and below ground and, depending upon its origin, can cause various detrimental effects. Sha Chi from below the ground causes sickness and saps energy and so a person may feel tired and apprehensive for no obvious reason. Sha Chi emanating from above ground causes nervous complaints and illnesses. It may result in troubles in people's personal life such as a marriage breakdown and financial concerns, whether personal or relating to business. Sha Chi can affect houses in a number of ways, inside or outside, we don't mention all the ways at this site, but here are some examples. It is well known that Sha Chi will affect a house detrimentally if the house is sited at a T-junction in the road ... or if a road or a river runs straightly from one of the doors or windows. Similarly, a house surrounded by other structures (bridges, roads) will receive harmful energy as well, since the structures box it in. Also, there are some other situations will create Sha Chi: Pointed objects aligned with the door or a window Being opposite a ruined building A noisy neighborhood or a noisy building such as a fire station or a bar. Overhead cables or wires obstructing the view Proximity to a graveyard http://www.fengshuiprophet.com/sha_chi.htm Sheng Qi and Sha Qi There are two types of Qi, the good and the bad. The good type is called Sheng Qi while the bad type is called Sha Qi. The word Sheng means vital or life. The word Sha means evil or killing. These two types of qi can sometimes be felt by our senses, but we may be unaware of their existence some other times. Beautiful objects are considered Sheng Qi. They are pleasant to our eyes and we feel comfortable with beautiful objects at our sight. Although what is beautiful to one person may not be so to another, we cannot disregard general consensus of opinion. A house built in a beautiful environment is then said to be bathing in good Feng Shui because it is surrounded by sheng qi. If the interior of a house is clean and tidy, well ventilated and has good lighting, then the house is also filled with sheng qi. People living in such a house will feel calm and peaceful and life is enjoyable to them. They will have more energy to work and play. They are enjoying good Feng Shui. On the other hand, ugly objects are considered Sha Qi. They are unpleasant to our eyes and we feel uncomfortable with their presence. A house built near a dumpsite with flies and mosquitoes, with bad odor polluting the air, is suffering from bad Feng Shui. People living there will easily get sick and feel unhappy. They will find life horrible. Chinese people consider the Perfect Trinity to be formed by Truth, Kindness and Beauty. Ancient people argued in search of truth. They were kind to each other with a common goal of creating a beautiful world. Today, there are Feng Shui wars in a lot of places. This is the most ignorant action. Using ugly objects to harm competitors is creating a source of sha qi at home. It not only hurts the competitor but the person himself and other innocent neighbors. Feng Shui practitioners who employ such technique to make money should be reprimanded. Some people teach others to use mirrors to handle sha qi. They are equating qi to light, which is not true. If light is not qi then what does the mirror do? Well, they say that there are three kinds of mirrors - the plane mirror, the convex mirror and the concave mirror each having a special function: [1] A plane mirror can reflect sha qi back to the source. [2] A concave mirror can concentrate the sha qi at one point. [3] A convex mirror can disperse sha qi. What really happens is that a plane mirror will form an image at the back of the mirror. If there is a source of sha qi outside your house, using a plane mirror at your front door will bring it virtually into your house. If you use a concave or convex mirror you are also bringing the sha qi in a focussed way into or near your house. Fortunately, it is only the image of the source of sha qi that is involved, not the sha qi itself. Since light contributes only a part of the sha qi, the actual harm done is not great. We can be sure that it does not work even if no harm is done. http://fsrc.topcities.com/fengshui3.html The archives were surprisingly quiet on this ... http://waste.org/mail/?list=pynchon-l Again, basic research never hurts ... --- Geoff Stacks wrote: > Is the concept of Sha (in M&D) Pynchon's invention? And how are things in lovely West Lafayette? All I recall is the sulfurous tapwater, and the 10% off sale at the local adult bookstore when it was being picketed by the local Moral Majority ... __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From paul.mackin at verizon.net Mon Aug 23 12:09:56 2004 From: paul.mackin at verizon.net (Paul Mackin) Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 13:09:56 -0400 Subject: MMV: Windigo In-Reply-To: <20040823143724.60404.qmail@web50703.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20040823143724.60404.qmail@web50703.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1093280996.1844.61.camel@localhost> On Mon, 2004-08-23 at 10:37, Dave Monroe wrote: > Again, I've been wondering about Those Pynchonian > Jesuits and if perhaps Pynchon's apparent lack of > fondness for them might have something to with the, i > don't know, lawyerly, evil's Advocate way in which > they are apparently trained. Anyway, today will be > slow-going for me, but it'll pick up soon ... > > --- Otto wrote: > > > It is Siegel's Jesuit-side not Pynchon who's > > thinking that "this kind of penance was as good > > as any other (...)." > I'm having a little trouble with the way the Jesuit references in the story are being interpreted. It's true that "Jesuit" has the well-recoginzed meaning of sophistic, deceptive, tricky. However in M&M in V the term is introduced, clearly it seem to me, with reference to Stephen Dedalus, whom Buck Mulligan calls "you fearful Jesuit." Mullligan does not mean Stephen is dishonest. Rather, S is TOO honest. M is chiding his friend for refusing to kneel down at S's mother's deathbed and pray with her. S refuses because he himself does not believe. M, who has a completely materialistic view of death, thinks S's reticence is a frivolius and heartless waste. He attributes S's attitude to the fact that S has had the Jesuit Strain injected into him, except that in Stephen's case it was injected upside down. (both men were educated in the Catholic religion by Jesuits I think) In other words in M's view S is still a theological person. Not quite a materialist like M. I think there are a number of indications in M&M in V that Siegel is viewed by Grossman and himself as essentially a theological person. A priest of sorts. In an odd way of course. The denouement of the story is in fact a religious event. Cleanth Siegel S.J. A crazy kind of Jesuit maybe. Religion turned up side down. Like Stephen's Jesuit strain left him. But religious nevertheless. Anyway we could think about it. From scuffling at hotmail.com Mon Aug 23 15:10:20 2004 From: scuffling at hotmail.com (Ian Scuffling) Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 16:10:20 -0400 Subject: NP: Boston Message-ID: I'll be in Boston September 2 and 3. Drinks, anyone? Any hotel, restaurant, bar recommendations? Thanks. Henry M From mittelwerk at hotmail.com Mon Aug 23 16:16:00 2004 From: mittelwerk at hotmail.com (Joel Katz) Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 17:16:00 -0400 Subject: NP: Boston Message-ID: the north station food court is good for copping feels. or, at 3a.m., more. much more. >From: "Ian Scuffling" >To: "Pynchon List" >Subject: NP: Boston >Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 16:10:20 -0400 > >I'll be in Boston September 2 and 3. Drinks, anyone? >Any hotel, restaurant, bar recommendations? > >Thanks. > >Henry M > _________________________________________________________________ Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE! hthttp://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/ From jbor at bigpond.com Mon Aug 23 17:18:35 2004 From: jbor at bigpond.com (jbor) Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 08:18:35 +1000 Subject: MMV: Windigo In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Summing up, it appears the only way for some readers to make the case for 'MMV' as a "good" story is to transform Siegel into a "monster" and a "psychopath", promote Grossman as some concealed moral yardstick within the text, judge a non-Western culture as a "moral failure", and speculate that Pynchon omitted it and any mention of it from _Slow Learner_ because readers and critics didn't, and don't, get it, as Vincent King tries to do in his essay. I don't buy any of it. While there are some nice turns of phrase and provocative and interesting ideas, and moments of glib humour, I can certainly understand why Pynchon chose to discard it when he was putting together his collection of early stories. best From monropolitan at yahoo.com Mon Aug 23 17:29:59 2004 From: monropolitan at yahoo.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 15:29:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: MMV: Windigo In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040823222959.27049.qmail@web50703.mail.yahoo.com> Again, this is beside the point. It's Pynchon, and if that's yr thing (as I prseume it is for many/most/all here), it's worth more than a cursory glance/dismissal. If there's one thing anybody ought to have learned in yr lit'rachure departments over the past decade or two, it's that it's ALL fair game, and that yr text (whatever that might be) need not be "good" to be interesting, of interest. For something to be said about it beyond the ol' thumbs up and/or down. Aagin, it's Pynchon, deal with it ... --- jbor wrote: > Summing up, it appears the only way for some readers > to make the case for 'MMV' as a "good" story ... _______________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Win 1 of 4,000 free domain names from Yahoo! Enter now. http://promotions.yahoo.com/goldrush From vze422fs at verizon.net Mon Aug 23 19:29:41 2004 From: vze422fs at verizon.net (joeallonby) Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 20:29:41 -0400 Subject: NP: Boston In-Reply-To: Message-ID: on 8/23/04 5:16 PM, Joel Katz at mittelwerk at hotmail.com wrote: > the north station food court is good for copping feels. or, at 3a.m., more. > much more. > I wasn't aware that it was open that late. I'll have to check it out. From tyronemullet at hotmail.com Mon Aug 23 21:24:53 2004 From: tyronemullet at hotmail.com (Steve Maas) Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 19:24:53 -0700 Subject: Siegel Message-ID: A small point, but I've noticed repeatedly in the discussion of MMV the statement or implication that J. Siegel was, or claimed to have been , P.'s college roommate. I am unaware of any example where Siegel so claimed. Steve Maas _________________________________________________________________ Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE! http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/ From keithsz at sbcglobal.net Mon Aug 23 23:02:01 2004 From: keithsz at sbcglobal.net (Keith McMullen) Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 21:02:01 -0700 Subject: Siegel, Pynchon's College Neighbor In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <59FAE67A-F582-11D8-A959-000A95BDCA92@sbcglobal.net> From Siegel's Playboy article: "Everyone has his own fantasy of success. I once had no greater hope than to publish a learned paper on 17th Century English songs in The Proceedings of the Modern Language Association. Somewhere in the blank fog of time there is a scholar writing a learned paper on Thomas Pynchon. To him I offer this footnote: In Mortality and Mercy in Vienna, Pynchon's first published short story, the protagonist is one Cleanth Siegel. My second wife, the former Virginia Christine Jolly of San Marino, California, tells me that the character represents me. I have noticed the coincidence of name but do not recognize myself. Possibly it is a me I have never been able to examine very well, the back of my neck, or the dream of Gabriel Garcia Marquez, whose essential quality is that it cannot be remembered." "Be that as it may, I did attend Cornell in 1954. The boy in the next room was Thomas Ruggles Pynchon, Jr. If there are any correspondences to be found in that or anything else that follows, I leave them to Chrissie and the scholars." From keithsz at sbcglobal.net Mon Aug 23 23:24:48 2004 From: keithsz at sbcglobal.net (Keith McMullen) Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 21:24:48 -0700 Subject: MMV: Windigo In-Reply-To: <20040823222959.27049.qmail@web50703.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20040823222959.27049.qmail@web50703.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <88DEAB46-F585-11D8-9BEB-000A95BDCA92@sbcglobal.net> >>> Aagin, it's Pynchon, deal with it ... <<< So what's the problem with jbor dealing with it by having a negative reaction to it? It is a really shitty story. From jbor at bigpond.com Tue Aug 24 04:33:31 2004 From: jbor at bigpond.com (jbor) Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 19:33:31 +1000 Subject: MMV: Siegel's "house divided" In-Reply-To: <1093280996.1844.61.camel@localhost> Message-ID: Yes, the references in the story to Siegel's "still small Jesuit voice" and the ongoing account of how it has manifested over the years in opposition to his "gentle" Jewish side haven't been addressed in a coherent way at all. I agree that it's Siegel's Roman Catholic side which makes him honest and able to see the egocentric superficiality of his "parishioners" for just what it is. It's this "Jesuit ... poltergeist" which is the practical part of his personality that allows him to function in society (it would "call him back to the real country where there were drinks to be mixed and *bon mots* to be tossed out carelessly and maybe a drunk or two to take care of"), and it's the side of his personality which motivates him to leave the partygoers to their fate at story's end (though his Jewish side also agrees very quickly that this course of action is the correct one). It's also the RC side of his personality which allows him to recognise that the partygoers only want from him "absolution or penance, but no practical advice" and, perversely perhaps, that's exactly what he's giving to them by letting Irving Loon run amok. Ironically, I think it's his Jewish side which urges him to feel "sympathy" for them and which has actually caused him to be in the situation in the first place, allowing himself to be manipulated into taking over from Lupescu and then agreeing to serve as a father-confessor to all the nitwits at the party (and throughout his life -- this part of his personality leads all the way back to the "timid spindleshanked boy" in Jewish mourning garb he once was). The two conflicting sides of Siegel's personality are flagged early on: in his shifting attitude towards his job in "the Commission"; in the way he has "funky periods" (his Jewish side) or feels "bright-eyed and bushy-tailed" (his Jesuit side); and in the way he switches between "hysteria" (Jewish) and "nonchalance" (Jesuit). I'm not quite sure that I understand correctly what it is that he has "inherited from his mother" -- I think it's actually the repression or rejection of *both* his Jewish and Catholic instincts that she is the root cause of -- but it is this inheritance from her which is responsible for all his practical jokes and rebellious and anarchic behaviour in the army and at college. On the other hand, it could be that Pynchon isn't referring to his mother's apostasy but to her prior Catholicism as the "inheritance" that has inspired the "Jesuit voice" inside Siegel and which counters his stereotypical Jewish "guilt" and "ineffective[ness]". That would make more sense, but it's a bit ambiguous. At the end of the story Siegel again reflects on the contest between the Jesuit and Jewish sides of his personality respectively, how "the nimble little Machiavel inside him would start to throw things at the mensch who had just cast off adolescence and who still sat perpetual shivah for people like Debby Considine and Lucy and himself and all the other dead" (it's interesting that Siegel is self-conscious and self-critical enough to number himself amongst "all the other dead" here). Anyway, I agree that the Catholic/Jewish tension is a crucial aspect of the story and well worth discussing, and I'm pretty much in agreement with Ghetta's take. I'm sure Terrance has some good insights as well. best on 24/8/04 3:09 AM, Paul Mackin at paul.mackin at verizon.net wrote: > I'm having a little trouble with the way the Jesuit references in the > story are being interpreted. It's true that "Jesuit" has the > well-recoginzed meaning of sophistic, deceptive, tricky. However in M&M > in V the term is introduced, clearly it seem to me, with reference to > Stephen Dedalus, whom Buck Mulligan calls "you fearful Jesuit." > Mullligan does not mean Stephen is dishonest. Rather, S is TOO honest. M > is chiding his friend for refusing to kneel down at S's mother's > deathbed and pray with her. S refuses because he himself does not > believe. M, who has a completely materialistic view of death, thinks S's > reticence is a frivolius and heartless waste. He attributes S's attitude > to the fact that S has had the Jesuit Strain injected into him, except > that in Stephen's case it was injected upside down. (both men were > educated in the Catholic religion by Jesuits I think) In other words in > M's view S is still a theological person. Not quite a materialist like > M. > > I think there are a number of indications in M&M in V that Siegel is > viewed by Grossman and himself as essentially a theological person. A > priest of sorts. In an odd way of course. > > The denouement of the story is in fact a religious event. Cleanth Siegel > S.J. A crazy kind of Jesuit maybe. Religion turned up side down. Like > Stephen's Jesuit strain left him. But religious nevertheless. > > Anyway we could think about it. > > From ottosell at yahoo.de Tue Aug 24 07:25:40 2004 From: ottosell at yahoo.de (Otto) Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 14:25:40 +0200 Subject: MMV: Windigo References: Message-ID: <002801c489d5$7964b920$0101a8c0@i7t2q2> ----- Original Message ----- From: "jbor" To: Sent: Tuesday, August 24, 2004 12:18 AM Subject: Re: MMV: Windigo > judge a non-Western culture as a "moral failure" Nobody did that, King didn't do it and nobody on this list. Nobody has said a word that the Ojibwa-culture is in any way minor to what you call Western culture. > > I don't buy any of it. While there are some nice turns of phrase and > provocative and interesting ideas, and moments of glib humour, I can > certainly understand why Pynchon chose to discard it when he was putting > together his collection of early stories. Oh, best, than you can surely explain why "The Small Rain" (for example) is so much better that it had to be in that collection. That Pynchon chose those stories is another speculation. I don't buy your still unproven assertion that Pynchon wrote that story out of some juvenile lust for disaster. Otto From ottosell at yahoo.de Tue Aug 24 07:45:43 2004 From: ottosell at yahoo.de (Otto) Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 14:45:43 +0200 Subject: MMV: Windigo References: <20040823222959.27049.qmail@web50703.mail.yahoo.com> <88DEAB46-F585-11D8-9BEB-000A95BDCA92@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <004e01c489d8$4652f6c0$0101a8c0@i7t2q2> There is no problem concerning the story. It is a discussion with different opinions. My problem is Rob's unbearable arrogance: "it's a brain-numbingly perverse argument" Nobody has said something similar about any of his opinions, but he's the one who complains about "constant sniping" but is the only sniper himself. ---------------------- Keith, if it's a shitty story then you should invest some time on telling us why according to your opinion. Nobody did up to now. I'm not gonna buy that "shitty"-argument (which has been put upon his essays and the "1984"-forword too to "to stifle discussion") without good reasons for this opinion anymore. Otto ----- Original Message ----- From: "Keith McMullen" To: "Pynchon Shitlist" Sent: Tuesday, August 24, 2004 6:24 AM Subject: Re: MMV: Windigo > >>> Aagin, it's Pynchon, deal with it ... <<< > > So what's the problem with jbor dealing with it by having a negative > reaction to it? It is a really shitty story. > From ghetta_outta at hotmail.com Tue Aug 24 08:53:09 2004 From: ghetta_outta at hotmail.com (Ghetta Life) Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 13:53:09 +0000 Subject: MMV: Windigo Message-ID: >From: "Otto" > >Keith, if it's a shitty story then you should invest some time on telling >us why according to your opinion. Nobody did up to now. Nobody? I think quite a few people here have expressed reasons why they dislike MMV. >I'm not gonna buy that "shitty"-argument (which has been put upon his >essays and the "1984"-forword too to "to stifle discussion") without good >reasons for this opinion anymore. Knowing Keith's manner, it seems obvious that he used that adjective precisely because it became the operative word used against the 1984 intro. In other words, he's having a bit of fun with those who might be a bit sensitive to the word "shitty." Ghetta _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus From ghetta_outta at hotmail.com Tue Aug 24 08:57:08 2004 From: ghetta_outta at hotmail.com (Ghetta Life) Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 13:57:08 +0000 Subject: MMV: Windigo Message-ID: >From: Keith McMullen > > >>> Aagin, it's Pynchon, deal with it ... <<< > >So what's the problem with jbor dealing with it by having a negative >reaction to it? Bingo! Just because it is written by Pynchon doesn't mean we have to find it of great value. As many have said, it has its interesting aspects in light of Pynchon's later works, by as a piece unto itself it should be subject to any criticism that sticks to its shitty self. Ghetta _________________________________________________________________ Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 From bekah0176 at sbcglobal.net Tue Aug 24 08:57:38 2004 From: bekah0176 at sbcglobal.net (Bekah) Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 06:57:38 -0700 Subject: Happy Birthday, Jorge Luis Borges In-Reply-To: <004e01c489d8$4652f6c0$0101a8c0@i7t2q2> References: <20040823222959.27049.qmail@web50703.mail.yahoo.com> <88DEAB46-F585-11D8-9BEB-000A95BDCA92@sbcglobal.net> <004e01c489d8$4652f6c0$0101a8c0@i7t2q2> Message-ID: Happy Birthday, Jorge Luis Borges, 1899 - 1986 Bekah -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From keithsz at sbcglobal.net Tue Aug 24 09:16:10 2004 From: keithsz at sbcglobal.net (Keith McMullen) Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 07:16:10 -0700 Subject: Happy Birthday, Jorge Luis Borges In-Reply-To: References: <20040823222959.27049.qmail@web50703.mail.yahoo.com> <88DEAB46-F585-11D8-9BEB-000A95BDCA92@sbcglobal.net> <004e01c489d8$4652f6c0$0101a8c0@i7t2q2> Message-ID: <261F070E-F5D8-11D8-8D8E-000A95BDCA92@sbcglobal.net> Also known as 'Shitty Short Story Day' in many countries. From megley1 at chartermi.net Tue Aug 24 09:42:32 2004 From: megley1 at chartermi.net (Meg Larson) Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 10:42:32 -0400 Subject: Happy Birthday, Jorge Luis Borges References: <20040823222959.27049.qmail@web50703.mail.yahoo.com> <88DEAB46-F585-11D8-9BEB-000A95BDCA92@sbcglobal.net> <004e01c489d8$4652f6c0$0101a8c0@i7t2q2> <261F070E-F5D8-11D8-8D8E-000A95BDCA92@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <00d901c489e8$a4d92a10$0633bc42@mycomputer> Now I remember why I was on this list in the first place! M. Glad to see yer still around, Keith. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Keith McMullen" To: "Pynchon Shitlist" Sent: Tuesday, August 24, 2004 10:16 AM Subject: Re: Happy Birthday, Jorge Luis Borges > Also known as 'Shitty Short Story Day' in many countries. > > From mark.brawner at gmail.com Tue Aug 24 09:57:46 2004 From: mark.brawner at gmail.com (Mark Brawner) Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 07:57:46 -0700 Subject: Happy Birthday, Jorge Luis Borges In-Reply-To: <261F070E-F5D8-11D8-8D8E-000A95BDCA92@sbcglobal.net> References: <20040823222959.27049.qmail@web50703.mail.yahoo.com> <88DEAB46-F585-11D8-9BEB-000A95BDCA92@sbcglobal.net> <004e01c489d8$4652f6c0$0101a8c0@i7t2q2> <261F070E-F5D8-11D8-8D8E-000A95BDCA92@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <660d86250408240757784f15ba@mail.gmail.com> Hitchens has a decent review of the new Borges bio in the latest Atlantic, FWIW. ["He did not want to compose another Don Quixote--which would be easy--but *the Don Quixote*."], Mark On Tue, 24 Aug 2004 07:16:10 -0700, Keith McMullen wrote: > Also known as 'Shitty Short Story Day' in many countries. From megley1 at chartermi.net Tue Aug 24 10:04:22 2004 From: megley1 at chartermi.net (Meg Larson) Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 11:04:22 -0400 Subject: MMV As Shit References: Message-ID: <00ff01c489eb$a7264700$0633bc42@mycomputer> While it has been a while since I read MMV, and reupped on the List in the middle of what seems to be a group read, I can't comment specifically but will say that I wasn't fond of the story, but could see glimpses of Pynch's talent taking shape. E-everyone has to start somewhere. M. > > Bingo! Just because it is written by Pynchon doesn't mean we have to find > it of great value. As many have said, it has its interesting aspects in > light of Pynchon's later works, by as a piece unto itself it should be > subject to any criticism that sticks to its shitty self. > > Ghetta > > _________________________________________________________________ > Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online > http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 > > From keithsz at sbcglobal.net Tue Aug 24 10:14:02 2004 From: keithsz at sbcglobal.net (Keith McMullen) Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 08:14:02 -0700 Subject: Happy Birthday, Jorge Luis Borges In-Reply-To: <00d901c489e8$a4d92a10$0633bc42@mycomputer> References: <20040823222959.27049.qmail@web50703.mail.yahoo.com> <88DEAB46-F585-11D8-9BEB-000A95BDCA92@sbcglobal.net> <004e01c489d8$4652f6c0$0101a8c0@i7t2q2> <261F070E-F5D8-11D8-8D8E-000A95BDCA92@sbcglobal.net> <00d901c489e8$a4d92a10$0633bc42@mycomputer> Message-ID: <3B684632-F5E0-11D8-8D8E-000A95BDCA92@sbcglobal.net> >>>Now I remember why I was on this list in the first place!<<< Nice to see old-timers with a sense of humor re-visiting. Frivolity is hard to come by lately. From ghetta_outta at hotmail.com Tue Aug 24 10:40:27 2004 From: ghetta_outta at hotmail.com (Ghetta Life) Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 15:40:27 +0000 Subject: Happy Birthday, Jorge Luis Borges Message-ID: > >Frivolity is hard to come by lately. > Blame it on Bush. _________________________________________________________________ Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 From scuffling at hotmail.com Tue Aug 24 11:54:53 2004 From: scuffling at hotmail.com (Ian Scuffling) Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 12:54:53 -0400 Subject: Frivolity (was: Happy Birthday, Jorge Luis Borges) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: "Blame it on Bush" may be facile, but it's hard to be frivolous when "you're either for us of against us." Henry M -----Original Message----- From: owner-pynchon-l at waste.org [mailto:owner-pynchon-l at waste.org] On Behalf Of Ghetta Life Sent: Tuesday, August 24, 2004 11:40 AM > >Frivolity is hard to come by lately. > Blame it on Bush. From pynchonoid at yahoo.com Tue Aug 24 11:57:02 2004 From: pynchonoid at yahoo.com (pynchonoid) Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 09:57:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Happy Birthday, Jorge Luis Borges In-Reply-To: <3B684632-F5E0-11D8-8D8E-000A95BDCA92@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <20040824165702.5762.qmail@web40706.mail.yahoo.com> > > Frivolity is hard to come by lately. > You're not looking in the right places, or maybe it's the shit-encrusted spectacles you're wearing. Terry Gross is interviewing William Shatner about his cover of "Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds" -- after playing almost too much of the recording -- on the radio as I type this. Perhaps you can find it in the archives at http://freshair.npr.org/. ===== http://pynchonoid.org "everything connects" __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From pynchonoid at yahoo.com Tue Aug 24 12:23:46 2004 From: pynchonoid at yahoo.com (pynchonoid) Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 10:23:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: The Seven Deadly Harveys Message-ID: <20040824172346.74479.qmail@web40701.mail.yahoo.com> http://progressiveruin.com/archives/2004_08_22_archive.html#109323894185584669 ===== http://pynchonoid.org "everything connects" __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail is new and improved - Check it out! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From pynchonoid at yahoo.com Tue Aug 24 13:42:55 2004 From: pynchonoid at yahoo.com (pynchonoid) Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 11:42:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Blood Meridian, Mike Davis... Message-ID: <20040824184255.74747.qmail@web40705.mail.yahoo.com> A novel frequently mentioned here, _Blood Meridian_ and a writer sometimes mentioned here, Mike Davis, connect: http://hnn.us/articles/1816.html ===== http://pynchonoid.org "everything connects" __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From monropolitan at yahoo.com Tue Aug 24 15:11:20 2004 From: monropolitan at yahoo.