From markekohut at yahoo.com Tue Jul 1 06:49:12 2008 From: markekohut at yahoo.com (Mark Kohut) Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2008 04:49:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: NP "The morning of June 27th was clear and sunny..." In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <578717.32440.qm@web38403.mail.mud.yahoo.com> I have learned from the book Something for Nothing that a society known as the Frisians did carry out a human sacrifice via lottery.............. --- On Wed, 6/25/08, Tara Brady wrote: From: Tara Brady Subject: NP "The morning of June 27th was clear and sunny..." To: "Pynchlist" Date: Wednesday, June 25, 2008, 4:46 PM Mind the rocks. http://www.classicshorts.com/stories/lotry.html -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From markekohut at yahoo.com Tue Jul 1 06:51:22 2008 From: markekohut at yahoo.com (Mark Kohut) Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2008 04:51:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: NP: James Joyce, The Music Message-ID: <500926.12487.qm@web38402.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- On Tue, 7/1/08, Mark Kohut wrote: From: Mark Kohut Subject: Fwd: [ArtsJournal: Daily Arts News] Recommendation: James Joyce, The Music To: "Peter Cleland" , "Brad Andrews" , markekohut at yahoo.com Date: Tuesday, July 1, 2008, 7:21 AM ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Date: Tue, Jul 1, 2008 at 7:18 AM Subject: [ArtsJournal: Daily Arts News] Recommendation: James Joyce, The Music To: mark.kohut at gmail.com mkohut at hotmail.com has sent you a link! Title: James Joyce, The Music Link: http://www.artsjournal.com/artsjournal1/2008/06/james_joyce_the.shtml -- Mark Kohut (& Associates) 63 Western Ave. Jersey City, NJ 07307 646-519-1956 201-795-9388 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From daniel.julius at gmail.com Tue Jul 1 07:33:28 2008 From: daniel.julius at gmail.com (Daniel Julius) Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2008 07:33:28 -0500 Subject: NP "The morning of June 27th was clear and sunny..." In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thank you! Will brighten up my free-ish afternoon On Wed, Jun 25, 2008 at 3:46 PM, Tara Brady wrote: > > Mind the rocks. > > http://www.classicshorts.com/stories/lotry.html > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From scuffling at gmail.com Tue Jul 1 09:45:21 2008 From: scuffling at gmail.com (Henry) Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2008 10:45:21 -0400 Subject: Sundogs References: <000d01c8d95a$3439b3e0$9cad1ba0$@com> <435769.69068.qm@web38406.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <79e49fac0806301504w45088d53k1730b13e357b7c9d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <002501c8db89$1937a9e0$4ba6fda0$@com> Sundog on the Tundra: http://tinyurl.com/57oc99 A solar phenomenon known as a sundog arcs over the tundra in Churchill, Manitoba, Canada. Sundogs are fairly common occurrences in the Arctic and Antarctic. They form when the sun is near the horizon and ice crystals high in the sky line up in a way that bends the solar rays like a prism HENRY MU Information, Media, and Technology Consultant http://my.barackobama.com/page/event/detail/4gddt From richard.romeo at gmail.com Tue Jul 1 10:23:24 2008 From: richard.romeo at gmail.com (rich) Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2008 11:23:24 -0400 Subject: NP "The morning of June 27th was clear and sunny..." In-Reply-To: <578717.32440.qm@web38403.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <578717.32440.qm@web38403.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <830c13f40807010823v22d2a506md634cbe50986d62@mail.gmail.com> Something for Nothing...hmm...song from that R.U.S.H. rich On Tue, Jul 1, 2008 at 7:49 AM, Mark Kohut wrote: > I have learned from the book Something for Nothing that a society known as > the Frisians > > did carry out a human sacrifice via lottery.............. > > --- On Wed, 6/25/08, Tara Brady wrote: > > From: Tara Brady > Subject: NP "The morning of June 27th was clear and sunny..." > To: "Pynchlist" > Date: Wednesday, June 25, 2008, 4:46 PM > > > Mind the rocks. > > http://www.classicshorts.com/stories/lotry.html > > > > > > From scuffling at gmail.com Tue Jul 1 16:55:23 2008 From: scuffling at gmail.com (Henry) Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2008 17:55:23 -0400 Subject: NP(R) You Must Read This Message-ID: <000001c8dbc5$2b1759d0$81460d70$@com> You Must Read This http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5432412 Hilter's Coming; Time for Cocktails and Gossip July 1, 2008 · Jonathan Raban remembers his first encounter with the aging, aimless socialites of Evelyn Waugh's Put Out More Flags, a novel of cocktails, clandestine affairs and the looming threat of World War II. An Unflinching, 'Street' View of the American Dream by Gretchen Holbrook Gerzina June 16, 2008 · Twenty years ago, author and literature professor Gretchen Holbrook Gerzina was looking for an undiscovered classic for her African-American-fiction class. What she found was Ann Petry's The Street, and she's been teaching it ever since. 'Golden Memories' of Father-Daughter Bonding by Jen Lancaster June 15, 2008 · As a teenager, the scariest person in Jen Lancaster's life wasn't Freddie Krueger or Michael Myers, but Ronald Lancaster, her father — until the night they laughed themselves silly, courtesy of Jean Shepherd. Pain, Betrayal and Love in Old Russia by Ursula Le Guin June 6, 2008 · Doctor Zhivago offers a day-by-day portrait of the lives of ordinary Russians through the Revolution of 1917. Nearly 40 years after reading it for the first time, Ursula Le Guin credits Boris Pasternak's sweeping epic for making her the novelist she is today. A Slow, Glorious Trip Down the Mississippi by Tony Horwitz May 23, 2008 · Tony Horwitz revels in the meandering adventures and wry observations of Old Glory, Jonathan Raban's story of floating "like a piece of human driftwood" through the heart of America. Belly Laughs — and Wampas — in 'Expertise' by Mary Roach May 14, 2008 · Real out-loud laughter may be uncommon among adults, says Mary Roach, but she cracked up upon cracking open John Hodgman's The Areas of My Expertise. Even Hodgman's list of "Jokes That Have Never Produced Laughter" proved funny. Taking Comfort in a 'Four-Story' Escape by Marisa de los Santos May 5, 2008 · Author Marisa de los Santos recalls the worries of her childhood, and the escape she found in The Four-Story Mistake, Elizabeth Enright's tale of four siblings living with their father and a housekeeper in a big, rambling house in the country. The Disquieting Resonance of 'The Quiet American' by Pico Iyer April 21, 2008 · Can we learn from our past mistakes? Pico Iyer finds modern meaning in Graham Greene's novel about a naive American who arrives in a foreign place full of ideas about democracy, and how he can teach an ancient culture a better, "American" way of doing things. History Made Real in 'April Morning' by Sally Gunning April 18, 2008 · On April 19, 1775, a shot rang out on Lexington Green and the Revolutionary War began. Historical novelist Sally Gunning remembers the first time she read April Morning, Howard Fast's fictional account of the day, and the lasting impression the book had on her. Finding a Familiar Loneliness in 'The Yearling' by Lois Lowry April 10, 2008 · Lois Lowry was 8 years old when she first encountered the loneliness and desperate poverty of the Baxter family in Marjorie Kinnan Rawlings' book, The Yearling. Brutality and Redemption in 'Sacred Hunger' by Ethan Canin March 24, 2008 · Sacred Hunger, a brutal portrait of human ruthlessness and redemption set on an 18th century slaving ship, inspired Ethan Canin to expand his ambitions as a writer. In 'Dracula,' a Metaphor for Faith and Rebirth by John Marks March 21, 2008 · Though his faith has waned over the years, author John Marks finds a metaphor for his own struggle with belief in the shadowy, invisible world of Bram Stoker's Dracula. Finding Balance and Pleasure in 'The House of Mirth' by Mireille Guiliano March 11, 2008 · As a young woman living in Paris in 1968, author Mireille Guiliano found friendship — and frustration — in Lily Bart, Edith Wharton's naïve, self-interested heroine who struggles to make decisions that are in her self-interest. Darkness and Light in 'The Secret Garden' by Sloane Crosley February 20, 2008 · Sloane Crosley loves winter, which may explain her particular affection for the mysterious, hidden garden in Frances Hodgson Burnett's dark children's classic. 'Brooklyn' Renders an Imperfect World, Perfectly by Peggy Orenstein February 18, 2008 · As a girl, Peggy Orenstein may have spent her summers in Wisconsin, but her heart was often farther east. She recounts her love for Betty Smith's A Tree Grows in Brooklyn and its hard, touching lessons about the difference between what is right and what is true. HENRY MU Information, Media, and Technology Consultant http://my.barackobama.com/page/community/blog_rss/henrymu/ From isread at btinternet.com Tue Jul 1 23:02:00 2008 From: isread at btinternet.com (Paul Nightingale) Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2008 05:02:00 +0100 Subject: Atdtda28: Not much, 779 Message-ID: <000001c8dbf8$611ad560$23508020$@com> A brief statement that says both 'everything' and 'nothing'. Nothing escapes the "heavenwide blast", but the sentence itself, taken in isolation, escapes understanding beyond the most literal. The words have denotative power in that they are self-referential; until we read on, however, we're none the wiser. The previous chapter ended where it began, with "the perfect clarity" (768), subsequently "the purity, the fierce, shining purity" (778) of Baikal; and there is a nod towards "what was nearly upon them". The current chapter's opening sentence might send us back to the previous page, where the fast-forward of the final sentence ("... as he would understand later") looks to a point in time beyond the narrative present. Unless and until there comes an edition that prints 55.1 on a page by itself, it must be difficult to read the opening sentence without simultaneously glancing down the page to the precision of the opening to 55.2, where the reader can begin to "understand later". From isread at btinternet.com Tue Jul 1 23:18:58 2008 From: isread at btinternet.com (Paul Nightingale) Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2008 05:18:58 +0100 Subject: Atdtda28: Society and syntax, 779-780 Message-ID: <000101c8dbfa$c029f020$407dd060$@com> If indeed 55.1 can be considered opaque, 55.2 begins with the precision of a date: without, at this time, reading further ahead, we might be able to make sense of the "heavenwide blast". An enlightenment (cap E?) of sorts. The first paragraph begins with Padzhitnoff ("working ... as a contract employee") before making it clear that the reference includes his crew as well; and then we return to Padzhitnoff's plans for the masonry (such references always invoking Ch1's "lavatorial assaults" on 5; and further down the page on 779 we do come to Heaven's mandate). Subsequently, we might suppose that "the cringers and climbers at all levels of Razvedka" are described from Padzhitnoff's pov, all of which serves as a reminder that, in the spy game, there are footsoldiers and bloody bureaucrats. The previous chapter ended with faceless men in Whitehall and (the possibility of) good money (not in fact confirmed by Prance, although his "laughter ... seemed to go on for an unnaturally long time", 778); here, Padzhitnoff (and crew) are being paid "at the exorbitant end of spy-budget outlays" (779), even if "their spiritual ease" has been left unsatisfied. The first paragraph contains a lengthy, somewhat unruly, not always grammatically sound, sentence, one that draws attention to itself (as indeed did the heavenwide blast), clause following clause, connections being made, however 'clumsily', ie arbitrarily, something akin to a jump-cut, perhaps? Or, as with "stumbl[ing] blindly" (780), the loss of (another kind of) order? The opening ("Accordingly the great ship ...", 779) links together "captain and crew" as one, denying any other possible meaning to the captain's name. The collective weight gain runs into the masonry bombs, and the need for ballast sees the crew identified in its entirety with the airship, hence "weight control" is part and parcel of aeronautics and a nod in the direction of scientific management. The loss of individuality here leads to the new paragraph's reference to "cringers and climbers" etc, God's abandonment of Russia perhaps a view shared by Padzhitnoff (and crew), perhaps not. Heaven's mandate, moreover, means a loss of certainty: reference to "any peasant's struggle with the day" (top of 780) invokes a social order in stark contrast to the rational organisation that, supposedly, characterises bureaucracy (ie 'closed' rather than 'open', the latter featuring "nouveau riche fur traders", 779). Moreover, if we accept that Padzhitnoff & co stand in for the Chums, then we might recall the way the opening chapters established the Chums in terms of hierarchy and bureaucracy). From rfiero at gmail.com Wed Jul 2 00:21:11 2008 From: rfiero at gmail.com (Richard Fiero) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2008 21:21:11 -0800 Subject: 100 Years Since Tunguska Message-ID: <486b0239.1e068e0a.4c94.ffff895d@mx.google.com> http://www.fas.org/blog/secrecy/2008/06/tunguska.html Monday, June 30 marks the 100th anniversary of the Tunguska incident in 1908, in which a meteor or comet fragment entered the atmosphere over Tunguska in Siberia producing an enormous explosion. We know that a rather massive body flew into the atmosphere of our planet, said Boris Shustov of the Russian Academy of Sciences. It measured 40 to 60 meters in diameter. Clearly, it did not consist of iron, otherwise it would have certainly reached the earth. The body decelerated in the atmosphere, the deceleration being very abrupt, so the whole energy of this body flying with a velocity of more than 20 meters per second [probably should be: kilometers per second] was released, which resulted in a mid-air explosion, very similar to a thermonuclear blast, he told Tass news agency yesterday. . . . Impacts such as the Tunguska incident are thought to occur about once in one hundred years based on the density of impact craters on the Moon, according to a White Paper on Planetary Defense attached to the 1994 U.S. Air Force report Spacecast 2020. A 2007 NASA summary report to Congress on planetary defense is here [pdf]. A longer account is here [pdf]. From markekohut at yahoo.com Wed Jul 2 05:36:24 2008 From: markekohut at yahoo.com (Mark Kohut) Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2008 03:36:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Atdtda28: Society and syntax, 779-780 In-Reply-To: <000101c8dbfa$c029f020$407dd060$@com> Message-ID: <969534.30047.qm@web38407.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Re Russia and America......might suggest many observers said that in the daily manifestation, the hierarchies were alike, despite their opposing social foundations--in the Cold War anyway.... --- On Wed, 7/2/08, Paul Nightingale wrote: From: Paul Nightingale Subject: Atdtda28: Society and syntax, 779-780 To: pynchon-l at waste.org Date: Wednesday, July 2, 2008, 12:18 AM If indeed 55.1 can be considered opaque, 55.2 begins with the precision of a date: without, at this time, reading further ahead, we might be able to make sense of the "heavenwide blast". An enlightenment (cap E?) of sorts. The first paragraph begins with Padzhitnoff ("working ... as a contract employee") before making it clear that the reference includes his crew as well; and then we return to Padzhitnoff's plans for the masonry (such references always invoking Ch1's "lavatorial assaults" on 5; and further down the page on 779 we do come to Heaven's mandate). Subsequently, we might suppose that "the cringers and climbers at all levels of Razvedka" are described from Padzhitnoff's pov, all of which serves as a reminder that, in the spy game, there are footsoldiers and bloody bureaucrats. The previous chapter ended with faceless men in Whitehall and (the possibility of) good money (not in fact confirmed by Prance, although his "laughter ... seemed to go on for an unnaturally long time", 778); here, Padzhitnoff (and crew) are being paid "at the exorbitant end of spy-budget outlays" (779), even if "their spiritual ease" has been left unsatisfied. The first paragraph contains a lengthy, somewhat unruly, not always grammatically sound, sentence, one that draws attention to itself (as indeed did the heavenwide blast), clause following clause, connections being made, however 'clumsily', ie arbitrarily, something akin to a jump-cut, perhaps? Or, as with "stumbl[ing] blindly" (780), the loss of (another kind of) order? The opening ("Accordingly the great ship ...", 779) links together "captain and crew" as one, denying any other possible meaning to the captain's name. The collective weight gain runs into the masonry bombs, and the need for ballast sees the crew identified in its entirety with the airship, hence "weight control" is part and parcel of aeronautics and a nod in the direction of scientific management. The loss of individuality here leads to the new paragraph's reference to "cringers and climbers" etc, God's abandonment of Russia perhaps a view shared by Padzhitnoff (and crew), perhaps not. Heaven's mandate, moreover, means a loss of certainty: reference to "any peasant's struggle with the day" (top of 780) invokes a social order in stark contrast to the rational organisation that, supposedly, characterises bureaucracy (ie 'closed' rather than 'open', the latter featuring "nouveau riche fur traders", 779). Moreover, if we accept that Padzhitnoff & co stand in for the Chums, then we might recall the way the opening chapters established the Chums in terms of hierarchy and bureaucracy). -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From robert_mahnke at earthlink.net Wed Jul 2 08:55:33 2008 From: robert_mahnke at earthlink.net (Robert Mahnke) Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2008 09:55:33 -0400 (GMT-04:00) Subject: Pynchon in Newsweek Message-ID: <7322137.1215006934349.JavaMail.root@elwamui-polski.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Google tells me that this has something to do with Pynchon, but I can't get the page to load this morning: http://www.newsweek.com/id/44686 Maybe one of you will have better luck.... From markekohut at yahoo.com Wed Jul 2 09:25:59 2008 From: markekohut at yahoo.com (Mark Kohut) Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2008 07:25:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Pynchon in Newsweek In-Reply-To: <7322137.1215006934349.JavaMail.root@elwamui-polski.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <518554.71785.qm@web38404.mail.mud.yahoo.com> This is Part One of Newsweek's [malcolm Jones] review of AtD.....Nov 8, 2006.   I have Google alerts for certain writers and things as well.........and i was hit with many, many VERY OLD Newsweek pieces.....(there is a Google search engine story therein, but I am not Googling for it.) --- On Wed, 7/2/08, Robert Mahnke wrote: From: Robert Mahnke Subject: Pynchon in Newsweek To: pynchon-l at waste.org Date: Wednesday, July 2, 2008, 9:55 AM Google tells me that this has something to do with Pynchon, but I can't get the page to load this morning: http://www.newsweek.com/id/44686 Maybe one of you will have better luck.... -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dedalus204 at comcast.net Wed Jul 2 09:27:44 2008 From: dedalus204 at comcast.net (Tim Strzechowski) Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2008 09:27:44 -0500 Subject: Pynchon in Newsweek References: <7322137.1215006934349.JavaMail.root@elwamui-polski.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <003601c8dc4f$cbc40f10$0300a8c0@TStrzechowski> Pynchon on the Installment Plan Reading a Thomas Pynchon novel can feel like a life’s work—so this reviewer decided to respond in kind: herewith part one of a serial review of ‘Against the Day.’ By Malcolm Jones | Newsweek Web Exclusive Nov 17, 2006 Here’s my problem: I’ve now read more than 400 pages of the new Thomas Pynchon novel, “Against the Day,” and I’m not even half through. Normally I wouldn’t complain, and I certainly wouldn’t look for sympathy. Long novels come with the territory when you’re a book reviewer, and in the end, it balances out, because you read your share of short novels, too. Besides, no one’s going to give you a lick of sympathy when you get paid to read for a living, even if the book is in Urdu. OK, that’s not really my problem. The real hitch here is how to review this 1,085-page behemoth. I’ve already made enough notes on this sucker to write my own book, because this story has enough plotlines for two or three novels, and so many characters that I’ve actually begun constructing family trees. If I wait until I’m finished to write a review, I’m afraid it’s going to wind up sounding like the old Woody Allen joke about taking a speed-reading course: “I read ‘War and Peace.’ It was about Russia.” To give you a review with sufficient detail to convey a sense of the story—and because I really, really hate throwing away good research—I’ve decided that the only way I can do justice to “Against the Day” is to review it in installments. If novelists can write serially, why not reviewers? Just think of me as a sort of sherpa guide. Pynchon kicks his novel off with a big set piece at the Chicago Exposition of 1893 and focuses initially on a hardy band of boys called the Chums of Chance, who travel the globe in a hydrogen skyship named the Inconvenience. Their further exploits, we are told, are detailed elsewhere in a series of dime novels with titles such as “The Chums of Chance in Old Mexico” and “The Chums of Chance and the Evil Halfwit” (that’s the one set in Washington, D.C.). Whenever the Chums appear throughout the narrative, Pynchon resorts to an orotund language reminiscent of the turn of the last century: “Miles, with his marginal gifts of coordination, and Chick, with a want of alacrity fully as perceptible, took their stations at the control-panels of the apparatus, as Darby Suckling, meantime, went scrambling up the ratlines and shrouds of the giant ellipsoidal envelope from which the gondola depended …” and so on. The boys have touched down in Chicago for an aeronauts’ convention. The World Exposition across town is just the icing on their cake. After a few pages of fun at the fair, we get the idea: the boys embody the childlike air of innocence that attended the fair, when the whole country could still get behind the idea that technology bred progress. But this is Pynchon, so you know that this Edisonian let-there-be-light fandango will go through some weird spin cycle pretty darn quick. [...] ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert Mahnke" To: Sent: Wednesday, July 02, 2008 8:55 AM Subject: Pynchon in Newsweek > > Google tells me that this has something to do with Pynchon, but I can't > get the page to load this morning: > > http://www.newsweek.com/id/44686 > > Maybe one of you will have better luck.... > From scuffling at gmail.com Wed Jul 2 09:32:53 2008 From: scuffling at gmail.com (Henry) Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2008 10:32:53 -0400 Subject: Pynchon in Newsweek In-Reply-To: <7322137.1215006934349.JavaMail.root@elwamui-polski.atl.sa.earthlink.net> References: <7322137.1215006934349.JavaMail.root@elwamui-polski.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <005e01c8dc50$83b87f20$8b297d60$@com> Pynchon on the Installment Plan http://www.newsweek.com/id/44686 Reading a Thomas Pynchon novel can feel like a life’s work—so this reviewer decided to respond in kind: herewith part one of a serial review of ‘Against the Day.’ Malcolm Jones Newsweek Web Exclusive Updated: 3:25 PM ET Oct 15, 2007 Here’s my problem: I’ve now read more than 400 pages of the new Thomas Pynchon novel, “Against the Day,” and I’m not even half through. Normally I wouldn’t complain, and I certainly wouldn’t look for sympathy. Long novels come with the territory when you’re a book reviewer, and in the end, it balances out, because you read your share of short novels, too. Besides, no one’s going to give you a lick of sympathy when you get paid to read for a living, even if the book is in Urdu. OK, that’s not really my problem. The real hitch here is how to review this 1,085-page behemoth. I’ve already made enough notes on this sucker to write my own book, because this story has enough plotlines for two or three novels, and so many characters that I’ve actually begun constructing family trees. If I wait until I’m finished to write a review, I’m afraid it’s going to wind up sounding like the old Woody Allen joke about taking a speed-reading course: “I read ‘War and Peace.’ It was about Russia.” To give you a review with sufficient detail to convey a sense of the story—and because I really, really hate throwing away good research—I’ve decided that the only way I can do justice to “Against the Day” is to review it in installments. If novelists can write serially, why not reviewers? Just think of me as a sort of sherpa guide. Pynchon kicks his novel off with a big set piece at the Chicago Exposition of 1893 and focuses initially on a hardy band of boys called the Chums of Chance, who travel the globe in a hydrogen skyship named the Inconvenience. Their further exploits, we are told, are detailed elsewhere in a series of dime novels with titles such as “The Chums of Chance in Old Mexico” and “The Chums of Chance and the Evil Halfwit” (that’s the one set in Washington, D.C.). Whenever the Chums appear throughout the narrative, Pynchon resorts to an orotund language reminiscent of the turn of the last century: “Miles, with his marginal gifts of coordination, and Chick, with a want of alacrity fully as perceptible, took their stations at the control-panels of the apparatus, as Darby Suckling, meantime, went scrambling up the ratlines and shrouds of the giant ellipsoidal envelope from which the gondola depended …” and so on. The boys have touched down in Chicago for an aeronauts’ convention. The World Exposition across town is just the icing on their cake. After a few pages of fun at the fair, we get the idea: the boys embody the childlike air of innocence that attended the fair, when the whole country could still get behind the idea that technology bred progress. But this is Pynchon, so you know that this Edisonian let-there-be-light fandango will go through some weird spin cycle pretty darn quick. Enter Scarsdale Vibe, a tycoon on the order of Rockefeller and Morgan. Enter, come to think of it, a whole clan of Vibes: Colfax, Cragmont, Fleetwood, Wilshire, Dittany and Edwarda, née Beef, now Mrs. Vibe, with maid Vaseline in tow. As the story unfolds, Vibe and his family lurk on the edges of nearly every plot, or every plot sooner or later circles back to them. They are the dark counterweight to the Chums and anyone else of positive mien. Vibe is the sort to have a man killed and then send his son to college, not out of guilt but just to keep his enemies where he can see them. His muscle is a man named Foley Walker (best name so far in the book—more on this in a moment). It is a mark of Pynchon’s thoroughness that he gives everyone a backstory that shadows all in the present action: Walker was Vibe’s paid substitute in the Civil War. This is also the first sliver of a huge piece of the puzzle: doubles will crop up with increasing and increasingly menacing meaning. false Now, as to those names: this is the one area of the novel where Pynchon seems a little off his usual standard. No one names characters better, starting with “V.” (Pig Bodine, Bloody Chiclets), “Gravity’s Rainbow” (Tyrone Slothrop—maybe the best WASP name ever), or “Mason & Dixon” (the Rev. Wicks Cherrycoke). But in “Against the Day,” nearly all the names are a half step off, just shy of the usual standard: Webb Traverse, Heino Vanderjuice, Alonzo Meatman—it just sounds like someone trying to make up funny names. There is Chevrolette McAdoo, but so far she’s a walk-on. Maybe it gets better. My heart definitely softened when I came up the ice cream parlor called Cone Amor. By the time all these characters have appeared, the action has moved—an air balloon works wonders in the transition department—to the mine field of Colorado, the South Seas, Venice, Long Island, Iceland and the middle of the earth. That’s right: from a more or less realistic plane at the outset—if the Chums of Chance can be called realistic (well, it could happen)—the plot corkscrews with increasing regularity into the realm of fantasy, a fantasy where realism is just another voice to be heard. And all the while, things are getting darker and darker, to the point where even the Chums begin to question the authority of the faceless, nameless cabal that issues their marching orders. Will they survive the underworld beneath the Mongolian sands? Does Vibe control all? Is time travel possible? And what are we to make of the quest for Iceland Spar, a form of calcite found in Iceland? Iceland Spar is clear, and looks like a crystal but is in fact something called a cleavage fragment. It is said to have rhombohedral cleavage, meaning that each of its faces is a rhombus, a warped rectangle with no squared corners. The importance of Iceland Spar to this novel is that things seen through it appear doubled. And I can’t tell how it’s going to play out, but doubling is going to be an important theme down the road in this story. At this point, I think I have most of the main story lines and their respective characters straight in my head. There are the Chums, the Vibes, the Colorado mining clan of Traverses, the itinerant photographer Merle Rideout and daughter, Dahlia. This cast combines, recombines, splinters, reforms. Their personal dramas are played out against the struggles of the time: capital v. labor, the gropings of science toward quantum physics, the stirrings of the movie industry and the furtive birth of jazz. But just when I thought I was getting a grip on things, I came across a chapter in which the Chums of Chance run into Merle Rideout at Candlebrow University … except that the boys were at Candlebrow a chapter or two before, and then went off to Asia, so … I think either I have lost the thread or there is some sort of as yet unannounced time travel going on. What I said about the sherpa—that still stands. I’ll do as much of the heavy lifting here as I’m able. But you’ve got to understand that this novelistic mountain we’re climbing, well, I’ve never been to the top either. Just a reminder. Stay tuned. Next time: are Thomas Pynchon and Bob Dylan the same person? HENRY MU Information, Media, and Technology Consultant http://my.barackobama.com/page/community/blog_rss/henrymu/ -----Original Message----- From: owner-pynchon-l at waste.org [mailto:owner-pynchon-l at waste.org] On Behalf Of Robert Mahnke Sent: Wednesday, July 02, 2008 9:56 AM To: pynchon-l at waste.org Subject: Pynchon in Newsweek Google tells me that this has something to do with Pynchon, but I can't get the page to load this morning: http://www.newsweek.com/id/44686 Maybe one of you will have better luck.... From scuffling at gmail.com Wed Jul 2 11:41:13 2008 From: scuffling at gmail.com (Henry) Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2008 12:41:13 -0400 Subject: Have a Tunguska! References: <001e01c8d2df$0a35ff30$1ea1fd90$@com> <830c13f40806200839x3960104fjf4787afde8d71ecb@mail.gmail.com> <8CAA12A2B997262-166C-418@webmail-de18.sysops.aol.com> <000901c8d317$50c49c30$f24dd490$@com> <8CAA38C76DA9521-1138-5E9@webmail-de18.sysops.aol.com> <8CAA38D388C14C4-1138-640@webmail-de18.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <008701c8dc62$7155c010$54014030$@com> Mo''uska: http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/07/080701105330.htm By the way, if these things happened every hundred years or so, where and when have they happened before? HENRY MU Information, Media, and Technology Consultant http://my.barackobama.com/page/community/blog/henrymu From scuffling at gmail.com Wed Jul 2 11:44:44 2008 From: scuffling at gmail.com (Henry) Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2008 12:44:44 -0400 Subject: Hardly NEP: Time for Lots of Bots; Watermelon May Have Viagra-effect References: <7322137.1215006934349.JavaMail.root@elwamui-polski.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <008801c8dc62$eeed1640$ccc742c0$@com> "We Love Robots. You think Wall-E is cute? Check out this gallery of adorable — and real — automatons" http://www.time.com/time/photogallery/0,29307,1815874,00.html "A cold slice of watermelon has long been a Fourth of July holiday staple. But according to recent studies, the juicy fruit may be better suited for Valentine’s Day. That’s because scientists say watermelon has ingredients that deliver Viagra-like effects to the body’s blood vessels and may even increase libido." http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/06/080630165707.htm HENRY MU Information, Media, and Technology Consultant http://my.barackobama.com/page/community/blog_rss/henrymu/ From scuffling at gmail.com Wed Jul 2 10:35:08 2008 From: scuffling at gmail.com (Henry) Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2008 11:35:08 -0400 Subject: NP: DC Public Library Offers MP3 Downloads References: <7322137.1215006934349.JavaMail.root@elwamui-polski.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <006f01c8dc59$3625b4e0$a2711ea0$@com> A-and with the new Supreme Court ruling negating DC's gun ban, it's nice to be able to get things out of the library without having to take your guns to town. [hm] http://tinyurl.com/65jjyg DC Public Library Offers MP3 Downloads The D.C. Public Library announced yesterday that it has a new online collection of audiobooks available for download in the MP3 format. http://tinyurl.com/65fumk It's a first for a public library system, according to a statement from the system's chief librarian. While public libraries have offered audiobooks online before, the standard move has been to make those offerings available in a format playable on Microsoft's Windows Media Player software. That's not terribly convenient for people who want to listen to an audio title on their iPod. DC's new online collection is designed to be iPod-friendly -- for Windows users, anyway. To use the service, users will have to download a piece of software called OverDrive Media Console. Right now, eek, that software is not available for Macs, but a Mac version is on the way, said George Williams, a public information officer with the D.C. library system. The expectation is that users will delete the files after 21 days, the standard length of time for checking out a book, he said. A quick look at the service turns up plenty of beach reading: The service offers books by David Baldacci, Dean Koontz, and James Patterson, just to name a few of the familiar names among the authors with titles here. (I've also written about other sites such as Podiobooks.com where audiobooks are offered for free.) "We want to make sure the public knows we offer an increasing collection on multiple platforms," said Williams. By Mike Musgrove, Washington Post | June 27, 2008; 12:25 PM ET HENRY MU Information, Media, and Technology Consultant http://my.barackobama.com/page/community/blog_rss/henrymu/ From against.the.dave at gmail.com Wed Jul 2 12:47:59 2008 From: against.the.dave at gmail.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2008 12:47:59 -0500 Subject: The Best Tunguska Theories Message-ID: The Best Tunguska Theories A hundred years ago yesterday a comet or an asteroid or a divine wild pitch crashed into the Tunguska region of central Siberia with a force 1,000 times greater than the atom bomb dropped on Hiroshima. People hundreds of miles of away felt the blast, and the resulting embers in the atmosphere illuminated the night sky over London. Very cool, and very fortunate that practically no form of civilization existed at or around the epicenter (Indiana Jones would have needed, like, a whole subzero fridge to survive the blast). But the trouble was that, apart from charring and stripping the forest trees and otherwise heating up the joint, the flaming object left no crater. Even if it had, it'd have entered the cultural consciousness as the early 20th-century precursor of crop circles and grassy knolls. "Tunguska" has led to all manner of interesting theories as to what really happened, the lamest being that aliens did it. Here are a few of the better ones: 1. The Earth Mother awakens. Thomas Pynchon's novel Against the Day had it that a North Pole expedition roused some terrestrial geological entity that, upon being shipped to Siberia, lost its shit and unleashed Gehenna up top as payback for being moved from the Arctic tundra. 2. The zap and whoops. ISerbo-Croatian inventor and coil namesake Nikola Tesla fired a death ray that went to eleven and evidently worked a lot better than the still-implausible human Xerox machine David Bowie cobbled together as him in the film The Prestige. Best captured in the book Callahan's Key by Spider Robinson, who could argue anything with that name, as far as I'm concerned. 3. The underground cosmic event. The Jackson-Ryan hypothesis: Tunguska was caused by a teensy subterranean black hole that one day decided to pucker or burp or whatever. See Larry Niven's The Borderland of Sol for how that works. 4. The Ruskies and spacetime. In yet another fiction, Chekhov's Journey, Ian Watson posits that the Soviets invented a time-ship that they lost a handle on. This enables Anton Chekhov, who must have sounded like a patient out of Ward 6, to learn of the impending the cataclysm in 1890, almost two decades before it occurred. http://gawker.com/tag/science/?i=5021179&t=the-best-tunguska-theories From against.the.dave at gmail.com Wed Jul 2 13:57:57 2008 From: against.the.dave at gmail.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2008 13:57:57 -0500 Subject: The death of life writing Message-ID: The death of life writing Celebrity memoirs, breathless lives of 18th-century socialites and countless royal mistresses - whatever happened to the golden age of biography? And what is the future for a genre in which the best subjects have already been written about, time and again, asks Kathryn Hughes Saturday June 28, 2008 The Guardian Nigel Hamilton opens his new primer How to Do Biography (Harvard) with the bold boast that we are living in "a golden age" of life writing. Really, he should know better. To anyone who reads, reviews or writes on the subject, such confidence is baffling. (Hamilton, a Briton, lives mainly in the States, which may account for his rosy myopia.) Seen close up, and with an eye to proper detail, biography appears in rather a bad way. "Crisis" would probably be putting it too strongly, not least because it suggests a certain convulsive energy. "Sclerosis" might be nearer. Sales, it's true, are still good, though showing signs of softening. According to Nielsen BookScan, literary biography reached an all-time high in 2005, but has since started to fall. General arts biographies are also down. However, to give an idea of how the non-fiction market as a whole has recently been bent out of shape, it's worth noting the exponential leap in celebrity memoir. Thus Katie Price has managed to shift 335,649 hardback copies of her life story Being Jordan, despite her jaunty admission that someone else wrote it. Meanwhile, Hilary Spurling's Costa-winning Matisse the Master, surely one of the best biographies of the decade, has lifetime hardback sales of just 12,451. However, it is when you look at the quality of work produced rather than the number of books sold that you start to fear for the health of a genre that not only predates the novel by centuries (think of Plutarch's Lives), but holds peculiarly British credentials.... http://books.guardian.co.uk/departments/biography/story/0,,2287893,00.html The New York Times July 1, 2008, 2:47 pm The End of Biography? By Jennifer Schuessler Just about every literary genre has been declared dead. Is biography's time up too? Kathryn Hughes, writing in The Guardian, thinks so. Most of the major figures have been written about, probably more than once, leaving little more than B-list movie stars, third-string royal mistresses, and inanimate objects. (Salt, anyone?) "The 19th and 20th centuries have long been harvested for any royal, writer, actor, painter or soldier whose life and work could conceivably yield 350 pages of serviceable prose," Hughes writes. On a bad day, I'd call that generous: plenty of the biographies that cross my desk are 600 pages of less than serviceable prose. But then again, there are are still some plums ripe for the picking, including Cormac McCarthy, E. L. Doctorow, Don DeLillo, Toni Morrison, Salman Rushdie and Thomas Pynchon, to keep things confined to the literary world. And if heavyweights like Claire Tomalin and Michael Holroyd (both quoted in Hughes's article) are still bullish, well, perhaps there's life in life writing yet. http://papercuts.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/07/01/the-end-of-biography/ From markekohut at yahoo.com Wed Jul 2 14:25:55 2008 From: markekohut at yahoo.com (Mark Kohut) Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2008 12:25:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: The death of life writing In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <768876.84605.qm@web38404.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Hughes is ridiculously wrong.....new good bios emerge because the truth gets able to be touched more fully.................she doesn't even talk about a real problem: being sued or stopped by estates.......   Re; Sales...thus it has always been.................  --- On Wed, 7/2/08, Dave Monroe wrote: From: Dave Monroe Subject: The death of life writing To: "pynchon -l" Date: Wednesday, July 2, 2008, 2:57 PM The death of life writing Celebrity memoirs, breathless lives of 18th-century socialites and countless royal mistresses - whatever happened to the golden age of biography? And what is the future for a genre in which the best subjects have already been written about, time and again, asks Kathryn Hughes Saturday June 28, 2008 The Guardian Nigel Hamilton opens his new primer How to Do Biography (Harvard) with the bold boast that we are living in "a golden age" of life writing. Really, he should know better. To anyone who reads, reviews or writes on the subject, such confidence is baffling. (Hamilton, a Briton, lives mainly in the States, which may account for his rosy myopia.) Seen close up, and with an eye to proper detail, biography appears in rather a bad way. "Crisis" would probably be putting it too strongly, not least because it suggests a certain convulsive energy. "Sclerosis" might be nearer. Sales, it's true, are still good, though showing signs of softening. According to Nielsen BookScan, literary biography reached an all-time high in 2005, but has since started to fall. General arts biographies are also down. However, to give an idea of how the non-fiction market as a whole has recently been bent out of shape, it's worth noting the exponential leap in celebrity memoir. Thus Katie Price has managed to shift 335,649 hardback copies of her life story Being Jordan, despite her jaunty admission that someone else wrote it. Meanwhile, Hilary Spurling's Costa-winning Matisse the Master, surely one of the best biographies of the decade, has lifetime hardback sales of just 12,451. However, it is when you look at the quality of work produced rather than the number of books sold that you start to fear for the health of a genre that not only predates the novel by centuries (think of Plutarch's Lives), but holds peculiarly British credentials.... http://books.guardian.co.uk/departments/biography/story/0,,2287893,00.html The New York Times July 1, 2008, 2:47 pm The End of Biography? By Jennifer Schuessler Just about every literary genre has been declared dead. Is biography's time up too? Kathryn Hughes, writing in The Guardian, thinks so. Most of the major figures have been written about, probably more than once, leaving little more than B-list movie stars, third-string royal mistresses, and inanimate objects. (Salt, anyone?) "The 19th and 20th centuries have long been harvested for any royal, writer, actor, painter or soldier whose life and work could conceivably yield 350 pages of serviceable prose," Hughes writes. On a bad day, I'd call that generous: plenty of the biographies that cross my desk are 600 pages of less than serviceable prose. But then again, there are are still some plums ripe for the picking, including Cormac McCarthy, E. L. Doctorow, Don DeLillo, Toni Morrison, Salman Rushdie and Thomas Pynchon, to keep things confined to the literary world. And if heavyweights like Claire Tomalin and Michael Holroyd (both quoted in Hughes's article) are still bullish, well, perhaps there's life in life writing yet. http://papercuts.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/07/01/the-end-of-biography/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From markekohut at yahoo.com Wed Jul 2 14:29:56 2008 From: markekohut at yahoo.com (Mark Kohut) Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2008 12:29:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: NP but maybe very related to a part of P Message-ID: <578108.96358.qm@web38407.mail.mud.yahoo.com> "The immediate life-emotion, happiness in the moment, the sense of the whole that is imparted by nature is monastic mysticism of the Middle Ages in secular form."                                  ----Robert Musil, Diaries, 1905-1908 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From against.the.dave at gmail.com Wed Jul 2 14:31:54 2008 From: against.the.dave at gmail.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2008 14:31:54 -0500 Subject: The death of life writing In-Reply-To: <768876.84605.qm@web38404.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <768876.84605.qm@web38404.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On 7/2/08, Mark Kohut wrote: > > Hughes is ridiculously wrong.....new good bios emerge because the truth gets able to be touched more fully.................she doesn't even talk about a real problem: being sued or stopped by estates....... By the way, again, hope no one's waiting to host on my account, I'm again having extreme dificulty coordinating online access with quality time with, well, simple functionality for this last page or two 9right, Tim?), so ... From against.the.dave at gmail.com Wed Jul 2 15:04:57 2008 From: against.the.dave at gmail.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2008 15:04:57 -0500 Subject: AtDtDA(34): "Oh, There Won't Be any War" Message-ID: "'Oh, there won't be any war.'" (AtD, Pt. IV., p. 759) "'They have adapted the σχημα'" The word schema comes from the Greek word "σχήμα" (skhēma), which means shape or more generally plan.... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schema The monastic habit is the same throughout the Eastern Church (with certain slight regional variations), and it is the same for both monks and nuns. Each successive grade is given a portion of the habit, the full habit being worn only by those in the highest grade, known for that reason as the "Great Schema", or "Great Habit." One is free to enter any monastery of one's choice; but after being accepted by the abbot (or abbess) and making vows, one may not move from place to place without the blessing of one's ecclesiastical superior.... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schema_(Orthodoxy)#Orthodox_monasticism Great Schema (Greek: μεγαλοσχημος, Megaloschemos; Slavonic: Схима, Schima)—Monks whose abbot feels they have reached a high level of spiritual excellence reach the final stage, called the Great Schema. The tonsure of a Schemamonk or Schemanun follows the same format as the Stavrophore, and he makes the same vows and is tonsured in the same manner. But in addition to all the garments worn by the Stavrophore, he is given the analavos (Slavonic: analav) which is the article of monastic vesture emblematic of the Great Schema. For this reason, the analavos itself is sometimes itself called the "Great Schema". It drapes over the shoulders and hangs down in front and in back, with the front portion somewhat longer ... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schema_(Orthodoxy)#Great_Schema http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schema_(Orthodoxy) "the Orphic story of the world's beginning" http://persephones.250free.com/orphic-cosmogony.html "the Greeks called her Νυξ" NYX was the goddess of the night, one of the ancient Protogenoi (first-born elemental gods).... http://www.theoi.com/Protogenos/Nyx.html The fragments of Orphic cosmogonies given by Eudemos, and Plato, and Lydus do not quite agree, but at least Night, Oceanus, and Thetys are elementary beings, and the first of them in order of existence was probably Night.... http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04405c.htm In Greek mythology, Nyx (Νύξ, Nox in Roman translation) was the primordial goddess of the night. A shadowy figure, Night stood at or near the beginning of creation, and was the mother of personified gods such as Sleep and Death. Her appearances in mythology are sparse, but reveal her as a figure of exceptional power.... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nyx_(mythology) Night took on an even more important role in several fragmentary poems attributed to Orpheus. In them, Night, rather than Chaos, is the first principle. Night occupies a cave or adyton, in which she gives oracles. Kronos - who is chained within, asleep and drunk on honey - dreams and prophesies. Outside the cave, Adrastea clashes cymbals and beats upon her tympanon, moving the entire universe in an ecstatic dance to the rhythm of Nyx's chanting. Phanes - the strange, monstrous, hermaphrodite Orphic demiurge - was the child or father of Nyx. Night is also the first principle in the opening chorus of Aristophanes's Birds, which may be Orphic in inspiration.... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nyx_(mythology)#Other_Greek_texts http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e3/William-Adolphe_Bouguereau_%281825-1905%29_-_La_Nuit_%281883%29.jpg Vs. ... http://against-the-day.pynchonwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=ATD_946-975#Page_959 But why these particular words in the Greek alphabet? Help! "In the Eastern rite" Unlike in Western Christianity, where sundry religious orders arose, each with its own profession rites, in the Eastern Orthodox Church, there is only one type of monasticism. The profession of monastics is known as Tonsure (referring to the ritual cutting of the monastic's hair which takes place during the service) and is considered to be a Sacred Mystery (Sacrament).... [...] One becomes a monk or nun by being tonsured, a rite which only a priest can perform. This is typically done by the abbot. The priest tonsuring a monk or nun must himself be tonsured into the same or greater degree of monasticism that he is tonsuring into. In other words, only a hieromonk who has been tonsured into the Great Schema may himself tonsure a Schemamonk. A bishop, however, may tonsure into any rank, regardless of his own; also, on rare occasion, a bishop will allow a priest to tonsure a monk or nun into any rank.... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schema_(Orthodoxy)#Orthodox_monasticism "a kind of girdle" ? "adapted"? In some communities, the novice also wears the leather belt.... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schema_(Orthodoxy)#Novice Father Ponko ? hegumen Hegumen, hegumenos, or ihumen ... is the title for the head of a monastery of the Eastern Orthodox Church or Eastern Catholic Churches, similar to the one of abbot. The head of a convent of nuns is called hegumenia or ihumenia .... The term means "the one who is in charge", "the leader" in Greek.... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hegumen "'Talking, for women, is a form of breathing'" Compare p. 501: "a hundred women ... all silent." Tying Noellyn/Yashmeen to Cyprian? http://against-the-day.pynchonwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=ATD_946-975#Page_959 From against.the.dave at gmail.com Wed Jul 2 15:28:29 2008 From: against.the.dave at gmail.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2008 15:28:29 -0500 Subject: AtDtDA(34): "What is It that is Born of Light?" Message-ID: "When it was Cyprian's turn, he knelt and whispered, 'What is it that is born of light?'" (AtD, Pt. IV, p.959) "a look of unaccustomed sorrow" Why? "our great enemies were the Hesychasts" Hesychasm ... is an eremitic tradition of prayer in the Eastern Orthodox Church, and some other Eastern Churches of the Byzantine Rite, practised (Gk: ἡσυχάζω hesychazo: "to keep stillness") by the Hesychast (Gr. Ἡσυχαστής hesychastes). Based on Christ's injunction in the Gospel of Matthew to "go into your closet to pray", Hesychasm in tradition has been the process of retiring inward by ceasing to register the senses, in order to achieve an experiential knowledge of God (see theoria).... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hesychasts About the year 1337 Hesychasm attracted the attention of a learned member of the Orthodox Church, Barlaam, a Calabrian monk ... Barlaam took exception to, as heretical and blasphemous, the doctrine entertained by the Hesychasts as to the nature of the light, the experience of which was said to be the goal of Hesychast practice. It was maintained by the Hesychasts to be of divine origin and to be identical to that light which had been manifested to Jesus' disciples on Mount Tabor at the Transfiguration. This Barlaam held to be polytheistic, inasmuch as it postulated two eternal substances, a visible and an invisible God.... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hesychasts#Gregory_Palamas:_defender_of_Hesychasm http://against-the-day.pynchonwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=ATD_946-975#Page_959 "'What is it that was born of that light?'" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transfiguration_of_Jesus "'There came a cloud and overshadowed them'" Luke 9:34 http://etext.virginia.edu/etcbin/toccer-new2?id=KjvLuke.sgm&images=images/modeng&data=/texts/english/modeng/parsed&tag=public&part=9&division=div1 August 6 is the Feast of the Transfiguration, the celebration of the day when Jesus revealed his divinity to Peter, John, and James on the top of Mount Tabor. (Matthew 17:2 and Mark 9:2.) It has been called "the culminating point of His public life, as His baptism is its starting point and His ascension its end." As an actual holiday, the Feast of the Transfiguration had its origins in the forth century. It is believed that it was substituted for an early pagan feast called Vatavarh, or Roseflame, held in honor of Aphrodite. In an ironic pairing typical of Gravity's Rainbow, this feast coincides with another event on August 6, 1945: the dropping of the atomic bomb on Hiroshima. http://www.themodernword.com/pynchon/pynchon_granalysis.html Through the clever placement of ironic transformations and satirical inversions, there are several focal points throughout the work where two opposing images exist simultaneously, setting up an ironic dissonance -- the fact that Hiroshima occurs on the Feast of the Transfiguration, for example ... http://www.themodernword.com/pynchon/pynchon_grintro.html omphalopsychoi Main Entry: om·pha·los Pronunciation: \ˈäm(p)-fə-ˌläs, -ləs\ Function: noun Etymology: Greek, navel — more at navel Date: 1855 : a central point : hub, focal point http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/omphali Main Entry: psy·che Pronunciation: \ˈsī-kē\ Function: noun Etymology: Latin, from Greek psychē soul Date: 1590 1capitalized : a princess loved by Cupid 2[Greek psychē] a: soul, personality b: mind 2 http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/psyche Hesychasts condemned as "having their souls in their navel." http://against-the-day.pynchonwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=ATD_946-975#Page_959 From markekohut at yahoo.com Wed Jul 2 17:16:43 2008 From: markekohut at yahoo.com (Mark Kohut) Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2008 15:16:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: AtDtDA(34): "Oh, There Won't Be any War" Message-ID: <770669.67712.qm@web38406.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Re; Why those words in the original Greek?......I am reminded of the way the Gagolitic Alphabet is described.......created to be Scripture as it were..............   the original Greek here is closer to the source, the reality, I suggest. We are touching 'the world's beginning" in the Orphic Myth. --- On Wed, 7/2/08, Dave Monroe wrote: From: Dave Monroe Subject: AtDtDA(34): "Oh, There Won't Be any War" To: "pynchon -l" Date: Wednesday, July 2, 2008, 4:04 PM "'Oh, there won't be any war.'" (AtD, Pt. IV., p. 759) "'They have adapted the σχημα'" The word schema comes from the Greek word "σχήμα" (skhēma), which means shape or more generally plan.... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schema The monastic habit is the same throughout the Eastern Church (with certain slight regional variations), and it is the same for both monks and nuns. Each successive grade is given a portion of the habit, the full habit being worn only by those in the highest grade, known for that reason as the "Great Schema", or "Great Habit." One is free to enter any monastery of one's choice; but after being accepted by the abbot (or abbess) and making vows, one may not move from place to place without the blessing of one's ecclesiastical superior.... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schema_(Orthodoxy)#Orthodox_monasticism Great Schema (Greek: μεγαλοσχημος, Megaloschemos; Slavonic: Схима, Schima)—Monks whose abbot feels they have reached a high level of spiritual excellence reach the final stage, called the Great Schema. The tonsure of a Schemamonk or Schemanun follows the same format as the Stavrophore, and he makes the same vows and is tonsured in the same manner. But in addition to all the garments worn by the Stavrophore, he is given the analavos (Slavonic: analav) which is the article of monastic vesture emblematic of the Great Schema. For this reason, the analavos itself is sometimes itself called the "Great Schema". It drapes over the shoulders and hangs down in front and in back, with the front portion somewhat longer ... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schema_(Orthodoxy)#Great_Schema http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schema_(Orthodoxy) "the Orphic story of the world's beginning" http://persephones.250free.com/orphic-cosmogony.html "the Greeks called her Νυξ" NYX was the goddess of the night, one of the ancient Protogenoi (first-born elemental gods).... http://www.theoi.com/Protogenos/Nyx.html The fragments of Orphic cosmogonies given by Eudemos, and Plato, and Lydus do not quite agree, but at least Night, Oceanus, and Thetys are elementary beings, and the first of them in order of existence was probably Night.... http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04405c.htm In Greek mythology, Nyx (Νύξ, Nox in Roman translation) was the primordial goddess of the night. A shadowy figure, Night stood at or near the beginning of creation, and was the mother of personified gods such as Sleep and Death. Her appearances in mythology are sparse, but reveal her as a figure of exceptional power.... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nyx_(mythology) Night took on an even more important role in several fragmentary poems attributed to Orpheus. In them, Night, rather than Chaos, is the first principle. Night occupies a cave or adyton, in which she gives oracles. Kronos - who is chained within, asleep and drunk on honey - dreams and prophesies. Outside the cave, Adrastea clashes cymbals and beats upon her tympanon, moving the entire universe in an ecstatic dance to the rhythm of Nyx's chanting. Phanes - the strange, monstrous, hermaphrodite Orphic demiurge - was the child or father of Nyx. Night is also the first principle in the opening chorus of Aristophanes's Birds, which may be Orphic in inspiration.... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nyx_(mythology)#Other_Greek_texts http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e3/William-Adolphe_Bouguereau_%281825-1905%29_-_La_Nuit_%281883%29.jpg Vs. ... http://against-the-day.pynchonwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=ATD_946-975#Page_959 But why these particular words in the Greek alphabet? Help! "In the Eastern rite" Unlike in Western Christianity, where sundry religious orders arose, each with its own profession rites, in the Eastern Orthodox Church, there is only one type of monasticism. The profession of monastics is known as Tonsure (referring to the ritual cutting of the monastic's hair which takes place during the service) and is considered to be a Sacred Mystery (Sacrament).... [...] One becomes a monk or nun by being tonsured, a rite which only a priest can perform. This is typically done by the abbot. The priest tonsuring a monk or nun must himself be tonsured into the same or greater degree of monasticism that he is tonsuring into. In other words, only a hieromonk who has been tonsured into the Great Schema may himself tonsure a Schemamonk. A bishop, however, may tonsure into any rank, regardless of his own; also, on rare occasion, a bishop will allow a priest to tonsure a monk or nun into any rank.... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schema_(Orthodoxy)#Orthodox_monasticism "a kind of girdle" ? "adapted"? In some communities, the novice also wears the leather belt.... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schema_(Orthodoxy)#Novice Father Ponko ? hegumen Hegumen, hegumenos, or ihumen ... is the title for the head of a monastery of the Eastern Orthodox Church or Eastern Catholic Churches, similar to the one of abbot. The head of a convent of nuns is called hegumenia or ihumenia .... The term means "the one who is in charge", "the leader" in Greek.... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hegumen "'Talking, for women, is a form of breathing'" Compare p. 501: "a hundred women ... all silent." Tying Noellyn/Yashmeen to Cyprian? http://against-the-day.pynchonwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=ATD_946-975#Page_959 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From monte.davis at verizon.net Thu Jul 3 02:16:01 2008 From: monte.davis at verizon.net (Monte Davis) Date: Thu, 03 Jul 2008 03:16:01 -0400 Subject: AtDtDA(34): "I Shan't Be Coming with You" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <4B49B853393C43759F72615909C394E3@MSI1> Dave Monroe quotes: > "'When you leave,' Cyprian said quietly, 'I shan't be coming > with you.'" (AtD, Pt. IV, p. 957) The saddest words of tongue or pen. I mean sure, I'm happy for Cyp getting off the Wheel and all, but the rest of us -- SOL. From monte.davis at verizon.net Thu Jul 3 02:57:06 2008 From: monte.davis at verizon.net (Monte Davis) Date: Thu, 03 Jul 2008 03:57:06 -0400 Subject: 100 Years Since Tunguska In-Reply-To: <486b0239.1e068e0a.4c94.ffff895d@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <5979C7C27BAC4331A6018FF8CFB1A96C@MSI1> Richard Fiero quotes: > We know that a rather massive body flew into the atmosphere of our > planet, said Boris Shustov of the Russian Academy of > Sciences. It measured 40 to 60 meters in diameter. Clearly, > it did not consist > of iron, otherwise it would have certainly reached the earth... That's not as certain and clear-cut as he makes it sound. When something like that hits an atmosphere, the thermal shock is way outside our experience, even with spacecraft re-entry: there literally IS NOT TIME for the air to be pushed out of the way, so a "column" many miles long/deep is rammed into a layer of dense plasma at stellar temperatures. (It was seriously suggested in the 1960s that researchers look for traces of thermonuclear fusion at Tunguska -- no deuterium or magnetic confinement needed, just good old compression, the way the dark heart of the sun does it.) That plasma -- and thousands or millions of atmospheres of pressure -- is doing its best to transfer energy into the leading face of the impactor, and Shustov's intuition about "well, sure, but it takes time to heat it up and rip it apart" isn't worth much. I recall calculations when the big Shoemaker-Levy comet -- presumed from its record of progressive break-up to be ice-rich and "fluffier" -- hit Jupiter: they figured out the level of thermal shock needed to disintegrate such an object, and noted casually that it would have taken only a very few seconds longer to do the same to nickel-iron. So depending on the details of speed , angle of incidence, and even shape (no reason to assume it was round except to make the math simpler), it's not impossible for even an iron impactor to have been ripped to sparkling dust before macroscopic chunks could hit the ground. From against.the.dave at gmail.com Thu Jul 3 08:16:18 2008 From: against.the.dave at gmail.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2008 08:16:18 -0500 Subject: AtDtDA(34): "Oh, There Won't Be any War" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 7/2/08, Dave Monroe wrote: > "the Greeks called her Νυξ" 1: In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. 2: And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. 3: And God said, Let there be light: and there was light. 4: And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness. 5: And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.... http://etext.virginia.edu/etcbin/toccer-new2?id=KjvGene.sgm&images=images/modeng&data=/texts/english/modeng/parsed&tag=public&part=1&division=div1 Thank you, offlist prompter ... From markekohut at yahoo.com Thu Jul 3 09:04:06 2008 From: markekohut at yahoo.com (Mark Kohut) Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2008 07:04:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: AtDtDA(34): "Oh, There Won't Be any War" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <728123.35241.qm@web38404.mail.mud.yahoo.com> I don't know Grrek, so help me with the connection here between NuE and Genesis.... --- On Thu, 7/3/08, Dave Monroe wrote: From: Dave Monroe Subject: Re: AtDtDA(34): "Oh, There Won't Be any War" To: "pynchon -l" Date: Thursday, July 3, 2008, 9:16 AM On 7/2/08, Dave Monroe wrote: > "the Greeks called her Νυξ" 1: In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. 2: And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. 3: And God said, Let there be light: and there was light. 4: And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness. 5: And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.... http://etext.virginia.edu/etcbin/toccer-new2?id=KjvGene.sgm&images=images/modeng&data=/texts/english/modeng/parsed&tag=public&part=1&division=div1 Thank you, offlist prompter ... -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From against.the.dave at gmail.com Thu Jul 3 09:05:53 2008 From: against.the.dave at gmail.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2008 09:05:53 -0500 Subject: METROPOLIS Rebuilt Message-ID: Fritz Lang's Long-Missing, Full-Length Edit Has Finally Been Located http://www.aintitcool.com/node/37324 From against.the.dave at gmail.com Thu Jul 3 09:06:50 2008 From: against.the.dave at gmail.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2008 09:06:50 -0500 Subject: METROPOLIS Rebuilt In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: http://www.zeit.de/online/2008/27/metropolis-vorab-englisch On 7/3/08, Dave Monroe wrote: > Fritz Lang's Long-Missing, Full-Length Edit Has Finally Been Located > > http://www.aintitcool.com/node/37324 > From against.the.dave at gmail.com Thu Jul 3 09:41:03 2008 From: against.the.dave at gmail.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2008 09:41:03 -0500 Subject: The Concrete Jungle Book Message-ID: 'The Concrete Jungle Book': A different animal Trevor Hunnicutt Thursday, July 3, 2008 Artists have used mixed media with great success to push the boundaries of art. Picasso's use of collage, for instance, helped develop methods of expression in Cubism. In an effort to push book publishing into the 21st century, a writer, a schoolteacher and a graphic artist have joined forces in a mixed-media project: a retelling of Rudyard Kipling's classic "The Jungle Book" that combines scrapbooking, graphic art, prose storytelling and pages based on the collaboration of readers online. Doug Millison, an author of "The Concrete Jungle Book," an unpublished graphic novel, says the use of mixed media helps tell the story through the eyes of the book's protagonists: Little Mo, an autistic boy living in the concrete jungle of Dallas, who is forced to contend with his parents' murder at the hands of a vicious gangster; the gangster; and the heroes who help Little Mo. In the model of Kipling, those characters become anthropomorphized animals in Little Mo's mind. One is called Akela the Wolf, who helps Little Mo craft his revenge, and Shere Khan the Tiger, who attempts to kill him. "There is a realm of experience that's closed off to us because we don't want to consider it," said Millison. By using multiple media, the book can show readers how animals and an autistic youth think about the world. Animals, Millison said, consider themselves in a state of warfare with most people in competition for environmental resources. Millison, an El Cerrito writer, and Steve Porter, a former middle school teacher in Texas, say they were inspired in part by a high-performing but developmentally disabled student in Porter's class who demonstrated a mastery of the class material despite concentrating more on drawing pictures in his notebook. They believed a novel showing the world from his perspective would be more vivid and accurate in mixed media, and a novel showing the perspective of animals would make more sense visually than textually. Srayla Tip designed the art in the book. The project's use of new media and the Internet comes into play with TheConcreteJungleBook.com, where readers can add words and art to the book and share them over the Web using blogs, social-networking sites and other technologies. When the book is published, the best contributions will be added to it. Millison hopes that the use of online contributions will improve the project and inspire reader engagement. "The Web itself is a creative tool, and we hope to exploit the native ability of the Web that lets the readers become co-creators of the book," he said. For more, go to http://www.theconcretejunglebook.com. http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2008/07/03/NS2V11EUE2.DTL The Concrete Jungle Book http://www.theconcretejunglebook.com http://comicater.com/tcjb/default.aspx From markekohut at yahoo.com Thu Jul 3 10:05:46 2008 From: markekohut at yahoo.com (Mark Kohut) Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2008 08:05:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: A non-Tunguska meteorite Message-ID: <114671.44092.qm@web38403.mail.mud.yahoo.com> http://space.newscientist.com/article/mg19926634.100-lack-of-cracks-may-explain-peru-meteorite-mystery.html?feedId=online-news_rss20 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From markekohut at yahoo.com Thu Jul 3 15:43:15 2008 From: markekohut at yahoo.com (Mark Kohut) Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2008 13:43:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: So, in Gravity's Rainbow, the action happens between the launch and fall of a V-2 Message-ID: <784354.97689.qm@web38406.mail.mud.yahoo.com> published in 1973..........................   in 1973, Richard Clarke, last the national coordinator for security and counterterrorism in the U.S. governement, says in Your Government Failed You: Sec of Defense Schlesinger ordered US troops on full alert after the Soviet Union began moving nuclear weapons and troops in response to the Arab-Israeli War...... young Richard asked a Pentagon colleague what we would do if nuclear war began. The young Army major laughingly suggested that we go to Ground Zero, which was what the Pentagon staff called the courtyard hamburger stand, and look up to watch the missiles coming in.  ---page 6....       -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From scuffling at gmail.com Thu Jul 3 16:57:46 2008 From: scuffling at gmail.com (Henry) Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2008 17:57:46 -0400 Subject: So, in Gravity's Rainbow, the action happens between the launch and fall of a V-2 In-Reply-To: <784354.97689.qm@web38406.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <784354.97689.qm@web38406.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <003501c8dd57$d462b0f0$7d2812d0$@com> I’ve always been impressed by what I assume to be bad math/stat/probability for amusement’s sake that says that an unguided missile is unlikely to hit the bull’s-eye, thereby making the bull’s-eye to which Pockler was assigned, supposedly safe. Livin' in the Bull's Eye, Henry Mu How about a donating to the Obama campaign via my ambitious 4th of July fundraising “event?” Any and all amounts are appreciated ☺ http://my.barackobama.com/page/event/detail/4gddt From against.the.dave at gmail.com Thu Jul 3 17:40:35 2008 From: against.the.dave at gmail.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2008 17:40:35 -0500 Subject: So, in Gravity's Rainbow, the action happens between the launch and fall of a V-2 In-Reply-To: <784354.97689.qm@web38406.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <784354.97689.qm@web38406.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On 7/3/08, Mark Kohut wrote: > young Richard asked a Pentagon colleague what we would do if nuclear war began. The young Army major laughingly suggested that we go to Ground Zero, which was what the Pentagon staff called the courtyard hamburger stand, and look up to watch the missiles coming in. ---page 6.... That Neufeld von Braun bio recounts an episode in which, seeing as the V-2 was, even in its fullest development, hardly a weapon affording its user pinpoint accuracy (to quote WvB hisself: "Our main objective for a long time was to make it more dangerous to be in the target area than to be with the launch crew"), von Braun and Dornberger decided to observe a test launch FROM target ground zero. At which time probability reared its ugly head, vB and D dodging their bullet by diving quickly behind a mound of dirt or somesuch conveniently nearby ... From scuffling at gmail.com Thu Jul 3 17:51:35 2008 From: scuffling at gmail.com (Henry) Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2008 18:51:35 -0400 Subject: So, in Gravity's Rainbow, the action happens between the launch and fall of a V-2 In-Reply-To: References: <784354.97689.qm@web38406.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <003601c8dd5f$59411c10$0bc35430$@com> "Our main objective for a long time was to make it more dangerous to be in the target area than to be with the launch crew." Love it! HENRY Mu From against.the.dave at gmail.com Thu Jul 3 19:30:52 2008 From: against.the.dave at gmail.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2008 19:30:52 -0500 Subject: AtDtDA(34): That Which Dwells Message-ID: "'You are familiar with the idea of the Shekinah--That which dwells?'" (AtD, Pt. IV, p. 960) "the Shekinah--That which dwells" God's Presence, Kingdom The Shekhinah is a Talmudic concept representing God's dwelling and immanence in the created world.... According to a Rabbinic tradition, the Shekhinah shares in the exiles of the Jewish people. Therefore, the redemption of the people of Israel is inextricably linked to the remedying of an alienation within God him/herself, introducing a bold new element into traditional Jewish Messianic eschatology. It is through the Shekhinah that humans can experience the Divine. The passivity of the Shekhinah is often emphasized (equated with its femininity), as the recipient of forces from the higher Sefirot.... http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Judaism/Shekhinah.html http://www.ucalgary.ca/~elsegal/Sefirot/Shekhinah.html Shekhinah ... is the English spelling of a feminine Hebrew language word that means the dwelling or settling, and is used to denote the dwelling or settling presence of God, especially in the Temple in Jerusalem. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shekinah Shekhinah is derived from the Hebrew verb שכן. In Biblical Hebrew the word means literally to settle, inhabit, or dwell, and is used frequently in the Hebrew Bible.... the Shekhinah refers to a dwelling or settling in a special sense, a dwelling or settling of divine presence, to the effect that, while in proximity to the Shekhinah, the connection to God is more readily perceivable. ... Shekhinah means "the presence of God" ... practically the same as the Greek word "Parousia also a feminine word (literally: "presence") which is used in a similar way for "Divine Presence". http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shekinah#Etymology The Latin incarnatio (in: caro, flesh) corresponds to the Greek sarkosis, or ensarkosis, which words depend on John (i, 14) kai ho Logos sarx egeneto, "And the Word was made flesh".... http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07706b.htm "And the Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us, and we saw his glory, the glory as of the Father's only Son, full of grace and truth." --John 1:14 http://bible.cc/john/1-14.htm http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/john/john1.htm The incarnate Word is the new mode of God's presence among his people. The Greek verb has the same consonants as the Aramaic word for God's presence (Shekinah).... http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/john/john1.htm#foot9 "sshhhghhh" (GR, Pt. IV, p. 680) http://waste.org/mail/?list=pynchon-l&month=0007&msg=47435 http://waste.org/mail/?list=pynchon-l&month=0803&msg=125002 "British Kabbalism" See, e.g., ... http://mqup.mcgill.ca/book.php?bookid=109 http://books.google.com/books?id=5jSQhrao540C "the High Priestess" The High Priestess (II) is the second trump or Major Arcana card in most traditional Tarot decks.... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_High_Priestess She has the lunar crescent at her feet, a horned diadem on her head, with a globe in the middle place, and a large solar cross on her breast. The scroll in her hands is inscribed with the word Tora, signifying the Greater Law, the Secret Law and the second sense of the Word. It is partly covered by her mantle, to shew that some things are implied and some spoken. She is seated between the white and black pillars--J. and B.--of the mystic Temple, and the veil of the Temple is behind her: it is embroidered with palms and pomegranates. The vestments are flowing and gauzy, and the mantle suggests light--a shimmering radiance. She has been called occult Science on the threshold of the Sanctuary of Isis, but she is really the Secret Church, the House which is of God and man. She represents also the Second Marriage of the Prince who is no longer of this world; she is the spiritual Bride and Mother, the daughter of the stars and the Higher Garden of Eden. She is, in fine, the Queen of the borrowed light, but this is the light of all. She is the Moon nourished by the milk of the Supernal Mother. In a manner, she is also the Supernal Mother herself--that is to say, she is the bright reflection. It is in this sense of reflection that her truest and highest name in bolism is Shekinah--the co-habiting glory. According to Kabalism, there is a Shekinah both above and below. In the superior world it is called Binah, the Supernal Understanding which reflects to the emanations that are beneath. In the lower world it is MaIkuth--that world being, for this purpose, understood as a blessed Kingdom that with which it is made blessed being the Indwelling Glory. Mystically speaking, the Shekinah is the Spiritual Bride of the just man, and when he reads the Law she gives the Divine meaning. There are some respects in which this card is the highest and holiest of the Greater Arcana. http://www.sacred-texts.com/tarot/pkt/pktar02.htm http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_High_Priestess#Kabbalistic_Approach And see as well, e.g., ... http://trionfi.com/tarot/cards/02-popess/ http://www.tarothermit.com/priestess.htm "shiny black accoutrements" http://against-the-day.pynchonwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=ATD_678-694#Page_690 http://against-the-day.pynchonwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=ATD_678-694#Page_678 "'When god hides his face'" "He hath said in his heart, God hath forgotten: he hideth his face; he will never see it." --Psalms 10:11 (KJV) http://bible.cc/psalms/10-11.htm "Without her to reflect" "For now we see through a glass, darkly ..." --1 Corinthians 13:12 http://biblecc.com/1_corinthians/13-12.htm "She is absolutely of the essence" Tres deconstructive, non? Oui ... "a canone of Cosmas of Jerusalem" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canon_(music) ? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cosmas_of_Maiuma "vertigo was somehow designed into the place" Cf. ... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Westin_Bonaventure_Hotel http://www.eng.fju.edu.tw/Literary_Criticism/postmodernism/examples/bonadventure.htm Talk about reflection ... "some invisible, imponderable medium" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luminiferous_aether "The mooned planet ... the planetary electron" ? "a form of death" ... To die: to sleep; No more; and by a sleep to say we end The heart-ache and the thousand natural shocks That flesh is heir to, 'tis a consummation Devoutly to be wish'd. To die, to sleep; To sleep: perchance to dream: ay, there's the rub; For in that sleep of death what dreams may come When we have shuffled off this mortal coil, Must give us pause ... (Hamlet, III.i) http://shakespeare.mit.edu/hamlet/hamlet.3.1.html And see as well, e.g., ... http://www.theosophy-nw.org/theosnw/death/de-gdp5.htm From isread at btinternet.com Thu Jul 3 23:09:26 2008 From: isread at btinternet.com (Paul Nightingale) Date: Fri, 4 Jul 2008 05:09:26 +0100 Subject: Atdtda28: The General is eager to know, 780 Message-ID: <000601c8dd8b$c01fc7c0$405f5740$@com> A third section opening with a bald statement, here one relating to agency, the individual's role and/or function. The agent-as-author. Gerasimoff wishes to assert his identity, but what is his opinion worth? Not much, apparently, as Padzhitnoff counters with another view, that of bureaucratic superiors (and by the end of the section Gerasimoff's 'view' has been countered by Pavel's). Gerasimoff thinks he can separate war and science; the reader, who has, perhaps, imposed meaning on the "heavenwide blast" that opens the chapter (779), might recall that the twentieth century has demonstrated the falsity of that proposition in spectacular fashion (cf. Padzhitnoff's reference to gunpowder down the page). We are being introduced to the Bol'shaia Ingra's crew as they make sense of the 'reality' that feeds 'history': cf. the Chums' introduction ahead of the Chicago Fair. Gennady is sardonic, perhaps less abrasively so than Darby Suckling; his emphasis on the real-estate possibilities down below prioritises the logic of capitalist development. Where Gerasimoff wishes to separate war and science, Gennady here confuses politics/bureaucracy and private enterprise: another way of promoting the individual-as-agent/author, of course. Thus far, the "heavenwide blast" has no author, or at least one that can be identified: "The General is eager to know ..." etc. As the section ends, the 'who' has become 'how to describe it': "I want all of you to see something curious," etc. The exchange between Gerasimoff and Pavel is succeeded by unattributed speech: Gerasimoff, or another? From monte.davis at verizon.net Fri Jul 4 03:06:06 2008 From: monte.davis at verizon.net (Monte Davis) Date: Fri, 04 Jul 2008 04:06:06 -0400 Subject: So, in Gravity's Rainbow, the action happens between the launch and fall of a V-2 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <61DD6E9DD2D1456486ECEB6493C81046@MSI1> Dave Monroe quotes: >"Our main objective for a long time was to > make it more dangerous to be in the target area than to be > with the launch crew" A nasty mutation of the point Neufeld made years ago in _The Rocket and the Reich_: that more people were killed in manufacturing the V-2s than by them. From hraudask at sun3.oulu.fi Fri Jul 4 04:34:52 2008 From: hraudask at sun3.oulu.fi (Heikki Raudaskoski) Date: Fri, 4 Jul 2008 12:34:52 +0300 (EEST) Subject: NP Grand Indie Day In-Reply-To: <61DD6E9DD2D1456486ECEB6493C81046@MSI1> References: <61DD6E9DD2D1456486ECEB6493C81046@MSI1> Message-ID: to you Americans! Here's two sweeping documents to celebrate the fete: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3b56e0u0EgQ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TKYALsp-sIg Later this month in central Finland, I'll probably experience the latter item live - and "I Got A Right" too - as the Asheton brothers have just lifted the ban on Williamson period stuff. As to the former specimen, the combo I'm in will quite possibly present something related to Captain Kirk's finding when it goes America in mid-September. The trip was just confirmed. The exact dates and gigs are still unclear, but it's likely that we will at the very least attend the closing party of the Finnish exhibition at P.S.1 on Sep 15. (There are also plans, for example, to do the Finnish Embassy in DC.) I'll keep you informed. Best, Heikki (who'll see one more American, Ornette C., Tuesday in Copenhagen) From markekohut at yahoo.com Fri Jul 4 09:31:58 2008 From: markekohut at yahoo.com (Mark Kohut) Date: Fri, 4 Jul 2008 07:31:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Fw: AtDtDA(34): "Oh, There Won't Be any War" Message-ID: <135509.62064.qm@web38402.mail.mud.yahoo.com> "So the darkness becomes the light, and the stillness the dancing"---"East Coker",T.S. Eliot.  --- On Wed, 7/2/08, Dave Monroe wrote: From: Dave Monroe Subject: AtDtDA(34): "Oh, There Won't Be any War" To: "pynchon -l" Date: Wednesday, July 2, 2008, 4:04 PM "'Oh, there won't be any war.'" (AtD, Pt. IV., p. 759) "'They have adapted the σχημα'" The word schema comes from the Greek word "σχήμα" (skhēma), which means shape or more generally plan.... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schema The monastic habit is the same throughout the Eastern Church (with certain slight regional variations), and it is the same for both monks and nuns. Each successive grade is given a portion of the habit, the full habit being worn only by those in the highest grade, known for that reason as the "Great Schema", or "Great Habit." One is free to enter any monastery of one's choice; but after being accepted by the abbot (or abbess) and making vows, one may not move from place to place without the blessing of one's ecclesiastical superior.... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schema_(Orthodoxy)#Orthodox_monasticism Great Schema (Greek: μεγαλοσχημος, Megaloschemos; Slavonic: Схима, Schima)—Monks whose abbot feels they have reached a high level of spiritual excellence reach the final stage, called the Great Schema. The tonsure of a Schemamonk or Schemanun follows the same format as the Stavrophore, and he makes the same vows and is tonsured in the same manner. But in addition to all the garments worn by the Stavrophore, he is given the analavos (Slavonic: analav) which is the article of monastic vesture emblematic of the Great Schema. For this reason, the analavos itself is sometimes itself called the "Great Schema". It drapes over the shoulders and hangs down in front and in back, with the front portion somewhat longer ... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schema_(Orthodoxy)#Great_Schema http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schema_(Orthodoxy) "the Orphic story of the world's beginning" http://persephones.250free.com/orphic-cosmogony.html "the Greeks called her Νυξ" NYX was the goddess of the night, one of the ancient Protogenoi (first-born elemental gods).... http://www.theoi.com/Protogenos/Nyx.html The fragments of Orphic cosmogonies given by Eudemos, and Plato, and Lydus do not quite agree, but at least Night, Oceanus, and Thetys are elementary beings, and the first of them in order of existence was probably Night.... http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04405c.htm In Greek mythology, Nyx (Νύξ, Nox in Roman translation) was the primordial goddess of the night. A shadowy figure, Night stood at or near the beginning of creation, and was the mother of personified gods such as Sleep and Death. Her appearances in mythology are sparse, but reveal her as a figure of exceptional power.... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nyx_(mythology) Night took on an even more important role in several fragmentary poems attributed to Orpheus. In them, Night, rather than Chaos, is the first principle. Night occupies a cave or adyton, in which she gives oracles. Kronos - who is chained within, asleep and drunk on honey - dreams and prophesies. Outside the cave, Adrastea clashes cymbals and beats upon her tympanon, moving the entire universe in an ecstatic dance to the rhythm of Nyx's chanting. Phanes - the strange, monstrous, hermaphrodite Orphic demiurge - was the child or father of Nyx. Night is also the first principle in the opening chorus of Aristophanes's Birds, which may be Orphic in inspiration.... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nyx_(mythology)#Other_Greek_texts http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e3/William-Adolphe_Bouguereau_%281825-1905%29_-_La_Nuit_%281883%29.jpg Vs. ... http://against-the-day.pynchonwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=ATD_946-975#Page_959 But why these particular words in the Greek alphabet? Help! "In the Eastern rite" Unlike in Western Christianity, where sundry religious orders arose, each with its own profession rites, in the Eastern Orthodox Church, there is only one type of monasticism. The profession of monastics is known as Tonsure (referring to the ritual cutting of the monastic's hair which takes place during the service) and is considered to be a Sacred Mystery (Sacrament).... [...] One becomes a monk or nun by being tonsured, a rite which only a priest can perform. This is typically done by the abbot. The priest tonsuring a monk or nun must himself be tonsured into the same or greater degree of monasticism that he is tonsuring into. In other words, only a hieromonk who has been tonsured into the Great Schema may himself tonsure a Schemamonk. A bishop, however, may tonsure into any rank, regardless of his own; also, on rare occasion, a bishop will allow a priest to tonsure a monk or nun into any rank.... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schema_(Orthodoxy)#Orthodox_monasticism "a kind of girdle" ? "adapted"? In some communities, the novice also wears the leather belt.... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schema_(Orthodoxy)#Novice Father Ponko ? hegumen Hegumen, hegumenos, or ihumen ... is the title for the head of a monastery of the Eastern Orthodox Church or Eastern Catholic Churches, similar to the one of abbot. The head of a convent of nuns is called hegumenia or ihumenia .... The term means "the one who is in charge", "the leader" in Greek.... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hegumen "'Talking, for women, is a form of breathing'" Compare p. 501: "a hundred women ... all silent." Tying Noellyn/Yashmeen to Cyprian? http://against-the-day.pynchonwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=ATD_946-975#Page_959 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From markekohut at yahoo.com Fri Jul 4 10:00:24 2008 From: markekohut at yahoo.com (Mark Kohut) Date: Fri, 4 Jul 2008 08:00:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: No subject Message-ID: <302443.53635.qm@web38401.mail.mud.yahoo.com>   Dave M. quoted: "'Talking, for women, is a form of breathing'" Compare p. 501: "a hundred women ... all silent." Tying Noellyn/Yashmeen to Cyprian? Hey, anyone want to comment on TRP risking/enacting a major, largely negative, [?] stereeotype about women?......Especially our female p-listers?................   However, isn't the concept of talking for women, via the metaphor, a positive quality here? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kelber at mindspring.com Fri Jul 4 11:08:36 2008 From: kelber at mindspring.com (kelber at mindspring.com) Date: Fri, 4 Jul 2008 12:08:36 -0400 (EDT) Subject: AtDtDA(34): Message-ID: <28359350.1215187716547.JavaMail.root@elwamui-cypress.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Nyx seems to be derived from the Egyptian goddess Nut: "Her name means Night. Some of the titles of Nut were Coverer of the Sky, She Who Protects, Mistress of All, and She Who Holds a Thousand Souls ... Nut was the goddess of the sky and all heavenly bodies, a symbol of resurrection and rebirth. According to the Egyptians, the heavenly bodies—such as the sun—would be swallowed, traverse the inside of her belly through the night, and be reborn out of her uterus at dawn." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nut_(goddess) In Cyprian's "What is born of the light?" there's an implication that the answer might involve evil or destruction (phosgene, for example). What is born of the night (Nut) is benevolent, life-affirming. Laura >From: Dave Monroe >"the Greeks called her Νυξ" > >NYX was the goddess of the night, one of the ancient Protogenoi >(first-born elemental gods).... > >http://www.theoi.com/Protogenos/Nyx.html > >The fragments of Orphic cosmogonies given by Eudemos, and Plato, and >Lydus do not quite agree, but at least Night, Oceanus, and Thetys are >elementary beings, and the first of them in order of existence was >probably Night.... > >http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04405c.htm > >In Greek mythology, Nyx (Νύξ, Nox in Roman translation) was the >primordial goddess of the night. A shadowy figure, Night stood at or >near the beginning of creation, and was the mother of personified gods >such as Sleep and Death. Her appearances in mythology are sparse, but >reveal her as a figure of exceptional power.... > >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nyx_(mythology) > >Night took on an even more important role in several fragmentary poems >attributed to Orpheus. In them, Night, rather than Chaos, is the first >principle. Night occupies a cave or adyton, in which she gives >oracles. Kronos - who is chained within, asleep and drunk on honey - >dreams and prophesies. Outside the cave, Adrastea clashes cymbals and >beats upon her tympanon, moving the entire universe in an ecstatic >dance to the rhythm of Nyx's chanting. Phanes - the strange, >monstrous, hermaphrodite Orphic demiurge - was the child or father of >Nyx. > >Night is also the first principle in the opening chorus of >Aristophanes's Birds, which may be Orphic in inspiration.... > >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nyx_(mythology)#Other_Greek_texts > >http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e3/William-Adolphe_Bouguereau_%281825-1905%29_-_La_Nuit_%281883%29.jpg > >Vs. ... > >http://against-the-day.pynchonwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=ATD_946-975#Page_959 > From kelber at mindspring.com Fri Jul 4 11:26:45 2008 From: kelber at mindspring.com (kelber at mindspring.com) Date: Fri, 4 Jul 2008 12:26:45 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Fw: AtDtDA(34): Message-ID: <16550333.1215188805970.JavaMail.root@elwamui-cypress.atl.sa.earthlink.net> One more point about darkness and light. TRP seems to have a positive attitude towards darkness in the Cyprian-becomes-a-nun section. We know at least one thing that is born of the light -- phosgene -- is destructive, whereas night, darkness is a "first principle" linked with creation. But on p. 964 we get: "As the landscape turned increasingly chaotic and murderous, the streams of refugees swelled. Another headlong fearful escape of the kind that in collective dreams, in legends, would be misremembered and reimagined into pilgrimage or crusade ... the dark terror behind transmuted to a bright hope ahead, the bright hope becoming a popular, perhaps someday a national, delusion. Embedded invisibly in it would remain the ancient darkness, too awful to face, thriving, emerging in disguise, vigorous, evil, destructive, inextricable." A very different take on darkness as evil and destructive. But it still seems to link darkness to ancient religion, with light linked to the delusions of more modern or organized religion. Still kind of a swipe at "light," I guess. Laura -----Original Message----- >From: Mark Kohut >"So the darkness becomes the light, and the stillness the dancing"---"East Coker",T.S. >Eliot.  > >--- On Wed, 7/2/08, Dave Monroe wrote: > >"the Greeks called her Νυξ" > >NYX was the goddess of the night, one of the ancient Protogenoi >(first-born elemental gods).... > >http://www.theoi.com/Protogenos/Nyx.html > >The fragments of Orphic cosmogonies given by Eudemos, and Plato, and >Lydus do not quite agree, but at least Night, Oceanus, and Thetys are >elementary beings, and the first of them in order of existence was >probably Night.... > >http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04405c.htm > >In Greek mythology, Nyx (Νύξ, Nox in Roman translation) was the >primordial goddess of the night. A shadowy figure, Night stood at or >near the beginning of creation, and was the mother of personified gods >such as Sleep and Death. Her appearances in mythology are sparse, but >reveal her as a figure of exceptional power.... > >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nyx_(mythology) > >Night took on an even more important role in several fragmentary poems >attributed to Orpheus. In them, Night, rather than Chaos, is the first >principle. Night occupies a cave or adyton, in which she gives >oracles. Kronos - who is chained within, asleep and drunk on honey - >dreams and prophesies. Outside the cave, Adrastea clashes cymbals and >beats upon her tympanon, moving the entire universe in an ecstatic >dance to the rhythm of Nyx's chanting. Phanes - the strange, >monstrous, hermaphrodite Orphic demiurge - was the child or father of >Nyx. > >Night is also the first principle in the opening chorus of >Aristophanes's Birds, which may be Orphic in inspiration.... > >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nyx_(mythology)#Other_Greek_texts > >http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e3/William-Adolphe_Bouguereau_%281825-1905%29_-_La_Nuit_%281883%29.jpg > From kelber at mindspring.com Fri Jul 4 11:49:18 2008 From: kelber at mindspring.com (kelber at mindspring.com) Date: Fri, 4 Jul 2008 12:49:18 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Message-ID: <10519155.1215190158464.JavaMail.root@elwamui-cypress.atl.sa.earthlink.net> It's hard to imagine TRP griping, "those annoying women, always blabbing ..." Speaking as a human, it's hard to see why talking is considered a negative quality (though it clearly is -- in the US, anyway). It's one of the essential qualities separating humans from animals. Is it a particularly American idea, by way of the Puritans, that Silence is Golden? In the convent, giving up talking is the greatest sacrifice a woman can make. Father Ponko (?) is comparing it to the sacrifice of hair (mere vanity). Talking, by comparison, "is a form of breathing," presumably a sacrifice of a woman's essential being, rather than her outward femininity. Cyprian's aspirations to be a woman are meant to be a step up the spiritual ladder, an embrace of the female principles of rebirth and regeneration. Still, I agree that TRP edges a little close to the negative stereotype of women as talkers. Forgivable, because TRP sees talking as positive. Most of his characters are talkers, with Cyprian being arguably more talkative than Yashmeen or Reef. Compare him to Deuce Kindred, who's inarticulate. Laura -----Original Message----- >From: Mark Kohut >  >Dave M. quoted: > >"'Talking, for women, is a form of breathing'" > >Compare p. 501: "a hundred women ... all silent." Tying >Noellyn/Yashmeen to Cyprian? > >Hey, anyone want to comment on TRP risking/enacting a major, largely negative, [?] stereeotype about women?......Especially our female p-listers?................ >  >However, isn't the concept of talking for women, via the metaphor, a positive quality here? > > From markekohut at yahoo.com Fri Jul 4 12:08:41 2008 From: markekohut at yahoo.com (Mark Kohut) Date: Fri, 4 Jul 2008 10:08:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: AtDtDA(34): Message-ID: <199865.62616.qm@web38408.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Nyx is one source of the positive valences to "It's always night OR...".............??   Existence itself is sourced in Nyx?...................................... And Nyx as the mother of Sleep and Death means those are a part of existence itself (so to speak)? "Good because existence itself has to be or we got nothin' at all?   And, as Laura remarks, light worries a good guy like Cyprian because he fears, as throughout Pynchon, what is supposed to be unalloyed Good---light----often isn't........   I will say again that perhaps the real dichotomy with night and light is natural vs. man-made?......when we humans "make light", it is not always a Good.....maybe in Pynchon's total vision it is almost always a Bad?.................remember and connect to electric streetlights from V. pervasively thru "Against the Day"???/ --- On Fri, 7/4/08, kelber at mindspring.com wrote: From: kelber at mindspring.com Subject: Re: AtDtDA(34): To: pynchon-l at waste.org Date: Friday, July 4, 2008, 12:08 PM Nyx seems to be derived from the Egyptian goddess Nut: "Her name means Night. Some of the titles of Nut were Coverer of the Sky, She Who Protects, Mistress of All, and She Who Holds a Thousand Souls ... Nut was the goddess of the sky and all heavenly bodies, a symbol of resurrection and rebirth. According to the Egyptians, the heavenly bodies—such as the sun—would be swallowed, traverse the inside of her belly through the night, and be reborn out of her uterus at dawn." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nut_(goddess) In Cyprian's "What is born of the light?" there's an implication that the answer might involve evil or destruction (phosgene, for example). What is born of the night (Nut) is benevolent, life-affirming. Laura >From: Dave Monroe >"the Greeks called her Νυξ" > >NYX was the goddess of the night, one of the ancient Protogenoi >(first-born elemental gods).... > >http://www.theoi.com/Protogenos/Nyx.html > >The fragments of Orphic cosmogonies given by Eudemos, and Plato, and >Lydus do not quite agree, but at least Night, Oceanus, and Thetys are >elementary beings, and the first of them in order of existence was >probably Night.... > >http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04405c.htm > >In Greek mythology, Nyx (Νύξ, Nox in Roman translation) was the >primordial goddess of the night. A shadowy figure, Night stood at or >near the beginning of creation, and was the mother of personified gods >such as Sleep and Death. Her appearances in mythology are sparse, but >reveal her as a figure of exceptional power.... > >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nyx_(mythology) > >Night took on an even more important role in several fragmentary poems >attributed to Orpheus. In them, Night, rather than Chaos, is the first >principle. Night occupies a cave or adyton, in which she gives >oracles. Kronos - who is chained within, asleep and drunk on honey - >dreams and prophesies. Outside the cave, Adrastea clashes cymbals and >beats upon her tympanon, moving the entire universe in an ecstatic >dance to the rhythm of Nyx's chanting. Phanes - the strange, >monstrous, hermaphrodite Orphic demiurge - was the child or father of >Nyx. > >Night is also the first principle in the opening chorus of >Aristophanes's Birds, which may be Orphic in inspiration.... > >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nyx_(mythology)#Other_Greek_texts > >http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e3/William-Adolphe_Bouguereau_%281825-1905%29_-_La_Nuit_%281883%29.jpg > >Vs. ... > >http://against-the-day.pynchonwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=ATD_946-975#Page_959 > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From markekohut at yahoo.com Fri Jul 4 13:19:50 2008 From: markekohut at yahoo.com (Mark Kohut) Date: Fri, 4 Jul 2008 11:19:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Misc. more on Chance Message-ID: <788580.14396.qm@web38402.mail.mud.yahoo.com> I could post a lot from/about "Something For Nothing", about Luck/Chance in America...........I have posted some.........................suffice to say it illumines some of P's themes.......Chums of..........anti-deterministic universe............Yashmeen's roulette system.........Luck as counterevidence of Calvinistic predestination............. luck is for preterites........................................................................................   This piece about the !Loteria! or the Ritual of Chance shows its pervasiveness in Mexico--important in "Against the Day"---where the lit crit writer came from.   Speaking of an anti-deterministic universe, he ends with: Albert Einstein once said: “God doesn’t play dice with the universe.” That isn’t true. With us He plays Looooh-teh-ree-ah.   Enjoy if interested enough. http://www.bu.edu/agni/essays/print/2003/58-stavans.html     -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From markekohut at yahoo.com Fri Jul 4 14:34:06 2008 From: markekohut at yahoo.com (Mark Kohut) Date: Fri, 4 Jul 2008 12:34:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: AtDtDA(34): That Which Dwells In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <896671.91160.qm@web38403.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Might this be one not-exactly-literal (since we are talking concepts) way to understand something else in Pynchon.............   Pentecost is the Word (of god); Shekinah, wordless indwelling of God,   If the Feminine reflects the wordless indwelling--or else Shekinah would be invisible---are the silent frocks a kind of sexy joke/homage to the wordless indwelling of the Feminine? --- On Thu, 7/3/08, Dave Monroe wrote: From: Dave Monroe Subject: AtDtDA(34): That Which Dwells To: "pynchon -l" Date: Thursday, July 3, 2008, 8:30 PM "'You are familiar with the idea of the Shekinah--That which dwells?'" (AtD, Pt. IV, p. 960) "the Shekinah--That which dwells" God's Presence, Kingdom The Shekhinah is a Talmudic concept representing God's dwelling and immanence in the created world.... According to a Rabbinic tradition, the Shekhinah shares in the exiles of the Jewish people. Therefore, the redemption of the people of Israel is inextricably linked to the remedying of an alienation within God him/herself, introducing a bold new element into traditional Jewish Messianic eschatology. It is through the Shekhinah that humans can experience the Divine. The passivity of the Shekhinah is often emphasized (equated with its femininity), as the recipient of forces from the higher Sefirot.... http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Judaism/Shekhinah.html http://www.ucalgary.ca/~elsegal/Sefirot/Shekhinah.html Shekhinah ... is the English spelling of a feminine Hebrew language word that means the dwelling or settling, and is used to denote the dwelling or settling presence of God, especially in the Temple in Jerusalem. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shekinah Shekhinah is derived from the Hebrew verb שכן. In Biblical Hebrew the word means literally to settle, inhabit, or dwell, and is used frequently in the Hebrew Bible.... the Shekhinah refers to a dwelling or settling in a special sense, a dwelling or settling of divine presence, to the effect that, while in proximity to the Shekhinah, the connection to God is more readily perceivable. ... Shekhinah means "the presence of God" ... practically the same as the Greek word "Parousia also a feminine word (literally: "presence") which is used in a similar way for "Divine Presence". http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shekinah#Etymology The Latin incarnatio (in: caro, flesh) corresponds to the Greek sarkosis, or ensarkosis, which words depend on John (i, 14) kai ho Logos sarx egeneto, "And the Word was made flesh".... http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07706b.htm "And the Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us, and we saw his glory, the glory as of the Father's only Son, full of grace and truth." --John 1:14 http://bible.cc/john/1-14.htm http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/john/john1.htm The incarnate Word is the new mode of God's presence among his people. The Greek verb has the same consonants as the Aramaic word for God's presence (Shekinah).... http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/john/john1.htm#foot9 "sshhhghhh" (GR, Pt. IV, p. 680) http://waste.org/mail/?list=pynchon-l&month=0007&msg=47435 http://waste.org/mail/?list=pynchon-l&month=0803&msg=125002 "British Kabbalism" See, e.g., ... http://mqup.mcgill.ca/book.php?bookid=109 http://books.google.com/books?id=5jSQhrao540C "the High Priestess" The High Priestess (II) is the second trump or Major Arcana card in most traditional Tarot decks.... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_High_Priestess She has the lunar crescent at her feet, a horned diadem on her head, with a globe in the middle place, and a large solar cross on her breast. The scroll in her hands is inscribed with the word Tora, signifying the Greater Law, the Secret Law and the second sense of the Word. It is partly covered by her mantle, to shew that some things are implied and some spoken. She is seated between the white and black pillars--J. and B.--of the mystic Temple, and the veil of the Temple is behind her: it is embroidered with palms and pomegranates. The vestments are flowing and gauzy, and the mantle suggests light--a shimmering radiance. She has been called occult Science on the threshold of the Sanctuary of Isis, but she is really the Secret Church, the House which is of God and man. She represents also the Second Marriage of the Prince who is no longer of this world; she is the spiritual Bride and Mother, the daughter of the stars and the Higher Garden of Eden. She is, in fine, the Queen of the borrowed light, but this is the light of all. She is the Moon nourished by the milk of the Supernal Mother. In a manner, she is also the Supernal Mother herself--that is to say, she is the bright reflection. It is in this sense of reflection that her truest and highest name in bolism is Shekinah--the co-habiting glory. According to Kabalism, there is a Shekinah both above and below. In the superior world it is called Binah, the Supernal Understanding which reflects to the emanations that are beneath. In the lower world it is MaIkuth--that world being, for this purpose, understood as a blessed Kingdom that with which it is made blessed being the Indwelling Glory. Mystically speaking, the Shekinah is the Spiritual Bride of the just man, and when he reads the Law she gives the Divine meaning. There are some respects in which this card is the highest and holiest of the Greater Arcana. http://www.sacred-texts.com/tarot/pkt/pktar02.htm http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_High_Priestess#Kabbalistic_Approach And see as well, e.g., ... http://trionfi.com/tarot/cards/02-popess/ http://www.tarothermit.com/priestess.htm "shiny black accoutrements" http://against-the-day.pynchonwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=ATD_678-694#Page_690 http://against-the-day.pynchonwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=ATD_678-694#Page_678 "'When god hides his face'" "He hath said in his heart, God hath forgotten: he hideth his face; he will never see it." --Psalms 10:11 (KJV) http://bible.cc/psalms/10-11.htm "Without her to reflect" "For now we see through a glass, darkly ..." --1 Corinthians 13:12 http://biblecc.com/1_corinthians/13-12.htm "She is absolutely of the essence" Tres deconstructive, non? Oui ... "a canone of Cosmas of Jerusalem" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canon_(music) ? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cosmas_of_Maiuma "vertigo was somehow designed into the place" Cf. ... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Westin_Bonaventure_Hotel http://www.eng.fju.edu.tw/Literary_Criticism/postmodernism/examples/bonadventure.htm Talk about reflection ... "some invisible, imponderable medium" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luminiferous_aether "The mooned planet ... the planetary electron" ? "a form of death" ... To die: to sleep; No more; and by a sleep to say we end The heart-ache and the thousand natural shocks That flesh is heir to, 'tis a consummation Devoutly to be wish'd. To die, to sleep; To sleep: perchance to dream: ay, there's the rub; For in that sleep of death what dreams may come When we have shuffled off this mortal coil, Must give us pause ... (Hamlet, III.i) http://shakespeare.mit.edu/hamlet/hamlet.3.1.html And see as well, e.g., ... http://www.theosophy-nw.org/theosnw/death/de-gdp5.htm -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kelber at mindspring.com Fri Jul 4 15:07:27 2008 From: kelber at mindspring.com (kelber at mindspring.com) Date: Fri, 4 Jul 2008 16:07:27 -0400 (GMT-04:00) Subject: Misc. more on Chance Message-ID: <24952461.1215202047814.JavaMail.root@elwamui-cypress.atl.sa.earthlink.net> The Elect don't need luck -- they've got money. The Preterite need luck, but rarely have it. How much of a force is it in anyone's life? Laura -----Original Message----- >From: Mark Kohut e > > >I could post a lot from/about "Something For Nothing", about Luck/Chance in America...........I have posted some.........................suffice to say it illumines >some of P's themes.......Chums of..........anti-deterministic universe............Yashmeen's >roulette system.........Luck as counterevidence of Calvinistic predestination............. >luck is for preterites........................................................................................ >  >This piece about the !Loteria! or the Ritual of Chance shows its pervasiveness in Mexico--important in "Against the Day"---where the lit crit writer came from. >  >Speaking of an anti-deterministic universe, he ends with: >Albert Einstein once said: “God doesn’t play dice with the universe.” That isn’t true. With us He plays Looooh-teh-ree-ah. >  >Enjoy if interested enough. >http://www.bu.edu/agni/essays/print/2003/58-stavans.html >  >  > > From markekohut at yahoo.com Fri Jul 4 15:39:28 2008 From: markekohut at yahoo.com (Mark Kohut) Date: Fri, 4 Jul 2008 13:39:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Misc. more on Chance In-Reply-To: <24952461.1215202047814.JavaMail.root@elwamui-cypress.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <70002.1727.qm@web38408.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Perhaps about as much force as The Counterforce in "Gravity's Rainbow"? Hardly enough, as has been said................. --- On Fri, 7/4/08, kelber at mindspring.com wrote: From: kelber at mindspring.com Subject: Re: Misc. more on Chance To: pynchon-l at waste.org Date: Friday, July 4, 2008, 4:07 PM The Elect don't need luck -- they've got money. The Preterite need luck, but rarely have it. How much of a force is it in anyone's life? Laura -----Original Message----- >From: Mark Kohut e > > >I could post a lot from/about "Something For Nothing", about Luck/Chance in America...........I have posted some.........................suffice to say it illumines >some of P's themes.......Chums of..........anti-deterministic universe............Yashmeen's >roulette system.........Luck as counterevidence of Calvinistic predestination............. >luck is for preterites........................................................................................ >  >This piece about the !Loteria! or the Ritual of Chance shows its pervasiveness in Mexico--important in "Against the Day"---where the lit crit writer came from. >  >Speaking of an anti-deterministic universe, he ends with: >Albert Einstein once said: “God doesn’t play dice with the universe.” That isn’t true. With us He plays Looooh-teh-ree-ah. >  >Enjoy if interested enough. >http://www.bu.edu/agni/essays/print/2003/58-stavans.html >  >  > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From against.the.dave at gmail.com Fri Jul 4 17:30:00 2008 From: against.the.dave at gmail.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Fri, 4 Jul 2008 17:30:00 -0500 Subject: The world of plastic Message-ID: Friday, July 04, 2008 The world of plastic Here are a few plastic things I put together. I had fond memories of Thomas Pynchon's Gravity's Rainbow, which has a lot of references to the plastics industry, until I re-read it recently. Pynchon produces some mind-bending nuggets you won't find anywhere else, but you have to pick them out of hundreds of pages of overindulgence and forced mystification. The chief attraction is witnessing his mind at work, making connections like it was plugged into the Internet -- a few decades before the Internet existed. And that brings me back to plastic. It comes from oil, which comes from dead dinosaurs and mosquitoes, and sunflowers and saber-toothed tigers drowned in tar pits. In the early days of the Oil Age, long before computers and nano-technology, chemists were stringing molecules together to make plastics. The birth of plastic was the birth of consumerism, and for the first time the masses could afford to surround themselves with piles of manufactured junk and taste an emptiness previously reserved for aristocracy. And the most mind-bending part is: add atoms to a molecule in one way and you get something good for toothbrush bristle or for lubricating your car; add atoms in another way and you get things that lubricate the mind, like LSD or an antidepressant. As much as we hate plastic -- non-biodegradable, synthetic to the touch and eye -- we live in its world. Unless someone's reading this to you, you're looking at plastic right now. We've shaken off the solid world of rocks and dirt, wrapped ourselves in plastic and blasted off for space. I'm not a religious person, but: plastic is just a stage in the shedding of physical form, as the life-force we represent seeks to control its destiny across infinity. I would guess it's our imperative to continue shedding these forms, break free of physicality, take flight, and merge with the light. http://www.restlus.com/2008/07/world-of-plastic.html From markekohut at yahoo.com Sat Jul 5 07:11:45 2008 From: markekohut at yahoo.com (Mark Kohut) Date: Sat, 5 Jul 2008 05:11:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Fw: NYTimes.com: Why Fly When You Can Float? Message-ID: <881014.58705.qm@web38404.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- On Sat, 7/5/08, markekohut at yahoo.com wrote: From: markekohut at yahoo.com Subject: NYTimes.com: Why Fly When You Can Float? To: markekohut at yahoo.com Date: Saturday, July 5, 2008, 8:10 AM #yiv1118964210 footer { font-family:arial, helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:10px;color:#000000;} #yiv1118964210 td.footer { font-family:arial, helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:10px;color:#000000;} #yiv1118964210 a.footer { font-family:arial, helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:10px;color:#000066;} #yiv1118964210 font.emailHeader { font-family:arial, helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:13px;color:#CC6633;font-weight:bold;padding-bottom:4px;} #yiv1118964210 bgc1 { background-color:#F5F4F4;} #yiv1118964210 td.bgc1 { background-color:#F5F4F4;} #yiv1118964210 bgc2 { background-color:#F8F8F8;} #yiv1118964210 td.bgc2 { background-color:#F8F8F8;} #yiv1118964210 { font-family:arial, helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:12px;} #yiv1118964210 td.bodycopy { font-family:arial, helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:12px;} #yiv1118964210 a.bodycopy { font-family:arial, helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:12px;color:#000066;} #yiv1118964210 small { font-family:arial, helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:11px;} #yiv1118964210 td.small { font-family:arial, helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:11px;} #yiv1118964210 a.small { font-family:arial, helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:11px;color:#000066;} #yiv1118964210 advertisement { font-family:arial, helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:9px;color:#999999;} #yiv1118964210 td.advertisement { font-family:arial, helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:9px;color:#999999;} #yiv1118964210 a.advertisement { font-family:arial, helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:9px;color:#000066;} #yiv1118964210 contextadbg { border-top:1px solid #BFBFBF;border-bottom:1px solid #BFBFBF;margin-bottom:3px;} #yiv1118964210 contextadheader { font-family:arial, helvetica, sans-serif;color:#98BC61;font-size:11px;font-weight:bold;} #yiv1118964210 contextaddisclaimer { font-family:arial, helvetica, sans-serif;color:#999999;font-size:10px;padding-bottom:8px;} #yiv1118964210 contextadtext { font-family:arial, helvetica, sans-serif;color:#000000;font-size:11px;padding-top:8px;padding-bottom:8px;padding-left:11px;padding-right:11px;margin-bottom:3px;} #yiv1118964210 contextAdMiscText { font-family:arial, helvetica, sans-serif;color:#000000;font-size:11px;padding-left:11px;padding-right:11px;} This page was sent to you by:  markekohut at yahoo.com BUSINESS / WORLD BUSINESS   | July 5, 2008 Why Fly When You Can Float? By JOHN TAGLIABUE As the cost of fuel soars and the pressure mounts to reduce carbon dioxide emissions, several schemes for a new generation of airship are being considered. 1. Op-Ed Columnist: Rove’s Third Term 2. Editorial: New and Not Improved 3. Well: The 11 Best Foods You Aren’t Eating 4. Op-Ed Columnist: The Luckiest Girl 5. 36 Hours in Pittsburgh »  Go to Complete List Advertisement FROM THE AUTHOR OF FIGHT CLUB - CHOKEWinner of the Special Jury Prize at the 2008 Sundance Film Festival, CHOKE is a wickedly colorful dark comedy starring Sam Rockwell and Anjelica Huston. In Select Theatres September 26th. Click here to watch trailer Copyright 2008  The New York Times Company | Privacy Policy   -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From markekohut at yahoo.com Sat Jul 5 09:28:06 2008 From: markekohut at yahoo.com (Mark Kohut) Date: Sat, 5 Jul 2008 07:28:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Fw: NYTimes.com: Why Fly When You Can Float? Message-ID: <144795.76419.qm@web38401.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- On Sat, 7/5/08, markekohut at yahoo.com wrote: From: markekohut at yahoo.com Subject: NYTimes.com: Why Fly When You Can Float? To: markekohut at yahoo.com Date: Saturday, July 5, 2008, 8:10 AM #yiv272764168 footer { font-family:arial, helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:10px;color:#000000;} #yiv272764168 td.footer { font-family:arial, helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:10px;color:#000000;} #yiv272764168 a.footer { font-family:arial, helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:10px;color:#000066;} #yiv272764168 font.emailHeader { font-family:arial, helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:13px;color:#CC6633;font-weight:bold;padding-bottom:4px;} #yiv272764168 bgc1 { background-color:#F5F4F4;} #yiv272764168 td.bgc1 { background-color:#F5F4F4;} #yiv272764168 bgc2 { background-color:#F8F8F8;} #yiv272764168 td.bgc2 { background-color:#F8F8F8;} #yiv272764168 { font-family:arial, helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:12px;} #yiv272764168 td.bodycopy { font-family:arial, helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:12px;} #yiv272764168 a.bodycopy { font-family:arial, helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:12px;color:#000066;} #yiv272764168 small { font-family:arial, helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:11px;} #yiv272764168 td.small { font-family:arial, helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:11px;} #yiv272764168 a.small { font-family:arial, helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:11px;color:#000066;} #yiv272764168 advertisement { font-family:arial, helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:9px;color:#999999;} #yiv272764168 td.advertisement { font-family:arial, helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:9px;color:#999999;} #yiv272764168 a.advertisement { font-family:arial, helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:9px;color:#000066;} #yiv272764168 contextadbg { border-top:1px solid #BFBFBF;border-bottom:1px solid #BFBFBF;margin-bottom:3px;} #yiv272764168 contextadheader { font-family:arial, helvetica, sans-serif;color:#98BC61;font-size:11px;font-weight:bold;} #yiv272764168 contextaddisclaimer { font-family:arial, helvetica, sans-serif;color:#999999;font-size:10px;padding-bottom:8px;} #yiv272764168 contextadtext { font-family:arial, helvetica, sans-serif;color:#000000;font-size:11px;padding-top:8px;padding-bottom:8px;padding-left:11px;padding-right:11px;margin-bottom:3px;} #yiv272764168 contextAdMiscText { font-family:arial, helvetica, sans-serif;color:#000000;font-size:11px;padding-left:11px;padding-right:11px;} This page was sent to you by:  markekohut at yahoo.com BUSINESS / WORLD BUSINESS   | July 5, 2008 Why Fly When You Can Float? By JOHN TAGLIABUE As the cost of fuel soars and the pressure mounts to reduce carbon dioxide emissions, several schemes for a new generation of airship are being considered. 1. Op-Ed Columnist: Rove’s Third Term 2. Editorial: New and Not Improved 3. Well: The 11 Best Foods You Aren’t Eating 4. Op-Ed Columnist: The Luckiest Girl 5. 36 Hours in Pittsburgh »  Go to Complete List Advertisement FROM THE AUTHOR OF FIGHT CLUB - CHOKEWinner of the Special Jury Prize at the 2008 Sundance Film Festival, CHOKE is a wickedly colorful dark comedy starring Sam Rockwell and Anjelica Huston. In Select Theatres September 26th. Click here to watch trailer Copyright 2008  The New York Times Company | Privacy Policy   -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From markekohut at yahoo.com Sat Jul 5 09:49:38 2008 From: markekohut at yahoo.com (Mark Kohut) Date: Sat, 5 Jul 2008 07:49:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: AtD (34) p. 963 Message-ID: <45036.89837.qm@web38401.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Each day would show Reef, Yashmeen and Ljubica only a further narrowing of choices...   Leitmotif expreseed elsewhere in exactly those words................   "pressed by the movements of forces"......................'they're coming in from all directions".   History is Fate, not freedom (for them)......... -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bekker2 at mac.com Sat Jul 5 10:31:39 2008 From: bekker2 at mac.com (Bekah) Date: Sat, 05 Jul 2008 08:31:39 -0700 Subject: AtD: (35) - (36)? Message-ID: <235505EB-0E20-46B7-9B84-181C07E04270@mac.com> Okay, so here I sit with most of the stuff ready for my supposed start tomorrow. But my section is (36) and I've seen nothing on (35). I'm going to post a synopsis of anecdotal type stuff for (35) and get it on with (36) because I leave on vacation at some unknown time later this month (I hope - this depends on doctors and my next appt is Tuesday. (I don't know what's wrong - they're doing exploratory type things.) If this is not okay send a screaming across the cybers at me. Bekah From markekohut at yahoo.com Sat Jul 5 16:26:40 2008 From: markekohut at yahoo.com (Mark Kohut) Date: Sat, 5 Jul 2008 14:26:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: coffee in M & D, maybe?, and its whole relation to Pynchon and AtD Message-ID: <940166.31668.qm@web38407.mail.mud.yahoo.com> It should be noted that Ekirch’s conclusion about the origins, if not the inadequacies, of seamless sleep was in dispute even before the publication of his book. In “Caffeine and the Coming of the Enlightenment,” a brisk, informative essay that appeared in a 2003 issue of Raritan, Roger Schmidt, an English professor at Idaho State, stands Ekirch’s argument on its head. According to Schmidt, it was the introduction of caffeine and coffee houses in the late seventeenth century, along with the practice of late-night reading, the development of the first accurate clocks and timepieces, and the consolidation of the Protestant ethos (“Time is money”), that worked to devalue the idea of sleep. And this, in turn, “created a demand for better nocturnal lighting.” Just what we need: another chicken-or-egg argument. Never mind. Ekirch is a man on a mission and, to a remarkable degree, he has reclaimed that portion of the circadian cycle which historians have traditionally neglected. He has emptied night’s pockets, and laid the contents out before us. If the resulting work, with all its proverbs, adages, anecdotes, facts, and figures, smells a little of the lamp, it’s a fair trade-off. “At Day’s Close” serves to remind us of night’s ancient mystery, of the real reason we reach for the light switch. Ultimately, it’s not the wattage but Dante’s lustro sopra that we yearn for—God’s grandeur flaming out “like shining from shook foil.” The night may also be His handiwork, but who really likes the dark except vampires and people with sensitive retinas? Darkness suggests ignorance and hopelessness, and, as a symbol of despair or bad tidings, it can’t be beat. Would Sir Edward Grey, the British Foreign Secretary, be remembered half so well had he not mused, after seeing a lamplighter turning up the gas lamps outside his office on the eve of the First World War, “The lamps are going out all over Europe; we shall not see them lit again in our lifetime”? No one wants the lights to go out, and all our valiant attempts to illuminate the night are merely fearful expressions of the permanent darkness that awaits. ♦ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From markekohut at yahoo.com Sat Jul 5 17:01:11 2008 From: markekohut at yahoo.com (Mark Kohut) Date: Sat, 5 Jul 2008 15:01:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Fw: Re: AtDtDA(34): "What is born of the light?"--Cyprian Message-ID: <720220.84946.qm@web38402.mail.mud.yahoo.com> yes, destruction yet, in Pynchon's layers, light also resonateswith, since Augustine, God as lumen, fire....--U. Eco.Here as in GR, Pynchon asks What? Which? With no escluded middle, are BOTH born of light?....Comment welcomed.  -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bekker2 at mac.com Sat Jul 5 19:11:33 2008 From: bekker2 at mac.com (Becky Alexander) Date: Sat, 05 Jul 2008 17:11:33 -0700 Subject: ATDTDA: (35) Part 1 - such as it is Message-ID: <319BFBE6-0FFB-4CCF-BDEB-A3D41FB7711A@mac.com> Hi all, Since it appears there is no movement on "ATD: (35)" I'm going to send what I've found on the Pynchon-Wiki, and a bit from elsewhere, for pages 976 - 1000. It's not too bad on the Mexican Revolution (although that's really complex) and I'm not up to doing that in addition to my own Ludlow, counter-Earth, Chumboys-in-love and moving pictures sections. (There is a bit of new stuff here, though.) I'll take on pages 1000-1007 as the first section of (36) - but still called (35) - more completely because they go with those chapters very nicely. Then I'll pick (36) up tomorrow because I'm (very hopefully) leaving on a jet plane to see my family in the great northland in two weeks or so and for two weeks or so - and then I'm back in school. PLEASE!!!! Feel free to comment in any way you choose. :-) AtD - pages 976-999 late 1912-1913 http://against-the-day.pynchonwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=ATD_976-999 http://chumpsofchoice.blogspot.com/2007/10/what-i-tell-you-three- times-is-true.html The *** s are where I've inserted some stuff not on either of the above pages. ********************************************* Page 976 - *** Stray and Ewball going to Denver to see Ewball's wealthy parents, Moline and (some name) Senior, "elder," Oust, for whom Mayva works. "... the coalfield troubles in southern Colorado..." The United Mine Workers called a stike in Colorado's coalfields north of Denver in 1910 winning a 10 percent wage increase for ten thousand Colorado miners. The union's real target was the larger southern coalfield. A state-wide coal strike was called in September 1913 and lasted 14 months resulted in the Ludlow Massacre of April 20, 1914, in which 20 people were killed. *** (SEE "ATD (36)" coming) *** Stray's been collecting ways to help people with medical stuff "... began in the days of the Madero revolution..." (she will use these supplies in the days to come) "... the Madero revolution..." in 1910, out of Mexico, led by Madera. Ramifications felt in El Paso, where a Senate Committee investigated in 1912 and found Standard Oil partly responsible. Relevant?--a Mormon settlement was investigated as part of the investigation. The Madero (Mexican) Revolution was brought on by, among other factors, tremendous disagreement among the Mexican people over the dictatorship of President Porfirio Diaz. Madero was one of the strongest believers that Diaz should renounce his power and not seek re-election in 1910. He was jailed by Diaz but was able to escape on October 4, 1910, to the US. In San Antonio, Texas, he issued his Plan of San Luis Potosi proclaiming the 1910 election null and void and called for an armed revolution on November 20, 1910 against the "illegitimate" presidency of Diaz. Madero also promised agrarian land reforms to attract Mexico's peasants to his cause. The revolution spread, the Maderista troops, with Pancho Villa in the North and Emiliano Zapata in the South, defeated the army of Diaz within six months, and Diaz resigned on May 25, 1911. Francisco Madero was elected President on October 1, 1911 and assumed power on November 6. http://www.mexconnect.com/MEX/austin/revolution.html http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francisco_I._Madero (better) ********************************************* Page 977 cross-gable Two perpendicular gable roofs; pic and more *** Moline Oust (Ewball's mother) styles herself after Baby Doe Tabor, the Leadville madam (the Ousts had been living in Leadville). *** http://www.babydoetabor.com/ *** Stray plays on the Steinway : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steinway_&_Sons "I'm Going..Salome" Stanley Murphy, lyricist, written before 1909. "I'm going to get myself a black Salome" Composer: Wynn, Ed 1886-1966 Lyrics: Big Bill Jefferson a railroad man (first line of text) Contributors: Murphy, Stanley 1875-1919 Publication Date: 1908 For voice and piano. Cover ill.: African American man watching a belly dancer. Photo of Ed. Wynn. http://tinyurl.com/5maqr8 majolica A particular type of white colour glaze for earthenware ceramics that was known for its ability to mimic (poorly) historically expensive porcelain. Its name comes from the practice of importing it into Europe through the ports of the Balearic island Majorca from the Mid- east. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Majolica ********************************************* Page 978 'Tá bien, no te preocupes, m'hija Spanish: It's all right, don't trouble yourself, my dear. Galluses a pair of suspenders for trousers. "Braces" in British English. Czolgosz Leon Frank Czolgosz (January 24, 1873 – October 29, 1901) was the assassin of U.S. President William McKinley. In the last few years of his short life he was heavily influenced by anarchists like Emma Goldman and Alexander Berkman. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Czolgosz President McKinley William McKinley, Jr. (January 29, 1843 – September 14, 1901) was the 25th President of the United States. from Wikipedia McKinley as president placed the US on the gold standard (remember Dally and the poster for bimetallism). One thousand Fast Lake Navigation, 158 Fast Express, and 206 Automobile Inverts http://www.filbert.com/stamplistopedia/us_inverts/default.htm Also, an interesting little online tidbit which references this stamp with the inverted center to which this page refers. These misprinted ("alternate") stamps, associated with Anarchism, and the philatelically-named Jenny Invert with her similar association to the Anarchist collective at Yz-le-Bans, inevitably call to mind the subtly altered stamps of the anarchist (or at any rate anti- government) Trystero in Lot 49, postage in an alternative, underground communication system. We have, then, the theme of underground, alternative communication introduced again (the first time in AtD is with the London gas pipes). Another philatelically- named female character is Penny Black. http://against-the-day.pynchonwiki.com/wiki/index.php? title=ATD_976-999#Page_978 ********************************************* Page 979 "Mark Hanna's miserable stooge..." Mark Hanna (September 24, 1837–February 15, 1904), born Marcus Alonzo Hanna, was an industrialist and Republican politician from Ohio. He rose to fame as the campaign manager of the successful Republican Presidential candidate William McKinley in the U.S. Presidential election of 1896, in what is considered the forerunner of the modern political campaign, and subsequently became one of the most powerful members of the U.S. Senate. From Wikipedia. Obviously, the stooge refers to McKinley. Strongly suggestive of a parallel to Karl Rove and his miserable stooge. *** Very funny scene here with Ewball stepping on his father's head - *** "... language unfit for the sensitive reader..." either TPR is having a small fit of the intrusive narrator/author or he's mimicking the literature of the day - I'd say the latter but this is not a Chums part and I'm not sure the western genre lit did that. ? *** Mayva adds the ring of a Remington .22 round to the melee. (she'd run out of B.B.s) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BB_gun#History henriettia A fine diagonal twilled (ribbed) dress fabric made with silk warp (vertical threads) and fine worsted (firm-textured) weft (horizontal threads), which makes it resemble Cashmere cloth. Characteristics: Originally consisted of worsted filling and silk warp. Today, it can be found in a variety of blends. It has excellent drapability. It's weight and quality vary with fibres, however, when created with silk and wool it is lustrous and soft. Uses: Dress goods. Textile Dictionary "Œdipal spectacle" (refers to Ewball stepping on his father's head.) From the myth of Oedipus Rex, about a returning son killing his father, rendered infamous through Freud's interpretation of its significance to men and rendered famous by the Sophocles plays in the 5th century B.C. And perhaps a Pynchon in-joke of sorts. The protagonist of Lot 49 is Oedipa Maas (it has been suggested: "More Oedipal"), also in trouble over stamps; in fact "Lot 49" refers to the auction lot of Trystero- altered stamps in the collection of Pierce Inverarity (it has been suggested: "Inverse Rarity"), for whose estate Oedipa is executor. A few pages from here the issue of alternate communication forms will be introduced; these references to the issues in Lot 49 could serve to alert the experienced reader of Pynchon to their importance in AtD. http://against-the-day.pynchonwiki.com/wiki/index.php? title=ATD_976-999#Page_978 ********************************************* Page 981 "... the one with the destiny..." Do we learn anything about this odd Oust child? (Presumably Ewball?). No, this one is apparently a little child when Ewball is a grownup. Maybe a child born with a caul? It would not take much of a prophet to say that such a child has a destiny. *** Some child born in the early 1900s, lived in Denver for at least awhile - money from mining - goes on to become ___________? tintypes A cheap, common and durable form of black and white photographic image where a sensitised collodion is poured upon a thin sheet of soot blackened tin, exposed and developed. Often hand-coloured. The most notable practitioners and teachers of the process in the US are Mark Osterman and France Scully Osterman. *** These were used a lot prior to the US Civil War - I have a photo of one from my family on my web-site - great-great uncle Paul Mikkelson in Civil War regalia. http://homepage.mac.com/bekker2/familyg/Mpaulsonslattun.html (scroll down a bit) ********************************************* From bekker2 at mac.com Sat Jul 5 20:32:11 2008 From: bekker2 at mac.com (Bekah) Date: Sat, 05 Jul 2008 18:32:11 -0700 Subject: ATDTDA: (35) Part II Message-ID: (My sender addie is messing up - sorry.) And the overview of (35) Part II - pgs 982-999 (again, from the Pynchon Wiki unless noted with ***s. ********************************************* Page 982 *** And we now move to Frank in Mexico for the continuing Revolution (about 2 years into a 20 - year civil war) against the Diaz government and then against the Madero government and then ... (see below). This is about 1911/12. http://ic.ucsc.edu/~ksgruesz/ltel190f/PynchonGrid.htm *** More on the revolution: http://cnparm.home.texas.net/Nat/Mx/Mx00.htm map: http://www.emersonkent.com/map_archive/mexico_1910.htm (nutshell version): http://www.emersonkent.com/ wars_and_battles_in_history/mexican_revolution.htm http://tinyurl.com/5rfocf (scroll down) ****!! with good photos including one entitled, "Favorite pastime of Mexican revolutionaries, blowing up trains." *** So first we have the old corrupt Diaz regime, then the Madero government from 1911 to 1913 when Lascuráin Paredes took over the presidency (for Huerta) and after a few days Huerta took office himself for a few years. Huerta was ousted by Venustiano Carranza Garza who, except for a 10 week interruption by Eulalio Gutiérrez Ortiz (1914-15), held the high office until 1920. Magonistas Mexican anarchists, followers of brothers Enrique and Ricardo Flores Magón (1874-1922). During the "Magonista" Revolt of 1911, a short- lived revolutionary commune was set-up in Baja California. In present Mexico, the Flores Magon brothers are considered left wing political icons nearly as notable as Emiliano Zapata, and numerous streets, towns and neighborhoods are named for them. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ricardo_Flores_Magón (very interesting guy - died at Leavenworth) ********************************************* Page 983 *** Morelos A state in southern Mexico. Morelos has always had great revolutionary activity, and numerous guerrillas have made their homes and struggled for justice in the region. Most notably, Anenecuilco in Morelos[clarify] was the home town of Emiliano Zapata; the state was the center of Zapata's Mexican Revolution campaign, and a small city in the Morelos is named after him. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morelos *** nice map: http://www.emersonkent.com/map_archive/ morelos_mexico_map_1910.htm *** More names from the Orozquista - the term for those who followed Pascual Orozco and son in fighting first for the Madero against Diaz and then against Madero (with cause) side of the revolution(s): http://www.tshaonline.org/handbook/online/articles/OO/for8.html Emiliano Zapata - from Morelos, Mexico, begun a serious insurrection against the (Madero) government..." Pascual Orozco 1882-1915, importer of armaments from U.S., maderista, revolted against Madero government in 1912. Pascual Orozco,Jr. (1882-1915) was a Mexican revolutionary hero and leader - first against Diaz and then against Madero. Worked with Pancho Villa - defeated by Huerta.) José Inés Salazar was longtime colleague of Pascual Orozco and later one of the leading Orozquista generals. Braulio Hernández A prominent Maderista but later became a radical Orozquista. Photos of Revolution people: http://www.texancultures.utsa.edu/ library/bakerPhotos.htm (includes Villa, Orozco and Hernandez in different photos) Pancho Villa a prominent leader of the Revolution - joined Orozuistas after Madero's murder José Gonzáles Salas Maderista general in command against Orozco the country around Jiménez . . . The region around Jiménez, a mining center in Chihuahua 130 miles south of Chihuahua City, is known for large number of meteorites, some of them discovered by the Spaniards in 16th and 17th centuries, and now exhibited in Palacio de Mineria (Minery Palace) in Mexico city. http://against-the-day.pynchonwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=J "In 1852, two meteorites were found about 16 miles from Jimenez (formerly Huejuquilla), Chihuahua, Mexico. The two masses were removed in 1891 to the School of Mines, Mexico City." With a weight of 14.114 tons, Chupaderos I is ranked as the 10th largest meteorite in the world; and Chupaderos II with a weight of 6.767 tons ranked 14th. Photos of Chupaderos I and Chupaderos II. *** Chupaderos II meteorite: http://www.jensenmeteorites.com/ Chupaderos/Chupad(II)-1.jpg *** Chupaderos I meteorite: http://www.jensenmeteorites.com/ Chupaderos/Chupad(1)-3.jpg "... the Bolsón de Mapimí" A small desert area east of Jiménez, ********************************************* Page 984 *** Frank is looking around in the Bolsón de Mapimí when he finds a little meteorite (?) which seems to speak to him "máquina loca" Spanish: crazy machine. The translation of máquina is often tuned to the context: here, "locomotive." *** History of trains in Mexico: http://www.2020site.org/ mexicanrailway/central.html *** photo of derailment or bombing/?: http://www.emersonkent.com/ wars_and_battles_in_history/mexican_revolution.htm *** Oh shades of the Kieselguhr Kid. "a sus órdenes" Spanish: (ready) for your orders. In English one would say, "at your service." "One prong of the government attack . . . between Corralitos and Rellano . . ." The Battle of Rellano. The Battle of Rellano was the high-water mark of the Orozquista military campaign. Andale, muchachos Spanish: let's go, boys. ********************************************* Page 985 Parral Parral is where Pancho Villa was assassinated on July 20, 1923. Apparently someone remembered the sacking, dynamiting, looting, and killing. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parral%2C_Chihuahua El Espinero = Tarahumara duende - is this the place Frank was guided to - for a railroad battle? ********************************************* Page 986 *** Victoriano Huerta - fought for Madero until he usurped power himself. Cf page 376 (Frank and Ewball run into Huerta and his men prior to all this) Tampico cf. page 637, where (and when) Frank first meets Günther. Orizaba product One of the leading industries of Orizaba is the Cervecería Moctezuma brewery which was established in 1896. Chiapas cf. page 637 ** Situation not hopeful - Huerta has guns, Orozco no. The "Maquina loca tactic" will eventually fail - (this was the tactic of hiding a hijacked locomotive behind enemy lines and and packing it with explosives. Then sending it full throttle into the cars in front of it. Frank gets to Mexico City where he meets up with Günther von Quassel a "wealthy coffee scion" and Yashmeen's old boyfriend; inhabits "his own idiomatic 'frame of reference'" 599; aka "El Atildado" in Mexico, with Frank Traverse, 637; in Mexico City, 986; "quasseln" is a German verb, meaning roughly "to jabber" ********************************************* Page 987 Gunther and Frank catch up on stuff: Oaxaca http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oaxaca cafetal Spanish: coffee plantation. The work is being mechanized and there is really no insurgency in Oaxaca - only family disputes and banditry. jefe politico Spanish: political boss. Juchitán http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Juchitán_de_Zaragoza Benito Juárez Maza - son of Benito Juarez president of Mexico (1858-1872) Governor of Oaxaca from 1911 until his death the next year. ********************************************* Page 988 chegomista Follower of Che Gómez,mayor of Juichitan, follower of Madero until he was double crossed. http://tinyurl.com/5om2f "El Reparador" Spanish: "The Fixer." Epithet of a hundred operators in crime literature. Or, as the text eventually suggests, "The Repairman." Ibargüengoitia Speculation on this surname: Jorge Ibargüengoitia was a novelist and playwright who wrote, among other things, Los Relámpagos de Agosto (The Lightning of August, 1964), which uses cartoonish mayhem to debunk the Mexican Revolution's heroic myths; improbably it won for its author the Premio Casa de las Américas, despite or because of the consternation which its flippancy caused. Ibargüengoitia is also the name of the "Genevan contact" that Slothrop meets on behalf of Squalidozzi the Argentine anarchist in GR. On p. 384 Squalidozzi's shipmate Belaustegui asks why he didn't deliver the message himself: "Why didn't you go to Geneva and try to get through to us?" "I didn't want to lead them to Ibargüengoitia. I sent someone else." Chapultepec Park Chapultepec Park is an enormous green area in the middle of Mexico City covering 2,000 acres, containing three of the city's most importnat museums, an amusement park, several lakes, the only genuine castle in North America,, Mexico's largest zoo and the residence of the President of Mexico, Los Pinos. Chapultepec Castle is also known as "The Halls of Montezuma." Wie geht's, mein alter Kumpel German: How are you, my old workmate? ********************************************* Page 989 the new Monument to National Independence Mexico City's No.1 landmark. The Monumento de la Independencia, situated on a roundabout at the Paseo de la Reforma (Reform Avenue) in Mexico City's downtown area, was inaugurated in 1910. The sculptures that surround the base represent Law, Justice, War and Peace. On top of the monument is a winged and gilded angel, known as Angel de la Independencia, or just El Angel. See photo of El Angel. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/El_Ángel When his eyes refocused, whoever had spoken had moved on and Frank has, at recognizing Dally's face, gone into the same kind of trance, a merger with the moment, or with the machine, that had almost taken him into the collision with the Federal train on P.985. The warning words seem to be "crazy machine", "dead" and "you". A warning from the Angel of Death, via another Alternate Communication channel. a face he recognized Another angel modeled on Dally? El Angel was sculpted by Enrique Alciati. "máquina loca," "muerte" and "tú" Spanish: "crazy locomotive," "dead" and "you." Why the Angel of Death rather than the Angel of Light? "Frank could see The Angel "in the declining sunlight..." http://www.zanzig.com/travel/mexico-photos/m005-070.htm http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/El_Ángel abrazo Spanish: hug. "sinvergüencistas" From sin vergüenza, Spanish: without shame. The -istas ending makes it refer to a group of adherents. Ibargüengoitia gets Frank and Gunter out of Vera Cruz, down to Frontera . . . to Villahermosa, Tuxtla Gutiérrez . . . and across the Sierra to the Pacific coast where lies Gunter's plantation, on the Pacific coast around Tapachula near the border with Guatemala. "Tu madre chingada puta" Rude, rude Spanish: Your mother's a fucking whore. ********************************************* Page 990 Machine-Age nightmare . . . the future of coffee Another Crazy Machine, or perhaps "Out of Control" machine (the governor on the locomotive on P.985 "no longer regulated anything"). Industrialization has struck again. *** Chamula - a city in Chiapas comprised of Tzotzil Mayan Indians who work (and have been worked) on coffee and sugar plantations. The city is autonomous within Mexico. *** http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tzotzil *** http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tzotzil_people *** Today many in the Zapatista Liberation movement are Tzotzil. *** http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zapatista_Army_of_National_Liberation Chamula is near San Cristóbal http://wild-net.com.au/mexico/html/san_cristobal.phtml Tuxtla - the capital of Chiapas http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuxtla_Gutiérrez (nice positional map of Mexico) Tapachula http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tapachula El Quetzal Dormido The Sleeping Quetzal. Quetzals are elaborately-plumed birds of the genera Pharomachrus and Euptilotis, and are in the trogon family. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quetzal http://cloudbridge.org/avifauna.htm And Frank "had observed, or thought he had ..." " Brujos;" male witches Frank meets Melpómene in "El Quetzal Dormido" Melpómene is the name of the Greek muse of song and tragedy. http:// en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melpomene *** see also "18 Melpomene" a large, bright asteroid located in the Main Belt, discovered by John Russel Hind on June 24, 1852, and named after aforementioned muse. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/18_Melpomene Palenque - a small town in Chiapas, powerful in the Mayan Era. Overrun by jungle today. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palenque ********************************************* Page 991 guayuleros - wild rubber workers of the old days. Pancho Villa´s cross-border raids scared off "guayuleros" in Southwestern U.S. Melpómene tells Frank about the cucuji According to the text they are "giant luminous beetles." Pynchon seems to have read this "Handbook for Travellers" Google Books scan to Mexico, written in 1907, by Thomas Phillip Terry. This passage includes descriptions of reading by their light, simultaneous flashing, use by women under thin veils, and small cages containing several beetles acting as torches http://tinyurl.com/6r8vec tinterillo - told Melpomene that the little cucuji were very bright Legal scribe. A "writer to prepare papers, collect and adduce evidence in legal cases, such as was to be submitted to illiterate judges of such tribunals as then existed." (From here, p 160.) Ahora, apágate Spanish: Now put yourself out, extinguish yourself. Bueno Good. *** And Frank has a little communication going with a beetle named Pedro who lets him know that he is Frank's soul and that all the little lit up beetles are the souls of all who had ever passed through his life and that they all went to make a single soul. *** " 'In the same way,' amplified Gunther, 'that our Savior could inform his disciples with a straight face that bread and wine were indistinguishable from his body and blood. Light, in any case, among these Indians of Chiapas, occupies and analoguous position to flesh among Christians. It is living tissue. As the brain is the outward and visible expression of the Mind.' " Yeah? ********************************************* Page 992 instantaneously In violation of Einstein's special theory of relativity. a wireless, immediate, human way of communicating. Caray . . . novio . . . Spanish: Good heavens . . . boyfriend . . . Mazatán http://www.travelpost.com/NA/Mexico/Chiapas/Mazatan/7645531 Qué Spanish: What, as in "what the fuck?" querida Spanish: dear, darling. ********************************************* Page 993 ** alternate communication systems - telepathic** It is like the telephone exchange . . . the single greater organism remains intact, coherent, connected. Actually not like the telephone exchange. On P. 708, Derrick Theign worries that in case of war, telephone and telegraph will become unreliable; this is his reason for creating the R.U.S.H. This telepathic network, like an unfailing cell phone network, is far more reliable. ** On page 993 Gunther talks about a network of Indians in telepathic communication. Tenochtitlán Tenochtitlán was the capital of the Aztec empire, built on an island in Lake Texcoco in what is now the Federal District in central Mexico. At its height, it was one of the largest cities in the world, with over 200,000 inhabitants. The city was destroyed in 1521 by Spanish conquistadors. Mexico City was erected on top of the ruin. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tenochtitlan Angel of the Fourth Glorieta on Reforma Glorieta is a monument. See the angel, pg. 989. "As a gateway the arch seemed to define two different parts of the city..." *** http://www.flickr.com/photos/44011434 at N00/2404223525 ********************************************* Page 994 He knew what it was but could not find its name in his memory Presumably the unknown menace from which Aztlan's inhabitants fled. But suggestive both of air attack and the menace of North American industrialization. ***!!!! Air attack? What is this? Indeed! the US sends aeroplanes to support Huerta? (NYTimes 5/24/1912) tezontle The colonists and Indian artisans employed local tezontle, a light and porous volcanic rock, to create elaborate facades on buildings. tepetate A porous whitish-yellow rock used in building construction when cut into blocks. As a construction material tepetate has played a major role in the development of modern Mexico. indicative world Very potent phrase. The world of everyday reality, indicating the deepeer reality of the visions? The indicative mood in grammar is the mood of simple declarative statements, plain facts: there was Melpomene, here is a chair. A mood incommensurate with Frank's trance. the Huerta coup Against Madero, who was shot, February 1913. Ciudadela http://archaeology.asu.edu/teo/intro/ciudad.htm Félix Díaz - Huerta supporter until he was duped. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Félix_Díaz Decena Trágica Spanish: the tragic ten days (before the assassination of President Modero) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_decena_trágica Zócalo -A zócalo is a central town square or plaza. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zocalo el palacio blanco Spanish: the white palace Pino Suárez - Vice President of Mexico from 1911 to 1913 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/José_María_Pino_Suárez ********************************************* Page 995 It was the first time he was aware of getting paid for being stupid. Could there be a future in this? Sounds like another Pynchonian 'in- joke'. In "Vineland", Zoyd Wheeler is getting his yearly cheques for precisely that, i.e. doing something stupid. ********************************************* Page 996 ¡Epa! Spanish: Whoa! Soccer (fútbol) announcers interject ¡Epa! when two players have a very physical coming together. Since last September the mine workers' union had been out on strike The Colorado "coal war" of September 1913 to April 1914; here is an eye-opening account. Just a taste of what's coming a bit later in Ludlow: http://www.du.edu/anthro/ludlow/cfhist.html ********************************************* Page 997 Pagosa Springs South Central Colorado town in the heart of the San Juan Forest. 1914 with photos: http://gawiz.com/HistoryoftheRanches.htm ********************************************* Page 998 ...over Wolf Creek Pass, into the San Luis Valley...San Luis Basin...through Fort Garland...up the Sangre de Cristos over North La Veta Pass...the first rooftops of Walsenburg. The route described would take them from the presumably UMW- sympathetic mining country in the San Juans, north and east along current US highway 160 (called the Navaho Trail), across the San Luis Valley and Basin to North La Veta Pass, with Walsenburg and the prairies and canyons of the coal country beyond to the east (the only safe approach to the striking mines). http://tinyurl.com/65g53v The geography of this journey is as carefully described as the various characters' journeys through the Balkans (the description of the view of the Spanish Peaks and Culebra Range are absolutely accurate), and there must be a reason, something these regions have in common. The San Luis Valley and immediately adjacent areas are the furthest northeastern reaches of the Spanish Empire in North America, part of the Province of Nueva Mexico del Norte of New Spain, later Mexico (part of which became the state of New Mexico in 1912). The area around Telluride would be the northern border of Pynchon's vision of Aztlan (it is in fact the northern border of the Pueblo settlements). These are, therefore, like the Balkans, borders between newly industrializing empires and older, tribally-organized, "pre- scientific" cultures (both with indigenous mystical/spiritual traditions, with which the characters interact). Here and in nearby Mexico, mechanization and industrialization of resource extraction are causing heartbreaking exploitation and violence, and the indigenous shamanism and mysticism and their unmediated power are being destroyed by advancing industrial civilization, exactly as described by Dwight Prance on P.777. Niall Ferguson(The War of the World: Twentieth Century Conflict and the Descent of the West, Penguin Press, 2006) points to three demonstrated conditions for becoming a conflict flashpoint: (1) Multi- ethnic population (2) location at the border of a failing empire (3) economic volatility (See note to P.939). Both the Balkans and the American Southwest/Mexico fulfilled those conditions. ********************************************* ** Also see: http://chumpsofchoice.blogspot.com/2007/10/what-i-tell-you-three- times-is-true.html From kelber at mindspring.com Sat Jul 5 21:20:52 2008 From: kelber at mindspring.com (kelber at mindspring.com) Date: Sat, 5 Jul 2008 22:20:52 -0400 (GMT-04:00) Subject: ATDTDA: (35) Part 1 - such as it is Message-ID: <33004189.1215310852558.JavaMail.root@mswamui-cedar.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Thanks, Bekah, for going way beyond the call of duty on this. Re: Czolgosz It's worth reading about him in Emma Goldman's very readable autobiography, Living My Life, via Amazon.com's look-inside feature. Hopefully, I'll have something more pithy to add in a day or so. Laura -----Original Message----- >From: Becky Alexander > >Hi all, >Since it appears there is no movement on "ATD: (35)" I'm going to >send what I've found on the Pynchon-Wiki, and a bit from elsewhere, >for pages 976 - 1000. It's not too bad on the Mexican Revolution >(although that's really complex) and I'm not up to doing that in >addition to my own Ludlow, counter-Earth, Chumboys-in-love and >moving pictures sections. (There is a bit of new stuff here, though.) > >I'll take on pages 1000-1007 as the first section of (36) - but >still called (35) - more completely because they go with those >chapters very nicely. Then I'll pick (36) up tomorrow because I'm >(very hopefully) leaving on a jet plane to see my family in the >great northland in two weeks or so and for two weeks or so - and then >I'm back in school. > >PLEASE!!!! Feel free to comment in any way you choose. :-) > >AtD - pages 976-999 late 1912-1913 > >http://against-the-day.pynchonwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=ATD_976-999 > >http://chumpsofchoice.blogspot.com/2007/10/what-i-tell-you-three- >times-is-true.html > >The *** s are where I've inserted some stuff not on either of >the above pages. > >********************************************* > >Page 976 - > >*** Stray and Ewball going to Denver to see Ewball's wealthy >parents, Moline and (some name) Senior, "elder," Oust, for whom >Mayva works. > >"... the coalfield troubles in southern Colorado..." > >The United Mine Workers called a stike in Colorado's coalfields north >of Denver in 1910 winning a 10 percent wage increase for ten thousand >Colorado miners. The union's real target was the larger southern >coalfield. A state-wide coal strike was called in September 1913 and >lasted 14 months resulted in the Ludlow Massacre of April 20, 1914, >in which 20 people were killed. *** (SEE "ATD (36)" coming) > >*** Stray's been collecting ways to help people with medical >stuff "... began in the days of the Madero revolution..." (she >will use these supplies in the days to come) > >"... the Madero revolution..." > >in 1910, out of Mexico, led by Madera. Ramifications felt in El >Paso, where a Senate Committee investigated in 1912 and found >Standard Oil partly responsible. >Relevant?--a Mormon settlement was investigated as part of the >investigation. >The Madero (Mexican) Revolution was brought on by, among other >factors, tremendous disagreement among the Mexican people over the >dictatorship of President Porfirio Diaz. Madero was one of the >strongest believers that Diaz should renounce his power and not seek >re-election in 1910. He was jailed by Diaz but was able to escape on >October 4, 1910, to the US. In San Antonio, Texas, he issued his Plan >of San Luis Potosi proclaiming the 1910 election null and void and >called for an armed revolution on November 20, 1910 against the >"illegitimate" presidency of Diaz. Madero also promised agrarian land >reforms to attract Mexico's peasants to his cause. The revolution >spread, the Maderista troops, with Pancho Villa in the North and >Emiliano Zapata in the South, defeated the army of Diaz within six >months, and Diaz resigned on May 25, 1911. Francisco Madero was >elected President on October 1, 1911 and assumed power on November 6. > >http://www.mexconnect.com/MEX/austin/revolution.html > >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francisco_I._Madero (better) > >********************************************* > >Page 977 >cross-gable >Two perpendicular gable roofs; pic and more > >*** Moline Oust (Ewball's mother) styles herself after Baby Doe >Tabor, the Leadville madam (the Ousts had been living in Leadville). >*** http://www.babydoetabor.com/ > >*** Stray plays on the Steinway : > >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steinway_&_Sons > >"I'm Going..Salome" >Stanley Murphy, lyricist, written before 1909. >"I'm going to get myself a black Salome" >Composer: Wynn, Ed 1886-1966 Lyrics: Big Bill Jefferson a railroad >man (first line of text) Contributors: Murphy, Stanley 1875-1919 >Publication Date: 1908 For voice and piano. Cover ill.: African >American man watching a belly dancer. Photo of Ed. Wynn. > >http://tinyurl.com/5maqr8 > >majolica >A particular type of white colour glaze for earthenware ceramics that >was known for its ability to mimic (poorly) historically expensive >porcelain. Its name comes from the practice of importing it into >Europe through the ports of the Balearic island Majorca from the Mid- >east. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Majolica > >********************************************* >Page 978 > >'Tá bien, no te preocupes, m'hija >Spanish: It's all right, don't trouble yourself, my dear. > >Galluses >a pair of suspenders for trousers. "Braces" in British English. > >Czolgosz >Leon Frank Czolgosz (January 24, 1873 – October 29, 1901) was the >assassin of U.S. President William McKinley. In the last few years of >his short life he was heavily influenced by anarchists like Emma >Goldman and Alexander Berkman. > >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Czolgosz > >President McKinley > William McKinley, Jr. (January 29, 1843 – September 14, 1901) was >the 25th President of the United States. from Wikipedia McKinley as >president placed the US on the gold standard (remember Dally and the >poster for bimetallism). > >One thousand Fast Lake Navigation, 158 Fast Express, and 206 >Automobile Inverts >http://www.filbert.com/stamplistopedia/us_inverts/default.htm > > > >Also, an interesting little online tidbit which references this stamp >with the inverted center to which this page refers. > >These misprinted ("alternate") stamps, associated with Anarchism, and >the philatelically-named Jenny Invert with her similar association to >the Anarchist collective at Yz-le-Bans, inevitably call to mind the >subtly altered stamps of the anarchist (or at any rate anti- >government) Trystero in Lot 49, postage in an alternative, >underground communication system. We have, then, the theme of >underground, alternative communication introduced again (the first >time in AtD is with the London gas pipes). Another philatelically- >named female character is Penny Black. > >http://against-the-day.pynchonwiki.com/wiki/index.php? >title=ATD_976-999#Page_978 > >********************************************* > >Page 979 >"Mark Hanna's miserable stooge..." >Mark Hanna (September 24, 1837–February 15, 1904), born Marcus Alonzo >Hanna, was an industrialist and Republican politician from Ohio. He >rose to fame as the campaign manager of the successful Republican >Presidential candidate William McKinley in the U.S. Presidential >election of 1896, in what is considered the forerunner of the modern >political campaign, and subsequently became one of the most powerful >members of the U.S. Senate. From Wikipedia. Obviously, the stooge >refers to McKinley. Strongly suggestive of a parallel to Karl Rove >and his miserable stooge. > >*** Very funny scene here with Ewball stepping on his father's head - > >*** "... language unfit for the sensitive reader..." either TPR is >having a small fit of the intrusive narrator/author or he's mimicking >the literature of the day - I'd say the latter but this is not a >Chums part and I'm not sure the western genre lit did that. ? > >*** Mayva adds the ring of a Remington .22 round to the melee. >(she'd run out of B.B.s) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BB_gun#History > >henriettia >A fine diagonal twilled (ribbed) dress fabric made with silk warp >(vertical threads) and fine worsted (firm-textured) weft (horizontal >threads), which makes it resemble Cashmere cloth. Characteristics: >Originally consisted of worsted filling and silk warp. Today, it can >be found in a variety of blends. It has excellent drapability. It's >weight and quality vary with fibres, however, when created with silk >and wool it is lustrous and soft. Uses: Dress goods. Textile Dictionary > > > >"Œdipal spectacle" (refers to Ewball stepping on his father's head.) > From the myth of Oedipus Rex, about a returning son killing his >father, rendered infamous through Freud's interpretation of its >significance to men and rendered famous by the Sophocles plays in the >5th century B.C. > >And perhaps a Pynchon in-joke of sorts. The protagonist of Lot 49 is >Oedipa Maas (it has been suggested: "More Oedipal"), also in trouble >over stamps; in fact "Lot 49" refers to the auction lot of Trystero- >altered stamps in the collection of Pierce Inverarity (it has been >suggested: "Inverse Rarity"), for whose estate Oedipa is executor. A >few pages from here the issue of alternate communication forms will >be introduced; these references to the issues in Lot 49 could serve >to alert the experienced reader of Pynchon to their importance in >AtD. http://against-the-day.pynchonwiki.com/wiki/index.php? >title=ATD_976-999#Page_978 > >********************************************* > >Page 981 >"... the one with the destiny..." >Do we learn anything about this odd Oust child? (Presumably Ewball?). >No, this one is apparently a little child when Ewball is a grownup. >Maybe a child born with a caul? It would not take much of a prophet >to say that such a child has a destiny. > >*** Some child born in the early 1900s, lived in Denver for at least >awhile - money from mining - goes on to become ___________? > >tintypes >A cheap, common and durable form of black and white photographic >image where a sensitised collodion is poured upon a thin sheet of >soot blackened tin, exposed and developed. Often hand-coloured. The >most notable practitioners and teachers of the process in the US are >Mark Osterman and France Scully Osterman. > >*** These were used a lot prior to the US Civil War - I have a photo >of one from my family on my web-site - great-great uncle Paul >Mikkelson in Civil War regalia. > >http://homepage.mac.com/bekker2/familyg/Mpaulsonslattun.html >(scroll down a bit) > >********************************************* > > From robinlandseadel at comcast.net Sat Jul 5 21:31:19 2008 From: robinlandseadel at comcast.net (robinlandseadel at comcast.net) Date: Sun, 06 Jul 2008 02:31:19 +0000 Subject: AtDtDA(34): That Which Dwells Message-ID: <070620080231.6104.48702E7700055116000017D82215575114040A0B0E0A9C0B020E0402070D019D@comcast.net> Dear Dave, I'm so glad you worked on this section with your usual devotion. My house was robbed last week, the computer was stolen and the west side of the house was trashed the east was just the usual mess. So I was out of commission---dark as the night, the e-mail equlvalent of dead---in any case, this is some of the deepest stuff OBA's ever pulled outta his ass, with correspondence by DM that shows just how deep it goes. Gotta get me a copy of "The White Goddess," toot-sweet. Dave Monroe: "'You are familiar with the idea of the Shekinah--That which dwells?'". . . . From kelber at mindspring.com Sat Jul 5 22:13:49 2008 From: kelber at mindspring.com (kelber at mindspring.com) Date: Sat, 5 Jul 2008 23:13:49 -0400 (EDT) Subject: AtD (34) p. 963 and 969 Message-ID: <6285529.1215314029976.JavaMail.root@mswamui-cedar.atl.sa.earthlink.net> "... a further narrowing of choices" degenerates into something approaching determinism, by p. 969: "It would be many years before he learned that this dog's name was Ksenjia, and that she was the intimate companion of Pugnax, whose human associates the Chums of Chance had been invisibly but attentively keeping an eye on the progress of Reef's family exfiltration from the Balkan Peninsula. Her task at this juncture was to steer everyone to safety without appearing to." This is the first instance of the Chums actively controlling what's going on down below. Very different from their earlier "prime directive" of non-interference, when they were taking orders from some unknown controlling force. Now that they're on their own, they no longer leave things to chance, they ARE Chance, rigidly controlling people who mistakenly think themselves free agents. One has to wonder why they're so determined to help Reef and his family (as opposed to, say, Yashmeen and her family). Laura -----Original Message----- >From: Mark Kohut >Sent: Jul 5, 2008 10:49 AM >To: pynchon -l >Subject: AtD (34) p. 963 > >Each day would show Reef, Yashmeen and Ljubica only a further narrowing of choices... >  >Leitmotif expreseed elsewhere in exactly those words................ >  >"pressed by the movements of forces"......................'they're coming in from all directions". >  >History is Fate, not freedom (for them)......... > > From markekohut at yahoo.com Sun Jul 6 08:40:24 2008 From: markekohut at yahoo.com (Mark Kohut) Date: Sun, 6 Jul 2008 06:40:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: on coffee in M &D,maybe, and its connection to the oeuvre of TRP Message-ID: <813795.31047.qm@web38404.mail.mud.yahoo.com>  The section from a New Yorker review which I copied yesterday was not visible to everyone.   And, today, I found this synopsis of the original article which is not online/ With a link to the New Yorker review which I cited---the last two paragraphs of, which brought in some generalties (and possible disagreements).   http://blog.lib.umn.edu/coxxx063/deception/022222.html -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From igrlivingston at gmail.com Sun Jul 6 11:08:42 2008 From: igrlivingston at gmail.com (Ian Livingston) Date: Sun, 6 Jul 2008 09:08:42 -0700 Subject: Fw: Re: AtDtDA(34): "What is born of the light?"--Cyprian In-Reply-To: <720220.84946.qm@web38402.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <720220.84946.qm@web38402.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <95cde1ee0807060908g151c0961y3112c49dacb3ad05@mail.gmail.com> According to Jung, in the Mysterium Coniunctionis, what is born of light is shadow. There also we learn where Cyprian got his name and who he is. More on this later, I am running on short power. -i On Sat, Jul 5, 2008 at 3:01 PM, Mark Kohut wrote: > yes, destruction yet, in Pynchon's layers, light also resonates > > with, since Augustine, God as lumen, fire....--U. Eco. > > Here as in GR, Pynchon asks What? Which? With no > > escluded middle, are BOTH born of light?....Comment welcomed. > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bekker2 at mac.com Sun Jul 6 12:57:49 2008 From: bekker2 at mac.com (Bekah) Date: Sun, 06 Jul 2008 10:57:49 -0700 Subject: ATDTDA: (35) pages 1000- 1007 Message-ID: <1630D887-A34F-46EB-81E5-148D9F4C313F@mac.com> The year is about 1914 and Scarsdale, Foley, Frank and Eweball are all in Trinidad (Trinity), Colorado which is ready to explode behind the union issues: **************************** Page 1000 Foley is at the "L.A.H.D.I.D.A" ( la-di-da: pretentious) confab "Las Animas-Huerfano Delegation of the Industrial Defense Alliance" = Las Animas and Huerfano Counties, in southeastern/south-central Colorado, are the site of the southern Colorado coalfields, ground of the bloody 1913-14 Colorado Las Animas = souls / short for Animas Perdidas (lost souls) Huerfeno = orphan These are the names of the Colorado counties in which the coal miners were striking. And Scarsdale gives a little stereotypical greedy capitalist talk to the L.A.H.D.I.D.A group. **************************** Page 1001 From Scarsdale's intense little speech, "Money speaks, the land listens, where the Anarchist skulked, where the horse-thief plied his trade, we fishers of Americans will cast our nets of perfect ten acre mesh, levelled and varmint-proofed, ready to build on. Where alien mockers and jackers went creeping after their miserable communistic dreams the good lowland townfolk will come up by the netful, clean, industrious, Christian, while we, gazing out over their little vacation bungalows, will dwell in top-dollar palazzos befitting our station which their mortgage money will be paying to build for us. When the scars of these battles have faded, and the tailings are covered in bunchgrass and wildflowers, and the coming of the snows is no longer the year's curse but its promise, awaited eagerly for its influx of moneyed seekers after wintertime recreation, when the shining strands of telpherage have subdued every mountainside and all is festival and wholesome sport and eugenically-chosen stock, who will be left anymore to remember the jabbering Union scum, the frozen corpses whose names, false in any case, have gone forever unrecorded? who will care that once men fought as if an eight -our day, a few coins more at the end of the week, were everything, were worth the merciless wind beneath the shabby roof, the tears freezing on a woman's face worn to dark Indian stupor before its time, the whining of children whose maws were never satisfied, whose future, those who survived, was always to toil for us, to fetch and feed and nurse, to ride the far fences of our properties, to stand watch between us and those who would intrude or question? " with a bit of prophesying about the great ski-country of the future. "perfect ten-acre mesh" Mutilation of the land by imposition of straight lines on it. A grid. Oh the ghosts of M & D. "telpherage" Cars suspended from overhead cables, or the system of cables or the conveyance of vehicles or loads by means of electricity. Meanwhile, Foley's contemplating something over there in the shadows. Scarsdale goes down the mountain to the coal area to take a look and while he is in a car on his train (the Juggernaut) he sees someone - someone he knows - who? What ghost is this - he knows - he doesn't know. **************************** Page 1002 Foley comes in and Foley has seen ghosts too, although not recent Scarsdale's visitor. Nevertheless, Foley sees that Scarsdale is quite aware of the ghosts - "It doesn't matter, Foley. It's all in the hands of Jesus, isn't it? Could happen any time and to tell you the truth, I look forward to being one of the malevalent dead." Scarsdale has a death wish? How long has this been going on? Since Venice? This is getting very fatalist on the part of Scarsdale - everybody - Pynchon? Frank and Ewball get their stuff dropped off at Walsenburg * from the last chapter -this is medical stuff Frank and Ewball picked up in Denver from Wren and Doc Zhao's- it's for the striking miners - Dr. Zhao knows Stray. It may be herbals or guns or who knows. http://neighbors.denverpost.com/album_pic.php?pic_id=1695 Chinese New Year's in Denver ca. 1899 - and then Frank and Ewball head to Trinidad where there are militia men all over the place - On October 28, as strike-related violence mounted, Colorado governor Elias M. Ammons, called in the Colorado National Guard. At first, the guard's appearance calmed the situation. But the sympathies of the militia leaders were quickly seen by the strikers to lie with company management. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ludlow_Massacre "Though Ammons intended the militia to act as a peacekeeping body, his good intentions were not to be, as the militias' presence led to even more confrontations." http:// www.santafetrailscenicandhistoricbyway.org/ludlow.html "As the cost of supporting a force of 695 enlisted men and 397 officers in the field bankrupted the state, all but two of the militia companies were withdrawn after six months. The militia companies that remained were made up primarily of mine guards." http://www.du.edu/anthro/ludlow/cfhist3.html "... the strikers, who were Greeks and Bulgarians, Serbs and Croats, Montenegrins and Italians..." = The workforce itself was largely immigrant labor from Southern and Eastern Europe, who had been brought in as strikebreakers in 1903 (Beshoar 1957:1; McGovern and Guttridge 1972:50). Before the strike, the UMW counted 24 distinct languages in the Southern Field coal camps. In 1912, 61% of Colorado's coal miners were of "non-Western European origin" (Whiteside 1991:48). This obviously had consequences for organizing the miners and maintaining unity among them during the strike. It also resulted in the strike and its violence being seen largely as a result of Greek and Balkan culture, rather than the conditions in the Southern Colorado coalfields. From the account of "Coal War History" provided by the Colorado Coal Field War Project. http://www.du.edu/anthro/ludlow/cfhist.html (I'd say the strikers got their acts together here, at this point anyway, with a very real common enemy and did something - they weren't fighting each other - the union had a very complete list of demands (see http://www.du.edu/anthro/ludlow/cfhist2.html Ewball thinks that the fighting of the Balkan areas is unknown here in the coalfields (or US?) "they just drop those ancient hatreds , drop 'em flat, and become brothers-in-arems, 'cause they recognize this right away for just what it is." But the owners seem to encourage stories about "sharpshooters from the Balkan War and such, and Greek mountain fighters. Serbs with an appetite for cruelty, Bulgars with a reputation for unspeakable sex, all those alien races coming over here and making miserable the livse of the poor innocent plutes, who were only trying to get by like everybody else." In some areas, the mining operators took care to bring in more varied linguistic groups so that communication would be more difficult. As the "Coal War History" indicates, those stories are still haunting the books. (See Finnish and Balkan groups in Minnesota 1907 / 1916 / etc. There is a really good Young Adult book about the life of a young Minnesota miner family called "The Journal of Otto Peltonen" which includes an enormous amount of factual information on the situation there - iron ore, Finns first then Balkan immigrants, strikes, spies, the whole 9 yards. - scary stuff - this is where my dad's family was from so that's the interest for me.) **************************** Page 1003 Ewball also figures there are ghosts around - Balkan Ghosts (see the Balkan history by Robert Kaplan of that name which has absolutely nothing to do with Ludlow.) Frank thinks Ewball is nuts. Trinidad: Columbian Hotel "Centerpiece of Trinidad Since 1879" http://photoswest.org/cgi-bin/imager?10001913+X-1913 They see Foley Walker outside the hotel. "... Rockefeller couldn't make it..." Rockefeller owned the Colorado Fuel and Iron Company which had its big operations near Pueblo, Co. but also owned a mine or two in the Ludlow area. He testified before Congress about it later: http:// historymatters.gmu.edu/d/5735/ (interesting stuff) also: http:// www.pbs.org/wgbh/amex/rockefellers/sfeature/sf_8.html Rockefeller eventually got much of the blame for what happened at Ludlow. http://tinyurl.com/67d3y4 Trinidad Main Street - early 1900s http://www.trinidadco.com/ **************************** Page 1004 Ewball: "They say Foley's a born-again Christer, so he can act as bad as he wants because Jesus is coming and nothin a human can do so bad Jesus won't forgive it." Well, that's curious turn - when did this happen - did I miss something? But Ewball has other sources of info. "Toltec Hotel" Established around 1910. By 2004 "one of historic Trinidad's most famous but most dilapidated buildings" http://photoswest.org/cgi-bin/imager?10001874+X-1874 Mother Jones Mary Harris Jones (1830-1930), labor organizer and advocate. A speech she made in Trinidad climaxed with: "Rise up and strike . . . strike until the last one of you drop into your graves. We are going to stand together and never surrender. Boys, always remember you ain't got a damn thing if you ain't got a union!" ** see next post for a bit on Mother Jones' Autobiography Frank and Ewball make a plan to meet up with Scarsdale and Vibe after lunch "the C.F.I. office" Colorado Fuel and Iron - Rockefeller owned - see above; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colorado_Fuel_and_Iron **************************** Page 1005 Ewball, on the subject of who will pull the trigger: "Well, he's yours by the laws of vengeance, sure.... that's if you want him." Frank is "disingenuous" when he suggests that Ewball take on Scarsdale and himself shoot Foley. "psychological talk, and that... A way of getting back at your Pa, and so forth. Back east thoughts, horseshit of course." They flip a silver quarter for it and the reader is not told at this time who gets the pleasure of gunning whom. "Where the buildings ended, nothing could be seen above the surface of the street... only an intense radiance filling the gap, a halo or glory out of which anything might emerge, into which anything might be taken, a portal of silver transfiguration, as if being displayed from teh viewpoint of (let us imagine) a fallen gunfighter." "a halo or glory" is a ring of light that surrounds a person in art. They are often used in religious works to depict holy or sacred figures, and have at various periods also been used in images of rulers or heroes. