Christian ideas refracted thru AtD: 1) Forgiveness (spoilers

[mikebailey at speakeasy.net]

the bouquet:
>From: bekah <bekah0176@[omitted]>

>
>Oh I loved it,  Mike.  It's a keeper for me - even if I may not go 
>along with ascribing "forgiveness" (or the futility of revenge?) 
>solely to a "Christian"  use,  I certainly appreciate the thematic 
>ideas.
>

thank you!  I'm sure these issues and much more will come out more thoroughly in the group read.  These may not be the ideas I end up with either, but the admixture of Christmas season with AtD provoked these notions.


...and the brickbat...
>forgiveness, vengefulness, kindness, charity, jealousy, etc. are human >emotions.  They may be described in the Bible, but that doesn't give >christianity dibs on them.  The cross became a symbol of christianity >because Christ (along with lots of others, unsung) was nailed to one.  >Why?  Because a cross is humanoid in shape.  Easier to nail someone to than, >say, a crescent.  Now any time someone stretches their arms out to their >sides to bring some cool air to their armpits, they become a "christ >figure."  I understand that a lot of writers and film directors deliberately >evoke these emotions and images for their christian symbolism.  But that >doesn't mean that's what Pynchon is driving at.  Sometimes revenge is a cry >for justice -- human justice.  I think the issue of whether Webb is a good >guy or a bad guy for dynamiting enemy targets IS a central issue in ATD.  >But that doesn't make it a battle between the Testaments.  Finding easy >christian symbolism in Pynchon's works reduces rather than enhances the >meaning.

Laura

--- in some ways, I couldn't agree more.  Thanks for pointing out some valid objections.  Though Christianity didn't invent and doesn't "own" forgiveness, it is a central tenet of the faith, and if it were practiced it would be a wonderful thing: even though the main mantra (Lord's Prayer) includes the stipulation, "forgive us our debts/trespasses AS WE forgive etc" --  the stress for many Christians, especially born-agains, is that THEY are forgiven, by some specific formula that others must replicate if they too wish forgiveness.  This leads directly to the elect-preterite problem: whosoever pronounces the shibboleth correctly and is in the in-crowd becomes an oppressor.  

Rather than easy, I personally find that linkage between Christianity and  Pynchon's treatment of an ethical problem leads to thoughts that are tricky for my limited abilities to comprehend or explicate.  Would you believe my actual thoughts are deeper than that, but I couldn't express them adequately? 

Also, I didn't aver that the Old & New Testaments conflicted after all on "revenge": the Old claims it for God, the new warns people against it, and Vineland has an impressive Emerson quote affirming the sentiment (that actually was an easy connection! But valid, no? )

Philosophies such as proposed by Deleuze and Guattari and critics of colonialism (whose work is also alluded to in Pynchon) may in fact represent a more advanced statement of ethics and provide a better handle for interpreting AtD. Also, those who can readily visualize the mathematical concepts may find these explain plot, symbolism, themes more satisfactorily.  

I hope to avoid offending by abstracting what I learned as important Christian principles, and considering them without stressing exclusive belief-in-miracles-damn-the-unbelievers dogma.  I obviously haven't been completely convincing in that regard.  

An easy Bible quote comes to mind: "Greater works than these shall ye do" and I am sure I will see better interpretations.   That's why I read the list.