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 13:11:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: MMV: Windigo In-Reply-To: <004e01c489d8$4652f6c0$0101a8c0@i7t2q2> Message-ID: <20040824201120.91425.qmail@web50704.mail.yahoo.com> Yeah, my problem is not only that it's a waste of time and/or, here, diversionary tactic to bicker over "good" and "bad," we're here 'cos it's Pynchon, "good" OR "bad," but, in Robert's case, I see no reason to badmouth King, much less for an argument he didn't make, i.e., that MMV is a "good" story. What it is, at least for some of us, and certainly for Eddins, King, with all the critics whose readings thereof he critiques, et al., is an interesting one. Maybe Robt. writes the equation "interesting" = "good," but that's in his case to ignore a couple/three decades at LEAST of floweringly fruitful lit'rary critrical discourse equivocating the erstwhile equation "good" = "interesting" = "Capital-L Lit'rachure." Okay, back to "Togetherness" ... --- Otto wrote: > > My problem is Rob's unbearable arrogance: "it's a > brain-numbingly perverse argument" > > Nobody has said something similar about any of his > opinions ... Up to an including me, though his (well-enough-written, albeit pedantic) prose ... > but he's the one who complains about "constant > sniping" but is the only sniper himself. Not the only one, I mean, recall who yr responsding to as well, and I've certainly been known to snap on the scope myself once in a while, but, at least I don't get all schoolmarmy over it. Okay, NOW back to ... __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail is new and improved - Check it out! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From monropolitan at yahoo.com Tue Aug 24 15:15:07 2004 From: monropolitan at yahoo.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 13:15:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: MMV: Siegel's "house divided" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040824201507.49533.qmail@web50707.mail.yahoo.com> But, again, I'd be cautious about equating "Roman Catholic" with "Jesuit." There are Suspicions ... --- jbor wrote: > Yes, the references in the story to Siegel's "still > small Jesuit voice" and the ongoing account of how > it has manifested over the years in opposition to > his "gentle" Jewish side haven't been addressed in > a coherent way at all. I agree that it's Siegel's > Roman Catholic side which makes him honest ... _______________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Win 1 of 4,000 free domain names from Yahoo! Enter now. http://promotions.yahoo.com/goldrush From monropolitan at yahoo.com Tue Aug 24 15:36:30 2004 From: monropolitan at yahoo.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 13:36:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: man, that glenn scheper guy is weird! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040824203630.28106.qmail@web50702.mail.yahoo.com> Hey, man, step off The Scherpster. He's always interesting, that's for sure. AND industrious. I mean, let's face it, how many of you would have the time/energy to post at length the way Glenn does given a little extra flexibility and the, er, "talent" to bridge a certain gap of yr own? Okay, then ... --- Joel Katz wrote: > well, i prefer standard as opposed to auto--but > holy smoke! i don't know what the fuck he's > talking about! somebody sic ashcroft on that guy! > hide the trazodone! In the meantime, anyone either inviting Ashcroft tothe party OR not sharing their pharmaceuticals is just plain not in the spirit of things here ... __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail � Now with 25x more storage than before! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From jbor at bigpond.com Tue Aug 24 16:44:11 2004 From: jbor at bigpond.com (jbor) Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 07:44:11 +1000 Subject: MMV: Context In-Reply-To: Message-ID: on 24/8/04 11:53 PM, Ghetta Life wrote: > Nobody? I think quite a few people here have expressed reasons why they > dislike MMV. Actually, I haven't expressed a personal opinion one way or the other about the story, and that type of discussion doesn't interest me at all. In my opinion probably the most intriguing and noteworthy thing about 'MMV' is the fact that Pynchon chose to leave it out of _Slow Learner_ -- not even mention it, in fact -- and this is an issue which most critics and readers do attempt to deal with right up front in considering the work. I also believe it's well worth coming at it from that angle, rather than trying to gloss over that fact, and trying to pinpoint what it is about the story that *Pynchon* has since come to reject or regret. best From pynchonoid at yahoo.com Tue Aug 24 17:16:55 2004 From: pynchonoid at yahoo.com (pynchonoid) Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 15:16:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: the A4s of Kapustin Yar Message-ID: <20040824221655.96515.qmail@web40710.mail.yahoo.com> While googling for the piano music of Nikolai Kapustin, found 11 post-wwII A4 launchings at Kapustin Yar http://www.russianspaceweb.com/kapyar_a4.html with photos plus a brief history. ===== http://pynchonoid.org "everything connects" _______________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Win 1 of 4,000 free domain names from Yahoo! Enter now. http://promotions.yahoo.com/goldrush From pynchonoid at yahoo.com Tue Aug 24 17:40:30 2004 From: pynchonoid at yahoo.com (pynchonoid) Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 15:40:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: MMV: Context In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040824224030.26950.qmail@web40701.mail.yahoo.com> --- jbor wrote: >probably the most intriguing and noteworthy > thing about 'MMV' is the > fact that Pynchon chose to leave it out of _Slow > Learner_ -- not even > mention it, in fact -- and this is an issue which > most critics and readers > do attempt to deal with right up front in > considering the work. Other than projecting your own fantasies about what might have led Pynchon to this choice, how do you "deal with" it? That would be "most critics and readers" outside of Pynchon-l, I'm guessing, seeing as how the discussion here of MMV begins with - and continues to focus on - the fact that the story doesn't appear in Slow Learner. On this point, you're preaching to the wrong crowd and might better direct your comments to those critics and readers who haven't dealt with this fact in their discussions of MMV. ===== http://pynchonoid.org "everything connects" _______________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Win 1 of 4,000 free domain names from Yahoo! Enter now. http://promotions.yahoo.com/goldrush From pynchonoid at yahoo.com Tue Aug 24 17:45:00 2004 From: pynchonoid at yahoo.com (pynchonoid) Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 15:45:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: correction Re: MMV: Context Message-ID: <20040824224500.65453.qmail@web40704.mail.yahoo.com> > --- jbor wrote: > >probably the most intriguing and noteworthy > > thing about 'MMV' is the > > fact that Pynchon chose to leave it out of _Slow > > Learner_ -- not even > > mention it, in fact -- and this is an issue which > > most critics and readers > > do attempt to deal with right up front in > > considering the work. > > Other than projecting your own fantasies about what > might have led Pynchon to this choice, how do you > "deal with" it? > > Seeing as how the > discussion > here of MMV begins with - and continues to focus on > - > the fact that the story doesn't appear in Slow > Learner, on this point, you're preaching to the > wrong > crowd and might better direct your comments to those > critics and readers who haven't dealt with this fact > in their discussions of MMV. > > > > > ===== > http://pynchonoid.org > "everything connects" > > > > _______________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Win 1 of 4,000 free domain names from Yahoo! Enter > now. > http://promotions.yahoo.com/goldrush > ===== http://pynchonoid.org "everything connects" __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From keithsz at sbcglobal.net Tue Aug 24 20:21:15 2004 From: keithsz at sbcglobal.net (Keith McMullen) Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 18:21:15 -0700 Subject: Happy Birthday, Jorge Luis Borges In-Reply-To: <20040824165702.5762.qmail@web40706.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20040824165702.5762.qmail@web40706.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <0F1237DA-F635-11D8-A38A-000A95BDCA92@sbcglobal.net> On Aug 24, 2004, at 9:57 AM, pynchonoid wrote: >>>maybe it's the shit-encrusted spectacles you're wearing.<<< One of the hazards of having my head up my ass. From ottosell at yahoo.de Wed Aug 25 00:30:28 2004 From: ottosell at yahoo.de (Otto) Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 07:30:28 +0200 Subject: MMV: Windigo References: <20040824201120.91425.qmail@web50704.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <00b101c48a64$a3315b20$0101a8c0@i7t2q2> > > > but he's the one who complains about "constant > > sniping" but is the only sniper himself. > > Not the only one, I mean, recall who yr responsding to > as well, and I've certainly been known to snap on the > scope myself once in a while, but, at least I don't > get all schoolmarmy over it. Okay, NOW back to ... > I don't consider my posts as sniping, and occasional snapping isn't sniping. I try to address my criticism directly. Otto From ottosell at yahoo.de Wed Aug 25 00:33:05 2004 From: ottosell at yahoo.de (Otto) Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 07:33:05 +0200 Subject: MMV: Windigo References: Message-ID: <00bf01c48a65$008eb920$0101a8c0@i7t2q2> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ghetta Life" To: ; Sent: Tuesday, August 24, 2004 3:53 PM Subject: Re: MMV: Windigo > > Knowing Keith's manner, it seems obvious that he used that adjective > precisely because it became the operative word used against the 1984 > intro. > In other words, he's having a bit of fun with those who might be a bit > sensitive to the word "shitty." > > Ghetta > Of course, and I'm the first to accept a little humor and fun, even at my own expense. But not if such a funny-meant "judgement" stops the discussion as it did several times. Otto From ottosell at yahoo.de Wed Aug 25 00:45:54 2004 From: ottosell at yahoo.de (Otto) Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 07:45:54 +0200 Subject: man, that glenn scheper guy is weird! References: <20040824203630.28106.qmail@web50702.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <00d401c48a66$cb38a180$0101a8c0@i7t2q2> Dave, while I agree to you about Glenn I don't consider Joel's post as "sniping." There's a difference between being critical, maybe even being rough, and sniping. Where's my Prozac? Otto ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave Monroe" To: "Joel Katz" ; Sent: Tuesday, August 24, 2004 10:36 PM Subject: Re: man, that glenn scheper guy is weird! > Hey, man, step off The Scherpster. He's always > interesting, that's for sure. AND industrious. I > mean, let's face it, how many of you would have the > time/energy to post at length the way Glenn does given > a little extra flexibility and the, er, "talent" to > bridge a certain gap of yr own? Okay, then ... > > --- Joel Katz wrote: > > > well, i prefer standard as opposed to auto--but > > holy smoke! i don't know what the fuck he's > > talking about! somebody sic ashcroft on that guy! > > hide the trazodone! > > In the meantime, anyone either inviting Ashcroft tothe > party OR not sharing their pharmaceuticals is just > plain not in the spirit of things here ... > From vze422fs at verizon.net Wed Aug 25 02:12:52 2004 From: vze422fs at verizon.net (joeallonby) Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 03:12:52 -0400 Subject: man, that glenn scheper guy is weird! In-Reply-To: <00d401c48a66$cb38a180$0101a8c0@i7t2q2> Message-ID: My original take on Glenn was "This guy is WAY off his meds!" I even encouraged people not to interact with him because I thought that it would be potentially damaging to a person who was obviously in need of help and possibly teetering on the edge of full blown psychosis. I have since tempered that stance. He seems perfectly harmless and amazingly stable considering his bizarre obsession. Some people filter everything through Trotsky or feminism. Glenn filters everything through blowing himself. Who's to say he's wrong? You really can't argue with him. I've come to enjoy him, though obviously not as much as he enjoys himself. So let's cut Glenn some slack. He's definitely out there. But that adds a bit of spice, or in his case Spice Channel, to any discussion. I'm dying to hear what he has to say about Colonel Pudding and Katje. Peace, Joe on 8/25/04 1:45 AM, Otto at ottosell at yahoo.de wrote: > Dave, while I agree to you about Glenn I don't consider Joel's post as > "sniping." > > There's a difference between being critical, maybe even being rough, and > sniping. > > Where's my Prozac? > > Otto > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Dave Monroe" > To: "Joel Katz" ; > Sent: Tuesday, August 24, 2004 10:36 PM > Subject: Re: man, that glenn scheper guy is weird! > > >> Hey, man, step off The Scherpster. He's always >> interesting, that's for sure. AND industrious. I >> mean, let's face it, how many of you would have the >> time/energy to post at length the way Glenn does given >> a little extra flexibility and the, er, "talent" to >> bridge a certain gap of yr own? Okay, then ... >> >> --- Joel Katz wrote: >> >>> well, i prefer standard as opposed to auto--but >>> holy smoke! i don't know what the fuck he's >>> talking about! somebody sic ashcroft on that guy! >>> hide the trazodone! >> >> In the meantime, anyone either inviting Ashcroft tothe >> party OR not sharing their pharmaceuticals is just >> plain not in the spirit of things here ... >> > From jbor at bigpond.com Wed Aug 25 03:30:20 2004 From: jbor at bigpond.com (jbor) Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 18:30:20 +1000 Subject: MMV: Windigo (recap) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: King, Vincent. 'Giving Destruction a Name and a Face: Thomas Pynchon's "Mortality and Mercy in Vienna"'. Studies in Short Fiction 35.1, 1998, pp. 13-21. King notes, inaccurately, that "there is a general consensus that 'Mortality and Mercy' is one of Pynchon's best short stories." (13) I'm assuming he agrees with this "consensus" he has invented. He also argues that "Loon's moral failure stems from his Windigo psychosis, a condition that causes him to identify with a mythological figure that feeds on human flesh." (20) Nowhere does the story judge Loon's state of mind or his actions as a "moral failure", and certainly not a "moral failure" which is the product of his Ojibwa cultural heritage and beliefs. best on 24/8/04 8:18 AM, jbor wrote: > Summing up, it appears the only way for some readers to make the case for > 'MMV' as a "good" story is to transform Siegel into a "monster" and a > "psychopath", promote Grossman as some concealed moral yardstick within the > text, judge a non-Western culture as a "moral failure", and speculate that > Pynchon omitted it and any mention of it from _Slow Learner_ because readers > and critics didn't, and don't, get it, as Vincent King tries to do in his > essay. > > I don't buy any of it. While there are some nice turns of phrase and > provocative and interesting ideas, and moments of glib humour, I can > certainly understand why Pynchon chose to discard it when he was putting > together his collection of early stories. From scuffling at hotmail.com Wed Aug 25 05:12:21 2004 From: scuffling at hotmail.com (Ian Scuffling) Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 06:12:21 -0400 Subject: man, that glenn scheper guy is weird! In-Reply-To: <00d401c48a66$cb38a180$0101a8c0@i7t2q2> Message-ID: Whoa... the P-List déjà vu is killing me. Henry M From dmeury at lioninc.com Wed Aug 25 08:03:53 2004 From: dmeury at lioninc.com (David Meury) Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 06:03:53 -0700 Subject: man, that glenn scheper guy is weird! Message-ID: <433F878CBD5DFE4D9758FDC641477D0301422469@mail1.LIONIMTS.COM> Whoa... the P-List déjà vu is killing me. Dave M. From ghetta_outta at hotmail.com Wed Aug 25 08:22:42 2004 From: ghetta_outta at hotmail.com (Ghetta Life) Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 13:22:42 +0000 Subject: Short Stories Message-ID: http://www.nytimes.com/2004/08/25/books/25shor.html You can't make a living as a writer of short stories. "Oddly, though, you can still make a pretty good living by teaching other people how to write short stories. The form survives - and even thrives, in a forced, hothouse sort of way - because it has become the instructional medium of choice in most of our writing programs. The majority of people who enroll in these programs want to be novelists, but novels don't lend themselves very readily to the workshop format, and so would-be novelists these days spend at least part of their apprenticeship working on stories." _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From monropolitan at yahoo.com Wed Aug 25 11:12:33 2004 From: monropolitan at yahoo.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 09:12:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: man, that glenn scheper guy is weird! In-Reply-To: <433F878CBD5DFE4D9758FDC641477D0301422469@mail1.LIONIMTS.COM> Message-ID: <20040825161233.86848.qmail@web50704.mail.yahoo.com> Not to mention the uncanny doppelgangers ... Dave M. --- David Meury wrote: > > Whoa... the P-List d�j� vu is killing me. > > Dave M. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From monropolitan at yahoo.com Wed Aug 25 11:15:12 2004 From: monropolitan at yahoo.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 09:15:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: MMV: Windigo (recap) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040825161512.93188.qmail@web50707.mail.yahoo.com> His discussion of the story in no way hinges, pivots or otherwise depends on any aesthteic judgments about it. Nor does he make his observations in its supposed defense. You apparently claim otherwise ... --- jbor wrote: > King notes, inaccurately, that "there is a general > consensus that 'Mortality and Mercy' is one of > Pynchon's best short stories." (13) I'm assuming he > agrees with this "consensus" he has invented. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From monropolitan at yahoo.com Wed Aug 25 11:21:03 2004 From: monropolitan at yahoo.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 09:21:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: man, that glenn scheper guy is weird! In-Reply-To: <00d401c48a66$cb38a180$0101a8c0@i7t2q2> Message-ID: <20040825162103.80946.qmail@web50710.mail.yahoo.com> Did I in any way, shpe or form use, or even imply, the word "sniping" in re: Katz v. Scherper? I thought the supposedly (supposed by me, at any rate ...) good-naturedness of my ribbing of Joel was apparent there. But, seriously, Glenn deserves no more hassle than any of us here ('cept maybe John Krafft, who deserves absolutely no hassle whatsoever, and Murthy and Oliver, 'cos they've been kind enough to put up with us 24/7/12/et cetera et cetera ...), esp. as he is typically pretty damn interesting, so ... so I best get to work on "Togetherness," i suppose, though the rest of the worldseems intent on interfering ... --- Otto wrote: > Dave, while I agree to you about Glenn I don't > consider Joel's post as "sniping." > > There's a difference between being critical, maybe > even being rough, and sniping. > > Where's my Prozac? > > Otto > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Dave Monroe" > To: "Joel Katz" ; > > Sent: Tuesday, August 24, 2004 10:36 PM > Subject: Re: man, that glenn scheper guy is weird! > > > > Hey, man, step off The Scherpster. He's always > > interesting, that's for sure. AND industrious. > > I mean, let's face it, how many of you would have > > the time/energy to post at length the way Glenn > > does given a little extra flexibility and the, > > er, "talent" to bridge a certain gap of yr own? > > Okay, then ... > > > > --- Joel Katz wrote: > > > > > well, i prefer standard as opposed to auto--but > > > holy smoke! i don't know what the fuck he's > > > talking about! somebody sic ashcroft on that > > > guy! hide the trazodone! > > > > In the meantime, anyone either inviting Ashcroft > > to the party OR not sharing their pharmaceuticals > > is just plain not in the spirit of things here ... __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From monropolitan at yahoo.com Wed Aug 25 11:23:17 2004 From: monropolitan at yahoo.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 09:23:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: MMV: Windigo In-Reply-To: <00b101c48a64$a3315b20$0101a8c0@i7t2q2> Message-ID: <20040825162317.42941.qmail@web50709.mail.yahoo.com> Oh, hey, Otto, sorry, I wasn't referring to you. "Who yr"--you are, you're, you meaning you, Otto-- responding to," in the post I was responding to. But I do now gt yr nuanced use of "sniping" here ... --- Otto wrote: > I don't consider my posts as sniping, and occasional > snapping isn't sniping. I try to address my > criticism directly. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From monropolitan at yahoo.com Wed Aug 25 11:26:41 2004 From: monropolitan at yahoo.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 09:26:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: MMV: Context In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040825162641.93509.qmail@web50704.mail.yahoo.com> Whereas I think what's interesting there is just how many traces of it remain in his later works. The return of the repressed? Perhaps what'd be most productive here is to shuttle between these poles ... --- jbor wrote: > ... trying to pinpoint what it is about the story > that *Pynchon* has since come to reject or regret. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From jbor at bigpond.com Wed Aug 25 16:30:06 2004 From: jbor at bigpond.com (jbor) Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 07:30:06 +1000 Subject: Pynchon in Popular Magazines Message-ID: An interesting recent article which considers the original publication contexts of 'The Secret Integration' and those two excerpts from _Lot 49_ which appeared as self-contained stories in 'Esquire' and 'Cavalier': Title: Pynchon in Popular Magazines. Authors: Young, John K. Source: Critique; Summer2003, Vol. 44 Issue 4, p389, 16p Abstract: Discusses the significance of studying stories by Thomas Pynchon within their full textual history in understanding his place within popular media and his responses to the consumer culture through which he developed his initial authorial image. Background on an argument for the political engagement of postmodernism; Role of materialist criticism in literary scholarship; Examination of Pynchon as a professional author. Full Text Word Count: 7948 I can forward a pdf to anyone who's interested. Contact me offlist. best From monropolitan at yahoo.com Wed Aug 25 18:43:26 2004 From: monropolitan at yahoo.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 16:43:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Togetherness "Aerospace Safety" Message-ID: <20040825234326.99048.qmail@web50702.mail.yahoo.com> "In the July 1960 issue of Aerospace Safety, mention was made of the second Air Force-Industry conference on missile safety; and of plans to create Air Force-Industry Accident Review Boards. If future emphasis is to be placed on such joint action, much can be gained from a positive, realistic -- above all, cooperative --approach to safety problems." (Togetherness) "Aerospace Safety" SUDOCS CLASSIFICATION : D 301.44 SERIES TITLE: Flying Safety ORIGINATING AGENCY/DEPARTMENT: United States Air Force, Department of Defense FREQUENCY: Monthly YEARS PUBLISHED: 1945- DESCRIPTION: This series promotes aircraft mishap prevention. To underscore the significance of safer flying, articles concerning safety measures in the air and on the ground are included. In addition, emphasis is placed on aircraft engineering, training, and fields of flight. USES: Flying Safety would be useful to anyone with an interest in air traffic safety, particularly those in the military. RELATED PUBLICATIONS: Torch, Safety Magazine of AETC D 301.44/3 INDEXED IN: Air University Library Index to Military Periodicals Index to U. S. Government Periodicals ISSN: 0279-9308 AVAILABLE IN MICROFORM OR MACHINE READABLE FORMATS: Yes, this series is available in microform from MIM, and UMI. OTHER USEFUL INFORMATION: This series was formerly titled Aerospace Safety until Vol. 37, 1981 (ISSN 0001-9429). Reprint service for this series is available from UMI. http://www.libsci.sc.edu/bob/DEF.HTM Flying Safety Magazine http://afsafety.af.mil/magazine/htdocs/fsmfirst.htm __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From monropolitan at yahoo.com Wed Aug 25 21:15:28 2004 From: monropolitan at yahoo.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 19:15:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Togetherness "It's Better to Use Them ..." Message-ID: <20040826021528.72092.qmail@web50702.mail.yahoo.com> "Cooperation is even more important where the problem area is double-ended: where both contractor and military personnel perform the same job and are subject to the same safety hazards. Therefore, in the following discussion of one such area -- that of Bomarc transportation -- any references to slip-ups on the military end of the airlift are meant to be strictly non-partisan and objective. As long as there have been near accidents, it's better to use them as a guide for future safety than to pretend they never happened." (Togetherness) "non-partisan and objective" Cf. "fair and balanced"? Okay ... "it's better to use them as a guide" Cf. ... "Those who do not learn from history are condemned to repeat it" --George Santayana But what work of his is this from? Damn Infonet ... But recalling ... "Whether it was the booze they had brought along or the fact that Grossmann had just finished reading not only Santayana's The Last Puritan but also a considerable amount of T. S. Eliot ...." (MMV) http://waste.org/mail/?list=pynchon-l&month=0408&msg=92473 __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From monropolitan at yahoo.com Wed Aug 25 21:25:32 2004 From: monropolitan at yahoo.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 19:25:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Togetherness "So Far, So Good" Message-ID: <20040826022532.75005.qmail@web50701.mail.yahoo.com> "As this article goes to press, the safety record of Bomarc airlifts can be summed up in four words: so far, so good. You may recall, however, the optimist who jumped off the top of a New York office building. He was heard to yell the same thing as he passed the 20th floor: so far, so good." (Togetherness, p. 6) "so far, so good" And who said THAT first? Anyway ... >From Adrian Wisnicki, "A Trove of New Works by Thomas Pynchon? Bomarc Service News Rediscovered," Pynchon Notes 46-49 (Spring-Fall 2000-2001), pp. 9-34 ... "Though some readers may find 'Togetherness' dry compared with Pynchon's fiction, the article is not strictly technical. Pynchon's purpose is to discuss the safety precautions necessary when airlifting the IM-99A Bomarc missil, yet seemingly excess material repeated creps in. Consider the following passage: As this article goes to press, the safety record of Bomarc airlifts can be summed up in four words: so far, so good. You may recall, however, the optimist who jumped off the top of a New York office building. He was heard to yell the same thing as he passed the 20th floor: so far, so good. (6) "In the midst of a serious discussion, Pynchon uses this analogy--incongruous with the topic, yet surprisingly illuminating and humorous. Another stylistic feature of this passage recurs throughout the article: in addition to third-person exposition, Pynchon often uses the second perrson to address the reader directly. Further, he uses a number of em dashes throughout the article (em dashes, along with ellipses, are prominent in Gracity's Rainbow and Mason & Dixon) ...." (p. 15) Okay, gotta run, MIGHT be out of town tomorrow (Zatoichi, Ju-On), but will pick up the pace from here on out. Thanks for yr patience, and, of course, feel free to go on about MMV or set in on GR. Whatever ... __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From ottosell at yahoo.de Thu Aug 26 06:33:17 2004 From: ottosell at yahoo.de (Otto) Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 13:33:17 +0200 Subject: NP "I've seen things..." Message-ID: <006501c48b60$7d01ae80$0101a8c0@i7t2q2> Our expert panel votes for the top 10 sci-fi films: 1. Blade Runner (1982) Dir: Ridley Scott 2. 