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halo_ (religious_iconography) Also in nature, "a halo" or nimbus, icebow or gloriole is an optical phenomenon that appears near or around the Sun or Moon, and sometimes near other strong light sources such as street lights. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halo_(optical_phenomenon) "Out of which a fallen gunfighter might emerge." Trinidad had a history of gunfights - Frank Loving and John Allen Trinidad gunfight in 1880: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trinidad_Gunfight And in 1882, the City of Trinidad hired Bat Masterson to come in and clean up the town. But when he left town (after working with the Earp brothers to clear Doc Holliday) in 1883 it was cleared of gunfights and ready for coal fights. http://www.sangres.com/history/batmasterson.htm Sounds to me like TPR wants to set it up like a movie scenario of the typical gunfight / shoot out. All that's missing is the music, so may I suggest - http://www.youtube.com/watch? v=qSqr35HZ5Bc&feature=related (The Man With No Name - Clint Eastwood) Frank borrows a .44 peacemaker from Ewball because his Smith & Wesson needs a spring. - Frank has been keeping the cartridges from the old Confederate Colt which was given to Mayva but they were supposed to be for Deuce Kindred. - Oh well ... Peacemaker: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single_Action_Army These use the same cartridges? Ewball has a strange kind of anarchism ideas which has some bearing on something here - I don't know what. The two would-be gunmen take their places, Frank in an alley between a photographer's shop and a feed and seed (sounds like where I live) and Ewball across the street. (music while they wait?) ********************* Page 1006 - German Parabellum - a gun http://www.dreamstime.com/german-parabellum-pistole-(pistol- parabellum)-image4855028 Scarsdale sees them but is not "heeled" (armed) so he barks: "Well you see them as clearly as I do, Foley. Take care of it." Foley has a Luger (the Parabellum) and directs it at Scarsdale's heart. " Scarsdale Vibe peered back as if only curious. 'Lord, Foley...' " "Jesus is Lord... " cried Foley and pulled the trigger - eight times. Foley: " 'Hope you fellows don't mind, but it's payday today and I've been in line years ahead of you.' " Frank and Ewball quietly disappear into the crowd while Foley waits patiently for the militia coming down the street. And in the middle of snow and horse shit, Scarsdale bleeds out his blood "nearly black in this midwinter light" and joins the ghosts. Ewball is embarrassed that he didn't get to shoot Scarsdale - (I guess he won the coin toss.) Ewball: "It wasn't you bringing over a supply wagon." ??? (Frank apparently doesn't know either.) ********************************** bekah From bekker2 at mac.com Sun Jul 6 13:55:40 2008 From: bekker2 at mac.com (Bekah) Date: Sun, 06 Jul 2008 11:55:40 -0700 Subject: ATDTDA: (35) Part II - a very brief comment In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6C22CBDE-C7C4-422D-8BCE-A07148C037DD@mac.com> I thought the Angels toward the end of this section were pretty cool. - Angel of Life or Angel of Death or Angel of Independence or Angel of what? Dualities again. Something about the futility of trying to deal in them alone? Are we capable? The Mexican revolution was adequately done but imo, there was a lot of background missing for US readers. You had to read pretty carefully to catch the railroad bombings and anarchist sections - and Lord knows I didn't get into them. The glowing beetles as human souls connected by something "representing" all humanity were exquisite. There were a lot of funny parts in this section - some shades of Carlos Castaneda again - but Mexican magic always seems to come down to either him or Garcia. Bekah On Jul 5, 2008, at 6:32 PM, Bekah wrote: > (My sender addie is messing up - sorry.) > > And the overview of (35) Part II - pgs 982-999 (again, from the > Pynchon Wiki unless noted with ***s. > > ********************************************* > Page 982 > > *** And we now move to Frank in Mexico for the continuing > Revolution (about 2 years into a 20 - year civil war) against the > Diaz government and then against the Madero government and > then ... (see below). This is about 1911/12. > > http://ic.ucsc.edu/~ksgruesz/ltel190f/PynchonGrid.htm > > *** More on the revolution: > > http://cnparm.home.texas.net/Nat/Mx/Mx00.htm > > map: http://www.emersonkent.com/map_archive/mexico_1910.htm > > (nutshell version): http://www.emersonkent.com/ > wars_and_battles_in_history/mexican_revolution.htm > > http://tinyurl.com/5rfocf (scroll down) > > ****!! with good photos including one entitled, "Favorite pastime > of Mexican revolutionaries, blowing up trains." > > > > > *** So first we have the old corrupt Diaz regime, then the Madero > government from 1911 to 1913 when Lascuráin Paredes took over the > presidency (for Huerta) and after a few days Huerta took office > himself for a few years. Huerta was ousted by Venustiano > Carranza Garza who, except for a 10 week interruption by Eulalio > Gutiérrez Ortiz (1914-15), held the high office until 1920. > Magonistas > > Mexican anarchists, followers of brothers Enrique and Ricardo > Flores Magón (1874-1922). During the "Magonista" Revolt of 1911, a > short-lived revolutionary commune was set-up in Baja California. In > present Mexico, the Flores Magon brothers are considered left wing > political icons nearly as notable as Emiliano Zapata, and numerous > streets, towns and neighborhoods are named for them. > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ricardo_Flores_Magón (very > interesting guy - died at Leavenworth) > > ********************************************* > > Page 983 > *** Morelos > A state in southern Mexico. Morelos has always had great > revolutionary activity, and numerous guerrillas have made their > homes and struggled for justice in the region. Most notably, > Anenecuilco in Morelos[clarify] was the home town of Emiliano > Zapata; the state was the center of Zapata's Mexican Revolution > campaign, and a small city in the Morelos is named after him. > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morelos > > *** nice map: http://www.emersonkent.com/map_archive/ > morelos_mexico_map_1910.htm > > *** More names from the Orozquista - the term for those who > followed Pascual Orozco and son in fighting first for the Madero > against Diaz and then against Madero (with cause) side of the > revolution(s): > > http://www.tshaonline.org/handbook/online/articles/OO/for8.html > > Emiliano Zapata - from Morelos, Mexico, begun a serious > insurrection against the (Madero) government..." > > Pascual Orozco 1882-1915, importer of armaments from U.S., > maderista, revolted against Madero government in 1912. > > Pascual Orozco,Jr. (1882-1915) was a Mexican revolutionary hero and > leader - first against Diaz and then against Madero. Worked with > Pancho Villa - defeated by Huerta.) > > José Inés Salazar was longtime colleague of Pascual Orozco and > later one of the leading Orozquista generals. > > Braulio Hernández A prominent Maderista but later became a radical > Orozquista. > > Photos of Revolution people: http://www.texancultures.utsa.edu/ > library/bakerPhotos.htm (includes Villa, Orozco and > Hernandez in different photos) > > Pancho Villa a prominent leader of the Revolution - joined > Orozuistas after Madero's murder > > José Gonzáles Salas Maderista general in command against Orozco > > the country around Jiménez . . . > The region around Jiménez, a mining center in Chihuahua 130 miles > south of Chihuahua City, is known for large number of meteorites, > some of them discovered by the Spaniards in 16th and 17th > centuries, and now exhibited in Palacio de Mineria (Minery Palace) > in Mexico city. > > http://against-the-day.pynchonwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=J > > "In 1852, two meteorites were found about 16 miles from Jimenez > (formerly Huejuquilla), Chihuahua, Mexico. The two masses were > removed in 1891 to the School of Mines, Mexico City." With a > weight of 14.114 tons, Chupaderos I is ranked as the 10th largest > meteorite in the world; and Chupaderos II with a weight of 6.767 > tons ranked 14th. Photos of Chupaderos I and Chupaderos II. > > *** Chupaderos II meteorite: http://www.jensenmeteorites.com/ > Chupaderos/Chupad(II)-1.jpg > > *** Chupaderos I meteorite: http://www.jensenmeteorites.com/ > Chupaderos/Chupad(1)-3.jpg > > > > "... the Bolsón de Mapimí" > > A small desert area east of Jiménez, > > ********************************************* > > Page 984 > *** Frank is looking around in the Bolsón de Mapimí when he finds > a little meteorite (?) which seems to speak to him > "máquina loca" > Spanish: crazy machine. The translation of máquina is often tuned > to the context: here, "locomotive." > > *** History of trains in Mexico: http://www.2020site.org/ > mexicanrailway/central.html > > *** photo of derailment or bombing/?: http://www.emersonkent.com/ > wars_and_battles_in_history/mexican_revolution.htm > > *** Oh shades of the Kieselguhr Kid. > > "a sus órdenes" > > Spanish: (ready) for your orders. In English one would say, "at > your service." > > "One prong of the government attack . . . between Corralitos and > Rellano . . ." > The Battle of Rellano. The Battle of Rellano was the high-water > mark of the Orozquista military campaign. > > Andale, muchachos > > Spanish: let's go, boys. > > ********************************************* > > Page 985 > Parral > Parral is where Pancho Villa was assassinated on July 20, 1923. > Apparently someone remembered the sacking, dynamiting, looting, and > killing. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parral%2C_Chihuahua > > El Espinero = Tarahumara duende - is this the place Frank was > guided to - for a railroad battle? > > ********************************************* > > Page 986 > *** Victoriano Huerta - fought for Madero until he usurped power > himself. Cf page 376 (Frank and Ewball run into Huerta and his men > prior to all this) > > Tampico > > cf. page 637, where (and when) Frank first meets Günther. > > Orizaba product > One of the leading industries of Orizaba is the Cervecería > Moctezuma brewery which was established in 1896. > > Chiapas > cf. page 637 > > ** Situation not hopeful - Huerta has guns, Orozco no. > > The "Maquina loca tactic" will eventually fail - (this was the > tactic of hiding a hijacked locomotive behind enemy lines and and > packing it with explosives. Then sending it full throttle into the > cars in front of it. > > Frank gets to Mexico City where he meets up with > > Günther von Quassel > > a "wealthy coffee scion" and Yashmeen's old boyfriend; inhabits > "his own idiomatic 'frame of reference'" 599; aka "El Atildado" in > Mexico, with Frank Traverse, 637; in Mexico City, 986; > > "quasseln" is a German verb, meaning roughly "to jabber" > > ********************************************* > > Page 987 > > Gunther and Frank catch up on stuff: > > Oaxaca http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oaxaca > > cafetal > Spanish: coffee plantation. > > The work is being mechanized and there is really no insurgency in > Oaxaca - only family disputes and banditry. > > jefe politico > Spanish: political boss. > > Juchitán > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Juchitán_de_Zaragoza > > Benito Juárez Maza - son of Benito Juarez president of Mexico > (1858-1872) Governor of Oaxaca from 1911 until his death the next > year. > > ********************************************* > Page 988 > > chegomista > Follower of Che Gómez,mayor of Juichitan, follower of Madero until > he was double crossed. > > http://tinyurl.com/5om2f > > "El Reparador" > Spanish: "The Fixer." Epithet of a hundred operators in crime > literature. Or, as the text eventually suggests, "The Repairman." > > Ibargüengoitia > Speculation on this surname: Jorge Ibargüengoitia was a novelist > and playwright who wrote, among other things, Los Relámpagos de > Agosto (The Lightning of August, 1964), which uses cartoonish > mayhem to debunk the Mexican Revolution's heroic myths; improbably > it won for its author the Premio Casa de las Américas, despite or > because of the consternation which its flippancy caused. > > Ibargüengoitia is also the name of the "Genevan contact" that > Slothrop meets on behalf of Squalidozzi the Argentine anarchist in GR. > > On p. 384 Squalidozzi's shipmate Belaustegui asks why he didn't > deliver the message himself: > "Why didn't you go to Geneva and try to get through to us?" > "I didn't want to lead them to Ibargüengoitia. I sent someone else." > > Chapultepec Park > Chapultepec Park is an enormous green area in the middle of Mexico > City covering 2,000 acres, containing three of the city's most > importnat museums, an amusement park, several lakes, the only > genuine castle in North America,, Mexico's largest zoo and the > residence of the President of Mexico, Los Pinos. Chapultepec Castle > is also known as "The Halls of Montezuma." > > Wie geht's, mein alter Kumpel > German: How are you, my old workmate? > > ********************************************* > Page 989 > > the new Monument to National Independence > Mexico City's No.1 landmark. The Monumento de la Independencia, > situated on a roundabout at the Paseo de la Reforma (Reform Avenue) > in Mexico City's downtown area, was inaugurated in 1910. The > sculptures that surround the base represent Law, Justice, War and > Peace. On top of the monument is a winged and gilded angel, known > as Angel de la Independencia, or just El Angel. See photo of > El Angel. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/El_Ángel > > When his eyes refocused, whoever had spoken had moved on and Frank > has, at recognizing Dally's face, gone into the same kind of > trance, a merger with the moment, or with the machine, that had > almost taken him into the collision with the Federal train on P. > 985. The warning words seem to be "crazy machine", "dead" and > "you". A warning from the Angel of Death, via another Alternate > Communication channel. > > > a face he recognized > Another angel modeled on Dally? El Angel was sculpted by Enrique > Alciati. > > "máquina loca," "muerte" and "tú" > Spanish: "crazy locomotive," "dead" and "you." > > > Why the Angel of Death rather than the Angel of Light? > "Frank could see The Angel "in the declining sunlight..." > > http://www.zanzig.com/travel/mexico-photos/m005-070.htm > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/El_Ángel > > abrazo > Spanish: hug. > > "sinvergüencistas" > From sin vergüenza, Spanish: without shame. The -istas ending makes > it refer to a group of adherents. > > Ibargüengoitia gets Frank and Gunter out of Vera Cruz, down to > Frontera . . . to Villahermosa, Tuxtla Gutiérrez . . . and across > the Sierra to the Pacific coast where lies Gunter's plantation, on > the Pacific coast around Tapachula near the border with Guatemala. > > "Tu madre chingada puta" > Rude, rude Spanish: Your mother's a fucking whore. > > > > ********************************************* > Page 990 > > Machine-Age nightmare . . . the future of coffee > Another Crazy Machine, or perhaps "Out of Control" machine (the > governor on the locomotive on P.985 "no longer regulated > anything"). Industrialization has struck again. > > *** Chamula - a city in Chiapas comprised of Tzotzil Mayan Indians > who work (and have been worked) on coffee and sugar plantations. > The city is autonomous within Mexico. > > *** http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tzotzil > > *** http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tzotzil_people > > *** Today many in the Zapatista Liberation movement are Tzotzil. > > *** http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ > Zapatista_Army_of_National_Liberation > > Chamula is near San Cristóbal > > http://wild-net.com.au/mexico/html/san_cristobal.phtml > > Tuxtla - the capital of Chiapas > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuxtla_Gutiérrez (nice positional map > of Mexico) > > Tapachula > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tapachula > > El Quetzal Dormido > The Sleeping Quetzal. Quetzals are elaborately-plumed birds of the > genera Pharomachrus and Euptilotis, and are in the trogon family. > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quetzal > > http://cloudbridge.org/avifauna.htm > > > > And Frank "had observed, or thought he had ..." " > > Brujos;" male witches > > Frank meets Melpómene in "El Quetzal Dormido" > > Melpómene is the name of the Greek muse of song and tragedy. http:// > en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melpomene > > *** see also "18 Melpomene" a large, bright asteroid located in > the Main Belt, discovered by John Russel Hind on June 24, 1852, and > named after aforementioned muse. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ > 18_Melpomene > > > Palenque - a small town in Chiapas, powerful in the Mayan Era. > Overrun by jungle today. > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palenque > > ********************************************* > Page 991 > > guayuleros - wild rubber workers of the old days. Pancho Villa´s > cross-border raids scared off "guayuleros" in Southwestern U.S. > > Melpómene tells Frank about the cucuji > According to the text they are "giant luminous beetles." Pynchon > seems to have read this "Handbook for Travellers" Google Books scan > to Mexico, written in 1907, by Thomas Phillip Terry. This passage > includes descriptions of reading by their light, simultaneous > flashing, use by women under thin veils, and small cages containing > several beetles acting as torches > > http://tinyurl.com/6r8vec > > tinterillo - told Melpomene that the little cucuji were very bright > Legal scribe. A "writer to prepare papers, collect and adduce > evidence in legal cases, such as was to be submitted to illiterate > judges of such tribunals as then existed." (From here, p 160.) > > > > > Ahora, apágate > Spanish: Now put yourself out, extinguish yourself. > > Bueno > Good. > > > > *** And Frank has a little communication going with a beetle named > Pedro who lets him know that he is Frank's soul and that all the > little lit up beetles are the souls of all who had ever passed > through his life and that they all went to make a single soul. > > *** " 'In the same way,' amplified Gunther, 'that our Savior could > inform his disciples with a straight face that bread and wine were > indistinguishable from his body and blood. Light, in any case, > among these Indians of Chiapas, occupies and analoguous position to > flesh among Christians. It is living tissue. As the brain is the > outward and visible expression of the Mind.' " > > Yeah? > > ********************************************* > Page 992 > > instantaneously > In violation of Einstein's special theory of relativity. a > wireless, immediate, human way of communicating. > > Caray . . . novio . . . > Spanish: Good heavens . . . boyfriend . . . > > Mazatán > http://www.travelpost.com/NA/Mexico/Chiapas/Mazatan/7645531 > > Qué > Spanish: What, as in "what the fuck?" > > querida > Spanish: dear, darling. > > ********************************************* > Page 993 > > ** alternate communication systems - telepathic** > > It is like the telephone exchange . . . the single greater organism > remains intact, coherent, connected. > Actually not like the telephone exchange. On P. 708, Derrick Theign > worries that in case of war, telephone and telegraph will become > unreliable; this is his reason for creating the R.U.S.H. This > telepathic network, like an unfailing cell phone network, is far > more reliable. > > ** On page 993 Gunther talks about a network of Indians in > telepathic communication. > > Tenochtitlán > Tenochtitlán was the capital of the Aztec empire, built on an > island in Lake Texcoco in what is now the Federal District in > central Mexico. At its height, it was one of the largest cities in > the world, with over 200,000 inhabitants. The city was destroyed in > 1521 by Spanish conquistadors. Mexico City was erected on top of > the ruin. > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tenochtitlan > > Angel of the Fourth Glorieta on Reforma > > Glorieta is a monument. See the angel, pg. 989. > > "As a gateway the arch seemed to define two different parts of the > city..." > > *** http://www.flickr.com/photos/44011434 at N00/2404223525 > > ********************************************* > Page 994 > > He knew what it was but could not find its name in his memory > Presumably the unknown menace from which Aztlan's inhabitants fled. > But suggestive both of air attack and the menace of North American > industrialization. > > ***!!!! Air attack? What is this? Indeed! the US sends > aeroplanes to support Huerta? (NYTimes 5/24/1912) > > tezontle > The colonists and Indian artisans employed local tezontle, a light > and porous volcanic rock, to create elaborate facades on buildings. > > tepetate > A porous whitish-yellow rock used in building construction when cut > into blocks. As a construction material tepetate has played a major > role in the development of modern Mexico. > > indicative world > Very potent phrase. The world of everyday reality, indicating the > deepeer reality of the visions? The indicative mood in grammar is > the mood of simple declarative statements, plain facts: there was > Melpomene, here is a chair. A mood incommensurate with Frank's trance. > > the Huerta coup > Against Madero, who was shot, February 1913. > > Ciudadela > http://archaeology.asu.edu/teo/intro/ciudad.htm > > Félix Díaz - Huerta supporter until he was duped. > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Félix_Díaz > > Decena Trágica > Spanish: the tragic ten days (before the assassination of President > Modero) > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_decena_trágica > > Zócalo -A zócalo is a central town square or plaza. > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zocalo > > el palacio blanco > Spanish: the white palace > > Pino Suárez - Vice President of Mexico from 1911 to 1913 > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/José_María_Pino_Suárez > > ********************************************* > Page 995 > > It was the first time he was aware of getting paid for being > stupid. Could there be a future in this? Sounds like another > Pynchonian 'in-joke'. In "Vineland", Zoyd Wheeler is getting his > yearly cheques for precisely that, i.e. doing something stupid. > > ********************************************* > Page 996 > > ¡Epa! > Spanish: Whoa! Soccer (fútbol) announcers interject ¡Epa! when two > players have a very physical coming together. > > Since last September the mine workers' union had been out on strike > The Colorado "coal war" of September 1913 to April 1914; here is an > eye-opening account. > > Just a taste of what's coming a bit later in Ludlow: > > http://www.du.edu/anthro/ludlow/cfhist.html > > ********************************************* > Page 997 > > Pagosa Springs > South Central Colorado town in the heart of the San Juan Forest. > > 1914 with photos: http://gawiz.com/HistoryoftheRanches.htm > > ********************************************* > > Page 998 > > ...over Wolf Creek Pass, into the San Luis Valley...San Luis > Basin...through Fort Garland...up the Sangre de Cristos over North > La Veta Pass...the first rooftops of Walsenburg. > The route described would take them from the presumably UMW- > sympathetic mining country in the San Juans, north and east along > current US highway 160 (called the Navaho Trail), across the San > Luis Valley and Basin to North La Veta Pass, with Walsenburg and > the prairies and canyons of the coal country beyond to the east > (the only safe approach to the striking mines). > > > http://tinyurl.com/65g53v > > The geography of this journey is as carefully described as the > various characters' journeys through the Balkans (the description > of the view of the Spanish Peaks and Culebra Range are absolutely > accurate), and there must be a reason, something these regions have > in common. > > The San Luis Valley and immediately adjacent areas are the furthest > northeastern reaches of the Spanish Empire in North America, part > of the Province of Nueva Mexico del Norte of New Spain, later > Mexico (part of which became the state of New Mexico in 1912). The > area around Telluride would be the northern border of Pynchon's > vision of Aztlan (it is in fact the northern border of the Pueblo > settlements). These are, therefore, like the Balkans, borders > between newly industrializing empires and older, tribally- > organized, "pre-scientific" cultures (both with indigenous mystical/ > spiritual traditions, with which the characters interact). Here and > in nearby Mexico, mechanization and industrialization of resource > extraction are causing heartbreaking exploitation and violence, and > the indigenous shamanism and mysticism and their unmediated power > are being destroyed by advancing industrial civilization, exactly > as described by Dwight Prance on P.777. > > Niall Ferguson(The War of the World: Twentieth Century Conflict and > the Descent of the West, Penguin Press, 2006) points to three > demonstrated conditions for becoming a conflict flashpoint: (1) > Multi-ethnic population (2) location at the border of a failing > empire (3) economic volatility (See note to P.939). Both the > Balkans and the American Southwest/Mexico fulfilled those conditions. > > > > > > ********************************************* > ** Also see: > http://chumpsofchoice.blogspot.com/2007/10/what-i-tell-you-three- > times-is-true.html > From krafftjm at muohio.edu Mon Jul 7 10:59:09 2008 From: krafftjm at muohio.edu (Krafft, John M.) Date: Mon, 7 Jul 2008 11:59:09 -0400 Subject: FW: NPR.org - Celebrating The Fourth With Rebellion : NPR In-Reply-To: <20080707152434.77B9E5E419C@jupiter0.npr.org> References: <20080707152434.77B9E5E419C@jupiter0.npr.org> Message-ID: I kept waiting for this to show up on the list, but y'all must have been too busy celebrating to listen to NPR. John ________________________________________ Celebrating The Fourth With Rebellion : NPR http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=92074564&sc=emaf *Listen/Watch on NPR.org* Many stories at NPR.org have audio or video content. When you visit the link above, look for a "Listen" or "Watch" button. For technical support, please visit NPR's Audio/Video Help page: http://www.npr.org/help/media.html -- John M. Krafft / English Miami University–Hamilton / 1601 University Blvd. / Hamilton, OH 45011-3399 Tel: 513.785.3031 or 513.868.2330 Fax: 513.785.3145 E-mail: krafftjm at muohio.edu WWW: http://www.ham.muohio.edu/~krafftjm or http://PynchonNotes.org From mryc2903 at yahoo.fr Mon Jul 7 11:36:54 2008 From: mryc2903 at yahoo.fr (Michel Ryckx) Date: Mon, 07 Jul 2008 18:36:54 +0200 Subject: Sunday's radio program about Pynchon In-Reply-To: <614761.96867.qm@web27606.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> References: <614761.96867.qm@web27606.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <48724626.2050405@yahoo.fr> Hi, Am listening to it now -- can be found at http://rapidshare.com/files/126025520/Pynchon_Generator.mp3 and shortly at a Pynchon site. Only 45 MB. Sascha's great. Only in German. Michel. Krafft, John M. Dr. wrote: > Did anyone manage to capture it as a file, or can anyone point me to a (preferably savable) online archive of it? thanks. > > John ___________________________________________________________________________ Avez-vous essay� le nouveau Yahoo! Mail ? Plus rapide, plus efficace... simplement r�volutionnaire ! D�couvrez-le. Lien :http://fr.mail.yahoo.com From bekker2 at mac.com Mon Jul 7 21:43:10 2008 From: bekker2 at mac.com (Becky Alexander) Date: Mon, 07 Jul 2008 19:43:10 -0700 Subject: ATDTDA (36) Mother Jones Message-ID: This is section of Mother Jones' autobiography relevant to the Luddlow Massacre. http://womenshistory.about.com/library/etext/mj/ bl_mj21.htm From The Autobiography of Mother Jones Chapter XXI: In Rockefeller's Prisons In January, 1914, I returned to Colorado. When I got off the train at Trinidad, the militia met me and ordered me back on the train. Nevertheless, I got off. They marched me to the telegrapher's office, then they changed their minds, and took me to the hotel where they had their headquarters. I told them I wanted to get my breakfast. They escorted me to the dining room. "Who is paying for my breakfast?" said I. "The state," said they. "Then as the guest of the state of Colorado I'll order a good breakfast." And I did-all the way from bacon to pie. The train for Denver pulled in. The military put me aboard it. When we reached Walsenburg; a delegation of miners met the train, singing a miner's song. They sang at the top their lungs till the silent, old mountains see to prick up their ears. They swarmed into the train. "God bless you, Mother!" "God bless you, my boys!" "Mother, is your coat warm enough? It's; freezing cold in the hills!" "I'm all right, my lad." The chap had no overcoat -- a cheap cotton suit, and a bit of woolen rag around his neck. Outside in the station stood the militia. One of them was a fiend. He went about swinging his gun, hitting the miners, and trying to prod them into a fight, hurling vile oaths at them. But the boys kept cool and I could hear them singing above the 'shriek of the whistle as the train pulled out of the depot and wound away through the hills. From January on until the final brutal out-rage, --the burning of the tent colony in Ludlow -- my ears wearied with the stories of brutality and suffering. My eyes ached with the misery I witnessed. My brain sickened with the knowledge of man's inhumanity to man. It was, "Oh, Mother, my daughter has been assaulted by the soldiers- such a little girl!" "Oh, Mother, did you hear how the soldiers entered Mrs. Hall's house, how they terrified the little children, wrecked the home, and did worse-terrible things-and just because Mr. Hall, the undertaker, had buried two miners whom the militia had killed!" "And, Oh Mother, did you hear how they are arresting miners for vagrancy, for loafing, and making them work in company ditches without pay, making them haul coal and clear snow up to the mines for nothing!" "Mother, Mother, listen! A Polish fellow arrived as a strike breaker. He didn't know there was a strike. He was a big, strapping fellow. They gave him a star and a gun and told him to shoot strikers!" "Oh, Mother, they've brought in a shipment of guns and machine guns- what's to happen to us!" A frantic mother clutched me. "Mother Jones," she screamed, "Mother Jones, my little boy's all swollen up with the kicking and beating he got from a soldier because he said, 'Howdy, John D. feller!' 'Twas just a kid teasing, and now he's lying like dead !" "Mother, 'tis an outrage for an adjutant general of the state to shake his fist and holler in the face of a grey-haired widow for singing a union song in her own kitchen while she washes the dishes!" "It is all an outrage," said I. 'Tis an outrage indeed that Rockefller should own the coal that God put in the earth for all the people. 'Tis an outrage that gunmen and soldiers are here protecting mines against workmen who ask bit more than a crust, a bit more than bondage! 'Tis an ocean of outrage !" "Mother, did you hear of poor, old Colner? e was going to the postoffice and was arrested by the milita. They marched him down hill, making him carry a shovel and a pick his back. They told him he was to die and must dig his own grave. He stumbled and fell on the road. They kicked him and he staggered up. He begged to be allowed to go home kiss his wife and children goodbye. "We'll do the kissing," laughed the soldiers At the place they picked out for his grave, they measured him, and then they ordered to dig- two feet deeper, they told him. Old Colner began digging while the soldiers stood around laughing and cursing and playing craps for his tin watch. Then Colner fell fainting into the grave. The soldiers left him there till he recovered by himself. There he was alone and he staggered back to camp, Mother, and he isn't quite right in the head!" I sat through long nights with sobbing widows, watching the candles about the corpse of the husband burn down to their sockets. "Get out and fight," I told those women. "Fight like hell till you go to Heaven t" That was the only way I knew to comfort them. I nursed men back to sanity who were driven to despair. I solicited clothes for the ragged children, for the desperate mothers. I laid out the dead, the martyrs of the strike. I kept the men away from the saloons, whose licenses as well as those of the brothels, were held by the Rockefeller interests. The miners armed, armed as it is permitted every American citizen to do in defense of his home, his family; as he is permitted to do against invasion. The smoke of armed battle rose from the arroyos and ravines of the Rocky Mountains. No one listened. No one cared. The tickers in the offices of 26 Broadway sounded louder than the sobs of women and children. Men in the steam heated luxury of Broadway offices could not feel the stinging cold of Colorado hill-sides where families lived in tents. Then came Ludlow and the nation heard. Little children roasted alive make a front page story. Dying by inches of starvation and exposure does not. On the 19th of April, 1914, machine guns, used on the strikers in the Paint Creek strike, were placed in position above the tent colony of Ludlow. Major Pat Hamrock and Lieutenant K. E. Linderfelt were in charge of the militia, the majority of whom were, company gun-men sworn in as soldiers. Early in the morning soldiers approached the colony with a demand from headquarters that Louis Tikas, leader of the Greeks, surrender two Italians. Tikas demanded a warrant for their arrest. They had none. Tikas refused to surrender them. The soldiers returned to quarters. A signal bomb was fired. Then another. Immediately the machine guns began spraying the flimsy tent colony, the only home the wretched families of the miners had, riddling it with bullets. Like iron rain, bullets' upon men, women and children. The women and children fled to the hills. Others tarried. The men defended their home with their guns. All day long the firing continued. Men fell dead, their faces to the ground. Women dropped. The little Snyder boy was shot through the head, trying to save his kitten. A child carrying water to his dying mother was killed. By five o'clock in the afternoon, the miners had no more food, nor water, nor ammunition. They had to retreat with their wives and little ones into the hills. Louis Tikas was riddled with shots while he tried to lead women and children to safety. They perished with him. Night came. A raw wind blew down the canyons where men, women and children shivered and wept. Then a blaze lighted the sky. The soldiers, drunk with blood and with the liquor they had looted from the saloon, set fire to the tents of Ludlow with oil-soaked torches. The tents, all the poor furnishings, the clothes and bedding of the miners' families burned. Coils of barbed wire were stuffed into the well, the miners' only water supply. After it was over, the wretched people crept back to bury their dead. In a dugout under a burned tent, the charred bodies of eleven little children and two women were found-unrecognizable. Everything lay in ruins. The wires of bed springs writhed on the ground as if they, too, had tried to flee the horror. Oil and fire and guns had robbed men and women and children of their homes and slaughtered tiny babies and defenseless women. Done by order of Lieutenant Linderfelt, a savage, brutal executor of the will of the Colorado Fuel and Iron Company. The strikers issued a general call to arms: Every able bodied man must shoulder a gun to protect himself and his family from assassins, from arson and plunder. From jungle days to our own so- named civilization, this is a man's inherent right. To a man they armed, through-out the whole strike district. Ludlow went on burning in their hearts. Everybody got busy. A delegation from Ludlow went to see President Wilson. Among them was Mrs. Petrucci whose three tiny babies were crisped to death in the black hole of Ludlow. She had something to say to her President. Immediately he sent the United States cavalry to quell the gunmen. He studied the situation, and drew up proposals for a three-year truce, binding miner and operator. The operators scornfully refused. A mass meeting was called in Denver. Lindsay spoke. He demanded that the operators be made to respect the laws of Colorado. That something be done immediately. The Denver Real Estate Exchange appointed a committee to spit on Judge Lindsey for his espousal of the cause of the miners. Rockefeller got busy. Writers were hired to write pamphlets which were sent broadcast to every editor in the country, bulletins. In these leaflets, it was shown how perfectly happy was the life of the miner until the agitators came; how joyous he was with the company's saloon,. the company's pigstys for homes, the cornpany's teachers and preachers and coroners. How the miners hated the state law of an eight-hour working day, begging to be allowed to work ten, twelve. How they hated the state law that they should have their own check weigh-man to see that they were not cheated at the tipple. And all the while the mothers of the children who died in Ludlow were mourning their dead. *** Bekah From markekohut at yahoo.com Mon Jul 7 22:32:32 2008 From: markekohut at yahoo.com (Mark Kohut) Date: Mon, 7 Jul 2008 20:32:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Fw: Wall-E linked to a "Pynchon rumination" Message-ID: <513778.70075.qm@web38403.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- On Mon, 7/7/08, Mark Kohut wrote: > From: Mark Kohut > Subject: Wall-E linked to a "Pynchon rumination" > To: "Peter Cleland" , "Brad Andrews" , "nancy" , "Batte, Jim" , "Mark Kohut" > Date: Monday, July 7, 2008, 11:21 PM > http://blog.beliefnet.com/crunchycon/2008/07/walle-and-art-history.html > > -- > Mark Kohut (& Associates) > 63 Western Ave. > Jersey City, NJ 07307 > 646-519-1956 > 201-795-9388 From bekker2 at mac.com Tue Jul 8 01:33:05 2008 From: bekker2 at mac.com (Bekah) Date: Mon, 07 Jul 2008 23:33:05 -0700 Subject: AtD - (36) pgs 1007 - 1012 Message-ID: Starting at page 1007 - This whole Ludlow section is written exactly like the history as it's documented in several places on the net - a few mentioned below. All that deliberate misery-making can get quite depressing. There is no need here for anything other than a pretty straightforward account (and inserting some characters) - the events speak for themselves. Winter of 1913-1914 Stray goes from Trinidad to Ludlow (about 12 miles southeast) where the coal miners had been striking and living in a tent colony since September. * The tent colony was for those union members who were on strike and therefore had been evicted from their company owned homes. These * Guns lined up: (!) http://courses.ed.asu.edu/margolis/life/homepage_files/image021a.gif Ludlow Massacre: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ludlow_Massacre http://www.cobar.org/index.cfm/ID/581/dpwfp/Historical-Foreward-and- Bibliography/ Excellent Photo Galleries -( scroll right) http://www.du.edu/anthro/ludlow/cfphoto.html Today Ludlow is a ghost town - http://www.cultimedia.ch/ghosttowns/htme/ludlowco.htm with a monument: http://www.flickr.com/photos/surlymonkey/935096702/ * Photo of the "Death Car" http://courses.ed.asu.edu/margolis/life/homepage_files/image010a.gif "They used an improvised armored car, mounted with a M1895 Colt- Browning machine gun that the union called the "Death Special," to patrol the camp's perimeters. The steel-covered car was built in the CF&I plant in Pueblo from the chassis of a large touring sedan. Because of frequent sniping on the tent colonies, miners dug protective pits beneath the tents where they and their families could seek shelter." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ludlow_Massacre#The_mine_strike ********************* page 108 Jesse shows up via the Colorado and Southern railway http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:C%26S_RR_map.jpg * Light as torture / darkness as compassion "The Colorodo militia were in fact giving light a bad name. Military wisdom had it that putting searchlights on the enemy allowed you to see them, while blinding them to you, giving you an inestimable edge both tactical and psychological. In the tents, darkness in that awful winter was sought like warmth or quiet. It seemed like a form of compassion. " Jesse goes out - comes back smug and the lights are out. ********************* page 109 It was a very bad winter - tents collapse from the snow, etc. http://www.sangres.com/history/coalfieldwar01.htm http://courses.ed.asu.edu/margolis/life/homepage_files/exp01.htm (stick around there - the images change) * Strike breakers coming in via cattle cars from Pennsylvania and trains escorted from the Mexican border. There were 24 languages spoken in the tent city. http://www.cobar.org/index.cfm/ID/581/dpwfp/Historical-Foreward-and- Bibliography/ * Moss Gatlin (Johann Most?) preaches forbearance and violence at the same time http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johann_Most * The mood grows uglier, women are raped, kids are beaten, in Trinidad the military attacked women marching in support of the strike, no one killed (to this point) see "The Autobiography of Mother Jones" - Part 3: http://www.angelfire.com/nj3/RonMBaseman/mojones3.htm * The 2 colt machine guns on armored "Death Car" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M1895_Colt-Browning_machine_gun Baldwin-Felts "detective" agency. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baldwin-Felts "Baldwin-Felts had a reputation for aggressive strike breaking. Agents shone searchlights on the tent villages at night and randomly fired into the tents, occasionally killing and maiming people. They used an improvised armored car, mounted with a M1895 Colt-Browning machine gun that the union called the "Death Special," to patrol the camp's perimeters. The steel-covered car was built in the CF&I plant in Pueblo from the chassis of a large touring sedan. Because of frequent sniping on the tent colonies, miners dug protective pits beneath the tents where they and their families could seek shelter. " A different pov: http://www.baldwinfeltsdetectives.com/ (right - just fyi) ******* page 1010 Guardsmen are bad news - blonde - shades of Nazi Jesse finds a level of evil never expected in adults until now. Not one but a whole fleet of Death Specials and the drivers fear they will be the victims. Jessie denies association with Union group **** page 1011 but Jessie also steals two 30 caliber machine gun rounds to prevent them being shot Meanwhile, (and at this point it's April 19, 1914 or so - the day prior to the massacre) Frank Traverse is in Aguilar, between Walsenberg and Trinidad at the 29 Luglio Saloon named for Anarchist Bresci assassinated King Umberto of Italy http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaetano_Bresci He's checking out a gun - (imaginary? no) Benet Mercier http://tinyurl.com/63bttu (follow links): http://forums.gunboards.com/archive/index.php? t-20386.html Empire Mine - dangerous there was an explosion there killing 13 people in 1919 NY Times 3 days after Ludlow Massacre: http://tinyurl.com/4qvvb5 Frank sees a woman who looks like Michelangelo's Pieta to others: (in case you forgot) http://www.saintpetersbasilica.org/Altars/Pieta/Pieta-ah06.jpg Stray - recognizes Frank and tells him the night's young It's Stray - dressed as a "Sister of Charity" http://jama.ama-assn.org/content/vol296/issue8/images/medium/ jbk60126fa.jpg *************** Page 1012 Frank and Stray get reacquainted, there in the bar and find out if each other is free, relationship wise - Ewball / Ren Frank is not just Reef without the loco streak - he's different - not so readable now here in coalfields which were about to explode Frank: "They're fixing to do away with all them tents." "Creeping along, her nun's shadow in the search light beams..." April 19 - Jesse has gone with Balkan kids - "It's their Easter or somethin." The Balkan kids" would likely be Eastern Orthodox religion and their Easter falls at some point between early April to early May, following the cycle of the moon. After several centuries of disagreement, all churches accepted the computation of the Alexandrian Church (now the Coptic Church) that Easter is the first Sunday after the first fourteenth day of the moon (the Paschal Full Moon) that is on or after the ecclesiastical vernal equinox. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Easter *********************** From bekker2 at mac.com Tue Jul 8 01:52:46 2008 From: bekker2 at mac.com (Bekah) Date: Mon, 07 Jul 2008 23:52:46 -0700 Subject: AtD - (36) pgs 1007 - 1012 Message-ID: I apologize if this turns up twice - it's not getting through for some reason - ? Starting at page 1007 - This whole Ludlow section is written exactly like the history as it's documented in several places on the net - a few mentioned below. All that deliberate misery-making can get quite depressing. There is no need here for anything other than a pretty straightforward account (and inserting some characters) - the events speak for themselves. Winter of 1913-1914 Stray goes from Trinidad to Ludlow (about 12 miles southeast) where the coal miners had been striking and living in a tent colony since September. * The tent colony was for those union members who were on strike and therefore had been evicted from their company owned homes. These * Guns lined up: (!) http://courses.ed.asu.edu/margolis/life/homepage_files/image021a.gif Ludlow Massacre: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ludlow_Massacre http://www.cobar.org/index.cfm/ID/581/dpwfp/Historical-Foreward-and- Bibliography/ Excellent Photo Galleries -( scroll right) http://www.du.edu/anthro/ludlow/cfphoto.html Today Ludlow is a ghost town - http://www.cultimedia.ch/ghosttowns/htme/ludlowco.htm with a monument: http://www.flickr.com/photos/surlymonkey/935096702/ * Photo of the "Death Car" http://courses.ed.asu.edu/margolis/life/homepage_files/image010a.gif "They used an improvised armored car, mounted with a M1895 Colt- Browning machine gun that the union called the "Death Special," to patrol the camp's perimeters. The steel-covered car was built in the CF&I plant in Pueblo from the chassis of a large touring sedan. Because of frequent sniping on the tent colonies, miners dug protective pits beneath the tents where they and their families could seek shelter." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ludlow_Massacre#The_mine_strike ********************* page 108 Jesse shows up via the Colorado and Southern railway http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:C%26S_RR_map.jpg * Light as torture / darkness as compassion "The Colorodo militia were in fact giving light a bad name. Military wisdom had it that putting searchlights on the enemy allowed you to see them, while blinding them to you, giving you an inestimable edge both tactical and psychological. In the tents, darkness in that awful winter was sought like warmth or quiet. It seemed like a form of compassion. " Jesse goes out - comes back smug and the lights are out. ********************* page 109 It was a very bad winter - tents collapse from the snow, etc. http://www.sangres.com/history/coalfieldwar01.htm http://courses.ed.asu.edu/margolis/life/homepage_files/exp01.htm (stick around there - the images change) * Strike breakers coming in via cattle cars from Pennsylvania and trains escorted from the Mexican border. There were 24 languages spoken in the tent city. http://www.cobar.org/index.cfm/ID/581/dpwfp/Historical-Foreward-and- Bibliography/ * Moss Gatlin (Johann Most?) preaches forbearance and violence at the same time http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johann_Most * The mood grows uglier, women are raped, kids are beaten, in Trinidad the military attacked women marching in support of the strike, no one killed (to this point) see "The Autobiography of Mother Jones" - Part 3: http://www.angelfire.com/nj3/RonMBaseman/mojones3.htm * The 2 colt machine guns on armored "Death Car" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M1895_Colt-Browning_machine_gun Baldwin-Felts "detective" agency. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baldwin-Felts "Baldwin-Felts had a reputation for aggressive strike breaking. Agents shone searchlights on the tent villages at night and randomly fired into the tents, occasionally killing and maiming people. They used an improvised armored car, mounted with a M1895 Colt-Browning machine gun that the union called the "Death Special," to patrol the camp's perimeters. The steel-covered car was built in the CF&I plant in Pueblo from the chassis of a large touring sedan. Because of frequent sniping on the tent colonies, miners dug protective pits beneath the tents where they and their families could seek shelter. " A different pov: http://www.baldwinfeltsdetectives.com/ (right - just fyi) ******* page 1010 Guardsmen are bad news - blonde - shades of Nazi Jesse finds a level of evil never expected in adults until now. Not one but a whole fleet of Death Specials and the drivers fear they will be the victims. Jessie denies association with Union group **** page 1011 but Jessie also steals two 30 caliber machine gun rounds to prevent them being shot Meanwhile, (and at this point it's April 19, 1914 or so - the day prior to the massacre) Frank Traverse is in Aguilar, between Walsenberg and Trinidad at the 29 Luglio Saloon named for Anarchist Bresci assassinated King Umberto of Italy http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaetano_Bresci He's checking out a gun - (imaginary? no) Benet Mercier http://tinyurl.com/63bttu (follow links): http://forums.gunboards.com/archive/index.php? t-20386.html Empire Mine - dangerous there was an explosion there killing 13 people in 1919 NY Times 3 days after Ludlow Massacre: http://tinyurl.com/4qvvb5 Frank sees a woman who looks like Michelangelo's Pieta to others: (in case you forgot) http://www.saintpetersbasilica.org/Altars/Pieta/Pieta-ah06.jpg Stray - recognizes Frank and tells him the night's young It's Stray - dressed as a "Sister of Charity" http://jama.ama-assn.org/content/vol296/issue8/images/medium/ jbk60126fa.jpg *************** Page 1012 Frank and Stray get reacquainted, there in the bar and find out if each other is free, relationship wise - Ewball / Ren Frank is not just Reef without the loco streak - he's different - not so readable now here in coalfields which were about to explode Frank: "They're fixing to do away with all them tents." "Creeping along, her nun's shadow in the search light beams..." April 19 - Jesse has gone with Balkan kids - "It's their Easter or somethin." The Balkan kids" would likely be Eastern Orthodox religion and their Easter falls at some point between early April to early May, following the cycle of the moon. After several centuries of disagreement, all churches accepted the computation of the Alexandrian Church (now the Coptic Church) that Easter is the first S From ottosell at googlemail.com Tue Jul 8 05:51:11 2008 From: ottosell at googlemail.com (Otto) Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2008 12:51:11 +0200 Subject: NP Augustinus: "Bekenntnisse" Message-ID: Der Erfinder der Autobiografie Augustinus: "Bekenntnisse", Hrsg. Jörg Ulrich, Verlag der Weltreligionen 2007, 619 Seiten Der bedeutende Kirchenlehrer und Philosoph Augustinus von Hippo begründete an der Zeitenwende zwischen Antike und Mittelalter das literarische Genre der Autobiografie. In der Ich-Form zu sprechen, hatte er dem Juden Jesus von Nazareth abgeschaut. Seine "Bekenntnisse" zählen zu den klassischen Autobiografien der Weltliteratur. Sie entstanden um 400, als er Mitte 40 und Bischof von Hippo war. (...) Augustinus: Bekenntnisse hrsg. von Jörg Ulrich. Verlag der Weltreligionen 2007 619 Seiten, 30,00 € http://www.dradio.de/dkultur/sendungen/kritik/809730/ as mp3: http://ondemand-mp3.dradio.de/file/dradio/2008/07/02/drk_20080702_0933_7b60b06e.mp3 From against.the.dave at gmail.com Tue Jul 8 08:37:12 2008 From: against.the.dave at gmail.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2008 08:37:12 -0500 Subject: METROPOLIS Rebuilt In-Reply-To: <2A429C8B-92F3-4C8F-85C3-B8DA771021B6@yahoo.de> References: <2A429C8B-92F3-4C8F-85C3-B8DA771021B6@yahoo.de> Message-ID: On 7/8/08, Werner Presber wrote: > GreenCine Daily "Rediscovered" Metropolis > > http://daily.greencine.com/archives/006330.html >From a non-List friend: "Good lord! It's even longer?!" Now if only --> http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0018097/ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_After_Midnight_(film) From scuffling at gmail.com Tue Jul 8 09:24:08 2008 From: scuffling at gmail.com (Henry) Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2008 10:24:08 -0400 Subject: ATDTDA (36) Mother Jones In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <007d01c8e106$49ce2840$dd6a78c0$@com> I haven't read Mother Jones in years! Thanks for this! And still, to this day, the media-outlets are the same as the owners! Knowledge from reading is important, but please take what you learn and use it to help the people that have been frightened by McFox "News." HENRY MU Information, Media, and Technology Consultant http://my.barackobama.com/page/community/blog/henrymu From against.the.dave at gmail.com Tue Jul 8 09:55:17 2008 From: against.the.dave at gmail.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2008 09:55:17 -0500 Subject: Working At Cross Purposes? Message-ID: Thomas Pynchon's Crying of Lot 49 is an example of a novel that doesn't challenge the reader to interpret it, but does challenge the reader to complete it without succumbing to paranoid schizophrenic thought patterns. Pynchon's uses the text to trip up the reader's rhythm and confound perception. He does this specifically by placing complex sentence structures into longer passages filled with simply structured sentences. This builds a cadence that pulls the reader along, only to trick the mind into feeling it has lost its place when a sentence doesn't follow the same pattern. The eye automatically scans to the top of the paragraph and you wind up rereading portions of the text. This, perhaps more than anything else I've read, strikes me as the deliberate incorporation of play into a literary form.... http://blog.pjsattic.com/corvus/2008/07/working-at-cross-purposes/ From kelber at mindspring.com Tue Jul 8 10:08:32 2008 From: kelber at mindspring.com (kelber at mindspring.com) Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2008 11:08:32 -0400 (EDT) Subject: AtD - (36) pgs 1007 - 1012 Message-ID: <12800362.1215529713135.JavaMail.root@mswamui-cedar.atl.sa.earthlink.net> I attempted to send a link to the Woody Guthrie song, The Ludlow Massacre, but apparently the file was too large to make it through. It's worth looking it up on i-tunes. Laura -----Original Message----- >From: Bekah >Sent: Jul 8, 2008 2:33 AM >To: pynchon -l >Subject: AtD - (36) pgs 1007 - 1012 > >Starting at page 1007 - >This whole Ludlow section is written exactly like the history as it's >documented in several places on the net - a few mentioned below. All >that deliberate misery-making can get quite depressing. There is no >need here for anything other than a pretty straightforward account >(and inserting some characters) - the events speak for themselves. > > >Winter of 1913-1914 > Stray goes from Trinidad to Ludlow (about 12 miles southeast) where >the coal miners had been striking and living in a tent colony since >September. > >* > The tent colony was for those union members who were on strike and >therefore had been evicted from their company owned homes. These > >* >Guns lined up: (!) >http://courses.ed.asu.edu/margolis/life/homepage_files/image021a.gif > > >Ludlow Massacre: >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ludlow_Massacre >http://www.cobar.org/index.cfm/ID/581/dpwfp/Historical-Foreward-and- >Bibliography/ > >Excellent Photo Galleries -( scroll right) >http://www.du.edu/anthro/ludlow/cfphoto.html > > >Today Ludlow is a ghost town - >http://www.cultimedia.ch/ghosttowns/htme/ludlowco.htm >with a monument: >http://www.flickr.com/photos/surlymonkey/935096702/ > >* > >Photo of the "Death Car" >http://courses.ed.asu.edu/margolis/life/homepage_files/image010a.gif > >"They used an improvised armored car, mounted with a M1895 Colt- >Browning machine gun that the union called the "Death Special," to >patrol the camp's perimeters. The steel-covered car was built in the >CF&I plant in Pueblo from the chassis of a large touring sedan. >Because of frequent sniping on the tent colonies, miners dug >protective pits beneath the tents where they and their families could >seek shelter." > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ludlow_Massacre#The_mine_strike > >********************* > >page 108 >Jesse shows up via the Colorado and Southern railway >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:C%26S_RR_map.jpg >* > >Light as torture / darkness as compassion >"The Colorodo militia were in fact giving light a bad name. Military >wisdom had it that putting searchlights on the enemy allowed you to >see them, while blinding them to you, giving you an inestimable edge >both tactical and psychological. In the tents, darkness in that awful >winter was sought like warmth or quiet. It seemed like a form of >compassion. " > >Jesse goes out - comes back smug and the lights are out. > > >********************* >page 109 >It was a very bad winter - tents collapse from the snow, etc. >http://www.sangres.com/history/coalfieldwar01.htm >http://courses.ed.asu.edu/margolis/life/homepage_files/exp01.htm >(stick around there - the images change) > >* >Strike breakers coming in via cattle cars from Pennsylvania and >trains escorted from the Mexican border. >There were 24 languages spoken in the tent city. >http://www.cobar.org/index.cfm/ID/581/dpwfp/Historical-Foreward-and- >Bibliography/ >* >Moss Gatlin (Johann Most?) preaches forbearance and violence at the >same time >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johann_Most >* >The mood grows uglier, women are raped, kids are beaten, in Trinidad >the military attacked women marching in support of the strike, no one >killed (to this point) >see "The Autobiography of Mother Jones" - Part 3: >http://www.angelfire.com/nj3/RonMBaseman/mojones3.htm >* > >The 2 colt machine guns on armored "Death Car" >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M1895_Colt-Browning_machine_gun > > >Baldwin-Felts "detective" agency. >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baldwin-Felts > >"Baldwin-Felts had a reputation for aggressive strike breaking. >Agents shone searchlights on the tent villages at night and randomly >fired into the tents, occasionally killing and maiming people. They >used an improvised armored car, mounted with a M1895 Colt-Browning >machine gun that the union called the "Death Special," to patrol the >camp's perimeters. The steel-covered car was built in the CF&I plant >in Pueblo from the chassis of a large touring sedan. Because of >frequent sniping on the tent colonies, miners dug protective pits >beneath the tents where they and their families could seek shelter. " > >A different pov: http://www.baldwinfeltsdetectives.com/ (right - >just fyi) > >******* > >page 1010 >Guardsmen are bad news - blonde - shades of Nazi > >Jesse finds a level of evil never expected in adults until now. > >Not one but a whole fleet of Death Specials and the drivers fear >they will be the victims. > >Jessie denies association with Union group > >**** > >page 1011 >but Jessie also steals two 30 caliber machine gun rounds to prevent >them being shot > >Meanwhile, (and at this point it's April 19, 1914 or so - the day >prior to the massacre) >Frank Traverse is in Aguilar, between Walsenberg and Trinidad >at the 29 Luglio Saloon named for Anarchist Bresci assassinated King >Umberto of Italy >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaetano_Bresci > >He's checking out a gun - (imaginary? no) >Benet Mercier >http://tinyurl.com/63bttu >(follow links): http://forums.gunboards.com/archive/index.php? >t-20386.html > > >Empire Mine - dangerous >there was an explosion there killing 13 people in 1919 >NY Times 3 days after Ludlow Massacre: >http://tinyurl.com/4qvvb5 > > >Frank sees a woman who looks like Michelangelo's Pieta to others: >(in case you forgot) >http://www.saintpetersbasilica.org/Altars/Pieta/Pieta-ah06.jpg > >Stray - recognizes Frank and tells him the night's young >It's Stray - dressed as a "Sister of Charity" >http://jama.ama-assn.org/content/vol296/issue8/images/medium/ >jbk60126fa.jpg > >*************** > >Page 1012 > >Frank and Stray get reacquainted, there in the bar and find out if >each other is free, relationship wise - Ewball / Ren >Frank is not just Reef without the loco streak - he's different - not >so readable now here in coalfields which were about to explode > >Frank: "They're fixing to do away with all them tents." > >"Creeping along, her nun's shadow in the search light beams..." > > >April 19 - Jesse has gone with Balkan kids - "It's their Easter or >somethin." > The Balkan kids" would likely be Eastern Orthodox religion and >their Easter falls at some point between early April to early May, >following the cycle of the moon. After several centuries of >disagreement, all churches accepted the computation of the >Alexandrian Church (now the Coptic Church) that Easter is the first >Sunday after the first fourteenth day of the moon (the Paschal Full >Moon) that is on or after the ecclesiastical vernal equinox. > >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Easter > >*********************** > From against.the.dave at gmail.com Tue Jul 8 10:10:35 2008 From: against.the.dave at gmail.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2008 10:10:35 -0500 Subject: Video: World's First Computer Is Finally Built Message-ID: Video: World's First Computer Is Finally Built Charles Babbage's 1822 design for a mechanical "difference engine" was never actually constructed ... until now. http://www.livescience.com/php/video/player.php?aid=19205 From markekohut at yahoo.com Tue Jul 8 10:11:23 2008 From: markekohut at yahoo.com (Mark Kohut) Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2008 08:11:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Working At Cross Purposes? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <622438.44699.qm@web38407.mail.mud.yahoo.com> 'deliberative incorporation of play into the text" ??? I might have thought the comic scenes were more like "play"? --- On Tue, 7/8/08, Dave Monroe wrote: > From: Dave Monroe > Subject: Working At Cross Purposes? > To: "pynchon -l" > Date: Tuesday, July 8, 2008, 10:55 AM > Thomas Pynchon's Crying of Lot 49 is an example of a > novel that > doesn't challenge the reader to interpret it, but does > challenge the > reader to complete it without succumbing to paranoid > schizophrenic > thought patterns. Pynchon's uses the text to trip up > the reader's > rhythm and confound perception. He does this specifically > by placing > complex sentence structures into longer passages filled > with simply > structured sentences. This builds a cadence that pulls the > reader > along, only to trick the mind into feeling it has lost its > place when > a sentence doesn't follow the same pattern. The eye > automatically > scans to the top of the paragraph and you wind up rereading > portions > of the text. This, perhaps more than anything else I've > read, strikes > me as the deliberate incorporation of play into a literary > form.... > > http://blog.pjsattic.com/corvus/2008/07/working-at-cross-purposes/ From against.the.dave at gmail.com Tue Jul 8 10:39:58 2008 From: against.the.dave at gmail.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2008 10:39:58 -0500 Subject: Working At Cross Purposes? In-Reply-To: <622438.44699.qm@web38407.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <622438.44699.qm@web38407.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On 7/8/08, Mark Kohut wrote: > 'deliberative incorporation of play into the text" ??? > > I might have thought the comic scenes were more like "play"? http://www.hup.harvard.edu/catalog/ECOOPE.html http://www.hydra.umn.edu/derrida/sign-play.html From igrlivingston at gmail.com Tue Jul 8 11:48:40 2008 From: igrlivingston at gmail.com (Ian Livingston) Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2008 09:48:40 -0700 Subject: AtD - (36) pgs 1007 - 1012 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <95cde1ee0807080948y153772ale02527da309a3f0d@mail.gmail.com> There is still a difference between Orthodox and Catholic as regards the dates of both Christmas and of Easter. My brother is Orthodox and we never really know when to send Christmas gifts to the kids and then he starts lent about the time everyone else is getting ready for the Easter feast. On Mon, Jul 7, 2008 at 11:33 PM, Bekah wrote: > Starting at page 1007 - > This whole Ludlow section is written exactly like the history as it's > documented in several places on the net - a few mentioned below. All that > deliberate misery-making can get quite depressing. There is no need here > for anything other than a pretty straightforward account (and inserting some > characters) - the events speak for themselves. > > > Winter of 1913-1914 > Stray goes from Trinidad to Ludlow (about 12 miles southeast) where the > coal miners had been striking and living in a tent colony since September. > > * > The tent colony was for those union members who were on strike and > therefore had been evicted from their company owned homes. These > > * > Guns lined up: (!) > http://courses.ed.asu.edu/margolis/life/homepage_files/image021a.gif > > > Ludlow Massacre: > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ludlow_Massacre > http://www.cobar.org/index.cfm/ID/581/dpwfp/Historical-Foreward-and- > Bibliography/ > > Excellent Photo Galleries -( scroll right) > http://www.du.edu/anthro/ludlow/cfphoto.html > > > Today Ludlow is a ghost town - > http://www.cultimedia.ch/ghosttowns/htme/ludlowco.htm > with a monument: > http://www.flickr.com/photos/surlymonkey/935096702/ > > * > > Photo of the "Death Car" > http://courses.ed.asu.edu/margolis/life/homepage_files/image010a.gif > > "They used an improvised armored car, mounted with a M1895 Colt-Browning > machine gun that the union called the "Death Special," to patrol the camp's > perimeters. The steel-covered car was built in the CF&I plant in Pueblo from > the chassis of a large touring sedan. Because of frequent sniping on the > tent colonies, miners dug protective pits beneath the tents where they and > their families could seek shelter." > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ludlow_Massacre#The_mine_strike > > ********************* > > page 108 > Jesse shows up via the Colorado and Southern railway > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:C%26S_RR_map.jpg > * > > Light as torture / darkness as compassion > "The Colorodo militia were in fact giving light a bad name. Military > wisdom had it that putting searchlights on the enemy allowed you to see > them, while blinding them to you, giving you an inestimable edge both > tactical and psychological. In the tents, darkness in that awful winter was > sought like warmth or quiet. It seemed like a form of compassion. " > > Jesse goes out - comes back smug and the lights are out. > > > ********************* > page 109 > It was a very bad winter - tents collapse from the snow, etc. > http://www.sangres.com/history/coalfieldwar01.htm > http://courses.ed.asu.edu/margolis/life/homepage_files/exp01.htm > (stick around there - the images change) > > * > Strike breakers coming in via cattle cars from Pennsylvania and trains > escorted from the Mexican border. > There were 24 languages spoken in the tent city. > http://www.cobar.org/index.cfm/ID/581/dpwfp/Historical-Foreward-and- > Bibliography/ > * > Moss Gatlin (Johann Most?) preaches forbearance and violence at the same > time > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johann_Most > * > The mood grows uglier, women are raped, kids are beaten, in Trinidad the > military attacked women marching in support of the strike, no one killed (to > this point) > see "The Autobiography of Mother Jones" - Part 3: > http://www.angelfire.com/nj3/RonMBaseman/mojones3.htm > * > > The 2 colt machine guns on armored "Death Car" > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M1895_Colt-Browning_machine_gun > > > Baldwin-Felts "detective" agency. > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baldwin-Felts > > "Baldwin-Felts had a reputation for aggressive strike breaking. Agents > shone searchlights on the tent villages at night and randomly fired into the > tents, occasionally killing and maiming people. They used an improvised > armored car, mounted with a M1895 Colt-Browning machine gun that the union > called the "Death Special," to patrol the camp's perimeters. The > steel-covered car was built in the CF&I plant in Pueblo from the chassis of > a large touring sedan. Because of frequent sniping on the tent colonies, > miners dug protective pits beneath the tents where they and their families > could seek shelter. " > > A different pov: http://www.baldwinfeltsdetectives.com/ (right - just > fyi) > > ******* > > page 1010 > Guardsmen are bad news - blonde - shades of Nazi > > Jesse finds a level of evil never expected in adults until now. > > Not one but a whole fleet of Death Specials and the drivers fear they will > be the victims. > > Jessie denies association with Union group > > **** > > page 1011 > but Jessie also steals two 30 caliber machine gun rounds to prevent them > being shot > > Meanwhile, (and at this point it's April 19, 1914 or so - the day prior > to the massacre) > Frank Traverse is in Aguilar, between Walsenberg and Trinidad > at the 29 Luglio Saloon named for Anarchist Bresci assassinated King > Umberto of Italy > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaetano_Bresci > > He's checking out a gun - (imaginary? no) > Benet Mercier > http://tinyurl.com/63bttu > (follow links): http://forums.gunboards.com/archive/index.php > ?t-20386.html > > > Empire Mine - dangerous > there was an explosion there killing 13 people in 1919 > NY Times 3 days after Ludlow Massacre: > http://tinyurl.com/4qvvb5 > > > Frank sees a woman who looks like Michelangelo's Pieta to others: (in case > you forgot) > http://www.saintpetersbasilica.org/Altars/Pieta/Pieta-ah06.jpg > > Stray - recognizes Frank and tells him the night's young > It's Stray - dressed as a "Sister of Charity" > http://jama.ama-assn.org/content/vol296/issue8/images/medium/ > jbk60126fa.jpg > > *************** > > Page 1012 > > Frank and Stray get reacquainted, there in the bar and find out if each > other is free, relationship wise - Ewball / Ren > Frank is not just Reef without the loco streak - he's different - not so > readable now here in coalfields which were about to explode > > Frank: "They're fixing to do away with all them tents." > > "Creeping along, her nun's shadow in the search light beams..." > > > April 19 - Jesse has gone with Balkan kids - "It's their Easter or > somethin." > The Balkan kids" would likely be Eastern Orthodox religion and their > Easter falls at some point between early April to early May, following the > cycle of the moon. After several centuries of disagreement, all churches > accepted the computation of the Alexandrian Church (now the Coptic Church) > that Easter is the first Sunday after the first fourteenth day of the moon > (the Paschal Full Moon) that is on or after the ecclesiastical vernal > equinox. > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Easter > > *********************** > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From joeallonby at gmail.com Tue Jul 8 11:55:10 2008 From: joeallonby at gmail.com (Joe Allonby) Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2008 12:55:10 -0400 Subject: ATDTDA (36) Mother Jones In-Reply-To: <007d01c8e106$49ce2840$dd6a78c0$@com> References: <007d01c8e106$49ce2840$dd6a78c0$@com> Message-ID: Related anecdote: One night I was involved in a "sesiun" with a group of musicians from Belfast. Mostly new arrivals, mostly illegal, mostly of rebel leanings. When it came to the turn of one man he stood up and sang "The Ludlow Miner Massacre" with great force and conviction. Apparently it was considered an anthem for Catholics in Belfast. On Tue, Jul 8, 2008 at 10:24 AM, Henry wrote: > I haven't read Mother Jones in years! Thanks for this! And still, to this > day, the media-outlets are the same as the owners! > > Knowledge from reading is important, but please take what you learn and use > it to help the people that have been frightened by McFox "News." > > > HENRY MU > Information, Media, and Technology Consultant > > http://my.barackobama.com/page/community/blog/henrymu > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From against.the.dave at gmail.com Tue Jul 8 12:30:49 2008 From: against.the.dave at gmail.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2008 12:30:49 -0500 Subject: Dying to get cheaper as Malta ends hearse cartel Message-ID: Dying to get cheaper as Malta ends hearse cartel Tue Jul 8, 2008 10:45am EDT VALLETTA (Reuters) - The cost of living is rising in Malta, but the cost of dying may be about to drop. The Maltese Transport Ministry announced on Monday that the government had decided to liberalize the granting of licenses for hearses. No licenses have been issued for 36 years, leaving only 11 owners of hearses and, in the ministry's words, "creating the conditions for a cartel." "The people have been denied freedom of choice and the benefits of competition" the ministry said. http://www.reuters.com/article/oddlyEnoughNews/idUSL0719616320080708 From bekker2 at mac.com Tue Jul 8 13:09:25 2008 From: bekker2 at mac.com (Bekah) Date: Tue, 08 Jul 2008 11:09:25 -0700 Subject: AtD - (36) pgs 1007 - 1012 In-Reply-To: <12800362.1215529713135.JavaMail.root@mswamui-cedar.atl.sa.earthlink.net> References: <12800362.1215529713135.JavaMail.root@mswamui-cedar.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <6A782540-535E-4F6F-8FD2-6E88B6EFE564@mac.com> And this one is great, Zinn speaking over film clip with Guthrie's Ludlow Massacre also in the background: http://webmunism.com/vids/of/labor+historians (scroll down on the left to "Howard Zinn and the Ludlow Massacre") You can also hear samples of tunes from Guthrie's "Hard Travelin': The Asch Recordings, Vol. 3" at: http://www.smithsonianglobalsound.org/trackdetail.aspx?itemid=35036 Awesome stuff. Listen to some of the other clips, too - Bekah On Jul 8, 2008, at 8:08 AM, kelber at mindspring.com wrote: > I attempted to send a link to the Woody Guthrie song, The Ludlow > Massacre, but apparently the file was too large to make it > through. It's worth looking it up on i-tunes. > > Laura > > -----Original Message----- >> From: Bekah >> Sent: Jul 8, 2008 2:33 AM >> To: pynchon -l >> Subject: AtD - (36) pgs 1007 - 1012 >> >> Starting at page 1007 - >> This whole Ludlow section is written exactly like the history as it's >> documented in several places on the net - a few mentioned below. All >> that deliberate misery-making can get quite depressing. There is no >> need here for anything other than a pretty straightforward account >> (and inserting some characters) - the events speak for themselves. >> >> >> Winter of 1913-1914 >> Stray goes from Trinidad to Ludlow (about 12 miles southeast) where >> the coal miners had been striking and living in a tent colony since >> September. >> >> * >> The tent colony was for those union members who were on strike and >> therefore had been evicted from their company owned homes. These >> >> * >> Guns lined up: (!) >> http://courses.ed.asu.edu/margolis/life/homepage_files/image021a.gif >> >> >> Ludlow Massacre: >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ludlow_Massacre >> http://www.cobar.org/index.cfm/ID/581/dpwfp/Historical-Foreward-and- >> Bibliography/ >> >> Excellent Photo Galleries -( scroll right) >> http://www.du.edu/anthro/ludlow/cfphoto.html >> >> >> Today Ludlow is a ghost town - >> http://www.cultimedia.ch/ghosttowns/htme/ludlowco.htm >> with a monument: >> http://www.flickr.com/photos/surlymonkey/935096702/ >> >> * >> >> Photo of the "Death Car" >> http://courses.ed.asu.edu/margolis/life/homepage_files/image010a.gif >> >> "They used an improvised armored car, mounted with a M1895 Colt- >> Browning machine gun that the union called the "Death Special," to >> patrol the camp's perimeters. The steel-covered car was built in the >> CF&I plant in Pueblo from the chassis of a large touring sedan. >> Because of frequent sniping on the tent colonies, miners dug >> protective pits beneath the tents where they and their families could >> seek shelter." >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ludlow_Massacre#The_mine_strike >> >> ********************* >> >> page 108 >> Jesse shows up via the Colorado and Southern railway >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:C%26S_RR_map.jpg >> * >> >> Light as torture / darkness as compassion >> "The Colorodo militia were in fact giving light a bad name. Military >> wisdom had it that putting searchlights on the enemy allowed you to >> see them, while blinding them to you, giving you an inestimable edge >> both tactical and psychological. In the tents, darkness in that awful >> winter was sought like warmth or quiet. It seemed like a form of >> compassion. " >> >> Jesse goes out - comes back smug and the lights are out. >> >> >> ********************* >> page 109 >> It was a very bad winter - tents collapse from the snow, etc. >> http://www.sangres.com/history/coalfieldwar01.htm >> http://courses.ed.asu.edu/margolis/life/homepage_files/exp01.htm >> (stick around there - the images change) >> >> * >> Strike breakers coming in via cattle cars from Pennsylvania and >> trains escorted from the Mexican border. >> There were 24 languages spoken in the tent city. >> http://www.cobar.org/index.cfm/ID/581/dpwfp/Historical-Foreward-and- >> Bibliography/ >> * >> Moss Gatlin (Johann Most?) preaches forbearance and violence at the >> same time >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johann_Most >> * >> The mood grows uglier, women are raped, kids are beaten, in Trinidad >> the military attacked women marching in support of the strike, no one >> killed (to this point) >> see "The Autobiography of Mother Jones" - Part 3: >> http://www.angelfire.com/nj3/RonMBaseman/mojones3.htm >> * >> >> The 2 colt machine guns on armored "Death Car" >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M1895_Colt-Browning_machine_gun >> >> >> Baldwin-Felts "detective" agency. >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baldwin-Felts >> >> "Baldwin-Felts had a reputation for aggressive strike breaking. >> Agents shone searchlights on the tent villages at night and randomly >> fired into the tents, occasionally killing and maiming people. They >> used an improvised armored car, mounted with a M1895 Colt-Browning >> machine gun that the union called the "Death Special," to patrol the >> camp's perimeters. The steel-covered car was built in the CF&I plant >> in Pueblo from the chassis of a large touring sedan. Because of >> frequent sniping on the tent colonies, miners dug protective pits >> beneath the tents where they and their families could seek shelter. " >> >> A different pov: http://www.baldwinfeltsdetectives.com/ (right - >> just fyi) >> >> ******* >> >> page 1010 >> Guardsmen are bad news - blonde - shades of Nazi >> >> Jesse finds a level of evil never expected in adults until now. >> >> Not one but a whole fleet of Death Specials and the drivers fear >> they will be the victims. >> >> Jessie denies association with Union group >> >> **** >> >> page 1011 >> but Jessie also steals two 30 caliber machine gun rounds to prevent >> them being shot >> >> Meanwhile, (and at this point it's April 19, 1914 or so - the day >> prior to the massacre) >> Frank Traverse is in Aguilar, between Walsenberg and Trinidad >> at the 29 Luglio Saloon named for Anarchist Bresci assassinated King >> Umberto of Italy >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaetano_Bresci >> >> He's checking out a gun - (imaginary? no) >> Benet Mercier >> http://tinyurl.com/63bttu >> (follow links): http://forums.gunboards.com/archive/index.php? >> t-20386.html >> >> >> Empire Mine - dangerous >> there was an explosion there killing 13 people in 1919 >> NY Times 3 days after Ludlow Massacre: >> http://tinyurl.com/4qvvb5 >> >> >> Frank sees a woman who looks like Michelangelo's Pieta to others: >> (in case you forgot) >> http://www.saintpetersbasilica.org/Altars/Pieta/Pieta-ah06.jpg >> >> Stray - recognizes Frank and tells him the night's young >> It's Stray - dressed as a "Sister of Charity" >> http://jama.ama-assn.org/content/vol296/issue8/images/medium/ >> jbk60126fa.jpg >> >> *************** >> >> Page 1012 >> >> Frank and Stray get reacquainted, there in the bar and find out if >> each other is free, relationship wise - Ewball / Ren >> Frank is not just Reef without the loco streak - he's different - not >> so readable now here in coalfields which were about to explode >> >> Frank: "They're fixing to do away with all them tents." >> >> "Creeping along, her nun's shadow in the search light beams..." >> >> >> April 19 - Jesse has gone with Balkan kids - "It's their Easter or >> somethin." >> The Balkan kids" would likely be Eastern Orthodox religion and >> their Easter falls at some point between early April to early May, >> following the cycle of the moon. After several centuries of >> disagreement, all churches accepted the computation of the >> Alexandrian Church (now the Coptic Church) that Easter is the first >> Sunday after the first fourteenth day of the moon (the Paschal Full >> Moon) that is on or after the ecclesiastical vernal equinox. >> >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Easter >> >> *********************** >> > From against.the.dave at gmail.com Tue Jul 8 13:22:16 2008 From: against.the.dave at gmail.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2008 13:22:16 -0500 Subject: Drew Heitzler Message-ID: Dallas Report: A Contemporary Art Destination TEXAS SEEN John Zotos Hidden away in the flatlands of north Texas lies the city of Dallas, a large metropolis noteworthy now more than ever for a growing museum network with large holdings of contemporary art in the downtown arts district; it's a hub flanked on various sides with young commercial gallery spaces. Fueled by a national interest in contemporary art, and no shortage of money, the Dallas arts district thrives with architectural spaces dedicated to art and performance designed by the likes of Renzo Piano, Rem Koolhaas, and Norman Foster and Partners. This energy has led to a concentration of new gallery spaces in a former warehouse district on one side of town, complemented by the same concentration of spaces in the design district on the other end. Together these spaces exhibit local and international talent with the goal of establishing the city as an art center. On the east side of downtown, in a warehouse district, Angstrom Projects strives to bring ambitious art to its walls. Currently on view for the first time in Texas is the video, photo collage, and installation art of Drew Heitzler, a participant in the 2008 Whitney Biennial. Based in Los Angeles, Heitzler draws upon the foundational position this cinema city occupies in the American psyche in order to subvert assumptions about cultural hegemony, while questioning the myths of progress that typically accompany the representation of Hollywood in general, and the U.S. in particular. For example, Heitzler seizes upon the figure of Thomas Pynchon, the rarely photographed fiction writer whose work examines conspiracy and paranoia. The installation includes a copy of a photograph of a young Pynchon as well as a suite of photo-collage laser prints that supplant "sunny California" with the grim consequences of the regions' geological-based petrol industry.... http://www.nyartsmagazine.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=259289&Itemid=752 Drew Heitzler http://www.angstromgallery.com/JSPWiki/Wiki.jsp?page=DrewHeitzler From kelber at mindspring.com Tue Jul 8 14:26:39 2008 From: kelber at mindspring.com (kelber at mindspring.com) Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2008 15:26:39 -0400 (EDT) Subject: AtD - (36) pgs 1007 - 1012 Message-ID: <14049307.1215545200490.JavaMail.root@mswamui-cedar.atl.sa.earthlink.net> here are the lyrics to the Guthrie song: (from the Guthrie website: http://www.woodyguthrie.org/Lyrics/Ludlow_Massacre.htm) Ludlow Massacre It was early springtime when the strike was on, They drove us miners out of doors, Out from the houses that the Company owned, We moved into tents up at old Ludlow. I was worried bad about my children, Soldiers guarding the railroad bridge, Every once in a while a bullet would fly, Kick up gravel under my feet. We were so afraid you would kill our children, We dug us a cave that was seven foot deep, Carried our young ones and pregnant women Down inside the cave to sleep. That very night your soldiers waited, Until all us miners were asleep, You snuck around our little tent town, Soaked our tents with your kerosene. You struck a match and in the blaze that started, You pulled the triggers of your gatling guns, I made a run for the children but the fire wall stopped me. Thirteen children died from your guns. I carried my blanket to a wire fence corner, Watched the fire till the blaze died down, I helped some people drag their belongings, While your bullets killed us all around. I never will forget the look on the faces Of the men and women that awful day, When we stood around to preach their funerals, And lay the corpses of the dead away. We told the Colorado Governor to call the President, Tell him to call off his National Guard, But the National Guard belonged to the Governor, So he didn't try so very hard. Our women from Trinidad they hauled some potatoes, Up to Walsenburg in a little cart, They sold their potatoes and brought some guns back, And they put a gun in every hand. The state soldiers jumped us in a wire fence corners, They did not know we had these guns, And the Red-neck Miners mowed down these troopers, You should have seen those poor boys run. We took some cement and walled that cave up, Where you killed these thirteen children inside, I said, "God bless the Mine Workers' Union," And then I hung my head and cried. -----Original Message----- >From: Bekah >Sent: Jul 8, 2008 2:09 PM >To: pynchon -l >Subject: Re: AtD - (36) pgs 1007 - 1012 > >And this one is great, Zinn speaking over film clip with Guthrie's >Ludlow Massacre also in the background: >http://webmunism.com/vids/of/labor+historians >(scroll down on the left to "Howard Zinn and the Ludlow Massacre") > >You can also hear samples of tunes from Guthrie's "Hard Travelin': >The Asch Recordings, Vol. 3" at: >http://www.smithsonianglobalsound.org/trackdetail.aspx?itemid=35036 > >Awesome stuff. Listen to some of the other clips, too - > >Bekah > > >On Jul 8, 2008, at 8:08 AM, kelber at mindspring.com wrote: > >> I attempted to send a link to the Woody Guthrie song, The Ludlow >> Massacre, but apparently the file was too large to make it >> through. It's worth looking it up on i-tunes. >> >> Laura >> >> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Bekah >>> Sent: Jul 8, 2008 2:33 AM >>> To: pynchon -l >>> Subject: AtD - (36) pgs 1007 - 1012 >>> >>> Starting at page 1007 - >>> This whole Ludlow section is written exactly like the history as it's >>> documented in several places on the net - a few mentioned below. All >>> that deliberate misery-making can get quite depressing. There is no >>> need here for anything other than a pretty straightforward account >>> (and inserting some characters) - the events speak for themselves. >>> >>> >>> Winter of 1913-1914 >>> Stray goes from Trinidad to Ludlow (about 12 miles southeast) where >>> the coal miners had been striking and living in a tent colony since >>> September. >>> >>> * >>> The tent colony was for those union members who were on strike and >>> therefore had been evicted from their company owned homes. These >>> >>> * >>> Guns lined up: (!) >>> http://courses.ed.asu.edu/margolis/life/homepage_files/image021a.gif >>> >>> >>> Ludlow Massacre: >>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ludlow_Massacre >>> http://www.cobar.org/index.cfm/ID/581/dpwfp/Historical-Foreward-and- >>> Bibliography/ >>> >>> Excellent Photo Galleries -( scroll right) >>> http://www.du.edu/anthro/ludlow/cfphoto.html >>> >>> >>> Today Ludlow is a ghost town - >>> http://www.cultimedia.ch/ghosttowns/htme/ludlowco.htm >>> with a monument: >>> http://www.flickr.com/photos/surlymonkey/935096702/ >>> >>> * >>> >>> Photo of the "Death Car" >>> http://courses.ed.asu.edu/margolis/life/homepage_files/image010a.gif >>> >>> "They used an improvised armored car, mounted with a M1895 Colt- >>> Browning machine gun that the union called the "Death Special," to >>> patrol the camp's perimeters. The steel-covered car was built in the >>> CF&I plant in Pueblo from the chassis of a large touring sedan. >>> Because of frequent sniping on the tent colonies, miners dug >>> protective pits beneath the tents where they and their families could >>> seek shelter." >>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ludlow_Massacre#The_mine_strike >>> >>> ********************* >>> >>> page 108 >>> Jesse shows up via the Colorado and Southern railway >>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:C%26S_RR_map.jpg >>> * >>> >>> Light as torture / darkness as compassion >>> "The Colorodo militia were in fact giving light a bad name. Military >>> wisdom had it that putting searchlights on the enemy allowed you to >>> see them, while blinding them to you, giving you an inestimable edge >>> both tactical and psychological. In the tents, darkness in that awful >>> winter was sought like warmth or quiet. It seemed like a form of >>> compassion. " >>> >>> Jesse goes out - comes back smug and the lights are out. >>> >>> >>> ********************* >>> page 109 >>> It was a very bad winter - tents collapse from the snow, etc. >>> http://www.sangres.com/history/coalfieldwar01.htm >>> http://courses.ed.asu.edu/margolis/life/homepage_files/exp01.htm >>> (stick around there - the images change) >>> >>> * >>> Strike breakers coming in via cattle cars from Pennsylvania and >>> trains escorted from the Mexican border. >>> There were 24 languages spoken in the tent city. >>> http://www.cobar.org/index.cfm/ID/581/dpwfp/Historical-Foreward-and- >>> Bibliography/ >>> * >>> Moss Gatlin (Johann Most?) preaches forbearance and violence at the >>> same time >>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johann_Most >>> * >>> The mood grows uglier, women are raped, kids are beaten, in Trinidad >>> the military attacked women marching in support of the strike, no one >>> killed (to this point) >>> see "The Autobiography of Mother Jones" - Part 3: >>> http://www.angelfire.com/nj3/RonMBaseman/mojones3.htm >>> * >>> >>> The 2 colt machine guns on armored "Death Car" >>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M1895_Colt-Browning_machine_gun >>> >>> >>> Baldwin-Felts "detective" agency. >>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baldwin-Felts >>> >>> "Baldwin-Felts had a reputation for aggressive strike breaking. >>> Agents shone searchlights on the tent villages at night and randomly >>> fired into the tents, occasionally killing and maiming people. They >>> used an improvised armored car, mounted with a M1895 Colt-Browning >>> machine gun that the union called the "Death Special," to patrol the >>> camp's perimeters. The steel-covered car was built in the CF&I plant >>> in Pueblo from the chassis of a large touring sedan. Because of >>> frequent sniping on the tent colonies, miners dug protective pits >>> beneath the tents where they and their families could seek shelter. " >>> >>> A different pov: http://www.baldwinfeltsdetectives.com/ (right - >>> just fyi) >>> >>> ******* >>> >>> page 1010 >>> Guardsmen are bad news - blonde - shades of Nazi >>> >>> Jesse finds a level of evil never expected in adults until now. >>> >>> Not one but a whole fleet of Death Specials and the drivers fear >>> they will be the victims. >>> >>> Jessie denies association with Union group >>> >>> **** >>> >>> page 1011 >>> but Jessie also steals two 30 caliber machine gun rounds to prevent >>> them being shot >>> >>> Meanwhile, (and at this point it's April 19, 1914 or so - the day >>> prior to the massacre) >>> Frank Traverse is in Aguilar, between Walsenberg and Trinidad >>> at the 29 Luglio Saloon named for Anarchist Bresci assassinated King >>> Umberto of Italy >>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaetano_Bresci >>> >>> He's checking out a gun - (imaginary? no) >>> Benet Mercier >>> http://tinyurl.com/63bttu >>> (follow links): http://forums.gunboards.com/archive/index.php? >>> t-20386.html >>> >>> >>> Empire Mine - dangerous >>> there was an explosion there killing 13 people in 1919 >>> NY Times 3 days after Ludlow Massacre: >>> http://tinyurl.com/4qvvb5 >>> >>> >>> Frank sees a woman who looks like Michelangelo's Pieta to others: >>> (in case you forgot) >>> http://www.saintpetersbasilica.org/Altars/Pieta/Pieta-ah06.jpg >>> >>> Stray - recognizes Frank and tells him the night's young >>> It's Stray - dressed as a "Sister of Charity" >>> http://jama.ama-assn.org/content/vol296/issue8/images/medium/ >>> jbk60126fa.jpg >>> >>> *************** >>> >>> Page 1012 >>> >>> Frank and Stray get reacquainted, there in the bar and find out if >>> each other is free, relationship wise - Ewball / Ren >>> Frank is not just Reef without the loco streak - he's different - not >>> so readable now here in coalfields which were about to explode >>> >>> Frank: "They're fixing to do away with all them tents." >>> >>> "Creeping along, her nun's shadow in the search light beams..." >>> >>> >>> April 19 - Jesse has gone with Balkan kids - "It's their Easter or >>> somethin." >>> The Balkan kids" would likely be Eastern Orthodox religion and >>> their Easter falls at some point between early April to early May, >>> following the cycle of the moon. After several centuries of >>> disagreement, all churches accepted the computation of the >>> Alexandrian Church (now the Coptic Church) that Easter is the first >>> Sunday after the first fourteenth day of the moon (the Paschal Full >>> Moon) that is on or after the ecclesiastical vernal equinox. >>> >>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Easter >>> >>> *********************** >>> >> > From pgdf at cox.net Tue Jul 8 15:58:49 2008 From: pgdf at cox.net (Paul Di Filippo) Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2008 16:58:49 -0400 Subject: FYI: my new blog Message-ID: <7907B9CB-8189-42A3-9B40-5508376BD5DD@cox.net> PRESS RELEASE July 9, 2008 Welcome, friends, to an exciting new world of weird! In fact, many worlds—and so big, we could only call it— WEIRD UNIVERSE. WEIRD UNIVERSE is the new superblog that brings together three well- known creators and experts in all things weird. Alex Boese runs THE MUSEUM OF HOAXES, a well-known enterprise devoted to debunking in amusing fashion the more outrageous claims foisted on a credulous public. Paul Di Filippo has been paid to put weird ideas into fictional form for over thirty years, in his career as a noted science fiction writer, and has recently begun blogging on many curious topics with his three fellow writers at The Inferior 4+1. Chuck Shepherd is the purveyor of NEWS OF THE WEIRD, the syndicated column which for decades has set the gold-standard for reporting on oddities and the bizarre. Now these three staunch and intrepid correspondents—under a beautiful new banner by legendary underground cartoonist Rick Altergott—are pooling their expertise to bring you the most wide-ranging daily collection of weird reading material anyone could ask for. WEIRD UNIVERSE will feature Chuck Shepherd’s daily feed on the most oddball news items of recent vintage. Regular posts such as “Follies of the Mad Men”—a history of Madison Avenue’s more dubious achievements—will alternate with lists, historical oddities, commentary and speculation. Together, the mix will cover every aspect of a human and natural cosmos that is not only “stranger than we imagine, but stranger than we can imagine.” We believe in the power of the weird. To entertain, to elucidate, to edify. To humble, to horrify, to honor. To shock, to surprise, to scandalize. Most vitally, we believe in the power of the weird as the final frontier of gloriously untameable human nature. In a world that grows increasingly homogenous, regimented, authoritarian, timid and fearful, the weird stands as humanity’s last best hope for spontaneity, ingenuity, bravery, goofiness, laughter, astonishment, and crazy wisdom. We believe in the power of the weird. Visit WEIRD UNIVERSE, and you will too! For more information, contact any or all of the participants: Alex Boese Paul Di Filippo Chuck Shepherd LIST OF LINKS SITES http://weirduniverse.net/ http://museumofhoaxes.com/ http://community.livejournal.com/theinferior4/ http://www.newsoftheweird.com/ http://www.rickaltergott.com/ EMAIL ADDRESSES alex at museumofhoaxes.com pgdf at cox.net WeirdNews at earthlink.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From scuffling at gmail.com Tue Jul 8 16:47:57 2008 From: scuffling at gmail.com (Henry) Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2008 17:47:57 -0400 Subject: my new blog In-Reply-To: <7907B9CB-8189-42A3-9B40-5508376BD5DD@cox.net> References: <7907B9CB-8189-42A3-9B40-5508376BD5DD@cox.net> Message-ID: <000801c8e144$49f2be10$ddd83a30$@com> Crackers! Great stuff, Paul; a-and the next time that I'm near San Diego, I'm going to the Museum of Hoaxes! Really! Henry Mu Information, Media, and Technology Consultant http://my.barackobama.com/page/community/blog/henrymu ------------------------ From: Paul Di Filippo To: fictionmags at yahoogroups.com Cc: pynchon-l at waste.org PRESS RELEASE   July 9, 2008   Welcome, friends, to an exciting new world of weird!   In fact, many worlds—and so big, we could only call it—   WEIRD UNIVERSE.   WEIRD UNIVERSE is the new superblog that brings together three well-known creators and experts in all things weird.   Alex Boese runs THE MUSEUM OF HOAXES, a well-known enterprise devoted to debunking in amusing fashion the more outrageous claims foisted on a credulous public.   Paul Di Filippo has been paid to put weird ideas into fictional form for over thirty years, in his career as a noted science fiction writer, and has recently begun blogging on many curious topics with his three fellow writers at The Inferior 4+1.   Chuck Shepherd is the purveyor of NEWS OF THE WEIRD, the syndicated column which for decades has set the gold-standard for reporting on oddities and the bizarre.   Now these three staunch and intrepid correspondents—under a beautiful new banner by legendary underground cartoonist Rick Altergott—are pooling their expertise to bring you the most wide-ranging daily collection of weird reading material anyone could ask for.   WEIRD UNIVERSE will feature Chuck Shepherd’s daily feed on the most oddball news items of recent vintage. Regular posts such as “Follies of the Mad Men”—a history of Madison Avenue’s more dubious achievements—will alternate with lists, historical oddities, commentary and speculation. Together, the mix will cover every aspect of a human and natural cosmos that is not only “stranger than we imagine, but stranger than we can imagine.”   We believe in the power of the weird.   To entertain, to elucidate, to edify. To humble, to horrify, to honor. To shock, to surprise, to scandalize.   Most vitally, we believe in the power of the weird as the final frontier of gloriously untameable human nature. In a world that grows increasingly homogenous, regimented, authoritarian, timid and fearful, the weird stands as humanity’s last best hope for spontaneity, ingenuity, bravery, goofiness, laughter, astonishment, and crazy wisdom.   We believe in the power of the weird.   Visit WEIRD UNIVERSE, and you will too!   For more information, contact any or all of the participants:   Alex Boese Paul Di Filippo Chuck Shepherd   LIST OF LINKS   SITES http://weirduniverse.net/ http://museumofhoaxes.com/ http://community.livejournal.com/theinferior4/ http://www.newsoftheweird.com/ http://www.rickaltergott.com/   EMAIL ADDRESSES alex at museumofhoaxes.com pgdf at cox.net WeirdNews at earthlink.net From robert_mahnke at earthlink.net Tue Jul 8 16:54:05 2008 From: robert_mahnke at earthlink.net (Robert Mahnke) Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2008 17:54:05 -0400 (GMT-04:00) Subject: FYI: my new blog Message-ID: <7353227.1215554046152.JavaMail.root@elwamui-little.atl.sa.earthlink.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From scuffling at gmail.com Tue Jul 8 17:40:01 2008 From: scuffling at gmail.com (Henry) Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2008 18:40:01 -0400 Subject: FYI: my new blog In-Reply-To: <7353227.1215554046152.JavaMail.root@elwamui-little.atl.sa.earthlink.net> References: <7353227.1215554046152.JavaMail.root@elwamui-little.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <000c01c8e14b$8f6d7050$ae4850f0$@com> Hey, hey! Yes, siree... Dig his crazy scene! Henry Mu Information, Media, and Technology Consultant http://my.barackobama.com/page/community/blog/henrymu -----Original Message----- From: Robert Mahnke Paul D.'s got a brand new blog? From isread at btinternet.com Wed Jul 9 00:01:59 2008 From: isread at btinternet.com (Paul Nightingale) Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2008 06:01:59 +0100 Subject: Atdtda28: Entertaining possibilities, 780-782 Message-ID: <000301c8e180$eb3c9a20$c1b5ce60$@com> The Event and the date are finally linked explicitly (781), although discussion cannot adequately represent what happened. As the issue is debated, with exchanges bordering on the acrimonious, consensus among the crew remains elusive: cf. the apparent unanimity of "eyewitnesses living below". This section continues the introduction to the Russian crew, with two points being emphasised: the Chum-like bickering and the size of the crew, similarity and difference. There is a sharp contrast drawn between those named and those anonymous others who "[fall] into a holiday routine". As the officers obsess in the wardroom, the crew is freed from direct supervision. In the midst of the section Padzhitnoff's pov is prioritised; and his silent musing includes the possibility that they have "all developed a collective amnesia about" the Event. It is in this passage, amid the speculation, a lot of which occurs in unattributed dialogue, that Padzhitnoff links Event and date: if it cannot be explained it can at least be identified and logged. The chapter's opening one-line section (779) does not make it clear if narration is 'current' or retrospective, ie 'present tense' or 'past tense'; but succeeding sections offer a non-comprehending aftermath and track narration's failure to 'return' to the Event. Hence Padzhitnoff's "collective amnesia", the failure to know if this is even something they should recall (even if "[t]he possibility had to be entertained ..." etc, 781). Previously, certainty was tied to Heaven's mandate (779); here, more and more is uncertain, not least Padzhitnoff's knowledge of his own crew (781). If nothing is certain, that must include his own recollection of what the Bol'shaia Ingra has been involved in. However, this introspective account, by acknowledging the possibility of repression, does bring its author into the Event; other officers attempt to remain objectively aloof, the exchange of insults ("Ouspenkian!"--"Bolshevik!") a denunciation of each other's partiality. At the same time Padzhitnoff is distanced from the crew as an observer of "this spectacle", one that emphasises the shift from the unknowable Event to the writing of it. From bekker2 at mac.com Wed Jul 9 00:55:13 2008 From: bekker2 at mac.com (Bekah) Date: Tue, 08 Jul 2008 22:55:13 -0700 Subject: test Message-ID: <2F5EEA3C-4147-48B5-A49B-2F5B411DCC70@mac.com> test - mail not turning up From bekker2 at mac.com Wed Jul 9 01:05:35 2008 From: bekker2 at mac.com (Bekah) Date: Tue, 08 Jul 2008 23:05:35 -0700 Subject: ATDTDA: (36) pages 1013-1017 Message-ID: <1855465D-ECBA-4630-B298-0FAC6017879D@mac.com> I'm not getting through? Trying again. This is the rest of that section through the end of Ludlow. The April 20th, 1914 and fighting in the Ludlow tent camp breaks out at about 10 am. (Song lyrics at the end of this.) The personal account of Victor Bazanele, an 84 year old (in 1976) miner from Austria (from an interview) with quite a few photos - : http://courses.ed.asu.edu/margolis/life/homepageexp.htm Page 1013 Frank sees a face from past - narrow hat, high forehead mouth in a slit - a lizard's face - not a nickle's worth of mercy (his photo does look like that): It's probably K.J. Linderfelt - Lieutenant in National Guard http://courses.ed.asu.edu/margolis/life/homepage_files/image015a.gif Jesse comes in with a Winchester repeater- he tried to cut RR lines but ran out of bullets Introductions of Frank to Jesse (are these names redolent or maybe even allusionary somehow of the wild west world of Frank and Jesse James? ******************** page 1014 Frank shows Jessie his old Krag with trapdoor - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.30-40_Krag (Frank and Jesse? As in James?) http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0109835/ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesse_James Frank plans for Jesse and Stray to escape through the arroyo because it's going to get very bad- ****************** page 1015 Baldwins, sheriff's posse, KKK, ranger groups - carrying torches - smoke - to cast blackness To cast blackness? The tents were set on fire and those who could escaped. The KKK was probably there in some form because within a year there was a fairly solid second national movement and within 6 years they were powerful in the Colorado. Brice, the militia guy says, "I'm really fuckin' tired. Ain't none of us been paid since we came down." (is this surprising?) "Get your anarchist ass out of here and if you people pray - pray I don't see it in the daylight." So Jesse, age about what, 12?, is now an anarchist. ******************** page 1017 Frank is up in the arroyo and feels a hand but it's not Stray and there was nobody near- could be the hand of some dead striker --- "Maybe even Webb's own hand. Webb and all that he had tried to make of his life, and all that had been taken, and all the paths his children had gone off on . . . Frank woke after a few seconds, found he'd been drooling down his shirt. This would not do." Ghosts again - trying to break through. A photo of the arroyo: (scroll down) http://www.desertusa.com/mag06/ aug/arroys.html Frank sends Stray and Jesse back to her sister's but Jesse wants to stay. "I'll be there quick as 'we' can get this wrapped up." They both heard that "we," not the one they'd hoped for but the other one, the collective of shadows, dead on tehir feet, not half a d ozen words of Englsih among them, rifle butts dragging in the dirt, filing away east up the wagon road into the Black Hills now, trying to stay together. " At dusk, a passing freight train stopped on the tracks in front of the Guards' machine gun placements, allowing many of the miners and their families to escape to an outcrop of hills to the east called the "Black Hills." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ludlow_Massacre#The_massacre http://www.santafetrailscenicandhistoricbyway.org/ludlow.html (good map of where the train went through near Ludlow) By 7:00 p.m., the camp was in flames, and the militia descended on it and began to search and loot the camp. L During the battle, four women and eleven children had been hiding in a pit beneath one tent, where they were trapped when the tent above them was set on fire. Two of the women and all of the children suffocated. These deaths became a rallying cry for the UMWA, who called the incident the "Ludlow Massacre."[1] In addition to the fire victims, Louis Tikas (union leader - Greek) and the other men who were shot to death (including Linderfelt), three company guards and one militiaman were also killed in that day's fighting. and the aftermath at: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ludlow_Massacre ************* Other links and info: Ludlow Massacre - photos etc : http://members.tripod.com/~RedRobin2/index-29.html Linderfeld, under military arrest for murder, arson, and larceny, accepted responsibility because he was "defending the flag." NY Times 1914: http://tinyurl.com/5r5cf2' * News account from New York World 1914 http://historymatters.gmu.edu/d/5737/ * Howard Zinn a commemorative song and film clips: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U6kuvBnNNUs (Sorry, Mr. Zinn - as much as I respect what you do, I heard about the Ludlow Massacre in high school history - but since you were born in 1922 it's possible the horrors hadn't got to the history books yet when you were attended.) *********** Music: "Our Cause is Marching On," published in the United Mine Workers Journal on December 11, 1913, Sung to the tune of "The Battle Hymn of the Republic." first stanza, chorus, and fourth stanza: There's a fight in Colorado for to set the miners free, From the tyrants and the money kings and all the powers that be, They have trampled o'er the freedom that was meant for you and me, But right is marching on. Chorus Cheer, boys, cheer the cause of union! The Colorado miners' union! Glory, glory to our union! Our cause is marching on. There were union men at Lexington and famous Bunker Hill, At Valley Forge and Brandywine, to curb a tyrant's will, And the union men at Gettysburg displayed the greatest skill, To keep this nation whole. http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3732/is_200204/ai_n9025623/ pg_3?tag=artBody;col1 and another one by Aired Hayes John D. he was a Christian, John D. the psalms he sung; But he'd no mercy in his heart, He shot down old and young. One night when all were sleeping, all wrapped up in their dreams, We heard a loud explosion, We heard most terrible screams. "Oh, save us from the burning flames," We heard our children cry; But John D. laughed and shot them down Right there before our eyes. (Greenway 1953:14-15) Buried Unsung: Louis Tikas and the Ludlow Massacre http://tinyurl.com/4yauhe ***** Bekah From robinlandseadel at comcast.net Wed Jul 9 08:32:07 2008 From: robinlandseadel at comcast.net (robinlandseadel at comcast.net) Date: Wed, 09 Jul 2008 13:32:07 +0000 Subject: ATDTDA (38)Pink Tabs, cover Message-ID: <070920081332.21202.4874BDD7000A3668000052D22216566276040A0B0E0A9C0B020E0402070D019D@comcast.net> In the Craft, we pray to an imminent goddess; she permeates all walks of life, within and without us. We do not just pray to her "above" but also "within." When patriarchal religions talk about the "grace" that comes to those who pray, they are talking about the same things we did thousands of years before them. Cultivate your deeper mind and be well. Zsuzsanna Budapest. "The Holy Book of Women's Mysteries" So I start the flashbacks before the trip is quite over. I finally figured out the Pink Tabs�those passages that reminded me of The Crying of Lot 49 and Tris/Trystero. It's the intersection of the Occult and the Encrypted, some of the backstory of heretics forced to encrypt their messages in order to save their skins. Let's start with the cover, shall we? The book's title is seen through a hunk of clear, optical grade Calcite. The topmost layer�the present� has some sort of stamp of the Tibetian Chamber of Commerce. We see the three different fonts representing the layers of time in three different styles of typeface. Pynchon's novels always have Un-named characters driving the book's plots, both literary plots and and the plots of crimes being committed. Somehow, murmuring in the background of Gravity's Rainbow I sense Crowley. Lurking in the background of Against the Day is Einstein. The overarching theme of the book is light itself and Against the Day's cover [the first printing] encrypts a paradox or two�if light is both a wave and a particle, Iceland Spar demonstrates one particle becoming two. Pynchon works from the notion that those two particles are now running along different time axes. And there you are�different time axes, the notion that there are other presents, other futures we may or may not be living in. One of those other futures is Shambhala, earthly paradise. That stamp on the cover of Against the Day is bilocated. The illustration on the stamp is from about the time of the Tungusga Event, but the inscription of "Tibetan Chamber of Commerce" is from the present. The significance of that stamp will become quite apparent later, in August, when we are on the Rue du D�part: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0091874/ http://www.last.fm/music/Anouar+Brahem/_/Rue+du+d�part http://www.hotel-paris-waldorf.com/hotel-waldorf-english/location.html http://outofthewoodsnow.blogspot.com/2008/06/rue-du-dpart.html From scuffling at gmail.com Wed Jul 9 08:44:46 2008 From: scuffling at gmail.com (Henry) Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2008 09:44:46 -0400 Subject: American Fiction of the 1990s References: <7907B9CB-8189-42A3-9B40-5508376BD5DD@cox.net> Message-ID: <001401c8e1c9$f4167e10$dc437a30$@com> American Fiction of the 1990s http://tinyurl.com/6rerpv Reflections of history and culture Edited by Jay Prosser Table of Contents 1. Introduction - Jay Prosser. Transnational Borders. 2. Outside In: Latino/a Un-bordering in US Fiction - A. Robert Lee. 3. "Come change your destiny, turn suffering into silver and joy": Constituting Americans - Nahem Yousaf. 4. America as Diaphor: Cultural Translation in Bharati Mukherjee's The Holder of the World - Krishna Sen. Race Cathexes. 5. Red, White and Black: Racial Exchanges in Fiction by Sherman Alexie - Andrew Dix. 6. In the Shadow of the Gun: African-American Fiction and the Anxieties of Nostalgia - Andrew Warnes. 7. Tragic No More?: The Reappearance of the Racially Mixed Character - Suzanne W. Jones. Historical Narratives. 8. The Way We Were(n't): Origins and Empire in Thomas Pynchon's Mason & Dixon - Stacey Olster. 9. Contesting the Historical Pastoral in Philip Roth's American Trilogy - Derek Parker Royal. 10. Skating on a shit field: Tim O'Brien and the topography of trauma - Brian Jarvis. Sex Images. 11. A Painful Progress: Queer Fiction and the American Protest Literature Tradition - Zoe Trodd. 12. Regular Lolitas: The Afterlives of an American Adolescent - Kasia Boddy. 13. Glamorama, Fight Club, and the Terror of Narcissistic Abjection - Alex Blazer. Postmodern Technologies. 14. Beyond the Cold War in Don DeLillo's Mao II and Underworld - Peter Knight. 15. Selfless Cravings: Addiction and Recovery in David Foster Wallace's Infinite Jest - Timothy Aubry. 16. The End of Postmodernism: American Fiction at the Millennium - Stephen J. Burn. Henry Mu Information, Media, and Technology Consultant http://my.barackobama.com/page/community/blog/henrymu From fqmorris at gmail.com Wed Jul 9 09:05:00 2008 From: fqmorris at gmail.com (David Morris) Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2008 09:05:00 -0500 Subject: Open Letter To Scientists by tristero Message-ID: <7d461dc80807090705q4d43b45oe0e5649557de6c92@mail.gmail.com> http://digbysblog.blogspot.com/ So get reading, dear scientists. Read Your Darwin! You will enter a world where science and the humanities are not falsely separated but are as connected as all life. Which is as it should be. Love, tristero P.S. I guess you can tell I love The Origin of Species. I put it on my short list with Gravity's Rainbow, Lolita, Moby-Dick, and Harmonielehre, as one of the best books I've ever read. From scuffling at gmail.com Wed Jul 9 10:34:52 2008 From: scuffling at gmail.com (Henry) Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2008 11:34:52 -0400 Subject: Open Letter To Scientists by tristero In-Reply-To: <7d461dc80807090705q4d43b45oe0e5649557de6c92@mail.gmail.com> References: <7d461dc80807090705q4d43b45oe0e5649557de6c92@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <005501c8e1d9$5c6ab8f0$15402ad0$@com> Thanks for the timely suggestion, David. I'm convinced, particularly with next year celebrating the bicentennial of Darwin's birth! Perhaps there's a connection between the shipboard journals of M&D and... HENRY MU Information, Media, and Technology Consultant http://my.barackobama.com/page/community/blog/henrymu -----Original Message----- From: David Morris To: P-list Subject: Open Letter To Scientists by tristero http://digbysblog.blogspot.com/ So get reading, dear scientists. Read Your Darwin! You will enter a world where science and the humanities are not falsely separated but are as connected as all life. Which is as it should be. Love, tristero P.S. I guess you can tell I love The Origin of Species. I put it on my short list with Gravity's Rainbow, Lolita, Moby-Dick, and Harmonielehre, as one of the best books I've ever read. From scuffling at gmail.com Wed Jul 9 10:53:34 2008 From: scuffling at gmail.com (Henry) Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2008 11:53:34 -0400 Subject: Optimism in Montenegro References: <7d461dc80807090705q4d43b45oe0e5649557de6c92@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <006601c8e1db$f373d040$da5b70c0$@com> http://whippersnapper.wordpress.com/2008/07/08/live-from-montenegro/ "Are their novels that are, at their core, optimistic about modernity? Or any works of art, for that matter? Even books that are enthralled with capitalism - the works of Ayn Rand comes to mind - criticize real, exisiting modrn societies for being weak and collectivist. Having just read White Noise and Brideshead Revistited, I can't help but feel dissapointed that the smartest and best novelists - Pynchon, DeLillo, Waugh, hell, even Homer is ambivalent about technology and modernity - have an overall message that seems just wrong." HENRY MU Information, Media, and Technology Consultant http://my.barackobama.com/page/community/blog/henrymu From g.i.s.pursey at reading.ac.uk Wed Jul 9 12:09:11 2008 From: g.i.s.pursey at reading.ac.uk (Guy Ian Scott Pursey) Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2008 18:09:11 +0100 Subject: Working At Cross Purposes? References: <622438.44699.qm@web38407.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <0A9745774F2BF6409F9544231DCC266102AB20D6@vime1.rdg-home.ad.rdg.ac.uk> The rest of the "Man Bytes Blog" article suggests that Pynchon is the closest literature has got, in the blogger's opinion, to being a video game. By "play" I think he means interactivity of the kind most commonly encountered in video games - whereby the "consumer" is challenged by the very thing they are consuming thus making "completion" of the narrative more difficult. With Lot 49, he suggests the cadence of the sentences force the reader into paranoid thought processes. No doubt the odd structure of the book does this too. What he doesn't mention is that this then forces the reader to identify with Oedipa who is (also) paranoid and uncovering these details as we are. So perhaps, the reader becomes the "player" of the book and Oedipa the avatar; we don't see the world through her eyes (or tear-filled goggles) as you would in a first-person narrative but maybe we're locked in just behind and above her as she moves around her projected world, each part rendered just as we approach it, but at other times stored, data that's waiting, in the circuitry of cities, as seen from above...... Really interesting article. Thanks! Guy -----Original Message----- From: owner-pynchon-l at waste.org on behalf of Dave Monroe Sent: Tue 7/8/2008 16:39 To: markekohut at yahoo.com Cc: pynchon -l Subject: Re: Working At Cross Purposes? On 7/8/08, Mark Kohut wrote: > 'deliberative incorporation of play into the text" ??? > > I might have thought the comic scenes were more like "play"? http://www.hup.harvard.edu/catalog/ECOOPE.html http://www.hydra.umn.edu/derrida/sign-play.html From robinlandseadel at comcast.net Wed Jul 9 13:20:24 2008 From: robinlandseadel at comcast.net (robinlandseadel at comcast.net) Date: Wed, 09 Jul 2008 18:20:24 +0000 Subject: Repost: "The Big One" Message-ID: <070920081820.20171.487501680002DA3F00004ECB2215555884040A0B0E0A9C0B020E0402070D019D@comcast.net> Note the date. Didn't have a copy in my hands tll two weeks before release. Subject: The Big One Date: Tue, 08 Aug 2006 Something I have yet to hear mentioned here: What if �Against the Day � turns out to be �The Big One�, the one that ties it all together? Here�s my thoughts. The Occult elements of Pynchon always have been my focus. This just dawned on me: �Mason & Dixon� deals with the historical Mason/Dixon line between an age alchemical and an age scientific. Along with all those anachronisims and bad puns, there's tonne's of olde magicke and persuits alchemical. The historical range of �Against the Day� covers the early development of the Golden Dawn. This will tie this book much more tightly to the occult elements in �Gravity�s Rainbow�. �ATD� just might be �The Big One�. From mryc2903 at yahoo.fr Wed Jul 9 13:52:50 2008 From: mryc2903 at yahoo.fr (Michel Ryckx) Date: Wed, 09 Jul 2008 20:52:50 +0200 Subject: IPW 2008: Some Pictures and more Message-ID: <48750902.9030902@yahoo.fr> Will try to write something on IPW 2008 this weekend -- it was great, really great: the usual suspects, and some brilliant new voices. Some pix can be found at: http://picasaweb.google.com/pynchonweek2008/InternationalPynchonWeek2008. (thank you Sascha, we should start commenting these pictures). Hilarious: coming out of the hall for a coffee break and Sascha's students wearing paper bags, or the Ideenladen.de stand on the first day. Article in the Sueddeutsche can be found at http://www.lrz-muenchen.de/~poehlmann/IPW2008/ (Also FAZ and Welt Online articles -- choose Media Reports) The radio broadcast by Paul Hanske, featuring Sascha, Heinz Ickstadt, Hanjo Beressem and a Pynchon nut has found a permanent home on http://www.vheissu.info/art/Pynchon_Generator.mp3 (in German) ___________________________________________________________________________ Yahoo! Mail réinvente le mail ! Découvrez le nouveau Yahoo! Mail et son interface révolutionnaire. http://fr.mail.yahoo.com From fqmorris at gmail.com Wed Jul 9 14:12:12 2008 From: fqmorris at gmail.com (David Morris) Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2008 14:12:12 -0500 Subject: Repost: "The Big One" In-Reply-To: <070920081820.20171.487501680002DA3F00004ECB2215555884040A0B0E0A9C0B020E0402070D019D@comcast.net> References: <070920081820.20171.487501680002DA3F00004ECB2215555884040A0B0E0A9C0B020E0402070D019D@comcast.net> Message-ID: <7d461dc80807091212y4768a8c3l33e2fb1414e04129@mail.gmail.com> I suspect that you take magic/occult much more seriously that Pynchon ever has. Magic for you is like AF for Glenn. GR is and ever has been Pynchon's "Big One." He might as well have stopped there. Everything since has been downhill. For me, of the last three, Mason & Dixon was the best. Still no GR. David Morris - Show quoted text - On Wed, Jul 9, 2008 at 1:20 PM, wrote: > Note the date. > > Didn't have a copy in my hands tll two weeks before release. > > Subject: The Big One > Date: Tue, 08 Aug 2006 > > Something I have yet to hear mentioned here: What if "Against the Day " turns out to be "The Big One", > the one that ties it all together? Here's my thoughts. The Occult elements of Pynchon always have been my focus. This just dawned on me: "Mason & Dixon" deals with the historical Mason/Dixon line between an age alchemical and an age scientific. Along with all those anachronisims and bad puns, there's tonne's of olde magicke and persuits alchemical. The historical range of "Against the Day" covers the early development of the Golden Dawn. This will tie this book much more tightly to the occult elements in "Gravity's Rainbow". "ATD" just might be "The Big One". From glenn_scheper at earthlink.net Wed Jul 9 14:20:40 2008 From: glenn_scheper at earthlink.net (Glenn Scheper) Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2008 12:20:40 -0700 (GMT-07:00) Subject: Microsoft has Quaternions. Message-ID: <12292068.1215631240355.JavaMail.root@elwamui-muscovy.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Seeking Sleep(), I stumbled upon Slerp(), quaternions. This URL is local to my Visual Studio .NET installation, but then I sought URLs, below, into the MSDN on the web: ms-help://MS.VSCC.v80/MS.MSDN.v80/MS.NETDEVFX.v20.en/cpref1/html/T_Microsoft_WindowsMobile_DirectX_Quaternion.htm Remarks Quaternions extend the concept of rotation in three dimensions to rotation in four dimensions. You can use quaternions to rotate an object about the (x, y, z) vector by an angle theta, where w = cos(theta/2). Quaternion operations are computationally more efficient than 4 × 4 matrix multiplications used for transformations and rotations. A quaternion also represents the most efficient rotation to interpolate between two orientations of an object. Quaternions add a fourth element to the [x, y, z] values that define a vector, resulting in arbitrary 4-D vectors. However, the following formulas illustrate how each element of a unit quaternion relates to an axis-angle rotation, where q represents a unit quaternion (x, y, z, w), axis is normalized, and theta is the desired counterclockwise (CCW) rotation around the axis. q.x = sin(theta/2) * axis.x q.y = sin(theta/2) * axis.y q.z = sin(theta/2) * axis.z q.w = cos(theta/2) The top MSDN query for quaternions: http://search.msdn.microsoft.com/Default.aspx?query=quaternion&brand=msdn&locale=en-us&refinement= Remarks Quaternions represent a rotation and are typically used for smooth interpolation between two angles and for avoiding the gimbal lock problem that can occur with euler angles. http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/microsoft.xna.framework.quaternion.slerp.aspx Quaternion.Slerp Method Interpolates between two quaternions, using spherical linear interpolation. From kelber at mindspring.com Wed Jul 9 14:46:20 2008 From: kelber at mindspring.com (kelber at mindspring.com) Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2008 15:46:20 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Repost: Message-ID: <1588826.1215632780583.JavaMail.root@elwamui-huard.atl.sa.earthlink.net> I agree with your assessments of the relative merits of GR, M&D and ATD, although I don't agree that Pynchon should have just stopped after GR. He's a writer, and writers write. I suspect that ATD isn't the end, although it's unlikely that GR will ever remotely be matched. What I'd personally like to see is a collection of personal essays in the vein of the intro to Slow Learner -- but I ain't holding my breath. When the ATDTDA finally limps to a close, I think it would be fun to have a general discussion about the flaws and merits (and there are both) of the work as a whole. Laura -----Original Message----- >From: David Morris >Sent: Jul 9, 2008 3:12 PM >To: P-list >Subject: Re: Repost: "The Big One" > >I suspect that you take magic/occult much more seriously that Pynchon >ever has. Magic for you is like AF for Glenn. > >GR is and ever has been Pynchon's "Big One." He might as well have >stopped there. Everything since has been downhill. For me, of the >last three, Mason & Dixon was the best. Still no GR. > >David Morris > >- Show quoted text - > >On Wed, Jul 9, 2008 at 1:20 PM, wrote: >> Note the date. >> >> Didn't have a copy in my hands tll two weeks before release. >> >> Subject: The Big One >> Date: Tue, 08 Aug 2006 >> >> Something I have yet to hear mentioned here: What if "Against the Day " turns out to be "The Big One", > >> the one that ties it all together? Here's my thoughts. The Occult elements of Pynchon always have been my focus. This just dawned on me: "Mason & Dixon" deals with the historical Mason/Dixon line between an age alchemical and an age scientific. Along with all those anachronisims and bad puns, there's tonne's of olde magicke and persuits alchemical. The historical range of "Against the Day" covers the early development of the Golden Dawn. This will tie this book much more tightly to the occult elements in "Gravity's Rainbow". "ATD" just might be "The Big One". From markekohut at yahoo.com Wed Jul 9 15:14:42 2008 From: markekohut at yahoo.com (Mark Kohut) Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2008 13:14:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Repost: In-Reply-To: <1588826.1215632780583.JavaMail.root@elwamui-huard.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <425762.43375.qm@web38403.mail.mud.yahoo.com> I'm also going to agree, for stepping stone purposes at least, with the relative merits of TRPs oeuvre. But, all the others are more worth reading than most writers' work.... AND, I would argue that he intended "Against the Day" to be, maybe, his big one..at least ANOTHER big one......his whole life's vision went into "Against the Day", I say. Where else do his hints of the whole damn 'meaning of life' found in other books, particularly GR, come to fruition?... Even V. And GR do not have the sweep and particularity of his whole vision of History, of "all that is the case'. --- On Wed, 7/9/08, kelber at mindspring.com wrote: > From: kelber at mindspring.com > Subject: Re: Repost: > To: pynchon-l at waste.org > Date: Wednesday, July 9, 2008, 3:46 PM > I agree with your assessments of the relative merits of GR, > M&D and ATD, although I don't agree that Pynchon > should have just stopped after GR. He's a writer, and > writers write. I suspect that ATD isn't the end, > although it's unlikely that GR will ever remotely be > matched. What I'd personally like to see is a > collection of personal essays in the vein of the intro to > Slow Learner -- but I ain't holding my breath. When > the ATDTDA finally limps to a close, I think it would be > fun to have a general discussion about the flaws and merits > (and there are both) of the work as a whole. > > Laura > > -----Original Message----- > >From: David Morris > >Sent: Jul 9, 2008 3:12 PM > >To: P-list > >Subject: Re: Repost: "The Big One" > > > >I suspect that you take magic/occult much more > seriously that Pynchon > >ever has. Magic for you is like AF for Glenn. > > > >GR is and ever has been Pynchon's "Big > One." He might as well have > >stopped there. Everything since has been downhill. > For me, of the > >last three, Mason & Dixon was the best. Still no > GR. > > > >David Morris > > > >- Show quoted text - > > > >On Wed, Jul 9, 2008 at 1:20 PM, > wrote: > >> Note the date. > >> > >> Didn't have a copy in my hands tll two weeks > before release. > >> > >> Subject: The Big One > >> Date: Tue, 08 Aug 2006 > >> > >> Something I have yet to hear mentioned here: What > if "Against the Day " turns out to be "The > Big One", > > > >> the one that ties it all together? Here's my > thoughts. The Occult elements of Pynchon always have been > my focus. This just dawned on me: "Mason & > Dixon" deals with the historical Mason/Dixon line > between an age alchemical and an age scientific. Along with > all those anachronisims and bad puns, there's > tonne's of olde magicke and persuits alchemical. The > historical range of "Against the Day" covers the > early development of the Golden Dawn. This will tie this > book much more tightly to the occult elements in > "Gravity's Rainbow". "ATD" just > might be "The Big One". From robinlandseadel at comcast.net Wed Jul 9 15:23:57 2008 From: robinlandseadel at comcast.net (robinlandseadel at comcast.net) Date: Wed, 09 Jul 2008 20:23:57 +0000 Subject: Repost: "The Big One" Message-ID: <070920082023.28268.48751E5D00062C1300006E6C2216538496040A0B0E0A9C0B020E0402070D019D@comcast.net> David Morris: I suspect that you take magic/occult much more seriously that Pynchon ever has. Magic for you is like AF for Glenn. GR is and ever has been Pynchon's "Big One." He might as well have stopped there. Everything since has been downhill. For me, of the last three, Mason & Dixon was the best. Still no GR. Be that as it may, the Theosophists, the Golden Dawn, a parody version of the O.T.O. [T.W.I.T.] and a parody version of Alistair Crowley [Nicholas Nookshaft] have major roles in Against the Day, not simply pop-ups like Beli Lugosi or Groucho Marx. Again,as I have pointed out before, the intersection of the Occult and the Encrypted is central to Pynchon's writing. Think of it for a moment. You read the intro to Slow Learner? Getting into the British history of spying [a Pynchon favorite] also leads us to the history of encryption and that leads us back to alchemists and others with antipodal relationships to dominant technological paradigms and Governmental control. It's all very well and good that you, like many others, see Gravity's Rainbow as Pynchon's greatest work. I think it's rather like saying the "Inferno" is Dante's greatest work and that "Purgatorio" and "Paradiso" are inferior sequels. GR is a vision of hell. M & D is the purgatory of our country's north/south divide [among others, including Mason's personal purgatory.] Against the Day has many reaching towards heaven and flying towards Grace. I happen to very much enjoy Vineland and Mason & Dixon and Against the Day. There's a cadre of self-appointed critics that want to maintain a theory that there is essentially no moral center in Pynchon's world. I do not agree with that viewpoint.. Those same critics maintain that Pynchon's pinnacle is the profoundly pessimistic Gravity's Rainbow*. And so it goes. As regards the "AF" reference, I don't see anything in Pynchon [save the worm ouroboros in GR] that points to that concept. Against the Day, Mason & Dixon, Vineland and Gravity's Rainbow are loaded with references to the Magickal and the Occult. If you can't see them then you have allowed yourself to be misdirected. The Ceremonial Magic themes in Gravity's Rainbow are expanded on in Against the Day. If you can't see it then fine. But it's there alright�scrying and and Norse Myths and tarot cards and crystals, pretty much the whole nine, if you catch my drift. Of course, other spiritual systems might not be thought of as part of the continuium of what Lenny Bruce called "Rosicrucians and other non-scheduled theologies." But the Theosophists embraced the Buddhists, it's a major plot-line in AtD, remember? Call me a crackpot all you like, but only after re-reading Weissman's Tarot. *"Oh see," sez Commando Connie, "it has to be alliterative. How about . . .discharge dumplings?" From scuffling at gmail.com Wed Jul 9 16:25:37 2008 From: scuffling at gmail.com (Henry) Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2008 17:25:37 -0400 Subject: Repost: "The Big One" In-Reply-To: <070920082023.28268.48751E5D00062C1300006E6C2216538496040A0B0E0A9C0B020E0402070D019D@comcast.net> References: <070920082023.28268.48751E5D00062C1300006E6C2216538496040A0B0E0A9C0B020E0402070D019D@comcast.net> Message-ID: <001f01c8e20a$55316530$ff942f90$@com> I once asked a little girl who had just seen "Bambi" for the first time what her favorite part was. She was a particularly bright child, but very young, and so without guile she told me "When Bambi's mother was shot." I understood immediately! It's the most exciting scene! That's why I like the GR=Inferno idea. For what it's worth, I still ENJOY GR the most. It's the same as why I like Kill Bill 1 better than 2; it rocks harder. Yeah, I'm that simple. Henry Mu Information, Media, and Technology Consultant http://my.barackobama.com/page/community/blog/henrymu -----Original Message----- From: robinlandseadel It's all very well and good that you, like many others, see Gravity's Rainbow as Pynchon's greatest work. I think it's rather like saying the "Inferno" is Dante's greatest work and that "Purgatorio" and "Paradiso" are inferior sequels. GR is a vision of hell. M & D is the purgatory of our country's north/south divide [among others, including Mason's personal purgatory.] Against the Day has many reaching towards heaven and flying towards Grace. I happen to very much enjoy Vineland and Mason & Dixon and Against the Day. There's a cadre of self-appointed critics that want to maintain a theory that there is essentially no moral center in Pynchon's world. I do not agree with that viewpoint.. Those same critics maintain that Pynchon's pinnacle is the profoundly pessimistic Gravity's Rainbow*. And so it goes. From malignd at aol.com Wed Jul 9 16:43:30 2008 From: malignd at aol.com (malignd at aol.com) Date: Wed, 09 Jul 2008 17:43:30 -0400 Subject: Repost: "The Big One" In-Reply-To: <070920082023.28268.48751E5D00062C1300006E6C2216538496040A0B0E0A9C0B020E0402070D019D@comcast.net> References: <070920082023.28268.48751E5D00062C1300006E6C2216538496040A0B0E0A9C0B020E0402070D019D@comcast.net> Message-ID: <8CAB023F64C2A87-1DD4-1A02@FWM-D38.sysops.aol.com> <> I don't know who makes up the "cadre" you describe and it's hard to tell in what you write whether they are incoherent or you are, but pessimism and morality are not mutually exclusive. GR is pessimistic, overall, but it is also very moralistic. I'd argue that if there is a problem with Pynchon's moralism, it is that it is, for me, anyway, not terribly sophisticated. He is fluid in sophisticated ideas, surely; but his moral judgements are black and white. His paranoid connection of one thing to another--e.g., nazism to IG Farben to Royal Dutch Shell to Ciba Geigy--indicts everything and everyone equally. There's guilt to go around, but Royal Dutch Shell is not the third reich. He is similarly unfailingly on the side of the underdog, as most times, am I. But the underdog or oppressed, freed of oppression, can ultimately make your skin crawl, e.g., Mugabe. Pynchon is not very subtle or insightful on such dynamics. -----Original Message----- From: robinlandseadel at comcast.net To: P-list Sent: Wed, 9 Jul 2008 4:23 pm Subject: Re: Repost: "The Big One" David Morris: I suspect that you take magic/occult much more seriously that Pynchon ever has. Magic for you is like AF for Glenn. GR is and ever has been Pynchon's "Big One." He might as well have stopped there. Everything since has been downhill. For me, of the last three, Mason & Dixon was the best. Still no GR. Be that as it may, the Theosophists, the Golden Dawn, a parody version of the O.T.O. [T.W.I.T.] and a parody version of Alistair Crowley [Nicholas Nookshaft] have major roles in Against the Day, not simply pop-ups like Beli Lugosi or Groucho Marx. Again,as I have pointed out before, the intersection of the Occult and the Encrypted is central to Pynchon's writing. Think of it for a moment. You read the intro to Slow Learner? Getting into the British history of spying [a Pynchon favorite] also leads us to the history of encryption and that leads us back to alchemists and others with antipodal relationships to dominant technological paradigms and Governmental control. It's all very well and good that you, like many others, see Gravity's Rainbow as Pynchon's greatest work. I think it's rather like saying the "Inferno" is Dante's greatest work and that "Purgatorio" and "Paradiso" are inferior sequels. GR is a vision of hell. M & D is the purgatory of our country's north/south divide [among others, including Mason's personal purgatory.] Against the Day has many reaching towards heaven and flying towards Grace. I happen to very much enjoy Vineland and Mason & Dixon and Against the Day. There's a cadre of self-appointed critics that want to maintain a theory that there is essentially no moral center in Pynchon's world. I do not agree with that viewpoint.. Those same critics maintain that Pynchon's pinnacle is the profoundly pessimistic Gravity's Rainbow*. And so it goes. As regards the "AF" reference, I don't see anything in Pynchon [save the worm ouroboros in GR] that points to that concept. Against the Day, Mason & Dixon, Vineland and Gravity's Rainbow are loaded with references to the Magickal and the Occult. If you can't see them then you have allowed yourself to be misdirected. The Ceremonial Magic themes in Gravity's Rainbow are expanded on in Against the Day. If you can't see it then fine. But it's there alright—scrying and and Norse Myths and tarot cards and crystals, pretty much the whole nine, if you catch my drift. Of course, other spiritual systems might not be thought of as part of the continuium of what Lenny Bruce called "Rosicrucians and other non-scheduled theologies." But the Theosophists embraced the Buddhists, it's a major plot-line in AtD, remember? Call me a crackpot all you like, but only after re-reading Weissman's Tarot. *"Oh see," sez Commando Connie, "it has to be alliterative. How about . . .discharge dumplings?" -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From robinlandseadel at comcast.net Wed Jul 9 17:20:21 2008 From: robinlandseadel at comcast.net (robinlandseadel at comcast.net) Date: Wed, 09 Jul 2008 22:20:21 +0000 Subject: Repost: "The Big One" Message-ID: <070920082220.5029.487539A50000B0C3000013A52216566276040A0B0E0A9C0B020E0402070D019D@comcast.net> <> malignd: I don't know who makes up the "cadre" you describe and it's hard to tell in what you write whether they are incoherent or you are, . . . I've attempted to read a number of "Postmodern" essays on Pynchon full of gobbledity-goop. Whether by design or accident, they were just about as bad as it gets. I realize that cohesion and clarity are not my long suits, I'll cop to that. I'd say that you are one of the people I'd include in the set of those most dismissive of Pynchon's work after Gravity's Rainbow. . . . .but pessimism and morality are not mutually exclusive. GR is pessimistic, overall, but it is also very moralistic. I'd argue that if there is a problem with Pynchon's moralism, it is that it is, for me, anyway, not terribly sophisticated. He is fluid in sophisticated ideas, surely; but his moral judgements are black and white. His paranoid connection of one thing to another--e.g., nazism to IG Farben to Royal Dutch Shell to Ciba Geigy--indicts everything and everyone equally. There's guilt to go around, but Royal Dutch Shell is not the third reich. . . . I would disagree with you on this particular point and would point to Weissmann's tarot as the narrator's true feelings on the subject. I simply cannot see an author documenting so much anarchist history without some devotion to the cause. Certain themes pop up in all of the man's books, over and over. They skew hard left. Maybe that's the part you don't like. . . . .He is similarly unfailingly on the side of the underdog, as most times, am I. But the underdog or oppressed, freed of oppression, � can ultimately make your skin crawl, e.g., Mugabe. Pynchon is not very subtle or insightful on such dynamics. Well, he's not subtle, I'll grant you that. <> ". . . .(what, a dialectical Tarot? Yes indeedyfoax! A-and if you don't think there are Marxist-Leninist magicians around, well you better think again!). . . ." From robinlandseadel at comcast.net Wed Jul 9 18:03:57 2008 From: robinlandseadel at comcast.net (robinlandseadel at comcast.net) Date: Wed, 09 Jul 2008 23:03:57 +0000 Subject: Repost: "The Big One" Message-ID: <070920082303.5415.487543DD0005053B000015272216566276040A0B0E0A9C0B020E0402070D019D@comcast.net> Henry : I once asked a little girl who had just seen "Bambi" for the first time what her favorite part was. She was a particularly bright child, but very young, and so without guile she told me "When Bambi's mother was shot." I understood immediately! It's the most exciting scene! The one that stuck in my my was that baby skunk with the decidedly bent line reading of: "You can call me Flower if you want to!" Very Cyprian, if you ask me. Oh yes, I was about four or so, kept repeating the line over and over. Must have drove the parents insane. Anarchists [there's a whole new breed of them, these days] and Steampunk enthusiasts seem to be the most pleased with Against the Day. I suspect the book will pull in a different sort of reader than the people who read Gravity's Rainbow when it first emerged. From dpayne1912 at hotmail.com Wed Jul 9 23:09:31 2008 From: dpayne1912 at hotmail.com (David Payne) Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2008 04:09:31 +0000 Subject: Repost: "The Big One" In-Reply-To: <070920082220.5029.487539A50000B0C3000013A52216566276040A0B0E0A9C0B020E0402070D019D@comcast.net> References: <070920082220.5029.487539A50000B0C3000013A52216566276040A0B0E0A9C0B020E0402070D019D@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 9 Jul 2008 (22:20:21 +0000), Robin (robinlandseadel at comcast.net) wrote: >[quoting Malignd] . . . .but pessimism and morality are not mutually exclusive. GR is > pessimistic, overall, but it is also very moralistic. I'd argue that > if there is a problem with Pynchon's moralism, it is that it is, for > me, anyway, not terribly sophisticated. He is fluid in sophisticated > ideas, surely; but his moral judgements are black and white. > His paranoid connection of one thing to another--e.g., nazism to > IG Farben to Royal Dutch Shell to Ciba Geigy--indicts everything > and everyone equally. There's guilt to go around, but Royal Dutch > Shell is not the third reich. . . .[end of quoting Malignd] > > I would disagree with you on this particular point and would point to > Weissmann's tarot as the narrator's true feelings on the subject. > I simply cannot see an author documenting so much anarchist > history without some devotion to the cause. Certain themes pop > up in all of the man's books, over and over. They skew hard left. > Maybe that's the part you don't like. Hold on -- can you expound on what you mean by "[I] would point to Weissmann's tarot as the narrator's true feelings on the subject"? Because it seems to me that the Pynchon's novels *are* pretty much populated by good guys and bad guys, the right choice and the wrong choice. Malignd said it better than me: "He is fluid in sophisticated ideas, surely; but his moral judgements are black and white." I'd argue that M&D presents a more nuanced judgement on the morality of its characters than the other novels, but I think that the point is well made: Pynchon's characters inhabit a morally flat universe. Hence, perhaps, the common criticism that his characters are flat. What exactly is the disagreement here? _________________________________________________________________ Making the world a better place one message at a time. http://www.imtalkathon.com/?source=EML_WLH_Talkathon_BetterPlace From dpayne1912 at hotmail.com Wed Jul 9 23:18:58 2008 From: dpayne1912 at hotmail.com (David Payne) Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2008 04:18:58 +0000 Subject: The heavenly city of the eighteenth century philosophers Message-ID: "The heavenly city of the eighteenth century philosophers" by Carl L. Beker I think I learned of this book from this list-serve? Anyhow, just finished reading it, and I highly recommend it. Certainly plays to many Pynchonian themes (or visa-versa). Quoted from Amazon: "Here a distinguished American historian challenges the belief that the eighteenth century was essentially modern in its temper. In crystalline prose Carl Becker demonstrates that the period commonly described as the Age of Reason was, in fact, very far from that; that Voltaire, Hume, Diderot, and Locke were living in a medieval world, and that these philosophers "demolished the Heavenly City of St. Augustine only to rebuild it with more up-to-date materials." In a new foreword, Johnson Kent Wright looks at the book's continuing relevance within the context of current discussion about the Enlightenment." This quote fails to mention: The Surprise Ending! Seriously.... _________________________________________________________________ Use video conversation to talk face-to-face with Windows Live Messenger. http://www.windowslive.com/messenger/connect_your_way.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_Refresh_messenger_video_072008 From isread at btinternet.com Thu Jul 10 00:08:58 2008 From: isread at btinternet.com (Paul Nightingale) Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2008 06:08:58 +0100 Subject: Atdtda28: Round and round on an interesting topic, 782 Message-ID: <000601c8e24b$0fb5dae0$2f2190a0$@com> As the narrative returns to Kit and Prance, "going round and round as usual", it returns also to the Event, although 'it' won't be named as such. The narrative, as opposed to characters within the narrative, finally attempts representation: one sentence listing those objects or features that might be seen--by Kit/Prance--as red, another insisting that the wind, or sound itself--phenomena pertaining to other senses--might also be "red as a living heart". Where Padzhitnoff fears "collective amnesia" (781), Kit/Prance immediately relate what has happened to what they can recall, "the great roaring as they passed through the Prophet's Gate" (782). They are of course among those "eyewitnesses living below" (781); if comprehension here is rendered phenomenologically, it is in contrast to preceding sections. Moreover, the explosion, the "heavenwide blast" with which the chapter opens (779), has now become "the voice of a world announcing that it would never go back to what it had been" (782). This invokes the impossibility of representation, a rendering of that which is now absent; and also offers a narrative turning point that might remind us of the fast-forward frequently employed to position a character viewing 'now' as 'the past'. Kit does look ahead in advocating agency, or movement; he wants to "see if there's anything we can do". Cf. Padzhitnoff's concern that the Bol'shaia Ingra has done something that cannot be recalled (781). Prance, however, denies any role for himself, passing judgement ("This is not political", 782) in the way the Bol'shaia Ingra's crew had previously (780-782). At the start of the section Kit and Prance discuss, repetitively, "which one [is] less able to clean up after himself" (782), the possibility of returning to an earlier state; subsequently there is the impossibility of the world "go[ing] back to what it had been"; and then there is Prance's denial that what has happened is any part of 'his' unchanging world. From markekohut at yahoo.com Thu Jul 10 05:11:10 2008 From: markekohut at yahoo.com (Mark Kohut) Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2008 03:11:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Repost: "The Big One" In-Reply-To: <070920082220.5029.487539A50000B0C3000013A52216566276040A0B0E0A9C0B020E0402070D019D@comcast.net> Message-ID: <371270.7040.qm@web38404.mail.mud.yahoo.com> I suggest that the moral vision, fully seen, of Against the Day, as of Mason & Dixon, maybe. is as subtle as anyone's and more subtle than almost everyone's. And GR's IS as subtle as Dante's.... --- On Wed, 7/9/08, robinlandseadel at comcast.net wrote: > From: robinlandseadel at comcast.net > Subject: Re: Repost: "The Big One" > To: "P-list" > Date: Wednesday, July 9, 2008, 6:20 PM > < want to maintain > a theory that there is essentially no moral center in > Pynchon's > world. I do not agree with that viewpoint.. Those > same critics > maintain that Pynchon's pinnacle is the profoundly > pessimistic > Gravity's Rainbow*. And so it goes.>> > > malignd: > I don't know who makes up the "cadre" > you describe and it's hard > to tell in what you write whether they are incoherent > or you are, . . . > > I've attempted to read a number of > "Postmodern" essays on Pynchon full of > gobbledity-goop. Whether by design or accident, they were > just about as bad > as it gets. I realize that cohesion and clarity are not my > long suits, I'll > cop to that. I'd say that you are one of the people > I'd include in the set > of those most dismissive of Pynchon's work after > Gravity's Rainbow. > > . . . .but pessimism and morality are not mutually > exclusive. GR is > pessimistic, overall, but it is also very moralistic. > I'd argue that > if there is a problem with Pynchon's moralism, it > is that it is, for > me, anyway, not terribly sophisticated. He is fluid > in sophisticated > ideas, surely; but his moral judgements are black and > white. > His paranoid connection of one thing to another--e.g., > nazism to > IG Farben to Royal Dutch Shell to Ciba Geigy--indicts > everything > and everyone equally. There's guilt to go around, > but Royal Dutch > Shell is not the third reich. . . . > > I would disagree with you on this particular point and > would point to > Weissmann's tarot as the narrator's true feelings > on the subject. > I simply cannot see an author documenting so much anarchist > > history without some devotion to the cause. Certain themes > pop > up in all of the man's books, over and over. They skew > hard left. > Maybe that's the part you don't like. > > . . . .He is similarly unfailingly on the side of the > underdog, as most > times, am I. But the underdog or oppressed, freed of > oppression, – > can ultimately make your skin crawl, e.g., Mugabe. > Pynchon is > not very subtle or insightful on such dynamics. > > Well, he's not subtle, I'll grant you that. > > < after re-reading > Weissman's Tarot.>> > > ". . . .(what, a dialectical Tarot? Yes > indeedyfoax! A-and if you > don't think there are Marxist-Leninist magicians > around, well > you better think again!). . . ." From markekohut at yahoo.com Thu Jul 10 05:17:47 2008 From: markekohut at yahoo.com (Mark Kohut) Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2008 03:17:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ATDTDA (38)Pink Tabs, cover In-Reply-To: <070920081332.21202.4874BDD7000A3668000052D22216566276040A0B0E0A9C0B020E0402070D019D@comcast.net> Message-ID: <534495.8283.qm@web38404.mail.mud.yahoo.com> brillaint on the cover, I think. --- On Wed, 7/9/08, robinlandseadel at comcast.net wrote: > From: robinlandseadel at comcast.net > Subject: ATDTDA (38)Pink Tabs, cover > To: "P-list" > Date: Wednesday, July 9, 2008, 9:32 AM > In the Craft, we pray to an imminent goddess; she permeates > all walks of life, within and without us. We do > not just pray to > her "above" but also > "within." When patriarchal religions talk > about the "grace" that comes to those > who pray, they are > talking about the same things we did thousands of > years > before them. > > Cultivate your deeper mind and be well. > > Zsuzsanna Budapest. "The Holy Book of > Women's Mysteries" > > So I start the flashbacks before the trip is quite over. > > I finally figured out the Pink Tabs—those passages that > reminded > me of The Crying of Lot 49 and Tris/Trystero. It's the > intersection of the > Occult and the Encrypted, some of the backstory of heretics > forced to > encrypt their messages in order to save their skins. > > Let's start with the cover, shall we? The book's > title is seen through a > hunk of clear, optical grade Calcite. The topmost > layer—the present— > has some sort of stamp of the Tibetian Chamber of Commerce. > We see > the three different fonts representing the layers of time > in three different > styles of typeface. Pynchon's novels always have > Un-named > characters driving the book's plots, both literary > plots and and the plots > of crimes being committed. Somehow, murmuring in the > background of > Gravity's Rainbow I sense Crowley. Lurking in the > background of > Against the Day is Einstein. The overarching theme of the > book is light > itself and Against the Day's cover [the first printing] > encrypts a paradox > or two—if light is both a wave and a particle, Iceland > Spar demonstrates > one particle becoming two. Pynchon works from the notion > that > those two particles are now running along different time > axes. And there > you are—different time axes, the notion that there are > other presents, > other futures we may or may not be living in. > > One of those other futures is Shambhala, earthly paradise. > > That stamp on the cover of Against the Day is bilocated. > > The illustration on the stamp is from about the time of the > Tungusga > Event, but the inscription of "Tibetan Chamber of > Commerce" is > from the present. The significance of that stamp will > become quite > apparent later, in August, when we are on the Rue du > Départ: > > http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0091874/ > > http://www.last.fm/music/Anouar+Brahem/_/Rue+du+départ > > http://www.hotel-paris-waldorf.com/hotel-waldorf-english/location.html > > http://outofthewoodsnow.blogspot.com/2008/06/rue-du-dpart.html From robinlandseadel at comcast.net Thu Jul 10 06:23:01 2008 From: robinlandseadel at comcast.net (robinlandseadel at comcast.net) Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2008 11:23:01 +0000 Subject: Repost: "The Big One" Message-ID: <071020081123.3501.4875F115000B533D00000DAD2216557996040A0B0E0A9C0B020E0402070D019D@comcast.net> David Payne: Hold on -- can you expound on what you mean by "[I] would point to Weissmann's tarot as the narrator's true feelings on the subject"? I first read Gravity's Rainbow a little over 25 years ago while living on the Novato site of the California Renaissance Faire. Tarot card readers have long been in abundance at the Renaissance Faires, but until reading Weissman's Tarot card reading in Gravity's Rainbow, I did not take the Tarot seriously. It should be noted that Pynchon's reading of the cards is a Kabbalistic reading. I could cite chapter and verse, but anyone trying to understand the passage will need to read all of it in context. Steven C. Weisenburger's comments in "A Gravity's Rainbow Companion" are particularly helpful. Weissman's tarot starts on page 746 of the Viking edition, 871 of the mass-market Bantam edition and 761 of the later Penguin Classics edition. I got both Malign's and David Morris' thoughts in my head when speaking about the narrator's true feelings Please to note that I did not say the author's feelings, but the narrator's�can't assume they're identical, can we? David's thoughts are that I'm "projecting a world" and that Magick and the occult are my bailiwicks, not the author's. But this passage in particular demonstrates a knowledge of the tarot and a sophistication of explication rarely found in books on the subject. Pynchon's reading is suffused with an awareness of the subtler meanings of the cards. Pynchon knows more about the cards, ceremonial magic and kabbahlla then I ever will. And I'm into it, in no small part because of the awareness and sophistication of this demonstration of a tarot card reading. On top of that, other kabbalistic interpretations are posted in many places in Gravity's Rainbow and they all seem to climax in this sequence. Malign's point: "There's guilt to go around, but Royal Dutch Shell is not the third reich. . . ." inverts Pynchon's meaning. The author, demonstrates [in this card reading] that this Nazi will pretty much rule via the "New World Order." Weissman will find his way to the offices of rulers in the new world. http://content.answers.com/main/content/wp/en-commons/thumb/f/f5/250px-Wernher_von_Braun(2).jpg "If you're wondering where he's gone, look among the successful academics. the Presidential advisers, the token intellectuals who sit on boards of directors. He is almost surely there. Look high, not low. His future card, the card of what will come, is The World." GR, P764/V749/B874 As far as Pynchon's concerned, Shell's just as much a Nazi as the rest of 'em. From robinlandseadel at comcast.net Thu Jul 10 06:43:18 2008 From: robinlandseadel at comcast.net (robinlandseadel at comcast.net) Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2008 11:43:18 +0000 Subject: Repost: "The Big One" Message-ID: <071020081143.6554.4875F5D6000B71A00000199A2216557996040A0B0E0A9C0B020E0402070D019D@comcast.net> . . . .and I apologize for the numerous errors that slithered into my previous post. What can I say, it's 4:30 in the morning in the center of a heat wave. From robinlandseadel at comcast.net Thu Jul 10 07:57:53 2008 From: robinlandseadel at comcast.net (robinlandseadel at comcast.net) Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2008 12:57:53 +0000 Subject: ATDTDA (38) Pink Tabs, 4, 18, 78, 84 Message-ID: <071020081257.23407.48760751000DBB6400005B6F2216549976040A0B0E0A9C0B020E0402070D019D@comcast.net> The flashbacks continue. . . 4: Miles trips over the picnic basket: "Perhaps its familiarity," Randolph suggested plainitivly, "rendered it temporarily invisible to you." Miles will prove to be a bit "Potteresque", comfortable in conversation with Pugnax and well in touch with his intuitive side. 18: Penny Black, an obvious philatilic reference. Remember that stamps play a similar role in Against the Day as they do in Crying of Lot 49. 78: "Almost makes you think, if there's a Philosopher's Stone, there might not also be�" A Sorcerer's Stone? An Idiot's Stone? Voledemort? Ritual reluctance at its finest, the mad bomber and the photographer talkin' alchemical shop, rendering magical themes explicit by attempting to conceal their words. 84: "Look. These aren't real stamps here," Veikko said. They are the sorts of artifacts that Pierce Inverarity collected, the fake postage of underground mail systems, the communication links for anarchists. In CoL49, Oedipa is perfectly middle-class and insulated. She is an outsider looking in via a collection of Cinderellas and forgeries. Veikko and Webb are insiders, looking to get out. And note that "Minneskort"�memory card�reference. When you Traverse the Web, you blow up the old stories, the generally accepted explanations. Traversing the Webb enables exposure of old stories on a constant basis, they cannot be shaken off any longer: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2004/sep/25/usa.secondworldwar From robinlandseadel at comcast.net Thu Jul 10 08:16:45 2008 From: robinlandseadel at comcast.net (robinlandseadel at comcast.net) Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2008 13:16:45 +0000 Subject: ATDTDA: (35) 978, 979, 1005 pink tabs Message-ID: <071020081316.14146.48760BBD00025807000037422216549976040A0B0E0A9C0B020E0402070D019D@comcast.net> "Again with this Crying of of 49 horseshit? You need to see a shrink real bad!" Yet another unexpressed term, related to CoL 49 and building out of an embarrassing climax and horrible pun on pages 978/979�a painfully obvious reference to CoL 49. "You want to go after Vibe? and me take Foley? well you have my blessin' Ewb, and no hard feelins', no matter what people say afterwards." "How's that, Frank?" "Oh, you know, psychological talk and all that. . . ." The unexpressed term is "Oedipus Complex." And remember how deep Pynchon goes with references to the myths and legends of the Ancient Greeks with his Orphic passage into WWI. From robinlandseadel at comcast.net Thu Jul 10 08:25:49 2008 From: robinlandseadel at comcast.net (robinlandseadel at comcast.net) Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2008 13:25:49 +0000 Subject: ATDTDA (38) Pink Tabs 10791083 Message-ID: <071020081325.9801.48760DDD000C56FC000026492216549976040A0B0E0A9C0B020E0402070D019D@comcast.net> I'm not posting anything from the text here. But if you are following my thoughts please read this passage. I'm recursing here but stamps do have an extraordinary importance in the penultimate scenes of Against the Day. From scuffling at gmail.com Thu Jul 10 08:45:37 2008 From: scuffling at gmail.com (Henry) Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2008 09:45:37 -0400 Subject: ATDTDA (38)Pink Tabs, cover In-Reply-To: <534495.8283.qm@web38404.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <070920081332.21202.4874BDD7000A3668000052D22216566276040A0B0E0A9C0B020E0402070D019D@comcast.net> <534495.8283.qm@web38404.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <000a01c8e293$3c6dd540$b5497fc0$@com> I agree! Nice one, Robin (and pay no attention to that troll!) Henry Mu Information, Media, and Technology Consultant http://my.barackobama.com/page/community/blog/henrymu -----Original Message----- From: Mark Kohut brillaint on the cover, I think. --- On Wed, 7/9/08, robinlandseadel at comcast.net Let's start with the cover, shall we? The book's title is seen through a hunk of clear, optical grade Calcite. The topmost layer—the present— has some sort of stamp of the Tibetian Chamber of Commerce. We see the three different fonts representing the layers of time in three different styles of typeface. The overarching theme of the book is light itself and Against the Day's cover [the first printing] encrypts a paradox or two—if light is both a wave and a particle, Iceland Spar demonstrates one particle becoming two. Pynchon works from the notion that those two particles are now running along different time axes. And there you are—different time axes, the notion that there are other presents, other futures we may or may not be living in. One of those other futures is Shambhala, earthly paradise. That stamp on the cover of Against the Day is bilocated. The illustration on the stamp is from about the time of the Tungusga Event, but the inscription of "Tibetan Chamber of Commerce" is from the present. The significance of that stamp will become quite apparent later, in August, when we are on the Rue du Départ: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0091874/ References: <071020081257.23407.48760751000DBB6400005B6F2216549976040A0B0E0A9C0B020E0402070D019D@comcast.net> Message-ID: <000c01c8e294$ba0c8900$2e259b00$@com> A-and "Ceci n'est pas une pipe." Stamps are symbols, i.e. never really real. Henry Mu Information, Media, and Technology Consultant http://www.urdomain.us/scuffling.htm -----Original Message----- From: robinlandseadel The flashbacks continue. . . 84: "Look. These aren't real stamps here," Veikko said. They are the sorts of artifacts that Pierce Inverarity collected, the fake postage of underground mail systems, the communication links for anarchists. In CoL49, Oedipa is perfectly middle-class and insulated. She is an outsider looking in via a collection of Cinderellas and forgeries. From robinlandseadel at comcast.net Thu Jul 10 09:50:16 2008 From: robinlandseadel at comcast.net (robinlandseadel at comcast.net) Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2008 14:50:16 +0000 Subject: ATDTDA (38) Rue du depart (1986) Message-ID: <071020081450.29096.487621A8000DA192000071A82215568884040A0B0E0A9C0B020E0402070D019D@comcast.net> Review Summary The protagonists in this drama are caught in the sleaze of the lower echelons of Paris life and are trying to get out. Clara (Ann-Gisel Glass) arrives in the underbelly of the city after escaping a dysfunctional middle-class family, and moves in with Mimi (Christine Boisson), a prostitute. Clara also meets Paul (Francois Cluzet) an escaped convict, and a romantic relationship starts to simmer. Only two major hurdles stand in their way of escaping to a better life in another city. Paul is determined to avenge the death of his father which might make it easier for the police to find him, and Mimi's pimp is equally determined to coerce Clara into a life of prostitution. ~ Eleanor Mannikka, All Movie Guide http://movies.nytimes.com/movie/121052/Rue-du-depart/overview From robinlandseadel at comcast.net Thu Jul 10 09:57:38 2008 From: robinlandseadel at comcast.net (robinlandseadel at comcast.net) Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2008 14:57:38 +0000 Subject: ATDTDA (38) 26 Rue du depart (1921) Message-ID: <071020081457.23976.48762362000CE8A300005DA82215568884040A0B0E0A9C0B020E0402070D019D@comcast.net> This is the modern world. . . . 1919 Returning to Paris, Mondrian lived first on the top floor of at 5 Rue du Coulmier, then settled again at his old address of 26 Rue du D�part and, in March 1936 moved to at 278 Boulevard Raspail. http://www.snap-dragon.com/mondrian_biography.htm http://tinyurl.com/6jrw2s From paul.mackin at verizon.net Thu Jul 10 09:01:37 2008 From: paul.mackin at verizon.net (Paul Mackin) Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2008 10:01:37 -0400 Subject: Repost: "The Big One" In-Reply-To: <071020081123.3501.4875F115000B533D00000DAD2216557996040A0B0E0A9C0B020E0402070D019D@comcast.net> References: <071020081123.3501.4875F115000B533D00000DAD2216557996040A0B0E0A9C0B020E0402070D019D@comcast.net> Message-ID: <48761641.7050207@verizon.net> robinlandseadel at comcast.net wrote: > > "There's guilt to go around, but Royal Dutch Shell is not the third reich. . . ." > > inverts Pynchon's meaning. The author, demonstrates [in this card > reading] that this Nazi will pretty much rule via the "New World Order." > Weissman will find his way to the offices of rulers in the new world. > > http://content.answers.com/main/content/wp/en-commons/thumb/f/f5/250px-Wernher_von_Braun(2).jpg > > "If you're wondering where he's gone, look among the successful > academics. the Presidential advisers, the token intellectuals who > sit on boards of directors. He is almost surely there. Look high, > not low. > His future card, the card of what will come, is The World." > GR, P764/V749/B874 > > As far as Pynchon's concerned, Shell's just as much a Nazi as the rest of 'em. > > > Then Pynchon's sense of moral equivalency would be out of whack. Which was one of malignd's points. In fairness to Pynchon, however, we should be careful not to over interpret the passage. First off, Weissmann was always more into Transcendence than into Nazi preoccupations with race purification and Europe domination. Secondly, saying that former Nazis (Whom W undoubted was one of) would find important roles in the post-war corporate world is not necessarily saying that the latter is full-fledgedly Nazi. Wisely or unwisely bright people of questionable backgrounds often tend to be allowed to float to the top. But the "world" the new Weissmann will be at the top of (near top of) is the World of Business, not the old Weissmann's world of romantic dreams or the Holocautic World of the Nazis. The passage is a wonderful one but we must not forget that creative writers often need to make things sound more sinister than in reality they are. From robinlandseadel at comcast.net Thu Jul 10 10:16:27 2008 From: robinlandseadel at comcast.net (robinlandseadel at comcast.net) Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2008 15:16:27 +0000 Subject: Repost: "The Big One" Message-ID: <071020081516.25220.487627CB000B60B0000062842215568884040A0B0E0A9C0B020E0402070D019D@comcast.net> Paul Mackin: . . . .Secondly, saying that former Nazis (Whom W undoubted was one of) would find important roles in the post-war corporate world is not necessarily saying that the latter is full-fledgedly Nazi. . . . Yet the far left would make that connection. You might not, but the Abbie Hoffmans of the world did and continue to do so. And Against the Day is filled with favorable portraits of the Abbie Hoffmans of the Gilded Age. And it's pretty obvious that Pynchon used material from "Murdered by Capitalism" by John Ross of Trinidad, CA, one of the Abbie Hoffmans of our time: http://tinyurl.com/5hulsd From robinlandseadel at comcast.net Thu Jul 10 10:21:57 2008 From: robinlandseadel at comcast.net (robinlandseadel at comcast.net) Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2008 15:21:57 +0000 Subject: Repost: "The Big One" Message-ID: <071020081521.13593.48762915000BB4F1000035192215568884040A0B0E0A9C0B020E0402070D019D@comcast.net> Paul Mackin: The passage is a wonderful one but we must not forget that creative writers often need to make things sound more sinister than in reality they are. Can't get much more sinister in a Tarot reading than being crossed by a Tower card. It means your whole world is about to fly apart. If Pynchon is making this passage as sinister as possible than maybe he believes that Weissman's passage into the Council on Foriegn Affairs or NASA is sinister? There's always surface readings folks, take the guy at his word. . . . From fqmorris at gmail.com Thu Jul 10 10:22:50 2008 From: fqmorris at gmail.com (David Morris) Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2008 10:22:50 -0500 Subject: NP - Chainsaw Maid Message-ID: <7d461dc80807100822j1d6084a6u72a85701aa81d90f@mail.gmail.com> http://www.ebaumsworld.com/video/watch/727719/ Clatmation Zombie Gore From robinlandseadel at comcast.net Thu Jul 10 10:52:34 2008 From: robinlandseadel at comcast.net (robinlandseadel at comcast.net) Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2008 15:52:34 +0000 Subject: ATDTDA (38) 26 Rue du depart "seduced into the Futurist nosedive." Message-ID: <071020081552.19717.4876304200043D5E00004D052215568884040A0B0E0A9C0B020E0402070D019D@comcast.net> I'm thinking of the visual similarities of Futurism [paintings] and the work of Mondrian. But following that thread---cubism, Mondrian's art, the paintings of the Futurists�like the cover of the paperback edition of Against the Day: http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/41fafkIky5L._SS500_.jpg . . . ."seduced into the Futurist nosedive." takes on different meanings when perceived as a literary movement that had a big influence on James Joyce: Italian Futurism was initially a literary movement created by Filippo Tommaso Marinetti in 1909 with the manifesto Le Futurisme [1]. The intentions of this manifesto was a wake-up call to Marinetti's countrymen to make them aware that they had been 'wearing second-hand clothes for too long.' It was time for them to create a new art for themselves, forged out of the beauty of speed and a glorification of war: Art, in fact, can be nothing but violence, new art for themselves, forged out of the beauty of speed and a cruelty, and injustice. new art for themselves, forged out of the beauty of speed and a That the manifesto was first written in French and published in the Parisian newspaper Le Figaro before any of the new Futurist art existed, typified Marinetti's understanding of the power of the media to work for him and disseminate his ideas. . . . . . . .Performances of Futurist poetry were meant to outrage and wake up an audience, in a time when poetry had largely become a plaything of the idle rich. Poetry was often presented in the late nineteenth century cultured drawing rooms with wine, caviar, and a bought romantic poet with slicked-back hair: doing his best to capture the poetic affectations of the times and pretending to be an Oscar Wilde clone, complete with a dead lily. The Futurists on the other hand, acting as if they were the Vikings or Hell's Angels of Art, were intent in trashing such cultivated and stylized new art for themselves, forged out of the beauty of speed and a aesthetics completely. Their performances often ended in riots new art for themselves, forged out of the beauty of speed and a with several members of the audience in the hospital and several new art for themselves, forged out of the beauty of speed and a Futurists ending up in jail. http://www.wendtroot.com/spoetry/folder6/ng63.html Futurism (1909-1944) was perhaps the first movement in the history of art to be engineered and managed like a business. Since its beginning, Futurism was very close to the world of advertising and, like a business, promoted its product to a wide audience. For this reason, Futurism introduced the use of the manifesto as a public means to advertise its artistic philosophy, and also as a polemic weapon against the academic and conservative world. The poet F.T. Marinetti, founder of the movement, wrote in his first manifesto of February 1909, "Up to now, literature has exalted a pensive immobility, ecstasy, and sleep. We intend to exalt aggressive action, a feverish insomnia, the racer's stride, the mortal leap, the punch and the slap. We affirm that the world's magnificence has been enriched by a new beauty: the beauty of speed. . . We will destroy the museums, libraries, academies of every kind, will fight moralism, feminism, every opportunistic or utilitarian cowardice." Futurism, as opposed to Cubism, an essentially visual movement, found its roots in poetry and in a whole renovation of language, and featured the concept of the New Typography. Since 1905, Marinetti had promoted from the pages of his magazine Poesia (Poetry) the idea of verso libero (free-verse), which was intended to break the uniformity of syntax of the literature of the past. Then, just after new art for themselves, forged out of the beauty of speed and a the launch of the Futurist movement, verso libero evolved into the new art for themselves, forged out of the beauty of speed and a parole in libert� (words-in-freedom), the purpose and methodology new art for themselves, forged out of the beauty of speed and a of which were outlined in a manifesto dated 1913 and bearing the new art for themselves, forged out of the beauty of speed and a long title Destruction of Syntax/Imagination without Strings/Words new art for themselves, forged out of the beauty of speed and a -in-Freedom. In this manifesto Marinetti stated: "Futurism is grounded in the complete renewal of human sensibility that has generated our pictorial dynamism, our antigraceful music in its free, irregular rhythms, our noise-art and our new art for themselves, forged out of the beauty of speed and a words-in-freedom . . . . By the imagination without strings I mean the absolute freedom of images or analogies, expressed with unhampered words and with no connecting strings of syntax and with no punctuation." http://colophon.com/gallery/futurism/ Orpheus Puts Down Harp LOS ANGELES (PNS)�Richard M. Zhlubb, night manager of the Orpheus Theater on Melrose. . . . From richard.romeo at gmail.com Thu Jul 10 13:57:48 2008 From: richard.romeo at gmail.com (rich) Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2008 14:57:48 -0400 Subject: Larry McMurtry Message-ID: <830c13f40807101157t3e0016dbq388d9d1933c32581@mail.gmail.com> In LM's latest book titled "Books" he notes that in the mid-60s, Pynchon was broke and living in Houston and that he may have tried to get Pynchon a job--he was teaching at Rice at the time. pynchon declined apparently--he didn't wanna work in academia. LM also notes that there was a rumor that Pynchon while writing V. was reading exclusively the N section of the dictionary or encyclopedia--go figure rich From malignd at aol.com Thu Jul 10 14:54:29 2008 From: malignd at aol.com (malignd at aol.com) Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2008 15:54:29 -0400 Subject: Repost: "The Big One" In-Reply-To: <071020081123.3501.4875F115000B533D00000DAD2216557996040A0B0E0A9C0B020E0402070D019D@comcast.net> References: <071020081123.3501.4875F115000B533D00000DAD2216557996040A0B0E0A9C0B020E0402070D019D@comcast.net> Message-ID: <8CAB0DDE5B77A3C-13E8-809@MBLK-M37.sysops.aol.com> As far as Pynchon's concerned, Shell's just as much a Nazi as the rest of 'em. Which was, or course, my point:  that that is Pynchon's moral universe. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From isread at btinternet.com Fri Jul 11 01:21:01 2008 From: isread at btinternet.com (Paul Nightingale) Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2008 07:21:01 +0100 Subject: Atdtda28: Somewhere on the other side of the world, 782-783 Message-ID: <000601c8e31e$4a7fc270$df7f4750$@com> Two paragraphs, one in which the narrative sides with Kit, the other featuring Prance's "religious mania", a diatribe that is unanswered by the silent Kit. If Prance's speech is aimed at Kit, perhaps a continuation of the earlier "going round and round as usual", it seems Kit has turned his back on such local interaction; instead he favours silent contemplation of global interaction (and one might think of Latour's dismissal of any distinction between 'local' and 'global'). Consciousness is not confined to what one can see: "critters he was destined never to see ..." etc (another example of the fast-forward here). However, Prance's "mania" constructs another "connected set". He describes the return of some kind of malevolent agency ("... whatever force decides to come in ..." etc, or "... had chosen to reenter the finite world", 783). If Kit invokes 'continuity', then, Prance has opted for 'change', each borrowing from mathematical discourse to make the point. At the same time, Prance is rather more open to speculation. For Kit, "forms of life [are] a connected set" (782); whereas Prance describes the consequences of one possible course of events, ie "[a]s if something ..." etc (782-783). From isread at btinternet.com Fri Jul 11 01:26:12 2008 From: isread at btinternet.com (Paul Nightingale) Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2008 07:26:12 +0100 Subject: Atdtda28: Paralyzed for days, 783 Message-ID: <000701c8e31f$05e2f370$11a8da50$@com> Action commences, finally, with drumming; although this activity is accompanied by Kit's near paralysis. Given that the drummer(s) cannot be identified, this passage offers "the taiga inscrutable and vast" as author, or perhaps collective author. For the first time Kit is associated with "the Event", the drumming a form of representation: "... he thought he heard something familiar in it", this sense-making a way out of paralysis/inactivity. He thinks of Agdy; and the Event has already passed into folklore. This corroborates the view offered by Pavel Sergeivitch on 780, and Kit/Prance are associated with "the people who live down there". If science cannot confine the Event with explanation, or the kind of explanation that science/scientists will permit, it would appear that shamanism can. Cf. Prance's rant in the previous section (782-783) and his dismissal of shamanism on 776. From madame.brady at gmail.com Fri Jul 11 04:52:19 2008 From: madame.brady at gmail.com (Tara Brady) Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2008 10:52:19 +0100 Subject: Thomas Pynchon's Blueberry Boat Message-ID: http://www.powells.com/blog/?p=3466 There must be learned types around these parts who might do better. No? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From robinlandseadel at comcast.net Fri Jul 11 08:01:17 2008 From: robinlandseadel at comcast.net (robinlandseadel at comcast.net) Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2008 13:01:17 +0000 Subject: Thomas Pynchon's Blueberry Boat Message-ID: <071120081301.15811.4877599D0000D32B00003DC32215555884040A0B0E0A9C0B020E0402070D019D@comcast.net> . . . .sorry, it's 4:20 in the morn and there is no place I'm going to. Somehow [please don't ask how] I was transported to an office somewhere out near Pomona, the walls outgassing the intoxicating aroma associated with the free and easy use of acetone in the paint mix. There was that nagging issue of the Overlunch Estate, and somewhere out on the edge of suburbia an Intellectual property rights management lawsuit was metastasizing in better lit [and better smelling] offices further west and south. If you want a life in Hollywood, don't mess with the mouse, that Disney dude has some rough friends, if you catch my drift. Seeing as the sun had coagulated the morning's vaporous haze into something orange, dense and stinging, I decided to head out to hear the Scottsville Squirrel Barkers at the Folk Den. You'd figure a gaslit anachronism like the "Folk Den" would be a center for the dissemination and enjoyment of various plants and other interesting compounds generally frowned upon by the local enforcers of morality. The usual suspects were collected in a darkened corner, led by a short, annoyed young go-getter in a black business suit accessorised with a nod or two towards the Mystic East. His black shades warded off any potential examination into his soul, assuming he had one. On his lapel was a little silver badge inscribed with the glyph of a smaller circle resting like a snowman's head on a larger circle with something like a sidewise "S" at the bottom. I assumed it must have been a cartoon mouse, but considering all the time I spent this morning unspinning the entanglements of the Overlunch Estate and Gengis Cohen, I figured it must be projection to a certain extant. I just wrote it off as another of the days expenses that never get written down on your expense report. The small one in shades was leading a lively contingent of camp followers in some sort of contest, seeing who could nasally ingest 12 linear inches of cocaine in the least amount of time . An older gentleman with a gotee wearing a boni-fied Nehru jacket was jotting down numbers on a notepad with a stopwatch in his other hand. "MY engineer", explained the little one with the shades, "I don't go anywhere without him anymore, least since that bust in Topanga Canyon last month. Nothing like running with a dude who worked on the Manhattan Project to keep the feds off your ass." The radioactively incandescent glow of the failing sun cast magenta light on the hazy contingent of musical amateurs in the den. Somehow the four or five gents with mandolins, banjos and guitars decided to bring various large pieces of sound reinforcement gear into this tiny dive. They were working up a fluid fingerstyle rendition of the Earle Of Oxford�s March , but amplified in such a way as to sound just like the jet airliners descending to the airport runway a half mile or two down the boulevard. After a vocal bridge in five parts run through a tape delay, the curly headed one with the impish grin introduced the band. "Good evening, we're the Beef�what's that Chris?