ATDTDA (18): 493 -

[Heikki Raudaskoski]

I'd say AtD is not anti-decadent. The point can be made that TRP's early
works are for atavistic fertility and "productive" sexuality and against
decadence and barrenness (see e.g. Catherine Stimpson's "Pre-Apocalyptic
Atavism: TP's Early Fiction" in the Levine&Leverenz collection). But the
ripe TRP seems to have gone Wilde. In AtD, Cyprian's kind of feminity is
as good as any.

Heikki


On Thu, 27 Sep 2007 kelber at mindspring.com wrote:

> Someone (Mark Kohut?) pointed out that decadence is generally a bad thing in TRP's books.  There seems to be a distinction between hedonism and decadence:
>
>
> hedonism:	1. Pursuit of or devotion to pleasure, especially to the pleasures of the senses. 2. Philosophy The ethical doctrine holding that only what is pleasant or has pleasant consequences is intrinsically good. 3. Psychology The doctrine holding that behavior is motivated by the desire for pleasure and the avoidance of pain.
> ETYMOLOGY:	Greek hdon, pleasure; see swd- in Appendix I + –ism.
>
> decadence:NOUN:	1. A process, condition, or period of deterioration or decline, as in morals or art; decay. 2. often Decadence A literary movement especially of late 19th-century France and England characterized by refined aestheticism, artifice, and the quest for new sensations.
> ETYMOLOGY:	French décadence, from Old French decadence, from Medieval Latin dcadentia, a decaying, declining, from Vulgar Latin *dcadere, to decay. See decay.
>
> By these definitions, hedonism is moral, in and of itself, or at least morally neutral; decadence is immoral.
>
> By TRP's definition, and probably ours, decadence is something that's practiced by the rich, the elite, the preterite.  Yashmeen, Cyprian and their Cambridge friends, by virtue of their class, should be decadent.  But Y and C are clearly not meant to be bad guys.  What about the scene with Kit Traverse, having a sexual encounter involving whips with one of the Vibe females.  Decadence or hedonism? Can the Traverse boys, with their working-class roots (or any working-class person) be decadent?
>
> The distinction seems starkest in GR:  Slothrop is merrily engaged in sex and drugs through most of the book:  a lovable hedonist.  But on the Anubis, he partakes first in the orgy, then has sex (real or imagined?) with 12-year-old Bianca.  These are the most disturbing scenes involving Slothrop, because he clearly crosses the line from hedonism to decadence (merely by boarding the Anubis?)
>
> Laura
>
> -----Original Message-----
> >From: John BAILEY <JBAILEY at theage.com.au>
>
> >"Are you a nice mathematician?"
> >
> >
> >
> >"Or a naughty one?"
> >
> >
> >
> >Given this chapter's emphasis on the decadence of Cambridge and
> >university life in general - opium beer, patent wallpaper, bestiality,
> >polysexuality and masochism - it would be hard to imagine "good" and
> >"bad" as terms which find much purchase, and they'd therefore need to be
> >replaced by less moralistic, more instrumental terms such as "nice" and
> >"naughty".
> >
>
>
>