2001: A Space Odyssey (1968) Dir: Stanley Kubrick 3. Star Wars (1977)/Empire Strikes Back (1980) 4. Alien (1979) Dir: Ridley Scott 5. Solaris (1972) Dir: Andrei Tarkovsky 6. Terminator (1984)/T2: Judgment day (1991) Dir: James Cameron 7. The Day the Earth Stood Still (1951) Dir: Robert Wise 8. War of the Worlds (1953) Dir: Byron Haskin 9. The Matrix (1999) Dir: Andy & Larry Wachowski 10. Close Encounters of the Third Kind (1977) Dir: Steven Spielberg http://www.guardian.co.uk/life/news/page/0,12983,1290764,00.html From calbert at hslboxmaster.com Thu Aug 26 09:10:13 2004 From: calbert at hslboxmaster.com (charles f albert) Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 10:10:13 -0400 Subject: NP "I've seen things..." In-Reply-To: <006501c48b60$7d01ae80$0101a8c0@i7t2q2> References: <006501c48b60$7d01ae80$0101a8c0@i7t2q2> Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.0.20040826100808.01fc7698@mail.wdn.com> Terminator 1 and 2 and no Boy and His Dog? Matrix, Close Encounters - but no Andromeda Strain, or Phase4? Sure....whatever.... love, cfa At 07:33 AM 8/26/2004, you wrote: >Our expert panel votes for the top 10 sci-fi films: > >1. Blade Runner (1982) Dir: Ridley Scott >2. 2001: A Space Odyssey (1968) Dir: Stanley Kubrick >3. Star Wars (1977)/Empire Strikes Back (1980) >4. Alien (1979) Dir: Ridley Scott >5. Solaris (1972) Dir: Andrei Tarkovsky >6. Terminator (1984)/T2: Judgment day (1991) Dir: James Cameron >7. The Day the Earth Stood Still (1951) Dir: Robert Wise >8. War of the Worlds (1953) Dir: Byron Haskin >9. The Matrix (1999) Dir: Andy & Larry Wachowski >10. Close Encounters of the Third Kind (1977) Dir: Steven Spielberg >http://www.guardian.co.uk/life/news/page/0,12983,1290764,00.html From ghetta_outta at hotmail.com Thu Aug 26 10:14:58 2004 From: ghetta_outta at hotmail.com (Ghetta Life) Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 15:14:58 +0000 Subject: NP "I've seen things..." Message-ID: It's really hard to limit this kind of list to only 10, and let's not even try to rate them against each other. They are so different from each other. I think we'd have to come up with sub-categories to do them justice. But I've never heard of Phase4. Can you tell me more about that? Ghetta >From: charles f albert > >Terminator 1 and 2 and no Boy and His Dog? > >Matrix, Close Encounters - but no Andromeda Strain, or Phase4? > >Sure....whatever.... > > >At 07:33 AM 8/26/2004, you wrote: >>Our expert panel votes for the top 10 sci-fi films: >> >>1. Blade Runner (1982) Dir: Ridley Scott >>2. 2001: A Space Odyssey (1968) Dir: Stanley Kubrick >>3. Star Wars (1977)/Empire Strikes Back (1980) >>4. Alien (1979) Dir: Ridley Scott >>5. Solaris (1972) Dir: Andrei Tarkovsky >>6. Terminator (1984)/T2: Judgment day (1991) Dir: James Cameron >>7. The Day the Earth Stood Still (1951) Dir: Robert Wise >>8. War of the Worlds (1953) Dir: Byron Haskin >>9. The Matrix (1999) Dir: Andy & Larry Wachowski >>10. Close Encounters of the Third Kind (1977) Dir: Steven Spielberg >>http://www.guardian.co.uk/life/news/page/0,12983,1290764,00.html > > _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus From r.romeo at atlanticphilanthropies.org Thu Aug 26 11:19:18 2004 From: r.romeo at atlanticphilanthropies.org (Richard Romeo) Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 12:19:18 -0400 Subject: NP "I've seen things..." Message-ID: <55B62A3E95D99F4FBEC800D73AC2F2536EBE1C@nyc1a.local.atlanticphilanthropies.org> Phase 4 is a small film (like Let's Scare Jessica to Death--vampire ghoul hippie nightmare) but intelligent, engaging and frightening Two researchers investigate apparent problems with local ants--they get more than they bargained for--some wonderful insect photography to boot Made in 1974 I believe Richard -----Original Message----- From: owner-pynchon-l at waste.org [mailto:owner-pynchon-l at waste.org] On Behalf Of Ghetta Life Sent: Thursday, August 26, 2004 11:15 AM To: calbert at hslboxmaster.com; pynchon-l at waste.org Subject: Re: NP "I've seen things..." It's really hard to limit this kind of list to only 10, and let's not even try to rate them against each other. They are so different from each other. I think we'd have to come up with sub-categories to do them justice. But I've never heard of Phase4. Can you tell me more about that? Ghetta >From: charles f albert > >Terminator 1 and 2 and no Boy and His Dog? > >Matrix, Close Encounters - but no Andromeda Strain, or Phase4? > >Sure....whatever.... > > >At 07:33 AM 8/26/2004, you wrote: >>Our expert panel votes for the top 10 sci-fi films: >> >>1. Blade Runner (1982) Dir: Ridley Scott >>2. 2001: A Space Odyssey (1968) Dir: Stanley Kubrick >>3. Star Wars (1977)/Empire Strikes Back (1980) >>4. Alien (1979) Dir: Ridley Scott >>5. Solaris (1972) Dir: Andrei Tarkovsky >>6. Terminator (1984)/T2: Judgment day (1991) Dir: James Cameron >>7. The Day the Earth Stood Still (1951) Dir: Robert Wise >>8. War of the Worlds (1953) Dir: Byron Haskin >>9. The Matrix (1999) Dir: Andy & Larry Wachowski >>10. Close Encounters of the Third Kind (1977) Dir: Steven Spielberg >>http://www.guardian.co.uk/life/news/page/0,12983,1290764,00.html > > _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus From mittelwerk at hotmail.com Thu Aug 26 12:12:10 2004 From: mittelwerk at hotmail.com (Joel Katz) Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 13:12:10 -0400 Subject: star wars? homo Message-ID: got to be joking with that list. alien/blade-runner/2001 sure, but... how about: videodrome planet of the apes demon seed the thing (both versions) invasion of the body snatchers seconds (frankenheimer) starship troopers westworld soylent green village of the damned them day of the triffids and the harlan ellison-penned 'city on the edge of the forever' in the og star trek >From: "Otto" >To: "Pynchon Liste" >Subject: NP "I've seen things..." >Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 13:33:17 +0200 > >Our expert panel votes for the top 10 sci-fi films: > >1. Blade Runner (1982) Dir: Ridley Scott >2. 2001: A Space Odyssey (1968) Dir: Stanley Kubrick >3. Star Wars (1977)/Empire Strikes Back (1980) >4. Alien (1979) Dir: Ridley Scott >5. Solaris (1972) Dir: Andrei Tarkovsky >6. Terminator (1984)/T2: Judgment day (1991) Dir: James Cameron >7. The Day the Earth Stood Still (1951) Dir: Robert Wise >8. War of the Worlds (1953) Dir: Byron Haskin >9. The Matrix (1999) Dir: Andy & Larry Wachowski >10. Close Encounters of the Third Kind (1977) Dir: Steven Spielberg >http://www.guardian.co.uk/life/news/page/0,12983,1290764,00.html _________________________________________________________________ FREE pop-up blocking with the new MSN Toolbar � get it now! http://toolbar.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200415ave/direct/01/ From hraudask at sun3.oulu.fi Thu Aug 26 12:27:57 2004 From: hraudask at sun3.oulu.fi (Heikki Raudaskoski) Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 20:27:57 +0300 (EEST) Subject: NP "I've seen things..." In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.0.20040826100808.01fc7698@mail.wdn.com> References: <006501c48b60$7d01ae80$0101a8c0@i7t2q2> <6.1.2.0.0.20040826100808.01fc7698@mail.wdn.com> Message-ID: I love many of those listed, but indeed, Alphaville, Invasion of the Body Snatchers (the '56 one), It Came from Outer Space, Dark Star... Heikki From monropolitan at yahoo.com Thu Aug 26 12:08:36 2004 From: monropolitan at yahoo.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 10:08:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: NP "I've seen things..." In-Reply-To: <55B62A3E95D99F4FBEC800D73AC2F2536EBE1C@nyc1a.local.atlanticphilanthropies.org> Message-ID: <20040826170836.67074.qmail@web50707.mail.yahoo.com> You are correct sir ... Phase IV (1974) http://imdb.com/title/tt0070531/ Not to be confused with the ironically unrelated ... Phase IV (2001) http://imdb.com/title/tt0289758/ I don't think it's on DVD, nor do I think it's readily available on VHS. A friend (LSJTD is a favorite of his as well, I think that's just out on DVD) taped it for me way back when, a copy of a copy of a ... I later shelled out for a clean copy, but I recently grabbed another for $5 from the video store across the street from the Music Box Theater in Chicago (where I SHOULD be today, albeit at the Century Landmark, but, having gotten up 3 1/2 HOURS before I had to catch either the Amtrak or the Greyhound down, last minute delays of COURSE made me miss the Greyhound by three minutes, whichwas two minutes before the Amtrak left, from several blocks away, so ... So I am particularly cranky today, be forewarned) ... Anyway, Phase IV is examplary of what I like to call "The Boring 70s Science Fiction Film" (a favorite genre of mine, beginning in 1968 with 2001: A Sapce Odyssey, and continuing onward with Solaris, The Andromeda Strain, Silent Running, et al., up through Andrei Tarkovsky's paint-drying masterpiece, Stalker (1979)). Keep in mind, I really love these films, but I knew someone who managed a video store, told her to order Stalker. Everybody complained about it, apparently. One guy returned it, saying he "couldn't think that slow." The only customer who liked it was, of cpurse, "an English teacher," so ... But, man oh man oh man ... do note that nowhere in the movie does it say, "No ants were harmed in the making of this film." AND there's a novelization by Barry N. Malzberg, much of which is written from the point of view of the ants. Reminds me as well, Bernard Werber's book, Empire of the Ants (unrelalted to teh Joan Collins vehicle of 1977). Or Clifford Simak's City (an all time fave rave). SPOILER ALERT: First it's the dogs, then it's the ants ... Plus some interesting (?) trivia ... http://imdb.com/name/nm0800294/ http://imdb.com/title/tt0070531/crazycredits I hadn't really thought about that before. Okay, now I gotta see what provoked this ... --- Richard Romeo wrote: > Phase 4 is a small film (like Let's Scare Jessica > to Death--vampire ghoul hippie nightmare) but > intelligent, engaging and frightening > > Two researchers investigate apparent problems with > local ants--they get more than they bargained for-- > some wonderful insect photography to boot > > Made in 1974 I believe __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From monropolitan at yahoo.com Thu Aug 26 12:14:28 2004 From: monropolitan at yahoo.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 10:14:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: NP "I've seen things..." In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.0.20040826100808.01fc7698@mail.wdn.com> Message-ID: <20040826171428.51825.qmail@web50710.mail.yahoo.com> Ah, okay ... not quite in order, 2001: A Space Odyssey, Solaris, Blade Runner, Planet of the Apes, Metropolis, The Empire Strikes Back, Close Encounters of the Third Kind, Akira, gotta think, but certainly not goddam Matrix ... --- charles f albert wrote: > > Terminator 1 and 2 and no Boy and His Dog? > > Matrix, Close Encounters - but no Andromeda Strain, > or Phase4? > > At 07:33 AM 8/26/2004, you wrote: > >Our expert panel votes for the top 10 sci-fi films: > > > >1. Blade Runner (1982) Dir: Ridley Scott > >2. 2001: A Space Odyssey (1968) Dir: Stanley > > Kubrick > >3. Star Wars (1977)/Empire Strikes Back (1980) > >4. Alien (1979) Dir: Ridley Scott > >5. Solaris (1972) Dir: Andrei Tarkovsky > >6. Terminator (1984)/T2: Judgment day (1991) Dir: > > James Cameron > >7. The Day the Earth Stood Still (1951) Dir: > > Robert Wise > >8. War of the Worlds (1953) Dir: Byron Haskin > >9. The Matrix (1999) Dir: Andy & Larry Wachowski > >10. Close Encounters of the Third Kind (1977) > > Dir: Steven Spielberg > >http://www.guardian.co.uk/life/news/page/0,12983,1290764,00.html __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From megley1 at chartermi.net Thu Aug 26 12:49:24 2004 From: megley1 at chartermi.net (Meg Larson) Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 13:49:24 -0400 Subject: NP "I've seen things..." References: <006501c48b60$7d01ae80$0101a8c0@i7t2q2> <6.1.2.0.0.20040826100808.01fc7698@mail.wdn.com> Message-ID: <010501c48b95$0b841510$0633bc42@mycomputer> A-and what about Silent Running w/ Bruce Dern? Douglas Trumbull's directorial debut . . . M. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Heikki Raudaskoski" To: Sent: Thursday, August 26, 2004 1:27 PM Subject: Re: NP "I've seen things..." > > > > I love many of those listed, but indeed, Alphaville, Invasion of the > Body Snatchers (the '56 one), It Came from Outer Space, Dark Star... > > > Heikki > From scuffling at hotmail.com Thu Aug 26 12:54:39 2004 From: scuffling at hotmail.com (Ian Scuffling) Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 13:54:39 -0400 Subject: Sci-Lo-Fi In-Reply-To: Message-ID: All of these lists demonstrate that "great sci-fi movie" is practically oxymoronic. I don't have even one sci-fi movie on my top 50 favorites list (http://members.dsli.com/cyberia/Henrys50.htm ). The only one that I would consider putting there is... Blade Runner. Henry M -----Original Message----- From: Joel Katz got to be joking with that list. alien/blade-runner/2001 sure, but... how about: videodrome planet of the apes demon seed the thing (both versions) invasion of the body snatchers seconds (frankenheimer) starship troopers westworld soylent green village of the damned them day of the triffids and the harlan ellison-penned 'city on the edge of the forever' in the og star trek From megley1 at chartermi.net Thu Aug 26 13:11:41 2004 From: megley1 at chartermi.net (Meg Larson) Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 14:11:41 -0400 Subject: star wars? homo References: Message-ID: <012f01c48b98$2aa25cb0$0633bc42@mycomputer> Prolly should've mentioned that this list was chosen by 60 scientists, fwiw . . . M. > >From: "Otto" > >To: "Pynchon Liste" > >Subject: NP "I've seen things..." > >Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 13:33:17 +0200 > > > >Our expert panel votes for the top 10 sci-fi films: > > > >1. Blade Runner (1982) Dir: Ridley Scott > >2. 2001: A Space Odyssey (1968) Dir: Stanley Kubrick > >3. Star Wars (1977)/Empire Strikes Back (1980) > >4. Alien (1979) Dir: Ridley Scott > >5. Solaris (1972) Dir: Andrei Tarkovsky > >6. Terminator (1984)/T2: Judgment day (1991) Dir: James Cameron > >7. The Day the Earth Stood Still (1951) Dir: Robert Wise > >8. War of the Worlds (1953) Dir: Byron Haskin > >9. The Matrix (1999) Dir: Andy & Larry Wachowski > >10. Close Encounters of the Third Kind (1977) Dir: Steven Spielberg > >http://www.guardian.co.uk/life/news/page/0,12983,1290764,00.html > > _________________________________________________________________ > FREE pop-up blocking with the new MSN Toolbar - get it now! > http://toolbar.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200415ave/direct/01/ > > From r.romeo at atlanticphilanthropies.org Thu Aug 26 13:17:44 2004 From: r.romeo at atlanticphilanthropies.org (Richard Romeo) Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 14:17:44 -0400 Subject: star wars? homo Message-ID: <55B62A3E95D99F4FBEC800D73AC2F2536EBE21@nyc1a.local.atlanticphilanthropies.org> NO GODZILLA?....shame rich -----Original Message----- From: owner-pynchon-l at waste.org [mailto:owner-pynchon-l at waste.org] On Behalf Of Meg Larson Sent: Thursday, August 26, 2004 2:12 PM To: Joel Katz; Pynchlist Subject: Re: star wars? homo Prolly should've mentioned that this list was chosen by 60 scientists, fwiw . . . M. > >From: "Otto" > >To: "Pynchon Liste" > >Subject: NP "I've seen things..." > >Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 13:33:17 +0200 > > > >Our expert panel votes for the top 10 sci-fi films: > > > >1. Blade Runner (1982) Dir: Ridley Scott > >2. 2001: A Space Odyssey (1968) Dir: Stanley Kubrick > >3. Star Wars (1977)/Empire Strikes Back (1980) > >4. Alien (1979) Dir: Ridley Scott > >5. Solaris (1972) Dir: Andrei Tarkovsky > >6. Terminator (1984)/T2: Judgment day (1991) Dir: James Cameron > >7. The Day the Earth Stood Still (1951) Dir: Robert Wise > >8. War of the Worlds (1953) Dir: Byron Haskin > >9. The Matrix (1999) Dir: Andy & Larry Wachowski > >10. Close Encounters of the Third Kind (1977) Dir: Steven Spielberg > >http://www.guardian.co.uk/life/news/page/0,12983,1290764,00.html > > _________________________________________________________________ > FREE pop-up blocking with the new MSN Toolbar - get it now! > http://toolbar.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200415ave/direct/01/ > > From calbert at hslboxmaster.com Thu Aug 26 15:18:21 2004 From: calbert at hslboxmaster.com (C. F. Albert) Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 16:18:21 -0400 Subject: NP "I've seen things..." In-Reply-To: <20040826170836.67074.qmail@web50707.mail.yahoo.com> References: <55B62A3E95D99F4FBEC800D73AC2F2536EBE1C@nyc1a.local.atlanticphilanthropies.org> <20040826170836.67074.qmail@web50707.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.0.20040826161242.02a7d8e0@mail.wdn.com> Dave Monroe: "Anyway, Phase IV is examplary of what I like to call "The Boring 70s Science Fiction Film"" yup.........but boy, is it riveting.....and Richard's comments are also right on the mark...it is a very "intelligent" effort... But where are all the huzzahs for HE's Boy and His Dog....or is everyone down on Don Johnson?.. Its got to be one of the most charming endings in movie history.......Forget Renault and Rick, or Rhett and Scarlett - now THAT is a denoument.... also somewhere in the early teens, I would have to tip my cap to 12 monkeys.... love, cfa From calbert at hslboxmaster.com Thu Aug 26 15:19:47 2004 From: calbert at hslboxmaster.com (C. F. Albert) Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 16:19:47 -0400 Subject: Fwd: Re: NP "I've seen things..." Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.0.20040826161900.02a53a30@mail.wdn.com> I'm with Katz on The Thing......though I actually favor the re-make. >Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 16:09:15 -0400 >To: "Ghetta Life" >From: "C. F. Albert" >Subject: Re: NP "I've seen things..." > >I'd ruin it......but fear ants.....plain vanilla little ants...... > >If you can find it on video, trust me.....the mood is very much like the >remake of The Thing >(another conspicuous absence, btw) - that unmistakable sense of isolation.... > > >love, >cfa > > > > >At 11:14 AM 8/26/2004, you wrote: > >>It's really hard to limit this kind of list to only 10, and let's not >>even try to rate them against each other. They are so different from each >>other. >>I think we'd have to come up with sub-categories to do them >>justice. But I've never heard of Phase4. Can you tell me more about that? >> >>Ghetta >> >>>From: charles f albert >>> >>>Terminator 1 and 2 and no Boy and His Dog? >>> >>>Matrix, Close Encounters - but no Andromeda Strain, or Phase4? >>> >>>Sure....whatever.... >>> >>> >>>At 07:33 AM 8/26/2004, you wrote: >>>>Our expert panel votes for the top 10 sci-fi films: >>>> >>>>1. Blade Runner (1982) Dir: Ridley Scott >>>>2. 2001: A Space Odyssey (1968) Dir: Stanley Kubrick >>>>3. Star Wars (1977)/Empire Strikes Back (1980) >>>>4. Alien (1979) Dir: Ridley Scott >>>>5. Solaris (1972) Dir: Andrei Tarkovsky >>>>6. Terminator (1984)/T2: Judgment day (1991) Dir: James Cameron >>>>7. The Day the Earth Stood Still (1951) Dir: Robert Wise >>>>8. War of the Worlds (1953) Dir: Byron Haskin >>>>9. The Matrix (1999) Dir: Andy & Larry Wachowski >>>>10. Close Encounters of the Third Kind (1977) Dir: Steven Spielberg >>>>http://www.guardian.co.uk/life/news/page/0,12983,1290764,00.html >> >>_________________________________________________________________ >>MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* >>http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus From r.romeo at atlanticphilanthropies.org Thu Aug 26 15:10:34 2004 From: r.romeo at atlanticphilanthropies.org (Richard Romeo) Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 16:10:34 -0400 Subject: NP "I've seen things..." Message-ID: <55B62A3E95D99F4FBEC800D73AC2F2536EBE25@nyc1a.local.atlanticphilanthropies.org> If 12 Monkeys better yet--Brazil Richard -----Original Message----- From: owner-pynchon-l at waste.org [mailto:owner-pynchon-l at waste.org] On Behalf Of C. F. Albert Sent: Thursday, August 26, 2004 4:18 PM To: pynchon-l at waste.org Subject: RE: NP "I've seen things..." Dave Monroe: "Anyway, Phase IV is examplary of what I like to call "The Boring 70s Science Fiction Film"" yup.........but boy, is it riveting.....and Richard's comments are also right on the mark...it is a very "intelligent" effort... But where are all the huzzahs for HE's Boy and His Dog....or is everyone down on Don Johnson?.. Its got to be one of the most charming endings in movie history.......Forget Renault and Rick, or Rhett and Scarlett - now THAT is a denoument.... also somewhere in the early teens, I would have to tip my cap to 12 monkeys.... love, cfa From r.romeo at atlanticphilanthropies.org Thu Aug 26 15:11:54 2004 From: r.romeo at atlanticphilanthropies.org (Richard Romeo) Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 16:11:54 -0400 Subject: NP "I've seen things..." Message-ID: <55B62A3E95D99F4FBEC800D73AC2F2536EBE26@nyc1a.local.atlanticphilanthropies.org> Lots of great lines in The Thing (80s version) Clarke: I don't know what's in there but it's really weird and pissed off (or words to that effect) -----Original Message----- From: owner-pynchon-l at waste.org [mailto:owner-pynchon-l at waste.org] On Behalf Of C. F. Albert Sent: Thursday, August 26, 2004 4:20 PM To: pynchon-l at waste.org Subject: Fwd: Re: NP "I've seen things..." I'm with Katz on The Thing......though I actually favor the re-make. >Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 16:09:15 -0400 >To: "Ghetta Life" >From: "C. F. Albert" >Subject: Re: NP "I've seen things..." > >I'd ruin it......but fear ants.....plain vanilla little ants...... > >If you can find it on video, trust me.....the mood is very much like the >remake of The Thing >(another conspicuous absence, btw) - that unmistakable sense of isolation.... > > >love, >cfa > > > > >At 11:14 AM 8/26/2004, you wrote: > >>It's really hard to limit this kind of list to only 10, and let's not >>even try to rate them against each other. They are so different from each >>other. >>I think we'd have to come up with sub-categories to do them >>justice. But I've never heard of Phase4. Can you tell me more about that? >> >>Ghetta >> >>>From: charles f albert >>> >>>Terminator 1 and 2 and no Boy and His Dog? >>> >>>Matrix, Close Encounters - but no Andromeda Strain, or Phase4? >>> >>>Sure....whatever.... >>> >>> >>>At 07:33 AM 8/26/2004, you wrote: >>>>Our expert panel votes for the top 10 sci-fi films: >>>> >>>>1. Blade Runner (1982) Dir: Ridley Scott >>>>2. 2001: A Space Odyssey (1968) Dir: Stanley Kubrick >>>>3. Star Wars (1977)/Empire Strikes Back (1980) >>>>4. Alien (1979) Dir: Ridley Scott >>>>5. Solaris (1972) Dir: Andrei Tarkovsky >>>>6. Terminator (1984)/T2: Judgment day (1991) Dir: James Cameron >>>>7. The Day the Earth Stood Still (1951) Dir: Robert Wise >>>>8. War of the Worlds (1953) Dir: Byron Haskin >>>>9. The Matrix (1999) Dir: Andy & Larry Wachowski >>>>10. Close Encounters of the Third Kind (1977) Dir: Steven Spielberg >>>>http://www.guardian.co.uk/life/news/page/0,12983,1290764,00.html >> >>_________________________________________________________________ >>MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* >>http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus From ottosell at yahoo.de Thu Aug 26 15:23:53 2004 From: ottosell at yahoo.de (Otto) Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 22:23:53 +0200 Subject: NP "I've seen things..." References: <006501c48b60$7d01ae80$0101a8c0@i7t2q2> <6.1.2.0.0.20040826100808.01fc7698@mail.wdn.com> Message-ID: <004e01c48baa$9c7f34e0$0101a8c0@i7t2q2> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Heikki Raudaskoski" To: Sent: Thursday, August 26, 2004 7:27 PM Subject: Re: NP "I've seen things..." > > > I love many of those listed, but indeed, Alphaville, Invasion of the > Body Snatchers (the '56 one), It Came from Outer Space, Dark Star... > > > Heikki Right, "Dark Star" should've been on that list - for intelligence and humor. Otto From monropolitan at yahoo.com Thu Aug 26 15:27:46 2004 From: monropolitan at yahoo.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 13:27:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: star wars? homo In-Reply-To: <012f01c48b98$2aa25cb0$0633bc42@mycomputer> Message-ID: <20040826202746.91880.qmail@web50701.mail.yahoo.com> Then you REALLY have to wonder why The Andromeda Strain wasn't listed. Or maybe not. They're perhaps too realistically, well, nerdy there ... --- Meg Larson wrote: > Prolly should've mentioned that this list was chosen > by 60 scientists, fwiw __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From mittelwerk at hotmail.com Thu Aug 26 15:30:05 2004 From: mittelwerk at hotmail.com (Joel Katz) Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 16:30:05 -0400 Subject: holy autofellatio Message-ID: phase IV was directed by saul bass--yep, that one, legendary hitchcock title designer (yep, vertigo, et al.) _________________________________________________________________ Is your PC infected? Get a FREE online computer virus scan from McAfee� Security. http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 From monropolitan at yahoo.com Thu Aug 26 15:31:57 2004 From: monropolitan at yahoo.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 13:31:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Sci-Lo-Fi In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040826203157.28234.qmail@web50703.mail.yahoo.com> Brazil and Pi aren't SF? But I'd start with The 400 Blows as well, alphabetical order or no, and end up at LEAST with Yojimbo (Z perhaps hovering at the next tier below). Then again, I'd likely have the original Bedazzled and Cabin Boy in there as well, so ... --- Ian Scuffling wrote: > All of these lists demonstrate that "great sci-fi > movie" is practically oxymoronic. I don't have > even one sci-fi movie on my top 50 favorites list > (http://members.dsli.com/cyberia/Henrys50.htm ). > The only one that I would consider putting there > is... Blade Runner. Oh, and, hey, Joel, there's a Criterion Collection release of Videodrome just over the horizon ... http://www.criterionco.com/asp/release.asp?id=248 http://www.criterionco.com/ Okay, back to "Togetherness." All together now ... __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail � Now with 25x more storage than before! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From WillLayman at comcast.net Thu Aug 26 15:34:02 2004 From: WillLayman at comcast.net (Will Layman) Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 16:34:02 -0400 Subject: Sci-Fi Camp Message-ID: My own favorite piece of science fiction -- for pure pleasure per frame -- is "The Valley of the Gwangi," starring James Franciscus (also the star of "Beneath the Planet of the Apes," the most creepily 70s of the Ape films). Franciscus plays Tuck Frias, a cowboy who -- accompanied by a little Mexican boy, a crusty old geezer and others -- chances upon a hidden valley still populated by killer dinosaurs. John Ford meets Jurassic Speilberg -- with a heaping load of Roger Corman for good measure, it is the best kind of late-night movie. -- Will From quail at libyrinth.com Thu Aug 26 15:34:00 2004 From: quail at libyrinth.com (quail at libyrinth.com) Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 16:34:00 -0400 Subject: NP: Phase IV Message-ID: <200408262034.i7QKY05K021314@mail4.atl.registeredsite.com> > Phase 4 is a small film but intelligent, engaging and frightening I remember being terrified of the book when I was a kid. It had the shortest -- and creepiest -- chapter I had ever read up until that point: "The colony fed." Heh. I goddamn love hyper-intelligent killer ants. --Quail From WillLayman at comcast.net Thu Aug 26 15:36:05 2004 From: WillLayman at comcast.net (Will Layman) Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 16:36:05 -0400 Subject: Sci-Lo-Fi In-Reply-To: <20040826203157.28234.qmail@web50703.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: You think you can mention the contemporary masterpiece, CABIN BOY, without getting a direct and immediate reply? Only a real "fancy boy" would choose that flick, and I applaud you. w On 8/26/04 4:31 PM, "Dave Monroe" wrote: > Brazil and Pi aren't SF? But I'd start with The 400 > Blows as well, alphabetical order or no, and end up at > LEAST with Yojimbo (Z perhaps hovering at the next > tier below). Then again, I'd likely have the original > Bedazzled and Cabin Boy in there as well, so ... > > --- Ian Scuffling wrote: > >> All of these lists demonstrate that "great sci-fi >> movie" is practically oxymoronic. I don't have >> even one sci-fi movie on my top 50 favorites list >> (http://members.dsli.com/cyberia/Henrys50.htm ). >> The only one that I would consider putting there >> is... Blade Runner. > > Oh, and, hey, Joel, there's a Criterion Collection > release of Videodrome just over the horizon ... > > http://www.criterionco.com/asp/release.asp?id=248 > > http://www.criterionco.com/ > > Okay, back to "Togetherness." All together now ... > > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Mail ? Now with 25x more storage than before! > http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From monropolitan at yahoo.com Thu Aug 26 15:38:23 2004 From: monropolitan at yahoo.