�OK! ! ! , tonight, for the first time, ladies, gentlemen and residents of North Hollywood�The Paranoids ! ! ! -------------- Original message ---------------------- From: "Tara Brady" > http://www.powells.com/blog/?p=3466 > > There must be learned types around these parts who might do better. No? From scuffling at gmail.com Fri Jul 11 08:34:27 2008 From: scuffling at gmail.com (Henry) Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2008 09:34:27 -0400 Subject: Thomas Pynchon's Blueberry Boat In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <004501c8e35a$d7fb94d0$87f2be70$@com> Hmmm. What's with the GR cover at Powell's? Nice piece! But I'll leave the learned stuff for somebody else. Henry Mu Information, Media, and Technology Consultant http://my.barackobama.com/page/community/blog/henrymu ------------------------------- From: Tara Brady http://www.powells.com/blog/?p=3466 There must be learned types around these parts who might do better. No? From markekohut at yahoo.com Fri Jul 11 08:42:26 2008 From: markekohut at yahoo.com (Mark Kohut) Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2008 06:42:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Misc. on Henry Adams and maybe TRP... Message-ID: <555684.73442.qm@web38401.mail.mud.yahoo.com> I was at an outdoor reading room during yesterday's beautiful afternoon. There were L of A. copies of Henry Adams' History of the United states. Now, we all know that Henry Adams' "Education" permeated OBAs mind back in the day and deeply influenced him. Premise: I am going to suggest that such a thorough reader/writer/thinker as OBA would have read--at least read into--other major work of writers whom he felt deeply. With that assumption, Pynchon may have read---and been influenced---by this major work of American history. So, Kute Korrespondences, inevitable because of the nature of obs and reality? OR, influences of some kind? Adams writes at length of the postal service throughout America in 1800.... 3 weeks Philly to Nashville, three times a week....over 900 'routes" within the States....which he seems to think does not raise enough money for all the service....... He loves waterways and travel via them....He writes of 'the largest frigate in the US Navy, the 'line-of-battleship-in-disguise'" ! He writes "the Saxon farmer of the 8th Century enjoyed most of the comforts known to Saxon farmers of the 18th C."...."the eorls and ceorls of Olf and Ecqbert could not read or write.....yet [their lives as lived] were "not improved by time" to the 18th Century.... You be the judge, and comments welcomed. ______________________________- Also, learned elsewhere....in "Back to the Future 3", the time travelling protagonists encounter a family named Tannen, including "Mad Dog" Tannen [who loses it when called 'mad Dog'].................. From scuffling at gmail.com Fri Jul 11 08:44:31 2008 From: scuffling at gmail.com (Henry) Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2008 09:44:31 -0400 Subject: VLP: Rivka Glachen's 'Atmospheric Disturbances' Message-ID: <004701c8e35c$40e699d0$c2b3cd70$@com> Rivka Glachen's 'Atmospheric Disturbances' International Herald Tribune http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/07/12/arts/idbriefs12D.php "Galchen's inventive narrative strategies call to mind the playful techniques of Jonathan Lethem, Franz Kafka, Primo Levi and Thomas Pynchon. ..." Sounds intriguing. Knowing this list, someone's already read it. Henry Mu Information, Media, and Technology Consultant http://my.barackobama.com/page/community/blog/henrymu From markekohut at yahoo.com Fri Jul 11 08:46:12 2008 From: markekohut at yahoo.com (Mark Kohut) Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2008 06:46:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: On Moral Equivalence Message-ID: <584077.36568.qm@web38403.mail.mud.yahoo.com> I'm sorry but I must argue that the readings here are simply wrong. Wrong for fiction. Fiction is not non-fiction grounded in fantasy or irreality. Fiction is not history judging the literal equivalence of historical actions, historical evils. Pynchon's works are NOT Nicholson Baker's "Human Smoke"--a recent non-fictional work which I think fails for large historical moral inequivalent reasons...[Mr. Baker is on Charlie Rose toninght, if interested] Moralism, first, is usually used to characterize self-righteously expressed statements judging facts or situations. In fiction, it MEANS the intrusion of such non-fictional literalism into the whole visionary world of the fiction. A moral vision is a writer's whole worldview. For a writer of fiction, that worldview is only literal in the worst fiction; irony, satire, vision of who says what, in context, enwraps it all. Pynchon's outraged [see satire as the deepest ideals frustrated by reality] linking of historical situations, historical evils and modern companies in GR and Against the Day IS the vision....by satirizing them individually yet linking them shows he does not see them as equivalent.....we cannot leave simple distinctions at home as we read; he didn't.............we have to judge why he links them, where he sees common sources..............Pynchon tries to do that (and largely succeeds in my opinion). He finds the repression of certain universal psychic realities, the structures of the modern world and the way it warps all in it leading to much of the evil in it.......... His 'moral vision' is his deep condemnations AND his moments of transcending, being human within, surviving such History. GR, passim. .....Mason AND Dixon............the whole 'spiritual' exploration in Against the Day......the whole finding of a human wholeness in pre-modern history, communities in Against the Day.... I am sorry but TRP has incorporated such "reductionism" into his vision of what is wrong with our thinking in the modern world. --- On Thu, 7/10/08, malignd at aol.com wrote: > From: malignd at aol.com > Subject: Re: Repost: "The Big One" > To: pynchon-l at waste.org > Date: Thursday, July 10, 2008, 3:54 PM > As far as Pynchon's concerned, Shell's just as much > a Nazi as the rest of 'em. > > > > > Which was, or course, my point:  that that is > Pynchon's moral universe. From robinlandseadel at comcast.net Fri Jul 11 09:16:05 2008 From: robinlandseadel at comcast.net (robinlandseadel at comcast.net) Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2008 14:16:05 +0000 Subject: On Moral Equivalence Message-ID: <071120081416.11141.48776B25000D6BC900002B852215567074040A0B0E0A9C0B020E0402070D019D@comcast.net> I'm sorry but I must argue that the readings here are simply wrong. Wrong for fiction. Fiction is not non-fiction grounded in fantasy or irreality. Fiction is not history judging the literal equivalence of historical actions, historical evils. Pynchon's works are NOT Nicholson Baker's "Human Smoke"--a recent non-fictional work which I think fails for large historical moral inequivalent reasons...[Mr. Baker is on Charlie Rose toninght, if interested] Moralism, first, is usually used to characterize self-righteously expressed statements judging facts or situations. In fiction, it MEANS the intrusion of such non-fictional literalism into the whole visionary world of the fiction. I figure that a lot of the personalities in the scenes in Dante's Inferno come from the real-life experiences of that illustrious Italian poet. We see these monsters through the eyes of a poet with an agenda. Pynchon is a poet with an agenda. Just like Dante, he's keen on karma. Karma's the rule in Pynchonland. I realize, vide his Dudeness, that you could call it Justice. But Pynchon's mind is filled with internal dialogs that merge with vectors and bell curves, the poetry and essentially Taoist nature of mathematical equations, and of nature's accounting of all things in time. Justice is the imposition of will and order. Karma's just nature doing her job. Mark: A moral vision is a writer's whole worldview. For a writer of fiction, that worldview is only literal in the worst fiction; irony, satire, vision of who says what, in context, enwraps it all. Pynchon's outraged [see satire as the deepest ideals frustrated by reality] linking of historical situations, historical evils and modern companies in GR and Against the Day IS the vision....by satirizing them individually yet linking them shows he does not see them as equivalent.....we cannot leave simple distinctions at home as we read; he didn't.............we have to judge why he links them, where he sees common sources..............Pynchon tries to do that (and largely succeeds in my opinion). He finds the repression of certain universal psychic realities, the structures of the modern world and the way it warps all in it leading to much of the evil in it.......... His 'moral vision' is his deep condemnations AND his moments of transcending, being human within, surviving such History. GR, passim. .....Mason AND Dixon............the whole 'spiritual' exploration in Against the Day......the whole finding of a human wholeness in pre-modern history, communities in Against the Day.... I am sorry but TRP has incorporated such "reductionism" into his vision of what is wrong with our thinking in the modern world. --- On Thu, 7/10/08, malignd at aol.com wrote: > From: malignd at aol.com > Subject: Re: Repost: "The Big One" > To: pynchon-l at waste.org > Date: Thursday, July 10, 2008, 3:54 PM > As far as Pynchon's concerned, Shell's just as much > a Nazi as the rest of 'em. > > > > > Which was, or course, my point: that that is > Pynchon's moral universe. From markekohut at yahoo.com Fri Jul 11 09:47:14 2008 From: markekohut at yahoo.com (Mark Kohut) Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2008 07:47:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: On Moral Equivalence In-Reply-To: <071120081416.11141.48776B25000D6BC900002B852215567074040A0B0E0A9C0B020E0402070D019D@comcast.net> Message-ID: <433726.19961.qm@web38401.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Robin writes: "I figure that a lot of the personalities in the scenes in Dante's Inferno come from the real-life experiences of that illustrious Italian poet. We see these monsters through the eyes of a poet with an agenda. Pynchon is a poet with an agenda. Just like Dante, he's keen on karma. Karma's the rule in Pynchonland. I realize, vide his Dudeness, that you could call it Justice. But Pynchon's mind is filled with internal dialogs that merge with vectors and bell curves, the poetry and essentially Taoist nature of mathematical equations, and of nature's accounting of all things in time. Justice is the imposition of will and order. Karma's just nature doing her job." And I, in my own narcissistic humility [of faux humility], am absolutely in agreement in principle with the above.........(and maybe in all the particulars as espressed)..............karma, Justice and such other themes as i mentioned, are all part of a full worldview...... Or Aren't................... Which is why TRP is a moralist not just an entertainer or ironic postmodernist, in my opinion........ --- On Fri, 7/11/08, robinlandseadel at comcast.net wrote: > From: robinlandseadel at comcast.net > Subject: Re: On Moral Equivalence > To: "P-list" > Date: Friday, July 11, 2008, 10:16 AM > I'm sorry but I must argue that the readings here are > simply wrong. > Wrong for fiction. > > Fiction is not non-fiction grounded in fantasy or > irreality. Fiction is not > history judging the literal equivalence of historical > actions, historical evils. > > Pynchon's works are NOT Nicholson Baker's > "Human Smoke"--a recent non-fictional > work which I think fails for large historical moral > inequivalent reasons...[Mr. > Baker is on Charlie Rose toninght, if interested] > > Moralism, first, is usually used to characterize > self-righteously expressed > statements judging facts or situations. In fiction, it > MEANS the intrusion > of such non-fictional literalism into the whole visionary > world of the fiction. > I figure that a lot of the personalities in the scenes in > Dante's Inferno > come from the real-life experiences of that illustrious > Italian poet. > We see these monsters through the eyes of a poet with an > agenda. > Pynchon is a poet with an agenda. Just like Dante, he's > keen on > karma. Karma's the rule in Pynchonland. I realize, vide > his > Dudeness, that you could call it Justice. But Pynchon's > mind > is filled with internal dialogs that merge with vectors and > bell curves, > the poetry and essentially Taoist nature of mathematical > equations, > and of nature's accounting of all things in time. > Justice is the > imposition of will and order. Karma's just nature doing > her job. > > > Mark: > > A moral vision is a writer's whole worldview. For a > writer of fiction, that > worldview is only literal in the worst fiction; irony, > satire, vision of who > says what, in context, enwraps it all. > > > Pynchon's outraged [see satire as the deepest ideals > frustrated by reality] > linking of historical situations, historical evils and > modern companies in > GR and Against the Day IS the vision....by satirizing them > individually yet > linking them shows he does not see them as > equivalent.....we cannot leave > simple distinctions at home as we read; he > didn't.............we have to judge > why he links them, where he sees common > sources..............Pynchon tries > to do that (and largely succeeds in my opinion). He finds > the repression of > certain universal psychic realities, the structures of the > modern world and > the way it warps all in it leading to much of the evil in > it.......... > > His 'moral vision' is his deep condemnations AND > his moments of > transcending, being human within, surviving such History. > GR, > passim. .....Mason AND Dixon............the whole > 'spiritual' > exploration in Against the Day......the whole finding of a > human > wholeness in pre-modern history, communities in Against > the Day.... > > I am sorry but TRP has incorporated such > "reductionism" into his vision of > what is wrong with our thinking in the modern world. > > > > --- On Thu, 7/10/08, malignd at aol.com > wrote: > > > From: malignd at aol.com > > Subject: Re: Repost: "The Big One" > > To: pynchon-l at waste.org > > Date: Thursday, July 10, 2008, 3:54 PM > > As far as Pynchon's concerned, Shell's just as > much > > a Nazi as the rest of 'em. > > > > > > > > > > Which was, or course, my point: that that is > > Pynchon's moral universe. From scuffling at gmail.com Fri Jul 11 09:50:49 2008 From: scuffling at gmail.com (Henry) Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2008 10:50:49 -0400 Subject: Toast, Anyone? Message-ID: <005601c8e365$82bdad90$883908b0$@com> This is one of my favorites, I must admit, and it came up on quote of the day today: I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve. - JRR Tolkien For the life of me, I can't think of any toasts in Pynch-Lit. Henry Mu Information, Media, and Technology Consultant http://my.barackobama.com/page/community/blog/henrymu From robinlandseadel at comcast.net Fri Jul 11 09:56:46 2008 From: robinlandseadel at comcast.net (robinlandseadel at comcast.net) Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2008 14:56:46 +0000 Subject: Toast, Anyone? Message-ID: <071120081456.18850.487774AE0007C1EA000049A22216548686040A0B0E0A9C0B020E0402070D019D@comcast.net> "For the life of me, I can't think of any toasts in Pynch-Lit." "Suck Hour!" screamed Ploy. From markekohut at yahoo.com Fri Jul 11 10:09:31 2008 From: markekohut at yahoo.com (Mark Kohut) Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2008 08:09:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Toast, Anyone? In-Reply-To: <071120081456.18850.487774AE0007C1EA000049A22216548686040A0B0E0A9C0B020E0402070D019D@comcast.net> Message-ID: <737124.99552.qm@web38404.mail.mud.yahoo.com> LOL....Great! --- On Fri, 7/11/08, robinlandseadel at comcast.net wrote: > From: robinlandseadel at comcast.net > Subject: Re: Toast, Anyone? > To: "P-list" > Date: Friday, July 11, 2008, 10:56 AM > "For the life of me, I can't think of any toasts in > Pynch-Lit." > > "Suck Hour!" screamed Ploy. From against.the.dave at gmail.com Fri Jul 11 10:50:16 2008 From: against.the.dave at gmail.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2008 10:50:16 -0500 Subject: A.Word.A.Day Message-ID: A.Word.A.Day with Anu Garg callipygian PRONUNCIATION: (kal-uh-PIJ-ee-uhn) MEANING: adjective: Having well-shaped buttocks. ETYMOLOGY: >From Greek calli- (beautiful) + pyge (buttocks). USAGE: "And it hasn't been lost on modern film directors that a nice set of tights can showcase the callipygian assets of a well-formed leading man." Heroes in Hosiery; South China Morning Post (Hong Kong); Jul 20, 2006. http://wordsmith.org/words/callipygian.html http://wordsmith.org/awad/ "Those dusky Afro-Scandinavian buttocks, which combine the callipygian rondure observed among the races of the Dark Continent with the taut and noble musculature of sturdy Olaf, our blond Northern cousin." --GR, Pt. I, p. 69 From robinlandseadel at comcast.net Fri Jul 11 11:01:29 2008 From: robinlandseadel at comcast.net (robinlandseadel at comcast.net) Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2008 16:01:29 +0000 Subject: A.Word.A.Day Message-ID: <071120081601.6995.487783D90003239F00001B532216548686040A0B0E0A9C0B020E0402070D019D@comcast.net> Reminds me of my ex-girlfriend. . . . -------------- Original message ---------------------- Dave Monroe:. . . .callipygian. . . . From scuffling at gmail.com Fri Jul 11 12:28:30 2008 From: scuffling at gmail.com (Henry) Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2008 13:28:30 -0400 Subject: A.Word.A.Day In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <009201c8e37b$8a869ee0$9f93dca0$@com> A-and curiously "callipygian" has nothing in common with "Calypso" (Greek: Καλυψώ, English translation: "I will conceal"), who according to Hesiod bore Odysseus two children: Nausithous and Nausinous. The island of Gozo, part of the Maltese archipelago, has a long tradition that links it with the mythical figure of Calypso. Malta, Malta, Malta. Henry Mu Information, Media, and Technology Consultant http://my.barackobama.com/page/community/blog/henrymu From against.the.dave at gmail.com Fri Jul 11 12:50:09 2008 From: against.the.dave at gmail.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2008 12:50:09 -0500 Subject: Thomas Pynchon Promotional Broadside Message-ID: For sale: Thomas Pynchon promotional broadside celebrating the appearance of Gravity's Rainbow. "DEAR THOMAS PYNCHON, WE THOUGHT YOU'D LIKE TO SEE THE FIRST REVIEWS FOR YOUR BOOK!" Single sheet, measuring 17 by 22 inches. It is illustrated in black and white with the front panel and spine of the dust jacket for the first edition of Gravity's Rainbow. In addition the broadside prints excerpts from some reviews of Thomas Pynchon's Gravity's Rainbow. Folded a few times, else fine. Same item lists on abebooks for $575. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=280244927801 From paul.mackin at verizon.net Fri Jul 11 12:55:19 2008 From: paul.mackin at verizon.net (Paul Mackin) Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2008 13:55:19 -0400 Subject: Repost: "The Big One" In-Reply-To: <071020081516.25220.487627CB000B60B0000062842215568884040A0B0E0A9C0B020E0402070D019D@comcast.net> References: <071020081516.25220.487627CB000B60B0000062842215568884040A0B0E0A9C0B020E0402070D019D@comcast.net> Message-ID: <48779E87.4000907@verizon.net> robinlandseadel at comcast.net wrote: > Paul Mackin: > . . . .Secondly, saying that former Nazis (Whom W undoubted > was one of) would find important roles in the post-war > corporate world is not necessarily saying that the latter > is full-fledgedly Nazi. . . . > > Yet the far left would make that connection. You might not, but the > Abbie Hoffmans of the world did and continue to do so. And Against > the Day is filled with favorable portraits of the Abbie Hoffmans of > the Gilded Age. And it's pretty obvious that Pynchon used material > from "Murdered by Capitalism" by John Ross of Trinidad, CA, > one of the Abbie Hoffmans of our time: > > http://tinyurl.com/5hulsd > > I thought we were talking about what the Tarot passage conveys--not the views of the "far left" (presume you mean people who blow shit up) or the "fun with the revolution" left (Abbie Hoffman). From against.the.dave at gmail.com Fri Jul 11 13:35:27 2008 From: against.the.dave at gmail.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2008 13:35:27 -0500 Subject: Thomas Pynchon Promotional Broadside In-Reply-To: <830c13f40807111125j5ff2988fx3508976d440d267b@mail.gmail.com> References: <830c13f40807111125j5ff2988fx3508976d440d267b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On 7/11/08, rich wrote: > this I just found: > > http://sweetbooks.com/p.htm > > PYNCHON, Thomas. Mason and Dixon. NY: Henry Holt, (1997). Hardbound in > dust jacket. First edition. Presentation copy inscribed by Pynchon to > William Plumley, head of the University of Charleston award committee > that chose Pynchon for their Appalachian Medallion: "For William > Plumley, With appreciation and thanks. Thomas Pynchon." TOGETHER WITH > a Typed Letter Signed from Pynchon declining the award and presenting > the book. One quarto page on Mason and Dixon letterhead dated June 23, > 1997, in full: "Dear Mr. Plumley, Regretfully, I must decline the > Appalachian Medallion...." Did anyone even know he'd been chosen for this? Then turned it down? The only directly related Google hits I get are for this book ... From richard.romeo at gmail.com Fri Jul 11 13:25:18 2008 From: richard.romeo at gmail.com (rich) Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2008 14:25:18 -0400 Subject: Thomas Pynchon Promotional Broadside In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <830c13f40807111125j5ff2988fx3508976d440d267b@mail.gmail.com> this I just found: http://sweetbooks.com/p.htm PYNCHON, Thomas. Mason and Dixon. NY: Henry Holt, (1997). Hardbound in dust jacket. First edition. Presentation copy inscribed by Pynchon to William Plumley, head of the University of Charleston award committee that chose Pynchon for their Appalachian Medallion: "For William Plumley, With appreciation and thanks. Thomas Pynchon." TOGETHER WITH a Typed Letter Signed from Pynchon declining the award and presenting the book. One quarto page on Mason and Dixon letterhead dated June 23, 1997, in full: "Dear Mr. Plumley, Regretfully, I must decline the Appalachian Medallion. Rationally or otherwise, I have a history of trying to avoid, whenever possible, all such awards. I am grateful to you for the chance to do so ahead of time, as well as for the honor, of course, of even being thought of on the same list as Eudora Welty and Robert Penn Warren. I do, however, hope that you will accept, with my thanks, the copy of Mason and Dixon enclosed. Part of the novel is set in Appalachia---I've tried in it to remain true to the spirit of the region and the people, whom I continue to admire and respect. Yours truly, Thomas Pynchon." Books signed by Pynchon seldom surface on the market and autograph material by him is among the most difficult of any living author. There have been a few known instances where he's donated a signed book to a charity auction, but genuine presentation copies of his books are truly rare, and rarer still is Pynchon correspondence---and this letter is especially nice. Along with the literary references and mention of his own book, Pynchon explains his ethos of anonymity that has caused him to studiously avoid awards, interviews, and photographs throughout his career. A search of auction records shows no evidence of a Pynchon letter ever having appeared at auction. A superb pair of Pynchon items, the only inscribed book with a presentation letter that we know of. Fine. SKB-13851 $37500 Rich On Fri, Jul 11, 2008 at 1:50 PM, Dave Monroe wrote: > For sale: Thomas Pynchon promotional broadside celebrating the > appearance of Gravity's Rainbow. "DEAR THOMAS PYNCHON, WE THOUGHT > YOU'D LIKE TO SEE THE FIRST REVIEWS FOR YOUR BOOK!" Single sheet, > measuring 17 by 22 inches. It is illustrated in black and white with > the front panel and spine of the dust jacket for the first edition of > Gravity's Rainbow. In addition the broadside prints excerpts from some > reviews of Thomas Pynchon's Gravity's Rainbow. Folded a few times, > else fine. Same item lists on abebooks for $575. > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=280244927801 > From michael.lee.bailey at gmail.com Fri Jul 11 14:03:27 2008 From: michael.lee.bailey at gmail.com (Michael Bailey) Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2008 15:03:27 -0400 Subject: Atdtda28: Paralyzed for days, 783 In-Reply-To: <000701c8e31f$05e2f370$11a8da50$@com> References: <000701c8e31f$05e2f370$11a8da50$@com> Message-ID: On 7/11/08, Paul Nightingale wrote: > Action commences, finally, with drumming; although this activity is > accompanied by Kit's near paralysis. Given that the drummer(s) cannot be > identified, this passage offers "the taiga inscrutable and vast" as author, > or perhaps collective author. For the first time Kit is associated with "the > Event", the drumming a form of representation: "... he thought he heard > something familiar in it", probably a long stretch, but I'm feeling some parallels between the drumming on the taiga and "Kieselguhr's" bombings... as background for different stages of Kit's life or maybe it's the pink tabs... From michael.lee.bailey at gmail.com Fri Jul 11 14:12:09 2008 From: michael.lee.bailey at gmail.com (Michael Bailey) Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2008 15:12:09 -0400 Subject: Repost: "The Big One" In-Reply-To: <071020081123.3501.4875F115000B533D00000DAD2216557996040A0B0E0A9C0B020E0402070D019D@comcast.net> References: <071020081123.3501.4875F115000B533D00000DAD2216557996040A0B0E0A9C0B020E0402070D019D@comcast.net> Message-ID: On 7/10/08, robinlandseadel at comcast.net wrote: > David Payne: > Hold on -- can you expound on what you mean by "[I] would > > point to Weissmann's tarot as the narrator's true feelings on > the subject"? very contrarian view steals over me now & again... that Pynchon is actually rooting for the Weissmann camp... that he's *glad* we shall have to look "high, not low" for him (W, that is) this possibility percolates nicely through all my readings and makes them sinister... then again, this stems from a paranoia I learned (or at least honed) at the hands or under the arch of GR From markekohut at yahoo.com Fri Jul 11 14:38:46 2008 From: markekohut at yahoo.com (Mark Kohut) Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2008 12:38:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Thomas Pynchon Promotional Broadside In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <564900.56844.qm@web38402.mail.mud.yahoo.com> My guess here is that this prize, like many in the book/literary world, is decided BEFORE the award date---unlike Academy Awards, Pulitzer Prizes and National book Awards----and the writer is notified, often thru his publisher. You can see that Pynchon says he was glad to be notified in advance but he won't accept. Therefore, they must have chosen another writer's book. There are some literary Prizes in which it is necessary to accept---or show up and accept---- All the stuff I've read on the Nobel by the way says that the Committee now wants that ever since Sartre declined it in the 60s.......they talk to the possibiles in advance these days................ so, it is possible TRP already won the Nobel invisibly, so to speak, and we might never know or not until someone writes their Swedish memoirs. (I have occasionally wondered if Elfrede Jellinek, Pynchon's German translator of GR, at least, was a 'second choice' when TRP declined.) --- On Fri, 7/11/08, Dave Monroe wrote: > From: Dave Monroe > Subject: Re: Thomas Pynchon Promotional Broadside > To: "rich" > Cc: "pynchon -l" > Date: Friday, July 11, 2008, 2:35 PM > On 7/11/08, rich wrote: > > this I just found: > > > > http://sweetbooks.com/p.htm > > > > PYNCHON, Thomas. Mason and Dixon. NY: Henry Holt, > (1997). Hardbound in > > dust jacket. First edition. Presentation copy > inscribed by Pynchon to > > William Plumley, head of the University of Charleston > award committee > > that chose Pynchon for their Appalachian Medallion: > "For William > > Plumley, With appreciation and thanks. Thomas > Pynchon." TOGETHER WITH > > a Typed Letter Signed from Pynchon declining the award > and presenting > > the book. One quarto page on Mason and Dixon > letterhead dated June 23, > > 1997, in full: "Dear Mr. Plumley, Regretfully, I > must decline the > > Appalachian Medallion...." > > Did anyone even know he'd been chosen for this? Then > turned it down? > The only directly related Google hits I get are for this > book ... From markekohut at yahoo.com Fri Jul 11 14:53:29 2008 From: markekohut at yahoo.com (Mark Kohut) Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2008 12:53:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Thomas Pynchon Promotional Broadside In-Reply-To: <564900.56844.qm@web38402.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <805267.12605.qm@web38403.mail.mud.yahoo.com> My online research seems to indicate that this award is presented irregularly, not always for fiction and that no award was given in 1997. --- On Fri, 7/11/08, Mark Kohut wrote: > From: Mark Kohut > Subject: Re: Thomas Pynchon Promotional Broadside > To: "pynchon -l" > Date: Friday, July 11, 2008, 3:38 PM > My guess here is that this prize, like many in the > book/literary world, > is decided BEFORE the award date---unlike Academy Awards, > Pulitzer Prizes > and National book Awards----and the writer is notified, > often thru his publisher. > You can see that Pynchon says he was glad to be notified in > advance but he won't accept. > Therefore, they must have chosen another writer's book. > > There are some literary Prizes in which it is necessary to > accept---or show up and accept---- > > All the stuff I've read on the Nobel by the way says > that the Committee now wants that ever since Sartre > declined it in the 60s.......they talk to the possibiles in > advance these days................ > so, it is possible TRP already won the Nobel invisibly, so > to speak, and we might never know or not until someone > writes their Swedish memoirs. > > (I have occasionally wondered if Elfrede Jellinek, > Pynchon's German translator of GR, at least, was a > 'second choice' when TRP declined.) > > > --- On Fri, 7/11/08, Dave Monroe > wrote: > > > From: Dave Monroe > > Subject: Re: Thomas Pynchon Promotional Broadside > > To: "rich" > > Cc: "pynchon -l" > > Date: Friday, July 11, 2008, 2:35 PM > > On 7/11/08, rich > wrote: > > > this I just found: > > > > > > http://sweetbooks.com/p.htm > > > > > > PYNCHON, Thomas. Mason and Dixon. NY: Henry Holt, > > (1997). Hardbound in > > > dust jacket. First edition. Presentation copy > > inscribed by Pynchon to > > > William Plumley, head of the University of > Charleston > > award committee > > > that chose Pynchon for their Appalachian > Medallion: > > "For William > > > Plumley, With appreciation and thanks. Thomas > > Pynchon." TOGETHER WITH > > > a Typed Letter Signed from Pynchon declining the > award > > and presenting > > > the book. One quarto page on Mason and Dixon > > letterhead dated June 23, > > > 1997, in full: "Dear Mr. Plumley, > Regretfully, I > > must decline the > > > Appalachian Medallion...." > > > > Did anyone even know he'd been chosen for this? > Then > > turned it down? > > The only directly related Google hits I get are for > this > > book ... From paul.mackin at verizon.net Fri Jul 11 15:13:15 2008 From: paul.mackin at verizon.net (Paul Mackin) Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2008 16:13:15 -0400 Subject: Repost: "The Big One" In-Reply-To: References: <071020081123.3501.4875F115000B533D00000DAD2216557996040A0B0E0A9C0B020E0402070D019D@comcast.net> Message-ID: <4877BEDB.9060503@verizon.net> Michael Bailey wrote: > On 7/10/08, robinlandseadel at comcast.net wrote: > >> David Payne: >> Hold on -- can you expound on what you mean by "[I] would >> >> point to Weissmann's tarot as the narrator's true feelings on >> the subject"? >> > > > very contrarian view steals over me now & again... > that Pynchon is actually rooting for the Weissmann camp... > that he's *glad* we shall have to look "high, not low" for him (W, that is) > > this possibility percolates nicely through all my readings and makes > them sinister... > > then again, this stems from a paranoia I learned > (or at least honed) at the hands or under the arch of GR > > > Perhaps the tarot passage is just one more iteration of the End of Romanticism. In which novel's most fabulous character aims himself (his lover actually but that's only a detail) for the Stars, but ends up in a Boring Old Board Room. Remember who the favorite poet was. I recommend reading as little morality into Pynchon as humanly possible. I prefer to seek out the SINISTER . . . . From malignd at aol.com Fri Jul 11 16:18:29 2008 From: malignd at aol.com (malignd at aol.com) Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2008 17:18:29 -0400 Subject: Repost: "The Big One" In-Reply-To: <4877BEDB.9060503@verizon.net> Message-ID: <8CAB1B2CC606104-1488-2D96@WEBMAIL-MC03.sysops.aol.com> <> Very little reading into is called for. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From markekohut at yahoo.com Fri Jul 11 18:48:06 2008 From: markekohut at yahoo.com (Mark Kohut) Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2008 16:48:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Repost: "The Big One" In-Reply-To: <8CAB1B2CC606104-1488-2D96@WEBMAIL-MC03.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <369841.92645.qm@web38403.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Yeahp, it's all there; no need to read into it is embedded in (almost) every word...... Every character's attitudes; the meaning of every scene; the vision of History; the vision of being fully human....all are a writer's 'moral vision'... As with other great or near-(but failed)-great writers. --- On Fri, 7/11/08, malignd at aol.com wrote: > From: malignd at aol.com > Subject: Re: Repost: "The Big One" > To: pynchon-l at waste.org > Date: Friday, July 11, 2008, 5:18 PM > < as humanly possible. >> > > > > > Very little reading into is called for. From markekohut at yahoo.com Fri Jul 11 18:56:27 2008 From: markekohut at yahoo.com (Mark Kohut) Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2008 16:56:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Pynchon sighting Message-ID: <542099.12910.qm@web38406.mail.mud.yahoo.com> A friend of mine in Chicago went to hear Salman Rushdie read from his latest book. He seemed to be bouyed by just having learned that Midnight's Children was voted the Best of the Bookers.... Then she wrote me this: ",,,when asked about the literary influence of Calvino and Pynchon, he admitted to being a “Pynchonista” and said, among other things, that he had actually met him once."........... I'll bet it was when he was 'under the fatwa' and Pynchon lived like he was/is. Rushdie did one of the most positive mainstream reviews of "Vineland". has mentioned GR in interviews.... From markekohut at yahoo.com Fri Jul 11 19:18:48 2008 From: markekohut at yahoo.com (Mark Kohut) Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2008 17:18:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: still stuck in 1910... Message-ID: <130901.19626.qm@web38404.mail.mud.yahoo.com> "when the music stopped"...as we remember. I have learned two more 1910 details. William James, leading philosopher of chance died...(but that can't be it) But this: "The "point de repere", usually and conveniently taken, as the starting-point of modern poetry, is the group denominated 'imagist' in London about 1910"---T. S. Eliot, American Literature and the American Language, 1953. Q:the music of poetry that rhymed stopped.....for the poetry of images that did not????? From markekohut at yahoo.com Fri Jul 11 19:20:27 2008 From: markekohut at yahoo.com (Mark Kohut) Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2008 17:20:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Can't recover Bekah's long good post Message-ID: <217299.39717.qm@web38408.mail.mud.yahoo.com> but I did want to answer yes imho to her question about whether Frank and Jesse were named allusively referring the James boys. From markekohut at yahoo.com Fri Jul 11 19:34:40 2008 From: markekohut at yahoo.com (Mark Kohut) Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2008 17:34:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: still stuck in 1910...Refined phrasing In-Reply-To: <130901.19626.qm@web38404.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <201590.48275.qm@web38408.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Not so much poetry that rhymed but rythmic, metrically standard poetry.... "the music"??? --- On Fri, 7/11/08, Mark Kohut wrote: > From: Mark Kohut > Subject: still stuck in 1910... > To: "pynchon -l" > Date: Friday, July 11, 2008, 8:18 PM > "when the music stopped"...as we remember. > > I have learned two more 1910 details. William James, > leading philosopher of chance died...(but that can't be > it) > > But this: "The "point de repere", usually > and conveniently taken, as the starting-point of modern > poetry, is the group denominated 'imagist' in > London about 1910"---T. S. Eliot, American Literature > and the American Language, 1953. > > Q:the music of poetry that rhymed stopped.....for the > poetry of images that did not????? From against.the.dave at gmail.com Fri Jul 11 20:26:10 2008 From: against.the.dave at gmail.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2008 20:26:10 -0500 Subject: Nazi photos reveal devastation of WWII Allied bombing raids on Germany Message-ID: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/germany/2279721/Nazi-photos-reveal-devastation-of-WWII-Allied-bombing-raids-on-Germany.html From paul.mackin at verizon.net Fri Jul 11 23:52:33 2008 From: paul.mackin at verizon.net (Paul Mackin) Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2008 00:52:33 -0400 Subject: Repost: "The Big One" In-Reply-To: <8CAB1B2CC606104-1488-2D96@WEBMAIL-MC03.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CAB1B2CC606104-1488-2D96@WEBMAIL-MC03.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <48783891.9000806@verizon.net> malignd at aol.com wrote: > > < possible. >> > > > Very little reading into is called for. > In which case I would recommend doing some UNreading OUT. Reader nullification, as it were. Mickey Messer sez, First the beefsteak, then the moral. Why not, First the beefsteak, skip the moral. The main course is filling enough. P. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > The Famous, the Infamous, the Lame - in your browser. Get the TMZ > Toolbar Now > ! From lorentzen at hotmail.de Sat Jul 12 06:24:41 2008 From: lorentzen at hotmail.de (Kai Frederik Lorentzen) Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2008 13:24:41 +0200 Subject: Nazi photos reveal devastation of WWII Allied bombing raids on Germany In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: "Später, zwischen Mixed Pickles und Corned Beef, rückte er ein Gramm Koks raus und ließ Kuhl an seinem Glück teilhaben. 'Vom Oktoberfest!' Es ging schon fast auf halb neun Uhr zu: Im Fernsehen lief ein Streifen mit dem 'ratpack': Frankie, Sammy Davis Jr. und Dean 'Mean' Martin brachen in irgendein Nazigefängnis ein und aus ... und legten dabei Hunderte von SS-Wachen um. Eddie, der Philosoph, nannte den Film einen bewussten Akt von 'Geschichtsfälschung'. 'Die Krauts sind die einzigen, die sich das gefallen lassen', sagte er. 'Der Film ist trotzdem gut', beharrte Kuhl. 'Ich kenne den Film', sagte Eddie, 'Sinatra entkommt mit dem U-Boot. He, sieh mal, die Wachen rennen genauso wie die 'stormtroopers' in 'Star Wars'. Sie haben diesen Watschelgang drauf, als wären sie nicht richtig im Kopf oder hätten nie laufen gelernt'. 'Na und? Was soll an einem Film, der 185 Millionen Dollar eingespielt hat, verkehrt sein?' Kuhl wollte sich Sinatra nicht madig machen lassen. 'Ich steh auf Kriminelle. Sieh dir Frankie an. Wenn ihm ein Reporter auf die Nerven geht, lässt er ihn einfach zusammenschlagen. Das bisschen Schmerzensgeld zahlt der mit links'. Eddie ließ nicht locker. Nach dem Abendessen entschuldigte er sich wieder einmal förmlich für den Bombenkrieg der Air Force gegen die Frankfurter Zivilbevölkerung und schob die ganze Schuld auf die elende RAF und Bomber-Harris, der die Amerikaner erst auf diesen Gedanken gebracht hätte. 'Hier, schenk ich dir', sagte er schließlich und drängte Kuhl das restliche Koks auf, 'Wiedergutmachung'. 'Mein Gott, war doch halb so schlimm'. Kuhl versuchte abzuwiegeln, aber steckte es ein." (Thor Kunkel: Das Schwarzlicht-Terrarium. Reinbek bei Hamburg 2000: Rowohlt, pp. 459f.) Ultra-Abnormal-Super-Low: KFL -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From robinlandseadel at comcast.net Sat Jul 12 07:53:29 2008 From: robinlandseadel at comcast.net (robinlandseadel at comcast.net) Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2008 12:53:29 +0000 Subject: Repost: "The Big One" Message-ID: <071220081253.18729.4878A9490008A70E000049292216549976040A0B0E0A9C0B020E0402070D019D@comcast.net> Paul Mackin: I thought we were talking about what the Tarot passage conveys--not the views of the "far left" (presume you mean people who blow shit up) or the "fun with the revolution" left (Abbie Hoffman). Yes, it does seem like we have traversed quite far from the original post and my original intent. Something I have yet to hear mentioned here: What if �Against the Day � turns out to be �The Big One�, the one that ties it all together? I know that right now and for most of you, that's heresy. Heresy is huge in Pynchon's world, something I've been tracking for some time now. I read Gravity's Rainbow fairly obsessively between 1980 and 1983, throwing Moby Dick and Ulysses [Joyce] into the mix, working from the assumption that there was kinship twixt these books. Saw the amazing film version of Gunter Grass "The Tin Drum" at the time. Read Gravity's Rainbow the first time while living on the site of the "Northern" [Novato California] Renaissance Faire. Fortune tellers and crafts folk of all sorts lived on and hung out at the site. It was California's "Zone." Lotsa underground everything was passing through Ron & Phyllis love childe. LIke the remnants of Owsley's band. R.D. Thomas�Bob Thomas�the first music director of the Renaissance Faire was the artist responsible for the album art of "Live Dead.", cooking up Grateful Dead's iconic little bears on the side. He had lots of other interesting responsibilities "back in the day": http://www.deaddisc.com/disc/Live_Dead.htm Bob was at the center of a circle of buddies who hung out at the Faire. I remember Bob Thomas' words to me prior to my heading towards Livermore Labs for a massive anti-nuclear protest and mass arrest�"Walk slowly and drink plenty of water." That was 1983. Context is everything. Did I also mention all the card readers at the Faire? The Gypsy carts? Again, if the State of California ever had a "Zone", the Ren Faire was it. "Der Platz" was the Muhlla's Coffe shop, where Osbie Feel and S�ure Bummer can be found smoking Lebanese Hash and drinking Don Brown's mud while belly dancers twirl in the background. All that's missing is Anton Karas playing the "Third Man" theme. But the gypsy band play for the girl lifting her three skirts all at once will do just fine. Context is everything. I looked at the first press release for "Against the Day", noted the time frame and places on the map, put two and two together and realized that the time frame easily covered a period of time of great expansion of interest in all things metaphysical, particularly hidden insights from the "Mystic East." That would be the rise of the Theosophists. Following that the Golden Dawn appeared [sorry,that's how the history goes]. Crowley, in a Promethean move that predictably burned his ass real good, split off from the G.D., joined forces with the German O.T.O. and did a number of other interesting things to insure that his face would appear in the press daily, inspiring all sorts of shadowy subtexts for mystery writers to play with. What's worth noting here regarding OBA is Weissman's Tarot in Gravity's Rainbow. Whatever you might think of the Tarot, OBA takes it seriously enough to make a believer out of me, G-D's honest truth. Steven Weisenburger's "A Gravity's Rainbow Companion" effectively deciphers many of Pynchon's references to Ceremonial Magick. They're scattered throughout Gravity's Rainbow, sometimes with such density that it's easy, like Miles,to trip over them. When I saw Pynchon's descriptive blurb for "Against the Day" I noted a few obvious reference points: "Characters stop what they're doing to sing what are for the most part stupid songs. Strange and weird sexual practices take place. Obscure languages are spoken, not always idiomatically. Contrary-to-fact occurrences occur. Maybe it's not the world, but with a minor adjustment or two it's what the world might be." Pynchon's previous book�Mason & Dixon�was rife with olde metephysical language, Vineland seemed in many ways one long zen koan, even more Road-Runner Cartoons in blank verse. Ah, but Gravity's Rainbow [think Leporello's big aria from Don Giovanni, Pynchon did] is incredibly dense with cross reference with the inner teachings of ceremonial magic, in particular the Golden Dawn. So, when I saw those dates and the locations and the cast of characters: "Anarchists, balloonists, gamblers, corporate tycoons, drug enthusiasts, innocents and decadents and stage magicians, spies, dectectives, adventuresses, and hired guns. There are cameo appearances by Nkola Tesla, Bela Lugosi, and Groucho Marx." . . . . my mind registered "Gravity's Rainbow Backstory." In terms of tying together the threads that I've been persuing in Pynchon's books�and I really did read them all, you know, one over 50 times�"Against the Day" turned out to be "The Big One". It may not be your cup of tea, you probably find it too long, too 'joke-y', too spread out, too much to keep up with, profoundly boring and so on. But for me it illuminates "Gravity's Rainbow." When I first wrote the post, I was taking an educated guess as to what the content might be of a book that I did not have access to. As it turns out, "Against the Day" includes Crystal Magic, the Theosophists and the search for Shambahala, old fashioned stuff from Bulgaria [& even cooler�he links the musical traditions of that region all the way back to Orpheus in the process teaching us the "Pythagorean way of knowledge"] , the T.W.I.T. with A.E. Waite a few blocks away, Psychic readings, riffs on Tibetan Buddhism, Shamans with crystal skulls and peyote: the only thing that's missing is Shirley Maclaine in a Morrocan bernoose and cowl, advertising for the "Psychic Hotline." It's all there. That's my initial point. As regards Weissman, for me he is the walking moral black hole of GR, I find nothing even vaguely romantic about him. The thought that he, once routinized by "The System", manages to slither his way into whatever high-end post he ends up in the states hockets just fine into Shell = Nazi. When I read Weissmann's Tarot my reaction is just like my reaction concerning any news involving Karl Rove�"He's really getting away with this shit, isn't he?" I don't think any of us know where "White Man" ends and "They" begin. From joeallonby at gmail.com Sat Jul 12 10:09:09 2008 From: joeallonby at gmail.com (Joe Allonby) Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2008 10:09:09 -0500 Subject: Pynchon sighting In-Reply-To: <542099.12910.qm@web38406.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <542099.12910.qm@web38406.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: The NYT Book Review had Rushdie review Vineland. I thought it was a nice little in-joke: author in hiding reviews book by author in hiding. On Fri, Jul 11, 2008 at 6:56 PM, Mark Kohut wrote: > A friend of mine in Chicago went to hear Salman Rushdie read from his > latest book. He seemed to be bouyed by just having learned that Midnight's > Children was voted the Best of the Bookers.... > > Then she wrote me this: ",,,when asked about the literary influence of > Calvino and Pynchon, he admitted to being a "Pynchonista" and said, among > other things, that he had actually met him once."........... > > I'll bet it was when he was 'under the fatwa' and Pynchon > lived like he was/is. > > Rushdie did one of the most positive mainstream reviews of "Vineland". has > mentioned GR in interviews.... > > > > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From paul.mackin at verizon.net Sat Jul 12 10:08:01 2008 From: paul.mackin at verizon.net (Paul Mackin) Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2008 11:08:01 -0400 Subject: Repost: "The Big One" In-Reply-To: <071220081253.18729.4878A9490008A70E000049292216549976040A0B0E0A9C0B020E0402070D019D@comcast.net> References: <071220081253.18729.4878A9490008A70E000049292216549976040A0B0E0A9C0B020E0402070D019D@comcast.net> Message-ID: <4878C8D1.3070308@verizon.net> On what Robin calls his initial point, I for one do not find anything wrong with calling AtD Pynchon's Big One. It is Big, the biggest, and much of the writing is as good as it gets. My general view is that somewhere between Lot 49 and GR, Pynchon discovered how to write really well, and that skill never lets him down. I just didn't enjoy reading AtD as much as GR. Maybe GR was more sinister (to use Mike's word). For me it was better. I personally don't GET why everything in P's oeuvre needs to be tied together in AtD. On the topic of Spiritualism or the Metaphysical (in one sense of that word) that Robin emphasizes so much, I liked the topic's coverage in GR better. As regards Weissmann, it's true, his code of conduct is a little dicey. To appreciate W's worth, we readers must assume (for literary purposes only I'd advise) a "beyond good and evil" stance. Weissmann lives by passion, not reason or morality in the Christian sense. He IS supremely Romantic. Of course W's romanticism doesn't lie in his ending up in an American boardroom. That anti-romantic outcome is the irony of it all. I'm being a little heretical I realize, but as Robin sez Pynchon is into heresy. Actually writers HAVE to be heretical. Why else bother. P. robinlandseadel at comcast.net wrote: > Paul Mackin: > I thought we were talking about what the Tarot passage > conveys--not the views of the "far left" (presume you > mean people who blow shit up) or the "fun with the > revolution" left (Abbie Hoffman). > > Yes, it does seem like we have traversed quite far from the original > post and my original intent. > > Something I have yet to hear mentioned here: > What if “Against the Day “ turns out to be “The Big One”, > the one that ties it all together? > > I know that right now and for most of you, that's heresy. > > (big omissions because the post was getting too lond) > That's my initial point. > > As regards Weissman, for me he is the walking moral black hole > of GR, I find nothing even vaguely romantic about him. The thought > that he, once routinized by "The System", manages to slither his > way into whatever high-end post he ends up in the states hockets > just fine into Shell = Nazi. When I read Weissmann's Tarot my > reaction is just like my reaction concerning any news involving > Karl Rove—"He's really getting away with this shit, isn't he?" > > I don't think any of us know where "White Man" ends and "They" begin. > > > From against.the.dave at gmail.com Sat Jul 12 11:02:34 2008 From: against.the.dave at gmail.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2008 11:02:34 -0500 Subject: Pynchon sighting In-Reply-To: References: <542099.12910.qm@web38406.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On 7/12/08, Joe Allonby wrote: > The NYT Book Review had Rushdie review Vineland. I thought it was a nice > little in-joke: author in hiding reviews book by author in hiding. > > On Fri, Jul 11, 2008 at 6:56 PM, Mark Kohut wrote: > > > Rushdie did one of the most positive mainstream reviews of "Vineland". has > mentioned GR in interviews.... http://www.nytimes.com/books/97/05/18/reviews/pynchon-vineland.html http://www.themodernword.com/pynchon/review_nyt_vineland.html From robinlandseadel at comcast.net Sat Jul 12 11:13:30 2008 From: robinlandseadel at comcast.net (robinlandseadel at comcast.net) Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2008 16:13:30 +0000 Subject: Pynchon sighting Message-ID: <071220081613.23622.4878D82A000D489200005C462215555884040A0B0E0A9C0B020E0402070D019D@comcast.net> From: "Still Crazy After All These Years" The New York Times 14 January 1990 By Salman Rushdie . . . .Other things, too, have remained constant in the Pynchonian universe, where these are days of miracle and wonder, like ''Doonesbury'' written by Duke instead of Garry Trudeau, and the paranoia runs high because behind the heavy scenes and bad trips and Karmic Adjustments move the shadowy invisible forces, the true Masters of the Universe, ''the unrelenting forces that leaned ever after . . . into Time's wind, impassive in pursuit, usually gaining, the faceless predators . . . [who] had simply persisted, stone-humorless, beyond cause and effect, rejecting all attempts to bargain or accommodate, following through pools of night where nothing else moved wrongs forgotten by all but the direly possessed, continuing as a body to refuse to be bought off for any but the full price, which they had never named.'' That's what we're up against, folks, and what Mr. Pynchon used to set against it in the old days was entropy, seen as a slow, debauched, never-ending party, a perpetual coming-down, shapeless and meaningless and therefore unshaped and uncontrolled: freedom is chaos, he told us, but so is destruction, and that's the high wire, walk it if you can. And now here we are in ''Vineland,'' and the entropy's still flowing, but there's something new to report, some faint possibility of redemption, some fleeting hints of happiness and grace. Thomas Pynchon, like Paul Simon's girl in New York City, who calls herself the Human Trampoline, is bouncing into Graceland. Grace is the difference between pre- and post-GR Pynchon. From against.the.dave at gmail.com Sat Jul 12 11:20:07 2008 From: against.the.dave at gmail.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2008 11:20:07 -0500 Subject: Neal Stephenson lecture on whether genres matter anymore Message-ID: Here's a 40-minute talk that Neal Stephenson gave to Gresham College in London last May, discussing the nature of "literary genres" and why these distinctions are melting away.... http://www.boingboing.net/2008/07/11/neal-stephenson-lect.html From robinlandseadel at comcast.net Sat Jul 12 11:23:27 2008 From: robinlandseadel at comcast.net (robinlandseadel at comcast.net) Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2008 16:23:27 +0000 Subject: Pynchon sighting Message-ID: <071220081623.14303.4878DA7F000930FF000037DF2215555884040A0B0E0A9C0B020E0402070D019D@comcast.net> From: "Still Crazy After All These Years" The New York Times 14 January 1990 By Salman Rushdie . . . .Other things, too, have remained constant in the Pynchonian universe, where these are days of miracle and wonder, like ''Doonesbury'' written by Duke instead of Garry Trudeau, and the paranoia runs high because behind the heavy scenes and bad trips and Karmic Adjustments move the shadowy invisible forces, the true Masters of the Universe, ''the unrelenting forces that leaned ever after . . . into Time's wind, impassive in pursuit, usually gaining, the faceless predators . . . [who] had simply persisted, stone-humorless, beyond cause and effect, rejecting all attempts to bargain or accommodate, following through pools of night where nothing else moved wrongs forgotten by all but the direly possessed, continuing as a body to refuse to be bought off for any but the full price, which they had never named.'' That's what we're up against, folks, and what Mr. Pynchon used to set against it in the old days was entropy, seen as a slow, debauched, never-ending party, a perpetual coming-down, shapeless and meaningless and therefore unshaped and uncontrolled: freedom is chaos, he told us, but so is destruction, and that's the high wire, walk it if you can. And now here we are in ''Vineland,'' and the entropy's still flowing, but there's something new to report, some faint possibility of redemption, some fleeting hints of happiness and grace. Thomas Pynchon, like Paul Simon's girl in New York City, who calls herself the Human Trampoline, is bouncing into Graceland. . . . Grace is the difference between pre- and post-GR Pynchon. From robinlandseadel at comcast.net Sat Jul 12 11:24:13 2008 From: robinlandseadel at comcast.net (robinlandseadel at comcast.net) Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2008 16:24:13 +0000 Subject: Repost: "The Big One" Message-ID: <071220081624.15646.4878DAAD0009513F00003D1E2215555884040A0B0E0A9C0B020E0402070D019D@comcast.net> Paul Mackin: I just didn't enjoy reading AtD as much as GR. Maybe GR was more sinister (to use Mike's word). For me it was better. I really don't have a problem with that. That word "Sinister" is well worth looking at in the context of Magic, Religion & Heresy sinister definition sin�is�ter adjective ARCHAIC on, to, or toward the left-hand side; left HERALDRY on the left side of a shield (the right as seen by the viewer) threatening harm, evil, or misfortune; ominous; portentous sinister storm clouds wicked, evil, or dishonest, esp. in some dark, mysterious way a sinister plot most unfavorable or unfortunate; disastrous met a sinister fate Etymology: ME sinistre < L sinister, left-hand, or unlucky (side), orig. lucky (side) < IE base *sene-, to prepare, achieve > . . . . . .more favorable: early Roman augurs faced south, with the east (lucky side) to the left, but the Greeks (followed by later Romans) faced north Sinister" = "The Left Hand Path": http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Left-Hand_Path_and_Right-Hand_Path P: I personally don't GET why everything in P's oeuvre needs to be tied together in AtD. Me neither, and yet it is. OBA seeks interconnection everywhere. "Everything Connects." On the topic of Spiritualism or the Metaphysical (in one sense of that word) that Robin emphasizes so much, I liked the topic's coverage in GR better. The "Sinister" aspects rise to the surface in GR, it is his vision of hell, you know. And for many, understandably, "Sinister" is what Pynchon is all about, Lamont Cranston is one of the author's voices that folks are most attracted to. That "Sinister" literary tone color, that particular timbre is what makes Pynchon worth reading for many of his readers. Though there's plenty of left-handed activity going down in "Against the Day", the Narrator's Tone is the lightest of any of his books. Considering that one of the central topicks is light, we should not be too suprised. . . . .That anti-romantic outcome is the irony of it all. I'm being a little heretical I realize, but as Robin sez Pynchon is into heresy. Actually writers HAVE to be heretical. Why else bother. Yes, true. Pynchon pulls a Randy Newman in many of GR's passages, trying to get us inside the heads and hearts of monsters. Looking at the Pynchon family history, Heresy is central. It's a major subplot in the story of the British establishment of Colonies in "The New World," the William Pynchon/Slothrop story. From kipend at gmail.com Sat Jul 12 13:47:49 2008 From: kipend at gmail.com (David Kipen) Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2008 14:47:49 -0400 Subject: Pondering an M&D road trip... Message-ID: <3e91a77a0807121147p6a908eeel5164c95453c7922a@mail.gmail.com> Any of you ever try to trace Charles and Jeremiah's footsteps? Besides Himself, natch... All finest, David -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From scuffling at gmail.com Sat Jul 12 18:07:51 2008 From: scuffling at gmail.com (Henry) Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2008 19:07:51 -0400 Subject: Couples Tried in Essex for Pig Message-ID: <001501c8e474$1ccebff0$566c3fd0$@com> LONDON (AFP) - A bizarre ritual dating back to the 12th century in which the couple who can prove to a mock-court that they have the happiest marriage wins half a pig takes place today, Saturday, July 12. http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/lifestylebritainmarriageoffbeat;_ylt=AsiLuThmD3G ow_sr59RhkAMeO7gF Henry Mu Information, Media, and Technology Consultant http://my.barackobama.com/page/community/blog/henrymu From against.the.dave at gmail.com Sat Jul 12 23:10:49 2008 From: against.the.dave at gmail.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2008 23:10:49 -0500 Subject: The Samuel Johnson Sound Bite Page Message-ID: http://www.samueljohnson.com/ "How is it that we hear the loudest yelps for liberty among the drivers of negroes?" http://www.samueljohnson.com/popular.html From dpayne1912 at hotmail.com Sun Jul 13 02:31:35 2008 From: dpayne1912 at hotmail.com (David Payne) Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2008 07:31:35 +0000 Subject: Pondering an M&D road trip... In-Reply-To: <3e91a77a0807121147p6a908eeel5164c95453c7922a@mail.gmail.com> References: <3e91a77a0807121147p6a908eeel5164c95453c7922a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 12 Jul 2008 (14:47:49 -0400), David Kipend (kipend at gmail.com) wrote: > Any of you ever try to trace Charles and Jeremiah's footsteps? Besides Himself, natch... There are two different trips that you could plan: tracing C & J, or tracing TRP tracing C & J. If you are interested in tracing TRP tracing C & J (in the US), I'd recommend stopping in at these libraries, which I have, unfortunately, only been able to visit on the web: * The Historical Society of Pennsylvania: http://www.hsp.org/default.aspx?id=557 * The Library of the American Philosophical Society: http://www.amphilsoc.org/search/ * Maryland State Archives and the Archives of Maryland Online: http://www.msa.md.gov/ I feel quite certain that TRP hit all three of these libraries while researching M&D. Their relevant collections are absolutely stunning. You can find first-hand materials in these libraries that are (nearly?) quoted word-for-word in M&D. _________________________________________________________________ Making the world a better place one message at a time. http://www.imtalkathon.com/?source=EML_WLH_Talkathon_BetterPlace From dpayne1912 at hotmail.com Sun Jul 13 03:12:55 2008 From: dpayne1912 at hotmail.com (David Payne) Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2008 08:12:55 +0000 Subject: Repost: "The Big One" In-Reply-To: <8CAB1B2CC606104-1488-2D96@WEBMAIL-MC03.sysops.aol.com> References: <4877BEDB.9060503@verizon.net> <8CAB1B2CC606104-1488-2D96@WEBMAIL-MC03.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 11 Jul 2008 (17:18:29 -0400), malignd at aol.com wrote: It sounds like a fun thing to do. Before I started lurking on this list (back in 2003?) I think that a couple of p-listers actually made a pilgrimage to some of the stone markers (maybe during the group read of M&D?). My own experience was more modest, but certainly unforgettable. I had just finished reading M&D and we (me, my husband and our three kids) were visiting friends in Maryland, from whence we were going to visit friends in Harrisburg, PA. So naturally, I suggested we look for the Mason-Dixon line. We found a website http://www.mdlpp.org/ (unfortunately it's under construction at the moment, but there must be others) which gave us the locations of the stone markers that were still there and instructions for finding them. We headed for one that was in the general area where we'd be crossing the border. It was located in a privately owned field, but the website said the owners didn't mind people stopping to look. We were a little uncertain about the whole thing but stopped in at a local historical society, about a mile from the Maryland-Pennsylvania border. The nice people there had heard of the Mason-Dixon line but were pretty sure it was located somewhere in the Deep South. We drove a mile to the border, located the field, hopped out of the car and found ourselves (all 5 of us) shin deep in freshly spread cow manure. With little option, we pressed on and found the marker. It was actually really exciting to find as it was in good condition and the M and P were very legible. After that, it was a sad story. We had to discard our shoes and socks. We drove around the Gettysburg area desperately looking for a shoe store. People kept directing us to stores that sold antique boots for Civil War reenactments. Finally, we found a soulless, suburban shoe emporium that was understaffed enough so that no one threw us out when we all walked in barefoot. It's a history lesson my kids will never forget. Have fun and tell us all about it! Laura -----Original Message----- >From: David Payne >Sent: Jul 13, 2008 3:31 AM >To: kipend at arts.gov, P-list >Subject: RE: Pondering an M&D road trip... > > >On Sat, 12 Jul 2008 (14:47:49 -0400), David Kipend (kipend at gmail.com) wrote: > >> Any of you ever try to trace Charles and Jeremiah's footsteps? Besides Himself, natch... > >There are two different trips that you could plan: tracing C & J, or tracing TRP tracing C & J. > >If you are interested in tracing TRP tracing C & J (in the US), I'd recommend stopping in at these libraries, which I have, unfortunately, only been able to visit on the web: > >* The Historical Society of Pennsylvania: http://www.hsp.org/default.aspx?id=557 > >* The Library of the American Philosophical Society: http://www.amphilsoc.org/search/ > >* Maryland State Archives and the Archives of Maryland Online: http://www.msa.md.gov/ > >I feel quite certain that TRP hit all three of these libraries while researching M&D. Their relevant collections are absolutely stunning. You can find first-hand materials in these libraries that are (nearly?) quoted word-for-word in M&D. >_________________________________________________________________ >Making the world a better place one message at a time. >http://www.imtalkathon.com/?source=EML_WLH_Talkathon_BetterPlace From markekohut at yahoo.com Sun Jul 13 09:23:34 2008 From: markekohut at yahoo.com (Mark Kohut) Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2008 07:23:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ....."Or we wouldn't need light"....news imitates AtD... Message-ID: <600051.15565.qm@web38404.mail.mud.yahoo.com> If those issues are dealt with, "We're about to go into the most exciting period of human history," Clinton said. "If we don't, in the words of President Roosevelt, dark will be the future," he said. "I'm betting on light—I hope you are, too." From markekohut at yahoo.com Sun Jul 13 09:34:33 2008 From: markekohut at yahoo.com (Mark Kohut) Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2008 07:34:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Repost: "The Big One" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <475300.38401.qm@web38405.mail.mud.yahoo.com> As, it seems, the lone contrarian voice, I will risk being wrong again: There is as much 'moral nuance' in "Against the Day", at least, as in almost any writer. Presenting such nuances may be one of TRPs deepest themes here, i.e. a vision of life in History that has a fuller range---see Light Over the Ranges---than in any other of his books. --- On Sun, 7/13/08, David Payne wrote: > From: David Payne > Subject: RE: Repost: "The Big One" > To: malignd at aol.com, pynchon-l at waste.org > Date: Sunday, July 13, 2008, 4:12 AM > On Fri, 11 Jul 2008 (17:18:29 -0400), malignd at aol.com wrote: > > > That's funny sh^t, man, but, umm, just for the record, > when I said "morally flat," I did not mean > morally void, I meant morally un-nuanced. > > Like, for example, a moral vision that collapses everyone > into Nazis or Abbie Hoffman--that's morally flat. As is > a vision that sees Capitalism as the Right for all Wrongs. > Or a vision that sees Lex Luther as the archnemesis of > Superman. Or a vision that sees the Jews as the evil that > must be exterminated by the Supermen. > > Flattening morality is a common trick, practiced by > revolutionaries (Public Enemy? Bush? ), the status quo > (Reagan? Bush?), satarists (Bush? Dante?), and simpletons > (Homer Simpson? Bush?). > > Moral nuance is also a common trick, supposedly practiced > by con men, lovers, and novelists. > > I am perfectly willing to concede the point (i.e., Pynchon > creates novels that place characters in a morally-flat > universe) if faced with a nuanced (or sinister) argument, > but--my thinking right now--it seems to me that Pynchon > often flattens morality into good guys vs. bad guys as a > satirist's (sp? -- one who creates satire?) tool in > order to issue moral clarity and comic relieve. > > I dig Pynchon, but I do not turn to his novels for solace > when I feel temptation, a morally gray world tugging me on > all three sides ... his characters fight the powers that > be, or they die, or they *are* (gasp!) the powers that be. > > So till sweet death do us part, may Dog have mercy. But > don't tell nobody. > _________________________________________________________________ > Making the world a better place one message at a time. > http://www.imtalkathon.com/?source=EML_WLH_Talkathon_BetterPlace From scuffling at gmail.com Sun Jul 13 09:43:16 2008 From: scuffling at gmail.com (Henry) Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2008 10:43:16 -0400 Subject: Pondering an M&D road trip... In-Reply-To: <10937403.1215958092970.JavaMail.root@elwamui-huard.atl.sa.earthlink.net> References: <10937403.1215958092970.JavaMail.root@elwamui-huard.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <000b01c8e4f6$c9842eb0$5c8c8c10$@com> Great story, Laura! A few of us rebs met up with some of the NY Yankee P-Listers in Newark, uh, Delaware, and we drove around Until we found a marker Not long before it started to get darker. The ground was too muddy for one of the women, but none of the cow-men knew her! (It really was muddy, but all were valiant!) I still have the pics that we took, one of a few inside and one whole-sick-crew-shot outside of the tavern where we stopped for libations. I remember that when we had an end-of-the-night desert at a diner, the waitress had never heard of having cheddar with your apple pie. Oh, my! HENRY MUSIKAR Information, Media, and Technology Consultant http://my.barackobama.com/page/community/blog/henrymu -----Original Message----- From: Laura Kelber It sounds like a fun thing to do. Before I started lurking on this list (back in 2003?) I think that a couple of p-listers actually made a pilgrimage to some of the stone markers (maybe during the group read of M&D?). My own experience was more modest, but certainly unforgettable. I had just finished reading M&D and we (me, my husband and our three kids) were visiting friends in Maryland, from whence we were going to visit friends in Harrisburg, PA. So naturally, I suggested we look for the Mason-Dixon line. We found a website http://www.mdlpp.org/ (unfortunately it's under construction at the moment, but there must be others) which gave us the locations of the stone markers that were still there and instructions for finding them. We headed for one that was in the general area where we'd be crossing the border. It was located in a privately owned field, but the website said the owners didn't mind people stopping to look. We were a little uncertain about the whole thing but stopped in at a local historical society, about a mile from the Maryland-Pennsylvania border. The nice people there had heard of the Mason-Dixon line but were pretty sure it was located somewhere in the Deep South. We drove a mile to the border, located the field, hopped out of the car and found ourselves (all 5 of us) shin deep in freshly spread cow manure. With little option, we pressed on and found the marker. It was actually really exciting to find as it was in good condition and the M and P were very legible. After that, it was a sad story. We had to discard our shoes and socks. We drove around the Gettysburg area desperately looking for a shoe store. People kept directing us to stores that sold antique boots for Civil War reenactments. Finally, we found a soulless, suburban shoe emporium that was understaffed enough so that no one threw us out when we all walked in barefoot. It's a history lesson my kids will never forget. Have fun and tell us all about it! Laura From robinlandseadel at comcast.net Sun Jul 13 12:30:34 2008 From: robinlandseadel at comcast.net (robinlandseadel at comcast.net) Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2008 17:30:34 +0000 Subject: Repost: "The Big One" Message-ID: <071320081730.27104.487A3BBA00084E09000069E022155786740A0D0E0C0C0304070E09@comcast.net> Mark Kohut : As, it seems, the lone contrarian voice, I will risk being wrong again: Plenty of "Contrary" goin'' on 'round here, buddah. Square one: Pynchon is a Satirist, he deals in caricatures, "Extremes & in Betweens" to cite Chuck Jones, an obvious role model. The man simply can't help himself, he's into the black humor of it all as much as anyone else. It's not that man's incapable of nuance [obviously], it's that he's so keen on cartoons: ". . . .May Road Runner cartoons never vanish from the video waves, is my attitude. . . ." . . . .yeah, yeah, I know�way the hell outta context. But: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6pje1Ebc5v0 From joeallonby at gmail.com Sun Jul 13 13:52:41 2008 From: joeallonby at gmail.com (Joe Allonby) Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2008 14:52:41 -0400 Subject: Repost: "The Big One" In-Reply-To: <071320081730.27104.487A3BBA00084E09000069E022155786740A0D0E0C0C0304070E09@comcast.net> References: <071320081730.27104.487A3BBA00084E09000069E022155786740A0D0E0C0C0304070E09@comcast.net> Message-ID: The first time that I drove across the Utah Canyonlands I boggled. "Holy Shit! It's a Roadrunner cartoon!" On Sun, Jul 13, 2008 at 1:30 PM, wrote: > Mark Kohut : > As, it seems, the lone contrarian voice, > I will risk being wrong again: > > Plenty of "Contrary" goin'' on 'round here, buddah. > > Square one: Pynchon is a Satirist, he deals in caricatures, > "Extremes & in Betweens" to cite Chuck Jones, an obvious role model. > The man simply can't help himself, he's into the black humor > of it all as much as anyone else. It's not that man's incapable > of nuance [obviously], it's that he's so keen on cartoons: > > ". . . .May Road Runner cartoons never vanish from > the video waves, is my attitude. . . ." > > . . . .yeah, yeah, I know—way the hell outta context. > > But: > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6pje1Ebc5v0 > > > > > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From joeallonby at gmail.com Sun Jul 13 13:57:04 2008 From: joeallonby at gmail.com (Joe Allonby) Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2008 14:57:04 -0400 Subject: NYT Book Review Message-ID: Two mentions of TRP in today's NYTBR. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bekker2 at mac.com Sun Jul 13 15:36:49 2008 From: bekker2 at mac.com (Bekah) Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2008 13:36:49 -0700 Subject: AtD: (36) pages 1018-1029 Message-ID: <4836E863-DD92-4CEC-9970-CF8D3BDB6303@mac.com> Next action section: Chums of Chance The prior section took place on April 20, 1914 - This one starts a few months later. page 1018: "The summer of 1914 found the Chums in heat stricken Europe ..." http://tinyurl.com/6ymapc (Also, I believe Barbara Tuchman in "The Guns of August" made mention of a heat wave in the summer of 1914.) "... when they hear of a huge updraft over the Sahara desert. " Wasn't there something about the African desert in (33)? The Inconvenience, along with other ships, has disaffiliated from the National Office which has even vacated its premises. The ships have only a loose connection to other ships with "Chums of Chance" name and insignia. **************** page 1019 This has increased flow of revenue so the Inconvenience adds better engines and increase the size of the mess hall and a cooking staff including a sous (2nd in command) chef from Tour d'Argent (specializes in duck) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tour_d'Argent Chinese gong from assassination cult in Boxer Rebellion "The Chums of Chance and the Wrath of the Yellow Fang" Boxer Rebellion - 1899 - 1901 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ Boxer_Rebellion The 1903 Verzenay champaign http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:Verzenay_moulin.jpg Darby opposes just going - wants someone to pay in advance for adventures. Pugnax' friend - Ksenija, a Macedonian sarplaninec sheepdog - http://www.unet.com.mk/sharplaninec/history.htm (nice - this dog is shaggy and beautiful imo) Yes, they would go - unanimous - Darby too. The boys apparently ride a huge updraft (sandstorm or enormous dust devil) over the deserts of North Africa out to sea - going northwest. Saharran anti-gravity strangely red cylindrical cloud - sands eternally ascending http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Sahara_dust_plume_Nov_1998.jpg Could be a haboob: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haboob a Sirocco? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Sirocco_from_Libya.jpg (goes the wrong way, though) **************** Page 1020 pure aerodynamic lift - anti-paradise (anti-paradise equates to hell? - traveling up in a saharan dust storm might equate to that Randolph: "... if going up is like going north, with the common variable being cold, the analogous direction in Time, by the Second Law of Thermodynamics ought to be from past to future, in the direction of increasing entropy." "Going up would be like going north. - go high enough to descend to another planet. " Or, as the commander had put it then, 'Another "surface" but an earthly one. ... all too earthly. ' " "...each star and planet we can see in the sky is but the reflection of our single Earth along a different Minkowskian space- time track http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minkowski_space http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hermann_Minkowski If each surface is the reflection of our own, and if going up is like going North, both cold, then the analogous Time element would be from Past to Future with increasing entropy. So... the ship is going up but the instrument readings say down - to a surface none could see. "... an antique but reliable sympiezometer..." from little known Battle of Desconocido (sp. trans = "unknown") California sympiezometer: A type of barometer whereby the liquid is suspended below air or other gas rather than a vacuum, so that the atmospheric pressure acts against the weight of the liquid and the pressure of the gas. http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/sympiezometer Hypops gear from Inner Asia assignment (for travel under sand) From page 426 - Hypopsammotic... Hypops Hypo- (under) + psammot- (sand, from Greek psammos) Mountains of the Moon "A small mountain range in central Africa between Uganda and the Democratic Republic of the Congo, long though falsely supposed to be the source of the Nile. Today called the Ruwenzori Range." about to crash into a range of obsidian mountains with red highlights, razor-sharp crestlines and vaporous twilight. "Lighten Ship!" and they escaped a crash with "inches to spare." (lol) **************** Page 1021 Randolph and Lindsay can find no maps to match the terrain - decide that it's the Pythagorean or Counter-Earth once postulated by Philolause of Tarentum See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Counter-Earth From: http://www.dmoz.org/Society/Philosophy/Philosophers/P/desc.html "Philolaus (Philolaus of Croton, Philolaus of Tarentum), fl. 5th century BC. A leading Pythagorean philosopher who survived the persecution of that school. He is widely attributed with having originated the theory of spherical universe." and From: http://scienceworld.wolfram.com/biography/Pythagoras.html "In keeping with the assumed magical properties of the number ten, some of the Pythagoreans, led by Philolaus, added a tenth "wanderer" and proposed that there existed a counter-earth which, together with the earth and other "planets," orbited a central fire. Pythagoras believed that the planets produced sounds while tracing out their orbits, producing the "harmony of the spheres." While much of their studies were sheer mysticism, the Pythagoreans were the first to mathematicize the universe." Foundational Memorandum from the Star Trek Prime Directive http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prime_directive Pythagorean Earth - Philolaus believed that only one side of our Earth was inhabited. The other Earth he called Antichthon which was why nobody eveer saw it. See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Counter-Earth Antichthon is the Greek word for Counter-Earth They were on the other earth but also on the Earth they had never left. They came to understand that they were lost - deposited on another Earth. Safely back on Earth? "Deposited by the great Saharan updraft on a planet from which they remained uncertain as to the chances of return, the boys could almost believe some days that they were safely back home on Earth - on others they found an American Republic whose welfare they believed they were sworn to advance passed so irrevocably into the control of the evil and moronic that it seemed they could not, after all, have escaped the gravity of the Counter-Earth. Sworn by their Foundational Memorandum never to interfere in the affairs of the "groundhogs," they looked on in helplessness and a depression of spirit new to them." (Why did they believe they were sworn to advance the welfare of the American Republic?) But now the boys had less revenue from travel and more from business and investments they wonder if days of global adventure are behind them. Early autumn 1914 - when the war was really starting - Russian agent "Baklashchan" (an alias) visits wondering about Igor Padzhitnoff who has been missing since summer. Actually, "The Great Game" has been lost - Pazhitnoff and Tetris (the great game) are related - "The Great Game" is what was played out in the years 1813 - 1907 between England and Russia over the fate of Central Asia - ("The Great Game" by Peter Hopkirk - great book.) The Chums are unaware of the current "world situation" and Baklashchan is not allowed to share info (old agreements). Despite the "Eleventh Commandment" - boys agreed. Payment in gold - in a Baktrian Camel. a short, two humps, Asian camel - http://tinyurl.com/3p9ozt Please regard our regards to the Tsar and his family - we should be seeing them quite soon said Baklashchan. (apparently a monarchist). Baklashchan Possibly a pun: "backlash chan" -- the land of backlashes. Has resonance with Baluchistan palteau found in the area of Pakistan, Iran and Afghanistan. Or can refer to a backlash as in a reactionary political/social movement? Bactrian camel Dromedary vs. Bactrian: the mnemonic says count the humps in the first letter. Bactrian, two humps. One could say, a "bi-cameral" camel -- the "bi" motiff appears again. Also, this is the second mention of the bactrian camel. The first is on p. 431. full moon Assuming this scene takes place on the same planet we are on now, the first full moon of the early autumn of 1914 took place at exactly, 5:59 am. (UT/GMT) on October 4th. Since the moon is almost full here, this scene probably took place on the night of Oct. 2 or 3rd. I have not found any event of note correlating with these dates -- though Jack Whiteside Parsons, occultist and JPL co-founder was born on October 2nd, 1914. And if you read his bio, this guy belongs in a Pynchon novel. World-Island See annotation at page 433 And WWI is on: "Something very peculiar indeed was going on down on the Surface ... Entire blocks of sky were posted as off limits.... great explosions of a deep ... intensity... skycraft (to) groan... unexpected shortages... champagne suspended ... countryside torn up with trenches." "Trenches" Miles said, as if it were a foreign technical term. " http://tinyurl.com/6koq6q **************** Page 1023 Miles was aware in some dim way that this, long unspoken agreement - that when they learned to fly, they paid with a waiver of allegiance to it and all that would occur on it. (So they can't really be involved - but still, why the allegiance to America?) They fly from place to place on this counter planet. Pazhitnoff is always a step ahead. "We're chasing ourselves now. We always knew he was haunting us." (History haunts us?) Miles: " 'Are ghosts dreadful because they bring toward us in some from the future some component - in the vectorial sense, of our own deaths? Are they partially, defectively, our own dead selves, thrust back, in recoil from the mirrorface at the end, to haunt us?' " Miles remembers West Flanders and the prophecy of Ray Thorn. page 553-555, Ray Thorn is apparently a "trespasser" who knows the future and has predicted WWI and Flanders Field. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_I_casualties Flanders Field was at Ypres. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In_Flanders_Fields And then the incredible sentence: "They knew they were standing before a great chasm none could see to the bottom of. But they launched themselves into it ... " (next page) **************** Page 1024 ... anyway. Cheering and laughing. It was their own "Adventure." They were juvenile heroes of a World-Narrative - unreflective and free, they went on hurling themselves into those depths by tens of thousands until one day they awoke, those who were still alive, and instead of finding themselves posed nobly against some dramatic moral geography, they were down crying in a mud trench swarming with rats and smelling of shit and death." They find Pazhitnoff but the ship's Romanoff crest has been changed to read- "Pomne o Golodayushchiki" which means, "Remember the Starving" and it's on red. This is probably about mid February 1917 because they will shortly be doing something that took place in March. Pomne o Golodayushchiki Russian: Remember the Starving. Incorrect. Should be: Pomni o Golodayushchikh. "Dobro pozhalovaat" / "Welcome." He's taken down the Tsarist stuff and is now in hiding from the current regime. There is no more Okhrana, Tsar's secret police, so Pazhitnoff's ship now flies medical supplies to whomever is in need. Tsar-Bell of Moscow Famous bell that proved too heavy for the tower it was intended for; it was displayed on the ground for centuries (and may still be). See Tsar Kolokol & its picture. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tsar_Bell cranberry-flavored beer Kvass, traditional Russian beverage made by fermenting a mash of stale rye bread. It can be flavored with, among other things, cranberries. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kvass Great global influenza epidemic (March 1918 - 1919) http://virus.stanford.edu/uda/ and quite a few books lately. **************** Page 1025 "These days I think we are fugitives..." - About Baklashchan, Pazhitnoff says he is a "podlets - a cringer." Russia and Reform by Bernard Peres - pg 327 (pub. 1907) : "It has been said, In Russia don't be born clever, but be born a 'cringer," a ('a podlets.')" - scoundrel http://tinyurl.com/67ft8b 1025:35-38, "... artillery shells ... reaching the tops of their trajectories and pausing in the air for an instant before the deadly plunge back to Earth." But this time, the Rainbow of Gravity is observed from above, a reverse parabola.) http://chumpsofchoice.blogspot.com/2007/11/remember-starving.html The Chums don't turn Pazhitnoff in and they all hide out in the mountains. Shtab (Shtab (n.m.) means staff in Russian) http://tinyurl.com/64sv8v Probably the ICRC - International Red Cross and Red Cresent http://www.answers.com/topic/red-cross is in Switzxerland. Dunant recruited everyone he could to help him found the Red Cross including a chocolate manufacturer (back in 1859) . http://www.ehl.icrc.org/images/stories/resources/1A/1a_stories_comp.pdf "(Dunant) wrote a small book called A Memory of Solferino, in which he described what he had seen and made a simple proposal: Would it not be possible in time of peace and quiet to form relief societies for the purpose of having care given to the wounded in wartime by zealous, devoted and thoroughly qualified volunteers? The book led to the formation of the “International Committee for the relief of military wounded,” which evolved into the International Committee of the Red Cross. His vision also led to the development of Red Cross and Red Crescent societies around the world." There is a disagreement about whether or not to turn Pazhitnoff in. fight - bad words - "English Slander of Women act of 1891 http://tinyurl.com/5db6fq explostions and buzzing of military aircraft - searchlights of evening **************** Page 1026 Battle of Verdun http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Verdun Mount Blanc Mount Blanc, with a height of 15,800 ft at its summit, is the highest mountain in Western Europe. It is situated at the French/Italian border with each country claims the summit as her own. Mount Blanc is one of the most visited tourist destinations in the world. the Revolution On November 7, 1917, the Russian Bolsheviks overthrew Alexander Kerensky's democratic Provisional Government in Petrograd (St Petersburg) in a virtually bloodless coup. See November Revolution. ostinati In music, ostinato refers to a short phrase that is repeated several times. The 2-note bass pattern from "Jaws" is an ostinato, as is the opening bass part to "Sweet Emotion" by Aerosmith and the bass part to Pachelbel's Canon. Any repeated riff in a rock song is an ostinato, from the opening guitar riff of "(I Can't Get No) Satisfaction" by the Rolling Stones to the voiced "Take a Chance"s by ABBA. Staccato is a direction in music meaning that the notes should be performed in an abrupt, sharp, clear-cut manner. It certainly pertains to machine-gun fire and Pynchon has the ostinati and the staccato "scored", which is also a musical term meaning the wriiten form of a musical composition. **************** Page 1027 Swiss compassion - trains with passengers were greeted with flowers - schnapps, chocolate, War is horrendous - In Swiss - other side of tapestry - work - cargo jobs sugar, cooking fat, pasta - waiting in border towns - redistributing hay, cheese during famines (chronic) across borders - oranges wheat - Paddy appears - announces promotion - no more cargo - now personnel Special situation - internees by train was inadvisable - not repatriated - who is being transported? the negotiated exit in 1920 of the anti-Bolshevik Czech Legion, which had held much of the Trans-Siberian Railroad (cf. pp. 269, 567, 752...) Needs speed - in Balkans - Siberia - to negotiate for Japanese expeditionary Polchak's government shot at - new experience - not personal - their involvement had not begun until they had taken refuge on neutral ground Paddy after long night in bars - happened to cross paths with Randolph **************** Page 1028 what is it Paddy wonders. Nothing special - Eclisiastical - Marimas - -Bell of Cathedral rings - all bells join. In Europe something called Armistice had taken effect. Martinmas Feast day of St. Martin of Tours, November 11. an armistice The agreement between the Germans and the Allies to end World War I on November 11, 1918. **************** Page 1029 Consequences may never end They certainly haven't. The Balkans remain a powderkeg, and the Iraq War is a direct consequence of the destruction and partition of the Ottoman Empire in World war I. But the consequences of any act never really end... Nebo-tovarishch Russian: sky-comrade. A grammatically incorrect compound. It comes out as if the sky is the comrade. Should be something like tovarishch po nebu or nebesnyi tovarishch. repeating great vertical circles Like hot-air balloons (nondirigibles) in the "box" outside Albuquerque, New Mexico. standard cubic feet Measure of quantity of gas: number of cubic feet that would be occupied if the gas were at "standard conditions," i.e., 60 degrees Fahrenheit (usually) and 1 atmosphere or 14.7 pounds per square inch **************** From kelber at mindspring.com Sun Jul 13 17:06:37 2008 From: kelber at mindspring.com (kelber at mindspring.com) Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2008 18:06:37 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Repost: The Big One Message-ID: <9425897.1215986797683.JavaMail.root@elwamui-huard.atl.sa.earthlink.net> No, you're not alone in seeing the moral nuance, Mark. When he writes of IG Farben or the Ludlow Massacre, there's not a whole lot of room for moral nuance. I don't know of any essays written by anyone (correct me someone if I'm wrong) that show that the Rockefeller's actions in the Ludlow massacre were based on a genuinely moral outlook. You don't need to be a moralizing prig to come down on the side of the miners. When we're talking about whether TRP's writing is morally flat or un-nuanced, the implication is that he's somewhat of a prig or at least a knee-jerker. When he writes about WWI or the aftermath of the Mexican Revolution (Madero presidency) he's aware that there are no good guys to side with. In the sequence where Frank dynamites a moving train in a collision course with Federales, knowingly causing untold human and animal deaths, he's become uncomfortably aware that he's going through the motions (and deadly motions they are); he no longer knows or much cares what he's fighting for. Then TRP's morality kicks in: the morality of the state of grace, the Buddhist viewpoint: (p. 985): " ... suddenly the day had become extradimensional, the country shifted, was no longer the desert abstraction of a map but was speed, air rushing, the smell of smoke and steam, time whose substance grew more condensed as each tick came faster and faster, all perfectly inseparable from Frank's certainty that jumping or not jumping was no longer the point, he belonged to what was happening ..." Faced with the moral chaos of WWI, the Mexican devolution, the post 9-11 world, the only choice (I think he's saying) is to view the world in its proper perspective, as it is, nothing more. This may be moralizing, but it's neither flat or un-nuanced. Laura -----Original Message----- >From: Mark Kohut >Sent: Jul 13, 2008 10:34 AM >To: David Payne >Cc: pynchon -l >Subject: RE: Repost: "The Big One" > >As, it seems, the lone contrarian voice, I will risk being wrong again: > >There is as much 'moral nuance' in "Against the Day", at least, as in >almost any writer. > >Presenting such nuances may be one of TRPs deepest themes here, i.e. a vision of life in History that has a fuller range---see Light Over the Ranges---than in any other of his books. > > >--- On Sun, 7/13/08, David Payne wrote: > >> From: David Payne >> Subject: RE: Repost: "The Big One" >> To: malignd at aol.com, pynchon-l at waste.org >> Date: Sunday, July 13, 2008, 4:12 AM >> On Fri, 11 Jul 2008 (17:18:29 -0400), malignd at aol.com wrote: >> >> > >> That's funny sh^t, man, but, umm, just for the record, >> when I said "morally flat," I did not mean >> morally void, I meant morally un-nuanced. >> >> Like, for example, a moral vision that collapses everyone >> into Nazis or Abbie Hoffman--that's morally flat. As is >> a vision that sees Capitalism as the Right for all Wrongs. >> Or a vision that sees Lex Luther as the archnemesis of >> Superman. Or a vision that sees the Jews as the evil that >> must be exterminated by the Supermen. >> >> Flattening morality is a common trick, practiced by >> revolutionaries (Public Enemy? Bush? ), the status quo >> (Reagan? Bush?), satarists (Bush? Dante?), and simpletons >> (Homer Simpson? Bush?). >> >> Moral nuance is also a common trick, supposedly practiced >> by con men, lovers, and novelists. >> >> I am perfectly willing to concede the point (i.e., Pynchon >> creates novels that place characters in a morally-flat >> universe) if faced with a nuanced (or sinister) argument, >> but--my thinking right now--it seems to me that Pynchon >> often flattens morality into good guys vs. bad guys as a >> satirist's (sp? -- one who creates satire?) tool in >> order to issue moral clarity and comic relieve. >> >> I dig Pynchon, but I do not turn to his novels for solace >> when I feel temptation, a morally gray world tugging me on >> all three sides ... his characters fight the powers that >> be, or they die, or they *are* (gasp!) the powers that be. >> >> So till sweet death do us part, may Dog have mercy. But >> don't tell nobody. From robinlandseadel at comcast.net Sun Jul 13 18:44:49 2008 From: robinlandseadel at comcast.net (robinlandseadel at comcast.net) Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2008 23:44:49 +0000 Subject: Repost: The Big One Message-ID: <071320082344.6906.487A93710002986100001AFA2215568884040A0B0E0A9C0B020E0402070D019D@comcast.net> Laura: No, you're not alone in seeing the moral nuance, Mark. When he writes of IG Farben or the Ludlow Massacre, there's not a whole lot of room for moral nuance. I don't know of any essays written by anyone (correct me someone if I'm wrong) that show that the Rockefeller's actions in the Ludlow massacre were based on a genuinely moral outlook. You don't need to be a moralizing prig to come down on the side of the miners. . . . . . . . and if you're willing to take the Red Pill and go pedal to the metal paranoid on the subject of the Rockefeller/Bush/Big Oil axis of evil, oozing from AtD into GR and then on in to our present day; note how consistently, in OBA's revisionist fictions, that crew gets to be "Worst Persons of the Novel." Coincidence? I think not . . . . From malignd at aol.com Sun Jul 13 20:46:50 2008 From: malignd at aol.com (malignd at aol.com) Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2008 21:46:50 -0400 Subject: Repost: "The Big One" In-Reply-To: <48783891.9000806@verizon.net> References: <8CAB1B2CC606104-1488-2D96@WEBMAIL-MC03.sysops.aol.com> <48783891.9000806@verizon.net> Message-ID: <8CAB36A9E37412C-12D8-868@WEBMAIL-DC05.sysops.aol.com> <> All I'm saying is that Pynchon's sides are obviously taken.  The Counterforce, for Chrissake?  He's not subtle. -----Original Message----- From: Paul Mackin To: pynchon-l at waste.org Sent: Sat, 12 Jul 2008 12:52 am Subject: Re: Repost: "The Big One" malignd at aol.com wrote:  >  > < possible. >>  >  >  > Very little reading into is called for.  >    In which case I would recommend doing some UNreading OUT.    Reader nullification, as it were.    Mickey Messer sez, First the beefsteak, then the moral.    Why not, First the beefsteak, skip the moral.    The main course is filling enough.    P.            >  > ------------------------------------------------------------------------  > The Famous, the Infamous, the Lame - in your browser. Get the TMZ > Toolbar Now > !    -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From malignd at aol.com Sun Jul 13 20:53:58 2008 From: malignd at aol.com (malignd at aol.com) Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2008 21:53:58 -0400 Subject: Repost: "The Big One" In-Reply-To: References: <4877BEDB.9060503@verizon.net> <8CAB1B2CC606104-1488-2D96@WEBMAIL-MC03.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <8CAB36B9D4082D2-12D8-8A5@WEBMAIL-DC05.sysops.aol.com> > et al My note was in response to Paul Mackin, not you. So far as I can tell from the rest of your post, we agree. -----Original Message----- From: David Payne To: malignd at aol.com; pynchon-l at waste.org Sent: Sun, 13 Jul 2008 4:12 am Subject: RE: Repost: "The Big One" On Fri, 11 Jul 2008 (17:18:29 -0400), malignd at aol.com wrote: From malignd at aol.com Sun Jul 13 21:01:29 2008 From: malignd at aol.com (malignd at aol.com) Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2008 22:01:29 -0400 Subject: Repost: The Big One In-Reply-To: <9425897.1215986797683.JavaMail.root@elwamui-huard.atl.sa.earthlink.net> References: <9425897.1215986797683.JavaMail.root@elwamui-huard.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <8CAB36CAA1245A8-12D8-8EF@WEBMAIL-DC05.sysops.aol.com> <> Just wondering: do you have any knowledge of IG Farben or the Ludlow massacre outside of your reading in Pynchon? If not, your taking his point of view to argue for the correctness of his point of view. -----Original Message----- From: kelber at mindspring.com To: pynchon-l at waste.org Sent: Sun, 13 Jul 2008 6:06 pm Subject: Re: Repost: The Big One No, you're not alone in seeing the moral nuance, Mark. When he writes of IG Farben or the Ludlow Massacre, there's not a whole lot of room for moral nuance. I don't know of any essays written by anyone (correct me someone if I'm wrong) that show that the Rockefeller's actions in the Ludlow massacre were based on a genuinely moral outlook. You don't need to be a moralizing prig to come down on the side of the miners. When we're talking about whether TRP's writing is morally flat or un-nuanced, the implication is that he's somewhat of a prig or at least a knee-jerker. When he writes about WWI or the aftermath of the Mexican Revolution (Madero presidency) he's aware that there are no good guys to side with. In the sequence where Frank dynamites a moving train in a collision course with Federales, knowingly causing untold human and animal deaths, he's become uncomfortably aware that he's going through the motions (and deadly motions they are); he no longer knows or much cares what he's fighting for. Then TRP's morality kicks in: the morality of the state of grace, the Buddhist viewpoint: (p. 985): " ... suddenly the day had become extradimensional, the country shifted, was no longer the desert abstraction of a map but was speed, air rushing, the smell of smoke and steam, time whose substance grew more condensed as each tick came faster and faster, all perfectly inseparable from Frank's certainty that jumping or not jumping was no longer the point, he belonged to what was happening ..." Faced with the moral chaos of WWI, the Mexican devolution, the post 9-11 world, the only choice (I think he's saying) is to view the world in its proper perspective, as it is, nothing more. This may be moralizing, but it's neither flat or un-nuanced. Laura -----Original Message----- >From: Mark Kohut >Sent: Jul 13, 2008 10:34 AM >To: David Payne >Cc: pynchon -l >Subject: RE: Repost: "The Big One" > >As, it seems, the lone contrarian voice, I will risk being wrong again: > >There is as much 'moral nuance' in "Against the Day", at least, as in >almost any writer. > >Presenting such nuances may be one of TRPs deepest themes here, i.e. a vision of life in History that has a fuller range---see Light Over the Ranges---than in any other of his books. > > >--- On Sun, 7/13/08, David Payne wrote: > >> From: David Payne >> Subject: RE: Repost: "The Big One" >> To: malignd at aol.com, pynchon-l at waste.org >> Date: Sunday, July 13, 2008, 4:12 AM >> On Fri, 11 Jul 2008 (17:18:29 -0400), malignd at aol.com wrote: >> >> > >> That's funny sh^t, man, but, umm, just for the record, >> when I said "morally flat," I did not mean >> morally void, I meant morally un-nuanced. >> >> Like, for example, a moral vision that collapses everyone >> into Nazis or Abbie Hoffman--that's morally flat. As is >> a vision that sees Capitalism as the Right for all Wrongs. >> Or a vision that sees Lex Luther as the archnemesis of >> Superman. Or a vision that sees the Jews as the evil that >> must be exterminated by the Supermen. >> >> Flattening morality is a common trick, practiced by >> revolutionaries (Public Enemy? Bush? ), the status quo >> (Reagan? Bush?), satarists (Bush? Dante?), and simpletons >> (Homer Simpson? Bush?). >> >> Moral nuance is also a common trick, supposedly practiced >> by con men, lovers, and novelists. >> >> I am perfectly willing to concede the point (i.e., Pynchon >> creates novels that place characters in a morally-flat >> universe) if faced with a nuanced (or sinister) argument, >> but--my thinking right now--it seems to me that Pynchon >> often flattens morality into good guys vs. bad guys as a >> satirist's (sp? -- one who creates satire?) tool in >> order to issue moral clarity and comic relieve. >> >> I dig Pynchon, but I do not turn to his novels for solace >> when I feel temptation, a morally gray world tugging me on >> all three sides ... his characters fight the powers that >> be, or they die, or they *are* (gasp!) the powers that be. >> >> So till sweet death do us part, may Dog have mercy. But >> don't tell nobody. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From robinlandseadel at comcast.net Sun Jul 13 21:19:06 2008 From: robinlandseadel at comcast.net (robinlandseadel at comcast.net) Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2008 02:19:06 +0000 Subject: Repost: The Big One Message-ID: <071420080219.2311.487AB79A00082CAA000009072216566276040A0B0E0A9C0B020E0402070D019D@comcast.net> malignd: Just wondering: do you have any knowledge of IG Farben outside of your reading in Pynchon? Yep, all roads lead to Prescott Bush. Any questions? -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: malignd at aol.com Subject: Re: Repost: The Big One Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2008 02:08:22 +0000 Size: 7370 URL: From malignd at aol.com Sun Jul 13 21:39:41 2008 From: malignd at aol.com (malignd at aol.com) Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2008 22:39:41 -0400 Subject: Fwd: Repost: The Big One In-Reply-To: <8CAB371DE9EC346-12D8-A2E@WEBMAIL-DC05.sysops.aol.com> References: <071420080219.2311.487AB79A00082CAA000009072216566276040A0B0E0A9C0B020E0402070D019D@comcast.net> <8CAB371DE9EC346-12D8-A2E@WEBMAIL-DC05.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <8CAB372007DD314-12D8-A37@WEBMAIL-DC05.sysops.aol.com> -----Original Message----- From: malignd at aol.com To: pynchon-list at waste.org Sent: Sun, 13 Jul 2008 10:38 pm Subject: Re: Repost: The Big One <> Well yes: what the fuck is this supposed to add, other than to demonstrate the simple-minded this-equals-that sense of morality that I'm describing? The Famous, the Infamous, the Lame - in your browser. Get the TMZ Toolbar Now! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From robinlandseadel at comcast.net Sun Jul 13 21:51:46 2008 From: robinlandseadel at comcast.net (robinlandseadel at comcast.net) Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2008 02:51:46 +0000 Subject: Fwd: Repost: The Big One Message-ID: <071420080251.19731.487ABF42000B4AAB00004D132215575114040A0B0E0A9C0B020E0402070D019D@comcast.net> Robin: Yep, all roads lead to Prescott Bush. Any questions? MD: Well yes: what the fuck is this supposed to add, other than to demonstrate the simple-minded this-equals-that sense of morality that I'm describing? Family history, part of the the Pynchon/Slothrop backstory. George M. Pynchon & William Fox, the emergence of "talkies" and the Downfall of Pynchon & Company. All that really old East Coast money. The establishment of the CIA. The main reason GR is sooooooo paranoid. & Watching your spleen explode all over the internet. What can I say? You're so easy to bait. -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: malignd at aol.com Subject: Fwd: Repost: The Big One Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2008 02:41:20 +0000 Size: 2242 URL: From malignd at aol.com Sun Jul 13 21:51:43 2008 From: malignd at aol.com (malignd at aol.com) Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2008 22:51:43 -0400 Subject: Repost: The Big One In-Reply-To: <071420080219.2311.487AB79A00082CAA000009072216566276040A0B0E0A9C0B020E0402070D019D@comcast.net> References: <071420080219.2311.487AB79A00082CAA000009072216566276040A0B0E0A9C0B020E0402070D019D@comcast.net> Message-ID: <8CAB373AEC06364-12D8-A95@WEBMAIL-DC05.sysops.aol.com> Since you ask, I have read Richard Sasuly's book, which was the clear source for GR; also, Crime and Punishment of IG Farben by Joseph Borkin.  One I own, the other is in the NY Librarly system. So let's hear the argument behind your simple-minded formulation. -----Original Message----- From: robinlandseadel at comcast.net To: P-list Sent: Sun, 13 Jul 2008 10:19 pm Subject: Re: Repost: The Big One malignd: Just wondering: do you have any knowledge of IG Farben outside of your reading in Pynchon? Yep, all roads lead to Prescott Bush. Any questions? Attached Message From: malignd at aol.com To: pynchon-l at waste.org Subject: Re: Repost: The Big One Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2008 02:08:22 +0000 <> Just wondering: do you have any knowledge of IG Farben or the Ludlow massacre outside of your reading in Pynchon? If not, your taking his point of view to argue for the correctness of his point of view. -----Original Message----- From: kelber at mindspring.com To: pynchon-l at waste.org Sent: Sun, 13 Jul 2008 6:06 pm Subject: Re: Repost: The Big One No, you're not alone in seeing the moral nuance, Mark. When he writes of IG Farben or the Ludlow Massacre, there's not a whole lot of room for moral nuance. I don't know of any essays written by anyone (correct me someone if I'm wrong) that show that the Rockefeller's actions in the Ludlow massacre were based on a genuinely moral outlook. You don't need to be a moralizing prig to come down on the side of the miners. When we're talking about whether TRP's writing is morally flat or un-nuanced, the implication is that he's somewhat of a prig or at least a knee-jerker. When he writes about WWI or the aftermath of the Mexican Revolution (Madero presidency) he's aware that there are no good guys to side with. In the sequence where Frank dynamites a moving train in a collision course with Federales, knowingly causing untold human and animal deaths, he's become uncomfortably aware that he's going through the m otions (and deadly motions they are); he no longer knows or much cares what he's fighting for. Then TRP's morality kicks in: the morality of the state of grace, the Buddhist viewpoint: (p. 985): " ... suddenly the day had become extradimensional, the country shifted, was no longer the desert abstraction of a map but was speed, air rushing, the smell of smoke and steam, time whose substance grew more condensed as each tick came faster and faster, all perfectly inseparable from Frank's certainty that jumping or not jumping was no longer the point, he belonged to what was happening ..." Faced with the moral chaos of WWI, the Mexican devolution, the post 9-11 world, the only choice (I think he's saying) is to view the world in its proper perspective, as it is, nothing more. This may be moralizing, but it's neither flat or un-nuanced. Laura -----Original Message----- >From: Mark Kohut >Sent: Jul 13, 2008 10:34 AM >To: David Payne >Cc: pynchon -l >Subject: RE: Repost: "The Big One" > >As, it seems, the lone contrarian voice, I will risk being wrong again: > >There is as much 'moral nuance' in "Against the Day", at least, as in >almost any writer. > >Presenting such nuances may be one of TRPs deepest themes here, i.e. a vision of life in History that has a fuller range---see Light Over the Ranges---than in any other of his books. > > >--- On Sun, 7/13/08, David Payne wrote:0A> >> From: David Payne >> Subject: RE: Repost: "The Big One" >> To: malignd at aol.com, pynchon-l at waste.org >> Date: Sunday, July 13, 2008, 4:12 AM >> On Fri, 11 Jul 2008 (17:18:29 -0400), malignd at aol.com wrote: >> >> > >> That's funny sh^t, man, but, umm, just for the record, >> when I said "morally flat," I did not mean >> morally void, I meant morally un-nuanced. >> >> Like, for example, a moral vision that collapses everyone >> into Nazis or Abbie Hoffman--that's morally flat. As is >> a vision that sees Capitalism as the Right for all Wrongs. >> Or a vision that sees Lex Luther as the archnemesis of >> Superman. Or a vision that sees the Jews as the evil that >> must be exterminated by the Supermen. >> >> Flattening morality is a common trick, practiced by >> revolutionaries (Public Enemy? Bush? ), the status quo >> (Reagan? Bush?), satarists (Bush? Dante?), and simpletons >> (Homer Simpson? Bush?). >> >> Moral nuance is also a common trick, supposedly practiced >> by con men, lovers, and novelists. >> >> I am perfectly willing to concede the point (i.e., Pynchon >> creates novels that place characters in a morally-flat >> universe) if faced with a nuanced (or sinister) argument, >> but--my thinking right now--it seems to me that Pynchon >> often flattens morality into good guys vs. bad guys as a >> satirist's (sp? -- one who creates satire?) tool in >> order to issue moral clarity and comic relieve. >> >> I=2 0dig Pynchon, but I do not turn to his novels for solace >> when I feel temptation, a morally gray world tugging me on >> all three sides ... his characters fight the powers that >> be, or they die, or they *are* (gasp!) the powers that be. >> >> So till sweet death do us part, may Dog have mercy. But >> don't tell nobody. The Famous, the Infamous, the Lame - in your browser. Get the TMZ Toolbar Now! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From malignd at aol.com Sun Jul 13 22:00:56 2008 From: malignd at aol.com (malignd at aol.com) Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2008 23:00:56 -0400 Subject: Repost: The Big One In-Reply-To: <071420080251.19731.487ABF42000B4AAB00004D132215575114040A0B0E0A9C0B020E0402070D019D@comcast.net> References: <071420080251.19731.487ABF42000B4AAB00004D132215575114040A0B0E0A9C0B020E0402070D019D@comcast.net> Message-ID: <8CAB374F8A078A2-12D8-AD3@WEBMAIL-DC05.sysops.aol.com> <> This is an argument? You make my point. You're more persuasive when you enlist Tarot cards and Renaissance fairs to bolster your arguments. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From robinlandseadel at comcast.net Sun Jul 13 22:07:46 2008 From: robinlandseadel at comcast.net (robinlandseadel at comcast.net) Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2008 03:07:46 +0000 Subject: Repost: The Big One Message-ID: <071420080307.21391.487AC302000C920A0000538F2215575114040A0B0E0A9C0B020E0402070D019D@comcast.net> Malign: So let's hear the argument behind your simple-minded formulation. http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2004/sep/25/usa.secondworldwar I've infected the P-List archives with all sorts of posts on the subject, I'm certain you've already dumped on them. The Pynchon family name ought to be rather well known considering they had the second largest investment house to fall in the first great depression and the first book written in the New World to be burned as heretical in the New World. It is as if their family history was erased from the textbooks. I could go on and perhaps provide leads, but you have been so consistently dismissive of everything I say, I really don't see the point. The further I look into the history of the Pynchon Family in America, the clearer it becomes that's it's central to Thomas Pynchon's writing. -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: malignd at aol.com Subject: Re: Repost: The Big One Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2008 02:53:34 +0000 Size: 11658 URL: From malignd at aol.com Sun Jul 13 22:16:47 2008 From: malignd at aol.com (malignd at aol.com) Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2008 23:16:47 -0400 Subject: Repost: The Big One In-Reply-To: <071420080307.21391.487AC302000C920A0000538F2215575114040A0B0E0A9C0B020E0402070D019D@comcast.net> References: <071420080307.21391.487AC302000C920A0000538F2215575114040A0B0E0A9C0B020E0402070D019D@comcast.net> Message-ID: <8CAB3772F5BFFC6-12D8-B4C@WEBMAIL-DC05.sysops.aol.com> The Pynchon family name ought to be rather well known considering they had the second largest investment house to fall in the first great depression and the first book written in the New World to be burned as heretical in the New World. It is as if their family history was erased from the textbooks. I could go on and perhaps provide leads, but you have been so consistently dismissive of everything I say, I really don't see the point. What does this have to do with the Bush family?  (Feel free to respond with renaissance fair recipes.) -----Original Message----- From: robinlandseadel at comcast.net To: P-list Sent: Sun, 13 Jul 2008 11:07 pm Subject: Re: Repost: The Big One Malign: So let's hear the argument behind your simple-minded formulation. http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2004/sep/25/usa.secondworldwar I've infected the P-List archives with all sorts of posts on the subject, I'm certain you've already dumped on them. The Pynchon family name ought to be rather well known considering they had the second largest investment house to fall in the first great depression and the first book written in the New World to be burned as heretical in the New World. It is as if their family history was erased from the textbooks. I could go on and perhaps provide leads, but you have been so consistently dismissive of everything I say, I really don't see the point. The further I look into the hi story of the Pynchon Family in America, the clearer it becomes that's it's central to Thomas Pynchon's writing. Attached Message From: malignd at aol.com To: pynchon-l at waste.org Subject: Re: Repost: The Big One Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2008 02:53:34 +0000 Since you ask, I have read Richard Sasuly's book, which was the clear source for GR; also, Crime and Punishment of IG Farben by Joseph Borkin.  One I own, the other is in the NY Librarly system. So let's hear the argument behind your simple-minded formulation. -----Original Message----- From: robinlandseadel at comcast.net To: P-list Sent: Sun, 13 Jul 2008 10:19 pm Subject: Re: Repost: The Big One malignd: Just wondering: do you have any knowledge of IG Farben outside of your reading in Pynchon? Yep, all roads lead to Prescott Bush. Any questions? Attached Message From: malignd at aol.com To: pyncho n-l at waste.org Subject: Re: Repost: The Big One Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2008 02:08:22 +0000 <> Just wondering: do you have any knowledge of IG Farben or the Ludlow massacre outside of your reading in Pynchon? If not, your taking his point of view to argue for the correctness of his point of view. -----Original Message----- From: kelber at mindspring.com To: pynchon-l at waste.org Sent: Sun, 13 Jul 2008 6:06 pm Subject: Re: Repost: The Big One No, you're not alone in seeing the moral nuance, Mark. When he writes of IG F arben or the Ludlow Massacre, there's not a20whole lot of room for moral nuance. I don't know of any essays written by anyone (correct me someone if I'm wrong) that show that the Rockefeller's actions in the Ludlow massacre were based on a genuinely moral outlook. You don't need to be a moralizing prig to come down on the side of the miners. When we're talking about whether TRP's writing is morally flat or un-nuanced, the implication is that he's somewhat of a prig or at least a knee-jerker. When he writes about WWI or the aftermath of the Mexican Revolution (Madero presidency) he's aware that there are no good guys to side with. In the sequence where Frank dynamites a moving train in a collision course with Federales, knowingly causing untold human and animal deaths, he's become uncomfortably aware that he's going through the motions (and deadly motions they are); he no longer knows or much cares what he's fighting for. Then TRP's morality kicks in: the morality of the state of grace, the Buddhist viewpoint: (p. 985): " ... suddenly the day had become extradimensional, the country shifted, was no longer the desert abstraction of a map but was speed, air rushing, the smell of smoke and steam, time whose substance grew more condensed as each tick came faster and faster, all perfectly inseparable from Frank's certainty that jumping or not jumping was no longer the point, he belonged to what was happening ..." Faced with the moral chaos of WWI,=2 0the Mexican devolution, the post 9-11 wo rld, the only choice (I think he's saying) is to view the world in its proper perspective, as it is, nothing more. This may be moralizing, but it's neither flat or un-nuanced. Laura -----Original Message----- >From: Mark Kohut >Sent: Jul 13, 2008 10:34 AM >To: David Payne >Cc: pynchon -l >Subject: RE: Repost: "The Big One" > >As, it seems, the lone contrarian voice, I will risk being wrong again: > >There is as much 'moral nuance' in "Against the Day", at least, as in >almost any writer. > >Presenting such nuances may be one of TRPs deepest themes here, i.e. a vision of life in History that has a fuller range---see Light Over the Ranges---than in any other of his books. > > >--- On Sun, 7/13/08, David Payne wrote: > >> From: David Payne >> Subject: RE: Repost: "The Big One" >> To: malignd at aol.com, pynchon-l at waste.org >> Date: Sunday, July 13, 2008, 4:12 AM >> On Fri, 11 Jul 2008 (17:18:29 -0400), malignd at aol.com wrote: >> >> > & gt;> That's funny sh^t, man, but, umm, just for the record, >> when I said "morally flat," I did not mean >> morally void, I meant morally un-nuanced. >> >> Like, for example, a moral vision that collapses everyone >> into Nazis or Abbie Hoffman--that's morally flat. As is >> a vision that sees Capitalism as the Right for all Wrongs. >> Or a vision that sees Lex Luther as the archnemesis of0A>> Superman. Or a vision that sees the Jews as the evil that >> must be exterminated by the Supermen. >> >> Flattening morality is a common trick, practiced by >> revolutionaries (Public Enemy? Bush? ), the status quo >> (Reagan? Bush?), satarists (Bush? Dante?), and simpletons >> (Homer Simpson? Bush?). >> >> Moral nuance is also a common trick, supposedly practiced >> by con men, lovers, and novelists. >> >> I am perfectly willing to concede the point (i.e., Pynchon >> creates novels that place characters in a morally-flat >> universe) if faced with a nuanced (or sinister) argument, >> but--my thinking right now--it seems to me that Pynchon >> often flattens morality into good guys vs. bad guys as a >> satirist's (sp? -- one who creates satire?) tool in >> order to issue moral clarity and comic relieve. >> >> I dig Pynchon, but I do not turn to his novels for solace >> when I feel temptation, a morally gray world tugging me on >> all three sides ... his characters fight the powers that >> be, or they die, or they *are* (gasp!) the powers that be. >> >> So till sweet death do us part, may Dog have mercy. But >> don't tell nobody. The Famous, the Infamous, the Lame - in your browser. Get the TMZ Toolbar Now! The Famous, the Infamous, the Lame - in your browser. Get the TMZ Toolbar Now! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bekker2 at mac.com Sun Jul 13 23:50:00 2008 From: bekker2 at mac.com (Bekah) Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2008 21:50:00 -0700 Subject: Repost: The Big One In-Reply-To: <8CAB36CAA1245A8-12D8-8EF@WEBMAIL-DC05.sysops.aol.com> References: <9425897.1215986797683.JavaMail.root@elwamui-huard.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <8CAB36CAA1245A8-12D8-8EF@WEBMAIL-DC05.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <1EE3A45D-4B40-4F2E-A046-1AEF082DDD30@mac.com> On Jul 13, 2008, at 7:01 PM, malignd at aol.com wrote: > > Just wondering: do you have any knowledge of IG Farben or the > Ludlow massacre outside of your reading in Pynchon? If not, your > taking his point of view to argue for the correctness of his point > of view. I don't know Farben but I've known about Ludlow for a long time (high school?) and like Laura said, there aren't too many ways to nuance the morals unless you go back to the good old standard "What's good for business is good for America." Pynchon did that on page 1001 with Scarsdale's little talk to the L.A.H.D.I.D.A meeting. (heh) Pynchon may not dwell on making sure all sides get serious, un- satirized equal opportunity (and risk being morally ambiguous) , but I do see some nuanced metaphorical references to the light/dark - black/white issue - example: Page 1009 Light as torture / darkness as compassion "The Colorodo militia were in fact giving light a bad name. Military wisdom had it that putting searchlights on the enemy allowed you to see them, while blinding them to you, giving you an inestimable edge both tactical and psychological. In the tents, darkness in that awful winter was sought like warmth or quiet. It seemed like a form of compassion. " Bekah From lorentzen at hotmail.de Mon Jul 14 06:34:00 2008 From: lorentzen at hotmail.de (Kai Frederik Lorentzen) Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2008 13:34:00 +0200 Subject: Repost: "The Big One" In-Reply-To: <4878C8D1.3070308@verizon.net> References: <071220081253.18729.4878A9490008A70E000049292216549976040A0B0E0A9C0B020E0402070D019D@comcast.net> <4878C8D1.3070308@verizon.net> Message-ID: Paul Mackin schrieb: > I personally don't GET why everything in P's oeuvre needs to be tied > together in AtD. Simple guess: It's meant to be P's last book. And may it be like that! While I have a certain affection for Vineland, I think that in both, M&D (read it three times) and AtD, Pynchon is merely a shadow (pun realized and accepted) of himself. The long sentences they do not scan the way they used to. And the uncle-like humor sucks. Before you now start to hyperventilate, please remember that it's not uncommon to dislike the later works of an artist whose earlier works you love. It's called the problem of the old-age-style (Altersstil). Not too long ago somebody asked me offlist about my Pynchon-preferences. Here they come: 1. GR 2. GR 3. VL 4. Col49 5. V Vineland is where Pynchon comes closest to the poetology unfolded in the SL-intro. It's also a pretty interesting novel for my generation. Kai "Jesaja II.4" Lorentzen -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From paul.mackin at verizon.net Mon Jul 14 08:45:12 2008 From: paul.mackin at verizon.net (Paul Mackin) Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2008 09:45:12 -0400 Subject: Repost: The Big One In-Reply-To: <071420080307.21391.487AC302000C920A0000538F2215575114040A0B0E0A9C0B020E0402070D019D@comcast.net> References: <071420080307.21391.487AC302000C920A0000538F2215575114040A0B0E0A9C0B020E0402070D019D@comcast.net> Message-ID: <487B5868.8030703@verizon.net> robinlandseadel at comcast.net wrote: > Malign: > So let's hear the argument behind your simple-minded formulation. > > http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2004/sep/25/usa.secondworldwar > > I've infected the P-List archives with all sorts of posts on the subject, > I'm certain you've already dumped on them. > > The Pynchon family name ought to be rather well known considering they had the second largest investment house to fall in the first great depression and the first book written in the New World to be burned as heretical in the New World. It is as if their family history was erased from the textbooks. I could go on and perhaps provide leads, but you have been so consistently dismissive of everything I say, I really don't see the point. > Sounds like you think there might be some kind of crazy conspiracy to suppress the information. Failures of business ventures of one sort or another were as common as mud during the Great Depression. There's no reason why one such failure should further clutter up our children's textbooks. The only reason people named Pynchon are likely to heard of today is that they are "related" (no matter how distantly) to the novelist. And the market for these other-Pynchon biographies would be confined mostly to the relatively few people who read him. (Students of early New England history are of course familiar with the name.) It seems quite probable that Tom himself grew up without knowledge of the Pynchon Company. How many of us know our second, third, or fourth cousins? Tom is a digger however. I'd bet he learned of the New Englanders before the Wall Street Branch. It was the former who provided something he could run with. And of course I think it is pure malarkey that the grown up Tom feels somehow dispossessed because some sharp dealing distant cousin lost his fortune to some other guys of similar type. Tom wouldn't have gotten any of the loot. I don't pretend to be weighing any of this stuff at all judiciously. But it seems to me no one else is either. P. From kipend at gmail.com Mon Jul 14 10:35:20 2008 From: kipend at gmail.com (David Kipen) Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2008 11:35:20 -0400 Subject: Thomas Pynchon Promotional Broadside In-Reply-To: <830c13f40807111125j5ff2988fx3508976d440d267b@mail.gmail.com> References: <830c13f40807111125j5ff2988fx3508976d440d267b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <3e91a77a0807140835r79c6c696pcae5f10f93387982@mail.gmail.com> Does this mean that everyone who offers Pynchon an award gets a regretful no-thank-you note and an inscribed book? Because I have it on good authority that he's just won the First Annual Pynchon-List Medal for Outstanding Contribution to American Letters, D.M. Kipen, Awards Committee Chair... On Fri, Jul 11, 2008 at 2:25 PM, rich wrote: > this I just found: > > http://sweetbooks.com/p.htm > > PYNCHON, Thomas. Mason and Dixon. NY: Henry Holt, (1997). Hardbound in > dust jacket. First edition. Presentation copy inscribed by Pynchon to > William Plumley, head of the University of Charleston award committee > that chose Pynchon for their Appalachian Medallion: "For William > Plumley, With appreciation and thanks. Thomas Pynchon." TOGETHER WITH > a Typed Letter Signed from Pynchon declining the award and presenting > the book. One quarto page on Mason and Dixon letterhead dated June 23, > 1997, in full: "Dear Mr. Plumley, Regretfully, I must decline the > Appalachian Medallion. Rationally or otherwise, I have a history of > trying to avoid, whenever possible, all such awards. I am grateful to > you for the chance to do so ahead of time, as well as for the honor, > of course, of even being thought of on the same list as Eudora Welty > and Robert Penn Warren. I do, however, hope that you will accept, with > my thanks, the copy of Mason and Dixon enclosed. Part of the novel is > set in Appalachia---I've tried in it to remain true to the spirit of > the region and the people, whom I continue to admire and respect. > Yours truly, Thomas Pynchon." Books signed by Pynchon seldom surface > on the market and autograph material by him is among the most > difficult of any living author. There have been a few known instances > where he's donated a signed book to a charity auction, but genuine > presentation copies of his books are truly rare, and rarer still is > Pynchon correspondence---and this letter is especially nice. Along > with the literary references and mention of his own book, Pynchon > explains his ethos of anonymity that has caused him to studiously > avoid awards, interviews, and photographs throughout his career. A > search of auction records shows no evidence of a Pynchon letter ever > having appeared at auction. A superb pair of Pynchon items, the only > inscribed book with a presentation letter that we know of. Fine. > SKB-13851 > $37500 > > Rich > > On Fri, Jul 11, 2008 at 1:50 PM, Dave Monroe > wrote: > > For sale: Thomas Pynchon promotional broadside celebrating the > > appearance of Gravity's Rainbow. "DEAR THOMAS PYNCHON, WE THOUGHT > > YOU'D LIKE TO SEE THE FIRST REVIEWS FOR YOUR BOOK!" Single sheet, > > measuring 17 by 22 inches. It is illustrated in black and white with > > the front panel and spine of the dust jacket for the first edition of > > Gravity's Rainbow. In addition the broadside prints excerpts from some > > reviews of Thomas Pynchon's Gravity's Rainbow. Folded a few times, > > else fine. Same item lists on abebooks for $575. > > > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=280244927801 > > > -- All finest, David Kipen Literature Director, National Reading Initiatives Blog: www.arts.gov/bigreadblog National Endowment for the Arts 1100 Pennsylvania Avenue #722 Washington DC, 20506 Email: kipend at arts.gov 202-682-5787 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From paul.mackin at verizon.net Mon Jul 14 10:52:07 2008 From: paul.mackin at verizon.net (Paul Mackin) Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2008 11:52:07 -0400 Subject: Repost: The Big One In-Reply-To: <9425897.1215986797683.JavaMail.root@elwamui-huard.atl.sa.earthlink.net> References: <9425897.1215986797683.JavaMail.root@elwamui-huard.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <487B7627.9010502@verizon.net> kelber at mindspring.com wrote: > No, you're not alone in seeing the moral nuance, Mark. When he writes of IG Farben or the Ludlow Massacre, there's not a whole lot of room for moral nuance. I don't know of any essays written by anyone (correct me someone if I'm wrong) that show that the Rockefeller's actions in the Ludlow massacre were based on a genuinely moral outlook. You don't need to be a moralizing prig to come down on the side of the miners. When we're talking about whether TRP's writing is morally flat or un-nuanced, the implication is that he's somewhat of a prig or at least a knee-jerker. > > When he writes about WWI or the aftermath of the Mexican Revolution (Madero presidency) he's aware that there are no good guys to side with. In the sequence where Frank dynamites a moving train in a collision course with Federales, knowingly causing untold human and animal deaths, he's become uncomfortably aware that he's going through the motions (and deadly motions they are); he no longer knows or much cares what he's fighting for. Then TRP's morality kicks in: the morality of the state of grace, the Buddhist viewpoint: > > (p. 985): " ... suddenly the day had become extradimensional, the country shifted, was no longer the desert abstraction of a map but was speed, air rushing, the smell of smoke and steam, time whose substance grew more condensed as each tick came faster and faster, all perfectly inseparable from Frank's certainty that jumping or not jumping was no longer the point, he belonged to what was happening ..." > > Faced with the moral chaos of WWI, the Mexican devolution, the post 9-11 world, the only choice (I think he's saying) is to view the world in its proper perspective, as it is, nothing more. This may be moralizing, but it's neither flat or un-nuanced. > > Laura > The moral judgments you cite are the judgments of History, not those principally of Pynchon. The judgments were made long before he came on the scene. He uses these historic situations as backdrop for his novel, but I don't think he would like it much if he thought people were reading him for further long laments over the many injustices of the past. Regardless of how well written. And of course it would be written well. He must know his recitations read better than those of the historians. But needless to say, we want more. So what we should be discussing is how the author goes beyond what History already "teaches" and what we all would agree on even if we never read Pynchon. e.g., The intricately worked out character of Weissmann, whose passion for reaching the stars allows him to throw off conventional morality with great elan. Let me put it this way. I don't think Pynchon necessary means for us to say tut, tut, tut while Gottfried is being entombed in the rocket. Weissmann is an uber-mensch. (of course so was Hitler) Or the poor man's uber-menchen. The bomb throwing anarchists who have convinced themselves that bourgeois lives (very loosely defined) aren't worth considering in the collateral damage. That's really spooky but a tiny bit uplifting at the same time. Two obvious examples of P-moral ambiguity. There must be a zillion more. From kelber at mindspring.com Mon Jul 14 12:25:24 2008 From: kelber at mindspring.com (kelber at mindspring.com) Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2008 13:25:24 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Repost: The Big One Message-ID: <3368646.1216056324670.JavaMail.root@elwamui-huard.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Why would I want to read anything other than Pynchon? Like all of the other frothing-at-the-mouth Pynchon-zealots on the p-list, I interpret Pynchon as The Word. Calling on any source materials, secondary readings or prior knowledge is tantamount to heresy. The fact is that IG Farben was a nice little Mom and Pop operation striving to invent a mild baby aspirin when, through no fault of their own, they invented Zyklon-B. Then nasty-minded knee-jerk, commie-liberal Thomas Pynchon (he of the flat, un-nuanced morality)and his howling hordes of adulating p-listers DISTORTED these nice folks' record, deliberately making them look BAD and (gulp) un-nuanced. It's up to you, Malignd, to set the record straight. Save the world from the oppressive forces of Pynchonism! Laura -----Original Message----- >From: malignd at aol.com > >Just wondering: do you have any knowledge of IG Farben or the Ludlow massacre outside of your reading in Pynchon? If not, your taking his point of view to argue for the correctness of his point of view. > > > > > > > >-----Original Message----- >From: kelber at mindspring.com >To: pynchon-l at waste.org >Sent: Sun, 13 Jul 2008 6:06 pm >Subject: Re: Repost: The Big One > > > > > > > > >No, you're not alone in seeing the moral nuance, Mark. When he writes of IG >Farben or the Ludlow Massacre, there's not a whole lot of room for moral nuance. >I don't know of any essays written by anyone (correct me someone if I'm wrong) >that show that the Rockefeller's actions in the Ludlow massacre were based on a >genuinely moral outlook. You don't need to be a moralizing prig to come down on >the side of the miners. When we're talking about whether TRP's writing is >morally flat or un-nuanced, the implication is that he's somewhat of a prig or >at least a knee-jerker. > >When he writes about WWI or the aftermath of the Mexican Revolution (Madero >presidency) he's aware that there are no good guys to side with. In the >sequence where Frank dynamites a moving train in a collision course with >Federales, knowingly causing untold human and animal deaths, he's become >uncomfortably aware that he's going through the motions (and deadly motions they >are); he no longer knows or much cares what he's fighting for. Then TRP's >morality kicks in: the morality of the state of grace, the Buddhist viewpoint: > >(p. 985): " ... suddenly the day had become extradimensional, the country >shifted, was no longer the desert abstraction of a map but was speed, air >rushing, the smell of smoke and steam, time whose substance grew more condensed >as each tick came faster and faster, all perfectly inseparable from Frank's >certainty that jumping or not jumping was no longer the point, he belonged to >what was happening ..." > >Faced with the moral chaos of WWI, the Mexican devolution, the post 9-11 world, >the only choice (I think he's saying) is to view the world in its proper >perspective, as it is, nothing more. This may be moralizing, but it's neither >flat or un-nuanced. > >Laura > >-----Original Message----- >>From: Mark Kohut >>Sent: Jul 13, 2008 10:34 AM >>To: David Payne >>Cc: pynchon -l >>Subject: RE: Repost: "The Big One" >> >>As, it seems, the lone contrarian voice, I will risk being wrong again: >> >>There is as much 'moral nuance' in "Against the Day", at least, as in >>almost any writer. >> >>Presenting such nuances may be one of TRPs deepest themes here, i.e. a vision >of life in History that has a fuller range---see Light Over the Ranges---than in >any other of his books. >> >> >>--- On Sun, 7/13/08, David Payne wrote: >> >>> From: David Payne >>> Subject: RE: Repost: "The Big One" >>> To: malignd at aol.com, pynchon-l at waste.org >>> Date: Sunday, July 13, 2008, 4:12 AM >>> On Fri, 11 Jul 2008 (17:18:29 -0400), malignd at aol.com wrote: >>> >>> >> >>> That's funny sh^t, man, but, umm, just for the record, >>> when I said "morally flat," I did not mean >>> morally void, I meant morally un-nuanced. >>> >>> Like, for example, a moral vision that collapses everyone >>> into Nazis or Abbie Hoffman--that's morally flat. As is >>> a vision that sees Capitalism as the Right for all Wrongs. >>> Or a vision that sees Lex Luther as the archnemesis of >>> Superman. Or a vision that sees the Jews as the evil that >>> must be exterminated by the Supermen. >>> >>> Flattening morality is a common trick, practiced by >>> revolutionaries (Public Enemy? Bush? ), the status quo >>> (Reagan? Bush?), satarists (Bush? Dante?), and simpletons >>> (Homer Simpson? Bush?). >>> >>> Moral nuance is also a common trick, supposedly practiced >>> by con men, lovers, and novelists. >>> >>> I am perfectly willing to concede the point (i.e., Pynchon >>> creates novels that place characters in a morally-flat >>> universe) if faced with a nuanced (or sinister) argument, >>> but--my thinking right now--it seems to me that Pynchon >>> often flattens morality into good guys vs. bad guys as a >>> satirist's (sp? -- one who creates satire?) tool in >>> order to issue moral clarity and comic relieve. >>> >>> I dig Pynchon, but I do not turn to his novels for solace >>> when I feel temptation, a morally gray world tugging me on >>> all three sides ... his characters fight the powers that >>> be, or they die, or they *are* (gasp!) the powers that be. >>> >>> So till sweet death do us part, may Dog have mercy. But >>> don't tell nobody. > > > > > > > From scuffling at gmail.com Mon Jul 14 14:02:35 2008 From: scuffling at gmail.com (Henry) Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2008 15:02:35 -0400 Subject: NP: Lou Reed's Berlin Message-ID: <008e01c8e5e4$2df711d0$89e53570$@com> THE New York Man filmed by Schnabel (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0773603/ ): http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1093836/ Oh boy, oh boy! I can't imagine it will stay in theaters very long, so I'll catch it right away. Lou Reed and the Velvet Underground are/were some of the most intelligent music on plastic/vinyl... Speaking of Lou on film, did anyone ever see "Get Crazy?" http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0085551/ Henry Mu Information, Media, and Technology Consultant http://my.barackobama.com/page/community/blog/henrymu From against.the.dave at gmail.com Mon Jul 14 14:15:02 2008 From: against.the.dave at gmail.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2008 14:15:02 -0500 Subject: The Man with the Iron Heart Message-ID: http://www.randomhouse.com/delrey/catalog/display.pperl?isbn=9780345504340 From markekohut at yahoo.com Mon Jul 14 14:48:11 2008 From: markekohut at yahoo.com (Mark Kohut) Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2008 12:48:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Repost: The Big One Message-ID: <735517.53066.qm@web38402.mail.mud.yahoo.com> A Flat-Out, so to speak, challenge to moral flatlanders (and all )p-listers: Gloss just p. 985, the very thematic "Frank and the train wreck' with full moral nuance.....read it as Pynchon himself, within earlier sections of "Against the Day", has shown us how. I'm tweaking simple verbal nuances myself at my busy moment in time. But will send. New Aunts. --- On Mon, 7/14/08, Paul Mackin wrote: > From: Paul Mackin > Subject: Re: Repost: The Big One > To: pynchon-l at waste.org > Date: Monday, July 14, 2008, 11:52 AM > kelber at mindspring.com wrote: > > No, you're not alone in seeing the moral nuance, > Mark. When he writes of IG Farben or the Ludlow Massacre, > there's not a whole lot of room for moral nuance. I > don't know of any essays written by anyone (correct me > someone if I'm wrong) that show that the > Rockefeller's actions in the Ludlow massacre were based > on a genuinely moral outlook. You don't need to be a > moralizing prig to come down on the side of the miners. > When we're talking about whether TRP's writing is > morally flat or un-nuanced, the implication is that > he's somewhat of a prig or at least a knee-jerker. > > > > When he writes about WWI or the aftermath of the > Mexican Revolution (Madero presidency) he's aware that > there are no good guys to side with. In the sequence where > Frank dynamites a moving train in a collision course with > Federales, knowingly causing untold human and animal > deaths, he's become uncomfortably aware that he's > going through the motions (and deadly motions they are); he > no longer knows or much cares what he's fighting for. > Then TRP's morality kicks in: the morality of the state > of grace, the Buddhist viewpoint: > > > > (p. 985): " ... suddenly the day had become > extradimensional, the country shifted, was no longer the > desert abstraction of a map but was speed, air rushing, the > smell of smoke and steam, time whose substance grew more > condensed as each tick came faster and faster, all > perfectly inseparable from Frank's certainty that > jumping or not jumping was no longer the point, he belonged > to what was happening ..." > > > > Faced with the moral chaos of WWI, the Mexican > devolution, the post 9-11 world, the only choice (I think > he's saying) is to view the world in its proper > perspective, as it is, nothing more. This may be > moralizing, but it's neither flat or un-nuanced. > > > > Laura > > > > > The moral judgments you cite are the judgments of History, > not those > principally of Pynchon. The judgments were made long > before he came on > the scene. He uses these historic situations as backdrop > for his novel, > but I don't think he would like it much if he thought > people were > reading him for further long laments over the many > injustices of the > past. Regardless of how well written. And of course it > would be written > well. He must know his recitations read better than those > of the historians. > > But needless to say, we want more. So what we should be > discussing is > how the author goes beyond what History already > "teaches" and what we > all would agree on even if we never read Pynchon. > > e.g., > > The intricately worked out character of Weissmann, whose > passion for > reaching the stars allows him to throw off conventional > morality with > great elan. Let me put it this way. I don't think > Pynchon necessary > means for us to say tut, tut, tut while Gottfried is > being entombed > in the rocket. Weissmann is an uber-mensch. (of course so > was Hitler) > > Or the poor man's uber-menchen. The bomb throwing > anarchists who have > convinced themselves that bourgeois lives (very loosely > defined) aren't > worth considering in the collateral damage. That's > really spooky but a > tiny bit uplifting at the same time. > > Two obvious examples of P-moral ambiguity. There must be a > zillion more. From robinlandseadel at comcast.net Mon Jul 14 15:53:45 2008 From: robinlandseadel at comcast.net (robinlandseadel at comcast.net) Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2008 20:53:45 +0000 Subject: Repost: The Big One Message-ID: <071420082053.7029.487BBCD90002330A00001B752216525856040A0B0E0A9C0B020E0402070D019D@comcast.net> Thanks Laura, I needed that. Yeah, I've read plenty on I.G. Farben. Ties right in to the "New World Order", in case such things interest you. -------------- Original message ---------------------- From: kelber at mindspring.com > Why would I want to read anything other than Pynchon? Like all of the other > frothing-at-the-mouth Pynchon-zealots on the p-list, I interpret Pynchon as The > Word. Calling on any source materials, secondary readings or prior knowledge is > tantamount to heresy. The fact is that IG Farben was a nice little Mom and Pop > operation striving to invent a mild baby aspirin when, through no fault of their > own, they invented Zyklon-B. Then nasty-minded knee-jerk, commie-liberal Thomas > Pynchon (he of the flat, un-nuanced morality)and his howling hordes of adulating > p-listers DISTORTED these nice folks' record, deliberately making them look BAD > and (gulp) un-nuanced. It's up to you, Malignd, to set the record straight. > Save the world from the oppressive forces of Pynchonism! > > Laura From markekohut at yahoo.com Mon Jul 14 18:12:34 2008 From: markekohut at yahoo.com (Mark Kohut) Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2008 16:12:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: WASTE software Message-ID: <593261.89610.qm@web38405.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Time to WASTE? p2pnet.net - Ontario,Canada Frankel called it WASTE after Thomas Pynchon’s WASTE (from The Crying of Lot 49), which is a renegade underground postal system operating in plain sight of ... See all stories on this topic From dpayne1912 at hotmail.com Mon Jul 14 19:00:11 2008 From: dpayne1912 at hotmail.com (David Payne) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2008 00:00:11 +0000 Subject: Repost: The Big One In-Reply-To: <9425897.1215986797683.JavaMail.root@elwamui-huard.atl.sa.earthlink.net> References: <9425897.1215986797683.JavaMail.root@elwamui-huard.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: On Sun, 13 Jul 2008 (18:06:37 -0400), Laura (kelber at mindspring.com) wrote > When we're talking about whether TRP's writing is morally flat or un-nuanced, the implication is that he's somewhat of a prig or at least a knee-jerker. That's not at all my implication. First, I was talking about the moral universe that Pynchon's character inhabit -- I was not talking about Pynchon's personal characterists as a human being. Second, as I failed to point out, labelling "morally flat" as bad and "morally nuanced" as good is a bit silly. Perhaps I should have said "morally distilled" instead of "morally flat" and said "morally abiguous" instead of "morally nuanced"? Third, is it possible to discuss Pynchon's use of moral distillation (i.e., removing moral ambiguity and deception by exposing Evil and Good with great clarity) as a means of presenting a morally nuanced vision? In other words, is there a difference between Pynchon's moral vision in a work of fiction and the moral universe that the characters inhabit? So there's this guy called "Rocket Man" who wears a cap and does battle with Grand Evils ... that, to me, sounds like a character inhabiting a morally flat--er, morally distilled--universe. But does the novel also contain a nuanced moral vision that is crafted by Pynchon's expectation of the reader's interaction with the the fictional and historical elements of GR? I'd like to say yes, but everytime I try to articulate examples, it all just sounds like a bunch of BS--so it beats me, quite frankly. Anyhow, the example of Frank blowing up the train was a better response to my poorly articulated thinking. Do we see someone suffering moral quandries and does this struggle lead to moral evolution? But still, we're talking about a guy who's having second thoughts about blowing up a friggin' train full of people , not the moral struggles of Jimmy Carter's lustful heart (talk about yr moral distillation!). (Or maybe we're actually talking about the way the passage suggests the moral amiguity of the situation? The good and the bad on the two sides of the tossed coin?) Anyhow, I'm probably just confusing Pynchon's flat characters with flat morality. My bad. (Just a joke foax, only kidding, satire....) _________________________________________________________________ The i’m Talkaton. Can 30-days of conversation change the world? http://www.imtalkathon.com/?source=EML_WLH_Talkathon_ChangeWorld From kelber at mindspring.com Mon Jul 14 22:44:27 2008 From: kelber at mindspring.com (kelber at mindspring.com) Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2008 23:44:27 -0400 (GMT-04:00) Subject: Repost: The Big One Message-ID: <28153830.1216093467828.JavaMail.root@elwamui-huard.atl.sa.earthlink.net> If you're expecting an impassioned defense of TRP's ability to draw well-rounded characters, you won't be getting it from me. Laura -----Original Message----- >From: David Payne >Anyhow, I'm probably just confusing Pynchon's flat characters with flat morality. My bad. > >(Just a joke foax, only kidding, satire....) >_________________________________________________________________ From isread at btinternet.com Tue Jul 15 00:10:29 2008 From: isread at btinternet.com (Paul Nightingale) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2008 06:10:29 +0100 Subject: Atdtda28: Local look, 783-784 Message-ID: <000001c8e639$19cf75d0$4d6e6170$@com> Thus far Ch55 has featured reactions to the Event, how to describe/represent it. Here, we join Kit and Prance mid-scene, their exchange revealing a series of events--Prance being shot at, repeatedly--of which we know nothing . Kit asks Prance to judge, ie represent different experiences of being shot at: "Was it as much fun as last time ..." etc; as with the Event, then, what we know is the result of readings offered in the text. It transpires that Prance resembles, to some, a Japanese spy, due to a misreading of "[s]cholarly curiosity". Prance, meanwhile, has his own stereotyped image of the Japanese, one that allows him to distance himself. Adopting a relativist outlook, Kit mockingly suggests Prance will become Japanese if others think it. Prance, then, will be denied any say in the matter; and thus silenced he is associated, somehow, with the Event, each being said to originate in Japan. In the final paragraph, over the page on 784, the narrative adopts Kit's pov. The section opens by inserting the reader into an exchange taking place between Kit and Prance; here, the reader is distanced from Prance to gain access to Kit's thoughts. Previously, Kit had mocked Prance's concern at being shot at; here, "with deep anxiety" he has returned to Ostend and the Q-weapon. Having joked that Prance might be held responsible for the Event, he now considers the possibility that he himself is, somehow, responsible. Cf. the "connected set" on 782. From isread at btinternet.com Tue Jul 15 00:52:59 2008 From: isread at btinternet.com (Paul Nightingale) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2008 06:52:59 +0100 Subject: Atdtda28: Accounts differed, 784-785 Message-ID: <000101c8e63f$09c4a6f0$1d4df4d0$@com> A survey of consequences, the Event's aftermath. Aboard the Bol'shaia Igra Padzhitnoff has considered "eyewitnesses living below" (781). Subsequently, the narrative has joined Kit and Prance at ground level; but they remain outsiders distanced from the local population. Here, the overview narrative considers "crazed Raskol'niki", and then reindeer and "their ancient powers of flight"; by implication it is now humans who are outsiders. The lengthy opening paragraph provides mosquitoes and wolves with knowing agency, before introducing "[o]ceangoing ships unmanned by visible crews". In the previous section Kit-as-mathematician refers to the Quaternion alternative to "what we think of as ordinary space" (783); here, the narrative, without necessarily adopting Kit's pov, takes up the question of displacement, eg Tierra del Fuego in Siberia, the ship that has run aground (784). In this novel, since the publication of the blurb, a key question has concerned the how of it all, how a post-realist writer would choose to represent the 'travel' that was highlighted at the outset. The current section--written less as montage than as bricolage--indicates succinctly how the novel has gone about answering such questions. Such phenomena as are described are given as aspects of local folklore. The mosquitoes "[are] observed congregating in large swarms at local taverns"; the wolves "[are] reported to be especially fond of Matthew 7:15"; and "[e]ntire villages came to the conclusion that they were not where they ought to be", evidently after some discussion. As with Prance being though Japanese (783), the only reality is that which has been rendered discursively, eg "reports of a figure walking through the aftermath" (785). Hence, "... as the Event receded in memory, arguments arose as to whether this or that had even happened at all". In the final sentence of this section Kit and Prance reappear with "the forest ... back to normal": normality defined in human/rational terms, eg "the animals fallen speechless again, tree-shadows again pointing in their accustomed directions". The locals are left with the mysterious loss of Magyakan; while Kit and Prance are compelled to go on, to move forward, whatever that means. In neither case is 'rational' explanation possible. From dpayne1912 at hotmail.com Tue Jul 15 01:32:39 2008 From: dpayne1912 at hotmail.com (David Payne) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2008 06:32:39 +0000 Subject: Repost: The Big One In-Reply-To: <28153830.1216093467828.JavaMail.root@elwamui-huard.atl.sa.earthlink.net> References: <28153830.1216093467828.JavaMail.root@elwamui-huard.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 14 Jul 2008 (23:44:27 -0400), Laura (kelber at mindspring.com) wrote: > If you're expecting an impassioned defense of TRP's ability to draw well-rounded characters, you won't be getting it from me. Well, no, actually, I wasn't, which is why I said it was a joke, satire. And that's twice I've apparently unintentionally implied something that I did not mean to convey. I'll try asking questions for the third time and then just shut up, which seems, perhaps, to be desired. Sticking with the topic at hand, don't most writers create rounded characters by presenting a moral dilemma and then demonstrating the character's inner struggle and the resulting moral evolution? Does Pynchon do this? If not, why? If so, where and why? (Some postings have already answered this as "yes"; specifically, both Laura and Mark pointed to Frank and the train crash on page 985.) Finally, does Pynchon's moral view point extend beyond the reaction of his characters' individual personal reactions to their individual dilemmas? Please take my comments a face value, b/c my son bought ice cream from an ice-cream truck for the first time yesterday. Boy-oh-boy was he ever excited to learn that people actually drive around in trucks full of ice cream on hot summer days, trying to unload their merchandise. _________________________________________________________________ Making the world a better place one message at a time. http://www.imtalkathon.com/?source=EML_WLH_Talkathon_BetterPlace From bekker2 at mac.com Tue Jul 15 02:41:00 2008 From: bekker2 at mac.com (Bekah) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2008 00:41:00 -0700 Subject: Repost: The Big One In-Reply-To: References: <28153830.1216093467828.JavaMail.root@elwamui-huard.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <672BCA3A-FB42-4E42-9CD5-3F9B57FAFF20@mac.com> On Jul 14, 2008, at 11:32 PM, David Payne wrote: > > Sticking with the topic at hand, don't most writers create rounded > characters by presenting a moral dilemma and then demonstrating the > character's inner struggle and the resulting moral evolution? No, there are many writers who don't create rounded characters by presenting moral dilemmas. Detective and science fiction novels don't usually have rounded characters - for a couple entire genres. Their focus is on plot and ideas or technology (there are some exceptions, of course). And some novelists may want to tackle issues other than the ones where a couple well-rounded characters demonstrate personal character growth through moral problem resolution. (And just about all novels have several "stock" type characters - flattish, undeveloped/under-developed ) so that the focus is on two or three main ones. Gabriel Garcia Marquez has flattish characters (although this may be in the mind of the beholder) because he wants the focus on the folkish tales which make up his magical realism. Don DeLillo has flattish characters because he wants the focus on the "big-issue" themes - media, paranoia, etc. Actually, I think quite a lot of post-modern fiction has flattish characters because the author is putting emphasis on the style or structure as well as "big issues." Alienation can sometimes come off as flat. I think Pynchon used flat characters in much of his fiction so that he could explore other very "generalized" issues like the patterns of history, the beliefs in/of technology, systems of belief, religion and the occult, recurring class and cultural issues, stuff like that. I think he uses a lot of characters in his books so that he can dig into the themes from more angles. Who needs two well rounded characters developing a theme of class issues or "revisionist/ alternative" history when you can have a dozen flat ones coming at it from a dozen perspectives? Bekah (and the rest of David's post: > Does Pynchon do this? > > If not, why? If so, where and why? (Some postings have already > answered this as "yes"; specifically, both Laura and Mark pointed > to Frank and the train crash on page 985.) > > Finally, does Pynchon's moral view point extend beyond the reaction > of his characters' individual personal reactions to their > individual dilemmas? > > Please take my comments a face value, b/c my son bought ice cream > from an ice-cream truck for the first time yesterday. Boy-oh-boy > was he ever excited to learn that people actually drive around in > trucks full of ice cream on hot summer days, trying to unload their > merchandise. > > From paul.mackin at verizon.net Tue Jul 15 06:03:36 2008 From: paul.mackin at verizon.net (Paul Mackin) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2008 07:03:36 -0400 Subject: Repost: The Big One In-Reply-To: References: <28153830.1216093467828.JavaMail.root@elwamui-huard.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <487C8408.1010701@verizon.net> David Payne wrote: > On Mon, 14 Jul 2008 (23:44:27 -0400), Laura (kelber at mindspring.com) wrote: > > >> If you're expecting an impassioned defense of TRP's ability to draw well-rounded characters, you won't be getting it from me. >> > > Well, no, actually, I wasn't, which is why I said it was a joke, satire. > > And that's twice I've apparently unintentionally implied something that I did not mean to convey. > > I'll try asking questions for the third time and then just shut up, which seems, perhaps, to be desired. > > Sticking with the topic at hand, don't most writers create rounded characters by presenting a moral dilemma and then demonstrating the character's inner struggle and the resulting moral evolution? > > Does Pynchon do this? > > If not, why? If so, where and why? (Some postings have already answered this as "yes"; specifically, both Laura and Mark pointed to Frank and the train crash on page 985.) > > Finally, does Pynchon's moral view point extend beyond the reaction of his characters' individual personal reactions to their individual dilemmas? > > Please take my comments a face value, b/c my son bought ice cream from an ice-cream truck for the first time yesterday. Boy-oh-boy was he ever excited to learn that people actually drive around in trucks full of ice cream on hot summer days, trying to unload their merchandise. > > > I want to commend David P. for attempting--and succeeding to the extent humanly possible--to bring some intelligibility to this thread. It had been such a muddle. The suggested change in terminology set forth in his previous post is helpful. I still haven't figured out how to say what i personally think on the topic. I do pretty well know what I DON'T think. P. From markekohut at yahoo.com Tue Jul 15 06:57:11 2008 From: markekohut at yahoo.com (Mark Kohut) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2008 04:57:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Repost: The Big One In-Reply-To: <487C8408.1010701@verizon.net> Message-ID: <700775.83210.qm@web38408.mail.mud.yahoo.com> A few obs. I have often thought that the non-rounded characters in much of Pynchon's work is because we real human beings aren't too "round" in our current degraded world,in Pynchon's worledview. What about Mason & Dixon? Are they not among the 'round" characters? And is it because they lived when they could be, so to speak? I do think that is part of Pynchon's full works view. A: Yes, there is an narrator, an authorial presence in Pynchon's work that contains an (often moral) perspective that is NOT his characters' perspectives. Often, it is what James, (Henry) called an effaced narrator (or limited omniscience) wherein what we are being told by the narrator is the same as the (textual) omniscience of the character. It does mean we have to read with full attentionn to sort,I think, no surprise here. [example: In V., when the photographer interrupts Benny in bed right before the big O, as the "narrator" speaks Benny's mind. ] Against the Day is LOADED with perspectives on the characters from LEVELS of narrator consciousness, "omniscience", since parts of the book are another Chums adventure, a written story. Most characters' stories are told by a narrator, an author, who has/embeds a perspective on them---and, as in most fiction, we judge by moral standards as well. We have yet to see most of the author's perspectives on many of the characters fully, I say speaking for myself at least. --- On Tue, 7/15/08, Paul Mackin wrote: > From: Paul Mackin > Subject: Re: Repost: The Big One > To: pynchon-l at waste.org > Date: Tuesday, July 15, 2008, 7:03 AM > David Payne wrote: > > On Mon, 14 Jul 2008 (23:44:27 -0400), Laura > (kelber at mindspring.com) wrote: > > > > > >> If you're expecting an impassioned defense of > TRP's ability to draw well-rounded characters, you > won't be getting it from me. > >> > > > > Well, no, actually, I wasn't, which is why I said > it was a joke, satire. > > > > And that's twice I've apparently > unintentionally implied something that I did not mean to > convey. > > > > I'll try asking questions for the third time and > then just shut up, which seems, perhaps, to be desired. > > > > Sticking with the topic at hand, don't most > writers create rounded characters by presenting a moral > dilemma and then demonstrating the character's inner > struggle and the resulting moral evolution? > > > > Does Pynchon do this? > > > > If not, why? If so, where and why? (Some postings have > already answered this as "yes"; specifically, both > Laura and Mark pointed to Frank and the train crash on page > 985.) > > > > Finally, does Pynchon's moral view point extend > beyond the reaction of his characters' individual > personal reactions to their individual dilemmas? > > > > Please take my comments a face value, b/c my son > bought ice cream from an ice-cream truck for the first time > yesterday. Boy-oh-boy was he ever excited to learn that > people actually drive around in trucks full of ice cream on > hot summer days, trying to unload their merchandise. > > > > > > > > I want to commend David P. for attempting--and succeeding > to the extent > humanly possible--to bring some intelligibility to this > thread. It had > been such a muddle. The suggested change in terminology set > forth in his > previous post is helpful. I still haven't figured out > how to say what i > personally think on the topic. I do pretty well know what > I DON'T think. > > P. From kelber at mindspring.com Tue Jul 15 09:14:20 2008 From: kelber at mindspring.com (kelber at mindspring.com) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2008 10:14:20 -0400 (GMT-04:00) Subject: Repost: The Big One Message-ID: <29710890.1216131261183.JavaMail.root@elwamui-huard.atl.sa.earthlink.net> I've never been bothered by the lack of "roundedness" of TRP's characters until ATD. As Bekah said, he's more interested in exploring themes, and I don't have a problem with that. He's often done pretty well with his characters. Slothrop is pretty endearing, as a kind of goofy, good-natured hedonist, and I think TRP did a great job of portraying the friendship and even love between Mason and Dixon. The final scene where Mason goes to visit the invalid Dixon is extremely moving. What disappoints me about ATD is the lack of a protagonist (or even a dual protagonist, as in V or M&D). I understand the intellectual choice: he's writing about anarchy and chaos and [obliquely, (I'm guessing) relativity and quantum theory], so the lack of a central protagonist or even narrator emphasizes these themes. Still, there are too many characters with too much overlap between them. What roles do Reef and Kit and Dally play that couldn't be picked up by others? He needs the bodies to circumnavigate the globe but why not have Yasmeen seek Shambhala (and her father) in Central Asia, ultimately encountering Tunguska, wrestling with math as a spiritual versus a destructive force. Cyprian can have the Balkans: the encroachment of technology (the Interdikt) on the indigenous and spiritual. Frank has Mexico: when does anarchism cross the line from justice to murder as he grapples with the weight of needing to avenge his father's death. Tossing Reef, Kit and Dally into the mix obscures rather than enlightens these central issues. Just a thought, anyway. Laura -----Original Message----- >From: Mark Kohut > >A few obs. > >I have often thought that the non-rounded characters in much of Pynchon's work is because we real human beings aren't too "round" in our current degraded world,in Pynchon's worledview. > >What about Mason & Dixon? Are they not among the 'round" characters? And is it because they lived when they could be, so to speak? I do think that is part of Pynchon's full works view. > >A: Yes, there is an narrator, an authorial presence in Pynchon's work that >contains an (often moral) perspective that is NOT his characters' perspectives. Often, it is what James, (Henry) called an effaced narrator >(or limited omniscience) wherein what we are being told by the narrator is the same as the (textual) omniscience of the character. It does mean we have to read with full attentionn to sort,I think, no surprise here. > >[example: In V., when the photographer interrupts Benny in bed right before the big O, as the "narrator" speaks Benny's mind. ] > >Against the Day is LOADED with perspectives on the characters from LEVELS of narrator consciousness, "omniscience", since parts of the book are another Chums adventure, a written story. Most characters' stories are told by a narrator, an author, who has/embeds a perspective on them---and, as in most fiction, we judge by moral standards as well. We have yet to see >most of the author's perspectives on many of the characters fully, I say speaking for myself at least. > > >--- On Tue, 7/15/08, Paul Mackin wrote: > >> From: Paul Mackin >> Subject: Re: Repost: The Big One >> To: pynchon-l at waste.org >> Date: Tuesday, July 15, 2008, 7:03 AM >> David Payne wrote: >> > On Mon, 14 Jul 2008 (23:44:27 -0400), Laura >> (kelber at mindspring.com) wrote: >> > >> > >> >> If you're expecting an impassioned defense of >> TRP's ability to draw well-rounded characters, you >> won't be getting it from me. >> >> >> > >> > Well, no, actually, I wasn't, which is why I said >> it was a joke, satire. >> > >> > And that's twice I've apparently >> unintentionally implied something that I did not mean to >> convey. >> > >> > I'll try asking questions for the third time and >> then just shut up, which seems, perhaps, to be desired. >> > >> > Sticking with the topic at hand, don't most >> writers create rounded characters by presenting a moral >> dilemma and then demonstrating the character's inner >> struggle and the resulting moral evolution? >> > >> > Does Pynchon do this? >> > >> > If not, why? If so, where and why? (Some postings have >> already answered this as "yes"; specifically, both >> Laura and Mark pointed to Frank and the train crash on page >> 985.) >> > >> > Finally, does Pynchon's moral view point extend >> beyond the reaction of his characters' individual >> personal reactions to their individual dilemmas? >> > >> > Please take my comments a face value, b/c my son >> bought ice cream from an ice-cream truck for the first time >> yesterday. Boy-oh-boy was he ever excited to learn that >> people actually drive around in trucks full of ice cream on >> hot summer days, trying to unload their merchandise. >> > >> > >> > >> >> I want to commend David P. for attempting--and succeeding >> to the extent >> humanly possible--to bring some intelligibility to this >> thread. It had >> been such a muddle. The suggested change in terminology set >> forth in his >> previous post is helpful. I still haven't figured out >> how to say what i >> personally think on the topic. I do pretty well know what >> I DON'T think. >> >> P. > > > From g.i.s.pursey at reading.ac.uk Tue Jul 15 10:30:47 2008 From: g.i.s.pursey at reading.ac.uk (Guy Ian Scott Pursey) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2008 16:30:47 +0100 Subject: Pondering an M&D road trip... In-Reply-To: <000b01c8e4f6$c9842eb0$5c8c8c10$@com> References: <10937403.1215958092970.JavaMail.root@elwamui-huard.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <000b01c8e4f6$c9842eb0$5c8c8c10$@com> Message-ID: <0A9745774F2BF6409F9544231DCC2661091C3600@vime1.rdg-home.ad.rdg.ac.uk> For a few years, I've been thinking about actually travelling to the U.S. to make this trip - I'm from the UK but am fascinated by American history, society, etc. I would love to do a postgraduate degree in America on M&D but know very little about the U.S. higher education system... If anyone has any advice/information, I'd really appreciate it! As for my own "story" - well, it's not much of one: I was reading M&D for the first time and as I was coming to the end, I was asked to attend a conference in Durham. I read some of the book on the train and, as we were pulling into Durham, that's where the book's action moved to. I walked down to look at the River Wear and actually finished the book during my stay there. Now, whenever I'm asked to attend or speak at a conference, I take a Pynchon book with me - both as a kind of strange "comfort" and in case any little connections come up, leading me onto some bigger or better perspective on the world... Guy x -----Original Message----- From: owner-pynchon-l at waste.org [mailto:owner-pynchon-l at waste.org] On Behalf Of Henry Sent: 13 July 2008 15:43 To: Pynchon Liste Subject: RE: Pondering an M&D road trip... Great story, Laura! A few of us rebs met up with some of the NY Yankee P-Listers in Newark, uh, Delaware, and we drove around Until we found a marker Not long before it started to get darker. The ground was too muddy for one of the women, but none of the cow-men knew her! (It really was muddy, but all were valiant!) I still have the pics that we took, one of a few inside and one whole-sick-crew-shot outside of the tavern where we stopped for libations. I remember that when we had an end-of-the-night desert at a diner, the waitress had never heard of having cheddar with your apple pie. Oh, my! HENRY MUSIKAR Information, Media, and Technology Consultant http://my.barackobama.com/page/community/blog/henrymu -----Original Message----- From: Laura Kelber It sounds like a fun thing to do. Before I started lurking on this list (back in 2003?) I think that a couple of p-listers actually made a pilgrimage to some of the stone markers (maybe during the group read of M&D?). My own experience was more modest, but certainly unforgettable. I had just finished reading M&D and we (me, my husband and our three kids) were visiting friends in Maryland, from whence we were going to visit friends in Harrisburg, PA. So naturally, I suggested we look for the Mason-Dixon line. We found a website http://www.mdlpp.org/ (unfortunately it's under construction at the moment, but there must be others) which gave us the locations of the stone markers that were still there and instructions for finding them. We headed for one that was in the general area where we'd be crossing the border. It was located in a privately owned field, but the website said the owners didn't mind people stopping to look. We were a little uncertain about the whole thing but stopped in at a local historical society, about a mile from the Maryland-Pennsylvania border. The nice people there had heard of the Mason-Dixon line but were pretty sure it was located somewhere in the Deep South. We drove a mile to the border, located the field, hopped out of the car and found ourselves (all 5 of us) shin deep in freshly spread cow manure. With little option, we pressed on and found the marker. It was actually really exciting to find as it was in good condition and the M and P were very legible. After that, it was a sad story. We had to discard our shoes and socks. We drove around the Gettysburg area desperately looking for a shoe store. People kept directing us to stores that sold antique boots for Civil War reenactments. Finally, we found a soulless, suburban shoe emporium that was understaffed enough so that no one threw us out when we all walked in barefoot. It's a history lesson my kids will never forget. Have fun and tell us all about it! Laura From scuffling at gmail.com Tue Jul 15 11:05:14 2008 From: scuffling at gmail.com (Henry) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2008 12:05:14 -0400 Subject: Pondering an M&D road trip... In-Reply-To: <0A9745774F2BF6409F9544231DCC2661091C3600@vime1.rdg-home.ad.rdg.ac.uk> References: <10937403.1215958092970.JavaMail.root@elwamui-huard.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <000b01c8e4f6$c9842eb0$5c8c8c10$@com> <0A9745774F2BF6409F9544231DCC2661091C3600@vime1.rdg-home.ad.rdg.ac.uk> Message-ID: <00a301c8e694$92146ea0$b63d4be0$@com> Guy, your post kicked me in the keister! I'm now thinking about Anglophilia in Pynch-Lit (Maybe I'll go back to school some day and actually write a paper! Nah. Doubt it.). Slothrop et al in LONDON! The Candy Drill! A-and Anglophile Japanese fellow from Hiroshima on the boat in GR! TWITS! Mason and Dixon! The list goes on! Why, P's books are almost as much of Brit as Yank! Henry Mu Information, Media, and Technology Consultant http://my.barackobama.com/page/community/blog/henrymu -----Original Message----- Could we snip things a little for the sake of indexing and our lower-speed Internet comrades? From igrlivingston at gmail.com Tue Jul 15 12:08:00 2008 From: igrlivingston at gmail.com (Ian Livingston) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2008 10:08:00 -0700 Subject: Repost: The Big One In-Reply-To: References: <28153830.1216093467828.JavaMail.root@elwamui-huard.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <95cde1ee0807151008t71d5fff3y181749950c8d6cf7@mail.gmail.com> Well, Maybe I'm confused about what makes a character "round." Many authors, yes, offer characters from within, if you will, talking about their moral and intellectual struggles as if the author and therefore the reader were, in fact, occupying that character's ego. Many other authors present characters that become quite well-rounded without ever getting inside the character's head. Hemmingway comes quickly to mind. Joyce, too, on occasion, and his smarter sister in crime, Virginia Woolf. It seems to me that what makes a character more or less round is the degree of change that character evidences over the course of the narrative. For instance, how much does Cyprian change, or deepen as we get to know him? Frank? Vibe? Dally? Yash? Kit? etc. It seems to me some of these characters are more rounded than others, because we get to know them better and watch them change over time, deepen as individuals. Vibe is clearly flat, stock. He *is* the greed he is meant to portray and nothing more. The point is, moral struggle is not necessarily something we have to explicitly hear. We can observe it. When Yashmeen loses her ability to warp space and time, what do we know about her experience of that loss? (or gain?) When people experience moral turmoil it really is rather rare that they are able to formulate the questions, much less explicitly contemplate the issues involved. Why should it be otherwise with characters? After all, characters are the issue of human intelligence, they are born of the workings of an individual mind, shadows cast on the cave wall by the interior light of the microcosmic Sol. Is it not proper that they should resemble us? I have often been alienated and dismayed by characters who seem to know too much about themselves and the world, who are not a little lost in things and acting largely on impulse, mostly mimetically. It is something I especially like about Pynchon's characters that they are so often mute on the subject of subjective experience and, when we do see or hear their subjective experience, it is so often a sort of "Whoa! What's happening here?" Not some concise summary of the intellectual and moral consequences of everything a la Hesse or Frank Herbert, perhaps even Cormac McCarthy at times. We do not, for instance, hear Cyprian's cognitive struggles over his decision to stay at the convent, to leave his worldly lovers in favor of a divine lover. But we see that he changes as a result of the subjective turmoil. He doesn't just jump ship, he is torn and decides. Little as I identify with him at some levels, it is the *way* he negotiates his doubts that makes him a powerful, round character. But then, maybe I am mistaken about "roundness." And if Oedipa is flat, I am really confused. Or Katje. Or Pugnax, for that matter. On Mon, Jul 14, 2008 at 11:32 PM, David Payne wrote: > > On Mon, 14 Jul 2008 (23:44:27 -0400), Laura (kelber at mindspring.com) wrote: > > > If you're expecting an impassioned defense of TRP's ability to draw > well-rounded characters, you won't be getting it from me. > > Well, no, actually, I wasn't, which is why I said it was a joke, satire. > > And that's twice I've apparently unintentionally implied something that I > did not mean to convey. > > I'll try asking questions for the third time and then just shut up, which > seems, perhaps, to be desired. > > Sticking with the topic at hand, don't most writers create rounded > characters by presenting a moral dilemma and then demonstrating the > character's inner struggle and the resulting moral evolution? > > Does Pynchon do this? > > If not, why? If so, where and why? (Some postings have already answered > this as "yes"; specifically, both Laura and Mark pointed to Frank and the > train crash on page 985.) > > Finally, does Pynchon's moral view point extend beyond the reaction of his > characters' individual personal reactions to their individual dilemmas? > > Please take my comments a face value, b/c my son bought ice cream from an > ice-cream truck for the first time yesterday. Boy-oh-boy was he ever excited > to learn that people actually drive around in trucks full of ice cream on > hot summer days, trying to unload their merchandise. > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Making the world a better place one message at a time. > http://www.imtalkathon.com/?source=EML_WLH_Talkathon_BetterPlace > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From scuffling at gmail.com Tue Jul 15 12:16:28 2008 From: scuffling at gmail.com (Henry) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2008 13:16:28 -0400 Subject: Repost: The Big One In-Reply-To: <95cde1ee0807151008t71d5fff3y181749950c8d6cf7@mail.gmail.com> References: <28153830.1216093467828.JavaMail.root@elwamui-huard.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <95cde1ee0807151008t71d5fff3y181749950c8d6cf7@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <00d501c8e69e$857b9830$9072c890$@com> Slothrop and Pig Bodine were round. Henry Mu Information, Media, and Technology Consultant http://my.barackobama.com/page/community/blog/henrymu -----Original Message----- From: Ian Livingston Well, Maybe I'm confused about what makes a character "round."  From mryc2903 at yahoo.fr Tue Jul 15 12:57:43 2008 From: mryc2903 at yahoo.fr (Michel Ryckx) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2008 19:57:43 +0200 Subject: Pynchon's neighbour is 17 ... In-Reply-To: <487CE495.3050905@yahoo.fr> References: <487CE495.3050905@yahoo.fr> Message-ID: <487CE517.5000808@yahoo.fr> about same age as Jackson Pynchon... Quote: *I've been living in the same apartment building since I was 4 (I'm 17 now), and I only found out about a month ago that my neighbor is Thomas Pynchon. To me, he had always just been "Tom", and that is what my family and I always called him. We all knew he was Thomas Pynchon, it just never registered to us that he was THE Thomas Pynchon until some chick at my school told me she knew his son, and that he is an author. My building is set up weird, so that there are only two apartments per floor, per elevator, so my fam and his fam share a hallway. Probably the only people who will know who this is are those who have some knowledge of 20th/21st century American literature. Y'all would know why this is somewhat of a big deal.