atdtda: 31 - pg 869

[Mark Kohut]

laura,
   
  You and I may distinctly differ on revenge, Webb and his sons.  
  Yes, TRP has some sympathy for them but not totally, I say. Especially not in their revenge. Their selves and ends show 'the sins of the father' , mostly to me.
   
  A-and, the good-guy torturer chills me. I cannot imagine, my lack if so, TRP justifying it in any way. Had it just been 'justice', there would not be any cruel and unusual punishment.   So, I read V(astrolov)'s rationalization as some kind of self-condemnation from TRPs perspective.......weakly called 'irony'.....
   
  I think that his "symmetry of insult" as "a state of grace".........................sure does mean something to TRP.....
   
  Mark
   
  

kelber at mindspring.com wrote:
  Maybe what TRP admires (via Cyprian) about Zlatko is not so much his vengefulness as his passion. Even Frank, when he guns down Sloat, doesn't exhibit a whole lot of passion. The American characters (The Traverse boys, Dally, Merle, Lew, even Webb) are all pretty solid on their feet, easy-going types -- not a hysteric among them. They're certainly not inclined towards passion or mysticism (other than being dragged into various quests by Yashmeen, TWIT, et al). TRP seems to like both traditions -- he considers all of these characters to be good guys (even Webb, although I know some might disagree with that).

There are two points of comparison between Old World and New World sensibilities coming up in this section:

1. Torture. On p. 874, Vastroslav explains the difference between good-guy torturers and bad-guy torturers:

"'Whenever you people torture, you merely try to cripple ...To leave some mark of imbalance. We prefer a symmetry of insult - to confer a state of grace. To mark the soul.'"

The fines points of this distinction are certainly lost on me, but they mean something to TRP. What's so fuckin' great about symmetry? Compare this with what happens to Webb on p. 197-8. Deuce and Sloat are bad-guy torturers:

p. 198: "He [Webb] sought Sloat's eyes with his one undamaged one ..." 

Why doesn't good-guy Webb tortured to death by bad guys deserve the same passionate revenge that Vlado (whom we barely get to know) does? Are Americans incapable of passion? Why is that a good thing?

2. The triangles.

Bad triangle: Deuce-Lake-Sloat. Bad because the third leg of the triangle isn't completed? Bad because Lake is the zero-point on a standard Cartesian coordinate at Four Corners. The old, rigid, non-mystical Euclidian geometry? Bad because it's barren.

Good triangle: Yashmeen-Cyprian-Reef. All sides connected, mystical, like the Tetractys, life-affirming (i.e. pregnancy -inducing).

Laura



-----Original Message-----
>From: Mark Kohut 

>
>Very thought-provoking post......deeper universal, human themes.....
> 
> My first thoughts are that Pynchon IS pissed-off (great literary critical term--really. smile) at Revenge by both sets of parties.........................
> 
> I think the Passion found in revenging Vlado's death is the way it happens out of his land----see that stuff on history in Rebeccah West and Balkan's Ghost---but, as is seen in these books and in History is an endless cycle of retributive death for death
> Prince and Cyprian here are 'working'.......in the corrupt world they have to survive in. Not good. 
> 
> And Reef and Kit's 'revenge" is so piss-poor because it ain't exactly Hamlet's "justice"---which ends in his death anyway. 
> 
> revenge is some kind of deep theme in TRP isn't it?.....it is the name of the play in CofL49.....does it underlay War as the metaphor in GR?.....it is here in AtD importantly......
> 
> Mr 2 cents
> 
> 
>kelber at mindspring.com wrote:

>
>Something that caught my attention on p. 869:
>
>The discussion between the Prince and Cyprian about finding someone to avenge Vlado's death:
>
>"'I have recently returned,' said Cyprian carefully,'from a place where it is much more difficult, at least
>for the great Powers, to subvert personal honor. A place less developed no doubt than the sophisticated
>cultures of the West, still naive, if not quite innocent.'"
>
>Cyprian eventually recruits Vlado's cousin, Zlatko.
>
>Now all of this seems to be kind of a slap in the face to Reef and Kit. It could certainly be argued that 
>they spring from a place "less developed" rather than from the "sophisticated cultures of the West," 
>(a nice play on the meaning of "West"). So why don't they have the same passion to avenge their father's death. Although they can't be bought off (Vibe tries this strategy with Kit), they're easily diverted. Not much passion in evidence. So we get Cyprian-Zlatko-passion-revenge-less-developed (anarchistic) = good, 
>and Reef-Kit- no passion-no revenge- less developed (anarchistic) - seduced by sophisticated culture? also = good. Why isn't TRP more pissed off at Reef and Kit's behavior? Are they meant to be reflections through 
>Iceland Spar of the noble passion of Cyprian and Zlatko?
>
>Laura
>



       
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