The Glory Days

[Joseph Cerrato]

And do I correctly remember JS more or less inferred the Godfather owed 
him something?
To me Jules was someone eager to profit by the buzz around former 
friends'fame. He popped up from nowhere when M&D was announced and 
Lineland was released just before Pynchon's latest opus.

Joseph


jbor at bigpond.com wrote:

> Thanks. It's always good to have an insider perspective. As I said, I 
> haven't read the archives from the Jules era, only seen bits and 
> pieces. It is ironic that back then there were reservations expressed 
> about participating in correspondence with former acquaintance/s of 
> Pynchon as perhaps being an invasion of his privacy, and yet the 
> straightforward denial issued by Melanie Jackson about the Playboy 
> Japan "interview" gets labelled as "not credible" and 
> "unsubstantiated". Different people, one would hope.
>
> From your account it appears that Jules was a mere profiteer, just out 
> for one more ride on Pynchon's coattails. It sounds as if the 
> interview with Chrissie was probably a set-up for the book, and that 
> the book was in the offing from the get-go, or soon thereafter.
>
> One thing that might be inferred from your pronoun usage is that the 
> sudden apparition of Jules on the list was a unifying factor -- the 
> "we" and "us" all rallied together, in awe or curiosity at first, and 
> then combatively I guess. I'd imagine that quite a few of the 
> participants would soon come to regret some of the alliances they had 
> cultivated!
>
> best
>
> On 27/06/2005, at 8:10 AM, Will Layman wrote:
>
>> Jbor --
>>
>> Your reading of that time really isn't accurate.  Jules was embraced for
>> what he could tell us / teach us about TRP.  He courted us, and 
>> people were
>> fascinated.  Pretty quickly, he announced to us that he had persuaded 
>> his
>> ex-wife, Chrissie Jolly (and the girlfriend who TRP famously "stole" 
>> from
>> him as per the title of Jules's PLAYBOY article on TRP) to be 
>> "interviewed"
>> by us.  We were encouraged to (and did) submit questions to her.
>>
>> As we were submitting questions, there was a fairly interesting round of
>> soul-searching on the list about whether we should be doing this.  
>> That is,
>> were we violating Pynchon's own desire for anonymity by grilling a 
>> former
>> friend of his.  But many of us submitted anyway, trying to be smart or
>> sensitive or whatever.
>>
>> So then Jules posts the interview (and it is contained in LINELAND), 
>> and it
>> is a rather strange piece of theater.  Chrissie answers some questions,
>> revealing amazingly little of interest beyond what was already in the
>> PLAYBOY article.  Then she tells Jules what stupid questions we have
>> submitted and, essentially, shuts down the interview.  Very odd.
>>
>> Some speculated that the interview was fake, as I recall.
>>
>> But the point is, we rather embraced Jules, or at least we embraced 
>> him as
>> much as Pynchon-L embraces anyone.  There was skepticism and joking 
>> and all
>> that, but genuine curiosity.
>>
>> Back then, there were none of these internet-fueled bogus claims to run
>> down, but we were still properly skeptical of a guy showing up on the 
>> list
>> and claiming to be someone who knows/knew TRP well, yet was merely 
>> spouting
>> the same crap that we all already knew, most of it from the PLAYBOY 
>> article.
>> But we were OK toward Jules, at least until he started acting like an
>> incredibly acerbic, patronizing ass, combined with this hurt and lost 
>> soul
>> who wanted us to send him free shit.  Then the book.
>>
>> It was great fun, it was weird.  But you analysis that we were 
>> skeptical and
>> negative toward him, the real deal, while being taken in by obvious 
>> bullshit
>> really is not accurate.
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> Will
>>
>> On 6/26/05 5:36 PM, "jbor at bigpond.com" <jbor at bigpond.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Yes, I understand that there's a lot of anger and bruised egos, but I'm
>>> also pretty sure that there are two sides to the story. As I said, I've
>>> read the archives straight through up to about late-1995, and I have a
>>> pretty clear sense of what was what during that time. I imagine I could
>>> just as easily read the archives from then on to get a clear picture of
>>> what did happen with Jules, but so far I've really only really stumbled
>>> upon a few posts to and from Jules when researching something else
>>> (keyword search, search by author).
>>>
>>> In some of those exchanges it appeared that Jules had said something
>>> about Pynchon and then was attacked for it. My question on that score
>>> was, how come hoaxes are defended so bitterly and yet an opportunity
>>> for actual biographical information was driven away? When I say hoaxes
>>> I'm not really talking about the Bugs Bunny teeth photo from the French
>>> webzine, which in itself was quite funny and I would expect to be sent
>>> to the list. But the way that some of the long-term subscribers allowed