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 13:38:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: NP "I've seen things..." In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.0.20040826161242.02a7d8e0@mail.wdn.com> Message-ID: <20040826203823.78519.qmail@web50707.mail.yahoo.com> Oh, yeah, don't get me wrong, again, we're talking one of my favorite genres, even if I had to invent it. But, in alphabetical order, 2001: A Space Odyssey, Akira, Blade Runner, A Boy and His Dog, Brazil, Close Encounters of the Third Kind, The Day the Earth Stood Still, The Empire Strikes Back, Metropolis, Solaris ... --- "C. F. Albert" wrote: > > Dave Monroe: > > "Anyway, Phase IV is examplary of what I like to > call "The Boring 70s Science Fiction Film"" > > yup.........but boy, is it riveting.....and > Richard's comments are also right on the mark...it > is a very "intelligent" effort... > > But where are all the huzzahs for HE's Boy and His > Dog....or is everyone down on Don Johnson?.. > > Its got to be one of the most charming endings in > movie history....... __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From monropolitan at yahoo.com Thu Aug 26 15:40:40 2004 From: monropolitan at yahoo.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 13:40:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: NP "I've seen things..." Message-ID: <20040826204040.96710.qmail@web50701.mail.yahoo.com> Oh, dammit, sorry, strike The Day the Earth Stood Still and add Planet of the Apes. Blanked there ... --- Dave Monroe wrote: > > But, in alphabetical order, 2001: A Space Odyssey, > Akira, Blade Runner, A Boy and His Dog, Brazil, > Close Encounters of the Third Kind, The Day the > Earth Stood Still, The Empire Strikes Back, > Metropolis, Solaris ... __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From calbert at hslboxmaster.com Thu Aug 26 15:59:36 2004 From: calbert at hslboxmaster.com (C. F. Albert) Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 16:59:36 -0400 Subject: Sci-Lo-Fi In-Reply-To: References: <20040826203157.28234.qmail@web50703.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.0.20040826165832.02ad0ba8@mail.wdn.com> That would be "Fancy Lad", esne... Now avert your eyes... love, cfa At 04:36 PM 8/26/2004, you wrote: >You think you can mention the contemporary masterpiece, CABIN BOY, without >getting a direct and immediate reply? > >Only a real "fancy boy" would choose that flick, and I applaud you. > >w > >On 8/26/04 4:31 PM, "Dave Monroe" wrote: > > > Brazil and Pi aren't SF? But I'd start with The 400 > > Blows as well, alphabetical order or no, and end up at > > LEAST with Yojimbo (Z perhaps hovering at the next > > tier below). Then again, I'd likely have the original > > Bedazzled and Cabin Boy in there as well, so ... > > > > --- Ian Scuffling wrote: > > > >> All of these lists demonstrate that "great sci-fi > >> movie" is practically oxymoronic. I don't have > >> even one sci-fi movie on my top 50 favorites list > >> (http://members.dsli.com/cyberia/Henrys50.htm ). > >> The only one that I would consider putting there > >> is... Blade Runner. > > > > Oh, and, hey, Joel, there's a Criterion Collection > > release of Videodrome just over the horizon ... > > > > http://www.criterionco.com/asp/release.asp?id=248 > > > > http://www.criterionco.com/ > > > > Okay, back to "Togetherness." All together now ... > > > > > > > > __________________________________ > > Do you Yahoo!? > > Yahoo! Mail ? Now with 25x more storage than before! > > http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From r.romeo at atlanticphilanthropies.org Thu Aug 26 15:47:59 2004 From: r.romeo at atlanticphilanthropies.org (Richard Romeo) Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 16:47:59 -0400 Subject: NP "I've seen things..." Message-ID: <55B62A3E95D99F4FBEC800D73AC2F2536EBE28@nyc1a.local.atlanticphilanthropies.org> I'd nix close encounters, maybe add clockwork orange or omega man Beneath the planet of the apes--love that one, too rich -----Original Message----- From: owner-pynchon-l at waste.org [mailto:owner-pynchon-l at waste.org] On Behalf Of Dave Monroe Sent: Thursday, August 26, 2004 4:38 PM To: C. F. Albert; pynchon-l at waste.org Subject: RE: NP "I've seen things..." Oh, yeah, don't get me wrong, again, we're talking one of my favorite genres, even if I had to invent it. But, in alphabetical order, 2001: A Space Odyssey, Akira, Blade Runner, A Boy and His Dog, Brazil, Close Encounters of the Third Kind, The Day the Earth Stood Still, The Empire Strikes Back, Metropolis, Solaris ... --- "C. F. Albert" wrote: > > Dave Monroe: > > "Anyway, Phase IV is examplary of what I like to > call "The Boring 70s Science Fiction Film"" > > yup.........but boy, is it riveting.....and > Richard's comments are also right on the mark...it > is a very "intelligent" effort... > > But where are all the huzzahs for HE's Boy and His > Dog....or is everyone down on Don Johnson?.. > > Its got to be one of the most charming endings in > movie history....... __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From megley1 at chartermi.net Thu Aug 26 15:50:39 2004 From: megley1 at chartermi.net (Meg Larson) Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 16:50:39 -0400 Subject: NP: SciFiList References: <20040826202746.91880.qmail@web50701.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <005601c48bae$61a52600$0633bc42@mycomputer> Asked to name their favorite author, the winner was Asimov, "I, Robot," followed by John Wyndham, "Day of the Triffids," which is one of my favorite movies on the list. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave Monroe" To: "Meg Larson" ; "Joel Katz" ; "Pynchlist" Sent: Thursday, August 26, 2004 4:27 PM Subject: Re: star wars? homo > Then you REALLY have to wonder why The Andromeda > Strain wasn't listed. Or maybe not. They're perhaps > too realistically, well, nerdy there ... > > --- Meg Larson wrote: > > > Prolly should've mentioned that this list was chosen > > by 60 scientists, fwiw > From monropolitan at yahoo.com Thu Aug 26 15:53:35 2004 From: monropolitan at yahoo.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 13:53:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Togetherness "When It Comes" Message-ID: <20040826205335.85993.qmail@web50707.mail.yahoo.com> "This is not to imply -- necessarily -- that IM-99A on and offloading crews have been living on borrowed time. Nor -- necessarily -- that the end of the winning streak, when it comes, will be as tragic as impacting against a concrete surface at 175 or so mph. But then again ..." (Togetherness) "when it comes" Cf. ... "If our world survives, the next great challenge to watch out for will come - you heard it here first - when the curves of research and development in artificial intelligence, molecular biology and robotics all converge. Oboy. It will be amazing and unpredictable, and even the biggest of brass, let us devoutly hope, are going to be caught flat-footed...." http://www.nytimes.com/books/97/05/18/reviews/pynchon-luddite.html __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From megley1 at chartermi.net Thu Aug 26 15:56:23 2004 From: megley1 at chartermi.net (Meg Larson) Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 16:56:23 -0400 Subject: NP "I've seen things..." References: <55B62A3E95D99F4FBEC800D73AC2F2536EBE28@nyc1a.local.atlanticphilanthropies.org> Message-ID: <006601c48baf$3199d7c0$0633bc42@mycomputer> Oh yeah, RR, I agree--CEOTTK was too Spielbergian for me. I threw in Silent Running earlier, and I might add Darkman with Liam Neeson. But the addition of Cabin Boy is priceless, mates . . . ----- Original Message ----- From: "Richard Romeo" To: "Dave Monroe" ; "C. F. Albert" ; Sent: Thursday, August 26, 2004 4:47 PM Subject: RE: NP "I've seen things..." > I'd nix close encounters, maybe add clockwork orange or omega man > > Beneath the planet of the apes--love that one, too > > rich > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-pynchon-l at waste.org [mailto:owner-pynchon-l at waste.org] On > Behalf Of Dave Monroe > Sent: Thursday, August 26, 2004 4:38 PM > To: C. F. Albert; pynchon-l at waste.org > Subject: RE: NP "I've seen things..." > > Oh, yeah, don't get me wrong, again, we're talking one > of my favorite genres, even if I had to invent it. > But, in alphabetical order, 2001: A Space Odyssey, > Akira, Blade Runner, A Boy and His Dog, Brazil, Close > Encounters of the Third Kind, The Day the Earth Stood > Still, The Empire Strikes Back, Metropolis, Solaris > ... > > --- "C. F. Albert" wrote: > > > > Dave Monroe: > > > > "Anyway, Phase IV is examplary of what I like to > > call "The Boring 70s Science Fiction Film"" > > > > yup.........but boy, is it riveting.....and > > Richard's comments are also right on the mark...it > > is a very "intelligent" effort... > > > > But where are all the huzzahs for HE's Boy and His > > Dog....or is everyone down on Don Johnson?.. > > > > Its got to be one of the most charming endings in > > movie history....... > > > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage! > http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail > > From monropolitan at yahoo.com Thu Aug 26 15:57:34 2004 From: monropolitan at yahoo.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 13:57:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Sci-Lo-Fi In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040826205734.36591.qmail@web50703.mail.yahoo.com> Also keep in mind, I think Freddie Got Fingered (2001) is the Cabin Boy for the twenty-first century. With Dude, Where's My Car not far behind (and, no, I HAVVEN'T seen Harold and Kumar Go to White Csatle yet, dammit). But I saw 15 films in, what, 1994, two of 'em were Cabin Boy, one was Star Trek: Gnerations, and the rest were Pulp Fiction. Hey, Jennifer, wanna buy a monkey? Okay ... --- Will Layman wrote: > You think you can mention the contemporary > masterpiece, CABIN BOY, without getting a direct > and immediate reply? > > Only a real "fancy boy" would choose that flick, and > I applaud you. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From WillLayman at comcast.net Thu Aug 26 16:06:30 2004 From: WillLayman at comcast.net (Will Layman) Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 17:06:30 -0400 Subject: Sci-Lo-Fi In-Reply-To: <20040826205734.36591.qmail@web50703.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: For fans of CABIN BOY, please be aware that there are currently two DVDs available containing eight episodes of the brilliant but weird-ass Chris Elliot sit-com, GET A LIFE. The episodes available include several classics: the one where his submarine arrives in the mail, "Zoo Animals on Wheels" where he in in the community theater show (funnier than WAITING FOR GUFFMAN?), the parody of ET where he encounters a non-cuddly alien named "Spewy," and the one where he falls in love with a model, courts hern, marries, has an affair, goes to counseling and then gets divorced -- all in one day. Yes, when I'm not reading difficult post-modern fiction, I improve my brain THIS way. w On 8/26/04 4:57 PM, "Dave Monroe" wrote: > Also keep in mind, I think Freddie Got Fingered (2001) > is the Cabin Boy for the twenty-first century. With > Dude, Where's My Car not far behind (and, no, I > HAVVEN'T seen Harold and Kumar Go to White Csatle yet, > dammit). But I saw 15 films in, what, 1994, two of > 'em were Cabin Boy, one was Star Trek: Gnerations, and > the rest were Pulp Fiction. Hey, Jennifer, wanna buy > a monkey? Okay ... > > --- Will Layman wrote: > >> You think you can mention the contemporary >> masterpiece, CABIN BOY, without getting a direct >> and immediate reply? >> >> Only a real "fancy boy" would choose that flick, and >> I applaud you. > > > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage! > http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From r.romeo at atlanticphilanthropies.org Thu Aug 26 16:21:43 2004 From: r.romeo at atlanticphilanthropies.org (Richard Romeo) Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 17:21:43 -0400 Subject: Phase IV Message-ID: <55B62A3E95D99F4FBEC800D73AC2F2536EBE2A@nyc1a.local.atlanticphilanthropies.org> The movies list should be open only to those films which did not make a lot of money, particularly post-Star Wars which really sucked the life out of great sci-fi movies in the 70s Others for consideration: outland w/ sean connery; Excalibur (john boorman); man w/ the x-ray eyes (ray milland) Richard -----Original Message----- From: owner-pynchon-l at waste.org [mailto:owner-pynchon-l at waste.org] On Behalf Of quail at libyrinth.com Sent: Thursday, August 26, 2004 4:34 PM To: pynchon-l at waste.org Subject: NP: Phase IV > Phase 4 is a small film but intelligent, engaging and frightening I remember being terrified of the book when I was a kid. It had the shortest -- and creepiest -- chapter I had ever read up until that point: "The colony fed." Heh. I goddamn love hyper-intelligent killer ants. --Quail From monropolitan at yahoo.com Thu Aug 26 17:04:59 2004 From: monropolitan at yahoo.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 15:04:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Sci-Lo-Fi In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040826220459.19057.qmail@web50702.mail.yahoo.com> Three of the best episodes, followed by, say, the Paperboy Olympics one (a sucker for that "Star Trek" fight scene music, me), and the one where he becomes a health inspector ("See this belt? Five bucks"). But have you seen Action Family or FDR: A One Man Show? http://imdb.com/title/tt0164320/ http://imdb.com/title/tt0164582/ On one convenient VHS cassette. CE is eerily, er, David Cassidy-like in AF. See also Snow Day (2000). Includes a great Iggy Pop moment. Also, there's the Handsome Boy Modeling School (another great GAL episode) album, plenty o' "Sparkles" (plus Biz Markie and Fr. Guido Sarducci) soundbites. Okay, now, anyone for David Lynch's "On the Air"? Okay then ... --- Will Layman wrote: > > The episodes available include several classics: > the one where his submarine arrives in the > mail, "Zoo Animals on Wheels" where he in in the > community theater show (funnier than WAITING FOR > GUFFMAN?), the parody of ET where he encounters a > non-cuddly alien named "Spewy" ... __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From monropolitan at yahoo.com Thu Aug 26 17:16:54 2004 From: monropolitan at yahoo.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 15:16:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Togetherness "The 2 Dash 2" Message-ID: <20040826221654.30425.qmail@web50701.mail.yahoo.com> "Let's look at some of the near misses. [...] Once a failed pin in the aircraft hoist gear sent a missile and trailer rumbling down the loading ramp at a clip which might have compared favorably with airborne cruise speed to anyone in the way. But nobody, luckily, was in the way. Everyone had been paying attention to the 2 dash 2's oft-repeated warning (repeated an even dozen times, to be exact): 'Keep personnel away from down-ramp end of trailer as it is being pulled up (or rolled down) loading ramp.'" (Togetherness) "the 2 dash 2" The 2 dash 2? 2-2? Let me know ... __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From monropolitan at yahoo.com Thu Aug 26 17:24:22 2004 From: monropolitan at yahoo.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 15:24:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Team America: World Police (2004) Message-ID: <20040826222422.28803.qmail@web50702.mail.yahoo.com> First the live action Thunderbirds, now ... http://www.teamamericamovie.com/ http://imdb.com/title/tt0372588/ Somebody handed me the trailer yesterday ... _______________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Win 1 of 4,000 free domain names from Yahoo! Enter now. http://promotions.yahoo.com/goldrush From davemarc at panix.com Thu Aug 26 18:28:29 2004 From: davemarc at panix.com (davemarc) Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 19:28:29 -0400 Subject: NP "I've seen things..." References: <20040826203823.78519.qmail@web50707.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <006601c48bc4$9705b100$2fc654a6@gmsc20b> Good to see Metropolis mentioned...and Godzilla too. Then there's Frankenstein/Bride of Frankenstein. What about The Parallax View and The Manchurian Candidate? Whatever. d. From davemarc at panix.com Thu Aug 26 18:29:18 2004 From: davemarc at panix.com (davemarc) Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 19:29:18 -0400 Subject: Togetherness "So Far So Good" and "When It Comes" References: <20040826205335.85993.qmail@web50707.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <006701c48bc4$97a46200$2fc654a6@gmsc20b> Yup--the roots of Pynchon's dread/skepticism/concern regarding what might seem to be "progress" go way back. We've seen the theme in the Luddite essay as well as the essays on 1984 and Stone Junction. When we argue over it here, it seems that the "So Far So Good" scenario is being enacted. d. From Gentle_Family at btinternet.com Thu Aug 26 18:37:20 2004 From: Gentle_Family at btinternet.com (David Gentle) Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 00:37:20 +0100 Subject: Phase IV References: <55B62A3E95D99F4FBEC800D73AC2F2536EBE2A@nyc1a.local.atlanticphilanthropies.org> Message-ID: <00a101c48bc5$afcbbe40$1f978351@tinypc> > Others for consideration: outland w/ sean connery; Excalibur (john > boorman); man w/ the x-ray eyes (ray milland) > > Richard Boorman also directed Zardoz, unquestionably the best film to feature Sean Connery as genetic experiment in a pair of orange swimming trunks. David Gentle From lupine at ncia.net Thu Aug 26 19:58:17 2004 From: lupine at ncia.net (Scott Badger) Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 20:58:17 -0400 Subject: NP "I've seen things..." References: <6.1.2.0.0.20040826161900.02a53a30@mail.wdn.com> Message-ID: <044f01c48bd0$f0e626d0$7a031845@DG2YWP41> Godzilla and no King Kong?? Star Trek and no Forbidden Planet??? Leslie Nielson at his most virile...... And speaking of firsts.....Frau im Mond? Le Voyage dans la Lune? Scott From tobylevy at juno.com Thu Aug 26 20:33:51 2004 From: tobylevy at juno.com (Toby G Levy) Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 21:33:51 -0400 Subject: I've seen things Message-ID: <20040826.213351.392.2.tobylevy@juno.com> How can Forbidden Planet not be on everyone's list of best sci-fi films??? Released in 1956, when Pynchon was a freshman at Cornell. Forbidden Planet starred a very young Leslie Nielsen and a very hot Anne Francis. Toby ________________________________________________________________ The best thing to hit the Internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the Web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! From vze422fs at verizon.net Thu Aug 26 23:15:25 2004 From: vze422fs at verizon.net (joeallonby) Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 00:15:25 -0400 Subject: star wars? homo In-Reply-To: <20040826202746.91880.qmail@web50701.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: on 8/26/04 4:27 PM, Dave Monroe at monropolitan at yahoo.com wrote: > Then you REALLY have to wonder why The Andromeda > Strain wasn't listed. Or maybe not. They're perhaps > too realistically, well, nerdy there ... > > --- Meg Larson wrote: I saw the Andromeda Strain in the theatre when it came out. I still recall the dead body of the woman standing up on the stairs. (Lynch borrowed the image for the dead cop in Blue Velvet.) They slit her wrist open and copper red powder poured out. I haven't seen the movie since I was a little kid. I still remember that image. I read the book as an adult. But that scene still defines the story in some ways for me. It was a powerful piece of imaagery. From vze422fs at verizon.net Thu Aug 26 23:22:19 2004 From: vze422fs at verizon.net (joeallonby) Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 00:22:19 -0400 Subject: NP "I've seen things..." In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.0.20040826161242.02a7d8e0@mail.wdn.com> Message-ID: on 8/26/04 4:18 PM, C. F. Albert at calbert at hslboxmaster.com wrote: > > > > But where are all the huzzahs for HE's Boy and His Dog....or is everyone > down on Don Johnson?.. > > Its got to be one of the most charming endings in movie > history.......Forget Renault and Rick, or Rhett and Scarlett - now THAT is > a denoument.... "I ate a lizard two days or so ago..." "He needs food and medicine right now!" Brilliant. I thought I was the only one who liked that movie. From vze422fs at verizon.net Thu Aug 26 23:23:42 2004 From: vze422fs at verizon.net (joeallonby) Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 00:23:42 -0400 Subject: NP "I've seen things..." In-Reply-To: <55B62A3E95D99F4FBEC800D73AC2F2536EBE25@nyc1a.local.atlanticphilanthropies.org> Message-ID: on 8/26/04 4:10 PM, Richard Romeo at r.romeo at atlanticphilanthropies.org wrote: > If 12 Monkeys better yet--Brazil > > Richard "You're officially dead." "Care for a little necrophilia?" From hraudask at sun3.oulu.fi Fri Aug 27 00:47:44 2004 From: hraudask at sun3.oulu.fi (Heikki Raudaskoski) Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 08:47:44 +0300 (EEST) Subject: NP "I've seen things..." In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: [Natasha [Vonbraun] is dazed and helped by [Ivan] Johnson down the hall] Johnson: Natasha, think of the word love [She regains her balance and they continue to escape] [In the lobby Natasha is still dazed. Johnson carries her to the parking garage] Not all the inhabitants died, but they were all stricken Those not asphyxiated by the absence of light... ...sped about crazily, like ants It was 23.15, Oceanic Time... ...when Natasha and I left Alphaville by the ring road A night drive across intersidereal space, and we'd be home Johnson: Don't look back Natasha: Do you think they're all dead? Johnson: Not yet They may recover, and Alphaville will be happy, like Florence Like Angoulême City, like Tokyorama Natasha: Have I slept for long? Johnson: No, just the span of a moment Natasha: Where are we? In the Lands Without? Johnson: Not yet Natasha: You're looking at me very strangely Johnson: Yes Natasha: You're waiting for me to say something to you Johnson: Yes Natasha: I don't know what to say They're words I don't know I wasn't taught them Help me Johnson: Impossible, Princess. Help yourself, then you'll be saved If you don't, you're as lost as the dead of Alphaville Natasha: I love you I love you The End -------------------------------------------------------------------- Jean-Luc Godard, "Alphaville" (1965) http://www.lafn.org/~cymbala/alphavil.html Heikki From mikeweaver at gn.apc.org Fri Aug 27 06:07:20 2004 From: mikeweaver at gn.apc.org (Mike Weaver) Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 12:07:20 +0100 Subject: NP "I've seen things..." In-Reply-To: <200408270700.i7R70EUN003870@waste.org> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20040827120209.00a62940@mail.gn.apc.org> At 02:00 27/08/04 -0500, you wrote: >, C. F. Albert at calbert at hslboxmaster.com wrote: > > > > But where are all the huzzahs for HE's Boy and His Dog....or is everyone > > down on Don Johnson?.. > > > > Its got to be one of the most charming endings in movie > > history.......Forget Renault and Rick, or Rhett and Scarlett - now THAT is > > a denoument.... > >"I ate a lizard two days or so ago..." > >"He needs food and medicine right now!" > >Brilliant. I thought I was the only one who liked that movie. Never seen the movie but the story is from Harlan Ellison's most productive era - qualitywise. I seem to remember the last line of the story is "..after all, a boy loves his dog." -------------- next part -------------- --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.742 / Virus Database: 495 - Release Date: 19/08/04 From jkyllo at clara.net Fri Aug 27 06:16:26 2004 From: jkyllo at clara.net (James Kyllo) Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 12:16:26 +0100 Subject: NP "I've seen things..." References: <5.1.0.14.0.20040827120209.00a62940@mail.gn.apc.org> Message-ID: <005901c48c27$4b0d6a00$c54387d4@jt5ij> I reread it last night, prompted by Charles' up for the movie .. and it still reads well you're almost right. (There's no "after all") best James ----- Original Message ----- From: Mike Weaver To: pynchon-l at waste.org Sent: Friday, August 27, 2004 12:07 PM Subject: Re: NP "I've seen things..." At 02:00 27/08/04 -0500, you wrote: >, C. F. Albert at calbert at hslboxmaster.com wrote: > > > > But where are all the huzzahs for HE's Boy and His Dog....or is everyone > > down on Don Johnson?.. > > > > Its got to be one of the most charming endings in movie > > history.......Forget Renault and Rick, or Rhett and Scarlett - now THAT is > > a denoument.... > >"I ate a lizard two days or so ago..." > >"He needs food and medicine right now!" > >Brilliant. I thought I was the only one who liked that movie. Never seen the movie but the story is from Harlan Ellison's most productive era - qualitywise. I seem to remember the last line of the story is "..after all, a boy loves his dog." ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.742 / Virus Database: 495 - Release Date: 19/08/04 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ghetta_outta at hotmail.com Fri Aug 27 09:19:08 2004 From: ghetta_outta at hotmail.com (Ghetta Life) Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 14:19:08 +0000 Subject: star wars? homo Message-ID: I read the book before the movie was made, back when I was in high school. I thought the book was very good, but God knows I might not feel the same if I were to read it today. The movie was very well done and kept close to the book, but I remember thinking the book was better than the film... Ghetta >From: joeallonby >I saw the Andromeda Strain in the theatre when it came out. I still recall >the dead body of the woman standing up on the stairs. (Lynch borrowed the >image for the dead cop in Blue Velvet.) They slit her wrist open and copper >red powder poured out. I haven't seen the movie since I was a little kid. I >still remember that image. I read the book as an adult. But that scene >still >defines the story in some ways for me. It was a powerful piece of imaagery. _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus From monropolitan at yahoo.com Fri Aug 27 13:34:51 2004 From: monropolitan at yahoo.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 11:34:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: NP "I've seen things..." In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040827183451.17873.qmail@web50703.mail.yahoo.com> A friend recommends listening to the commentary track on the DVD. Me, I just don't get the time, so ... --- joeallonby wrote: > Brilliant. I thought I was the only one who liked > that movie. _______________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Win 1 of 4,000 free domain names from Yahoo! Enter now. http://promotions.yahoo.com/goldrush From monropolitan at yahoo.com Fri Aug 27 13:41:00 2004 From: monropolitan at yahoo.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 11:41:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: I've seen things In-Reply-To: <20040826.213351.392.2.tobylevy@juno.com> Message-ID: <20040827184100.62177.qmail@web50702.mail.yahoo.com> And a very goateed Walter Pidegon. You know, FP, or War of the Worlds, or The Time Machine, or ... I'll always watch straight through if i stumble on 'em, but ... well, maybe ca. #11 or so on my list ... --- Toby G Levy wrote: > Forbidden Planet starred a very young Leslie Nielsen > and a very hot Anne Francis. But you ever see the "Honey West" series starring AF? My favorite line from the first HW novel, spoken poolside by the police chief: "Good God, Miss West, don't you ever wear clothes?" Reese Witherspoon'll be in the Now a Major Motion Picture ... __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From tyronemullet at hotmail.com Fri Aug 27 19:38:41 2004 From: tyronemullet at hotmail.com (Steve Maas) Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 17:38:41 -0700 Subject: NP--New York Fun Message-ID: Some of you New Yorkers (New Yorkists?) may be interested in this, from another list. Stampfel is 1/2 of original Holy Modal Rounders. Steve Maas ------- john kruth and bob holman welcome the rnc to manhattan with elegaic feelings american the poetry of gregory corso + poems and songs by antler, ani di franco, bob dylan and neil young monday, august 30th 8pm only $5 in honor of abe lincoln, the last great republican the bowery poetry club 308 bowery, nyc (across from cbgb) featuring: theresa byrnes celena glenn bob holman vicki hudspith john kruth moonshine edgar oliver bob rosenthal stephen smith peter stampfel liz swados anne waldman deanna zandt _________________________________________________________________ Don�t just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search! http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/ From jbor at bigpond.com Fri Aug 27 20:09:52 2004 From: jbor at bigpond.com (jbor) Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2004 11:09:52 +1000 Subject: 'Togetherness' Message-ID: http://www.themodernword.com/pynchon/pynchon_essays_together.html > Yup--the roots of Pynchon's dread/skepticism/concern regarding what might > seem to be "progress" go way back. We've seen the theme in the Luddite essay > as well as the essays > on 1984 and Stone Junction. Huh? It's an article written by a paid employee for a corporate newsletter to augment the operation manual. It's written in a light and breezy way to make a dull topic more interesting -- and, more overtly, to foreground the potential for "tragedy" in a context where the safety record is 100% clear, i.e. to address a potential complacency issue -- so that the target audience (Boeing employees involved in the airlift operation) will actually read it and benefit from the practical, "common sense" safety advice it incorporates. As well as jazzing up a dull topic, I'd say that it's far more likely that the slightly facetious tone Pynchon employs in a couple of spots in the article actually *downplays* whatever ideological demurs it might be speculated he held about US militarisation or nuclear weaponry at the time. In fact, on the strength of his *choice* of employment with Boeing the more logical speculation is that he *didn't* hold any such demurs at the time. The express concern in the article is about accidents and loss of life amongst Boeing employees and US military personnel, not about blowing up people and places on the other side of the world. NB that in describing one of those "near misses" which exemplify the purpose of the article, Pynchon is emphatic that there were "no explosions ... because explosive items like squibs and initiators are shipped separately". That missiles = explosions is not the issue. The article is providding practical advice about how to airlift the Bomarc missile safely, so that accidents are avoided in the loading and offloading phases of transporting the missile from Boeing to the Air Force base. The aim of the text is to maintain the current good domestic transportation record so that the US Armed Forces *can* continue to bomb the crap out of anyone they like. The pun in the title of the article is on working "together" -- both the "positive communication" between members of the crews at either end of the airlift (interestingly, as well as referring to the "in-group" communication between the human workers Pynchon talks about "communication" between the supervisors and the equipment they are using, which pre-empts or echoes the predominant animate-inanimate theme in _V._ in particular), and the Boeing corporation and the US Air Force continuing to work together cohesively (and productively) -- and on people like "Smith" and the tarmac supervisors at either end "keeping their heads together", so to speak, while the loading and unloading is going on. best > When we argue over it here, it seems that the "So Far So Good" scenario is > being enacted. From monropolitan at yahoo.com Fri Aug 27 20:01:04 2004 From: monropolitan at yahoo.