You never did the Kenosha Kid?

[Paul Mackin]

ruudsaurins at aol.com wrote:

> Hoy! Hoy!
>         A commonly employed medication named midazolam will sedate an 
> individual, but allow them to converse freely under a light degree of 
> sedation, but have profound amnesia of the time under sedation.  
> Giving more of the medication will reliably induce an unconscious 
> state.  What is unreliable is that if an individual is "willfully" 
> trying to maintain a deception, that under the influence of the 
> midazolam, he may or may not be "able" to maintain the deception, 
> prior to losing consciousness.   I am unaware of midazolam being 
> employed as a "truth serum", but I have no doubt whatsoever that it 
> has been tried.  The same holds true for other medications that are 
> much newer that sodium amytal, but that have similar pharmacodynamic 
> (there's a juicy whirred fur y'all) characteristics.  I have read 
> allegations of the use of slowly titrated muscle relaxants, which 
> gradually paralyze the ability to breathe an! d thereby elicit a sense 
> of panic and impending doom, also being used to elicit confessions ( 
> as per "truth serum").  Better living thru chemistry!
>                                                                truly,
>                                                                ruud
>  

Hi Ruud

It seems that chemistry is no more reliable than torture in getting at 
the truth.  Your conclusions seem to generally follow those of the 
literature search material  I  posted a couple days ago.  P has a lot of 
fun with the crackpot idea. He's at his best with crackpot ideas. 
Crackpot ideas are his subject a good part of the time.

I think that, at very least, the notion that Slothrop wants to or is 
actively trying to deceive anyone is a moot point.  Any deception the 
subject might wish to perpetrate would be swamped by the distortion of 
reality produced by the so called truth serum itself.  Besides,  the fat 
lieutenant is pretty clueless at this point in the book about what he 
might have to hide.

Robert has a right to his deception hypothesis but I think he's fighting 
a losing battle.   I too differ from some  mainline stuff that is 
written about this section of the book. For one thing, unlike McHoul and 
also Liberman, I don't think that the two page riff on the KK is part of 
the amytal session, although reference to it is made at the end of the 
session.  And I happen to agree with Robert that the KK business 
represents the contents of S's mind in a conscious state.  It's the 
memory of a dream from which he has just awakened. One doesn't remember 
the dream untill one wakes up.







>  
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Rcfchess at aol.com
> To: strongbool at gmail.com; pynchon-l at waste.org
> Sent: Fri, 2 Sep 2005 14:03:49 EDT
> Subject: Re: You never did the Kenosha Kid?
>
> Maybe I'm missing something here, but how does that "debunk" the 
> "mythos"? Seems to me that if anything it confirms it...?! According 
> to Kelberetc., the drug not only "extracted" the truth (as well as the 
> tooth; sorry about that) but he didn't even remember the experience; 
> isn't that what the "mythos" says...?
> RF
>  
> In a message dated 09/02/2005 12:57:42 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, 
> strongbool at gmail.com writes:
>
>     Well maybe you're just one of these weak-minded sorts...you know,
>     the type that is also susceptible to hypnosis or organized religion?
>
>     Personally I hate to see the mythos surrounding Sodium Amytol
>     debunked...it really is a handy plot device. 
>
>     On 9/2/05, *kelber at mindspring.com
>     <javascript:parent.ComposeTo('kelber at mindspring.com');>*
>     <kelber at mindspring.com
>     <javascript:parent.ComposeTo('kelber at mindspring.com');>> wrote:
>
>         Years ago, after graduating from college, I had my wisdom
>         teeth pulled. The dentist gave me an injection of what he
>         called "truth serum," which I assumed  to be sodium
>         pentathol.  He gave me the injection and I asked him how long
>         it would take and he told me it had already happened.  I
>         thought he was kidding, until I noticed my mouth was stuffed
>         full of bloody cotton.  There was absolutely no sensation of
>         grogginess or falling asleep.  From my point of view it had
>         been instantaneous.  But the dentist knew all about my career
>         goals, concerns, etc.  Apparently I had discussed the whole
>         thing very coherently while I was under.  I don't know whether
>         it was prompted by questions from the dentist, or if I was
>         just spilling my guts.  My guess is that the drug I got was
>         si! milar, if not identical to what Slothrop got.  It doesn't
>         necessarily mean that my experience of instantaneousness is
>         typical or that Pynchon was familiar with this type of experience.
>
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