>>> themselves to be lured into a stupid debate about it was what I found
>>> surprising. Hopefully, however, June '05 will go down as the month that
>>> "The Fonz" finally jumped the shark.
>>>
>>> Someone offered to send me _Lineland_ a while back but I'm really not
>>> interested in reading it, because I know that it only presents one side
>>> of the story -- Jules's -- and that it would be a pretty jaundiced view
>>> at that. But the other question which is fascinating is whether Jules
>>> subscribed to the list with the intention of writing _Lineland_, or
>>> whether he put it together out of revenge after the way he perceived he
>>> had been treated here. I suspect the latter is the case.
>>>
>>> By the way, when I subscribed in '98 on one half of the list there was
>>> what appeared to be a really humourless read of M&D just winding down
>>> and on the other half there were these incredibly over-the-top slanging
>>> matches where people were calling one another wife-beaters. And in the
>>> centre between the two there was a whole lotta inanity. Quite bizarre.
>>>
>>> best
>>>
>>> On 26/06/2005, at 9:17 PM, Will Layman wrote:
>>>
>>>> Well, I don't know if reading the archives is quite the same as having
>>>> been
>>>> there, then.  Jules was a fascinating character -- but a frustrating
>>>> character -- quite aside from his Pynchon connection.  He would be
>>>> interesting and funny one day, then highly combative the next.  He
>>>> would
>>>> give and take a joke, then suddenly become wildly offended at someone
>>>> else's
>>>> joke -- then when called on that he would claim that he had been
>>>> joking all
>>>> along and WE (in thinking he was actually offended) were "humor
>>>> impaired"
>>>> and should check the "humor implants" in our brains.
>>>>
>>>> Before LINELAND became public, Jules established himself as one of the
>>>> most
>>>> patronizing and condescendingly schizy people you'd ever been in
>>>> contact
>>>> with.  Then, when he started playing the poor, deprived artist --
>>>> asking us
>>>> to send him books in his isolated, third-world location -- people
>>>> started to
>>>> really resent him.
>>>>
>>>> When LINELAND emerged, quite aside from the fact that many of us had
>>>> our
>>>> words from Pynchon-L placed in his book (indeed, the book seemed to be
>>>> make
>>>> up primarily of our words rather than his) without being asked, there
>>>> was
>>>> the notion that it had all been an act conceived of the "create" the
>>>> book.
>>>> This just made the whole thing -- that had been infused with a fair
>>>> amount
>>>> of emotion and sincerity by many members of the list -- seem more
>>>> duplicitous.
>>>>
>>>> When Jules' agent came on the list and started dealing with us like a
>>>> lawyer, it seems even a bit more sour.
>>>>
>>>> I was highly entertained by Jules, but that's what I remember it being
>>>> like.
>>>>
>>>> Yes, I think this stupid photo and the PLAYBOY "interview" would not
>>>> have
>>>> gotten ANY credibility back then.  The Jules thing was real, and
>>>> weird, and
>>>> interesting.  Not much on this list in the last year or two has even
>>>> come
>>>> close.
>>>>
>>>> -- Will
>>>>
>>>> On 6/25/05 7:22 PM, "jbor at bigpond.com" <jbor at bigpond.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> And, speaking of Pynchon apocrypha, it has always seemed odd that
>>>>> Jules
>>>>> Siegel provoked so much hostility, even, apparently, in the
>>>>> pre-"Lineland" era. From what little I've seen in the archives, 
>>>>> Jules,
>>>>> a friend of the author, was often coherent and polite. Why is it that
>>>>> his personal remembrances of Pynchon weren't palatable, where kooky
>>>>> Bugs Bunny teeth are (answers itself really), and hoaxes like the
>>>>> Japan
>>>>> Playboy "interview" or the Unabomber rumour are likewise just fine 
>>>>> and
>>>>> dandy, and woebetide anyone who dares question them? For a long time
>>>>> any time Jules's name was mentioned here there would be a sudden
>>>>> scourge of trollthrops and periphery-dwellers closing down the
>>>>> discussion. ... Moreso than usual, anyway.
>>>>>
>>>>> I've never seen or read _Lineland_, by the way. Just making
>>>>> conversation.
>>>>>
>>>>> best
>>>>>
>>>>> p.s. I'm going to put my money on the table and state the obvious: 
>>>>> the
>>>>> current "mittelwerk" and "terrance" are fake.
>>>>>
>>>>> On 25/06/2005, at 6:53 AM, jbor wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Yes. He ran a couple of the major group reads, and he ran them well.
>>>>>> In between times he was a pretty dab hand at sorting the wheat from
>>>>>> the chaff.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> best
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 25/06/2005, at 1:42 AM, Ghetta Life wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Well, A. Dinn didn't "run" the list, but he did "lead" it by the
>>>>>>> example of his manners and scholarship.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Ghetta
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
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