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 18:01:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Togetherness "MIL-M-8090" Message-ID: <20040828010104.686.qmail@web50705.mail.yahoo.com> "(b) The only break to be used during loading is the hand brake. The parking brake -- required by MIL-M-8090 -- is only to keep the empty trailer from breaking loose, and should not be used when the missile is aboard. A lot of force has to be put on this brake to hold an empty trailer on a 17 degree incline, so it would be virtually useless as a physical restraint on missile and trailer." (Togetherness) "MIL-M-8090" APPENDIX E PERFORMANCE REQUIREMENTS FOR FOR TRAILER-MOUNTED SETS, KITS, AND OUTFITS E1. SCOPE E1.1. Scope. This appendix establishes specific mobility criteria for Sets, Kits and Outfits (SKOs) mounted on Army tactical trailers. This appendix is a mandatory part of this specification. The information contained herein is intended for compliance. E1.2. Purpose. These requirements are predicated upon the SKO being assembled to a non-standard tactical trailer [...] E6.1. The performance requirements in this appendix were extracted and adapted in part from SAE AS8090, �Mobility, Towed Aerospace Ground Equipment, General requirements for,� (formerly MIL-M-8090). The requirements extracted from SAE AS8090 were those addressing mobility Type V, �Mobile on highways and unimproved cross-country terrain.� Performance requrements were also extracted as applicable from MIL-DTL-45150, �Chassis, Trailer, 2-Wheel Cart Type � to 3-1/2 Ton.� https://aais.ria.army.mil/AAIS/Award_web_03/ DAAE2003D00850001/Award_attach/attach1_pt6.htm "A lot of force" Some rewriting of equations may be required ... http://www.school-for-champions.com/science/frictioncoeff.htm __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From monropolitan at yahoo.com Fri Aug 27 20:07:10 2004 From: monropolitan at yahoo.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 18:07:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Togetherness "T. O. 21-IM99A-2-2" Message-ID: <20040828010710.40269.qmail@web50702.mail.yahoo.com> "Technical Manual T.O. 21-IM99A-2-2 is the bible for Bomarc airlift loading procedures. Updated every three months, these 2 dash 2 instructions are the end product of dozens of on-the-spot observations at both on and offloadings, conferences with handling equipment design engineers, and coordination with Safety Engineering." (Togetherness, p. 7) "Technical Manual T.O. 21-IM99A-2-2" Cf. (?) ... "... the 2 dash 2's oft-repeated warning (repeated an even dozen times, to be exact): 'Keep personnel away from down-ramp end of trailer as it is being pulled up (or rolled down) loading ramp.'" (Togetherness, p. 6) "(2) Disregard of the warning in the 2 dash 2 about staying clear of the downramp end of the trailer" (ibid.) "T.O. 21-IM99A-2-2" = "the 2 dash 2"? Okay ... __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Get it on your mobile phone. http://mobile.yahoo.com/maildemo From monropolitan at yahoo.com Fri Aug 27 20:15:15 2004 From: monropolitan at yahoo.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 18:15:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: NP--New York Fun In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040828011515.33075.qmail@web50703.mail.yahoo.com> John homeboy Kruth ... http://www.joyfarm.com/kruth.htm http://www.shepherd-express.com/shepherd/20/25/night_and_day/night_and_day.html ... AND Antler? Sheesh ... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antler_%28Poet%29 Though I know Pete Stampfel primarily as having covered "Ouch!" on a Rutles tribute album ... http://www.rutlemania.org/lean6.html RON: Yeah...whatever you say...is that next? DEBBIE: Yep, by PETER STAMPFEL & THE BOTTLECAPS. RON: I thought this was called "Ouch!." Is this Stampfel bloke a method actor with bare feet leapin' about on real bottle-caps? Where did all the "Eeech! Yow! Cripes!" etc, come from? Silly old fool... http://www.rutlemania.org/RHRnotes.html Thanks. Will forward to expatriate friends ... --- Steve Maas wrote: > Some of you New Yorkers (New Yorkists?) may be > interested in this, from another list. Stampfel is > 1/2 of original Holy Modal Rounders. > Steve Maas > > ------- > > john kruth and bob holman welcome the rnc to > manhattan with > elegaic feelings american > the poetry of gregory corso > + poems and songs by antler, ani di franco, bob > dylan and neil young > monday, august 30th 8pm > only $5 in honor of abe lincoln, the last great > republican > the bowery poetry club > 308 bowery, nyc (across from cbgb) > featuring: > theresa byrnes > celena glenn > bob holman > vicki hudspith > john kruth > moonshine > edgar oliver > bob rosenthal > stephen smith > peter stampfel > liz swados > anne waldman > deanna zandt __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From pynchonoid at yahoo.com Fri Aug 27 23:25:24 2004 From: pynchonoid at yahoo.com (pynchonoid) Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 21:25:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 'Togetherness' In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040828042524.83421.qmail@web40713.mail.yahoo.com> The notion that Pynchon works for Boeing for patriotic reasons or because he wants to see nuclear weapons safely used in war is absurd. Pynchon's working underground, doing research; what he learns at Boeing feeds into _Gravity's Rainbow_ which is a searing indictment of the way They harness missile and nuclear technology for use in a War that Never Ends. ===== http://pynchonoid.org "everything connects" _______________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Win 1 of 4,000 free domain names from Yahoo! Enter now. http://promotions.yahoo.com/goldrush From ottosell at yahoo.de Sat Aug 28 01:29:08 2004 From: ottosell at yahoo.de (Otto) Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2004 08:29:08 +0200 Subject: 'Togetherness' References: <20040828042524.83421.qmail@web40713.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <009601c48cc8$547c5a00$0101a8c0@i7t2q2> ----- Original Message ----- From: "pynchonoid" To: Sent: Saturday, August 28, 2004 6:25 AM Subject: Re: 'Togetherness' > The notion that Pynchon works for Boeing for patriotic > reasons or because he wants to see nuclear weapons > safely used in war is absurd. Pynchon's working > underground, doing research; what he learns at Boeing > feeds into _Gravity's Rainbow_ which is a searing > indictment of the way They harness missile and nuclear > technology for use in a War that Never Ends. > We cannot say for sure that he's been only doing "reseach" at Boeing, but I think it's at least safe to say that he did *not quit* his Boeing-job for patriotic reasons. He's been working for Boeing from "February 2, 1960, to September 13, 1962." (Wisnicki, p. 9) Is it a coincidence that this September 1962 was the month the first SS-4 MRBMs arrived at Cuba and the Cuban Missile Crisis began? "On September 15, 1962, The Poltava, a Soviet large-hatch cargo ship, docks at the port of Mariel, Cuba, carrying the first SS-4 MRBMs to be deployed." http://www.marxists.org/history/cuba/subject/missile-crisis/ch02.htm Otto From mwaia at yahoo.com Sat Aug 28 08:08:52 2004 From: mwaia at yahoo.com (Mark Wright AIA) Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2004 06:08:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 'Togetherness' In-Reply-To: <009601c48cc8$547c5a00$0101a8c0@i7t2q2> Message-ID: <20040828130852.10999.qmail@web13826.mail.yahoo.com> Howdy Otto Forgive me, I've been out of the loop for a while and haven't been following this, but: Are you saying that Pynchon somehow knew that Crazy Ivan was putting missiles into Cuba before Kennedy did? And that his leaving Boeing just then had something to do with the Cuban missile crisis? Or are you pointing out that his leaving Boing couldn't have had anything to do with Cuba? Or that the Russians moved into Cuba because that pesky Pynchon was finally out of the way? Mark --- Otto wrote: > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "pynchonoid" > To: > Sent: Saturday, August 28, 2004 6:25 AM > Subject: Re: 'Togetherness' > > > > The notion that Pynchon works for Boeing for patriotic > > reasons or because he wants to see nuclear weapons > > safely used in war is absurd. Pynchon's working > > underground, doing research; what he learns at Boeing > > feeds into _Gravity's Rainbow_ which is a searing > > indictment of the way They harness missile and nuclear > > technology for use in a War that Never Ends. > > > > We cannot say for sure that he's been only doing "reseach" at Boeing, > but I > think it's at least safe to say that he did *not quit* his Boeing-job > for > patriotic reasons. > > He's been working for Boeing from "February 2, 1960, to September 13, > 1962." > (Wisnicki, p. 9) > Is it a coincidence that this September 1962 was the month the first > SS-4 > MRBMs arrived at Cuba and the Cuban Missile Crisis began? > > "On September 15, 1962, The Poltava, a Soviet large-hatch cargo ship, > docks > at the port of Mariel, Cuba, carrying the first SS-4 MRBMs to be > deployed." > http://www.marxists.org/history/cuba/subject/missile-crisis/ch02.htm > > Otto > > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Address AutoComplete - You start. We finish. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From pynchonoid at yahoo.com Sat Aug 28 11:58:43 2004 From: pynchonoid at yahoo.com (pynchonoid) Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2004 09:58:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: "AN ARMY OF LOVERS CAN BE BEATEN." Message-ID: <20040828165843.96130.qmail@web40702.mail.yahoo.com> Brooklyn Orgastic Politics Collective: "Imagine the Republican delegates so consumed in fucking and sucking that they forget to nominate Bush.... On Thursday, September 2nd, for several hours prior to and during George Bush�s re-nomination ceremony, the Brooklyn Orgastic Politics Collective (BOP-C) will be conducting Orgone operations with several of our Cloudbusters, attempting to suck the fascism from the Republican National Convention at Madison Square Garden.� From an undisclosed location on the Brooklyn waterfront, we will be redirecting the flow of Life Energy above the deadly concentrations of hatred and greed accumulating in midtown Manhattan.� If indeed our theories prove correct, it may be possible to reduce the entire convention floor to a quivering Saturnalia.�� The moans of Love shall ring out across the Land!" http://www.bopcollective.org/ ===== http://pynchonoid.org "everything connects" __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From artkm at execpc.com Sat Aug 28 13:07:11 2004 From: artkm at execpc.com (kent mueller) Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2004 13:07:11 -0500 Subject: 'Togetherness' In-Reply-To: <20040828042524.83421.qmail@web40713.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I suppose the notion that Pynchon was working at Boeing for a paycheck is simply beyond the pale. Kent Visit KM art's web site at http://www.execpc.com/~artkm/ > From: pynchonoid > Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 21:25:24 -0700 (PDT) > To: pynchon-l at waste.org > Subject: Re: 'Togetherness' > > The notion that Pynchon works for Boeing for patriotic > reasons or because he wants to see nuclear weapons > safely used in war is absurd. Pynchon's working > underground, doing research; what he learns at Boeing > feeds into _Gravity's Rainbow_ which is a searing > indictment of the way They harness missile and nuclear > technology for use in a War that Never Ends. > > > > ===== > http://pynchonoid.org > "everything connects" > > > > _______________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Win 1 of 4,000 free domain names from Yahoo! Enter now. > http://promotions.yahoo.com/goldrush > > > _____________________________________________________ > This message scanned for viruses by CoreComm > From ottosell at yahoo.de Sat Aug 28 13:20:48 2004 From: ottosell at yahoo.de (Otto) Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2004 20:20:48 +0200 Subject: 'Togetherness' References: <20040828130852.10999.qmail@web13826.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <002201c48d2b$bfaccea0$0101a8c0@i7t2q2> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark Wright AIA" To: Sent: Saturday, August 28, 2004 3:08 PM Subject: Re: 'Togetherness' > Howdy Otto > > Forgive me, I've been out of the loop for a while and haven't been > following this, but: > Hi Mark, fine to hear again from you! > Are you saying that Pynchon somehow knew that Crazy Ivan was putting > missiles into Cuba before Kennedy did? That was known quite a while before the actual September-crisis came. I knew that the Russians were about to deploy missiles close to the USA because I was a soldier's kid and there were continuous alarms in the village were I lived throughout the Summer-holidays. We even had prepared a special room in the cellar. Why shoudn't our man not know this while working for Boeing & obviously having more information than the ususal citizen as his articles prove. I could imagine that Boeing at Seattle was a possible target. I mean, if I were living close to a military base I would move away as far as possible during such a crisis. On "Crazy Ivan": "Elsewhere in the world, in April of 1962, 15 U.S. Jupiter missiles in Turkey become operational, on the border of the Soviet Union. All positions are reported "ready and manned" by U.S. personnel - ready to launch against the Soviet Union at any moment. The missiles are armed with 1.45 megaton warheads, 97 times the power of the atomic bomb dropped on Hiroshima. Fatality projections for each missile aim at one million civilians." So who was the lunetic? > And that his leaving Boeing just > then had something to do with the Cuban missile crisis? > That has been my question. Maybe his contract had just ended and they didn't want to renew it. > Or are you pointing out that his leaving Boing couldn't have had > anything to do with Cuba? > I just discovered the coincidence of quitting the job in September, the month of the Cuban Missile Crisis which has been the first major political event I can remember (the second was Nov. 22, 1963) because all the grown-ups were talking about a possible nuclear war. The Russians were about to attack us, driving their panzers on our beautiful autobahns, raping all the women, forcing the men and boys to Siberian slave labor and taking away all the watches. I did not want to give away my watch. > Or that the Russians moved into Cuba because that pesky Pynchon was > finally out of the way? > > Mark > That's the best solution I could think of but I fear it's just a dream. Otto From pynchonoid at yahoo.com Sat Aug 28 13:27:34 2004 From: pynchonoid at yahoo.com (pynchonoid) Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2004 11:27:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 'Togetherness' In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040828182734.83099.qmail@web40710.mail.yahoo.com> > I suppose the notion that Pynchon was working at > Boeing for a paycheck is > simply beyond the pale. I expect he had multiple reasons for taking the job; I don't know enough about his biography to know if he got help from family or friends to support himself while writing, or if he had to do that all on his own. What he learned at Boeing has a direct impact on V., GR, and COL49. It would be interesting to know if he came to Boeing with the idea to write about the V-2 already in mind, or if that was something that came to mind after he got to Boeing. On a related topic, I assume Pynchon joined the Navy at least in part to get out in the world and gather experience to inform his creative writing, recognizing that he may have had additional reasons. Given the way he works details of military life into his earliest published work, I think it's safe to say he went in with the intent to write about it. Of course I don't know that from the horse's mouth, and it doesn't exclude the possibility that he had other reasons for enlisting. > Visit KM art's web site at > http://www.execpc.com/~artkm/ Nice site. Sounds like you may be in Dave Monroe's neck of the woods. ===== http://pynchonoid.org "everything connects" __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From mwaia at yahoo.com Sat Aug 28 13:59:05 2004 From: mwaia at yahoo.com (Mark Wright AIA) Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2004 11:59:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 'Togetherness' In-Reply-To: <20040828182734.83099.qmail@web40710.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20040828185905.24915.qmail@web13825.mail.yahoo.com> Harrr, 'e was off after his own White Whale --- what 'grand hooded phantom' might have drifted through his dreams? Funny tha' submarines don't play much more than a comic role in 'is boooks, i'nt'i? When was the first nuclear missile sub launched? Maybe if he'd have joined the work force a few years later he'd have gone to work for Electric Boat in Groton CT rather than Boeing in Seattle. Mark --- pynchonoid wrote: > On a related topic, I assume Pynchon joined the Navy > at least in part to get out in the world and gather > experience to inform his creative writing, recognizing > that he may have had additional reasons. Given the way > he works details of military life into his earliest > published work, I think it's safe to say he went in > with the intent to write about it. Of course I don't > know that from the horse's mouth, and it doesn't > exclude the possibility that he had other reasons for > enlisting. _______________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Win 1 of 4,000 free domain names from Yahoo! Enter now. http://promotions.yahoo.com/goldrush From monropolitan at yahoo.com Sat Aug 28 14:12:29 2004 From: monropolitan at yahoo.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2004 12:12:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 'Togetherness' In-Reply-To: <20040828182734.83099.qmail@web40710.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20040828191229.88702.qmail@web50702.mail.yahoo.com> Hell, he was in my neck of the Circle A at Chambers and Weil last night. Hey, Kent, scooter rally at The Foundation this afternoon/evening (band @ 7:30, reminds me, I gotta run so's tehy can run power outta my place), Tiki barbecue of course tomorrow, and keep me abreast of any other events of interest. But, yeah, it's all about the Washingtons for me ... --- pynchonoid wrote: > > > Visit KM art's web site at > > http://www.execpc.com/~artkm/ > > Nice site. Sounds like you may be in Dave Monroe's > neck of the woods. _______________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Win 1 of 4,000 free domain names from Yahoo! Enter now. http://promotions.yahoo.com/goldrush From monropolitan at yahoo.com Sat Aug 28 14:46:31 2004 From: monropolitan at yahoo.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2004 12:46:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Togetherness "Center of Gravity" Message-ID: <20040828194631.93295.qmail@web50709.mail.yahoo.com> "The next thing is to decide where to put what in the cargo spaces. To have a safe flight, the center of gravity of the plane must stay between certain body stations. Almost always there is extra freight, like batteries and test sets, to be sent along with missiles and airfoils...." (Togetherness) "the center of gravity" The center of gravity is a geometric property of any object. The center of gravity is the average location of the weight of an object. We can completely describe the motion of any object through space in terms of the translation of the center of gravity of the object from one place to another, and the rotation of the object about its center of gravity if it is free to rotate. If the object is confined to rotate about some other point, like a hinge, we can still describe its motion. In flight, both airplanes and rockets rotate about their centers of gravity. A kite, on the other hand, rotates about the bridle point. But the trim of a kite still depends on the location of the center of gravity relative to the bridle point, because for every object the weight always acts through the center of gravity. Determining the center of gravity is very important for any flying object. How do engineers determine the location of the center of gravity for an aircraft which they are designing? In general, determining the center of gravity (cg) is a complicated procedure because the mass (and weight) may not be uniformly distributed throughout the object. The general case requires the use of calculus which we will discuss at the bottom of this page. If the mass is uniformly distributed, the problem is greatly simplified.... [...] If the mass of the object is not uniformly distributed, we can characterize the mass distribution by a function w(x) which indicates that the weight is some function of distance x from a reference line. If we can determine the form of the function, there are methods to perform a calculus integration of the equation. We will use the symbols "S[ ]dx" to denote the integration of a continuous function. Then the center of gravity can be determined from: cg = (S[x * w(x)]dx) / (S[w(x)]dx) If we don't know the actual functional form, we can numerically integrate the equation using a spreadsheet by dividing the distance into a number of small distance segments and determining the average value of the mass (or weight) over that small segment. Taking the sum of the average value times the distance times the distance segment divided by the sum of the average value times the distance segment will produce the center of gravity. http://www.grc.nasa.gov/WWW/K-12/airplane/cg.html And see as well ... http://www.grc.nasa.gov/WWW/K-12/airplane/forces.html Recall, e.g., ... "In the static space of the architect, double integral now and then, early in his career, to find volumes under surfaces whose equations were known-masses, mo- ments, centers of gravity. But it's been years since he's had to do with anything that basic." (GR, p. 301) "The double integral stood in Etzel Olsch's subconscious for the method of finding hidden centers, inertias unknown, as if monoliths had been left for him...." (GR, p. 302) "Perhaps, because the Rocket coming down was lighter by lo tons of fuel and oxidizer, the shift in the center of gravity was making it unstable." (GR, p. 424) "We need not dwell here on the Primary Problem [...] except to emphasize to to beginning students who may be prone to Schwarmerei, that terms referring to the Subimipolexity such as 'Core' and 'Center of Internal Energy' possess, outside the theoretical, no more ... than do terms such as 'Supersonic Region' or 'Center of Gravity' in other areas of Science) ..." (GR, p. 700) __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From monropolitan at yahoo.com Sat Aug 28 14:50:24 2004 From: monropolitan at yahoo.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2004 12:50:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Togetherness "'Tomato' Dollies" Message-ID: <20040828195024.25828.qmail@web50708.mail.yahoo.com> "The loading trailers here at Seattle -- referred to, for some obscure reason, as 'tomato' dollies -- are smaller and lighter than those in use at the other end. This makes for speed and safety in loading, since less strain is put on the loading gear." (Togetherness) "'tomato' dollies" Main Entry: dol�ly Pronunciation: 'd�-lE, 'do-lE Function: noun Inflected Form(s): plural dollies 1 : DOLL 2 : a wooden-pronged instrument for beating and stirring clothes in the process of washing them in a tub 3 : a compact narrow-gauge railroad locomotive for moving construction trains and for switching 4 a : a platform on a roller or on wheels or casters for moving heavy objects b : a wheeled platform for a television or motion-picture camera http://m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=dolly "Obscure," indeed. Why "tomato"? Let me know ... __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From artkm at execpc.com Sat Aug 28 17:11:24 2004 From: artkm at execpc.com (kent mueller) Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2004 17:11:24 -0500 Subject: 'Togetherness' In-Reply-To: <20040828182734.83099.qmail@web40710.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Thanks for the comps on the site, and yup, as Dave responded before I could, he and I cross paths at least once or twice a week here in the secret hip stronghold of Milwaukee (vast Williamsburg of the West). Most recently last night in a lovely bar where the TV sets are always set to static between stations. I didn't mean to be flip about P's employment at Boeing, certainly all writers make hay from whatever they encounter, and it's a world full of odd coincidences to be sure, just meant that once he had a degree there wasn't much need to spend the summer working on a Long Island road crew again! Was his progression Cornell - Navy - Boeing or Navy - Cornell - Boeing? And I do wonder how he supported himself between Boeing and the publication of V. Kent Visit KM art's web site at http://www.execpc.com/~artkm/ > From: pynchonoid > Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2004 11:27:34 -0700 (PDT) > To: pynchon-l at waste.org > Subject: Re: 'Togetherness' > >> I suppose the notion that Pynchon was working at >> Boeing for a paycheck is >> simply beyond the pale. > > I expect he had multiple reasons for taking the job; I > don't know enough about his biography to know if he > got help from family or friends to support himself > while writing, or if he had to do that all on his own. > What he learned at Boeing has a direct impact on V., > GR, and COL49. It would be interesting to know if he > came to Boeing with the idea to write about the V-2 > already in mind, or if that was something that came to > mind after he got to Boeing. > > On a related topic, I assume Pynchon joined the Navy > at least in part to get out in the world and gather > experience to inform his creative writing, recognizing > that he may have had additional reasons. Given the way > he works details of military life into his earliest > published work, I think it's safe to say he went in > with the intent to write about it. Of course I don't > know that from the horse's mouth, and it doesn't > exclude the possibility that he had other reasons for > enlisting. > >> Visit KM art's web site at >> http://www.execpc.com/~artkm/ > > Nice site. Sounds like you may be in Dave Monroe's > neck of the woods. > > > ===== > http://pynchonoid.org > "everything connects" > > > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage! > http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail > > > _____________________________________________________ > This message scanned for viruses by CoreComm > From jbor at bigpond.com Sat Aug 28 20:05:12 2004 From: jbor at bigpond.com (jbor) Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2004 11:05:12 +1000 Subject: 'Togetherness' In-Reply-To: <20040828182734.83099.qmail@web40710.