Trieste goes downhill.....

Thu Jan 24 19:30:54 CST 2008

Janos,

Thanks for the light (AtD allusion intended). I know almost nothing about the history here, but I am trying to see how Pynchon might be seeing it.

That the Miltary Frontier was non-existent does, I think, support your "dreamworld" obs very strongly.....I assumed the basic facts were otherwise.....the Neo-Uskoks are not only paranoid, but out of touch with reality and riding a lost vision of the past.(1)

I do think TRP is making the point from within his 'vision'  that "The Macedonian Question" involved fighting over land that had long existed under
one "natural" peoples?.....How do you see that possibility?

Mark

1). I made this as a kind of footnote because it came to me after I wrote the above.  ( is THIS more of 
TRPs point about much of History?...waging wars over lost visions of the past?)

----- Original Message ----
From: János Székely <miksaapja at gmail.com>
To: Mark Kohut <markekohut at yahoo.com>
Cc: pynchon -l <pynchon-l at waste.org>
Sent: Thursday, January 24, 2008 2:47:54 PM
Subject: Re: Trieste goes downhill.....

Mark,

yes, maybe this is the way Pynchon sees it; I just wanted to say that Trieste would have remained one of the no-name Adriatic towns if it didn't offer itself to the then not-so-powerful Habsburgs in the late 14th century. (It was either Venice or the Hungarian Kingdom then, and Trieste chose the third option to keep afloat).

The point is that the Military Frontier, having had lost its raison d'etre, was non-existent by the time Cyprian arrives on the scene. (Going to fix it in the Wiki.) So Pynchon may suggest that the Neo-Uskoks are living in some anachronistic millenary dreamworld (note the Gnostic imagery in "sparks" and "deliverance to light"). Definitely there were no implications for the Macedonian Question. Which seems to be even more complicated than today's Balkan conflicts. It appears to be one of those situations in which the best solution is to preserve the unjust status quo. Young and dynamic Bulgaria wanted national unity with its West Macedonian Slavic brethren, who spoke a dialect close to Bulgarian Bulgarian,  but as far as I know, they considered themselves to be Macedonians and  part of the just-reborn Bulgarian nation. On the other hand, Bulgaria wanted an exit to the Aegean Sea in East Macedonia, which was a multiethnic region, with only a small
 Bulgarian minority. Greece also wanted East Macedonia on an ethnic and historical basis, while Serbia aspired to West Macedonia. So it looked quite reasonable not to change anything, and let the whole region remain with Ottoman Turkey (which was the "Sick Man of Europe" anyway).

2008/1/24, Mark Kohut <markekohut at yahoo.com>: 
Janos,

I think you must be right about Trieste's cosmopolitanism at this point in time. I have always heard/read that. When I said that Trieste was "a nodal point", I was thinking it was then, as a consequence of its rich past, at its peak. But, the 'decline'--moral decline--  started when it became part of The Empire. Actual dates would be 'rough guides' to such a take on its history.

I also agree that "obvious implications" is ironic--surely I did not feel it as you did, since I want to trust "the narrator" more than I should sometimes--- but I might still suggest that it supports the notion of historical decline. Just because they are a paranoid group which mans watchtowers along the Military Frontier does not mean the history behind it is not relevant to TRPs vision. 

We know THAT about the paranoids in his fiction, it seems?

Or am I missiing ALL THE IRONY?.....in which case I don't get this part of the text.

Mark

----- Original Message ----
From: János Székely <miksaapja at gmail.com>
To: Mark Kohut < markekohut at yahoo.com>
Cc: pynchon -l < pynchon-l at waste.org>
Sent: Thursday, January 24, 2008 3:17:50 AM
Subject: Re: Trieste goes downhill.....

Well I think Trieste was never as open and cosmopolitan as in Joyce's and Svevo's time. "Obvious implications for the Macedonian Question" seems to be sheer irony as there was simply no chance for "Turkish indundation" in the Adriatic region. The "dedicated cadre" of New Uskoks are full-blown paranoids. 

2008/1/23, Mark Kohut <markekohut at yahoo.com>: 
Yes, uphill in many important ways. BUT

My suggestion , however, is this:
Pynchon's vison embraces the sea and seaports.
 Pynchon's vision, of course, loves freedom--- NOT being under an Empire, especially Austro-Hungarian.

And Pynchon's vision does not embrace railways and coal. Nor anything Austrian.

I suggest that for Pynchon, Trieste used to be a good place, historically, full of an "anarchic" mix of peoples, trading
and travelling on the seas, living Stateless, so to speak...

I suggest that Cyprian on the docks is working at a nodal point in Trieste's
history....

----- Original Message ----
From: János Székely < miksaapja at gmail.com>
To: Mark Kohut <markekohut at yahoo.com>
Cc: pynchon -l < pynchon-l at waste.org>
Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2008 1:00:48 PM
Subject: Re: Trieste goes downhill..... 

Uphill, rather. 
Trieste wilingly sought the Habsburgs' protection in the 14th century, and from then on, it benefited from being Austria's only major seaport, especially with the decilne of Venice as a political and economic power. As for autonomy, it was a Free Imperial City until the Empire existed. 

2008/1/22, Mark Kohut <markekohut at yahoo.com>: 
Michael Bailey wrote:

"Trieste - on the back of the top (northeast) of the boot of Italy ,
on the border of Slovenia.  James Joyce was teaching English
there from 1904-1915, give or take, off and on... 
port, crossroads, cultural centre, part of the Austro-Hungarian 
Empire until WWI

---Cyprian is monitoring the docks"

"Trieste - on the back of the top (northeast) of the boot of Italy,

The city's role as the principal Austrian commercial port and shipbuilding center was later emphasized by the foundation of the Austrian Lloyd merchant shipping line in 1836, whose headquarters stood at the corner of the Piazza Grande and Sanita. By 1913 Austrian Lloyd had a fleet of 62 ships comprising a total of 236,000 tons. [1]
The modern Austro-Hungarian Navy also used Trieste's shipbuilding facilities and as a base. The construction of the first major trunk railway in the Empire, the Vienna-Trieste Austrian Southern Railway , was completed in 1857, a valuable asset for trade and the supply of coal." 
_____________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Trieste, virtually autonomous politically until the 17th Century............devolves, descends, to this........................................

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