The Glory Days

[jbor at bigpond.com]

Yes, I understand that there's a lot of anger and bruised egos, but I'm 
also pretty sure that there are two sides to the story. As I said, I've 
read the archives straight through up to about late-1995, and I have a 
pretty clear sense of what was what during that time. I imagine I could 
just as easily read the archives from then on to get a clear picture of 
what did happen with Jules, but so far I've really only really stumbled 
upon a few posts to and from Jules when researching something else 
(keyword search, search by author).

In some of those exchanges it appeared that Jules had said something 
about Pynchon and then was attacked for it. My question on that score 
was, how come hoaxes are defended so bitterly and yet an opportunity 
for actual biographical information was driven away? When I say hoaxes 
I'm not really talking about the Bugs Bunny teeth photo from the French 
webzine, which in itself was quite funny and I would expect to be sent 
to the list. But the way that some of the long-term subscribers allowed 
themselves to be lured into a stupid debate about it was what I found 
surprising. Hopefully, however, June '05 will go down as the month that 
"The Fonz" finally jumped the shark.

Someone offered to send me _Lineland_ a while back but I'm really not 
interested in reading it, because I know that it only presents one side 
of the story -- Jules's -- and that it would be a pretty jaundiced view 
at that. But the other question which is fascinating is whether Jules 
subscribed to the list with the intention of writing _Lineland_, or 
whether he put it together out of revenge after the way he perceived he 
had been treated here. I suspect the latter is the case.

By the way, when I subscribed in '98 on one half of the list there was 
what appeared to be a really humourless read of M&D just winding down 
and on the other half there were these incredibly over-the-top slanging 
matches where people were calling one another wife-beaters. And in the 
centre between the two there was a whole lotta inanity. Quite bizarre.

best

On 26/06/2005, at 9:17 PM, Will Layman wrote:

> Well, I don't know if reading the archives is quite the same as having 
> been
> there, then.  Jules was a fascinating character -- but a frustrating
> character -- quite aside from his Pynchon connection.  He would be
> interesting and funny one day, then highly combative the next.  He 
> would
> give and take a joke, then suddenly become wildly offended at someone 
> else's
> joke -- then when called on that he would claim that he had been 
> joking all
> along and WE (in thinking he was actually offended) were "humor 
> impaired"
> and should check the "humor implants" in our brains.
>
> Before LINELAND became public, Jules established himself as one of the 
> most
> patronizing and condescendingly schizy people you'd ever been in 
> contact
> with.  Then, when he started playing the poor, deprived artist -- 
> asking us
> to send him books in his isolated, third-world location -- people 
> started to
> really resent him.
>
> When LINELAND emerged, quite aside from the fact that many of us had 
> our
> words from Pynchon-L placed in his book (indeed, the book seemed to be 
> make
> up primarily of our words rather than his) without being asked, there 
> was
> the notion that it had all been an act conceived of the "create" the 
> book.
> This just made the whole thing -- that had been infused with a fair 
> amount
> of emotion and sincerity by many members of the list -- seem more
> duplicitous.
>
> When Jules' agent came on the list and started dealing with us like a
> lawyer, it seems even a bit more sour.
>
> I was highly entertained by Jules, but that's what I remember it being 
> like.
>
> Yes, I think this stupid photo and the PLAYBOY "interview" would not 
> have
> gotten ANY credibility back then.  The Jules thing was real, and 
> weird, and
> interesting.  Not much on this list in the last year or two has even 
> come
> close.
>
> -- Will
>
> On 6/25/05 7:22 PM, "jbor at bigpond.com" <jbor at bigpond.com> wrote:
>
>> And, speaking of Pynchon apocrypha, it has always seemed odd that 
>> Jules
>> Siegel provoked so much hostility, even, apparently, in the
>> pre-"Lineland" era. From what little I've seen in the archives, Jules,
>> a friend of the author, was often coherent and polite. Why is it that
>> his personal remembrances of Pynchon weren't palatable, where kooky
>> Bugs Bunny teeth are (answers itself really), and hoaxes like the 
>> Japan
>> Playboy "interview" or the Unabomber rumour are likewise just fine and
>> dandy, and woebetide anyone who dares question them? For a long time
>> any time Jules's name was mentioned here there would be a sudden
>> scourge of trollthrops and periphery-dwellers closing down the
>> discussion. ... Moreso than usual, anyway.
>>
>> I've never seen or read _Lineland_, by the way. Just making
>> conversation.
>>
>> best
>>
>> p.s. I'm going to put my money on the table and state the obvious: the
>> current "mittelwerk" and "terrance" are fake.
>>
>> On 25/06/2005, at 6:53 AM, jbor wrote:
>>
>>> Yes. He ran a couple of the major group reads, and he ran them well.
>>> In between times he was a pretty dab hand at sorting the wheat from
>>> the chaff.
>>>
>>> best
>>>
>>> On 25/06/2005, at 1:42 AM, Ghetta Life wrote:
>>>
>>>> Well, A. Dinn didn't "run" the list, but he did "lead" it by the
>>>> example of his manners and scholarship.
>>>>
>>>> Ghetta
>>>
>>
>