A digression...

[John Carvill]

> On the other hand, Vineland is about so much more than the 60s.

Yes indeed! And my original post was about more than just this one
possible reference, it was just some speculation on a possible
Dylan-Pynchon connection, starting with whether or not Dylan & Pynchon
were acquainted (almost certainly), did they both attend Mimi Faez's
wedding (probably but can't find a definitive answer), what Pynchon's
view of Dylan was (in my view, probably not too favourable, due to Bob's
relations with Farina and the Baez sisters), and how this may or may not
have contributed to the fact that Dylan is seemingly absent from
Vineland while many other, much more minor, 60s icons are present.

I did say that "we might take a guess that it's a sly nod to Dylan on
Pynchon's part", rather than "surely this *has to be* a sly nod to Dylan
on Pynchon's part". I admit, as a Dylan fan, my antennae were more than
usually receptive to a possible Dylan reference, and I'm not determined
to impose one. 

But if I wanted to argue that Pynchon did get the 'toil and blood'
phrase from Dylan, rather than any of the other sources, I'd point to
the similarity in the way the phrase is used by Pynchon and Dylan: a
'world of toil and blood' being a lot closer to 'another lifetime, one
of toil and blood' than it is to, say, 'the toil and blood and treasure,
that it will cost us'.

>  I guess I'm with Joe here:...

Well, I'm not against Joe! And he's certainly right that there's every
possibility that Pynchon came up with 'toil and blood' independently.
Alternatively, there's the possibility that both Dylan and Pynchon took
the phrase from the same source, which would constitute another little
Pynchon-Dylan connection.

Cheers
JC




 




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