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: In the _SL_ 'Intro' Pynchon actually tells us that he didn't embark on the journeyman "phase of the business" until after the publication of _V._ (22), so suppositions that he was working "underground" at Boeing (amusing as that one is) or that he joined the navy with the intent to write about the experience are at odds with the available autobiographical information. The primary evidence afforded by the 'Togetherness' article also refutes the former claim. I'm also not sure what the Cuban missile crisis has to do with the 'Togetherness' article (published in December 1960). However, I agree that it's quite possible, on the strength of the negative references to JFK in the 'Intro' (11, 14) and elsewhere, and the satiric representation of Yoyodyne in _Lot 49_, that one reason that Pynchon left Boeing finally was because he wasn't particularly enamoured of the directions US foreign policy was taking at the time and because he had come to recognise the complicity of corporations like Boeing. While Pynchon does draw on his life and career experiences, as a kid, in the navy, at Cornell, on the road crew, at Boeing etc etc in his fiction, the claim that he entered into those vocations with the "intent" to write about them is putting the cart before the horse in my opinion. http://www.themodernword.com/pynchon/pynchon_essays_together.html best on 28/8/04 11:09 AM, jbor wrote: > It's an article written by a paid employee for a corporate newsletter > to augment the operation manual. It's written in a light and breezy way to > make a dull topic more interesting -- and, more overtly, to foreground the > potential for "tragedy" in a context where the safety record is 100% clear, > i.e. to address a potential complacency issue -- so that the target audience > (Boeing employees involved in the airlift operation) will actually read it > and benefit from the practical, "common sense" safety advice it > incorporates. > > As well as jazzing up a dull topic, I'd say that it's far more likely that > the slightly facetious tone Pynchon employs in a couple of spots in the > article actually *downplays* whatever ideological demurs it might be > speculated he held about US militarisation or nuclear weaponry at the time. > In fact, on the strength of his *choice* of employment with Boeing the more > logical speculation is that he *didn't* hold any such demurs at the time. > > The express concern in the article is about accidents and loss of life > amongst Boeing employees and US military personnel, not about blowing up > people and places on the other side of the world. NB that in describing one > of those "near misses" which exemplify the purpose of the article, Pynchon > is emphatic that there were "no explosions ... because explosive items like > squibs and initiators are shipped separately". That missiles = explosions is > not the issue. The article is providding practical advice about how to > airlift the Bomarc missile safely, so that accidents are avoided in the > loading and offloading phases of transporting the missile from Boeing to the > Air Force base. The aim of the text is to maintain the current good domestic > transportation record so that the US Armed Forces *can* continue to bomb the > crap out of anyone they like. > > The pun in the title of the article is on working "together" -- both the > "positive communication" between members of the crews at either end of the > airlift (interestingly, as well as referring to the "in-group" communication > between the human workers Pynchon talks about "communication" between the > supervisors and the equipment they are using, which pre-empts or echoes the > predominant animate-inanimate theme in _V._ in particular), and the Boeing > corporation and the US Air Force continuing to work together cohesively (and > productively) -- and on people like "Smith" and the tarmac supervisors at > either end "keeping their heads together", so to speak, while the loading > and unloading is going on. From monropolitan at yahoo.com Sun Aug 29 08:34:11 2004 From: monropolitan at yahoo.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2004 06:34:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Togetherness "Now Don't Everybody Yell at Once" Message-ID: <20040829133411.52515.qmail@web50701.mail.yahoo.com> "Now don't everybody yell at once." (Togetherness) Oh, what the hell, go right ahead, it's so quiet ... _______________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Win 1 of 4,000 free domain names from Yahoo! Enter now. http://promotions.yahoo.com/goldrush From monropolitan at yahoo.com Sun Aug 29 08:32:54 2004 From: monropolitan at yahoo.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2004 06:32:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Togetherness "An Ordinary Traffic Signal" Message-ID: <20040829133254.33815.qmail@web50708.mail.yahoo.com> "Positive, error-proof communication between load-master and anchor winch is provided at onloadings by a three-light system which looks like an ordinary traffic signal. Red means 'stop,' green means 'wind in cable,' amber means 'let out cable.' One big advantage is that the system works efficiently even around a high noise level area. And with '707s, B-52s, KC-135s and other heavies warming up, taxiing and taking off most of the time, that noise level can get pretty high." (Togetherness) "an ordinary traffic signal" The first crude traffic light was a manually operated gas lantern installed in London around 1868. The signal consisted of two colors -- red meant "stop," while green meant "caution." One day the lantern exploded and injured the policeman who was operating it. It was painfully obvious a more efficient traffic signal was needed. In 1920 Police Officer William Potts addressed the chaotic traffic of Detroit, Michigan, by co-opting the red, amber, and green automatic traffic light system used on railroads. Around the same time, the prolific African American inventor Garrett Morgan devised and patented the precursor to the automatic traffic lights we use today. Apparently the colors of red and green were standard in the electrical industry at the time. The makers of railroad signals and traffic lights simply adopted the familiar color scheme. We can really only speculate as to why these colors were originally used in the industry. An About.com entry on color symbolism points out that different colors evoke different emotions in humans. Red generally symbolizes danger or warning, making it a good choice for "stop." Green is calming to us, probably because it is prolific in nature and a sign of health and abundance, so it might have lent itself to mean "go." Curiously, yellow or amber, is associated with warmth, happiness, and the sun. Despite these connotations, it was chosen to symbolize "caution." Perhaps because it contrasts well with green and red, and is highly visible without being too harsh on the eyes of motorists. Today, yellow is commonly used as a warning symbol for both traffic signs and alert systems. http://ask.yahoo.com/ask/20031023.html And see as well ... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traffic_signal http://www.fact-index.com/t/tr/traffic_light.html "'707s, B-52s, KC-135s" Boeing 707 http://www.boeing.com/commercial/707family/ http://www.airliners.net/info/stats.main?id=87 http://www.aviation-history.com/boeing/707.html Boeing B-52 Stratofortress http://www.af.mil/factsheets/factsheet.asp?fsID=83 http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/usa/bomber/b-52.htm http://www.boeing.com/defense-space/military/b52-strat/b52info.html Boeing KC-135 Stratotanker http://www.af.mil/factsheets/factsheet.asp?fsID=110 http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/usa/bomber/kc-135r.htm http://www.boeing.com/defense-space/military/kc135-strat/kc135info.html __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From mwaia at yahoo.com Sun Aug 29 10:50:09 2004 From: mwaia at yahoo.com (Mark Wright AIA) Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2004 08:50:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 'Togetherness' In-Reply-To: <002201c48d2b$bfaccea0$0101a8c0@i7t2q2> Message-ID: <20040829155009.45651.qmail@web13807.mail.yahoo.com> Howdy Otto I know about the U.S. (our!) Jupiter missiles in Turkey. My use of the old nickname "Crazy Ivan" was intended to be light and ironic. If you didn't read it that way I'm sorry, I guess. In the "official" version of events Kennedy didn't learn about the missiles in Cuba until October 15, when he was shown U-2 overflight photos, which I presume must have been taken at least a day earlier. Are you sure of the dates of your childhood memories? I'm not sure of the dates of mine. My earliest genuine memories are of getting hit pretty hard with a belt by my dad because I threw a heavy oak stool at my little brother (and of always sitting at the table with my mom between me and dad thereafter), sledding down hill and busting my head on a concrete block buried in the snow, fighting with my younger brother over *my* tricycle (there was only one), Soupy Sales, the Kennedy Funeral, and of enormous waxed-cardboard cannisters of powdered eggs and powdered milk stacked in our kitchen. I can't attach dates to any of it. Weren't the "continuous alarms" you remember pretty much continuous back then? The atmosphere of crisis in Europe must have been quite high from the days of the Berlin airlift and before, and continued right on through the eighties, when that great song "99Luftballons" was such a big hit with the kids... Best Mark --- Otto wrote: > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Mark Wright AIA" > > Are you saying that Pynchon somehow knew that Crazy Ivan was > putting > > missiles into Cuba before Kennedy did? > > That was known quite a while before the actual September-crisis came. > I knew > that the Russians were about to deploy missiles close to the USA > because I > was a soldier's kid and there were continuous alarms in the village > were I > lived throughout the Summer-holidays. We even had prepared a special > room in > the cellar. > Why shoudn't our man not know this while working for Boeing & > obviously > having more information than the ususal citizen as his articles > prove. > > I could imagine that Boeing at Seattle was a possible target. I mean, > if I > were living close to a military base I would move away as far as > possible > during such a crisis. > > On "Crazy Ivan": > "Elsewhere in the world, in April of 1962, 15 U.S. Jupiter missiles > in > Turkey become operational, on the border of the Soviet Union. All > positions > are reported "ready and manned" by U.S. personnel - ready to launch > against > the Soviet Union at any moment. The missiles are armed with 1.45 > megaton > warheads, 97 times the power of the atomic bomb dropped on Hiroshima. > Fatality projections for each missile aim at one million civilians." > > So who was the lunetic? > > > And that his leaving Boeing just > > then had something to do with the Cuban missile crisis? > > > > That has been my question. Maybe his contract had just ended and they > didn't > want to renew it. > > > Or are you pointing out that his leaving Boing couldn't have had > > anything to do with Cuba? > > > > I just discovered the coincidence of quitting the job in September, > the > month of the Cuban Missile Crisis which has been the first major > political > event I can remember (the second was Nov. 22, 1963) because all the > grown-ups were talking about a possible nuclear war. The Russians > were about > to attack us, driving their panzers on our beautiful autobahns, > raping all > the women, forcing the men and boys to Siberian slave labor and > taking away > all the watches. I did not want to give away my watch. > > > Or that the Russians moved into Cuba because that pesky Pynchon was > > finally out of the way? > > > > Mark > > > > That's the best solution I could think of but I fear it's just a > dream. > > Otto > > _______________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Express yourself with Y! Messenger! Free. Download now. http://messenger.yahoo.com From monropolitan at yahoo.com Sun Aug 29 11:07:25 2004 From: monropolitan at yahoo.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2004 09:07:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Togetherness "Chain Robbins" Message-ID: <20040829160725.54720.qmail@web50707.mail.yahoo.com> "Chain Robbins, Safety Engineering Group Supervisor at Boeing, has put it this way: 'One of the most unpleasant things about this business is the day you suddenly realize that many of the safety codes the Air Force and Industry have were generated out of tragedy--someone killed, someone mangled for life. You might say one of the objectives of the safety movement, which got under way around 1911, is to generate codes from tests, studies of human reactions, statistical data, near misses, everything we can get, to prevent future tragedies from ever happening.'" (Togetherness) Chain Robbins E.g., ... OSHA Instruction STP 2-1.6 October 30, 1978 [...] Chain Robbins Deputy Assistant Secretary/Administrator [...] c. Date Presented by Project Officer to Final Review Board: (Board: Chain Robbins, Ben Mintz, Preston Farish) http://www.osha.gov/pls/oshaweb/owadisp.show_document?p_table=DIRECTIVES&p_id=1852 Also ... http://www.osha.gov/pls/oshaweb/owadisp.show_document?p_table=DIRECTIVES&p_id=1771 M CHAIN ROBBINS MEMORIAL SCHOLARSHIP To be awarded to a full-time returning student showing financial need. Financial need is primary consideration but student need not meet federal guidelines for need. http://www-sfa.chubb.ohiou.edu/cgi-win/scholar.exe/DETAILS/3477 An Introduction to the PNS-AIHA The PNS-AIHA is a regional section of the American Industrial Hygiene Association (AIHA). The AIHA is a professional society of persons dedicated to the prevention of workplace-related illness or injury that may affect the health or well-being of workers or the community. With more than 12,000 members, AIHA is the largest international association serving the needs of occupational and environmental health professionals practicing industrial hygiene in industry, government, labor, academic institutions, and independent organizations. Past Presidents R. N. Scott (1956); K. Skillern (1957); M. Chain Robbins (1958) ... http://www.pnsaiha.org/Documents/about_us.htm And see as well ... http://members.aol.com/_ht_a/detles1/myhomepage/ "the safety movement" Two events that dramatically affected saftey progress: Triangle Shirtwaist Company fire in New York City (1911) .... This disaster resulted ina great public outcry over the failure of man's [sic] responsibility to foresee and prevent tragedy. [...] First worker compensation law passed by Wisconsin Legislature--1911 .... [...] Employers found it a compelling finacial incentive to PREVENT accidents .... http://www.ux1.eiu.edu/~cfrec1/safehist.ppt _______________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Win 1 of 4,000 free domain names from Yahoo! Enter now. http://promotions.yahoo.com/goldrush From vze422fs at verizon.net Sun Aug 29 11:55:24 2004 From: vze422fs at verizon.net (joeallonby) Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2004 12:55:24 -0400 Subject: "AN ARMY OF LOVERS CAN BE BEATEN." In-Reply-To: <20040828165843.96130.qmail@web40702.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I await Glenn's reaction to this with bated breath. on 8/28/04 12:58 PM, pynchonoid at pynchonoid at yahoo.com wrote: > Brooklyn Orgastic Politics Collective: > > "Imagine the Republican delegates so consumed in > fucking and sucking that they forget to nominate > Bush.... On Thursday, September 2nd, for several hours > prior to and during George Bush?s re-nomination > ceremony, the Brooklyn Orgastic Politics Collective > (BOP-C) will be conducting Orgone operations with > several of our Cloudbusters, attempting to suck the > fascism from the Republican National Convention at > Madison Square Garden.? From an undisclosed location > on the Brooklyn waterfront, we will be redirecting the > flow of Life Energy above the deadly concentrations > of hatred and greed accumulating in midtown > Manhattan.? If indeed our theories prove correct, it > may be possible to reduce the entire convention floor > to a quivering Saturnalia.?? The moans of Love shall > ring out across the Land!" > http://www.bopcollective.org/ > > > > ===== > http://pynchonoid.org > "everything connects" > > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers! > http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From mittelwerk at hotmail.com Sun Aug 29 11:57:37 2004 From: mittelwerk at hotmail.com (Joel Katz) Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2004 12:57:37 -0400 Subject: "AN ARMY OF LOVERS CAN BE BEATEN." Message-ID: well, i don't know about no saturnalia, but i do know that i'm going to plant my ass at the bar in the sheraton and try to score some fine, red-skirted, hysterical beltway-blonde delegate pussy. >From: joeallonby >To: pynchonoid , Pynchon-L >Subject: Re: "AN ARMY OF LOVERS CAN BE BEATEN." >Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2004 12:55:24 -0400 > >I await Glenn's reaction to this with bated breath. > >on 8/28/04 12:58 PM, pynchonoid at pynchonoid at yahoo.com wrote: > > > Brooklyn Orgastic Politics Collective: > > > > "Imagine the Republican delegates so consumed in > > fucking and sucking that they forget to nominate > > Bush.... On Thursday, September 2nd, for several hours > > prior to and during George Bush?s re-nomination > > ceremony, the Brooklyn Orgastic Politics Collective > > (BOP-C) will be conducting Orgone operations with > > several of our Cloudbusters, attempting to suck the > > fascism from the Republican National Convention at > > Madison Square Garden.? From an undisclosed location > > on the Brooklyn waterfront, we will be redirecting the > > flow of Life Energy above the deadly concentrations > > of hatred and greed accumulating in midtown > > Manhattan.? If indeed our theories prove correct, it > > may be possible to reduce the entire convention floor > > to a quivering Saturnalia.?? The moans of Love shall > > ring out across the Land!" > > http://www.bopcollective.org/ > > > > > > > > ===== > > http://pynchonoid.org > > "everything connects" > > > > > > > > __________________________________ > > Do you Yahoo!? > > Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers! > > http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail > > > > _________________________________________________________________ On the road to retirement? Check out MSN Life Events for advice on how to get there! http://lifeevents.msn.com/category.aspx?cid=Retirement From KXX4493553 at aol.com Sun Aug 29 13:41:30 2004 From: KXX4493553 at aol.com (KXX4493553 at aol.com) Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2004 14:41:30 EDT Subject: FWD: Nazi and East German Propaganda Guide Page Message-ID: Nazi and East German Propaganda Guide Page http://www.calvin.edu/academic/cas/gpa/index.htm Propaganda was central to Nazi Germany and the German Democratic Republic. The German Propaganda Archive includes both propaganda itself and material produced for the guidance of propagandists. The goal is to help people understand the two great totalitarian systems of the twentieth century by giving them access to the primary material. kwp -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From monropolitan at yahoo.com Sun Aug 29 13:57:53 2004 From: monropolitan at yahoo.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2004 11:57:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: "AN ARMY OF LOVERS CAN BE BEATEN." In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040829185753.23442.qmail@web50701.mail.yahoo.com> No puns where none intended (emphasis added) ... --- joeallonby wrote: > I await Glenn's reaction to this with BATED breath. _______________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Win 1 of 4,000 free domain names from Yahoo! Enter now. http://promotions.yahoo.com/goldrush From monropolitan at yahoo.com Sun Aug 29 14:11:52 2004 From: monropolitan at yahoo.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2004 12:11:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Togetherness "The IM-99A Missile" Message-ID: <20040829191152.15496.qmail@web50710.mail.yahoo.com> http://www.radomes.org/museum/MissBOMARC.jpg http://home.att.net/~ferguspcj/mbomarc/bomarc.htm http://home.att.net/~ferguspcj/mbomarc/bomarc01.htm http://home.att.net/~ferguspcj/mbomarc/mboma045.jpg http://home.att.net/~ferguspcj/mbomarc/mb50_150.jpg http://www.hilltoptimes.com/Images/story_photos/bomarc.jpg http://www.sorac.org/images_Hanger_2002/Miss%20Bomarc.JPG.html --- Dave Monroe wrote: > "Airlifting the IM-99A missile, like marriage, > demands a certain amount of 'togetherness' between > Air Force and contractor." (Togetherness) > > > "the IM-99A missile" > > The supersonic Bomarc missiles (IM-99A and IM-99B) > were the world's first long-range anti-aircraft > missiles, and the first missiles that Boeing mass > produced.... > > http://www.boeing.com/history/boeing/bomarc.html > > The Bomarc was the only surface-to-air missile ever > deployed by the U.S. Air Force. All other U.S. > land-based SAMs were and are under the control of > the U.S. Army.... > > http://www.designation-systems.net/dusrm/m-10.html __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From monropolitan at yahoo.com Sun Aug 29 14:13:20 2004 From: monropolitan at yahoo.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2004 12:13:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Togetherness "Yet" Message-ID: <20040829191320.9718.qmail@web50705.mail.yahoo.com> "There has never been a tragedy on any Bomarc airlift. Yet." (Togetherness) "Yet" No. 20, June 7, 1960/BOMARC/McGuire Air Force Base, [near Trenton,] New Jersey A BOMARC air defense missile in ready storage condition (permitting launch in two minutes) was destroyed by explosion and fire after a high pressure helium tank exploded and ruptured the missile's fuel tanks. The warhead was also destroyed by the fire although the high explosive did not detonate. Nuclear safety devices acted as designed. Contamination was restricted to an area immediately beneath the weapon and an adjacent elongated area approximately 100 feet long, caused by drain-off of the firefighting water. CDI: The BOMARC missile was one of the 56 housed at the 46th Air Defense Missile Squadron in Jackson Township, N.J., ten miles east of McGuire Air Force Base. Each missile was housed in a separate concrete and steel shelter. The BOMARC had earned a reputation as a dangerous weapon system. The New York Times reported the 47-foot missile "melted under an intense blaze fed by its 100-pound detonator TNT...THe atomic warhead apparently dropped into the molten mass that was left of the missile, which burned for forty-five minutes." The radiation "had been caused when thoriated magnesium metal which forms part of the weapon, caught fire,... the metal, already radioactive, becomes highly radioactive when it is burned." [interesting but faulty analysis - MILNET] http://www.milnet.com/cdiart.htm And see as well ... http://www.cpeo.org/lists/military/2004/msg00545.html But apparently still no airlift accidents. Yet ... __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Address AutoComplete - You start. We finish. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From ottosell at yahoo.de Sun Aug 29 15:36:38 2004 From: ottosell at yahoo.de (Otto) Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2004 22:36:38 +0200 Subject: 'Togetherness' References: <20040829155009.45651.qmail@web13807.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <005001c48e07$e39c40c0$0101a8c0@i7t2q2> Mark, I only wanted to point to the fact that the Soviets (let's drop the word Russians) weren't the only ones making the mistake of believing that threatening the world with such a danger would ensure the peace. Pynchon speaks of the "succession of criminal insane" and I deeply share this opinion, not pointing to one side only. As you say it's the "official" version of history. I'd bet that Kennedy knew shortly after Khrushchev had decided to give an answer to the nuclear threat on his southern front that Khrushchev had indeed taken that risky decision in May 1962, and I'm sure that Kennedy was sure that Khrushchev would do so before he'd put those US-rockets to Turkey. "On October 22, 1962, Soviet Colonel Oleg Penkovsky is arrested in the Soviet Union. From April 1961, Penkovsky has been a spy for British and U.S. intelligence services, providing them with material on Soviet military capabilities, including important technical information on Soviet MRBM and ICBM programs." http://www.marxists.org/history/cuba/subject/missile-crisis/ch03.htm It was a logical step that Khrushchev would try it. But Cuba could be isolated easily, and Khrushchev turned the ships around finally (luckily). About the dates of my childhood memories I'm quite sure. There hasn't been such a tensely atmosphere before and my parents never have prepared a room downstairs again. Or do you remember a situation any time later when the US and the Soviets were so close at each others throats again? We were nailed to the tube watching the evening news, and when my dad came back from his 48 hours shifts on the airfield early in the morning he rested in the living room to listen to the radio-news because the only TV-channel was broadcasting only from the late afternoon on. No, I don't think that there has been such a concrete fear later. Later we knew that the nuclear balance was just "deterrence," that the politicians and generals had finally understood that no side would win a nuclear war. Have you ever been really afraid of a possible nuclear war later? I was not. There have been so many crises, the USA in Vietnam, the Russians in Afghanistan, Angola. The military-industrial complex who benefited from the ongoing "alarm" would have destroyed itself so the wars were shifted to the Third World; substitute wars on a lower level excluding a direct USA-UDSSR confrontation. On Nena and "99Luftballons" I admit that I've played that song too during my active time as a dj, but I've never been a big fan of her. I liked Nina Hagen's music more. On the question of the date I know that the most likely answer is that simply Pynchon's contract had ended. But I'm sure he wasn't unhappy about it. Otto ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark Wright AIA" To: Sent: Sunday, August 29, 2004 5:50 PM Subject: Re: 'Togetherness' > Howdy Otto > I know about the U.S. (our!) Jupiter missiles in Turkey. My use of the > old nickname "Crazy Ivan" was intended to be light and ironic. If you > didn't read it that way I'm sorry, I guess. > > In the "official" version of events Kennedy didn't learn about the > missiles in Cuba until October 15, when he was shown U-2 overflight > photos, which I presume must have been taken at least a day earlier. > Are you sure of the dates of your childhood memories? I'm not sure of > the dates of mine. My earliest genuine memories are of getting hit > pretty hard with a belt by my dad because I threw a heavy oak stool at > my little brother (and of always sitting at the table with my mom > between me and dad thereafter), sledding down hill and busting my head > on a concrete block buried in the snow, fighting with my younger > brother over *my* tricycle (there was only one), Soupy Sales, the > Kennedy Funeral, and of enormous waxed-cardboard cannisters of powdered > eggs and powdered milk stacked in our kitchen. > > I can't attach dates to any of it. Weren't the "continuous alarms" you > remember pretty much continuous back then? The atmosphere of crisis in > Europe must have been quite high from the days of the Berlin airlift > and before, and continued right on through the eighties, when that > great song "99Luftballons" was such a big hit with the kids... > Best > Mark > From monropolitan at yahoo.com Sun Aug 29 16:10:37 2004 From: monropolitan at yahoo.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2004 14:10:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 'Togetherness' In-Reply-To: <005001c48e07$e39c40c0$0101a8c0@i7t2q2> Message-ID: <20040829211037.57328.qmail@web50705.mail.yahoo.com> Just picked up ... Stern, Sheldon M. Averting 'The Final Failure': John F. Kennedy and the Secret Cuban Missile Crisis Meetings. Stanford, CA: Stanford UP, 2003. http://www.sup.org/cgi-bin/search/book_desc.cgi?book_id=4846%20 --- Otto wrote: > As you say it's the "official" version of history. And I've been known to spin "Nur Getraumt" myself, as well as "Wir Leben Immer Nach" ... __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From pynchonoid at yahoo.com Sun Aug 29 17:39:50 2004 From: pynchonoid at yahoo.com (pynchonoid) Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2004 15:39:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: "Togetherness" Message-ID: <20040829223950.74666.qmail@web40705.mail.yahoo.com> Whether or not Pynchon specifically sought out the job at Boeing, when he went to work there he was already at work on the novel that came to be titled V., according to archives (at the Wayback Machine) of Richard Lane's www.pynchonfiles.com -- a novel that features Yoyodyne and the V-2. Perhaps it's just a coincidence that Pynchon crossed the continental U.S. to take the job which just happened to give him a chance to be part of a support team for a missile not altogether unlike what he was writing about in his novel-in-progress. Then again, maybe he was able to network to and land the Boeing job as part of his ongoing research for V., research which seems to have spilled over into GR. ===== http://pynchonoid.org "everything connects" _______________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Win 1 of 4,000 free domain names from Yahoo! Enter now. http://promotions.yahoo.com/goldrush From keithsz at sbcglobal.net Sun Aug 29 17:51:13 2004 From: keithsz at sbcglobal.net (Keith McMullen) Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2004 15:51:13 -0700 Subject: "Togetherness" In-Reply-To: <20040829223950.74666.qmail@web40705.