* http://niketalk.yuku.com/topic/88867 Thanks to one of the IPW 2008 contenders -- a brilliant new voice Michel. ___________________________________________________________________________ Yahoo! Mail réinvente le mail ! Découvrez le nouveau Yahoo! Mail et son interface révolutionnaire. http://fr.mail.yahoo.com From robinlandseadel at comcast.net Tue Jul 15 13:03:41 2008 From: robinlandseadel at comcast.net (robinlandseadel at comcast.net) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2008 18:03:41 +0000 Subject: Repost: The Big One Message-ID: <071520081803.9347.487CE67D000AA993000024832212020784040A0B0E0A9C0B020E0402070D019D@comcast.net> "Ian Livingston: And if Oedipa is flat, I am really confused. Part of the reason CoL 49 is my favorite is that Via Oed we find ourselves inside the head of someone on the verge of revelation, with all the emotional turmoil and strangeness that goes into that experience of internal transformation. -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: "Ian Livingston" Subject: Re: Repost: The Big One Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2008 17:10:20 +0000 Size: 5911 URL: From igrlivingston at gmail.com Tue Jul 15 14:14:23 2008 From: igrlivingston at gmail.com (Ian Livingston) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2008 12:14:23 -0700 Subject: Repost: The Big One In-Reply-To: <071520081803.9347.487CE67D000AA993000024832212020784040A0B0E0A9C0B020E0402070D019D@comcast.net> References: <071520081803.9347.487CE67D000AA993000024832212020784040A0B0E0A9C0B020E0402070D019D@comcast.net> Message-ID: <95cde1ee0807151214s488ea692k32923c5f66b106d3@mail.gmail.com> True enough. It's not that TRP doesn't give us inside looks, it's just that he doesn't rely on them. He let's the reader work more often than not. I guess that's part of why he is difficult for some, delightful to others. On Tue, Jul 15, 2008 at 11:03 AM, wrote: > "Ian Livingston: > And if Oedipa is flat, I am really confused. > > Part of the reason CoL 49 is my favorite is that Via Oed we find ourselves > inside the head of someone on the verge of revelation, with all the > emotional turmoil and strangeness that goes into that experience of internal > transformation. > > > > > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: "Ian Livingston" > To: "David Payne" , pynchon-l at waste.org > Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2008 17:10:20 +0000 > Subject: Re: Repost: The Big One > > Well, > > Maybe I'm confused about what makes a character "round." Many authors, > yes, offer characters from within, if you will, talking about their moral > and intellectual struggles as if the author and therefore the reader were, > in fact, occupying that character's ego. Many other authors present > characters that become quite well-rounded without ever getting inside the > character's head. Hemmingway comes quickly to mind. Joyce, too, on > occasion, and his smarter sister in crime, Virginia Woolf. It seems to me > that what makes a character more or less round is the degree of change that > character evidences over the course of the narrative. For instance, how > much does Cyprian change, or deepen as we get to know him? Frank? Vibe? > Dally? Yash? Kit? etc. It seems to me some of these characters are more > rounded than others, because we get to know them better and watch them > change over time, deepen as individuals. Vibe is clearly flat, stock. He > *is* the greed he is meant to portray and nothing more. > > The point is, moral struggle is not necessarily something we have to > explicitly hear. We can observe it. When Yashmeen loses her ability to > warp space and time, what do we know about her experience of that loss? (or > gain?) When people experience moral turmoil it really is rather rare that > they are able to formulate the questions, much less explicitly contemplate > the issues involved. Why should it be otherwise with characters? After > all, characters are the issue of human intelligence, they are born of the > workings of an individual mind, shadows cast on the cave wall by the > interior light of the microcosmic Sol. Is it not proper that they should > resemble us? I have often been alienated and dismayed by characters who > seem to know too much about themselves and the world, who are not a little > lost in things and acting largely on impulse, mostly mimetically. It is > something I especially like about Pynchon's characters that they are so > often mute on the subject of subjective experience and, when we do see or > hear their subjective experience, it is so often a sort of "Whoa! What's > happening here?" Not some concise summary of the intellectual and moral > consequences of everything a la Hesse or Frank Herbert, perhaps even Cormac > McCarthy at times. We do not, for instance, hear Cyprian's cognitive > struggles over his decision to stay at the convent, to leave his worldly > lovers in favor of a divine lover. But we see that he changes as a result > of the subjective turmoil. He doesn't just jump ship, he is torn and > decides. Little as I identify with him at some levels, it is the *way* he > negotiates his doubts that makes him a powerful, round character. > > But then, maybe I am mistaken about "roundness." > > And if Oedipa is flat, I am really confused. Or Katje. Or Pugnax, for > that matter. > > On Mon, Jul 14, 2008 at 11:32 PM, David Payne > wrote: > >> >> On Mon, 14 Jul 2008 (23:44:27 -0400), Laura (kelber at mindspring.com) >> wrote: >> >> > If you're expecting an impassioned defense of TRP's ability to draw >> well-rounded characters, you won't be getting it from me. >> >> Well, no, actually, I wasn't, which is why I said it was a joke, satire. >> >> And that's twice I've apparently unintentionally implied something that I >> did not mean to convey. >> >> I'll try asking questions for the third time and then just shut up, which >> seems, perhaps, to be desired. >> >> Sticking with the topic at hand, don't most writers create rounded >> characters by presenting a moral dilemma and then demonstrating the >> character's inner struggle and the resulting moral evolution? >> >> Does Pynchon do this? >> >> If not, why? If so, where and why? (Some postings have already answered >> this as "yes"; specifically, both Laura and Mark pointed to Frank and the >> train crash on page 985.) >> >> Finally, does Pynchon's moral view point extend beyond the reaction of his >> characters' individual personal reactions to their individual dilemmas? >> >> Please take my comments a face value, b/c my son bought ice cream from an >> ice-cream truck for the first time yesterday. Boy-oh-boy was he ever excited >> to learn that people actually drive around in trucks full of ice cream on >> hot summer days, trying to unload their merchandise. >> >> >> _________________________________________________________________ >> Making the world a better place one message at a time. >> http://www.imtalkathon.com/?source=EML_WLH_Talkathon_BetterPlace >> > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From markekohut at yahoo.com Tue Jul 15 15:51:09 2008 From: markekohut at yahoo.com (Mark Kohut) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2008 13:51:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Repost: The Big One In-Reply-To: <95cde1ee0807151008t71d5fff3y181749950c8d6cf7@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <494617.64342.qm@web38403.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Well. I believe E. M. Forster first articulated the 'flat' 'found' distinction in Aspects of the Novel. Flat means ruled (on the page) by an idee' fixe or couple-maybe three. They don't develop in the book. Many great novels, full of the roundest characters, are full of flat characters, too....Proust, even Austen, others. To set off. To make those social/political points. Dickens is full of vital flatheads, so to speak. Round means qualities, characteristics, thru psychological presentation [james, say] and actions full of breadth and depth...and in a full novel, development [change]....."capable of surprising in convincing ways" as someone has said. "Like the people we know", someone has said. My problem in sorting that out is: I know flat people; I am a flat person to many. Therefore, in the fictions I inhabit, what are we? --- On Tue, 7/15/08, Ian Livingston wrote: > From: Ian Livingston > Subject: Re: Repost: The Big One > To: "David Payne" , pynchon-l at waste.org > Date: Tuesday, July 15, 2008, 1:08 PM > Well, > > Maybe I'm confused about what makes a character > "round." Many authors, yes, > offer characters from within, if you will, talking about > their moral and > intellectual struggles as if the author and therefore the > reader were, in > fact, occupying that character's ego. Many other > authors present characters > that become quite well-rounded without ever getting inside > the character's > head. Hemmingway comes quickly to mind. Joyce, too, on > occasion, and his > smarter sister in crime, Virginia Woolf. It seems to me > that what makes a > character more or less round is the degree of change that > character > evidences over the course of the narrative. For instance, > how much does > Cyprian change, or deepen as we get to know him? Frank? > Vibe? Dally? > Yash? Kit? etc. It seems to me some of these characters > are more rounded > than others, because we get to know them better and watch > them change over > time, deepen as individuals. Vibe is clearly flat, stock. > He *is* the > greed he is meant to portray and nothing more. > > The point is, moral struggle is not necessarily something > we have to > explicitly hear. We can observe it. When Yashmeen loses > her ability to > warp space and time, what do we know about her experience > of that loss? (or > gain?) When people experience moral turmoil it really is > rather rare that > they are able to formulate the questions, much less > explicitly contemplate > the issues involved. Why should it be otherwise with > characters? After > all, characters are the issue of human intelligence, they > are born of the > workings of an individual mind, shadows cast on the cave > wall by the > interior light of the microcosmic Sol. Is it not proper > that they should > resemble us? I have often been alienated and dismayed by > characters who > seem to know too much about themselves and the world, who > are not a little > lost in things and acting largely on impulse, mostly > mimetically. It is > something I especially like about Pynchon's characters > that they are so > often mute on the subject of subjective experience and, > when we do see or > hear their subjective experience, it is so often a sort of > "Whoa! What's > happening here?" Not some concise summary of the > intellectual and moral > consequences of everything a la Hesse or Frank Herbert, > perhaps even Cormac > McCarthy at times. We do not, for instance, hear > Cyprian's cognitive > struggles over his decision to stay at the convent, to > leave his worldly > lovers in favor of a divine lover. But we see that he > changes as a result > of the subjective turmoil. He doesn't just jump ship, > he is torn and > decides. Little as I identify with him at some levels, it > is the *way* he > negotiates his doubts that makes him a powerful, round > character. > > But then, maybe I am mistaken about "roundness." > > And if Oedipa is flat, I am really confused. Or Katje. Or > Pugnax, for that > matter. > > On Mon, Jul 14, 2008 at 11:32 PM, David Payne > > wrote: > > > > > On Mon, 14 Jul 2008 (23:44:27 -0400), Laura > (kelber at mindspring.com) wrote: > > > > > If you're expecting an impassioned defense of > TRP's ability to draw > > well-rounded characters, you won't be getting it > from me. > > > > Well, no, actually, I wasn't, which is why I said > it was a joke, satire. > > > > And that's twice I've apparently > unintentionally implied something that I > > did not mean to convey. > > > > I'll try asking questions for the third time and > then just shut up, which > > seems, perhaps, to be desired. > > > > Sticking with the topic at hand, don't most > writers create rounded > > characters by presenting a moral dilemma and then > demonstrating the > > character's inner struggle and the resulting moral > evolution? > > > > Does Pynchon do this? > > > > If not, why? If so, where and why? (Some postings have > already answered > > this as "yes"; specifically, both Laura and > Mark pointed to Frank and the > > train crash on page 985.) > > > > Finally, does Pynchon's moral view point extend > beyond the reaction of his > > characters' individual personal reactions to their > individual dilemmas? > > > > Please take my comments a face value, b/c my son > bought ice cream from an > > ice-cream truck for the first time yesterday. > Boy-oh-boy was he ever excited > > to learn that people actually drive around in trucks > full of ice cream on > > hot summer days, trying to unload their merchandise. > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > Making the world a better place one message at a time. > > > http://www.imtalkathon.com/?source=EML_WLH_Talkathon_BetterPlace > > From bekker2 at mac.com Tue Jul 15 17:25:13 2008 From: bekker2 at mac.com (Bekah) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2008 15:25:13 -0700 Subject: Repost: The Big One In-Reply-To: <071520081803.9347.487CE67D000AA993000024832212020784040A0B0E0A9C0B020E0402070D019D@comcast.net> References: <071520081803.9347.487CE67D000AA993000024832212020784040A0B0E0A9C0B020E0402070D019D@comcast.net> Message-ID: First, I love PYnchon and I love Oedpia so there is no criticism in the following post! To use flat or rounded characters has no effect on the value of a work unless the author used flat ones where they should have been rounded because the themes are of personal change or something but you never do get to "know" the main character - disgusting books. I speak of "knowing" a character in terms of intimate knowing - not who, what, where, when - but the whys and wherefores of her. Pynchon is perfect in his use of flattish characters. We don't "know" them and "care" about them. We don't cry when they cry or rejoice at their success. We're not scared for them. They're always "characters in novel." We can describe these characters in a sentence or two (we might need pages to tell what they do). Rounded characters have a large emotional aspect, their personalities are developed as being unique and changeable. We feel like we "know" them as individual people and care about them and what happens to them. It takes pages to describe them and their ways but maybe only a page or two to tell what they actually do in the novel. (Btw, these terms are from E.M. Forster back in the 1920s or something and not meant for post-mod lit. Even he did not disparage flat characters - it's just an alternative an author makes about where the emphasis of a book will be. He said the characters of Dickens were somewhat flat. I think that only Tolstoy in War & Peace was able to deal successfully and so deeply with "big issues" and themes (history - fate) while developing fully developed and rounded characters as well. The careful reader "knows" Pierre and Natasha and shoot, even Napoleon. If I were to describe Pierre I could tell me about him as a person. If I described Oedipa I would basically tell you her demographics and put far more importance on her detection and what she did. I'm not going to say that Pynchon is the Tolstoy of the 20th / 21st century. We won't have one like him again. I think whether or not you see Oedipa as a "flattish" or "roundish" character is in comparison to what else you've read. If you've been reading a lot of pomo or sci-fi or detective novels she's as rounded as most. If you've been reading Middlemarch she is totally flat - like many post-modern characters to a person reading 19th century lit. The flat/round thing is a "range," not a black/white deal and it's relative to other characters and subjective - in the reader's response (to an extent). Oedipa starts out from Kinneret-Among-The-Pines as a typical "Tupperware" housewife with a rather boring but hipster type husband. This id announcing that she is a middle-class, married and moderately young and hip woman. So far I take Oedipa to be a "type" character and therefore "flattish." I don't really know "her." I know hundreds like her. That's the point - she is "everywoman." Oedipa's personality and character have to take backstage for the plot to get about its business developing the themes. She has a personality and a character but so does a detective in a crime novel - She's not the point of the book so Pynchon doesn't w.a.s.t.e. a lot of words in developing her as a unique and interesting character. Her development is not a part of the plot or themes. The themes which Pynchon explores, using Oedipa, as a vehicle, are paranoia, conspiracy, reality vs fiction, etc. In MY reading of this book, she's never emotionally fleshed out, she springs forth as fully developed as she's going to get in this book and her character doesn't really change much (find redemption). The text deals with her intellectual processes as she works from scene to scene trying to make sense of and follow the threads of Pierce Invararity's will. The theme has nothing to do with a change in Oedipa (although we can probably assume she does) - it has to do with conspiracies and all the things she tries to track down or sees or intuits and stuff. Hers is an intellectual challenge - like a detective - not a moral/personal development challenge. Bekah babbling On Jul 15, 2008, at 11:03 AM, robinlandseadel at comcast.net wrote: > "Ian Livingston: > And if Oedipa is flat, I am really confused. > > Part of the reason CoL 49 is my favorite is that Via Oed we find > ourselves inside the head of someone on the verge of revelation, > with all the emotional turmoil and strangeness that goes into that > experience of internal transformation. > > > > > > From: Ian Livingston > Date: July 15, 2008 10:10:20 AM PDT > To: David Payne , pynchon-l at waste.org > Subject: Re: Repost: The Big One > > > > Well, > > Maybe I'm confused about what makes a character "round." Many > authors, yes, offer characters from within, if you will, talking > about their moral and intellectual struggles as if the author and > therefore the reader were, in fact, occupying that character's > ego. Many other authors present characters that become quite well- > rounded without ever getting inside the character's head. > Hemmingway comes quickly to mind. Joyce, too, on occasion, and his > smarter sister in crime, Virginia Woolf. It seems to me that what > makes a character more or less round is the degree of change that > character evidences over the course of the narrative. For > instance, how much does Cyprian change, or deepen as we get to know > him? Frank? Vibe? Dally? Yash? Kit? etc. It seems to me some > of these characters are more rounded than others, because we get to > know them better and watch them change over time, deepen as > individuals. Vibe is clearly flat, stock. He is the greed he is > meant to portray and nothing more. > > The point is, moral struggle is not necessarily something we have > to explicitly hear. We can observe it. When Yashmeen loses her > ability to warp space and time, what do we know about her > experience of that loss? (or gain?) When people experience moral > turmoil it really is rather rare that they are able to formulate > the questions, much less explicitly contemplate the issues > involved. Why should it be otherwise with characters? After all, > characters are the issue of human intelligence, they are born of > the workings of an individual mind, shadows cast on the cave wall > by the interior light of the microcosmic Sol. Is it not proper > that they should resemble us? I have often been alienated and > dismayed by characters who seem to know too much about themselves > and the world, who are not a little lost in things and acting > largely on impulse, mostly mimetically. It is something I > especially like about Pynchon's characters that they are so often > mute on the subject of subjective experience and, when we do see or > hear their subjective experience, it is so often a sort of "Whoa! > What's happening here?" Not some concise summary of the > intellectual and moral consequences of everything a la Hesse or > Frank Herbert, perhaps even Cormac McCarthy at times. We do not, > for instance, hear Cyprian's cognitive struggles over his decision > to stay at the convent, to leave his worldly lovers in favor of a > divine lover. But we see that he changes as a result of the > subjective turmoil. He doesn't just jump ship, he is torn and > decides. Little as I identify with him at some levels, it is the > way he negotiates his doubts that makes him a powerful, round > character. > > But then, maybe I am mistaken about "roundness." > > And if Oedipa is flat, I am really confused. Or Katje. Or Pugnax, > for that matter. > > On Mon, Jul 14, 2008 at 11:32 PM, David Payne > wrote: > > On Mon, 14 Jul 2008 (23:44:27 -0400), Laura (kelber at mindspring.com) > wrote: > > > If you're expecting an impassioned defense of TRP's ability to > draw well-rounded characters, you won't be getting it from me. > > Well, no, actually, I wasn't, which is why I said it was a joke, > satire. > > And that's twice I've apparently unintentionally implied something > that I did not mean to convey. > > I'll try asking questions for the third time and then just shut up, > which seems, perhaps, to be desired. > > Sticking with the topic at hand, don't most writers create rounded > characters by presenting a moral dilemma and then demonstrating the > character's inner struggle and the resulting moral evolution? > > Does Pynchon do this? > > If not, why? If so, where and why? (Some postings have already > answered this as "yes"; specifically, both Laura and Mark pointed > to Frank and the train crash on page 985.) > > Finally, does Pynchon's moral view point extend beyond the reaction > of his characters' individual personal reactions to their > individual dilemmas? > > Please take my comments a face value, b/c my son bought ice cream > from an ice-cream truck for the first time yesterday. Boy-oh-boy > was he ever excited to learn that people actually drive around in > trucks full of ice cream on hot summer days, trying to unload their > merchandise. > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Making the world a better place one message at a time. > http://www.imtalkathon.com/?source=EML_WLH_Talkathon_BetterPlace > From markekohut at yahoo.com Tue Jul 15 20:31:00 2008 From: markekohut at yahoo.com (Mark Kohut) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2008 18:31:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Repost: The Big One In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <487502.31733.qm@web38406.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Good talking, Bekah. I have wondered if Pynchon's blurb for an early Rudolph Wurlitzer novel, which maybe had no cities as characters, sorta carried some of his thoughts on ye olde round and roundedness in fiction: "The novel of bullshit is dead".---TRP --- On Tue, 7/15/08, Bekah wrote: > From: Bekah > Subject: Re: Repost: The Big One > To: "P-list" > Date: Tuesday, July 15, 2008, 6:25 PM > First, I love PYnchon and I love Oedpia so there is no > criticism in > the following post! > > To use flat or rounded characters has no effect on the > value of a > work unless the author used flat ones where they should > have been > rounded because the themes are of personal change or > something but > you never do get to "know" the main character - > disgusting books. I > speak of "knowing" a character in terms of > intimate knowing - not > who, what, where, when - but the whys and wherefores of > her. > > Pynchon is perfect in his use of flattish characters. > We don't > "know" them and "care" about them. We > don't cry when they cry or > rejoice at their success. We're not scared for them. > They're > always "characters in novel." We can describe > these characters in a > sentence or two (we might need pages to tell what they do). > > Rounded characters have a large emotional aspect, their > personalities are developed as being unique and changeable. > We feel > like we "know" them as individual people and care > about them and what > happens to them. It takes pages to describe them and > their ways > but maybe only a page or two to tell what they actually do > in the novel. > > (Btw, these terms are from E.M. Forster back in the 1920s > or > something and not meant for post-mod lit. Even he did not > disparage > flat characters - it's just an alternative an author > makes about > where the emphasis of a book will be. He said the > characters of > Dickens were somewhat flat. > > I think that only Tolstoy in War & Peace was able to > deal > successfully and so deeply with "big issues" and > themes (history - > fate) while developing fully developed and rounded > characters as > well. The careful reader "knows" Pierre and > Natasha and shoot, > even Napoleon. If I were to describe Pierre I could tell > me about > him as a person. If I described Oedipa I would basically > tell you > her demographics and put far more importance on her > detection and > what she did. I'm not going to say that Pynchon is > the Tolstoy of > the 20th / 21st century. We won't have one like him > again. > > > I think whether or not you see Oedipa as a > "flattish" or "roundish" > character is in comparison to what else you've read. > If you've been > reading a lot of pomo or sci-fi or detective novels > she's as rounded > as most. If you've been reading Middlemarch she is > totally flat - > like many post-modern characters to a person reading 19th > century > lit. The flat/round thing is a "range," not a > black/white deal and > it's relative to other characters and subjective - in > the reader's > response (to an extent). > > > Oedipa starts out from Kinneret-Among-The-Pines as a > typical > "Tupperware" housewife with a rather boring but > hipster type > husband. This id announcing that she is a middle-class, > married > and moderately young and hip woman. So far I take > Oedipa to be a > "type" character and therefore > "flattish." I don't really know > "her." I know hundreds like her. That's > the point - she is > "everywoman." Oedipa's personality and > character have to take > backstage for the plot to get about its business developing > the > themes. She has a personality and a character but so does > a > detective in a crime novel - She's not the point of the > book so > Pynchon doesn't w.a.s.t.e. a lot of words in > developing her as a > unique and interesting character. Her development is > not a part > of the plot or themes. The themes which Pynchon explores, > using > Oedipa, as a vehicle, are paranoia, conspiracy, reality > vs > fiction, etc. In MY reading of this book, she's > never > emotionally fleshed out, she springs forth as fully > developed as > she's going to get in this book and her character > doesn't really > change much (find redemption). > > The text deals with her intellectual processes as she > works from > scene to scene trying to make sense of and follow the > threads of > Pierce Invararity's will. The theme has nothing to do > with a change > in Oedipa (although we can probably assume she does) - it > has to do > with conspiracies and all the things she tries to track > down or sees > or intuits and stuff. Hers is an intellectual challenge - > like a > detective - not a moral/personal development challenge. > > > Bekah > babbling > > > > > On Jul 15, 2008, at 11:03 AM, robinlandseadel at comcast.net > wrote: > > > "Ian Livingston: > > And if Oedipa is flat, I am really confused. > > > > Part of the reason CoL 49 is my favorite is that Via > Oed we find > > ourselves inside the head of someone on the verge of > revelation, > > with all the emotional turmoil and strangeness that > goes into that > > experience of internal transformation. > > > > > > > > > > > > From: Ian Livingston > > Date: July 15, 2008 10:10:20 AM PDT > > To: David Payne , > pynchon-l at waste.org > > Subject: Re: Repost: The Big One > > > > > > > > Well, > > > > Maybe I'm confused about what makes a character > "round." Many > > authors, yes, offer characters from within, if you > will, talking > > about their moral and intellectual struggles as if the > author and > > therefore the reader were, in fact, occupying that > character's > > ego. Many other authors present characters that > become quite well- > > rounded without ever getting inside the > character's head. > > Hemmingway comes quickly to mind. Joyce, too, on > occasion, and his > > smarter sister in crime, Virginia Woolf. It seems to > me that what > > makes a character more or less round is the degree of > change that > > character evidences over the course of the narrative. > For > > instance, how much does Cyprian change, or deepen as > we get to know > > him? Frank? Vibe? Dally? Yash? Kit? etc. It > seems to me some > > of these characters are more rounded than others, > because we get to > > know them better and watch them change over time, > deepen as > > individuals. Vibe is clearly flat, stock. He is the > greed he is > > meant to portray and nothing more. > > > > The point is, moral struggle is not necessarily > something we have > > to explicitly hear. We can observe it. When Yashmeen > loses her > > ability to warp space and time, what do we know about > her > > experience of that loss? (or gain?) When people > experience moral > > turmoil it really is rather rare that they are able to > formulate > > the questions, much less explicitly contemplate the > issues > > involved. Why should it be otherwise with characters? > After all, > > characters are the issue of human intelligence, they > are born of > > the workings of an individual mind, shadows cast on > the cave wall > > by the interior light of the microcosmic Sol. Is it > not proper > > that they should resemble us? I have often been > alienated and > > dismayed by characters who seem to know too much about > themselves > > and the world, who are not a little lost in things and > acting > > largely on impulse, mostly mimetically. It is > something I > > especially like about Pynchon's characters that > they are so often > > mute on the subject of subjective experience and, when > we do see or > > hear their subjective experience, it is so often a > sort of "Whoa! > > What's happening here?" Not some concise > summary of the > > intellectual and moral consequences of everything a la > Hesse or > > Frank Herbert, perhaps even Cormac McCarthy at times. > We do not, > > for instance, hear Cyprian's cognitive struggles > over his decision > > to stay at the convent, to leave his worldly lovers in > favor of a > > divine lover. But we see that he changes as a result > of the > > subjective turmoil. He doesn't just jump ship, he > is torn and > > decides. Little as I identify with him at some > levels, it is the > > way he negotiates his doubts that makes him a > powerful, round > > character. > > > > But then, maybe I am mistaken about > "roundness." > > > > And if Oedipa is flat, I am really confused. Or > Katje. Or Pugnax, > > for that matter. > > > > On Mon, Jul 14, 2008 at 11:32 PM, David Payne > > wrote: > > > > On Mon, 14 Jul 2008 (23:44:27 -0400), Laura > (kelber at mindspring.com) > > wrote: > > > > > If you're expecting an impassioned defense of > TRP's ability to > > draw well-rounded characters, you won't be getting > it from me. > > > > Well, no, actually, I wasn't, which is why I said > it was a joke, > > satire. > > > > And that's twice I've apparently > unintentionally implied something > > that I did not mean to convey. > > > > I'll try asking questions for the third time and > then just shut up, > > which seems, perhaps, to be desired. > > > > Sticking with the topic at hand, don't most > writers create rounded > > characters by presenting a moral dilemma and then > demonstrating the > > character's inner struggle and the resulting moral > evolution? > > > > Does Pynchon do this? > > > > If not, why? If so, where and why? (Some postings have > already > > answered this as "yes"; specifically, both > Laura and Mark pointed > > to Frank and the train crash on page 985.) > > > > Finally, does Pynchon's moral view point extend > beyond the reaction > > of his characters' individual personal reactions > to their > > individual dilemmas? > > > > Please take my comments a face value, b/c my son > bought ice cream > > from an ice-cream truck for the first time yesterday. > Boy-oh-boy > > was he ever excited to learn that people actually > drive around in > > trucks full of ice cream on hot summer days, trying to > unload their > > merchandise. > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > Making the world a better place one message at a time. > > > http://www.imtalkathon.com/?source=EML_WLH_Talkathon_BetterPlace > > From bekker2 at mac.com Tue Jul 15 21:18:53 2008 From: bekker2 at mac.com (Bekah) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2008 19:18:53 -0700 Subject: ATDTDA: (36) pgs 1030-1038 Message-ID: <2EB337F2-77B5-4B7F-B186-B9D24BC4D449@mac.com> And on to the Ætheronauts, light/dark and moving pictures **************** page 1030 * Sodality of Ætheronauts A sodality is a society; the ætheronauts use the æther as their medium of flight via mechanical wings - they are religious novices. The Chums figure they were destined to have families but the girls could never really go to earth so they nested on the city rooftops * nitronaphthol - engine fuel * chaffinch a pretty little bird http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaffinch **************** Page 1030 The girls' names are: * Heartsease - a flower - Viola tricolor - which has the medicinal quality of lifting the spirits, i.e., "Mends a broken heart" - she pairs up with Randolph * Primula - the Primrose (Primula vulgaris) has the medicinal quality of inducing sleep and she pairs up with Miles * Viridian, from the Latin for "green," and she's definitely "green", as demonstrated by this scolding of Chick Counterfly: "Fumes are not the future," pairs up with Chick * Blaze, "Burning dead dinosaurs and whatever they ate ain't the answer, Crankshaft Boy." pairs up with Darby "each had found her way to this Ætherist sorority through the mysteries of" - ta-da, ta-da... "inconvenience..." (lower case) such as a missed train or great waves of wind, light saturation ****************** page 1031 (what is this - a bunch of science stuff I have no comprehension of) Like Sidney and Beatrice Webb around here." - British socialists of the day. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beatrice_Webb The Chums flew northwest and found the City of our Lady - Queen of the Angels - Los Angeles was founded in 1781 as "Pueblo de Nuestra Señora la Reina de los Ángeles." Reina = Queen, fairly common female name in Spanish "... where on earth is this - that's sort of the problem - the on earth part." Indicating that this likely is the counter earth, although I don't know why this couldn't be the real earth and the other one was the counter earth. How could one tell? And the coming darkness cast by the light: And in Southern California light is flooding forth form suburban homes and so on - factory sky-lights - athletic fields, city plazas, automobile lights - "... they felt themselves an uneasy witness to some final conquest, a triumph over night whose motive none could quite grasp." **************** Page 1033 Light seems to have won over darkness, but that's not necessarily good news as there are side effects to the conquest of darkness: Labor now works overtime and xtra work-shifts? But there is additional employment - further expansion - The Chums debate briefly: "Yup groundhog sweat misery and early graves." more investment in these things and ... "I am as fond of the subjunctive mood as any." "fuck you," = "Long live capitalism" Darkness from the light: Miles: "Lucifer - son of the morning - bearer of light - Prince of Evil http://www.dpjs.co.uk/lucifer.html Isaiah's epithet for the King of Babylon with Christ's vision - according t o Luke, of Satan falling like lighting from heaven. http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=luke%2010:18-10:18&version=9 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucifer Satan - etc. But their "paycheck" bounces so our boys are in California without evident means of support **************** Page 1034 At a Hollywood hot dog stand called "Links" (like the very real Pinks of Hollywood?) ... http://www.pinkshollywood.com/pgz/history.htm (but Pinks opened in 1940 or so - ) Chick Counterfly runs into his father, Dick who drives a Packard and lives in a Beaux Arts mansion on West Adams with his 3rd wife, Treacle (dark and syrupy sweet - will probably rot your teeth). 1914 Packard - http://www.autogallery.org.ru/k/p/14pacmodel238touring_HMN.jpg Beaux Arts mansion http://architecture.about.com/od/periodsstyles/ig/House-Styles/Beaux- Arts.htm West Adams, LA http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Adams,_Los_Angeles,_California A large area of now historic homes in LA. "The West Adams area was developed between 1880 and 1925, and contains many diverse architectural styles of the era. Architectural styles seen in West Adams include the Queen Anne, Shingle, Gothic Revival, Transitional Arts and Crafts, American Craftsman/Ultimate Bungalow, Craftsman Bungalow, Colonial Revival, Renaissance Revival, Mediterranean Revival, Spanish Colonial Revival, Mission Revival, Egyptian Revival, Beaux-Arts and Neoclassical styles. West Adams boasts the only Greene and Greene house in Los Angeles. Its historic homes are frequently used as locations for movies and TV shows including CSI, Six Feet Under, The Shield, Monk, Confessions of a Dangerous Mind and Of Mice and Men." Dick shows off his machinery - a big spinning disk - Nipkow scanner 1884 which was invented by Paul Nipkow in 1884 and used for very early stages of television. Although capable of high-speed scanning, conventional Nipkow disks failed to provide enough amounts of light to image fluorescence from live cells. http://www.yokogawa.com/scanner/products/csu10e.htm http://www.diycalculator.com/popup-h-console.shtml#A3 They apparently access Gilligan's Island what with the sailor-hatted monkey (Dobey Gillis), the palm tree and the Skipper showing up on the screen. Dick says he picks this one up every week. **************** Page 1035 Chick and Dick go to meet Merle Rideout and Roswell Bounce at the Van Nuys balloon field. Roswell is paranoid **************** Page 1036 Oxone . . . Blattnerphone components Oxone - a type of oxidizer The Blattnerphone recorder http://www.collectionscanada.gc.ca/ gramophone/m2-3021.3-e.html Fleming valve http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fleming_valve Lee De Forest added that grid electrode to the Fleming valve The Fleming valve--named for British electrical engineer Sir John Ambrose Fleming (1849–1945)--was an early form of diode (a vacuum tube in which electrons flow in one direction, from a heated filament to a plate). In 1907, De Forest (AtD, p. 29) created the triode out of the diode by inserting a curved mesh grid, whose voltage could be varied, between the filament and the plate. output . . . can be the indefinite integral of any signal Long discussion mostly removed to the Discussion page on Jan. 23, 2008 This is in fact an elegant mathematical, or, better, 'pataphysical, expression of the phenomenon of looking at a single photograph and imagining it as part of a movie (which is after all just a sequence of still photographs), or of many possible movies--the movie is the integral of the photograph. This is techno-mathematical nonsense of a very particular kind: an example of 'Pataphysics [5], which its originator, the absurdist novelist and playwright Alfred Jarry [6] (1873-1907) defined as "The science of imaginary solutions". His fictional creation Dr. Faustroll explains that 'Pataphysics deals with "the laws which govern exceptions and will explain the universe supplementary to this one". One can imagine any number of possible "movies" or world-lines, for the subject of a photograph, any number of alternate histories and supplementary universes. paranoia querelans Misspelling of querulans. This page describes the disorder. They've got the theory now to find the analogies but Roswell is paranoid - querelans they accumulate stuff not knowing what to do with it but sure enough - they find something - photo of downtown LA - Merle rocked the carbons - took from the cabinet a brilliant red crystal - Lorandite - from Macedonia before the Balkan wars - pure thallium arsenosulphide - Merle [...] took from a wall safe a brilliant red crystal, brought it over to a platinoid housing and carefully slid it into place. "Lorandite — brought out of Macedonia before the Balkan Wars, pure thallium arsenosulfide, purer quality than you can find anymore." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lorandite * Lorandite is a thallium arsenic sulfosalt with formula: TlAsS2. It was first discovered at Alshar, Republic of Macedonia in 1894 and named after Loránd Eötvös, physicist at the University of Budapest. The lorandite is thought to have the potential to unravel the so- called "neutrino puzzle." By serving as a geochemical detector of the neuron, the lorandite could validate or disprove the theory of the standard solar system, say physicists. In simple terms—it would let us understand the work of the Sun. http://tw.strahlen.org/fotoatlas1/lorandite_foto.html * Thallium - a form of poison http://drnickonline.blogspot.com/2006/11/thallium-poisoning- everything-russian.html * Iron arsenosulfide is the most common ore of arsenic. It is found in Mexico (Mapimí), Sweden (Tunaberg) and the U.S. (Montana). According to Risto Karajkov writing in "World Press": ** Moving pictures: "They bring the still life to action - then many others of American lives unquestionably in motion - effect was of a small city in frames He was on a mission to set free the images not just the photographs but also of all that came his way - prince who with his kiss releases that Sleeping Beauty into wakefulness. ******************** Page 1038 "old gaffers" A gaffer in the motion picture industry is the head of the electrical department, responsible for the execution (and sometimes the design) of the lighting plan for a production. In British English the term gaffer is long established as meaning an old man, or the foreman of a squad of workmen. (In U.S. English, similarly, "Pappy" is a nickname for the leader of such a group—like Pappy Hod in V..) The term was also used to describe men who adjusted lighting in English theatre and men who tended street lamps, after the "gaff" they used, a pole with a hook on its end [7]. One seller of gaffer's tape (used in theater and film) says the "gaff" story is incorrect, but it isn't clear this is correct, because long poles called "hi-tech focusing aids" are definitely still used in theater. The "old man" meaning comes from a dialectal pronunciation of "grandfather." Roswell and Merle are gaffers (old men / electricians/old men). ****** Bekah and over to Mark - From kelber at mindspring.com Tue Jul 15 21:37:17 2008 From: kelber at mindspring.com (kelber at mindspring.com) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2008 22:37:17 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Repost: The Big One Message-ID: <19017799.1216175837995.JavaMail.root@elwamui-huard.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Bekah, this is an excellent discussion of why well-rounded characters are beside the point in Pynchon's books. I'd still argue, though, that there are too many main characters whose roles overlap in ATD. In The Brothers Karamazov, for example, the three brothers symbolize body, mind, and spirit and are markedly different in personality. Reef, Frank and Kit have some minor differences of temperament and occupation and differ in their travels, but ultimately they're not very different. It doesn't matter whether they're flat or round, it does matter that they're too similar. Laura -----Original Message----- >From: Bekah >Sent: Jul 15, 2008 6:25 PM >To: P-list >Subject: Re: Repost: The Big One > >First, I love PYnchon and I love Oedpia so there is no criticism in >the following post! > > To use flat or rounded characters has no effect on the value of a >work unless the author used flat ones where they should have been >rounded because the themes are of personal change or something but >you never do get to "know" the main character - disgusting books. I >speak of "knowing" a character in terms of intimate knowing - not >who, what, where, when - but the whys and wherefores of her. > > Pynchon is perfect in his use of flattish characters. We don't >"know" them and "care" about them. We don't cry when they cry or >rejoice at their success. We're not scared for them. They're >always "characters in novel." We can describe these characters in a >sentence or two (we might need pages to tell what they do). > >Rounded characters have a large emotional aspect, their >personalities are developed as being unique and changeable. We feel >like we "know" them as individual people and care about them and what >happens to them. It takes pages to describe them and their ways >but maybe only a page or two to tell what they actually do in the novel. > >(Btw, these terms are from E.M. Forster back in the 1920s or >something and not meant for post-mod lit. Even he did not disparage >flat characters - it's just an alternative an author makes about >where the emphasis of a book will be. He said the characters of >Dickens were somewhat flat. > >I think that only Tolstoy in War & Peace was able to deal >successfully and so deeply with "big issues" and themes (history - >fate) while developing fully developed and rounded characters as >well. The careful reader "knows" Pierre and Natasha and shoot, >even Napoleon. If I were to describe Pierre I could tell me about >him as a person. If I described Oedipa I would basically tell you >her demographics and put far more importance on her detection and >what she did. I'm not going to say that Pynchon is the Tolstoy of >the 20th / 21st century. We won't have one like him again. > > >I think whether or not you see Oedipa as a "flattish" or "roundish" >character is in comparison to what else you've read. If you've been >reading a lot of pomo or sci-fi or detective novels she's as rounded >as most. If you've been reading Middlemarch she is totally flat - >like many post-modern characters to a person reading 19th century >lit. The flat/round thing is a "range," not a black/white deal and >it's relative to other characters and subjective - in the reader's >response (to an extent). > > >Oedipa starts out from Kinneret-Among-The-Pines as a typical >"Tupperware" housewife with a rather boring but hipster type >husband. This id announcing that she is a middle-class, married >and moderately young and hip woman. So far I take Oedipa to be a >"type" character and therefore "flattish." I don't really know >"her." I know hundreds like her. That's the point - she is >"everywoman." Oedipa's personality and character have to take >backstage for the plot to get about its business developing the >themes. She has a personality and a character but so does a >detective in a crime novel - She's not the point of the book so >Pynchon doesn't w.a.s.t.e. a lot of words in developing her as a >unique and interesting character. Her development is not a part >of the plot or themes. The themes which Pynchon explores, using >Oedipa, as a vehicle, are paranoia, conspiracy, reality vs >fiction, etc. In MY reading of this book, she's never >emotionally fleshed out, she springs forth as fully developed as >she's going to get in this book and her character doesn't really >change much (find redemption). > >The text deals with her intellectual processes as she works from >scene to scene trying to make sense of and follow the threads of >Pierce Invararity's will. The theme has nothing to do with a change >in Oedipa (although we can probably assume she does) - it has to do >with conspiracies and all the things she tries to track down or sees >or intuits and stuff. Hers is an intellectual challenge - like a >detective - not a moral/personal development challenge. > > > Bekah >babbling > > > > >On Jul 15, 2008, at 11:03 AM, robinlandseadel at comcast.net wrote: > >> "Ian Livingston: >> And if Oedipa is flat, I am really confused. >> >> Part of the reason CoL 49 is my favorite is that Via Oed we find >> ourselves inside the head of someone on the verge of revelation, >> with all the emotional turmoil and strangeness that goes into that >> experience of internal transformation. >> >> >> >> >> >> From: Ian Livingston >> Date: July 15, 2008 10:10:20 AM PDT >> To: David Payne , pynchon-l at waste.org >> Subject: Re: Repost: The Big One >> >> >> >> Well, >> >> Maybe I'm confused about what makes a character "round." Many >> authors, yes, offer characters from within, if you will, talking >> about their moral and intellectual struggles as if the author and >> therefore the reader were, in fact, occupying that character's >> ego. Many other authors present characters that become quite well- >> rounded without ever getting inside the character's head. >> Hemmingway comes quickly to mind. Joyce, too, on occasion, and his >> smarter sister in crime, Virginia Woolf. It seems to me that what >> makes a character more or less round is the degree of change that >> character evidences over the course of the narrative. For >> instance, how much does Cyprian change, or deepen as we get to know >> him? Frank? Vibe? Dally? Yash? Kit? etc. It seems to me some >> of these characters are more rounded than others, because we get to >> know them better and watch them change over time, deepen as >> individuals. Vibe is clearly flat, stock. He is the greed he is >> meant to portray and nothing more. >> >> The point is, moral struggle is not necessarily something we have >> to explicitly hear. We can observe it. When Yashmeen loses her >> ability to warp space and time, what do we know about her >> experience of that loss? (or gain?) When people experience moral >> turmoil it really is rather rare that they are able to formulate >> the questions, much less explicitly contemplate the issues >> involved. Why should it be otherwise with characters? After all, >> characters are the issue of human intelligence, they are born of >> the workings of an individual mind, shadows cast on the cave wall >> by the interior light of the microcosmic Sol. Is it not proper >> that they should resemble us? I have often been alienated and >> dismayed by characters who seem to know too much about themselves >> and the world, who are not a little lost in things and acting >> largely on impulse, mostly mimetically. It is something I >> especially like about Pynchon's characters that they are so often >> mute on the subject of subjective experience and, when we do see or >> hear their subjective experience, it is so often a sort of "Whoa! >> What's happening here?" Not some concise summary of the >> intellectual and moral consequences of everything a la Hesse or >> Frank Herbert, perhaps even Cormac McCarthy at times. We do not, >> for instance, hear Cyprian's cognitive struggles over his decision >> to stay at the convent, to leave his worldly lovers in favor of a >> divine lover. But we see that he changes as a result of the >> subjective turmoil. He doesn't just jump ship, he is torn and >> decides. Little as I identify with him at some levels, it is the >> way he negotiates his doubts that makes him a powerful, round >> character. >> >> But then, maybe I am mistaken about "roundness." >> >> And if Oedipa is flat, I am really confused. Or Katje. Or Pugnax, >> for that matter. >> >> On Mon, Jul 14, 2008 at 11:32 PM, David Payne >> wrote: >> >> On Mon, 14 Jul 2008 (23:44:27 -0400), Laura (kelber at mindspring.com) >> wrote: >> >> > If you're expecting an impassioned defense of TRP's ability to >> draw well-rounded characters, you won't be getting it from me. >> >> Well, no, actually, I wasn't, which is why I said it was a joke, >> satire. >> >> And that's twice I've apparently unintentionally implied something >> that I did not mean to convey. >> >> I'll try asking questions for the third time and then just shut up, >> which seems, perhaps, to be desired. >> >> Sticking with the topic at hand, don't most writers create rounded >> characters by presenting a moral dilemma and then demonstrating the >> character's inner struggle and the resulting moral evolution? >> >> Does Pynchon do this? >> >> If not, why? If so, where and why? (Some postings have already >> answered this as "yes"; specifically, both Laura and Mark pointed >> to Frank and the train crash on page 985.) >> >> Finally, does Pynchon's moral view point extend beyond the reaction >> of his characters' individual personal reactions to their >> individual dilemmas? >> >> Please take my comments a face value, b/c my son bought ice cream >> from an ice-cream truck for the first time yesterday. Boy-oh-boy >> was he ever excited to learn that people actually drive around in >> trucks full of ice cream on hot summer days, trying to unload their >> merchandise. >> >> >> _________________________________________________________________ >> Making the world a better place one message at a time. >> http://www.imtalkathon.com/?source=EML_WLH_Talkathon_BetterPlace >> > From dpayne1912 at hotmail.com Tue Jul 15 22:39:46 2008 From: dpayne1912 at hotmail.com (David Payne) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2008 03:39:46 +0000 Subject: Pondering an M&D road trip... In-Reply-To: <0A9745774F2BF6409F9544231DCC2661091C3600@vime1.rdg-home.ad.rdg.ac.uk> References: <10937403.1215958092970.JavaMail.root@elwamui-huard.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <000b01c8e4f6$c9842eb0$5c8c8c10$@com> <0A9745774F2BF6409F9544231DCC2661091C3600@vime1.rdg-home.ad.rdg.ac.uk> Message-ID: On Tue, 15 Jul 2008 (16:30:47 +0100), Guy x (g.i.s.pursey at reading.ac.uk) wrote: > I was reading M&D for the first time and as I was coming to the end [...] I read some of the book on the train and, as we > were pulling into Durham, that's where the book's action moved to. I > walked down to look at the River Wear and actually finished the book > during my stay there. If yr at all into graphic novels (I hate that term -- sounds too kinky), check out Bryan Talbot's _Alice in Sunderland_. It covers some of the same Northern English geography as M&D (including the River Wear), and, like M&D, is incredibly well-researched as well as highly entertaining. (The bibliography in _Sunderland_ includes, I am willing to bet, some books that Pynchon read as research for M&D.) Plus, it is absolutely gorgeous. The rest of this post is from Amazon, quoting reviews from elsewhere: >From Publishers Weekly Starred Review. Talbot's freewheeling, metafictional magnum opus is a map of the curious and delightful territory of its cartoonist's mind, starring himself in multiple roles. The starting point is the history of his hometown, the northeast English city of Sunderland, along with his lifelong fascination with the myths and realities behind Lewis Carroll and Alice in Wonderland—potentially dry material, but Talbot pulls out all the stops to keep it entertaining. He veers off on one fascinating tangent after another. The book encompasses dead-on parodies of EC horror comics, British boys' comics and Hergé's Tintin, walk-ons by local heroes like Sidney James, extensive analysis of a couple of William Hogarth prints, a cameo appearance by the Venerable Scott McComics-Expert and even a song-and-dance number, drawing a three-dimensional web of coincidences and connections between all. It's also a showcase for the explosive verve of Talbot's protean illustrative style, with digital collages of multiple media on almost every page: pen-and-ink drawings in a striking variety of styles, photographs, painting, computer modeling, and all manner of found images. The book's only real weakness is its scattered focus, but Talbot is a remarkable raconteur, even if what he's presenting is more a variety show than a story. (Apr.) Copyright © Reed Business Information, a division of Reed Elsevier Inc. All rights reserved. >From Booklist *Starred Review* Lewis Carroll's Alice's Adventures in Wonderland (1865) and Through the Looking Glass(1872) have had an immeasurable impact on children's literature and, indeed, the entire spectrum of popular entertainment, with Carroll's absurdist wordplay and surreal scenarios inspiring artistic visionaries from Salvador Dali to John Lennon. Of English writers, only Shakespeare is more frequently quoted. Such interesting literary tidbits as those abound in Talbot's lavishly illustrated graphic "entertainment" tracing the historical and cultural influences behind Carroll's masterpieces. The launching pad for Talbot's alternately fanciful and didactic exposition is the Empire Theatre in Sunderland, a former shipping port in northeastern England and a favorite Carroll haunt. Talbot's chosen stage manager-narrator is his own illustrated doppelganger, who takes the Empire stage for an audience of one and proceeds on a breathtaking tour through Sunderland's colorful history. Along with insights into famous battles, bridges, and ghost-infested castles, Talbot provides updates to Carroll's biography via recent information concerning his controversial relationship to the "real" Alice, Alice Liddell (1852-1934). Talbot's talented team of collaborating illustrators weaves a rich tapestry of artistic styles, ranging from superlative pen-and-ink drawing to colorized faux photography. They make a beautiful coffee-table volume of what may come to stand with Martin Gardner's The Annotated Alice(1960; rev. ed., 1990) as an indispensable trove of Wonderland lore. Carl Hays Copyright © American Library Association. All rights reserved _________________________________________________________________ It’s a talkathon – but it’s not just talk. http://www.imtalkathon.com/?source=EML_WLH_Talkathon_JustTalk From isread at btinternet.com Wed Jul 16 00:31:43 2008 From: isread at btinternet.com (Paul Nightingale) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2008 06:31:43 +0100 Subject: Atdtda28: Pilgrim, 785-786 Message-ID: <001501c8e705$3d7bb7b0$b8732710$@com> Again the section begins by asking the reader to play catch-up: "Kit had almost gotten used ..." etc. And so to: "... one day he and Prance came across a band of reindeer herders ..." etc. And then the fast-forward: "... as Kit explained it later". At first we are told that Kit rides Kirghiz horses; this detail is immediately revised to include the similar but different "shaggier pony-size cousins, his feet all bur dragging along the ground". Down the page: "... the narrow track of his life branching now and then into unsuspected side trails". So the imprecision of the narrative moment, the 'now', is supplemented by the range of threads that Kit's life is "branching" into (until, finally, he will need the talking reindeer "to pilot him through confusions in the terrain", 786). For once Prance responds without scepticism or argument ("Of course ...", 785), taking over with the talking reindeer to sideline Kit. Prance is thus associated with "[f]olk out here" who talk to reindeer "all the time": back on 783 he was concerned that everyone thought him a Japanese spy. The reindeer has not spoken to Kit, of course, only appearing to act anthropomorphically; and Kit's judgement ("It didn't seem that odd ...", 785) is qualified by "... were said to do it ...", a reference less to the 'fact' of talking reindeer than to the power of belief. Again, over the page on 786, "herders . believ[e] ..." etc. The result of all this is that Kit enjoys another makeover, transformed into "a pilgrim who [needs] Ssagan to pilot him through confusions in the terrain". So he begins with a pony that is not a Kirghiz, "his feet all but dragging along the ground" (785); and finishes with a reindeer that might be "the reincarnation of a great Buriat teacher". This final development comes to us courtesy of Prance, responsible for interpreting/translating whatever has been going on among the herders. From lorentzen at hotmail.de Wed Jul 16 05:49:44 2008 From: lorentzen at hotmail.de (Kai Frederik Lorentzen) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2008 12:49:44 +0200 Subject: Repost: The Big One In-Reply-To: <29710890.1216131261183.JavaMail.root@elwamui-huard.atl.sa.earthlink.net> References: <29710890.1216131261183.JavaMail.root@elwamui-huard.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: "It is simply wrong to begin with a theme, symbol or other abstract unifying agent , and then try to force characters and events to conform to it." --- Thomas Pynchon: Slow Learner --- kfl > From: kelber at mindspring.com > I've never been bothered by the lack of "roundedness" of TRP's characters until ATD. As Bekah said, > he's more interested in exploring themes, and I don't have a problem with that. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mryc2903 at yahoo.fr Wed Jul 16 06:42:20 2008 From: mryc2903 at yahoo.fr (Michel Ryckx) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2008 11:42:20 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Pynchon article in Cycnos Message-ID: <286830.26454.qm@web27606.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Fairly recent article on Nabokov and Pynchon in French journal Cycnos (University of Nice, Sofia Antipolis: Susan Elizabeth Sweeney; "The V-Shaped Paradigm: Nabokov and Pynchon", Cycnos, 12.2 (put on line 25.06.2008). http://revel.unice.fr/cycnos/document.html?id=1475 Michel. _____________________________________________________________________________ Envoyez avec Yahoo! Mail. Une boite mail plus intelligente http://mail.yahoo.fr From g.i.s.pursey at reading.ac.uk Wed Jul 16 07:20:34 2008 From: g.i.s.pursey at reading.ac.uk (Guy Ian Scott Pursey) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2008 13:20:34 +0100 Subject: Pondering an M&D road trip... In-Reply-To: <00a301c8e694$92146ea0$b63d4be0$@com> References: <10937403.1215958092970.JavaMail.root@elwamui-huard.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <000b01c8e4f6$c9842eb0$5c8c8c10$@com> <0A9745774F2BF6409F9544231DCC2661091C3600@vime1.rdg-home.ad.rdg.ac.uk> <00a301c8e694$92146ea0$b63d4be0$@com> Message-ID: <0A9745774F2BF6409F9544231DCC2661091FF150@vime1.rdg-home.ad.rdg.ac.uk> I think that might be one of the many things that turned me on to Pynchon when I started - the humour seemed to be somehow... British? I don't that I can explain what a British sense of humour is or how it contrasts with American humour - perhaps it's more surreal and wildly sarcastic whereas American humour seems to be by contrast both more deadpan and more sincere...? Err... Anyway! Veering massively off-topic a-and now approaching controversial territory. What was it the Captain Zhang said about drawing lines and Bad History? Guy -----Original Message----- From: owner-pynchon-l at waste.org [mailto:owner-pynchon-l at waste.org] On Behalf Of Henry Sent: 15 July 2008 17:05 To: 'Pynchon Liste' Subject: RE: Pondering an M&D road trip... Guy, your post kicked me in the keister! I'm now thinking about Anglophilia in Pynch-Lit (Maybe I'll go back to school some day and actually write a paper! Nah. Doubt it.). Slothrop et al in LONDON! The Candy Drill! A-and Anglophile Japanese fellow from Hiroshima on the boat in GR! TWITS! Mason and Dixon! The list goes on! Why, P's books are almost as much of Brit as Yank! Henry Mu Information, Media, and Technology Consultant http://my.barackobama.com/page/community/blog/henrymu -----Original Message----- Could we snip things a little for the sake of indexing and our lower-speed Internet comrades? From markekohut at yahoo.com Wed Jul 16 07:41:30 2008 From: markekohut at yahoo.com (Mark Kohut) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2008 05:41:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Pondering an M&D road trip... In-Reply-To: <0A9745774F2BF6409F9544231DCC2661091FF150@vime1.rdg-home.ad.rdg.ac.uk> Message-ID: <887594.86908.qm@web38406.mail.mud.yahoo.com> yes, P seems to have more of that old-fashioned 'wit'...that might be more British; that is surely of the past..say, the Augustan age? A-and, T.S. Eliot wrote of the 'metaphysical wit' of poets such as Donne...yoking together wildly disparate concepts....(for Donne, one example, the body of his beloved with---blasphemy coming!---the Beatific Vision)............. Pynchon's over-the-top 'yokings' are of of the same kind, yes? (I mean Byron the Bulb?....the Giant Adenoid....The balloon boys and the World's Fair...........the Q-weapon and modernity..........Ferris wheels and mandalas, and on and on) --- On Wed, 7/16/08, Guy Ian Scott Pursey wrote: > From: Guy Ian Scott Pursey > Subject: RE: Pondering an M&D road trip... > To: "Pynchon Liste" > Date: Wednesday, July 16, 2008, 8:20 AM > I think that might be one of the many things that turned me > on to > Pynchon when I started - the humour seemed to be somehow... > British? I > don't that I can explain what a British sense of humour > is or how it > contrasts with American humour - perhaps it's more > surreal and wildly > sarcastic whereas American humour seems to be by contrast > both more > deadpan and more sincere...? > > Err... Anyway! Veering massively off-topic a-and now > approaching > controversial territory. What was it the Captain Zhang said > about > drawing lines and Bad History? > > Guy > > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-pynchon-l at waste.org > [mailto:owner-pynchon-l at waste.org] On > Behalf Of Henry > Sent: 15 July 2008 17:05 > To: 'Pynchon Liste' > Subject: RE: Pondering an M&D road trip... > > Guy, your post kicked me in the keister! I'm now > thinking about > Anglophilia > in Pynch-Lit (Maybe I'll go back to school some day and > actually write a > paper! Nah. Doubt it.). > > Slothrop et al in LONDON! The Candy Drill! A-and > Anglophile Japanese > fellow from Hiroshima on the boat in GR! TWITS! Mason and > Dixon! The > list > goes on! Why, P's books are almost as much of Brit as > Yank! > > Henry Mu > Information, Media, and Technology Consultant > > http://my.barackobama.com/page/community/blog/henrymu > > -----Original Message----- > Could we snip things a little for the sake of indexing and > our > lower-speed > Internet comrades? From bekker2 at mac.com Wed Jul 16 10:49:22 2008 From: bekker2 at mac.com (Bekah) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2008 08:49:22 -0700 Subject: Repost: The Big One In-Reply-To: <19017799.1216175837995.JavaMail.root@elwamui-huard.atl.sa.earthlink.net> References: <19017799.1216175837995.JavaMail.root@elwamui-huard.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: I think you have a good point there about the similarity of Kit, Reef and Frank. Really it seems the Traverse boys are almost interchangeable. But in order for this one seriously Western mentality to be all over the world at the same time, there has to be some bi-furcation (that can be in threes can't it?) from the source - Webb. (a feeble attempt in defense of OBA.) Bekah On Jul 15, 2008, at 7:37 PM, kelber at mindspring.com wrote: > Bekah, this is an excellent discussion of why well-rounded > characters are beside the point in Pynchon's books. I'd still > argue, though, that there are too many main characters whose roles > overlap in ATD. In The Brothers Karamazov, for example, the three > brothers symbolize body, mind, and spirit and are markedly > different in personality. Reef, Frank and Kit have some minor > differences of temperament and occupation and differ in their > travels, but ultimately they're not very different. It doesn't > matter whether they're flat or round, it does matter that they're > too similar. > > Laura > > -----Original Message----- >> From: Bekah >> Sent: Jul 15, 2008 6:25 PM >> To: P-list >> Subject: Re: Repost: The Big One >> >> First, I love PYnchon and I love Oedpia so there is no criticism in >> the following post! >> >> To use flat or rounded characters has no effect on the value of a >> work unless the author used flat ones where they should have been >> rounded because the themes are of personal change or something but >> you never do get to "know" the main character - disgusting books. I >> speak of "knowing" a character in terms of intimate knowing - not >> who, what, where, when - but the whys and wherefores of her. >> >> Pynchon is perfect in his use of flattish characters. We don't >> "know" them and "care" about them. We don't cry when they cry or >> rejoice at their success. We're not scared for them. They're >> always "characters in novel." We can describe these characters in a >> sentence or two (we might need pages to tell what they do). >> >> Rounded characters have a large emotional aspect, their >> personalities are developed as being unique and changeable. We feel >> like we "know" them as individual people and care about them and what >> happens to them. It takes pages to describe them and their ways >> but maybe only a page or two to tell what they actually do in the >> novel. >> >> (Btw, these terms are from E.M. Forster back in the 1920s or >> something and not meant for post-mod lit. Even he did not disparage >> flat characters - it's just an alternative an author makes about >> where the emphasis of a book will be. He said the characters of >> Dickens were somewhat flat. >> >> I think that only Tolstoy in War & Peace was able to deal >> successfully and so deeply with "big issues" and themes (history - >> fate) while developing fully developed and rounded characters as >> well. The careful reader "knows" Pierre and Natasha and shoot, >> even Napoleon. If I were to describe Pierre I could tell me about >> him as a person. If I described Oedipa I would basically tell you >> her demographics and put far more importance on her detection and >> what she did. I'm not going to say that Pynchon is the Tolstoy of >> the 20th / 21st century. We won't have one like him again. >> >> >> I think whether or not you see Oedipa as a "flattish" or "roundish" >> character is in comparison to what else you've read. If you've been >> reading a lot of pomo or sci-fi or detective novels she's as rounded >> as most. If you've been reading Middlemarch she is totally flat - >> like many post-modern characters to a person reading 19th century >> lit. The flat/round thing is a "range," not a black/white deal and >> it's relative to other characters and subjective - in the reader's >> response (to an extent). >> >> >> Oedipa starts out from Kinneret-Among-The-Pines as a typical >> "Tupperware" housewife with a rather boring but hipster type >> husband. This id announcing that she is a middle-class, married >> and moderately young and hip woman. So far I take Oedipa to be a >> "type" character and therefore "flattish." I don't really know >> "her." I know hundreds like her. That's the point - she is >> "everywoman." Oedipa's personality and character have to take >> backstage for the plot to get about its business developing the >> themes. She has a personality and a character but so does a >> detective in a crime novel - She's not the point of the book so >> Pynchon doesn't w.a.s.t.e. a lot of words in developing her as a >> unique and interesting character. Her development is not a part >> of the plot or themes. The themes which Pynchon explores, using >> Oedipa, as a vehicle, are paranoia, conspiracy, reality vs >> fiction, etc. In MY reading of this book, she's never >> emotionally fleshed out, she springs forth as fully developed as >> she's going to get in this book and her character doesn't really >> change much (find redemption). >> >> The text deals with her intellectual processes as she works from >> scene to scene trying to make sense of and follow the threads of >> Pierce Invararity's will. The theme has nothing to do with a change >> in Oedipa (although we can probably assume she does) - it has to do >> with conspiracies and all the things she tries to track down or sees >> or intuits and stuff. Hers is an intellectual challenge - like a >> detective - not a moral/personal development challenge. >> >> >> Bekah >> babbling >> >> >> >> >> On Jul 15, 2008, at 11:03 AM, robinlandseadel at comcast.net wrote: >> >>> "Ian Livingston: >>> And if Oedipa is flat, I am really confused. >>> >>> Part of the reason CoL 49 is my favorite is that Via Oed we find >>> ourselves inside the head of someone on the verge of revelation, >>> with all the emotional turmoil and strangeness that goes into that >>> experience of internal transformation. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> From: Ian Livingston >>> Date: July 15, 2008 10:10:20 AM PDT >>> To: David Payne , pynchon-l at waste.org >>> Subject: Re: Repost: The Big One >>> >>> >>> >>> Well, >>> >>> Maybe I'm confused about what makes a character "round." Many >>> authors, yes, offer characters from within, if you will, talking >>> about their moral and intellectual struggles as if the author and >>> therefore the reader were, in fact, occupying that character's >>> ego. Many other authors present characters that become quite well- >>> rounded without ever getting inside the character's head. >>> Hemmingway comes quickly to mind. Joyce, too, on occasion, and his >>> smarter sister in crime, Virginia Woolf. It seems to me that what >>> makes a character more or less round is the degree of change that >>> character evidences over the course of the narrative. For >>> instance, how much does Cyprian change, or deepen as we get to know >>> him? Frank? Vibe? Dally? Yash? Kit? etc. It seems to me some >>> of these characters are more rounded than others, because we get to >>> know them better and watch them change over time, deepen as >>> individuals. Vibe is clearly flat, stock. He is the greed he is >>> meant to portray and nothing more. >>> >>> The point is, moral struggle is not necessarily something we have >>> to explicitly hear. We can observe it. When Yashmeen loses her >>> ability to warp space and time, what do we know about her >>> experience of that loss? (or gain?) When people experience moral >>> turmoil it really is rather rare that they are able to formulate >>> the questions, much less explicitly contemplate the issues >>> involved. Why should it be otherwise with characters? After all, >>> characters are the issue of human intelligence, they are born of >>> the workings of an individual mind, shadows cast on the cave wall >>> by the interior light of the microcosmic Sol. Is it not proper >>> that they should resemble us? I have often been alienated and >>> dismayed by characters who seem to know too much about themselves >>> and the world, who are not a little lost in things and acting >>> largely on impulse, mostly mimetically. It is something I >>> especially like about Pynchon's characters that they are so often >>> mute on the subject of subjective experience and, when we do see or >>> hear their subjective experience, it is so often a sort of "Whoa! >>> What's happening here?" Not some concise summary of the >>> intellectual and moral consequences of everything a la Hesse or >>> Frank Herbert, perhaps even Cormac McCarthy at times. We do not, >>> for instance, hear Cyprian's cognitive struggles over his decision >>> to stay at the convent, to leave his worldly lovers in favor of a >>> divine lover. But we see that he changes as a result of the >>> subjective turmoil. He doesn't just jump ship, he is torn and >>> decides. Little as I identify with him at some levels, it is the >>> way he negotiates his doubts that makes him a powerful, round >>> character. >>> >>> But then, maybe I am mistaken about "roundness." >>> >>> And if Oedipa is flat, I am really confused. Or Katje. Or Pugnax, >>> for that matter. >>> >>> On Mon, Jul 14, 2008 at 11:32 PM, David Payne >>> wrote: >>> >>> On Mon, 14 Jul 2008 (23:44:27 -0400), Laura (kelber at mindspring.com) >>> wrote: >>> >>>> If you're expecting an impassioned defense of TRP's ability to >>> draw well-rounded characters, you won't be getting it from me. >>> >>> Well, no, actually, I wasn't, which is why I said it was a joke, >>> satire. >>> >>> And that's twice I've apparently unintentionally implied something >>> that I did not mean to convey. >>> >>> I'll try asking questions for the third time and then just shut up, >>> which seems, perhaps, to be desired. >>> >>> Sticking with the topic at hand, don't most writers create rounded >>> characters by presenting a moral dilemma and then demonstrating the >>> character's inner struggle and the resulting moral evolution? >>> >>> Does Pynchon do this? >>> >>> If not, why? If so, where and why? (Some postings have already >>> answered this as "yes"; specifically, both Laura and Mark pointed >>> to Frank and the train crash on page 985.) >>> >>> Finally, does Pynchon's moral view point extend beyond the reaction >>> of his characters' individual personal reactions to their >>> individual dilemmas? >>> >>> Please take my comments a face value, b/c my son bought ice cream >>> from an ice-cream truck for the first time yesterday. Boy-oh-boy >>> was he ever excited to learn that people actually drive around in >>> trucks full of ice cream on hot summer days, trying to unload their >>> merchandise. >>> >>> >>> _________________________________________________________________ >>> Making the world a better place one message at a time. >>> http://www.imtalkathon.com/?source=EML_WLH_Talkathon_BetterPlace >>> >> > From paul.mackin at verizon.net Wed Jul 16 12:22:02 2008 From: paul.mackin at verizon.net (Paul Mackin) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2008 13:22:02 -0400 Subject: Repost: The Big One In-Reply-To: <700775.83210.qm@web38408.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <700775.83210.qm@web38408.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <487E2E3A.50105@verizon.net> Mark Kohut wrote: > A few obs. > > I have often thought that the non-rounded characters in much of Pynchon's work is because we real human beings aren't too "round" in our current degraded world,in Pynchon's worledview. > You may be on to something, Mark. I remember back about 40 years ago being told that we were ONE-dimensional men. In Pynchon's world, however, we are surely more like hyper-paranoid men. What kind of distinctive character trait would required for that? Guess I'm talking about GR--don't know what the hell happened after that. Perhaps characters in the True Land of Paranoia don't need much character--we can pretty much forget shapes. Getting buffeted around by all those interconnecting forces (everything connects) doesn't leave much room for individual discretion. I have long suspected that reading too much Pynchon can make people act kind of peculiarly. For example, some of us adopt the phrase "everything connects" as sort of a motto. That gives me pause. A little tiny pause anyway. What if the satirical origins get lost? It might be wise to take a lesson from the case of the cover of this issue of The New Yorker. Some folks may not realize they aren't in Kansas anymore. (not too many I hope) But getting back to "everything connects," yes a lot of things ARE connected, and we should we conscious of this, but there are still a lot of other things that are not. To believe that everything is connected can be the mark of a psychotic. (a real one) A well-meaning sane person who thinks too inclusively here runs the danger of not picking up on the connections that really exist. I duuno where this is going . . . . except I did want to let Mark know I liked his idea. P. From kelber at mindspring.com Wed Jul 16 12:38:43 2008 From: kelber at mindspring.com (kelber at mindspring.com) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2008 13:38:43 -0400 (GMT-04:00) Subject: Repost: The Big One Message-ID: <22973169.1216229923621.JavaMail.root@mswamui-blood.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Face it, with few exceptions, we're all boring-assed people leading stultifyingly dreary lives (I'm guiltier here than most), with nary a well-developed character, plot line or theme in sight. That's why we turn to fiction ... Laura -----Original Message----- >From: Paul Mackin >Sent: Jul 16, 2008 1:22 PM >To: pynchon-l at waste.org >Subject: Re: Repost: The Big One > >Mark Kohut wrote: >> A few obs. >> >> I have often thought that the non-rounded characters in much of Pynchon's work is because we real human beings aren't too "round" in our current degraded world,in Pynchon's worledview. >> >You may be on to something, Mark. > >I remember back about 40 years ago being told that we were >ONE-dimensional men. > >In Pynchon's world, however, we are surely more like hyper-paranoid men. > >What kind of distinctive character trait would required for that? > >Guess I'm talking about GR--don't know what the hell happened after that. > >Perhaps characters in the True Land of Paranoia don't need much >character--we can pretty much forget shapes. > >Getting buffeted around by all those interconnecting forces (everything >connects) doesn't leave much room for individual discretion. > >I have long suspected that reading too much Pynchon can make people act >kind of peculiarly. > >For example, some of us adopt the phrase "everything connects" as sort >of a motto. > >That gives me pause. A little tiny pause anyway. > >What if the satirical origins get lost? > >It might be wise to take a lesson from the case of the cover of this >issue of The New Yorker. > >Some folks may not realize they aren't in Kansas anymore. (not too many >I hope) > >But getting back to "everything connects," yes a lot of things ARE >connected, and we should we conscious of this, but there are still a >lot of other things that are not. > >To believe that everything is connected can be the mark of a psychotic. >(a real one) > >A well-meaning sane person who thinks too inclusively here runs the >danger of not picking up on the connections that really exist. > >I duuno where this is going . . . . except I did want to let Mark know >I liked his idea. > >P. > > > > > > > > From scuffling at gmail.com Wed Jul 16 12:57:55 2008 From: scuffling at gmail.com (Henry) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2008 13:57:55 -0400 Subject: Repost: The Big One In-Reply-To: <22973169.1216229923621.JavaMail.root@mswamui-blood.atl.sa.earthlink.net> References: <22973169.1216229923621.JavaMail.root@mswamui-blood.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <007801c8e76d$7a164330$6e42c990$@com> I turn to fiction because of the hubris of non-fiction's posing as fact when, in fact, fact is in the arty-facts. Most of us (usual caveat) are "boring-assed people." However, we are rounded by our very/actual existence, (if not well-rounded). HENRY MU Information, Media, and Technology Consultant http://my.barackobama.com/page/community/blog/henrymu -----Original Message----- From: owner-pynchon-l at waste.org [mailto:owner-pynchon-l at waste.org] On Behalf Of kelber at mindspring.com Sent: Wednesday, July 16, 2008 1:39 PM To: pynchon-l at waste.org Subject: Re: Repost: The Big One Face it, with few exceptions, we're all boring-assed people leading stultifyingly dreary lives (I'm guiltier here than most), with nary a well-developed character, plot line or theme in sight. That's why we turn to fiction ... Laura From markekohut at yahoo.com Wed Jul 16 21:24:12 2008 From: markekohut at yahoo.com (Mark Kohut) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2008 19:24:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Repost: The Big One In-Reply-To: <487E2E3A.50105@verizon.net> Message-ID: <976932.43079.qm@web38403.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Thanks, Paul. I do think I know, worked with some people every day for years, and they were fragments of people, just as are some in GR... And in Pynchon's world of doubled down meanings, think of the upside of 'everything connects"....a wholeness beyond fragmentation.... mark --- On Wed, 7/16/08, Paul Mackin wrote: > From: Paul Mackin > Subject: Re: Repost: The Big One > To: pynchon-l at waste.org > Date: Wednesday, July 16, 2008, 1:22 PM > Mark Kohut wrote: > > A few obs. > > > > I have often thought that the non-rounded characters > in much of Pynchon's work is because we real human > beings aren't too "round" in our current > degraded world,in Pynchon's worledview. > > > You may be on to something, Mark. > > I remember back about 40 years ago being told that we were > ONE-dimensional men. > > In Pynchon's world, however, we are surely more like > hyper-paranoid men. > > What kind of distinctive character trait would required for > that? > > Guess I'm talking about GR--don't know what the > hell happened after that. > > Perhaps characters in the True Land of Paranoia don't > need much > character--we can pretty much forget shapes. > > Getting buffeted around by all those interconnecting forces > (everything > connects) doesn't leave much room for individual > discretion. > > I have long suspected that reading too much Pynchon can > make people act > kind of peculiarly. > > For example, some of us adopt the phrase "everything > connects" as sort > of a motto. > > That gives me pause. A little tiny pause anyway. > > What if the satirical origins get lost? > > It might be wise to take a lesson from the case of the > cover of this > issue of The New Yorker. > > Some folks may not realize they aren't in Kansas > anymore. (not too many > I hope) > > But getting back to "everything connects," yes a > lot of things ARE > connected, and we should we conscious of this, but there > are still a > lot of other things that are not. > > To believe that everything is connected can be the mark of > a psychotic. > (a real one) > > A well-meaning sane person who thinks too inclusively here > runs the > danger of not picking up on the connections that really > exist. > > I duuno where this is going . . . . except I did want to > let Mark know > I liked his idea. > > P. From robinlandseadel at comcast.net Thu Jul 17 09:32:21 2008 From: robinlandseadel at comcast.net (robinlandseadel at comcast.net) Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2008 14:32:21 +0000 Subject: ATDTDA (38)Pink Tabs, cover [again] Message-ID: <071720081432.2670.487F57F500056F5B00000A6E2216554886040A0B0E0A9C0B020E0402070D019D@comcast.net> Some mo' crazy, crazy, crazy talk. Ok, first off: Calcite & stamps. Concerning the appearance of the cover, how would you get that effect using calcite? There's some really nice examples at the Unicorn, and I've been looking at them quite a bit. I'll try it sometime to confirm it, but I'd guess you could get that "look" by drawing on the calcite with a marker. Or "stamping" it. In any case, there are three type faces on the cover. The topmost layer is the sort of san-serif font that you're reading right now. Not identical, but it's modern style, the obvious product of an age seeking to be streamlined and efficient. The two fonts behind seem to mark earlier historical layers, ghosts of the past---Henry James, and Dickens, & Proust viewed from the present, the "Now". Notice how the stamp for "The Tibetan Chamber of Commerce" is only the topmost layer---no back reflections, no ghosts, only the "Now", like Shambhala. Note as well that we are firmly in "Cinderella" territory with the stamp: A Cinderella stamp is any non-postage stamp. The oft-neglected stepchild of the postage stamp, a Cinderella may look like a stamp, but it won't carry the mail. The category includes locals, labels, tax stamps, fiscals, poster stamps, charity seals, forgeries, fantasies, phantoms, revenues, etc. Some are more elaborately designed than the postage stamps they imitate. The hard-core philatelist scorns any stamp that didn't carry the mail, but others find these philatelic by-ways fascinating and rewarding. Philatelic Exhibition Seals are a popular sideline among stamp collectors. The heyday for Cinderellas in the U.S. was the 1920's and 1930's, when many beautifully designed engraved examples were produced. http://alphabetilately.com/C.html http://tinyurl.com/66onup The stamp is the sort of slap you in the face insult of a stamp that Gengis Cohen was raving about in The Crying of Lot 49: "Normally this issue, and the others, are unwater-marked," Cohen said, "and in view of other details the hatching, number of perforations, way the paper has agedit's obviously a counterfeit. Not just an error." "Then it isn't worth anything." Cohen smiled, blew his nose. "You'd be amazed how much you can sell an honest forgery for. Some collectors specialize in them. The question is, who did these? They're atrocious." He flipped the stamp over and with the tip of the tweezers showed her. The picture had a Pony Express rider galloping out of a western fort. From shrubbery over on the right-hand side and possibly in the direction the rider would be heading, protruded a single, painstakingly engraved, black feather. "Why put in a deliberate mistake?" he asked, ignoring---if he saw it---the look on her face. "I've come up so far with eight in all. Each one has an error like this, laboriously worked into the design, like a taunt. There's even a transposition---U. S. Potsage, of all things." And having a "Tibetan Chamber of Commerce" stamp---well, let's just wait till we're back with Kit and Lord Overlunch to suss that one out. http://www.tibetancc.org/ The stamp on the topmost layer of the cover is in the old style of stamps made within close memory of the Kirghiz Light. So it is not only a forgery, it is a forgery in the spirit of the W.A.S.T.E. postal syste. Of course, in Against the Day we are witnessing some of the first radios, [Tesla's Invention], Madame Eskimov's really loud record player and other new and previously un-experienced forms of distortion, entropy [or Eris] stealing into the circuitry. Not to mention quite a few anarchist mail systems. Ah, but why all this obsession over a potsage stamp? Because, it's a clue---in this stew of genre fictions it's the mystery that rises to the top. From against.the.dave at gmail.com Thu Jul 17 10:56:57 2008 From: against.the.dave at gmail.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2008 10:56:57 -0500 Subject: Miami and the Siege of Chicago Message-ID: Miami and the Siege of Chicago By Norman Mailer Introduction by Frank Rich 1968. The Vietnam War was raging. President Lyndon Johnson, facing a challenge in his own Democratic Party from the maverick antiwar candidate Eugene McCarthy, announced that he would not seek a second term. In April, Martin Luther King Jr. was assassinated and riots broke out in inner cities throughout America. Bobby Kennedy was killed after winning the California primary in June. In August, Republicans met in Miami, picking the little-loved Richard Nixon as their candidate, while in September, Democrats in Chicago backed the ineffectual vice president, Hubert Humphrey. TVs across the country showed antiwar protesters filling the streets of Chicago and the police running amok, beating and arresting demonstrators and delegates alike. In Miami and the Siege of Chicago, Norman Mailer, America's most protean and provocative writer, brings a novelist's eye to bear on the events of 1968, a decisive year in modern American politics, from which today's bitterly divided country arose. http://www.nybooks.com/shop/product?usca_p=t&product_id=8033 From richard.romeo at gmail.com Thu Jul 17 13:30:41 2008 From: richard.romeo at gmail.com (rich) Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2008 14:30:41 -0400 Subject: Enzian and Tchitcherine Message-ID: <830c13f40807171130s635430aaod31f5e9297a91b74@mail.gmail.com> almost done with another re-read of GR. Can anyone adequately describe the reason Tchitcherine is obsessed with killing his half-brother Enzian? don't really understand his personal motivation here--is it just a Cain and Abel deal? rich From igrlivingston at gmail.com Thu Jul 17 13:49:26 2008 From: igrlivingston at gmail.com (Ian Livingston) Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2008 11:49:26 -0700 Subject: Repost: The Big One In-Reply-To: <976932.43079.qm@web38403.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <487E2E3A.50105@verizon.net> <976932.43079.qm@web38403.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <95cde1ee0807171149me02b630ma4ba6a3964bb60b1@mail.gmail.com> Boy, I missed out on some fun stuff while I was out in the world yesterday! You see, I fail to live one of those boring, stultified lives. I am a caretaker on a very remote ranch near Big Sur and everyday is new, filled with new challenges both emotional (I live alone, far from people) and cognitive (I read extensively and grapple with ideas from plumbing to Plato) so flattish life would not serve me well. Perhaps that is why I find round characters everywhere. To paraphrase Joyce again: we meet ourselves in the world around us. That is also a point raised in Jung: the individual is lost in systems (please watch "Network" again - all this is argued beautifully in that masterpiece), but the system exists ONLY by fact of individual participation. Systems do not have a dominant monad, a central unifying consciousness. They cannot feel, invent, think independently of the individuals within them. I see this happening in our boy's work. The individuals move through systems, alchemically shifting nuances as needed to negotiate the byways through the complex world of non-nations and retain their identities. I failed to get lost between the brothers Traverse primarily because of the elements associated with each, though each in fact requires the association of all the elements. So, yes, the idea dominates, but the individual is formed by his temperament. I agree with Bekah that there is no black and white flat v. round nature, but I would argue a more Taoist read, that apparent anarchy is simply the impure nature of worldly things. And I would argue it is the impurity that makes each character and system more or less amenable to us as readers. On Wed, Jul 16, 2008 at 7:24 PM, Mark Kohut wrote: > Thanks, Paul. > > I do think I know, worked with some people every day for years, and they > were fragments of people, just as are some in GR... > > And in Pynchon's world of doubled down meanings, think of the upside of > 'everything connects"....a wholeness beyond fragmentation.... > > mark > > > --- On Wed, 7/16/08, Paul Mackin wrote: > > > From: Paul Mackin > > Subject: Re: Repost: The Big One > > To: pynchon-l at waste.org > > Date: Wednesday, July 16, 2008, 1:22 PM > > Mark Kohut wrote: > > > A few obs. > > > > > > I have often thought that the non-rounded characters > > in much of Pynchon's work is because we real human > > beings aren't too "round" in our current > > degraded world,in Pynchon's worledview. > > > > > You may be on to something, Mark. > > > > I remember back about 40 years ago being told that we were > > ONE-dimensional men. > > > > In Pynchon's world, however, we are surely more like > > hyper-paranoid men. > > > > What kind of distinctive character trait would required for > > that? > > > > Guess I'm talking about GR--don't know what the > > hell happened after that. > > > > Perhaps characters in the True Land of Paranoia don't > > need much > > character--we can pretty much forget shapes. > > > > Getting buffeted around by all those interconnecting forces > > (everything > > connects) doesn't leave much room for individual > > discretion. > > > > I have long suspected that reading too much Pynchon can > > make people act > > kind of peculiarly. > > > > For example, some of us adopt the phrase "everything > > connects" as sort > > of a motto. > > > > That gives me pause. A little tiny pause anyway. > > > > What if the satirical origins get lost? > > > > It might be wise to take a lesson from the case of the > > cover of this > > issue of The New Yorker. > > > > Some folks may not realize they aren't in Kansas > > anymore. (not too many > > I hope) > > > > But getting back to "everything connects," yes a > > lot of things ARE > > connected, and we should we conscious of this, but there > > are still a > > lot of other things that are not. > > > > To believe that everything is connected can be the mark of > > a psychotic. > > (a real one) > > > > A well-meaning sane person who thinks too inclusively here > > runs the > > danger of not picking up on the connections that really > > exist. > > > > I duuno where this is going . . . . except I did want to > > let Mark know > > I liked his idea. > > > > P. > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From richardryannyc at yahoo.com Thu Jul 17 14:14:44 2008 From: richardryannyc at yahoo.com (Richard Ryan) Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2008 12:14:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Repost: The Big One In-Reply-To: <95cde1ee0807171149me02b630ma4ba6a3964bb60b1@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <795346.17445.qm@web50707.mail.re2.yahoo.com> I myself am like a hockey puck, simultaneously flat AND round. By the way, has there been a thread I've overlooked investigating the intriguing fact that OBA and his missus chose to give their son their two last names? I was thinking about this (I'm a person with two first names, so I'm the same, only different) and it occurred to me that it must has started with a discussion or perhaps even an argument between the two of them about whether or not his last name would be hyphenated. And then perhaps they got so exhausted and impatient with each other that they didn't have the energy to come with a first name so all that got put on the birth certificate was Jackson-Pynchon. Eventually the hyphen dropped out. Or maybe they had wanted to keep it and re-iterate their two names, in which case the young man would have been Jackson Pynchon Jackson-Pynchon. Or Jackson Pynchon Pynchon-Jackson depending on their mood. --- On Thu, 7/17/08, Ian Livingston wrote: > From: Ian Livingston > Subject: Re: Repost: The Big One > To: markekohut at yahoo.com > Cc: "Paul Mackin" , "pynchon -l" > Date: Thursday, July 17, 2008, 2:49 PM > Boy, I missed out on some fun stuff while I was out in the > world yesterday! > You see, I fail to live one of those boring, stultified > lives. I am a > caretaker on a very remote ranch near Big Sur and everyday > is new, filled > with new challenges both emotional (I live alone, far from > people) and > cognitive (I read extensively and grapple with ideas from > plumbing to Plato) > so flattish life would not serve me well. Perhaps that is > why I find round > characters everywhere. To paraphrase Joyce again: we meet > ourselves in the > world around us. That is also a point raised in Jung: > the individual is > lost in systems (please watch "Network" again - > all this is argued > beautifully in that masterpiece), but the system exists > ONLY by fact of > individual participation. Systems do not have a dominant > monad, a central > unifying consciousness. They cannot feel, invent, think > independently of > the individuals within them. I see this happening in our > boy's work. The > individuals move through systems, alchemically shifting > nuances as needed to > negotiate the byways through the complex world of > non-nations and retain > their identities. I failed to get lost between the > brothers Traverse > primarily because of the elements associated with each, > though each in fact > requires the association of all the elements. So, yes, the > idea dominates, > but the individual is formed by his temperament. I agree > with Bekah that > there is no black and white flat v. round nature, but I > would argue a more > Taoist read, that apparent anarchy is simply the impure > nature of worldly > things. And I would argue it is the impurity that makes > each character and > system more or less amenable to us as readers. > > On Wed, Jul 16, 2008 at 7:24 PM, Mark Kohut > wrote: > > > Thanks, Paul. > > > > I do think I know, worked with some people every day > for years, and they > > were fragments of people, just as are some in GR... > > > > And in Pynchon's world of doubled down meanings, > think of the upside of > > 'everything connects"....a wholeness beyond > fragmentation.... > > > > mark > > > > > > --- On Wed, 7/16/08, Paul Mackin > wrote: > > > > > From: Paul Mackin > > > Subject: Re: Repost: The Big One > > > To: pynchon-l at waste.org > > > Date: Wednesday, July 16, 2008, 1:22 PM > > > Mark Kohut wrote: > > > > A few obs. > > > > > > > > I have often thought that the non-rounded > characters > > > in much of Pynchon's work is because we real > human > > > beings aren't too "round" in our > current > > > degraded world,in Pynchon's worledview. > > > > > > > You may be on to something, Mark. > > > > > > I remember back about 40 years ago being told > that we were > > > ONE-dimensional men. > > > > > > In Pynchon's world, however, we are surely > more like > > > hyper-paranoid men. > > > > > > What kind of distinctive character trait would > required for > > > that? > > > > > > Guess I'm talking about GR--don't know > what the > > > hell happened after that. > > > > > > Perhaps characters in the True Land of Paranoia > don't > > > need much > > > character--we can pretty much forget shapes. > > > > > > Getting buffeted around by all those > interconnecting forces > > > (everything > > > connects) doesn't leave much room for > individual > > > discretion. > > > > > > I have long suspected that reading too much > Pynchon can > > > make people act > > > kind of peculiarly. > > > > > > For example, some of us adopt the phrase > "everything > > > connects" as sort > > > of a motto. > > > > > > That gives me pause. A little tiny pause anyway. > > > > > > What if the satirical origins get lost? > > > > > > It might be wise to take a lesson from the case > of the > > > cover of this > > > issue of The New Yorker. > > > > > > Some folks may not realize they aren't in > Kansas > > > anymore. (not too many > > > I hope) > > > > > > But getting back to "everything > connects," yes a > > > lot of things ARE > > > connected, and we should we conscious of this, > but there > > > are still a > > > lot of other things that are not. > > > > > > To believe that everything is connected can be > the mark of > > > a psychotic. > > > (a real one) > > > > > > A well-meaning sane person who thinks too > inclusively here > > > runs the > > > danger of not picking up on the connections that > really > > > exist. > > > > > > I duuno where this is going . . . . except I did > want to > > > let Mark know > > > I liked his idea. > > > > > > P. > > > > > > > > From against.the.dave at gmail.com Thu Jul 17 14:22:53 2008 From: against.the.dave at gmail.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2008 14:22:53 -0500 Subject: Watch The Watchmen Trailer On Friday In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: 16 July 2008 Watch The Watchmen Trailer On Friday See it first on Empire There's been a very long wait for a first look at footage from Zack Snyder's take on Watchmen, The Greatest Comic Book Of All Time™. That wait is very nearly over. The trailer for the movie, about a world where betighted crime fighting heroes have been outlawed, will be showing in US cinemas in front of The Dark Knight. But for those outside the US, or who haven't snapped up a ticket for Batman's first day, you can see the trailer exclusively online here at Empire on Friday morning from 5am GMT (or 9pm PST on Thursday). Trust us, it's worth getting up early for. http://www.empireonline.com/news/story.asp?NID=22942 Watchmen (2009) http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0409459/ http://watchmenmovie.warnerbros.com/ http://www.watchmencomicmovie.com/ Watchmen Trailer Details First reports of the trailer in front of Dark Knight include a look at Dr. Manhattan's origins and much more http://www.watchmencomicmovie.com/071508-watchmen-dark-knight-trailer.php From markekohut at yahoo.com Thu Jul 17 15:20:05 2008 From: markekohut at yahoo.com (Mark Kohut) Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2008 13:20:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Moral Nuances: Reading p. 985, AtD, in which Frank causes a train wreck Message-ID: <803005.4377.qm@web38403.mail.mud.yahoo.com> As threatened, accepting my own challenge to read this page of AtD showing what I can of OBA's 'moral vision'; his nuanced 'moral vision". "Is the baby smiling of is it just gas?"---GR first paragraph straight (although formatting lost). Then whole page in gmail document with my gloss indicated by asterisks * cued to page lines after the text. [Of course, I'll be disagreed with, Or, Why do other people exist? A: to engage in dialogue] p. 985 1-engine began to pick up speed. He swung down onto the step and was just about to jump when a peculiar thought occurred to him. Was this the "path" El Espinero had had in mind, this specific half mile of track, where suddenly the day had become extradimensional, the country shifted, was no longer the desert abstraction of a map but was speed, air rushing, the smell of 6-smoke and steam, time whose substance grew more condensed as each tick came faster and faster, all perfectly inseparable from Frank's certainty that jumping or not jumping was no longer the point, he belonged to what was happening, to the shriek from ahead as the engineer in the federal train leaned on his steam horn and Frank automatically responded with his own, 11-the two combining in a single great chord that gathered in the entire mo- ment, the brown-uniformed federales scattering from their train, the insane little engine shuddering in its frenzy, the governor valve* no longer able to regulate anything, and from someplace a bug came in out of the blind veloc- ity and went up Frank's right nostril and brought him back to the day. "Shit, " 16-he whispered, and let go, dropped, hit the ground, rolled with a desperate speed not his own, praying that he wouldn't break his leg again. --- On Thu, 7/17/08, mark.kohut at gmail.com wrote: > From: mark.kohut at gmail.com > Subject: Moral Nuances: Reading p. 985, AtD, in which Frank causes a train > To: markekohut at yahoo.com > Date: Thursday, July 17, 2008, 4:09 PM > I've shared a document with you called "Moral > Nuances: Reading p. 985, > AtD, in which Frank causes a train": > http://docs.google.com/Doc?id=ac6b6tpw9f8h_184c7qb58c9&invite=q79kn3 > > It's not an attachment -- it's stored online at > Google Docs. To open > this document, just click the link above. --- From markekohut at yahoo.com Thu Jul 17 15:37:01 2008 From: markekohut at yahoo.com (Mark Kohut) Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2008 13:37:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Enzian and Tchitcherine In-Reply-To: <830c13f40807171130s635430aaod31f5e9297a91b74@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <265534.58255.qm@web38405.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Half-self hatred? --- On Thu, 7/17/08, rich wrote: > From: rich > Subject: Enzian and Tchitcherine > To: "pynchon -l" > Date: Thursday, July 17, 2008, 2:30 PM > almost done with another re-read of GR. Can anyone > adequately > describe the reason Tchitcherine is obsessed with killing > his > half-brother Enzian? don't really understand his > personal motivation > here--is it just a Cain and Abel deal? > > rich From markekohut at yahoo.com Thu Jul 17 21:39:08 2008 From: markekohut at yahoo.com (Mark Kohut) Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2008 19:39:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Pynchon article in Cycnos. Source for CHUMS? In-Reply-To: <286830.26454.qm@web27606.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <456080.66746.qm@web38402.mail.mud.yahoo.com> So, because of this piece, thanks again Michel, I pick up a copy of The Real Life of Sebastian Knight and start it. Very early in, the narrator, a boy, talking about the sweets his brother got at bedtime---a Proust allusion, I would say---tells us he went back to turning the pages of CHUMS, "Look out for the next adventure of this rattling yarn". !!! --- On Wed, 7/16/08, Michel Ryckx wrote: > From: Michel Ryckx > Subject: Pynchon article in Cycnos > To: pynchon-l at waste.org > Date: Wednesday, July 16, 2008, 7:42 AM > Fairly recent article on Nabokov and Pynchon in French > journal Cycnos (University of Nice, Sofia Antipolis: > > Susan Elizabeth Sweeney; "The V-Shaped Paradigm: > Nabokov and Pynchon", Cycnos, 12.2 (put on line > 25.06.2008). > > http://revel.unice.fr/cycnos/document.html?id=1475 > > Michel. > > > > > > > > > > > > _____________________________________________________________________________ > > Envoyez avec Yahoo! Mail. Une boite mail plus intelligente > http://mail.yahoo.fr From scuffling at gmail.com Fri Jul 18 07:37:28 2008 From: scuffling at gmail.com (Henry) Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2008 08:37:28 -0400 Subject: Anarchy in the US References: <22973169.1216229923621.JavaMail.root@mswamui-blood.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <000801c8e8d3$0adae400$2090ac00$@com> http://www.katesharpleylibrary.net/ HENRY MU Information, Media, and Technology Consultant http://my.barackobama.com/page/community/blog/henrymu From markekohut at yahoo.com Fri Jul 18 08:25:34 2008 From: markekohut at yahoo.com (Mark Kohut) Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2008 06:25:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Enzian and Tchitcherine Message-ID: <553546.74024.qm@web38408.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Not just an offhand joke. If one of the deeper themes of GR is Why is there the self-hatred of humanity that leads to the self-destruction of War?; why is there War against our "brothers"?; Is there a Death Wish in History, in our collective psyches?.............. Then, maybe that's part of the meaning of Enzian and Tchitcherine? --- On Thu, 7/17/08, Mark Kohut wrote: > From: Mark Kohut > Subject: Re: Enzian and Tchitcherine > To: "rich" > Cc: "pynchon -l" > Date: Thursday, July 17, 2008, 4:37 PM > Half-self hatred? > > > --- On Thu, 7/17/08, rich > wrote: > > > From: rich > > Subject: Enzian and Tchitcherine > > To: "pynchon -l" > > Date: Thursday, July 17, 2008, 2:30 PM > > almost done with another re-read of GR. Can anyone > > adequately > > describe the reason Tchitcherine is obsessed with > killing > > his > > half-brother Enzian? don't really understand his > > personal motivation > > here--is it just a Cain and Abel deal? > > > > rich From against.the.dave at gmail.com Fri Jul 18 08:20:55 2008 From: against.the.dave at gmail.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2008 08:20:55 -0500 Subject: Watch The Watchmen Trailer On Friday In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Jul 17, 2008 at 2:22 PM, Dave Monroe wrote: > 16 July 2008 > Watch The Watchmen Trailer On Friday > See it first on Empire > > There's been a very long wait for a first look at footage from Zack > Snyder's take on Watchmen, The Greatest Comic Book Of All Time™. That > wait is very nearly over. > > The trailer for the movie, about a world where betighted crime > fighting heroes have been outlawed, will be showing in US cinemas in > front of The Dark Knight. But for those outside the US, or who haven't > snapped up a ticket for Batman's first day, you can see the trailer > exclusively online here at Empire on Friday morning from 5am GMT (or > 9pm PST on Thursday). Trust us, it's worth getting up early for. > > http://www.empireonline.com/news/story.asp?NID=22942 > > Watchmen (2009) > > http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0409459/ > http://watchmenmovie.warnerbros.com/ > http://www.watchmencomicmovie.com/ > > Watchmen Trailer Details > > First reports of the trailer in front of Dark Knight include a look at > Dr. Manhattan's origins and much more > > http://www.watchmencomicmovie.com/071508-watchmen-dark-knight-trailer.php http://watchmenmovie.warnerbros.com/ http://www.apple.com/trailers/wb/watchmen/ From fqmorris at gmail.com Fri Jul 18 08:34:32 2008 From: fqmorris at gmail.com (David Morris) Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2008 08:34:32 -0500 Subject: Enzian and Tchitcherine In-Reply-To: <830c13f40807171130s635430aaod31f5e9297a91b74@mail.gmail.com> References: <830c13f40807171130s635430aaod31f5e9297a91b74@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <7d461dc80807180634k23e8a77dvef83faea2f10f3f6@mail.gmail.com> He's trying to eliminate his "shadow," his black (br)other. On Thu, Jul 17, 2008 at 1:30 PM, rich wrote: > almost done with another re-read of GR. Can anyone adequately describe the reason Tchitcherine is obsessed with killing his half-brother Enzian? don't really understand his personal motivation here--is it just a Cain and Abel deal? > > rich > From paul.mackin at verizon.net Fri Jul 18 09:46:01 2008 From: paul.mackin at verizon.net (Paul Mackin) Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2008 10:46:01 -0400 Subject: Enzian and Tchitcherine In-Reply-To: <553546.74024.qm@web38408.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <553546.74024.qm@web38408.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4880ACA9.9020309@verizon.net> Mark Kohut wrote: >> From: Mark Kohut >> Not just an offhand joke. >> >> If one of the deeper themes of GR is Why is there the self-hatred of humanity that leads to the self-destruction of War?; why is there War against our "brothers"?; Is there a Death Wish in History, in our collective psyches?.............. >> >> Freud proposed an unconscious "death instinct" or "death drive" shortly after WW I in "Beyond the Pleasure Principle." Many people started calling it a "death wish" however. >> Then, maybe that's part of the meaning of Enzian and Tchitcherine? >> >> >> --- On Thu, 7/17/08, Mark Kohut wrote: >> >> >> Subject: Re: Enzian and Tchitcherine >> To: "rich" >> Cc: "pynchon -l" >> Date: Thursday, July 17, 2008, 4:37 PM >> Half-self hatred? >> >> >> --- On Thu, 7/17/08, rich >> wrote: >> >> >>> From: rich >>> Subject: Enzian and Tchitcherine >>> To: "pynchon -l" >>> Date: Thursday, July 17, 2008, 2:30 PM >>> almost done with another re-read of GR. Can anyone >>> adequately >>> describe the reason Tchitcherine is obsessed with >>> >> killing >> >>> his >>> half-brother Enzian? don't really understand his >>> personal motivation >>> here--is it just a Cain and Abel deal? >>> >>> rich >>> > > > > > > From scuffling at gmail.com Fri Jul 18 09:51:09 2008 From: scuffling at gmail.com (Henry) Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2008 10:51:09 -0400 Subject: Enzian, Tchitcherine, Bifurcation and... Entropy? In-Reply-To: <553546.74024.qm@web38408.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <553546.74024.qm@web38408.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <006001c8e8e5$b8021c40$280654c0$@com> Black/White, Cain/Able, Us/Them, bifurcation... sound familiar? After all, "It isn't a resistance, it's a war," and it's been there all along. Opposites may sometimes attract, but when matter meets antimatter... Combatants/Armies are not opposites of each another, but categorized as such, they are opposed, and must seek each other for annihilation. "That's entropy, man!" [Michael Flanders and Donald Swann's the "First and Second Law" of Thermodynamics (lyrics: http://www.nyanko.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/fas/anotherhat_first.html ), was written in the early 60's. Here is an mp3 of it from their excellent album "At The Drop of Another Hat," http://www.uky.edu/~holler/CHE107/media/first_second_law.mp3 .] HENRY MU Information, Media, and Technology Consultant http://my.barackobama.com/page/community/blog/henrymu From fqmorris at gmail.com Fri Jul 18 09:59:21 2008 From: fqmorris at gmail.com (David Morris) Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2008 09:59:21 -0500 Subject: Enzian and Tchitcherine In-Reply-To: <4880ACA9.9020309@verizon.net> References: <553546.74024.qm@web38408.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4880ACA9.9020309@verizon.net> Message-ID: <7d461dc80807180759q5b1e3f4cx6d9d51c3c666255b@mail.gmail.com> On Fri, Jul 18, 2008 at 9:46 AM, Paul Mackin > > Freud proposed an unconscious "death instinct" or "death drive" shortly after WW I in "Beyond the Pleasure Principle." Many people started calling it a "death wish" however. It's really a very simple concept, the desire to be free of tension, a reaction against the "reality principle." Sort of an ultimate temper tantrum. From richard.romeo at gmail.com Fri Jul 18 10:12:44 2008 From: richard.romeo at gmail.com (rich) Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2008 11:12:44 -0400 Subject: Anarchy in the US In-Reply-To: <000801c8e8d3$0adae400$2090ac00$@com> References: <22973169.1216229923621.JavaMail.root@mswamui-blood.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <000801c8e8d3$0adae400$2090ac00$@com> Message-ID: <830c13f40807180812r2b71e369we485797870207805@mail.gmail.com> a-and she kinda looks like scarlett johannsen--oboy oboy rich On Fri, Jul 18, 2008 at 8:37 AM, Henry wrote: > http://www.katesharpleylibrary.net/ > > HENRY MU > Information, Media, and Technology Consultant > > http://my.barackobama.com/page/community/blog/henrymu > > From richard.romeo at gmail.com Fri Jul 18 10:15:57 2008 From: richard.romeo at gmail.com (rich) Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2008 11:15:57 -0400 Subject: Moral Nuances: Reading p. 985, AtD, in which Frank causes a train wreck In-Reply-To: <803005.4377.qm@web38403.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <803005.4377.qm@web38403.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <830c13f40807180815p5e93d5bciadfc22715c403112@mail.gmail.com> i'll say again: Frank's scene with the bomb-laden train and the federales is a pretty close replica of the scene in the film Duck, You Sucker, early 1970s. rich On Thu, Jul 17, 2008 at 4:20 PM, Mark Kohut wrote: > As threatened, accepting my own challenge to read this page of AtD showing > what I can of OBA's 'moral vision'; his nuanced 'moral vision". > > "Is the baby smiling of is it just gas?"---GR > > first paragraph straight (although formatting lost). Then whole page in gmail document with my gloss indicated by asterisks * cued to page lines > after the text. > > [Of course, I'll be disagreed with, Or, Why do other people exist? > A: to engage in dialogue] > > > p. 985 > 1-engine began to pick up speed. He swung down onto the step and was just > > about to jump when a peculiar thought occurred to him. Was this the "path" > > El Espinero had had in mind, this specific half mile of track, where suddenly > > the day had become extradimensional, the country shifted, was no longer > > the desert abstraction of a map but was speed, air rushing, the smell of > > 6-smoke and steam, time whose substance grew more condensed as each tick > > came faster and faster, all perfectly inseparable from Frank's certainty that > > jumping or not jumping was no longer the point, he belonged to what was > > happening, to the shriek from ahead as the engineer in the federal train > > leaned on his steam horn and Frank automatically responded with his own, > > 11-the two combining in a single great chord that gathered in the entire mo- > > ment, the brown-uniformed federales scattering from their train, the insane > > little engine shuddering in its frenzy, the governor valve* no longer able to > > regulate anything, and from someplace a bug came in out of the blind veloc- > > ity and went up Frank's right nostril and brought him back to the day. "Shit, " > > 16-he whispered, and let go, dropped, hit the ground, rolled with a desperate > > speed not his own, praying that he wouldn't break his leg again. > > > > --- On Thu, 7/17/08, mark.kohut at gmail.com wrote: > >> From: mark.kohut at gmail.com >> Subject: Moral Nuances: Reading p. 985, AtD, in which Frank causes a train >> To: markekohut at yahoo.com >> Date: Thursday, July 17, 2008, 4:09 PM >> I've shared a document with you called "Moral >> Nuances: Reading p. 985, >> AtD, in which Frank causes a train": >> http://docs.google.com/Doc?id=ac6b6tpw9f8h_184c7qb58c9&invite=q79kn3 >> >> It's not an attachment -- it's stored online at >> Google Docs. To open >> this document, just click the link above. --- > > > > From richard.romeo at gmail.com Fri Jul 18 10:11:12 2008 From: richard.romeo at gmail.com (rich) Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2008 11:11:12 -0400 Subject: Enzian and Tchitcherine In-Reply-To: <7d461dc80807180634k23e8a77dvef83faea2f10f3f6@mail.gmail.com> References: <830c13f40807171130s635430aaod31f5e9297a91b74@mail.gmail.com> <7d461dc80807180634k23e8a77dvef83faea2f10f3f6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <830c13f40807180811g25b9aa8jdb69f5ccad9bd9bb@mail.gmail.com> Tchitcherine does mention while being interrogated that he objects to being passed over which connects to the Herero's concept of same during their extermination and Vaslav's own failure to move past the leading edges of revelation rich On Fri, Jul 18, 2008 at 9:34 AM, David Morris wrote: > He's trying to eliminate his "shadow," his black (br)other. > > On Thu, Jul 17, 2008 at 1:30 PM, rich wrote: >> almost done with another re-read of GR. Can anyone adequately describe the reason Tchitcherine is obsessed with killing his half-brother Enzian? don't really understand his personal motivation here--is it just a Cain and Abel deal? >> >> rich >> > From against.the.dave at gmail.com Fri Jul 18 10:39:01 2008 From: against.the.dave at gmail.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2008 10:39:01 -0500 Subject: Anarchy in the US In-Reply-To: <000801c8e8d3$0adae400$2090ac00$@com> References: <22973169.1216229923621.JavaMail.root@mswamui-blood.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <000801c8e8d3$0adae400$2090ac00$@com> Message-ID: On Fri, Jul 18, 2008 at 7:37 AM, Henry wrote: > http://www.katesharpleylibrary.net/ Anarchist group meets in Waldo woods By ERICA PEREZ eperez at journalsentinel.com Posted: July 17, 2008 Waldo - Some 150 anarchists from throughout the United States and Canada descended on a strip of private land this week in this Sheboygan County village for four days of workshops, including some focused on strategizing for demonstrations at the upcoming Democratic and Republican national conventions. The 2008 CrimethInc. Convergence was the sixth annual communal campout organized by CrimethInc. Ex-Workers' Collective, an international underground network that since the mid-1990s has published widely read anarchist texts such as "Recipes for Disaster: An Anarchist Cookbook." [...] JS ONLINE: NEWS: WISCONSIN: E-MAIL | PRINT THIS STORY Anarchist group meets in Waldo woods By ERICA PEREZ eperez at journalsentinel.com Posted: July 17, 2008 Waldo - Some 150 anarchists from throughout the United States and Canada descended on a strip of private land this week in this Sheboygan County village for four days of workshops, including some focused on strategizing for demonstrations at the upcoming Democratic and Republican national conventions. On the Web CrimethInc.: www.crimethinc.com Advertisement The 2008 CrimethInc. Convergence was the sixth annual communal campout organized by CrimethInc. Ex-Workers' Collective, an international underground network that since the mid-1990s has published widely read anarchist texts such as "Recipes for Disaster: An Anarchist Cookbook." The group also has drawn the attention of FBI agents trying to infiltrate the protest movement. At the 2004 CrimethInc. gathering in Iowa, an undercover FBI operative met Eric McDavid, a California man who was found guilty last year of conspiring to burn or blow up a federal facility. CrimethInc. texts eschew government, capitalism and conformity. The collective has no members and no leader. But the convergence had plenty of policy and procedure. Decisions are made by consensus, and there are no drugs, drinking, photography or exchange of money allowed. And definitely no police or corporate media. "The locals are welcome," media liaison and local circus performer Pinkerton Xyloma said. "We have a no-media policy because the media are not considered individuals. It is a concern that people from the media will not respect people's consent or consensus." Xyloma would not say why the group was gathered in Wisconsin or what participants were discussing. He said they had no interest in violence or terrorism. On its Web site, CrimethInc. describes itself as a place where "the secret worlds of shoplifters, rioters, dropouts, deserters, adulterers, vandals, daydreamers . . . converge to form gateways to new worlds where theft, cheating, warfare, boredom, and so on are simply obsolete." [...] http://www.jsonline.com/story/index.aspx?id=773869 From scuffling at gmail.com Fri Jul 18 10:39:19 2008 From: scuffling at gmail.com (Henry) Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2008 11:39:19 -0400 Subject: King of Skull Island References: <553546.74024.qm@web38408.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <007601c8e8ec$722b8600$56829200$@com> Those of you who have cable, don't have the DVD, and couldn't pass the test described in GR, King Kong(o) will be on Turner Classic Movies (practically the only channel that I watch) tomorrow, Saturday, 18 July. Bride of Kong, anyone? HENRY MU Information, Media, and Technology Consultant http://my.barackobama.com/page/community/blog/henrymu From markekohut at yahoo.com Fri Jul 18 10:41:10 2008 From: markekohut at yahoo.com (Mark Kohut) Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2008 08:41:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: "Duck, You Sucker" aka Message-ID: <197234.95042.qm@web38402.mail.mud.yahoo.com> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Fistful_of_Dynamite#Plot_summary Arguably, A Fistful of Dynamite contains more social commentary than any other Leone film. The film opens with a quote from Mao Zedong about the nature of revolutions and class struggle.[1] Throughout the course of the film Leone delves deep into the class differences that shaped Mexico during its bloody revolution. The main villain, Gunter Ruiz (Antoine Saint-John), is presented as a Nazi-like tank commander, complete with an armored car. Throughout the movie there are numerous scenes of execution of revolutionaries by Mexican Federales. These touches were intended by Leone - who grew up in Benito Mussolini's Italy during World War II - to represent a parallel with fascism. The movie was also, despite Leone's left-wing sympathies, meant as a sort of criticism of other left-wing "revolutionary" film makers such as Jean-Luc Godard and the recent spate of so-called "Zapata Westerns" which had predominated in the Spaghetti Western genre. For this, the film suffered a great many edits and cuts. To date, many versions of the film have been released, each one offering previously unseen material. I will go out of my way to seeit as soon as I can.Wish I already had. From scuffling at gmail.com Fri Jul 18 10:43:53 2008 From: scuffling at gmail.com (Henry) Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2008 11:43:53 -0400 Subject: King of Skull Island References: <553546.74024.qm@web38408.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <007d01c8e8ed$1adacfe0$50906fa0$@com> Uh, sorry about that (did ANYONE see the "Get Smart" movie?): KK is on at 4-6 PM Eastern Time. Dark Knight, anyone? HM -----Original Message----- From: Henry Those of you who have cable, don't have the DVD, and couldn't pass the test described in GR, King Kong(o) will be on Turner Classic Movies (practically the only channel that I watch) tomorrow, Saturday, 18 July. Bride of Kong, anyone? HENRY MU Information, Media, and Technology Consultant http://my.barackobama.com/page/community/blog/henrymu From scuffling at gmail.com Fri Jul 18 10:51:33 2008 From: scuffling at gmail.com (Henry) Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2008 11:51:33 -0400 Subject: Anarchy in the US In-Reply-To: References: <22973169.1216229923621.JavaMail.root@mswamui-blood.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <000801c8e8d3$0adae400$2090ac00$@com> Message-ID: <008101c8e8ee$2782e790$7688b6b0$@com> Oh boy, oh boy! How about we all go next year, or whenever the next one is? It'd be more Pynchonian than Burning Man.... HENRY MU Information, Media, and Technology Consultant http://my.barackobama.com/page/community/blog/henrymu -----Original Message----- From: Dave Monroe Anarchist group meets in Waldo woods By ERICA PEREZ eperez at journalsentinel.com Posted: July 17, 2008 Waldo - Some 150 anarchists from throughout the United States and Canada descended on a strip of private land this week in this Sheboygan County village for four days of workshops, including some focused on strategizing for demonstrations at the upcoming Democratic and Republican national conventions. On the Web CrimethInc.: www.crimethinc.com Advertisement The 2008 CrimethInc. Convergence was the sixth annual communal campout organized by CrimethInc. Ex-Workers' Collective, an international underground network that since the mid-1990s has published widely read anarchist texts such as "Recipes for Disaster: An Anarchist Cookbook." The group also has drawn the attention of FBI agents trying to infiltrate the protest movement. At the 2004 CrimethInc. gathering in Iowa, an undercover FBI operative met Eric McDavid, a California man who was found guilty last year of conspiring to burn or blow up a federal facility. CrimethInc. texts eschew government, capitalism and conformity. The collective has no members and no leader. But the convergence had plenty of policy and procedure. Decisions are made by consensus, and there are no drugs, drinking, photography or exchange of money allowed. And definitely no police or corporate media. "The locals are welcome," media liaison and local circus performer Pinkerton Xyloma said. "We have a no-media policy because the media are not considered individuals. It is a concern that people from the media will not respect people's consent or consensus." Xyloma would not say why the group was gathered in Wisconsin or what participants were discussing. He said they had no interest in violence or terrorism. On its Web site, CrimethInc. describes itself as a place where "the secret worlds of shoplifters, rioters, dropouts, deserters, adulterers, vandals, daydreamers . . . converge to form gateways to new worlds where theft, cheating, warfare, boredom, and so on are simply obsolete." [...] http://www.jsonline.com/story/index.aspx?id=773869 From scuffling at gmail.com Fri Jul 18 10:57:07 2008 From: scuffling at gmail.com (Henry) Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2008 11:57:07 -0400 Subject: "Duck, You Sucker" aka In-Reply-To: <197234.95042.qm@web38402.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <197234.95042.qm@web38402.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <008201c8e8ee$ee9a28c0$cbce7a40$@com> For more from Leone on the railroad and its civilizing effects, ya also gotta see the beautiful "Once Upon a Time in the West," one of my top 50 fave. HENRY MU Information, Media, and Technology Consultant http://www.urdomain.us/scuffling.htm -----Original Message----- From: owner-pynchon-l at waste.org [mailto:owner-pynchon-l at waste.org] On Behalf Of Mark Kohut http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Fistful_of_Dynamite#Plot_summary Arguably, A Fistful of Dynamite contains more social commentary than any other Leone film. The film opens with a quote from Mao Zedong about the nature of revolutions and class struggle.[1] Throughout the course of the film Leone delves deep into the class differences that shaped Mexico during its bloody revolution. The main villain, Gunter Ruiz (Antoine Saint-John), is presented as a Nazi-like tank commander, complete with an armored car. Throughout the movie there are numerous scenes of execution of revolutionaries by Mexican Federales. These touches were intended by Leone - who grew up in Benito Mussolini's Italy during World War II - to represent a parallel with fascism. The movie was also, despite Leone's left-wing sympathies, meant as a sort of criticism of other left-wing "revolutionary" film makers such as Jean-Luc Godard and the recent spate of so-called "Zapata Westerns" which had predominated in the Spaghetti Western genre. For this, the film suffered a great many edits and cuts. To date, many versions of the film have been released, each one offering previously unseen material. I will go out of my way to seeit as soon as I can.Wish I already had. From against.the.dave at gmail.com Fri Jul 18 10:59:43 2008 From: against.the.dave at gmail.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2008 10:59:43 -0500 Subject: OSU Knowledge Bank In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The Knowledge Bank at OSU: Ohio State University Press Publications The Knowledge Bank at The Ohio State University has a number of ongoing digitization and research projects, and this latest collection will be of interest to a broad range of scholars or anyone else with an interest in subjects such as American history, literary criticism, or communication arts. Currently, the site contains 295 titles published by The Ohio State University Press that are not available in a traditional paper edition. Visitors can search the collection by keyword, or they can also browse around by title, author, subject, or date of publication. The collection is nothing if not eclectic, as the offerings here include the 1999 work "Rewriting Chaucer: culture, authority, and the idea of the authentic text, 1400-1602" and 1952's "History of the Ohio State University: The story of its first seventy-five years, 1873-1948". https://kb.osu.edu/dspace/handle/1811/131 http://scout.wisc.edu/Reports/ScoutReport/ From against.the.dave at gmail.com Fri Jul 18 11:00:31 2008 From: against.the.dave at gmail.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2008 11:00:31 -0500 Subject: MIT TechTv Message-ID: MIT TechTv Some people out there might be thinking: "What will MIT think up next?" Well, they've probably thought up a number of things in the time it takes just to read this sentence, but one of their latest endeavors is MIT TechTv. It's a partnership between the MIT School of Engineering and MIT Libraries Academic Media Production services, and it basically allows various members of the MIT community (and others) to locate high-quality science and engineering related videos on the web. It's pretty easy to get started, as visitors can just click on the "View" button to watch some of the latest content. Recent highlights have included Brian Chan's origami demonstrations, debates on the gas tax, and physics demonstrations. Visitors should check back frequently, as new content is added quite regularly. http://techtv.mit.edu/ http://scout.wisc.edu/Reports/ScoutReport/ From ruudsaurins at aol.com Fri Jul 18 12:03:38 2008 From: ruudsaurins at aol.com (ruudsaurins at aol.com) Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2008 13:03:38 -0400 Subject: Railroads and Civilization Message-ID: <8CAB70F5B82FC19-3AC-1175@FWM-D25.sysops.aol.com> Hoy! Hoy! ???? .....and along with "Fistful of Dynamite" and "Once Upon a Time in the West", let us not forget The Firesign Theatre's homage to railroads and civilization, "Temporarily Humboldt County", a "track" off of "Waiting for the Electrician (or Someone Like Him)"......"how long ago'd we leave Goshen?"....."What the Father means is, what is the cross made of?"..... ??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? truly, ??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? ruud -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From markekohut at yahoo.com Fri Jul 18 12:37:58 2008 From: markekohut at yahoo.com (Mark Kohut) Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2008 10:37:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Watch The Watchmen Trailer On Friday In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <585395.92485.qm@web38407.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Watchmen, the book, has moved up to #9 on Amazon's bestseller list. Think there is any causal connection? (that's rhetorical,as they say) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 9. Watchmen by Alan Moore (Author), Dave Gibbons (Author) 438 Reviews 5 star: (362) 4 star: (48) 3 star: (15) 2 star: (6) 1 star: (7) See all 438 customer reviews... (438 customer reviews) | 4 customer discussions In Stock List Price: $19.99 Price: $13.59 --- On Fri, 7/18/08, Dave Monroe wrote: > From: Dave Monroe > Subject: Re: Watch The Watchmen Trailer On Friday > To: "pynchon -l" > Date: Friday, July 18, 2008, 9:20 AM > On Thu, Jul 17, 2008 at 2:22 PM, Dave Monroe > wrote: > > > 16 July 2008 > > Watch The Watchmen Trailer On Friday > > See it first on Empire > > > > There's been a very long wait for a first look at > footage from Zack > > Snyder's take on Watchmen, The Greatest Comic Book > Of All Time™. That > > wait is very nearly over. > > > > The trailer for the movie, about a world where > betighted crime > > fighting heroes have been outlawed, will be showing in > US cinemas in > > front of The Dark Knight. But for those outside the > US, or who haven't > > snapped up a ticket for Batman's first day, you > can see the trailer > > exclusively online here at Empire on Friday morning > from 5am GMT (or > > 9pm PST on Thursday). Trust us, it's worth getting > up early for. > > > > http://www.empireonline.com/news/story.asp?NID=22942 > > > > Watchmen (2009) > > > > http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0409459/ > > http://watchmenmovie.warnerbros.com/ > > http://www.watchmencomicmovie.com/ > > > > Watchmen Trailer Details > > > > First reports of the trailer in front of Dark Knight > include a look at > > Dr. Manhattan's origins and much more > > > > > http://www.watchmencomicmovie.com/071508-watchmen-dark-knight-trailer.php > > http://watchmenmovie.warnerbros.com/ > > http://www.apple.com/trailers/wb/watchmen/ From against.the.dave at gmail.com Fri Jul 18 13:04:50 2008 From: against.the.dave at gmail.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2008 13:04:50 -0500 Subject: The Angel of the Revolution Message-ID: George Griffith, The Angel of the Revolution: A Tale of the Coming Terror (1893) http://gutenberg.net.au/ebooks06/0602281h.html http://books.google.com/books?id=sADMMsLrVUcC http://www.archive.org/details/angelofrevolutio00grifiala http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Angel_of_the_Revolution July 18, 2008...8:08 am MORE CRAZED ANARCHIST AIRSHIP COMMANDERS………ANARCHY BY ZEPPELIN! Thanks Nik for pointing out Hartmann is available to read online. I've since discovered 'THE ANGEL OF THE REVOLUTION' by RICHARD CHETWYND GRIFFITH written about the same time and another excitig accountof revolutionaries bringing anarchy by airship terror! Thanks to PROJECT GUTENBERG you can also read this out of print text online. Unlike Fawcett Griffith was a genuine radical socialist/anarchist much influenced by William Moris and the book describes the socilist utopians bombing their way to anarchy! Like fawcett Grifith didnt just sit at home - he was off adventuring and discovered the source of the Amazon 20 years before Fawcett's brother got lost up it. There's a whole genre of crazed airship commanders - and submarines in the case of Verne's embittered eco-warror Captain Nemo -with anarcho-terrorist sensibilities. I've even discovered an article entitled ' CLASS TREACHERY IN AIRSHIPCOMMANDERS IN LATE VICTORIAN FICTION'……..straight up! What a fucking find comrades! A Traitor to His Class: The Anarchist in British Fiction. by Haia Shpayer-Makov A plethora of novels published in late Victorian and Edwardian Britain contain anarchist characters. In the great majority of these works the anarchist is featured as a villain of a particularly pernicious kind. He is a master criminal, almost always part of a large-scale anarchist conspiracy whose aim is to destroy civilized society The latest KATE SHARP LIBRARY REVIEW contains a review by JOHN BARKER of THOMAS PYNCHON'S 'AGAINST THE DAY' - combining airships and anarchy! Back to the future comrades http://ianbone.wordpress.com/2008/07/18/more-crazed-anarchist-airship-commandersanarchy-by-zeppelin/ From against.the.dave at gmail.com Fri Jul 18 13:10:51 2008 From: against.the.dave at gmail.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2008 13:10:51 -0500 Subject: Against the Day by Thomas Pynchon, reviewed by John Barker Message-ID: Kate Sharpley Library KSL: Bulletin of the Kate Sharpley Library #54 out now. Review special Contents: Beer And Revolution Beer And Revolution: The German Anarchist Movement in New York City, 1880-1914 by Tom Goyens, reviewed by Ian Bone City Of Quartz by Mike Davis, reviewed by Paul Stott Bash the Rich: True-life confessions of an Anarchist in the UK by Ian Bone, reviewed by Benjamin Franks Review of My Revolutions by Hari Kunzru and Johnny Come Home by Jake Arnott New pamphlets: Rebellious Spirit: Maria Occhipinti and the Ragusa Anti-Draft Revolt of 1945 and Salvador Puig Antich and the MIL (Movimiento Ibérico de Liberación) Anarchists in the Gulag (call for translators) Against the Day by Thomas Pynchon, reviewed by John Barker The Making of the English Working Class by E.P. Thompson and Live Working or Die Fighting: How the Working Class Went Global by Paul Mason, reviewed by John Patten Review of The Poetics of Anarchy: David Edelshtat's Revolutionary Poetry by Ori Kritz Individual subscriptions: UK: £3, Europe/RoW: £6/10euro Kate Sharpley Library, BM Hurricane, London, WC1N 3XX Individual subscriptions: USA: $5 Americas/RoW $10 Kate Sharpley Library, PMB 820, 2425 Channing Way, Berkeley CA 94704, USA Will also be available at www.katesharpleylibrary.net (soonish) http://labourhistory.net/news/i0807_4.php Bulletin of the Kate Sharpley Library Issue Archive http://www.katesharpleylibrary.net/bulletin/kslbarch.htm The latest KATE SHARP LIBRARY REVIEW contains a review by JOHN BARKER of THOMAS PYNCHON'S 'AGAINST THE DAY' - combining airships and anarchy! Back to the future comrades http://ianbone.wordpress.com/2008/07/18/more-crazed-anarchist-airship-commandersanarchy-by-zeppelin/ Not quite "soonish" enough, alas ... From against.the.dave at gmail.com Fri Jul 18 13:22:31 2008 From: against.the.dave at gmail.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2008 13:22:31 -0500 Subject: AtDDtA1: The Princess Casamassima Message-ID: "'I say, Pugnax--what's that you're reading now, old fellow?' "'Rr-Rff-rff Rr-rr-rff-rrf-rrf,' replied Pugnax without looking up, which Darby, having like others in the crew got used to Pugnax's voice [...] interpreted as, 'The Princess Casamassima.' "'Ah. Some sort of ... Italian romance, I'll bet?' "'Its subject,' he was promptly informed by the ever-alert Lindsay Noseworth, who had overheard the exchange, 'is the inexorably rising tide of World Anarchism ....'" (AtD, Pt. i, pp. 5-6) http://waste.org/mail/?list=pynchon-l&month=0701&msg=114339 "... the Tristero underground, the hidden empire of disinheritance Oedipa stumbles upon (or so it seems) is highly reminiscent of the London anarchist underground James described in his novel about the disinherited, The Princess Casamassima; and Pynchon's technique for presenting it follows, in broad outline, James's rule: 'My scheme called for the suggested nearness (to all our apparently ordered life) of some sinister anarchic underworld, heaving in its pain, it power and its hate: a presentation, not of sharp particulars, but of loose appearances, vague motions and sounds and symptoms, just perceptible presences and general looming possibilities' ['Preface' to The Princess Casamassima, in The Art of the Novel, p. 76]. As Oedipa steps across the tracks and into a territory lying both beyond and beneath the official grid, the 'effects' produced on her as well as on the reader are just those James claimed he was working for, 'precisely those of our not knowing, of society's not knowing, but only guessing and suespecting and trying to ignore what "goes on" irreconcilably, subversively, beneath the vast smug surface' [ibid., p. 77]." --Pierre-Yves Petillon, "A Re-cognition of Her Errand into the Wilderness," New Essays on The Crying of Lot 49 (ed. Patrick O'Donnell). pp. 139-40 http://waste.org/mail/?list=pynchon-l&month=0108&msg=59073 A review of the Henry James novel The Princess Casamassima The Princess Casamassima, Henry James, Penguin. James peoples his novel with figures from the London anarchist scene of his day. He makes the indefatigable Johann Most serve as the basis for three characters: a bookbinder, a chemist, and a German international revolutionist, all of which Most was. Kropotkin, still tired from his journey, perhaps, will do for only one, but James compensates by giving him a sex change and making him the expatriate noblewoman of the book's title, who abandons a life of luxury to side with the oppressed. In his preface, James claims to have gathered the information with which to set the scene by sheer dogged observation: "pulling no wires, knocking at no closed doors, applying for no 'authentic' information"; instead, it was his practice to "haunt the great city and by this habit to penetrate it, imaginatively, in as many places as possible". When it comes down to it, James's "imaginative penetration" consists of projecting his personal hang-ups and his class prejudices onto the working class in general and the revolutionary socialist movement in particular. The central figure, the bookbinder, has a grudge against the nobility, while at the same time he hankers for their "cultivated" life: a clear metaphor for James's own persistent bourgeois-colonial hobnobbing. The actual absence of any true independence of mind and total incapacity for any enlightened social thinking that are the rule among both the state/industrial baronry and the academic mandarins who are their cerebral proxies — this chronic intellectual debility, which is concealed by their impressive titles, appearances, and generally exalted positions, James projects upon the would-be revolutionaries, who are all muddle and dither. The murderous selfishness of the privileged and mighty, so elegantly promoted in that day in the apparel of the academically approved doctrine of social darwinism, finds its reflection in James's novel in the portrayal of social revolution as culminating in a massive slaughter of the rich and the share-out of their property. This despite the fact that anarchist communism, i.e. collective ownership, self-management and free exchange, was well established as a revolutionary doctrine before 1886. The instrument of the revolution, at least in its early stages, is to be an international terrorist conspiracy that binds its members by oath before giving them its orders. For of course, since the violence of the ruling class really is originated in hidden hierarchical conspiracies (for the sake of "national security"), and carried out by mere myrmidons, whose slave status is sealed by swearing them in, so must revolutionary violence be ordered by shadowy command structures that enforce blind obedience by the administration of oaths so terrible that they cannot be reported. James cannot see the inhumanity, idleness, and cowardice of the rich, because of their veneer of "culture". These vices, however, are all too obvious to him in the poor: insurmountable obstacles to the creation of a just social order. Yet the evidence of tenderness, the skill, the courage of the dispossessed was all around him. It was into the bosoms of working women that the rich thrust their children for nursing, it was into the hands of the working men that they put their very lives when they went travelling, it was the sons of working men and women in the army and navy that kept them safe from their enemies and defended or extended their dominions for them. The idea that it is the sheer usefulness of the poor that makes the rich determined to keep them poor was evidently beyond Henry James. To describe and comment upon the actual plot of the novel would be to dignify it quite unjustifiably. In their blurb, the publishers describe the book as portraying "the crucial era of England before socialism". Of course, what they mean is authoritarian socialism, with its bourgeois, parliamentary, statist and militarist tactics. It would have been fascinating to read an account of life before this disease had infected the labour movement. Unfortunately, all we get is an account of the author's prejudices. Since these correspond to the ideology of the ruling class today, just as much as yesterday, they are of little interest. Recently, James's old house in Sussex was acquired by the Rolls-Royce car firm, to be used for their directors' frolics. Words or wheels, the social reality expressed is the same. MH >From Cienfuegos Press Anarchist Review #5 (1980) http://www.katesharpleylibrary.net/james.htm Thanks again, Henry ... From against.the.dave at gmail.com Fri Jul 18 13:35:00 2008 From: against.the.dave at gmail.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2008 13:35:00 -0500 Subject: AtDDtA1: The Princess Casamassima In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Jul 18, 2008 at 1:22 PM, Dave Monroe wrote: > http://waste.org/mail/?list=pynchon-l&month=0701&msg=114339 > > http://waste.org/mail/?list=pynchon-l&month=0108&msg=59073 > > A review of the Henry James novel > The Princess Casamassima > > http://www.katesharpleylibrary.net/james.htm >From Henry James, "Preface," The Princess Casamassima (NY: Penguin, 1987 [1886]), pp. 33-48 ... "It seems probable that if we were never bewildered there would never be a story to tell about us .... Therefore it is that the wary reader for the most part warns the novelist against making his character too interpretive of the muddle of fate, or in other words too divinely, too priggishly clever. 'Give us plenty of bewlidement,' this monitor seems to say, 'so long a there is plenty of slashing out in the bewliderment too. But don't, we beseech you, give us too much intelligence; for intelligence--well, endangers .... It opens up too many considerations, possibilities, issues ...." (p. 37) "The whole thing thus comes to depend on the quality of bewilderment characteristic of one's creature, the quality involved in the given case or supplied by one's data...." (p. 39) http://waste.org/mail/?list=pynchon-l&month=0108&msg=59073 From fqmorris at gmail.com Fri Jul 18 16:57:33 2008 From: fqmorris at gmail.com (David Morris) Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2008 16:57:33 -0500 Subject: Moon Transits Earth Message-ID: <7d461dc80807181457y6ddb00afo8233951cee29b023@mail.gmail.com> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MEcqWuYqrSo&eurl=http://www.neatorama.com/ From ottosell at googlemail.com Sat Jul 19 09:07:20 2008 From: ottosell at googlemail.com (Otto) Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2008 16:07:20 +0200 Subject: Gegen den Tag Message-ID: Eine grandiose Zumutung Im Roman «Gegen den Tag» unternimmt Thomas Pynchon eine Vermessung der Moderne an ihren Ursprüngen http://www.espace.ch/artikel_546692.html From markekohut at yahoo.com Sat Jul 19 09:07:46 2008 From: markekohut at yahoo.com (Mark Kohut) Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2008 07:07:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Prolegomena to Hosting AtD p. 1040ff Message-ID: <514026.52641.qm@web38405.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Foax, Well, My Spam Guard filtered out most of Becky's postings for the previous section, which I am catching up with.(The upcoming section is a different plot thread anyway) But, she signed over to me and I'm ready. I will do a lot of short postings, rather than longer ones. But I have surely overprepared, so there will be a lot of them. I might suggest visiting often, if you can and are interested enough. I will not be posting much from the P-wiki. Because I am taking much on it for common knowledge and trying to be more speculative, to fail more often but to strike deeper once in a while. "The road of excess leads to the Palace of Wisdom", wrote William Blake and we know Pynchon practices that. (So, we ants of reading him will swarm with excess--at least i will) Please comment and talk back. From robinlandseadel at comcast.net Sat Jul 19 09:37:17 2008 From: robinlandseadel at comcast.net (robinlandseadel at comcast.net) Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2008 14:37:17 +0000 Subject: Prolegomena to Hosting AtD p. 1040ff Message-ID: <071920081437.14118.4881FC1D000A4262000037262214756402040A0B0E0A9C0B020E0402070D019D@comcast.net> I'll slog along as best I can, my postings for the Novel's coda are stacking up in a little virtual folder and Mark usually is at the very least congenial as regards my mewlings. You're all on to my to my idee fixe by now, feel free to cast whatever bread upon the waters, plenty of stuff flyin' 'round ready to get picked up by sumthin'. . . . If my re-posting of bits and pieces of CoL 49 vis the cover of AtD seems redundant, consider this: as much of The Crying of Lot 49 has to do with concealment, the night, dark plots and revelation deferred, Against the Day concerns itself with revelation, light, illumination and the possibility of Grace. From markekohut at yahoo.com Sat Jul 19 10:00:16 2008 From: markekohut at yahoo.com (Mark Kohut) Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2008 08:00:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: AtD (37) pp.1040 ff. Thoughts on Lew Basnight, detective. Message-ID: <334582.28441.qm@web38406.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Against the Day, p. 1040ff Why is he in AtD? He threads through from the beginning in Chicago. I suggest he is the major anchor of reality/search for truth in AtD. As in any novel, we have to get the author's perspective on the various characters, their actions and utterances. In a satiric work, as is (most of) TRPs, and in AtD, where so much is "mediated' reality, often not Reality, the author needs to ground us through his satiric vision (I offer much o the maths stuff as the best example of difficulty in 'getting' how TRP means much of it). The Detective: Overview The detective in fiction (largely) started in the 19th Century a bit before the time when ATD begins. E. A. Poe is often credited with its origins, as well as a Frenchman I'm too lazy to look up. Sherlock Holmes is, maybe, the first touchstone of achievement in detective fiction. He figures everything out amidst all the confusions of life. When the writer is TRP exploring, among so much else, the meaning of History, 20th Century America, modernity, is he[TRP} like the detective figure? From a recent Guardian blog---which is similarly expressed elsewhere: "The detective is a metaphor for the writer: the isolated figure trying to comprehend a disordered world, constructing a narrative that makes sense, and trying to persuade others to believe in his or her account." We know TRP has used the detective-like form before---V. and especially C of Lot 49, usually to frustrate any solving of "the mystery"... Is it the same in AtD, or in this work are we given some/more answers? From ottosell at googlemail.com Sat Jul 19 11:16:49 2008 From: ottosell at googlemail.com (Otto) Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2008 18:16:49 +0200 Subject: np radioplay "Berlin Alexanderplatz" Message-ID: historical recording from 1930: - - - - 09.08.2008 · 20:05 Uhr Die Geschichte vom Franz Biberkopf Zum 130. Geburtstag des Autors Von Alfred Döblin Alfred Döblins berühmtester Roman von ihm selbst zum Hörspiel adaptiert: Biberkopf möchte groß sein und scheitert an den kleinen Verhältnissen, möchte ein anständiges Leben führen und landet im Gefängnis. Die für den 30. September 1930 geplante Sendung - 14 Tage nach der Reichstagswahl, bei der die NSDAP die Zahl ihrer Mandate fast verzehnfachen konnte - wurde vier Stunden vor dem Sendetermin abgesagt. Die von Döblin mit Alfred Braun erarbeiteten "Versuchsaufnahmen" verschwanden im Archiv und wurden erst rund 20 Jahre später urgesendet. Regie: Max Bing Komposition: Walter Goehr Darsteller: Heinrich George, Hilde Körber, Oskar Ebelsbacher u.a. Produktion: Reichsrundfunkgesellschaft 1930 Länge: 77'13" http://www.dradio.de/dlf/programmtipp/hoerspiel/792142/ From bekker2 at mac.com Sat Jul 19 12:25:50 2008 From: bekker2 at mac.com (Bekah) Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2008 10:25:50 -0700 Subject: meta-something In-Reply-To: <007801c8e76d$7a164330$6e42c990$@com> References: <22973169.1216229923621.JavaMail.root@mswamui-blood.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <007801c8e76d$7a164330$6e42c990$@com> Message-ID: <889AD64D-1D1E-4746-99BB-F132732D7CAC@mac.com> On Jul 16, 2008, at 10:57 AM, Henry wrote: > I turn to fiction because of the hubris of non-fiction's posing as > fact when, in fact, fact is in the arty-facts. Oh hello from days ago but this just won't get out of mind. I think I understand what you're saying and yes, the idea of meta-history seems always just under the surface in AtD. Pynchon may be very subtly stirring a wee bit of iron-y flavored meta-history into the mix , what with some ever so slightly skewed chronology and a smattering of curious omissions. However, and I think this is most evident in the Luddlow part, there are some "events" which are, even later, beyond metaphor. The memory has emotional impact. We are stirred when we first learn of it and say stuff like "where was that in the history books?" It was hidden between Manifest Destiny and WWI -in the part about "Give me your tired, your poor, your ignorant." No, Ludlow deserves the very clearest and most direct language we can offer because words become all we have. To do less would be to sweep the barbaric hubris of capitalist greed into some kind of dust- bin of "history is bunk." Yes, history from the top has its poses as does history from the bottom - nevertheless, we ought not throw the baby out with the bath water. Remember Catalonia and all that - as best we can. One thing I've noticed is that Pychon generally respects the limits of metaphor so as not to dishonor the atrocities. He tends to steer a bit clear of dealing with historical genocides (Indian, Jewish, Armenian and so on). That said, from the workers' pov he hit the Ludlow Massacre head on - metaphor or not (and was actually much pretty dry in that department) - because sometimes words are all we have. I wonder about the consistency of my position here but although I kinda, sorta, understand the ideas of Hayden White - there is, nevertheless, a time and place for the clearest language we have (metaphor or not, because it will speak for itself) so as not to forget the magnitude of human inhumanity. Bekah From against.the.dave at gmail.com Sat Jul 19 13:17:37 2008 From: against.the.dave at gmail.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2008 13:17:37 -0500 Subject: Against the Day by Thomas Pynchon, reviewed by John Barker In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Jul 18, 2008 at 1:10 PM, Dave Monroe wrote: > Kate Sharpley Library > > KSL: Bulletin of the Kate Sharpley Library #54 out now. Review special > Contents: [...] > Against the Day by Thomas Pynchon, reviewed by John Barker [...] > Individual subscriptions: UK: £3, Europe/RoW: £6/10euro > Kate Sharpley Library, BM Hurricane, London, WC1N 3XX > Individual subscriptions: USA: $5 Americas/RoW $10 > Kate Sharpley Library, PMB 820, 2425 Channing Way, Berkeley CA 94704, USA > > Will also be available at www.katesharpleylibrary.net (soonish) > > http://labourhistory.net/news/i0807_4.php > > Bulletin of the Kate Sharpley Library > Issue Archive > > http://www.katesharpleylibrary.net/bulletin/kslbarch.htm > > The latest KATE SHARP LIBRARY REVIEW contains a review by JOHN BARKER > of THOMAS PYNCHON'S 'AGAINST THE DAY' - combining airships and > anarchy! Back to the future comrades > > http://ianbone.wordpress.com/2008/07/18/more-crazed-anarchist-airship-commandersanarchy-by-zeppelin/ Readers Please Note: due to an error in numbering of the original print run of the bulletin, issues No. 7 and 8 do not actually exist. http://www.katesharpleylibrary.net/bulletin/kslbarch.htm From igrlivingston at gmail.com Sat Jul 19 14:09:45 2008 From: igrlivingston at gmail.com (Ian Livingston) Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2008 12:09:45 -0700 Subject: AtD (37) pp.1040 ff. Thoughts on Lew Basnight, detective. In-Reply-To: <334582.28441.qm@web38406.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <334582.28441.qm@web38406.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <95cde1ee0807191209l31d62eaaj5b0f7d4e66b4b938@mail.gmail.com> I have to do a couple of things here I've got used to disliking. First I have to backpedal a little on the discussion of flat and round characters. It occurred to me that it just may be that my identification of the relative roundness of Pynchon's characters is largely projection. I see them as quite round because I identify them as aspects of the psyche, therefore they are familiar to me as neighbors, friends, lovers and enemies. I know them all intimately and therefore see them as round even though that may not hold up under textual scrutiny. That said, I have to repeat myself concerning the significance of alchemy in TRP's entire opus. Now half through Jung's *Mysterium Coniunctionis*, and having burned through *Alchemy and Psychology*, as well as a pair of works on alchemy by Mircea Eliade it is clear to me that our boy not only read but internalized much of Jung's work on alchemy. I see alchemy anchored in *V.* and running as a strong current throughout Pynchon's works. That current is a swollen delta merging into the sea in AtD. It is unmistakable and inescapable. In fact I think the book is nearly impossible to understand without a working apprehension of Jung's work. With a little knowledge it goes from impossible to difficult. I can't guess what a rich understanding of alchemy might bear on the work. This reflects on the character of Lew Basnight in just what you suggest here, Mark, though perhaps slightly mediated. If AtD is, as I suspect, a big, fat consciousness, an observing perspective engaged in the mystery of being, then it must have a dominant monad, a central, unifying self identity, aka, ego. I think Web Traverse may be that ego and Lew Basnight is his minister. Consider the nature of Basnight's employment: a spiritual detective in search of the mysterious bomber. What does the self do in reality? It blasts reality into digestible pieces and lovingly devours those pieces. Sorry I can't recollect who it was among you suggested that the Traverse siblings were elements of Web. I do heartily agree. In the section "The Personification of the Opposites" in the *Mysterium*, Jung suggests that draco might be identified with Osiris who is cut up and strewn around the world for Isis to gather together, reconstruct and revivify. He is the god of the ebb and flow of the Nile, thus he is associated with the sea, which is chaos. Does anyone else sense an association between chaos and anarchy, or am I alone in this? One is a condition, the other a conviction, but both reflect similar virtues. The role of chaos is fundamental in alchemy. It is the dark night in which salvation gestates. The sea is the primordial chaos. Think of Kit's crossing. Then, what does Lew eventually accomplish? I'll remain silent on that until the time is right, but for those who have read ahead, Lew's significance seems great. I know this is an incomplete offering, but I have to go work for a while. Someone is waiting on me. Perhaps I can carve out some more time later. On Sat, Jul 19, 2008 at 8:00 AM, Mark Kohut wrote: > Against the Day, p. 1040ff > > Why is he in AtD? He threads through from the beginning in Chicago. I > suggest he is the major anchor of reality/search for truth in AtD. > > As in any novel, we have to get the author's perspective on the various > characters, their actions and utterances. In a satiric work, as is (most of) > TRPs, and in AtD, where so much is "mediated' reality, often not Reality, > the author needs to ground us through his satiric vision (I offer much o the > maths stuff as the best example of difficulty in 'getting' how TRP means > much of it). > > The Detective: Overview > > The detective in fiction (largely) started in the 19th Century a bit before > the time when ATD begins. E. A. Poe is often credited with its origins, as > well as a Frenchman I'm too lazy to look up. Sherlock Holmes is, maybe, the > first touchstone of achievement in detective fiction. He figures everything > out amidst all the confusions of life. > > When the writer is TRP exploring, among so much else, the meaning of > History, 20th Century America, modernity, is he[TRP} like the detective > figure? From a recent Guardian blog---which is similarly expressed > elsewhere: > > "The detective is a metaphor for the writer: the isolated figure trying to > comprehend a disordered world, constructing a narrative that makes sense, > and trying to persuade others to believe in his or her account." > > We know TRP has used the detective-like form before---V. and especially C > of Lot 49, usually to frustrate any solving of "the mystery"... > > Is it the same in AtD, or in this work are we given some/more answers? > > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From against.the.dave at gmail.com Sat Jul 19 14:59:02 2008 From: against.the.dave at gmail.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2008 14:59:02 -0500 Subject: AtD (37) pp.1040 ff. Thoughts on Lew Basnight, detective. In-Reply-To: <334582.28441.qm@web38406.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <334582.28441.qm@web38406.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Jul 19, 2008 at 10:00 AM, Mark Kohut wrote: > "The detective is a metaphor for the writer: the isolated figure trying to comprehend a disordered world, constructing a narrative that makes sense, and trying to persuade others to believe in his or her account." "It seems probable that if we were never bewildered there would never be a story to tell about us .... Therefore it is that the wary reader for the most part warns the novelist against making his character too interpretive of the muddle of fate, or in other words too divinely, too priggishly clever. 'Give us plenty of bewlidement,' this monitor seems to say, 'so long a there is plenty of slashing out in the bewliderment too. But don't, we beseech you, give us too much intelligence; for intelligence--well, endangers .... It opens up too many considerations, possibilities, issues ...." --Henry James, "Preface," The Princess Casamassima (1886) http://waste.org/mail/?list=pynchon-l&month=0701&msg=114339 I'd venture that the history of "Western thought," literature, what have you, is a series of detective stories, attempt to reveal truths occluded by appearances (e.g., Plato's Parable of the Cave). Then's there's Poe's "Purloined Letter," hidden in plain sight ... http://waste.org/mail/?list=pynchon-l&month=0701&msg=114275 Not to mention Robbe-Grillet's Erasers ... http://www.groveatlantic.com/grove/bin/wc.dll?groveproc~genauth~625~1158~DESC Then ... From markekohut at yahoo.com Sat Jul 19 15:53:16 2008 From: markekohut at yahoo.com (Mark Kohut) Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2008 13:53:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: AtD (37) pp.1040 ff. Thoughts on Lew Basnight, detective. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <400874.42265.qm@web38408.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Lew Basnight in AtD is most like Slothrop in GR? --- On Sat, 7/19/08, Dave Monroe wrote: > From: Dave Monroe > Subject: Re: AtD (37) pp.1040 ff. Thoughts on Lew Basnight, detective. > To: markekohut at yahoo.com > Cc: "pynchon -l" > Date: Saturday, July 19, 2008, 3:59 PM > On Sat, Jul 19, 2008 at 10:00 AM, Mark Kohut > wrote: > > > "The detective is a metaphor for the writer: the > isolated figure trying to comprehend a disordered world, > constructing a narrative that makes sense, and trying to > persuade others to believe in his or her account." > > "It seems probable that if we were never bewildered > there would never > be a story to tell about us .... Therefore it is that the > wary reader > for the most part warns the novelist against making his > character too > interpretive of the muddle of fate, or in other words too > divinely, > too priggishly clever. 'Give us plenty of > bewlidement,' this monitor > seems to say, 'so long a there is plenty of slashing > out in the > bewliderment too. But don't, we beseech you, give us > too much > intelligence; for intelligence--well, endangers .... It > opens up too > many considerations, possibilities, issues ...." > > --Henry James, "Preface," The Princess > Casamassima (1886) > > http://waste.org/mail/?list=pynchon-l&month=0701&msg=114339 > > I'd venture that the history of "Western > thought," literature, what > have you, is a series of detective stories, attempt to > reveal truths > occluded by appearances (e.g., Plato's Parable of the > Cave). Then's > there's Poe's "Purloined Letter," hidden > in plain sight ... > > http://waste.org/mail/?list=pynchon-l&month=0701&msg=114275 > > Not to mention Robbe-Grillet's Erasers ... > > http://www.groveatlantic.com/grove/bin/wc.dll?groveproc~genauth~625~1158~DESC > > Then ... From markekohut at yahoo.com Sat Jul 19 19:05:47 2008 From: markekohut at yahoo.com (Mark Kohut) Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2008 17:05:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: AtD (37) 1040 ff. More on Lew Basnight Message-ID: <771842.66899.qm@web38408.mail.mud.yahoo.com> a DISCUSSION page on the wiki: "Bas" in French means "low" and is related to the English "base" and "bass." Both the French and the English words signal not simply "low down," but also "deep"; we see this especially in music, with voices or instruments that are bass." I think that Lew may be, as mentioned above regarding the reality principle, so to speak, a kind of baseline in the novel. He explores some of the darkest [night] themes in AtD? Lew is central to, at least, two MAJOR thematic meanings in 'Against the Day'...he survives a dynamite blast.....A-and, he gives us the AtD meaning of grace. He is key to 'getting AtD', I say. He is some kind of authorial certainty (re what?. From markekohut at yahoo.com Sat Jul 19 19:09:22 2008 From: markekohut at yahoo.com (Mark Kohut) Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2008 17:09:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: AtD (37) pp.1040 ff. Thoughts on Lew Basnight, detective. In-Reply-To: <95cde1ee0807191209l31d62eaaj5b0f7d4e66b4b938@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <436554.32695.qm@web38403.mail.mud.yahoo.com> You must be right on Jung....in ways we have yet to explore...... And, if ATD is a big fat consciousness, maybe it is the author's consciousness or the one who writes the Chums' books? --- On Sat, 7/19/08, Ian Livingston wrote: > From: Ian Livingston > Subject: Re: AtD (37) pp.1040 ff. Thoughts on Lew Basnight, detective. > To: markekohut at yahoo.com, "pynchon -l" > Date: Saturday, July 19, 2008, 3:09 PM > I have to do a couple of things here I've got used to > disliking. First I > have to backpedal a little on the discussion of flat and > round characters. > It occurred to me that it just may be that my > identification of the > relative roundness of Pynchon's characters is largely > projection. I see > them as quite round because I identify them as aspects of > the psyche, > therefore they are familiar to me as neighbors, friends, > lovers and > enemies. I know them all intimately and therefore see them > as round even > though that may not hold up under textual scrutiny. That > said, I have to > repeat myself concerning the significance of alchemy in > TRP's entire opus. > Now half through Jung's *Mysterium Coniunctionis*, and > having burned through > *Alchemy and Psychology*, as well as a pair of works on > alchemy by Mircea > Eliade it is clear to me that our boy not only read but > internalized much of > Jung's work on alchemy. I see alchemy anchored in *V.* > and running as a > strong current throughout Pynchon's works. > > That current is a swollen delta merging into the sea in > AtD. It is > unmistakable and inescapable. In fact I think the book is > nearly impossible > to understand without a working apprehension of Jung's > work. With a little > knowledge it goes from impossible to difficult. I > can't guess what a rich > understanding of alchemy might bear on the work. This > reflects on the > character of Lew Basnight in just what you suggest here, > Mark, though > perhaps slightly mediated. If AtD is, as I suspect, a big, > fat > consciousness, an observing perspective engaged in the > mystery of being, > then it must have a dominant monad, a central, unifying > self identity, aka, > ego. I think Web Traverse may be that ego and Lew Basnight > is his > minister. Consider the nature of Basnight's > employment: a spiritual > detective in search of the mysterious bomber. What does > the self do in > reality? It blasts reality into digestible pieces and > lovingly devours > those pieces. Sorry I can't recollect who it was among > you suggested that > the Traverse siblings were elements of Web. I do heartily > agree. In the > section "The Personification of the Opposites" in > the *Mysterium*, Jung > suggests that draco might be identified with Osiris who is > cut up and strewn > around the world for Isis to gather together, reconstruct > and revivify. He > is the god of the ebb and flow of the Nile, thus he is > associated with the > sea, which is chaos. Does anyone else sense an association > between chaos > and anarchy, or am I alone in this? One is a condition, > the other a > conviction, but both reflect similar virtues. The role of > chaos is > fundamental in alchemy. It is the dark night in which > salvation gestates. > The sea is the primordial chaos. Think of Kit's > crossing. Then, what does > Lew eventually accomplish? I'll remain silent on that > until the time is > right, but for those who have read ahead, Lew's > significance seems great. > > I know this is an incomplete offering, but I have to go > work for a while. > Someone is waiting on me. Perhaps I can carve out some > more time later. > > On Sat, Jul 19, 2008 at 8:00 AM, Mark Kohut > wrote: > > > Against the Day, p. 1040ff > > > > Why is he in AtD? He threads through from the > beginning in Chicago. I > > suggest he is the major anchor of reality/search for > truth in AtD. > > > > As in any novel, we have to get the author's > perspective on the various > > characters, their actions and utterances. In a satiric > work, as is (most of) > > TRPs, and in AtD, where so much is "mediated' > reality, often not Reality, > > the author needs to ground us through his satiric > vision (I offer much o the > > maths stuff as the best example of difficulty in > 'getting' how TRP means > > much of it). > > > > The Detective: Overview > > > > The detective in fiction (largely) started in the 19th > Century a bit before > > the time when ATD begins. E. A. Poe is often credited > with its origins, as > > well as a Frenchman I'm too lazy to look up. > Sherlock Holmes is, maybe, the > > first touchstone of achievement in detective fiction. > He figures everything > > out amidst all the confusions of life. > > > > When the writer is TRP exploring, among so much else, > the meaning of > > History, 20th Century America, modernity, is he[TRP} > like the detective > > figure? From a recent Guardian blog---which is > similarly expressed > > elsewhere: > > > > "The detective is a metaphor for the writer: the > isolated figure trying to > > comprehend a disordered world, constructing a > narrative that makes sense, > > and trying to persuade others to believe in his or her > account." > > > > We know TRP has used the detective-like form > before---V. and especially C > > of Lot 49, usually to frustrate any solving of > "the mystery"... > > > > Is it the same in AtD, or in this work are we given > some/more answers? > > > > > > > > > > > > From against.the.dave at gmail.com Sat Jul 19 22:53:37 2008 From: against.the.dave at gmail.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2008 22:53:37 -0500 Subject: The Coming Popularity and Power of Luddism Message-ID: The Coming Popularity and Power of Luddism Written by Stephen Euin Cobb Once upon a time a man got laid off from his job. So did most of his neighbors. They had all worked for a factory in their town but the factory upgraded the old machines for more efficient machines which needed fewer operators. The man who was laid off was very angry. He ranted and raved and whipped his neighbors into an angry mob and together they trashed the factory.... http://www.baens-universe.com/articles/The_Coming_Popularity_and_Power_of_Luddism From markekohut at yahoo.com Sun Jul 20 06:43:03 2008 From: markekohut at yahoo.com (Mark Kohut) Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2008 04:43:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: AtD (37) pp. 1040 ff Misc. Background and On Broadway Message-ID: <522066.99298.qm@web38404.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Misc background? Nathanael West, a TRP influence, whose 100th anniversary is this year, wrote about Southern California (and Hollywood) in 'Day of the Locust" : "West likens the inhabitant of the southland as a participant in a masquerade" ..Or just an FYI. p. 1040 Broadway (L.A.) --from wiki One of the oldest streets in the city, this section of Broadway (originally called Fort Street) was laid out as part of the 1849 plan of Los Angeles made by Lieutenant Edward Ord. Broadway from First Street to Olympic Boulevard was for more than fifty years the main commercial street of Los Angeles and one of its premier theater districts as well, containing a vast number of historic buildings and is listed on the National Register of Historic Places. Before World War II, Broadway was considered by many to be the center of the city, where residents came to catch movies at ornate movie palaces and shop at department stores. 'vast interior court below a domed skylight"....colours more intense... like a natural building only heightened......like the movies, I might throw out. "stunt" performers. another little bi-location joke? Doppelganger joke? :The 1930's marked the beginning of Hollywood's glory days. It was during this action-filled period that the modern profession of stunts truly began.--History of Stunts A little anachronous here? {we are in the 20s] Probably there were some earlier, perhaps especially for starlets. From markekohut at yahoo.com Sun Jul 20 06:46:18 2008 From: markekohut at yahoo.com (Mark Kohut) Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2008 04:46:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: AtD (37) p.1040 Thetis, Shalimar and Mezzanine Message-ID: <33512.79193.qm@web38403.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Thetis: Mother of Achilles (in the Iliad; in Greek mythology)....and, much later (smile) a battleship in the real world.(Also, a name in a Ronald Firbank novel. Pynchon seems to have read Firbank, says Harold Bloom. [Much AtD dialogue is Firbank-like, from my partial reading of one novel] Shalimar: A railway station in India, a perfume and also a battleship HMS Shalimar (P242), Mezzanine: a floor between main and first floors (nice "making it in Hollywood" joke?) From robinlandseadel at comcast.net Sun Jul 20 07:39:32 2008 From: robinlandseadel at comcast.net (robinlandseadel at comcast.net) Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2008 12:39:32 +0000 Subject: AtD (37) pp. 1040 ff Misc. Background and On Broadway Message-ID: <072020081239.20591.48833204000DCF370000506F2215593414040A0B0E0A9C0B020E0402070D019D@comcast.net> Lew Baslight has an obvious point of reference that no one has amplified on here [I touched on the subject sometime back.] The Firesign Theater has many elements in their surreal audio epics that overlap with Pynchon's world. Lew Baslight conceptually owes a bit to "Nick Danger, Third Eye," particularly the parodistic aspects, the willingness to find nothing [or everything] sacred. But even more to the point, the mis-en-scene of Against the Day might have been ripped right out of "W.C. Fields Forever" from "Waiting for the Electrician or Someone Like Him." "Now that you're so down-home tribal & all I want to take you up to the second bardo and orient you." Cross references to heretical spiritual systems at the "Lazy Ohm Collective Love Farm and Dues Ranch"---theosophy, tarot, illumination from the "mystic east" ["here, let me lay a stick of sandalwood incense on you, cut it off my own sandals"---proceeds to make sounds of joint being lit and inhaled] are just as densely distributed and silly as in Against the Day. "After Eight Years, Paint Brown," in addition to being a cool Bob Dylan citation resonates with Gravity's Rainbow, both in its paranoia and its sillyness. If Against the Day is to a certain extant a backward look I'd point to "Four or Five Crazy Guys" getting a little tip of the hat from OBA, particularly in the character of Lew. From markekohut at yahoo.com Sun Jul 20 07:52:09 2008 From: markekohut at yahoo.com (Mark Kohut) Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2008 05:52:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: AtD (37) p.1040 Thetis, Shalimar and Mezzanine In-Reply-To: <33512.79193.qm@web38403.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <363592.99634.qm@web38406.mail.mud.yahoo.com> belated research indicates that the mezzanine deck is where torpedoes are kept on submarines......... So, we have two battleships and a torpedo deck surrounding Lew. --- On Sun, 7/20/08, Mark Kohut wrote: > From: Mark Kohut > Subject: AtD (37) p.1040 Thetis, Shalimar and Mezzanine > To: "pynchon -l" > Date: Sunday, July 20, 2008, 7:46 AM > Thetis: Mother of Achilles (in the Iliad; in Greek > mythology)....and, much later (smile) a battleship in the > real world.(Also, a name in a Ronald Firbank novel. Pynchon > seems to have read Firbank, says Harold Bloom. [Much AtD > dialogue is Firbank-like, from my partial reading of one > novel] > > Shalimar: A railway station in India, a perfume and also a > battleship HMS Shalimar (P242), > > Mezzanine: a floor between main and first floors (nice > "making it in Hollywood" joke?) From robinlandseadel at comcast.net Sun Jul 20 09:12:26 2008 From: robinlandseadel at comcast.net (robinlandseadel at comcast.net) Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2008 14:12:26 +0000 Subject: AtD (37) pp.1040 ff. Thoughts on Lew Basnight, detective. Message-ID: <072020081412.18737.488347CA0008A4C0000049312215553894040A0B0E0A9C0B020E0402070D019D@comcast.net> Against the Day is a meta-fiction, a fiction concerned with fictions. There are many parodies of genres that first saw the light of day in the era of Against the Day. The Crime Novel or Mystery is a genre that blossomed during the era of Against the Day, Sherlock Holmes being but the most obvious example. Dashiell Hammett, an ex-Pinkerton, is more of the Hard-boiled Dick found in the States and closer to the mark for Lew. And of course, don't forget the previously cited Lew Archer: Profile Initially, Lew Archer was similar to (if not completely derivative of) Philip Marlowe. However, he eventually broke from that mold, though some similarities remain. Archer's principal difference is that he is much more openly sensitive and empathetic than the tough Marlowe. He also serves a different function than Marlowe. Raymond Chandler's books were studies of Marlowe's character and code of honor, while Macdonald used Archer as a lens to explore the relationships of the other characters in the novels. Archer's name is an homage to Dashiell Hammett: "Miles Archer" was the name of Sam Spade's murdered partner in The Maltese Falcon. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lew_Archer I keep turning back to The Crying of Lot 49 as something of a coda for Against the Day, Oedipa looking backwards at the detritus of a scene that manages to continue in darkness, a scene displayed in full daylight in AtD. Raymond Chandler's sense of place and the crude mechanics of local political power infuse The Crying of Lot 49. In AtD the character of Lew ties together the central thread of the story---Scarsdale Vibe's "hit" on Webb and the family's response to to Webb's execution. The loose ends of that story are all tied up thanks to some smooth teamwork between the psychic detective and the alchemical photographer. From against.the.dave at gmail.com Sun Jul 20 09:24:01 2008 From: against.the.dave at gmail.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2008 09:24:01 -0500 Subject: Trek, Zone, Peaks Message-ID: http://www.cbs.com/classics/star_trek/ http://www.cbs.com/classics/the_twilight_zone/ http://www.cbs.com/classics/twin_peaks/ From markekohut at yahoo.com Sun Jul 20 09:40:35 2008 From: markekohut at yahoo.com (Mark Kohut) Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2008 07:40:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: AtD (37) pp.1040 ff. Thoughts on Lew Basnight, detective. In-Reply-To: <072020081412.18737.488347CA0008A4C0000049312215553894040A0B0E0A9C0B020E0402070D019D@comcast.net> Message-ID: <439279.70979.qm@web38406.mail.mud.yahoo.com> I vote for more Lew Archer resonances in Lew [!] Basnight than the others, although of course, all of them resonate ala Pynchon's shimmering, layered way. Lew Archer because of 1) the name 2) the 'sensitive' detective 3) his mystery solutions are Freudian family dramas, Oedipal in many instances. 