atdtda: 31 - pg 869

[kelber at mindspring.com]

Bekah, I think your Mafia analogy is a good one.  Although clear bad guys, Mafiosi are simulataneously romanticized (The Godfather), treated with humorous affection (Analyze This) or both (The Sopranos).  Goodfellas is my favorite mob flick.  It just makes them look scary.  Anyway, TRP's portrayal of the Uskoks seems scary/romantic.

I disagree with Mark about TRP's feelings towards the Traverse family.  I think he sees them as solid good guys, including Webb; their anarchistic and vengeful activities as romantic.

Laura

-----Original Message-----
>From: Bekah <Bekah0176 at sbcglobal.net>


>
>I sense that the Uskok's are more like the American "mob," the  
>Mafia,  in some ways.  The Uskok's passion may be a Southern European  
>type passion - very exotic to Pynchons and cowboys.
>
>And I was going to mention the symmetry lines ( in my post but I forgot.
>
>874.16   "'Whenever you people torture, you merely try to  
>cripple ...To leave some mark of imbalance.  We prefer a symmetry of  
>insult - to confer a state of grace.  To mark the soul.'"
>
>Perhaps I forgot because I can't figure it out.   But he's not  
>speaking to Reef or Kit,  Vastroslav is talking to Theign, old  
>Europe, without allegiance at all and with  no revenge or vengeance  
>in mind.   That might make a difference.
>
>Bekah
>
>
>On Apr 27, 2008, at 10:25 AM, kelber at mindspring.com wrote:
>
>> Maybe what TRP admires (via Cyprian) about Zlatko is not so much  
>> his vengefulness as his passion.  Even Frank, when he guns down  
>> Sloat, doesn't exhibit a whole lot of passion.  The American  
>> characters (The Traverse boys, Dally, Merle, Lew, even Webb) are  
>> all pretty solid on their feet, easy-going types -- not a hysteric  
>> among them.  They're certainly not inclined towards passion or  
>> mysticism (other than being dragged into various quests by  
>> Yashmeen, TWIT, et al).  TRP seems to like both traditions --  he  
>> considers all of these characters to be good guys (even Webb,  
>> although I know some might disagree with that).
>>
>> There are two points of comparison between Old World and New World  
>> sensibilities coming up in this section:
>>
>> 1.  Torture.  On p. 874, Vastroslav explains the difference between  
>> good-guy torturers and bad-guy torturers:
>>
>> "'Whenever you people torture, you merely try to cripple ...To  
>> leave some mark of imbalance.  We prefer a symmetry of insult - to  
>> confer a state of grace.  To mark the soul.'"
>>
>> The fines points of this distinction are certainly lost on me, but  
>> they mean something to TRP.  What's so fuckin' great about  
>> symmetry?  Compare this with what happens to Webb on p. 197-8.   
>> Deuce and Sloat are bad-guy torturers:
>>
>> p. 198:  "He [Webb] sought Sloat's eyes with his one undamaged  
>> one ..."
>>
>> Why doesn't good-guy Webb tortured to death by bad guys deserve the  
>> same passionate revenge that Vlado (whom we barely get to know)  
>> does?  Are Americans incapable of passion?  Why is that a good thing?
>>
>> 2.  The triangles.
>>
>> Bad triangle:  Deuce-Lake-Sloat.  Bad because the third leg of the  
>> triangle isn't completed?  Bad because Lake is the zero-point on a  
>> standard Cartesian coordinate at Four Corners.  The old, rigid, non- 
>> mystical Euclidian geometry?  Bad because it's barren.
>>
>> Good triangle:  Yashmeen-Cyprian-Reef.  All sides connected,  
>> mystical, like the Tetractys, life-affirming (i.e. pregnancy - 
>> inducing).
>>
>> Laura
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Mark Kohut <markekohut at yahoo.com>
>>
>>>
>>> Very thought-provoking post......deeper universal, human themes.....
>>>
>>>  My first thoughts are that Pynchon IS pissed-off (great literary  
>>> critical term--really. smile) at Revenge by both sets of  
>>> parties.........................
>>>
>>>  I think the Passion found in revenging Vlado's death is the way  
>>> it happens out of his land----see that stuff on history in  
>>> Rebeccah West and Balkan's Ghost---but, as is seen in these books  
>>> and in History is an endless cycle of retributive death for death
>>>  Prince and Cyprian here are 'working'.......in the corrupt world  
>>> they have to survive in. Not good.
>>>
>>>  And Reef and Kit's 'revenge" is so piss-poor because it ain't  
>>> exactly Hamlet's "justice"---which ends in his death anyway.
>>>
>>>  revenge is some kind of deep theme in TRP isn't it?.....it is the  
>>> name of the play in CofL49.....does it underlay War as the  
>>> metaphor in GR?.....it is here in AtD importantly......
>>>
>>>  Mr 2 cents
>>>
>>>
>>> kelber at mindspring.com wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Something that caught my attention on p. 869:
>>>
>>> The discussion between the Prince and Cyprian about finding  
>>> someone to avenge Vlado's death:
>>>
>>> "'I have recently returned,' said Cyprian carefully,'from a place  
>>> where it is much more difficult, at least
>>> for the great Powers, to subvert personal honor. A place less  
>>> developed no doubt than the sophisticated
>>> cultures of the West, still naive, if not quite innocent.'"
>>>
>>> Cyprian eventually recruits Vlado's cousin, Zlatko.
>>>
>>> Now all of this seems to be kind of a slap in the face to Reef and  
>>> Kit. It could certainly be argued that
>>> they spring from a place "less developed" rather than from the  
>>> "sophisticated cultures of the West,"
>>> (a nice play on the meaning of "West"). So why don't they have the  
>>> same passion to avenge their father's death. Although they can't  
>>> be bought off (Vibe tries this strategy with Kit), they're easily  
>>> diverted. Not much passion in evidence. So we get Cyprian-Zlatko- 
>>> passion-revenge-less-developed (anarchistic) = good,
>>> and Reef-Kit- no passion-no revenge- less developed (anarchistic)  
>>> - seduced by sophisticated culture? also = good. Why isn't TRP  
>>> more pissed off at Reef and Kit's behavior? Are they meant to be  
>>> reflections through
>>> Iceland Spar of the noble passion of Cyprian and Zlatko?
>>>
>>> Laura
>>>
>>
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