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20040829223950.74666.qmail@web40705.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: >>> Perhaps it's just a coincidence . . . Then again, maybe . . . <<< One thing we know for certain is that Pynchon has chosen not to give us this info. From pynchonoid at yahoo.com Sun Aug 29 18:40:49 2004 From: pynchonoid at yahoo.com (pynchonoid) Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2004 16:40:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: "Togetherness" In-Reply-To: <20040829223950.74666.qmail@web40705.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20040829234049.10347.qmail@web40703.mail.yahoo.com> Thanks for digging up the Miss Bomarc stuff, Dave. Reminds me of the various trade show queens and "booth girls" my father and his colleagues used to come up with to grace their industry trade shows and fairs back in the late '50s, early '60s. Meanwhile, adding what was lost in my botched editing of this post before I hit Send: --- pynchonoid wrote: > Whether or not Pynchon specifically sought out the > job > at Boeing in order to do research on missiles >when he went to work there he was already > at work on the novel that came to be titled V., > according to archives (at the Wayback Machine) of > Richard Lane's www.pynchonfiles.com -- a novel that > features Yoyodyne and the V-2. Perhaps it's just a > coincidence that Pynchon crossed the continental > U.S. > to take the job which just happened to give him a > chance to be part of a support team for a missile > not > altogether unlike what he was writing about in his > novel-in-progress. Then again, maybe he was able to > network to and land the Boeing job as part of his > ongoing research for V., research which seems to > have > spilled over into GR. > Finally -- Keith, thanks very much for noting how carefully I hedged my bets re the rank speculation contained in this post. Given the facts on the record, I don't think you have to go very far out on a limb to assume that Pynchon, pockets jingling thanks to the advance he was paid for his first novel, went looking for an opportunity to find out more about rockets and found it in a writing job at Boeing, but of course you're correct, Pynchon hasn't told us this specifically. ===== http://pynchonoid.org "everything connects" __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From vze422fs at verizon.net Sun Aug 29 19:51:11 2004 From: vze422fs at verizon.net (joeallonby) Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2004 20:51:11 -0400 Subject: "Togetherness" In-Reply-To: <20040829234049.10347.qmail@web40703.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: At the risk of putting the cart before the chicken here, might his ability to write about rockets been an important qualification for pretty cool cushy job in the aerospace/defense industry? on 8/29/04 7:40 PM, pynchonoid at pynchonoid at yahoo.com wrote: > Thanks for digging up the Miss Bomarc stuff, Dave. > Reminds me of the various trade show queens and "booth > girls" my father and his colleagues used to come up > with to grace their industry trade shows and fairs > back in the late '50s, early '60s. > > Meanwhile, adding what was lost in my botched editing > of this post before I hit Send: > > --- pynchonoid wrote: >> Whether or not Pynchon specifically sought out the >> job >> at Boeing > > in order to do research on missiles > >> when he went to work there he was already >> at work on the novel that came to be titled V., >> according to archives (at the Wayback Machine) of >> Richard Lane's www.pynchonfiles.com -- a novel that >> features Yoyodyne and the V-2. Perhaps it's just a >> coincidence that Pynchon crossed the continental >> U.S. >> to take the job which just happened to give him a >> chance to be part of a support team for a missile >> not >> altogether unlike what he was writing about in his >> novel-in-progress. Then again, maybe he was able to >> network to and land the Boeing job as part of his >> ongoing research for V., research which seems to >> have >> spilled over into GR. >> > > Finally -- Keith, thanks very much for noting how > carefully I hedged my bets re the rank speculation > contained in this post. Given the facts on the record, > I don't think you have to go very far out on a limb to > assume that Pynchon, pockets jingling thanks to the > advance he was paid for his first novel, went looking > for an opportunity to find out more about rockets and > found it in a writing job at Boeing, but of course > you're correct, Pynchon hasn't told us this > specifically. > > > > ===== > http://pynchonoid.org > "everything connects" > > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers! > http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From mwaia at yahoo.com Sun Aug 29 21:57:21 2004 From: mwaia at yahoo.com (Mark Wright AIA) Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2004 19:57:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 'Togetherness' In-Reply-To: <005001c48e07$e39c40c0$0101a8c0@i7t2q2> Message-ID: <20040830025721.52540.qmail@web13824.mail.yahoo.com> Howdy Otto I've always lived in places that would be incinerated in the first half-hour of a nuclear war, and hoped it wouldn't hurt much. I figured that it would be a better idea to prepare a lawn-chair than a bunker in the basement. But I concede I never felt that this abstract Effing Fist of God was about to strike during any special crisis. I'm pretty sure that "peace" was not what was wanted by many interests on either side of the cold war. Continuous managable conflict and "victory" were the order of the day. M.A.D. doctrine wasn't intended to keep peace but to manage conflict and turn a damned handsome buck in the process. How much is different today? There is neither a Missile nor a Mine-shaft Gap to worry about, so we sorry about Proliferation instead and wring our hands. The Soviets cashed in an exhausted ideology and tried to board the gravy train. Many fell beneath the wheels. Another ideology has taken the stage and we still have lots of dangerous shit to worry about and make worse. Fear is still effective politics. Managable conflict is still as good for business as high-but-stable oil prices, private militia, and untethered capital. Money is still power, power is still an aphrodesiac, and the television is still a Glass Teat. I should have been on the streets across the river today. Air America says Reuters puts the number marching today in Manhattan at some 400,000. We just spent ten days Drifting in the High Plains of eastern Wyoming, the Black Hills and Badlands of South Dakota, and the mountains of Colorado --- and in ten days of watching for them we saw three (count 'em! three!) Bush bumperstickers. I think this is hopeful. We looked on the roads, and in parking areas. It seems that few are particularly anxious to be seen as Bush Boosters even where his victory seems assured. hope hope hope fingers crossed Mark --- Otto wrote: > Mark, > > I only wanted to point to the fact that the Soviets (let's drop the > word > Russians) weren't the only ones making the mistake of believing that > threatening the world with such a danger would ensure the peace. > Pynchon > speaks of the "succession of criminal insane" and I deeply share this > opinion, not pointing to one side only. > > As you say it's the "official" version of history. I'd bet that > Kennedy knew > shortly after Khrushchev had decided to give an answer to the nuclear > threat > on his southern front that Khrushchev had indeed taken that risky > decision > in May 1962, and I'm sure that Kennedy was sure that Khrushchev would > do so > before he'd put those US-rockets to Turkey. > > "On October 22, 1962, Soviet Colonel Oleg Penkovsky is arrested in > the > Soviet Union. From April 1961, Penkovsky has been a spy for British > and U.S. > intelligence services, providing them with material on Soviet > military > capabilities, including important technical information on Soviet > MRBM and > ICBM programs." > http://www.marxists.org/history/cuba/subject/missile-crisis/ch03.htm > > It was a logical step that Khrushchev would try it. But Cuba could be > isolated easily, and Khrushchev turned the ships around finally > (luckily). > > About the dates of my childhood memories I'm quite sure. There hasn't > been > such a tensely atmosphere before and my parents never have prepared a > room > downstairs again. Or do you remember a situation any time later when > the US > and the Soviets were so close at each others throats again? We were > nailed > to the tube watching the evening news, and when my dad came back from > his > 48 hours shifts on the airfield early in the morning he rested in the > living > room to listen to the radio-news because the only TV-channel was > broadcasting only from the late afternoon on. > > No, I don't think that there has been such a concrete fear later. > Later we > knew that the nuclear balance was just "deterrence," that the > politicians > and generals had finally understood that no side would win a nuclear > war. > Have you ever been really afraid of a possible nuclear war later? I > was not. > There have been so many crises, the USA in Vietnam, the Russians in > Afghanistan, Angola. The military-industrial complex who benefited > from the > ongoing "alarm" would have destroyed itself so the wars were shifted > to the > Third World; substitute wars on a lower level excluding a direct > USA-UDSSR > confrontation. > > On Nena and "99Luftballons" I admit that I've played that song too > during my > active time as a dj, but I've never been a big fan of her. I liked > Nina > Hagen's music more. > > On the question of the date I know that the most likely answer is > that > simply Pynchon's contract had ended. But I'm sure he wasn't unhappy > about it. > > Otto > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Mark Wright AIA" > To: > Sent: Sunday, August 29, 2004 5:50 PM > Subject: Re: 'Togetherness' > > > > Howdy Otto > > I know about the U.S. (our!) Jupiter missiles in Turkey. My use of > the > > old nickname "Crazy Ivan" was intended to be light and ironic. If > you > > didn't read it that way I'm sorry, I guess. > > > > In the "official" version of events Kennedy didn't learn about the > > missiles in Cuba until October 15, when he was shown U-2 overflight > > photos, which I presume must have been taken at least a day > earlier. > > Are you sure of the dates of your childhood memories? I'm not sure > of > > the dates of mine. My earliest genuine memories are of getting hit > > pretty hard with a belt by my dad because I threw a heavy oak stool > at > > my little brother (and of always sitting at the table with my mom > > between me and dad thereafter), sledding down hill and busting my > head > > on a concrete block buried in the snow, fighting with my younger > > brother over *my* tricycle (there was only one), Soupy Sales, the > > Kennedy Funeral, and of enormous waxed-cardboard cannisters of > powdered > > eggs and powdered milk stacked in our kitchen. > > > > I can't attach dates to any of it. Weren't the "continuous alarms" > you > > remember pretty much continuous back then? The atmosphere of crisis > in > > Europe must have been quite high from the days of the Berlin > airlift > > and before, and continued right on through the eighties, when that > > great song "99Luftballons" was such a big hit with the kids... > > Best > > Mark > > > > _______________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Win 1 of 4,000 free domain names from Yahoo! Enter now. http://promotions.yahoo.com/goldrush From WillLayman at comcast.net Sun Aug 29 22:32:06 2004 From: WillLayman at comcast.net (Will Layman) Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2004 23:32:06 -0400 Subject: NP: My humor on the web Message-ID: Dear Friends -- I've only been back among us for a week or so, but I thought you might still like to check out the idle labor of one of your own. This week I have two humorous pieces appearing different internet sites devoted to literary humor. The first is a monologue called "The Top Man in His Field." If you don't mind slew of cursing, you can read it at http://uber.nu on Monday, August 30th. After that day you can find it in the Uber archives. The second piece, "My Keynote Address to Tonight's Family Dinner" is for politics fans of all ages. It will appear this week (not sure which day yet) in "honor" of the Republican National Convention at: http://www.yankeepotroast.org Thanks for reading! -- Will Layman email: WillLayman at comcast.net Web site: http://home.comcast.net/~willlayman/wsb/html From vze422fs at verizon.net Mon Aug 30 01:04:16 2004 From: vze422fs at verizon.net (joeallonby) Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 02:04:16 -0400 Subject: 'Togetherness' In-Reply-To: <20040830025721.52540.qmail@web13824.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I spent some time in rural Colorado this summer myself. Didn't find many Bush supporters there either. The independent people of the American outback don't seem to have much faith in what they see on television. A lot of them don't even own one. This supposed stronghold of American conservatism and military tradition may just shock the draft dodging little wussie if he takes them for granted. They may love their guns and their country, but they love their sons in the Marine Corps and Air Force more. I've spent most of my life within the ring of Rte 128, America's Technology Highway. As the comedian Jimmy Tingle once said "Why not just paint targets in the parking lots?" When the missiles come, just pull up a lawn chair and hope for a good view of the fireworks. Now we have a different war. On of the largest liquefied natural gas terminals in the world is in Everett Massachusetts in one of the most densely populated areas of the United States. If that thing ever went up say goodbye to Everett, Revere, Somerville, Chelsea, Malden, Lynn, Nahant, Charlestown, and East Boston Massachusetts. I'd have to check the population figures to be sure, but that's close to a million people. Talk about being incinerated? 911 my ass! There is evidence that Al Queda was smuggling people into the U.S. aboard tankers going in to that very port. The terrorists had a Coast Guard and Boston Police escort. The mayor of Boston, with whom I disagree on many issues, has called for a moratorium on tankers going in to Everett unless there were drastic changes in security. He was to all intents and purposes ignored, but I have had to submit to searches of my tool bag on the subway. I might hijack an Orange Line train with my Allen wrenches. But Santa Claus forbid that we should interfere with the petrochemical industry when it brings the equivalent of a thermonuclear fusion bomb originating in the United Arab Emirates through Boston Harbor and up the Mystic River. That would be interfering with commerce. on 8/29/04 10:57 PM, Mark Wright AIA at mwaia at yahoo.com wrote: > Howdy Otto > > I've always lived in places that would be incinerated in the first > half-hour of a nuclear war, and hoped it wouldn't hurt much. I figured > that it would be a better idea to prepare a lawn-chair than a bunker in > the basement. But I concede I never felt that this abstract Effing Fist > of God was about to strike during any special crisis. > > I'm pretty sure that "peace" was not what was wanted by many interests > on either side of the cold war. Continuous managable conflict and > "victory" were the order of the day. M.A.D. doctrine wasn't intended to > keep peace but to manage conflict and turn a damned handsome buck in > the process. > > How much is different today? There is neither a Missile nor a > Mine-shaft Gap to worry about, so we sorry about Proliferation instead > and wring our hands. The Soviets cashed in an exhausted ideology and > tried to board the gravy train. Many fell beneath the wheels. Another > ideology has taken the stage and we still have lots of dangerous shit > to worry about and make worse. Fear is still effective politics. > Managable conflict is still as good for business as high-but-stable oil > prices, private militia, and untethered capital. Money is still power, > power is still an aphrodesiac, and the television is still a Glass > Teat. > > I should have been on the streets across the river today. Air America > says Reuters puts the number marching today in Manhattan at some > 400,000. > > We just spent ten days Drifting in the High Plains of eastern Wyoming, > the Black Hills and Badlands of South Dakota, and the mountains of > Colorado --- and in ten days of watching for them we saw three (count > 'em! three!) Bush bumperstickers. I think this is hopeful. We looked on > the roads, and in parking areas. It seems that few are particularly > anxious to be seen as Bush Boosters even where his victory seems > assured. > > hope hope hope > fingers crossed > Mark > > --- Otto wrote: > >> Mark, >> >> I only wanted to point to the fact that the Soviets (let's drop the >> word >> Russians) weren't the only ones making the mistake of believing that >> threatening the world with such a danger would ensure the peace. >> Pynchon >> speaks of the "succession of criminal insane" and I deeply share this >> opinion, not pointing to one side only. >> >> As you say it's the "official" version of history. I'd bet that >> Kennedy knew >> shortly after Khrushchev had decided to give an answer to the nuclear >> threat >> on his southern front that Khrushchev had indeed taken that risky >> decision >> in May 1962, and I'm sure that Kennedy was sure that Khrushchev would >> do so >> before he'd put those US-rockets to Turkey. >> >> "On October 22, 1962, Soviet Colonel Oleg Penkovsky is arrested in >> the >> Soviet Union. From April 1961, Penkovsky has been a spy for British >> and U.S. >> intelligence services, providing them with material on Soviet >> military >> capabilities, including important technical information on Soviet >> MRBM and >> ICBM programs." >> http://www.marxists.org/history/cuba/subject/missile-crisis/ch03.htm >> >> It was a logical step that Khrushchev would try it. But Cuba could be >> isolated easily, and Khrushchev turned the ships around finally >> (luckily). >> >> About the dates of my childhood memories I'm quite sure. There hasn't >> been >> such a tensely atmosphere before and my parents never have prepared a >> room >> downstairs again. Or do you remember a situation any time later when >> the US >> and the Soviets were so close at each others throats again? We were >> nailed >> to the tube watching the evening news, and when my dad came back from >> his >> 48 hours shifts on the airfield early in the morning he rested in the >> living >> room to listen to the radio-news because the only TV-channel was >> broadcasting only from the late afternoon on. >> >> No, I don't think that there has been such a concrete fear later. >> Later we >> knew that the nuclear balance was just "deterrence," that the >> politicians >> and generals had finally understood that no side would win a nuclear >> war. >> Have you ever been really afraid of a possible nuclear war later? I >> was not. >> There have been so many crises, the USA in Vietnam, the Russians in >> Afghanistan, Angola. The military-industrial complex who benefited >> from the >> ongoing "alarm" would have destroyed itself so the wars were shifted >> to the >> Third World; substitute wars on a lower level excluding a direct >> USA-UDSSR >> confrontation. >> >> On Nena and "99Luftballons" I admit that I've played that song too >> during my >> active time as a dj, but I've never been a big fan of her. I liked >> Nina >> Hagen's music more. >> >> On the question of the date I know that the most likely answer is >> that >> simply Pynchon's contract had ended. But I'm sure he wasn't unhappy >> about it. >> >> Otto >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Mark Wright AIA" >> To: >> Sent: Sunday, August 29, 2004 5:50 PM >> Subject: Re: 'Togetherness' >> >> >>> Howdy Otto >>> I know about the U.S. (our!) Jupiter missiles in Turkey. My use of >> the >>> old nickname "Crazy Ivan" was intended to be light and ironic. If >> you >>> didn't read it that way I'm sorry, I guess. >>> >>> In the "official" version of events Kennedy didn't learn about the >>> missiles in Cuba until October 15, when he was shown U-2 overflight >>> photos, which I presume must have been taken at least a day >> earlier. >>> Are you sure of the dates of your childhood memories? I'm not sure >> of >>> the dates of mine. My earliest genuine memories are of getting hit >>> pretty hard with a belt by my dad because I threw a heavy oak stool >> at >>> my little brother (and of always sitting at the table with my mom >>> between me and dad thereafter), sledding down hill and busting my >> head >>> on a concrete block buried in the snow, fighting with my younger >>> brother over *my* tricycle (there was only one), Soupy Sales, the >>> Kennedy Funeral, and of enormous waxed-cardboard cannisters of >> powdered >>> eggs and powdered milk stacked in our kitchen. >>> >>> I can't attach dates to any of it. Weren't the "continuous alarms" >> you >>> remember pretty much continuous back then? The atmosphere of crisis >> in >>> Europe must have been quite high from the days of the Berlin >> airlift >>> and before, and continued right on through the eighties, when that >>> great song "99Luftballons" was such a big hit with the kids... >>> Best >>> Mark >>> >> >> > > > > _______________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Win 1 of 4,000 free domain names from Yahoo! Enter now. > http://promotions.yahoo.com/goldrush From monropolitan at yahoo.com Mon Aug 30 05:51:50 2004 From: monropolitan at yahoo.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 03:51:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: "Togetherness" In-Reply-To: <20040829234049.10347.qmail@web40703.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20040830105150.24931.qmail@web50702.mail.yahoo.com> I posted earlier a link to the first page here ... "Pynchon at some point in 1960 moved into a rear apartment at 4709 Ninth Ave., N.E. in the University district of Seattle. This meant a commute of about ten mile to Boeing Aerospace Operations at E. Marginal Way. Boeing have denied that Pynchon was ever an employee, since they can find no records. However, the Boeing internal directories, shown here for the first time, show the exact nature of Pynchon's work. "For the year 1960, Pynchon didn't feature in any directory, being both new and probably missing the publication of the guide. The first recorded post he held was with the Bomarc Service Information Unit, which included the Bomarc Service News magazine. As described to Files, technical writing at Boeing for the Bomarc project was 'by the book'. Work was assigned, the subject studied, for example a loading-pin mechanism, then a visit was made to the on site manufacturing and application of the pin, a chat with the design engineers, then the writing up of the paper, using a Boeing style-book as reference, before editorial approval." http://web.archive.org/web/20010405172919/pynchonfiles.com/Boeing,Boeing.htm But Doug's reminded me offlist of this as well ... "The December 1960 issue of Aerospace Safety Magazine, an US Air Force publication featured an article by Thomas H. Pynchon (sic.), Bomarc Aero-Space Dept., and titled 'Togetherness'. The article focuses on potential risks involved in moving completed, but not armed, missiles to launching sites. This article, may have originally been included in some form in the Bomarc Service News, and then used by Aerospace Safety. "In his story 'Entropy' published earlier that year, there is a possible clue to Pynchon�s true feelings writing this sort of work. "'I believe the phrase is Togetherness.' "'Aarrgghh.' "'Exactly. You find that one a bit noisy, don't you.'" "Did Pynchon find his inspiration from the Lenny Bruce album, 'Togetherness'?" http://web.archive.org/web/20010415011608/pynchonfiles.com/BoeingPage2.htm And, further ... "Boeing is called Yoyodyne Inc., in Pynchon's novels. (A play on the rocket engineering company Rocketdyne who developed the F-1 engine for the Saturn V, which Boeing was also a contractor.) Described as an east coast company with so many defense contracts it didn't know what to do with them." http://web.archive.org/web/20010418175219/pynchonfiles.com/Boeingpage3.htm And wait, there's more ... http://web.archive.org/web/20010422023316/pynchonfiles.com/Boeingpage4.htm Thank you, Wayback Machine ... http://web.archive.org/web/20010603025543/pynchonfiles.com/PynchonFilesMainPage.htm And tahnks again, Doug. Okay, we seem to have a whole 'nother week here, so (right, Tim?) ... but really, Terrance, et al., anytime you want to set in o Gravity's Rainbow, or whoever's hosting next ... __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From monropolitan at yahoo.com Mon Aug 30 06:26:34 2004 From: monropolitan at yahoo.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 04:26:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Togetherness "At the Risk of Belaboring the Obvious" Message-ID: <20040830112634.85669.qmail@web50706.mail.yahoo.com> "These are probably the two major problems: slope of the ramp and positive communication. But when you come right down to it, the others are equally as important; areas like trailer and hoist maintenance, safety training, proper use of protective covers. Too often and too easily these areas can be dismissed with the formula: 'Not applicable; this is an Air Force problem.' At the risk of belaboring the obvious, it would seem that difference between getting killed and living to a ripe old age ought, by every rule of common sense, to be everybody's problem." (Togetherness) "everybody's problem" Cf. ... "When we speak of 'seriousness' in fiction ultimately we are talking about an attitude toward death--how characters may act in its presence, for example, or how they handle it when it isn't so immediate. Everybody knows this, but the subject is hardly ever brought up with younger writers, possibly because given to anyone at the apprentice age, such advice is widely felt to be effort wasted." (SL, "Intro," pp. 5-6) http://waste.org/mail/?list=pynchon-l&month=0211&msg=72936 __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From jbor at bigpond.com Mon Aug 30 07:25:04 2004 From: jbor at bigpond.com (jbor) Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 22:25:04 +1000 Subject: Wood reviews Wallace Message-ID: Review by James Wood of DFW's story collection. Title: The Digressionist. Subject(s): OBLIVION: Stories (Book); BOOKS -- Reviews; WALLACE, David Foster; SHORT stories; FICTION Source: New Republic, 8/9/2004, Vol. 231 Issue 6, p26, 6p Abstract: Reviews the book "Oblivion: Stories," by David Foster Wallace. Excerpt: [...] Like all immersion novelists, Wallace is digressive. One might say that the great problem with digression, as a literary mode, is that the only way to experience the aura of the digressive is to endure digression itself. The shaggy-dog story is excruciating precisely because it is shaggy; and alas, that is also the only way to experience its excruciating shagginess. For many readers, this is too high a price to pay. Likewise, the great limitation of immersion is that the only way it can represent something is by embodying it rather than by gesturing toward it. The original digressionist is Laurence Sterne, that master of the shaggy-dog story, or "Irish bull," and David Foster Wallace owes more than a little to that writer: the bulbous comic sentences, the manic listing, the spiralling footnotes (Infinite Jest has more than one hundred pages of them), the playing around with voices, the self-referentiality, the insistent and even relentless "comedy," the cod-scholarly interest in jargon and technical discourses--all this can be found in Tristram Shandy. Thomas Pynchon is the great American Sternean, and Wallace has also learned a good deal from him. T.S. Eliot's advice about the importance of "relevant intensity" in good prose undergoes almost an inversion in the hands of such writers. Irrelevant intensity becomes a motor of the prose, a generator of the comedy and loose abundance. [...] I can forward a pdf of the full review. Contact me offlist. best From monropolitan at yahoo.com Mon Aug 30 06:33:40 2004 From: monropolitan at yahoo.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 04:33:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: TPPM Host List Update In-Reply-To: <001801c48261$4560b1e0$15830f18@adminln4hlpboo> Message-ID: <20040830113340.90004.qmail@web50705.mail.yahoo.com> Just a reminder. I'll keep posting on "Togetherness" through the Labor Day Weekend (most likely from the Wisnicki PN Bomarc essay), but if anyone wants to start in on the next order of business (Glenn, Terrnace), feel free. In the emantime, thanks for listening, tahnks for responding, thank you for just being you, all of you, and, if no one's motivated (though I'm hoping, say, Joe Allony will pick up, say, teh Spike Jones notes), I'll do what I can to cover any lulls in the action. Might just have that Lotion album, even. Okay, thanks again, will be back ... --- Tim Strzechowski wrote: > Only 5 spots remaining: > > Aug. 9 - Aug. 22: "Mortality and Mercy in Vienna" > (1959) -- Dave Monroe > > Aug. 23 - Sept. 5: "Togetherness" (1960) -- D.M. > > Sept. 6 - Sept. 19: "The Gift" (1965) -- Glenn > Scheper > > Sept. 20 - Oct. 3: "A Journey into the Mind of > Watts" (1966) -- Paul Nightingale > > Oct. 4 - Oct. 17: Intro to Been Down So Long ... > (1983) -- Richard Ryan > > Oct. 18 - Oct. 31: "Is it O.K. to Be a Luddite?" > (1984) -- Joseph Tracy > > Nov. 1 - Nov. 14: "The Heart's Eternal Vow" (1988) > -- > > Nov. 15 - Nov. 28: Intro to The Writings of Donald > Barthelme (1992) -- > > Nov. 29 - Dec. 12: "Nearer, My Couch, to Thee" > (1993) -- Tim Strzechowski > > ** Assuming most folks will want a holiday hiatus > until the new year ... ** > > Jan. 3 - Jan. 16: Spike Jones Liner Notes (1994) -- > > > Jan 17 - Jan. 23: Lotion Liner Notes (1995) -- > > > Jan. 24 - Feb. 6: Intro to Stone Junction (1997) -- > Kurt-Werner Poertner > > Feb. 7 - Feb. 20: Intro to 1984 (2003) -- Joseph > Tracy __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From monropolitan at yahoo.com Mon Aug 30 06:56:14 2004 From: monropolitan at yahoo.