4) Very hot--reviewed on front page on NY Times by Eudora Welty when OBA was inhaling many of his intellectual sources. --- On Sun, 7/20/08, robinlandseadel at comcast.net wrote: > From: robinlandseadel at comcast.net > Subject: Re: AtD (37) pp.1040 ff. Thoughts on Lew Basnight, detective. > To: "P-list" > Date: Sunday, July 20, 2008, 10:12 AM > Against the Day is a meta-fiction, a fiction concerned with > fictions. > There are many parodies of genres that first saw the light > of day > in the era of Against the Day. The Crime Novel or Mystery > is a > genre that blossomed during the era of Against the Day, > Sherlock > Holmes being but the most obvious example. Dashiell > Hammett, > an ex-Pinkerton, is more of the Hard-boiled Dick found in > the > States and closer to the mark for Lew. And of course, > don't > forget the previously cited Lew Archer: > > Profile > > Initially, Lew Archer was similar to (if not > completely derivative > of) Philip Marlowe. However, he eventually broke > from that > mold, though some similarities remain. > Archer's principal > difference is that he is much more openly > sensitive and > empathetic than the tough Marlowe. He also serves > a > different function than Marlowe. Raymond > Chandler's books > were studies of Marlowe's character and code > of honor, while > Macdonald used Archer as a lens to explore the > relationships of > the other characters in the novels. > > Archer's name is an homage to Dashiell > Hammett: "Miles > Archer" was the name of Sam Spade's > murdered partner in > The Maltese Falcon. > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lew_Archer > > I keep turning back to The Crying of Lot 49 as something of > a coda > for Against the Day, Oedipa looking backwards at the > detritus of a > scene that manages to continue in darkness, a scene > displayed > in full daylight in AtD. Raymond Chandler's sense of > place and the crude > mechanics of local political power infuse The Crying of Lot > 49. In AtD the > character of Lew ties together the central thread of the > story---Scarsdale > Vibe's "hit" on Webb and the family's > response to to Webb's execution. > The loose ends of that story are all tied up thanks to some > smooth > teamwork between the psychic detective and the alchemical > photographer. From paul.mackin at verizon.net Sun Jul 20 10:02:12 2008 From: paul.mackin at verizon.net (Paul Mackin) Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2008 11:02:12 -0400 Subject: AtD (37) pp. 1040 ff Misc. Background and On Broadway In-Reply-To: <522066.99298.qm@web38404.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <522066.99298.qm@web38404.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <48835374.1030700@verizon.net> Mark Kohut wrote: > Misc background? Nathanael West, a TRP influence, whose 100th anniversary is this year, wrote about Southern California (and Hollywood) in 'Day of the Locust" : "West likens the inhabitant of the southland as a participant in a masquerade" ..Or just an FYI. > > p. 1040 Broadway (L.A.) --from wiki > One of the oldest streets in the city, this section of Broadway (originally called Fort Street) was laid out as part of the 1849 plan of Los Angeles made by Lieutenant Edward Ord. Broadway from First Street to Olympic Boulevard was for more than fifty years the main commercial street of Los Angeles and one of its premier theater districts as well, containing a vast number of historic buildings and is listed on the National Register of Historic Places. > > Before World War II, Broadway was considered by many to be the center of the city, where residents came to catch movies at ornate movie palaces and shop at department stores. > This is the locale of the book I guess I feel most connected to. My future parents moved to L.A. in the early twenties and I was born near mid-decade. I habituated the Broadway movie theaters and other attractions a lot during the WW II years. By that time new movies had their West Coast openings on Hollywood Blvd. as well as on Broadway, but I much preferred to see them on Broadway. We lived about half way between, but I loved the trolley ride downtown. I think Pynchon gets by-gone L.A. fairly well. Overall, the feel seems right. The "three levels of security" in Lew's office is a little joke. Everyone knows private eyes didn't have a lot of security. My impression is that the L.A. and Hollywood of my day was extremely relaxed about any kind of "security." At least in situations I would be likely to encounter. High school or college kids could wander into exclusive beach clubs etc and hang around for hours sometimes before being asked to leave. Pynchon is good on Southern Cal but he's not quite a native speaker. For example, while one would go "up to" Santa Barbara, it doesn't sound at all right going "up to" Hollywood. One goes "over to" Hollywood. Hollywood does have its "hills" but you don't start up into them unless you are already as far as, say, Hollywood and Vine. (oddly, you might possibly get away with saying "up to Pasadena" although "over to" would be more common) Santa Barbara sounded pretty authentic. I didn't really know the old downtown Santa Barbara--before the mission decor took over a few years after the goings on with Lew. The state picnics are well done. Been to a number of them. P. > 'vast interior court below a domed skylight"....colours more intense... > like a natural building only heightened......like the movies, I might throw out. > > "stunt" performers. another little bi-location joke? Doppelganger joke? > > :The 1930's marked the beginning of Hollywood's glory days. It was during this action-filled period that the modern profession of stunts truly began.--History of Stunts > > A little anachronous here? {we are in the 20s] Probably there were some earlier, perhaps especially for starlets. > > > > > > From markekohut at yahoo.com Sun Jul 20 10:40:32 2008 From: markekohut at yahoo.com (Mark Kohut) Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2008 08:40:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: AtD (37) p. 1040...more electricty and railroads Message-ID: <748816.75670.qm@web38401.mail.mud.yahoo.com> The Pacific Electric Building (also known as the Huntington Building, after the developer, Henry Huntington, or 6th & Main for its location) opened in 1905 as the terminal for the Pacific Electric Red Car Lines running east and south of downtown Los Angeles, as well as the company's main headquarters building. It was designed by architect Thornton Fitzhugh. Though not the first modern building in Los Angeles, nor the tallest, its large footprint and ten floor height made it the largest building in floor area west of Chicago for several decades after its completion. Above the main floor terminal were five floors of offices and, on the top three floors, the facilities of the Jonathan Club, one of the city's leading businessmen's clubs. Sold, later to The Southern Pacific Railroad More, more of Pynchon's railroads and electricity and their connections...Are there more railroads in AtD than in any other novel, poem, epic ever? I want to NOTE WELL how P's sinister electricity/railroad associations and battleship security jokes characterize sunny Hollywood/LA and easygoing Lew so differently from our (probable) preconceptions. Hollywood/LA is dangerous in itself. Prohibition: 1920 to 1933 in the United States Lew is now a typical hard-drinking PI. What does that do to our judgment of his perceptions? Misc. new movie, LA, 1928: http://www.variety.com/index.asp?layout=festivals&jump=review&id=2531&reviewid=VE1117937210 From monte.davis at verizon.net Sun Jul 20 11:45:45 2008 From: monte.davis at verizon.net (Monte Davis) Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2008 12:45:45 -0400 Subject: AtD (37) pp. 1040 ff Misc. Background and On Broadway In-Reply-To: <48835374.1030700@verizon.net> Message-ID: <653A5D22D9AF494EABB532D108515164@MSI1> Paul Mackin sez: > The state picnics are well done. Been to a number of them. I have only Texas, Maine, and mid-Atlantic picnics to go on, but the potato-salad paragraph on p. 1048 is pitch-perfect in both dialogue (OK, multiple mayonnaise monologues) and narration. It's up there with the best of Mamet or Elmore Leonard for American voice on the page. From markekohut at yahoo.com Sun Jul 20 12:20:29 2008 From: markekohut at yahoo.com (Mark Kohut) Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2008 10:20:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Atd (37) p. 1041. Erie Line, 'home', Lincolnwood, fascism and elm trees Message-ID: <453953.52785.qm@web38402.mail.mud.yahoo.com> P. 1041 Erie Line: Railroad from the East to Chicago. , the first Pullman car appeared on the Erie line in 1872. it went through my town, Jersey City, I learn. www.susquehannadepot.org/erieeffects.shtml Note this: The Erie and the DL&W were merged in 1960. line 2"remember ...home": how much of AtD is about being away from Home, homeless in a spiritual/psychological sense. Just about everybody, yes? Modernity's legacy. line 5"industrial security"...just a new descriptive phrase?, since White City Investigations if, like the Pinkertons, etc. has been involved in protecting business interests since the 19th century? line 6 "or just thinking about going out [on strike]" TRP's "1984" respect and influence... line 7 "ops now wearing two-tone brown uniforms"...BROWNSHIRTS?, totalitarian, fascist allusion? The Industrial Security Society was not founded until 1955, just fyi. Lincolnwood: Of course, the head of a Private Eye Company would retire to Lincolnwood. named after Abe Lincoln: During Prohibition, Tessville [original name] became a haven for speakeasies and gambling facilities. Tessville was long reputed for drinking and gambling until the 1931 election of its longest-serving mayor, Henry A. Proesel, a grandson of George Proesel, one of the original American settlers.[!!] In 1932, Lincoln Avenue, formerly a plank toll road, became a state highway. Proesel then worked with the federal government's Public Works Administration and hired the community's entire unemployed workforce to plant 10,000 elm trees on the village streets. Most important, the community passed a liquor license law (1934) that limited the number of licenses allowable within the city limits and became a model ordinance for other communities. Proesel finally changed Tessville's image when he renamed the village Lincolnwood in 1936. wikipedia. It is a rich Chicago suburb, made possible originally because of the railroad!...And, of course, the head of an Agency that spied on workers/people would retire to a community named after Abraham Lincoln! (And notice, TRP calls it Lincolnwood before it was.) (misc. I learned that Richard Powers went to high school here) TRP choosing THIS ONE COMMUNITY by name, when he could have chosen any of thousands, is one of those details that expands in my mind like a good drug---remember in 'Slow Learner" when he said he once used a word he really did not know and did not look up?........never again, it seems, never.......... From g.i.s.pursey at reading.ac.uk Sun Jul 20 11:57:13 2008 From: g.i.s.pursey at reading.ac.uk (Guy Ian Scott Pursey) Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2008 17:57:13 +0100 Subject: meta-something References: <22973169.1216229923621.JavaMail.root@mswamui-blood.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <007801c8e76d$7a164330$6e42c990$@com> <889AD64D-1D1E-4746-99BB-F132732D7CAC@mac.com> Message-ID: <0A9745774F2BF6409F9544231DCC266102AB20DA@vime1.rdg-home.ad.rdg.ac.uk> > "One thing I've noticed is that Pynchon generally respects the limits of metaphor so as not to dishonor the atrocities. He tends to steer a bit clear of dealing with historical genocides (Indian, Jewish, Armenian and so on)." Unlike, for example, Jonathan Safran Foer. Anyway, I guess what you're saying is mainly in reference to AtD, which I still haven't managed to forklift off my bookshelf... But I find myself nodding w/r/t the points you're making. Off the top of my head: the scene in M&D where Dixon takes on the slave-owner. As long as I have my memory, that'll stay with me. Is that an example of the kind of direct language you're talking about? Guy -----Original Message----- From: owner-pynchon-l at waste.org on behalf of Bekah Sent: Sat 7/19/2008 18:25 To: Pynchon Liste Subject: meta-something On Jul 16, 2008, at 10:57 AM, Henry wrote: > I turn to fiction because of the hubris of non-fiction's posing as > fact when, in fact, fact is in the arty-facts. Oh hello from days ago but this just won't get out of mind. I think I understand what you're saying and yes, the idea of meta-history seems always just under the surface in AtD. Pynchon may be very subtly stirring a wee bit of iron-y flavored meta-history into the mix , what with some ever so slightly skewed chronology and a smattering of curious omissions. However, and I think this is most evident in the Luddlow part, there are some "events" which are, even later, beyond metaphor. The memory has emotional impact. We are stirred when we first learn of it and say stuff like "where was that in the history books?" It was hidden between Manifest Destiny and WWI -in the part about "Give me your tired, your poor, your ignorant." No, Ludlow deserves the very clearest and most direct language we can offer because words become all we have. To do less would be to sweep the barbaric hubris of capitalist greed into some kind of dust- bin of "history is bunk." Yes, history from the top has its poses as does history from the bottom - nevertheless, we ought not throw the baby out with the bath water. Remember Catalonia and all that - as best we can. One thing I've noticed is that Pychon generally respects the limits of metaphor so as not to dishonor the atrocities. He tends to steer a bit clear of dealing with historical genocides (Indian, Jewish, Armenian and so on). That said, from the workers' pov he hit the Ludlow Massacre head on - metaphor or not (and was actually much pretty dry in that department) - because sometimes words are all we have. I wonder about the consistency of my position here but although I kinda, sorta, understand the ideas of Hayden White - there is, nevertheless, a time and place for the clearest language we have (metaphor or not, because it will speak for itself) so as not to forget the magnitude of human inhumanity. Bekah From markekohut at yahoo.com Sun Jul 20 12:56:30 2008 From: markekohut at yahoo.com (Mark Kohut) Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2008 10:56:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: AtD (37) p. 1041: toilets, money, shit, easy sex, the Hollywoodization of History? Message-ID: <998911.56434.qm@web38408.mail.mud.yahoo.com> line 16: "in the toilets of the wealthy".....Cf. that harmonica chasing in GR....and the sewers of V....... See upcoming toilet reading scene in this chapter. Cf. linkage, out of Norman O. Brown's "Life Against Death" surely, of money and shit. Hollywood is worse than Chicago! Sex is easy and no strings. See Alienist Ghloix on the p-wiki if necessary. Now, here in Hollywood, those lawfolk ''who worked both sides" could settle down with their all-American brides and turn their bad deeds into entertainment! See the future of such since. Pervasive. Shadow factories: great phrase for a motion picture production company, yes? What Jung's 'shadow' concept has come to in Hollywood America? Hollywoodization of history: "the wild ancient days ...turned into harmless packages of flickering entertainment." Lew never thought he'd see the day! Straight-seeing Lou thinking against the day. Miss Pomidore=Tomato From robinlandseadel at comcast.net Sun Jul 20 13:34:03 2008 From: robinlandseadel at comcast.net (robinlandseadel at comcast.net) Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2008 18:34:03 +0000 Subject: Atd (37) p. 1041. Erie Line, 'home', Lincolnwood, fascism and a pink tab Message-ID: <072020081834.9216.4883851B00056064000024002216554886040A0B0E0A9C0B020E0402070D019D@comcast.net> Page 1041 got a pink tab. . . . He knew the other lawfolk of his day, those who worked both sides till they forgot which they were on, who'd came to rank, some of them,among the baddest of the bad, now, their gray mustaches long shaved away, at peace on this western shore, were getting rich off of real-estate deals only slightly more legit than the the train robberies they used to depend on for revenue. . . . p. 1041 She thought of a hotel room in Mazatlan whose door had just been slammed, it seemed forever, waking up two hundred birds down in the lobby; a sunrise over the library slope at Cornell University that nobody out on it had seen because the slope faces west; a dry, disconsolate tune from the fourth movement of the Bartok Concerto for Orchestra; a whitewashed bust of Jay Gould that Pierce kept over the bed on a shelf so narrow for it she'd always had the hovering fear it would someday topple on them. Was that how he'd died, she wondered, among dreams, crushed by the only ikon in the house? That only made her laugh, out loud and helpless: You're so sick, Oedipa, she told herself, or the room, which knew. . . . CoL 49, first page Jay Gould ran the Erie Line, cited at the top of the page. Pynchon's technique frequently is based on associative relation---not logical or sequential but more like a parallel port, interleaving information and not always setting it down straight on the page. There is a conscious resonance with the Crying of Lot 49 here, a whiff of the eau de Robber Baron hybridized with the stank of train robbers, the two classes regarded as moral equals save for vast differences in the scale of their respective enterprises. I'm sure that out author is aware of his family history--one doesn't spend that much time checking out old newspapers* without allowing the eyes to catch whenever one finds their none-to-common family name in the New York Times or the Times of London. And OBA's moral ambiguity as regards these distant ancestors is all over Against the Day, the author showing us time and again how projects funded by the George M./Pynchon & Co. juggernaut both enhanced and damaged the world, Electric Lights, Radio and Rail Lines getting extra attention. *"Indeed, when annotating Gravity's Rainbow, one of my greatest surprises came with the discovery that details of story reveal a narrative chronometrics that can be concisely plotted. I mean detail of the most unobtrusive sort: images of the moon, remarks about weather, movies playing at London theaters, a song playing over the radio, references to BBC programs and newspaper headlines and saints' days. Many of these were available to Pynchon through one of his main sources, the Times of London. . . ." Steven C. Weisenburger: "A Gravity's Rainbow Companion, page 9. From igrlivingston at gmail.com Sun Jul 20 13:47:20 2008 From: igrlivingston at gmail.com (Ian Livingston) Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2008 11:47:20 -0700 Subject: AtD (37) p. 1041: toilets, money, shit, easy sex, the Hollywoodization of History? In-Reply-To: <998911.56434.qm@web38408.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <998911.56434.qm@web38408.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <95cde1ee0807201147n57017e0lc113d613b14e40c0@mail.gmail.com> Shadow factories: great phrase for a motion picture production company, yes? What Jung's 'shadow' concept has come to in Hollywood America? Yes, this is a perfect phrase for Hollywood, but I'd be more inclined to think of Plato here than Jung. These are shadows cast up against the wall of the cave, whereas the Jungian shadow has more to do with personality traits sublimated through denial and rejection of the content. There surely are links, though. The 'scandalous' behavior of actors on and off screen attracts ordinary folk most unreasonably. This could indeed be symptomatic of shadow elements: we are fascinated by that in others which we find most intolerable in ourselves. On Sun, Jul 20, 2008 at 10:56 AM, Mark Kohut wrote: > line 16: "in the toilets of the wealthy".....Cf. that harmonica chasing in > GR....and the sewers of V....... See upcoming toilet reading scene in this > chapter. Cf. linkage, out of Norman O. Brown's "Life Against Death" surely, > of money and shit. > > Hollywood is worse than Chicago! Sex is easy and no strings. See Alienist > Ghloix on the p-wiki > if necessary. > Now, here in Hollywood, those lawfolk ''who worked both sides" could settle > down with their all-American brides and turn their bad deeds into > entertainment! See the future of such since. Pervasive. > > > Shadow factories: great phrase for a motion picture production company, > yes? What Jung's 'shadow' concept has come to in Hollywood America? > > > > Hollywoodization of history: "the wild ancient days ...turned into harmless > packages of flickering entertainment." > > > > Lew never thought he'd see the day! Straight-seeing Lou thinking against > the day. > > > > Miss Pomidore=Tomato > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From markekohut at yahoo.com Sun Jul 20 14:11:01 2008 From: markekohut at yahoo.com (Mark Kohut) Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2008 12:11:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Atd (37) p. 1041. Erie Line, 'home', Lincolnwood, fascism and a pink tab In-Reply-To: <072020081834.9216.4883851B00056064000024002216554886040A0B0E0A9C0B020E0402070D019D@comcast.net> Message-ID: <301797.24537.qm@web38402.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Gould and Pierce V. and all the old railroad money in AtD.... VERY NICE...................... everything connects. --- On Sun, 7/20/08, robinlandseadel at comcast.net wrote: > From: robinlandseadel at comcast.net > Subject: Re: Atd (37) p. 1041. Erie Line, 'home', Lincolnwood, fascism and a pink tab > To: "P-list" > Date: Sunday, July 20, 2008, 2:34 PM > Page 1041 got a pink tab. . . . > > He knew the other lawfolk of his day, those who > worked both > sides till they forgot which they were on, > who'd came to rank, > some of them,among the baddest of the bad, now, > their gray > mustaches long shaved away, at peace on this > western shore, > were getting rich off of real-estate deals only > slightly more legit > than the the train robberies they used to depend > on for revenue. . . . > p. 1041 > > She thought of a hotel room in Mazatlan whose > door had just > been slammed, it seemed forever, waking up two > hundred birds > down in the lobby; a sunrise over the library > slope at Cornell > University that nobody out on it had seen because > the slope faces > west; a dry, disconsolate tune from the fourth > movement of the Bartok > Concerto for Orchestra; a whitewashed bust of Jay > Gould that Pierce > kept over the bed on a shelf so narrow for it > she'd always had the > hovering fear it would someday topple on them. > Was that how he'd > died, she wondered, among dreams, crushed by the > only ikon in the > house? That only made her laugh, out loud and > helpless: You're so > sick, Oedipa, she told herself, or the room, > which knew. . . . > CoL 49, first page > > Jay Gould ran the Erie Line, cited at the top of the page. > Pynchon's technique > frequently is based on associative relation---not logical > or sequential but more > like a parallel port, interleaving information and not > always setting it > down straight on the page. > > There is a conscious resonance with the Crying of Lot 49 > here, a whiff of the > eau de Robber Baron hybridized with the stank of train > robbers, the two > classes regarded as moral equals save for vast differences > in the scale > of their respective enterprises. > > I'm sure that out author is aware of his family > history--one doesn't spend that > much time checking out old newspapers* without allowing the > eyes to catch > whenever one finds their none-to-common family name in the > New York Times > or the Times of London. And OBA's moral ambiguity as > regards these distant > ancestors is all over Against the Day, the author showing > us time and again > how projects funded by the George M./Pynchon & Co. > juggernaut both > enhanced and damaged the world, Electric Lights, Radio and > Rail Lines > getting extra attention. > > *"Indeed, when annotating Gravity's Rainbow, one > of my greatest surprises > came with the discovery that details of story reveal a > narrative > chronometrics that can be concisely plotted. I mean detail > of the most > unobtrusive sort: images of the moon, remarks about > weather, movies > playing at London theaters, a song playing over the radio, > references to > BBC programs and newspaper headlines and saints' days. > Many of > these were available to Pynchon through one of his main > sources, the > Times of London. . . ." > Steven C. Weisenburger: "A Gravity's Rainbow > Companion, page 9. From markekohut at yahoo.com Sun Jul 20 14:13:31 2008 From: markekohut at yahoo.com (Mark Kohut) Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2008 12:13:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: AtD (37) p. 1041: toilets, money, shit, easy sex, the Hollywoodization of History? In-Reply-To: <95cde1ee0807201147n57017e0lc113d613b14e40c0@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <398539.6209.qm@web38408.mail.mud.yahoo.com> I (re)think you are surely right.....shadows on the wall..... 'magic lantern' as Bergman wrote............not reality but reflected images of................................. --- On Sun, 7/20/08, Ian Livingston wrote: > From: Ian Livingston > Subject: Re: AtD (37) p. 1041: toilets, money, shit, easy sex, the Hollywoodization of History? > To: markekohut at yahoo.com, "pynchon -l" > Date: Sunday, July 20, 2008, 2:47 PM > Shadow factories: great phrase for a motion picture > production company, yes? > What Jung's 'shadow' concept has come to in > Hollywood America? > > Yes, this is a perfect phrase for Hollywood, but I'd be > more inclined to > think of Plato here than Jung. These are shadows cast up > against the wall > of the cave, whereas the Jungian shadow has more to do with > personality > traits sublimated through denial and rejection of the > content. There surely > are links, though. The 'scandalous' behavior of > actors on and off screen > attracts ordinary folk most unreasonably. This could > indeed be symptomatic > of shadow elements: we are fascinated by that in others > which we find most > intolerable in ourselves. > > On Sun, Jul 20, 2008 at 10:56 AM, Mark Kohut > wrote: > > > line 16: "in the toilets of the > wealthy".....Cf. that harmonica chasing in > > GR....and the sewers of V....... See upcoming toilet > reading scene in this > > chapter. Cf. linkage, out of Norman O. Brown's > "Life Against Death" surely, > > of money and shit. > > > > Hollywood is worse than Chicago! Sex is easy and no > strings. See Alienist > > Ghloix on the p-wiki > > if necessary. > > Now, here in Hollywood, those lawfolk ''who > worked both sides" could settle > > down with their all-American brides and turn their bad > deeds into > > entertainment! See the future of such since. > Pervasive. > > > > > > Shadow factories: great phrase for a motion picture > production company, > > yes? What Jung's 'shadow' concept has come > to in Hollywood America? > > > > > > > > Hollywoodization of history: "the wild ancient > days ...turned into harmless > > packages of flickering entertainment." > > > > > > > > Lew never thought he'd see the day! > Straight-seeing Lou thinking against > > the day. > > > > > > > > Miss Pomidore=Tomato > > > > > > > > From markekohut at yahoo.com Sun Jul 20 14:14:56 2008 From: markekohut at yahoo.com (Mark Kohut) Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2008 12:14:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: AtD (37) p. 1041: toilets, money, shit, easy sex, the Hollywoodization of History? In-Reply-To: <95cde1ee0807201147n57017e0lc113d613b14e40c0@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <884288.91766.qm@web38404.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Ian Livingston wrote: There surely are links, though. The 'scandalous' behavior of actors on and off screen attracts ordinary folk most unreasonably. This could indeed be symptomatic of shadow elements: we are fascinated by that in others which we find most intolerable in ourselves. --- On Sun, 7/20/08, Ian Livingston wrote: > From: Ian Livingston > Subject: Re: AtD (37) p. 1041: toilets, money, shit, easy sex, the Hollywoodization of History? > To: markekohut at yahoo.com, "pynchon -l" > Date: Sunday, July 20, 2008, 2:47 PM > Shadow factories: great phrase for a motion picture > production company, yes? > What Jung's 'shadow' concept has come to in > Hollywood America? > > Yes, this is a perfect phrase for Hollywood, but I'd be > more inclined to > think of Plato here than Jung. These are shadows cast up > against the wall > of the cave, whereas the Jungian shadow has more to do with > personality > traits sublimated through denial and rejection of the > content. There surely > are links, though. The 'scandalous' behavior of > actors on and off screen > attracts ordinary folk most unreasonably. This could > indeed be symptomatic > of shadow elements: we are fascinated by that in others > which we find most > intolerable in ourselves. > > On Sun, Jul 20, 2008 at 10:56 AM, Mark Kohut > wrote: > > > line 16: "in the toilets of the > wealthy".....Cf. that harmonica chasing in > > GR....and the sewers of V....... See upcoming toilet > reading scene in this > > chapter. Cf. linkage, out of Norman O. Brown's > "Life Against Death" surely, > > of money and shit. > > > > Hollywood is worse than Chicago! Sex is easy and no > strings. See Alienist > > Ghloix on the p-wiki > > if necessary. > > Now, here in Hollywood, those lawfolk ''who > worked both sides" could settle > > down with their all-American brides and turn their bad > deeds into > > entertainment! See the future of such since. > Pervasive. > > > > > > Shadow factories: great phrase for a motion picture > production company, > > yes? What Jung's 'shadow' concept has come > to in Hollywood America? > > > > > > > > Hollywoodization of history: "the wild ancient > days ...turned into harmless > > packages of flickering entertainment." > > > > > > > > Lew never thought he'd see the day! > Straight-seeing Lou thinking against > > the day. > > > > > > > > Miss Pomidore=Tomato > > > > > > > > From robinlandseadel at comcast.net Sun Jul 20 14:41:07 2008 From: robinlandseadel at comcast.net (robinlandseadel at comcast.net) Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2008 19:41:07 +0000 Subject: Atd (37) p. 1041. Erie Line, 'home', Lincolnwood, fascism and a pink tab Message-ID: <072020081941.9117.488394D30004DCB70000239D2215586394040A0B0E0A9C0B020E0402070D019D@comcast.net> He who shall not be named waxed curious as regards Pynchon's potential interest in his family history. There is nothing like a black/white reductionism here, but an awareness of his family's contributions, both pro and con, a part of the greater narrative of the rise of American Empire. The author persues revisionist histories of those businesses that Pynchon & Co. had a hand in during their "Day." It seems like many family secrets are buried in Crying of Lot 49, the allusions to the W.A.S.T. E. laws of land management pointing to Pynchon v. Stearns, a landmark case on property management that managed to connect by family history to T.S. Eliot and The Wasteland. Pynchon, being fully aware of his family involvement in the development of the modern world of espionage tracks the emergence of Pinkerton, something developing right along and with the primary investments of Pynchon & Co. during the "Day." These spy networks were particularly on Pynchon's mind while writing Gravity's Rainbow. One sees how fully OBA must have been possessed by the ghost of Richard Farina. From markekohut at yahoo.com Sun Jul 20 15:01:43 2008 From: markekohut at yahoo.com (Mark Kohut) Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2008 13:01:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: AtD (37) p.1042 'movie-themes, emigres, Le Street, Vertex Club' Message-ID: <412713.38617.qm@web38408.mail.mud.yahoo.com> P. 1042 " Erno Rapee movie-theme book" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erno_Rapee... ..Another emigre from Eastern Europe........remember Bela Somebody from Lugos?(who became Bela Lugosi of course......what is the connection between Pynchon focussing so much story out of there and then emigres turning up later, in music, Hollywood, etc.?(we can remember how much of early Hollywood was built by such immigrants.) Chester Le Street. Chester of the street. [and: "le" and "the", both being articles, bear as little significance as possible, and so are "unsubstantial" and virtually invisible--from "Finnegans Wake" commentary] Cf. Compare all the human things that happen on "the streets" in AtD. Cf. street fairs all over the world? Remember when Kit and Dally "do it in the street"? Streets are where anarchists play? (writer\ named seed says 'the street' is threatening in early--thru GR--TRP?) ["the ghost bikes are like a quiet and respectful aspect of the old Reclaim the Streets initiatives - except they proceed from the premise that the streets do not need to be reclaimed by confrontation, that they are already ours." Geoff Dyer, Guardian, May 16. Real life happens there, usually.] ["Such a vision of the street As the street hardly understands;" ----T.S. Eliot] Vertex Club: The vertex is the intersection of two lines of an angle, the zero point on a graph/grid. Recalls the V-Note in V..(which leads me to THIS thought about "V.", the symbol: Is a major part of its symbolic meaning the way the lines diverge? As History diverged from a 'good zero point'?....I think this cause it would seem that the V-Note and the Vertex Club would be positive places in Pynchon's associations. Where the lines start, so to speak?) From markekohut at yahoo.com Sun Jul 20 17:39:56 2008 From: markekohut at yahoo.com (Mark Kohut) Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2008 15:39:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: AtD (37) p.1042 on the Syncopated Strangler, incarnation and maracas Message-ID: <379713.12918.qm@web38403.mail.mud.yahoo.com> "Mezzanine Perkins!", the girls practicing shocked gasps. (Remind any others of some of the 'girls' in M & D?) Does anyone know how far back that line, "once you've had black, etc.' goes? Santa Barbara, more coming up, Lew Archer's usual stomping ground and one of the noir detective tropes; dead woman shows up alive, maybe? "Laura" maybe the most famous movie using the notion? Syncopated Strangler case. Not real, it seems, but the Eagles have a song: "The Disco Strangler--A distinctive guitar lick opens this one. The song sounds a little rhythmically confused, with the drums, guitar, bass and vocals all seemingly disjointed, but it all finally fits together. Don Henley provides the lead vocals in this song about meeting the wrong person in a nightclub." Encarnacion means incarnation in Spanish. Seems to be a popular-enough name. (3 major league ballplayers have had it). Metaphoric for Hollywood? and certainly for Pynchon here. Misc. way-out notion: The American democratic experience has been called by some, the American Incarnation. Is Hollywood, daylit (and darkroom) fiction, what America has become, is becoming, instead of a good incarnation? Misc. a much later movie with echoes: "Encarnacion (or Ernie) is an aging actress (her 10 minutes of fame are over and consisted of a movie and some work as main dancer in music hall). As many old actresses; is obviously fighting against age however she is not stupid and knows her limits. She manages to survive doing commercials or publicity while looking for the occasional job in movies or TV attending premieres, keeping in touch with the industry or setting up a web page with her bio." Maraca: One of what come in pairs, maracas..gourd with beans or such shaken in music...also, a species of tarantula. also, 60s Calif slang for boob(s) From kelber at mindspring.com Sun Jul 20 18:10:10 2008 From: kelber at mindspring.com (kelber at mindspring.com) Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2008 19:10:10 -0400 (GMT-04:00) Subject: ATDTDA: (36) pgs 1030-1038 Message-ID: <24266490.1216595411677.JavaMail.root@elwamui-milano.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Bekah, My computer's been having a meltdown and seemed to freeze (mixed metaphor) every time I tried to respond to any of your posts, so if this one gets through, just wanted to thank you for the double hosting you undertook. Laura -----Original Message----- >From: Bekah >Sent: Jul 15, 2008 10:18 PM >To: P-list >Subject: ATDTDA: (36) pgs 1030-1038 > >And on to the Ætheronauts, light/dark and moving pictures > > > >**************** >page 1030 > >* Sodality of Ætheronauts >A sodality is a society; the ætheronauts use the æther as their >medium of flight via mechanical wings - they are religious novices. >The Chums figure they were destined to have families but the girls >could never really go to earth so they nested on the city rooftops > >* nitronaphthol - engine fuel >* chaffinch a pretty little bird > >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaffinch > >**************** >Page 1030 > >The girls' names are: > >* Heartsease - a flower - Viola tricolor - which has the medicinal >quality of lifting the spirits, i.e., "Mends a broken heart" - she >pairs up with Randolph > >* Primula - the Primrose (Primula vulgaris) has the medicinal quality >of inducing sleep and she pairs up with Miles > >* Viridian, from the Latin for "green," and she's definitely "green", >as demonstrated by this scolding of Chick Counterfly: "Fumes are not >the future," >pairs up with Chick > >* Blaze, "Burning dead dinosaurs and whatever they ate ain't the >answer, Crankshaft Boy." >pairs up with Darby >"each had found her way to this Ætherist sorority through the >mysteries of" - ta-da, ta-da... "inconvenience..." (lower case) >such as a missed train or great waves of wind, light saturation > >****************** > >page 1031 > >(what is this - a bunch of science stuff I have no comprehension of) > > >Like Sidney and Beatrice Webb around here." - British socialists of >the day. >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beatrice_Webb > >The Chums flew northwest and found the City of our Lady - Queen of >the Angels - >Los Angeles was founded in 1781 as "Pueblo de Nuestra Señora la Reina >de los Ángeles." >Reina = Queen, fairly common female name in Spanish > >"... where on earth is this - that's sort of the problem - the on >earth part." Indicating that this likely is the counter earth, >although I don't know why this couldn't be the real earth and the >other one was the counter earth. How could one tell? > > > >And the coming darkness cast by the light: > >And in Southern California light is flooding forth form suburban >homes and so on - factory sky-lights - athletic fields, city plazas, >automobile lights - > >"... they felt themselves an uneasy witness to some final conquest, a >triumph over night whose motive none could quite grasp." > > >**************** >Page 1033 > >Light seems to have won over darkness, but that's not necessarily >good news as there are side effects to the conquest of darkness: >Labor now works overtime and xtra work-shifts? >But there is additional employment - further expansion - > >The Chums debate briefly: >"Yup groundhog sweat misery and early graves." >more investment in these things and ... > >"I am as fond of the subjunctive mood as any." >"fuck you," = "Long live capitalism" > > >Darkness from the light: >Miles: "Lucifer - son of the morning - bearer of light - Prince of >Evil >http://www.dpjs.co.uk/lucifer.html > >Isaiah's epithet for the King of Babylon with Christ's vision - >according t o Luke, of Satan falling like lighting from heaven. >http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=luke%2010:18-10:18&version=9 >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucifer >Satan - etc. > > >But their "paycheck" bounces so our boys are in California without >evident means of support > >**************** > >Page 1034 > >At a Hollywood hot dog stand called "Links" (like the very real >Pinks of Hollywood?) ... >http://www.pinkshollywood.com/pgz/history.htm >(but Pinks opened in 1940 or so - ) > > > Chick Counterfly runs into his father, Dick who drives a Packard >and lives in a Beaux Arts mansion on West Adams with his 3rd wife, >Treacle (dark and syrupy sweet - will probably rot your teeth). > >1914 Packard - >http://www.autogallery.org.ru/k/p/14pacmodel238touring_HMN.jpg > >Beaux Arts mansion >http://architecture.about.com/od/periodsstyles/ig/House-Styles/Beaux- >Arts.htm > >West Adams, LA >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Adams,_Los_Angeles,_California >A large area of now historic homes in LA. > >"The West Adams area was developed between 1880 and 1925, and >contains many diverse architectural styles of the era. Architectural >styles seen in West Adams include the Queen Anne, Shingle, Gothic >Revival, Transitional Arts and Crafts, American Craftsman/Ultimate >Bungalow, Craftsman Bungalow, Colonial Revival, Renaissance Revival, >Mediterranean Revival, Spanish Colonial Revival, Mission Revival, >Egyptian Revival, Beaux-Arts and Neoclassical styles. West Adams >boasts the only Greene and Greene house in Los Angeles. Its historic >homes are frequently used as locations for movies and TV shows >including CSI, Six Feet Under, The Shield, Monk, Confessions of a >Dangerous Mind and Of Mice and Men." > >Dick shows off his machinery - a big spinning disk - Nipkow scanner >1884 which was invented by Paul Nipkow in 1884 and used for very >early stages of television. Although capable of high-speed scanning, >conventional Nipkow disks failed to provide enough amounts of light >to image fluorescence from live cells. > >http://www.yokogawa.com/scanner/products/csu10e.htm > >http://www.diycalculator.com/popup-h-console.shtml#A3 > >They apparently access Gilligan's Island what with the sailor-hatted >monkey (Dobey Gillis), the palm tree and the Skipper showing up on >the screen. Dick says he picks this one up every week. > >**************** > >Page 1035 > >Chick and Dick go to meet Merle Rideout and Roswell Bounce at the Van >Nuys balloon field. Roswell is paranoid > >**************** >Page 1036 >Oxone . . . Blattnerphone components > >Oxone - a type of oxidizer > >The Blattnerphone recorder http://www.collectionscanada.gc.ca/ >gramophone/m2-3021.3-e.html > > > >Fleming valve > >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fleming_valve > >Lee De Forest added that grid electrode to the Fleming valve >The Fleming valve--named for British electrical engineer Sir John >Ambrose Fleming (1849–1945)--was an early form of diode (a vacuum >tube in which electrons flow in one direction, from a heated filament >to a plate). In 1907, De Forest (AtD, p. 29) created the triode out >of the diode by inserting a curved mesh grid, whose voltage could be >varied, between the filament and the plate. > >output . . . can be the indefinite integral of any signal > >Long discussion mostly removed to the Discussion page on Jan. 23, 2008 >This is in fact an elegant mathematical, or, better, 'pataphysical, >expression of the phenomenon of looking at a single photograph and >imagining it as part of a movie (which is after all just a sequence >of still photographs), or of many possible movies--the movie is the >integral of the photograph. This is techno-mathematical nonsense of a >very particular kind: an example of 'Pataphysics [5], which its >originator, the absurdist novelist and playwright Alfred Jarry [6] >(1873-1907) defined as "The science of imaginary solutions". His >fictional creation Dr. Faustroll explains that 'Pataphysics deals >with "the laws which govern exceptions and will explain the universe >supplementary to this one". One can imagine any number of possible >"movies" or world-lines, for the subject of a photograph, any number >of alternate histories and supplementary universes. > >paranoia querelans >Misspelling of querulans. This page describes the disorder. > > >They've got the theory now to find the analogies >but Roswell is paranoid - querelans > >they accumulate stuff not knowing what to do with it but sure enough >- they find something - > >photo of downtown LA - Merle rocked the carbons - took from the >cabinet a brilliant red crystal - Lorandite - from Macedonia before >the Balkan wars - pure thallium arsenosulphide - > > >Merle [...] took from a wall safe a brilliant red crystal, brought it >over to a platinoid housing and carefully slid it into place. >"Lorandite — brought out of Macedonia before the Balkan Wars, pure >thallium arsenosulfide, purer quality than you can find anymore." > >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lorandite >* Lorandite is a thallium arsenic sulfosalt with formula: TlAsS2. It >was first discovered at Alshar, Republic of Macedonia in 1894 and >named after Loránd Eötvös, physicist at the University of Budapest. >The lorandite is thought to have the potential to unravel the so- >called "neutrino puzzle." By serving as a geochemical detector of the >neuron, the lorandite could validate or disprove the theory of the >standard solar system, say physicists. In simple terms—it would let >us understand the work of the Sun. > >http://tw.strahlen.org/fotoatlas1/lorandite_foto.html > > > >* Thallium - a form of poison > >http://drnickonline.blogspot.com/2006/11/thallium-poisoning- >everything-russian.html > > > >* Iron arsenosulfide is the most common ore of arsenic. It is found >in Mexico (Mapimí), Sweden (Tunaberg) and the U.S. (Montana). > >According to Risto Karajkov writing in "World Press": > > > >** > >Moving pictures: > >"They bring the still life to action - then many others of American >lives unquestionably in motion - effect was of a small city in frames > >He was on a mission to set free the images not just the photographs >but also of all that came his way - prince who with his kiss releases >that Sleeping Beauty into wakefulness. > >******************** > >Page 1038 >"old gaffers" >A gaffer in the motion picture industry is the head of the electrical >department, responsible for the execution (and sometimes the design) >of the lighting plan for a production. In British English the term >gaffer is long established as meaning an old man, or the foreman of a >squad of workmen. (In U.S. English, similarly, "Pappy" is a nickname >for the leader of such a group—like Pappy Hod in V..) > >The term was also used to describe men who adjusted lighting in >English theatre and men who tended street lamps, after the "gaff" >they used, a pole with a hook on its end [7]. > >One seller of gaffer's tape (used in theater and film) says the >"gaff" story is incorrect, but it isn't clear this is correct, >because long poles called "hi-tech focusing aids" are definitely >still used in theater. > >The "old man" meaning comes from a dialectal pronunciation of >"grandfather." Roswell and Merle are gaffers (old men / >electricians/old men). > > >****** >Bekah >and over to Mark - > > > > > > > From kelber at mindspring.com Sun Jul 20 19:25:06 2008 From: kelber at mindspring.com (kelber at mindspring.com) Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2008 20:25:06 -0400 (GMT-04:00) Subject: AtD (37) pp.1040 ff. Thoughts on Lew Basnight, detective. Message-ID: <32402051.1216599907547.JavaMail.root@elwamui-wigeon.atl.sa.earthlink.net> At this point, we're in LA in the film era. This segment feels different than the other Lew Basnight segments. The others my have been in the Detective Fiction genre, but this one's solidly in the film noir genre (by way of Hammett's and Channdler's crime fiction). Laura -----Original Message----- >From: Mark Kohut >Sent: Jul 20, 2008 10:40 AM >To: robinlandseadel at comcast.net >Cc: pynchon -l >Subject: Re: AtD (37) pp.1040 ff. Thoughts on Lew Basnight, detective. > >I vote for more Lew Archer resonances in Lew [!] Basnight than the others, >although of course, all of them resonate ala Pynchon's shimmering, layered way. > >Lew Archer because of 1) the name 2) the 'sensitive' detective 3) his mystery solutions are Freudian family dramas, Oedipal in many instances. >4) Very hot--reviewed on front page on NY Times by Eudora Welty when OBA >was inhaling many of his intellectual sources. > > >--- On Sun, 7/20/08, robinlandseadel at comcast.net wrote: > >> From: robinlandseadel at comcast.net >> Subject: Re: AtD (37) pp.1040 ff. Thoughts on Lew Basnight, detective. >> To: "P-list" >> Date: Sunday, July 20, 2008, 10:12 AM >> Against the Day is a meta-fiction, a fiction concerned with >> fictions. >> There are many parodies of genres that first saw the light >> of day >> in the era of Against the Day. The Crime Novel or Mystery >> is a >> genre that blossomed during the era of Against the Day, >> Sherlock >> Holmes being but the most obvious example. Dashiell >> Hammett, >> an ex-Pinkerton, is more of the Hard-boiled Dick found in >> the >> States and closer to the mark for Lew. And of course, >> don't >> forget the previously cited Lew Archer: >> >> Profile >> >> Initially, Lew Archer was similar to (if not >> completely derivative >> of) Philip Marlowe. However, he eventually broke >> from that >> mold, though some similarities remain. >> Archer's principal >> difference is that he is much more openly >> sensitive and >> empathetic than the tough Marlowe. He also serves >> a >> different function than Marlowe. Raymond >> Chandler's books >> were studies of Marlowe's character and code >> of honor, while >> Macdonald used Archer as a lens to explore the >> relationships of >> the other characters in the novels. >> >> Archer's name is an homage to Dashiell >> Hammett: "Miles >> Archer" was the name of Sam Spade's >> murdered partner in >> The Maltese Falcon. >> >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lew_Archer >> >> I keep turning back to The Crying of Lot 49 as something of >> a coda >> for Against the Day, Oedipa looking backwards at the >> detritus of a >> scene that manages to continue in darkness, a scene >> displayed >> in full daylight in AtD. Raymond Chandler's sense of >> place and the crude >> mechanics of local political power infuse The Crying of Lot >> 49. In AtD the >> character of Lew ties together the central thread of the >> story---Scarsdale >> Vibe's "hit" on Webb and the family's >> response to to Webb's execution. >> The loose ends of that story are all tied up thanks to some >> smooth >> teamwork between the psychic detective and the alchemical >> photographer. > > > From markekohut at yahoo.com Sun Jul 20 19:39:08 2008 From: markekohut at yahoo.com (Mark Kohut) Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2008 17:39:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: AtD (37) p.1043 "the ole RJ, earthquake, Santa Barbara, right angles of History Message-ID: <550336.27923.qm@web38405.mail.mud.yahoo.com> P. 1043 Royal Jacaranda: http://www.pensandcalls.com/id144.htm............. Earthquake, June 29, 1925: http://projects.crustal.ucsb.edu/sb_eqs/1925/1925.html that 'stucco and beam philosophy" of architecture--see the link for Official name, Mission style, lead to Santa Barbara's rep as a great tourist center. "relentlessly unacknowledged past" [of Santa Barbara]: "Santa Barbara became the winter destination for the titans of post-Civil War America. Private railroad cars clustered on the sidings at Santa Barbara. The Potter Hotel overlooking Santa Barbara's West Beach was a world renowned resort. Owners of industry visited Santa Barbara and chose Santa Barbara hillside locations for their grand estates." wikipedia "right-angled piece of local coastline" [check it out on a map. I had no idea] Right angles are one of Pynchon's tropes in AtD that link--and lead-- to the "rationalization" [ala Weber] of modernity and, yes, death. Related to Cartesian grids and linear thought. See the first important use on page 10. "that unshaped freedom being rationalized...into straight lines and right angles...that lead to the killing floor". There are other instances. (anyone remember any?). (There is a 'safe right-angle" use in GR, I relearn) There is a very important use coming up that puts an Icelandic Spar ending on AtD, if I am seeing clearly. Next sentence is a deep clue, somehow, I think, to this meaning: 'This angle was the worst of all possible aspects....condemning to "endless cycles of greed and betrayal"'.........Such an angle, such 'rationalization' is modern Western History? Here is the cycle motif, mostly in the historical senses (not the Jungian nor Buddhist) as a philosophy of History, I suggest. From dpayne1912 at hotmail.com Sun Jul 20 23:44:17 2008 From: dpayne1912 at hotmail.com (David Payne) Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2008 04:44:17 +0000 Subject: Atd (37) p. 1041. Erie Line, 'home', Lincolnwood, fascism and a pink tab In-Reply-To: <072020081834.9216.4883851B00056064000024002216554886040A0B0E0A9C0B020E0402070D019D@comcast.net> References: <072020081834.9216.4883851B00056064000024002216554886040A0B0E0A9C0B020E0402070D019D@comcast.net> Message-ID: On , Sun, 20 Jul 2008 (18:34:03 +0000), Robin (robinlandseadel at comcast.net) wrote: > *"Indeed, when annotating Gravity's Rainbow, one of my greatest surprises > came with the discovery that details of story reveal a narrative > chronometrics that can be concisely plotted. I mean detail of the most > unobtrusive sort: images of the moon, remarks about weather, movies > playing at London theaters, a song playing over the radio, references to > BBC programs and newspaper headlines and saints' days. Many of > these were available to Pynchon through one of his main sources, the > Times of London. . . ." > Steven C. Weisenburger: "A Gravity's Rainbow Companion, page 9. If you haven't read Foreman’s “Historical Documents Relating to Mason & Dixon” (2005), you should. _________________________________________________________________ Keep your kids safer online with Windows Live Family Safety. http://www.windowslive.com/family_safety/overview.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_family_safety_072008 From isread at btinternet.com Mon Jul 21 01:09:53 2008 From: isread at btinternet.com (Paul Nightingale) Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2008 07:09:53 +0100 Subject: Atdtda28: There may not be a 'mission' anymore, 786-787 Message-ID: <000001c8eaf8$647705d0$2d651170$@com> Prance continues to offer the voice of authority, explaining Ssagan's departure and then borbanngadyr. A transition takes place with Prance's subsequent embarrassment. He has decided to stay, presumably when Kit moves on alone, and insists "[t]his is the heart of Earth". Kit's response ("all's I see's a bunch of sheep") might or might not be taken as argumentative; and then he offers "that time back in the woods" as elaboration of "our differences". At the beginning of 55.8 Prance has just been shot at, again (783); here, we discover that Kit, accidentally or otherwise has shot at him (786). The earlier passage suggests that locals think Prance a Japanese spy; there is no indication there of Kit's involvement in shooting incidents, so we might infer other disagreements. Or "differences": the term used here is significant, given that the double act is one that builds character on reaction and a conflict over readings. Until, as the section concludes, and with it the relationship between Kit and Prance: for once the dialogue exchange is one that features complementary statements as they discuss parting (787). The writing of character-as-traveller here perhaps echoes Mason/Dixon, as does the subsequent reference to those to whom the traveller must report back. That Kit/Prance are out in the middle of nowhere ("another part of the taiga" on 782; "a strangely tranquil part of Siberia" on 786) is confirmed by the shadow of imperialism: what should happen ("[o]rdinarily", 787) is that a report would have to be written, one that normalised relations between metropolitan centre and wherever influence extended. The traveller-as-tourist? From isread at btinternet.com Mon Jul 21 02:00:08 2008 From: isread at btinternet.com (Paul Nightingale) Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2008 08:00:08 +0100 Subject: Atdtda28: Guardian deities, 787 Message-ID: <000101c8eaff$69c3d160$3d4b7420$@com> >From Prance's pov the Chums appear as "animated youngsters". The first time Randolph ventures away from the Inconvenience to visit Nate Privett, the "young lady typewriter" refers to him as "sonny" and "kid" (24). A realist reading might well insist that 'fifteen years' have 'passed' since the novel opened. Prance himself has been described as "young" (783); and here Darby refers to him as "Kid ..." (787). What we are offered here are first impressions; and Prance automatically assumes the Chums might be "guardian deities" (787). They in turn are said to "[regard] him with great curiosity": this is a reading of them from his pov, one that Darby's response will then go some way to undermine. Earlier sections in this chapter introduced us to the crew of the Bol'shaia Igra (779-782); such writing necessarily drew attention to the Russian airship's similarities/differences to the Inconvenience. Having recalled the Chums, then, the narrative produces them; they replace both the Russians and, for Prance himself, Kit. Prance continues to speak as an authority ("According to the classical Tibetan sources ...", 787). The previous section draws attention to "that time back in the woods there" (786); and here we find "Darby looking around in some distraction, as if for a firearm" (787). From ottosell at googlemail.com Mon Jul 21 03:58:13 2008 From: ottosell at googlemail.com (Otto) Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2008 10:58:13 +0200 Subject: EST Message-ID: Esbjörn Svensson Trio - Dodge the Dodo(Live)(Part 1/2) http://de.youtube.com/watch?v=iB9mjSrdyl8 part 2: http://de.youtube.com/watch?v=SbL5qCVrbCE From ottosell at googlemail.com Mon Jul 21 04:14:29 2008 From: ottosell at googlemail.com (Otto) Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2008 11:14:29 +0200 Subject: Trek, Zone, Peaks In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Is it only open to US-viewers? "This content is currently unavailable." 2008/7/20, Dave Monroe : > http://www.cbs.com/classics/star_trek/ > > http://www.cbs.com/classics/the_twilight_zone/ > > http://www.cbs.com/classics/twin_peaks/ > From against.the.dave at gmail.com Mon Jul 21 04:17:55 2008 From: against.the.dave at gmail.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2008 04:17:55 -0500 Subject: Trek, Zone, Peaks In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Jul 21, 2008 at 4:14 AM, Otto wrote: > Is it only open to US-viewers? > > "This content is currently unavailable." Seeing as we were just poking around the various series there (see also MacGyver, The Love Boat, Have Gun Will Travel, Hawaii 5-0, et al.), that may unfortunately be the case. Anywone know if thre's any way around that? To be an online virtual American? If I can help ... From against.the.dave at gmail.com Mon Jul 21 05:15:20 2008 From: against.the.dave at gmail.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2008 05:15:20 -0500 Subject: Fast Learner Message-ID: Herman, Luc. Krafft, John M. Fast Learner: The Typescript of Pynchon's V. at the Harry Ransom Center in Austin Texas Studies in Literature and Language - Volume 49, Number 1, Spring 2007, pp. 1-20 http://muse.jhu.edu/login?uri=/journals/texas_studies_in_literature_and_language/v049/49.1herman.html A corrected typescript of V., the first novel of Thomas Pynchon (b. 1937), containing one hundred excised pages, is accompanied by eight rare personal letters from a young Pynchon to two close friends in the 1960s. The archive also contains early notes, outlines, and drafts for an unproduced musical, "Minstrel Island," on which Pynchon and J. Kirkpatrick Sale collaborated in the spring of 1958. http://www.hrc.utexas.edu/collections/guide/literature/ From robinlandseadel at comcast.net Mon Jul 21 05:17:43 2008 From: robinlandseadel at comcast.net (robinlandseadel at comcast.net) Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2008 10:17:43 +0000 Subject: Atd (37) p. 1041. Erie Line, 'home', Lincolnwood, fascism and a pink tab Message-ID: <072120081017.29783.4884624700094C35000074572215575114040A0B0E0A9C0B020E0402070D019D@comcast.net> David Payne: If you haven't read Foreman�s �Historical Documents Relating to Mason & Dixon� (2005), you should. I'd love to, but access is limited---how do people get away with these insane prices for "Pynchon Industry" books anyway? My own little excursions traversing the web delivered "The Diary of William Pynchon of Salem: A Picture of Salem Life, Social and ... " by William Pynchon, born some generations later than the William Pynchon/Slothrop of Meritorious Price/On Preterition fame. http://tinyurl.com/6a5x2j Jumping into William Pynchon [of Salem]'s diary, one clearly scryes a primary source of inspiration for Mason & Dixon. George M. Pynchon's Meritorious exploits as Captain of the Istalena are set down in the lead sporting articles that the New York Times published during the years explored in Against the Day. These puff- pieces left their mark on Against the Day. The voice of the narrator of the Chums of Chance episodes shares a number of narratorial quirks with the NYT authors/editors. The adventures of Pynch-co. are in the background nearly constantly in Against the Day�this is notable in the particular focus on the sorts of holdings Pynchon & Company invested in: Electric Lights, Railways, Radio, Sound on Film and other technologically driven enterprises. All these things left their mark on the writing much as the Times of London left its mark on Gravity's Rainbow. http://tinyurl.com/6cdadk From against.the.dave at gmail.com Mon Jul 21 05:23:10 2008 From: against.the.dave at gmail.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2008 05:23:10 -0500 Subject: For the Love of Big Brother Message-ID: BOOKS By Jim Knipfel For the Love of Big Brother Orwell turns 100. In the wake of WWII, George Orwell is said to have handed over the names of several potential communist sympathizers to the British government. This dirty little secret, first revealed several years ago, raised a bit of a shitstorm in certain intellectual circles. How could a man whose work condemned such behavior in no uncertain terms have become such a willing tool? In his introduction to John Reed's anti-Orwell Animal Farm satire, Snowball's Chance, Alexander Cockburn argued that Orwell had been not only a rat, but a fascist at heart. In Why Orwell Matters, Christopher Hitchens rejected such claims, saying that Orwell was an adamant anti-Stalinist and hated totalitarianism in any form. (The controversy was covered in some detail by John Strausbaugh in these pages last year.) Be all that as it may, there's not going to be any getting rid of Orwell, rat or not, anytime soon, nor should there be. No matter how many dozens of articles argue this way or that in the political magazines, nothing is going to change the fact that George Orwell (who would have turned 100 this year) has become a solid and unshakeable part of the culture, primarily on the virtues of two little books: his cautionary fable, Animal Farm, and his grim masterpiece of quiet personal rebellion, 1984. The latter especially, the strength and significance of which has been driven home all too well these past 20 months, as the march toward "homeland security" has left headline writers scrambling for references that aren't in some fashion Orwellian. I'm assuming that we're all familiar enough with at least the gist of the book. That in itself creates an interesting problem for publishers who are trying to sell yet another edition of Orwell's dusty dystopian classic. Apart from junior high kids who are going to be forced to read it, how do you get regular folks to pick it up? How to make a book that has become so cliche seem fresh and interesting again? And how do you sell a new edition when there are already a dozen editions of the book on the shelves (and online)? Well, first thing the folks at Plume did was repackage a beautiful "new" edition, which reproduces the original 1949 cover art and flap copy ("Though the story of Nineteen Eighty-Four takes place thirty-five years hence..."). Another way to catch people's attention, the editors figured, is to commission a new foreword by someone who might have some special, unique insight into what Orwell envisioned. For the centennial edition of Animal Farm, for instance (which received a similar repackaging), they hired Ann Patchett, author of Bel Canto and The Magician's Assistant. But who would be right for 1984? Someone, maybe, who might feel a special bond with Winston Smith. Or O'Brien or Goldstein or Big Brother himself. Even Tillotson (you never hear enough about him). If it turns out to be an author who writes like no one ever has before—or ever will—then you've got a double bonus. People will pick up the dusty old novel not for the dusty old novel, but for the secret prize hidden inside, like the toy balloon gondolas and plastic cavemen that used to lie buried at the bottom of boxes of Fruity Pebbles. I never liked Fruity Pebbles much, but those gondolas were the best. Plume couldn't have done better than to snag Thomas Pynchon. While we all, in some way, have a stake in the implications of Orwell's novel, I have to believe that Mr. Pynchon's stake is a bit bigger. Much as Orwell "foresaw" a world of electronic surveillance, falsified history and sham wars, Pynchon's own writings (intentionally or not) have had a prescient quality of their own, envisioning everything from the internet to the convergence of computer technology, artificial intelligence and genetic research, which he presaged in his 1984 essay, "Is It O.K. to be a Luddite?". Pynchon is also, it goes without saying, well-versed in the mechanics of paranoia and conspiracy. Here, in his first extended bit of published writing since his introduction to Jim Dodge's 1997 novel Stone Junction (an essay which also had quite a bit to say on matters Orwellian), Pynchon employs a language that's simple and straightforward, yet plays with ideas that are (unsurprisingly) subtle. In the end, he's produced the most insightful—and playful—analysis of the novel I've ever read. Pynchon weaves elements of Orwell's biography together with various political and historical events of his day (and our own) to explain not only what's going on in 1984, but why, and where it came from. At the same time, he deals with the above-mentioned "snitch" controversy (without saying as much), dismisses other controversies (like recent claims that Orwell was an anti-Semite) and demolishes several overly simplistic readings of the novel. 1984, he explains, is much more than a point-by-point critique of Stalinism. Sure, Big Brother is clearly Stalin and Goldstein clearly Trotsky, but beyond and beneath that it's a reflection of Orwell's own unease concerning the political moves being made by the Allied nations in the aftermath of WWII. He also derides (but with good humor) those who would read 1984 as a collection of "predictions" about the world in which we're living. There's a difference, Pynchon writes, between prediction and prophecy, and Orwell wasn't making predictions so much as he was looking deeper into the human soul and projecting where the behavior he was witnessing in the seats of power would lead us, should it continue unchecked. He does pause briefly at a couple of points to draw parallels between 1984 and 2003—the use of doublethink by modern-day politicians and media outlets, for instance. He even brings up parallels which aren't usually brought up: the similarity between Oceania's Ministries and our own Department of Defense (which wages war) and Department of Justice (which regularly stomps on human and constitutional rights). Early in the essay, he even hints (again without saying as much) at the events of September 2001 and the effect such events usually have on the political outlook of a nation. An attack on one's own homeland can suddenly transform peace activists into dangerous subversives in the minds of most citizens. It was something Orwell witnessed during the Blitz, and something we've witnessed over the past year and a half. As with most everything he writes, Mr. Pynchon's essay flows easily through a remarkable range of topics—technology, historical precedent, Orwell's situation and our own, the cuts the Book of the Month Club wanted to make before releasing the novel, various characters and the roles they play—and how fictional characters can develop the nasty habit of doing things the novelist himself never expected. He even hints in the closing paragraphs that 1984 ends on a note perhaps a bit brighter than most of us realize. As always, it's a delightful little ride and, all told, it's less an introduction to the novel than it is a commentary written for readers already well familiar with it. That's an important thing. Because the real reason to pick up 1984 and read it (or reread it) now has nothing to do with any parallels to our own time, or any big smarty-pants controversy. The real reason to read the novel is because it's such a fucking great novel. I hadn't read it in over two decades (it was one of my favorites as a kid). Going back to it now (admittedly via audiotape), I was astonished at the savage clarity of Orwell's prose, his brilliant language-play, his eye for necessary detail, the depth and complexity of his characters and, above all, his skills as a storyteller. When most people think of 1984 nowadays, they're thinking less of the novel itself than what the novel has come to signify. Forget political allegory and historical parallels for a moment (though those are certainly unavoidable, like trying to watch the 1964 version of The Killers without thinking of Reagan as president). Instead, try reading it as a great, exciting and profoundly sad story—and one of the most compelling novels of the modern era. 1984 (Centennial Edition) By George Orwell Foreword by Thomas Pynchon, Afterword by Erich Fromm Plume, 368 pages, $14 http://www.nypress.com/16/19/books/books.cfm How to get a blurb from Thomas Pynchon http://www.salon.com/books/log/1999/10/15/pynchon_blurb/ Endorsements http://www.themodernword.com/pynchon/pynchon_essays_blurbs.html From against.the.dave at gmail.com Mon Jul 21 05:26:14 2008 From: against.the.dave at gmail.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2008 05:26:14 -0500 Subject: Pynchon brings added currency to 'Nineteen Eighty-Four' Message-ID: Pynchon brings added currency to 'Nineteen Eighty-Four' David Kipen, Chronicle Book Critic Saturday, May 3, 2003 Nineteen Eighty-Four By George Orwell; foreword by Thomas Pynchon PLUME; 339 PAGES; $14 PAPERBACK Superlatives may get people's attention, but they don't do much to reward it. So if one were to hazard, for example, that novelist Thomas Pynchon's foreword to the new Plume edition of "Nineteen Eighty-Four" just happens to be the finest, deepest, sanest new 20 pages around, the case might yet remain something shy of closed. In the wake of such praise, good questions for a skeptic to ask might include "Compared to what?" "Says who?" and, hardest of all to nail down, "Why?" Answers to the first two boil down to "You name it" and "Who do you think?" But trying to explain why a piece of writing wipes the floor with just about anything else published this year is, necessarily, trickier. Pynchon's foreword expertly re-creates the atmosphere surrounding the composition and reception of "Nineteen Eighty-Four," but any gifted literary historian might have managed that. He articulates an unsentimental humanism relevant to developing events, but an uncommonly perceptive political essayist might have done the same. Where Pynchon doesn't just outpace but laps the rest of the field is in his incomparably supple style. Modulating down the ages from the 18th century baroque of "Mason & Dixon" to the 1940s bebop of "Gravity's Rainbow" to "Vineland's" breathless Deadhead riffs, Pynchon's underlying verbal music stays ever recognizable, unique as a great reed player's embouchure. For the "Nineteen Eighty-Four" intro, Pynchon returns to his signature nonfiction voice: postdoctoral yet cheerfully sophomoric, sad yet undespairing, as expressive in its alternation of long notes with short as an SOS. It's an instrument tuned and retuned in more than 40 years of occasional essays, reviews and liner notes -- forming, incidentally, one of the great uncollected anthologies in American letters. Here's a snatch of the "Nineteen Eighty-Four" introduction, picked less for its considerable power than for the way Pynchon, four of whose six books are historical novels, relates Orwell's anxious age to our own: 'THE WILL TO FASCISM' "Orwell in 1948 understood that despite the Axis defeat, the will to fascism had not gone away, that far from having seen its day it had perhaps not yet even come into its own -- the corruption of spirit, the irresistible human addiction to power, were already long in place, all well-known aspects of the Third Reich and Stalin's U.S.S.R., even the British Labour party -- like first drafts of a terrible future. What could prevent the same thing from happening to Britain and the United States? Moral superiority? Good intentions? Clean living?" This isn't quite Pynchon at his best. In a sentence that begins in 1948, does Hitler really belong on a list of fascist regimes "long in place"? And do those two dashes signal interruption and resumption, or merely consecutive interruptions? Always a question. But the passage swings like crazy, and it introduces the familiar Pynchon theme that may, together with his love of individual liberty and his wariness of transnational corporations, speak most urgently to our time. It's what he calls here "the will to fascism," the eternal willingness of Orwell's proles and Pynchon's beloved, sheepish schlemihls to scoot over and leave the driving to Daddy. Fascism's hypnotic fascination also crops up in Pynchon's great California novel "Vineland," whose heroine Frenesi's social conscience is forever at war with her weakness for men in uniform -- her literal love for Big Brother. Some bushy-tailed editor at Plume must have known "Vineland" awfully well to hope they could solicit Pynchon's intro and get a yes, as that novel represents about the only place in Pynchon's entire back catalog where he even hints at his debt to Orwell. Pynchon set "Vineland" in the year 1984, but that isn't the half of it. He also used such Orwellian imagery as a nightmare television that announces, "From now on, I'm watching you," and a series of regular roadside busts whose eyes follow anyone driving by -- recalling the Big Brother posters in the stairwell on the first page of "Nineteen Eighty-Four." More than any incidental and possibly unconscious allusions, though, what links Pynchon with Orwell is the quality of being what Orwell called, in his 1939 essay on Dickens, "generously angry." (By the way, Michael Krasny's "Forum" book club 'takes up "Vineland" at 10 a.m. May 26 on KQED.) But the idea behind the Plume introduction was presumably for Pynchon to illuminate Orwell, not the other way around. Luckily, it works both ways. Pynchon has taken a book few Americans get out of high school without at least pretending to have understood and found something genuinely fresh in it. For instance, maybe most importantly, Pynchon's essay uses "Nineteen Eighty- Four's" almost always skipped Appendix, "The Principles of Newspeak," to reverse-engineer a crack of daylight into Orwell's hitherto unforgiving midnight of an ending. A THING OF THE PAST? Pynchon maintains that, "from its first sentence, 'The Principles of Newspeak' is written consistently in the past tense, as if to suggest some later piece of history, post-1984, in which Newspeak has become literally a thing of the past. . . . In its hints of restoration and redemption, perhaps 'The Principles of Newspeak' serves as a way to brighten an otherwise bleakly pessimistic ending -- sending us back out into the streets of our own dystopia whistling a slightly happier tune than the end of the story by itself would have warranted." According to Pynchon's secondary research, Orwell risked 40,000 British pounds to keep this supposedly vestigial appendix, which the Book-of-the-Month Club found anti-climactic, right where it was -- and is. Thanks to Pynchon's close reading of other Orwelliana, and of Michael Shelden's 1991 authorized biography -- an interesting if unsurprising choice, considering the famously private Pynchon's dubiousness about unauthorized digging -- this new introduction to "Nineteen Eighty-Four" ultimately lets readers eavesdrop on some glorious, death-defying shoptalk between two of the 20th century's greatest writers. Once in a great while, only superlatives will do. E-mail David Kipen at dkipen at sfchronicle.com. http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2003/05/03/DD302378.DTL From richardryannyc at yahoo.com Mon Jul 21 05:29:50 2008 From: richardryannyc at yahoo.com (Richard Ryan) Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2008 03:29:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Trek, Zone, Peaks In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <2659.57074.qm@web50701.mail.re2.yahoo.com> If the CBS site is doing IP address detection, which most big media sites are in fact doing these days, then I believe Otto would have to come in through some sort of proxy or VPN which is exposing a US-assigned IP address to the sites being browsed. --- On Mon, 7/21/08, Dave Monroe wrote: > From: Dave Monroe > Subject: Re: Trek, Zone, Peaks > To: "Otto" > Cc: "pynchon -l" > Date: Monday, July 21, 2008, 5:17 AM > On Mon, Jul 21, 2008 at 4:14 AM, Otto > wrote: > > > Is it only open to US-viewers? > > > > "This content is currently unavailable." > > Seeing as we were just poking around the various series > there (see > also MacGyver, The Love Boat, Have Gun Will Travel, Hawaii > 5-0, et > al.), that may unfortunately be the case. Anywone know if > thre's any > way around that? To be an online virtual American? If I > can help ... From markekohut at yahoo.com Mon Jul 21 06:17:22 2008 From: markekohut at yahoo.com (Mark Kohut) Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2008 04:17:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: AtD (37) p.1043 cont. Scylla and Charybdis, worse than ever, face cream and hop Message-ID: <588398.72752.qm@web38402.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Scylla, the Astrologer: Scylla (pronounced /ˈsɪlə/), or Skylla (Greek: Σκύλλα) was one of the two monsters in Greek mythology (the other being Charybdis) that lived on either side of a narrow channel of water. The two sides of the strait were within an arrow's range of each other - so close that sailors attempting to avoid Charybdis would pass too close to Scylla and vice versa. The phrase between Scylla and Charybdis has come to mean being in a state where one is between two dangers and moving away from one will cause you to be in danger from the other. wikipedia I might speculate that the cycles of History are bounded by one or the other?? The next line about the RC makes me smile (but with sadness at TRPs vision here)...The RC--see the endless cycle motif--is worse than ever-- under new management, natch. Of course, there would be only an empty jar of face cream for such as Ms. Maraca......... .50 cent in 1925 = about $6.00 tip today. (see inflation calculator). hop = marijuana From markekohut at yahoo.com Mon Jul 21 06:34:37 2008 From: markekohut at yahoo.com (Mark Kohut) Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2008 04:34:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: AtD (37) p. 1045, toilet scrying, ???, 'many bodies'. Message-ID: <862818.18818.qm@web38406.mail.mud.yahoo.com> P. 1044 hophead, used by the police and trusted by Lew, reads TOILET BOWLS!....Cf. Slothrop's trip down the toilet in GR. Cf. clues in the human 'waste', so to speak. Cf. N.O. Brown on money as shit in Life Against Death. (I just read a mystery in which there was another hophead with astonishing talent used by the police. A mystery novel stereotype Pynchon uses, I guess) Bad atmosphere. Emilio needs the mirrors covered? [see N. West on masques as Southern California?] Mirrors pervade TRPs work. What meaning here? "They're like fleas".."it stays focussed"..WTF? Mirrors distract him? Can't focus easily? Because of pot? ...to see WHAT that are like fleas?...??? Little bits of the past? fragments of images of time past? bits of 'time shrapnel"?... Many bodies...bad, bad visions. From against.the.dave at gmail.com Mon Jul 21 06:43:46 2008 From: against.the.dave at gmail.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2008 06:43:46 -0500 Subject: AtD (37) p. 1045, toilet scrying, ???, 'many bodies'. In-Reply-To: <862818.18818.qm@web38406.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <862818.18818.qm@web38406.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Jul 21, 2008 at 6:34 AM, Mark Kohut wrote: > Mirrors pervade TRPs work. What meaning here? Bilocation? >"They're like fleas".."it stays focussed"..WTF? > > Mirrors distract him? Can't focus easily? Because of pot? ...to see WHAT that are like fleas?...??? Little bits of the past? fragments of images of time past? bits of 'time shrapnel"?... I'm not sure now either whether to read that as some sort of drug use symptom, a sensation, say, like fleas on one's skin, or to read the mirrors as like fleas ... From against.the.dave at gmail.com Mon Jul 21 06:58:47 2008 From: against.the.dave at gmail.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2008 06:58:47 -0500 Subject: AtD (37) pp.1040 ff. Thoughts on Lew Basnight, detective. In-Reply-To: <439279.70979.qm@web38406.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <072020081412.18737.488347CA0008A4C0000049312215553894040A0B0E0A9C0B020E0402070D019D@comcast.net> <439279.70979.qm@web38406.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Jul 20, 2008 at 9:40 AM, Mark Kohut wrote: > Lew [!] Basnight I still can't help but read this as "Lube-ass knight." I can't recall, did we put the usual trace on that name? Which reminds me ... http://www.surnameweb.org/Basnight/surnames.htm This, by the way, seems interesting, at least ... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Wikipedia_sockpuppets_of_Its_Pytch.._Hon From against.the.dave at gmail.com Mon Jul 21 07:02:13 2008 From: against.the.dave at gmail.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2008 07:02:13 -0500 Subject: Basnight in Twilight Message-ID: Tuesday, November 13, 2007 Basnight in Twilight But here seemed to be those old bilocational powers emerging now once again, only different. (pp. 1040-1062) It is 1925, and Lew Basnight, after spending the war in England has, like all good private eyes nearing retirement age, ended up in Los Angeles. He has a staff of three mighty fit young ladies, Thetis, Shalimar, and Mezzanine, handy with firearms, enough rich clients with messy lives needing cleaning, and some mysterious overseas income, so that he is doing quite well for himself. As our penultimate episode opens, a black jazz musician, Chester LeStreet, tells Lew he's been sent by Tony Tsangarakis, a club owner and gangster, to ask him to investigate the possible reappearance of a party girl named Encarnacion, who was supposed to have been murdered some time before. This word has come via a phone call from Santa Barbara made by one Miss Jardine Maraca, Encarnacion's old roommate. Lew traces Miss Maraca to a shabby motor court on the Pacific Coast Highway, from which she has departed. Finding no clues in her empty room, Lew calls Emilio, a Filipino dope peddler and psychic living nearby, to come give the place, specifically the toilet bowl, a look. Emilio, appalled by his visions, gives Lew a Los Angeles address that appears to him, and demands his fee right then, in cash. Back at the office, Lew learns that Merle Rideout has been calling every ten minutes to speak to him. Finally getting him on the line, Merle asks Lew to meet him at a picnic ground. Merle has been in L.A. for over a decade, running into Luca Zombini, now a designer of movie special effects, in early 1914. He visits the always interesting Zombini household and comes to some affectionate resolution with Erlys. The Zombinis become what family Merle has. At the picnic park, Merle has Lew take steps to shake anyone tailing him, directing him to meet his partner Roswell Bounce at the other end of the park. The three of them proceed to the inventors' lab. Rideout and Bounce (heh) have invented a sort of viewing process which accesses the mysterious capabilities of silver to bring photographs to life, making them not only windows of the future, and the past of their subjects, but, depending on the settings, viewers of alternate futures as well. The scientists think the studios are out to steal the process and ask Lew for protection. Testing their invention, Lew gets them to scan a photo of Jardine Maraca, and watches as she drives to a place called Carefree Court. When Lew finally checks out the address Emilio gave him, he finds a bungalow, and, behind its screen door, the malevolently beautiful, and haunted looking, Mrs. Deuce Kindred. Noting Lew's obvious arousal, the very willing Lake invites him in. Oh this was going to be sordid as all hell, thinks Lew, and boy is he right. Afterwards, while Lew is chatting with Lake about Encarnacion's case over coffee in the kitchen, Deuce enters, a mean runt packing heat, a labor-busting goon for a low-rent movie studio. Deuce does not care, like at all, about what Lew and Lake have been up to, but objects heatedly to Lew's mocking questions about what he does, and finally pulls his gun. Luckily, Lew had earlier told Shalimar to back him up. She enters with a machine gun and Deuce ducks out. The next three pages are sketched out of the miserable dream lives of Lake and Deuce, two pathetic people who've used each other for years merely to escape the consequences of any human feelings. A day or two later, Lew goes to Carefree Court, where he crashes a party. Everyone there has been, over the years, at war, or at least at odds, with the many forces of authority, but seem pretty chipper about it all. Lew meets Virgil Maraca, who reminds him of the Hermit tarot card, and his daughter Jardine, who reminds Lew of his lost wife, Troth. Jardine tells Lew that Encarnacion's case is closed, that she returned (from the dead?) only long enough to testify against Deuce, whom the cops have picked up for a string of grizzly murders of women. Though she makes plans for Lew to take her out of town, Jardine decides instead to steal an airplane, and flies away over the desert. Lew goes to Merle with a photo of Troth taken in 1890 and asks to see her grow old. Doing so, he falls into a reverie of the irrecoverable past, wondering if she can see him too. Merle, perhaps inspired by this, uses a picture of Dally he took in Colorado when she was 12, to find her now in Paris, where she, sitting in a tiny studio, now appears to return his gaze, smiles at him, saying something. http://chumpsofchoice.blogspot.com/2007/11/basnight-in-twilight.html From against.the.dave at gmail.com Mon Jul 21 07:22:02 2008 From: against.the.dave at gmail.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2008 07:22:02 -0500 Subject: AtD (37) p.1042 'movie-themes, emigres, Le Street, Vertex Club' In-Reply-To: <412713.38617.qm@web38408.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <412713.38617.qm@web38408.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Jul 20, 2008 at 3:01 PM, Mark Kohut wrote: > Vertex Club: The vertex is the intersection of two lines of an angle, the zero point on a graph/grid. Recalls the V-Note in V..(which leads me to THIS thought about "V.", the symbol: > Is a major part of its symbolic meaning the way the lines diverge? As History diverged from a 'good zero point'?....I think this cause it would seem that the V-Note and the Vertex Club would be positive places in Pynchon's associations. Where the lines start, so to speak?) Cf. ... "This is America, you live in it, you let it happen. Let it unfurl." (Lot 49, Ch. 6, p. 150) http://waste.org/mail/?list=pynchon-l&month=0108&msg=58984 "... how had it happened here, with chances once so good for diversity?" (Lot 49, Ch. 3, p. 181) http://waste.org/mail/?list=pynchon-l&month=0405&msg=90546 "Could he have been the fork in the road America never took, the singular point she jumped the wrong way from? Suppose the Slothropite heresy had had the time to consolidate and prosper? Might there have been fewer crimes in the name of Jesus, and more mercy in the name of Judas Iscariot? It seems to Tyrone Slothrop that there might be a route back -- maybe that anarchist he met in Zurich was right, maybe for a little while all the fences are down, one road as good as another, the whole space of the Zone cleared, depolarized, and somewhere inside the waste of it a single set of coordinates from which to proceed, without elect, without preterite, without even nationality to fuck it up ..." (GR, Pt. II, p. 556) http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/3928/pns554.html http://waste.org/mail/?list=pynchon-l&month=0706&msg=119655 "Does Brittania, when she sleeps, dream? Is America her dream? [...] serving as a very Rubbish-Tip for subjunctive Hopes, for all that may yet be true." (M&D, Ch. 34, p. 345) http://waste.org/mail/?list=pynchon-l&month=0405&msg=90546 "... unshaped freedom being rationalized into movement only in straight lines and at right angles and a progressive reduction of choices, until the final turn through the final gate that led to the killing-floor." (AtD, Pt. I, Ch. 2, p. 10) http://waste.org/mail/?list=pynchon-l&month=0701&msg=114381 "... these folks down here at least still have a chance--'one that the norteamericanos lost long ago. For you-all, it's way too late anymore." (AtD, Pt. III, p. 643) http://waste.org/mail/?list=pynchon-l&month=0711&msg=123113 I seem to need analogous passages from V., Vineland. Help! Thanks ... From scuffling at gmail.com Mon Jul 21 08:37:34 2008 From: scuffling at gmail.com (Henry) Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2008 09:37:34 -0400 Subject: AtD (37) pp.1040 ff. Thoughts on Lew Basnight, detective. In-Reply-To: <334582.28441.qm@web38406.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <334582.28441.qm@web38406.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <006e01c8eb36$ef780240$ce6806c0$@com> I don't see Lew as a seeker or even a fixer. Detectives are NOT seekers. The "merely" detect, discover things that have been purposely hidden by others. But, in true film noir tradition, Lew is sweethearts with broken-hearts (Bogey, anyone?); a very good guy who moves through, rather than moving the plot, all the while detecting, like a sensitive flame, what is already there. Henry Mu Information, Media, and Technology Consultant http://my.barackobama.com/page/community/blog/henrymu From against.the.dave at gmail.com Mon Jul 21 08:57:03 2008 From: against.the.dave at gmail.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2008 08:57:03 -0500 Subject: AtD (37) p.1042 'movie-themes, emigres, Le Street, Vertex Club' In-Reply-To: References: <412713.38617.qm@web38408.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Jul 21, 2008 at 7:22 AM, Dave Monroe wrote: > On Sun, Jul 20, 2008 at 3:01 PM, Mark Kohut wrote: > >> Vertex Club: The vertex is the intersection of two lines of an angle, the zero point on a graph/grid. Recalls the V-Note in V..(which leads me to THIS thought about "V.", the symbol: >> Is a major part of its symbolic meaning the way the lines diverge? As History diverged from a 'good zero point'?....I think this cause it would seem that the V-Note and the Vertex Club would be positive places in Pynchon's associations. Where the lines start, so to speak?) > > Cf. ... > > http://waste.org/mail/?list=pynchon-l&month=0711&msg=123113 "When you come to a fork in the road, take it." --Yogi Berra http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fork_in_the_road_(metaphor) From markekohut at yahoo.com Mon Jul 21 09:13:28 2008 From: markekohut at yahoo.com (Mark Kohut) Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2008 07:13:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: AtD (37) p.1045 Merle R. appears, old farmland, flirting? Message-ID: <311438.73702.qm@web38408.mail.mud.yahoo.com> P.1045 Merle Rideout, been there a long time and feared he ws turning into a hybrid citrus?? A tree? Planted-like? just a Merle R. witticism? (wikipedia says citrus trees hybridize easily) Why does OBA have Lew and Merle come together here? Merle, photographer and lightning rod salesman in film noir LA? Where Hollywood is happening. Sycamore Grove...Iowa girls...The Grove was mostly farmland then, it seems. Became (or also was) a park. Shalimar, named after a battleship, remember, offers to be Lew's "muscle".Hilarious. flirting with Erlys? for saying she looks the same as always?. Well, the woman seems to be right in these situations, yes? Zombini. Name of a famous magician. From markekohut at yahoo.com Mon Jul 21 09:18:28 2008 From: markekohut at yahoo.com (Mark Kohut) Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2008 07:18:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: AtD (37) pp.1040 ff. Thoughts on Lew Basnight, detective. In-Reply-To: <006e01c8eb36$ef780240$ce6806c0$@com> Message-ID: <754421.36065.qm@web38406.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Ah, so Lew 'detects' some of OBAs deep themes as he moves through the book? Which itself makes a thematic point of playing it as it lays, so to speak, rather than forcing any Pretentious Meanings? TRPs sympathetic protagonists are NOT ego-driven, but receptive to things as they are? --- On Mon, 7/21/08, Henry wrote: > From: Henry > Subject: RE: AtD (37) pp.1040 ff. Thoughts on Lew Basnight, detective. > To: "'Pynchon Liste'" > Date: Monday, July 21, 2008, 9:37 AM > I don't see Lew as a seeker or even a fixer. Detectives > are NOT seekers. > The "merely" detect, discover things that have > been purposely hidden by > others. > > But, in true film noir tradition, Lew is sweethearts with > broken-hearts > (Bogey, anyone?); a very good guy who moves through, rather > than moving the > plot, all the while detecting, like a sensitive flame, what > is already > there. > > Henry Mu > Information, Media, and Technology Consultant > > http://my.barackobama.com/page/community/blog/henrymu From scuffling at gmail.com Mon Jul 21 09:36:38 2008 From: scuffling at gmail.com (Henry) Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2008 10:36:38 -0400 Subject: AtD (37) p.1045 Merle R. appears, old farmland, flirting? In-Reply-To: <311438.73702.qm@web38408.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <311438.73702.qm@web38408.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <007501c8eb3f$2fb4e370$8f1eaa50$@com> For me, Merle and Lew are sweet-ride/base-hearts of AtD. In postmodern tradition, aren't some things plotted, at least in part, to demonstrate authorial skill and will? I made this! Henry Mu Information, Media, and Technology Consultant http://my.barackobama.com/page/community/post/henrymu/gGx7cM -----Original Message----- From: Mark Kohut Why does OBA have Lew and Merle come together here? Merle, photographer and lightning rod salesman in film noir LA? Where Hollywood is happening. From against.the.dave at gmail.com Mon Jul 21 09:41:18 2008 From: against.the.dave at gmail.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2008 09:41:18 -0500 Subject: AtD (37) pp.1040 ff. Thoughts on Lew Basnight, detective. In-Reply-To: <754421.36065.qm@web38406.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <006e01c8eb36$ef780240$ce6806c0$@com> <754421.36065.qm@web38406.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Jul 21, 2008 at 9:18 AM, Mark Kohut wrote: > TRPs sympathetic protagonists are NOT ego-driven, but receptive to things as they are? "Merely train's hardware for any casual onlooker, Waldetar in private life was exactly this mist of philosophy, imagination and continual worry over his several relationships--not only with God, but also with Nita, with their children, with his own history. There's no organized effort about it but there remains a grand joke on all visitors to Baedeker's world: the permanent residents are actually humans in disguise." (V., Ch. 3, p. 78--thanks, Tore!) "'Ev'rywhere they've sent us,-- the Cape, St. Helena, America,-- what's the Element common to all?' "'Long Voyages by Sea,' replies Mason, blinking in Exhaustion by now chronick. 'Was there anything else?' "'Slaves. Ev'ry day at the Cape, we lived with Slavery in our faces,-- more of it at St. Helena,--and now here we are again, in another Colony, this time having drawn them a Line between their Slave-Keepers, and their Wage-Payers, as if doom'd to re-encounter thro' the World this Public Secret, this shameful Core.... Pretending it to be ever somewhere else, with the Turks, the Russians, the Companies, [...] they're murdering and dispossessing thousands untallied, the innocent of the World, passing daily into the Hands of Slaveowners and Torturers, but oh, never in Holland, nor in England, that Garden of Fools...? Christ, Mason.' "'Christ, what? What did I do?' "'Huz. Didn't we take the King's money, as here we'retaking it again? whilst Slaves waited upon us, and we neither one objected, as little a we have here, in certain houses south of the Line,-- Where does it end? No matter where in it we go, shall we find all the World Tyrants and Slaves? America was the one place we shoud not have found them.'" (M&D, Ch. 71, pp. 692-3) >From Pierre-Yves Petillon, "A Re-cognition of Her Errand into the Wilderness," New Essays on The Crying of Lot 49, ed. Patrick O'Donnell (New York: Cambridge UP, 1991), pp. 127-70 ... "As The Crying of Lot 49 nears its end, the Tristero, which has been looming up all along, comes dangerously close to losing the teasing epistemological uncertainty it has retained thus far in the novel. As Oedipa stumbles along a railroad track ... she remembers things she would have seen 'if only she had looked' (179) .... [...] "The Tristero underground has so far been implied to be a motley crew of eccentrics and bohemian drop-outs, an archipelago of 'isolates' having 'withdrawn' from the Republic, a lunatic fringe in tatters. But suddenly, in this last rhetorical leap, the Tristero broadens its scope to include, in a grand, almost liturgical gesture, all the outcasts of American history.... By the end of the novel the Tristero, shadowy as it still remains, is no longer a ghostly underground (perhaps entirely phantasmatic) but a real, 'embattled' underground about to come out of the shadows. No longer hovering on the edge as a cryptic plot, the 'Other' that the Tristero has thus far represented is almost revealed as a version of 'the other America' that Michael Harrington described.... This America is 'the America of poverty,' 'hidden today in a way it never was before,' 'dispossesed,' 'living on the fringes, the margin,' as 'internal exiles.' "Looking back on the novel from the perspective of its finale, it could almost be viewed as a New Deal novel, concerned with gathering back into the American fold a 'third world' previouly excluded...." (pp. 149-50) And from Peter Knight, Conspiracy Culture: From Kennedy to the X-Files (New York: Routledge, 2000), Chapter 1, "Conspiracy/Culture," Section II, "Vineland and Visibility," pp. 57-75 ... "The hidden depths and concelaed realms which might encourage countercultural fantasies of a conspiratorial 'We-system' (as Gravity's Rainbow termed it) have thus all but disappeared in the world of Vineland. Everything has become exposed (to use a film metaphor to which the novel itself is highly attuned) .... On this reading, then, the final failure of the 1960s underground culture comes about not through any of the conspiratorial fantasies of apocalypse which the counterculture predicted, but were left to hide. Everything is visible, and everything is connected, producing a situation in which a routine sense of paranoia is paradoxically both no longer necessary, and more vital than ever." (p. 73) http://waste.org/mail/?list=pynchon-l&month=0208&msg=69706 "'Perhaps its familiarity,' Randolph suggested plaintively, 'rendered it temporarily invisible to you.'" (ATD Pt.I, p. 4) http://waste.org/mail/?list=pynchon-l&month=0701&msg=114275 From paul.mackin at verizon.net Mon Jul 21 12:34:56 2008 From: paul.mackin at verizon.net (Paul Mackin) Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2008 13:34:56 -0400 Subject: AtD (37) p.1045 Merle R. appears, old farmland, flirting? In-Reply-To: <311438.73702.qm@web38408.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <311438.73702.qm@web38408.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4884C8C0.7040709@verizon.net> Mark Kohut wrote: > P.1045 > Merle Rideout, been there a long time and feared he ws turning into a hybrid citrus?? A tree? Planted-like? just a Merle R. witticism? (wikipedia says citrus trees hybridize easily) > > Why does OBA have Lew and Merle come together here? Merle, photographer and lightning rod salesman in film noir LA? Where Hollywood is happening. > > Sycamore Grove...Iowa girls...The Grove was mostly farmland then, it seems. Became (or also was) a park. > It would have been a pretty secluded area on those days when the state picnics were not being held (about half way between Pasadena and downtown L.A.). Sycamore Grove Park. The Iowa picnic was always a big affair. (as was the Nebraska picnic, which I was at a couple of times during the thirties with my former corn husker parents) The park had some relatively wild parts. Once some of us kids (or maybe I was alone) wandered off the main track into a hilly area and came across a very unfriendly man who told us, "Don't come up here no more." I think the area had a reputation as a haven for "undesirables." No problem for Lew or Merle. P. Shalimar, named after a battleship, remember, offers to be Lew's "muscle".Hilarious. > flirting with Erlys? for saying she looks the same as always?. Well, the woman seems to be right in these situations, yes? > > > > Zombini. Name of a famous magician. > > > > > > From paul.mackin at verizon.net Mon Jul 21 15:46:29 2008 From: paul.mackin at verizon.net (Paul Mackin) Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2008 16:46:29 -0400 Subject: AtD (37) p.1045 Merle R. appears, old farmland, flirting? In-Reply-To: <577393.71518.qm@web38405.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <577393.71518.qm@web38405.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4884F5A5.40002@verizon.net> Mark Kohut wrote: >> The park had some relatively wild parts. Once some of us >> kids (or maybe >> I was alone) wandered off the main track into a hilly area >> and came >> across a very unfriendly man who told us, "Don't >> come up here no more." >> > > There's the beginning of a mystery, or Sycamore Park as Chinatown... > The old Chinatown (of the movie) was only about five miles south of the park. Where Union Station is now. (if it's still there) The street is Alameda, which the Anglo locals (at that time anyway) pronounced AlaMEEda, not MAYda like they said it in the movie. From markekohut at yahoo.com Mon Jul 21 16:05:01 2008 From: markekohut at yahoo.com (Mark Kohut) Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2008 14:05:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: NP: "Watchmen" again (still).....from Galley Cat Message-ID: <630196.38797.qm@web38406.mail.mud.yahoo.com> One Trailer, One Weekend, One Bestseller Can a trailer turn a 22-year-old book into one of the biggest selling books on Amazon.com? OK, let's concede the technicality up front: The Watchmen trailer that was shown before The Dark Knight in movie theaters this weekend was promoting the forthcoming motion picture, not the graphic novel written by Alan Moore and illustrated by Dave Gibbons. Nevertheless, as Bully... read more>> From markekohut at yahoo.com Mon Jul 21 17:42:47 2008 From: markekohut at yahoo.com (Mark Kohut) Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2008 15:42:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: AtD (37) p.1046 Happy families are happy in their own way? Eden in CA. Message-ID: <691975.71598.qm@web38401.mail.mud.yahoo.com> P. 1046 Luca and Erlys, a large, seemingly happy family. Every happy family is happy in its own way? P shows his later life vision of happiness in family life? That garden: edenic, esp. the three trees: pomegrante, fig and lemon; all bearing homage to California's fertility? To paradise on earth---part of TRPs Paradiso herein? Like California in the early part of Vineland? Like the best of America? Luca and Erlys's fertility. From michael.lee.bailey at gmail.com Mon Jul 21 19:29:22 2008 From: michael.lee.bailey at gmail.com (Michael Bailey) Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2008 20:29:22 -0400 Subject: Repost: The Big One In-Reply-To: <487B5868.8030703@verizon.net> References: <071420080307.21391.487AC302000C920A0000538F2215575114040A0B0E0A9C0B020E0402070D019D@comcast.net> <487B5868.8030703@verizon.net> Message-ID: Paul Mackin wrote: > Sounds like you think there might be some kind of crazy conspiracy to > suppress the information. What major event (evenk) occurred between V. (where Eigenvalue argued against grouping the world's random caries into cabals) and CoL49 (where Oedipa learned to see...well, whatever it is WASTE is)? Kennedy assassination. > second, third, or fourth cousins? Tom is a digger however. The Hollander article traces political consciousness in OBA's high school editorials... an early and lasting hatred for corruption; the rumors around Kennedy's demise - as a digger, he would've seen the Zapruder film way before some of us (I didn't know it existed until 1974, but I've led a sheltered life) -- and as a person with leftie friends, would've been able to string a lot of dots together into a visto. But I stil maintain he's above all that and is writing for the ages... From kelber at mindspring.com Mon Jul 21 20:30:55 2008 From: kelber at mindspring.com (kelber at mindspring.com) Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2008 21:30:55 -0400 (EDT) Subject: AtD (37) p.1043 cont. Scylla and Charybdis, worse than ever, face cream and hop Message-ID: <10838484.1216690255874.JavaMail.root@elwamui-sweet.atl.sa.earthlink.net> The word "natch" is used to comic effect in Billy Wilder's 1945 movie: The Lost Weekend. Not a crime movie, but an alcoholism movie. Still, very noir-ish. Laura -----Original Message----- >From: Mark Kohut >Sent: Jul 21, 2008 7:17 AM > >The next line about the RC makes me smile (but with sadness at TRPs vision here)...The RC--see the endless cycle motif--is worse than ever-- under new management, natch. > >Of course, there would be only an empty jar of face cream for such as Ms. Maraca......... > >.50 cent in 1925 = about $6.00 tip today. (see inflation calculator). > >hop = marijuana > > > > > > > > From robinlandseadel at comcast.net Mon Jul 21 20:45:25 2008 From: robinlandseadel at comcast.net (robinlandseadel at comcast.net) Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2008 01:45:25 +0000 Subject: Repost: The Big One Message-ID: <072220080145.13930.48853BB50006DFFE0000366A2212059214040A0B0E0A9C0B020E0402070D019D@comcast.net> Paul Mackin wrote: Sounds like you think there might be some kind of crazy conspiracy to suppress the information. A: Ever read this Pynchin guy? Really really big on crackpot conspiracies. No, seriously�the fattest book of Pynchon cross references would have to be on historically extant paranoid conspiracies B: What happened between CoL 49's short black night and the nightmare that is Gravity's Rainbow? Richard Farina's Death. Now you can be rational, call it an obvious mis-adventure, blame it on youthful folly. . . . . . . .or you can do what Thomas Pynchon did and write Gravity's Rainbow, dedicate it to Richard Farina and have numerous seances folded into the plot of a book intent on a shoving a throughly revisionist history of WW 2 down your throat in no uncertain terms, all vectors leading to sinecures in the CIA for ex-Nazis, all laid out explicitly in Gravity's Rainbow. Or were we reading different books? I boned up in advance by reading Slaughterhouse 5 and Catch 22, what's your points of reference? Because, those two books are also throughly revisionist histories of WW 2 and of great value in their own right. C: When were you first aware of I.G. Farben? D: When were you first aware of Prescott Bush's involvement with I.G. Farben? With the CIA? With Standard Oil? P: When was Pynchon first aware of I.G. Farben, and why does he see a link between the dye company and the CIA and old east coast money and Nazis??? When were you first aware of Prescott Bush's involvement with I.G. Farben? Or do you consider this all a load of red herrings? Are you paranoid enough to be reading this? http://www.zeitgeistmovie.com/ And please�don't tell me this is OTT�GRAVITY'S RAINBOW IS OTT ! ! ! ! !, the very definition. From against.the.dave at gmail.com Tue Jul 22 01:04:06 2008 From: against.the.dave at gmail.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2008 01:04:06 -0500 Subject: Charles Stross, Accelerando (2005) Message-ID: http://www.accelerando.org/_static/accelerando.html From against.the.dave at gmail.com Tue Jul 22 01:05:49 2008 From: against.the.dave at gmail.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2008 01:05:49 -0500 Subject: Catachresis Message-ID: A.Word.A.Day with Anu Garg catachresis PRONUNCIATION: (kat-uh-KREE-sis) MEANING: noun: The misuse of words. ETYMOLOGY: Here's a catchall word for all those mixed metaphors, malapropisms, and bushisms. It derives via Latin from Greek katakhresthai (to misuse). USAGE: "Our neighbors to the north aren't spared the disease of catachresis, either. A Canadian politician displayed this manifestation of the illness: 'If this thing starts to snowball, it will catch fire right across the country.'" Jaime O'Neill; A Verbal Ship Lost in a Sea of Words; San Francisco Chronicle; Sep 25, 2005. http://wordsmith.org/words/catachresis.html From against.the.dave at gmail.com Tue Jul 22 01:35:17 2008 From: against.the.dave at gmail.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2008 01:35:17 -0500 Subject: The Road (2008) Message-ID: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0898367/ From monte.davis at verizon.net Tue Jul 22 04:52:33 2008 From: monte.davis at verizon.net (Monte Davis) Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2008 05:52:33 -0400 Subject: AtD (37) p.1043 "the ole RJ, earthquake, Santa Barbara, right angles of History In-Reply-To: <550336.27923.qm@web38405.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <361D1C26F465485EB0A98F2F359F03CD@MSI1> Mark Kohut sez: > "right-angled piece of local coastline" [check it out on a > map. I had no idea] Right angles are one of Pynchon's tropes > in AtD that link--and lead-- to the "rationalization" [ala > Weber] of modernity and, yes, death. Related to Cartesian > grids and linear thought. ... > Next sentence is a deep clue, somehow, I think, to this meaning: > 'This angle was the worst of all possible > aspects....condemning to "endless cycles of greed and > betrayal"'.........Such an angle, such 'rationalization' is > modern Western History?... I'm reminded of the double bend in Central America at Panama, such that ships bound from Atlantic to Pacific actually travel NW to SE. If Pynchon had invented the scramble of greed and betrayal that split Panama off from Venezuela, we'd class it among his more extravagantly silly inventions. From monte.davis at verizon.net Tue Jul 22 04:57:37 2008 From: monte.davis at verizon.net (Monte Davis) Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2008 05:57:37 -0400 Subject: Atd (37) p. 1041. Erie Line, 'home', Lincolnwood, fascism and a pink tab In-Reply-To: <072120081017.29783.4884624700094C35000074572215575114040A0B0E0A9C0B020E0402070D019D@comcast.net> Message-ID: <9FCE1A5D048B484BB69C493881FEEF66@MSI1> > how do people get away with > these insane prices for "Pynchon Industry" books anyway? Umm... because a lot of work goes into them and there's not a large market to spread the cost? Nah, must be the Vibe-Morgan-University Press cartel at work. From robinlandseadel at comcast.net Tue Jul 22 05:38:49 2008 From: robinlandseadel at comcast.net (robinlandseadel at comcast.net) Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2008 10:38:49 +0000 Subject: Atd (37) p. 1041. Erie Line, 'home', Lincolnwood, fascism and a pink tab Message-ID: <072220081038.16694.4885B8B900015A97000041362215575114040A0B0E0A9C0B020E0402070D019D@comcast.net> Monte: Nah, must be the Vibe-Morgan-University Press cartel at work. Good Point . . . . But seriously folks, $80.00 for a used copy of the facsimile of "Meritorious Price"? For that kind of money, the very least they could have done is reset the type, perhaps a touch of Websterization to smooth out the reading process? Maybe an explanatory footnote or two? A Translation of some of the more antique or arcane passages perhaps? It's not like your local library has a copy either. And Steven Weisenburger's "A Gravity's Rainbow Companion"�in print in a reasonably priced QP edition, now in its second printing�is as useful a book as can be found in the Pynchon Lit-Crit sub-genre. A lot of work went into that book and it sells because anyone trying to thread themselves through GR's labyrinth will find the "Companion" as useful a guide as anything out there. From robinlandseadel at comcast.net Tue Jul 22 06:12:37 2008 From: robinlandseadel at comcast.net (robinlandseadel at comcast.net) Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2008 11:12:37 +0000 Subject: Atd (37) p. 1041. Erie Line, 'home', Lincolnwood, fascism and a pink tab Message-ID: <072220081112.27776.4885C0A50006E55E00006C802215575114040A0B0E0A9C0B020E0402070D019D@comcast.net> . . . .and I did shell out those eighty bucks, didn't I? Reminds me of some shtick Grampa [Landseadel, Dad's Dad] picked up from numerous excursions into the Catskills, a thickly accented routine regarding a wedding, our nominal protagonist wending his way towards the buffet table�"all the pushingk and shovingk, it vas unbelievable, I should know, I vas dere foist." -------------- Original message ---------------------- From: robinlandseadel at comcast.net > Monte: > Nah, must be the Vibe-Morgan-University Press cartel at work. > > Good Point . . . . > > But seriously folks . . . . From markekohut at yahoo.com Tue Jul 22 06:45:22 2008 From: markekohut at yahoo.com (Mark Kohut) Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2008 04:45:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Atd (37) p. 1041. Erie Line, 'home', Lincolnwood, fascism and a pink tab In-Reply-To: <072220081038.16694.4885B8B900015A97000041362215575114040A0B0E0A9C0B020E0402070D019D@comcast.net> Message-ID: <194680.94925.qm@web38405.mail.mud.yahoo.com> the used book market is a 'secondary' market....pure supply and demand as the impure saying goes.............. those high prices are because few are available (book is out of print)---Cf. antiques; rare stamps (!)---and the sellers believe they can get that price......others have sold for around that price, for example. The buyers are mostly libraries, I would presume, who if their constituency wanted the book would pay the price. Some new institutionally-oriented books get priced that high because some libraries will buy them. (With new and available books, prices are 'suggested' based on total cost of production--including author's advance, if any---'overhead and maximizing sales. So, fewer books are ever so high. --- On Tue, 7/22/08, robinlandseadel at comcast.net wrote: > From: robinlandseadel at comcast.net > Subject: RE: Atd (37) p. 1041. Erie Line, 'home', Lincolnwood, fascism and a pink tab > To: "P-list" > Date: Tuesday, July 22, 2008, 6:38 AM > Monte: > Nah, must be the Vibe-Morgan-University Press > cartel at work. > > Good Point . . . . > > But seriously folks, $80.00 for a used copy of the > facsimile of "Meritorious > Price"? For that kind of money, the very least they > could have done is > reset the type, perhaps a touch of Websterization to smooth > out the > reading process? Maybe an explanatory footnote or two? A > Translation > of some of the more antique or arcane passages perhaps? > > It's not like your local library has a copy either. > > And Steven Weisenburger's "A Gravity's Rainbow > Companion"—in > print in a reasonably priced QP edition, now in its second > printing—is > as useful a book as can be found in the Pynchon Lit-Crit > sub-genre. A > lot of work went into that book and it sells because anyone > trying to > thread themselves through GR's labyrinth will find the > "Companion" as > useful a guide as anything out there. From markekohut at yahoo.com Tue Jul 22 06:47:16 2008 From: markekohut at yahoo.com (Mark Kohut) Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2008 04:47:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Atd (37) p. 1041. Erie Line, 'home', Lincolnwood, fascism and a pink tab In-Reply-To: <072220081112.27776.4885C0A50006E55E00006C802215575114040A0B0E0A9C0B020E0402070D019D@comcast.net> Message-ID: <482658.96784.qm@web38405.mail.mud.yahoo.com> 'Somebody' ought to bring some of those books back into print at a reasonable cost....need to do a deal with the rights holder---usually the author if the press has let it fall out of print for any legth of time. --- On Tue, 7/22/08, robinlandseadel at comcast.net wrote: > From: robinlandseadel at comcast.net > Subject: RE: Atd (37) p. 1041. Erie Line, 'home', Lincolnwood, fascism and a pink tab > To: "P-list" > Date: Tuesday, July 22, 2008, 7:12 AM > . . . .and I did shell out those eighty bucks, didn't I? > > > Reminds me of some shtick Grampa [Landseadel, Dad's > Dad] > picked up from numerous excursions into the Catskills, a > thickly > accented routine regarding a wedding, our nominal > protagonist > wending his way towards the buffet table—"all the > pushingk and > shovingk, it vas unbelievable, I should know, I vas dere > foist." > -------------- Original message ---------------------- > From: robinlandseadel at comcast.net > > Monte: > > Nah, must be the Vibe-Morgan-University > Press cartel at work. > > > > Good Point . . . . > > > > But seriously folks . . . . From robinlandseadel at comcast.net Tue Jul 22 06:52:17 2008 From: robinlandseadel at comcast.net (robinlandseadel at comcast.net) Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2008 11:52:17 +0000 Subject: Atd (37) p. 1041. Erie Line, 'home', Lincolnwood, fascism and a pink tab Message-ID: <072220081152.13995.4885C9F1000E2509000036AB2215575474040A0B0E0A9C0B020E0402070D019D@comcast.net> Don'tcha think that "Meritorious Price" is P.D.? -------------- Original message ---------------------- From: Mark Kohut > 'Somebody' ought to bring some of those books back into print at a > reasonable cost....need to do a deal with the rights holder---usually > the author if the press has let it fall out of print for any legth of time. From scuffling at gmail.com Tue Jul 22 07:12:08 2008 From: scuffling at gmail.com (Henry) Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2008 08:12:08 -0400 Subject: Catachresis In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <006901c8ebf4$2ac8f620$805ae260$@com> Did the word exist before Bush Baby? If so, before Dan Quayle? HENRY MU Information, Media, and Technology Consultant http://my.barackobama.com/page/outreach/view/main/PListe4Obama From robinlandseadel at comcast.net Tue Jul 22 07:18:19 2008 From: robinlandseadel at comcast.net (robinlandseadel at comcast.net) Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2008 12:18:19 +0000 Subject: Atd (37) p. 1041. Erie Line, 'home', Lincolnwood, fascism and a pink tab Message-ID: <072220081218.7430.4885D00B0008015F00001D062215575474040A0B0E0A9C0B020E0402070D019D@comcast.net> Mark Kohut: Would think so but somebody thinks the facsimile version can bear that. Amount that goes to most authors is a small relative cost of a new book final price anyway.(ask any author!) Monte is right! ! ! There is a Cartel [organ stab] ! ! ! Ah, but the Webb is a wondrous thing, is it not? Writings manifesting themselves on your screen only to disappear and than re-appear at a moments notice. Strange and wondrous. http://tinyurl.com/6x35az From markekohut at yahoo.com Tue Jul 22 07:39:40 2008 From: markekohut at yahoo.com (Mark Kohut) Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2008 05:39:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: AtD (37) p, 1047, Little Rascals, casting, method acting and selling Message-ID: <871207.48134.qm@web38401.mail.mud.yahoo.com> some words well-defined on the p-wiki if needed. L'il Jailbirds. I think that this is more an allusion to Our Gang, known as The Little Rascals in a Hollywood allusion---orig. in 1922---but with an internal allusion to the Chums?? I.E. going around doing good deeds, although they are not reform-school escapees---although we might call them immature juveniles when they start in AtD. Dunno, maybe too too kutely korresponding (on my part) but ???[Nah]....maybe an amalgam of The Little Rascals and the others mentioned on the p-wiki, but none of them seems to have this plot framework. Hollywood ignores real identity to cast by 'looks' and reflected light. More 'daylit' fiction? Continuing metaphor for America fictionalizing history, life? Cici practioing jabbering "Chinese style" for a silent movie. Getting "in character". Hilarious method acting, overacting joke [imho]. Hollywood's irreality continued. Merle, photographer and traveling salesman, here is what Time Magazine in 1930 wrote about his work as a lightning rod salesman:"About the turn of the century, "lightning rod salesman" became synonymous in New England with "horse thief" in Kansas. Most industries in such a situation would form an association, hire a good publicity man, set things right. But the lightning-rod-makers, while they published sales booklets filled with startling pictures of lightning and burnt houses, did not have to do this. In 1915 the National Board of Fire Underwriters set standards for equipment and ever since has urged the use of lightning-rods." Merle is not a citizen of any state but all of America is home. Merle, deracinated American who 'missed' home and family. From scuffling at gmail.com Tue Jul 22 08:10:33 2008 From: scuffling at gmail.com (Henry) Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2008 09:10:33 -0400 Subject: AtD (37) p, 1047, Little Rascals, casting, method acting and selling In-Reply-To: <871207.48134.qm@web38401.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <871207.48134.qm@web38401.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <007401c8ebfc$5387e500$fa97af00$@com> Pynch would like the changes while remaining the same from Little Tough Guys, Dead End Kids, East Side Kids, to Bowery Boys! Henry Mu Information, Media, and Technology Consultant http://my.barackobama.com/page/outreach/view/main/PListe4Obama From robinlandseadel at comcast.net Tue Jul 22 09:15:54 2008 From: robinlandseadel at comcast.net (robinlandseadel at comcast.net) Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2008 14:15:54 +0000 Subject: AtDTDA (37) 1046/47"I'd've let you do the cooking" Message-ID: <072220081415.408.4885EB9A000CE750000001982215586394040A0B0E0A9C0B020E0402070D019D@comcast.net> Luca in Hermetic Heaven: Luca came in with a bag of groceries. "Evenin Professor," Merle with a quick social smile. "Somebody's told me you were coming I'd've let you do the cooking" said Luca. "I could peel somethin. Carve it up?" "Most of it's growing out back, come on." They went out the back door and into a sizable garden, full of long green frying peppers, bush-sized basil plants,zucchini running all over the place, artichokes with their feathery tops blowing in a wind in today from the desert, eggplants glowing ultraviolet in the shadows, tomatoes looking like the four-color illustrations of themselves that showed upon lugs down at the market. There was a pomegranate tree, and a fig tree, and a lemon tree, all bearing. . . . Against the Day, pages 1046 & 1047 The fundamental issue in our study is the human exprience of nature. The average modern man's relationship with nature is not the one that prevailed in the premodern "cycle" to which, along with many other traditions, the hermetico- alchemical tradition belongs. The study of nature today devotes itself exhaustively to a conglomeration of strictly reasoned laws concerning various "phenomena"�light, electricity, heat, etc.�which spread out kaleidoscopically before us utterly devoid of any spiritual meaning, derived solely from mathematical processes. In the traditional world, on the contrary, nature was not thought about but lived, as though it were a great, sacred, animated body, "the visible expression of the invisible." Knowledge about nature derived from inspiration, intuition and visions, and was transmitted "by initiation" as so many living "mysteries," referring to things today that have lost their meaning and seem banal and commonplace�as, for example, the art of building, medicine, cultivation of the soil and so forth. . . ." "The Hermetic Tradition", Julius Evola, page 15. . . . .Unless the state of our souls becomes once more a subject of serious concern, there is little question that Sloth will continue to evolve away from its origins in the long-ago age of faith and miracle, when daily life really was the Holy Ghost visibly at work and time was a story, with a beginning, middle and end. Belief was intense, engagement deep and fatal. The Christian God was near. Felt. Sloth -- defiant sorrow in the face of God's good intentions -- was a deadly sin. Thomas Pynchon: "Nearer, my Couch, to Thee" Towards the end of Gravity's Rainbow we are witness to a number of magickal failures after Geli's magickal triumph. Vineland's finale is notable for the way all the plot lines single-up, fired more by the flames of family feuds & history than anything else, even Prairie Wheeler getting seduced by the props of power in the forms of a badge and a gun�a Pavlovian response akin to Slothrop's thing for Impolex G. And in Mason & Dixon time takes its course. But in "Against the Day" Pynchon is giving us little glimpses of heaven in the coda. Welcome to the Hermeticist's garden. There's Pert's Ascent with Thomas Tallis, Cyprian's Covenant and soon to come we will have Kit's transmigration, the lesson he learned on the way to Shambhala. It is the hopeful P.O.V.of a Buddah, working to see that everyone gets to heaven, that no-one has to stay exiled. I'm not sayin' that TRP is Buddha, buddy but I am saying that, like the Beats, OBA's had his mind on the Bottisatvas for a while, little references in CoL49, bigger ones in GR but OTT in Vineland and AtD. From markekohut at yahoo.com Tue Jul 22 10:08:45 2008 From: markekohut at yahoo.com (Mark Kohut) Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2008 08:08:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: AtDTDA (37) 1046/47"I'd've let you do the cooking" In-Reply-To: <072220081415.408.4885EB9A000CE750000001982215586394040A0B0E0A9C0B020E0402070D019D@comcast.net> Message-ID: <297488.42621.qm@web38405.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Robin writes, quoting: "In the traditional world, on the contrary, nature was not thought about but lived, as though it were a great, sacred, animated body, "the visible expression of the invisible." MK: I like this enormously in understanding---with his own more aslant non-fiction words--a major vision in his work, most fully expressed in AtD? ___________________________________________________________________ --- On Tue, 7/22/08, robinlandseadel at comcast.net wrote: > From: robinlandseadel at comcast.net > Subject: AtDTDA (37) 1046/47"I'd've let you do the cooking" > To: "P-list" > Date: Tuesday, July 22, 2008, 10:15 AM > Luca in Hermetic Heaven: > > Luca came in with a bag of groceries. > > "Evenin Professor," Merle with a quick > social smile. > > "Somebody's told me you were coming > I'd've let you > do the cooking" said Luca. > > "I could peel somethin. Carve it up?" > > "Most of it's growing out back, come > on." They went out > the back door and into a sizable garden, full of > long green > frying peppers, bush-sized basil plants,zucchini > running > all over the place, artichokes with their > feathery tops > blowing in a wind in today from the desert, > eggplants > glowing ultraviolet in the shadows, tomatoes > looking like > the four-color illustrations of themselves that > showed upon > lugs down at the market. There was a pomegranate > tree, > and a fig tree, and a lemon tree, all bearing. . > . . > > Against the Day, pages 1046 & 1047 > > The fundamental issue in our study is the human > exprience > of nature. The average modern man's > relationship with > nature is not the one that prevailed in the > premodern "cycle" > to which, along with many other traditions, the > hermetico- > alchemical tradition belongs. The study of nature > today > devotes itself exhaustively to a conglomeration > of strictly > reasoned laws concerning various > "phenomena"—light, > electricity, heat, etc.—which spread out > kaleidoscopically > before us utterly devoid of any spiritual > meaning, derived > solely from mathematical processes. In the > traditional world, > on the contrary, nature was not thought about but > lived, as > though it were a great, sacred, animated body, > "the visible > expression of the invisible." Knowledge > about nature > derived from inspiration, intuition and visions, > and was > transmitted "by initiation" as so many > living "mysteries," > referring to things today that have lost their > meaning and > seem banal and commonplace—as, for example, the > art > of building, medicine, cultivation of the soil > and so forth. . . ." > > "The Hermetic Tradition", Julius Evola, > page 15. > > . . . .Unless the state of our souls becomes once > more > a subject of serious concern, there is little > question that > Sloth will continue to evolve away from its > origins in the > long-ago age of faith and miracle, when daily > life really > was the Holy Ghost visibly at work and time was a > story, > with a beginning, middle and end. Belief was > intense, > engagement deep and fatal. The Christian God was > near. > Felt. Sloth -- defiant sorrow in the face of > God's good > intentions -- was a deadly sin. > Thomas Pynchon: "Nearer, my Couch, to > Thee" > > > Towards the end of Gravity's Rainbow we are witness to > a number > of magickal failures after Geli's magickal triumph. > Vineland's finale > is notable for the way all the plot lines single-up, fired > more by the > flames of family feuds & history than anything else, > even Prairie > Wheeler getting seduced by the props of power in the forms > of a > badge and a gun—a Pavlovian response akin to > Slothrop's thing > for Impolex G. And in Mason & Dixon time takes its > course. > > But in "Against the Day" Pynchon is giving us > little glimpses of > heaven in the coda. Welcome to the Hermeticist's > garden. There's > Pert's Ascent with Thomas Tallis, Cyprian's > Covenant and soon > to come we will have Kit's transmigration, the lesson > he learned > on the way to Shambhala. It is the hopeful P.O.V.of a > Buddah, > working to see that everyone gets to heaven, that no-one > has > to stay exiled. > > I'm not sayin' that TRP is Buddha, buddy but I am > saying that, like the > Beats, OBA's had his mind on the Bottisatvas for a > while, little references in > CoL49, bigger ones in GR but OTT in Vineland and AtD. From robinlandseadel at comcast.net Tue Jul 22 10:25:27 2008 From: robinlandseadel at comcast.net (robinlandseadel at comcast.net) Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2008 15:25:27 +0000 Subject: AtDTDA (37) 1046/47"I'd've let you do the cooking" Message-ID: <072220081525.15166.4885FBE70000146300003B3E2216566276040A0B0E0A9C0B020E0402070D019D@comcast.net> Julius Evola: "In the traditional world, on the contrary, nature was not thought about but lived, as though it were a great, sacred, animated body, "the visible expression of the invisible." Mark Kohut: I like this enormously in understanding---with his own more aslant non-fiction words--a major vision in his work, most fully expressed in AtD? If "Science"�Big Science [hallelujah]*�is the new religion than "The Sentient Earth" is the new heresy. OBA's been collecting heresies for quite awhile, I suspect that "Meritorious Price" has been in the background all along. Examples of the holistic unity �the "at-one-ness"�of Earth abounds in AtD. Everything connects. *Born out of a need to justify exploitation, "The Age of Reason" so ably parodied in Mason & Dixon was more like "The Age of Rationalization." Not simply out of its need to explain away "the supernatural" but also in the sense of narrowing options until the line to the abattoir singles up, nice and smooth. From igrlivingston at gmail.com Tue Jul 22 10:54:49 2008 From: igrlivingston at gmail.com (Ian Livingston) Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2008 08:54:49 -0700 Subject: AtD (37) p, 1047, Little Rascals, casting, method acting and selling In-Reply-To: <871207.48134.qm@web38401.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <871207.48134.qm@web38401.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <95cde1ee0807220854w78454d32jdfc64f630905f4d7@mail.gmail.com> Uh, Herman Melville register anywhere here? On Tue, Jul 22, 2008 at 5:39 AM, Mark Kohut wrote: > some words well-defined on the p-wiki if needed. > > L'il Jailbirds. I think that this is more an allusion to Our Gang, known as > The Little Rascals in a Hollywood allusion---orig. in 1922---but with an > internal allusion to the Chums?? > I.E. going around doing good deeds, although they are not reform-school > escapees---although we might call them immature juveniles when they start in > AtD. Dunno, maybe too too kutely korresponding (on my part) but > ???[Nah]....maybe an amalgam of The Little Rascals and the others mentioned > on the p-wiki, but none of them seems to have this plot framework. > > Hollywood ignores real identity to cast by 'looks' and reflected light. > More 'daylit' fiction? Continuing metaphor for America fictionalizing > history, life? > > Cici practioing jabbering "Chinese style" for a silent movie. Getting "in > character". Hilarious method acting, overacting joke [imho]. Hollywood's > irreality continued. > > Merle, photographer and traveling salesman, here is what Time Magazine in > 1930 wrote about his work as a lightning rod salesman:"About the turn of the > century, "lightning rod salesman" became synonymous in New England with > "horse thief" in Kansas. > Most industries in such a situation would form an association, hire a good > publicity man, set things right. But the lightning-rod-makers, while they > published sales booklets filled with startling pictures of lightning and > burnt houses, did not have to do this. In 1915 the National Board of Fire > Underwriters set standards for equipment and ever since has urged the use of > lightning-rods." > > Merle is not a citizen of any state but all of America is home. Merle, > deracinated American who 'missed' home and family. > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From markekohut at yahoo.com Tue Jul 22 11:05:03 2008 From: markekohut at yahoo.com (Mark Kohut) Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2008 09:05:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: AtD (37) p, 1047, Little Rascals, casting, method acting and selling In-Reply-To: <95cde1ee0807220854w78454d32jdfc64f630905f4d7@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <236497.99486.qm@web38401.mail.mud.yahoo.com> "The Lightning Rod Salesman" story, ya mean? Natch, as Laura likes to say noirly, but Merle is not such a fraud as that story in that time suggests, yes? But I betcha TRP got the first notion of lightning-rod salesman from it. (I might argue that that is the way he sees Merle's major occupation---photography. He don't seem to like it much, as we know...) I might argue that Merle is just a struggling victim in the wake of? --- On Tue, 7/22/08, Ian Livingston wrote: > From: Ian Livingston > Subject: Re: AtD (37) p, 1047, Little Rascals, casting, method acting and selling > To: markekohut at yahoo.com > Cc: "pynchon -l" > Date: Tuesday, July 22, 2008, 11:54 AM > Uh, Herman Melville register anywhere here? > > On Tue, Jul 22, 2008 at 5:39 AM, Mark Kohut > wrote: > > > some words well-defined on the p-wiki if needed. > > > > L'il Jailbirds. I think that this is more an > allusion to Our Gang, known as > > The Little Rascals in a Hollywood allusion---orig. in > 1922---but with an > > internal allusion to the Chums?? > > I.E. going around doing good deeds, although they are > not reform-school > > escapees---although we might call them immature > juveniles when they start in > > AtD. Dunno, maybe too too kutely korresponding (on my > part) but > > ???[Nah]....maybe an amalgam of The Little Rascals and > the others mentioned > > on the p-wiki, but none of them seems to have this > plot framework. > > > > Hollywood ignores real identity to cast by > 'looks' and reflected light. > > More 'daylit' fiction? Continuing metaphor for > America fictionalizing > > history, life? > > > > Cici practioing jabbering "Chinese style" > for a silent movie. Getting "in > > character". Hilarious method acting, overacting > joke [imho]. Hollywood's > > irreality continued. > > > > Merle, photographer and traveling salesman, here is > what Time Magazine in > > 1930 wrote about his work as a lightning rod > salesman:"About the turn of the > > century, "lightning rod salesman" became > synonymous in New England with > > "horse thief" in Kansas. > > Most industries in such a situation would form an > association, hire a good > > publicity man, set things right. But the > lightning-rod-makers, while they > > published sales booklets filled with startling > pictures of lightning and > > burnt houses, did not have to do this. In 1915 the > National Board of Fire > > Underwriters set standards for equipment and ever > since has urged the use of > > lightning-rods." > > > > Merle is not a citizen of any state but all of America > is home. Merle, > > deracinated American who 'missed' home and > family. > > > > > > > > From igrlivingston at gmail.com Tue Jul 22 11:16:23 2008 From: igrlivingston at gmail.com (Ian Livingston) Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2008 09:16:23 -0700 Subject: AtD (37) p, 1047, Little Rascals, casting, method acting and selling In-Reply-To: <236497.99486.qm@web38401.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <95cde1ee0807220854w78454d32jdfc64f630905f4d7@mail.gmail.com> <236497.99486.qm@web38401.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <95cde1ee0807220916s4a2920cdv1beb67f1b0b908@mail.gmail.com> I was thinking more the politics of fear-mongering "The Lightning Rod Man" pedalled. And the rage it aroused in the narrator. Visions of Merle meets Howard Beale. On Tue, Jul 22, 2008 at 9:05 AM, Mark Kohut wrote: > "The Lightning Rod Salesman" story, ya mean? > > Natch, as Laura likes to say noirly, but Merle is not such a fraud as that > story in that time suggests, yes? But I betcha TRP got the first notion of > lightning-rod salesman from it. (I might argue that that is the way he sees > Merle's major occupation---photography. He don't seem to like it much, as > we know...) > > I might argue that Merle is just a struggling victim in the wake of? > > > --- On Tue, 7/22/08, Ian Livingston wrote: > > > From: Ian Livingston > > Subject: Re: AtD (37) p, 1047, Little Rascals, casting, method acting and > selling > > To: markekohut at yahoo.com > > Cc: "pynchon -l" > > Date: Tuesday, July 22, 2008, 11:54 AM > > Uh, Herman Melville register anywhere here? > > > > On Tue, Jul 22, 2008 at 5:39 AM, Mark Kohut > > wrote: > > > > > some words well-defined on the p-wiki if needed. > > > > > > L'il Jailbirds. I think that this is more an > > allusion to Our Gang, known as > > > The Little Rascals in a Hollywood allusion---orig. in > > 1922---but with an > > > internal allusion to the Chums?? > > > I.E. going around doing good deeds, although they are > > not reform-school > > > escapees---although we might call them immature > > juveniles when they start in > > > AtD. Dunno, maybe too too kutely korresponding (on my > > part) but > > > ???[Nah]....maybe an amalgam of The Little Rascals and > > the others mentioned > > > on the p-wiki, but none of them seems to have this > > plot framework. > > > > > > Hollywood ignores real identity to cast by > > 'looks' and reflected light. > > > More 'daylit' fiction? Continuing metaphor for > > America fictionalizing > > > history, life? > > > > > > Cici practioing jabbering "Chinese style" > > for a silent movie. Getting "in > > > character". Hilarious method acting, overacting > > joke [imho]. Hollywood's > > > irreality continued. > > > > > > Merle, photographer and traveling salesman, here is > > what Time Magazine in > > > 1930 wrote about his work as a lightning rod > > salesman:"About the turn of the > > > century, "lightning rod salesman" became > > synonymous in New England with > > > "horse thief" in Kansas. > > > Most industries in such a situation would form an > > association, hire a good > > > publicity man, set things right. But the > > lightning-rod-makers, while they > > > published sales booklets filled with startling > > pictures of lightning and > > > burnt houses, did not have to do this. In 1915 the > > National Board of Fire > > > Underwriters set standards for equipment and ever > > since has urged the use of > > > lightning-rods." > > > > > > Merle is not a citizen of any state but all of America > > is home. Merle, > > > deracinated American who 'missed' home and > > family. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From markekohut at yahoo.com Tue Jul 22 11:39:22 2008 From: markekohut at yahoo.com (Mark Kohut) Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2008 09:39:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: AtD (37) p, 1047, Little Rascals, casting, method acting and selling In-Reply-To: <95cde1ee0807220916s4a2920cdv1beb67f1b0b908@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <14000.75885.qm@web38404.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Deeper than I got.....must reread and rethink, but you sound right on, as used to be said... --- On Tue, 7/22/08, Ian Livingston wrote: > From: Ian Livingston > Subject: Re: AtD (37) p, 1047, Little Rascals, casting, method acting and selling > To: markekohut at yahoo.com, "pynchon -l" > Date: Tuesday, July 22, 2008, 12:16 PM > I was thinking more the politics of fear-mongering "The > Lightning Rod Man" > pedalled. And the rage it aroused in the narrator. > Visions of Merle meets > Howard Beale. > > On Tue, Jul 22, 2008 at 9:05 AM, Mark Kohut > wrote: > > > "The Lightning Rod Salesman" story, ya mean? > > > > Natch, as Laura likes to say noirly, but Merle is not > such a fraud as that > > story in that time suggests, yes? But I betcha TRP got > the first notion of > > lightning-rod salesman from it. (I might argue that > that is the way he sees > > Merle's major occupation---photography. He > don't seem to like it much, as > > we know...) > > > > I might argue that Merle is just a struggling victim > in the wake of? > > > > > > --- On Tue, 7/22/08, Ian Livingston > wrote: > > > > > From: Ian Livingston > > > > Subject: Re: AtD (37) p, 1047, Little Rascals, > casting, method acting and > > selling > > > To: markekohut at yahoo.com > > > Cc: "pynchon -l" > > > > Date: Tuesday, July 22, 2008, 11:54 AM > > > Uh, Herman Melville register anywhere here? > > > > > > On Tue, Jul 22, 2008 at 5:39 AM, Mark Kohut > > > wrote: > > > > > > > some words well-defined on the p-wiki if > needed. > > > > > > > > L'il Jailbirds. I think that this is > more an > > > allusion to Our Gang, known as > > > > The Little Rascals in a Hollywood > allusion---orig. in > > > 1922---but with an > > > > internal allusion to the Chums?? > > > > I.E. going around doing good deeds, although > they are > > > not reform-school > > > > escapees---although we might call them > immature > > > juveniles when they start in > > > > AtD. Dunno, maybe too too kutely > korresponding (on my > > > part) but > > > > ???[Nah]....maybe an amalgam of The Little > Rascals and > > > the others mentioned > > > > on the p-wiki, but none of them seems to > have this > > > plot framework. > > > > > > > > Hollywood ignores real identity to cast by > > > 'looks' and reflected light. > > > > More 'daylit' fiction? Continuing > metaphor for > > > America fictionalizing > > > > history, life? > > > > > > > > Cici practioing jabbering "Chinese > style" > > > for a silent movie. Getting "in > > > > character". Hilarious method acting, > overacting > > > joke [imho]. Hollywood's > > > > irreality continued. > > > > > > > > Merle, photographer and traveling salesman, > here is > > > what Time Magazine in > > > > 1930 wrote about his work as a lightning rod > > > salesman:"About the turn of the > > > > century, "lightning rod salesman" > became > > > synonymous in New England with > > > > "horse thief" in Kansas. > > > > Most industries in such a situation would > form an > > > association, hire a good > > > > publicity man, set things right. But the > > > lightning-rod-makers, while they > > > > published sales booklets filled with > startling > > > pictures of lightning and > > > > burnt houses, did not have to do this. In > 1915 the > > > National Board of Fire > > > > Underwriters set standards for equipment and > ever > > > since has urged the use of > > > > lightning-rods." > > > > > > > > Merle is not a citizen of any state but all > of America > > > is home. Merle, > > > > deracinated American who 'missed' > home and > > > family. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From fqmorris at gmail.com Tue Jul 22 11:45:54 2008 From: fqmorris at gmail.com (David Morris) Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2008 11:45:54 -0500 Subject: Windigo psychosis Message-ID: <7d461dc80807220945g4ac7a3a1k32ddc3f84547713c@mail.gmail.com> http://www.weirduniverse.net/blog/permalink/windigo_psychosis/ Windigo Psychosis The Edmonton Sun offers this description of a bizarre murder that occurred in 1887 near Canada's Slave Lake: Marie Courtereille, 40, died after being struck four times with an axe -- twice by her husband Michel Courtereille and twice by her son Cecil. Testimony at their trial indicated that Marie had begged to be killed because she believed she was possessed by a Windigo, telling them, "I am bound to eat you." Over a period of several weeks, she became increasingly aggressive, "roaring like an animal" and attacking her husband. Eventually, she was tied down and guarded around the clock until it was decided that there was no choice but to kill her. The community supported the killing. A Windigo (also spelled Wendigo) is a creature from Algonquin mythology. The Algonquins believed that Windigos were malevolent spirits who could possess people, transforming them into "wild-eyed, violent, flesh-eating maniacs with superhuman strength." Horror fans will be familiar with Windigos, since they've featured in a number of horror books and movies. The term "Windigo psychosis" describes a psychological condition in which people who believed they were possessed by a Windigo would go on cannibalistic rampages. Many researchers regard Windigo psychosis as something of an Algonquin urban legend, but ethno-historian Nathan Carlson argues that it was a real phenomenon "which haunted communities right across northern Alberta in the late 19th and early 20th Centuries and cost dozens of lives." Carlson is working on a book that will documents dozens of cases of Windigo psychosis. Sounds like fun reading. From jkyllo at gmail.com Tue Jul 22 11:54:39 2008 From: jkyllo at gmail.com (James Kyllo) Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2008 17:54:39 +0100 Subject: AtD (37) p, 1047, Little Rascals, casting, method acting and selling In-Reply-To: <236497.99486.qm@web38401.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <95cde1ee0807220854w78454d32jdfc64f630905f4d7@mail.gmail.com> <236497.99486.qm@web38401.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Jul 22, 2008 at 5:05 PM, Mark Kohut wrote: > "The Lightning Rod Salesman" story, ya mean? > > Natch, as Laura likes to say noirly, but Merle is not such a fraud as that story in that time suggests, yes? But I betcha TRP got the first notion of > lightning-rod salesman from it. Or maybe Ray Bradbury's "Something Wicked This Way Comes" -- http://www.last.fm/user/Auto_Da_Fe http://www.pop.nu/en/show_collection.asp?user=2412 http://www.librarything.com/profile/Auto_Da_Fe http://www.thedetails.co.uk/ From paul.mackin at verizon.net Tue Jul 22 12:34:19 2008 From: paul.mackin at verizon.net (Paul Mackin) Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2008 13:34:19 -0400 Subject: Repost: The Big One In-Reply-To: <072220080145.13930.48853BB50006DFFE0000366A2212059214040A0B0E0A9C0B020E0402070D019D@comcast.net> References: <072220080145.13930.48853BB50006DFFE0000366A2212059214040A0B0E0A9C0B020E0402070D019D@comcast.net> Message-ID: <48861A1B.1010608@verizon.net> robinlandseadel at comcast.net wrote: > Paul Mackin wrote: > > Sounds like you think there might be some kind > of crazy conspiracy to suppress the information. > Clarification: I don't for a moment think Robin believes in a conspiracy to suppress info on the Pynchon family. It just kind of sounded like he did. His questions probably aren't specifically for me but in the spirit of fun I'll take a stab. > A: Ever read this Pynchin guy? Really really big on crackpot conspiracies. > No, seriously—the fattest book of Pynchon cross references would have > to be on historically extant paranoid conspiracies > Started reading GR the day it was published. Had a lot of free time and finished it quickly. Liked and admired it but didn't have an epiphany mainly because I was alread 47. > B: What happened between CoL 49's short black night and the nightmare > that is Gravity's Rainbow? Richard Farina's Death. Now you can be > rational, call it an obvious mis-adventure, blame it on youthful folly. . . . > > . . . .or you can do what Thomas Pynchon did and write Gravity's Rainbow, > dedicate it to Richard Farina and have numerous seances folded into the > plot of a book intent on a shoving a throughly revisionist history of WW 2 > down your throat in no uncertain terms, all vectors leading to sinecures > in the CIA for ex-Nazis, all laid out explicitly in Gravity's Rainbow. > > Or were we reading different books? I boned up in advance by reading > Slaughterhouse 5 and Catch 22, what's your points of reference? > Because, those two books are also throughly revisionist histories > of WW 2 and of great value in their own right. > Or you can do both. Or neither. Why do you ask? > C: When were you first aware of I.G. Farben? > Cary Grant asked Ingrid Bergman a somewhat similar question in "Notorious" (1946). "Even heard of I.G Farben?" A bunch of fugitives from the outfit were hanging out in Brazil. I loved the movie. The I. G. Farben war crimes trials were pretty prominent in the news around that time. Right after the war is my best answer. > D: When were you first aware of Prescott Bush's involvement with I.G. > Farben? With the CIA? With Standard Oil? > A few years ago a bunch of books came out on what I think you are referring to. The Guardian had a long article on the various treatments. > P: When was Pynchon first aware of I.G. Farben, and why does he > see a link between the dye company and the CIA and old east coast > money and Nazis??? ome time before writing GR. > No way of knowing. > When were you first aware of Prescott Bush's involvement with I.G. Farben? > Or do you consider this all a load of red herrings? > Mostly overblown. There's always money to be made during wars. There's also a lot to be lost. I don't think W's grandpa was a Nazi; his grandson kinda acts like one however. > > Are you paranoid enough to be reading this? > Definitely. > http://www.zeitgeistmovie.com/ > > And please—don't tell me this is OTT—GRAVITY'S RAINBOW IS OTT ! ! ! ! !, > the very definition. > > > As Jessica Swanlake said, "I'm afraid I don't . . ." From mryc2903 at yahoo.fr Tue Jul 22 13:40:22 2008 From: mryc2903 at yahoo.fr (Michel Ryckx) Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2008 20:40:22 +0200 Subject: Pynchon Paper & [fake] Pic Message-ID: <48862996.5070604@yahoo.fr> Another article one of the IPW2008 speakers pointed my attention to: "The idea of progress is embodied in the third shadow army moving through the pages of Thomas Pynchon’s novel – namely the fleet of Zeppelins or steered and propelled balloons, which circle the planet on missions and assignments. These missions are gradually shifting and allow the expanding crews for more and more of a discretion in conducting their private search projects and experiencing adventures in the Balkans or in Mexico or above the crater created by the explosion of a meteorite in the Siberian taiga in 1912. The skyships also evolve, increasingly armed with the newest inventions in navigation, in propelling and arms, so that at the end of the novel they actually resemble space shuttles on mysterious missions, symbolically embodying the hope for the swiftness and lightness of progress." OK, a rather simple paper and whatever you think of it: strange picture on page 18 (my guess: fake) Presented by Sławomir Magala during a conference on May, 11, 2007 at the University of Essex, UK: http://www.essex.ac.uk/afm/emc/novelconference/magala_paper.pdf Michel ___________________________________________________________________________ Yahoo! Mail r�invente le mail ! D�couvrez le nouveau Yahoo! Mail et son interface r�volutionnaire. http://fr.mail.yahoo.com From markekohut at yahoo.com Tue Jul 22 13:51:22 2008 From: markekohut at yahoo.com (Mark Kohut) Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2008 11:51:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: AtD (37) p, 1047, Little Rascals, casting, method acting and selling In-Reply-To: <95cde1ee0807220916s4a2920cdv1beb67f1b0b908@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <168894.95785.qm@web38408.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Ian writes of the covert theme of fear-mongering: > I was thinking more the politics of fear-mongering "The > Lightning Rod Man" > pedalled. And the rage it aroused in the narrator. I go back to p. 1042, bottom, where overtly "[what] Lew had learned to recognize as fear of someobdy else's power." > Visions of Merle meets > Howard Beale. > > On Tue, Jul 22, 2008 at 9:05 AM, Mark Kohut > wrote: > > > "The Lightning Rod Salesman" story, ya mean? > > > > Natch, as Laura likes to say noirly, but Merle is not > such a fraud as that > > story in that time suggests, yes? But I betcha TRP got > the first notion of > > lightning-rod salesman from it. (I might argue that > that is the way he sees > > Merle's major occupation---photography. He > don't seem to like it much, as > > we know...) > > > > I might argue that Merle is just a struggling victim > in the wake of? > > > > > > --- On Tue, 7/22/08, Ian Livingston > wrote: > > > > > From: Ian Livingston > > > > Subject: Re: AtD (37) p, 1047, Little Rascals, > casting, method acting and > > selling > > > To: markekohut at yahoo.com > > > Cc: "pynchon -l" > > > > Date: Tuesday, July 22, 2008, 11:54 AM > > > Uh, Herman Melville register anywhere here? > > > > > > On Tue, Jul 22, 2008 at 5:39 AM, Mark Kohut > > > wrote: > > > > > > > some words well-defined on the p-wiki if > needed. > > > > > > > > L'il Jailbirds. I think that this is > more an > > > allusion to Our Gang, known as > > > > The Little Rascals in a Hollywood > allusion---orig. in > > > 1922---but with an > > > > internal allusion to the Chums?? > > > > I.E. going around doing good deeds, although > they are > > > not reform-school > > > > escapees---although we might call them > immature > > > juveniles when they start in > > > > AtD. Dunno, maybe too too kutely > korresponding (on my > > > part) but > > > > ???[Nah]....maybe an amalgam of The Little > Rascals and > > > the others mentioned > > > > on the p-wiki, but none of them seems to > have this > > > plot framework. > > > > > > > > Hollywood ignores real identity to cast by > > > 'looks' and reflected light. > > > > More 'daylit' fiction? Continuing > metaphor for > > > America fictionalizing > > > > history, life? > > > > > > > > Cici practioing jabbering "Chinese > style" > > > for a silent movie. Getting "in > > > > character". Hilarious method acting, > overacting > > > joke [imho]. Hollywood's > > > > irreality continued. > > > > > > > > Merle, photographer and traveling salesman, > here is > > > what Time Magazine in > > > > 1930 wrote about his work as a lightning rod > > > salesman:"About the turn of the > > > > century, "lightning rod salesman" > became > > > synonymous in New England with > > > > "horse thief" in Kansas. > > > > Most industries in such a situation would > form an > > > association, hire a good > > > > publicity man, set things right. But the > > > lightning-rod-makers, while they > > > > published sales booklets filled with > startling > > > pictures of lightning and > > > > burnt houses, did not have to do this. In > 1915 the > > > National Board of Fire > > > > Underwriters set standards for equipment and > ever > > > since has urged the use of > > > > lightning-rods." > > > > > > > > Merle is not a citizen of any state but all > of America > > > is home. Merle, > > > > deracinated American who 'missed' > home and > > > family. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From scuffling at gmail.com Tue Jul 22 14:04:07 2008 From: scuffling at gmail.com (Henry) Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2008 15:04:07 -0400 Subject: AtD (37) p.1045 Merle R. appears, old farmland, flirting? In-Reply-To: <311438.73702.qm@web38408.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <311438.73702.qm@web38408.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <00a301c8ec2d$b7b67290$272357b0$@com> After reading a number, here are a few lightning rod links that I particularly enjoyed: http://www.ideafinder.com/history/inventions/lightningrod.htm http://www.lightningrodrecords.com/ http://www.mensvogue.com/health/feature/articles/2008/04/arod (after all, OBA is a NYer these days) http://www.usatoday.com/weather/resources/basics/2000-05-15-lightn-rod-tests .htm Henry Mu Information, Media, and Technology Consultant http://my.barackobama.com/page/outreach/view/main/PListe4Obama -----Original Message----- From: Mark Kohut Sent: Monday, July 21, 2008 10:13 AM To: pynchon -l Subject: AtD (37) p.1045 Merle R. appears, old farmland, flirting? P.1045 Merle Rideout, been there a long time and feared he ws turning into a hybrid citrus?? A tree? Planted-like? just a Merle R. witticism? (wikipedia says citrus trees hybridize easily) Why does OBA have Lew and Merle come together here? Merle, photographer and lightning rod salesman in film noir LA? Where Hollywood is happening. From takoitov at hotmail.com Tue Jul 22 17:04:41 2008 From: takoitov at hotmail.com (Ya Sam) Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2008 05:04:41 +0700 Subject: Theroux on Pynchon (a bit) Message-ID: Sorry if posted before. A longish interview with Alexander Theroux about Laura Warholic. Somewhere in the middle he discusses P. and 'Against the Day'. http://cdn3.libsyn.com/colinmarshall/MOI_Alexander_Theroux.mp3?nvb=20080722212818&nva=20080723212818&t=0ee3cd88427ddb99d741d _________________________________________________________________ Invite your mail contacts to join your friends list with Windows Live Spaces. It's easy! http://spaces.live.com/spacesapi.aspx?wx_action=create&wx_url=/friends.aspx&mkt=en-us From scuffling at gmail.com Tue Jul 22 17:11:01 2008 From: scuffling at gmail.com (Henry) Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2008 18:11:01 -0400 Subject: FW: Eich bin ein Berliner - NOT DONUT Message-ID: <001701c8ec47$d3d899c0$7b89cd40$@com> Thanks, Lisa! Um, maybe KO was joking… In a New York Review of Books (NOT the No-Yuck-Err!) Review of Thomas Pynchon’s Against the Day (great book, btw): http://www.nybooks.com/articles/19771 At one point Pynchon inserts Kit Traverse into a Göttingen insane asylum apparently just so he can set up the story of a patient there who "has come to believe that he is a certain well-known pastry of Berlin—similar to your own American, as you would say, Jelly-doughnut." The patient, who enjoys being powdered with Puderzucker and placed on a shelf, declares, naturally, "ICH BIN EIN BERLINER!" More info from http://against-the-day.pynchonwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=K Kennedy, John Fitzgerald 626; "Ich bin ein Berliner" ("I am a citizen of Berlin") is a famous quotation from a June 26, 1963 speech of U.S. President John F. Kennedy in West Berlin. He was underlining the support of the United States for democratic West Germany shortly after the Soviet-supported Communist state of East Germany erected the Berlin Wall as a barrier to prevent movement between East and West. There is an urban myth that he should have said "Ich bin Berliner" ("I am from Berlin") and that by adding the article "ein" ("a"), he was a non-human Berliner; More about this at Wikipedia Henry (I am not a donut) Mu Please contribute to Obama if you can: http://my.barackobama.com/page/outreach/view/main/PListe4Obama If you appreciate this message, or my Obama blog, http://my.barackobama.com/page/community/blog/henrymu , then how about being my friend on the My.BarackObama.com network: http://my.barackobama.com/page/socialnet/register/33qzpcr2sl ________________________________________ From: Lisa Pease "Eich bin ein Berliner" means just what Kennedy meant - "I am a Berliner." I love how these CIA-spread myths end up as the gospel truth, when they are nothing of the sort. Even Keith Olbermann fell for this one. No, Kennedy did not say he was a donut. He said, "Eich bin ein Berliner." And if you look up Berliner in a German dictionary, you will find that while donut is o ne meaning, the other meaning, the one Kennedy was obviously saying, is this: "to be born in Berlin; to be a native Berliner; to be Berlin-born" I am never surprised to hear the ignorant say Kennedy said this "wrong," when he didn't. But my heart sank when good ol' Keith Olbermann fell for the disinformation. Wow. I guess if a few people say it, it's suddenly true, eh? Will all of you re ading this please help spread the TRUTH about what Kennedy said? No doubt this will come up in the next few days as Obama prepares his own version of such a speech for Berlin. Lisa Pease Blog: http://realhistoryarchives.blogspot.com Site: http://www.realhistoryarchives.com Book: The Assassinations: Probe Magazine on JFK, MLK, RFK and Malcolm X ------------------------------------------------------------------------- This email was sent to 283 members of Writers for Obama This email was sent from Lisa Pease lpease at gte.net Listserv email address: WritersforObama at groups.barackobama.com Your reply will be sent to: WritersforObama at groups.barackobama.com Unsubscribe or change your email settings: http://my.barackobama.com/page/group/WritersforObama/listserv-remove ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From takoitov at hotmail.com Tue Jul 22 17:40:22 2008 From: takoitov at hotmail.com (Ya Sam) Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2008 05:40:22 +0700 Subject: Theroux on Pynchon (a bit) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On the difficulty of Pynchon's books: 'I'm often in many many places left completely outside that cathedral, when I'd like to be a worshipper inside. I understand. maybe, 82% of his books' _________________________________________________________________ Explore the seven wonders of the world http://search.msn.com/results.aspx?q=7+wonders+world&mkt=en-US&form=QBRE From markekohut at yahoo.com Tue Jul 22 18:31:07 2008 From: markekohut at yahoo.com (Mark Kohut) Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2008 16:31:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: AtD (37) p.1048 great picnic, "the real America"? mayonnaise Message-ID: <463445.5561.qm@web38407.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Paul Mackin sez: The state picnics are well done. Been to a number of them. Monte Davis wrote: "I have only Texas, Maine, and mid-Atlantic picnics to go on, but the potato-salad paragraph on p. 1048 is pitch-perfect in both dialogue (OK, multiple mayonnaise monologues) and narration. It's up there with the best of Mamet or Elmore Leonard for American voice on the page." MD notices mayonnaise! I didn't. Cf. the mayonnaise motif (perhaps from its origin in Brautigan?) elsewhere. Is mayonaise Mid-America [P's word] metaphorically?? Therefore the real America? Great, grrreat bit on theories of potato salad, imho. Beautiful love of food writing.... Feels like this is part of TRPs vision of life in a community....lively, even sometimes, screaming, discussions about something --food---that matters to all, by all parties. Are community picnics, as so wonderfully captured herein, the vision of harmonic, small village America out of De Tocqueville, Hofstadter or, in the practicing, the theories of the Founding Fathers? P's baseline of love for the best of America? That 'old time America'? Merle, paranoid, {fearful]...."P.E." Pacific Electric--bad shit--- Any photo [of someone in real life] can be run through the rig [?] and their life since the taking to the present can be known..???? Uh, wow, yes?....runs through time past and ends in the present time with a PICTURE of where the person was RIGHT NOW?....like a movie of their real life?..[reel life?].........enough to make anyone paranoid....what one photograph can do; no wonder Pynchon might fear getting his picture taken.......(like how some computer programs can 'age' a face [Which program the NYTimes Book Review did with the famous Pynchon photo last year, got an aged Pynchon and, cruelly, less-than-thoughtlessly the editor/writer threw about the worst stereotype out (as a stupid joke, I guess.)]) I won't repeat it, being earnestly humorless about it. Only more than a computer simulation....the past CAUGHT. Imagine what spies could do with this....... What's it mean here, I ask???? From dpayne1912 at hotmail.com Tue Jul 22 22:49:23 2008 From: dpayne1912 at hotmail.com (David Payne) Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2008 03:49:23 +0000 Subject: Trek, Zone, Peaks Message-ID: Anyone solve this issue for Otto? Cuz I gotta friend in France suffering the same insult. On Mon, 21 Jul 2008 (03:29:50 -0700), Richard (richardryannyc at yahoo.com) wrote: > If the CBS site is doing IP address detection, which most big media sites are in fact doing these days, then I believe Otto would have to come in through some sort of proxy or VPN which is exposing a US-assigned IP address to the sites being browsed. >> On Mon, Jul 21, 2008 at 4:14 AM, Otto >> wrote: >> >>> Is it only open to US-viewers? >>> >>> "This content is currently unavailable." _________________________________________________________________ Time for vacation? WIN what you need- enter now! http://www.gowindowslive.com/summergiveaway/?ocid=tag_jlyhm From monte.davis at verizon.net Wed Jul 23 03:32:43 2008 From: monte.davis at verizon.net (Monte Davis) Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2008 04:32:43 -0400 Subject: AtD (37) p.1045 Merle R. appears, old farmland, flirting? In-Reply-To: <311438.73702.qm@web38408.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Mark Kohut muses: > Why does OBA have Lew and Merle come together here? Merle, > photographer and lightning rod salesman in film noir LA? > Where Hollywood is happening. Where modernity -- or a flickering electro-fictional projection, maybe all we get, maybe all there is -- is being packaged for mass distribution. Where we look to see how our heroes and goddesses behave (yo, Brangelina!), and all the stories trade DNA in elevator pitches. From monte.davis at verizon.net Wed Jul 23 03:48:05 2008 From: monte.davis at verizon.net (Monte Davis) Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2008 04:48:05 -0400 Subject: AtDTDA (37) 1046/47"I'd've let you do the cooking" In-Reply-To: <072220081525.15166.4885FBE70000146300003B3E2216566276040A0B0E0A9C0B020E0402070D019D@comcast.net> Message-ID: Robin sez: > *Born out of a need to justify exploitation, "The Age of > Reason" so ably parodied in Mason & Dixon was more like "The Age of > Rationalization." Not simply out of its need to explain away "the > supernatural" but also in the sense of narrowing options until the > line to the abattoir singles up, nice and smooth. Which was also the line away from routine childhood death by dysentery etc, slavery, hereditary nobility, and so many other nostalgic features. Not to fault the efficiency of the Modern Abbatoir, but somehow there are far more of us than in those sweet gracious holistic harmonious pre-Enlightenment times. From ottosell at googlemail.com Wed Jul 23 05:17:04 2008 From: ottosell at googlemail.com (Otto) Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2008 12:17:04 +0200 Subject: FW: Eich bin ein Berliner - NOT DONUT In-Reply-To: <001701c8ec47$d3d899c0$7b89cd40$@com> References: <001701c8ec47$d3d899c0$7b89cd40$@com> Message-ID: I've always expected Mr. Bush jr coming to Hamburg once ... I can almost hear him saying: "I'm a Hamburger!" From madame.brady at gmail.com Wed Jul 23 05:26:02 2008 From: madame.brady at gmail.com (Tara Brady) Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2008 11:26:02 +0100 Subject: Trek, Zone, Peaks In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: This site mirrors the CBS content. Go here for all Zone episodes... http://www.surfthechannel.com/show/television/The_Twilight_Zone.html The other shows you mention seem to be there, though not all the Peaks episodes. Sadly, for the complete suite, Europeans are still stuck with the rather pricey subscription fee demanded by... http://www.davidlynch.com/ Still, who needs TV that isn't bookended by Rod Serling? 2008/7/23 David Payne : > > Anyone solve this issue for Otto? Cuz I gotta friend in France suffering > the same insult. > > On Mon, 21 Jul 2008 (03:29:50 -0700), Richard (richardryannyc at yahoo.com) > wrote: > > > If the CBS site is doing IP address detection, which most big media sites > are in fact doing these days, then I believe Otto would have to come in > through some sort of proxy or VPN which is exposing a US-assigned IP address > to the sites being browsed. > > >> On Mon, Jul 21, 2008 at 4:14 AM, Otto > >> wrote: > >> > >>> Is it only open to US-viewers? > >>> > >>> "This content is currently unavailable." > > _________________________________________________________________ > Time for vacation? WIN what you need- enter now! > http://www.gowindowslive.com/summergiveaway/?ocid=tag_jlyhm > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From against.the.dave at gmail.com Wed Jul 23 05:35:24 2008 From: against.the.dave at gmail.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2008 05:35:24 -0500 Subject: Trek, Zone, Peaks In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Jul 23, 2008 at 5:26 AM, Tara Brady wrote: > This site mirrors the CBS content. > > http://www.surfthechannel.com/show/television/The_Twilight_Zone.html Thanks! There is a LOT on there ... http://www.surfthechannel.com/ From against.the.dave at gmail.com Wed Jul 23 06:24:00 2008 From: against.the.dave at gmail.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2008 06:24:00 -0500 Subject: Thomas Pynchon Message-ID: http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2008/jun/11/thomaspynchon From against.the.dave at gmail.com Wed Jul 23 06:38:07 2008 From: against.the.dave at gmail.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2008 06:38:07 -0500 Subject: Don DeLillo Message-ID: Did you know? DeLillo's face was once used by the New York Times to promote the car manufacturer Oldsmobile. http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2008/jun/11/dondelillo Would you buy a new car from this novelist? http://www.salon.com/media/poni/1998/07/22poni.html Authors of Intrigue http://www.nytimes.com/partners/microsites/intrigue/archive/archive.html We're sorry, access to http://www.nytimes.com/partners/microsites/intrigue/archive/archive.html has been blocked by the site owner via robots.txt. http://web.archive.org/web/*/http://www.nytimes.com/partners/microsites/intrigue/archive/archive.html From markekohut at yahoo.com Wed Jul 23 06:41:31 2008 From: markekohut at yahoo.com (Mark Kohut) Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2008 04:41:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: AtD (37) p.1049-1050 "Intolerance", changing the past, bi-location, multiple worlds Message-ID: <933181.14228.qm@web38405.mail.mud.yahoo.com> p. 1049-1050 "hallucinatory sets from the movie Intolerance [Or Love's Struggles Through the Ages]....remember bit on the the infinite varieties of love back in the Cyprian section? Sees Jardine go thru an "iron gate"--not good--, Carefree Court [obviously ironic] and sit at a luxurious pool, deciding something. Then Lew learns the machine can go into the past life of anyone's photo!.....even past events like the Times bombing can be seen (like surveillance cameras?).......but they have to get it "just right" or the people might choose a different 'future" [at that point in the past]. Does this remind anyone else of what has been said about quantum physics at the quantam level?....the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle in effect?..... "The uncertainty principle is related to the observer effect, with which it is often conflated. In the Copenhagen interpretation of quantum mechanics, the uncertainty principle is a theoretical limitation of how small this observer effect can be. Any measurement of the position with accuracy Δx collapses the quantum state making the standard deviation of the momentum Δp larger than . While this is true in all interpretations, in many modern interpretations of quantum mechanics (many-worlds and variants), the quantum state itself is the fundamental physical quantity, not the position or momentum. Taking this perspective, while the momentum and position are still uncertain, the uncertainty is an effect caused not just by observation, but by any entanglement with the environment." ----wikipedia This is always of the present, of course, whereas TRP has set up a similarity that can change the past.....linked to bi-location......as a metaphor, it implies if we do not look correctly at pictures in the past, the future from that point, therefore the present, can be different... Is this about, via metaphor, how we perceive our lives ultimately?.... "but thinking makes it so"---Shakespeare "usually to look back in the past it's got to be a negative value"---is this some kind of overarching generalization of a theme as stated?... "looking back---nostalgia? like Lot's wife?---is not a good thing?.... Is it a metaphor for we readers looking at History (the past)....if we had looked at it rightly, it would have been different?.....Since we have NOT seen History correctly, it has changed the present? a different path.....He remembers bi-location........Roswell is almost annoyed when Lew questions him about the subject's possible other lived lives.............Of course that is possible, knows Roswell. [‘Multiple Worlds,” blurted Nigel, who had floated in from elsewhere. ‘Precisely!’ cried the Professor. ‘The Ripper’s “Whitechapel” was a sort of momentary antechamber in space-time… one might imagine a giant railway depot, with thousands of gates disposed radially in all dimensions, leading to tracks of departure to all manner of alternative Histories…’ ] earlier in AtD. Roswell associations: He must be named after the most famous UFO incident (and place), although that did not happen until 1947. : "The United States military maintains that what was recovered was a top-secret research balloon that had crashed. Many UFO proponents believe the wreckage was of a crashed alien craft and that the military covered up the craft's recovery. "---wikipedia From robert_mahnke at earthlink.net Wed Jul 23 07:05:03 2008 From: robert_mahnke at earthlink.net (Robert Mahnke) Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2008 08:05:03 -0400 Subject: We are lost to any sense of a continuous tradition. Message-ID: <000301c8ecbc$572ad210$7801a8c0@Minerva> I saw this last night and thought it had curious echoes of AtD: Perhaps history in this century, though Eigenvalue, is rippled with gathers in its fabric such that if we are situated, as Stencil seemed to be, at the bottom of a fold, it's impossible to determine warp, woof or pattern anywhere else. By virtue, however, of existing in one gather it is assumed there are others, compartmented off into sinuous cycles each of which come to assume greater importance than the weave itself and destroy any continuity. Thus it is that we are charmed by the funny-looking automobiles of the '30's, the curious fashions of the '20's, the peculiar moral habits of our grandparents. We produce and attend musical comedies about them and are conned into a false memory, a phony nostalgia about what they were. We are accordingly lost to any sense of a continuous tradition. Perhaps if we lived on a crest, things would be different. We could at least see. V. 155-56 (1986 ed.). -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From markekohut at yahoo.com Wed Jul 23 08:20:09 2008 From: markekohut at yahoo.com (Mark Kohut) Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2008 06:20:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: We are lost to any sense of a continuous tradition. In-Reply-To: <000301c8ecbc$572ad210$7801a8c0@Minerva> Message-ID: <320283.40259.qm@web38404.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Perhaps if we > lived on a crest, things would be different. We could at > least see. > Do the Chums "live' on a crest, so to speak? --- On Wed, 7/23/08, Robert Mahnke wrote: > From: Robert Mahnke > Subject: We are lost to any sense of a continuous tradition. > To: pynchon-l at waste.org > Date: Wednesday, July 23, 2008, 8:05 AM > I saw this last night and thought it had curious echoes of > AtD: > > > > Perhaps history in this century, though Eigenvalue, is > rippled with gathers > in its fabric such that if we are situated, as Stencil > seemed to be, at the > bottom of a fold, it's impossible to determine warp, > woof or pattern > anywhere else. By virtue, however, of existing in one > gather it is assumed > there are others, compartmented off into sinuous cycles > each of which come > to assume greater importance than the weave itself and > destroy any > continuity. Thus it is that we are charmed by the > funny-looking automobiles > of the '30's, the curious fashions of the > '20's, the peculiar moral habits > of our grandparents. We produce and attend musical > comedies about them and > are conned into a false memory, a phony nostalgia about > what they were. We > are accordingly lost to any sense of a continuous > tradition. Perhaps if we > lived on a crest, things would be different. We could at > least see. > > > > V. 155-56 (1986 ed.). From robinlandseadel at comcast.net Wed Jul 23 08:55:46 2008 From: robinlandseadel at comcast.net (robinlandseadel at comcast.net) Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2008 13:55:46 +0000 Subject: AtdTDA: Your Answers Questioned Message-ID: <072320081355.11891.488738620003DDA600002E732214756402040A0B0E0A9C0B020E0402070D019D@comcast.net> Robert Mahnke: I saw this last night and thought it had curious echoes of AtD: Perhaps history in this century, though Eigenvalue, is rippled with gathers in its fabric such that if we are situated, as Stencil seemed to be, at the bottom of a fold, it�s impossible to determine warp, woof or pattern anywhere else. By virtue, however, of existing in one gather it is assumed there are others, compartmented off into sinuous cycles each of which come to assume greater importance than the weave itself and destroy any continuity. Thus it is that we are charmed by the funny-looking automobiles of the �30�s, the curious fashions of the �20�s, the peculiar moral habits of our grandparents. We produce and attend musical comedies about them and are conned into a false memory, a phony nostalgia about what they were. We are accordingly lost to any sense of a continuous tradition. Perhaps if we lived on a crest, things would be different. We could at least see. V. 155-56 (1986 ed.). And strong echos of Julius Evola as well: Modern civilization stands on one side and on the other the entirety of all the civilizations that have preceded it (for the West, we can put the dividing line at the end of the Middle Ages). At this point the rupture is complete. Apart from the multitudinous variety of its forms, premodern civilization, which we might as well call "traditional," means something quite different. For there are two worlds, one of which has separated itself by cutting off nearly every contact with the past. For the great majority of moderns, that means any possibility of understanding the traditional world has been completely lost. "The Hermetic Tradition", Julius Evola, page 14 Mark Kohut: Is it a metaphor for we readers looking at History (the past)....if we had looked at it rightly, it would have been different?.....Since we have NOT seen History correctly, it has changed the present? a different path.....He remembers bi-location........ Roswell is almost annoyed when Lew questions him about the subject's possible other lived lives .............Of course that is possible, knows Roswell. Yup, Area 51 revisited: "Scully said to Muldar: "Get me a Nun!" I mean, let us not forget the incredible wealth of cheap tricks and bottom bracket puns OBA employs�bilocation* is also a cheap trick, thus "Roswell." Pynchon is no mere satirist, he's a satirist devoted to Road Runner cartoons and really bad puns. The fabric of time [more like a chunk of Iceland Spar, come to think of it] is trespassed by anachronism everywhere�"Burgher King" anyone?�and on some level Yashmeen, Lew and Cyprian are trespassers from our time. *Echoing "Nick Danger�Third Eye in: 'Cut 'Em Off at the Past'", where discontinunities in the fabric of time form the center of the plot and the program ends with an interruption from FDR, announcing the United States' complete and total surrender to the Japanese. As the "NIck Danger" resumes we hear Nicky-nick-nick-nick-nick say: The great prince issues commands, Founds states, vests families with fiefs. Inferior people should not be employed. . . . .from Richard Wilhelm's translation from the original Chinese of "The Army" from the I Ching, OBA reiterating the shared theme of absurdist resistance�a hallmark of both Pynchon and the Firesign Theater. 7. Shih / The Army -- -- -- -- above K'un The Receptive, Earth -- -- -- -- ----- below K'an The Abysmal, Water -- -- The Judgement The Army. The army needs perseverance And a strong man. Good fortune without blame. The Image In the middle of the earth is water: The image of the Army. Thus the superior man increases his masses By generosity toward the people. The Lines Six at the beginning means: An army must set forth in proper order. If the order is not good, misfortune threatens. () Nine in the second place means: In the midst of the army. Good fortune. No blame. The king bestows a triple decoration. Six in the third place means: Perchance the army carries corpses in the wagon. Misfortune. Six in the fourth place means: The army retreats. No blame. () Six in the fifth place means: There is game in the field. It furthers one to catch it. Without blame. Let the eldest lead the army. The younger transports corpses; Then perseverance brings misfortune. Six at the top means: The great prince issues commands, Founds states, vests families with fiefs. Inferior people should not be employed. http://www.religiousworlds.com/taoism/ichingtx.html . From robert_mahnke at earthlink.net Wed Jul 23 09:02:05 2008 From: robert_mahnke at earthlink.net (Robert Mahnke) Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2008 10:02:05 -0400 (GMT-04:00) Subject: whoops Message-ID: <10563143.1216821725816.JavaMail.root@mswamui-bichon.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Sorry: In the first line, that should be "thought Eigenvalue". -----Original Message----- >From: robinlandseadel at comcast.net >Sent: Jul 23, 2008 9:55 AM >To: P-list >Subject: AtdTDA: Your Answers Questioned > > Robert Mahnke: > I saw this last night and thought it had curious echoes of AtD: > > Perhaps history in this century, though Eigenvalue, is rippled > with gathers in its fabric such that if we are situated, as > Stencil seemed to be, at the bottom of a fold, it’s impossible > to determine warp, woof or pattern anywhere else. By virtue, > however, of existing in one gather it is assumed there are > others, compartmented off into sinuous cycles each of which > come to assume greater importance than the weave itself and > destroy any continuity. Thus it is that we are charmed by the > funny-looking automobiles of the ‘30’s, the curious fashions of > the ‘20’s, the peculiar moral habits of our grandparents. We > produce and attend musical comedies about them and are > conned into a false memory, a phony nostalgia about what > they were. We are accordingly lost to any sense of a > continuous tradition. Perhaps if we lived on a crest, things > would be different. We could at least see. > > V. 155-56 (1986 ed.). > >And strong echos of Julius Evola as well: > > Modern civilization stands on one side and on the other > the entirety of all the civilizations that have preceded it > (for the West, we can put the dividing line at the end of > the Middle Ages). At this point the rupture is complete. > Apart from the multitudinous variety of its forms, > premodern civilization, which we might as well call > "traditional," means something quite different. For > there are two worlds, one of which has separated > itself by cutting off nearly every contact with the past. > For the great majority of moderns, that means any > possibility of understanding the traditional world has > been completely lost. > > "The Hermetic Tradition", Julius Evola, page 14 > > Mark Kohut: > Is it a metaphor for we readers looking at History > (the past)....if we had looked at it rightly, it would > have been different?.....Since we have NOT seen > History correctly, it has changed the present? > > a different path.....He remembers bi-location........ > Roswell is almost annoyed when Lew questions > him about the subject's possible other lived lives > .............Of course that is possible, knows Roswell. > >Yup, Area 51 revisited: >"Scully said to Muldar: >"Get me a Nun!" > >I mean, let us not forget the incredible wealth of cheap tricks >and bottom bracket puns OBA employs—bilocation* is also >a cheap trick, thus "Roswell." Pynchon is no mere satirist, >he's a satirist devoted to Road Runner cartoons and really >bad puns. The fabric of time [more like a chunk of Iceland >Spar, come to think of it] is trespassed by anachronism >everywhere—"Burgher King" anyone?—and on some level >Yashmeen, Lew and Cyprian are trespassers from our time. > >*Echoing "Nick Danger—Third Eye in: 'Cut 'Em Off at the Past'", >where discontinunities in the fabric of time form the center of >the plot and the program ends with an interruption from FDR, >announcing the United States' complete and total surrender >to the Japanese. As the "NIck Danger" resumes we hear >Nicky-nick-nick-nick-nick say: > > The great prince issues commands, > Founds states, vests families with fiefs. > Inferior people should not be employed. > >. . . .from Richard Wilhelm's translation from the original Chinese of >"The Army" from the I Ching, OBA reiterating the shared theme of >absurdist resistance—a hallmark of both Pynchon and the Firesign >Theater. > > 7. Shih / The Army > -- -- > -- -- above K'un The Receptive, Earth > -- -- > -- -- > ----- below K'an The Abysmal, Water > -- -- > The Judgement > The Army. The army needs perseverance > And a strong man. > Good fortune without blame. > The Image > In the middle of the earth is water: > The image of the Army. > Thus the superior man increases his masses > By generosity toward the people. > The Lines > Six at the beginning means: > An army must set forth in proper order. > If the order is not good, misfortune threatens. > () Nine in the second place means: > In the midst of the army. > Good fortune. No blame. > The king bestows a triple decoration. > Six in the third place means: > Perchance the army carries corpses in the wagon. > Misfortune. > Six in the fourth place means: > The army retreats. No blame. > () Six in the fifth place means: > There is game in the field. > It furthers one to catch it. > Without blame. > Let the eldest lead the army. > The younger transports corpses; > Then perseverance brings misfortune. > Six at the top means: > The great prince issues commands, > Founds states, vests families with fiefs. > Inferior people should not be employed. > >http://www.religiousworlds.com/taoism/ichingtx.html >. From robinlandseadel at comcast.net Wed Jul 23 09:33:41 2008 From: robinlandseadel at comcast.net (robinlandseadel at comcast.net) Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2008 14:33:41 +0000 Subject: whoops [Your Answers Questioned, lost to any sense of a continuous tradition.} Message-ID: <072320081433.13970.4887414500033E45000036922214756402040A0B0E0A9C0B020E0402070D019D@comcast.net> Well, thank Goddess that I read it as "thought". Ya musta had high quality intent when you tossed off this missive. Now mind you, if I fold staple and mutilate it. . . . "�Pro general continuation and in particular explication to your singular interrogation our asserveralation. Ladigent, pals will smile but me and Frisky Shorty, my inmate friend, as is uncommon struck on poplar poetry, and a few fleabedsides round at West Pauper Bosquet, was glad to beback again with chaps and just arguing friendlylike at the Doddercan Easehouse having a wee chatty with our hosty in his comfy estably over the old middlesex party and his moral turps, meaning the flu, pok, pox, and mizzles, grip, gripe , gleet and sprue, caries, rabies, numps and dumps." "Ole Whatzitsname", H.C.E randomly [completely] chosen page 523, so help me Cerridwen. . . . .and if that don't discontinue you. . . . Looking at the cover of the QP of AtD: http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/41fafkIky5L._SS500_.jpg . . . .the furturist painting rejects contours, the rounded, the natural in favor of light chopped into discontinuous squares, the sort of light/shadow relation found in electric streets at night, the folds and ripples in the lay of the land rendered invisible by the overlay of the modern nightscape of urban light. -------------- Original message ---------------------- From: Robert Mahnke > > Sorry: In the first line, that should be "thought Eigenvalue". From paul.mackin at verizon.net Wed Jul 23 10:00:14 2008 From: paul.mackin at verizon.net (Paul Mackin) Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2008 11:00:14 -0400 Subject: We are lost to any sense of a continuous tradition. In-Reply-To: <320283.40259.qm@web38404.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <320283.40259.qm@web38404.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4887477E.8080906@verizon.net> Mark Kohut wrote: > Perhaps if we > >> lived on a crest, things would be different. We could at >> least see. >> >> > Do the Chums "live' on a crest, so to speak? > Either that or the non line of sight conditions aren't too bad farther down in the valley. Don't people "see" into the future at various places in the book? Grammar question: At the crest would we be able to see "farther" into the future, or "further?" The teacher always said "farther" pertains to distance, but what pertains to space-time? > > --- On Wed, 7/23/08, Robert Mahnke wrote: > > >> From: Robert Mahnke >> Subject: We are lost to any sense of a continuous tradition. >> To: pynchon-l at waste.org >> Date: Wednesday, July 23, 2008, 8:05 AM >> I saw this last night and thought it had curious echoes of >> AtD: >> >> >> >> Perhaps history in this century, though Eigenvalue, is >> rippled with gathers >> in its fabric such that if we are situated, as Stencil >> seemed to be, at the >> bottom of a fold, it's impossible to determine warp, >> woof or pattern >> anywhere else. By virtue, however, of existing in one >> gather it is assumed >> there are others, compartmented off into sinuous cycles >> each of which come >> to assume greater importance than the weave itself and >> destroy any >> continuity. Thus it is that we are charmed by the >> funny-looking automobiles >> of the '30's, the curious fashions of the >> '20's, the peculiar moral habits >> of our grandparents. We produce and attend musical >> comedies about them and >> are conned into a false memory, a phony nostalgia about >> what they were. We >> are accordingly lost to any sense of a continuous >> tradition. Perhaps if we >> lived on a crest, things would be different. We could at >> least see. >> >> >> >> V. 155-56 (1986 ed.). >> > > > > > > From markekohut at yahoo.com Wed Jul 23 11:26:38 2008 From: markekohut at yahoo.com (Mark Kohut) Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2008 09:26:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: from a website: on further and the future Message-ID: <38895.87359.qm@web38406.mail.mud.yahoo.com> . further into the future, this could ultimately allow quadriplegics and paraplegics to walk again. Other applications are likely to include correcting the faulty circuits that create epileptic episodes and creating transport systems for slow release of insulin to diabetics. From miksaapja at gmail.com Wed Jul 23 11:48:22 2008 From: miksaapja at gmail.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?J=E1nos_Sz=E9kely?=) Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2008 18:48:22 +0200 Subject: GR technical question - P.A. Message-ID: <8ad436340807230948i5af72da5uff742c2e9073f77@mail.gmail.com> I need some help with a piece of communications technology. In GR (the U-boat scene), V388.34 , "there's a long smash of static out of the P.A." Now what does P.A. stand for? Thx, János -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From paul.mackin at verizon.net Wed Jul 23 12:35:28 2008 From: paul.mackin at verizon.net (Paul Mackin) Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2008 13:35:28 -0400 Subject: We are lost to any sense of a continuous tradition. In-Reply-To: <000301c8ecbc$572ad210$7801a8c0@Minerva> References: <000301c8ecbc$572ad210$7801a8c0@Minerva> Message-ID: <48876BE0.7000600@verizon.net> Robert Mahnke wrote: > > I saw this last night and thought it had curious echoes of AtD: > > Perhaps history in this century, though Eigenvalue, is rippled with > gathers in its fabric such that if we are situated, as Stencil seemed > to be, at the bottom of a fold, it’s impossible to determine warp, > woof or pattern anywhere else. By virtue, however, of existing in one > gather it is assumed there are others, compartmented off into sinuous > cycles each of which come to assume greater importance than the weave > itself and destroy any continuity. Thus it is that we are charmed by > the funny-looking automobiles of the ‘30’s, the curious fashions of > the ‘20’s, the peculiar moral habits of our grandparents. We produce > and attend musical comedies about them and are conned into a false > memory, a phony nostalgia about what they were. We are accordingly > lost to any sense of a continuous tradition. Perhaps if we lived on a > crest, things would be different. We could at least see. > > V. 155-56 (1986 ed.). > Retired Jean-Luc Godard seems to assign some blame for the condition noted by Eigenvalue on the current practice of filming in digital. Today, living in “self-imposed exile” in Switzerland, Mr. Godard told Mr. Brody that young filmmakers “don’t know the past” and that “with digital, there is no past, not even technically,” because looking at a previous shot “doesn’t take any time to get there. ... There’s an entire time that no longer exist (book review in today's NY Times) http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/23/books/23basi.html?ref=books From against.the.dave at gmail.com Wed Jul 23 12:50:29 2008 From: against.the.dave at gmail.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2008 12:50:29 -0500 Subject: GR technical question - P.A. In-Reply-To: <8ad436340807230948i5af72da5uff742c2e9073f77@mail.gmail.com> References: <8ad436340807230948i5af72da5uff742c2e9073f77@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Jul 23, 2008 at 11:48 AM, János Székely wrote: > I need some help with a piece of communications technology. > In GR (the U-boat scene), V388.34 , "there's a long smash of static out of > the P.A." > Now what does P.A. stand for? Public Address (System) From miksaapja at gmail.com Wed Jul 23 13:00:12 2008 From: miksaapja at gmail.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?J=E1nos_Sz=E9kely?=) Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2008 20:00:12 +0200 Subject: GR technical question - P.A. In-Reply-To: References: <8ad436340807230948i5af72da5uff742c2e9073f77@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <8ad436340807231100l49ae6e6esca528f1304aeed08@mail.gmail.com> Thx. That means basically a loudspeaker in submarine context? 2008/7/23 Dave Monroe : > On Wed, Jul 23, 2008 at 11:48 AM, János Székely > wrote: > > > I need some help with a piece of communications technology. > > In GR (the U-boat scene), V388.34 , "there's a long smash of static out > of > > the P.A." > > Now what does P.A. stand for? > > Public Address (System) > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From against.the.dave at gmail.com Wed Jul 23 13:30:46 2008 From: against.the.dave at gmail.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2008 13:30:46 -0500 Subject: GR technical question - P.A. In-Reply-To: <8ad436340807231100l49ae6e6esca528f1304aeed08@mail.gmail.com> References: <8ad436340807230948i5af72da5uff742c2e9073f77@mail.gmail.com> <8ad436340807231100l49ae6e6esca528f1304aeed08@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Jul 23, 2008 at 1:00 PM, János Székely wrote: > Thx. > That means basically a loudspeaker in submarine context? Exactly. From against.the.dave at gmail.com Wed Jul 23 13:46:05 2008 From: against.the.dave at gmail.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2008 13:46:05 -0500 Subject: GR technical question - P.A. In-Reply-To: <300D3CC3638240729551E05735F24E1E@SimonBryquerPC> References: <8ad436340807230948i5af72da5uff742c2e9073f77@mail.gmail.com> <8ad436340807231100l49ae6e6esca528f1304aeed08@mail.gmail.com> <300D3CC3638240729551E05735F24E1E@SimonBryquerPC> Message-ID: On Wed, Jul 23, 2008 at 1:40 PM, Simon Bryquer wrote: > Actually PA means Public Address via a loudspeaker. Over a Public Address (P.A.) system ... From robinlandseadel at comcast.net Wed Jul 23 15:45:14 2008 From: robinlandseadel at comcast.net (robinlandseadel at comcast.net) Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2008 20:45:14 +0000 Subject: GR technical question - P.A. Message-ID: <072320082045.16097.4887985A000334B200003EE12215578674040A0B0E0A9C0B020E0402070D019D@comcast.net> Public Address system. TRP's keen on distortion and discontinuity, haven't you noticed? -------------- Original message ---------------------- From: "J�nos Sz�kely" > I need some help with a piece of communications technology. > In GR (the U-boat scene), V388.34 , "there's a long smash of static out of > the P.A." > Now what does P.A. stand for? > > Thx, > J�nos > -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: "J�nos Sz�kely" Subject: GR technical question - P.A. Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2008 17:15:39 +0000 Size: 764 URL: From scuffling at gmail.com Wed Jul 23 16:23:29 2008 From: scuffling at gmail.com (Henry) Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2008 17:23:29 -0400 Subject: AtD Audio Book Message-ID: <00bc01c8ed0a$5b5c2340$121469c0$@com> Has anyone heard AtD on CD? http://austinpubliclibraryblog.blogspot.com/2008/07/dont-forget-audiobooks.html Henry (Doh-nut) Mu Please contribute to Obama if you can: http://my.barackobama.com/page/outreach/view/main/PListe4Obama If you appreciate this message, or my Obama blog, http://my.barackobama.com/page/community/blog/henrymu , then how about being my friend on the My.BarackObama.com network: http://my.barackobama.com/page/socialnet/register/33qzpcr2sl From sbryquer at nyc.rr.com Wed Jul 23 13:40:42 2008 From: sbryquer at nyc.rr.com (Simon Bryquer) Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2008 14:40:42 -0400 Subject: GR technical question - P.A. In-Reply-To: References: <8ad436340807230948i5af72da5uff742c2e9073f77@mail.gmail.com> <8ad436340807231100l49ae6e6esca528f1304aeed08@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <300D3CC3638240729551E05735F24E1E@SimonBryquerPC> Actually PA means Public Address via a loudspeaker. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave Monroe" To: "János Székely" Cc: "Pynchon-l" Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2008 2:30 PM Subject: Re: GR technical question - P.A. > On Wed, Jul 23, 2008 at 1:00 PM, János Székely > wrote: > >> Thx. >> That means basically a loudspeaker in submarine context? > > Exactly. From wilsonistrey at gmail.com Wed Jul 23 17:08:42 2008 From: wilsonistrey at gmail.com (Brock Vond) Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2008 18:08:42 -0400 Subject: Enzian and Tchitcherine In-Reply-To: <830c13f40807180811g25b9aa8jdb69f5ccad9bd9bb@mail.gmail.com> References: <830c13f40807171130s635430aaod31f5e9297a91b74@mail.gmail.com> <7d461dc80807180634k23e8a77dvef83faea2f10f3f6@mail.gmail.com> <830c13f40807180811g25b9aa8jdb69f5ccad9bd9bb@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: i think / agree with critics like Eddins and Moore... it's because tchitcherine and slothrop are both terrified of (and seeking) "blackness" (S-Gerat [sic?] and Enzian [sic]) they also double each other through most of the novel... both quests have holy centers (test stand and Kirghiz light) both are monitored by shadow-powers... both experience a magical removal from the text... (slothrop literally and T- through Geli's earthly magic).... B If you trace out Gottfried and Slothrop's geographical journies... they are both opposite parabolas... Slothrop from London to S. France to N Germany... Gottfreid... well... Peenemunde [sic] in the rocket therefore creating his arc... to London (if we assume that regardless of the book's fantastical possibilities and blicero's obsessions, Gottfried met a death somewhere in London the parabolas are mirror images) ...and I wonder what one would find if they compared Slothrop and T-'s or T- and Enzian's... sorry for misspellings of names... i didn't feel like checking and correcting. On Jul 18, 2008, at 11:11 AM, rich wrote: > Tchitcherine does mention while being interrogated that he objects to > being passed over which connects to the Herero's concept of same > during their extermination and Vaslav's own failure to move past the > leading edges of revelation > > rich > > On Fri, Jul 18, 2008 at 9:34 AM, David Morris > wrote: >> He's trying to eliminate his "shadow," his black (br)other. >> >> On Thu, Jul 17, 2008 at 1:30 PM, rich >> wrote: >>> almost done with another re-read of GR. Can anyone adequately >>> describe the reason Tchitcherine is obsessed with killing his half- >>> brother Enzian? don't really understand his personal motivation >>> here--is it just a Cain and Abel deal? >>> >>> rich >>> >> From wilsonistrey at gmail.com Wed Jul 23 17:11:17 2008 From: wilsonistrey at gmail.com (Brock Vond) Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2008 18:11:17 -0400 Subject: AtD Audio Book In-Reply-To: <00bc01c8ed0a$5b5c2340$121469c0$@com> References: <00bc01c8ed0a$5b5c2340$121469c0$@com> Message-ID: Yeah - I have it on my ipod... it's broken into sections but i just used this audiobook builder program to make it one track... (it's over like 40 hours) and the ipod remembers the last position... etc.. it's actually wonderful to read it with the book which is how I'm reading ATD the second time around. however... its the first audiobook I've ever listened to so i really know what to expect but I am enjoying it. and if anyone knows how to BitTorrent... its out there... On Jul 23, 2008, at 5:23 PM, Henry wrote: > Has anyone heard AtD on CD? > > http://austinpubliclibraryblog.blogspot.com/2008/07/dont-forget-audiobooks.html > The list includes MP3-CDs which need CD players that support MP3 > files. Most new CD players and many DVD players have that > capability, including CD players in newer cars. This new format > holds up to 16 1/2 recording hours so most books will be entirely > recorded onto one disc. Not all titles are available as an MP3-CD so > we still order plenty of the other kind. Against the Day by Thomas > Pynchon contains 42 sound discs! > > Henry (Doh-nut) Mu > > Please contribute to Obama if you can: http://my.barackobama.com/page/outreach/view/main/PListe4Obama > > If you appreciate this message, or my Obama blog, http://my.barackobama.com/page/community/blog/henrymu > , then how about being my friend on the My.BarackObama.com > network: http://my.barackobama.com/page/socialnet/register/33qzpcr2sl > > From malignd at aol.com Wed Jul 23 17:35:23 2008 From: malignd at aol.com (malignd at aol.com) Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2008 18:35:23 -0400 Subject: GR technical question - P.A. In-Reply-To: References: <8ad436340807230948i5af72da5uff742c2e9073f77@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <8CABB2B8792F9C5-674-2184@webmail-da09.sysops.aol.com> Maybe I should apologize to ppetto ... I need some help with a piece of communications technology. > In GR (the U-boat scene), V388.34 , "there's a long smash of static out of > the P.A." > Now what does P.A. stand for? Public Address (System) -----Original Message----- From: Dave Monroe To: János Székely Cc: Pynchon-l Sent: Wed, 23 Jul 2008 1:50 pm Subject: Re: GR technical question - P.A. On Wed, Jul 23, 2008 at 11:48 AM, János Székely wrote: > I need some help with a piece of communications technology. > In GR (the U-boat scene), V388.34 , "there's a long smash of static out of > the P.A." > Now what does P.A. stand for? Public Address (System) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From robinlandseadel at comcast.net Wed Jul 23 18:52:21 2008 From: robinlandseadel at comcast.net (robinlandseadel at comcast.net) Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2008 23:52:21 +0000 Subject: Enzian and Tchitcherine Message-ID: <072320082352.3769.4887C43500093A9100000EB92214756402040A0B0E0A9C0B020E0402070D019D@comcast.net> Brock Vond : they also double each other through most of the novel... both quests have holy centers (test stand and Kirghiz light) both are monitored by shadow-powers... both experience a magical removal from the text... (slothrop literally and T- through Geli's earthly magic).... I like, I like. . . . And Light�Explosion�Revelation, lurking behind it all, the Tunguska event. From markekohut at yahoo.com Wed Jul 23 19:06:21 2008 From: markekohut at yahoo.com (Mark Kohut) Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2008 17:06:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: AtD (37) p.1050, Paranoia runs deep....more musings prob. for nought Message-ID: <220380.34659.qm@web38406.mail.mud.yahoo.com> P 1050 What's it all mean--the ability to change the past? Is it a metaphor for a kind of regret cancellation in one's life? That chance to "if only I could go back and do something different in that situation?" Another machine--- as a "dangerous" technological device, it is NOT a good thing in TRPs world?---that promises a backward kind of perfection?...Or, if the owners get it "just right" is the best privacy invasion of all time?.The "perfect" life detector with no escape? EVERYTHING you have ever done could always be seen? (Reminds me of God's eye (Western Christian version) and of the Final Judgment, as literally expressed when I was younger). Lew used to have these bilocational experiences in England...he would "go off" somewhere else....a kind of mind travel metaphor?......then just 'dreams' and diminishment 'with no time to brood".....like all the choices we felt we could have made but didn't, then got set into our 'real' one-and-only lives?... "Gorillas" = brutes of guys. thugs. "P.Q." Paranoia Quotient? When Roswell worries that Hollywood types will do to him and his machine what he fears was done to Louis Le Prince, who was real, "makin' it all disappear might not be enough for them"?...is this about Hollywood America revising its past? Making it all disappear? Able to eliminate all the hidden 'truths'--injustices, violence Lotsa the 'thoughts' here remind of the spy chapter to me....fear-mongering with fear of spying everywhere... From sladflob at gmail.com Thu Jul 24 01:14:03 2008 From: sladflob at gmail.com (James Pinakis) Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2008 14:14:03 +0800 Subject: GR technical question - P.A. In-Reply-To: <072320082045.16097.4887985A000334B200003EE12215578674040A0B0E0A9C0B020E0402070D019D@comcast.net> References: <072320082045.16097.4887985A000334B200003EE12215578674040A0B0E0A9C0B020E0402070D019D@comcast.net> Message-ID: <48881DAB.6020908@gmail.com> > Public Address system. TRP's keen on distortion > and discontinuity, haven't you noticed? I'm still amazed at figuring out that the sentence Jumped by a skyful of MEs and no way out. (p151) is sufficient to imply that Terence Overbaby is dead. If not for the internet I would have thought an ME was a medical examiner. james (first post and working ever so slowly through GR) From isread at btinternet.com Thu Jul 24 01:42:54 2008 From: isread at btinternet.com (Paul Nightingale) Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2008 07:42:54 +0100 Subject: Atdtda28: Once he would have said, 788-789 Message-ID: <000301c8ed58$8084c930$818e5b90$@com> We are left wondering what will happen to Prance (his "uncertain fate", 787) and then rejoin Kit, going back to what has already happened: "Kit meantime had fallen in ..." etc (788). If Prance has been "taken aloft" (787) by the Chums, Kit has been caught up in "a band of brodyagi" (788) for whom progress is unpredictable: "... things interrupt, detours happen". This aptly describes Kit's own experience. However, if Topor's exegesis suggests the random nature of existence, his speech is interrupted by the narrative voice explaining Topor's status as a master of, one who imposes 'order' on, nature: "with a single ax [he] could do every job ..." etc. And then: "They had devised a steam distillery ..." etc. The lengthy parenthesis inserted into Topor's speech is indeed an interruption or detour, and Kit himself goes on to deviate from what "[o]nce [he] would have said ..." etc. Passive, he is speechless, unable to use the word "vector", unable to invoke with satisfaction Yashmeen's holy wanderers. Further, he is marginalised: "Following the sound ..." etc. And: "At night he heard ..." etc. He bears witness here to what has just happened, a "cleared right-of-way", then "track running between the trees". Understanding is produced, order imposed. From monte.davis at verizon.net Thu Jul 24 04:57:24 2008 From: monte.davis at verizon.net (Monte Davis) Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2008 05:57:24 -0400 Subject: AtdTDA: Your Answers Questioned In-Reply-To: <072320081355.11891.488738620003DDA600002E732214756402040A0B0E0A9C0B020E0402070D019D@comcast.net> Message-ID: <7B821253CBAD4D2F9AACED8702BF5149@MSI1> Robin quotes Evola: > For > there are two worlds, one of which has separated > itself by cutting off nearly every contact with the past. > For the great majority of moderns, that means any > possibility of understanding the traditional world has > been completely lost. Yes, yes... And yet... this is another instance of one of the master tropes of *modernity*, that we're adrift after NNN years or centuries of restful anchor. And it always feels so right. And yet i8t may be useful to raise two partial challenges: 1) Among the spinoffs of modernity are history and the historical sciences (archaeology, paleontogy, paleo-this and that, all the way to Big Bang cosmology). With their aid, we in fact *know* much more about the past than pre-moderns did. I love Morte d'Arthur and The Once and Future King, but neither has much to do with what actually happened in the British isles 500-1400 AD (and White knew that much better than Malory had). Wren Provenance's Anasazi rock drawings tell an important story, but I don't trust its "truth" much past a couple generations -- the historical sciences at least hold promise that you, feckless untethered Robin, could have a clearer picture of what proto-Anasazi were doing in 500 AD than the Anasazi of 1000 AD did. 2) Could psychological projection of the family constellation be at work here? When I was a child, I was encountering weird new "I don't know what to do here" situations all the time - but there were the grownups, who had it all sussed out (and, even though they *claimed* to have been kids once themselves, had obviously been grownups forever). For what it's worth, my own suspicion is that the sensation of "all is off-kilter in a world changing Too Damn Fast" got going about the time we started making fire and knapping flint, if not before. Not that there hasn't been acceleration, but with Einstein I have doubts that there ever was anything corresponding to this reified, hypostasized notion of "at rest"... From markekohut at yahoo.com Thu Jul 24 06:32:30 2008 From: markekohut at yahoo.com (Mark Kohut) Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2008 04:32:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: AtD (37) Rectilinearity, decky-dancing and orgies Message-ID: <767173.45998.qm@web38404.mail.mud.yahoo.com> P 1051-1052 Emilio's toilet bowl reading leads Lew to Mr. and Mrs. Deuce and Lake Kindred's place. She appears in a 'rectilinear' mist---not a good mist. More of TRPs right angles and bad linearity. Immediate sex ensues--'nothing personal out here, just happens a lot" in Hollywoodland. Decky-dance. Lake likes it verbally dirty and "like an animal". The return of the repressed in her suburban domesticity? Adultery with a stranger, no less. (But we soon learn that Deuce took her to Hollywood 'orgies"---"believe that is a soft 'g'." ) Where Encarnation and her hubby knew each other. From markekohut at yahoo.com Thu Jul 24 06:52:15 2008 From: markekohut at yahoo.com (Mark Kohut) Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2008 04:52:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: P-related--charisma and its rationalization Message-ID: <421011.1489.qm@web38402.mail.mud.yahoo.com> "In the wake of World War II, many Germans view charismatic leadership with mistrust." >From a news article today. From robinlandseadel at comcast.net Thu Jul 24 09:19:48 2008 From: robinlandseadel at comcast.net (robinlandseadel at comcast.net) Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2008 14:19:48 +0000 Subject: AtdTDA: Your Answers Questioned 410/411, 830 Message-ID: <072420081419.24674.48888F84000C0682000060622215578674040A0B0E0A9C0B020E0402070D019D@comcast.net> I know I've said it before, but with your indulgence I'll repeat it again: The man is a satirist and Against the Day lives in its many moments of high paradox and low humor. I've got a lovely little old fashioned flamenco guitar with a Dean Markley electronic tuner attached via some modern plastic marvel of an adhesive, there's acrylic fingernails glued via cyanoacrylic to my fingers that allow me get some tone out of the lovely little girl. All this modern technology to evoke muses long out of date�I'm typing on a state-of-the-art personal computer with a buncha like-mined hooligans out there in the ayther�the entire notion of techno-pagan is just too. . . .I know a paradox when I trip, stumble and fall over it, and paradox is my business [organ stab] ! ! ! There was the era of the expansion of corporations like Pynchon & Company, working towards modernization and in the process creating wage slavery. Then, the chasm of WWI, the first mechanized, automated war, "Death From Above." And then, there's our era, the era of the trespassers: A young person of neglected aspect, holding a bottle of some reddish liquid, accosted the boys.. "You're the ones lookin fer Alonzo Meatman, I'll bet." "Maybe," replied Darby, reaching for and grasping his regulation issue "preserver." "Who wants to know?" Their interlocutor began to shiver, to look around the room with increasingly violent jerks of the head. "They . . . they . . ." "Come, man, get a grip on yourself," admonished Lindsay. "Who are this 'they' to whom you refer?" But the youngster was shaking violently now, his eyeballs, jittering in their orbits, gone wild with fright. Around the edges of his form, a strange magenta-and-green aura had begun to flicker, as if from a source somewhere behind him, growing more intense as he himself faded from view, until second later nothing was left but a kind of stain in the air where he had been, a warping of the light as through ancient window-glass. The bottle he had been holding, having remained behind, fell to the floor with a crash that seemed curiously prolonged. "Rats," muttered Darby, watching its contents soak into the sawdust. "and here I was hankering after a 'slug' of that stuff." AtD pages 410/411 I personally fear the day that PSP's get so souped-up that eleven-year olds, enabled by hot-rod time machine technology [them computers are gettin' scary fast�what if they catch up with themselves?] start playing with the past and Loki-like [hey, were talkin' eleven-year olds here] wreak havok. Tom LeClair in his Bookforum review of AtD "Lead Zeppelin" plucked out this passage as representing the author's thoughts on the nature and meaning of Against the Day: The Book of the Masked . . . [was] filled with encrypted field-notes and occult scientific passages of a dangerousness one could at least appreciate, though more perhaps for what it promised than for what it presented in such impenetrable code, its sketch of a mindscape whose layers emerged one on another as from a mist, a distant country of painful complexity, an all but unmappable flow of letters and numbers that passed into and out of the guise of the other, not to mention images, from faint and spidery sketches to a full spectrum of inks and pastels . . . visions of the unsuspected, breaches in the Creation where something else had had a chance to be luminously glimpsed. Ways in which God chose to hide within the light of day, not a full list, for the list was probably endless, but chance encounters with details of God's unseen world. AtD page 853 http://www.bookforum.com/archive/dec_06/leclair.html For whatever reason, OBA spends a lot of words and energy pointing to Hermetics in AtD. http://www.hermetics.com/ -------------- Original message ---------------------- From: "Monte Davis" > Robin quotes Evola: > > > For > > there are two worlds, one of which has separated > > itself by cutting off nearly every contact with the past. > > For the great majority of moderns, that means any > > possibility of understanding the traditional world has > > been completely lost. > > Yes, yes... And yet... this is another instance of one of the master tropes > of *modernity*, that we're adrift after NNN years or centuries of restful > anchor. And it always feels so right. And yet i8t may be useful to raise two > partial challenges: > > 1) Among the spinoffs of modernity are history and the historical sciences > (archaeology, paleontogy, paleo-this and that, all the way to Big Bang > cosmology). With their aid, we in fact *know* much more about the past than > pre-moderns did. I love Morte d'Arthur and The Once and Future King, but > neither has much to do with what actually happened in the British isles > 500-1400 AD (and White knew that much better than Malory had). Wren > Provenance's Anasazi rock drawings tell an important story, but I don't > trust its "truth" much past a couple generations -- the historical sciences > at least hold promise that you, feckless untethered Robin, could have a > clearer picture of what proto-Anasazi were doing in 500 AD than the Anasazi > of 1000 AD did. > > 2) Could psychological projection of the family constellation be at work > here? When I was a child, I was encountering weird new "I don't know what to > do here" situations all the time - but there were the grownups, who had it > all sussed out (and, even though they *claimed* to have been kids once > themselves, had obviously been grownups forever). > > For what it's worth, my own suspicion is that the sensation of "all is > off-kilter in a world changing Too Damn Fast" got going about the time we > started making fire and knapping flint, if not before. Not that there hasn't > been acceleration, but with Einstein I have doubts that there ever was > anything corresponding to this reified, hypostasized notion of "at rest"... From paul.mackin at verizon.net Thu Jul 24 09:37:40 2008 From: paul.mackin at verizon.net (Paul Mackin) Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2008 10:37:40 -0400 Subject: AtD (37) p.1050, Paranoia runs deep....more musings prob. for nought In-Reply-To: <220380.34659.qm@web38406.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <220380.34659.qm@web38406.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <488893B4.1090606@verizon.net> Mark Kohut wrote: > P 1050 > > What's it all mean--the ability to change the past? Is it a metaphor for a kind of regret cancellation in one's life? That chance to "if only I could go back and do something different in that situation?" Another machine--- as a "dangerous" technological device, it is NOT a good thing in TRPs world?---that promises a backward kind of perfection?...Or, if the owners get it "just right" is the best privacy invasion of all time?.The "perfect" life detector with no escape? EVERYTHING you have ever done could always be seen? (Reminds me of God's eye (Western Christian version) and of the Final Judgment, as literally expressed when I was younger). > Probably all these things, but you can be sure that, with Pynchon involved, entropy and information loss are lurking in the background. If the world is postulated as a network of relationships (no things, only processes) that involve nothing but information passing from observer to observer, then there are bound to be "disagreements" about what actually happened. (who was located where) > > Lew used to have these bilocational experiences in England...he would "go off" somewhere else....a kind of mind travel metaphor?......then just 'dreams' and diminishment 'with no time to brood".....like all the choices we felt we could have made but didn't, then got set into our 'real' one-and-only lives?... > > "Gorillas" = brutes of guys. thugs. > > "P.Q." Paranoia Quotient? > > When Roswell worries that Hollywood types will do to him and his machine what he fears was done to Louis Le Prince, who was real, "makin' it all disappear might not be enough for them"?...is this about Hollywood America revising its past? Making it all disappear? Able to eliminate all the hidden 'truths'--injustices, violence > There are other ways besides information loss to alter reality. Goons Lawyers Just watched the dvds of the first season of "Damages," the FX legal drama. > Lotsa the 'thoughts' here remind of the spy chapter to me....fear-mongering > with fear of spying everywhere... > > > > > > From against.the.dave at gmail.com Thu Jul 24 11:39:51 2008 From: against.the.dave at gmail.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2008 11:39:51 -0500 Subject: Inverted World Message-ID: Inverted World By Christopher Priest Afterword by John Clute The city is winched along tracks through a devastated land full of hostile tribes. Rails must be freshly laid ahead of the city and carefully removed in its wake. Rivers and mountains present nearly insurmountable challenges to the ingenuity of the city's engineers. But if the city does not move, it will fall farther and farther behind the "optimum" into the crushing gravitational field that has transformed life on Earth. The only alternative to progress is death. The secret directorate that governs the city makes sure that its inhabitants know nothing of this. Raised in common in crèches, nurtured on synthetic food, prevented above all from venturing outside the closed circuit of the city, they are carefully sheltered from the dire necessities that have come to define human existence. And yet the city is in crisis. The people are growing restive, the population is dwindling, and the rulers know that, for all their efforts, slowly but surely the city is slipping ever farther behind the optimum. Helward Mann is a member of the city's elite. Better than anyone, he knows how tenuous is the city's continued existence. But the world—he is about to discover—is infinitely stranger than the strange world he believes he knows so well. http://www.nybooks.com/shop/product?usca_p=t&product_id=7959 From against.the.dave at gmail.com Thu Jul 24 11:59:14 2008 From: against.the.dave at gmail.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2008 11:59:14 -0500 Subject: Anathem Message-ID: Anathem By Neal Stephenson Price: $29.95 On Sale: 9/9/2008 Formats: Hardcover | E-Book Anathem, the latest invention by the New York Times bestselling author of Cryptonomicon and The Baroque Cycle, is a magnificent creation: a work of great scope, intelligence, and imagination that ushers readers into a recognizable—yet strangely inverted—world. Fraa Erasmas is a young avout living in the Concent of Saunt Edhar, a sanctuary for mathematicians, scientists, and philosophers, protected from the corrupting influences of the outside "saecular" world by ancient stone, honored traditions, and complex rituals. Over the centuries, cities and governments have risen and fallen beyond the concent's walls. Three times during history's darkest epochs violence born of superstition and ignorance has invaded and devastated the cloistered mathic community. Yet the avout have always managed to adapt in the wake of catastrophe, becoming out of necessity even more austere and less dependent on technology and material things. And Erasmas has no fear of the outside—the Extramuros—for the last of the terrible times was long, long ago. Now, in celebration of the week-long, once-in-a-decade rite of Apert, the fraas and suurs prepare to venture beyond the concent's gates—at the same time opening them wide to welcome the curious "extras" in. During his first Apert as a fraa, Erasmas eagerly anticipates reconnecting with the landmarks and family he hasn't seen since he was "collected." But before the week is out, both the existence he abandoned and the one he embraced will stand poised on the brink of cataclysmic change. Powerful unforeseen forces jeopardize the peaceful stability of mathic life and the established ennui of the Extramuros—a threat that only an unsteady alliance of saecular and avout can oppose—as, one by one, Erasmas and his colleagues, teachers, and friends are summoned forth from the safety of the concent in hopes of warding off global disaster. Suddenly burdened with a staggering responsibility, Erasmas finds himself a major player in a drama that will determine the future of his world—as he sets out on an extraordinary odyssey that will carry him to the most dangerous, inhospitable corners of the planet . . . and beyond. http://www.harpercollins.com/books/9780061474095/Anathem/index.aspx First Look books on offer Entry Due 5/30/2008, Drawing held 5/31/2008, Review due 7/1/2008 If you're interested in reviewing this book and you're already a member: Sign in at top right. Not a member? Sign up now! http://www.harpercollins.com/Members/FirstLook/title.aspx?titleid=1448 Anathem and Long Now http://blog.longnow.org/2008/07/21/anathem-and-long-now/ From markekohut at yahoo.com Thu Jul 24 12:51:12 2008 From: markekohut at yahoo.com (Mark Kohut) Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2008 10:51:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: NP but..London, 1944, Julie Andrews, age 9 Message-ID: <324064.51281.qm@web38407.mail.mud.yahoo.com> "by the summer of 1944, The Germans were sending pilotless aircraft---literally flying bombs---known as 'doodlebugs' to England. We would hear the pulsating drone of their approach, then there would be a sudden silence as the engine cut out, followed by an unforgettable whistling sound as the missile hurtled toward the earth. If the aircraft cut out directly overhead, one was reasonably sure of being safe, since the doodlebugs had a habit of veering at the last second. If they cut out some distance away, the danger was considerable. .......I remember the nights especially." ........................................................................... 'the raids were relentless'............................................. My mother devised a time-saving idea. I was able to tell the difference between one of our own fighter aircraft and a German doodlebug. The minute the air raid siren went off, I was dispatched to sit on top of our shelter with a beach stool, an umbrella, a tiny pair of opera glasses, and a whistle..[When I] heard the approach of a doodlebug, I'd blow my whistle. The trouble was that all the neighbors began to rely on my whistle, as well. The day came when it was simply teeming with rain and, despite the umbrella, I rebelled. A bomb dropped close by, and later there were quite a few people ponding at our door. "Whyd didn't she blow her bloody whistle?", the neighbors demanded. >From then on I HAD to do it. ...................................................................... later, "were truly blessed in that they only dropped in a circle around us"... From fqmorris at gmail.com Thu Jul 24 14:22:46 2008 From: fqmorris at gmail.com (David Morris) Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2008 14:22:46 -0500 Subject: AtD (37) p.1050, Paranoia runs deep....more musings prob. for nought In-Reply-To: <488893B4.1090606@verizon.net> References: <220380.34659.qm@web38406.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <488893B4.1090606@verizon.net> Message-ID: <7d461dc80807241222h1751c938u5ffaa2d1252446c1@mail.gmail.com> On Thu, Jul 24, 2008 at 9:37 AM, Paul Mackin wrote: > Mark Kohut wrote: >> >> P 1050 >> What's it all mean--the ability to change the past? Is it a metaphor for a kind of regret cancellation in one's life? That chance to "if only I could go back and do something different in that situation?" > > Probably all these things, but you can be sure that, with Pynchon involved, entropy and information loss are lurking in the background. Well way back when in GR (somewhere) there was a lamentation/observation that it was impossible to reverse time, play the film of life backwards. I think I remember the imagery of a Mayflower ship sailing backwards, back to the Old World. I think a part of this thought also relates to TRP's thoughts on taking a different fork in the road way back then, also in GR I think. David Morris From paul.mackin at verizon.net Thu Jul 24 16:05:25 2008 From: paul.mackin at verizon.net (Paul Mackin) Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2008 17:05:25 -0400 Subject: AtD (37) p.1050, Paranoia runs deep....more musings prob. for nought In-Reply-To: <7d461dc80807241222h1751c938u5ffaa2d1252446c1@mail.gmail.com> References: <220380.34659.qm@web38406.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <488893B4.1090606@verizon.net> <7d461dc80807241222h1751c938u5ffaa2d1252446c1@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4888EE95.70606@verizon.net> David Morris wrote: > On Thu, Jul 24, 2008 at 9:37 AM, Paul Mackin wrote: > >> Mark Kohut wrote: >> >>> P 1050 >>> What's it all mean--the ability to change the past? Is it a metaphor for a kind of regret cancellation in one's life? That chance to "if only I could go back and do something different in that situation?" >>> >> Probably all these things, but you can be sure that, with Pynchon involved, entropy and information loss are lurking in the background. >> > > Well way back when in GR (somewhere) there was a > lamentation/observation that it was impossible to reverse time, play > the film of life backwards. I think I remember the imagery of a > Mayflower ship sailing backwards, back to the Old World. I think a > part of this thought also relates to TRP's thoughts on taking a > different fork in the road way back then, also in GR I think. > > David Morris > > > I do remember the thought that the Slothrop heresy might have been the fork in the road America never took? The idea is treated humorously in AtD where Halfcourt is trying to get to Shambala. The Yogi Berra joke is resurrected. You come to a fork in the road and take it. From markekohut at yahoo.com Thu Jul 24 17:24:12 2008 From: markekohut at yahoo.com (Mark Kohut) Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2008 15:24:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: AtD (37) p.1050, Paranoia runs deep....more musings prob. for nought In-Reply-To: <4888EE95.70606@verizon.net> Message-ID: <5005.34371.qm@web38408.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Is TRP, in the Remembrance of Things Past strain that has been seen in AtD, offering a vision of a non-deterministic Time Past, metaphorically? Remembrance of a Bilocal Past?, so to speak?... In GR as remembered by some below nothing can change, and more than once in AtD we have heard---'we can't go back the way we came"-----yet in part of this working metaphor, change IS possible???? --- On Thu, 7/24/08, Paul Mackin wrote: > From: Paul Mackin > Subject: Re: AtD (37) p.1050, Paranoia runs deep....more musings prob. for nought > To: pynchon-l at waste.org > Date: Thursday, July 24, 2008, 5:05 PM > David Morris wrote: > > On Thu, Jul 24, 2008 at 9:37 AM, Paul Mackin > wrote: > > > >> Mark Kohut wrote: > >> > >>> P 1050 > >>> What's it all mean--the ability to change > the past? Is it a metaphor for a kind of regret > cancellation in one's life? That chance to "if > only I could go back and do something different in that > situation?" > >>> > >> Probably all these things, but you can be sure > that, with Pynchon involved, entropy and information loss > are lurking in the background. > >> > > > > Well way back when in GR (somewhere) there was a > > lamentation/observation that it was impossible to > reverse time, play > > the film of life backwards. I think I remember the > imagery of a > > Mayflower ship sailing backwards, back to the Old > World. I think a > > part of this thought also relates to TRP's > thoughts on taking a > > different fork in the road way back then, also in GR I > think. > > > > David Morris > > > > > > > > > I do remember the thought that the Slothrop heresy might > have been the > fork in the road America never took? > > The idea is treated humorously in AtD where Halfcourt is > trying to get > to Shambala. > > The Yogi Berra joke is resurrected. > > You come to a fork in the road and take it. From markekohut at yahoo.com Fri Jul 25 06:33:06 2008 From: markekohut at yahoo.com (Mark Kohut) Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2008 04:33:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: AtD (37) p.1043 'See, that's the thing", anarchist-bashing, and a moll rescue Message-ID: <391666.43869.qm@web38401.mail.mud.yahoo.com> P 1053 "still dead's far as I know." "See.that's the thing"----Lew began. Heady, metaphysical-like comedy going on here, yes?" thoughts? Deuce in "Security", like Lew. Union-busting, more blaming the anarchists dialogue. Lew and Deuce sparring, sniping verbally, until Lew's great Hollywood joke when Deuce pulls hiis gun BUT he is saved by Shalimar with her tommy gun. How'd she get there? Sliding in with Lew all along? Or, popping in like a teleporter? "Check up on me" seems to indicate the latter. Which means she knows what's happening with Lew all along? And nobody is surprised. Or, of course, there is always that 'other life' existing alongside the one we live?.. Or, just part of the detective plot parody? A reviewer on Iceland Spar: it lets people see into the fourth dimension, time, thereby showing them the shadow-world that surrounds us all like a colorless, odorless gas. When one character looks at a nugget of silver through this mysterious substance, he finds: "Not only had the entire scene doubled and, even more peculiarly, grown brighter, but as for the two overlapping images of the nugget itself, one was as gold as the other was silver." Is Iceland Spar almost everywhere? Is Spar an internal metaphor for such shadow-worlds everywhere in the novel. Whenever we have a juxtaposition in space in the text that might only be understood as a jump in time? Shalimar? and soon Ms. Macara? From paul.mackin at verizon.net Fri Jul 25 08:55:55 2008 From: paul.mackin at verizon.net (Paul Mackin) Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2008 09:55:55 -0400 Subject: AtD (37) p.1050, Paranoia runs deep....more musings prob. for nought In-Reply-To: <5005.34371.qm@web38408.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <5005.34371.qm@web38408.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4889DB6B.4050207@verizon.net> Mark Kohut wrote: > Is TRP, in the Remembrance of Things Past strain that has been seen in AtD, > offering a vision of a non-deterministic Time Past, metaphorically? > > Remembrance of a Bilocal Past?, so to speak?... > > In GR as remembered by some below nothing can change, and more than once in AtD we have heard---'we can't go back the way we came"-----yet in part of this working metaphor, change IS possible???? > A remembrance or recordation of what MIGHT have happened. Or even sorta happened. Might we want to think that there is a completely different reality out there AN EIGHTH OF WHICH HAPPENED? Admit that the current reality is only 87.5 percent true. Apply quantum level thinking to our macro world. So what does it mean that we are only PROBABLY here talking to each other. Does Pynchon know? Does he expect us to figure it out? P. > --- On Thu, 7/24/08, Paul Mackin wrote: > > >> From: Paul Mackin >> Subject: Re: AtD (37) p.1050, Paranoia runs deep....more musings prob. for nought >> To: pynchon-l at waste.org >> Date: Thursday, July 24, 2008, 5:05 PM >> David Morris wrote: >> >>> On Thu, Jul 24, 2008 at 9:37 AM, Paul Mackin >>> >> wrote: >> >>> >>> >>>> Mark Kohut wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>>> P 1050 >>>>> What's it all mean--the ability to change >>>>> >> the past? Is it a metaphor for a kind of regret >> cancellation in one's life? That chance to "if >> only I could go back and do something different in that >> situation?" >> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> Probably all these things, but you can be sure >>>> >> that, with Pynchon involved, entropy and information loss >> are lurking in the background. >> >>>> >>>> >>> Well way back when in GR (somewhere) there was a >>> lamentation/observation that it was impossible to >>> >> reverse time, play >> >>> the film of life backwards. I think I remember the >>> >> imagery of a >> >>> Mayflower ship sailing backwards, back to the Old >>> >> World. I think a >> >>> part of this thought also relates to TRP's >>> >> thoughts on taking a >> >>> different fork in the road way back then, also in GR I >>> >> think. >> >>> David Morris >>> >>> >>> >>> >> I do remember the thought that the Slothrop heresy might >> have been the >> fork in the road America never took? >> >> The idea is treated humorously in AtD where Halfcourt is >> trying to get >> to Shambala. >> >> The Yogi Berra joke is resurrected. >> >> You come to a fork in the road and take it. >> > > > > > > From michael.lee.bailey at gmail.com Fri Jul 25 09:45:28 2008 From: michael.lee.bailey at gmail.com (Michael Bailey) Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2008 09:45:28 -0500 Subject: Theroux on Pynchon (a bit) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: oh, that was a quote... never mind... On 7/25/08, Michael Bailey wrote: > On 7/22/08, Ya Sam wrote: > > > > On the difficulty of Pynchon's books: > > > > 'I'm often in many many places left completely outside that cathedral, when I'd like to be a worshipper inside. I understand. maybe, 82% of his books' > From michael.lee.bailey at gmail.com Fri Jul 25 09:44:10 2008 From: michael.lee.bailey at gmail.com (Michael Bailey) Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2008 09:44:10 -0500 Subject: Theroux on Pynchon (a bit) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 7/22/08, Ya Sam wrote: > > On the difficulty of Pynchon's books: > > 'I'm often in many many places left completely outside that cathedral, when I'd like to be a worshipper inside. I understand. maybe, 82% of his books' That's still a pretty good percentage. I've gotten clarification on a lot of points by this list. The AtD group read has really helped, do you agree? Have the specific things you're left wondering about to do with Americanisms and cultural tacit assumptions? If so, there may be people on the list who would cheerfully - not necessarily definitively, but cheerfully - shed some light. (such as answers to "those M&D words" e.g.) If the other 18% has to do with historical references (nobody ever did know what an R-girl was...) or technical references to such fields as mining or math (btw, did you ever finish reading that Penfield math tome?) or grokking the artistic vision, then you're in the same boat and doing better than many... From robinlandseadel at comcast.net Fri Jul 25 10:30:26 2008 From: robinlandseadel at comcast.net (robinlandseadel at comcast.net) Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2008 15:30:26 +0000 Subject: AtD (37) p.1050[+ 409], Paranoia runs deep....more musings prob. for nought Message-ID: <072520081530.21641.4889F191000EA3C4000054892216525856040A0B0E0A9C0B020E0402070D019D@comcast.net> Well, not to get too hoit-toity and all that, but seriously�read Proust. Get the Linda Davis translation of "Swann's Way." We all have become accustomed to Pynchon's supersized sentences but the all time master is Marcel Proust. Which reminds me, not having read any Henry James, which of his books would be most on-point [mimiced, parodied] in OBA's writing? At the same time, note just how much the present, the theoretical "Now" that we are collectively undermining here out on the far western frontier of the web, is folded into Against the Day, how much Pynchon relies on audacious fraud in order to set up truly awful puns, like Webb Traverse [what we are doing right now]. It reminds me of Genghis Cohen's Philatelic freakout in CoL49: Cohen smiled, blew his nose. "You'd be amazed how much you can sell an honest forgery for. Some collectors specialize in them. The question is, who did these? They're atrocious." He flipped the stamp over and with the tip of the tweezers showed her. The picture had a Pony Express rider galloping out of a western fort. From shrubbery over on the right-hand side and possibly in the direction the rider would be heading, protruded a single, painstakingly engraved, black feather. "Why put in a deliberate mistake?" he asked, ignoring�if he saw it�the look on her face. "I've come up so far with eight in all. Each one has an error like this, laboriously worked into the design, like a taunt. There's even a transposition�U. S. Potsage, of all things." Pynchon's melodramatic set-up�someone back there cited D. W. Griffith's "Intolerance"�allows for multiple happy endings and there's plenty of cliffhangers [it all goes along with TRP's penchant for chase scenes]. Iceland Spar�rotate the crystal, see different layers of time including the ones you didn't enter this time around, look to your left: there's a death you'll miss this time around, there's countless others but you're far too distracted to die just yet� not all the time going on right now is contained in all the time that is potentially available once we work out all the kinks: . . . .Up and down the steeply-pitched sides of a ravine lay the picked-over hulks of failed time machines�Chronoclipses, Asimov Transeculars, Tempomorph Q-88s�broken, defective, scorched by catastrophic flares of misrouted energy, corroded often beyond recognition by unintended immersion in the terrible Flow over which they had been designed and built, so hopefully, to prevail. . . .A strewn field of conjecture, superstition, blind faith, and bad engineering, expressed in sheet-aluminum, vulcanite, Heusler's alloy, bonzoline, electrum, lignum vitae, platinoid. magnallium and packfong silver, much of it stripped away by scavengers over the years. Where was the safe harbor in Time their pilots might have found, so allowing their craft to avoid such ignominious fates? AtD page 409. Mark Kohut: Is TRP, in the Remembrance of Things Past strain that has been seen in AtD, offering a vision of a non- deterministic Time Past, metaphorically? Remembrance of a Bilocal Past?, so to speak?... In GR as remembered by some below nothing can change, and more than once in AtD we have heard--- 'we can't go back the way we came"-----yet in part of this working metaphor, change IS possible???? Paul Mackin: A remembrance or recordation of what MIGHT have happened. Or even sorta happened. Might we want to think that there is a completely different reality out there AN EIGHTH OF WHICH HAPPENED? Admit that the current reality is only 87.5 percent true. Apply quantum level thinking to our macro world. So what does it mean that we are only PROBABLY here talking to each other. Does Pynchon know? Does he expect us to figure it out? P. "Maybe, possibly, perhaps . . . . Do You Know What THIS Is?????" ". . . .why yes, that's a b-b-b-rown paper bag" "Verrrry good, now I Think you're ready for�THIS ! ! ! [organ stab.] From against.the.dave at gmail.com Fri Jul 25 12:11:00 2008 From: against.the.dave at gmail.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2008 12:11:00 -0500 Subject: Max Ernst: Illustrated Books In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Max Ernst: Illustrated Books The exhibit "Max Ernst: Illustrated Books" showcases "mysterious, species-bending creatures invented by German surrealist Max Ernst (1891–1976) during the 1920s and 1930s." Images such as bird- and insect-headed women, or a strange machine that seems to be part man, part crocodile, and part bicycle have been selected from the pages of nineteen collage novels created by Ernst. On the website visitors see pages from five or six of these titles, including Rêve d'une petite fille qui voulut entrer au Carmel (A little girl dreams of taking the veil), Une semaine de bonté (Kindness Week), and Spectacle metallique (1930). There are also some examples from Ernst's Histoire naturelle that the artist created by rubbing a pencil over various textures and surfaces, producing shapes reminiscent of bamboo, seed balls, rabbit ears, and bird's claws. http://www.nga.gov/exhibitions/2008/ernst/index.shtm http://scout.wisc.edu/Reports/ScoutReport/Current/ From takoitov at hotmail.com Fri Jul 25 12:53:45 2008 From: takoitov at hotmail.com (Ya Sam) Date: Sat, 26 Jul 2008 00:53:45 +0700 Subject: New Vollmann and Evan Dara Message-ID: http://www.amazon.com/Imperial-William-Vollmann/dp/0670020613/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1215351286&sr=1-1 http://www.amazon.com/Easy-Chain-Evan-Dara/dp/0980226600/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1217008381&sr=1-1 _________________________________________________________________ Explore the seven wonders of the world http://search.msn.com/results.aspx?q=7+wonders+world&mkt=en-US&form=QBRE From takoitov at hotmail.com Fri Jul 25 13:18:58 2008 From: takoitov at hotmail.com (Ya Sam) Date: Sat, 26 Jul 2008 01:18:58 +0700 Subject: Theroux on Pynchon (a bit) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: These are not my words, I was quoting Theroux from the audio interview. Oh, I wish I could understand that much! As for me, after 2 reads, having consulted Pynchon wiki and the group read, well, I dunno, I think I've just begun getting some stuff. More posts in the vein of 'Those M&D words' might follow. > That's still a pretty good percentage. > > I've gotten clarification on a lot > of points by this list. The AtD group read has really helped, do you agree? > > Have the specific things you're left wondering about to do with > Americanisms and cultural tacit assumptions? > If so, there may be people on the list who would cheerfully > - not necessarily definitively, but cheerfully - shed some light. > (such as answers to "those M&D words" e.g.) > > If the other 18% has to do with > historical references (nobody ever did know what an R-girl was...) > or technical references to such fields as mining or math (btw, did you > ever finish > reading that Penfield math tome?) > or grokking the artistic vision, > then you're in the same boat and doing better than many... _________________________________________________________________ Connect to the next generation of MSN Messenger  http://imagine-msn.com/messenger/launch80/default.aspx?locale=en-us&source=wlmailtagline From takoitov at hotmail.com Fri Jul 25 13:20:36 2008 From: takoitov at hotmail.com (Ya Sam) Date: Sat, 26 Jul 2008 01:20:36 +0700 Subject: Theroux on Pynchon (a bit) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > oh, that was a quote...> > never mind...> Oops, sorry, information entropy in action! _________________________________________________________________ Discover the new Windows Vista http://search.msn.com/results.aspx?q=windows+vista&mkt=en-US&form=QBRE -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From richard.romeo at gmail.com Fri Jul 25 13:13:52 2008 From: richard.romeo at gmail.com (rich) Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2008 14:13:52 -0400 Subject: New Vollmann and Evan Dara In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <830c13f40807251113l1224599dp9d70fc5ba0fe35da@mail.gmail.com> wondered what happened to evan dara--i really liked the lost scapbook that new vollman is 1300 pgs--yikes rich On Fri, Jul 25, 2008 at 1:53 PM, Ya Sam wrote: > > http://www.amazon.com/Imperial-William-Vollmann/dp/0670020613/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1215351286&sr=1-1 > > > http://www.amazon.com/Easy-Chain-Evan-Dara/dp/0980226600/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1217008381&sr=1-1 > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Explore the seven wonders of the world > http://search.msn.com/results.aspx?q=7+wonders+world&mkt=en-US&form=QBRE > From dedalus204 at comcast.net Fri Jul 25 16:54:47 2008 From: dedalus204 at comcast.net (Tim Strzechowski) Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2008 16:54:47 -0500 Subject: NP? If W spoke in Berlin Message-ID: <000e01c8eea1$0fa2c510$0300a8c0@TStrzechowski> Subject: If W spoke in Berlin Greetings, my fellow Germans. Let me first thank Chancellor Merkel: Angie, lookin' fine... and Foreign Minister Steinbrenner: Nice to see you, George; heh, heh. Thank you all for the warm welcome. As I said to my cab driver -- let's say, 'Fritz' -- on the way in from the airport, 'For a bunch of SOUR KRAUTS, this is one heapin' helpin' of hospitality.' I come here today not as a American president, which I am, but as a fellow citizen of the world. I say that because both my mother, 'Mama Barb,' and my daddy, '41,' were born and bred right here, on the planet Earth. Same as you. See what I mean? I also come here as a student of history -- a D student, as I recall, and damn proud of it, too, 'cause I passed, and that's what's important. And so I know that it was exactly 60 years ago, in 1946, that U.S. Secretary of State Charles Foster Dulles created the program that to this day bears his name, the Marshall Plan. We called it a 'post-war reconstruction plan' because that's what it was: a plan that we reconstructed right after the end of -- or 'post' -- World War Two. You remember World War Two, don't you? Hell, you STARTED it. And we FINISHED it. Heh, heh. But that's not why I stand here today. I'm here to say to all German-Americans -- and all European-Americans -- in Europe or here in Germany -- that we are all the same under our skin. It's just those Chinese and Koreans and Africans: THEY'RE different. And Iraqians. But WE are the same, because we share common values. For instance, we love freedom. And cars. And flat-screen TVs. And VCRs. And sports bars. And the Dallas Cowboys. Values like those. Now, Americans are compassionate, like the kind of conservative I've been for about eight years now. We in America are aware of the wartime sacrifices that Germans and Italians and Belgiumites have made throughout this great 20th century. And to quote my predecessor, which is what we call the man -- or woman -- who What I came to say on this historic occasion of my speech to you in this long-divided city is that we are partners. Partners against terror. Partners FOR Democracy. Partners against atheism. Partners FOR Christeo-Judish values. See how it works, back and forth like that? Partners against perversion. Partners FOR what I call hetero sex. And today, as one sexual partner to another, I sound a warning. The enemy is out there within -- hating us for our freedoms, our Big Macs with cheese, our devotion to law and order and SVUs. So I implore you to watch your step. If you say something, do something. Our enemies could be just about anywhere, and, I'm afraid to say, that's exactly where they are: just about anywhere. But this is not just about anywhere. It's about Europe, and Germany, and America, and Hawaii. It's about keeping our planet -- Earth -- safe from Democracy, so that businesses large and small can grow beyond all reason, and consumers everywhere can spend beyond their means. And so my friends here in Berlin, take heart. The circle of life is passing close, and prosperity is just around the corner. This is our moment. Our magic moment. Join hands with America, 'cause we've got you covered. And with the Lord's help, Senator McCain and I promise you: this wall will come down. Hey. Ich bin real! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From against.the.dave at gmail.com Sat Jul 26 09:55:59 2008 From: against.the.dave at gmail.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Sat, 26 Jul 2008 09:55:59 -0500 Subject: Tubal Detox Message-ID: http://youtube.com/watch?v=qXkw3L7oxwk From tbeshear at insightbb.com Sat Jul 26 11:49:24 2008 From: tbeshear at insightbb.com (tbeshear) Date: Sat, 26 Jul 2008 12:49:24 -0400 Subject: New Vollmann and Evan Dara References: <830c13f40807251113l1224599dp9d70fc5ba0fe35da@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <001001c8ef3f$8f298460$0301a8c0@XPS> IMPERIAL is Vollmann's exploration/history of California's Imperial Valley. An excerpt of the work in progress can be found in the Volmann reader, EXPELLED FROM EDEN. Advance word has been strong -- unfortunately, his aversion to trimming material may get the better of him again. A wide audience might be interested in a tightly written 500-page book on the subject, but 1,300? -- that's for the Vollmann cultists -- like me. ----- Original Message ----- From: "rich" To: "Ya Sam" Cc: Sent: Friday, July 25, 2008 2:13 PM Subject: Re: New Vollmann and Evan Dara > wondered what happened to evan dara--i really liked the lost scapbook > > that new vollman is 1300 pgs--yikes > > rich > > On Fri, Jul 25, 2008 at 1:53 PM, Ya Sam wrote: >> >> http://www.amazon.com/Imperial-William-Vollmann/dp/0670020613/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1215351286&sr=1-1 >> >> >> http://www.amazon.com/Easy-Chain-Evan-Dara/dp/0980226600/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1217008381&sr=1-1 >> >> >> >> >> >> _________________________________________________________________ >> Explore the seven wonders of the world >> http://search.msn.com/results.aspx?q=7+wonders+world&mkt=en-US&form=QBRE >> From grladams at teleport.com Sat Jul 26 18:23:46 2008 From: grladams at teleport.com (grladams at teleport.com) Date: Sat, 26 Jul 2008 19:23:46 -0400 Subject: 1910 Bombing of the LA Times Newspaper Message-ID: <380-220087626232346617@M2W004.mail2web.com> American Lightning : Terror, Mystery, the Birth of Hollywood, and the Crime of Blum, Howard (Author) Pub Date: September 2008 Street Date: September 16, 2008 Publishers Weekly (Monday , June 09, 2008): In 1911, Iron Workers Union leaders James and Joseph McNamara plea-bargained in exchange for prison sentences instead of death after bombing the offices of th"e Los Angeles Times"killing 21 people and wounding many more. The bombing had been part of a bungled assault on some 100 American cities. After the McNamaras went to jail, Clarence Darrow, their defense attorney, wound up indicted for attempting to bribe the jury, but won acquittal after a defense staged by the brilliant Earl Rogers. The McNamaras were investigated by William J. Burnsnear legendary former Secret Service agent and proprietor of a detective agency. Surprisingly, Burnss collaborator in the investigation was silent film director D.W. Griffith. This tangled and fascinating tale is the stuff of novels, and "Vanity Fair" contributing editor Blum ("The Brigade") tells it with a novelists flair. In an approach reminiscent of Truman Capotes "In Cold Blood, " Blum paints his characters in all their grandeur and tragedy, making themand their eracome alive. Blums prose is tight, his speculations unfailingly sound and his research extensiveall adding up to an absorbing and masterful true crime narrative. "(Sept.)" Copyright 2008 Reed Business Information. Library Journal (Sunday , June 15, 2008): On October 1, 1910, in the midst of a massive labor dispute, the "Los Angeles Times" building was destroyed in an explosion that left 20 people dead and many more injured. As other, similar bombs were found, it was obvious that this was not a single malicious act but a nationwide conspiracy by members of the national Iron Workers union. The hunt was on for the perpetrators. The ensuing investigation and trial brought in master detective William Burns on one side and famed attorney Clarence Darrow on the other. The trial pitted labor against management and the rich against the working class and brought out unethical behavior in both the prosecution and the defense. Adding to the carnival atmosphere were new developments in California's nascent moving picture industry, as D.W. Griffith was discovering that carefully crafted persuasive films could profoundly effect the emotions of the audience, creating a new medium for reformersand propagandists. Though the ink given to Griffith here is somewhat out of proportion to his relevance to the story, it adds interest to this riveting account of 20th-century homegrown political terrorism. For public and academic libraries. [See Prepub Alert, "LJ" 5/15/08.]Deirdre Bray Root, Middletown P.L., OH Copyright 2008 Reed Business Information. Review Quotes: "This is a wonderful story, with a cast of characters out of a Cecil B. DeMille epic, told in a style that is lucid, lyrical, even electric. Narrative history at its very best." --Joseph J. Ellis, Pulitzer Prize winning author of "Founding Brothers" and "American Creation" "In "American Lightning" Howard Blum brings to life the tragic bombing of the Los Angeles Times in l910. Writing with narrative verve and finely-honed detective instincts, Blum fleshes out the real story behind this hideous act of domestic terrorism. Highly recommended reading!" --Douglas Brinkley, "New York Times" bestselling author of "The Great Deluge" and "Tour of Duty" and Professor of History, Rice University -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web.com – Enhanced email for the mobile individual based on Microsoft® Exchange - http://link.mail2web.com/Personal/EnhancedEmail From grladams at teleport.com Sat Jul 26 18:27:11 2008 From: grladams at teleport.com (grladams at teleport.com) Date: Sat, 26 Jul 2008 19:27:11 -0400 Subject: Naughty 19th-Century weekly lowbrow tabloids Message-ID: <380-220087626232711492@M2W011.mail2web.com> (book review reminded me of some threads thru the years on the P-list) The Flash Press: Sporting Male Weeklies in 1840s New York (Historical Studies of Urban America (Paperback) ) ISBN: 0226112349 EAN: 9780226112343 Publisher: University of Chicago Press US SRP: $ 20.00 US - (Discount: REG) Binding: Paperback - Other Formats Pub Date: May 2008 Contributor(s): Cline Cohen, Patricia (Author), Gilfoyle, Timothy J (Author), Lefkowitz Horowitz, Helen (Author), American Antiquarian Society (With) Publisher Marketing: Obscene, libidinous, loathsome, lascivious. Those were just some of the ways critics described the nineteenth-century weeklies that covered and publicized New York City's extensive sexual underworld. Publications like the "Flash "and the" Whip"--distinguished by a captivating brew of lowbrow humor and titillating gossip about prostitutes, theater denizens, and sporting events--were not the sort generally bound in leather for future reference, and despite their popularity with an enthusiastic readership, they quickly receded into almost complete obscurity. Recently, though, two sizable collections of these papers have resurfaced, and in "The Flash Press" three renowned scholars provide a landmark study of their significance as well as a wide selection of their ribald articles and illustrations. Including short tales of urban life, editorials on prostitution, and moralizing rants against homosexuality, these selections epitomize a distinct form of urban journalism,"" Here, in addition to providing a thorough overview of this colorful reportage, its editors, and its audience, the authors examine nineteenth-century ideas of sexuality and freedom that mixed Tom Paine's republicanism with elements of the Marquis de Sade's sexual ideology. They also trace the evolution of censorship and obscenity law, showing how a string of legal battles ultimately led to the demise of the flash papers: editors were hauled into court, sentenced to jail for criminal obscenity and libel, and eventually pushed out of business. But not before they forever changed the debate over public sexuality and freedom of expression in America's most important city. Review Quotes: "A fascinating survey of the long-forgotten flash' newspapers of the 1840s and of the raucous urban sexual cultures, explosive sexual scandals, and heated debates over sexual liberty and morality those newspapers chronicled, provoked, and lampooned."-George Chauncey, author of Gay New York Review Quotes: "Cohen, Gilfoyle and Horowitz, history professors and chroniclers of 19th-century American sexuality, offer an engaging scholarly examination of the little-known weekly newspapers that reported on the sexual underworld of 1840s New York. . . . A thorough account of this quirky, salacious moment in journalism, readers familiar with New York will find a city both foreign and familiar, and a sense that the local weekly used to be a lot more fun." -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web.com - Microsoft® Exchange solutions from a leading provider - http://link.mail2web.com/Business/Exchange From rfiero at gmail.com Sat Jul 26 23:25:04 2008 From: rfiero at gmail.com (Richard Fiero) Date: Sat, 26 Jul 2008 20:25:04 -0800 Subject: 1910 Bombing of the LA Times Newspaper In-Reply-To: <380-220087626232346617@M2W004.mail2web.com> References: <380-220087626232346617@M2W004.mail2web.com> Message-ID: <488beab9.1abb720a.0f3f.ffffcf71@mx.google.com> grladams at teleport.com wrote: >American Lightning : Terror, Mystery, the Birth of Hollywood, and >the Crime of >Blum, Howard (Author) > Pub Date: September 2008 > Street Date: September 16, 2008 > Publishers Weekly (Monday , June 09, 2008): >In 1911, Iron Workers Union leaders James and Joseph McNamara >plea-bargained in exchange for prison sentences instead of death after >bombing the offices of th"e Los Angeles Times"killing 21 people and >wounding many more. The bombing had been part of a bungled assault >on some 100 American cities. . . . >"In "American Lightning" Howard Blum brings to life the tragic bombing of >the Los Angeles Times in l910. Writing with narrative verve and >finely-honed detective instincts, Blum fleshes out the real story behind >this hideous act of domestic terrorism. Highly recommended reading!" >--Douglas Brinkley, "New York Times" bestselling author of "The Great >Deluge" and "Tour of Duty" and Professor of History, Rice University I will have to wait until my county library system gets Mr. Blum's book before I can understand where he is coming from. The LA Times right down through the fifties was a staunchly racist anti-communist anti-union rag before it became world-class under Otis Chandler. It's not known who actually caused the explosion which occurred conveniently just an hour after Harrison Gray Otis left the building. The owners and managers of the Times were indeed 'plutes in need of adjustment. See for instance the Zoot Suit Riot of 1943. Yes, that one. Or the interesting charity contributions to Buffy Chandler's pet Music Center. Ahmanson comes to mind. An informant has advised me that he saw Richard Nixon leaving a secure and windowless building within the LA Times building with what looked a lot like a bag of money. From isread at btinternet.com Sun Jul 27 08:51:29 2008 From: isread at btinternet.com (Paul Nightingale) Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2008 14:51:29 +0100 Subject: Atdtda28: Sentenced to blind passage, 789-791 Message-ID: <000001c8efef$df9d7680$9ed86380$@com> Parting, Kit and Prance wonder what happened to the mission (787). Subsequently, Kit "fall[s] in with a band of brodyagi" (788), then "follow[s] the sound" that leads him to the railway: this in turn will allow him, retrospectively, to make sense of the soundtrack that has accompanied his progress (788-789). Here, as the new section opens, "Kit proceed[s] ... as if there were no doubt as to his way" (789); and then "[finds] himself in a clearing above a meandering river". From what he has heard, and had to make sense of, to what he can see: "... a plume of steam from a riverboat was just visible". Progress "through the dark forests"; and then, "[a]t first light", some kind of outlet. And then, as Kit emerges from the darkness, "stroll[ing] into the firelight", he is "[u]naware of how he look[s]" and has to be identified, given an identity. From "no doubt as to his way" when travelling blind through the unmapped forests, to Fleetwood's "I know him". Later, Kit's response to "I know him" will come with the firelight fading: "There was just enough light from the fire to see the despair in Fleetwood's face ..." (790). Fleetwood offers an account of "something ... in Italy"; and thereby separates the Kit he addresses here from the Kit who was an eye-witness (Fleetwood: "Apparently ..."). Fleetwood is also "seeking ... a hidden railroad existing so far only as shadowy rumor". This "rumor", or form of words, is given substance by Kit's certainty: "That must have been ..." etc. Here, Kit can voice the certainty (an eye witness 'I know ...' as opposed to Fleetwood's hearsay account) that he must deny when Fleetwood is speaking of his father in Italy. As they talk on, a map produced, Kit becomes authoritative, completing Fleetwood's sentence to identify Shambhala (790). In the previous section Kit fails ("now the word did not occur to him", 788) to say the word "vector" when Topor seems to suggest it as Fleetwood seems to suggest "Shambhala" here. Fleetwood has invoked the past, their previous meeting, eg: "I thought there had to be some portal into another world ... I was possessed by the dream of a passage through an invisible gate" (164). Subsequently, on 165: "It seems all I'm looking for now is movement, just for its own sake, what you fellows call the vector, I guess". In 55.14, Fleetwood has become a "self-pitying loudmouth" (790); Kit can "see the despair in [his] face, despair like a corrupt form of hope". If Fleetwood believes the Event might allow him to change the judgement made of him, that he is guilty of "idle tourism", for Kit he remains a "so-called explorer". Fleetwood speaks of destiny; Kit prefers "too much sense of privilege". If Colfax has been "set ... free" (789) by his father's actions, "meant for" family life, Fleetwood "can only keep moving", an echo of the earlier "movement, just for its own sake". Perhaps he should be 'unmoved' by disinheritance, given that his sense of self never depended on being a Vibe heir, eg: "They don't actually know I'm here ..." etc (164). From markekohut at yahoo.com Sun Jul 27 09:03:27 2008 From: markekohut at yahoo.com (Mark Kohut) Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2008 07:03:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: AtD (37) p. 1054 'Baloney', no radio communication and no cause and effect Message-ID: <604748.41696.qm@web38401.mail.mud.yahoo.com> P 1054 "baloney sandwich", nothing on the radio and the light draining away...'heated quiescence"....Objective correlative of Lake's state of mind, so seemingly offhandedly done. Then: Unhappy Lake gives up a belief in cause and effect?! Remember the same thought---from Slotrop? in GR? Mixing 'reality' and a (depressed?) dream state. [Mixing memory and desire--Eliot]. Compassionately, she sees Deuce as Unawakened from his life...caught in his 'desires' ala the non-enlightened in Buddhism? Ala the psychologically stupid in Western parlance? From markekohut at yahoo.com Sun Jul 27 09:11:18 2008 From: markekohut at yahoo.com (Mark Kohut) Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2008 07:11:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: AtD (37) p. 1054 Universal Dream Machine, fantasies and dead women in bed Message-ID: <293601.76140.qm@web38404.mail.mud.yahoo.com> the Universal Dream Casino a "dream casino" has been used by some writers to describe the 'ideal' gambling place as in the phrase, "Bugsy Siegel's dream casino" in Vegas. A 'dream casino'--real betting, it seems--company for women exists. From the context, and novel's themes, I suggest that this phrase means all of Lake's possible, fantasizable fates, played out as 'chance'." Cf. Yashmeen's skill at roulette and the whole theme of luck, fate, chance. Remember Pirate Prentice having other people's fantasies in GR?....Depth psychology from Freud, Jung and others, argue that, unhappy, we do fantasize a lot in the modern world (to say the too-obvious, maybe. Just reminding myself of P's focus on people and society.) "in his own ways, Deuce was trying to awaken from his life". Compassionate insight strikes Lake. His life is a nightmare, from which he needs to wake up? Awaken--concept of enlightenment here? fit in with the notion that much of the movement of characters in AtD is toward more understanding, i.e. enlightenment? "woman lying next to him who seemed to be dead"...that old mystery plot, but real with Deuce. Chumps of Choice blog says Hammett's "Red Harvest' has this plot. Deep suppressed guilt of Deuce? From robinlandseadel at comcast.net Sun Jul 27 09:24:54 2008 From: robinlandseadel at comcast.net (robinlandseadel at comcast.net) Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2008 14:24:54 +0000 Subject: NP from the New Yorker: Extraordinary Rendition Message-ID: <072720081424.3523.488C85360004633D00000DC32216554886040A0B0E0A9C0B020E0402070D019D@comcast.net> "The legal definition of torture has been much aired in recent years, and I take �Mamma Mia!� to be a useful contribution to that debate. In a way, the whole film is a startling twist on the black art of rendition: ordinary citizens, often unaware of their own guilt, are spirited off to a secure environment in Eastern Europe, there to be forced into a humiliating and often painful confession of sins past. �I tried to reach for you, but you have closed your mind,� in the bitter words of Sam. I thought that Pierce Brosnan had been dragged to the edge of endurance by North Korean sadists in his final Bond film, �Die Another Day,� but that was a quick tickle with a feather duster compared with the agony of singing Abba�s �S.O.S.� to Meryl Streep through a kitchen window. Somebody, either a cheeky Swede or another North Korean, has deliberately scored the number a tone and a half too high, with visible results: swelling muscles along the jawline, tightened throat, a panicky bulge in the eyes. There is no delicate way of putting this, but anyone watching Brosnan in mid-delivery will conclude that he has recently suffered from a series of complex digestive problems, and that the camera has, with unfortunate timing, caught him at the exact moment when he is finally working them out. What has he done to deserve this?" http://www.newyorker.com/arts/critics/cinema/2008/07/28/080728crci_cinema_lane From robinlandseadel at comcast.net Sun Jul 27 09:29:44 2008 From: robinlandseadel at comcast.net (robinlandseadel at comcast.net) Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2008 14:29:44 +0000 Subject: More NP from the New Yorker: Virginia Woolf in 3-D Message-ID: <072720081429.12909.488C8658000306AE0000326D2216554886040A0B0E0A9C0B020E0402070D019D@comcast.net> "Only in selected cinemas will �Journey to the Center of the Earth� be available in 3-D. Those condemned to view it in two dimensions will be left in mild bewilderment, since many details have been selected for no purpose other than the flaunting of three-dimensional oomph. A trilobitic bug scurries on at the start and waves its enormous feelers in our direction. That, however, is the extent of its performance, and the bug might wonder, like an ing�nue asked to remove her clothes, if such exposure was artistically justified. Next up are the yo-yo and the tape measure, both of which come zooming out of the screen, and I can�t help thinking of other films that would have been improved by a blast of 3-D; I might not have nodded off during �The Hours,� for example, if regularly prodded awake by the giant schnozzle of Virginia Woolf." From against.the.dave at gmail.com Sun Jul 27 09:31:12 2008 From: against.the.dave at gmail.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2008 09:31:12 -0500 Subject: Mingus' Magnum Opus: 'Epitaph' In Concert Message-ID: Mingus' Magnum Opus: 'Epitaph' In Concert NPR.org, July 24, 2008 - As creative chair for jazz at the Los Angeles Philharmonic, bass player Christian McBride gets to program four concerts a year. The moment he got the job, he put Charles Mingus' monumental, 2 1/2-hour jazz symphony "Epitaph" at the top of his list. When you hear Mingus' music, that's about as advanced as you can get," McBride says. "But it's always rooted — it's always coming out of that real indigenous black tradition. I'm talking about, like, work songs and gospel, you know, all the way up through Ellington, all the way up through the strife of the '60s. All of that is in his music." Jazz historian and composer Gunther Schuller conducted the entire concert in front of a 31-piece jazz orchestra. He says that Charles Mingus was a man of many moods — and that he sees them in the very fabric of Mingus' masterpiece. "I knew him quite well," Schuller says. "He could be as gentle as a baby, and he could also be so full of tantrums and explosive and angry, and all of this range of feelings is in this piece. It's all there: It's like a musical picture of Mingus' personality — from the most beautiful gentle ballads, lyric pieces, to these extremely chaotic, disorganized, wild pieces." By the time "Epitaph" premiered in 1962, Mingus was already well-known as a composer, bandleader, and virtuoso bass player, a musician who had worked with Miles Davis, Charlie Parker, and Duke Ellington, among others. But how Mingus came to write the piece remains something of a mystery. Gunther Schuller says Mingus probably composed most of the piece over a three-year period in the late '50s. He scored it for a 31-piece double jazz orchestra, and got an all-star group to play it. But the first performance was a travesty. "There's this famous, legendary disastrous concert and recording session in Town Hall [in New York], where I happened to be present," Schuller says. "And it was one of the most chaotic and frustrating and disastrous concerts that anybody has ever heard, because the music was so difficult and so strange. He hadn't had a chance to rehearse it properly and the copyists were, indeed, even still copying some of the music –- it wasn't even fully ready. And so the musicians couldn't handle it, and so eventually the concert was aborted when the union stage crew said, 'Wait a minute, it's midnight, we've gotta stop this.'" Distraught, Mingus never visited the score again in his lifetime. But 10 years after his death in 1979, the score — four feet high and 4,235 measures long — was discovered in a closet in his apartment. Composer and arranger Andrew Homzy reconstructed it, and Schuller conducted the premiere in 1989. According to Schuller, the work was titled "Epitaph," because a few movements in the score had that word in block letters. Astonishingly, when the enormous score for "Epitaph" was found, it was missing one thing -– a finale. So Schuller says that he and the band improvised one, using Mingus as a guide. "I decided, in putting this piece together, that we should do what he did so many times in his own appearances at clubs with his groups –- that is to say, he dictated an ending," he says. "And he would cue everybody: What they should do and when they play and be hollering and playing on his bass at the same time. And so we did something like that for the entire orchestra." http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=92884124 From ottosell at googlemail.com Sun Jul 27 10:02:15 2008 From: ottosell at googlemail.com (Otto) Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2008 17:02:15 +0200 Subject: Freddie Quinn - Wir Message-ID: FREDDY QUINN: WIR Wer will nicht mit Gammlern verwechselt werden? WIR! Wer sorgt sich um den Frieden auf Erden? WIR! Ihr lungert herum in Parks und in Gassen, wer kann eure sinnlose Faulheit nicht fassen? WIR! WIR! WIR! Wer hat den Mut, für euch sich zu schämen? WIR! Freddie Quinn - Wir Wer läßt sich unsere Zukunft nicht nehmen?WIR! Wer sieht euch alte Kirchen beschmieren, und muß vor euch jede Achtung verlieren? WIR! WIR! WIR! Denn jemand muß da sein, der nicht nur vernichtet, der uns unseren Glauben erhält, der lernt, der sich bildet, sein Pensum verrichtet, zum Aufbau der morgigen Welt. Die Welt von Morgen sind bereits heute WIR! Wer bleibt nichtewig die lautstarke Meute? WIR! Wer sagt sogar, daß Arbeit nur schändet, so gelangweilt, so maßlos geblendet? IHR! IHR! IHR! Wer will nochmal mit euch offen sprechen? WIR! Wer hat natürlich auch seine Schwächen? WIR! Wer hat sogar so ähnliche Maschen, auch lange Haare, nur sind sie gewaschen? WIR! WIR! WIR! Auch wir sind für Härte, auch wir tragen Bärte, auch wir geh´n oft viel zu weit. Doch manchmal im Guten, in stillen Minuten, da tut uns verschiedenes leid. Wer hat noch nicht die Hoffnung verloren? WIR! Und dankt noch denen, die uns geboren? WIR! Doch wer will weiter nur protestieren, bis nichts mehr da ist zum protestieren? IHR! IHR! IHR! From against.the.dave at gmail.com Sun Jul 27 11:18:37 2008 From: against.the.dave at gmail.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2008 11:18:37 -0500 Subject: IPW 2008: Some Pictures and more In-Reply-To: <48750902.9030902@yahoo.fr> References: <48750902.9030902@yahoo.fr> Message-ID: On Wed, Jul 9, 2008 at 1:52 PM, Michel Ryckx wrote: > Will try to write something on IPW 2008 this weekend -- it was great, really > great: the usual suspects, and some brilliant new voices. Any word anybody on where the proceedings'll be next year? I think I might at long last have to make the effort ... From against.the.dave at gmail.com Sun Jul 27 11:21:53 2008 From: against.the.dave at gmail.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2008 11:21:53 -0500 Subject: The 85 Weirdest, Day 69: Thomas Pynchon Message-ID: Weird Tales Sat 26 Jul 2008 The 85 Weirdest, Day 69: Thomas Pynchon The 85th anniversary issue of Weird Tales features our big list of "The 85 Weirdest Storytellers of the Past 85 Years." We're breaking it down online, too: one honoree per day, in no particular order, for 85 days! If not for space and time, everything would happen all at once. Maybe that's what happened to the reclusive THOMAS PYNCHON (1937– ) decades ago, as his books are chock-full of everything. Anarchism, Boy's Own fiction, Tesla, the aether, very very smart dogs, the Hollow Earth, and dirigibles — and that's just in his latest  novel. More prized than read, Pynchon will likely go down in history famed as the guy who played himself on The Simpsons with a bag over his head. http://weirdtales.net/wordpress/2008/07/26/the-85-weirdest-day-69-thomas-pynchon/ From against.the.dave at gmail.com Sun Jul 27 11:30:04 2008 From: against.the.dave at gmail.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2008 11:30:04 -0500 Subject: Michael Chabon is serious about genre Message-ID: Michael Chabon is serious about genre The Pulitzer Prize-winning author says serious writing takes many forms. By Scott Timberg, Los Angeles Times Staff Writer July 27, 2008 MICHAEL CHABON, the author of novels such as the exuberant, Pulitzer-winning "The Amazing Adventures of Kavalier & Clay" and "The Yiddish Policemen's Union," an alternate-universe story that recently won the Nebula Award, has long harbored a passion: to make the literary world safe for genre fiction, and to expand the notion of what a serious work of fiction can be. "Entertainment has a bad name," begins the opening essay of his new collection "Maps and Legends," called "Trickster in a Suit of Lights." "Serious people learn to mistrust and even revile it. The word wears spandex, pasties, a leisure suit studded with blinking lights." We spoke to Chabon, 45, from his home in Berkeley about his crusade to save comics, science fiction, fantasy, horror and detective fiction from condescension. --- Let's start with some of the pulp or genre writers who have spoken to you over the years and perhaps inspired your own books. There are so many. Raymond Chandler, Ross Macdonald, Ross Thomas, Ursula K. Le Guin, Frank Herbert, Michael Moorcock, Ray Bradbury, Jack Kirby, Steve Gerber, Alan Moore. And there are a whole list of borderland writers -- John Crowley, Jorge Luis Borges, Stephen Millhauser, Thomas Pynchon -- writers who can dwell between worlds. Where did this bias against work created for a popular audience come from? In all fairness, it came from the fact that the vast preponderance of art created for a mass audience is crap. It's impossible to ignore that. But the vast preponderance of work written as literary art is high-toned crap. The proportion may settle down in the neighborhood of 90/10 -- Sturgeon's Law said that 90% of everything is crud. Let's talk about this in a specific instance -- Cormac McCarthy's novel "The Road" and its reception. I thought it was an excellent novel. The least interesting thing to me as a reader was that it was science fiction. It presented a very pure example of post-apocalyptic literature, pared down to the essentials of a post-apocalyptic vision. But it's nothing that anybody reading science fiction over the last 60 or 70 years hasn't seen done many, many times before -- maybe not by writers of McCarthy's caliber. In terms of the vision it was presenting, it was notable only for the intense, McCarthy severity. In fact, I responded to it much more as a work of horror fiction. But the response you saw out there generally was the sort of oh-my-God isn't this incredible, Cormac McCarthy has written a science fiction novel! Sometimes a little bit of a panic sets in, where critics aren't sure what to do about it or say about it. And when this happens, when a writer of unassailable literary reputation, like McCarthy, does produce a work of genre fiction, under his own name, unlike say John Banville, the critical machine prints out and issues a pass to a writer: "This isn't science fiction, because it was written by Cormac McCarthy." Or, "We think all science fiction is bad, unless it's written by a Margaret Atwood or Cormac McCarthy." In some ways the book may be closer to a work of prophecy, biblical prophecy, than anything else, and that's what we're responding to. Ultimately with any great work of art, whether it was written by a Ray Bradbury or a Philip K. Dick or Cormac McCarthy, it's really the intensity with which it's been imagined and been brought into language. The conventional argument is that the literary writer's work is well imagined, well written, and the genre author can't write. Every so often a writer hacks and crawls out of the brambles of genre. Somebody like Philip K. Dick clearly began in the pulps, writing mass commercial fiction. Almost by dint of the passion of his fans, and the intensity of his vision, and all of that stuff, eventually he ends up getting canonized in Library of America. But those are much more the exceptions. Dick made that transition in a big way. He had intelligence, vision and so on -- without ever becoming what you'd traditionally call a good writer. He wrote much too quickly, there's no doubt about that. The pressure to write quickly is not good for any writer, no matter how gifted and intelligent, and it wasn't good for him. I wonder if Philip Pullman's tendency to fall between categories with the "His Dark Materials" books -- they're kind of kids books, kind of for adults, kind of fantasy, kind of literary -- made it hard for the movie of "The Golden Compass" to find an audience. Maybe, but maybe it's that the movie wasn't that great. To me that's what makes a writer interesting: When a writer is sort of like a ball bearing caught between the magnetic fields, all positioned just right so the ball bearing floats in the air, wobbling because it's in this highly excited position, barely holding its place. You see that in Pullman at his best. Pullman sort of, in a sense, may come back to the idea of pressure to publish frequently. He's written other good books, for young readers, but he was on a more traditional publishing schedule, turning out books very regularly, in series. But then he hit "The Golden Compass" and he slowed down and took his time. Not to say that great works of literature haven't been written in very brief periods of time. Sometimes the words come tumbling out in this white heat of composition. It's not a reliable indicator, but sometimes it's what separates a routine or genre writer from one we see as "a true artist." I wonder if national origins have a role in this. This country was founded by Puritans, who considered any kind of aesthetic pleasure to be idolatry. While Britain evolved out of a tradition of myths and legends and folk tales, which you can see in Tolkien and elsewhere. They may be less eager to make those kinds of distinctions and keep them rigid. When I look at the British pop charts, for example, I'm always surprised at the British Top 40 and what a strange mixture of incredibly refined and edgy kinds of taste are represented there alongside pap and stuff that you would never see here. It's mixed together in this wonderful jumble that seems a lot less stratified. Some of that same sensibility might be reflected in literature as well. It's certainly true in other countries. It's not an accident that we had the auteur theory developing in France: Those critics were watching Hitchcock films and John Ford films and Howard Hawks films and westerns and crime films and decided that they were clearly great works of art. H.P. Lovecraft too was acclaimed as a great American writer in France much sooner than here. When the Library of America included Lovecraft, there were a lot of people here who were smirking about it. It seems like behind your essays is this larger argument about childhood, which you seem to think our culture has misunderstood in some ways. Childhood is a subject I talk about a lot. I haven't thought it through to know how much it has to do with what I'm saying about fiction and the short story. But there is unquestionably a connection for me between the maps I encountered as a young reader -- the endpaper maps -- and the maps I created for himself, both literally drew myself, of imaginary lands I was trying to bring into existence, and the internal maps I was creating of the world that I lived in, the world that I played in -- the neighborhood. . . . Where the mean dogs were, where the mean dads were, where the bad kids hung out. All of that was intimately connected in my mind with what I was reading. I don't think there's any question that kids aren't sent out to play with the same kind of freedom anymore, at least not where I live. I would say, "Bye, Mom," and I'd be gone all day long. It felt like such a porous boundary, between my physical world, in which I enacted my imaginary games, and the world I was reading about in the books I loved. They fed each other. What happens when you take out one huge part of that -- what happens to kids' imaginations? And when you talk about crossing boundaries, seamlessly flipping from the imaginary to the real and back again, that's what I'm looking at with the writers I love. In some ways the traditional highbrow argument can seem rather silly: "If we don't privilege and protect certain kind of work, it'll all be 'American Idol' all the time." That the forces of commercial culture will swamp all the good stuff. Unquestionably -- it's not just futile, it's ultimately destructive to try to fence things in that way. Robert Frost said, "Something there is that does not love a wall." http://www.latimes.com/features/books/la-ca-chabon27-2008jul27,0,7653961.story From mryc2903 at yahoo.fr Sun Jul 27 12:35:15 2008 From: mryc2903 at yahoo.fr (Michel Ryckx) Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2008 19:35:15 +0200 Subject: IPW 2008: Some Pictures and more In-Reply-To: References: <48750902.9030902@yahoo.fr> Message-ID: <488CB1D3.2030001@yahoo.fr> Poland. Lublin. Z. Kolbusewska organising -- no call for papers yet. Zofia is 1 of the funniest persons I ever met. Polish caretaker, anyone? Dave Monroe schreef: > Any word anybody on where the proceedings'll be next year? I think I > might at long last have to make the effort ... > > > ___________________________________________________________________________ Yahoo! Mail r�invente le mail ! D�couvrez le nouveau Yahoo! Mail et son interface r�volutionnaire. http://fr.mail.yahoo.com From against.the.dave at gmail.com Sun Jul 27 13:23:10 2008 From: against.the.dave at gmail.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2008 13:23:10 -0500 Subject: IPW 2008: Some Pictures and more In-Reply-To: <488CB1D3.2030001@yahoo.fr> References: <48750902.9030902@yahoo.fr> <488CB1D3.2030001@yahoo.fr> Message-ID: On Sun, Jul 27, 2008 at 12:35 PM, Michel Ryckx wrote: > Poland. Lublin. Z. Kolbusewska organising -- no call for papers yet. Born Polish, raised Irish. I'll be the brother man in the motherland ... From igrlivingston at gmail.com Sun Jul 27 16:29:06 2008 From: igrlivingston at gmail.com (Ian Livingston) Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2008 14:29:06 -0700 Subject: The 85 Weirdest, Day 69: Thomas Pynchon In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <95cde1ee0807271429y7259ccc8o7c27dfd0b8d692f5@mail.gmail.com> More prized than read, Pynchon will likely go down in history famed as the guy who played himself on The Simpsons with a bag over his head. You know, Herman Melville, too, was despised by the critics and the uneducated mob. if it weren't for a few people who were able to get beyond the point of trying to make something brilliant seem lame so they could look smart, Melville might have fallen into oblivion for much longer than he did. The self-centered mind sees little of the world. "Weird" might be seen as a great compliment from someone who sees no further than the t.v. Of course, it is true that few people grok Melville even today. But he remains the grand man of American fiction and more people have heard of the white whale than any of Melville's contemporaries would have dreamed possible. And I do believe that TRP has given us metaphors that will long outlive his detractors or memory of who they were. Has anyone researched the history, for example of the "peace sign"? Of course, on Churchill's hand it was a V-for victory, but it was next taken up by anti-nuke radicals in London in the late fifties. It was from there it filtered into the popular non-verbal lexicon. How much metaphorical breadth will the V accrue in our lives? In the generations that follow us? How much of its depth will be revealed? On Sun, Jul 27, 2008 at 9:21 AM, Dave Monroe wrote: > Weird Tales > Sat 26 Jul 2008 > The 85 Weirdest, Day 69: Thomas Pynchon > > The 85th anniversary issue of Weird Tales features our big list of > "The 85 Weirdest Storytellers of the Past 85 Years." We're breaking it > down online, too: one honoree per day, in no particular order, for 85 > days! > > If not for space and time, everything would happen all at once. Maybe > that's what happened to the reclusive THOMAS PYNCHON (1937– ) decades > ago, as his books are chock-full of everything. Anarchism, Boy's Own > fiction, Tesla, the aether, very very smart dogs, the Hollow Earth, > and dirigibles — and that's just in his latest novel. More prized > than read, Pynchon will likely go down in history famed as the guy who > played himself on The Simpsons with a bag over his head. > > > http://weirdtales.net/wordpress/2008/07/26/the-85-weirdest-day-69-thomas-pynchon/ > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From markekohut at yahoo.com Sun Jul 27 17:57:31 2008 From: markekohut at yahoo.com (Mark Kohut) Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2008 15:57:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Fw: V., a peace sign........... Message-ID: <281959.72281.qm@web38408.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- On Sun, 7/27/08, Mark Kohut wrote: > From: Mark Kohut > Subject: V., a peace sign........... > To: "Ian Livingston" > Date: Sunday, July 27, 2008, 6:56 PM > More in a minute but Yes, I too have researched the peace > sign....a V of course.....(which I think may be part of > TRPs meaning to V. )............ > Aleister Crowley, one bad boy who one p-lister knows the > work of well and > thinks is oft alluded-to in AtD, also claims to have > invented the peace > sign........................................ > > > --- On Sun, 7/27/08, Ian Livingston > wrote: > > > From: Ian Livingston > > Subject: Re: The 85 Weirdest, Day 69: Thomas Pynchon > > To: "Dave Monroe" > , "pynchon -l" > > > Date: Sunday, July 27, 2008, 5:29 PM > > More prized > > than read, Pynchon will likely go down in history > famed as > > the guy who > > played himself on The Simpsons with a bag over his > head. > > > > You know, Herman Melville, too, was despised by the > critics > > and the > > uneducated mob. if it weren't for a few people > who > > were able to get beyond > > the point of trying to make something brilliant seem > lame > > so they could look > > smart, Melville might have fallen into oblivion for > much > > longer than he > > did. The self-centered mind sees little of the world. > > > "Weird" might be > > seen as a great compliment from someone who sees no > further > > than the t.v. > > Of course, it is true that few people grok Melville > even > > today. But he > > remains the grand man of American fiction and more > people > > have heard of the > > white whale than any of Melville's contemporaries > would > > have dreamed > > possible. > > > > And I do believe that TRP has given us metaphors that > will > > long outlive his > > detractors or memory of who they were. Has anyone > > researched the history, > > for example of the "peace sign"? Of course, > on > > Churchill's hand it was a > > V-for victory, but it was next taken up by anti-nuke > > radicals in London in > > the late fifties. It was from there it filtered into > the > > popular non-verbal > > lexicon. How much metaphorical breadth will the V > accrue > > in our lives? In > > the generations that follow us? How much of its depth > will > > be revealed? > > > > On Sun, Jul 27, 2008 at 9:21 AM, Dave Monroe > > wrote: > > > > > Weird Tales > > > Sat 26 Jul 2008 > > > The 85 Weirdest, Day 69: Thomas Pynchon > > > > > > The 85th anniversary issue of Weird Tales > features our > > big list of > > > "The 85 Weirdest Storytellers of the Past 85 > > Years." We're breaking it > > > down online, too: one honoree per day, in no > > particular order, for 85 > > > days! > > > > > > If not for space and time, everything would > happen all > > at once. Maybe > > > that's what happened to the reclusive THOMAS > > PYNCHON (1937– ) decades > > > ago, as his books are chock-full of everything. > > Anarchism, Boy's Own > > > fiction, Tesla, the aether, very very smart dogs, > the > > Hollow Earth, > > > and dirigibles — and that's just in his > latest > > novel. More prized > > > than read, Pynchon will likely go down in history > > famed as the guy who > > > played himself on The Simpsons with a bag over > his > > head. > > > > > > > > > > > > http://weirdtales.net/wordpress/2008/07/26/the-85-weirdest-day-69-thomas-pynchon/ > > > > > > From markekohut at yahoo.com Sun Jul 27 18:13:08 2008 From: markekohut at yahoo.com (Mark Kohut) Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2008 16:13:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: melville and pynchon Message-ID: <502077.72140.qm@web38402.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Melville's first two 'travel fictions" were bestsellers, then he got deeper, better and his public [critics and readers] rejected him...... "Moby Dick".........."all that whale bull, Mr. Melville, come off it"]... Moby Dick sold 50 (fifty),copies in its first year......Sue Warner's Wide Wide World, approx the same time, went thru 16 printings of at least 2,000 each, for example................. Melville died in oblivion...................... rediscovered only by a few American scholars starting in the 1920s......and his depth is stil being explored....... Pynchon will grow and grow as Melville has since the 20s, I say....... or since Faulkner, almost all his work out of print until one guy started his revival right befor he won the Nobel...................... --- On Sun, 7/27/08, Ian Livingston wrote: > From: Ian Livingston > Subject: Re: The 85 Weirdest, Day 69: Thomas Pynchon > To: "Dave Monroe" , "pynchon -l" > Date: Sunday, July 27, 2008, 5:29 PM > More prized > than read, Pynchon will likely go down in history famed as > the guy who > played himself on The Simpsons with a bag over his head. > > You know, Herman Melville, too, was despised by the critics > and the > uneducated mob. if it weren't for a few people who > were able to get beyond > the point of trying to make something brilliant seem lame > so they could look > smart, Melville might have fallen into oblivion for much > longer than he > did. The self-centered mind sees little of the world. > "Weird" might be > seen as a great compliment from someone who sees no further > than the t.v. > Of course, it is true that few people grok Melville even > today. But he > remains the grand man of American fiction and more people > have heard of the > white whale than any of Melville's contemporaries would > have dreamed > possible. > > And I do believe that TRP has given us metaphors that will > long outlive his > detractors or memory of who they were. Has anyone > researched the history, > for example of the "peace sign"? Of course, on > Churchill's hand it was a > V-for victory, but it was next taken up by anti-nuke > radicals in London in > the late fifties. It was from there it filtered into the > popular non-verbal > lexicon. How much metaphorical breadth will the V accrue > in our lives? In > the generations that follow us? How much of its depth will > be revealed? > > On Sun, Jul 27, 2008 at 9:21 AM, Dave Monroe > wrote: > > > Weird Tales > > Sat 26 Jul 2008 > > The 85 Weirdest, Day 69: Thomas Pynchon > > > > The 85th anniversary issue of Weird Tales features our > big list of > > "The 85 Weirdest Storytellers of the Past 85 > Years." We're breaking it > > down online, too: one honoree per day, in no > particular order, for 85 > > days! > > > > If not for space and time, everything would happen all > at once. Maybe > > that's what happened to the reclusive THOMAS > PYNCHON (1937– ) decades > > ago, as his books are chock-full of everything. > Anarchism, Boy's Own > > fiction, Tesla, the aether, very very smart dogs, the > Hollow Earth, > > and dirigibles — and that's just in his latest > novel. More prized > > than read, Pynchon will likely go down in history > famed as the guy who > > played himself on The Simpsons with a bag over his > head. > > > > > > > http://weirdtales.net/wordpress/2008/07/26/the-85-weirdest-day-69-thomas-pynchon/ > > > > From isread at btinternet.com Mon Jul 28 02:47:53 2008 From: isread at btinternet.com (Paul Nightingale) Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2008 08:47:53 +0100 Subject: From Hilbert's problems to the future Message-ID: <000301c8f086$3e5a7a60$bb0f6f20$@com> http://www.gresham.ac.uk/event.asp?PageId=108&EventId=628 From markekohut at yahoo.com Mon Jul 28 09:34:34 2008 From: markekohut at yahoo.com (Mark Kohut) Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2008 07:34:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: AtD (37) p. 1055, Kafkaesque dream, guilt, paranoia, Where is LAPD? Message-ID: <170635.3013.qm@web38405.mail.mud.yahoo.com> P 1055 Deuce's dream is kafkaesque? He is assumed to be guilty,---"hell, so did he [think he was guilty]", "there were others", although we do not know of what---An inquiry by a cadre of Californian youth.........paranoia again. The dwelling in which the dream takes place has a spiral staircse inside a round stone wall......Stone walls as in the old European villages and a spiral staircase as in twisting Hollywood noir movies [famous hitchcock one?]. [Not that TRP is so alluding but I remember the first nancy Drew mystery I ever read, "The Mystery of The Spiral Staircase".. "The early light coming through it [the dkylight] a dusty rose color". That early morning light motif, first noticed (maybe; not sure) by Mike B. It is there in GR, Vineland, earlier in AtD and elsewhere. "there is a crack in everything [even the darkness], that's how the light gets in."---Leonard Cohen [except for the bracket part]. Sinister Californian youth..brilliant as arc lamps (very negative in TRPs world, of course)...."unlimited power" [baddest shit].......ramping up Deuce's paranoia. he asks Where is the LAPD?, which shows, with another sly Pynchon joke, how bad it must feel. Deuce hasn't lived an exemplary life, to say the least, but is this section to also show 1) he has an unconscious conscience, at least? 2) Hollywood--the dream factory, as it has been called-- creates fear/paranoia no matter who we are? From against.the.dave at gmail.com Mon Jul 28 11:03:47 2008 From: against.the.dave at gmail.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2008 11:03:47 -0500 Subject: It's hard to believe Thomas Pynchon wrote a sentence as bad as this one Message-ID: 27.7.08 It's hard to believe Thomas Pynchon wrote a sentence as bad as this one. "After she had given in to the notion of being doubled up on, she found herself going out of the way looking for it, usually one in her mouth, the other from behind, sometimes in her ass, so she got quickly used to tasting her own fluids mixed with shit." There's more before and after that, mentions of being chained to a bed with leather hobbles and an instance of "you dirty fuckmouth whore" but that sentence is representative of the section of "Against the Day" in question. I've seen it referred to as the "Cowboy S+M" section; it's just one page but it's so poorly written and oddly out of place that I've been puzzling about it on and off since I read it. The rest of the book is excellent. Hugh Kenner wrote a little piece about Joyce beginning "Ulysses" in naturalism and ending it in parody and in "Against the Day" Pynchon seems so far to take the opposite tack, the entire book opening firmly in a parody of boy's adventure magazine (Doc Savage-type stuff) but becoming more grounded in tone as the demands of reality intrude on the characters. So there are the Chums of Chance and their airship The Inconvenience in the aforementioned whiz-bang mode, Lew Basnight beginning in a Kafkaesque version of Chicago (complete with unspecified sins and surreal dive hotels) and proceeding through the American West to England and a version of Blavatsky and Yeats's mysticisms, Merle Rideout and his daughter Dahlia in an off-kilter version of "Paper Moon" and so on, all at the turn of the century, and alternately interacting and working at cross-purposes. The S+M scene is part of the Western revenge saga of the Traverse family that takes up large parts of the book at a time and which actually I frequently find the hardest sections to get through, though I'm trying to reserve judgment until I actually finish the whole thing. That particular scene makes sense as regards the motifs of the book, the journeys of the characters involved, and setting up a situation which will apparently be crucial to the Traverse storyline but it's the execution of it that bugs me. Maybe Pynchon was parodying cheap smut like Tijuana Bibles or Penthouse stories but that's a stretch, it doesn't read as parody or homage in any way . . . I respect Pynchon's writing ability, so it comes as even more a surprise, especially in the middle of a work so well-written and elsewise engaging. My only other experience with Pynchon is the first 30 or so pages of "Gravity's Rainbow" but I've read about him and some miscellanea of his, letters, essays etc. and many of his pet interests and issues show up in "Against the Day", some reviewers having called it a sort of summation of his life's writing (guy is pretty old by now). Ideas about capitalism, the use of anarchy as a way to oppose industrialization and its effect on worker's rights, the acquisition of technology for profitable or military means, the uses of theories and hypotheses otherwise marginalized by the mainstream scientific community and, very interesting to me, the sense of a fictive space (that term is used in reference to the Chums of Chance, with Lew Basnight it's the Invisible Area, and to the scientists it's the is it/isn't it existence of a substance called Aether), a space where these characters can exist indefinitely, only half-seen by the rest of society, but a space constantly threatened by the encroachment of actual "reality", usually represented by the needs of industrialists like Scarsdale Vibe or the shadowy Organization that sends the Chums on their missions. An early example is the first chapter, where the 1893 Chicago World's Fair is described as wrapped in fiction and wonder, but the moment the Chums leave it, they're prey to regular human emotions and pettiness, reflected by a shift in their dialogue and the narrative voice. Parallels can also be drawn to the current political climate, if that's your thing. Blinded by their own arrogance and confidence in their abilities, a scientific expedition brings a horrible power to a large metropolis (never named, but clearly New York City), initiating one cataclysmic night of flames where people flee giant clouds of smoke that rush down the city streets, and clog transit systems in a panic to escape. The city is afterward described as forgetting the actual event, the nature and significance of the attack, only remembering a vague injury to their superiority and paying their respects to it by leaving the charred portion of the city intact, establishing it as a memorial by erecting a gate with a quote from Dante etched on the arch. All in all, an excellent book so far and one I don't mind as my introduction to Pynchon, but I'd still like answers about the cowboy threesome. http://phenoptosis.blogspot.com/2008/07/its-hard-to-believe-thomas-pynchon.html "No symbols where none intended." --Samuel Beckett From kelber at mindspring.com Mon Jul 28 12:02:07 2008 From: kelber at mindspring.com (kelber at mindspring.com) Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2008 13:02:07 -0400 (EDT) Subject: AtD (37) p. 1055, Kafkaesque dream, guilt, paranoia, Where is LAPD? Message-ID: <6095156.1217264527418.JavaMail.root@elwamui-royal.atl.sa.earthlink.net> The Spiral Staircase (1945) http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0038975/ isn't a Hitchcock film, and, although many of its scenes take place in the dark, its characters aren't stock film noir characters. It's about a serial killer who attacks disabled women. If Deuce is now a serial killer, the reference makes sense. The Hitchcock classic Vertigo also contains a staircase in a stone tower, a kind of squared-off spiral staircase. The Nancy Drew book Is The Hidden Staircase (not at all spiral, no murder involved). It's interesting how Deuce makes the transition from Pulp Western bad guy to Film Noir bad guy. It implies that there's something static about evil (if not evil, "badness") -- it's not just a socio-historic construct (sorry, I'm really beginning to blather -- need caffeine). Perhaps the next incarnation of Deuce is Brock Vond? Maybe a character in a 70s TV show? Anyone up for a group read of Vineland next? Laura -----Original Message----- >From: Mark Kohut >Sent: Jul 28, 2008 10:34 AM >To: pynchon -l >Subject: AtD (37) p. 1055, Kafkaesque dream, guilt, paranoia, Where is LAPD? > >P 1055 >Deuce's dream is kafkaesque? He is assumed to be guilty,---"hell, so did he [think he was guilty]", "there were others", although we do not know of what---An inquiry by a cadre of Californian youth.........paranoia again. > >The dwelling in which the dream takes place has a spiral staircse inside a round stone wall......Stone walls as in the old European villages and a spiral staircase as in twisting Hollywood noir movies [famous hitchcock one?]. [Not that TRP is so alluding but I remember the first nancy Drew mystery I ever read, "The Mystery of The Spiral Staircase".. > >"The early light coming through it [the dkylight] a dusty rose color". That early morning light motif, first noticed (maybe; not sure) by Mike B. It is there in GR, Vineland, earlier in AtD and elsewhere. >"there is a crack in everything [even the darkness], that's how the light gets in."---Leonard Cohen [except for the bracket part]. > >Sinister Californian youth..brilliant as arc lamps (very negative in TRPs world, of course)...."unlimited power" [baddest shit].......ramping up Deuce's paranoia. he asks Where is the LAPD?, which shows, with another sly Pynchon joke, how bad it must feel. > >Deuce hasn't lived an exemplary life, to say the least, but is this section to also show 1) he has an unconscious conscience, at least? >2) Hollywood--the dream factory, as it has been called-- creates fear/paranoia no matter who we are? > > > > > > From kelber at mindspring.com Mon Jul 28 12:07:31 2008 From: kelber at mindspring.com (kelber at mindspring.com) Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2008 13:07:31 -0400 (EDT) Subject: It's hard to believe Thomas Pynchon wrote a sentence as bad as this one Message-ID: <8362828.1217264852014.JavaMail.root@elwamui-royal.atl.sa.earthlink.net> The "Reader, she bit him" sequence on p. 666 evoked similarly negative reactions. Was it a bad parody of Jane Austen or just bad? It's always possible to ascribe complex motivations behind every sentence, every decision TRP makes, but sometimes a Tatzelwurm is just a Tatzelwurm. Laura -----Original Message----- >From: Dave Monroe >Sent: Jul 28, 2008 12:03 PM >To: Pynchon-L >Subject: It's hard to believe Thomas Pynchon wrote a sentence as bad as this one > >27.7.08 >It's hard to believe Thomas Pynchon wrote a sentence as bad as this one. > >"After she had given in to the notion of being doubled up on, she >found herself going out of the way looking for it, usually one in her >mouth, the other from behind, sometimes in her ass, so she got quickly >used to tasting her own fluids mixed with shit." > >There's more before and after that, mentions of being chained to a bed >with leather hobbles and an instance of "you dirty fuckmouth whore" >but that sentence is representative of the section of "Against the >Day" in question. I've seen it referred to as the "Cowboy S+M" >section; it's just one page but it's so poorly written and oddly out >of place that I've been puzzling about it on and off since I read it. > >The rest of the book is excellent. Hugh Kenner wrote a little piece >about Joyce beginning "Ulysses" in naturalism and ending it in parody >and in "Against the Day" Pynchon seems so far to take the opposite >tack, the entire book opening firmly in a parody of boy's adventure >magazine (Doc Savage-type stuff) but becoming more grounded in tone as >the demands of reality intrude on the characters. So there are the >Chums of Chance and their airship The Inconvenience in the >aforementioned whiz-bang mode, Lew Basnight beginning in a Kafkaesque >version of Chicago (complete with unspecified sins and surreal dive >hotels) and proceeding through the American West to England and a >version of Blavatsky and Yeats's mysticisms, Merle Rideout and his >daughter Dahlia in an off-kilter version of "Paper Moon" and so on, >all at the turn of the century, and alternately interacting and >working at cross-purposes. > >The S+M scene is part of the Western revenge saga of the Traverse >family that takes up large parts of the book at a time and which >actually I frequently find the hardest sections to get through, though >I'm trying to reserve judgment until I actually finish the whole >thing. That particular scene makes sense as regards the motifs of the >book, the journeys of the characters involved, and setting up a >situation which will apparently be crucial to the Traverse storyline >but it's the execution of it that bugs me. Maybe Pynchon was parodying >cheap smut like Tijuana Bibles or Penthouse stories but that's a >stretch, it doesn't read as parody or homage in any way . . . I >respect Pynchon's writing ability, so it comes as even more a >surprise, especially in the middle of a work so well-written and >elsewise engaging. > >My only other experience with Pynchon is the first 30 or so pages of >"Gravity's Rainbow" but I've read about him and some miscellanea of >his, letters, essays etc. and many of his pet interests and issues >show up in "Against the Day", some reviewers having called it a sort >of summation of his life's writing (guy is pretty old by now). Ideas >about capitalism, the use of anarchy as a way to oppose >industrialization and its effect on worker's rights, the acquisition >of technology for profitable or military means, the uses of theories >and hypotheses otherwise marginalized by the mainstream scientific >community and, very interesting to me, the sense of a fictive space >(that term is used in reference to the Chums of Chance, with Lew >Basnight it's the Invisible Area, and to the scientists it's the is >it/isn't it existence of a substance called Aether), a space where >these characters can exist indefinitely, only half-seen by the rest of >society, but a space constantly threatened by the encroachment of >actual "reality", usually represented by the needs of industrialists >like Scarsdale Vibe or the shadowy Organization that sends the Chums >on their missions. An early example is the first chapter, where the >1893 Chicago World's Fair is described as wrapped in fiction and >wonder, but the moment the Chums leave it, they're prey to regular >human emotions and pettiness, reflected by a shift in their dialogue >and the narrative voice. > >Parallels can also be drawn to the current political climate, if >that's your thing. Blinded by their own arrogance and confidence in >their abilities, a scientific expedition brings a horrible power to a >large metropolis (never named, but clearly New York City), initiating >one cataclysmic night of flames where people flee giant clouds of >smoke that rush down the city streets, and clog transit systems in a >panic to escape. The city is afterward described as forgetting the >actual event, the nature and significance of the attack, only >remembering a vague injury to their superiority and paying their >respects to it by leaving the charred portion of the city intact, >establishing it as a memorial by erecting a gate with a quote from >Dante etched on the arch. > >All in all, an excellent book so far and one I don't mind as my >introduction to Pynchon, but I'd still like answers about the cowboy >threesome. > >http://phenoptosis.blogspot.com/2008/07/its-hard-to-believe-thomas-pynchon.html > >"No symbols where none intended." --Samuel Beckett From against.the.dave at gmail.com Mon Jul 28 12:31:21 2008 From: against.the.dave at gmail.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2008 12:31:21 -0500 Subject: Bondage Message-ID: The New York Review of Books August 14, 2008 Bondage By Geoffrey Wheatcroft Fifty years ago, a fictional spy who had gradually become famous suddenly became notorious. Dr. No was the sixth of the books that had been appearing since 1953 when Ian Fleming, a restless, cynical English newspaperman, published Casino Royale, and with the words 'The scent and smoke and sweat of a casino are nauseating at three in the morning,' James Bond first appeared. Fewer than five thousand copies were initially printed, but sales rose with each book, Bond entered the national consciousness, and his adventures began to travel, notably to America. Then in 1958 academic and journalistic critics began to look hard at this phenomenon, and did not like what they saw.... http://www.nybooks.com/articles/21712?email For Your Eyes Only: Ian Fleming and James Bond Date: 17th April 2008 to 1st March 2009 To celebrate the centenary of Ian Fleming's birth, Imperial War Museum London is producing the first major exhibition devoted to the life and work of the man who created the world's most famous secret agent, James Bond. Featuring fascinating material, much on public display for the first time, For Your Eyes Only will look at the author and his fictional character in their historical contexts and examine how much of the Bond novels were imaginary and how far they were based on real people and events. This exhibition will explore the early life of Ian Fleming, his wartime career and work as a journalist and travel writer, and how, as an author, he drew upon his own experiences to create the iconic character of James Bond. http://london.iwm.org.uk/server/show/conEvent.2104 For Your Eyes Only: Ian Fleming and James Bond http://london.iwm.org.uk/upload/package/fleming/home.html "John Kennedy's role model James Bond was about to make his name by kicking third-world people around, another extension of the boy's adventure tales a lot of us grew up reading." (SL, "Intro," p. 11) http://waste.org/mail/?list=pynchon-l&month=0211&msg=72588 http://waste.org/mail/?list=pynchon-l&month=0601&msg=99659 From markekohut at yahoo.com Mon Jul 28 13:16:17 2008 From: markekohut at yahoo.com (Mark Kohut) Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2008 11:16:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: AtD (37) p. 1055, Kafkaesque dream, guilt, paranoia, Where is LAPD? In-Reply-To: <6095156.1217264527418.JavaMail.root@elwamui-royal.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <241030.79859.qm@web38405.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Laura, Thanks for correcting and filling in my shoddy "scholarship"....(it was so bad, one can't call it that). Vertigo was the Hitchcock film I was trying to remember but I did not stop to get right...yes, spiral staircase inside a stone tower, yes.... Besides all the other rightness, I agree with your remarks about some "essential" evil in Deuce. A-and, he is at least a killer and at least in the dream feels like "there were others' [ dead women he woke up next to]. Mark --- On Mon, 7/28/08, kelber at mindspring.com wrote: > From: kelber at mindspring.com > Subject: Re: AtD (37) p. 1055, Kafkaesque dream, guilt, paranoia, Where is LAPD? > To: pynchon-l at waste.org > Date: Monday, July 28, 2008, 1:02 PM > The Spiral Staircase (1945) > > http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0038975/ > > isn't a Hitchcock film, and, although many of its > scenes take place in the dark, its characters aren't > stock film noir characters. It's about a serial killer > who attacks disabled women. If Deuce is now a serial > killer, the reference makes sense. The Hitchcock classic > Vertigo also contains a staircase in a stone tower, a kind > of squared-off spiral staircase. The Nancy Drew book Is > The Hidden Staircase (not at all spiral, no murder > involved). > > It's interesting how Deuce makes the transition from > Pulp Western bad guy to Film Noir bad guy. It implies that > there's something static about evil (if not evil, > "badness") -- it's not just a socio-historic > construct (sorry, I'm really beginning to blather -- > need caffeine). Perhaps the next incarnation of Deuce is > Brock Vond? Maybe a character in a 70s TV show? Anyone up > for a group read of Vineland next? > > Laura > > > > -----Original Message----- > >From: Mark Kohut > >Sent: Jul 28, 2008 10:34 AM > >To: pynchon -l > >Subject: AtD (37) p. 1055, Kafkaesque dream, guilt, > paranoia, Where is LAPD? > > > >P 1055 > >Deuce's dream is kafkaesque? He is assumed to be > guilty,---"hell, so did he [think he was > guilty]", "there were others", although we > do not know of what---An inquiry by a cadre of Californian > youth.........paranoia again. > > > >The dwelling in which the dream takes place has a > spiral staircse inside a round stone wall......Stone walls > as in the old European villages and a spiral staircase as > in twisting Hollywood noir movies [famous hitchcock one?]. > [Not that TRP is so alluding but I remember the first nancy > Drew mystery I ever read, "The Mystery of The Spiral > Staircase".. > > > >"The early light coming through it [the dkylight] > a dusty rose color". That early morning light motif, > first noticed (maybe; not sure) by Mike B. It is there in > GR, Vineland, earlier in AtD and elsewhere. > >"there is a crack in everything [even the > darkness], that's how the light gets > in."---Leonard Cohen [except for the bracket part]. > > > >Sinister Californian youth..brilliant as arc lamps > (very negative in TRPs world, of course)...."unlimited > power" [baddest shit].......ramping up Deuce's > paranoia. he asks Where is the LAPD?, which shows, with > another sly Pynchon joke, how bad it must feel. > > > >Deuce hasn't lived an exemplary life, to say the > least, but is this section to also show 1) he has an > unconscious conscience, at least? > >2) Hollywood--the dream factory, as it has been > called-- creates fear/paranoia no matter who we are? > > > > > > > > > > > > From markekohut at yahoo.com Mon Jul 28 13:17:45 2008 From: markekohut at yahoo.com (Mark Kohut) Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2008 11:17:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: It's hard to believe Thomas Pynchon wrote a sentence as bad as this one In-Reply-To: <8362828.1217264852014.JavaMail.root@elwamui-royal.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <999307.77225.qm@web38407.mail.mud.yahoo.com> LOL --- On Mon, 7/28/08, kelber at mindspring.com wrote: > From: kelber at mindspring.com > Subject: Re: It's hard to believe Thomas Pynchon wrote a sentence as bad as this one > To: pynchon-l at waste.org > Date: Monday, July 28, 2008, 1:07 PM > The "Reader, she bit him" sequence on p. 666 > evoked similarly negative reactions. Was it a bad parody > of Jane Austen or just bad? It's always possible to > ascribe complex motivations behind every sentence, every > decision TRP makes, but sometimes a Tatzelwurm is just a > Tatzelwurm. > > Laura > > -----Original Message----- > >From: Dave Monroe > >Sent: Jul 28, 2008 12:03 PM > >To: Pynchon-L > >Subject: It's hard to believe Thomas Pynchon wrote > a sentence as bad as this one > > > >27.7.08 > >It's hard to believe Thomas Pynchon wrote a > sentence as bad as this one. > > > >"After she had given in to the notion of being > doubled up on, she > >found herself going out of the way looking for it, > usually one in her > >mouth, the other from behind, sometimes in her ass, so > she got quickly > >used to tasting her own fluids mixed with shit." > > > >There's more before and after that, mentions of > being chained to a bed > >with leather hobbles and an instance of "you dirty > fuckmouth whore" > >but that sentence is representative of the section of > "Against the > >Day" in question. I've seen it referred to as > the "Cowboy S+M" > >section; it's just one page but it's so poorly > written and oddly out > >of place that I've been puzzling about it on and > off since I read it. > > > >The rest of the book is excellent. Hugh Kenner wrote a > little piece > >about Joyce beginning "Ulysses" in naturalism > and ending it in parody > >and in "Against the Day" Pynchon seems so far > to take the opposite > >tack, the entire book opening firmly in a parody of > boy's adventure > >magazine (Doc Savage-type stuff) but becoming more > grounded in tone as > >the demands of reality intrude on the characters. So > there are the > >Chums of Chance and their airship The Inconvenience in > the > >aforementioned whiz-bang mode, Lew Basnight beginning > in a Kafkaesque > >version of Chicago (complete with unspecified sins and > surreal dive > >hotels) and proceeding through the American West to > England and a > >version of Blavatsky and Yeats's mysticisms, Merle > Rideout and his > >daughter Dahlia in an off-kilter version of "Paper > Moon" and so on, > >all at the turn of the century, and alternately > interacting and > >working at cross-purposes. > > > >The S+M scene is part of the Western revenge saga of > the Traverse > >family that takes up large parts of the book at a time > and which > >actually I frequently find the hardest sections to get > through, though > >I'm trying to reserve judgment until I actually > finish the whole > >thing. That particular scene makes sense as regards the > motifs of the > >book, the journeys of the characters involved, and > setting up a > >situation which will apparently be crucial to the > Traverse storyline > >but it's the execution of it that bugs me. Maybe > Pynchon was parodying > >cheap smut like Tijuana Bibles or Penthouse stories but > that's a > >stretch, it doesn't read as parody or homage in any > way . . . I > >respect Pynchon's writing ability, so it comes as > even more a > >surprise, especially in the middle of a work so > well-written and > >elsewise engaging. > > > >My only other experience with Pynchon is the first 30 > or so pages of > >"Gravity's Rainbow" but I've read > about him and some miscellanea of > >his, letters, essays etc. and many of his pet interests > and issues > >show up in "Against the Day", some reviewers > having called it a sort > >of summation of his life's writing (guy is pretty > old by now). Ideas > >about capitalism, the use of anarchy as a way to oppose > >industrialization and its effect on worker's > rights, the acquisition > >of technology for profitable or military means, the > uses of theories > >and hypotheses otherwise marginalized by the mainstream > scientific > >community and, very interesting to me, the sense of a > fictive space > >(that term is used in reference to the Chums of Chance, > with Lew > >Basnight it's the Invisible Area, and to the > scientists it's the is > >it/isn't it existence of a substance called > Aether), a space where > >these characters can exist indefinitely, only half-seen > by the rest of > >society, but a space constantly threatened by the > encroachment of > >actual "reality", usually represented by the > needs of industrialists > >like Scarsdale Vibe or the shadowy Organization that > sends the Chums > >on their missions. An early example is the first > chapter, where the > >1893 Chicago World's Fair is described as wrapped > in fiction and > >wonder, but the moment the Chums leave it, they're > prey to regular > >human emotions and pettiness, reflected by a shift in > their dialogue > >and the narrative voice. > > > >Parallels can also be drawn to the current political > climate, if > >that's your thing. Blinded by their own arrogance > and confidence in > >their abilities, a scientific expedition brings a > horrible power to a > >large metropolis (never named, but clearly New York > City), initiating > >one cataclysmic night of flames where people flee giant > clouds of > >smoke that rush down the city streets, and clog transit > systems in a > >panic to escape. The city is afterward described as > forgetting the > >actual event, the nature and significance of the > attack, only > >remembering a vague injury to their superiority and > paying their > >respects to it by leaving the charred portion of the > city intact, > >establishing it as a memorial by erecting a gate with a > quote from > >Dante etched on the arch. > > > >All in all, an excellent book so far and one I > don't mind as my > >introduction to Pynchon, but I'd still like answers > about the cowboy > >threesome. > > > >http://phenoptosis.blogspot.com/2008/07/its-hard-to-believe-thomas-pynchon.html > > > >"No symbols where none intended." --Samuel > Beckett From scuffling at gmail.com Mon Jul 28 14:09:09 2008 From: scuffling at gmail.com (Henry) Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2008 15:09:09 -0400 Subject: AtD (37) p. 1055, Kafkaesque dream, guilt, paranoia, Where is LAPD? In-Reply-To: <241030.79859.qm@web38405.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <6095156.1217264527418.JavaMail.root@elwamui-royal.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <241030.79859.qm@web38405.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <006101c8f0e5$6b63f8b0$422bea10$@com> "Unforgiven," http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0105695/ is my fave rave for nuanced treatment of "he is at least a killer" considerations. They are all killers; even the whores have hired a few, but... AtD is similarly nuanced on the subject of guilt, particularly concerning this most venal of sins, IMO. Henry Mu Please contribute to Obama if you can: http://my.barackobama.com/page/outreach/view/main/PListe4Obama If you appreciate this message, or my Obama blog, http://my.barackobama.com/page/community/blog/henrymu , then how about being my friend on the My.BarackObama.com network: http://my.barackobama.com/page/socialnet/register/33qzpcr2sl -----Original Message----- From: Mark Kohut Laura, Thanks for correcting and filling in my shoddy "scholarship"....(it was so bad, one can't call it that). Vertigo was the Hitchcock film I was trying to remember but I did not stop to get right...yes, spiral staircase inside a stone tower, yes.... Besides all the other rightness, I agree with your remarks about some "essential" evil in Deuce. A-and, he is at least a killer and at least in the dream feels like "there were others' [ dead women he woke up next to]. Mark From against.the.dave at gmail.com Mon Jul 28 14:42:39 2008 From: against.the.dave at gmail.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2008 14:42:39 -0500 Subject: Doug Millison sent you a message on Facebook... In-Reply-To: <08563ca7e458033badfa2545dd222a50@www.facebook.com> References: <08563ca7e458033badfa2545dd222a50@www.facebook.com> Message-ID: http://www.facebook.com/pages/Thomas-Ruggles-Pynchon-Jr/37647770144?ref=s On Mon, Jul 28, 2008 at 2:38 PM, Facebook wrote: > Doug sent you a message. > > -------------------- > Re: P-List @ Facebook > > I'm in, now that I'm finally reading Against the Day, timely, too. > Thanks, Dave! > -Doug > -------------------- > > To reply to this message, follow the link below: > http://www.facebook.com/n/?inbox/readmessage.php&t=22012457798 > > ___ > Want to control which emails you receive from Facebook? Go to: > http://www.facebook.com/editaccount.php?notifications&md=bXNnO2Zyb209MTA1MDQzOTg5Njt0PTIyMDEyNDU3Nzk4O3RvPTcxOTIyOTE4OQ== > > > From robinlandseadel at comcast.net Mon Jul 28 18:18:24 2008 From: robinlandseadel at comcast.net (robinlandseadel at comcast.net) Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2008 23:18:24 +0000 Subject: AtD (37) p. 1055, Kafkaesque dream, guilt, paranoia, Where is LAPD? Message-ID: <072820082318.13618.488E53C0000DDCC3000035322216538496040A0B0E0A9C0B020E0402070D019D@comcast.net> Laura: Anyone up for a group read of Vineland next? I'd be up for it, someone else recommends "V.", I suggested CoL 49�all have tight connections to AtD. Vineland is about surveillance reversed, turning the cameras on the finks. Considering how much space the creation of modern-day spy networks takes up in AtD [GR, for that matter], Vineland offers up much relevant material as regards spies, spying and the creation of a permanent police state in the good old U.S.A. Vineland is also connected to AtD via the presence of Jesse Traverse and Frenesi"s taste for C.O.P.s. If it turns out to be "V.", though, I'll have a chance at connecting with a book that has left me cold ever since I first had a crack at it twenty years ago. On the one hand, the characters in "V." are the thinest in any of TRP's novels�the cardboard cutouts in Against the Day usually have something funny ha-ha to say, there's a greater amusement potential. On the other, the time frame of "V."often matches Against the Day, obviously OBA needed to tie up a lot of loose ends. I'll end by noting here, and probably later on, that la Jarreti�re's little entrance on p. 1066 is partially in the way of a belated apology for la Jarreti�re's scene in "V.", an ugly compendium of slurs and clich�s on the arts scene. La Jarreti�re returns to assure us it was only an outrageous stunt, no cause for concern. Must have been what our boy was talkin' about when he said: "It is only fair to warn even the most kindly disposed of readers that there are some mighty tiresome passages here, juvinile and deliquent too. At the same time, my best hope is that, pretentious, goofy and ill-considered as they get now and then, these stories will still be of use with all their flaws intact, as illustrative of typical problems in entry-level fiction, and cautionary about some practices which younger writers might prefer to avoid. Slow Learner page 4 From markekohut at yahoo.com Mon Jul 28 18:44:45 2008 From: markekohut at yahoo.com (Mark Kohut) Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2008 16:44:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: AtD (37) p. 1055, Kafkaesque dream, guilt, paranoia, Where is LAPD? In-Reply-To: <072820082318.13618.488E53C0000DDCC3000035322216538496040A0B0E0A9C0B020E0402070D019D@comcast.net> Message-ID: <15986.22465.qm@web38402.mail.mud.yahoo.com> I vote for the consensus.......... In fact, in a kind of homage to timelessness, I vote for maybe reading more than one at a time??? many on the the p-list is already doing that, it seems. a--and we always have more than one thread going anyway......... We can make some wonderfully contrapuntal, full orchestral sounds.......... Talk about Stravinsky!? --- On Mon, 7/28/08, robinlandseadel at comcast.net wrote: > From: robinlandseadel at comcast.net > Subject: Re: AtD (37) p. 1055, Kafkaesque dream, guilt, paranoia, Where is LAPD? > To: "P-list" > Date: Monday, July 28, 2008, 7:18 PM > Laura: > Anyone up for a group read of Vineland next? > > I'd be up for it, someone else recommends > "V.", I suggested > CoL 49—all have tight connections to AtD. > > Vineland is about surveillance reversed, turning the > cameras on the finks. > > Considering how much space the creation of modern-day spy > networks > takes up in AtD [GR, for that matter], Vineland offers up > much relevant > material as regards spies, spying and the creation of a > permanent police > state in the good old U.S.A. Vineland is also connected to > AtD via the > presence of Jesse Traverse and Frenesi"s taste for > C.O.P.s. > > If it turns out to be "V.", though, I'll have > a chance at connecting with a > book that has left me cold ever since I first had a crack > at it twenty years > ago. On the one hand, the characters in "V." are > the thinest in any of > TRP's novels—the cardboard cutouts in Against the Day > usually have > something funny ha-ha to say, there's a greater > amusement potential. > On the other, the time frame of "V."often matches > Against the Day, > obviously OBA needed to tie up a lot of loose ends. > > I'll end by noting here, and probably later on, that > la Jarretière's > little entrance on p. 1066 is partially in the way of a > belated apology for > la Jarretière's scene in "V.", an ugly > compendium of slurs and clichés > on the arts scene. La Jarretière returns to assure us it > was only an > outrageous stunt, no cause for concern. Must have been what > our boy > was talkin' about when he said: > > "It is only fair to warn even the most > kindly disposed of readers > that there are some mighty tiresome passages > here, juvinile and > deliquent too. At the same time, my best hope is > that, pretentious, > goofy and ill-considered as they get now and > then, these stories > will still be of use with all their flaws intact, > as illustrative of > typical problems in entry-level fiction, and > cautionary about some > practices which younger writers might prefer to > avoid. > Slow Learner page 4 From witavorr at hotmail.com Mon Jul 28 18:46:37 2008 From: witavorr at hotmail.com (Amy E. Vorro) Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2008 16:46:37 -0700 Subject: AtD (37) p. 1055, Kafkaesque dream, guilt, paranoia, Where is LAPD? In-Reply-To: <072820082318.13618.488E53C0000DDCC3000035322216538496040A0B0E0A9C0B020E0402070D019D@comcast.net> References: <072820082318.13618.488E53C0000DDCC3000035322216538496040A0B0E0A9C0B020E0402070D019D@comcast.net> Message-ID: I'm new to this this listserv, but would wholly welcome a group read of Vineland. I'm reading it right now, but some external commentary would be freakin' awesome. I vote yay? (Or is it yeh?) Amy > From: robinlandseadel at comcast.net > To: pynchon-l at waste.org > Subject: Re: AtD (37) p. 1055, Kafkaesque dream, guilt, paranoia, Where is LAPD? > Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2008 23:18:24 +0000 > > Laura: > Anyone up for a group read of Vineland next? > > I'd be up for it, someone else recommends "V.", I suggested > CoL 49—all have tight connections to AtD. > > Vineland is about surveillance reversed, turning the cameras on the finks. > > Considering how much space the creation of modern-day spy networks > takes up in AtD [GR, for that matter], Vineland offers up much relevant > material as regards spies, spying and the creation of a permanent police > state in the good old U.S.A. Vineland is also connected to AtD via the > presence of Jesse Traverse and Frenesi"s taste for C.O.P.s. > > If it turns out to be "V.", though, I'll have a chance at connecting with a > book that has left me cold ever since I first had a crack at it twenty years > ago. On the one hand, the characters in "V." are the thinest in any of > TRP's novels—the cardboard cutouts in Against the Day usually have > something funny ha-ha to say, there's a greater amusement potential. > On the other, the time frame of "V."often matches Against the Day, > obviously OBA needed to tie up a lot of loose ends. > > I'll end by noting here, and probably later on, that la Jarretière's > little entrance on p. 1066 is partially in the way of a belated apology for > la Jarretière's scene in "V.", an ugly compendium of slurs and clichés > on the arts scene. La Jarretière returns to assure us it was only an > outrageous stunt, no cause for concern. Must have been what our boy > was talkin' about when he said: > > "It is only fair to warn even the most kindly disposed of readers > that there are some mighty tiresome passages here, juvinile and > deliquent too. At the same time, my best hope is that, pretentious, > goofy and ill-considered as they get now and then, these stories > will still be of use with all their flaws intact, as illustrative of > typical problems in entry-level fiction, and cautionary about some > practices which younger writers might prefer to avoid. > Slow Learner page 4 > _________________________________________________________________ Time for vacation? WIN what you need- enter now! http://www.gowindowslive.com/summergiveaway/?ocid=tag_jlyhm -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nmaranca at gmail.com Mon Jul 28 18:54:45 2008 From: nmaranca at gmail.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Nat=E1lia_Maranca?=) Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2008 20:54:45 -0300 Subject: It's hard to believe Thomas Pynchon wrote a sentence as bad as this one In-Reply-To: <999307.77225.qm@web38407.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <8362828.1217264852014.JavaMail.root@elwamui-royal.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <999307.77225.qm@web38407.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <79e49fac0807281654g5cf48212mabfc51e13df03190@mail.gmail.com> Pynchon's descriptions of sex vary a lot in style depending on the context. Besides, it's not the first time he uses crude sexual violence to make a point, it's all through GR. Here, by showing the wickedness of the two killers, he is actually casting light in psychological problems of Lakeherself, demonstrating how much of a masochist she is, and why she should be despised just as much as Deuce and Sloat. This is crucial for our involvement in the novel, because we are following the story inside the brothers' point of view, who clearly want their sister dead along with Vibe and the hired guns. The scene is poorly written and sick, and it should be this way. It should inspire a negative reaction, but directed at the characters and not the writer. But then, the "reader, she bit him" piece, I don't think I could defend it. I found it amusing, and that's all. Perhaps of no literary value, but it fits in the whole of AtD... On Mon, Jul 28, 2008 at 3:17 PM, Mark Kohut wrote: > LOL > > > --- On Mon, 7/28/08, kelber at mindspring.com wrote: > > > From: kelber at mindspring.com > > Subject: Re: It's hard to believe Thomas Pynchon wrote a sentence as bad > as this one > > To: pynchon-l at waste.org > > Date: Monday, July 28, 2008, 1:07 PM > > The "Reader, she bit him" sequence on p. 666 > > evoked similarly negative reactions. Was it a bad parody > > of Jane Austen or just bad? It's always possible to > > ascribe complex motivations behind every sentence, every > > decision TRP makes, but sometimes a Tatzelwurm is just a > > Tatzelwurm. > > > > Laura > > > > -----Original Message----- > > >From: Dave Monroe > > >Sent: Jul 28, 2008 12:03 PM > > >To: Pynchon-L > > >Subject: It's hard to believe Thomas Pynchon wrote > > a sentence as bad as this one > > > > > >27.7.08 > > >It's hard to believe Thomas Pynchon wrote a > > sentence as bad as this one. > > > > > >"After she had given in to the notion of being > > doubled up on, she > > >found herself going out of the way looking for it, > > usually one in her > > >mouth, the other from behind, sometimes in her ass, so > > she got quickly > > >used to tasting her own fluids mixed with shit." > > > > > >There's more before and after that, mentions of > > being chained to a bed > > >with leather hobbles and an instance of "you dirty > > fuckmouth whore" > > >but that sentence is representative of the section of > > "Against the > > >Day" in question. I've seen it referred to as > > the "Cowboy S+M" > > >section; it's just one page but it's so poorly > > written and oddly out > > >of place that I've been puzzling about it on and > > off since I read it. > > > > > >The rest of the book is excellent. Hugh Kenner wrote a > > little piece > > >about Joyce beginning "Ulysses" in naturalism > > and ending it in parody > > >and in "Against the Day" Pynchon seems so far > > to take the opposite > > >tack, the entire book opening firmly in a parody of > > boy's adventure > > >magazine (Doc Savage-type stuff) but becoming more > > grounded in tone as > > >the demands of reality intrude on the characters. So > > there are the > > >Chums of Chance and their airship The Inconvenience in > > the > > >aforementioned whiz-bang mode, Lew Basnight beginning > > in a Kafkaesque > > >version of Chicago (complete with unspecified sins and > > surreal dive > > >hotels) and proceeding through the American West to > > England and a > > >version of Blavatsky and Yeats's mysticisms, Merle > > Rideout and his > > >daughter Dahlia in an off-kilter version of "Paper > > Moon" and so on, > > >all at the turn of the century, and alternately > > interacting and > > >working at cross-purposes. > > > > > >The S+M scene is part of the Western revenge saga of > > the Traverse > > >family that takes up large parts of the book at a time > > and which > > >actually I frequently find the hardest sections to get > > through, though > > >I'm trying to reserve judgment until I actually > > finish the whole > > >thing. That particular scene makes sense as regards the > > motifs of the > > >book, the journeys of the characters involved, and > > setting up a > > >situation which will apparently be crucial to the > > Traverse storyline > > >but it's the execution of it that bugs me. Maybe > > Pynchon was parodying > > >cheap smut like Tijuana Bibles or Penthouse stories but > > that's a > > >stretch, it doesn't read as parody or homage in any > > way . . . I > > >respect Pynchon's writing ability, so it comes as > > even more a > > >surprise, especially in the middle of a work so > > well-written and > > >elsewise engaging. > > > > > >My only other experience with Pynchon is the first 30 > > or so pages of > > >"Gravity's Rainbow" but I've read > > about him and some miscellanea of > > >his, letters, essays etc. and many of his pet interests > > and issues > > >show up in "Against the Day", some reviewers > > having called it a sort > > >of summation of his life's writing (guy is pretty > > old by now). Ideas > > >about capitalism, the use of anarchy as a way to oppose > > >industrialization and its effect on worker's > > rights, the acquisition > > >of technology for profitable or military means, the > > uses of theories > > >and hypotheses otherwise marginalized by the mainstream > > scientific > > >community and, very interesting to me, the sense of a > > fictive space > > >(that term is used in reference to the Chums of Chance, > > with Lew > > >Basnight it's the Invisible Area, and to the > > scientists it's the is > > >it/isn't it existence of a substance called > > Aether), a space where > > >these characters can exist indefinitely, only half-seen > > by the rest of > > >society, but a space constantly threatened by the > > encroachment of > > >actual "reality", usually represented by the > > needs of industrialists > > >like Scarsdale Vibe or the shadowy Organization that > > sends the Chums > > >on their missions. An early example is the first > > chapter, where the > > >1893 Chicago World's Fair is described as wrapped > > in fiction and > > >wonder, but the moment the Chums leave it, they're > > prey to regular > > >human emotions and pettiness, reflected by a shift in > > their dialogue > > >and the narrative voice. > > > > > >Parallels can also be drawn to the current political > > climate, if > > >that's your thing. Blinded by their own arrogance > > and confidence in > > >their abilities, a scientific expedition brings a > > horrible power to a > > >large metropolis (never named, but clearly New York > > City), initiating > > >one cataclysmic night of flames where people flee giant > > clouds of > > >smoke that rush down the city streets, and clog transit > > systems in a > > >panic to escape. The city is afterward described as > > forgetting the > > >actual event, the nature and significance of the > > attack, only > > >remembering a vague injury to their superiority and > > paying their > > >respects to it by leaving the charred portion of the > > city intact, > > >establishing it as a memorial by erecting a gate with a > > quote from > > >Dante etched on the arch. > > > > > >All in all, an excellent book so far and one I > > don't mind as my > > >introduction to Pynchon, but I'd still like answers > > about the cowboy > > >threesome. > > > > > > > http://phenoptosis.blogspot.com/2008/07/its-hard-to-believe-thomas-pynchon.html > > > > > >"No symbols where none intended." --Samuel > > Beckett > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nmaranca at gmail.com Mon Jul 28 19:14:42 2008 From: nmaranca at gmail.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Nat=E1lia_Maranca?=) Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2008 21:14:42 -0300 Subject: IPW 2008: Some Pictures and more In-Reply-To: References: <48750902.9030902@yahoo.fr> <488CB1D3.2030001@yahoo.fr> Message-ID: <79e49fac0807281714j72f29a3dj62e8d6b2575b94d5@mail.gmail.com> Any idea as to the month? On Sun, Jul 27, 2008 at 3:23 PM, Dave Monroe wrote: > On Sun, Jul 27, 2008 at 12:35 PM, Michel Ryckx wrote: > > > Poland. Lublin. Z. Kolbusewska organising -- no call for papers yet. > > Born Polish, raised Irish. I'll be the brother man in the motherland ... > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From markekohut at yahoo.com Mon Jul 28 19:51:31 2008 From: markekohut at yahoo.com (Mark Kohut) Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2008 17:51:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: AtD (37) p.1056 Lake dreams; icy north; gravity, mass, no lightness of being Message-ID: <788787.89820.qm@web38408.mail.mud.yahoo.com> p 1056 A chapter full of dreams. Lake now has one about a subarctic city where everyone is so fertile and they all "pretend family life". Dream analysis 101: Icy North is a Bad Place in TRP's symbolic world and Lake knows this is where her unhappy life/marriage is. (as some cruel English wit said of Eliot's "The Wasteland": it's about his marriage.). But she dreams of new life--a fecundity she doesn't have, a wish fulfillment dream?---wonderful TRP dream lines, yes?---and a child [her unconceived child?] caught under the ice but ultimately rescued---the word resurrection is used---as she awakes into early sunlight [again], "an announcement of intention"... Lake's dream might be seen as the opposite of Yashmeen's giving birth? Cf. Prentice living out people's fantasies? Only Lake is unhappy and overcompensating.... "wordless, timeless" distraction...."maybe dream within a dream"...........deepest core (of oneself, of the "collective unconscious" [Jung]? ) "of weight slowly to increase beyond endurance".....gravity, unlimited mass?.....weight of the world?......weight of her life? ---feeling weight---the force of gravity---the opposite of grace?----her life a heaviness "almost beyond endurance", a 'mass' that is Bad Shit in TRPs world---the opposite of the lightness of being, of singing and eating bananas. From markekohut at yahoo.com Mon Jul 28 20:28:58 2008 From: markekohut at yahoo.com (Mark Kohut) Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2008 18:28:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: What to read next? Message-ID: <598363.81285.qm@web38401.mail.mud.yahoo.com> > I vote for the consensus.......... > > In fact, in a kind of homage to timelessness, I vote for > maybe reading more than one at a time??? > > many on the the p-list is already doing that, it seems. > > a--and we always have more than one thread going > anyway......... > > We can make some wonderfully contrapuntal, full orchestral > sounds.......... > Talk about Stravinsky!? > > > --- On Mon, 7/28/08, robinlandseadel at comcast.net > wrote: > > > From: robinlandseadel at comcast.net > > > Subject: Re: AtD (37) p. 1055, Kafkaesque dream, > guilt, paranoia, Where is LAPD? > > To: "P-list" > > Date: Monday, July 28, 2008, 7:18 PM > > Laura: > > Anyone up for a group read of Vineland next? > > > > I'd be up for it, someone else recommends > > "V.", I suggested > > CoL 49—all have tight connections to AtD. > > > > Vineland is about surveillance reversed, turning the > > cameras on the finks. > > > > Considering how much space the creation of modern-day > spy > > networks > > takes up in AtD [GR, for that matter], Vineland offers > up > > much relevant > > material as regards spies, spying and the creation of > a > > permanent police > > state in the good old U.S.A. Vineland is also > connected to > > AtD via the > > presence of Jesse Traverse and Frenesi"s taste > for > > C.O.P.s. > > > > If it turns out to be "V.", though, I'll > have > > a chance at connecting with a > > book that has left me cold ever since I first had a > crack > > at it twenty years > > ago. On the one hand, the characters in "V." > are > > the thinest in any of > > TRP's novels—the cardboard cutouts in Against > the Day > > usually have > > something funny ha-ha to say, there's a greater > > amusement potential. > > On the other, the time frame of "V."often > matches > > Against the Day, > > obviously OBA needed to tie up a lot of loose ends. > > > > I'll end by noting here, and probably later on, > that > > la Jarretière's > > little entrance on p. 1066 is partially in the way of > a > > belated apology for > > la Jarretière's scene in "V.", an ugly > > compendium of slurs and clichés > > on the arts scene. La Jarretière returns to assure us > it > > was only an > > outrageous stunt, no cause for concern. Must have been > what > > our boy > > was talkin' about when he said: > > > > "It is only fair to warn even the most > > kindly disposed of readers > > that there are some mighty tiresome passages > > here, juvinile and > > deliquent too. At the same time, my best > hope is > > that, pretentious, > > goofy and ill-considered as they get now and > > then, these stories > > will still be of use with all their flaws > intact, > > as illustrative of > > typical problems in entry-level fiction, and > > cautionary about some > > practices which younger writers might prefer > to > > avoid. > > Slow Learner page 4 From scuffling at gmail.com Mon Jul 28 20:43:23 2008 From: scuffling at gmail.com (Henry) Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2008 21:43:23 -0400 Subject: What to read next? In-Reply-To: <598363.81285.qm@web38401.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <598363.81285.qm@web38401.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <000301c8f11c$7d56d4c0$78047e40$@com> As an agreeable, consensus building contrarian, I'm for V or Vineland, vwhichever has fewer votes. Henry Mu Please contribute to Obama if you can: http://my.barackobama.com/page/outreach/view/main/PListe4Obama Check out my Obama blog, http://my.barackobama.com/page/community/blog/henrymu ; if you like it, how about being my "friend" on the My.BarackObama.com network: http://my.barackobama.com/page/socialnet/register/33qzpcr2sl -----Original Message----- From: Mark Kohut > I vote for the consensus.......... > > In fact, in a kind of homage to timelessness, I vote for > maybe reading more than one at a time??? > > many on the the p-list is already doing that, it seems. > > a--and we always have more than one thread going > anyway......... > > We can make some wonderfully contrapuntal, full orchestral > sounds.......... > Talk about Stravinsky!? > > > --- On Mon, 7/28/08, robinlandseadel at comcast.net > wrote: > > > From: robinlandseadel at comcast.net > > > Subject: Re: AtD (37) p. 1055, Kafkaesque dream, > guilt, paranoia, Where is LAPD? > > To: "P-list" > > Date: Monday, July 28, 2008, 7:18 PM > > Laura: > > Anyone up for a group read of Vineland next? > > > > I'd be up for it, someone else recommends > > "V.", I suggested > > CoL 49—all have tight connections to AtD. > > > > Vineland is about surveillance reversed, turning the > > cameras on the finks. > > > > Considering how much space the creation of modern-day > spy > > networks > > takes up in AtD [GR, for that matter], Vineland offers > up > > much relevant > > material as regards spies, spying and the creation of > a > > permanent police > > state in the good old U.S.A. Vineland is also > connected to > > AtD via the > > presence of Jesse Traverse and Frenesi"s taste > for > > C.O.P.s. > > > > If it turns out to be "V.", though, I'll > have > > a chance at connecting with a > > book that has left me cold ever since I first had a > crack > > at it twenty years > > ago. On the one hand, the characters in "V." > are > > the thinest in any of > > TRP's novels—the cardboard cutouts in Against > the Day > > usually have > > something funny ha-ha to say, there's a greater > > amusement potential. > > On the other, the time frame of "V."often > matches > > Against the Day, > > obviously OBA needed to tie up a lot of loose ends. > > > > I'll end by noting here, and probably later on, > that > > la Jarretière's > > little entrance on p. 1066 is partially in the way of > a > > belated apology for > > la Jarretière's scene in "V.", an ugly > > compendium of slurs and clichés > > on the arts scene. La Jarretière returns to assure us > it > > was only an > > outrageous stunt, no cause for concern. Must have been > what > > our boy > > was talkin' about when he said: > > > > "It is only fair to warn even the most > > kindly disposed of readers > > that there are some mighty tiresome passages > > here, juvinile and > > deliquent too. At the same time, my best > hope is > > that, pretentious, > > goofy and ill-considered as they get now and > > then, these stories > > will still be of use with all their flaws > intact, > > as illustrative of > > typical problems in entry-level fiction, and > > cautionary about some > > practices which younger writers might prefer > to > > avoid. > > Slow Learner page 4 From igrlivingston at gmail.com Mon Jul 28 20:51:08 2008 From: igrlivingston at gmail.com (Ian Livingston) Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2008 18:51:08 -0700 Subject: Fwd: What to read next? In-Reply-To: <95cde1ee0807281850y5cc5bd4ey592c0f6d24d38f9e@mail.gmail.com> References: <598363.81285.qm@web38401.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <95cde1ee0807281850y5cc5bd4ey592c0f6d24d38f9e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <95cde1ee0807281851k520bbeb4wfdde52d7bb6bf395@mail.gmail.com> doh! ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Ian Livingston Date: Mon, Jul 28, 2008 at 6:50 PM Subject: Re: What to read next? To: markekohut at yahoo.com I had thought it might be nice to go back the beginning, to get a group read of V., but as I only just re-read it a few months ago I'd be happy digging into Vineland as it is next on my list after finishing my re-read of GR. Trying to plan a thesis, here. I found some cool stuff in V., might be fun to test it on the group, see if I saw what I saw. On Mon, Jul 28, 2008 at 6:28 PM, Mark Kohut wrote: > > > I vote for the consensus.......... > > > > In fact, in a kind of homage to timelessness, I vote for > > maybe reading more than one at a time??? > > > > many on the the p-list is already doing that, it seems. > > > > a--and we always have more than one thread going > > anyway......... > > > > We can make some wonderfully contrapuntal, full orchestral > > sounds.......... > > Talk about Stravinsky!? > > > > > > --- On Mon, 7/28/08, robinlandseadel at comcast.net > > wrote: > > > > > From: robinlandseadel at comcast.net > > > > > Subject: Re: AtD (37) p. 1055, Kafkaesque dream, > > guilt, paranoia, Where is LAPD? > > > To: "P-list" > > > Date: Monday, July 28, 2008, 7:18 PM > > > Laura: > > > Anyone up for a group read of Vineland next? > > > > > > I'd be up for it, someone else recommends > > > "V.", I suggested > > > CoL 49—all have tight connections to AtD. > > > > > > Vineland is about surveillance reversed, turning the > > > cameras on the finks. > > > > > > Considering how much space the creation of modern-day > > spy > > > networks > > > takes up in AtD [GR, for that matter], Vineland offers > > up > > > much relevant > > > material as regards spies, spying and the creation of > > a > > > permanent police > > > state in the good old U.S.A. Vineland is also > > connected to > > > AtD via the > > > presence of Jesse Traverse and Frenesi"s taste > > for > > > C.O.P.s. > > > > > > If it turns out to be "V.", though, I'll > > have > > > a chance at connecting with a > > > book that has left me cold ever since I first had a > > crack > > > at it twenty years > > > ago. On the one hand, the characters in "V." > > are > > > the thinest in any of > > > TRP's novels—the cardboard cutouts in Against > > the Day > > > usually have > > > something funny ha-ha to say, there's a greater > > > amusement potential. > > > On the other, the time frame of "V."often > > matches > > > Against the Day, > > > obviously OBA needed to tie up a lot of loose ends. > > > > > > I'll end by noting here, and probably later on, > > that > > > la Jarretière's > > > little entrance on p. 1066 is partially in the way of > > a > > > belated apology for > > > la Jarretière's scene in "V.", an ugly > > > compendium of slurs and clichés > > > on the arts scene. La Jarretière returns to assure us > > it > > > was only an > > > outrageous stunt, no cause for concern. Must have been > > what > > > our boy > > > was talkin' about when he said: > > > > > > "It is only fair to warn even the most > > > kindly disposed of readers > > > that there are some mighty tiresome passages > > > here, juvinile and > > > deliquent too. At the same time, my best > > hope is > > > that, pretentious, > > > goofy and ill-considered as they get now and > > > then, these stories > > > will still be of use with all their flaws > > intact, > > > as illustrative of > > > typical problems in entry-level fiction, and > > > cautionary about some > > > practices which younger writers might prefer > > to > > > avoid. > > > Slow Learner page 4 > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nmaranca at gmail.com Mon Jul 28 22:06:23 2008 From: nmaranca at gmail.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Nat=E1lia_Maranca?=) Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2008 00:06:23 -0300 Subject: What to read next? In-Reply-To: <95cde1ee0807281851k520bbeb4wfdde52d7bb6bf395@mail.gmail.com> References: <598363.81285.qm@web38401.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <95cde1ee0807281850y5cc5bd4ey592c0f6d24d38f9e@mail.gmail.com> <95cde1ee0807281851k520bbeb4wfdde52d7bb6bf395@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <79e49fac0807282006vf7b3434x4dbd170487aff027@mail.gmail.com> I'd be happy to contribute more to the next reading, which I couldn't do during this one of AtD as I was a bit unsynchronized. I'm also in favor of V. or Vineland, preferably Vineland. On Mon, Jul 28, 2008 at 10:51 PM, Ian Livingston wrote: > doh! > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: Ian Livingston > Date: Mon, Jul 28, 2008 at 6:50 PM > Subject: Re: What to read next? > To: markekohut at yahoo.com > > > I had thought it might be nice to go back the beginning, to get a group > read of V., but as I only just re-read it a few months ago I'd be happy > digging into Vineland as it is next on my list after finishing my re-read of > GR. Trying to plan a thesis, here. I found some cool stuff in V., might be > fun to test it on the group, see if I saw what I saw. > > > On Mon, Jul 28, 2008 at 6:28 PM, Mark Kohut wrote: > >> >> > I vote for the consensus.......... >> > >> > In fact, in a kind of homage to timelessness, I vote for >> > maybe reading more than one at a time??? >> > >> > many on the the p-list is already doing that, it seems. >> > >> > a--and we always have more than one thread going >> > anyway......... >> > >> > We can make some wonderfully contrapuntal, full orchestral >> > sounds.......... >> > Talk about Stravinsky!? >> > >> > >> > --- On Mon, 7/28/08, robinlandseadel at comcast.net >> > wrote: >> > >> > > From: robinlandseadel at comcast.net >> > >> > > Subject: Re: AtD (37) p. 1055, Kafkaesque dream, >> > guilt, paranoia, Where is LAPD? >> > > To: "P-list" >> > > Date: Monday, July 28, 2008, 7:18 PM >> > > Laura: >> > > Anyone up for a group read of Vineland next? >> > > >> > > I'd be up for it, someone else recommends >> > > "V.", I suggested >> > > CoL 49—all have tight connections to AtD. >> > > >> > > Vineland is about surveillance reversed, turning the >> > > cameras on the finks. >> > > >> > > Considering how much space the creation of modern-day >> > spy >> > > networks >> > > takes up in AtD [GR, for that matter], Vineland offers >> > up >> > > much relevant >> > > material as regards spies, spying and the creation of >> > a >> > > permanent police >> > > state in the good old U.S.A. Vineland is also >> > connected to >> > > AtD via the >> > > presence of Jesse Traverse and Frenesi"s taste >> > for >> > > C.O.P.s. >> > > >> > > If it turns out to be "V.", though, I'll >> > have >> > > a chance at connecting with a >> > > book that has left me cold ever since I first had a >> > crack >> > > at it twenty years >> > > ago. On the one hand, the characters in "V." >> > are >> > > the thinest in any of >> > > TRP's novels—the cardboard cutouts in Against >> > the Day >> > > usually have >> > > something funny ha-ha to say, there's a greater >> > > amusement potential. >> > > On the other, the time frame of "V."often >> > matches >> > > Against the Day, >> > > obviously OBA needed to tie up a lot of loose ends. >> > > >> > > I'll end by noting here, and probably later on, >> > that >> > > la Jarretière's >> > > little entrance on p. 1066 is partially in the way of >> > a >> > > belated apology for >> > > la Jarretière's scene in "V.", an ugly >> > > compendium of slurs and clichés >> > > on the arts scene. La Jarretière returns to assure us >> > it >> > > was only an >> > > outrageous stunt, no cause for concern. Must have been >> > what >> > > our boy >> > > was talkin' about when he said: >> > > >> > > "It is only fair to warn even the most >> > > kindly disposed of readers >> > > that there are some mighty tiresome passages >> > > here, juvinile and >> > > deliquent too. At the same time, my best >> > hope is >> > > that, pretentious, >> > > goofy and ill-considered as they get now and >> > > then, these stories >> > > will still be of use with all their flaws >> > intact, >> > > as illustrative of >> > > typical problems in entry-level fiction, and >> > > cautionary about some >> > > practices which younger writers might prefer >> > to >> > > avoid. >> > > Slow Learner page 4 >> >> >> >> >> > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dpayne1912 at hotmail.com Mon Jul 28 23:31:41 2008 From: dpayne1912 at hotmail.com (David Payne) Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2008 04:31:41 +0000 Subject: What to read next? In-Reply-To: <79e49fac0807282006vf7b3434x4dbd170487aff027@mail.gmail.com> References: <598363.81285.qm@web38401.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <95cde1ee0807281850y5cc5bd4ey592c0f6d24d38f9e@mail.gmail.com> <95cde1ee0807281851k520bbeb4wfdde52d7bb6bf395@mail.gmail.com> <79e49fac0807282006vf7b3434x4dbd170487aff027@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Vineland! _________________________________________________________________ With Windows Live for mobile, your contacts travel with you. http://www.windowslive.com/mobile/overview.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_mobile_072008 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wescac at gmail.com Tue Jul 29 01:03:04 2008 From: wescac at gmail.com (JD) Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2008 02:03:04 -0400 Subject: what to read next that isn't pynchon Message-ID: <39a39c310807282303j23e79eb6ka7282cf95893bccb@mail.gmail.com> Please advise. Handbook of Drawing is still not in English. God damnit. Darkmans was terrible. Terrible. I'm sorry. Vollmann sniffs his own ass so hard I can hear it from here. At least he tries. Still smells like shit. Omega Minor was fun, and worthwhile. Summer in Termuren(sp?) was worthwhile. But old. I subscribe to One Store because I like their format. It's all horrible. One of their contributors had a national endowment of the arts grant and a gugenheim grant and reading her bullshit made me want to stab myself in the eye. Good on her being able to game the system, but dear lord. New authors, please. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wescac at gmail.com Tue Jul 29 00:53:59 2008 From: wescac at gmail.com (JD) Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2008 01:53:59 -0400 Subject: It's hard to believe Thomas Pynchon wrote a sentence as bad as this one In-Reply-To: <79e49fac0807281654g5cf48212mabfc51e13df03190@mail.gmail.com> References: <8362828.1217264852014.JavaMail.root@elwamui-royal.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <999307.77225.qm@web38407.