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 04:56:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ALLIGATOR PATROL Message-ID: <20040830115614.41534.qmail@web50702.mail.yahoo.com> >From Vaughn L. Glasgow, A Social History of the American Alligator (New York: St. Martin's Press, 1991), Ch. 1, "Lost in the Myths of Time: American Alligator Legends," pp. 1-23 ... "The best-known twentieth-cnetury American alligator legend asserts that vactioning Manhattaners brought home large numbers of live souvenir baby alligators from Florida and flushed them into the sewers of New York City when it became apparent they wwee not suitable appartment dwellers. There the 'gators allegedly grew to large sizes, feeding on rats, terrorizing sewer workers, and occasionally emerging from their underground haunts to spread panic in the streets. Some versions sid the alligators, like cave animals, had become blind and white, having lost sight and pigmentation from generation of living in totl darkness. "This choice example of urban folklore seemingly finds its origins in a 1953 report in The New York Times that a large live alligator was fished out of the sewer by youngsters on 123rd Street near teh Harlem River.... A variant story was reacalled by Sewer Commissioner Teddy May. Reported in 1959 by Robert Daley, it said that alligators in the two-foot range had been discovered in Manhattan sewers in the 1930s, but this infestation had been eradicated fully by 1937. "In his novel V[.] (published in 1963 but set in the mid-1950s), writer Thomas Pynchon devoted an entire chapter to the alligator patrol at work in the New York City sewer system, building on May's account. Folklorist Loren Coleman judged that Pynchon 'brought this tale into modern popular culture as non one before him had.' The story continued to grow and to provide a subject for comment." (pp. 16-17) See V., Ch. V, "In which Stencil nearly goes West with an alligator" ... http://waste.org/mail/?list=pynchon-l&month=0010&msg=50179 And see as well ... Robert Daley, The World Beneath the City (1959) http://www.sewergator.com/lit/world_beneath_the_city.htm Siegel, Joel. "The Sewer Alligators." New York Daily News, June 18, 2002, p. 55. http://www.sewergator.com/news/nydn20020618.htm Coleman, Loren. "Alligators-in-the-Sewers: A Journalistic Origin." Journal of American Folklore, No. 92 (1979). As well as ... http://urbanlegends.about.com/library/legends/bl-alligators.htm http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a2_339.html http://www.snopes.com/critters/lurkers/gator.htm http://www.unmuseum.org/sgator.htm Also ... John Quincy Adams 1825-1829 An Alligator given to him by the Marquis de Lafayette and Silkworms belonging to Mrs. Louisa Adams http://www.presidentialpetmuseum.com/whitehousepets-4.htm The Happiest Millionaire (1967) http://imdb.com/title/tt0061749/ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From mwaia at yahoo.com Mon Aug 30 08:18:27 2004 From: mwaia at yahoo.com (Mark Wright AIA) Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 06:18:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Boeing v. Yoyodyne (was Re: "Togetherness" ) In-Reply-To: <20040830105150.24931.qmail@web50702.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20040830131827.61557.qmail@web13821.mail.yahoo.com> Howdy Dave I haven't the gumption to look into this myself, so I'll as the expert: How did Boing start out? Is there any similarity with the "toy gyroscope to missile guidance system" sequence P describes, and how does the founder, whoever that might be, map on to Clayton "Bloody" Chiclitz? Mark > And, further ... > > "Boeing is called Yoyodyne Inc., in Pynchon's > novels. (A play on the rocket engineering company > Rocketdyne who developed the F-1 engine for the Saturn > V, which Boeing was also a contractor.) Described as > an east coast company with so many defense contracts > it didn't know what to do with them." > > http://web.archive.org/web/20010418175219/pynchonfiles.com/Boeingpage3.htm __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From dmeury at lioninc.com Mon Aug 30 08:24:36 2004 From: dmeury at lioninc.com (David Meury) Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 06:24:36 -0700 Subject: "AN ARMY OF LOVERS CAN BE BEATEN." Message-ID: <433F878CBD5DFE4D9758FDC641477D03014231A4@mail1.LIONIMTS.COM> A master stroke of analysis, Herr Doctor. Who said, "a Freudian slip is meaning one thing and saying a mother"? Dave Monroe >No puns where none intended (emphasis added) ...< --- joeallonby wrote: >> I await Glenn's reaction to this with BATED breath.<< From ghetta_outta at hotmail.com Mon Aug 30 08:47:01 2004 From: ghetta_outta at hotmail.com (Ghetta Life) Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 13:47:01 +0000 Subject: 'Togetherness' Message-ID: I was recently in Kennebunkport, Maine, vacation-home location of Daddy-Bush, and I saw only a few Bush bumper stickers. I saw many more for Kerry. I proudly wore my pro-Kerry/anti-Bush buttons attached to my hat-band. And then I was very happy to find the Kerry headquarters prominently located in the center of town. Here in New Orleans I see lots of Kerry bumper stickers and almost none for Bush. Of course New Orleans is the Democratic bastion countered by the racist, religious, right-wingers to the north of the state. You know, the ones that got David Duke on the ballot for governor about 15 years ago... Ghetta >From: Mark Wright AIA > >I should have been on the streets across the river today. Air America says >Reuters puts the number marching today in Manhattan at some 400,000. > >We just spent ten days Drifting in the High Plains of eastern Wyoming, the >Black Hills and Badlands of South Dakota, and the mountains of Colorado --- >and in ten days of watching for them we saw three (count 'em! three!) Bush >bumperstickers. I think this is hopeful. We looked on the roads, and in >parking areas. It seems that few are particularly anxious to be seen as >Bush Boosters even where his victory seems assured. _________________________________________________________________ Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From davemarc at panix.com Mon Aug 30 10:10:21 2004 From: davemarc at panix.com (davemarc) Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 11:10:21 -0400 Subject: Vineland: Protesters, Public Restrooms, and Cheap Threads Message-ID: <000801c48ea3$929b9620$2fc654a6@gmsc20b> In Vineland, Zipi Pisk grants that Magnin's has a "very nice ladies' toilet." (196) I've previously pointed out that, for a resourceful New Yorker like Zipi, department stores are often seen as places where one has easy access to bathrooms. In this week's Village Voice, there's a supplement about "Where to Eat, Drink, Sleep, Pee, Protest--and Hide Out--During The Republican National Convention." Inside, a sidebar entitled "Public toilets for when you're-in-town" (the pun is more obvious in the print edition, which uses the hyphens) recommends two department store bathrooms: one at Lord & Taylorone and one at Macy's (just off today's march route). http://www.villagevoice.com/issues/0434/raber.php And here's something about another hot issue in our discussion of Vineland: protest fashion. http://www.villagevoice.com/issues/0434/yaeger2.php d. From monropolitan at yahoo.com Mon Aug 30 10:26:31 2004 From: monropolitan at yahoo.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 08:26:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: "AN ARMY OF LOVERS CAN BE BEATEN." In-Reply-To: <433F878CBD5DFE4D9758FDC641477D03014231A4@mail1.LIONIMTS.COM> Message-ID: <20040830152631.54446.qmail@web50706.mail.yahoo.com> Sometimes a breath is just a breast ... --- David Meury wrote: > > A master stroke of analysis, Herr Doctor. Who said, > "a Freudian slip is meaning one thing and saying a > mother"? > > > Dave Monroe > > >No puns where none intended (emphasis added) ...< > > --- joeallonby wrote: > > >> I await Glenn's reaction to this with BATED > breath.<< __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From monropolitan at yahoo.com Mon Aug 30 12:01:36 2004 From: monropolitan at yahoo.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 10:01:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Boeing v. Yoyodyne (was Re: "Togetherness" ) In-Reply-To: <20040830131827.61557.qmail@web13821.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20040830170136.27612.qmail@web50705.mail.yahoo.com> Well, I did a little research on gyroscopes, hope these actually call up the posts I've dug up here. Some suggestive possible other connections here ... http://waste.org/mail/?list=pynchon-l&month=0103&msg=53753 http://waste.org/mail/?list=pynchon-l&month=0103&msg=54033 Riesman, Sperry ... and on Chiclitz ... http://waste.org/mail/?list=pynchon-l&month=0103&msg=53752 But on Boeing, here's yr official history ... In 1903, two events launched the history of modern aviation. The Wright brothers made their first flight at Kitty Hawk, North Carolina, and William Boeing, born Oct. 1, 1881, in Detroit, Michigan, left Yale engineering college for the West Coast. After making his fortune trading forest lands around Grays Harbor, Washington, Boeing moved to Seattle in 1908 and, two years later, went to Los Angeles for the first American air meet. Boeing tried to get a ride in one of the airplanes, but not one of the dozen aviators participating in the event would oblige. Boeing came back to Seattle disappointed, but determined to learn more about this new science of aviation.... http://www.boeing.com/history/boeing/ William E. Boeing 1881-1956 Company Founder and Owner, President, Chairman of the Board � 1916-1934 William E. Boeing left Yale University in 1903 to take advantage of opportunities in the risky and cyclical, but financially rewarding, Northwest timber industry. That experience would serve him well in aviation. Under his guidance, a tiny airplane manufacturing company grew into a huge corporation of related industries. When post-Depression legislation in 1934 mandated the dispersion of the corporation, Boeing sold his interests in the Boeing Airplane Company, but continued to work on other business ventures. He became one of America's most successful breeders of thoroughbred horses. He never lost his interest in aviation, and during World War II he volunteered as a consultant to the company. He lived until 1956, long enough to see the company he started enter the jet age. http://www.boeing.com/history/boeing/boeing.html Note the picture, cf. Chiclitz, "about as fat as Marvy and wears hornrimmed glasses, and the top of his head's as shiny as his face," "the Royal Baby." But also, both Boeing and Chiclitz started off in (at least) one business, ended up in another. Hm ... "Right now business is taking care of itself, but Chiclitz has eyes on the future. That's why he's running this fur operation [...] 'Reentrenchment. Got to get capitalized, enough to see me through,' splashing champagne into gold communion chalices, 'till we see which way it' gonna go. Myself, I think there's a great future in these V-weapons. They're gonna be really big." (GR, p. 558) "'Galley slaves?' Chiclitz roars. 'Never, by God. For De Mille, young fur-henchmen can't be rowing!'" (GR, p. 559) "be rowing" --> Boeing? Okay, so that's a stretch ... Boyes is a patronymic from a Low German and Danish given name -- Boye -- derived from Germanic given name Boio, which is of uncertain origin. Botha was a common medieval name and Boio may be another form. Variations of Boye are Boje, Boie, Bohe . Cognate formare are Bov, Bovo, Bovio, Bovi (Italian). Boyke, Boyk, Boykin are diminutive forms. Boysen, Boyens, Bojens, Boeing, Boysen, Boisen, Bojesen, Boesen are other patronymic forms. http://shop.store.yahoo.com/4crests/samcoatofarf.html Okay, gotta work on this ... --- Mark Wright AIA wrote: > > I haven't the gumption to look into this myself, so > I'll as the expert: > > How did Boing start out? Is there any similarity > with the "toy gyroscope to missile guidance system" > sequence P describes, and how does the founder, > whoever that might be, map on to Clayton "Bloody" > Chiclitz? __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From lycidas2 at earthlink.net Mon Aug 30 16:10:50 2004 From: lycidas2 at earthlink.net (Terrance) Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 17:10:50 -0400 Subject: Togetherness Message-ID: <413397DA.5A293817@earthlink.net> http://www.jessamyn.com/barth/report.html From mwaia at yahoo.com Mon Aug 30 16:22:24 2004 From: mwaia at yahoo.com (Mark Wright AIA) Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 14:22:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Boeing v. Yoyodyne (was Re: "Togetherness" ) In-Reply-To: <20040830170136.27612.qmail@web50705.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20040830212224.98630.qmail@web13821.mail.yahoo.com> Howdy Thanks Dave. I remember these posts from a while back. So Bloody Chiclitz is disappointingly fictional. Too bad. But his backstory nicely inverts the history of gyroscope as toy and as the steadfast heart of modern guidance systems. Unlike his pendulum, Foucault's gyrocompass points not at the zenith but into the icy north. His gyroscope is an amoral compass, finding the abstract true north rather than the touchier, feelier, more merciful magnetic north. How should we navigate the body of Gaia if not by touch and dead reckoning? The magnetic compass was enough of an insult. These gyros are an abomination in her sight! Eco left the gyros to P, and adapted the pendulum to his own uses. Sperry Rand is as close to the Yoyodyne paradigm as Boeing might be. Neither is as amusing. Thanks Mark --- Dave Monroe wrote: > Well, I did a little research on gyroscopes, hope > these actually call up the posts I've dug up here. > Some suggestive possible other connections here ... > > http://waste.org/mail/?list=pynchon-l&month=0103&msg=53753 > > http://waste.org/mail/?list=pynchon-l&month=0103&msg=54033 > > Riesman, Sperry ... and on Chiclitz ... > > http://waste.org/mail/?list=pynchon-l&month=0103&msg=53752 > > But on Boeing, here's yr official history ... > > In 1903, two events launched the history of modern > aviation. The Wright brothers made their first flight > at Kitty Hawk, North Carolina, and William Boeing, > born Oct. 1, 1881, in Detroit, Michigan, left Yale > engineering college for the West Coast. > > After making his fortune trading forest lands around > Grays Harbor, Washington, Boeing moved to Seattle in > 1908 and, two years later, went to Los Angeles for the > first American air meet. Boeing tried to get a ride in > one of the airplanes, but not one of the dozen > aviators participating in the event would oblige. > Boeing came back to Seattle disappointed, but > determined to learn more about this new science of > aviation.... > > http://www.boeing.com/history/boeing/ > > William E. Boeing > 1881-1956 > > Company Founder and Owner, President, Chairman of the > Board � 1916-1934 > > William E. Boeing left Yale University in 1903 to take > advantage of opportunities in the risky and cyclical, > but financially rewarding, Northwest timber industry. > That experience would serve him well in aviation. > > Under his guidance, a tiny airplane manufacturing > company grew into a huge corporation of related > industries. When post-Depression legislation in 1934 > mandated the dispersion of the corporation, Boeing > sold his interests in the Boeing Airplane Company, but > continued to work on other business ventures. > > He became one of America's most successful breeders of > thoroughbred horses. He never lost his interest in > aviation, and during World War II he volunteered as a > consultant to the company. He lived until 1956, long > enough to see the company he started enter the jet > age. > > http://www.boeing.com/history/boeing/boeing.html > > Note the picture, cf. Chiclitz, "about as fat as Marvy > and wears hornrimmed glasses, and the top of his > head's as shiny as his face," "the Royal Baby." But > also, both Boeing and Chiclitz started off in (at > least) one business, ended up in another. Hm ... > > "Right now business is taking care of itself, but > Chiclitz has eyes on the future. That's why he's > running this fur operation [...] 'Reentrenchment. > Got to get capitalized, enough to see me through,' > splashing champagne into gold communion chalices, > 'till we see which way it' gonna go. Myself, I think > there's a great future in these V-weapons. They're > gonna be really big." (GR, p. 558) > > "'Galley slaves?' Chiclitz roars. 'Never, by God. For > De Mille, young fur-henchmen can't be rowing!'" (GR, > p. 559) > > "be rowing" --> Boeing? Okay, so that's a stretch ... > > Boyes is a patronymic from a Low German and Danish > given name -- Boye -- derived from Germanic given name > Boio, which is of uncertain origin. Botha was a common > medieval name and Boio may be another form. Variations > of Boye are Boje, Boie, Bohe . Cognate formare are > Bov, Bovo, Bovio, Bovi (Italian). Boyke, Boyk, Boykin > are diminutive forms. Boysen, Boyens, Bojens, Boeing, > Boysen, Boisen, Bojesen, Boesen are other patronymic > forms. > > http://shop.store.yahoo.com/4crests/samcoatofarf.html > > Okay, gotta work on this ... > > --- Mark Wright AIA wrote: > > > > I haven't the gumption to look into this myself, so > > I'll as the expert: > > > > How did Boing start out? Is there any similarity > > with the "toy gyroscope to missile guidance system" > > sequence P describes, and how does the founder, > > whoever that might be, map on to Clayton "Bloody" > > Chiclitz? > > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers! > http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Address AutoComplete - You start. We finish. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From lycidas2 at earthlink.net Mon Aug 30 16:49:31 2004 From: lycidas2 at earthlink.net (Terrance) Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 17:49:31 -0400 Subject: Boeing v. Yoyodyne (was Re: "Togetherness" ) References: <20040830212224.98630.qmail@web13821.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4133A0EB.D845E6C@earthlink.net> Check out Yo Yo Ma's CD, Magnetic Google Memory. On "Side Two" there is a toon called Von Braun was the Eggman. If you record it and play it backward you'll hear Kurt Vonnegut Jr. say, "John's bloody chick list" or something like that. Mark Wright AIA wrote: > > Howdy > Thanks Dave. I remember these posts from a while back. > > So Bloody Chiclitz is disappointingly fictional. From vze422fs at verizon.net Mon Aug 30 18:58:12 2004 From: vze422fs at verizon.net (joeallonby) Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 19:58:12 -0400 Subject: "AN ARMY OF LOVERS CAN BE BEATEN." In-Reply-To: <20040830152631.54446.qmail@web50706.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I'll be appearing here all week, folks. Please remember to tip your lovely and talented waitstaff. on 8/30/04 11:26 AM, Dave Monroe at monropolitan at yahoo.com wrote: > Sometimes a breath is just a breast ... > > --- David Meury wrote: > >> >> A master stroke of analysis, Herr Doctor. Who said, >> "a Freudian slip is meaning one thing and saying a >> mother"? >> >> >> Dave Monroe >> >>> No puns where none intended (emphasis added) ...< >> >> --- joeallonby wrote: >> >>>> I await Glenn's reaction to this with BATED >> breath.<< > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com From tyronemullet at hotmail.com Mon Aug 30 23:33:49 2004 From: tyronemullet at hotmail.com (Steve Maas) Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 21:33:49 -0700 Subject: Dubyas Uke Farewell Party Message-ID: I figger the uke content justifies forwarding this. (The "I" is not me.) Steve Maas ------------------- >From Another List: Last Friday night [Aug. 27] I went to an event called "Dubya's Ukulele Farewell Party" at a club called Fez in the East Village. There were 17 different acts performing a song or two apiece, and each act featured a different ukulele player. I've never seen so many ukuleles in one place! Illeana Douglas (the actress) was the emcee, and the house was packed. Pder and John Kruth performed "Columbia, Gem of the Ocean" and "This is My Country", and there was even a group called Sonic Uke. It was a fun and creative way to express dissent, and probably the only chance I'll get to hear ukulele versions of "What's So Funny (Bout Peace, Love & Understanding)" and "Yer Blues". _________________________________________________________________ Is your PC infected? Get a FREE online computer virus scan from McAfee� Security. http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 From ottosell at yahoo.de Tue Aug 31 00:16:36 2004 From: ottosell at yahoo.de (Otto) Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 07:16:36 +0200 Subject: Togetherness References: <413397DA.5A293817@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <001301c48f19$b18ed9e0$0101a8c0@i7t2q2> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Terrance" To: Sent: Monday, August 30, 2004 11:10 PM Subject: re: Togetherness Report by Donald Barthelme > http://www.jessamyn.com/barth/report.html German translation at "Kursbuch" No. 15, Nov. 1968, pp. 137-141 translated by Adolf Muschg From jbor at bigpond.com Tue Aug 31 07:41:38 2004 From: jbor at bigpond.com (jbor) Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 22:41:38 +1000 Subject: VLVL Pynchon's eye for detail Message-ID: http://evany.diaryland.com/040730_19.html A brief reminiscence about the apparently memorably lavish and luxurious ladies' bathrooms at I. Magnin's in S.F. From the description and pics it's easy to understand why Pynchon has his privileged little "rebel" miss Zipi Pisk make mention of them so condescendingly while she's kvetching about the lack of a "major store" on the West Coast and the superior style and sophistication of her accustomed Manhattan shopping haunts. "Magnin's?" Zipi would smile grimly. "OK for a shopping center, somewhere on Long Island perhaps, very nice ladies' toilet of course, but please, this is no major store." (196) best From glenn_scheper at earthlink.net Tue Aug 31 09:34:34 2004 From: glenn_scheper at earthlink.net (Glenn Scheper) Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 07:34:34 -0700 (GMT-07:00) Subject: TPPM Host List Update Message-ID: <1835244.1093962874492.JavaMail.root@ernie.psp.pas.earthlink.net> > I'll keep posting on "Togetherness" > through the Labor Day Weekend (most likely from the > Wisnicki PN Bomarc essay), > but if anyone wants to start in on the next order of > business (Glenn, Terrnace), feel free. I've been slacking, napping instead of thinking. I've got my first 10 post on the title lined up. But I'd like to do something about the body text and count them for an even distribution in my assigned period, that is, the work days of it. Yours truly, Glenn Scheper http://home.earthlink.net/~glenn_scheper/ glenn_scheper + at + earthlink.net Copyleft(!) Forward freely. From glenn_scheper at earthlink.net Tue Aug 31 09:35:08 2004 From: glenn_scheper at earthlink.net (Glenn Scheper) Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 07:35:08 -0700 (GMT-07:00) Subject: "AN ARMY OF LOVERS CAN BE BEATEN." Message-ID: <19034055.1093962909023.JavaMail.root@ernie.psp.pas.earthlink.net> > I await Glenn's reaction to this with BATED breath. >> the Brooklyn Orgastic Politics Collective (BOP-C) >> will be conducting Orgone operations with >> several of our Cloudbusters, Sorry, I can't help this time around. After two month with the plumb line, I fucked a baggie of wet sement, to place the final stone into my fence, (trying to emulate Zerubbabel) and now I am nursing my wounds. Yours truly, Glenn Scheper http://home.earthlink.net/~glenn_scheper/ glenn_scheper + at + earthlink.net Copyleft(!) Forward freely. From monropolitan at yahoo.com Tue Aug 31 16:40:28 2004 From: monropolitan at yahoo.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 14:40:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Remembering Ned Ludd Message-ID: <20040831214028.71957.qmail@web50701.mail.yahoo.com> >From Geoffrey Nunberg, "Remembering Ned Ludd," The Way We Talk Now (Boston: Houghton Mifflin, 2001), pp. 76-8 ... "Boethius wrote that every man dies two deaths: the first of his body, the second of his fame.... But occasionally fate makes a special deal with some people, which lets their names live on even after their fame has subsided. They don't have to give up their souls, just their capital lettrs, so they can continue as common nouns. [...] "Sometimes a name comes down to us through a whole series of forgettings. Take Ned Ludd. The first bearer of the name was ... a feeble-minded workman who lived in a small town in Leicestershire near the end of the eighteenth century. It happend that one day he cahsed some boys who were tormanting him into a house where some frames used in stocking manufacture were kept. Unable to catch the boys, he vented his anger on the frames. Afterward, whenevr machinery was broken it became the local joke to say that Ned Ludd had done it. The joke might have died out soon enough, but about thirty years later, when a band of Nottingham craftsmen took to breaking up machinery ina systematic way, their leader called himself General Ludd, and his followers became known as Luddites, a name that spread along with the movement to other parts of the English Midlands. "The modern myth holds that the Luddites were simply rioters who smashed machinery in the vain belief taht they could somehow hold back the tide of industrialization, and since then people invoke the word whenever they want to suggest an irrational resistance to technological change.... 'I'm no Luddite, but ...'--it's the loyalty oath of the republic of progress. "The thing of it is taht the Luddites were no Luddites either. It's true that they destroyed machinery that enabled mill owners to replace them with women and children who worked sixteen-hour days for subsistence wages .... But what drove the Luddites to open rebellion was a series of legal measures that had stripped away tehir right to organize and eliminated the minimum wage, all in the name of free markets and the need to improve Britain's international competitiveness. And even then tehy were selective in their destruction: they spared the machines of mill owners who hadn't lowered their wages or who had compensated men put out of work. "The Luddites won some temprary local victories .... But in the end, with the full power of the state arrayed against it, the movement was doomed. Parliament made the destruction of machinery a capital crime, over the eloquent objections of Lord Byron.... Some of the Luddites finsihed on the gallows, the rest went underground. Their story was rewritten as a lesson about the futility of trying to stand in the way of technological change. The victors have always written the history books, but in this case they wrote the dictionaries, too." (76-8) http://www.houghtonmifflinbooks.com/catalog/titledetail.cfm?textType=toc&titleNumber=H01841 Lord Byron, Song of the Luddites (1816) As the Liberty lads over the sea Brought their freedom, and cheaply with blood, So we, boys, we Will die fighting, or live free, And down with all kings by King Ludd! When the web that we weave is complete, And the shuttle exchanged for the sword, We will fling the winding sheet Over the despot at our feet, And dye it deep in the gore he has poured. Though black as his heart its hue, Since his veins are corrupted to mud, Yet this is the dew Which the tree shall renew Of Liberty, planted by Ludd! http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/PRbyron.htm And see as well ... http://engphil.astate.edu/gallery/byron7.html Pynchon, Thomas. "Is It O.K. to Be a Luddite?" New York Times, October 28th, 1984. http://www.nytimes.com/books/97/05/18/reviews/pynchon-luddite.html __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From jbor at bigpond.com Tue Aug 31 17:33:01 2004 From: jbor at bigpond.com (jbor) Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2004 08:33:01 +1000 Subject: NP Cute and cuddly - not Message-ID: http://smh.com.au/articles/2004/08/27/1093518082647.html As the monthly p-list spree looms once again, the Wikipedia entry linked at the end of the article has got it pegged. best From brook7 at earthlink.net Tue Aug 31 20:35:51 2004 From: brook7 at earthlink.net (Joseph Tracy) Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 21:35:51 -0400 Subject: Sci-Fi flicks Message-ID: <410-2200493113551392@earthlink.net> Liked 1st Matrix, 12 Monkeys, I Think The 5th Element is hilarious and a great ride with a unique musical score, Blade Runner, Brazil, Star Wars, really liked AI, thought Minority Report was darkly prescient, don't know what category King Kong fits in but a great movie, Jurassic Park , I also liked Slaughterhouse 5 Joseph Tracy brook7 at earthlink.net Why Wait? Move to EarthLink.