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <79e49fac0807281654g5cf48212mabfc51e13df03190@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <39a39c310807282253s7097335o3e4e750dfd7e8056@mail.gmail.com> "reader, shit bit him" and all surrounding it was bad to a hilarious degree. TP is not without error. But it was bad to a degree most bad writers could never achieve. Sometimes you have to be willing to laugh at yourself, sometimes you have to be willing to let a well-endowed writer tell you to go fuck yourself, sometimes you have to realize no matter how gifted all authors screw up at some point in their career. Heaven forbid Pynchon fuck up a single line in any of his doorstops.... come on. I'm not going to lie and say it isn't fun to try to find terrible sections of any of the man's novels. regarding the double penetrated, flavorful self-exploration of Lake, I think it is not impossible that perhaps the rampant sex "novels" of certain eras of Americana were entirely uninvolved. Let's all toss on a good trench coat or two and peruse some of the bookshelves of any Chinatown you wish to pick, it might be educational. On Mon, Jul 28, 2008 at 7:54 PM, Natália Maranca wrote: > Pynchon's descriptions of sex vary a lot in style depending on the context. > Besides, it's not the first time he uses crude sexual violence to make a > point, it's all through GR. Here, by showing the wickedness of the two > killers, he is actually casting light in psychological problems of Lakeherself, demonstrating how much of a masochist she is, and why she should be > despised just as much as Deuce and Sloat. This is crucial for our > involvement in the novel, because we are following the story inside the > brothers' point of view, who clearly want their sister dead along with Vibe > and the hired guns. The scene is poorly written and sick, and it should be > this way. It should inspire a negative reaction, but directed at the > characters and not the writer. But then, the "reader, she bit him" piece, I > don't think I could defend it. I found it amusing, and that's all. Perhaps > of no literary value, but it fits in the whole of AtD... > > > On Mon, Jul 28, 2008 at 3:17 PM, Mark Kohut wrote: > >> LOL >> >> >> --- On Mon, 7/28/08, kelber at mindspring.com wrote: >> >> > From: kelber at mindspring.com >> > Subject: Re: It's hard to believe Thomas Pynchon wrote a sentence as bad >> as this one >> > To: pynchon-l at waste.org >> > Date: Monday, July 28, 2008, 1:07 PM >> > The "Reader, she bit him" sequence on p. 666 >> > evoked similarly negative reactions. Was it a bad parody >> > of Jane Austen or just bad? It's always possible to >> > ascribe complex motivations behind every sentence, every >> > decision TRP makes, but sometimes a Tatzelwurm is just a >> > Tatzelwurm. >> > >> > Laura >> > >> > -----Original Message----- >> > >From: Dave Monroe >> > >Sent: Jul 28, 2008 12:03 PM >> > >To: Pynchon-L >> > >Subject: It's hard to believe Thomas Pynchon wrote >> > a sentence as bad as this one >> > > >> > >27.7.08 >> > >It's hard to believe Thomas Pynchon wrote a >> > sentence as bad as this one. >> > > >> > >"After she had given in to the notion of being >> > doubled up on, she >> > >found herself going out of the way looking for it, >> > usually one in her >> > >mouth, the other from behind, sometimes in her ass, so >> > she got quickly >> > >used to tasting her own fluids mixed with shit." >> > > >> > >There's more before and after that, mentions of >> > being chained to a bed >> > >with leather hobbles and an instance of "you dirty >> > fuckmouth whore" >> > >but that sentence is representative of the section of >> > "Against the >> > >Day" in question. I've seen it referred to as >> > the "Cowboy S+M" >> > >section; it's just one page but it's so poorly >> > written and oddly out >> > >of place that I've been puzzling about it on and >> > off since I read it. >> > > >> > >The rest of the book is excellent. Hugh Kenner wrote a >> > little piece >> > >about Joyce beginning "Ulysses" in naturalism >> > and ending it in parody >> > >and in "Against the Day" Pynchon seems so far >> > to take the opposite >> > >tack, the entire book opening firmly in a parody of >> > boy's adventure >> > >magazine (Doc Savage-type stuff) but becoming more >> > grounded in tone as >> > >the demands of reality intrude on the characters. So >> > there are the >> > >Chums of Chance and their airship The Inconvenience in >> > the >> > >aforementioned whiz-bang mode, Lew Basnight beginning >> > in a Kafkaesque >> > >version of Chicago (complete with unspecified sins and >> > surreal dive >> > >hotels) and proceeding through the American West to >> > England and a >> > >version of Blavatsky and Yeats's mysticisms, Merle >> > Rideout and his >> > >daughter Dahlia in an off-kilter version of "Paper >> > Moon" and so on, >> > >all at the turn of the century, and alternately >> > interacting and >> > >working at cross-purposes. >> > > >> > >The S+M scene is part of the Western revenge saga of >> > the Traverse >> > >family that takes up large parts of the book at a time >> > and which >> > >actually I frequently find the hardest sections to get >> > through, though >> > >I'm trying to reserve judgment until I actually >> > finish the whole >> > >thing. That particular scene makes sense as regards the >> > motifs of the >> > >book, the journeys of the characters involved, and >> > setting up a >> > >situation which will apparently be crucial to the >> > Traverse storyline >> > >but it's the execution of it that bugs me. Maybe >> > Pynchon was parodying >> > >cheap smut like Tijuana Bibles or Penthouse stories but >> > that's a >> > >stretch, it doesn't read as parody or homage in any >> > way . . . I >> > >respect Pynchon's writing ability, so it comes as >> > even more a >> > >surprise, especially in the middle of a work so >> > well-written and >> > >elsewise engaging. >> > > >> > >My only other experience with Pynchon is the first 30 >> > or so pages of >> > >"Gravity's Rainbow" but I've read >> > about him and some miscellanea of >> > >his, letters, essays etc. and many of his pet interests >> > and issues >> > >show up in "Against the Day", some reviewers >> > having called it a sort >> > >of summation of his life's writing (guy is pretty >> > old by now). Ideas >> > >about capitalism, the use of anarchy as a way to oppose >> > >industrialization and its effect on worker's >> > rights, the acquisition >> > >of technology for profitable or military means, the >> > uses of theories >> > >and hypotheses otherwise marginalized by the mainstream >> > scientific >> > >community and, very interesting to me, the sense of a >> > fictive space >> > >(that term is used in reference to the Chums of Chance, >> > with Lew >> > >Basnight it's the Invisible Area, and to the >> > scientists it's the is >> > >it/isn't it existence of a substance called >> > Aether), a space where >> > >these characters can exist indefinitely, only half-seen >> > by the rest of >> > >society, but a space constantly threatened by the >> > encroachment of >> > >actual "reality", usually represented by the >> > needs of industrialists >> > >like Scarsdale Vibe or the shadowy Organization that >> > sends the Chums >> > >on their missions. An early example is the first >> > chapter, where the >> > >1893 Chicago World's Fair is described as wrapped >> > in fiction and >> > >wonder, but the moment the Chums leave it, they're >> > prey to regular >> > >human emotions and pettiness, reflected by a shift in >> > their dialogue >> > >and the narrative voice. >> > > >> > >Parallels can also be drawn to the current political >> > climate, if >> > >that's your thing. Blinded by their own arrogance >> > and confidence in >> > >their abilities, a scientific expedition brings a >> > horrible power to a >> > >large metropolis (never named, but clearly New York >> > City), initiating >> > >one cataclysmic night of flames where people flee giant >> > clouds of >> > >smoke that rush down the city streets, and clog transit >> > systems in a >> > >panic to escape. The city is afterward described as >> > forgetting the >> > >actual event, the nature and significance of the >> > attack, only >> > >remembering a vague injury to their superiority and >> > paying their >> > >respects to it by leaving the charred portion of the >> > city intact, >> > >establishing it as a memorial by erecting a gate with a >> > quote from >> > >Dante etched on the arch. >> > > >> > >All in all, an excellent book so far and one I >> > don't mind as my >> > >introduction to Pynchon, but I'd still like answers >> > about the cowboy >> > >threesome. >> > > >> > > >> http://phenoptosis.blogspot.com/2008/07/its-hard-to-believe-thomas-pynchon.html >> > > >> > >"No symbols where none intended." --Samuel >> > Beckett >> >> >> >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From braam.vanbruggen at bigpond.com Tue Jul 29 02:28:15 2008 From: braam.vanbruggen at bigpond.com ( braam van bruggen) Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2008 17:28:15 +1000 Subject: what to read next that isn't pynchon References: <39a39c310807282303j23e79eb6ka7282cf95893bccb@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <002101c8f14c$aaea27e0$52608a90@your3962729a48> Steve Erickson. no-one ever talks about him. Braam ----- Original Message ----- From: JD To: pynchon -l Sent: Tuesday, July 29, 2008 4:03 PM Subject: what to read next that isn't pynchon Please advise. Handbook of Drawing is still not in English. God damnit. Darkmans was terrible. Terrible. I'm sorry. Vollmann sniffs his own ass so hard I can hear it from here. At least he tries. Still smells like shit. Omega Minor was fun, and worthwhile. Summer in Termuren(sp?) was worthwhile. But old. I subscribe to One Store because I like their format. It's all horrible. One of their contributors had a national endowment of the arts grant and a gugenheim grant and reading her bullshit made me want to stab myself in the eye. Good on her being able to game the system, but dear lord. New authors, please. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From markekohut at yahoo.com Tue Jul 29 05:24:47 2008 From: markekohut at yahoo.com (Mark Kohut) Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2008 03:24:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: AtD (37) p. 1057 Penance, fidelity, rats in trees, slaughterhouse again Message-ID: <437950.60634.qm@web38401.mail.mud.yahoo.com> p 1057 "to resist all penance at the hands of others"........what a line to describe mutual commitment and fidelity between two!???...........picks up 'penance' motif earlier........... expresses that a 'relationship' with another means responsibility and inevitable hurts requiring penance? That seems to be part of the meaning, anyway, here and from earlier uses. Pynchon, plunderer of all notions, uses this and 'karmic balance' elsewhere, etc. to capture a basic notion? Basic moral truth? "the dark exceptional fate"...???...reserved for Lake and Deuce alone, now lost. Do rats really nest in palm trees? Or is that 'just' another metaphor? Seems the answer is yes and, of course, it is also a metaphor, I'm sure: from Answers.com: Roof rats prefer to nest in trees and occasionally in burrows and vegetation. "down frozen slaughterhouse alleyways"---that slaughterhouse motif again. A Hebrew Headdress is a caul, according to a Bible Dictionary online with the Book of Isaiah as the source....(Only other Google citation is to this section in ATD!) From scuffling at gmail.com Tue Jul 29 06:17:19 2008 From: scuffling at gmail.com (Henry) Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2008 07:17:19 -0400 Subject: what to read next that isn't pynchon In-Reply-To: <002101c8f14c$aaea27e0$52608a90@your3962729a48> References: <39a39c310807282303j23e79eb6ka7282cf95893bccb@mail.gmail.com> <002101c8f14c$aaea27e0$52608a90@your3962729a48> Message-ID: <005301c8f16c$aaa80840$fff818c0$@com> Big Book: Isn't there a comparatively recent translation of War and Peace that's supposed to be top drawer? Anyone read it yet? HENRY MU ----- Original Message ----- From: owner-pynchon-l at waste.org [mailto:owner-pynchon-l at waste.org] On Behalf Of braam van bruggen Sent: Tuesday, July 29, 2008 3:28 AM To: JD Cc: pynchon-l Subject: Re: what to read next that isn't pynchon Steve Erickson. no-one ever talks about him.   Braam ----- Original Message ----- From: JD To: pynchon -l Sent: Tuesday, July 29, 2008 4:03 PM Subject: what to read next that isn't pynchon Please advise.  Handbook of Drawing is still not in English.  God damnit. Darkmans was terrible. Terrible. I'm sorry. Vollmann sniffs his own ass so hard I can hear it from here.  At least he tries.  Still smells like shit. Omega Minor was fun, and worthwhile. Summer in Termuren(sp?) was worthwhile.  But old. I subscribe to One Store because I like their format.  It's all horrible.  One of their contributors had a national endowment of the arts grant and a gugenheim grant and reading her bullshit made me want to stab myself in the eye.  Good on her being able to game the system, but dear lord. New authors, please. From robinlandseadel at comcast.net Tue Jul 29 06:19:29 2008 From: robinlandseadel at comcast.net (robinlandseadel at comcast.net) Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2008 11:19:29 +0000 Subject: It's hard to believe Thomas Pynchon wrote a sentence as bad as this one Message-ID: <072920081119.1182.488EFCC10000CDDE0000049E2214756402040A0B0E0A9C0B020E0402070D019D@comcast.net> The scene on page 666 is quite beastly, and that is the very point. Google "The Great Beast" and this is the first thing to come up. http://www.mystae.com/restricted/streams/gnosis/beast.html Google "666" and the first listing leads to a wiki listing that name-checks Aleistair Crowley. Moufette, 'Pert & Reef serve to illustrate that "beastly" nature is really the nature of man�Crowley's point. The quality of writing in Against the Day varies more than in any other novel by Pynchon. The scene of Reef's unsuccessful sexual liaison with Mouffette has a kind of through-and-through groan-inducing badness, the likes of which we have seen many times before in Pynchon's writing, bad puns being a speciality of the house. After all, for DeMille young fur-henchmen can't be rowing. P.S. for MK and the rest: I really haven't read as much of Crowley as you might think. It's strange, because I know a great many people [more than I would expect] who have read Weird Uncle Al's stuff through-and-through. But all I've really read has been "The Book of Thoth" and "The Book of Lies", only dipping my toes in his other works. I've read a great deal more about Crowley than by Crowley himself. -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: JD Subject: Re: It's hard to believe Thomas Pynchon wrote a sentence as bad as this one Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2008 06:24:04 +0000 Size: 12177 URL: From robinlandseadel at comcast.net Tue Jul 29 06:45:12 2008 From: robinlandseadel at comcast.net (robinlandseadel at comcast.net) Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2008 11:45:12 +0000 Subject: what to read next that isn't pynchon Message-ID: <072920081145.10350.488F02C8000945290000286E2214756402040A0B0E0A9C0B020E0402070D019D@comcast.net> "Henry" : Big Book: Isn't there a comparatively recent translation of War and Peace that's supposed to be top drawer? Anyone read it yet? Anthony Briggs for Viking Press: http://www.amazon.com/War-Peace-Leo-Tolstoy/dp/067003469X I bought my copy two years back, but between Proust & Pynchon, my eyeballs are in search of shorter, more digestable works. Not to mention this mounting pile of metaphysical texts constantly demanding my attention. Evola on Heremetics is proving to be quite the education: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julius_Evola In addition to W & P, there are two early 20th century masterworks that seem to apply�Hesse's "The Glass Bead Game" and Thomas Mann's "Magic Mountain." But I suspect the "open sesame" will be: http://tinyurl.com/5vsju9 http://www.hermeticgoldendawn.org/Documents/Bios/regardie.htm From jkvannort at yahoo.com Tue Jul 29 07:06:23 2008 From: jkvannort at yahoo.com (J K Van Nort) Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2008 05:06:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: What to read next? In-Reply-To: <79e49fac0807282006vf7b3434x4dbd170487aff027@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <14039.43799.qm@web30605.mail.mud.yahoo.com> I'm up for Vineland Reef knot - unstable knot also known as the square knot From robinlandseadel at comcast.net Tue Jul 29 08:20:14 2008 From: robinlandseadel at comcast.net (robinlandseadel at comcast.net) Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2008 13:20:14 +0000 Subject: What to read next? Message-ID: <072920081320.2027.488F190E00039417000007EB2216538496040A0B0E0A9C0B020E0402070D019D@comcast.net> Hey, I'm always up for Froot-Loops and Stellar Jays all bulked-up on a dog-food diet�this is the one book most easily visualized as a long, long Simpsons episode: ". . . ."I'm Blood," and Vato immediatly piped up, "I'm Vato!" Together, "We just some couple of mu-thuh-fuck-kers/Out�" whereupon a disagrement arose, Vato going on with the straight Disney lyric, "Out to have some fun," while Blood, continuing to depart from it, preferred "out to kick some ass," turning immediately to Vato. "What's 'is 'have some fun' shit?". . . ." Vineland, page 181 I really don't know how many times I've read this little gem, but probably more times for pleasure than any of Pynchon's other books. Vineland's got my favorite cartoons qua cartoons in all of Pynchon's books [though Al Mar-Fuad wins on points.] And Little-Miss-Free-And-Easy's jaunt through Amerikkka's various ass-kicking departments winds up be-coming attractions for Buddhist themes in Against the Day. Not to mention the Girl's taste for a certain kind of domination, a variety of domination we've become quite comfortable with, thanks to the Tube. Good Book. -------------- Original message ---------------------- From: J K Van Nort > I'm up for Vineland > > Reef knot - unstable knot also known as the square knot From against.the.dave at gmail.com Tue Jul 29 08:31:04 2008 From: against.the.dave at gmail.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2008 08:31:04 -0500 Subject: What to read next? In-Reply-To: <598363.81285.qm@web38401.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <598363.81285.qm@web38401.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Jul 28, 2008 at 8:28 PM, Mark Kohut wrote: > >> I vote for the consensus.......... This now explains the last eight years or so of American politics ... ... but I've been settin' a spell on this question myself, and one thing I'd like to see happen here--to the point where maybe I'll even go to the effort to contribute--is to take some time ("some time") for a general discussion/assessment/whatever of AtD, perhaps revisit reviews, scholarly paers which have popped up in the meantime, not to mention our own expectations for the damn thing, perhaps to consider the novel's realationship to the Pynchonian ouevre as a whole, perhaps even to contemporary lit'rachure (of which I personally know nothing save Pynchon, but ...) .., This reminds me of something Michel kindly sent me, one moment ... From hraudask at sun3.oulu.fi Tue Jul 29 08:33:49 2008 From: hraudask at sun3.oulu.fi (Heikki Raudaskoski) Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2008 16:33:49 +0300 (EEST) Subject: IPW 2008: Some Pictures and more In-Reply-To: <79e49fac0807281714j72f29a3dj62e8d6b2575b94d5@mail.gmail.com> References: <48750902.9030902@yahoo.fr> <488CB1D3.2030001@yahoo.fr> <79e49fac0807281714j72f29a3dj62e8d6b2575b94d5@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: A (great) IPW 2008 participant wrote me that it will be in 2010. The usual two-year interval will thus be maintained. He didn't, however, mention the month. Maybe June, as B4? Zosia is a "Magician of Lublin" if there ever was one. Heikki On Mon, 28 Jul 2008, Natália Maranca wrote: > Any idea as to the month? > > On Sun, Jul 27, 2008 at 3:23 PM, Dave Monroe wrote: > > > On Sun, Jul 27, 2008 at 12:35 PM, Michel Ryckx wrote: > > > > > Poland. Lublin. Z. Kolbusewska organising -- no call for papers yet. > > > > Born Polish, raised Irish. I'll be the brother man in the motherland ... > > > From robinlandseadel at comcast.net Tue Jul 29 08:42:29 2008 From: robinlandseadel at comcast.net (robinlandseadel at comcast.net) Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2008 13:42:29 +0000 Subject: What to read next? Message-ID: <072920081342.6989.488F1E450004D5F900001B4D2216538496040A0B0E0A9C0B020E0402070D019D@comcast.net> Dave: . . . .perhaps to consider the novel's realationship to the Pynchonian ouevre as a whole, perhaps even to contemporary lit'rachure (of which I personally know nothing save Pynchon, but ...) .., . . . .perhaps to point out those nodes in Against the Day where OBA winks at his on-line cult and on-line cults in general, how much of the Geekology of the modern personal computer is integrated into the weave and warp of Against the Day. Take Quarterninions�Please ! ! ! Seriously, now�"Webb Traverse?" [rimshot, blackout.] From against.the.dave at gmail.com Tue Jul 29 09:05:17 2008 From: against.the.dave at gmail.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2008 09:05:17 -0500 Subject: Fly Towards Grace Message-ID: Slawomir Magala Fly Towards Grace (Organizing and Novel Writing) http://www.essex.ac.uk/afm/emc/novelconference/magala_paper.pdf From braam.vanbruggen at bigpond.com Tue Jul 29 02:24:50 2008 From: braam.vanbruggen at bigpond.com ( braam van bruggen) Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2008 17:24:50 +1000 Subject: What to read next? References: <598363.81285.qm@web38401.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <000701c8f14c$310d1a90$52608a90@your3962729a48> I'd really like it if we did V - I haven't read it for 20 years and it's still the most difficult (for me) and there's something hauntingly beautiful about that mysterious valley, not so much a place in physical reality as somewhere inside us all....? On the other hand, Vineland would be great too... ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark Kohut" To: "pynchon -l" Cc: ; Sent: Tuesday, July 29, 2008 11:28 AM Subject: What to read next? > >> I vote for the consensus.......... >> >> In fact, in a kind of homage to timelessness, I vote for >> maybe reading more than one at a time??? >> >> many on the the p-list is already doing that, it seems. >> >> a--and we always have more than one thread going >> anyway......... >> >> We can make some wonderfully contrapuntal, full orchestral >> sounds.......... >> Talk about Stravinsky!? >> >> >> --- On Mon, 7/28/08, robinlandseadel at comcast.net >> wrote: >> >> > From: robinlandseadel at comcast.net >> >> > Subject: Re: AtD (37) p. 1055, Kafkaesque dream, >> guilt, paranoia, Where is LAPD? >> > To: "P-list" >> > Date: Monday, July 28, 2008, 7:18 PM >> > Laura: >> > Anyone up for a group read of Vineland next? >> > >> > I'd be up for it, someone else recommends >> > "V.", I suggested >> > CoL 49—all have tight connections to AtD. >> > >> > Vineland is about surveillance reversed, turning the >> > cameras on the finks. >> > >> > Considering how much space the creation of modern-day >> spy >> > networks >> > takes up in AtD [GR, for that matter], Vineland offers >> up >> > much relevant >> > material as regards spies, spying and the creation of >> a >> > permanent police >> > state in the good old U.S.A. Vineland is also >> connected to >> > AtD via the >> > presence of Jesse Traverse and Frenesi"s taste >> for >> > C.O.P.s. >> > >> > If it turns out to be "V.", though, I'll >> have >> > a chance at connecting with a >> > book that has left me cold ever since I first had a >> crack >> > at it twenty years >> > ago. On the one hand, the characters in "V." >> are >> > the thinest in any of >> > TRP's novels—the cardboard cutouts in Against >> the Day >> > usually have >> > something funny ha-ha to say, there's a greater >> > amusement potential. >> > On the other, the time frame of "V."often >> matches >> > Against the Day, >> > obviously OBA needed to tie up a lot of loose ends. >> > >> > I'll end by noting here, and probably later on, >> that >> > la Jarretière's >> > little entrance on p. 1066 is partially in the way of >> a >> > belated apology for >> > la Jarretière's scene in "V.", an ugly >> > compendium of slurs and clichés >> > on the arts scene. La Jarretière returns to assure us >> it >> > was only an >> > outrageous stunt, no cause for concern. Must have been >> what >> > our boy >> > was talkin' about when he said: >> > >> > "It is only fair to warn even the most >> > kindly disposed of readers >> > that there are some mighty tiresome passages >> > here, juvinile and >> > deliquent too. At the same time, my best >> hope is >> > that, pretentious, >> > goofy and ill-considered as they get now and >> > then, these stories >> > will still be of use with all their flaws >> intact, >> > as illustrative of >> > typical problems in entry-level fiction, and >> > cautionary about some >> > practices which younger writers might prefer >> to >> > avoid. >> > Slow Learner page 4 > > > > From richard.romeo at gmail.com Tue Jul 29 09:44:37 2008 From: richard.romeo at gmail.com (rich) Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2008 10:44:37 -0400 Subject: Fly Towards Grace In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <830c13f40807290744x3e60db28g15c1172d21957845@mail.gmail.com> what's with that presumed photo of Pynchon in Central Park? On Tue, Jul 29, 2008 at 10:05 AM, Dave Monroe wrote: > Slawomir Magala > > Fly Towards Grace > (Organizing and Novel Writing) > > http://www.essex.ac.uk/afm/emc/novelconference/magala_paper.pdf > From kelber at mindspring.com Tue Jul 29 09:59:07 2008 From: kelber at mindspring.com (kelber at mindspring.com) Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2008 10:59:07 -0400 (GMT-04:00) Subject: What to read next? Message-ID: <4570005.1217343548212.JavaMail.root@elwamui-royal.atl.sa.earthlink.net> I'd like to see this happen too. Does anyone have any links to online articles about ATD? Maybe our next group read could start later in the Fall (October-ish?). I'm going to have limited computer access from 8/6-8/20, but after that, I'd be willing to make up an agenda framework for a Vineland (or V?) group read (someone will have to come up with a snappy acronym). Laura -----Original Message----- >From: Dave Monroe > >... but I've been settin' a spell on this question myself, and one >thing I'd like to see happen here--to the point where maybe I'll even >go to the effort to contribute--is to take some time ("some time") for >a general discussion/assessment/whatever of AtD, perhaps revisit >reviews, scholarly paers which have popped up in the meantime, not to >mention our own expectations for the damn thing, perhaps to consider >the novel's realationship to the Pynchonian ouevre as a whole, perhaps >even to contemporary lit'rachure (of which I personally know nothing >save Pynchon, but ...) .., > >This reminds me of something Michel kindly sent me, one moment ... From markekohut at yahoo.com Tue Jul 29 10:06:24 2008 From: markekohut at yahoo.com (Mark Kohut) Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2008 08:06:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Fly Towards Grace In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <972106.71082.qm@web38407.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Is that photo of Pynchon REAL?.....where did it come from? --- On Tue, 7/29/08, Dave Monroe wrote: > From: Dave Monroe > Subject: Fly Towards Grace > To: "pynchon -l" > Date: Tuesday, July 29, 2008, 10:05 AM > Slawomir Magala > > Fly Towards Grace > (Organizing and Novel Writing) > > http://www.essex.ac.uk/afm/emc/novelconference/magala_paper.pdf From against.the.dave at gmail.com Tue Jul 29 10:12:04 2008 From: against.the.dave at gmail.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2008 10:12:04 -0500 Subject: Fly Towards Grace In-Reply-To: <830c13f40807290744x3e60db28g15c1172d21957845@mail.gmail.com> References: <830c13f40807290744x3e60db28g15c1172d21957845@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Jul 29, 2008 at 9:44 AM, rich wrote: > what's with that presumed photo of Pynchon in Central Park? There are a few English-as-a-second-language glitches in that paper, I'm, uh, presuming that might well be one of them ... From glenn_scheper at earthlink.net Tue Jul 29 10:13:34 2008 From: glenn_scheper at earthlink.net (Glenn Scheper) Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2008 08:13:34 -0700 (GMT-07:00) Subject: What to read next that isn't pynchon? Message-ID: <1730759.1217344415011.JavaMail.root@elwamui-rustique.atl.sa.earthlink.net> I finished P.K. Dick's VALIS, quite confused. Maybe we-all could figure it out more deeply. Throughout VALIS is this jarring interjection: "The empire never ended." Rediscovering what P.K. Dick knew would be timely. Consider this and that about our "American empire": "peace and security" = "peace and safety" "What is at stake is more than one small country, it is a big idea, a new world order, where diverse nations are drawn together in common cause to achieve the universal aspirations of mankind: peace and security, freedom, and the rule of law. Such is a world worthy of our struggle, and worthy of our children's future. (end George Bush Sr. quote) -- http://www.theamericannightmare.org/16_pax_americana_A-D.html 16_Pax Americana 1Thes: 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. 5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. I sucked up this site, which includes Peter Goodgame's book text, and it greatly illuminates the luciferian / chthonic contrast: http://www.redmoonrising.com Now, Robin's Evola-on-Heremetics URL had a keystone fact... While characterizing race as something hereditary and biological, Evola also claimed that race was not simply and linearly defined by mere skin color and the various other hereditary factors. In other words, in addition to predominantly "Aryan" or, more broadly, "Northern" biology, the initial necessary precondition for further racial differentiation, one must prove oneself spiritually "Aryan". The fact that in India the term Arya was the synonym of dwija, "twice-born" or "regenerated" supports this point. To him higher race implied something akin to supra-human, spiritual caste. Evola wrote, "the supernatural element was the foundation of the idea of a traditional patriciate and of legitimate royalty." -- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julius_Evola Julius Evola - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Twice-born is the same as Jesus' born-again and has as true referent a metanoia/metamorphosis arising from autofellatio or autocunnilingus. Failure of the Luciferians to know the true referent makes them pick another, less approriate, idea for this unsatisfied semiotic sign. A religion without referents cannot be disabused. "The empire never ended." Yours truly, Glenn Scheper http://home.earthlink.net/~glenn_scheper/ glenn_scheper + at + earthlink.net Copyleft(!) Forward freely. From isread at btinternet.com Tue Jul 29 10:19:03 2008 From: isread at btinternet.com (Paul Nightingale) Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2008 16:19:03 +0100 Subject: Atdtda28: The city below was not the same, 792-794 Message-ID: <000901c8f18e$6fbd5bf0$4f3813d0$@com> The Chums return, briefly, in 55.12 when Prance is "taken aloft and on to an uncertain fate" (787), ie post-Event. Here, the new chapter begins with a flashback to the Event, seen from the pov of the Inconvenience "arriv[ing] over the scene of devastation shortly after the Bol'shaia Igra" (793). The Russian crew consider Chinese or German involvement (780); the Chums think of the Trespassers (793). As in Ch55 there is the question of representation, from the opening paragraph's "no one appeared to live here ..." etc (792) to "the pale blue aftermath" etc (793). Looking for evidence of an explosion, the Russians describe absence: "No sign of fire there ..." etc (780). For the Chums, however, there is presence out of absence: "... the city was not the same one they had arrived at the night before ..." etc (793). The Event has been productive: "... the desert was renounced". Down the page Professor Vanderjuice also attempts to describe, for the benefit of the Chums, what has happened on the other side of the world. Ch55 ended with Fleetwood and Kit discussing Shambhala; here, the Chums believe ("they all knew") they have found it. On 780 Padzhitnoff et al discuss "weapons implications"; and on 784 Kit recalls Ostend and the Q-weapon. Here, we consider the possibility that the Chums have "met the same fate as Shambhala, their protection lost ..." etc (793). On 787: "Prance thought he'd begun to detect a presence overhead ..." etc. Conflict between Lindsay and Darby is interrupted by "Professor Vanderjuice, transmitting from Tierra del Fuego": evidence that the Event has registered globally, given that, on 780, Padzhitnoff only reports what "Okhrana believe". Here, the Professor offers a summary of "terrible rumours about" Tesla (794); this story in turn is denounced by Darby as "capitalistic propaganda" originating with Tesla's "enemies in New York". So, "at this antipodal remove", explanation is just as much a parochial affair as for the Russians. From against.the.dave at gmail.com Tue Jul 29 10:43:37 2008 From: against.the.dave at gmail.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2008 10:43:37 -0500 Subject: What to read next? In-Reply-To: <072920081342.6989.488F1E450004D5F900001B4D2216538496040A0B0E0A9C0B020E0402070D019D@comcast.net> References: <072920081342.6989.488F1E450004D5F900001B4D2216538496040A0B0E0A9C0B020E0402070D019D@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Tue, Jul 29, 2008 at 8:42 AM, wrote: > Seriously, now—"Webb Traverse?" Indeed ... From against.the.dave at gmail.com Tue Jul 29 10:51:19 2008 From: against.the.dave at gmail.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2008 10:51:19 -0500 Subject: Fly Towards Grace In-Reply-To: <972106.71082.qm@web38407.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <972106.71082.qm@web38407.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Jul 29, 2008 at 10:06 AM, Mark Kohut wrote: > > Is that photo of Pynchon REAL?.....where did it come from? In inverse order: from that paper; yes, it's real, but I doubt it's of Pynchon ... From igrlivingston at gmail.com Tue Jul 29 12:30:45 2008 From: igrlivingston at gmail.com (Ian Livingston) Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2008 10:30:45 -0700 Subject: It's hard to believe Thomas Pynchon wrote a sentence as bad as this one In-Reply-To: <39a39c310807282253s7097335o3e4e750dfd7e8056@mail.gmail.com> References: <8362828.1217264852014.JavaMail.root@elwamui-royal.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <999307.77225.qm@web38407.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <79e49fac0807281654g5cf48212mabfc51e13df03190@mail.gmail.com> <39a39c310807282253s7097335o3e4e750dfd7e8056@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <95cde1ee0807291030l2f9c469fm7e14a54305d21dce@mail.gmail.com> "God is not only in the unspotted body of Christ and continually present in the consecrated Host but -- and this the novel and significant thing -- he is also hidden in the 'cheap,' 'despised,' common-or garden substance, even in the 'uncleanness of this world, in filth.' He is to found only through the art, indeed he is its true object and is capable of progressive transformation.... This accrescent soul was a second soul that grew through the mineral, vegetable, and animal kingdoms up to man, pervading the whole of nature and to it the natural forms were attached like appendages. This strange idea... is so much in keeping with the phenomenology of the collective unconscious that one is justified in calling it a projection of this...." CG Jung, *Mysterium Coniuntionis,* 280. I am not yet willing to go where JD goes, as I think there is purpose in everything our boy allows to reach the presses. I think that's why it takes him ten years to write a book. That I don't get it does not mean the author doesn't. On Mon, Jul 28, 2008 at 10:53 PM, JD wrote: > "reader, shit bit him" and all surrounding it was bad to a hilarious > degree. TP is not without error. But it was bad to a degree most bad > writers could never achieve. Sometimes you have to be willing to laugh at > yourself, sometimes you have to be willing to let a well-endowed writer tell > you to go fuck yourself, sometimes you have to realize no matter how gifted > all authors screw up at some point in their career. Heaven forbid Pynchon > fuck up a single line in any of his doorstops.... come on. I'm not going > to lie and say it isn't fun to try to find terrible sections of any of the > man's novels. > > regarding the double penetrated, flavorful self-exploration of Lake, I > think it is not impossible that perhaps the rampant sex "novels" of certain > eras of Americana were entirely uninvolved. Let's all toss on a good trench > coat or two and peruse some of the bookshelves of any Chinatown you wish to > pick, it might be educational. > > > On Mon, Jul 28, 2008 at 7:54 PM, Natália Maranca wrote: > >> Pynchon's descriptions of sex vary a lot in style depending on the >> context. Besides, it's not the first time he uses crude sexual violence to >> make a point, it's all through GR. Here, by showing the wickedness of the >> two killers, he is actually casting light in psychological problems of >> Lake herself, demonstrating how much of a masochist she is, and why she >> should be despised just as much as Deuce and Sloat. This is crucial for our >> involvement in the novel, because we are following the story inside the >> brothers' point of view, who clearly want their sister dead along with Vibe >> and the hired guns. The scene is poorly written and sick, and it should be >> this way. It should inspire a negative reaction, but directed at the >> characters and not the writer. But then, the "reader, she bit him" piece, I >> don't think I could defend it. I found it amusing, and that's all. Perhaps >> of no literary value, but it fits in the whole of AtD... >> >> >> On Mon, Jul 28, 2008 at 3:17 PM, Mark Kohut wrote: >> >>> LOL >>> >>> >>> --- On Mon, 7/28/08, kelber at mindspring.com >>> wrote: >>> >>> > From: kelber at mindspring.com >>> > Subject: Re: It's hard to believe Thomas Pynchon wrote a sentence as >>> bad as this one >>> > To: pynchon-l at waste.org >>> > Date: Monday, July 28, 2008, 1:07 PM >>> > The "Reader, she bit him" sequence on p. 666 >>> > evoked similarly negative reactions. Was it a bad parody >>> > of Jane Austen or just bad? It's always possible to >>> > ascribe complex motivations behind every sentence, every >>> > decision TRP makes, but sometimes a Tatzelwurm is just a >>> > Tatzelwurm. >>> > >>> > Laura >>> > >>> > -----Original Message----- >>> > >From: Dave Monroe >>> > >Sent: Jul 28, 2008 12:03 PM >>> > >To: Pynchon-L >>> > >Subject: It's hard to believe Thomas Pynchon wrote >>> > a sentence as bad as this one >>> > > >>> > >27.7.08 >>> > >It's hard to believe Thomas Pynchon wrote a >>> > sentence as bad as this one. >>> > > >>> > >"After she had given in to the notion of being >>> > doubled up on, she >>> > >found herself going out of the way looking for it, >>> > usually one in her >>> > >mouth, the other from behind, sometimes in her ass, so >>> > she got quickly >>> > >used to tasting her own fluids mixed with shit." >>> > > >>> > >There's more before and after that, mentions of >>> > being chained to a bed >>> > >with leather hobbles and an instance of "you dirty >>> > fuckmouth whore" >>> > >but that sentence is representative of the section of >>> > "Against the >>> > >Day" in question. I've seen it referred to as >>> > the "Cowboy S+M" >>> > >section; it's just one page but it's so poorly >>> > written and oddly out >>> > >of place that I've been puzzling about it on and >>> > off since I read it. >>> > > >>> > >The rest of the book is excellent. Hugh Kenner wrote a >>> > little piece >>> > >about Joyce beginning "Ulysses" in naturalism >>> > and ending it in parody >>> > >and in "Against the Day" Pynchon seems so far >>> > to take the opposite >>> > >tack, the entire book opening firmly in a parody of >>> > boy's adventure >>> > >magazine (Doc Savage-type stuff) but becoming more >>> > grounded in tone as >>> > >the demands of reality intrude on the characters. So >>> > there are the >>> > >Chums of Chance and their airship The Inconvenience in >>> > the >>> > >aforementioned whiz-bang mode, Lew Basnight beginning >>> > in a Kafkaesque >>> > >version of Chicago (complete with unspecified sins and >>> > surreal dive >>> > >hotels) and proceeding through the American West to >>> > England and a >>> > >version of Blavatsky and Yeats's mysticisms, Merle >>> > Rideout and his >>> > >daughter Dahlia in an off-kilter version of "Paper >>> > Moon" and so on, >>> > >all at the turn of the century, and alternately >>> > interacting and >>> > >working at cross-purposes. >>> > > >>> > >The S+M scene is part of the Western revenge saga of >>> > the Traverse >>> > >family that takes up large parts of the book at a time >>> > and which >>> > >actually I frequently find the hardest sections to get >>> > through, though >>> > >I'm trying to reserve judgment until I actually >>> > finish the whole >>> > >thing. That particular scene makes sense as regards the >>> > motifs of the >>> > >book, the journeys of the characters involved, and >>> > setting up a >>> > >situation which will apparently be crucial to the >>> > Traverse storyline >>> > >but it's the execution of it that bugs me. Maybe >>> > Pynchon was parodying >>> > >cheap smut like Tijuana Bibles or Penthouse stories but >>> > that's a >>> > >stretch, it doesn't read as parody or homage in any >>> > way . . . I >>> > >respect Pynchon's writing ability, so it comes as >>> > even more a >>> > >surprise, especially in the middle of a work so >>> > well-written and >>> > >elsewise engaging. >>> > > >>> > >My only other experience with Pynchon is the first 30 >>> > or so pages of >>> > >"Gravity's Rainbow" but I've read >>> > about him and some miscellanea of >>> > >his, letters, essays etc. and many of his pet interests >>> > and issues >>> > >show up in "Against the Day", some reviewers >>> > having called it a sort >>> > >of summation of his life's writing (guy is pretty >>> > old by now). Ideas >>> > >about capitalism, the use of anarchy as a way to oppose >>> > >industrialization and its effect on worker's >>> > rights, the acquisition >>> > >of technology for profitable or military means, the >>> > uses of theories >>> > >and hypotheses otherwise marginalized by the mainstream >>> > scientific >>> > >community and, very interesting to me, the sense of a >>> > fictive space >>> > >(that term is used in reference to the Chums of Chance, >>> > with Lew >>> > >Basnight it's the Invisible Area, and to the >>> > scientists it's the is >>> > >it/isn't it existence of a substance called >>> > Aether), a space where >>> > >these characters can exist indefinitely, only half-seen >>> > by the rest of >>> > >society, but a space constantly threatened by the >>> > encroachment of >>> > >actual "reality", usually represented by the >>> > needs of industrialists >>> > >like Scarsdale Vibe or the shadowy Organization that >>> > sends the Chums >>> > >on their missions. An early example is the first >>> > chapter, where the >>> > >1893 Chicago World's Fair is described as wrapped >>> > in fiction and >>> > >wonder, but the moment the Chums leave it, they're >>> > prey to regular >>> > >human emotions and pettiness, reflected by a shift in >>> > their dialogue >>> > >and the narrative voice. >>> > > >>> > >Parallels can also be drawn to the current political >>> > climate, if >>> > >that's your thing. Blinded by their own arrogance >>> > and confidence in >>> > >their abilities, a scientific expedition brings a >>> > horrible power to a >>> > >large metropolis (never named, but clearly New York >>> > City), initiating >>> > >one cataclysmic night of flames where people flee giant >>> > clouds of >>> > >smoke that rush down the city streets, and clog transit >>> > systems in a >>> > >panic to escape. The city is afterward described as >>> > forgetting the >>> > >actual event, the nature and significance of the >>> > attack, only >>> > >remembering a vague injury to their superiority and >>> > paying their >>> > >respects to it by leaving the charred portion of the >>> > city intact, >>> > >establishing it as a memorial by erecting a gate with a >>> > quote from >>> > >Dante etched on the arch. >>> > > >>> > >All in all, an excellent book so far and one I >>> > don't mind as my >>> > >introduction to Pynchon, but I'd still like answers >>> > about the cowboy >>> > >threesome. >>> > > >>> > > >>> http://phenoptosis.blogspot.com/2008/07/its-hard-to-believe-thomas-pynchon.html >>> > > >>> > >"No symbols where none intended." --Samuel >>> > Beckett >>> >>> >>> >>> >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mryc2903 at yahoo.fr Tue Jul 29 13:04:58 2008 From: mryc2903 at yahoo.fr (Michel Ryckx) Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2008 20:04:58 +0200 Subject: What to read next? In-Reply-To: References: <598363.81285.qm@web38401.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <488F5BCA.8060709@yahoo.fr> OK - still have to write something about IPW2008. But: one of the more interesting questions popping up in several lectures (discussed over during day, afterwards in bars, restaurants, cafes) was how to read that strange phrase Fly towards grace, compared to the lines just above it. Worth a short discussion, methinks. Puzzled me, at least. Dave Monroe schreef: > On Mon, Jul 28, 2008 at 8:28 PM, Mark Kohut wrote: > >>> I vote for the consensus.......... >>> > > This now explains the last eight years or so of American politics ... > > ... but I've been settin' a spell on this question myself, and one > thing I'd like to see happen here--to the point where maybe I'll even > go to the effort to contribute--is to take some time ("some time") for > a general discussion/assessment/whatever of AtD, perhaps revisit > reviews, scholarly paers which have popped up in the meantime, not to > mention our own expectations for the damn thing, perhaps to consider > the novel's realationship to the Pynchonian ouevre as a whole, perhaps > even to contemporary lit'rachure (of which I personally know nothing > save Pynchon, but ...) .., > > This reminds me of something Michel kindly sent me, one moment ... > > > ___________________________________________________________________________ Yahoo! Mail r�invente le mail ! D�couvrez le nouveau Yahoo! Mail et son interface r�volutionnaire. http://fr.mail.yahoo.com From mryc2903 at yahoo.fr Tue Jul 29 13:46:16 2008 From: mryc2903 at yahoo.fr (Michel Ryckx) Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2008 20:46:16 +0200 Subject: Contre-Jour, 4 sept 2008 Message-ID: <488F6578.6080703@yahoo.fr> French translation of Atd is considered in the French press to be one of the few highlights of the Fall 2008 literary season. Compliments already all over the place. Claro, translator, wanted to have it translated as Face a Jour -- which would have been a nice wor(l)d play. However, Pynchon insisted on Contre-Jour, as Christophe Claro told on (in French): http://towardgrace.blogspot.com/2008/05/contre-jour.html Michel. ___________________________________________________________________________ Yahoo! Mail réinvente le mail ! Découvrez le nouveau Yahoo! Mail et son interface révolutionnaire. http://fr.mail.yahoo.com From markekohut at yahoo.com Tue Jul 29 14:00:32 2008 From: markekohut at yahoo.com (Mark Kohut) Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2008 12:00:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: What to read next? In-Reply-To: <488F5BCA.8060709@yahoo.fr> Message-ID: <314647.40628.qm@web38404.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Hey,we are almost there.........my penultimate hosting ends this week, then Robin will write toward grace musically. I'm sure we all have ideas.....KEY to overarching meaning (or meanings) or one of them anyway........................ --- On Tue, 7/29/08, Michel Ryckx wrote: > From: Michel Ryckx > Subject: Re: What to read next? > To: "Dave Monroe" > Cc: markekohut at yahoo.com, "pynchon -l" , kelber at mindspring.com, robinlandseadel at comcast.net > Date: Tuesday, July 29, 2008, 2:04 PM > OK - still have to write something about IPW2008. But: one > of the more > interesting questions popping up in several lectures > (discussed over > during day, afterwards in bars, restaurants, cafes) was how > to read that > strange phrase Fly towards grace, compared to the lines > just above it. > > Worth a short discussion, methinks. Puzzled me, at least. > > > Dave Monroe schreef: > > On Mon, Jul 28, 2008 at 8:28 PM, Mark Kohut > wrote: > > > >>> I vote for the consensus.......... > >>> > > > > This now explains the last eight years or so of > American politics ... > > > > ... but I've been settin' a spell on this > question myself, and one > > thing I'd like to see happen here--to the point > where maybe I'll even > > go to the effort to contribute--is to take some time > ("some time") for > > a general discussion/assessment/whatever of AtD, > perhaps revisit > > reviews, scholarly paers which have popped up in the > meantime, not to > > mention our own expectations for the damn thing, > perhaps to consider > > the novel's realationship to the Pynchonian ouevre > as a whole, perhaps > > even to contemporary lit'rachure (of which I > personally know nothing > > save Pynchon, but ...) .., > > > > This reminds me of something Michel kindly sent me, > one moment ... > > > > > > > > > > > > > ___________________________________________________________________________ > > Yahoo! Mail réinvente le mail ! Découvrez le nouveau > Yahoo! Mail et son interface révolutionnaire. > http://fr.mail.yahoo.com From markekohut at yahoo.com Tue Jul 29 14:26:11 2008 From: markekohut at yahoo.com (Mark Kohut) Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2008 12:26:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Or Wait, wait, don't tell me (yet) In-Reply-To: <314647.40628.qm@web38404.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <11959.70613.qm@web38402.mail.mud.yahoo.com> > Hey,we are almost there.........my penultimate hosting ends > this week, then > Robin will write toward grace musically. > > I'm sure we all have ideas.....KEY to overarching > meaning (or meanings) or one of them > anyway........................ > > > --- On Tue, 7/29/08, Michel Ryckx > wrote: > > > From: Michel Ryckx > > Subject: Re: What to read next? > > To: "Dave Monroe" > > > Cc: markekohut at yahoo.com, "pynchon -l" > , kelber at mindspring.com, > robinlandseadel at comcast.net > > Date: Tuesday, July 29, 2008, 2:04 PM > > OK - still have to write something about IPW2008. > But: one > > of the more > > interesting questions popping up in several lectures > > (discussed over > > during day, afterwards in bars, restaurants, cafes) > was how > > to read that > > strange phrase Fly towards grace, compared to the > lines > > just above it. > > > > Worth a short discussion, methinks. Puzzled me, at > least. > > > > > > Dave Monroe schreef: > > > On Mon, Jul 28, 2008 at 8:28 PM, Mark Kohut > > wrote: > > > > > >>> I vote for the consensus.......... > > >>> > > > > > > This now explains the last eight years or so of > > American politics ... > > > > > > ... but I've been settin' a spell on this > > question myself, and one > > > thing I'd like to see happen here--to the > point > > where maybe I'll even > > > go to the effort to contribute--is to take some > time > > ("some time") for > > > a general discussion/assessment/whatever of AtD, > > perhaps revisit > > > reviews, scholarly paers which have popped up in > the > > meantime, not to > > > mention our own expectations for the damn thing, > > perhaps to consider > > > the novel's realationship to the Pynchonian > ouevre > > as a whole, perhaps > > > even to contemporary lit'rachure (of which I > > personally know nothing > > > save Pynchon, but ...) .., > > > > > > This reminds me of something Michel kindly sent > me, > > one moment ... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ___________________________________________________________________________ > > > > Yahoo! Mail réinvente le mail ! Découvrez le nouveau > > Yahoo! Mail et son interface révolutionnaire. > > http://fr.mail.yahoo.com From markekohut at yahoo.com Tue Jul 29 15:50:05 2008 From: markekohut at yahoo.com (Mark Kohut) Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2008 13:50:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: AtD (37) p.1057 Discussion alert! Major meaning section, ?? thinks Host Message-ID: <222027.22351.qm@web38404.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Lew Basnight, detective, a book-length thread of meanings in AtD has a revelation........ What does it mean? Who are all these people Lew is interacting with at Carefree Court(!); a crowd even he, old L.A. hand, finds hard to "read"? Just a Hollywood crowd? or as broad a crossection of humanity as America was becoming--lotsa immmigrants in Hollywood---working daily in the 'new America' of 'mediated reality', not hard labor? The flush, energetic, wide-open [much anti-Puritanism, say some historians, flapper and booze 1920s? Can we see the whole crooked timber of humanity'--Kant--at this gathering? ; "the whole stock and joint company" --[Ishmael in Moby Dick]--living working in the daylit fiction that is America? Lew "seeing the great point and in the 'same instant' "recognizing the ongoing crime that had been his own life"....."Self-clarity" .........."a mortal sin"........???? WTF? Okay, pretty important revelation to understand Lew and more of AtD, yes? Why is such self-clarity a mortal sin? [Am I reading that right?]...."mortal sin" is a concept from the Western Christian tradition mostly. Shows Lew's religion in his upbringing [he is Presbyterian]. A mortal sin is one that totally cuts one off from God, goes the tradition. How could this 'self-clarity' totally cut him off from his God?....A revelation that his whole life had been 'an ongoing crime"...not acts he committed but his whole life. ?? Trying to catch this ragtag assembly of humanity is the ongoing crime? This some W.A.S.T.E.-like motley group of human beings, 'displaying scars and tattoos, etc." all 'having survived some calamity" ?? Or is Lew 'unreliable' in his reflections here? So, once Lew recognized that it was a 'crime' to chase the preterites, as it were, then he is no longer on the side of the Elect? No longer a believer in the Church's/Society's way of judging, so his 'mortal sin' is to not believe.? (THAT cuts one off from one's Christian God while one is in that state, fer sure)..... It is this that got him unambiguously dynamited into his new life. ??? Comments sought, please. I have other thoughts which I will spare for now in order to open the discussion against my words above.... From grladams at teleport.com Tue Jul 29 16:00:54 2008 From: grladams at teleport.com (grladams at teleport.com) Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2008 17:00:54 -0400 Subject: what to read next that isn't pynchon Message-ID: <380-2200872292105439@M2W025.mail2web.com> Thomas Mann's "Magic Mountain" is in a new English translation, (not new-new but still new) that's supposed to be much better to read. I'd be up for that. I've always wanted to read the Odyssey but wondered if anyone on this list had a favorite English edition? The Odyssey / Homer ; translated by Edward McCrorie, with an introduction and notes by Richard P. Martin; Johns Hopkins 2004 Odyssey / Homer ; translated by Lombardo, Stanley, 1943- ; introduction by Sheila Murnaghan. The Odyssey / Homer ; translated by Robert Fitzgerald 1910-; introduction by D.S. Carne-Ross. The Odyssey / Homer ; translated by Robert Fagles ; introduction and notes by Bernard Knox. Note: "This [pbk.] edition contains minor revisions of the text"--P. 496. The odyssey / translated by Hammond, Martin, 1944- ; with an introduction by Jasper Griffin. The odyssey of Homer / translated by George Herbert Palmer 1842-1933.. and many others I'm sure Jill Original Message: ----------------- From: robinlandseadel at comcast.net Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2008 11:45:12 +0000 To: pynchon-l at waste.org (P-list) Subject: RE: what to read next that isn't pynchon "Henry" : Big Book: Isn't there a comparatively recent translation of War and Peace that's supposed to be top drawer? Anyone read it yet? Anthony Briggs for Viking Press: http://www.amazon.com/War-Peace-Leo-Tolstoy/dp/067003469X I bought my copy two years back, but between Proust & Pynchon, my eyeballs are in search of shorter, more digestable works. Not to mention this mounting pile of metaphysical texts constantly demanding my attention. Evola on Heremetics is proving to be quite the education: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julius_Evola In addition to W & P, there are two early 20th century masterworks that seem to apply—Hesse's "The Glass Bead Game" and Thomas Mann's "Magic Mountain." But I suspect the "open sesame" will be: http://tinyurl.com/5vsju9 http://www.hermeticgoldendawn.org/Documents/Bios/regardie.htm -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://link.mail2web.com/mail2web From robinlandseadel at comcast.net Tue Jul 29 16:47:40 2008 From: robinlandseadel at comcast.net (robinlandseadel at comcast.net) Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2008 21:47:40 +0000 Subject: AtD (37) p.1057 Discussion alert! Major meaning section, ?? thinks Host Message-ID: <072920082147.16527.488F8FFC0007751B0000408F2216527966040A0B0E0A9C0B020E0402070D019D@comcast.net> MK: Trying to catch this ragtag assembly of humanity is the ongoing crime? This some W.A.S.T.E.-like motley group of human beings, 'displaying scars and tattoos, etc." all 'having survived some calamity" ?? Or is Lew 'unreliable' in his reflections here? So, once Lew recognized that it was a 'crime' to chase the preterites, as it were, then he is no longer on the side of the Elect? No longer a believer in the Church's/Society's way of judging, so his 'mortal sin' is to not believe.?(THAT cuts one off from one's Christian God while one is in that state, fer sure)..... It is this that got him unambiguously dynamited into his new life. ??? Comments sought, please. "It's too late," he said. "For me?" "For me." Before she could ask what he meant, he'd hung up. She had no more coins. . . . . . . .Suppose, God, there really was a Tristero then and that she had come on it by accident. If San Narciso and the estate were really no different from any other town, any other estate, then by that continuity she might have found The Tristero anywhere in her Republic, through any of a hundred lightly-concealed entranceways, a hundred alienations, if only she'd looked. She stopped a minute between the steel rails, raising her head as if to sniff the air. Becoming conscious of the hard, strung presence she stood on knowing as if maps had been flashed for her on the sky how these tracks ran on into others, others, knowing they laced, deepened, authenticated the great night around her. If only she'd looked. She remembered now old Pullman cars, left where the money'd run out or the customers vanished, amid green farm flatnesses where clothes hung, smoke lazed out of jointed pipes. Were the squatters there in touch with others, through Tristero; were they helping carry forward that 300 years of the house's disinheritance? Surely they'd forgotten by now what it was the Tristero were to have inherited; as perhaps Oedipa one day might have. What was left to inherit? That America coded in Inverarity's testament, whose was that? She thought of other, immobilized freight cars, where the kids sat on the floor planking and sang back, happy as fat, whatever came over the mother's pocket radio; of other squatters who stretched canvas for lean-tos behind smiling billboards along all the highways, or slept in junkyards in the stripped shells of wrecked Plymouths, or even, daring, spent the night up some pole in a lineman's tent like caterpillars, swung among a web of telephone wires, living in the very copper rigging and secular miracle of communication, untroubled by the dumb voltages flickering their miles, the night long, in the thousands of unheard messages. She remembered drifters she had listened to, Americans speaking their language carefully, scholarly, as if they were in exile from somewhere else invisible yet congruent with the cheered land she lived in; and walkers along the roads at night, zooming in and out of your headlights without looking up, too far from any town to have a real destination. And the voices before and after the dead man's that had phoned at random during the darkest, slowest hours, searching ceaseless among the dial's ten million possibilities for that magical Other who would reveal herself out of the roar of relays, monotone litanies of insult, filth, fantasy, love whose brute repetition must someday call into being the trigger for the unnamable act, the recognition, the Word. How many shared Tristero's secret, as well as its exile? What would the probate judge have to say about spreading some kind of a legacy among them all, all those nameless, maybe as a. first installment? Oboy. He'd be on her ass in a microsecond, revoke her letters testamentary, they'd call her names, proclaim her through all Orange County as a redistributionist and pinko, slip the old man from Warpe, Wistfull, Kubitschek and McMingus in as administrator de bonis non and so much baby for code, constellations, shadow-legatees. Who knew? Perhaps she'd be hounded someday as far as joining Tristero itself, if it existed, in its twilight, its aloofness, its waiting. The waiting above all; if not for another set of possibilities to replace those that had conditioned the land to accept any San Narciso among its most tender flesh without a reflex or a cry, then at least, at the very least, waiting for a symmetry of choices to break down, to go skew. She had heard all about excluded middles; they were bad shit, to be avoided; and how had it ever happened here, with the chances once so good for diversity? For it was now like walking among matrices of a great digital computer, the zeroes and ones twinned above, hanging like balanced mobiles right and left, ahead, thick, maybe endless. Behind the hieroglyphic streets there would either be a transcendent meaning, or only the earth. In the songs Miles, Dean, Serge and Leonard sang was either some fraction of the truth's numinous beauty (as Mucho now believed) or only a power spectrum. Tremaine the Swastika Salesman's reprieve from holocaust was either an injustice, or the absence of a wind; the bones of the GI's at the bottom of Lake In-verarity were there either for a reason that mattered to the world, or for skin divers and cigarette smokers. Ones and zeroes. So did the couples arrange themselves. At Vesperhaven House either an accommodation reached, in some kind of dignity, with the Angel of Death, or only death and the daily, tedious preparations for it. Another mode of meaning behind the obvious, or none. Either Oedipa in the orbiting ecstasy of a true paranoia, or a real Tristero. For there either was some Tristero beyond the appearance of the legacy America, or there was just America and if there was just America then it seemed the only way she could continue, and manage to be at all relevant to it, was as an alien, unfurrowed, assumed full circle into some paranoia. CoL49, pages146/151 From malignd at aol.com Tue Jul 29 16:52:20 2008 From: malignd at aol.com (malignd at aol.com) Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2008 17:52:20 -0400 Subject: what to read next that isn't pynchon In-Reply-To: <39a39c310807282303j23e79eb6ka7282cf95893bccb@mail.gmail.com> References: <39a39c310807282303j23e79eb6ka7282cf95893bccb@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <8CABFDC82C60345-CE0-87C@webmail-da08.sysops.aol.com> Try Gaddis.  A Frolic of His Own or JR. Or Terry Southern.  Flash and Filigree, for instance. Or Tom McGuane, if you've never read him. Or Dog of the South by Charles Portis. Or about anything by Thomas Berger.  Who Is Teddy Villanova? Or Jorge Amado, Home is the Sailor. Or the Beckett trilogy.  Or Murphy. Or Flann O'Brien. I also just re-read Him With His Foot In His Mouth, a novella and stories by Saul Bellow.  It's pretty amazing.  His paragraphs go effortlessly from high to low, from slang to erudition, from wiseass to high serious.  Really great stuff.  Or virtually any of his novels.  Try Humboldt's Gift. I could do this all day ... -----Original Message----- From: JD To: pynchon -l Sent: Tue, 29 Jul 2008 2:03 am Subject: what to read next that isn't pynchon Please advise.  Handbook of Drawing is still not in English.  God damnit. Darkmans was terrible. Terrible. I'm sorry. Vollmann sniffs his own ass so hard I can hear it from here.  At least he tries.  Still smells like shit. Omega Minor was fun, and worthwhile. Summer in Termuren(sp?) was worthwhile.  But old. I subscribe to One Store because I like their format.  It's all horrible.  One of their contributors had a national endowment of the arts grant and a gugenheim grant and reading her bullshit made me want to stab myself in the eye.  Good on her being able to game the system, but dear lord. New authors, please. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From malignd at aol.com Tue Jul 29 16:56:07 2008 From: malignd at aol.com (malignd at aol.com) Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2008 17:56:07 -0400 Subject: what to read next that isn't pynchon In-Reply-To: <072920081145.10350.488F02C8000945290000286E2214756402040A0B0E0A9C0B020E0402070D019D@comcast.net> References: <072920081145.10350.488F02C8000945290000286E2214756402040A0B0E0A9C0B020E0402070D019D@comcast.net> Message-ID: <8CABFDD09F3CE1A-CE0-8B1@webmail-da08.sysops.aol.com> My wife read it.  Liked it a lot.  She read Constance Garnett's Anna Karenina and thought the new W&P an improvement.  Worth noting, as Garnett has been the standard for both books for nearly a century. "Henry" : Big Book: Isn't there a comparatively recent translation of War and Peace that's supposed to be top drawer? Anyone read it yet? -----Original Message----- From: robinlandseadel at comcast.net To: P-list Sent: Tue, 29 Jul 2008 7:45 am Subject: RE: what to read next that isn't pynchon "Henry" : Big Book: Isn't there a comparatively recent translation of War and Peace that's supposed to be top drawer? Anyone read it yet? Anthony Briggs for Viking Press: http://www.amazon.com/War-Peace-Leo-Tolstoy/dp/067003469X I bought my copy two years back, but between Proust & Pynchon, my eyeballs are in search of shorter, more digestable works. Not to mention this mounting pile of metaphysical texts constantly demanding my attention. Evola on Heremetics is proving to be quite the education: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julius_Evola In addition to W & P, there are two early 20th century masterworks that seem to apply—Hesse's "The Glass Bead Game" and Thomas Mann's "Magic Mountain." But I suspect the "open sesame" will be: http://tinyurl.com/5vsju9 http://www.h ermeticgoldendawn.org/Documents/Bios/regardie.htm -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From robinlandseadel at comcast.net Tue Jul 29 17:11:47 2008 From: robinlandseadel at comcast.net (robinlandseadel at comcast.net) Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2008 22:11:47 +0000 Subject: AtD (37) p.1057 Discussion alert! Major meaning section, ?? thinks Host Message-ID: <072920082211.23222.488F95A2000F3F3C00005AB62216538496040A0B0E0A9C0B020E0402070D019D@comcast.net> Something to note about that passage in "The Crying of Lot 49": I probably never noticed this before�having read "The Automobile Graveyard" for the first time this year�this scene in 49� . . . .or slept in junkyards in the stripped shells of wrecked Plymouths, or even, daring, spent the night up some pole in a lineman's tent like caterpillars, swung among a web of telephone wires, living in the very copper rigging and secular miracle of communication. . . . Sounds much like: The play takes place in front of an automobile graveyard. In the background, the carcasses of automobiles piled on top of each other. The automobles are all old, dirty and rusty. Those in the first row have burlap curtains instead of glass in the windows. Fernando Arrabal: "The Automobile Graveyard", page 9 The characters in "The Automobile Graveyard" for the most part live in these junked cars, some are even lower�begging to get into one of these wrecks. This is the side of the tracks Oedipa never really was aware of before. Lew moving into acceptance of his preterite status might be the curtain-raiser for the actual final resolution of the novel's traditional "plot" with the final downfall of Deuce. And then into the unknown future and the novel's coda. From robinlandseadel at comcast.net Tue Jul 29 17:34:06 2008 From: robinlandseadel at comcast.net (robinlandseadel at comcast.net) Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2008 22:34:06 +0000 Subject: AtD (37) p.1057 Discussion alert! Major meaning section, ?? thinks Host Message-ID: <072920082234.25212.488F9ADE0006B6460000627C2216538496040A0B0E0A9C0B020E0402070D019D@comcast.net> More on Arrabal: Jesus Arrabal's "Anarchist Miracle" would be some sort of horrible fright, as far as I can tell: In an all-night Mexican greasy spoon off 24th, she found a piece of her past, in the form of one Jesus Arrabal, who was sitting in a corner under the TV set, idly stirring his bowl of opaque soup with the foot of a chicken. "Hey," he greeted Oedipa, "you were the lady in Mazatlan." He beckoned her to sit. "You remember everything," Oedipa said, "Jesus; even tourists. How is your CIA?" Standing not for the agency you think, but for a clandestine Mexican outfit known as the Conjuration de los Insurgentes Anarquis-tas, traceable back to the time of the Flores Mag6n brothers and later briefly allied with Zapata. "You see. In exile," waving his arm around at the place. He was part-owner here with a yucateco who still believed in the Revolution. Their Revolution. "And you. Are you still with that gringo who spent too much money on you? The oligarchist, the miracle?" "He died." "Ah, pobrecito." They had met Jesus Arrabal on the beach, where he had previously announced an anti-government rally. Nobody had showed up. So he fell to talking to Inverarity, the enemy he must, to be true to his faith, learn. Pierce, because of his neutral manners when in the presence of ill-will, had nothing to tell Arrabal; he played the rich, obnoxious gringo so perfectly that Oedipa had seen gooseflesh come up along the anarchist's forearms, due to no Pacific sea-breeze. Soon as Pierce went off to sport in the surf, Arrabal asked her if he was real, or a spy, or making fun of him. Oedipa didn't understand. "Yon know what a miracle is. Not what Bakunin said. But another world's intrusion into this one. Most of the time we coexist peacefully, but when we do touch there's cataclysm. Like the church we hate, anarchists also believe in another world. Where revolutions break out spontaneous and leaderless, and the soul's talent for consensus allows the masses to work together without effort, automatic as the body itself. And yet, sena, if any of it should ever really happen that perfectly, I would also have to cry miracle. An anarchist miracle. Like your friend. He is too exactly and without flaw the thing we fight. In Mexico the privilegiado is always, to a finite percentage, redeemed one of the people. Unmiraculous. But your friend, unless he's joking, is as terrifying to me as a Virgin appearing to an Indian." CoL49,96/97 Arrabal, the playwright, as a founder of the "Panic" movement worked to create "Anarchist Miracles" and in Guillermo del Toro there are Anarchist miracles as well, continuing the work of Arrabal and Jorodowsky. Anarchism being a major thread in Against the Day it pays to note Arrabal's presence in Pynchon's writing. From richardryannyc at yahoo.com Tue Jul 29 18:10:01 2008 From: richardryannyc at yahoo.com (Richard Ryan) Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2008 16:10:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: what to read next that isn't pynchon In-Reply-To: <8CABFDD09F3CE1A-CE0-8B1@webmail-da08.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <860376.34237.qm@web50704.mail.re2.yahoo.com> This is an appealing recommendation, but then I see dissenters on the Briggs translation complaining about the soldiers' voices being rendered in Cockney, the French phrases being translated without comment, the German and French characters being given accents, a character with a speech impediment being made to sound like Elmer Fudd, etc.  That certainly gives one pause. I liked the Maude translation of Anna K. well enough.  It seemed elegant and readable - the professor I read it with 20 years ago, who was fluent in Russian, said he thought it was the best of Tolstoy translations in English. Never read "W&P" and probably should get down to it if I'm ever going to..... --- On Tue, 7/29/08, malignd at aol.com wrote: From: malignd at aol.com Subject: Re: what to read next that isn't pynchon To: pynchon-l at waste.org Date: Tuesday, July 29, 2008, 5:56 PM My wife read it. Liked it a lot. She read Constance Garnett's Anna Karenina and thought the new W&P an improvement. Worth noting, as Garnett has been the standard for both books for nearly a century. "Henry" : Big Book: Isn't there a comparatively recent translation of War and Peace that's supposed to be top drawer? Anyone read it yet? -----Original Message----- From: robinlandseadel at comcast.net To: P-list Sent: Tue, 29 Jul 2008 7:45 am Subject: RE: what to read next that isn't pynchon "Henry" : Big Book: Isn't there a comparatively recent translation of War and Peace that's supposed to be top drawer? Anyone read it yet? Anthony Briggs for Viking Press: http://www.amazon.com/War-Peace-Leo-Tolstoy/dp/067003469X I bought my copy two years back, but between Proust & Pynchon, my eyeballs are in search of shor ter, more digestable works. Not to mention this mounting pile of metaphysical texts constantly demanding my attention. Evola on Heremetics is proving to be quite the education: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julius_Evola In addition to W & P, there are two early 20th century masterworks that seem to apply—Hesse's "The Glass Bead Game" and Thomas Mann's "Magic Mountain." But I suspect the "open sesame" will be: http://tinyurl.com/5vsju9 http://www.hermeticgoldendawn.org/Documents/Bios/regardie.htm The Famous, the Infamous, the Lame - in your browser. Get the TMZ Toolbar Now! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From malignd at aol.com Tue Jul 29 21:23:23 2008 From: malignd at aol.com (malignd at aol.com) Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2008 22:23:23 -0400 Subject: what to read next that isn't pynchon In-Reply-To: <635104.67644.qm@web38402.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <8CAC0025FD95A39-208-2F74@webmail-de13.sysops.aol.com> It's because of the way people read, and the way they think they should think about literature, in part.  A great and very funny writer like Berger, who I think couldn't write a book that wouldn't be fun and provoking to read, doesn't traffic in big ideas or social commentary, except from so far in left field that people miss it.  Plus his books are, usually, small and entertaining, as though that were a fault (see Muriel Spark).  But sentence by sentence he's wonderful--nasty, smart, funny, and masterful.  And the two Little Big Man books are truly worthy of anyone's consideration as major books, and Arthur Rex, his telling of the Arthur legends, is the one I would recommend to anyone who asked.  But I would argue as vehemently for all the rest.  He's a wonderful, maybe great, writer, living too far under the radar. In short, he falls between the cracks.  But a great career with nary a bad novel. Why you think Berger does not seem to have the readership, cult or larger that some of the others of his time do?...TRP, of course, Gaddis, Gass, Barth? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nmaranca at gmail.com Tue Jul 29 23:17:38 2008 From: nmaranca at gmail.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Nat=E1lia_Maranca?=) Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2008 01:17:38 -0300 Subject: AtD reviews Message-ID: <79e49fac0807292117y59005f58ud6835408d50d4734@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, Jul 29, 2008 at 11:59 AM, wrote: > Does anyone have any links to online articles about ATD? > Guide of most reviews Powell's Books list of reviews Costumers from Goodreads List from Metacritic Editorial reviews from Amazon Costumer reviews from Amazon Costumer reviews from Amazon.co.uk List from Reviewsofbooks.com My own list (includes newspapers, magazines and blogs): About.com The Adirondack Review The Age The American Prospect The Austin Chronicle Beatbots The Bedside Crow Bookforum Bookpage Boston Globe The Boston Phoenix Cecil Vortex's Deathmarch Chicago Reader The Christian Science Monitor Citypaper Conversational Reading Counterpunch Crazymonk Curled up Daily Telegraph Der Tagesspiegel Denver Post Dissident Voice The Elegant Variation Entertainment Weekly Faz.net Financial Times GRAAT papers Gravity7 The Guardian The Harvard Book Review Houston Chronicle Humanist Iceland Spar The Independent The Independent on Sunday January Magazine Johnny America Lawrence.com London Review of Books Los Angeles Times MathFiction The Millions Milwaukee Journal-Sentinel The Modern Word Mousey Girl West The Nation Newsday New Statesman Newsweek Newsweek (2) Newsweek (3) NY Magazine Books New Yorker New York Press NY Review of Books The New York Sun NY Times NY Times (2) NZZ The Observer The Observer (2) Philadelphia Inquirer Pigsaw Blog The Pittsburgh Post-Gazette Popmatters Prospect Publishers Weekly Raintaxi RBooks Reluctant Habits Ryan Reviews Salon San Francisco Chronicle SciFi Weekly Seattle Times Sign and Sight Sign on San Diego Strange Horizons The Sunday Times The Sydney Morning Herald Time Time Out The Times (TLS) USA Today The Village Voice Virginia Quarterly Review Washington Post The Washington Times If there's anything any of you might want to add, modify or correct, let me know. Contact me also if there's any trouble with the links. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From g.i.s.pursey at reading.ac.uk Wed Jul 30 04:51:54 2008 From: g.i.s.pursey at reading.ac.uk (Guy Ian Scott Pursey) Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2008 10:51:54 +0100 Subject: what to read next that isn't pynchon In-Reply-To: <380-2200872292105439@M2W025.mail2web.com> References: <380-2200872292105439@M2W025.mail2web.com> Message-ID: <0A9745774F2BF6409F9544231DCC26610943FE56@vime1.rdg-home.ad.rdg.ac.uk> Hi Jill I'm reading 'The Odyssey' at the moment - before I started, I procrastinated for a while, idly wondering which translation I should go for. Ultimately, I went for the T.E. Lawrence (aka T.E. Shaw and Lawrence of Arabia) translation as it's the one my Dad gave me when I was a kid. I don't know how it stands compared with other translations - I've heard he's a bit loose with the language and there are some anachronisms... But I'm not familiar with the original text or its language and I haven't read any other translation. I'm enjoying it so far. It's in prose though I've heard (as I'm sure you have) that other translations are in verse. I found this page which might help a little: http://www.editoreric.com/greatlit/translations/Odyssey.html I've read elsewhere that the Lattimore translation is the "best". More recently, my Dad gave me a copy of 'Seven Pillars of Wisdom' (also by Lawrence), which along with 'Against The Day' and 'Ulysses' I wanted to get through before the end of year. (Ha!) Guy -----Original Message----- From: owner-pynchon-l at waste.org [mailto:owner-pynchon-l at waste.org] On Behalf Of grladams at teleport.com Sent: 29 July 2008 22:01 To: robinlandseadel at comcast.net; p-list Subject: RE: what to read next that isn't pynchon Thomas Mann's "Magic Mountain" is in a new English translation, (not new-new but still new) that's supposed to be much better to read. I'd be up for that. I've always wanted to read the Odyssey but wondered if anyone on this list had a favorite English edition? The Odyssey / Homer ; translated by Edward McCrorie, with an introduction and notes by Richard P. Martin; Johns Hopkins 2004 Odyssey / Homer ; translated by Lombardo, Stanley, 1943- ; introduction by Sheila Murnaghan. The Odyssey / Homer ; translated by Robert Fitzgerald 1910-; introduction by D.S. Carne-Ross. The Odyssey / Homer ; translated by Robert Fagles ; introduction and notes by Bernard Knox. Note: "This [pbk.] edition contains minor revisions of the text"--P. 496. The odyssey / translated by Hammond, Martin, 1944- ; with an introduction by Jasper Griffin. The odyssey of Homer / translated by George Herbert Palmer 1842-1933.. and many others I'm sure Jill Original Message: ----------------- From: robinlandseadel at comcast.net Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2008 11:45:12 +0000 To: pynchon-l at waste.org (P-list) Subject: RE: what to read next that isn't pynchon "Henry" : Big Book: Isn't there a comparatively recent translation of War and Peace that's supposed to be top drawer? Anyone read it yet? Anthony Briggs for Viking Press: http://www.amazon.com/War-Peace-Leo-Tolstoy/dp/067003469X I bought my copy two years back, but between Proust & Pynchon, my eyeballs are in search of shorter, more digestable works. Not to mention this mounting pile of metaphysical texts constantly demanding my attention. Evola on Heremetics is proving to be quite the education: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julius_Evola In addition to W & P, there are two early 20th century masterworks that seem to apply-Hesse's "The Glass Bead Game" and Thomas Mann's "Magic Mountain." But I suspect the "open sesame" will be: http://tinyurl.com/5vsju9 http://www.hermeticgoldendawn.org/Documents/Bios/regardie.htm -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://link.mail2web.com/mail2web From robinlandseadel at comcast.net Wed Jul 30 05:18:31 2008 From: robinlandseadel at comcast.net (robinlandseadel at comcast.net) Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2008 10:18:31 +0000 Subject: what to read next that isn't pynchon Message-ID: <073020081018.9917.48903FF7000ACC91000026BD2215568884040A0B0E0A9C0B020E0402070D019D@comcast.net> I'm still staring at this one�perched on my desk in an oversized "coffee-table" edition�Dante's Divine Comedy. Have some reason to believe it relates to what we usually read. Only read the John Cardi translation of "Inferno" so far. My oversized comedy is of the Longfellow translation with Dore's engravings and is marked with the toothmarks of�no, not Cerberus� my little cat Java. From fqmorris at gmail.com Wed Jul 30 07:41:14 2008 From: fqmorris at gmail.com (David Morris) Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2008 07:41:14 -0500 Subject: what to read next that isn't pynchon In-Reply-To: <8CABFDC82C60345-CE0-87C@webmail-da08.sysops.aol.com> References: <39a39c310807282303j23e79eb6ka7282cf95893bccb@mail.gmail.com> <8CABFDC82C60345-CE0-87C@webmail-da08.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <7d461dc80807300541n29a2b93ayb43d22f24007abf2@mail.gmail.com> I'm currently halfway through *Atmospheric Disturbances* by Rivka Galchen. Very well written, reminding me somewhat of Nabokov. I recommend it. http://us.macmillan.com/atmosphericdisturbances#biography Rivka Galchen recieved her MD from the Mount Sinai Shool of Medicine, having spent a year in South America working on public health issues. Galchen recently completed her MFA at Columbia University, where she was a Robert Bingham Fellow. Her essay on the Many Worlds Interpretation of quantum mechanics was published in The Believer, and she is the recipient of a 2006 Rona Jaffe Foundation Writers' Award. Galchen lives in New York City. This is her first novel. Synopsis: When Dr. Leo Liebenstein's wife disappears, she leaves behind a single, confounding clue: a woman who looks, talks, and behaves exactly like her—oralmost exactly like her—and even audaciously claims to be her. While everyone else is fooled by this imposter, Leo knows better than to trust his senses in matters of the heart. Certain that the original Rema is alive and in hiding, Leo embarks on a quixotic journey to reclaim his lost love. With the help of his psychiatric patient Harvey—who believes himself to be a secret agent who can control the weather—Leo attempts to unravel the mystery of the spousal switch. His investigation leads him to the enigmatic guidance of the meteorologist Dr. Tzvi Gal-Chen, the secret workings of the Royal Academy of Meteorology in their cosmic conflict with the 49 Quantum Fathers, and the unwelcome conviction that somehow he—or maybe his wife, or maybe even Harvey—lies at the center of all these unfathomables. From the streets of New York to the southernmost reaches of Patagonia, Leo's erratic quest becomes a test of how far he is willing to take his struggle against the seemingly uncontestable truth he knows in his heart to be false. Atmospheric Disturbances is at once a moving love story, a dark comedy, a psychological thriller, and a deeply disturbing portrait of a fracturing mind. With tremendous compassion and dazzling literary sophistication, Rivka Galchen investigates the moment of crisis when you suddenly realize that the reality you insist upon is no longer one you can accept, and the person you love has become merely the person you live with. This highly inventive debut explores the mysterious nature of human relationships, and how we spend our lives trying to weather the storms of our own making. From malignd at aol.com Wed Jul 30 07:46:35 2008 From: malignd at aol.com (malignd at aol.com) Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2008 08:46:35 -0400 Subject: what to read next that isn't pynchon In-Reply-To: <600568.12035.qm@web38404.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <600568.12035.qm@web38404.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <8CAC0596F6E1D5B-1564-94D@webmail-md20.sysops.aol.com> This sums Berger up very well. <<"Hell is Other people" that Sartre line, is a major theme.>> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From markekohut at yahoo.com Wed Jul 30 07:51:24 2008 From: markekohut at yahoo.com (Mark Kohut) Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2008 05:51:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: barely P:from a review of a video art exhibition in London Message-ID: <20222.794.qm@web38407.mail.mud.yahoo.com> This was how the novelist Philip Roth saw Nixon as early as 1960, in an essay lamenting the plight of the novelist in a country that (and this is 43 years ago) seemed to be exceeding all bounds of plausibility, making fiction redundant. The most spectacular example of this was the sight of Nixon on television: "Perhaps as a satiric literary creation, he might have seemed 'believable'," wrote Roth, "but I myself found that on the TV screen, as a real public figure, a political fact, my mind balked at taking him in." As it turned out, American novelists rose to the challenge. Paranoia and conspiracy theory structure the fiction of Pynchon and DeLillo. Nixon inspired more cultural achievement than any other American president: the paranoid style in 1970s cinema, from The Conversation to Taxi Driver, constitutes a Nixon cycle. He even inspired an opera. But his contribution to the birth of video art is less well known. From fqmorris at gmail.com Wed Jul 30 08:50:20 2008 From: fqmorris at gmail.com (David Morris) Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2008 08:50:20 -0500 Subject: NP- Orwell Diaries Message-ID: <7d461dc80807300650j521e00fdr18ab34069b6da63d@mail.gmail.com> http://orwelldiaries.wordpress.com/ >From 9th August 2008, you will be able to gather your own impression of Orwell's face from reading his most strongly individual piece of writing: his diaries. The Orwell Prize is delighted to announce that, to mark the 70th anniversary of the diaries, each diary entry will be published on this blog exactly seventy years after it was written, allowing you to follow Orwell's recuperation in Morocco, his return to the UK, and his opinions on the descent of Europe into war in real time. The diaries end in 1942, three years into the conflict. From ottosell at googlemail.com Wed Jul 30 09:12:12 2008 From: ottosell at googlemail.com (Otto) Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2008 16:12:12 +0200 Subject: Estange - Mit spanischer Zunge Message-ID: Estange Mit spanischer Zunge Für den Fall, dass die p.t. Leser noch nach einer Ferienlektüre suchen: "Gegen den Tag" von Thomas Pynchon ist mit seinen 1600 Seiten zwar ein anspruchsvoller Ziegel, und es erschließt sich dem Leser auch nicht so ohne Weiteres, worum es in diesem Roman überhaupt geht. Aber er liest sich blendend und enthält eine Menge hinreißender Geschichten: Von Anarchisten in Colorado, die Ende des 19. Jahrhunderts alles in die Luft sprengen, was nicht niet- und nagelfest ist; von zwei einander erbittert bekämpfenden Mathematikerfraktionen; von einem Luftschiff namens Inconvenience, das, mit mehreren alterlosen Knaben besetzt, rund um den Erdball fliegt, sowie von einem Herren, der sich für einen Krapfen hält ("Ich bin ein Berliner") und von seinem Psychiater, Dr. Dingkopf, zur Therapie mit Staubzucker bestreut und ins Regal einer Bäckerei gelegt wird. Auf Seite 579 von "Gegen den Tag" stichelt ein Herr namens Ewball in New Mexico gegen einen gewissen El Ñato und hält ihm vor, er sei Anarchist und pflege bei jeder sich bietenden Gelegenheit etwas in die Luft zu jagen. El Ñato hört das nicht gerne und protestiert: "'Wir jagen kein gar nix in Luft. Keiner hier weiß kein gar nix über keine Espreng-estoff! Stehlen bisschen vielleicht Dynamit aus Bergwerk, werfen Estange hier, Estange da, aber jetzt das ist alles anders". In diesem Zitat fällt sogleich auf, dass Pynchon bzw. sein Übersetzer durch die leicht entgleiste Syntax bzw. durch die Verwendung der Wörter "Espreng-estoff" und "Estange" zum Ausdruck bringen, dass wir es bei El Ñato nicht mit einem englischen (bzw. deutschen) Muttersprachler zu tun haben, sondern mit einem Herren spanischer Zunge. Offenkundig pflegen manche Spanischsprachige einem anlautenden Sp- oder St- ein E- voranzustellen, weil das für sie leichter auszusprechen ist: Estange, Estaub, Estartkapital, Estars and Estripes, Estiftzahn, Estiegengeländer und so fort. Dieser typisch spanischen Gepflogenheit steht zum Beispiel der Hang der Chinesen gegenüber, ein "r" durch ein "l" zu ersetzen, weshalb diese auch nicht "Espreng-estoff" sagen würden, sondern vielmehr "Splengstoff". Möglicherweise fallen den p.t. Lesern ja noch andere Beispiele für fremde Akzente und fremde Artikulationseigenheiten ein, über die sie die Allgemeinheit in Kenntnis setzen wollen. Von Christoph Winder Winders Wörterbuch zur Gegenwart ist ein Work in Progress. Zweckdienliche Hinweise auf bemerkens- und erörternswerte Wörter sind erbeten an christoph.winder at derStandard.at DER STANDARD, 29. Juli 2008 http://derstandard.at/?url=/?id=1216918043810 From paulmackin at verizon.net Wed Jul 30 09:02:49 2008 From: paulmackin at verizon.net (Paul Mackin) Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2008 10:02:49 -0400 Subject: It's hard to believe Thomas Pynchon wrote a sentence as bad as this one In-Reply-To: <95cde1ee0807291030l2f9c469fm7e14a54305d21dce@mail.gmail.com> References: <8362828.1217264852014.JavaMail.root@elwamui-royal.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <999307.77225.qm@web38407.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <79e49fac0807281654g5cf48212mabfc51e13df03190@mail.gmail.com> <39a39c310807282253s7097335o3e4e750dfd7e8056@mail.gmail.com> <95cde1ee0807291030l2f9c469fm7e14a54305d21dce@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <839D541762E1437F924CCAB8004CF041@winbox3> After she had given in to the notion of being > doubled up on, she > >found herself going out of the way looking for it, > usually one in her > >mouth, the other from behind, sometimes in her ass, so > she got quickly > >used to tasting her own fluids mixed with shit." Bad writing? Yes, too much high-falutin' authorial presence. 'given in to the notion" "found herself" "her own fluids" Needs to be rewritten from pov of an uneducated miner's daughter. "At first talkin' on both of 'em at once was too much, but truth be told two cocks in her instead of one was great, except half the time (those bastards) the guy she was blowin' tasted as much like shit as pussy." P. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From against.the.dave at gmail.com Wed Jul 30 10:14:26 2008 From: against.the.dave at gmail.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2008 10:14:26 -0500 Subject: 100 Best First Lines from Novels Message-ID: http://americanbookreview.org/100BestLines.asp From against.the.dave at gmail.com Wed Jul 30 10:34:58 2008 From: against.the.dave at gmail.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2008 10:34:58 -0500 Subject: Great Opening Sentences From Science Fiction Message-ID: http://io9.com/5027128/great-opening-sentences-from-science-fiction From against.the.dave at gmail.com Wed Jul 30 10:38:47 2008 From: against.the.dave at gmail.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2008 10:38:47 -0500 Subject: In the beginning ... Message-ID: Vonnegut leads with a lie, Pynchon with disorientation. And Nabokov slips from words to lust in an instant. Maybe what it takes to make a sentence great is a kind of spare universality.... http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/jacketcopy/2008/07/in-the-beginnin.html From robinlandseadel at comcast.net Wed Jul 30 12:01:24 2008 From: robinlandseadel at comcast.net (robinlandseadel at comcast.net) Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2008 17:01:24 +0000 Subject: 100 Best First Lines from Novels Message-ID: <073020081701.11506.48909E64000E0DE300002CF22216548686040A0B0E0A9C0B020E0402070D019D@comcast.net> 101: Louie pulled off his bra and threw it down upon the casket. Nick Tosches, "In the Hand of Dante" 2002 102: "Now single up all lines!" Thomas Pynchon, "Against the Day" 2006 103: He speaks in your voice, American, and there's a shine in his eye that's halfway hopeful. Don Delillo; Underworld 1997 104: A green hunting cap squeezed the top of the fleshy balloon of a head. John Kennedy Toole: "A Confedracy of Dunces" 105: On Tuesday, October 11,1988, the Jason Taverner Show ran thirty seconds late. Philip K. Dick: "Flow My Tears The Policeman Said" 1974 http://americanbookreview.org/100BestLines.asp From mryc2903 at yahoo.fr Wed Jul 30 13:51:36 2008 From: mryc2903 at yahoo.fr (Michel Ryckx) Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2008 20:51:36 +0200 Subject: 100 Best First Lines from Novels In-Reply-To: <073020081701.11506.48909E64000E0DE300002CF22216548686040A0B0E0A9C0B020E0402070D019D@comcast.net> References: <073020081701.11506.48909E64000E0DE300002CF22216548686040A0B0E0A9C0B020E0402070D019D@comcast.net> Message-ID: <4890B838.9070906@yahoo.fr> 106: That Quarrel, Goddess; tell me about it: the one between Achilles (he was Peleus' son), his damning Wrath, taking the Greeks into an endless Misery, sending off to the Underworld many heroes' mighty souls making their bodies victim to vultures and dogs fulfilling thus Zeus' initial plan, [the quarrel], from its very beginning, which broke Unity, and caused dissension betwixt't the Leader of Armies, the Atreid, and Achilles (who shone magnificently). Iliad, Homer, way B.C. robinlandseadel at comcast.net schreef: > 101: Louie pulled off his bra and threw it down upon the casket. > Nick Tosches, "In the Hand of Dante" 2002 > > 102: "Now single up all lines!" > Thomas Pynchon, "Against the Day" 2006 > > 103: He speaks in your voice, American, and there'sbreaking U a > shine in his eye that's halfway hopeful. > Don Delillo; Underworld 1997 > > 104: A green hunting cap squeezed the top of the fleshy > balloon of a head. > John Kennedy Toole: "A Confedracy of Dunces" > > 105: On Tuesday, October 11,1988, the Jason > Taverner Show ran thirty seconds late. > Philip K. Dick: "Flow My Tears The Policeman Said" 1974 > > > > http://americanbookreview.org/100BestLines.asp > > > > ___________________________________________________________________________ Yahoo! Mail réinvente le mail ! Découvrez le nouveau Yahoo! Mail et son interface révolutionnaire. http://fr.mail.yahoo.com From against.the.dave at gmail.com Wed Jul 30 14:14:18 2008 From: against.the.dave at gmail.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2008 14:14:18 -0500 Subject: 100 Best First Lines from Novels In-Reply-To: <4890B838.9070906@yahoo.fr> References: <073020081701.11506.48909E64000E0DE300002CF22216548686040A0B0E0A9C0B020E0402070D019D@comcast.net> <4890B838.9070906@yahoo.fr> Message-ID: On Wed, Jul 30, 2008 at 1:51 PM, Michel Ryckx wrote: > 106: That Quarrel, Goddess; > tell me about it: the one between Achilles (he was Peleus' son), > his damning Wrath, > taking the Greeks into an endless Misery, > sending off to the Underworld many heroes' mighty souls > making their bodies victim to vultures and dogs > fulfilling thus Zeus' initial plan, > [the quarrel], from its very beginning, > which broke Unity, and caused dissension > betwixt't the Leader of Armies, the Atreid, > and Achilles (who shone magnificently). > > Iliad, Homer, way B.C. > > robinlandseadel at comcast.net schreef: >> >> 101: Louie pulled off his bra and threw it down upon the casket. >> Nick Tosches, "In the Hand of Dante" 2002 >> >> 102: "Now single up all lines!" >> Thomas Pynchon, "Against the Day" 2006 >> >> 103: He speaks in your voice, American, and there'sbreaking U a shine in >> his eye that's halfway hopeful. >> Don Delillo; Underworld 1997 >> >> 104: A green hunting cap squeezed the top of the fleshy balloon of a head. >> John Kennedy Toole: "A Confedracy of Dunces" >> >> 105: On Tuesday, October 11,1988, the Jason Taverner Show ran thirty >> seconds late. >> Philip K. Dick: "Flow My Tears The Policeman Said" 1974 >> >> http://americanbookreview.org/100BestLines.asp 107. "It was a bright cold day in April, and the clocks were striking thirteen." George Orwell, 1984 (1949) 108. ''Dog carcass in alley this morning, tire tread on burst stomach." Alan Moore and Dave Gibbons, Watchmen (1986) 109. "This is my favorite book in all the world, though I have never read it." William Goldman, The Princess Bride (1973) From scuffling at gmail.com Wed Jul 30 14:42:41 2008 From: scuffling at gmail.com (Ian (Hank Kimble) Scuffling) Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2008 15:42:41 -0400 Subject: what to read next that isn't pynchon In-Reply-To: <0A9745774F2BF6409F9544231DCC26610943FE56@vime1.rdg-home.ad.rdg.ac.uk> References: <380-2200872292105439@M2W025.mail2web.com> <0A9745774F2BF6409F9544231DCC26610943FE56@vime1.rdg-home.ad.rdg.ac.uk> Message-ID: The Odyssey and the Inferno! Never the Illiad or the all too familiar Purgatorio! I do the same thing, myself, by the way. It's like PBS used to do with broadcasting classic movies by the masters: 200 Blows, La Strada, Seventh Seal (and maybe Personna and Wild Straberries), a-and Seven Samurai (seven again!). These are all on my list of fave fifty films (http://www.urdomain.us/Henrys50.htm), but each one of the auteur directors of these films had a lot more that would have been more worthwhile viewing than repeats of the creme de al creme. HM On Wed, Jul 30, 2008 at 5:51 AM, Guy Ian Scott Pursey wrote: > > Hi Jill > > I'm reading 'The Odyssey' at the moment - before I started, I > procrastinated for a while, idly wondering which translation I should go > for. Ultimately, I went for the T.E. Lawrence (aka T.E. Shaw and > Lawrence of Arabia) translation as it's the one my Dad gave me when I > was a kid. I don't know how it stands compared with other translations - > I've heard he's a bit loose with the language and there are some > anachronisms... But I'm not familiar with the original text or its > language and I haven't read any other translation. I'm enjoying it so > far. > > It's in prose though I've heard (as I'm sure you have) that other > translations are in verse. > > I found this page which might help a little: > http://www.editoreric.com/greatlit/translations/Odyssey.html > > I've read elsewhere that the Lattimore translation is the "best". > > More recently, my Dad gave me a copy of 'Seven Pillars of Wisdom' (also > by Lawrence), which along with 'Against The Day' and 'Ulysses' I wanted > to get through before the end of year. (Ha!) > > Guy > > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-pynchon-l at waste.org [mailto:owner-pynchon-l at waste.org] On > Behalf Of grladams at teleport.com > Sent: 29 July 2008 22:01 > To: robinlandseadel at comcast.net; p-list > Subject: RE: what to read next that isn't pynchon > > Thomas Mann's "Magic Mountain" is in a new English translation, (not > new-new but still new) that's supposed to be much better to read. I'd be > up > for that. I've always wanted to read the Odyssey but wondered if anyone > on > this list had a favorite English edition? > > The Odyssey / Homer ; translated by Edward McCrorie, with an > introduction > and notes by Richard P. Martin; Johns Hopkins 2004 > Odyssey / Homer ; translated by Lombardo, Stanley, 1943- ; introduction > by > Sheila Murnaghan. > The Odyssey / Homer ; translated by Robert Fitzgerald 1910-; > introduction > by D.S. Carne-Ross. > The Odyssey / Homer ; translated by Robert Fagles ; introduction and > notes > by Bernard Knox. Note: "This [pbk.] edition contains minor revisions of > the > text"--P. 496. > The odyssey / translated by Hammond, Martin, 1944- ; with an > introduction > by Jasper Griffin. > The odyssey of Homer / translated by George Herbert Palmer 1842-1933.. > and many others I'm sure > Jill From kelber at mindspring.com Wed Jul 30 15:23:56 2008 From: kelber at mindspring.com (kelber at mindspring.com) Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2008 16:23:56 -0400 (EDT) Subject: AtD (37) p.1057 Discussion alert! Major meaning section, ?? thinks Host Message-ID: <27369929.1217449436324.JavaMail.root@elwamui-royal.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Self-clarity, not buying in to the beliefs of the powers-that-be, the Elect, whether they're religious, political, industrial, and/or military, lead Lew to that zen-like state of grace where things are exactly what they are. The grace that the Chums fly to at the end, from this viewpoint, isn't a Biblical form of grace, but instead, the grace of self-knowledge and clarity (the clarity that we as readers in the present might have in looking back at the early 20th century?), simultaneously their own journey and their own destination. Clarity and self-knowledge (grace) not being "good" in the Biblical, moral sense, but "good" in the sense that it implies intelligence? Laura -----Original Message----- >From: Mark Kohut >Sent: Jul 29, 2008 4:50 PM >To: pynchon -l >Subject: AtD (37) p.1057 Discussion alert! Major meaning section, ?? thinks Host > >Lew Basnight, detective, a book-length thread of meanings in AtD has a revelation........ > >What does it mean? > >Who are all these people Lew is interacting with at Carefree Court(!); a crowd even he, old L.A. hand, finds hard to "read"? Just a Hollywood crowd? or as broad a crossection of humanity as America was becoming--lotsa immmigrants in Hollywood---working daily in the 'new America' of 'mediated reality', not hard labor? > >The flush, energetic, wide-open [much anti-Puritanism, say some historians, flapper and booze 1920s? Can we see the whole crooked timber of humanity'--Kant--at this gathering? ; "the whole stock and joint company" --[Ishmael in Moby Dick]--living working in the daylit fiction that is America? > >Lew "seeing the great point and in the 'same instant' "recognizing the ongoing crime that had been his own life"....."Self-clarity" .........."a mortal sin"........???? > >WTF? > >Okay, pretty important revelation to understand Lew and more of AtD, yes? Why is such self-clarity a mortal sin? [Am I reading that right?]...."mortal sin" is a concept from the Western Christian tradition mostly. Shows Lew's religion in his upbringing [he is Presbyterian]. A mortal sin is one that totally cuts one off from God, goes the tradition. How could this 'self-clarity' totally cut him off from his God?....A revelation that his whole life had been 'an ongoing crime"...not acts he committed but his whole life. ?? > >Trying to catch this ragtag assembly of humanity is the ongoing crime? This some W.A.S.T.E.-like motley group of human beings, 'displaying scars and tattoos, etc." all 'having survived some calamity" ?? > >Or is Lew 'unreliable' in his reflections here? > >So, once Lew recognized that it was a 'crime' to chase the preterites, as it were, then he is no longer on the side of the Elect? No longer a believer in the Church's/Society's way of judging, so his 'mortal sin' is to not believe.? >(THAT cuts one off from one's Christian God while one is in that state, fer sure)..... > > It is this that got him unambiguously dynamited into his new life. ??? Comments sought, please. > >I have other thoughts which I will spare for now in order to open the discussion against my words above.... > > > > From kelber at mindspring.com Wed Jul 30 15:29:07 2008 From: kelber at mindspring.com (kelber at mindspring.com) Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2008 16:29:07 -0400 (EDT) Subject: 100 Best First Lines from Novels Message-ID: <19922843.1217449748386.JavaMail.root@elwamui-royal.atl.sa.earthlink.net> To be honest, I found this first sentence so unpleasant that it put me off (rightly or wrongly) from reading the book. Maybe a book shouldn't be judged by its cover, but the first sentence seems fair game -- the author's got complete control. Laura -----Original Message----- >From: robinlandseadel at comcast.net > >104: A green hunting cap squeezed the top of the fleshy >balloon of a head. >John Kennedy Toole: "A Confedracy of Dunces" > > > >http://americanbookreview.org/100BestLines.asp > From robinlandseadel at comcast.net Wed Jul 30 15:48:56 2008 From: robinlandseadel at comcast.net (robinlandseadel at comcast.net) Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2008 20:48:56 +0000 Subject: 100 Best First Lines from Novels Message-ID: <073020082048.10906.4890D3B80009B84100002A9A2215593414040A0B0E0A9C0B020E0402070D019D@comcast.net> Fair enough Laura. I'll confess that my eeeeesthetique leans more towards Bob Clampett & Chuck Jones, Tex Avery�one of those things that I just loooooooove in Pynchon, Vineland in particular, are the cartoons. They may be cardboard-cutout cartoons of characters, but they're every bit as good as anything on the Simpsons. The first image of Ignatius J. Reilly is a malevolent comic masterstroke, much like Bob Clampett's and Chuck Jones' early rendition of Elmer Fudd, with rolls of fat joining neck and skull, clearly a tragicomic clown, with an infants soft skull, an obvious case of craniotabes. Genius, really. -------------- Original message ---------------------- From: kelber at mindspring.com > To be honest, I found this first sentence so unpleasant that it put me off > (rightly or wrongly) from reading the book. Maybe a book shouldn't be judged by > its cover, but the first sentence seems fair game -- the author's got complete > control. > > Laura > > -----Original Message----- > >From: robinlandseadel at comcast.net > > > > >104: A green hunting cap squeezed the top of the fleshy > >balloon of a head. > >John Kennedy Toole: "A Confedracy of Dunces" > > > > > > > >http://americanbookreview.org/100BestLines.asp > > > From kelber at mindspring.com Wed Jul 30 16:00:45 2008 From: kelber at mindspring.com (kelber at mindspring.com) Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2008 17:00:45 -0400 (EDT) Subject: 100 Best First Lines from Novels Message-ID: <7546717.1217451646176.JavaMail.root@elwamui-royal.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Not a Fudd-fan either. No wonder that first line turned me off! Laura -----Original Message----- >From: robinlandseadel at comcast.net >Sent: Jul 30, 2008 4:48 PM >To: P-list >Subject: Re: 100 Best First Lines from Novels > >Fair enough Laura. > >I'll confess that my eeeeesthetique leans more towards Bob Clampett >& Chuck Jones, Tex Avery—one of those things that I just >loooooooove in Pynchon, Vineland in particular, are the cartoons. >They may be cardboard-cutout cartoons of characters, but they're >every bit as good as anything on the Simpsons. The first image of >Ignatius J. Reilly is a malevolent comic masterstroke, much like >Bob Clampett's and Chuck Jones' early rendition of Elmer Fudd, >with rolls of fat joining neck and skull, clearly a tragicomic clown, >with an infants soft skull, an obvious case of craniotabes. > >Genius, really. > -------------- Original message ---------------------- >From: kelber at mindspring.com >> To be honest, I found this first sentence so unpleasant that it put me off >> (rightly or wrongly) from reading the book. Maybe a book shouldn't be judged by >> its cover, but the first sentence seems fair game -- the author's got complete >> control. >> >> Laura >> >> -----Original Message----- >> >From: robinlandseadel at comcast.net >> >> > >> >104: A green hunting cap squeezed the top of the fleshy >> >balloon of a head. >> >John Kennedy Toole: "A Confedracy of Dunces" >> > >> > >> > >> >http://americanbookreview.org/100BestLines.asp >> > >> > From malignd at aol.com Wed Jul 30 18:18:18 2008 From: malignd at aol.com (malignd at aol.com) Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2008 19:18:18 -0400 Subject: 100 Best First Lines from Novels In-Reply-To: <19922843.1217449748386.JavaMail.root@elwamui-royal.atl.sa.earthlink.net> References: <19922843.1217449748386.JavaMail.root@elwamui-royal.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <8CAC0B1AFB7BDD3-7DC-1FAF@WEBMAIL-MA17.sysops.aol.com> It's a grossly overrated book. To be honest, I found this first sentence so unpleasant that it put me off (rightly or wrongly) from reading the book. Maybe a book shouldn't be judged by its cover, but the first sentence seems fair game -- the author's got complete control. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From malignd at aol.com Wed Jul 30 20:22:37 2008 From: malignd at aol.com (malignd at aol.com) Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2008 21:22:37 -0400 Subject: 100 Best First Lines from Novels Message-ID: <8CAC0C30D4B1259-C4C-1213@WEBMAIL-MA05.sysops.aol.com> Not a bad list, although pretty predictable.  Pleased to see Stanley Elkin on it.  The Old Man and the Sea opener is lovely enough, but the book's awful, which should have disqualified it.  And if you're going to pick from Joe Heller, the Catch-22 line is the obvious choice, but "I get the wilies [sp.] when I see closed doors" from Something Happened is better. Also, re Nabokov, "I was the shadow of the waxwing slain," isn't the first line of Pale Fire or even close; and "Happy families are all alike; every unhappy family is unhappy in its own way," is, I think (I don't have it here with me), also the first sentence of Ada (that clever VN). -----Original Message----- From: Dave Monroe To: pynchon -l Sent: Wed, 30 Jul 2008 11:14 am Subject: 100 Best First Lines from Novels http://americanbookreview.org/100BestLines.asp -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From malignd at aol.com Wed Jul 30 20:24:57 2008 From: malignd at aol.com (malignd at aol.com) Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2008 21:24:57 -0400 Subject: 100 Best First Lines from Novels In-Reply-To: References: <073020081701.11506.48909E64000E0DE300002CF22216548686040A0B0E0A9C0B020E0402070D019D@comcast.net> <4890B838.9070906@yahoo.fr> Message-ID: <8CAC0C3610E4D2B-C4C-1235@WEBMAIL-MA05.sysops.aol.com> Demoted from #8? <<107. "It was a bright cold day in April, and the clocks were striking thirteen." George Orwell, 1984 (1949)>> -----Original Message----- From: Dave Monroe To: Michel Ryckx Cc: pynchon-l at waste.org Sent: Wed, 30 Jul 2008 3:14 pm Subject: Re: 100 Best First Lines from Novels On Wed, Jul 30, 2008 at 1:51 PM, Michel Ryckx wrote: > 106: That Quarrel, Goddess; > tell me about it: the one between Achilles (he was Peleus' son), > his damning Wrath, > taking the Greeks into an endless Misery, > sending off to the Underworld many heroes' mighty souls > making their bodies victim to vultures and dogs > fulfilling thus Zeus' initial plan, > [the quarrel], from its very beginning, > which broke Unity, and caused dissension > betwixt't the Leader of Armies, the Atreid, > and Achilles (who shone magnificently). > > Iliad, Homer, way B.C. > > robinlandseadel at comcast.net schreef: >> >> 101: Louie pulled off his bra and threw it down upon the casket. >> Nick Tosches, "In the Hand of Dante" 2002 >> >> 102: "Now single up all lines!" >> Thomas Pynchon, "Against the Day" 2006 >> >> 103: He speaks in your voice, American, and there'sbreaking U a shine in >> his eye that's halfway hopeful. >> Don Delillo; Underworld 1997 >> >> 104: A green hunting cap squeezed the top of the fleshy balloon of a head. >> John Kennedy Toole: "A Confedracy of Dunces" >> >> 105: On Tuesday, October 11,1988, the Jason Taverner Show ran thirty >> seconds late. >> Philip K. Dick: "Flow My Tears The Policeman Said" 1974 >> >> http://americanbookreview.org/100BestLines.asp 107. "It was a bright cold day in April, and the clocks were striking thirteen." George Orwell, 1984 (1949) 108. ''Dog carcass in alley this morning, tire tread on burst stomach." Alan Moore and Dave Gibbons, Watchmen (1986) 109. "This is my favorite book in all the world, though I have never read it." William Goldman, The Princess Bride (1973) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From krafftjm at muohio.edu Wed Jul 30 22:42:29 2008 From: krafftjm at muohio.edu (Krafft, John M.) Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2008 23:42:29 -0400 Subject: Good first lines Message-ID: The latest list is semi-interesting, but it disappoints, as all such lists must, by what it omits. Every time this topic has come up here, I've been tempted to post one of my own favorites, so here goes: I have often thought that with any luck at all I could have been born a werewolf, because the two middle fingers on both my hands are the same length, but I have had to be content with what I had. I dislike washing myself, and dogs, and noise. --Shirley Jackson, _We Have Always Lived in the Castle_ (1962) OK, it isn't just one sentence (I couldn't resist going on a bit more), and it isn't actually quite first, but it's close enough (third, if you must know). John -- John M. Krafft / English Miami University–Hamilton / 1601 University Blvd. / Hamilton, OH 45011-3399 Tel: 513.785.3031 or 513.868.2330 Fax: 513.785.3145 E-mail: krafftjm at muohio.edu WWW: http://www.ham.muohio.edu/~krafftjm or http://PynchonNotes.org From michael.lee.bailey at gmail.com Wed Jul 30 23:22:49 2008 From: michael.lee.bailey at gmail.com (Michael Bailey) Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2008 00:22:49 -0400 Subject: 100 Best First Lines from Novels In-Reply-To: <073020082048.10906.4890D3B80009B84100002A9A2215593414040A0B0E0A9C0B020E0402070D019D@comcast.net> References: <073020082048.10906.4890D3B80009B84100002A9A2215593414040A0B0E0A9C0B020E0402070D019D@comcast.net> Message-ID: CoD actually turned out to be fairly fun, and had a happy ending. not to deal out spoilers, but Thank goodness for the nice Jewish girl he met! Just read the Yiddish Policeman's Union. That main character had about the same mix of attractive and unattractive traits as old Ignatius, I thought. And was as good a vehicle for spawning ruminations on the subculture - Jewish diaspora and New Orleans underclass respectively - and soaking up an imagined atmosphere. On 7/30/08, robinlandseadel at comcast.net wrote: > Fair enough Laura. > > I'll confess that my eeeeesthetique leans more towards Bob Clampett > & Chuck Jones, Tex Avery—one of those things that I just > loooooooove in Pynchon, Vineland in particular, are the cartoons. > They may be cardboard-cutout cartoons of characters, but they're > every bit as good as anything on the Simpsons. The first image of > Ignatius J. Reilly is a malevolent comic masterstroke, much like > Bob Clampett's and Chuck Jones' early rendition of Elmer Fudd, > with rolls of fat joining neck and skull, clearly a tragicomic clown, > with an infants soft skull, an obvious case of craniotabes. > > Genius, really. > > -------------- Original message ---------------------- > From: kelber at mindspring.com > > To be honest, I found this first sentence so unpleasant that it put me off > > (rightly or wrongly) from reading the book. Maybe a book shouldn't be judged by > > its cover, but the first sentence seems fair game -- the author's got complete > > control. > > > > Laura > > > > -----Original Message----- > > >From: robinlandseadel at comcast.net > > > > > > > >104: A green hunting cap squeezed the top of the fleshy > > >balloon of a head. > > >John Kennedy Toole: "A Confedracy of Dunces" > > > > > > > > > > > >http://americanbookreview.org/100BestLines.asp > > > > > > > From michael.lee.bailey at gmail.com Wed Jul 30 23:52:29 2008 From: michael.lee.bailey at gmail.com (Michael Bailey) Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2008 00:52:29 -0400 Subject: imhos (imhotep)(largely NP) Message-ID: Monte wrote > Which was also the line away from routine childhood death by dysentery etc, > slavery, > hereditary nobility, and so many other nostalgic features. Not to fault the > efficiency of the Modern Abbatoir, but somehow there are far more of us than > in those sweet gracious holistic harmonious pre-Enlightenment times. > that was - imho - one of yer best rebuttals yet...brief yet tasty... not that it closed the book on Robin's animadversions which are still interesting and pertinent -- imho those Madea movies are frickin' great...the way that people cut loose and wail... Maya Angelou reading in Madea's Family Reunion.. -- imho Henry Rollins spoken word is quite enjoyable; very nice indeed... just listened to Conversation Pit and have the urge to hear more From michael.lee.bailey at gmail.com Thu Jul 31 00:10:39 2008 From: michael.lee.bailey at gmail.com (Michael Bailey) Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2008 01:10:39 -0400 Subject: Pamuk Snow (NP) Message-ID: "...wishing his friends luck, told them that no matter what suffering lay ahead, he remained certain they would and could bring happiness to the people through the exercise of merciless violence" - Orhan Pamuk _Snow_ really nicely done book. -- this weekend: unpack my copy of AtD and respond to some of Mark's excellent questions... From michael.lee.bailey at gmail.com Thu Jul 31 00:49:06 2008 From: michael.lee.bailey at gmail.com (Michael Bailey) Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2008 01:49:06 -0400 Subject: AtD (37) pp.1040 ff. Thoughts on Lew Basnight, detective. In-Reply-To: References: <006e01c8eb36$ef780240$ce6806c0$@com> <754421.36065.qm@web38406.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Mark Kohut wrote: > > > TRPs sympathetic protagonists are NOT ego-driven, but receptive to things as they are? > eenhyeh...my ostinato is Merle is a keystone or axle of the book (for one thing, he's a tasty extrapolation of the protagonist in Stone Junction which drew the raviest of blurbs; and a single father like Zoyd...) training on Merle as a landmark while crossing the great water, Lew is not far off to one side, with a lanthorn, illuminating important themes: spiritually - guilt/grace, detection (application of rationality) and the limits of its usefulness, hiistorically - the evolution of the private dick from thug to thinker (Dashiell Hammett IRL experienced a similar rejection of union-busting to that of Lew) if guilt is imposed on Lew from outside in Chicago - Troth, the spouse and seemingly everybody he meets - then by the time he's working in LA, he's ready to himself feel his life as a long crime... it may not be the only meaning, but some shrift ought to be given to Original Sin (my other ostinato: Pynchon is a Christian novelist) From michael.lee.bailey at gmail.com Thu Jul 31 00:54:43 2008 From: michael.lee.bailey at gmail.com (Michael Bailey) Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2008 01:54:43 -0400 Subject: np political spam...non partisan voting integrity concern... Message-ID: Obama Doesn't Sweat. He should. by Greg Palast In swing-state Colorado, the Republican Secretary of State conducted the biggest purge of voters in history, dumping a fifth of all registrations. Guess their color. In swing-state Florida, the state is refusing to accept about 85,000 new registrations from voter drives - overwhelming Black voters. In swing state New Mexico, HALF of the Democrats of Mora, a dirt poor and overwhelmingly Hispanic county, found their registrations disappeared this year, courtesy of a Republican voting contractor. In swing states Ohio and Nevada, new federal law is knocking out tens of thousands of voters who lost their homes to foreclosure. My investigations partner spoke directly to Barack Obama about it. (When your partner is Robert F. Kennedy Jr., candidates take your phone call.) The cool, cool Senator Obama told Kennedy he was "concerned" about the integrity of the vote in the Southwest in particular. He's concerned. I'm sweating. It's time SOMEBODY raised the alarm about these missing voters; not to save Obama's candidacy – journalists should stay the heck away from partisan endorsements - but raise the alarm to save our sick democracy. And that somebody is YOU. Joining with US, the Palast investigative team. Here's how: We have been offered an astonishing opportunity to place the Kennedy-Palast investigative findings on a national, prime-time, major-network television broadcast. Plus, separately, we have an extraordinary offer to create a series of reports for national network radio. But guess what? The networks will NOT PAY for our public service reports. We have to raise the start-up funds in the next two weeks to film it, record it and get it on the airwaves. WE need YOU to fund the reports, DISSEMINATE the findings as we post the print, audio and video on the web– and ACT on it. So, for only the second time this year, I am asking each one of you to make a tax deductible donation to the non-profit, non-partisan Palast Investigative Fund of $500, $150 or $100. Progressives have complained for years of no opportunity to get the hard, cold sweaty truth on the air. Well, put your money where your heart and soul is. Donate at least $500, I'll send you every book I've written and every film, signed. Send $150 and I'll send you as a gift, a copy of John Ennis' film Free For All, Armed Madhouse, The Election Files and a copy of Live from the Armed Madhouse all signed. Donate $100, and I'll send you 3 copies, one signed to you, of "The Elections Files," (Watch the trailer here) the best of our BBC/Democracy Now films – including special never-broadcast interviews with Kennedy(Watch a clip) and fired prosecutor David Iglesias (Watch a clip). I know you're ponying up for your favorite candidates. But what's the point of winning folks' votes IF NO ONE COUNTS THEM? Please make your donation – today. No corporation, no big foundation, is going to take on this emergency in our democracy. The election's about to be stolen – for a third time. SO WHAT ARE YOU GOING TO DO ABOUT IT? Donate today (for $1,000 minimum, we'll list you as a Producer of our next DVD, in gratitude). Why? Because the only way to get the vote-chewing cockroaches out of the voting machinery is to turn on the lights – tell the truth on them. On prime time. After our team busted the story of Katherine Harris' attack on innocent Black voters as "felons," the NAACP sued and won back their rights. The truth CAN make the difference. Yes, we can. Indeed, we HAVE. Think all votes should be counted in America? Then YOU stand up and be counted. Don't expect networks or commercial sponsors to pay for your democracy. Feed the truth, donate $100 right now and pass on a copy of the Elections Files to your dippy cousin who thinks Kerry lost fair and square. Donations from our prior and only request already paid for some of our filming in the Southwest. Don't let this story be swept under the border. If you want more information, go to GregPalast.com, or write me directly at GregPalast.com – and hit the button, "contact Greg." From isread at btinternet.com Thu Jul 31 02:38:11 2008 From: isread at btinternet.com (Paul Nightingale) Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2008 08:38:11 +0100 Subject: Thomas Pynchon: Realism in an Age of Ontological Uncertainty? Message-ID: <000001c8f2e0$62c54270$284fc750$@com> http://www.blackwell-compass.com/subject/literature/article_view?article_id= lico_articles_bpl512 From isread at btinternet.com Thu Jul 31 05:40:03 2008 From: isread at btinternet.com (Paul Nightingale) Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2008 11:40:03 +0100 Subject: Thomas Pynchon: Realism in an Age of Ontological Uncertainty? Message-ID: <000101c8f2f9$cb9c3650$62d4a2f0$@com> http://www.blackwell-compass.com/subject/literature/section_home?section=lic o-american This one should work better: scroll down to the link to Watson's paper. From isread at btinternet.com Thu Jul 31 05:50:30 2008 From: isread at btinternet.com (Paul Nightingale) Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2008 11:50:30 +0100 Subject: Thomas Pynchon: Realism in an Age of Ontological Uncertainty? Message-ID: <000201c8f2fb$40760a90$c1621fb0$@com> http://www.blackwell-compass.com/subject/literature/ Ok, third time of asking. Hopefully this link won't break! Click on American section and scroll down to Watson's paper. From robinlandseadel at comcast.net Thu Jul 31 06:42:58 2008 From: robinlandseadel at comcast.net (robinlandseadel at comcast.net) Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2008 11:42:58 +0000 Subject: Thomas Pynchon: Realism in an Age of Ontological Uncertainty? Message-ID: <073120081142.18322.4891A54200001889000047922215567074040A0B0E0A9C0B020E0402070D019D@comcast.net> Better still: http://tinyurl.com/6y29nh -------------- Original message ---------------------- From: "Paul Nightingale" > http://www.blackwell-compass.com/subject/literature/article_view?article_id=lico_articles_bpl512 From robinlandseadel at comcast.net Thu Jul 31 06:48:50 2008 From: robinlandseadel at comcast.net (robinlandseadel at comcast.net) Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2008 11:48:50 +0000 Subject: Good first lines Message-ID: <073120081148.28373.4891A6A20003460F00006ED52215567074040A0B0E0A9C0B020E0402070D019D@comcast.net> Similarly heterodox, the first two sentences from Nick Tosches' "Dino�Living High in the Dirty Business of Dreams": It was like the guys from the other side used to say: La vecchiaia � carogna. They were right: Old age is carrion. -------------- Original message ---------------------- From: "Krafft, John M." The latest list is semi-interesting, but it disappoints. . . . From robinlandseadel at comcast.net Thu Jul 31 07:47:45 2008 From: robinlandseadel at comcast.net (robinlandseadel at comcast.net) Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2008 12:47:45 +0000 Subject: Thomas Pynchon: Realism in an Age of Ontological Uncertainty? Message-ID: <073120081247.26650.4891B471000617280000681A2216557996040A0B0E0A9C0B020E0402070D019D@comcast.net> Furthermore. . .. http://tinyurl.com/5m7fct -------------- Original message ---------------------- From: robinlandseadel at comcast.net > Better still: > > http://tinyurl.com/6y29nh > -------------- Original message ---------------------- > From: "Paul Nightingale" > > > http://www.blackwell-compass.com/subject/literature/article_view?article_id=lico _articles_bpl512 From ottosell at googlemail.com Thu Jul 31 08:08:31 2008 From: ottosell at googlemail.com (Otto) Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2008 15:08:31 +0200 Subject: NP Night Watch (2004 film) Message-ID: Night Watch (2004 film) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Night_Watch_(2004_film) http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/W%C3%A4chter_der_Nacht_%E2%80%93_Nochnoi_Dozor I've seen the movie recently and I think it's quite well done. From against.the.dave at gmail.com Thu Jul 31 08:18:10 2008 From: against.the.dave at gmail.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2008 08:18:10 -0500 Subject: James Wood Ain't Afraid of Lit's Favorite Sons Message-ID: James Wood Ain't Afraid of Lit's Favorite Sons Updike might not enjoy this By Giles Harvey Tuesday, July 29th 2008 [...] Literary criticism is perhaps an inherently pugnacious discipline, and it's certainly a dialectical one. Nietzsche said that "Every talent must unfold itself in fighting," and Wood is a case in point. Like a rude but virtuous provincial indifferent to the capital's elaborate codes of etiquette, Wood, an English expat, has attacked many of the dignitaries of contemporary American fiction in a way that has often scandalized the right-thinking classes. He deplores Updike for "That quality of fattened paganism [. . .] which finds the same degree of sensuality in everything, whether it is a woman's breast or an avocado." DeLillo is castigated for his "anxiety about having anyone of substance in [Underworld] unconnected to his central theme," an anxiety that "is not only irritatingly airless but itself begins to seem a little paranoid, as if he can employ only characters who are loyal to him and his agenda." Similarly inadequate are the "rapid, farce-like, overlit simplicities" of Pynchon, in whose novels "everyone is ultimately protected from real menace because no one really exists." ... [...] http://www.villagevoice.com/2008-07-29/books/james-wood-ain-t-afraid-of-lit-s-favorite-sons/ From glenn_scheper at earthlink.net Thu Jul 31 08:58:29 2008 From: glenn_scheper at earthlink.net (Glenn Scheper) Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2008 06:58:29 -0700 (GMT-07:00) Subject: Best first line. Thinking outside the box (of novels) Message-ID: <12428351.1217512709855.JavaMail.root@mswamui-backed.atl.sa.earthlink.net> In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. Yours truly, Glenn Scheper http://home.earthlink.net/~glenn_scheper/ glenn_scheper + at + earthlink.net Copyleft(!) Forward freely. From scuffling at gmail.com Thu Jul 31 09:37:11 2008 From: scuffling at gmail.com (Ian (Hank Kimble) Scuffling) Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2008 10:37:11 -0400 Subject: World's Oldest Joke Message-ID: John McCain, Papa Bush, and Methusalah walk into a bar... But seriously: http://www.reuters.com/article/oddlyEnoughNews/idUSKUA14785120080731?fee dType=RSS&feedName=oddlyEnoughNews http://uktv.co.uk/uktv/item/aid/604709 -- AsB4, Henry From joeallonby at gmail.com Thu Jul 31 09:46:09 2008 From: joeallonby at gmail.com (Joe Allonby) Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2008 09:46:09 -0500 Subject: Great Opening Sentences From Science Fiction In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Listen! Billy Pilgrim has become unstuck in time. On Wed, Jul 30, 2008 at 10:34 AM, Dave Monroe wrote: > http://io9.com/5027128/great-opening-sentences-from-science-fiction > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ottosell at googlemail.com Thu Jul 31 10:01:19 2008 From: ottosell at googlemail.com (Otto) Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2008 17:01:19 +0200 Subject: Good first lines In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: 2008/7/31 Krafft, John M. : > The latest list is semi-interesting, but it disappoints, as all such lists must, by what it omits. Every time this topic has come up here, I've been tempted to post one of my own favorites, so here goes: > > I have often thought that with any luck at all I could have been born a werewolf, because the two middle fingers on both my hands are the same length, but I have had to be content with what I had. I dislike washing myself, and dogs, and noise. --Shirley Jackson, _We Have Always Lived in the Castle_ (1962) > > OK, it isn't just one sentence (I couldn't resist going on a bit more), and it isn't actually quite first, but it's close enough (third, if you must know). > > John > Ok, if more than one sentence is allowed John Barth's beginning of his "Perseid" is still one of my all-time favourites: -------- Good evening. Stories last longer than men, stones than stories, stars than stones. Bur even our stars' nights are numbered, and with them will pass this patterned tale to a long-deceased earth. Nightly, when I wake to think myself beworlded and find myself in heaven, I review the night I woke to think and find myself vice-versa. ("Chimera", 1972, p. 67) --------- Once upon a time I tried to translate this story into German, but I never managed to get across that second sentence. Otto From markekohut at yahoo.com Thu Jul 31 10:18:18 2008 From: markekohut at yahoo.com (Mark Kohut) Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2008 08:18:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: first lines if stories can count Message-ID: <634412.18403.qm@web38403.mail.mud.yahoo.com> "None of them knew the color of the sky".--The Open Boat, Stephen Crane From paulmackin at verizon.net Thu Jul 31 09:02:12 2008 From: paulmackin at verizon.net (Paul Mackin) Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2008 10:02:12 -0400 Subject: James Wood Ain't Afraid of Lit's Favorite Sons In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sunday you could read the first chapter of his new book "How Fiction Works" free on the NY Times site. (not sure it's still there) Very interesting. In the article Paul N. pointed out, "James Wood" gets referred to as "James Woods" (like the actor) P ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave Monroe" To: "pynchon -l" Sent: Thursday, July 31, 2008 9:18 AM Subject: James Wood Ain't Afraid of Lit's Favorite Sons > James Wood Ain't Afraid of Lit's Favorite Sons > Updike might not enjoy this > By Giles Harvey > Tuesday, July 29th 2008 > > [...] > > Literary criticism is perhaps an inherently pugnacious discipline, and > it's certainly a dialectical one. Nietzsche said that "Every talent > must unfold itself in fighting," and Wood is a case in point. Like a > rude but virtuous provincial indifferent to the capital's elaborate > codes of etiquette, Wood, an English expat, has attacked many of the > dignitaries of contemporary American fiction in a way that has often > scandalized the right-thinking classes. He deplores Updike for "That > quality of fattened paganism [. . .] which finds the same degree of > sensuality in everything, whether it is a woman's breast or an > avocado." DeLillo is castigated for his "anxiety about having anyone > of substance in [Underworld] unconnected to his central theme," an > anxiety that "is not only irritatingly airless but itself begins to > seem a little paranoid, as if he can employ only characters who are > loyal to him and his agenda." Similarly inadequate are the "rapid, > farce-like, overlit simplicities" of Pynchon, in whose novels > "everyone is ultimately protected from real menace because no one > really exists." ... > > [...] > > http://www.villagevoice.com/2008-07-29/books/james-wood-ain-t-afraid-of-lit-s-favorite-sons/ > From scuffling at gmail.com Thu Jul 31 10:37:57 2008 From: scuffling at gmail.com (Ian (Hank Kimble) Scuffling) Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2008 11:37:57 -0400 Subject: Best first line. Thinking outside the box (of novels) In-Reply-To: <12428351.1217512709855.JavaMail.root@mswamui-backed.atl.sa.earthlink.net> References: <12428351.1217512709855.JavaMail.root@mswamui-backed.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: Oy! Someone had to say it; better you than me, Glenn. Henry Mu On Thu, Jul 31, 2008 at 9:58 AM, Glenn Scheper: > In the beginning was the Word, > and the Word was with God, > and the Word was God. > > > Yours truly, > Glenn Scheper > http://home.earthlink.net/~glenn_scheper/ > glenn_scheper + at + earthlink.net > Copyleft(!) Forward freely. > > -- AsB4, Henry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From igrlivingston at gmail.com Thu Jul 31 10:40:56 2008 From: igrlivingston at gmail.com (Ian Livingston) Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2008 08:40:56 -0700 Subject: James Wood Ain't Afraid of Lit's Favorite Sons In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <95cde1ee0807310840k402147a5u1711dd1b9a4359f5@mail.gmail.com> Fools are fearless. It takes courage to enter terrain you perceive is dangerous to your self-certainty. I happen to agree on Updike, but that's a pretty casual dismissal of both authors. If Wood has something genuine to contribute, I might become interested. On Thu, Jul 31, 2008 at 6:18 AM, Dave Monroe wrote: > James Wood Ain't Afraid of Lit's Favorite Sons > Updike might not enjoy this > By Giles Harvey > Tuesday, July 29th 2008 > > [...] > > Literary criticism is perhaps an inherently pugnacious discipline, and > it's certainly a dialectical one. Nietzsche said that "Every talent > must unfold itself in fighting," and Wood is a case in point. Like a > rude but virtuous provincial indifferent to the capital's elaborate > codes of etiquette, Wood, an English expat, has attacked many of the > dignitaries of contemporary American fiction in a way that has often > scandalized the right-thinking classes. He deplores Updike for "That > quality of fattened paganism [. . .] which finds the same degree of > sensuality in everything, whether it is a woman's breast or an > avocado." DeLillo is castigated for his "anxiety about having anyone > of substance in [Underworld] unconnected to his central theme," an > anxiety that "is not only irritatingly airless but itself begins to > seem a little paranoid, as if he can employ only characters who are > loyal to him and his agenda." Similarly inadequate are the "rapid, > farce-like, overlit simplicities" of Pynchon, in whose novels > "everyone is ultimately protected from real menace because no one > really exists." ... > > [...] > > > http://www.villagevoice.com/2008-07-29/books/james-wood-ain-t-afraid-of-lit-s-favorite-sons/ > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ruudsaurins at aol.com Thu Jul 31 10:43:16 2008 From: ruudsaurins at aol.com (ruudsaurins at aol.com) Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2008 11:43:16 -0400 Subject: Best Opening Line (cont'd) Message-ID: <8CAC13B4875C635-51C-1798@webmail-de18.sysops.aol.com> Hoy! Hoy! ????? In the beginning was the word ????? and the word?was "mayo". ????? Spread the word! ??????????????????? ...as creaming comes across this guy..... ?????????????????????????????????? truly, ?????????????????????????????????? ruud -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From isread at btinternet.com Thu Jul 31 11:11:12 2008 From: isread at btinternet.com (Paul Nightingale) Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2008 17:11:12 +0100 Subject: Atdtda28: All the same I'd be looking into, 794-796 Message-ID: <002a01c8f328$13f95d50$3bec17f0$@com> At the beginning of the section: "Seen from the ground ..." etc. Cf. the Chums' "protection lost" (793). Also cf. Miles' concluding line on 796. And then, from the long-shot to a close-up: the "sky rendezvous" (794) and changes in the Chums' relations with the Bol'shaia Igra, or at least Padzhitnoff. Given the partial/parochial readings offered earlier, the "sky-rendezvous" is characterised, initially, by some attempt at a common cause, ie Padzhitnoff's distinction between his official/unofficial roles and the "shared look of not so much disdain as sympathetic resignation to the ways of the surface-world". One might infer that this opening exchange features the two leaders, Padzhitnoff--identified at the outset--and Randolph; the "shared look" indicates a possible intimacy here. However, the dialogue passage that ensues doesn't attribute speech to any of the Chums in particular until the top of 795, when Randolph is identified as a speaker, followed in turn by Lindsay, Chick and Miles, but not Darby: the opening paragraph ("The boys wore matching sable hats and wolfskin cloaks ..." etc, 794) indicates that all are present. By way of contrast, as the scene opens out ("the Russian wireless receiver now came to life", 795) there is no indication that other Russians are present. Anyone other than Padzhitnoff remains silent, unacknowledged: the Chums collectively interact with Padzhitnoff alone. However, if the Chums insist they are now independent (of the government and corporations, if not of the banks), Padzhitnoff is still tied to the official line, a purveyor of what "they want to believe" (794). Post-Event, then: "Returning from the taiga, the crew of Inconvenience found the Earth they thought they knew changed now in unpredictable ways ..." etc (795). Yet, if this is some kind of modernist version of progress, the environment transformed ("steel within cleared rights-of-way below shining as river-courses once had"; then, the section ending on 796 with "quotidian light" superseded by "an earthbound constellation of red and green running-lights" and the irony of Miles' concluding comment), there is an echo of their descent to Chicago on 10: "As they came in low over the Stockyards, the smell found them ..." etc, "tall smokestacks unceasingly vomiting black grease smoke". Here: "Industrial smoke ... climbed the sky ..." etc (795, with or without correct punctuation). From "[h]uge modern cities" to the paragraph ending "without a living creature in sight" (795-796); and then, finally, as indicated, nothing but the "earthbound constellation of red and green running-lights" (796). If the post-Event Siberian landscape recalls Chicago, the Event's impact echoing that of capitalist rationalisation, so does the paragraph beginning on 796. On 14, the gathering of airships: "... the Midwestern summer evening whose fading light they were most of them too busy quite to catch the melancholy of", down to "... the evening was thus atwitter, like the trees of many a street in the city nearby, with aviatory pleasantries". Here, the absence of "migratory European species" (795), a disruption of the natural cycle. Then, Ch5 begins by pointing out that the Chicago setting offers the Inconvenience a perfect disguise: it "would fit right in" etc (36). Here, the Chums' cry of independence is perhaps undermined, "approach[ing] the fringes of a great aerial flotilla" (796), again unpopulated, "immense and crewless". Business as usual, it seems. From markekohut at yahoo.com Thu Jul 31 12:01:03 2008 From: markekohut at yahoo.com (Mark Kohut) Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2008 10:01:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: AtD (28) All the same I'd be looking into, p.794-796 Message-ID: <211373.9252.qm@web38406.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Paul Nightingale wrote: If the post-Event Siberian landscape recalls Chicago, the Event's impact echoing that of capitalist rationalisation, so does the paragraph beginning on 796. On 14, the gathering of airships: "... the Midwestern summer evening whose fading light they were most of them too busy quite to catch the melancholy of", down to "... the evening was thus atwitter, like the trees of many a street in the city nearby, with aviatory pleasantries". Here, the absence of "migratory European species" (795), a disruption of the natural cycle. Then, Ch5 begins by pointing out that the Chicago setting offers the Inconvenience a perfect disguise: it "would fit right in" etc (36). Here, the Chums' cry of independence is perhaps undermined, "approach[ing] the fringes of a great aerial flotilla" (796), again unpopulated, "immense and crewless". Business as usual, it seems. The Chums' new Organization has them working and still missing the light of the day, the twitter of birds, etc.....effect of modernity? Weber's concept of modern industrial rationalization, besides the loss of magic and institutionalization of charisma, has lots of analysis of efficiency and certain positive results, I gather. (I hardly know----maybe one ofour p-listers who does can clarify. [Everything I know I learned from wikipedia, will be my late-life memoir]) Anyway, this episode lead my reflections in that direction. And toward more understanding of the ending, maybe? From typewrighter at gmail.com Thu Jul 31 12:26:53 2008 From: typewrighter at gmail.com (Joe Wright) Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2008 13:26:53 -0400 Subject: what to read next that isn't pynchon In-Reply-To: <380-2200872292105439@M2W025.mail2web.com> References: <380-2200872292105439@M2W025.mail2web.com> Message-ID: <41190f9d0807311026k65d5c584o751ffdcd6ee1dcfe@mail.gmail.com> I've been wanting to read Hugo's Toilers of the Sea after some glowing reviews from friends, just throwing it out there. -- Joe On Tue, Jul 29, 2008 at 5:00 PM, grladams at teleport.com < grladams at teleport.com> wrote: > Thomas Mann's "Magic Mountain" is in a new English translation, (not > new-new but still new) that's supposed to be much better to read. I'd be up > for that. I've always wanted to read the Odyssey but wondered if anyone on > this list had a favorite English edition? > > The Odyssey / Homer ; translated by Edward McCrorie, with an introduction > and notes by Richard P. Martin; Johns Hopkins 2004 > Odyssey / Homer ; translated by Lombardo, Stanley, 1943- ; introduction by > Sheila Murnaghan. > The Odyssey / Homer ; translated by Robert Fitzgerald 1910-; introduction > by D.S. Carne-Ross. > The Odyssey / Homer ; translated by Robert Fagles ; introduction and notes > by Bernard Knox. Note: "This [pbk.] edition contains minor revisions of the > text"--P. 496. > The odyssey / translated by Hammond, Martin, 1944- ; with an introduction > by Jasper Griffin. > The odyssey of Homer / translated by George Herbert Palmer 1842-1933.. > and many others I'm sure > Jill > > Original Message: > ----------------- > From: robinlandseadel at comcast.net > Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2008 11:45:12 +0000 > To: pynchon-l at waste.org (P-list) > Subject: RE: what to read next that isn't pynchon > > > "Henry" : > Big Book: Isn't there a comparatively recent translation of > War and Peace that's supposed to be top drawer? > Anyone read it yet? > > Anthony Briggs for Viking Press: > > http://www.amazon.com/War-Peace-Leo-Tolstoy/dp/067003469X > > I bought my copy two years back, but between Proust & Pynchon, > my eyeballs are in search of shorter, more digestable works. Not to > mention this mounting pile of metaphysical texts constantly demanding > my attention. Evola on Heremetics is proving to be quite the education: > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julius_Evola > > In addition to W & P, there are two early 20th century masterworks > that seem to apply—Hesse's "The Glass Bead Game" and Thomas > Mann's "Magic Mountain." > > But I suspect the "open sesame" will be: > > http://tinyurl.com/5vsju9 > > http://www.hermeticgoldendawn.org/Documents/Bios/regardie.htm > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > mail2web - Check your email from the web at > http://link.mail2web.com/mail2web > > > > -- "There is no salvation in becoming adapted to a world which is crazy." -- Henry Miller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From markekohut at yahoo.com Thu Jul 31 13:11:47 2008 From: markekohut at yahoo.com (Mark Kohut) Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2008 11:11:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Follow-up: AtD (37) p.1057 Discussion alert! Major meaning section, ?? thinks Host Message-ID: <648138.62403.qm@web38406.mail.mud.yahoo.com> As host this week, I get to synthesize--or choose buffet-style-- all the truths the responders found in this section. I think we had great words from all, any of which might offer more to riff on, insightfully, than mine below. Lew. Presbyterian, i.e. a Protestant, a Puritan descendant from the "Errand into the Wilderness". From the Western Christian tradition who felt guilty of something unnamed when we first met him. I'd vote for MB's Original Sin as a very possible TRP meaning here. Lew works for a detective agancy that is--or is like, can't quite remember---the Pinkerton one in history. Which worked for the Establishment to bust unions, attack strikers. Webb's fellow men. Lew is complicit. But Lew is not a bad guy, he solves real crimes, goes with the flow, is liked, maybe is a stand-in for the writer-figure in AtD. In Pynchon's worldview. Lew realizes that the motley crew at the party are like all the folk he has chased down over the years. Those who have been scarred and survived some kind of dynamiting in their lives. (Sorta) Preterites, I have argued, working in the day of the new America as we all have to as best as they can. Lew suddenly realizes his 'whole life' has been a crime. See Original Sin, see Lew's recognition of his complicity. His new 'self-clarity' is a mortal sin. Perhaps, as Ian reminds thru Jung, whom we know OBA has read, Lew realizes 'the nature of human nature", his human nature with this awareness of 'mortal sin'? Lew feels a Puritan-like Damnation, an inevitable 'Sinner in the Hands of an Angry God?". But he was dynamited out of such damnation? Laura: such self-knowledge led him to a zen-like awareness/acceptance of 'things as they are', called "grace" when it happened earlier. I second all LK's remarks around Pynchon's meaning of 'grace' in AtD vs. established religious/Biblical, etc. meanings. THOSE are the traditional Protestant/Puritan meanings that Lew was "dynamited' out of. We have to follow TRPs 'grace' within AtD to get grace anew, I say. (Another speculative aside: TRP might be suggesting that the Western Christian Puritanical tradition LEADS ultimately to dynamiting?. War thru terrorism? Or, maybe Webb's dynamiting ultimately leads to such......... "grace"????) More graceless notes of an overly analytical, self-clarity kind coming on "grace", but I want Robin to take us there, to the resonant end of AtD, before I riff more. Thanks All. I think we got somewhere in understanding, don't you? I have a few more posts for this section then "Rue De Depart". --- On Tue, 7/29/08, Mark Kohut wrote: > From: Mark Kohut > Subject: AtD (37) p.1057 Discussion alert! Major meaning section, ?? thinks Host > To: "pynchon -l" > Date: Tuesday, July 29, 2008, 4:50 PM > Lew Basnight, detective, a book-length thread of meanings in > AtD has a revelation........ > > What does it mean? > > Who are all these people Lew is interacting with at > Carefree Court(!); a crowd even he, old L.A. hand, finds > hard to "read"? Just a Hollywood crowd? or as > broad a crossection of humanity as America was > becoming--lotsa immmigrants in Hollywood---working daily in > the 'new America' of 'mediated reality', not > hard labor? > > The flush, energetic, wide-open [much anti-Puritanism, say > some historians, flapper and booze 1920s? Can we see the > whole crooked timber of humanity'--Kant--at this > gathering? ; "the whole stock and joint company" > --[Ishmael in Moby Dick]--living working in the daylit > fiction that is America? > > Lew "seeing the great point and in the 'same > instant' "recognizing the ongoing crime that had > been his own life"....."Self-clarity" > .........."a mortal sin"........???? > > WTF? > > Okay, pretty important revelation to understand Lew and > more of AtD, yes? Why is such self-clarity a mortal sin? [Am > I reading that right?]...."mortal sin" is a > concept from the Western Christian tradition mostly. Shows > Lew's religion in his upbringing [he is Presbyterian]. A > mortal sin is one that totally cuts one off from God, goes > the tradition. How could this 'self-clarity' totally > cut him off from his God?....A revelation that his whole > life had been 'an ongoing crime"...not acts he > committed but his whole life. ?? > > Trying to catch this ragtag assembly of humanity is the > ongoing crime? This some W.A.S.T.E.-like motley group of > human beings, 'displaying scars and tattoos, etc." > all 'having survived some calamity" ?? > > Or is Lew 'unreliable' in his reflections here? > > So, once Lew recognized that it was a 'crime' to > chase the preterites, as it were, then he is no longer on > the side of the Elect? No longer a believer in the > Church's/Society's way of judging, so his > 'mortal sin' is to not believe.? > (THAT cuts one off from one's Christian God while one > is in that state, fer sure)..... > > It is this that got him unambiguously dynamited into his > new life. ??? Comments sought, please. > > I have other thoughts which I will spare for now in order > to open the discussion against my words above.... From scuffling at gmail.com Thu Jul 31 13:15:54 2008 From: scuffling at gmail.com (Ian (Hank Kimble) Scuffling) Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2008 14:15:54 -0400 Subject: what to read next that isn't pynchon In-Reply-To: <41190f9d0807311026k65d5c584o751ffdcd6ee1dcfe@mail.gmail.com> References: <380-2200872292105439@M2W025.mail2web.com> <41190f9d0807311026k65d5c584o751ffdcd6ee1dcfe@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Kinda like Illiad vs. Oddysey, Inferno vs. Paradiso... New Testament, anyone? I've never read but a book or so of it. Is it really as bad as they say? Greek to me! Codex Sinaiticus, http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/europe/07/24/online.bible/ -- AsB4, Henry Mu http://my.barackobama.com/page/community/blog/henrymu From markekohut at yahoo.com Thu Jul 31 13:36:23 2008 From: markekohut at yahoo.com (Mark Kohut) Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2008 11:36:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Fw: Re: what to read next that isn't pynchon Message-ID: <667335.33958.qm@web38405.mail.mud.yahoo.com> > nah, Old Testament......the original Against the > Day............. > who among us has read it all?...most of it? > > > --- On Thu, 7/31/08, Ian (Hank Kimble) Scuffling > wrote: > > > From: Ian (Hank Kimble) Scuffling > > > Subject: Re: what to read next that isn't pynchon > > To: "Pynchon Liste" > > > Date: Thursday, July 31, 2008, 2:15 PM > > Kinda like Illiad vs. Oddysey, Inferno vs. Paradiso... > New > > Testament, > > anyone? I've never read but a book or so of it. > Is it > > really as bad > > as they say? Greek to me! > > > > Codex Sinaiticus, > > > http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/europe/07/24/online.bible/ > > > > -- > > AsB4, > > > > Henry Mu > > http://my.barackobama.com/page/community/blog/henrymu From krafftjm at muohio.edu Thu Jul 31 14:04:47 2008 From: krafftjm at muohio.edu (Krafft, John M.) Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2008 15:04:47 -0400 Subject: Good first lines In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: I promise I'll stop with this one, but taking my cue from otto, here's a terrific story opening. It's worth the price of admission just to get to the first comma, but here's the whole first paragraph: Back in the days when everyone was old and stupid or young and foolish and me and Sugar were the only ones just right, this lady moved on our block with nappy hair and proper speech and no makeup. And quite naturally we laughed at her, laughed the way we did at the junk man who went about his business like he was some big-time president and his sorry-ass horse his secretary. And we kinda hated her too, hated the way we did the winos who cluttered up our parks and pissed on our handball walls and stank up our hallways and stairs so you couldn't halfway play hide-and-seek without a goddamn gas mask. Miss Moore was her name. The only woman on the block with no first name. And she was black as hell, cept for her feet,--which were fish-white and spooky. And she was always planning these boring-ass things for us to do, us being my cousin, mostly, who lived on the block cause we all moved North the same time and to the same apartment then spread out gradual to breathe. And our parents would yank our heads into some kinda shape and crisp up our clothes so we'd be presentable for travel with Miss Moore, who always looked like she was going to church, though she never did. Which is just one of the things the grownups talked about when they talked behind her back like a dog. But when she came calling with some sachet she'd sewed up or some gingerbread she'd made or some book, why then they'd all be too embarrassed to turn her down and we'd get handed over all spruced up. She'd been to college and said it was only right that she should take responsibility for the young ones' education, and she not even related by marriage or blood. So they'd go for it. Specially Aunt Gretchen. She was the main gofer in the family. You got some ole dumb shit foolishness you want somebody to go for, you send for Aunt Gretchen. She been screwed into the go-along for so long, it's a blood-deep natural thing with her. Which is how she got saddled with me and Sugar and Junior in the first place while our mothers were in a la-de-da! apartme nt up the block having a good ole time. --Toni Cade Bambara, "The Lesson" (1972) -- John M. Krafft / English Miami University–Hamilton / 1601 University Blvd. / Hamilton, OH 45011-3399 Tel: 513.785.3031 or 513.868.2330 Fax: 513.785.3145 E-mail: krafftjm at muohio.edu WWW: http://www.ham.muohio.edu/~krafftjm or http://PynchonNotes.org From markekohut at yahoo.com Thu Jul 31 18:09:48 2008 From: markekohut at yahoo.com (Mark Kohut) Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2008 16:09:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: AtD (37) p.1059 "wide-awake hat", Virgil?, "it had not happened yet" Message-ID: <97639.69303.qm@web38403.mail.mud.yahoo.com> P 1058 "wide-brim black hat"...these 'wide-awake hats' always strike me as resting on the hats of the generally enlightened---or that guy in Big Lebowski....Virgil is linked with the ancient wise-man personage of the hermit Tarot card..... Virgil is Jardine's father. is the Aeneid relevant here? "It proclaimed the Imperial mission of the Roman Empire, while at the same time pitying Rome's victims and feeling their grief. Aeneas was considered to exemplify virtue and pietas (roughly translated as "piety", though the word is far more complex and has a sense of being duty-bound and respectful of divine will, family and homeland). Nevertheless, Aeneas struggles between doing what he wants as a man, and doing what he must as a virtuous hero. In the view of some modern critics, Aeneas' inner turmoil and shortcomings make him a more realistic character than the heroes of Homeric poetry, such as Odysseus. Later views of Virgil Even as the Roman empire collapsed, literate men acknowledged that the Christianized Virgil was a master poet. Gregory of Tours read Virgil, whom he quotes in several places, along with some other Latin poets, though he cautions that "we ought not to relate their lying fables, lest we fall under sentence of eternal death". The Aeneid remained the central Latin literary text of the Middle Ages and retained its status as the grand epic of the Latin peoples, and of those who considered themselves to be of Roman provenance, such as the English. It also held religious importance as it describes the founding of the Holy City. Virgil was made palatable for his Christian audience also through a belief in his prophecy of Christ in his Fourth Eclogue." More self-justifying anarchist bombing talk THEN it gets really weird. Lew sees Jardine Maraca "passing so smoothly among the guests"...BUT he realizes, "not only might Jardine be dead but also that it had not happened yet. " OK, WTF???/ Where are we in Time? What is this "alternate reality" yet to happen?....in which the smooth Jardine is ALREADY dead? Why is Lew so accepting of this...........surreal............situation? Because he "accepts things as they are"? p 256---what they saw "now" in the sights was in fact what did not yet exist but what would only be a few seconds from "now" .... What's this all about?.... From kelber at mindspring.com Thu Jul 31 18:36:32 2008 From: kelber at mindspring.com (kelber at mindspring.com) Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2008 19:36:32 -0400 (EDT) Subject: NP Night Watch (2004 film) Message-ID: <9395790.1217547393089.JavaMail.root@elwamui-wigeon.atl.sa.earthlink.net> I agree. Haven't seen the sequel, Day Watch. Laura -----Original Message----- >From: Otto >Sent: Jul 31, 2008 9:08 AM >To: Pynchon Liste >Subject: NP Night Watch (2004 film) > >Night Watch (2004 film) >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Night_Watch_(2004_film) > >http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/W%C3%A4chter_der_Nacht_%E2%80%93_Nochnoi_Dozor > >I've seen the movie recently and I think it's quite well done. From igrlivingston at gmail.com Thu Jul 31 20:39:08 2008 From: igrlivingston at gmail.com (Ian Livingston) Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2008 18:39:08 -0700 Subject: Fw: Re: what to read next that isn't pynchon In-Reply-To: <667335.33958.qm@web38405.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <667335.33958.qm@web38405.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <95cde1ee0807311839p483043b7w66473a6cd00ad043@mail.gmail.com> Well, actually, I'm a preacher's kid. I read it all. Don't quiz me, though. As I recollect it's a pretty story with some exciting hijinks from guys who talk funny and see things that aren't there. But if you want some edifying literature, I'd have to suggest the *Phaedrus*, by Plato. On Thu, Jul 31, 2008 at 11:36 AM, Mark Kohut wrote: > > > nah, Old Testament......the original Against the > > Day............. > > who among us has read it all?...most of it? > > > > > > --- On Thu, 7/31/08, Ian (Hank Kimble) Scuffling > > wrote: > > > > > From: Ian (Hank Kimble) Scuffling > > > > > Subject: Re: what to read next that isn't pynchon > > > To: "Pynchon Liste" > > > > > Date: Thursday, July 31, 2008, 2:15 PM > > > Kinda like Illiad vs. Oddysey, Inferno vs. Paradiso... > > New > > > Testament, > > > anyone? I've never read but a book or so of it. > > Is it > > > really as bad > > > as they say? Greek to me! > > > > > > Codex Sinaiticus, > > > > > http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/europe/07/24/online.bible/ > > > > > > -- > > > AsB4, > > > > > > Henry Mu > > > http://my.barackobama.com/page/community/blog/henrymu > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From david.casseres at gmail.com Thu Jul 31 21:58:20 2008 From: david.casseres at gmail.com (David Casseres) Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2008 19:58:20 -0700 Subject: what to read next that isn't pynchon In-Reply-To: <8CABFDC82C60345-CE0-87C@webmail-da08.sysops.aol.com> References: <39a39c310807282303j23e79eb6ka7282cf95893bccb@mail.gmail.com> <8CABFDC82C60345-CE0-87C@webmail-da08.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <57B955E6-E8B3-42FA-B6A1-3C5949FA566C@gmail.com> Or Jorge Amado, The Tent of Miracles. His masterpiece. On Jul 29, 2008, at 2:52 PM, MalignD at aol.com wrote: > Try Gaddis. A Frolic of His Own or JR. > > Or Terry Southern. Flash and Filigree, for instance. > > Or Tom McGuane, if you've never read him. > > Or Dog of the South by Charles Portis. > > Or about anything by Thomas Berger. Who Is Teddy Villanova? > > Or Jorge Amado, Home is the Sailor. > > Or the Beckett trilogy. Or Murphy. > > Or Flann O'Brien. > > I also just re-read Him With His Foot In His Mouth, a novella and > stories by Saul Bellow. It's pretty amazing. His paragraphs go > effortlessly from high to low, from slang to erudition, from wiseass > to high serious. Really great stuff. Or virtually any of his > novels. Try Humboldt's Gift. > > I could do this all day ... > > > -----Original Message----- > From: JD > To: pynchon -l > Sent: Tue, 29 Jul 2008 2:03 am > Subject: what to read next that isn't pynchon > > Please advise. Handbook of Drawing is still not in English. God > damnit. > > Darkmans wa s terrible. > > Terrible. > > I'm sorry. > > Vollmann sniffs his own ass so hard I can hear it from here. At > least he tries. Still smells like shit. > > Omega Minor was fun, and worthwhile. > > Summer in Termuren(sp?) was worthwhile. But old. > > I subscribe to One Store because I like their format. It's all > horrible. One of their contributors had a national endowment of the > arts grant and a gugenheim grant and reading her bullshit made me > want to stab myself in the eye. Good on her being able to game the > system, but dear lord. > > New authors, please. > The Famous, the Infamous, the Lame - in your browser. Get the TMZ > Toolbar Now! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From markekohut at yahoo.com Tue Jul 1 06:49:12 2008 From: markekohut at yahoo.com (Mark Kohut) Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2008 04:49:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: NP "The morning of June 27th was clear and sunny..." In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <578717.32440.qm@web38403.mail.mud.yahoo.com> I have learned from the book Something for Nothing that a society known as the Frisians did carry out a human sacrifice via lottery.............. --- On Wed, 6/25/08, Tara Brady wrote: From: Tara Brady Subject: NP "The morning of June 27th was clear and sunny..." To: "Pynchlist" Date: Wednesday, June 25, 2008, 4:46 PM Mind the rocks. http://www.classicshorts.com/stories/lotry.html -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From markekohut at yahoo.com Tue Jul 1 06:51:22 2008 From: markekohut at yahoo.com (Mark Kohut) Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2008 04:51:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: NP: James Joyce, The Music Message-ID: <500926.12487.qm@web38402.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- On Tue, 7/1/08, Mark Kohut wrote: From: Mark Kohut Subject: Fwd: [ArtsJournal: Daily Arts News] Recommendation: James Joyce, The Music To: "Peter Cleland" , "Brad Andrews" , markekohut at yahoo.com Date: Tuesday, July 1, 2008, 7:21 AM ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Date: Tue, Jul 1, 2008 at 7:18 AM Subject: [ArtsJournal: Daily Arts News] Recommendation: James Joyce, The Music To: mark.kohut at gmail.com mkohut at hotmail.com has sent you a link! Title: James Joyce, The Music Link: http://www.artsjournal.com/artsjournal1/2008/06/james_joyce_the.shtml -- Mark Kohut (& Associates) 63 Western Ave. Jersey City, NJ 07307 646-519-1956 201-795-9388 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From daniel.julius at gmail.com Tue Jul 1 07:33:28 2008 From: daniel.julius at gmail.com (Daniel Julius) Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2008 07:33:28 -0500 Subject: NP "The morning of June 27th was clear and sunny..." In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thank you! Will brighten up my free-ish afternoon On Wed, Jun 25, 2008 at 3:46 PM, Tara Brady wrote: > > Mind the rocks. > > http://www.classicshorts.com/stories/lotry.html > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From scuffling at gmail.com Tue Jul 1 09:45:21 2008 From: scuffling at gmail.com (Henry) Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2008 10:45:21 -0400 Subject: Sundogs References: <000d01c8d95a$3439b3e0$9cad1ba0$@com> <435769.69068.qm@web38406.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <79e49fac0806301504w45088d53k1730b13e357b7c9d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <002501c8db89$1937a9e0$4ba6fda0$@com> Sundog on the Tundra: http://tinyurl.com/57oc99 A solar phenomenon known as a sundog arcs over the tundra in Churchill, Manitoba, Canada. Sundogs are fairly common occurrences in the Arctic and Antarctic. They form when the sun is near the horizon and ice crystals high in the sky line up in a way that bends the solar rays like a prism HENRY MU Information, Media, and Technology Consultant http://my.barackobama.com/page/event/detail/4gddt From richard.romeo at gmail.com Tue Jul 1 10:23:24 2008 From: richard.romeo at gmail.com (rich) Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2008 11:23:24 -0400 Subject: NP "The morning of June 27th was clear and sunny..." In-Reply-To: <578717.32440.qm@web38403.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <578717.32440.qm@web38403.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <830c13f40807010823v22d2a506md634cbe50986d62@mail.gmail.com> Something for Nothing...hmm...song from that R.U.S.H. rich On Tue, Jul 1, 2008 at 7:49 AM, Mark Kohut wrote: > I have learned from the book Something for Nothing that a society known as > the Frisians > > did carry out a human sacrifice via lottery.............. > > --- On Wed, 6/25/08, Tara Brady wrote: > > From: Tara Brady > Subject: NP "The morning of June 27th was clear and sunny..." > To: "Pynchlist" > Date: Wednesday, June 25, 2008, 4:46 PM > > > Mind the rocks. > > http://www.classicshorts.com/stories/lotry.html > > > > > > From scuffling at gmail.com Tue Jul 1 16:55:23 2008 From: scuffling at gmail.com (Henry) Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2008 17:55:23 -0400 Subject: NP(R) You Must Read This Message-ID: <000001c8dbc5$2b1759d0$81460d70$@com> You Must Read This http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5432412 Hilter's Coming; Time for Cocktails and Gossip July 1, 2008 · Jonathan Raban remembers his first encounter with the aging, aimless socialites of Evelyn Waugh's Put Out More Flags, a novel of cocktails, clandestine affairs and the looming threat of World War II. An Unflinching, 'Street' View of the American Dream by Gretchen Holbrook Gerzina June 16, 2008 · Twenty years ago, author and literature professor Gretchen Holbrook Gerzina was looking for an undiscovered classic for her African-American-fiction class. What she found was Ann Petry's The Street, and she's been teaching it ever since. 'Golden Memories' of Father-Daughter Bonding by Jen Lancaster June 15, 2008 · As a teenager, the scariest person in Jen Lancaster's life wasn't Freddie Krueger or Michael Myers, but Ronald Lancaster, her father — until the night they laughed themselves silly, courtesy of Jean Shepherd. Pain, Betrayal and Love in Old Russia by Ursula Le Guin June 6, 2008 · Doctor Zhivago offers a day-by-day portrait of the lives of ordinary Russians through the Revolution of 1917. Nearly 40 years after reading it for the first time, Ursula Le Guin credits Boris Pasternak's sweeping epic for making her the novelist she is today. A Slow, Glorious Trip Down the Mississippi by Tony Horwitz May 23, 2008 · Tony Horwitz revels in the meandering adventures and wry observations of Old Glory, Jonathan Raban's story of floating "like a piece of human driftwood" through the heart of America. Belly Laughs — and Wampas — in 'Expertise' by Mary Roach May 14, 2008 · Real out-loud laughter may be uncommon among adults, says Mary Roach, but she cracked up upon cracking open John Hodgman's The Areas of My Expertise. Even Hodgman's list of "Jokes That Have Never Produced Laughter" proved funny. Taking Comfort in a 'Four-Story' Escape by Marisa de los Santos May 5, 2008 · Author Marisa de los Santos recalls the worries of her childhood, and the escape she found in The Four-Story Mistake, Elizabeth Enright's tale of four siblings living with their father and a housekeeper in a big, rambling house in the country. The Disquieting Resonance of 'The Quiet American' by Pico Iyer April 21, 2008 · Can we learn from our past mistakes? Pico Iyer finds modern meaning in Graham Greene's novel about a naive American who arrives in a foreign place full of ideas about democracy, and how he can teach an ancient culture a better, "American" way of doing things. History Made Real in 'April Morning' by Sally Gunning April 18, 2008 · On April 19, 1775, a shot rang out on Lexington Green and the Revolutionary War began. Historical novelist Sally Gunning remembers the first time she read April Morning, Howard Fast's fictional account of the day, and the lasting impression the book had on her. Finding a Familiar Loneliness in 'The Yearling' by Lois Lowry April 10, 2008 · Lois Lowry was 8 years old when she first encountered the loneliness and desperate poverty of the Baxter family in Marjorie Kinnan Rawlings' book, The Yearling. Brutality and Redemption in 'Sacred Hunger' by Ethan Canin March 24, 2008 · Sacred Hunger, a brutal portrait of human ruthlessness and redemption set on an 18th century slaving ship, inspired Ethan Canin to expand his ambitions as a writer. In 'Dracula,' a Metaphor for Faith and Rebirth by John Marks March 21, 2008 · Though his faith has waned over the years, author John Marks finds a metaphor for his own struggle with belief in the shadowy, invisible world of Bram Stoker's Dracula. Finding Balance and Pleasure in 'The House of Mirth' by Mireille Guiliano March 11, 2008 · As a young woman living in Paris in 1968, author Mireille Guiliano found friendship — and frustration — in Lily Bart, Edith Wharton's naïve, self-interested heroine who struggles to make decisions that are in her self-interest. Darkness and Light in 'The Secret Garden' by Sloane Crosley February 20, 2008 · Sloane Crosley loves winter, which may explain her particular affection for the mysterious, hidden garden in Frances Hodgson Burnett's dark children's classic. 'Brooklyn' Renders an Imperfect World, Perfectly by Peggy Orenstein February 18, 2008 · As a girl, Peggy Orenstein may have spent her summers in Wisconsin, but her heart was often farther east. She recounts her love for Betty Smith's A Tree Grows in Brooklyn and its hard, touching lessons about the difference between what is right and what is true. HENRY MU Information, Media, and Technology Consultant http://my.barackobama.com/page/community/blog_rss/henrymu/ From isread at btinternet.com Tue Jul 1 23:02:00 2008 From: isread at btinternet.com (Paul Nightingale) Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2008 05:02:00 +0100 Subject: Atdtda28: Not much, 779 Message-ID: <000001c8dbf8$611ad560$23508020$@com> A brief statement that says both 'everything' and 'nothing'. Nothing escapes the "heavenwide blast", but the sentence itself, taken in isolation, escapes understanding beyond the most literal. The words have denotative power in that they are self-referential; until we read on, however, we're none the wiser. The previous chapter ended where it began, with "the perfect clarity" (768), subsequently "the purity, the fierce, shining purity" (778) of Baikal; and there is a nod towards "what was nearly upon them". The current chapter's opening sentence might send us back to the previous page, where the fast-forward of the final sentence ("... as he would understand later") looks to a point in time beyond the narrative present. Unless and until there comes an edition that prints 55.1 on a page by itself, it must be difficult to read the opening sentence without simultaneously glancing down the page to the precision of the opening to 55.2, where the reader can begin to "understand later". From isread at btinternet.com Tue Jul 1 23:18:58 2008 From: isread at btinternet.com (Paul Nightingale) Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2008 05:18:58 +0100 Subject: Atdtda28: Society and syntax, 779-780 Message-ID: <000101c8dbfa$c029f020$407dd060$@com> If indeed 55.1 can be considered opaque, 55.2 begins with the precision of a date: without, at this time, reading further ahead, we might be able to make sense of the "heavenwide blast". An enlightenment (cap E?) of sorts. The first paragraph begins with Padzhitnoff ("working ... as a contract employee") before making it clear that the reference includes his crew as well; and then we return to Padzhitnoff's plans for the masonry (such references always invoking Ch1's "lavatorial assaults" on 5; and further down the page on 779 we do come to Heaven's mandate). Subsequently, we might suppose that "the cringers and climbers at all levels of Razvedka" are described from Padzhitnoff's pov, all of which serves as a reminder that, in the spy game, there are footsoldiers and bloody bureaucrats. The previous chapter ended with faceless men in Whitehall and (the possibility of) good money (not in fact confirmed by Prance, although his "laughter ... seemed to go on for an unnaturally long time", 778); here, Padzhitnoff (and crew) are being paid "at the exorbitant end of spy-budget outlays" (779), even if "their spiritual ease" has been left unsatisfied. The first paragraph contains a lengthy, somewhat unruly, not always grammatically sound, sentence, one that draws attention to itself (as indeed did the heavenwide blast), clause following clause, connections being made, however 'clumsily', ie arbitrarily, something akin to a jump-cut, perhaps? Or, as with "stumbl[ing] blindly" (780), the loss of (another kind of) order? The opening ("Accordingly the great ship ...", 779) links together "captain and crew" as one, denying any other possible meaning to the captain's name. The collective weight gain runs into the masonry bombs, and the need for ballast sees the crew identified in its entirety with the airship, hence "weight control" is part and parcel of aeronautics and a nod in the direction of scientific management. The loss of individuality here leads to the new paragraph's reference to "cringers and climbers" etc, God's abandonment of Russia perhaps a view shared by Padzhitnoff (and crew), perhaps not. Heaven's mandate, moreover, means a loss of certainty: reference to "any peasant's struggle with the day" (top of 780) invokes a social order in stark contrast to the rational organisation that, supposedly, characterises bureaucracy (ie 'closed' rather than 'open', the latter featuring "nouveau riche fur traders", 779). Moreover, if we accept that Padzhitnoff & co stand in for the Chums, then we might recall the way the opening chapters established the Chums in terms of hierarchy and bureaucracy). From rfiero at gmail.com Wed Jul 2 00:21:11 2008 From: rfiero at gmail.com (Richard Fiero) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2008 21:21:11 -0800 Subject: 100 Years Since Tunguska Message-ID: <486b0239.1e068e0a.4c94.ffff895d@mx.google.com> http://www.fas.org/blog/secrecy/2008/06/tunguska.html Monday, June 30 marks the 100th anniversary of the Tunguska incident in 1908, in which a meteor or comet fragment entered the atmosphere over Tunguska in Siberia producing an enormous explosion. We know that a rather massive body flew into the atmosphere of our planet, said Boris Shustov of the Russian Academy of Sciences. It measured 40 to 60 meters in diameter. Clearly, it did not consist of iron, otherwise it would have certainly reached the earth. The body decelerated in the atmosphere, the deceleration being very abrupt, so the whole energy of this body flying with a velocity of more than 20 meters per second [probably should be: kilometers per second] was released, which resulted in a mid-air explosion, very similar to a thermonuclear blast, he told Tass news agency yesterday. . . . Impacts such as the Tunguska incident are thought to occur about once in one hundred years based on the density of impact craters on the Moon, according to a White Paper on Planetary Defense attached to the 1994 U.S. Air Force report Spacecast 2020. A 2007 NASA summary report to Congress on planetary defense is here [pdf]. A longer account is here [pdf]. From markekohut at yahoo.com Wed Jul 2 05:36:24 2008 From: markekohut at yahoo.com (Mark Kohut) Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2008 03:36:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Atdtda28: Society and syntax, 779-780 In-Reply-To: <000101c8dbfa$c029f020$407dd060$@com> Message-ID: <969534.30047.qm@web38407.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Re Russia and America......might suggest many observers said that in the daily manifestation, the hierarchies were alike, despite their opposing social foundations--in the Cold War anyway.... --- On Wed, 7/2/08, Paul Nightingale wrote: From: Paul Nightingale Subject: Atdtda28: Society and syntax, 779-780 To: pynchon-l at waste.org Date: Wednesday, July 2, 2008, 12:18 AM If indeed 55.1 can be considered opaque, 55.2 begins with the precision of a date: without, at this time, reading further ahead, we might be able to make sense of the "heavenwide blast". An enlightenment (cap E?) of sorts. The first paragraph begins with Padzhitnoff ("working ... as a contract employee") before making it clear that the reference includes his crew as well; and then we return to Padzhitnoff's plans for the masonry (such references always invoking Ch1's "lavatorial assaults" on 5; and further down the page on 779 we do come to Heaven's mandate). Subsequently, we might suppose that "the cringers and climbers at all levels of Razvedka" are described from Padzhitnoff's pov, all of which serves as a reminder that, in the spy game, there are footsoldiers and bloody bureaucrats. The previous chapter ended with faceless men in Whitehall and (the possibility of) good money (not in fact confirmed by Prance, although his "laughter ... seemed to go on for an unnaturally long time", 778); here, Padzhitnoff (and crew) are being paid "at the exorbitant end of spy-budget outlays" (779), even if "their spiritual ease" has been left unsatisfied. The first paragraph contains a lengthy, somewhat unruly, not always grammatically sound, sentence, one that draws attention to itself (as indeed did the heavenwide blast), clause following clause, connections being made, however 'clumsily', ie arbitrarily, something akin to a jump-cut, perhaps? Or, as with "stumbl[ing] blindly" (780), the loss of (another kind of) order? The opening ("Accordingly the great ship ...", 779) links together "captain and crew" as one, denying any other possible meaning to the captain's name. The collective weight gain runs into the masonry bombs, and the need for ballast sees the crew identified in its entirety with the airship, hence "weight control" is part and parcel of aeronautics and a nod in the direction of scientific management. The loss of individuality here leads to the new paragraph's reference to "cringers and climbers" etc, God's abandonment of Russia perhaps a view shared by Padzhitnoff (and crew), perhaps not. Heaven's mandate, moreover, means a loss of certainty: reference to "any peasant's struggle with the day" (top of 780) invokes a social order in stark contrast to the rational organisation that, supposedly, characterises bureaucracy (ie 'closed' rather than 'open', the latter featuring "nouveau riche fur traders", 779). Moreover, if we accept that Padzhitnoff & co stand in for the Chums, then we might recall the way the opening chapters established the Chums in terms of hierarchy and bureaucracy). -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From robert_mahnke at earthlink.net Wed Jul 2 08:55:33 2008 From: robert_mahnke at earthlink.net (Robert Mahnke) Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2008 09:55:33 -0400 (GMT-04:00) Subject: Pynchon in Newsweek Message-ID: <7322137.1215006934349.JavaMail.root@elwamui-polski.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Google tells me that this has something to do with Pynchon, but I can't get the page to load this morning: http://www.newsweek.com/id/44686 Maybe one of you will have better luck.... From markekohut at yahoo.com Wed Jul 2 09:25:59 2008 From: markekohut at yahoo.com (Mark Kohut) Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2008 07:25:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Pynchon in Newsweek In-Reply-To: <7322137.1215006934349.JavaMail.root@elwamui-polski.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <518554.71785.qm@web38404.mail.mud.yahoo.com> This is Part One of Newsweek's [malcolm Jones] review of AtD.....Nov 8, 2006.   I have Google alerts for certain writers and things as well.........and i was hit with many, many VERY OLD Newsweek pieces.....(there is a Google search engine story therein, but I am not Googling for it.) --- On Wed, 7/2/08, Robert Mahnke wrote: From: Robert Mahnke Subject: Pynchon in Newsweek To: pynchon-l at waste.org Date: Wednesday, July 2, 2008, 9:55 AM Google tells me that this has something to do with Pynchon, but I can't get the page to load this morning: http://www.newsweek.com/id/44686 Maybe one of you will have better luck.... -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dedalus204 at comcast.net Wed Jul 2 09:27:44 2008 From: dedalus204 at comcast.net (Tim Strzechowski) Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2008 09:27:44 -0500 Subject: Pynchon in Newsweek References: <7322137.1215006934349.JavaMail.root@elwamui-polski.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <003601c8dc4f$cbc40f10$0300a8c0@TStrzechowski> Pynchon on the Installment Plan Reading a Thomas Pynchon novel can feel like a life’s work—so this reviewer decided to respond in kind: herewith part one of a serial review of ‘Against the Day.’ By Malcolm Jones | Newsweek Web Exclusive Nov 17, 2006 Here’s my problem: I’ve now read more than 400 pages of the new Thomas Pynchon novel, “Against the Day,” and I’m not even half through. Normally I wouldn’t complain, and I certainly wouldn’t look for sympathy. Long novels come with the territory when you’re a book reviewer, and in the end, it balances out, because you read your share of short novels, too. Besides, no one’s going to give you a lick of sympathy when you get paid to read for a living, even if the book is in Urdu. OK, that’s not really my problem. The real hitch here is how to review this 1,085-page behemoth. I’ve already made enough notes on this sucker to write my own book, because this story has enough plotlines for two or three novels, and so many characters that I’ve actually begun constructing family trees. If I wait until I’m finished to write a review, I’m afraid it’s going to wind up sounding like the old Woody Allen joke about taking a speed-reading course: “I read ‘War and Peace.’ It was about Russia.” To give you a review with sufficient detail to convey a sense of the story—and because I really, really hate throwing away good research—I’ve decided that the only way I can do justice to “Against the Day” is to review it in installments. If novelists can write serially, why not reviewers? Just think of me as a sort of sherpa guide. Pynchon kicks his novel off with a big set piece at the Chicago Exposition of 1893 and focuses initially on a hardy band of boys called the Chums of Chance, who travel the globe in a hydrogen skyship named the Inconvenience. Their further exploits, we are told, are detailed elsewhere in a series of dime novels with titles such as “The Chums of Chance in Old Mexico” and “The Chums of Chance and the Evil Halfwit” (that’s the one set in Washington, D.C.). Whenever the Chums appear throughout the narrative, Pynchon resorts to an orotund language reminiscent of the turn of the last century: “Miles, with his marginal gifts of coordination, and Chick, with a want of alacrity fully as perceptible, took their stations at the control-panels of the apparatus, as Darby Suckling, meantime, went scrambling up the ratlines and shrouds of the giant ellipsoidal envelope from which the gondola depended …” and so on. The boys have touched down in Chicago for an aeronauts’ convention. The World Exposition across town is just the icing on their cake. After a few pages of fun at the fair, we get the idea: the boys embody the childlike air of innocence that attended the fair, when the whole country could still get behind the idea that technology bred progress. But this is Pynchon, so you know that this Edisonian let-there-be-light fandango will go through some weird spin cycle pretty darn quick. [...] ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert Mahnke" To: Sent: Wednesday, July 02, 2008 8:55 AM Subject: Pynchon in Newsweek > > Google tells me that this has something to do with Pynchon, but I can't > get the page to load this morning: > > http://www.newsweek.com/id/44686 > > Maybe one of you will have better luck.... > From scuffling at gmail.com Wed Jul 2 09:32:53 2008 From: scuffling at gmail.com (Henry) Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2008 10:32:53 -0400 Subject: Pynchon in Newsweek In-Reply-To: <7322137.1215006934349.JavaMail.root@elwamui-polski.atl.sa.earthlink.net> References: <7322137.1215006934349.JavaMail.root@elwamui-polski.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <005e01c8dc50$83b87f20$8b297d60$@com> Pynchon on the Installment Plan http://www.newsweek.com/id/44686 Reading a Thomas Pynchon novel can feel like a life’s work—so this reviewer decided to respond in kind: herewith part one of a serial review of ‘Against the Day.’ Malcolm Jones Newsweek Web Exclusive Updated: 3:25 PM ET Oct 15, 2007 Here’s my problem: I’ve now read more than 400 pages of the new Thomas Pynchon novel, “Against the Day,” and I’m not even half through. Normally I wouldn’t complain, and I certainly wouldn’t look for sympathy. Long novels come with the territory when you’re a book reviewer, and in the end, it balances out, because you read your share of short novels, too. Besides, no one’s going to give you a lick of sympathy when you get paid to read for a living, even if the book is in Urdu. OK, that’s not really my problem. The real hitch here is how to review this 1,085-page behemoth. I’ve already made enough notes on this sucker to write my own book, because this story has enough plotlines for two or three novels, and so many characters that I’ve actually begun constructing family trees. If I wait until I’m finished to write a review, I’m afraid it’s going to wind up sounding like the old Woody Allen joke about taking a speed-reading course: “I read ‘War and Peace.’ It was about Russia.” To give you a review with sufficient detail to convey a sense of the story—and because I really, really hate throwing away good research—I’ve decided that the only way I can do justice to “Against the Day” is to review it in installments. If novelists can write serially, why not reviewers? Just think of me as a sort of sherpa guide. Pynchon kicks his novel off with a big set piece at the Chicago Exposition of 1893 and focuses initially on a hardy band of boys called the Chums of Chance, who travel the globe in a hydrogen skyship named the Inconvenience. Their further exploits, we are told, are detailed elsewhere in a series of dime novels with titles such as “The Chums of Chance in Old Mexico” and “The Chums of Chance and the Evil Halfwit” (that’s the one set in Washington, D.C.). Whenever the Chums appear throughout the narrative, Pynchon resorts to an orotund language reminiscent of the turn of the last century: “Miles, with his marginal gifts of coordination, and Chick, with a want of alacrity fully as perceptible, took their stations at the control-panels of the apparatus, as Darby Suckling, meantime, went scrambling up the ratlines and shrouds of the giant ellipsoidal envelope from which the gondola depended …” and so on. The boys have touched down in Chicago for an aeronauts’ convention. The World Exposition across town is just the icing on their cake. After a few pages of fun at the fair, we get the idea: the boys embody the childlike air of innocence that attended the fair, when the whole country could still get behind the idea that technology bred progress. But this is Pynchon, so you know that this Edisonian let-there-be-light fandango will go through some weird spin cycle pretty darn quick. Enter Scarsdale Vibe, a tycoon on the order of Rockefeller and Morgan. Enter, come to think of it, a whole clan of Vibes: Colfax, Cragmont, Fleetwood, Wilshire, Dittany and Edwarda, née Beef, now Mrs. Vibe, with maid Vaseline in tow. As the story unfolds, Vibe and his family lurk on the edges of nearly every plot, or every plot sooner or later circles back to them. They are the dark counterweight to the Chums and anyone else of positive mien. Vibe is the sort to have a man killed and then send his son to college, not out of guilt but just to keep his enemies where he can see them. His muscle is a man named Foley Walker (best name so far in the book—more on this in a moment). It is a mark of Pynchon’s thoroughness that he gives everyone a backstory that shadows all in the present action: Walker was Vibe’s paid substitute in the Civil War. This is also the first sliver of a huge piece of the puzzle: doubles will crop up with increasing and increasingly menacing meaning. false Now, as to those names: this is the one area of the novel where Pynchon seems a little off his usual standard. No one names characters better, starting with “V.” (Pig Bodine, Bloody Chiclets), “Gravity’s Rainbow” (Tyrone Slothrop—maybe the best WASP name ever), or “Mason & Dixon” (the Rev. Wicks Cherrycoke). But in “Against the Day,” nearly all the names are a half step off, just shy of the usual standard: Webb Traverse, Heino Vanderjuice, Alonzo Meatman—it just sounds like someone trying to make up funny names. There is Chevrolette McAdoo, but so far she’s a walk-on. Maybe it gets better. My heart definitely softened when I came up the ice cream parlor called Cone Amor. By the time all these characters have appeared, the action has moved—an air balloon works wonders in the transition department—to the mine field of Colorado, the South Seas, Venice, Long Island, Iceland and the middle of the earth. That’s right: from a more or less realistic plane at the outset—if the Chums of Chance can be called realistic (well, it could happen)—the plot corkscrews with increasing regularity into the realm of fantasy, a fantasy where realism is just another voice to be heard. And all the while, things are getting darker and darker, to the point where even the Chums begin to question the authority of the faceless, nameless cabal that issues their marching orders. Will they survive the underworld beneath the Mongolian sands? Does Vibe control all? Is time travel possible? And what are we to make of the quest for Iceland Spar, a form of calcite found in Iceland? Iceland Spar is clear, and looks like a crystal but is in fact something called a cleavage fragment. It is said to have rhombohedral cleavage, meaning that each of its faces is a rhombus, a warped rectangle with no squared corners. The importance of Iceland Spar to this novel is that things seen through it appear doubled. And I can’t tell how it’s going to play out, but doubling is going to be an important theme down the road in this story. At this point, I think I have most of the main story lines and their respective characters straight in my head. There are the Chums, the Vibes, the Colorado mining clan of Traverses, the itinerant photographer Merle Rideout and daughter, Dahlia. This cast combines, recombines, splinters, reforms. Their personal dramas are played out against the struggles of the time: capital v. labor, the gropings of science toward quantum physics, the stirrings of the movie industry and the furtive birth of jazz. But just when I thought I was getting a grip on things, I came across a chapter in which the Chums of Chance run into Merle Rideout at Candlebrow University … except that the boys were at Candlebrow a chapter or two before, and then went off to Asia, so … I think either I have lost the thread or there is some sort of as yet unannounced time travel going on. What I said about the sherpa—that still stands. I’ll do as much of the heavy lifting here as I’m able. But you’ve got to understand that this novelistic mountain we’re climbing, well, I’ve never been to the top either. Just a reminder. Stay tuned. Next time: are Thomas Pynchon and Bob Dylan the same person? HENRY MU Information, Media, and Technology Consultant http://my.barackobama.com/page/community/blog_rss/henrymu/ -----Original Message----- From: owner-pynchon-l at waste.org [mailto:owner-pynchon-l at waste.org] On Behalf Of Robert Mahnke Sent: Wednesday, July 02, 2008 9:56 AM To: pynchon-l at waste.org Subject: Pynchon in Newsweek Google tells me that this has something to do with Pynchon, but I can't get the page to load this morning: http://www.newsweek.com/id/44686 Maybe one of you will have better luck.... From scuffling at gmail.com Wed Jul 2 11:41:13 2008 From: scuffling at gmail.com (Henry) Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2008 12:41:13 -0400 Subject: Have a Tunguska! References: <001e01c8d2df$0a35ff30$1ea1fd90$@com> <830c13f40806200839x3960104fjf4787afde8d71ecb@mail.gmail.com> <8CAA12A2B997262-166C-418@webmail-de18.sysops.aol.com> <000901c8d317$50c49c30$f24dd490$@com> <8CAA38C76DA9521-1138-5E9@webmail-de18.sysops.aol.com> <8CAA38D388C14C4-1138-640@webmail-de18.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <008701c8dc62$7155c010$54014030$@com> Mo''uska: http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/07/080701105330.htm By the way, if these things happened every hundred years or so, where and when have they happened before? HENRY MU Information, Media, and Technology Consultant http://my.barackobama.com/page/community/blog/henrymu From scuffling at gmail.com Wed Jul 2 11:44:44 2008 From: scuffling at gmail.com (Henry) Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2008 12:44:44 -0400 Subject: Hardly NEP: Time for Lots of Bots; Watermelon May Have Viagra-effect References: <7322137.1215006934349.JavaMail.root@elwamui-polski.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <008801c8dc62$eeed1640$ccc742c0$@com> "We Love Robots. You think Wall-E is cute? Check out this gallery of adorable — and real — automatons" http://www.time.com/time/photogallery/0,29307,1815874,00.html "A cold slice of watermelon has long been a Fourth of July holiday staple. But according to recent studies, the juicy fruit may be better suited for Valentine’s Day. That’s because scientists say watermelon has ingredients that deliver Viagra-like effects to the body’s blood vessels and may even increase libido." http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/06/080630165707.htm HENRY MU Information, Media, and Technology Consultant http://my.barackobama.com/page/community/blog_rss/henrymu/ From scuffling at gmail.com Wed Jul 2 10:35:08 2008 From: scuffling at gmail.com (Henry) Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2008 11:35:08 -0400 Subject: NP: DC Public Library Offers MP3 Downloads References: <7322137.1215006934349.JavaMail.root@elwamui-polski.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <006f01c8dc59$3625b4e0$a2711ea0$@com> A-and with the new Supreme Court ruling negating DC's gun ban, it's nice to be able to get things out of the library without having to take your guns to town. [hm] http://tinyurl.com/65jjyg DC Public Library Offers MP3 Downloads The D.C. Public Library announced yesterday that it has a new online collection of audiobooks available for download in the MP3 format. http://tinyurl.com/65fumk It's a first for a public library system, according to a statement from the system's chief librarian. While public libraries have offered audiobooks online before, the standard move has been to make those offerings available in a format playable on Microsoft's Windows Media Player software. That's not terribly convenient for people who want to listen to an audio title on their iPod. DC's new online collection is designed to be iPod-friendly -- for Windows users, anyway. To use the service, users will have to download a piece of software called OverDrive Media Console. Right now, eek, that software is not available for Macs, but a Mac version is on the way, said George Williams, a public information officer with the D.C. library system. The expectation is that users will delete the files after 21 days, the standard length of time for checking out a book, he said. A quick look at the service turns up plenty of beach reading: The service offers books by David Baldacci, Dean Koontz, and James Patterson, just to name a few of the familiar names among the authors with titles here. (I've also written about other sites such as Podiobooks.com where audiobooks are offered for free.) "We want to make sure the public knows we offer an increasing collection on multiple platforms," said Williams. By Mike Musgrove, Washington Post | June 27, 2008; 12:25 PM ET HENRY MU Information, Media, and Technology Consultant http://my.barackobama.com/page/community/blog_rss/henrymu/ From against.the.dave at gmail.com Wed Jul 2 12:47:59 2008 From: against.the.dave at gmail.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2008 12:47:59 -0500 Subject: The Best Tunguska Theories Message-ID: The Best Tunguska Theories A hundred years ago yesterday a comet or an asteroid or a divine wild pitch crashed into the Tunguska region of central Siberia with a force 1,000 times greater than the atom bomb dropped on Hiroshima. People hundreds of miles of away felt the blast, and the resulting embers in the atmosphere illuminated the night sky over London. Very cool, and very fortunate that practically no form of civilization existed at or around the epicenter (Indiana Jones would have needed, like, a whole subzero fridge to survive the blast). But the trouble was that, apart from charring and stripping the forest trees and otherwise heating up the joint, the flaming object left no crater. Even if it had, it'd have entered the cultural consciousness as the early 20th-century precursor of crop circles and grassy knolls. "Tunguska" has led to all manner of interesting theories as to what really happened, the lamest being that aliens did it. Here are a few of the better ones: 1. The Earth Mother awakens. Thomas Pynchon's novel Against the Day had it that a North Pole expedition roused some terrestrial geological entity that, upon being shipped to Siberia, lost its shit and unleashed Gehenna up top as payback for being moved from the Arctic tundra. 2. The zap and whoops. ISerbo-Croatian inventor and coil namesake Nikola Tesla fired a death ray that went to eleven and evidently worked a lot better than the still-implausible human Xerox machine David Bowie cobbled together as him in the film The Prestige. Best captured in the book Callahan's Key by Spider Robinson, who could argue anything with that name, as far as I'm concerned. 3. The underground cosmic event. The Jackson-Ryan hypothesis: Tunguska was caused by a teensy subterranean black hole that one day decided to pucker or burp or whatever. See Larry Niven's The Borderland of Sol for how that works. 4. The Ruskies and spacetime. In yet another fiction, Chekhov's Journey, Ian Watson posits that the Soviets invented a time-ship that they lost a handle on. This enables Anton Chekhov, who must have sounded like a patient out of Ward 6, to learn of the impending the cataclysm in 1890, almost two decades before it occurred. http://gawker.com/tag/science/?i=5021179&t=the-best-tunguska-theories From against.the.dave at gmail.com Wed Jul 2 13:57:57 2008 From: against.the.dave at gmail.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2008 13:57:57 -0500 Subject: The death of life writing Message-ID: The death of life writing Celebrity memoirs, breathless lives of 18th-century socialites and countless royal mistresses - whatever happened to the golden age of biography? And what is the future for a genre in which the best subjects have already been written about, time and again, asks Kathryn Hughes Saturday June 28, 2008 The Guardian Nigel Hamilton opens his new primer How to Do Biography (Harvard) with the bold boast that we are living in "a golden age" of life writing. Really, he should know better. To anyone who reads, reviews or writes on the subject, such confidence is baffling. (Hamilton, a Briton, lives mainly in the States, which may account for his rosy myopia.) Seen close up, and with an eye to proper detail, biography appears in rather a bad way. "Crisis" would probably be putting it too strongly, not least because it suggests a certain convulsive energy. "Sclerosis" might be nearer. Sales, it's true, are still good, though showing signs of softening. According to Nielsen BookScan, literary biography reached an all-time high in 2005, but has since started to fall. General arts biographies are also down. However, to give an idea of how the non-fiction market as a whole has recently been bent out of shape, it's worth noting the exponential leap in celebrity memoir. Thus Katie Price has managed to shift 335,649 hardback copies of her life story Being Jordan, despite her jaunty admission that someone else wrote it. Meanwhile, Hilary Spurling's Costa-winning Matisse the Master, surely one of the best biographies of the decade, has lifetime hardback sales of just 12,451. However, it is when you look at the quality of work produced rather than the number of books sold that you start to fear for the health of a genre that not only predates the novel by centuries (think of Plutarch's Lives), but holds peculiarly British credentials.... http://books.guardian.co.uk/departments/biography/story/0,,2287893,00.html The New York Times July 1, 2008, 2:47 pm The End of Biography? By Jennifer Schuessler Just about every literary genre has been declared dead. Is biography's time up too? Kathryn Hughes, writing in The Guardian, thinks so. Most of the major figures have been written about, probably more than once, leaving little more than B-list movie stars, third-string royal mistresses, and inanimate objects. (Salt, anyone?) "The 19th and 20th centuries have long been harvested for any royal, writer, actor, painter or soldier whose life and work could conceivably yield 350 pages of serviceable prose," Hughes writes. On a bad day, I'd call that generous: plenty of the biographies that cross my desk are 600 pages of less than serviceable prose. But then again, there are are still some plums ripe for the picking, including Cormac McCarthy, E. L. Doctorow, Don DeLillo, Toni Morrison, Salman Rushdie and Thomas Pynchon, to keep things confined to the literary world. And if heavyweights like Claire Tomalin and Michael Holroyd (both quoted in Hughes's article) are still bullish, well, perhaps there's life in life writing yet. http://papercuts.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/07/01/the-end-of-biography/ From markekohut at yahoo.com Wed Jul 2 14:25:55 2008 From: markekohut at yahoo.com (Mark Kohut) Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2008 12:25:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: The death of life writing In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <768876.84605.qm@web38404.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Hughes is ridiculously wrong.....new good bios emerge because the truth gets able to be touched more fully.................she doesn't even talk about a real problem: being sued or stopped by estates.......   Re; Sales...thus it has always been.................  --- On Wed, 7/2/08, Dave Monroe wrote: From: Dave Monroe Subject: The death of life writing To: "pynchon -l" Date: Wednesday, July 2, 2008, 2:57 PM The death of life writing Celebrity memoirs, breathless lives of 18th-century socialites and countless royal mistresses - whatever happened to the golden age of biography? And what is the future for a genre in which the best subjects have already been written about, time and again, asks Kathryn Hughes Saturday June 28, 2008 The Guardian Nigel Hamilton opens his new primer How to Do Biography (Harvard) with the bold boast that we are living in "a golden age" of life writing. Really, he should know better. To anyone who reads, reviews or writes on the subject, such confidence is baffling. (Hamilton, a Briton, lives mainly in the States, which may account for his rosy myopia.) Seen close up, and with an eye to proper detail, biography appears in rather a bad way. "Crisis" would probably be putting it too strongly, not least because it suggests a certain convulsive energy. "Sclerosis" might be nearer. Sales, it's true, are still good, though showing signs of softening. According to Nielsen BookScan, literary biography reached an all-time high in 2005, but has since started to fall. General arts biographies are also down. However, to give an idea of how the non-fiction market as a whole has recently been bent out of shape, it's worth noting the exponential leap in celebrity memoir. Thus Katie Price has managed to shift 335,649 hardback copies of her life story Being Jordan, despite her jaunty admission that someone else wrote it. Meanwhile, Hilary Spurling's Costa-winning Matisse the Master, surely one of the best biographies of the decade, has lifetime hardback sales of just 12,451. However, it is when you look at the quality of work produced rather than the number of books sold that you start to fear for the health of a genre that not only predates the novel by centuries (think of Plutarch's Lives), but holds peculiarly British credentials.... http://books.guardian.co.uk/departments/biography/story/0,,2287893,00.html The New York Times July 1, 2008, 2:47 pm The End of Biography? By Jennifer Schuessler Just about every literary genre has been declared dead. Is biography's time up too? Kathryn Hughes, writing in The Guardian, thinks so. Most of the major figures have been written about, probably more than once, leaving little more than B-list movie stars, third-string royal mistresses, and inanimate objects. (Salt, anyone?) "The 19th and 20th centuries have long been harvested for any royal, writer, actor, painter or soldier whose life and work could conceivably yield 350 pages of serviceable prose," Hughes writes. On a bad day, I'd call that generous: plenty of the biographies that cross my desk are 600 pages of less than serviceable prose. But then again, there are are still some plums ripe for the picking, including Cormac McCarthy, E. L. Doctorow, Don DeLillo, Toni Morrison, Salman Rushdie and Thomas Pynchon, to keep things confined to the literary world. And if heavyweights like Claire Tomalin and Michael Holroyd (both quoted in Hughes's article) are still bullish, well, perhaps there's life in life writing yet. http://papercuts.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/07/01/the-end-of-biography/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From markekohut at yahoo.com Wed Jul 2 14:29:56 2008 From: markekohut at yahoo.com (Mark Kohut) Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2008 12:29:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: NP but maybe very related to a part of P Message-ID: <578108.96358.qm@web38407.mail.mud.yahoo.com> "The immediate life-emotion, happiness in the moment, the sense of the whole that is imparted by nature is monastic mysticism of the Middle Ages in secular form."                                  ----Robert Musil, Diaries, 1905-1908 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From against.the.dave at gmail.com Wed Jul 2 14:31:54 2008 From: against.the.dave at gmail.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2008 14:31:54 -0500 Subject: The death of life writing In-Reply-To: <768876.84605.qm@web38404.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <768876.84605.qm@web38404.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On 7/2/08, Mark Kohut wrote: > > Hughes is ridiculously wrong.....new good bios emerge because the truth gets able to be touched more fully.................she doesn't even talk about a real problem: being sued or stopped by estates....... By the way, again, hope no one's waiting to host on my account, I'm again having extreme dificulty coordinating online access with quality time with, well, simple functionality for this last page or two 9right, Tim?), so ... From against.the.dave at gmail.com Wed Jul 2 15:04:57 2008 From: against.the.dave at gmail.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2008 15:04:57 -0500 Subject: AtDtDA(34): "Oh, There Won't Be any War" Message-ID: "'Oh, there won't be any war.'" (AtD, Pt. IV., p. 759) "'They have adapted the σχημα'" The word schema comes from the Greek word "σχήμα" (skhēma), which means shape or more generally plan.... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schema The monastic habit is the same throughout the Eastern Church (with certain slight regional variations), and it is the same for both monks and nuns. Each successive grade is given a portion of the habit, the full habit being worn only by those in the highest grade, known for that reason as the "Great Schema", or "Great Habit." One is free to enter any monastery of one's choice; but after being accepted by the abbot (or abbess) and making vows, one may not move from place to place without the blessing of one's ecclesiastical superior.... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schema_(Orthodoxy)#Orthodox_monasticism Great Schema (Greek: μεγαλοσχημος, Megaloschemos; Slavonic: Схима, Schima)—Monks whose abbot feels they have reached a high level of spiritual excellence reach the final stage, called the Great Schema. The tonsure of a Schemamonk or Schemanun follows the same format as the Stavrophore, and he makes the same vows and is tonsured in the same manner. But in addition to all the garments worn by the Stavrophore, he is given the analavos (Slavonic: analav) which is the article of monastic vesture emblematic of the Great Schema. For this reason, the analavos itself is sometimes itself called the "Great Schema". It drapes over the shoulders and hangs down in front and in back, with the front portion somewhat longer ... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schema_(Orthodoxy)#Great_Schema http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schema_(Orthodoxy) "the Orphic story of the world's beginning" http://persephones.250free.com/orphic-cosmogony.html "the Greeks called her Νυξ" NYX was the goddess of the night, one of the ancient Protogenoi (first-born elemental gods).... http://www.theoi.com/Protogenos/Nyx.html The fragments of Orphic cosmogonies given by Eudemos, and Plato, and Lydus do not quite agree, but at least Night, Oceanus, and Thetys are elementary beings, and the first of them in order of existence was probably Night.... http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04405c.htm In Greek mythology, Nyx (Νύξ, Nox in Roman translation) was the primordial goddess of the night. A shadowy figure, Night stood at or near the beginning of creation, and was the mother of personified gods such as Sleep and Death. Her appearances in mythology are sparse, but reveal her as a figure of exceptional power.... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nyx_(mythology) Night took on an even more important role in several fragmentary poems attributed to Orpheus. In them, Night, rather than Chaos, is the first principle. Night occupies a cave or adyton, in which she gives oracles. Kronos - who is chained within, asleep and drunk on honey - dreams and prophesies. Outside the cave, Adrastea clashes cymbals and beats upon her tympanon, moving the entire universe in an ecstatic dance to the rhythm of Nyx's chanting. Phanes - the strange, monstrous, hermaphrodite Orphic demiurge - was the child or father of Nyx. Night is also the first principle in the opening chorus of Aristophanes's Birds, which may be Orphic in inspiration.... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nyx_(mythology)#Other_Greek_texts http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e3/William-Adolphe_Bouguereau_%281825-1905%29_-_La_Nuit_%281883%29.jpg Vs. ... http://against-the-day.pynchonwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=ATD_946-975#Page_959 But why these particular words in the Greek alphabet? Help! "In the Eastern rite" Unlike in Western Christianity, where sundry religious orders arose, each with its own profession rites, in the Eastern Orthodox Church, there is only one type of monasticism. The profession of monastics is known as Tonsure (referring to the ritual cutting of the monastic's hair which takes place during the service) and is considered to be a Sacred Mystery (Sacrament).... [...] One becomes a monk or nun by being tonsured, a rite which only a priest can perform. This is typically done by the abbot. The priest tonsuring a monk or nun must himself be tonsured into the same or greater degree of monasticism that he is tonsuring into. In other words, only a hieromonk who has been tonsured into the Great Schema may himself tonsure a Schemamonk. A bishop, however, may tonsure into any rank, regardless of his own; also, on rare occasion, a bishop will allow a priest to tonsure a monk or nun into any rank.... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schema_(Orthodoxy)#Orthodox_monasticism "a kind of girdle" ? "adapted"? In some communities, the novice also wears the leather belt.... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schema_(Orthodoxy)#Novice Father Ponko ? hegumen Hegumen, hegumenos, or ihumen ... is the title for the head of a monastery of the Eastern Orthodox Church or Eastern Catholic Churches, similar to the one of abbot. The head of a convent of nuns is called hegumenia or ihumenia .... The term means "the one who is in charge", "the leader" in Greek.... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hegumen "'Talking, for women, is a form of breathing'" Compare p. 501: "a hundred women ... all silent." Tying Noellyn/Yashmeen to Cyprian? http://against-the-day.pynchonwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=ATD_946-975#Page_959 From against.the.dave at gmail.com Wed Jul 2 15:28:29 2008 From: against.the.dave at gmail.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2008 15:28:29 -0500 Subject: AtDtDA(34): "What is It that is Born of Light?" Message-ID: "When it was Cyprian's turn, he knelt and whispered, 'What is it that is born of light?'" (AtD, Pt. IV, p.959) "a look of unaccustomed sorrow" Why? "our great enemies were the Hesychasts" Hesychasm ... is an eremitic tradition of prayer in the Eastern Orthodox Church, and some other Eastern Churches of the Byzantine Rite, practised (Gk: ἡσυχάζω hesychazo: "to keep stillness") by the Hesychast (Gr. Ἡσυχαστής hesychastes). Based on Christ's injunction in the Gospel of Matthew to "go into your closet to pray", Hesychasm in tradition has been the process of retiring inward by ceasing to register the senses, in order to achieve an experiential knowledge of God (see theoria).... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hesychasts About the year 1337 Hesychasm attracted the attention of a learned member of the Orthodox Church, Barlaam, a Calabrian monk ... Barlaam took exception to, as heretical and blasphemous, the doctrine entertained by the Hesychasts as to the nature of the light, the experience of which was said to be the goal of Hesychast practice. It was maintained by the Hesychasts to be of divine origin and to be identical to that light which had been manifested to Jesus' disciples on Mount Tabor at the Transfiguration. This Barlaam held to be polytheistic, inasmuch as it postulated two eternal substances, a visible and an invisible God.... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hesychasts#Gregory_Palamas:_defender_of_Hesychasm http://against-the-day.pynchonwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=ATD_946-975#Page_959 "'What is it that was born of that light?'" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transfiguration_of_Jesus "'There came a cloud and overshadowed them'" Luke 9:34 http://etext.virginia.edu/etcbin/toccer-new2?id=KjvLuke.sgm&images=images/modeng&data=/texts/english/modeng/parsed&tag=public&part=9&division=div1 August 6 is the Feast of the Transfiguration, the celebration of the day when Jesus revealed his divinity to Peter, John, and James on the top of Mount Tabor. (Matthew 17:2 and Mark 9:2.) It has been called "the culminating point of His public life, as His baptism is its starting point and His ascension its end." As an actual holiday, the Feast of the Transfiguration had its origins in the forth century. It is believed that it was substituted for an early pagan feast called Vatavarh, or Roseflame, held in honor of Aphrodite. In an ironic pairing typical of Gravity's Rainbow, this feast coincides with another event on August 6, 1945: the dropping of the atomic bomb on Hiroshima. http://www.themodernword.com/pynchon/pynchon_granalysis.html Through the clever placement of ironic transformations and satirical inversions, there are several focal points throughout the work where two opposing images exist simultaneously, setting up an ironic dissonance -- the fact that Hiroshima occurs on the Feast of the Transfiguration, for example ... http://www.themodernword.com/pynchon/pynchon_grintro.html omphalopsychoi Main Entry: om·pha·los Pronunciation: \ˈäm(p)-fə-ˌläs, -ləs\ Function: noun Etymology: Greek, navel — more at navel Date: 1855 : a central point : hub, focal point http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/omphali Main Entry: psy·che Pronunciation: \ˈsī-kē\ Function: noun Etymology: Latin, from Greek psychē soul Date: 1590 1capitalized : a princess loved by Cupid 2[Greek psychē] a: soul, personality b: mind 2 http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/psyche Hesychasts condemned as "having their souls in their navel." http://against-the-day.pynchonwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=ATD_946-975#Page_959 From markekohut at yahoo.com Wed Jul 2 17:16:43 2008 From: markekohut at yahoo.com (Mark Kohut) Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2008 15:16:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: AtDtDA(34): "Oh, There Won't Be any War" Message-ID: <770669.67712.qm@web38406.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Re; Why those words in the original Greek?......I am reminded of the way the Gagolitic Alphabet is described.......created to be Scripture as it were..............   the original Greek here is closer to the source, the reality, I suggest. We are touching 'the world's beginning" in the Orphic Myth. --- On Wed, 7/2/08, Dave Monroe wrote: From: Dave Monroe Subject: AtDtDA(34): "Oh, There Won't Be any War" To: "pynchon -l" Date: Wednesday, July 2, 2008, 4:04 PM "'Oh, there won't be any war.'" (AtD, Pt. IV., p. 759) "'They have adapted the σχημα'" The word schema comes from the Greek word "σχήμα" (skhēma), which means shape or more generally plan.... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schema The monastic habit is the same throughout the Eastern Church (with certain slight regional variations), and it is the same for both monks and nuns. Each successive grade is given a portion of the habit, the full habit being worn only by those in the highest grade, known for that reason as the "Great Schema", or "Great Habit." One is free to enter any monastery of one's choice; but after being accepted by the abbot (or abbess) and making vows, one may not move from place to place without the blessing of one's ecclesiastical superior.... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schema_(Orthodoxy)#Orthodox_monasticism Great Schema (Greek: μεγαλοσχημος, Megaloschemos; Slavonic: Схима, Schima)—Monks whose abbot feels they have reached a high level of spiritual excellence reach the final stage, called the Great Schema. The tonsure of a Schemamonk or Schemanun follows the same format as the Stavrophore, and he makes the same vows and is tonsured in the same manner. But in addition to all the garments worn by the Stavrophore, he is given the analavos (Slavonic: analav) which is the article of monastic vesture emblematic of the Great Schema. For this reason, the analavos itself is sometimes itself called the "Great Schema". It drapes over the shoulders and hangs down in front and in back, with the front portion somewhat longer ... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schema_(Orthodoxy)#Great_Schema http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schema_(Orthodoxy) "the Orphic story of the world's beginning" http://persephones.250free.com/orphic-cosmogony.html "the Greeks called her Νυξ" NYX was the goddess of the night, one of the ancient Protogenoi (first-born elemental gods).... http://www.theoi.com/Protogenos/Nyx.html The fragments of Orphic cosmogonies given by Eudemos, and Plato, and Lydus do not quite agree, but at least Night, Oceanus, and Thetys are elementary beings, and the first of them in order of existence was probably Night.... http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04405c.htm In Greek mythology, Nyx (Νύξ, Nox in Roman translation) was the primordial goddess of the night. A shadowy figure, Night stood at or near the beginning of creation, and was the mother of personified gods such as Sleep and Death. Her appearances in mythology are sparse, but reveal her as a figure of exceptional power.... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nyx_(mythology) Night took on an even more important role in several fragmentary poems attributed to Orpheus. In them, Night, rather than Chaos, is the first principle. Night occupies a cave or adyton, in which she gives oracles. Kronos - who is chained within, asleep and drunk on honey - dreams and prophesies. Outside the cave, Adrastea clashes cymbals and beats upon her tympanon, moving the entire universe in an ecstatic dance to the rhythm of Nyx's chanting. Phanes - the strange, monstrous, hermaphrodite Orphic demiurge - was the child or father of Nyx. Night is also the first principle in the opening chorus of Aristophanes's Birds, which may be Orphic in inspiration.... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nyx_(mythology)#Other_Greek_texts http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e3/William-Adolphe_Bouguereau_%281825-1905%29_-_La_Nuit_%281883%29.jpg Vs. ... http://against-the-day.pynchonwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=ATD_946-975#Page_959 But why these particular words in the Greek alphabet? Help! "In the Eastern rite" Unlike in Western Christianity, where sundry religious orders arose, each with its own profession rites, in the Eastern Orthodox Church, there is only one type of monasticism. The profession of monastics is known as Tonsure (referring to the ritual cutting of the monastic's hair which takes place during the service) and is considered to be a Sacred Mystery (Sacrament).... [...] One becomes a monk or nun by being tonsured, a rite which only a priest can perform. This is typically done by the abbot. The priest tonsuring a monk or nun must himself be tonsured into the same or greater degree of monasticism that he is tonsuring into. In other words, only a hieromonk who has been tonsured into the Great Schema may himself tonsure a Schemamonk. A bishop, however, may tonsure into any rank, regardless of his own; also, on rare occasion, a bishop will allow a priest to tonsure a monk or nun into any rank.... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schema_(Orthodoxy)#Orthodox_monasticism "a kind of girdle" ? "adapted"? In some communities, the novice also wears the leather belt.... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schema_(Orthodoxy)#Novice Father Ponko ? hegumen Hegumen, hegumenos, or ihumen ... is the title for the head of a monastery of the Eastern Orthodox Church or Eastern Catholic Churches, similar to the one of abbot. The head of a convent of nuns is called hegumenia or ihumenia .... The term means "the one who is in charge", "the leader" in Greek.... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hegumen "'Talking, for women, is a form of breathing'" Compare p. 501: "a hundred women ... all silent." Tying Noellyn/Yashmeen to Cyprian? http://against-the-day.pynchonwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=ATD_946-975#Page_959 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From monte.davis at verizon.net Thu Jul 3 02:16:01 2008 From: monte.davis at verizon.net (Monte Davis) Date: Thu, 03 Jul 2008 03:16:01 -0400 Subject: AtDtDA(34): "I Shan't Be Coming with You" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <4B49B853393C43759F72615909C394E3@MSI1> Dave Monroe quotes: > "'When you leave,' Cyprian said quietly, 'I shan't be coming > with you.'" (AtD, Pt. IV, p. 957) The saddest words of tongue or pen. I mean sure, I'm happy for Cyp getting off the Wheel and all, but the rest of us -- SOL. From monte.davis at verizon.net Thu Jul 3 02:57:06 2008 From: monte.davis at verizon.net (Monte Davis) Date: Thu, 03 Jul 2008 03:57:06 -0400 Subject: 100 Years Since Tunguska In-Reply-To: <486b0239.1e068e0a.4c94.ffff895d@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <5979C7C27BAC4331A6018FF8CFB1A96C@MSI1> Richard Fiero quotes: > We know that a rather massive body flew into the atmosphere of our > planet, said Boris Shustov of the Russian Academy of > Sciences. It measured 40 to 60 meters in diameter. Clearly, > it did not consist > of iron, otherwise it would have certainly reached the earth... That's not as certain and clear-cut as he makes it sound. When something like that hits an atmosphere, the thermal shock is way outside our experience, even with spacecraft re-entry: there literally IS NOT TIME for the air to be pushed out of the way, so a "column" many miles long/deep is rammed into a layer of dense plasma at stellar temperatures. (It was seriously suggested in the 1960s that researchers look for traces of thermonuclear fusion at Tunguska -- no deuterium or magnetic confinement needed, just good old compression, the way the dark heart of the sun does it.) That plasma -- and thousands or millions of atmospheres of pressure -- is doing its best to transfer energy into the leading face of the impactor, and Shustov's intuition about "well, sure, but it takes time to heat it up and rip it apart" isn't worth much. I recall calculations when the big Shoemaker-Levy comet -- presumed from its record of progressive break-up to be ice-rich and "fluffier" -- hit Jupiter: they figured out the level of thermal shock needed to disintegrate such an object, and noted casually that it would have taken only a very few seconds longer to do the same to nickel-iron. So depending on the details of speed , angle of incidence, and even shape (no reason to assume it was round except to make the math simpler), it's not impossible for even an iron impactor to have been ripped to sparkling dust before macroscopic chunks could hit the ground. From against.the.dave at gmail.com Thu Jul 3 08:16:18 2008 From: against.the.dave at gmail.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2008 08:16:18 -0500 Subject: AtDtDA(34): "Oh, There Won't Be any War" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 7/2/08, Dave Monroe wrote: > "the Greeks called her Νυξ" 1: In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. 2: And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. 3: And God said, Let there be light: and there was light. 4: And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness. 5: And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.... http://etext.virginia.edu/etcbin/toccer-new2?id=KjvGene.sgm&images=images/modeng&data=/texts/english/modeng/parsed&tag=public&part=1&division=div1 Thank you, offlist prompter ... From markekohut at yahoo.com Thu Jul 3 09:04:06 2008 From: markekohut at yahoo.com (Mark Kohut) Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2008 07:04:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: AtDtDA(34): "Oh, There Won't Be any War" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <728123.35241.qm@web38404.mail.mud.yahoo.com> I don't know Grrek, so help me with the connection here between NuE and Genesis.... --- On Thu, 7/3/08, Dave Monroe wrote: From: Dave Monroe Subject: Re: AtDtDA(34): "Oh, There Won't Be any War" To: "pynchon -l" Date: Thursday, July 3, 2008, 9:16 AM On 7/2/08, Dave Monroe wrote: > "the Greeks called her Νυξ" 1: In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. 2: And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. 3: And God said, Let there be light: and there was light. 4: And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness. 5: And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.... http://etext.virginia.edu/etcbin/toccer-new2?id=KjvGene.sgm&images=images/modeng&data=/texts/english/modeng/parsed&tag=public&part=1&division=div1 Thank you, offlist prompter ... -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From against.the.dave at gmail.com Thu Jul 3 09:05:53 2008 From: against.the.dave at gmail.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2008 09:05:53 -0500 Subject: METROPOLIS Rebuilt Message-ID: Fritz Lang's Long-Missing, Full-Length Edit Has Finally Been Located http://www.aintitcool.com/node/37324 From against.the.dave at gmail.com Thu Jul 3 09:06:50 2008 From: against.the.dave at gmail.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2008 09:06:50 -0500 Subject: METROPOLIS Rebuilt In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: http://www.zeit.de/online/2008/27/metropolis-vorab-englisch On 7/3/08, Dave Monroe wrote: > Fritz Lang's Long-Missing, Full-Length Edit Has Finally Been Located > > http://www.aintitcool.com/node/37324 > From against.the.dave at gmail.com Thu Jul 3 09:41:03 2008 From: against.the.dave at gmail.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2008 09:41:03 -0500 Subject: The Concrete Jungle Book Message-ID: 'The Concrete Jungle Book': A different animal Trevor Hunnicutt Thursday, July 3, 2008 Artists have used mixed media with great success to push the boundaries of art. Picasso's use of collage, for instance, helped develop methods of expression in Cubism. In an effort to push book publishing into the 21st century, a writer, a schoolteacher and a graphic artist have joined forces in a mixed-media project: a retelling of Rudyard Kipling's classic "The Jungle Book" that combines scrapbooking, graphic art, prose storytelling and pages based on the collaboration of readers online. Doug Millison, an author of "The Concrete Jungle Book," an unpublished graphic novel, says the use of mixed media helps tell the story through the eyes of the book's protagonists: Little Mo, an autistic boy living in the concrete jungle of Dallas, who is forced to contend with his parents' murder at the hands of a vicious gangster; the gangster; and the heroes who help Little Mo. In the model of Kipling, those characters become anthropomorphized animals in Little Mo's mind. One is called Akela the Wolf, who helps Little Mo craft his revenge, and Shere Khan the Tiger, who attempts to kill him. "There is a realm of experience that's closed off to us because we don't want to consider it," said Millison. By using multiple media, the book can show readers how animals and an autistic youth think about the world. Animals, Millison said, consider themselves in a state of warfare with most people in competition for environmental resources. Millison, an El Cerrito writer, and Steve Porter, a former middle school teacher in Texas, say they were inspired in part by a high-performing but developmentally disabled student in Porter's class who demonstrated a mastery of the class material despite concentrating more on drawing pictures in his notebook. They believed a novel showing the world from his perspective would be more vivid and accurate in mixed media, and a novel showing the perspective of animals would make more sense visually than textually. Srayla Tip designed the art in the book. The project's use of new media and the Internet comes into play with TheConcreteJungleBook.com, where readers can add words and art to the book and share them over the Web using blogs, social-networking sites and other technologies. When the book is published, the best contributions will be added to it. Millison hopes that the use of online contributions will improve the project and inspire reader engagement. "The Web itself is a creative tool, and we hope to exploit the native ability of the Web that lets the readers become co-creators of the book," he said. For more, go to http://www.theconcretejunglebook.com. http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2008/07/03/NS2V11EUE2.DTL The Concrete Jungle Book http://www.theconcretejunglebook.com http://comicater.com/tcjb/default.aspx From markekohut at yahoo.com Thu Jul 3 10:05:46 2008 From: markekohut at yahoo.com (Mark Kohut) Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2008 08:05:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: A non-Tunguska meteorite Message-ID: <114671.44092.qm@web38403.mail.mud.yahoo.com> http://space.newscientist.com/article/mg19926634.100-lack-of-cracks-may-explain-peru-meteorite-mystery.html?feedId=online-news_rss20 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From markekohut at yahoo.com Thu Jul 3 15:43:15 2008 From: markekohut at yahoo.com (Mark Kohut) Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2008 13:43:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: So, in Gravity's Rainbow, the action happens between the launch and fall of a V-2 Message-ID: <784354.97689.qm@web38406.mail.mud.yahoo.com> published in 1973..........................   in 1973, Richard Clarke, last the national coordinator for security and counterterrorism in the U.S. governement, says in Your Government Failed You: Sec of Defense Schlesinger ordered US troops on full alert after the Soviet Union began moving nuclear weapons and troops in response to the Arab-Israeli War...... young Richard asked a Pentagon colleague what we would do if nuclear war began. The young Army major laughingly suggested that we go to Ground Zero, which was what the Pentagon staff called the courtyard hamburger stand, and look up to watch the missiles coming in.  ---page 6....       -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From scuffling at gmail.com Thu Jul 3 16:57:46 2008 From: scuffling at gmail.com (Henry) Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2008 17:57:46 -0400 Subject: So, in Gravity's Rainbow, the action happens between the launch and fall of a V-2 In-Reply-To: <784354.97689.qm@web38406.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <784354.97689.qm@web38406.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <003501c8dd57$d462b0f0$7d2812d0$@com> I’ve always been impressed by what I assume to be bad math/stat/probability for amusement’s sake that says that an unguided missile is unlikely to hit the bull’s-eye, thereby making the bull’s-eye to which Pockler was assigned, supposedly safe. Livin' in the Bull's Eye, Henry Mu How about a donating to the Obama campaign via my ambitious 4th of July fundraising “event?” Any and all amounts are appreciated ☺ http://my.barackobama.com/page/event/detail/4gddt From against.the.dave at gmail.com Thu Jul 3 17:40:35 2008 From: against.the.dave at gmail.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2008 17:40:35 -0500 Subject: So, in Gravity's Rainbow, the action happens between the launch and fall of a V-2 In-Reply-To: <784354.97689.qm@web38406.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <784354.97689.qm@web38406.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On 7/3/08, Mark Kohut wrote: > young Richard asked a Pentagon colleague what we would do if nuclear war began. The young Army major laughingly suggested that we go to Ground Zero, which was what the Pentagon staff called the courtyard hamburger stand, and look up to watch the missiles coming in. ---page 6.... That Neufeld von Braun bio recounts an episode in which, seeing as the V-2 was, even in its fullest development, hardly a weapon affording its user pinpoint accuracy (to quote WvB hisself: "Our main objective for a long time was to make it more dangerous to be in the target area than to be with the launch crew"), von Braun and Dornberger decided to observe a test launch FROM target ground zero. At which time probability reared its ugly head, vB and D dodging their bullet by diving quickly behind a mound of dirt or somesuch conveniently nearby ... From scuffling at gmail.com Thu Jul 3 17:51:35 2008 From: scuffling at gmail.com (Henry) Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2008 18:51:35 -0400 Subject: So, in Gravity's Rainbow, the action happens between the launch and fall of a V-2 In-Reply-To: References: <784354.97689.qm@web38406.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <003601c8dd5f$59411c10$0bc35430$@com> "Our main objective for a long time was to make it more dangerous to be in the target area than to be with the launch crew." Love it! HENRY Mu From against.the.dave at gmail.com Thu Jul 3 19:30:52 2008 From: against.the.dave at gmail.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2008 19:30:52 -0500 Subject: AtDtDA(34): That Which Dwells Message-ID: "'You are familiar with the idea of the Shekinah--That which dwells?'" (AtD, Pt. IV, p. 960) "the Shekinah--That which dwells" God's Presence, Kingdom The Shekhinah is a Talmudic concept representing God's dwelling and immanence in the created world.... According to a Rabbinic tradition, the Shekhinah shares in the exiles of the Jewish people. Therefore, the redemption of the people of Israel is inextricably linked to the remedying of an alienation within God him/herself, introducing a bold new element into traditional Jewish Messianic eschatology. It is through the Shekhinah that humans can experience the Divine. The passivity of the Shekhinah is often emphasized (equated with its femininity), as the recipient of forces from the higher Sefirot.... http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Judaism/Shekhinah.html http://www.ucalgary.ca/~elsegal/Sefirot/Shekhinah.html Shekhinah ... is the English spelling of a feminine Hebrew language word that means the dwelling or settling, and is used to denote the dwelling or settling presence of God, especially in the Temple in Jerusalem. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shekinah Shekhinah is derived from the Hebrew verb שכן. In Biblical Hebrew the word means literally to settle, inhabit, or dwell, and is used frequently in the Hebrew Bible.... the Shekhinah refers to a dwelling or settling in a special sense, a dwelling or settling of divine presence, to the effect that, while in proximity to the Shekhinah, the connection to God is more readily perceivable. ... Shekhinah means "the presence of God" ... practically the same as the Greek word "Parousia also a feminine word (literally: "presence") which is used in a similar way for "Divine Presence". http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shekinah#Etymology The Latin incarnatio (in: caro, flesh) corresponds to the Greek sarkosis, or ensarkosis, which words depend on John (i, 14) kai ho Logos sarx egeneto, "And the Word was made flesh".... http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07706b.htm "And the Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us, and we saw his glory, the glory as of the Father's only Son, full of grace and truth." --John 1:14 http://bible.cc/john/1-14.htm http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/john/john1.htm The incarnate Word is the new mode of God's presence among his people. The Greek verb has the same consonants as the Aramaic word for God's presence (Shekinah).... http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/john/john1.htm#foot9 "sshhhghhh" (GR, Pt. IV, p. 680) http://waste.org/mail/?list=pynchon-l&month=0007&msg=47435 http://waste.org/mail/?list=pynchon-l&month=0803&msg=125002 "British Kabbalism" See, e.g., ... http://mqup.mcgill.ca/book.php?bookid=109 http://books.google.com/books?id=5jSQhrao540C "the High Priestess" The High Priestess (II) is the second trump or Major Arcana card in most traditional Tarot decks.... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_High_Priestess She has the lunar crescent at her feet, a horned diadem on her head, with a globe in the middle place, and a large solar cross on her breast. The scroll in her hands is inscribed with the word Tora, signifying the Greater Law, the Secret Law and the second sense of the Word. It is partly covered by her mantle, to shew that some things are implied and some spoken. She is seated between the white and black pillars--J. and B.--of the mystic Temple, and the veil of the Temple is behind her: it is embroidered with palms and pomegranates. The vestments are flowing and gauzy, and the mantle suggests light--a shimmering radiance. She has been called occult Science on the threshold of the Sanctuary of Isis, but she is really the Secret Church, the House which is of God and man. She represents also the Second Marriage of the Prince who is no longer of this world; she is the spiritual Bride and Mother, the daughter of the stars and the Higher Garden of Eden. She is, in fine, the Queen of the borrowed light, but this is the light of all. She is the Moon nourished by the milk of the Supernal Mother. In a manner, she is also the Supernal Mother herself--that is to say, she is the bright reflection. It is in this sense of reflection that her truest and highest name in bolism is Shekinah--the co-habiting glory. According to Kabalism, there is a Shekinah both above and below. In the superior world it is called Binah, the Supernal Understanding which reflects to the emanations that are beneath. In the lower world it is MaIkuth--that world being, for this purpose, understood as a blessed Kingdom that with which it is made blessed being the Indwelling Glory. Mystically speaking, the Shekinah is the Spiritual Bride of the just man, and when he reads the Law she gives the Divine meaning. There are some respects in which this card is the highest and holiest of the Greater Arcana. http://www.sacred-texts.com/tarot/pkt/pktar02.htm http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_High_Priestess#Kabbalistic_Approach And see as well, e.g., ... http://trionfi.com/tarot/cards/02-popess/ http://www.tarothermit.com/priestess.htm "shiny black accoutrements" http://against-the-day.pynchonwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=ATD_678-694#Page_690 http://against-the-day.pynchonwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=ATD_678-694#Page_678 "'When god hides his face'" "He hath said in his heart, God hath forgotten: he hideth his face; he will never see it." --Psalms 10:11 (KJV) http://bible.cc/psalms/10-11.htm "Without her to reflect" "For now we see through a glass, darkly ..." --1 Corinthians 13:12 http://biblecc.com/1_corinthians/13-12.htm "She is absolutely of the essence" Tres deconstructive, non? Oui ... "a canone of Cosmas of Jerusalem" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canon_(music) ? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cosmas_of_Maiuma "vertigo was somehow designed into the place" Cf. ... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Westin_Bonaventure_Hotel http://www.eng.fju.edu.tw/Literary_Criticism/postmodernism/examples/bonadventure.htm Talk about reflection ... "some invisible, imponderable medium" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luminiferous_aether "The mooned planet ... the planetary electron" ? "a form of death" ... To die: to sleep; No more; and by a sleep to say we end The heart-ache and the thousand natural shocks That flesh is heir to, 'tis a consummation Devoutly to be wish'd. To die, to sleep; To sleep: perchance to dream: ay, there's the rub; For in that sleep of death what dreams may come When we have shuffled off this mortal coil, Must give us pause ... (Hamlet, III.i) http://shakespeare.mit.edu/hamlet/hamlet.3.1.html And see as well, e.g., ... http://www.theosophy-nw.org/theosnw/death/de-gdp5.htm From isread at btinternet.com Thu Jul 3 23:09:26 2008 From: isread at btinternet.com (Paul Nightingale) Date: Fri, 4 Jul 2008 05:09:26 +0100 Subject: Atdtda28: The General is eager to know, 780 Message-ID: <000601c8dd8b$c01fc7c0$405f5740$@com> A third section opening with a bald statement, here one relating to agency, the individual's role and/or function. The agent-as-author. Gerasimoff wishes to assert his identity, but what is his opinion worth? Not much, apparently, as Padzhitnoff counters with another view, that of bureaucratic superiors (and by the end of the section Gerasimoff's 'view' has been countered by Pavel's). Gerasimoff thinks he can separate war and science; the reader, who has, perhaps, imposed meaning on the "heavenwide blast" that opens the chapter (779), might recall that the twentieth century has demonstrated the falsity of that proposition in spectacular fashion (cf. Padzhitnoff's reference to gunpowder down the page). We are being introduced to the Bol'shaia Ingra's crew as they make sense of the 'reality' that feeds 'history': cf. the Chums' introduction ahead of the Chicago Fair. Gennady is sardonic, perhaps less abrasively so than Darby Suckling; his emphasis on the real-estate possibilities down below prioritises the logic of capitalist development. Where Gerasimoff wishes to separate war and science, Gennady here confuses politics/bureaucracy and private enterprise: another way of promoting the individual-as-agent/author, of course. Thus far, the "heavenwide blast" has no author, or at least one that can be identified: "The General is eager to know ..." etc. As the section ends, the 'who' has become 'how to describe it': "I want all of you to see something curious," etc. The exchange between Gerasimoff and Pavel is succeeded by unattributed speech: Gerasimoff, or another? From monte.davis at verizon.net Fri Jul 4 03:06:06 2008 From: monte.davis at verizon.net (Monte Davis) Date: Fri, 04 Jul 2008 04:06:06 -0400 Subject: So, in Gravity's Rainbow, the action happens between the launch and fall of a V-2 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <61DD6E9DD2D1456486ECEB6493C81046@MSI1> Dave Monroe quotes: >"Our main objective for a long time was to > make it more dangerous to be in the target area than to be > with the launch crew" A nasty mutation of the point Neufeld made years ago in _The Rocket and the Reich_: that more people were killed in manufacturing the V-2s than by them. From hraudask at sun3.oulu.fi Fri Jul 4 04:34:52 2008 From: hraudask at sun3.oulu.fi (Heikki Raudaskoski) Date: Fri, 4 Jul 2008 12:34:52 +0300 (EEST) Subject: NP Grand Indie Day In-Reply-To: <61DD6E9DD2D1456486ECEB6493C81046@MSI1> References: <61DD6E9DD2D1456486ECEB6493C81046@MSI1> Message-ID: to you Americans! Here's two sweeping documents to celebrate the fete: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3b56e0u0EgQ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TKYALsp-sIg Later this month in central Finland, I'll probably experience the latter item live - and "I Got A Right" too - as the Asheton brothers have just lifted the ban on Williamson period stuff. As to the former specimen, the combo I'm in will quite possibly present something related to Captain Kirk's finding when it goes America in mid-September. The trip was just confirmed. The exact dates and gigs are still unclear, but it's likely that we will at the very least attend the closing party of the Finnish exhibition at P.S.1 on Sep 15. (There are also plans, for example, to do the Finnish Embassy in DC.) I'll keep you informed. Best, Heikki (who'll see one more American, Ornette C., Tuesday in Copenhagen) From markekohut at yahoo.com Fri Jul 4 09:31:58 2008 From: markekohut at yahoo.com (Mark Kohut) Date: Fri, 4 Jul 2008 07:31:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Fw: AtDtDA(34): "Oh, There Won't Be any War" Message-ID: <135509.62064.qm@web38402.mail.mud.yahoo.com> "So the darkness becomes the light, and the stillness the dancing"---"East Coker",T.S. Eliot.  --- On Wed, 7/2/08, Dave Monroe wrote: From: Dave Monroe Subject: AtDtDA(34): "Oh, There Won't Be any War" To: "pynchon -l" Date: Wednesday, July 2, 2008, 4:04 PM "'Oh, there won't be any war.'" (AtD, Pt. IV., p. 759) "'They have adapted the σχημα'" The word schema comes from the Greek word "σχήμα" (skhēma), which means shape or more generally plan.... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schema The monastic habit is the same throughout the Eastern Church (with certain slight regional variations), and it is the same for both monks and nuns. Each successive grade is given a portion of the habit, the full habit being worn only by those in the highest grade, known for that reason as the "Great Schema", or "Great Habit." One is free to enter any monastery of one's choice; but after being accepted by the abbot (or abbess) and making vows, one may not move from place to place without the blessing of one's ecclesiastical superior.... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schema_(Orthodoxy)#Orthodox_monasticism Great Schema (Greek: μεγαλοσχημος, Megaloschemos; Slavonic: Схима, Schima)—Monks whose abbot feels they have reached a high level of spiritual excellence reach the final stage, called the Great Schema. The tonsure of a Schemamonk or Schemanun follows the same format as the Stavrophore, and he makes the same vows and is tonsured in the same manner. But in addition to all the garments worn by the Stavrophore, he is given the analavos (Slavonic: analav) which is the article of monastic vesture emblematic of the Great Schema. For this reason, the analavos itself is sometimes itself called the "Great Schema". It drapes over the shoulders and hangs down in front and in back, with the front portion somewhat longer ... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schema_(Orthodoxy)#Great_Schema http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schema_(Orthodoxy) "the Orphic story of the world's beginning" http://persephones.250free.com/orphic-cosmogony.html "the Greeks called her Νυξ" NYX was the goddess of the night, one of the ancient Protogenoi (first-born elemental gods).... http://www.theoi.com/Protogenos/Nyx.html The fragments of Orphic cosmogonies given by Eudemos, and Plato, and Lydus do not quite agree, but at least Night, Oceanus, and Thetys are elementary beings, and the first of them in order of existence was probably Night.... http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04405c.htm In Greek mythology, Nyx (Νύξ, Nox in Roman translation) was the primordial goddess of the night. A shadowy figure, Night stood at or near the beginning of creation, and was the mother of personified gods such as Sleep and Death. Her appearances in mythology are sparse, but reveal her as a figure of exceptional power.... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nyx_(mythology) Night took on an even more important role in several fragmentary poems attributed to Orpheus. In them, Night, rather than Chaos, is the first principle. Night occupies a cave or adyton, in which she gives oracles. Kronos - who is chained within, asleep and drunk on honey - dreams and prophesies. Outside the cave, Adrastea clashes cymbals and beats upon her tympanon, moving the entire universe in an ecstatic dance to the rhythm of Nyx's chanting. Phanes - the strange, monstrous, hermaphrodite Orphic demiurge - was the child or father of Nyx. Night is also the first principle in the opening chorus of Aristophanes's Birds, which may be Orphic in inspiration.... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nyx_(mythology)#Other_Greek_texts http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e3/William-Adolphe_Bouguereau_%281825-1905%29_-_La_Nuit_%281883%29.jpg Vs. ... http://against-the-day.pynchonwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=ATD_946-975#Page_959 But why these particular words in the Greek alphabet? Help! "In the Eastern rite" Unlike in Western Christianity, where sundry religious orders arose, each with its own profession rites, in the Eastern Orthodox Church, there is only one type of monasticism. The profession of monastics is known as Tonsure (referring to the ritual cutting of the monastic's hair which takes place during the service) and is considered to be a Sacred Mystery (Sacrament).... [...] One becomes a monk or nun by being tonsured, a rite which only a priest can perform. This is typically done by the abbot. The priest tonsuring a monk or nun must himself be tonsured into the same or greater degree of monasticism that he is tonsuring into. In other words, only a hieromonk who has been tonsured into the Great Schema may himself tonsure a Schemamonk. A bishop, however, may tonsure into any rank, regardless of his own; also, on rare occasion, a bishop will allow a priest to tonsure a monk or nun into any rank.... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schema_(Orthodoxy)#Orthodox_monasticism "a kind of girdle" ? "adapted"? In some communities, the novice also wears the leather belt.... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schema_(Orthodoxy)#Novice Father Ponko ? hegumen Hegumen, hegumenos, or ihumen ... is the title for the head of a monastery of the Eastern Orthodox Church or Eastern Catholic Churches, similar to the one of abbot. The head of a convent of nuns is called hegumenia or ihumenia .... The term means "the one who is in charge", "the leader" in Greek.... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hegumen "'Talking, for women, is a form of breathing'" Compare p. 501: "a hundred women ... all silent." Tying Noellyn/Yashmeen to Cyprian? http://against-the-day.pynchonwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=ATD_946-975#Page_959 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From markekohut at yahoo.com Fri Jul 4 10:00:24 2008 From: markekohut at yahoo.com (Mark Kohut) Date: Fri, 4 Jul 2008 08:00:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: No subject Message-ID: <302443.53635.qm@web38401.mail.mud.yahoo.com>   Dave M. quoted: "'Talking, for women, is a form of breathing'" Compare p. 501: "a hundred women ... all silent." Tying Noellyn/Yashmeen to Cyprian? Hey, anyone want to comment on TRP risking/enacting a major, largely negative, [?] stereeotype about women?......Especially our female p-listers?................   However, isn't the concept of talking for women, via the metaphor, a positive quality here? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kelber at mindspring.com Fri Jul 4 11:08:36 2008 From: kelber at mindspring.com (kelber at mindspring.com) Date: Fri, 4 Jul 2008 12:08:36 -0400 (EDT) Subject: AtDtDA(34): Message-ID: <28359350.1215187716547.JavaMail.root@elwamui-cypress.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Nyx seems to be derived from the Egyptian goddess Nut: "Her name means Night. Some of the titles of Nut were Coverer of the Sky, She Who Protects, Mistress of All, and She Who Holds a Thousand Souls ... Nut was the goddess of the sky and all heavenly bodies, a symbol of resurrection and rebirth. According to the Egyptians, the heavenly bodies—such as the sun—would be swallowed, traverse the inside of her belly through the night, and be reborn out of her uterus at dawn." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nut_(goddess) In Cyprian's "What is born of the light?" there's an implication that the answer might involve evil or destruction (phosgene, for example). What is born of the night (Nut) is benevolent, life-affirming. Laura >From: Dave Monroe >"the Greeks called her Νυξ" > >NYX was the goddess of the night, one of the ancient Protogenoi >(first-born elemental gods).... > >http://www.theoi.com/Protogenos/Nyx.html > >The fragments of Orphic cosmogonies given by Eudemos, and Plato, and >Lydus do not quite agree, but at least Night, Oceanus, and Thetys are >elementary beings, and the first of them in order of existence was >probably Night.... > >http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04405c.htm > >In Greek mythology, Nyx (Νύξ, Nox in Roman translation) was the >primordial goddess of the night. A shadowy figure, Night stood at or >near the beginning of creation, and was the mother of personified gods >such as Sleep and Death. Her appearances in mythology are sparse, but >reveal her as a figure of exceptional power.... > >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nyx_(mythology) > >Night took on an even more important role in several fragmentary poems >attributed to Orpheus. In them, Night, rather than Chaos, is the first >principle. Night occupies a cave or adyton, in which she gives >oracles. Kronos - who is chained within, asleep and drunk on honey - >dreams and prophesies. Outside the cave, Adrastea clashes cymbals and >beats upon her tympanon, moving the entire universe in an ecstatic >dance to the rhythm of Nyx's chanting. Phanes - the strange, >monstrous, hermaphrodite Orphic demiurge - was the child or father of >Nyx. > >Night is also the first principle in the opening chorus of >Aristophanes's Birds, which may be Orphic in inspiration.... > >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nyx_(mythology)#Other_Greek_texts > >http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e3/William-Adolphe_Bouguereau_%281825-1905%29_-_La_Nuit_%281883%29.jpg > >Vs. ... > >http://against-the-day.pynchonwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=ATD_946-975#Page_959 > From kelber at mindspring.com Fri Jul 4 11:26:45 2008 From: kelber at mindspring.com (kelber at mindspring.com) Date: Fri, 4 Jul 2008 12:26:45 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Fw: AtDtDA(34): Message-ID: <16550333.1215188805970.JavaMail.root@elwamui-cypress.atl.sa.earthlink.net> One more point about darkness and light. TRP seems to have a positive attitude towards darkness in the Cyprian-becomes-a-nun section. We know at least one thing that is born of the light -- phosgene -- is destructive, whereas night, darkness is a "first principle" linked with creation. But on p. 964 we get: "As the landscape turned increasingly chaotic and murderous, the streams of refugees swelled. Another headlong fearful escape of the kind that in collective dreams, in legends, would be misremembered and reimagined into pilgrimage or crusade ... the dark terror behind transmuted to a bright hope ahead, the bright hope becoming a popular, perhaps someday a national, delusion. Embedded invisibly in it would remain the ancient darkness, too awful to face, thriving, emerging in disguise, vigorous, evil, destructive, inextricable." A very different take on darkness as evil and destructive. But it still seems to link darkness to ancient religion, with light linked to the delusions of more modern or organized religion. Still kind of a swipe at "light," I guess. Laura -----Original Message----- >From: Mark Kohut >"So the darkness becomes the light, and the stillness the dancing"---"East Coker",T.S. >Eliot.  > >--- On Wed, 7/2/08, Dave Monroe wrote: > >"the Greeks called her Νυξ" > >NYX was the goddess of the night, one of the ancient Protogenoi >(first-born elemental gods).... > >http://www.theoi.com/Protogenos/Nyx.html > >The fragments of Orphic cosmogonies given by Eudemos, and Plato, and >Lydus do not quite agree, but at least Night, Oceanus, and Thetys are >elementary beings, and the first of them in order of existence was >probably Night.... > >http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04405c.htm > >In Greek mythology, Nyx (Νύξ, Nox in Roman translation) was the >primordial goddess of the night. A shadowy figure, Night stood at or >near the beginning of creation, and was the mother of personified gods >such as Sleep and Death. Her appearances in mythology are sparse, but >reveal her as a figure of exceptional power.... > >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nyx_(mythology) > >Night took on an even more important role in several fragmentary poems >attributed to Orpheus. In them, Night, rather than Chaos, is the first >principle. Night occupies a cave or adyton, in which she gives >oracles. Kronos - who is chained within, asleep and drunk on honey - >dreams and prophesies. Outside the cave, Adrastea clashes cymbals and >beats upon her tympanon, moving the entire universe in an ecstatic >dance to the rhythm of Nyx's chanting. Phanes - the strange, >monstrous, hermaphrodite Orphic demiurge - was the child or father of >Nyx. > >Night is also the first principle in the opening chorus of >Aristophanes's Birds, which may be Orphic in inspiration.... > >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nyx_(mythology)#Other_Greek_texts > >http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e3/William-Adolphe_Bouguereau_%281825-1905%29_-_La_Nuit_%281883%29.jpg > From kelber at mindspring.com Fri Jul 4 11:49:18 2008 From: kelber at mindspring.com (kelber at mindspring.com) Date: Fri, 4 Jul 2008 12:49:18 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Message-ID: <10519155.1215190158464.JavaMail.root@elwamui-cypress.atl.sa.earthlink.net> It's hard to imagine TRP griping, "those annoying women, always blabbing ..." Speaking as a human, it's hard to see why talking is considered a negative quality (though it clearly is -- in the US, anyway). It's one of the essential qualities separating humans from animals. Is it a particularly American idea, by way of the Puritans, that Silence is Golden? In the convent, giving up talking is the greatest sacrifice a woman can make. Father Ponko (?) is comparing it to the sacrifice of hair (mere vanity). Talking, by comparison, "is a form of breathing," presumably a sacrifice of a woman's essential being, rather than her outward femininity. Cyprian's aspirations to be a woman are meant to be a step up the spiritual ladder, an embrace of the female principles of rebirth and regeneration. Still, I agree that TRP edges a little close to the negative stereotype of women as talkers. Forgivable, because TRP sees talking as positive. Most of his characters are talkers, with Cyprian being arguably more talkative than Yashmeen or Reef. Compare him to Deuce Kindred, who's inarticulate. Laura -----Original Message----- >From: Mark Kohut >  >Dave M. quoted: > >"'Talking, for women, is a form of breathing'" > >Compare p. 501: "a hundred women ... all silent." Tying >Noellyn/Yashmeen to Cyprian? > >Hey, anyone want to comment on TRP risking/enacting a major, largely negative, [?] stereeotype about women?......Especially our female p-listers?................ >  >However, isn't the concept of talking for women, via the metaphor, a positive quality here? > > From markekohut at yahoo.com Fri Jul 4 12:08:41 2008 From: markekohut at yahoo.com (Mark Kohut) Date: Fri, 4 Jul 2008 10:08:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: AtDtDA(34): Message-ID: <199865.62616.qm@web38408.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Nyx is one source of the positive valences to "It's always night OR...".............??   Existence itself is sourced in Nyx?...................................... And Nyx as the mother of Sleep and Death means those are a part of existence itself (so to speak)? "Good because existence itself has to be or we got nothin' at all?   And, as Laura remarks, light worries a good guy like Cyprian because he fears, as throughout Pynchon, what is supposed to be unalloyed Good---light----often isn't........   I will say again that perhaps the real dichotomy with night and light is natural vs. man-made?......when we humans "make light", it is not always a Good.....maybe in Pynchon's total vision it is almost always a Bad?.................remember and connect to electric streetlights from V. pervasively thru "Against the Day"???/ --- On Fri, 7/4/08, kelber at mindspring.com wrote: From: kelber at mindspring.com Subject: Re: AtDtDA(34): To: pynchon-l at waste.org Date: Friday, July 4, 2008, 12:08 PM Nyx seems to be derived from the Egyptian goddess Nut: "Her name means Night. Some of the titles of Nut were Coverer of the Sky, She Who Protects, Mistress of All, and She Who Holds a Thousand Souls ... Nut was the goddess of the sky and all heavenly bodies, a symbol of resurrection and rebirth. According to the Egyptians, the heavenly bodies—such as the sun—would be swallowed, traverse the inside of her belly through the night, and be reborn out of her uterus at dawn." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nut_(goddess) In Cyprian's "What is born of the light?" there's an implication that the answer might involve evil or destruction (phosgene, for example). What is born of the night (Nut) is benevolent, life-affirming. Laura >From: Dave Monroe >"the Greeks called her Νυξ" > >NYX was the goddess of the night, one of the ancient Protogenoi >(first-born elemental gods).... > >http://www.theoi.com/Protogenos/Nyx.html > >The fragments of Orphic cosmogonies given by Eudemos, and Plato, and >Lydus do not quite agree, but at least Night, Oceanus, and Thetys are >elementary beings, and the first of them in order of existence was >probably Night.... > >http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04405c.htm > >In Greek mythology, Nyx (Νύξ, Nox in Roman translation) was the >primordial goddess of the night. A shadowy figure, Night stood at or >near the beginning of creation, and was the mother of personified gods >such as Sleep and Death. Her appearances in mythology are sparse, but >reveal her as a figure of exceptional power.... > >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nyx_(mythology) > >Night took on an even more important role in several fragmentary poems >attributed to Orpheus. In them, Night, rather than Chaos, is the first >principle. Night occupies a cave or adyton, in which she gives >oracles. Kronos - who is chained within, asleep and drunk on honey - >dreams and prophesies. Outside the cave, Adrastea clashes cymbals and >beats upon her tympanon, moving the entire universe in an ecstatic >dance to the rhythm of Nyx's chanting. Phanes - the strange, >monstrous, hermaphrodite Orphic demiurge - was the child or father of >Nyx. > >Night is also the first principle in the opening chorus of >Aristophanes's Birds, which may be Orphic in inspiration.... > >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nyx_(mythology)#Other_Greek_texts > >http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e3/William-Adolphe_Bouguereau_%281825-1905%29_-_La_Nuit_%281883%29.jpg > >Vs. ... > >http://against-the-day.pynchonwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=ATD_946-975#Page_959 > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From markekohut at yahoo.com Fri Jul 4 13:19:50 2008 From: markekohut at yahoo.com (Mark Kohut) Date: Fri, 4 Jul 2008 11:19:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Misc. more on Chance Message-ID: <788580.14396.qm@web38402.mail.mud.yahoo.com> I could post a lot from/about "Something For Nothing", about Luck/Chance in America...........I have posted some.........................suffice to say it illumines some of P's themes.......Chums of..........anti-deterministic universe............Yashmeen's roulette system.........Luck as counterevidence of Calvinistic predestination............. luck is for preterites........................................................................................   This piece about the !Loteria! or the Ritual of Chance shows its pervasiveness in Mexico--important in "Against the Day"---where the lit crit writer came from.   Speaking of an anti-deterministic universe, he ends with: Albert Einstein once said: “God doesn’t play dice with the universe.” That isn’t true. With us He plays Looooh-teh-ree-ah.   Enjoy if interested enough. http://www.bu.edu/agni/essays/print/2003/58-stavans.html     -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From markekohut at yahoo.com Fri Jul 4 14:34:06 2008 From: markekohut at yahoo.com (Mark Kohut) Date: Fri, 4 Jul 2008 12:34:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: AtDtDA(34): That Which Dwells In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <896671.91160.qm@web38403.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Might this be one not-exactly-literal (since we are talking concepts) way to understand something else in Pynchon.............   Pentecost is the Word (of god); Shekinah, wordless indwelling of God,   If the Feminine reflects the wordless indwelling--or else Shekinah would be invisible---are the silent frocks a kind of sexy joke/homage to the wordless indwelling of the Feminine? --- On Thu, 7/3/08, Dave Monroe wrote: From: Dave Monroe Subject: AtDtDA(34): That Which Dwells To: "pynchon -l" Date: Thursday, July 3, 2008, 8:30 PM "'You are familiar with the idea of the Shekinah--That which dwells?'" (AtD, Pt. IV, p. 960) "the Shekinah--That which dwells" God's Presence, Kingdom The Shekhinah is a Talmudic concept representing God's dwelling and immanence in the created world.... According to a Rabbinic tradition, the Shekhinah shares in the exiles of the Jewish people. Therefore, the redemption of the people of Israel is inextricably linked to the remedying of an alienation within God him/herself, introducing a bold new element into traditional Jewish Messianic eschatology. It is through the Shekhinah that humans can experience the Divine. The passivity of the Shekhinah is often emphasized (equated with its femininity), as the recipient of forces from the higher Sefirot.... http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Judaism/Shekhinah.html http://www.ucalgary.ca/~elsegal/Sefirot/Shekhinah.html Shekhinah ... is the English spelling of a feminine Hebrew language word that means the dwelling or settling, and is used to denote the dwelling or settling presence of God, especially in the Temple in Jerusalem. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shekinah Shekhinah is derived from the Hebrew verb שכן. In Biblical Hebrew the word means literally to settle, inhabit, or dwell, and is used frequently in the Hebrew Bible.... the Shekhinah refers to a dwelling or settling in a special sense, a dwelling or settling of divine presence, to the effect that, while in proximity to the Shekhinah, the connection to God is more readily perceivable. ... Shekhinah means "the presence of God" ... practically the same as the Greek word "Parousia also a feminine word (literally: "presence") which is used in a similar way for "Divine Presence". http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shekinah#Etymology The Latin incarnatio (in: caro, flesh) corresponds to the Greek sarkosis, or ensarkosis, which words depend on John (i, 14) kai ho Logos sarx egeneto, "And the Word was made flesh".... http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07706b.htm "And the Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us, and we saw his glory, the glory as of the Father's only Son, full of grace and truth." --John 1:14 http://bible.cc/john/1-14.htm http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/john/john1.htm The incarnate Word is the new mode of God's presence among his people. The Greek verb has the same consonants as the Aramaic word for God's presence (Shekinah).... http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/john/john1.htm#foot9 "sshhhghhh" (GR, Pt. IV, p. 680) http://waste.org/mail/?list=pynchon-l&month=0007&msg=47435 http://waste.org/mail/?list=pynchon-l&month=0803&msg=125002 "British Kabbalism" See, e.g., ... http://mqup.mcgill.ca/book.php?bookid=109 http://books.google.com/books?id=5jSQhrao540C "the High Priestess" The High Priestess (II) is the second trump or Major Arcana card in most traditional Tarot decks.... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_High_Priestess She has the lunar crescent at her feet, a horned diadem on her head, with a globe in the middle place, and a large solar cross on her breast. The scroll in her hands is inscribed with the word Tora, signifying the Greater Law, the Secret Law and the second sense of the Word. It is partly covered by her mantle, to shew that some things are implied and some spoken. She is seated between the white and black pillars--J. and B.--of the mystic Temple, and the veil of the Temple is behind her: it is embroidered with palms and pomegranates. The vestments are flowing and gauzy, and the mantle suggests light--a shimmering radiance. She has been called occult Science on the threshold of the Sanctuary of Isis, but she is really the Secret Church, the House which is of God and man. She represents also the Second Marriage of the Prince who is no longer of this world; she is the spiritual Bride and Mother, the daughter of the stars and the Higher Garden of Eden. She is, in fine, the Queen of the borrowed light, but this is the light of all. She is the Moon nourished by the milk of the Supernal Mother. In a manner, she is also the Supernal Mother herself--that is to say, she is the bright reflection. It is in this sense of reflection that her truest and highest name in bolism is Shekinah--the co-habiting glory. According to Kabalism, there is a Shekinah both above and below. In the superior world it is called Binah, the Supernal Understanding which reflects to the emanations that are beneath. In the lower world it is MaIkuth--that world being, for this purpose, understood as a blessed Kingdom that with which it is made blessed being the Indwelling Glory. Mystically speaking, the Shekinah is the Spiritual Bride of the just man, and when he reads the Law she gives the Divine meaning. There are some respects in which this card is the highest and holiest of the Greater Arcana. http://www.sacred-texts.com/tarot/pkt/pktar02.htm http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_High_Priestess#Kabbalistic_Approach And see as well, e.g., ... http://trionfi.com/tarot/cards/02-popess/ http://www.tarothermit.com/priestess.htm "shiny black accoutrements" http://against-the-day.pynchonwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=ATD_678-694#Page_690 http://against-the-day.pynchonwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=ATD_678-694#Page_678 "'When god hides his face'" "He hath said in his heart, God hath forgotten: he hideth his face; he will never see it." --Psalms 10:11 (KJV) http://bible.cc/psalms/10-11.htm "Without her to reflect" "For now we see through a glass, darkly ..." --1 Corinthians 13:12 http://biblecc.com/1_corinthians/13-12.htm "She is absolutely of the essence" Tres deconstructive, non? Oui ... "a canone of Cosmas of Jerusalem" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canon_(music) ? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cosmas_of_Maiuma "vertigo was somehow designed into the place" Cf. ... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Westin_Bonaventure_Hotel http://www.eng.fju.edu.tw/Literary_Criticism/postmodernism/examples/bonadventure.htm Talk about reflection ... "some invisible, imponderable medium" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luminiferous_aether "The mooned planet ... the planetary electron" ? "a form of death" ... To die: to sleep; No more; and by a sleep to say we end The heart-ache and the thousand natural shocks That flesh is heir to, 'tis a consummation Devoutly to be wish'd. To die, to sleep; To sleep: perchance to dream: ay, there's the rub; For in that sleep of death what dreams may come When we have shuffled off this mortal coil, Must give us pause ... (Hamlet, III.i) http://shakespeare.mit.edu/hamlet/hamlet.3.1.html And see as well, e.g., ... http://www.theosophy-nw.org/theosnw/death/de-gdp5.htm -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kelber at mindspring.com Fri Jul 4 15:07:27 2008 From: kelber at mindspring.com (kelber at mindspring.com) Date: Fri, 4 Jul 2008 16:07:27 -0400 (GMT-04:00) Subject: Misc. more on Chance Message-ID: <24952461.1215202047814.JavaMail.root@elwamui-cypress.atl.sa.earthlink.net> The Elect don't need luck -- they've got money. The Preterite need luck, but rarely have it. How much of a force is it in anyone's life? Laura -----Original Message----- >From: Mark Kohut e > > >I could post a lot from/about "Something For Nothing", about Luck/Chance in America...........I have posted some.........................suffice to say it illumines >some of P's themes.......Chums of..........anti-deterministic universe............Yashmeen's >roulette system.........Luck as counterevidence of Calvinistic predestination............. >luck is for preterites........................................................................................ >  >This piece about the !Loteria! or the Ritual of Chance shows its pervasiveness in Mexico--important in "Against the Day"---where the lit crit writer came from. >  >Speaking of an anti-deterministic universe, he ends with: >Albert Einstein once said: “God doesn’t play dice with the universe.” That isn’t true. With us He plays Looooh-teh-ree-ah. >  >Enjoy if interested enough. >http://www.bu.edu/agni/essays/print/2003/58-stavans.html >  >  > > From markekohut at yahoo.com Fri Jul 4 15:39:28 2008 From: markekohut at yahoo.com (Mark Kohut) Date: Fri, 4 Jul 2008 13:39:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Misc. more on Chance In-Reply-To: <24952461.1215202047814.JavaMail.root@elwamui-cypress.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <70002.1727.qm@web38408.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Perhaps about as much force as The Counterforce in "Gravity's Rainbow"? Hardly enough, as has been said................. --- On Fri, 7/4/08, kelber at mindspring.com wrote: From: kelber at mindspring.com Subject: Re: Misc. more on Chance To: pynchon-l at waste.org Date: Friday, July 4, 2008, 4:07 PM The Elect don't need luck -- they've got money. The Preterite need luck, but rarely have it. How much of a force is it in anyone's life? Laura -----Original Message----- >From: Mark Kohut e > > >I could post a lot from/about "Something For Nothing", about Luck/Chance in America...........I have posted some.........................suffice to say it illumines >some of P's themes.......Chums of..........anti-deterministic universe............Yashmeen's >roulette system.........Luck as counterevidence of Calvinistic predestination............. >luck is for preterites........................................................................................ >  >This piece about the !Loteria! or the Ritual of Chance shows its pervasiveness in Mexico--important in "Against the Day"---where the lit crit writer came from. >  >Speaking of an anti-deterministic universe, he ends with: >Albert Einstein once said: “God doesn’t play dice with the universe.” That isn’t true. With us He plays Looooh-teh-ree-ah. >  >Enjoy if interested enough. >http://www.bu.edu/agni/essays/print/2003/58-stavans.html >  >  > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From against.the.dave at gmail.com Fri Jul 4 17:30:00 2008 From: against.the.dave at gmail.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Fri, 4 Jul 2008 17:30:00 -0500 Subject: The world of plastic Message-ID: Friday, July 04, 2008 The world of plastic Here are a few plastic things I put together. I had fond memories of Thomas Pynchon's Gravity's Rainbow, which has a lot of references to the plastics industry, until I re-read it recently. Pynchon produces some mind-bending nuggets you won't find anywhere else, but you have to pick them out of hundreds of pages of overindulgence and forced mystification. The chief attraction is witnessing his mind at work, making connections like it was plugged into the Internet -- a few decades before the Internet existed. And that brings me back to plastic. It comes from oil, which comes from dead dinosaurs and mosquitoes, and sunflowers and saber-toothed tigers drowned in tar pits. In the early days of the Oil Age, long before computers and nano-technology, chemists were stringing molecules together to make plastics. The birth of plastic was the birth of consumerism, and for the first time the masses could afford to surround themselves with piles of manufactured junk and taste an emptiness previously reserved for aristocracy. And the most mind-bending part is: add atoms to a molecule in one way and you get something good for toothbrush bristle or for lubricating your car; add atoms in another way and you get things that lubricate the mind, like LSD or an antidepressant. As much as we hate plastic -- non-biodegradable, synthetic to the touch and eye -- we live in its world. Unless someone's reading this to you, you're looking at plastic right now. We've shaken off the solid world of rocks and dirt, wrapped ourselves in plastic and blasted off for space. I'm not a religious person, but: plastic is just a stage in the shedding of physical form, as the life-force we represent seeks to control its destiny across infinity. I would guess it's our imperative to continue shedding these forms, break free of physicality, take flight, and merge with the light. http://www.restlus.com/2008/07/world-of-plastic.html From markekohut at yahoo.com Sat Jul 5 07:11:45 2008 From: markekohut at yahoo.com (Mark Kohut) Date: Sat, 5 Jul 2008 05:11:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Fw: NYTimes.com: Why Fly When You Can Float? Message-ID: <881014.58705.qm@web38404.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- On Sat, 7/5/08, markekohut at yahoo.com wrote: From: markekohut at yahoo.com Subject: NYTimes.com: Why Fly When You Can Float? To: markekohut at yahoo.com Date: Saturday, July 5, 2008, 8:10 AM #yiv1118964210 footer { font-family:arial, helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:10px;color:#000000;} #yiv1118964210 td.footer { font-family:arial, helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:10px;color:#000000;} #yiv1118964210 a.footer { font-family:arial, helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:10px;color:#000066;} #yiv1118964210 font.emailHeader { font-family:arial, helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:13px;color:#CC6633;font-weight:bold;padding-bottom:4px;} #yiv1118964210 bgc1 { background-color:#F5F4F4;} #yiv1118964210 td.bgc1 { background-color:#F5F4F4;} #yiv1118964210 bgc2 { background-color:#F8F8F8;} #yiv1118964210 td.bgc2 { background-color:#F8F8F8;} #yiv1118964210 { font-family:arial, helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:12px;} #yiv1118964210 td.bodycopy { font-family:arial, helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:12px;} #yiv1118964210 a.bodycopy { font-family:arial, helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:12px;color:#000066;} #yiv1118964210 small { font-family:arial, helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:11px;} #yiv1118964210 td.small { font-family:arial, helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:11px;} #yiv1118964210 a.small { font-family:arial, helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:11px;color:#000066;} #yiv1118964210 advertisement { font-family:arial, helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:9px;color:#999999;} #yiv1118964210 td.advertisement { font-family:arial, helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:9px;color:#999999;} #yiv1118964210 a.advertisement { font-family:arial, helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:9px;color:#000066;} #yiv1118964210 contextadbg { border-top:1px solid #BFBFBF;border-bottom:1px solid #BFBFBF;margin-bottom:3px;} #yiv1118964210 contextadheader { font-family:arial, helvetica, sans-serif;color:#98BC61;font-size:11px;font-weight:bold;} #yiv1118964210 contextaddisclaimer { font-family:arial, helvetica, sans-serif;color:#999999;font-size:10px;padding-bottom:8px;} #yiv1118964210 contextadtext { font-family:arial, helvetica, sans-serif;color:#000000;font-size:11px;padding-top:8px;padding-bottom:8px;padding-left:11px;padding-right:11px;margin-bottom:3px;} #yiv1118964210 contextAdMiscText { font-family:arial, helvetica, sans-serif;color:#000000;font-size:11px;padding-left:11px;padding-right:11px;} This page was sent to you by:  markekohut at yahoo.com BUSINESS / WORLD BUSINESS   | July 5, 2008 Why Fly When You Can Float? By JOHN TAGLIABUE As the cost of fuel soars and the pressure mounts to reduce carbon dioxide emissions, several schemes for a new generation of airship are being considered. 1. Op-Ed Columnist: Rove’s Third Term 2. Editorial: New and Not Improved 3. Well: The 11 Best Foods You Aren’t Eating 4. Op-Ed Columnist: The Luckiest Girl 5. 36 Hours in Pittsburgh »  Go to Complete List Advertisement FROM THE AUTHOR OF FIGHT CLUB - CHOKEWinner of the Special Jury Prize at the 2008 Sundance Film Festival, CHOKE is a wickedly colorful dark comedy starring Sam Rockwell and Anjelica Huston. In Select Theatres September 26th. Click here to watch trailer Copyright 2008  The New York Times Company | Privacy Policy   -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From markekohut at yahoo.com Sat Jul 5 09:28:06 2008 From: markekohut at yahoo.com (Mark Kohut) Date: Sat, 5 Jul 2008 07:28:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Fw: NYTimes.com: Why Fly When You Can Float? Message-ID: <144795.76419.qm@web38401.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- On Sat, 7/5/08, markekohut at yahoo.com wrote: From: markekohut at yahoo.com Subject: NYTimes.com: Why Fly When You Can Float? To: markekohut at yahoo.com Date: Saturday, July 5, 2008, 8:10 AM #yiv272764168 footer { font-family:arial, helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:10px;color:#000000;} #yiv272764168 td.footer { font-family:arial, helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:10px;color:#000000;} #yiv272764168 a.footer { font-family:arial, helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:10px;color:#000066;} #yiv272764168 font.emailHeader { font-family:arial, helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:13px;color:#CC6633;font-weight:bold;padding-bottom:4px;} #yiv272764168 bgc1 { background-color:#F5F4F4;} #yiv272764168 td.bgc1 { background-color:#F5F4F4;} #yiv272764168 bgc2 { background-color:#F8F8F8;} #yiv272764168 td.bgc2 { background-color:#F8F8F8;} #yiv272764168 { font-family:arial, helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:12px;} #yiv272764168 td.bodycopy { font-family:arial, helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:12px;} #yiv272764168 a.bodycopy { font-family:arial, helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:12px;color:#000066;} #yiv272764168 small { font-family:arial, helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:11px;} #yiv272764168 td.small { font-family:arial, helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:11px;} #yiv272764168 a.small { font-family:arial, helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:11px;color:#000066;} #yiv272764168 advertisement { font-family:arial, helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:9px;color:#999999;} #yiv272764168 td.advertisement { font-family:arial, helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:9px;color:#999999;} #yiv272764168 a.advertisement { font-family:arial, helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:9px;color:#000066;} #yiv272764168 contextadbg { border-top:1px solid #BFBFBF;border-bottom:1px solid #BFBFBF;margin-bottom:3px;} #yiv272764168 contextadheader { font-family:arial, helvetica, sans-serif;color:#98BC61;font-size:11px;font-weight:bold;} #yiv272764168 contextaddisclaimer { font-family:arial, helvetica, sans-serif;color:#999999;font-size:10px;padding-bottom:8px;} #yiv272764168 contextadtext { font-family:arial, helvetica, sans-serif;color:#000000;font-size:11px;padding-top:8px;padding-bottom:8px;padding-left:11px;padding-right:11px;margin-bottom:3px;} #yiv272764168 contextAdMiscText { font-family:arial, helvetica, sans-serif;color:#000000;font-size:11px;padding-left:11px;padding-right:11px;} This page was sent to you by:  markekohut at yahoo.com BUSINESS / WORLD BUSINESS   | July 5, 2008 Why Fly When You Can Float? By JOHN TAGLIABUE As the cost of fuel soars and the pressure mounts to reduce carbon dioxide emissions, several schemes for a new generation of airship are being considered. 1. Op-Ed Columnist: Rove’s Third Term 2. Editorial: New and Not Improved 3. Well: The 11 Best Foods You Aren’t Eating 4. Op-Ed Columnist: The Luckiest Girl 5. 36 Hours in Pittsburgh »  Go to Complete List Advertisement FROM THE AUTHOR OF FIGHT CLUB - CHOKEWinner of the Special Jury Prize at the 2008 Sundance Film Festival, CHOKE is a wickedly colorful dark comedy starring Sam Rockwell and Anjelica Huston. In Select Theatres September 26th. Click here to watch trailer Copyright 2008  The New York Times Company | Privacy Policy   -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From markekohut at yahoo.com Sat Jul 5 09:49:38 2008 From: markekohut at yahoo.com (Mark Kohut) Date: Sat, 5 Jul 2008 07:49:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: AtD (34) p. 963 Message-ID: <45036.89837.qm@web38401.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Each day would show Reef, Yashmeen and Ljubica only a further narrowing of choices...   Leitmotif expreseed elsewhere in exactly those words................   "pressed by the movements of forces"......................'they're coming in from all directions".   History is Fate, not freedom (for them)......... -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bekker2 at mac.com Sat Jul 5 10:31:39 2008 From: bekker2 at mac.com (Bekah) Date: Sat, 05 Jul 2008 08:31:39 -0700 Subject: AtD: (35) - (36)? Message-ID: <235505EB-0E20-46B7-9B84-181C07E04270@mac.com> Okay, so here I sit with most of the stuff ready for my supposed start tomorrow. But my section is (36) and I've seen nothing on (35). I'm going to post a synopsis of anecdotal type stuff for (35) and get it on with (36) because I leave on vacation at some unknown time later this month (I hope - this depends on doctors and my next appt is Tuesday. (I don't know what's wrong - they're doing exploratory type things.) If this is not okay send a screaming across the cybers at me. Bekah From markekohut at yahoo.com Sat Jul 5 16:26:40 2008 From: markekohut at yahoo.com (Mark Kohut) Date: Sat, 5 Jul 2008 14:26:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: coffee in M & D, maybe?, and its whole relation to Pynchon and AtD Message-ID: <940166.31668.qm@web38407.mail.mud.yahoo.com> It should be noted that Ekirch’s conclusion about the origins, if not the inadequacies, of seamless sleep was in dispute even before the publication of his book. In “Caffeine and the Coming of the Enlightenment,” a brisk, informative essay that appeared in a 2003 issue of Raritan, Roger Schmidt, an English professor at Idaho State, stands Ekirch’s argument on its head. According to Schmidt, it was the introduction of caffeine and coffee houses in the late seventeenth century, along with the practice of late-night reading, the development of the first accurate clocks and timepieces, and the consolidation of the Protestant ethos (“Time is money”), that worked to devalue the idea of sleep. And this, in turn, “created a demand for better nocturnal lighting.” Just what we need: another chicken-or-egg argument. Never mind. Ekirch is a man on a mission and, to a remarkable degree, he has reclaimed that portion of the circadian cycle which historians have traditionally neglected. He has emptied night’s pockets, and laid the contents out before us. If the resulting work, with all its proverbs, adages, anecdotes, facts, and figures, smells a little of the lamp, it’s a fair trade-off. “At Day’s Close” serves to remind us of night’s ancient mystery, of the real reason we reach for the light switch. Ultimately, it’s not the wattage but Dante’s lustro sopra that we yearn for—God’s grandeur flaming out “like shining from shook foil.” The night may also be His handiwork, but who really likes the dark except vampires and people with sensitive retinas? Darkness suggests ignorance and hopelessness, and, as a symbol of despair or bad tidings, it can’t be beat. Would Sir Edward Grey, the British Foreign Secretary, be remembered half so well had he not mused, after seeing a lamplighter turning up the gas lamps outside his office on the eve of the First World War, “The lamps are going out all over Europe; we shall not see them lit again in our lifetime”? No one wants the lights to go out, and all our valiant attempts to illuminate the night are merely fearful expressions of the permanent darkness that awaits. ♦ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From markekohut at yahoo.com Sat Jul 5 17:01:11 2008 From: markekohut at yahoo.com (Mark Kohut) Date: Sat, 5 Jul 2008 15:01:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Fw: Re: AtDtDA(34): "What is born of the light?"--Cyprian Message-ID: <720220.84946.qm@web38402.mail.mud.yahoo.com> yes, destruction yet, in Pynchon's layers, light also resonateswith, since Augustine, God as lumen, fire....--U. Eco.Here as in GR, Pynchon asks What? Which? With no escluded middle, are BOTH born of light?....Comment welcomed.  -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bekker2 at mac.com Sat Jul 5 19:11:33 2008 From: bekker2 at mac.com (Becky Alexander) Date: Sat, 05 Jul 2008 17:11:33 -0700 Subject: ATDTDA: (35) Part 1 - such as it is Message-ID: <319BFBE6-0FFB-4CCF-BDEB-A3D41FB7711A@mac.com> Hi all, Since it appears there is no movement on "ATD: (35)" I'm going to send what I've found on the Pynchon-Wiki, and a bit from elsewhere, for pages 976 - 1000. It's not too bad on the Mexican Revolution (although that's really complex) and I'm not up to doing that in addition to my own Ludlow, counter-Earth, Chumboys-in-love and moving pictures sections. (There is a bit of new stuff here, though.) I'll take on pages 1000-1007 as the first section of (36) - but still called (35) - more completely because they go with those chapters very nicely. Then I'll pick (36) up tomorrow because I'm (very hopefully) leaving on a jet plane to see my family in the great northland in two weeks or so and for two weeks or so - and then I'm back in school. PLEASE!!!! Feel free to comment in any way you choose. :-) AtD - pages 976-999 late 1912-1913 http://against-the-day.pynchonwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=ATD_976-999 http://chumpsofchoice.blogspot.com/2007/10/what-i-tell-you-three- times-is-true.html The *** s are where I've inserted some stuff not on either of the above pages. ********************************************* Page 976 - *** Stray and Ewball going to Denver to see Ewball's wealthy parents, Moline and (some name) Senior, "elder," Oust, for whom Mayva works. "... the coalfield troubles in southern Colorado..." The United Mine Workers called a stike in Colorado's coalfields north of Denver in 1910 winning a 10 percent wage increase for ten thousand Colorado miners. The union's real target was the larger southern coalfield. A state-wide coal strike was called in September 1913 and lasted 14 months resulted in the Ludlow Massacre of April 20, 1914, in which 20 people were killed. *** (SEE "ATD (36)" coming) *** Stray's been collecting ways to help people with medical stuff "... began in the days of the Madero revolution..." (she will use these supplies in the days to come) "... the Madero revolution..." in 1910, out of Mexico, led by Madera. Ramifications felt in El Paso, where a Senate Committee investigated in 1912 and found Standard Oil partly responsible. Relevant?--a Mormon settlement was investigated as part of the investigation. The Madero (Mexican) Revolution was brought on by, among other factors, tremendous disagreement among the Mexican people over the dictatorship of President Porfirio Diaz. Madero was one of the strongest believers that Diaz should renounce his power and not seek re-election in 1910. He was jailed by Diaz but was able to escape on October 4, 1910, to the US. In San Antonio, Texas, he issued his Plan of San Luis Potosi proclaiming the 1910 election null and void and called for an armed revolution on November 20, 1910 against the "illegitimate" presidency of Diaz. Madero also promised agrarian land reforms to attract Mexico's peasants to his cause. The revolution spread, the Maderista troops, with Pancho Villa in the North and Emiliano Zapata in the South, defeated the army of Diaz within six months, and Diaz resigned on May 25, 1911. Francisco Madero was elected President on October 1, 1911 and assumed power on November 6. http://www.mexconnect.com/MEX/austin/revolution.html http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francisco_I._Madero (better) ********************************************* Page 977 cross-gable Two perpendicular gable roofs; pic and more *** Moline Oust (Ewball's mother) styles herself after Baby Doe Tabor, the Leadville madam (the Ousts had been living in Leadville). *** http://www.babydoetabor.com/ *** Stray plays on the Steinway : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steinway_&_Sons "I'm Going..Salome" Stanley Murphy, lyricist, written before 1909. "I'm going to get myself a black Salome" Composer: Wynn, Ed 1886-1966 Lyrics: Big Bill Jefferson a railroad man (first line of text) Contributors: Murphy, Stanley 1875-1919 Publication Date: 1908 For voice and piano. Cover ill.: African American man watching a belly dancer. Photo of Ed. Wynn. http://tinyurl.com/5maqr8 majolica A particular type of white colour glaze for earthenware ceramics that was known for its ability to mimic (poorly) historically expensive porcelain. Its name comes from the practice of importing it into Europe through the ports of the Balearic island Majorca from the Mid- east. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Majolica ********************************************* Page 978 'Tá bien, no te preocupes, m'hija Spanish: It's all right, don't trouble yourself, my dear. Galluses a pair of suspenders for trousers. "Braces" in British English. Czolgosz Leon Frank Czolgosz (January 24, 1873 – October 29, 1901) was the assassin of U.S. President William McKinley. In the last few years of his short life he was heavily influenced by anarchists like Emma Goldman and Alexander Berkman. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Czolgosz President McKinley William McKinley, Jr. (January 29, 1843 – September 14, 1901) was the 25th President of the United States. from Wikipedia McKinley as president placed the US on the gold standard (remember Dally and the poster for bimetallism). One thousand Fast Lake Navigation, 158 Fast Express, and 206 Automobile Inverts http://www.filbert.com/stamplistopedia/us_inverts/default.htm Also, an interesting little online tidbit which references this stamp with the inverted center to which this page refers. These misprinted ("alternate") stamps, associated with Anarchism, and the philatelically-named Jenny Invert with her similar association to the Anarchist collective at Yz-le-Bans, inevitably call to mind the subtly altered stamps of the anarchist (or at any rate anti- government) Trystero in Lot 49, postage in an alternative, underground communication system. We have, then, the theme of underground, alternative communication introduced again (the first time in AtD is with the London gas pipes). Another philatelically- named female character is Penny Black. http://against-the-day.pynchonwiki.com/wiki/index.php? title=ATD_976-999#Page_978 ********************************************* Page 979 "Mark Hanna's miserable stooge..." Mark Hanna (September 24, 1837–February 15, 1904), born Marcus Alonzo Hanna, was an industrialist and Republican politician from Ohio. He rose to fame as the campaign manager of the successful Republican Presidential candidate William McKinley in the U.S. Presidential election of 1896, in what is considered the forerunner of the modern political campaign, and subsequently became one of the most powerful members of the U.S. Senate. From Wikipedia. Obviously, the stooge refers to McKinley. Strongly suggestive of a parallel to Karl Rove and his miserable stooge. *** Very funny scene here with Ewball stepping on his father's head - *** "... language unfit for the sensitive reader..." either TPR is having a small fit of the intrusive narrator/author or he's mimicking the literature of the day - I'd say the latter but this is not a Chums part and I'm not sure the western genre lit did that. ? *** Mayva adds the ring of a Remington .22 round to the melee. (she'd run out of B.B.s) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BB_gun#History henriettia A fine diagonal twilled (ribbed) dress fabric made with silk warp (vertical threads) and fine worsted (firm-textured) weft (horizontal threads), which makes it resemble Cashmere cloth. Characteristics: Originally consisted of worsted filling and silk warp. Today, it can be found in a variety of blends. It has excellent drapability. It's weight and quality vary with fibres, however, when created with silk and wool it is lustrous and soft. Uses: Dress goods. Textile Dictionary "Œdipal spectacle" (refers to Ewball stepping on his father's head.) From the myth of Oedipus Rex, about a returning son killing his father, rendered infamous through Freud's interpretation of its significance to men and rendered famous by the Sophocles plays in the 5th century B.C. And perhaps a Pynchon in-joke of sorts. The protagonist of Lot 49 is Oedipa Maas (it has been suggested: "More Oedipal"), also in trouble over stamps; in fact "Lot 49" refers to the auction lot of Trystero- altered stamps in the collection of Pierce Inverarity (it has been suggested: "Inverse Rarity"), for whose estate Oedipa is executor. A few pages from here the issue of alternate communication forms will be introduced; these references to the issues in Lot 49 could serve to alert the experienced reader of Pynchon to their importance in AtD. http://against-the-day.pynchonwiki.com/wiki/index.php? title=ATD_976-999#Page_978 ********************************************* Page 981 "... the one with the destiny..." Do we learn anything about this odd Oust child? (Presumably Ewball?). No, this one is apparently a little child when Ewball is a grownup. Maybe a child born with a caul? It would not take much of a prophet to say that such a child has a destiny. *** Some child born in the early 1900s, lived in Denver for at least awhile - money from mining - goes on to become ___________? tintypes A cheap, common and durable form of black and white photographic image where a sensitised collodion is poured upon a thin sheet of soot blackened tin, exposed and developed. Often hand-coloured. The most notable practitioners and teachers of the process in the US are Mark Osterman and France Scully Osterman. *** These were used a lot prior to the US Civil War - I have a photo of one from my family on my web-site - great-great uncle Paul Mikkelson in Civil War regalia. http://homepage.mac.com/bekker2/familyg/Mpaulsonslattun.html (scroll down a bit) ********************************************* From bekker2 at mac.com Sat Jul 5 20:32:11 2008 From: bekker2 at mac.com (Bekah) Date: Sat, 05 Jul 2008 18:32:11 -0700 Subject: ATDTDA: (35) Part II Message-ID: (My sender addie is messing up - sorry.) And the overview of (35) Part II - pgs 982-999 (again, from the Pynchon Wiki unless noted with ***s. ********************************************* Page 982 *** And we now move to Frank in Mexico for the continuing Revolution (about 2 years into a 20 - year civil war) against the Diaz government and then against the Madero government and then ... (see below). This is about 1911/12. http://ic.ucsc.edu/~ksgruesz/ltel190f/PynchonGrid.htm *** More on the revolution: http://cnparm.home.texas.net/Nat/Mx/Mx00.htm map: http://www.emersonkent.com/map_archive/mexico_1910.htm (nutshell version): http://www.emersonkent.com/ wars_and_battles_in_history/mexican_revolution.htm http://tinyurl.com/5rfocf (scroll down) ****!! with good photos including one entitled, "Favorite pastime of Mexican revolutionaries, blowing up trains." *** So first we have the old corrupt Diaz regime, then the Madero government from 1911 to 1913 when Lascuráin Paredes took over the presidency (for Huerta) and after a few days Huerta took office himself for a few years. Huerta was ousted by Venustiano Carranza Garza who, except for a 10 week interruption by Eulalio Gutiérrez Ortiz (1914-15), held the high office until 1920. Magonistas Mexican anarchists, followers of brothers Enrique and Ricardo Flores Magón (1874-1922). During the "Magonista" Revolt of 1911, a short- lived revolutionary commune was set-up in Baja California. In present Mexico, the Flores Magon brothers are considered left wing political icons nearly as notable as Emiliano Zapata, and numerous streets, towns and neighborhoods are named for them. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ricardo_Flores_Magón (very interesting guy - died at Leavenworth) ********************************************* Page 983 *** Morelos A state in southern Mexico. Morelos has always had great revolutionary activity, and numerous guerrillas have made their homes and struggled for justice in the region. Most notably, Anenecuilco in Morelos[clarify] was the home town of Emiliano Zapata; the state was the center of Zapata's Mexican Revolution campaign, and a small city in the Morelos is named after him. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morelos *** nice map: http://www.emersonkent.com/map_archive/ morelos_mexico_map_1910.htm *** More names from the Orozquista - the term for those who followed Pascual Orozco and son in fighting first for the Madero against Diaz and then against Madero (with cause) side of the revolution(s): http://www.tshaonline.org/handbook/online/articles/OO/for8.html Emiliano Zapata - from Morelos, Mexico, begun a serious insurrection against the (Madero) government..." Pascual Orozco 1882-1915, importer of armaments from U.S., maderista, revolted against Madero government in 1912. Pascual Orozco,Jr. (1882-1915) was a Mexican revolutionary hero and leader - first against Diaz and then against Madero. Worked with Pancho Villa - defeated by Huerta.) José Inés Salazar was longtime colleague of Pascual Orozco and later one of the leading Orozquista generals. Braulio Hernández A prominent Maderista but later became a radical Orozquista. Photos of Revolution people: http://www.texancultures.utsa.edu/ library/bakerPhotos.htm (includes Villa, Orozco and Hernandez in different photos) Pancho Villa a prominent leader of the Revolution - joined Orozuistas after Madero's murder José Gonzáles Salas Maderista general in command against Orozco the country around Jiménez . . . The region around Jiménez, a mining center in Chihuahua 130 miles south of Chihuahua City, is known for large number of meteorites, some of them discovered by the Spaniards in 16th and 17th centuries, and now exhibited in Palacio de Mineria (Minery Palace) in Mexico city. http://against-the-day.pynchonwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=J "In 1852, two meteorites were found about 16 miles from Jimenez (formerly Huejuquilla), Chihuahua, Mexico. The two masses were removed in 1891 to the School of Mines, Mexico City." With a weight of 14.114 tons, Chupaderos I is ranked as the 10th largest meteorite in the world; and Chupaderos II with a weight of 6.767 tons ranked 14th. Photos of Chupaderos I and Chupaderos II. *** Chupaderos II meteorite: http://www.jensenmeteorites.com/ Chupaderos/Chupad(II)-1.jpg *** Chupaderos I meteorite: http://www.jensenmeteorites.com/ Chupaderos/Chupad(1)-3.jpg "... the Bolsón de Mapimí" A small desert area east of Jiménez, ********************************************* Page 984 *** Frank is looking around in the Bolsón de Mapimí when he finds a little meteorite (?) which seems to speak to him "máquina loca" Spanish: crazy machine. The translation of máquina is often tuned to the context: here, "locomotive." *** History of trains in Mexico: http://www.2020site.org/ mexicanrailway/central.html *** photo of derailment or bombing/?: http://www.emersonkent.com/ wars_and_battles_in_history/mexican_revolution.htm *** Oh shades of the Kieselguhr Kid. "a sus órdenes" Spanish: (ready) for your orders. In English one would say, "at your service." "One prong of the government attack . . . between Corralitos and Rellano . . ." The Battle of Rellano. The Battle of Rellano was the high-water mark of the Orozquista military campaign. Andale, muchachos Spanish: let's go, boys. ********************************************* Page 985 Parral Parral is where Pancho Villa was assassinated on July 20, 1923. Apparently someone remembered the sacking, dynamiting, looting, and killing. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parral%2C_Chihuahua El Espinero = Tarahumara duende - is this the place Frank was guided to - for a railroad battle? ********************************************* Page 986 *** Victoriano Huerta - fought for Madero until he usurped power himself. Cf page 376 (Frank and Ewball run into Huerta and his men prior to all this) Tampico cf. page 637, where (and when) Frank first meets Günther. Orizaba product One of the leading industries of Orizaba is the Cervecería Moctezuma brewery which was established in 1896. Chiapas cf. page 637 ** Situation not hopeful - Huerta has guns, Orozco no. The "Maquina loca tactic" will eventually fail - (this was the tactic of hiding a hijacked locomotive behind enemy lines and and packing it with explosives. Then sending it full throttle into the cars in front of it. Frank gets to Mexico City where he meets up with Günther von Quassel a "wealthy coffee scion" and Yashmeen's old boyfriend; inhabits "his own idiomatic 'frame of reference'" 599; aka "El Atildado" in Mexico, with Frank Traverse, 637; in Mexico City, 986; "quasseln" is a German verb, meaning roughly "to jabber" ********************************************* Page 987 Gunther and Frank catch up on stuff: Oaxaca http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oaxaca cafetal Spanish: coffee plantation. The work is being mechanized and there is really no insurgency in Oaxaca - only family disputes and banditry. jefe politico Spanish: political boss. Juchitán http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Juchitán_de_Zaragoza Benito Juárez Maza - son of Benito Juarez president of Mexico (1858-1872) Governor of Oaxaca from 1911 until his death the next year. ********************************************* Page 988 chegomista Follower of Che Gómez,mayor of Juichitan, follower of Madero until he was double crossed. http://tinyurl.com/5om2f "El Reparador" Spanish: "The Fixer." Epithet of a hundred operators in crime literature. Or, as the text eventually suggests, "The Repairman." Ibargüengoitia Speculation on this surname: Jorge Ibargüengoitia was a novelist and playwright who wrote, among other things, Los Relámpagos de Agosto (The Lightning of August, 1964), which uses cartoonish mayhem to debunk the Mexican Revolution's heroic myths; improbably it won for its author the Premio Casa de las Américas, despite or because of the consternation which its flippancy caused. Ibargüengoitia is also the name of the "Genevan contact" that Slothrop meets on behalf of Squalidozzi the Argentine anarchist in GR. On p. 384 Squalidozzi's shipmate Belaustegui asks why he didn't deliver the message himself: "Why didn't you go to Geneva and try to get through to us?" "I didn't want to lead them to Ibargüengoitia. I sent someone else." Chapultepec Park Chapultepec Park is an enormous green area in the middle of Mexico City covering 2,000 acres, containing three of the city's most importnat museums, an amusement park, several lakes, the only genuine castle in North America,, Mexico's largest zoo and the residence of the President of Mexico, Los Pinos. Chapultepec Castle is also known as "The Halls of Montezuma." Wie geht's, mein alter Kumpel German: How are you, my old workmate? ********************************************* Page 989 the new Monument to National Independence Mexico City's No.1 landmark. The Monumento de la Independencia, situated on a roundabout at the Paseo de la Reforma (Reform Avenue) in Mexico City's downtown area, was inaugurated in 1910. The sculptures that surround the base represent Law, Justice, War and Peace. On top of the monument is a winged and gilded angel, known as Angel de la Independencia, or just El Angel. See photo of El Angel. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/El_Ángel When his eyes refocused, whoever had spoken had moved on and Frank has, at recognizing Dally's face, gone into the same kind of trance, a merger with the moment, or with the machine, that had almost taken him into the collision with the Federal train on P.985. The warning words seem to be "crazy machine", "dead" and "you". A warning from the Angel of Death, via another Alternate Communication channel. a face he recognized Another angel modeled on Dally? El Angel was sculpted by Enrique Alciati. "máquina loca," "muerte" and "tú" Spanish: "crazy locomotive," "dead" and "you." Why the Angel of Death rather than the Angel of Light? "Frank could see The Angel "in the declining sunlight..." http://www.zanzig.com/travel/mexico-photos/m005-070.htm http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/El_Ángel abrazo Spanish: hug. "sinvergüencistas" From sin vergüenza, Spanish: without shame. The -istas ending makes it refer to a group of adherents. Ibargüengoitia gets Frank and Gunter out of Vera Cruz, down to Frontera . . . to Villahermosa, Tuxtla Gutiérrez . . . and across the Sierra to the Pacific coast where lies Gunter's plantation, on the Pacific coast around Tapachula near the border with Guatemala. "Tu madre chingada puta" Rude, rude Spanish: Your mother's a fucking whore. ********************************************* Page 990 Machine-Age nightmare . . . the future of coffee Another Crazy Machine, or perhaps "Out of Control" machine (the governor on the locomotive on P.985 "no longer regulated anything"). Industrialization has struck again. *** Chamula - a city in Chiapas comprised of Tzotzil Mayan Indians who work (and have been worked) on coffee and sugar plantations. The city is autonomous within Mexico. *** http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tzotzil *** http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tzotzil_people *** Today many in the Zapatista Liberation movement are Tzotzil. *** http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zapatista_Army_of_National_Liberation Chamula is near San Cristóbal http://wild-net.com.au/mexico/html/san_cristobal.phtml Tuxtla - the capital of Chiapas http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuxtla_Gutiérrez (nice positional map of Mexico) Tapachula http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tapachula El Quetzal Dormido The Sleeping Quetzal. Quetzals are elaborately-plumed birds of the genera Pharomachrus and Euptilotis, and are in the trogon family. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quetzal http://cloudbridge.org/avifauna.htm And Frank "had observed, or thought he had ..." " Brujos;" male witches Frank meets Melpómene in "El Quetzal Dormido" Melpómene is the name of the Greek muse of song and tragedy. http:// en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melpomene *** see also "18 Melpomene" a large, bright asteroid located in the Main Belt, discovered by John Russel Hind on June 24, 1852, and named after aforementioned muse. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/18_Melpomene Palenque - a small town in Chiapas, powerful in the Mayan Era. Overrun by jungle today. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palenque ********************************************* Page 991 guayuleros - wild rubber workers of the old days. Pancho Villa´s cross-border raids scared off "guayuleros" in Southwestern U.S. Melpómene tells Frank about the cucuji According to the text they are "giant luminous beetles." Pynchon seems to have read this "Handbook for Travellers" Google Books scan to Mexico, written in 1907, by Thomas Phillip Terry. This passage includes descriptions of reading by their light, simultaneous flashing, use by women under thin veils, and small cages containing several beetles acting as torches http://tinyurl.com/6r8vec tinterillo - told Melpomene that the little cucuji were very bright Legal scribe. A "writer to prepare papers, collect and adduce evidence in legal cases, such as was to be submitted to illiterate judges of such tribunals as then existed." (From here, p 160.) Ahora, apágate Spanish: Now put yourself out, extinguish yourself. Bueno Good. *** And Frank has a little communication going with a beetle named Pedro who lets him know that he is Frank's soul and that all the little lit up beetles are the souls of all who had ever passed through his life and that they all went to make a single soul. *** " 'In the same way,' amplified Gunther, 'that our Savior could inform his disciples with a straight face that bread and wine were indistinguishable from his body and blood. Light, in any case, among these Indians of Chiapas, occupies and analoguous position to flesh among Christians. It is living tissue. As the brain is the outward and visible expression of the Mind.' " Yeah? ********************************************* Page 992 instantaneously In violation of Einstein's special theory of relativity. a wireless, immediate, human way of communicating. Caray . . . novio . . . Spanish: Good heavens . . . boyfriend . . . Mazatán http://www.travelpost.com/NA/Mexico/Chiapas/Mazatan/7645531 Qué Spanish: What, as in "what the fuck?" querida Spanish: dear, darling. ********************************************* Page 993 ** alternate communication systems - telepathic** It is like the telephone exchange . . . the single greater organism remains intact, coherent, connected. Actually not like the telephone exchange. On P. 708, Derrick Theign worries that in case of war, telephone and telegraph will become unreliable; this is his reason for creating the R.U.S.H. This telepathic network, like an unfailing cell phone network, is far more reliable. ** On page 993 Gunther talks about a network of Indians in telepathic communication. Tenochtitlán Tenochtitlán was the capital of the Aztec empire, built on an island in Lake Texcoco in what is now the Federal District in central Mexico. At its height, it was one of the largest cities in the world, with over 200,000 inhabitants. The city was destroyed in 1521 by Spanish conquistadors. Mexico City was erected on top of the ruin. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tenochtitlan Angel of the Fourth Glorieta on Reforma Glorieta is a monument. See the angel, pg. 989. "As a gateway the arch seemed to define two different parts of the city..." *** http://www.flickr.com/photos/44011434 at N00/2404223525 ********************************************* Page 994 He knew what it was but could not find its name in his memory Presumably the unknown menace from which Aztlan's inhabitants fled. But suggestive both of air attack and the menace of North American industrialization. ***!!!! Air attack? What is this? Indeed! the US sends aeroplanes to support Huerta? (NYTimes 5/24/1912) tezontle The colonists and Indian artisans employed local tezontle, a light and porous volcanic rock, to create elaborate facades on buildings. tepetate A porous whitish-yellow rock used in building construction when cut into blocks. As a construction material tepetate has played a major role in the development of modern Mexico. indicative world Very potent phrase. The world of everyday reality, indicating the deepeer reality of the visions? The indicative mood in grammar is the mood of simple declarative statements, plain facts: there was Melpomene, here is a chair. A mood incommensurate with Frank's trance. the Huerta coup Against Madero, who was shot, February 1913. Ciudadela http://archaeology.asu.edu/teo/intro/ciudad.htm Félix Díaz - Huerta supporter until he was duped. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Félix_Díaz Decena Trágica Spanish: the tragic ten days (before the assassination of President Modero) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_decena_trágica Zócalo -A zócalo is a central town square or plaza. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zocalo el palacio blanco Spanish: the white palace Pino Suárez - Vice President of Mexico from 1911 to 1913 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/José_María_Pino_Suárez ********************************************* Page 995 It was the first time he was aware of getting paid for being stupid. Could there be a future in this? Sounds like another Pynchonian 'in- joke'. In "Vineland", Zoyd Wheeler is getting his yearly cheques for precisely that, i.e. doing something stupid. ********************************************* Page 996 ¡Epa! Spanish: Whoa! Soccer (fútbol) announcers interject ¡Epa! when two players have a very physical coming together. Since last September the mine workers' union had been out on strike The Colorado "coal war" of September 1913 to April 1914; here is an eye-opening account. Just a taste of what's coming a bit later in Ludlow: http://www.du.edu/anthro/ludlow/cfhist.html ********************************************* Page 997 Pagosa Springs South Central Colorado town in the heart of the San Juan Forest. 1914 with photos: http://gawiz.com/HistoryoftheRanches.htm ********************************************* Page 998 ...over Wolf Creek Pass, into the San Luis Valley...San Luis Basin...through Fort Garland...up the Sangre de Cristos over North La Veta Pass...the first rooftops of Walsenburg. The route described would take them from the presumably UMW- sympathetic mining country in the San Juans, north and east along current US highway 160 (called the Navaho Trail), across the San Luis Valley and Basin to North La Veta Pass, with Walsenburg and the prairies and canyons of the coal country beyond to the east (the only safe approach to the striking mines). http://tinyurl.com/65g53v The geography of this journey is as carefully described as the various characters' journeys through the Balkans (the description of the view of the Spanish Peaks and Culebra Range are absolutely accurate), and there must be a reason, something these regions have in common. The San Luis Valley and immediately adjacent areas are the furthest northeastern reaches of the Spanish Empire in North America, part of the Province of Nueva Mexico del Norte of New Spain, later Mexico (part of which became the state of New Mexico in 1912). The area around Telluride would be the northern border of Pynchon's vision of Aztlan (it is in fact the northern border of the Pueblo settlements). These are, therefore, like the Balkans, borders between newly industrializing empires and older, tribally-organized, "pre- scientific" cultures (both with indigenous mystical/spiritual traditions, with which the characters interact). Here and in nearby Mexico, mechanization and industrialization of resource extraction are causing heartbreaking exploitation and violence, and the indigenous shamanism and mysticism and their unmediated power are being destroyed by advancing industrial civilization, exactly as described by Dwight Prance on P.777. Niall Ferguson(The War of the World: Twentieth Century Conflict and the Descent of the West, Penguin Press, 2006) points to three demonstrated conditions for becoming a conflict flashpoint: (1) Multi- ethnic population (2) location at the border of a failing empire (3) economic volatility (See note to P.939). Both the Balkans and the American Southwest/Mexico fulfilled those conditions. ********************************************* ** Also see: http://chumpsofchoice.blogspot.com/2007/10/what-i-tell-you-three- times-is-true.html From kelber at mindspring.com Sat Jul 5 21:20:52 2008 From: kelber at mindspring.com (kelber at mindspring.com) Date: Sat, 5 Jul 2008 22:20:52 -0400 (GMT-04:00) Subject: ATDTDA: (35) Part 1 - such as it is Message-ID: <33004189.1215310852558.JavaMail.root@mswamui-cedar.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Thanks, Bekah, for going way beyond the call of duty on this. Re: Czolgosz It's worth reading about him in Emma Goldman's very readable autobiography, Living My Life, via Amazon.com's look-inside feature. Hopefully, I'll have something more pithy to add in a day or so. Laura -----Original Message----- >From: Becky Alexander > >Hi all, >Since it appears there is no movement on "ATD: (35)" I'm going to >send what I've found on the Pynchon-Wiki, and a bit from elsewhere, >for pages 976 - 1000. It's not too bad on the Mexican Revolution >(although that's really complex) and I'm not up to doing that in >addition to my own Ludlow, counter-Earth, Chumboys-in-love and >moving pictures sections. (There is a bit of new stuff here, though.) > >I'll take on pages 1000-1007 as the first section of (36) - but >still called (35) - more completely because they go with those >chapters very nicely. Then I'll pick (36) up tomorrow because I'm >(very hopefully) leaving on a jet plane to see my family in the >great northland in two weeks or so and for two weeks or so - and then >I'm back in school. > >PLEASE!!!! Feel free to comment in any way you choose. :-) > >AtD - pages 976-999 late 1912-1913 > >http://against-the-day.pynchonwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=ATD_976-999 > >http://chumpsofchoice.blogspot.com/2007/10/what-i-tell-you-three- >times-is-true.html > >The *** s are where I've inserted some stuff not on either of >the above pages. > >********************************************* > >Page 976 - > >*** Stray and Ewball going to Denver to see Ewball's wealthy >parents, Moline and (some name) Senior, "elder," Oust, for whom >Mayva works. > >"... the coalfield troubles in southern Colorado..." > >The United Mine Workers called a stike in Colorado's coalfields north >of Denver in 1910 winning a 10 percent wage increase for ten thousand >Colorado miners. The union's real target was the larger southern >coalfield. A state-wide coal strike was called in September 1913 and >lasted 14 months resulted in the Ludlow Massacre of April 20, 1914, >in which 20 people were killed. *** (SEE "ATD (36)" coming) > >*** Stray's been collecting ways to help people with medical >stuff "... began in the days of the Madero revolution..." (she >will use these supplies in the days to come) > >"... the Madero revolution..." > >in 1910, out of Mexico, led by Madera. Ramifications felt in El >Paso, where a Senate Committee investigated in 1912 and found >Standard Oil partly responsible. >Relevant?--a Mormon settlement was investigated as part of the >investigation. >The Madero (Mexican) Revolution was brought on by, among other >factors, tremendous disagreement among the Mexican people over the >dictatorship of President Porfirio Diaz. Madero was one of the >strongest believers that Diaz should renounce his power and not seek >re-election in 1910. He was jailed by Diaz but was able to escape on >October 4, 1910, to the US. In San Antonio, Texas, he issued his Plan >of San Luis Potosi proclaiming the 1910 election null and void and >called for an armed revolution on November 20, 1910 against the >"illegitimate" presidency of Diaz. Madero also promised agrarian land >reforms to attract Mexico's peasants to his cause. The revolution >spread, the Maderista troops, with Pancho Villa in the North and >Emiliano Zapata in the South, defeated the army of Diaz within six >months, and Diaz resigned on May 25, 1911. Francisco Madero was >elected President on October 1, 1911 and assumed power on November 6. > >http://www.mexconnect.com/MEX/austin/revolution.html > >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francisco_I._Madero (better) > >********************************************* > >Page 977 >cross-gable >Two perpendicular gable roofs; pic and more > >*** Moline Oust (Ewball's mother) styles herself after Baby Doe >Tabor, the Leadville madam (the Ousts had been living in Leadville). >*** http://www.babydoetabor.com/ > >*** Stray plays on the Steinway : > >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steinway_&_Sons > >"I'm Going..Salome" >Stanley Murphy, lyricist, written before 1909. >"I'm going to get myself a black Salome" >Composer: Wynn, Ed 1886-1966 Lyrics: Big Bill Jefferson a railroad >man (first line of text) Contributors: Murphy, Stanley 1875-1919 >Publication Date: 1908 For voice and piano. Cover ill.: African >American man watching a belly dancer. Photo of Ed. Wynn. > >http://tinyurl.com/5maqr8 > >majolica >A particular type of white colour glaze for earthenware ceramics that >was known for its ability to mimic (poorly) historically expensive >porcelain. Its name comes from the practice of importing it into >Europe through the ports of the Balearic island Majorca from the Mid- >east. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Majolica > >********************************************* >Page 978 > >'Tá bien, no te preocupes, m'hija >Spanish: It's all right, don't trouble yourself, my dear. > >Galluses >a pair of suspenders for trousers. "Braces" in British English. > >Czolgosz >Leon Frank Czolgosz (January 24, 1873 – October 29, 1901) was the >assassin of U.S. President William McKinley. In the last few years of >his short life he was heavily influenced by anarchists like Emma >Goldman and Alexander Berkman. > >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Czolgosz > >President McKinley > William McKinley, Jr. (January 29, 1843 – September 14, 1901) was >the 25th President of the United States. from Wikipedia McKinley as >president placed the US on the gold standard (remember Dally and the >poster for bimetallism). > >One thousand Fast Lake Navigation, 158 Fast Express, and 206 >Automobile Inverts >http://www.filbert.com/stamplistopedia/us_inverts/default.htm > > > >Also, an interesting little online tidbit which references this stamp >with the inverted center to which this page refers. > >These misprinted ("alternate") stamps, associated with Anarchism, and >the philatelically-named Jenny Invert with her similar association to >the Anarchist collective at Yz-le-Bans, inevitably call to mind the >subtly altered stamps of the anarchist (or at any rate anti- >government) Trystero in Lot 49, postage in an alternative, >underground communication system. We have, then, the theme of >underground, alternative communication introduced again (the first >time in AtD is with the London gas pipes). Another philatelically- >named female character is Penny Black. > >http://against-the-day.pynchonwiki.com/wiki/index.php? >title=ATD_976-999#Page_978 > >********************************************* > >Page 979 >"Mark Hanna's miserable stooge..." >Mark Hanna (September 24, 1837–February 15, 1904), born Marcus Alonzo >Hanna, was an industrialist and Republican politician from Ohio. He >rose to fame as the campaign manager of the successful Republican >Presidential candidate William McKinley in the U.S. Presidential >election of 1896, in what is considered the forerunner of the modern >political campaign, and subsequently became one of the most powerful >members of the U.S. Senate. From Wikipedia. Obviously, the stooge >refers to McKinley. Strongly suggestive of a parallel to Karl Rove >and his miserable stooge. > >*** Very funny scene here with Ewball stepping on his father's head - > >*** "... language unfit for the sensitive reader..." either TPR is >having a small fit of the intrusive narrator/author or he's mimicking >the literature of the day - I'd say the latter but this is not a >Chums part and I'm not sure the western genre lit did that. ? > >*** Mayva adds the ring of a Remington .22 round to the melee. >(she'd run out of B.B.s) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BB_gun#History > >henriettia >A fine diagonal twilled (ribbed) dress fabric made with silk warp >(vertical threads) and fine worsted (firm-textured) weft (horizontal >threads), which makes it resemble Cashmere cloth. Characteristics: >Originally consisted of worsted filling and silk warp. Today, it can >be found in a variety of blends. It has excellent drapability. It's >weight and quality vary with fibres, however, when created with silk >and wool it is lustrous and soft. Uses: Dress goods. Textile Dictionary > > > >"Œdipal spectacle" (refers to Ewball stepping on his father's head.) > From the myth of Oedipus Rex, about a returning son killing his >father, rendered infamous through Freud's interpretation of its >significance to men and rendered famous by the Sophocles plays in the >5th century B.C. > >And perhaps a Pynchon in-joke of sorts. The protagonist of Lot 49 is >Oedipa Maas (it has been suggested: "More Oedipal"), also in trouble >over stamps; in fact "Lot 49" refers to the auction lot of Trystero- >altered stamps in the collection of Pierce Inverarity (it has been >suggested: "Inverse Rarity"), for whose estate Oedipa is executor. A >few pages from here the issue of alternate communication forms will >be introduced; these references to the issues in Lot 49 could serve >to alert the experienced reader of Pynchon to their importance in >AtD. http://against-the-day.pynchonwiki.com/wiki/index.php? >title=ATD_976-999#Page_978 > >********************************************* > >Page 981 >"... the one with the destiny..." >Do we learn anything about this odd Oust child? (Presumably Ewball?). >No, this one is apparently a little child when Ewball is a grownup. >Maybe a child born with a caul? It would not take much of a prophet >to say that such a child has a destiny. > >*** Some child born in the early 1900s, lived in Denver for at least >awhile - money from mining - goes on to become ___________? > >tintypes >A cheap, common and durable form of black and white photographic >image where a sensitised collodion is poured upon a thin sheet of >soot blackened tin, exposed and developed. Often hand-coloured. The >most notable practitioners and teachers of the process in the US are >Mark Osterman and France Scully Osterman. > >*** These were used a lot prior to the US Civil War - I have a photo >of one from my family on my web-site - great-great uncle Paul >Mikkelson in Civil War regalia. > >http://homepage.mac.com/bekker2/familyg/Mpaulsonslattun.html >(scroll down a bit) > >********************************************* > > From robinlandseadel at comcast.net Sat Jul 5 21:31:19 2008 From: robinlandseadel at comcast.net (robinlandseadel at comcast.net) Date: Sun, 06 Jul 2008 02:31:19 +0000 Subject: AtDtDA(34): That Which Dwells Message-ID: <070620080231.6104.48702E7700055116000017D82215575114040A0B0E0A9C0B020E0402070D019D@comcast.net> Dear Dave, I'm so glad you worked on this section with your usual devotion. My house was robbed last week, the computer was stolen and the west side of the house was trashed the east was just the usual mess. So I was out of commission---dark as the night, the e-mail equlvalent of dead---in any case, this is some of the deepest stuff OBA's ever pulled outta his ass, with correspondence by DM that shows just how deep it goes. Gotta get me a copy of "The White Goddess," toot-sweet. Dave Monroe: "'You are familiar with the idea of the Shekinah--That which dwells?'". . . . From kelber at mindspring.com Sat Jul 5 22:13:49 2008 From: kelber at mindspring.com (kelber at mindspring.com) Date: Sat, 5 Jul 2008 23:13:49 -0400 (EDT) Subject: AtD (34) p. 963 and 969 Message-ID: <6285529.1215314029976.JavaMail.root@mswamui-cedar.atl.sa.earthlink.net> "... a further narrowing of choices" degenerates into something approaching determinism, by p. 969: "It would be many years before he learned that this dog's name was Ksenjia, and that she was the intimate companion of Pugnax, whose human associates the Chums of Chance had been invisibly but attentively keeping an eye on the progress of Reef's family exfiltration from the Balkan Peninsula. Her task at this juncture was to steer everyone to safety without appearing to." This is the first instance of the Chums actively controlling what's going on down below. Very different from their earlier "prime directive" of non-interference, when they were taking orders from some unknown controlling force. Now that they're on their own, they no longer leave things to chance, they ARE Chance, rigidly controlling people who mistakenly think themselves free agents. One has to wonder why they're so determined to help Reef and his family (as opposed to, say, Yashmeen and her family). Laura -----Original Message----- >From: Mark Kohut >Sent: Jul 5, 2008 10:49 AM >To: pynchon -l >Subject: AtD (34) p. 963 > >Each day would show Reef, Yashmeen and Ljubica only a further narrowing of choices... >  >Leitmotif expreseed elsewhere in exactly those words................ >  >"pressed by the movements of forces"......................'they're coming in from all directions". >  >History is Fate, not freedom (for them)......... > > From markekohut at yahoo.com Sun Jul 6 08:40:24 2008 From: markekohut at yahoo.com (Mark Kohut) Date: Sun, 6 Jul 2008 06:40:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: on coffee in M &D,maybe, and its connection to the oeuvre of TRP Message-ID: <813795.31047.qm@web38404.mail.mud.yahoo.com>  The section from a New Yorker review which I copied yesterday was not visible to everyone.   And, today, I found this synopsis of the original article which is not online/ With a link to the New Yorker review which I cited---the last two paragraphs of, which brought in some generalties (and possible disagreements).   http://blog.lib.umn.edu/coxxx063/deception/022222.html -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From igrlivingston at gmail.com Sun Jul 6 11:08:42 2008 From: igrlivingston at gmail.com (Ian Livingston) Date: Sun, 6 Jul 2008 09:08:42 -0700 Subject: Fw: Re: AtDtDA(34): "What is born of the light?"--Cyprian In-Reply-To: <720220.84946.qm@web38402.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <720220.84946.qm@web38402.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <95cde1ee0807060908g151c0961y3112c49dacb3ad05@mail.gmail.com> According to Jung, in the Mysterium Coniunctionis, what is born of light is shadow. There also we learn where Cyprian got his name and who he is. More on this later, I am running on short power. -i On Sat, Jul 5, 2008 at 3:01 PM, Mark Kohut wrote: > yes, destruction yet, in Pynchon's layers, light also resonates > > with, since Augustine, God as lumen, fire....--U. Eco. > > Here as in GR, Pynchon asks What? Which? With no > > escluded middle, are BOTH born of light?....Comment welcomed. > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bekker2 at mac.com Sun Jul 6 12:57:49 2008 From: bekker2 at mac.com (Bekah) Date: Sun, 06 Jul 2008 10:57:49 -0700 Subject: ATDTDA: (35) pages 1000- 1007 Message-ID: <1630D887-A34F-46EB-81E5-148D9F4C313F@mac.com> The year is about 1914 and Scarsdale, Foley, Frank and Eweball are all in Trinidad (Trinity), Colorado which is ready to explode behind the union issues: **************************** Page 1000 Foley is at the "L.A.H.D.I.D.A" ( la-di-da: pretentious) confab "Las Animas-Huerfano Delegation of the Industrial Defense Alliance" = Las Animas and Huerfano Counties, in southeastern/south-central Colorado, are the site of the southern Colorado coalfields, ground of the bloody 1913-14 Colorado Las Animas = souls / short for Animas Perdidas (lost souls) Huerfeno = orphan These are the names of the Colorado counties in which the coal miners were striking. And Scarsdale gives a little stereotypical greedy capitalist talk to the L.A.H.D.I.D.A group. **************************** Page 1001 From Scarsdale's intense little speech, "Money speaks, the land listens, where the Anarchist skulked, where the horse-thief plied his trade, we fishers of Americans will cast our nets of perfect ten acre mesh, levelled and varmint-proofed, ready to build on. Where alien mockers and jackers went creeping after their miserable communistic dreams the good lowland townfolk will come up by the netful, clean, industrious, Christian, while we, gazing out over their little vacation bungalows, will dwell in top-dollar palazzos befitting our station which their mortgage money will be paying to build for us. When the scars of these battles have faded, and the tailings are covered in bunchgrass and wildflowers, and the coming of the snows is no longer the year's curse but its promise, awaited eagerly for its influx of moneyed seekers after wintertime recreation, when the shining strands of telpherage have subdued every mountainside and all is festival and wholesome sport and eugenically-chosen stock, who will be left anymore to remember the jabbering Union scum, the frozen corpses whose names, false in any case, have gone forever unrecorded? who will care that once men fought as if an eight -our day, a few coins more at the end of the week, were everything, were worth the merciless wind beneath the shabby roof, the tears freezing on a woman's face worn to dark Indian stupor before its time, the whining of children whose maws were never satisfied, whose future, those who survived, was always to toil for us, to fetch and feed and nurse, to ride the far fences of our properties, to stand watch between us and those who would intrude or question? " with a bit of prophesying about the great ski-country of the future. "perfect ten-acre mesh" Mutilation of the land by imposition of straight lines on it. A grid. Oh the ghosts of M & D. "telpherage" Cars suspended from overhead cables, or the system of cables or the conveyance of vehicles or loads by means of electricity. Meanwhile, Foley's contemplating something over there in the shadows. Scarsdale goes down the mountain to the coal area to take a look and while he is in a car on his train (the Juggernaut) he sees someone - someone he knows - who? What ghost is this - he knows - he doesn't know. **************************** Page 1002 Foley comes in and Foley has seen ghosts too, although not recent Scarsdale's visitor. Nevertheless, Foley sees that Scarsdale is quite aware of the ghosts - "It doesn't matter, Foley. It's all in the hands of Jesus, isn't it? Could happen any time and to tell you the truth, I look forward to being one of the malevalent dead." Scarsdale has a death wish? How long has this been going on? Since Venice? This is getting very fatalist on the part of Scarsdale - everybody - Pynchon? Frank and Ewball get their stuff dropped off at Walsenburg * from the last chapter -this is medical stuff Frank and Ewball picked up in Denver from Wren and Doc Zhao's- it's for the striking miners - Dr. Zhao knows Stray. It may be herbals or guns or who knows. http://neighbors.denverpost.com/album_pic.php?pic_id=1695 Chinese New Year's in Denver ca. 1899 - and then Frank and Ewball head to Trinidad where there are militia men all over the place - On October 28, as strike-related violence mounted, Colorado governor Elias M. Ammons, called in the Colorado National Guard. At first, the guard's appearance calmed the situation. But the sympathies of the militia leaders were quickly seen by the strikers to lie with company management. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ludlow_Massacre "Though Ammons intended the militia to act as a peacekeeping body, his good intentions were not to be, as the militias' presence led to even more confrontations." http:// www.santafetrailscenicandhistoricbyway.org/ludlow.html "As the cost of supporting a force of 695 enlisted men and 397 officers in the field bankrupted the state, all but two of the militia companies were withdrawn after six months. The militia companies that remained were made up primarily of mine guards." http://www.du.edu/anthro/ludlow/cfhist3.html "... the strikers, who were Greeks and Bulgarians, Serbs and Croats, Montenegrins and Italians..." = The workforce itself was largely immigrant labor from Southern and Eastern Europe, who had been brought in as strikebreakers in 1903 (Beshoar 1957:1; McGovern and Guttridge 1972:50). Before the strike, the UMW counted 24 distinct languages in the Southern Field coal camps. In 1912, 61% of Colorado's coal miners were of "non-Western European origin" (Whiteside 1991:48). This obviously had consequences for organizing the miners and maintaining unity among them during the strike. It also resulted in the strike and its violence being seen largely as a result of Greek and Balkan culture, rather than the conditions in the Southern Colorado coalfields. From the account of "Coal War History" provided by the Colorado Coal Field War Project. http://www.du.edu/anthro/ludlow/cfhist.html (I'd say the strikers got their acts together here, at this point anyway, with a very real common enemy and did something - they weren't fighting each other - the union had a very complete list of demands (see http://www.du.edu/anthro/ludlow/cfhist2.html Ewball thinks that the fighting of the Balkan areas is unknown here in the coalfields (or US?) "they just drop those ancient hatreds , drop 'em flat, and become brothers-in-arems, 'cause they recognize this right away for just what it is." But the owners seem to encourage stories about "sharpshooters from the Balkan War and such, and Greek mountain fighters. Serbs with an appetite for cruelty, Bulgars with a reputation for unspeakable sex, all those alien races coming over here and making miserable the livse of the poor innocent plutes, who were only trying to get by like everybody else." In some areas, the mining operators took care to bring in more varied linguistic groups so that communication would be more difficult. As the "Coal War History" indicates, those stories are still haunting the books. (See Finnish and Balkan groups in Minnesota 1907 / 1916 / etc. There is a really good Young Adult book about the life of a young Minnesota miner family called "The Journal of Otto Peltonen" which includes an enormous amount of factual information on the situation there - iron ore, Finns first then Balkan immigrants, strikes, spies, the whole 9 yards. - scary stuff - this is where my dad's family was from so that's the interest for me.) **************************** Page 1003 Ewball also figures there are ghosts around - Balkan Ghosts (see the Balkan history by Robert Kaplan of that name which has absolutely nothing to do with Ludlow.) Frank thinks Ewball is nuts. Trinidad: Columbian Hotel "Centerpiece of Trinidad Since 1879" http://photoswest.org/cgi-bin/imager?10001913+X-1913 They see Foley Walker outside the hotel. "... Rockefeller couldn't make it..." Rockefeller owned the Colorado Fuel and Iron Company which had its big operations near Pueblo, Co. but also owned a mine or two in the Ludlow area. He testified before Congress about it later: http:// historymatters.gmu.edu/d/5735/ (interesting stuff) also: http:// www.pbs.org/wgbh/amex/rockefellers/sfeature/sf_8.html Rockefeller eventually got much of the blame for what happened at Ludlow. http://tinyurl.com/67d3y4 Trinidad Main Street - early 1900s http://www.trinidadco.com/ **************************** Page 1004 Ewball: "They say Foley's a born-again Christer, so he can act as bad as he wants because Jesus is coming and nothin a human can do so bad Jesus won't forgive it." Well, that's curious turn - when did this happen - did I miss something? But Ewball has other sources of info. "Toltec Hotel" Established around 1910. By 2004 "one of historic Trinidad's most famous but most dilapidated buildings" http://photoswest.org/cgi-bin/imager?10001874+X-1874 Mother Jones Mary Harris Jones (1830-1930), labor organizer and advocate. A speech she made in Trinidad climaxed with: "Rise up and strike . . . strike until the last one of you drop into your graves. We are going to stand together and never surrender. Boys, always remember you ain't got a damn thing if you ain't got a union!" ** see next post for a bit on Mother Jones' Autobiography Frank and Ewball make a plan to meet up with Scarsdale and Vibe after lunch "the C.F.I. office" Colorado Fuel and Iron - Rockefeller owned - see above; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colorado_Fuel_and_Iron **************************** Page 1005 Ewball, on the subject of who will pull the trigger: "Well, he's yours by the laws of vengeance, sure.... that's if you want him." Frank is "disingenuous" when he suggests that Ewball take on Scarsdale and himself shoot Foley. "psychological talk, and that... A way of getting back at your Pa, and so forth. Back east thoughts, horseshit of course." They flip a silver quarter for it and the reader is not told at this time who gets the pleasure of gunning whom. "Where the buildings ended, nothing could be seen above the surface of the street... only an intense radiance filling the gap, a halo or glory out of which anything might emerge, into which anything might be taken, a portal of silver transfiguration, as if being displayed from teh viewpoint of (let us imagine) a fallen gunfighter." "a halo or glory" is a ring of light that surrounds a person in art. They are often used in religious works to depict holy or sacred figures, and have at various periods also been used in images of rulers or heroes. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halo_ (religious_iconography) Also in nature, "a halo" or nimbus, icebow or gloriole is an optical phenomenon that appears near or around the Sun or Moon, and sometimes near other strong light sources such as street lights. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halo_(optical_phenomenon) "Out of which a fallen gunfighter might emerge." Trinidad had a history of gunfights - Frank Loving and John Allen Trinidad gunfight in 1880: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trinidad_Gunfight And in 1882, the City of Trinidad hired Bat Masterson to come in and clean up the town. But when he left town (after working with the Earp brothers to clear Doc Holliday) in 1883 it was cleared of gunfights and ready for coal fights. http://www.sangres.com/history/batmasterson.htm Sounds to me like TPR wants to set it up like a movie scenario of the typical gunfight / shoot out. All that's missing is the music, so may I suggest - http://www.youtube.com/watch? v=qSqr35HZ5Bc&feature=related (The Man With No Name - Clint Eastwood) Frank borrows a .44 peacemaker from Ewball because his Smith & Wesson needs a spring. - Frank has been keeping the cartridges from the old Confederate Colt which was given to Mayva but they were supposed to be for Deuce Kindred. - Oh well ... Peacemaker: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single_Action_Army These use the same cartridges? Ewball has a strange kind of anarchism ideas which has some bearing on something here - I don't know what. The two would-be gunmen take their places, Frank in an alley between a photographer's shop and a feed and seed (sounds like where I live) and Ewball across the street. (music while they wait?) ********************* Page 1006 - German Parabellum - a gun http://www.dreamstime.com/german-parabellum-pistole-(pistol- parabellum)-image4855028 Scarsdale sees them but is not "heeled" (armed) so he barks: "Well you see them as clearly as I do, Foley. Take care of it." Foley has a Luger (the Parabellum) and directs it at Scarsdale's heart. " Scarsdale Vibe peered back as if only curious. 'Lord, Foley...' " "Jesus is Lord... " cried Foley and pulled the trigger - eight times. Foley: " 'Hope you fellows don't mind, but it's payday today and I've been in line years ahead of you.' " Frank and Ewball quietly disappear into the crowd while Foley waits patiently for the militia coming down the street. And in the middle of snow and horse shit, Scarsdale bleeds out his blood "nearly black in this midwinter light" and joins the ghosts. Ewball is embarrassed that he didn't get to shoot Scarsdale - (I guess he won the coin toss.) Ewball: "It wasn't you bringing over a supply wagon." ??? (Frank apparently doesn't know either.) ********************************** bekah From bekker2 at mac.com Sun Jul 6 13:55:40 2008 From: bekker2 at mac.com (Bekah) Date: Sun, 06 Jul 2008 11:55:40 -0700 Subject: ATDTDA: (35) Part II - a very brief comment In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6C22CBDE-C7C4-422D-8BCE-A07148C037DD@mac.com> I thought the Angels toward the end of this section were pretty cool. - Angel of Life or Angel of Death or Angel of Independence or Angel of what? Dualities again. Something about the futility of trying to deal in them alone? Are we capable? The Mexican revolution was adequately done but imo, there was a lot of background missing for US readers. You had to read pretty carefully to catch the railroad bombings and anarchist sections - and Lord knows I didn't get into them. The glowing beetles as human souls connected by something "representing" all humanity were exquisite. There were a lot of funny parts in this section - some shades of Carlos Castaneda again - but Mexican magic always seems to come down to either him or Garcia. Bekah On Jul 5, 2008, at 6:32 PM, Bekah wrote: > (My sender addie is messing up - sorry.) > > And the overview of (35) Part II - pgs 982-999 (again, from the > Pynchon Wiki unless noted with ***s. > > ********************************************* > Page 982 > > *** And we now move to Frank in Mexico for the continuing > Revolution (about 2 years into a 20 - year civil war) against the > Diaz government and then against the Madero government and > then ... (see below). This is about 1911/12. > > http://ic.ucsc.edu/~ksgruesz/ltel190f/PynchonGrid.htm > > *** More on the revolution: > > http://cnparm.home.texas.net/Nat/Mx/Mx00.htm > > map: http://www.emersonkent.com/map_archive/mexico_1910.htm > > (nutshell version): http://www.emersonkent.com/ > wars_and_battles_in_history/mexican_revolution.htm > > http://tinyurl.com/5rfocf (scroll down) > > ****!! with good photos including one entitled, "Favorite pastime > of Mexican revolutionaries, blowing up trains." > > > > > *** So first we have the old corrupt Diaz regime, then the Madero > government from 1911 to 1913 when Lascuráin Paredes took over the > presidency (for Huerta) and after a few days Huerta took office > himself for a few years. Huerta was ousted by Venustiano > Carranza Garza who, except for a 10 week interruption by Eulalio > Gutiérrez Ortiz (1914-15), held the high office until 1920. > Magonistas > > Mexican anarchists, followers of brothers Enrique and Ricardo > Flores Magón (1874-1922). During the "Magonista" Revolt of 1911, a > short-lived revolutionary commune was set-up in Baja California. In > present Mexico, the Flores Magon brothers are considered left wing > political icons nearly as notable as Emiliano Zapata, and numerous > streets, towns and neighborhoods are named for them. > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ricardo_Flores_Magón (very > interesting guy - died at Leavenworth) > > ********************************************* > > Page 983 > *** Morelos > A state in southern Mexico. Morelos has always had great > revolutionary activity, and numerous guerrillas have made their > homes and struggled for justice in the region. Most notably, > Anenecuilco in Morelos[clarify] was the home town of Emiliano > Zapata; the state was the center of Zapata's Mexican Revolution > campaign, and a small city in the Morelos is named after him. > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morelos > > *** nice map: http://www.emersonkent.com/map_archive/ > morelos_mexico_map_1910.htm > > *** More names from the Orozquista - the term for those who > followed Pascual Orozco and son in fighting first for the Madero > against Diaz and then against Madero (with cause) side of the > revolution(s): > > http://www.tshaonline.org/handbook/online/articles/OO/for8.html > > Emiliano Zapata - from Morelos, Mexico, begun a serious > insurrection against the (Madero) government..." > > Pascual Orozco 1882-1915, importer of armaments from U.S., > maderista, revolted against Madero government in 1912. > > Pascual Orozco,Jr. (1882-1915) was a Mexican revolutionary hero and > leader - first against Diaz and then against Madero. Worked with > Pancho Villa - defeated by Huerta.) > > José Inés Salazar was longtime colleague of Pascual Orozco and > later one of the leading Orozquista generals. > > Braulio Hernández A prominent Maderista but later became a radical > Orozquista. > > Photos of Revolution people: http://www.texancultures.utsa.edu/ > library/bakerPhotos.htm (includes Villa, Orozco and > Hernandez in different photos) > > Pancho Villa a prominent leader of the Revolution - joined > Orozuistas after Madero's murder > > José Gonzáles Salas Maderista general in command against Orozco > > the country around Jiménez . . . > The region around Jiménez, a mining center in Chihuahua 130 miles > south of Chihuahua City, is known for large number of meteorites, > some of them discovered by the Spaniards in 16th and 17th > centuries, and now exhibited in Palacio de Mineria (Minery Palace) > in Mexico city. > > http://against-the-day.pynchonwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=J > > "In 1852, two meteorites were found about 16 miles from Jimenez > (formerly Huejuquilla), Chihuahua, Mexico. The two masses were > removed in 1891 to the School of Mines, Mexico City." With a > weight of 14.114 tons, Chupaderos I is ranked as the 10th largest > meteorite in the world; and Chupaderos II with a weight of 6.767 > tons ranked 14th. Photos of Chupaderos I and Chupaderos II. > > *** Chupaderos II meteorite: http://www.jensenmeteorites.com/ > Chupaderos/Chupad(II)-1.jpg > > *** Chupaderos I meteorite: http://www.jensenmeteorites.com/ > Chupaderos/Chupad(1)-3.jpg > > > > "... the Bolsón de Mapimí" > > A small desert area east of Jiménez, > > ********************************************* > > Page 984 > *** Frank is looking around in the Bolsón de Mapimí when he finds > a little meteorite (?) which seems to speak to him > "máquina loca" > Spanish: crazy machine. The translation of máquina is often tuned > to the context: here, "locomotive." > > *** History of trains in Mexico: http://www.2020site.org/ > mexicanrailway/central.html > > *** photo of derailment or bombing/?: http://www.emersonkent.com/ > wars_and_battles_in_history/mexican_revolution.htm > > *** Oh shades of the Kieselguhr Kid. > > "a sus órdenes" > > Spanish: (ready) for your orders. In English one would say, "at > your service." > > "One prong of the government attack . . . between Corralitos and > Rellano . . ." > The Battle of Rellano. The Battle of Rellano was the high-water > mark of the Orozquista military campaign. > > Andale, muchachos > > Spanish: let's go, boys. > > ********************************************* > > Page 985 > Parral > Parral is where Pancho Villa was assassinated on July 20, 1923. > Apparently someone remembered the sacking, dynamiting, looting, and > killing. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parral%2C_Chihuahua > > El Espinero = Tarahumara duende - is this the place Frank was > guided to - for a railroad battle? > > ********************************************* > > Page 986 > *** Victoriano Huerta - fought for Madero until he usurped power > himself. Cf page 376 (Frank and Ewball run into Huerta and his men > prior to all this) > > Tampico > > cf. page 637, where (and when) Frank first meets Günther. > > Orizaba product > One of the leading industries of Orizaba is the Cervecería > Moctezuma brewery which was established in 1896. > > Chiapas > cf. page 637 > > ** Situation not hopeful - Huerta has guns, Orozco no. > > The "Maquina loca tactic" will eventually fail - (this was the > tactic of hiding a hijacked locomotive behind enemy lines and and > packing it with explosives. Then sending it full throttle into the > cars in front of it. > > Frank gets to Mexico City where he meets up with > > Günther von Quassel > > a "wealthy coffee scion" and Yashmeen's old boyfriend; inhabits > "his own idiomatic 'frame of reference'" 599; aka "El Atildado" in > Mexico, with Frank Traverse, 637; in Mexico City, 986; > > "quasseln" is a German verb, meaning roughly "to jabber" > > ********************************************* > > Page 987 > > Gunther and Frank catch up on stuff: > > Oaxaca http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oaxaca > > cafetal > Spanish: coffee plantation. > > The work is being mechanized and there is really no insurgency in > Oaxaca - only family disputes and banditry. > > jefe politico > Spanish: political boss. > > Juchitán > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Juchitán_de_Zaragoza > > Benito Juárez Maza - son of Benito Juarez president of Mexico > (1858-1872) Governor of Oaxaca from 1911 until his death the next > year. > > ********************************************* > Page 988 > > chegomista > Follower of Che Gómez,mayor of Juichitan, follower of Madero until > he was double crossed. > > http://tinyurl.com/5om2f > > "El Reparador" > Spanish: "The Fixer." Epithet of a hundred operators in crime > literature. Or, as the text eventually suggests, "The Repairman." > > Ibargüengoitia > Speculation on this surname: Jorge Ibargüengoitia was a novelist > and playwright who wrote, among other things, Los Relámpagos de > Agosto (The Lightning of August, 1964), which uses cartoonish > mayhem to debunk the Mexican Revolution's heroic myths; improbably > it won for its author the Premio Casa de las Américas, despite or > because of the consternation which its flippancy caused. > > Ibargüengoitia is also the name of the "Genevan contact" that > Slothrop meets on behalf of Squalidozzi the Argentine anarchist in GR. > > On p. 384 Squalidozzi's shipmate Belaustegui asks why he didn't > deliver the message himself: > "Why didn't you go to Geneva and try to get through to us?" > "I didn't want to lead them to Ibargüengoitia. I sent someone else." > > Chapultepec Park > Chapultepec Park is an enormous green area in the middle of Mexico > City covering 2,000 acres, containing three of the city's most > importnat museums, an amusement park, several lakes, the only > genuine castle in North America,, Mexico's largest zoo and the > residence of the President of Mexico, Los Pinos. Chapultepec Castle > is also known as "The Halls of Montezuma." > > Wie geht's, mein alter Kumpel > German: How are you, my old workmate? > > ********************************************* > Page 989 > > the new Monument to National Independence > Mexico City's No.1 landmark. The Monumento de la Independencia, > situated on a roundabout at the Paseo de la Reforma (Reform Avenue) > in Mexico City's downtown area, was inaugurated in 1910. The > sculptures that surround the base represent Law, Justice, War and > Peace. On top of the monument is a winged and gilded angel, known > as Angel de la Independencia, or just El Angel. See photo of > El Angel. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/El_Ángel > > When his eyes refocused, whoever had spoken had moved on and Frank > has, at recognizing Dally's face, gone into the same kind of > trance, a merger with the moment, or with the machine, that had > almost taken him into the collision with the Federal train on P. > 985. The warning words seem to be "crazy machine", "dead" and > "you". A warning from the Angel of Death, via another Alternate > Communication channel. > > > a face he recognized > Another angel modeled on Dally? El Angel was sculpted by Enrique > Alciati. > > "máquina loca," "muerte" and "tú" > Spanish: "crazy locomotive," "dead" and "you." > > > Why the Angel of Death rather than the Angel of Light? > "Frank could see The Angel "in the declining sunlight..." > > http://www.zanzig.com/travel/mexico-photos/m005-070.htm > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/El_Ángel > > abrazo > Spanish: hug. > > "sinvergüencistas" > From sin vergüenza, Spanish: without shame. The -istas ending makes > it refer to a group of adherents. > > Ibargüengoitia gets Frank and Gunter out of Vera Cruz, down to > Frontera . . . to Villahermosa, Tuxtla Gutiérrez . . . and across > the Sierra to the Pacific coast where lies Gunter's plantation, on > the Pacific coast around Tapachula near the border with Guatemala. > > "Tu madre chingada puta" > Rude, rude Spanish: Your mother's a fucking whore. > > > > ********************************************* > Page 990 > > Machine-Age nightmare . . . the future of coffee > Another Crazy Machine, or perhaps "Out of Control" machine (the > governor on the locomotive on P.985 "no longer regulated > anything"). Industrialization has struck again. > > *** Chamula - a city in Chiapas comprised of Tzotzil Mayan Indians > who work (and have been worked) on coffee and sugar plantations. > The city is autonomous within Mexico. > > *** http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tzotzil > > *** http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tzotzil_people > > *** Today many in the Zapatista Liberation movement are Tzotzil. > > *** http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ > Zapatista_Army_of_National_Liberation > > Chamula is near San Cristóbal > > http://wild-net.com.au/mexico/html/san_cristobal.phtml > > Tuxtla - the capital of Chiapas > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuxtla_Gutiérrez (nice positional map > of Mexico) > > Tapachula > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tapachula > > El Quetzal Dormido > The Sleeping Quetzal. Quetzals are elaborately-plumed birds of the > genera Pharomachrus and Euptilotis, and are in the trogon family. > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quetzal > > http://cloudbridge.org/avifauna.htm > > > > And Frank "had observed, or thought he had ..." " > > Brujos;" male witches > > Frank meets Melpómene in "El Quetzal Dormido" > > Melpómene is the name of the Greek muse of song and tragedy. http:// > en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melpomene > > *** see also "18 Melpomene" a large, bright asteroid located in > the Main Belt, discovered by John Russel Hind on June 24, 1852, and > named after aforementioned muse. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ > 18_Melpomene > > > Palenque - a small town in Chiapas, powerful in the Mayan Era. > Overrun by jungle today. > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palenque > > ********************************************* > Page 991 > > guayuleros - wild rubber workers of the old days. Pancho Villa´s > cross-border raids scared off "guayuleros" in Southwestern U.S. > > Melpómene tells Frank about the cucuji > According to the text they are "giant luminous beetles." Pynchon > seems to have read this "Handbook for Travellers" Google Books scan > to Mexico, written in 1907, by Thomas Phillip Terry. This passage > includes descriptions of reading by their light, simultaneous > flashing, use by women under thin veils, and small cages containing > several beetles acting as torches > > http://tinyurl.com/6r8vec > > tinterillo - told Melpomene that the little cucuji were very bright > Legal scribe. A "writer to prepare papers, collect and adduce > evidence in legal cases, such as was to be submitted to illiterate > judges of such tribunals as then existed." (From here, p 160.) > > > > > Ahora, apágate > Spanish: Now put yourself out, extinguish yourself. > > Bueno > Good. > > > > *** And Frank has a little communication going with a beetle named > Pedro who lets him know that he is Frank's soul and that all the > little lit up beetles are the souls of all who had ever passed > through his life and that they all went to make a single soul. > > *** " 'In the same way,' amplified Gunther, 'that our Savior could > inform his disciples with a straight face that bread and wine were > indistinguishable from his body and blood. Light, in any case, > among these Indians of Chiapas, occupies and analoguous position to > flesh among Christians. It is living tissue. As the brain is the > outward and visible expression of the Mind.' " > > Yeah? > > ********************************************* > Page 992 > > instantaneously > In violation of Einstein's special theory of relativity. a > wireless, immediate, human way of communicating. > > Caray . . . novio . . . > Spanish: Good heavens . . . boyfriend . . . > > Mazatán > http://www.travelpost.com/NA/Mexico/Chiapas/Mazatan/7645531 > > Qué > Spanish: What, as in "what the fuck?" > > querida > Spanish: dear, darling. > > ********************************************* > Page 993 > > ** alternate communication systems - telepathic** > > It is like the telephone exchange . . . the single greater organism > remains intact, coherent, connected. > Actually not like the telephone exchange. On P. 708, Derrick Theign > worries that in case of war, telephone and telegraph will become > unreliable; this is his reason for creating the R.U.S.H. This > telepathic network, like an unfailing cell phone network, is far > more reliable. > > ** On page 993 Gunther talks about a network of Indians in > telepathic communication. > > Tenochtitlán > Tenochtitlán was the capital of the Aztec empire, built on an > island in Lake Texcoco in what is now the Federal District in > central Mexico. At its height, it was one of the largest cities in > the world, with over 200,000 inhabitants. The city was destroyed in > 1521 by Spanish conquistadors. Mexico City was erected on top of > the ruin. > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tenochtitlan > > Angel of the Fourth Glorieta on Reforma > > Glorieta is a monument. See the angel, pg. 989. > > "As a gateway the arch seemed to define two different parts of the > city..." > > *** http://www.flickr.com/photos/44011434 at N00/2404223525 > > ********************************************* > Page 994 > > He knew what it was but could not find its name in his memory > Presumably the unknown menace from which Aztlan's inhabitants fled. > But suggestive both of air attack and the menace of North American > industrialization. > > ***!!!! Air attack? What is this? Indeed! the US sends > aeroplanes to support Huerta? (NYTimes 5/24/1912) > > tezontle > The colonists and Indian artisans employed local tezontle, a light > and porous volcanic rock, to create elaborate facades on buildings. > > tepetate > A porous whitish-yellow rock used in building construction when cut > into blocks. As a construction material tepetate has played a major > role in the development of modern Mexico. > > indicative world > Very potent phrase. The world of everyday reality, indicating the > deepeer reality of the visions? The indicative mood in grammar is > the mood of simple declarative statements, plain facts: there was > Melpomene, here is a chair. A mood incommensurate with Frank's trance. > > the Huerta coup > Against Madero, who was shot, February 1913. > > Ciudadela > http://archaeology.asu.edu/teo/intro/ciudad.htm > > Félix Díaz - Huerta supporter until he was duped. > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Félix_Díaz > > Decena Trágica > Spanish: the tragic ten days (before the assassination of President > Modero) > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_decena_trágica > > Zócalo -A zócalo is a central town square or plaza. > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zocalo > > el palacio blanco > Spanish: the white palace > > Pino Suárez - Vice President of Mexico from 1911 to 1913 > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/José_María_Pino_Suárez > > ********************************************* > Page 995 > > It was the first time he was aware of getting paid for being > stupid. Could there be a future in this? Sounds like another > Pynchonian 'in-joke'. In "Vineland", Zoyd Wheeler is getting his > yearly cheques for precisely that, i.e. doing something stupid. > > ********************************************* > Page 996 > > ¡Epa! > Spanish: Whoa! Soccer (fútbol) announcers interject ¡Epa! when two > players have a very physical coming together. > > Since last September the mine workers' union had been out on strike > The Colorado "coal war" of September 1913 to April 1914; here is an > eye-opening account. > > Just a taste of what's coming a bit later in Ludlow: > > http://www.du.edu/anthro/ludlow/cfhist.html > > ********************************************* > Page 997 > > Pagosa Springs > South Central Colorado town in the heart of the San Juan Forest. > > 1914 with photos: http://gawiz.com/HistoryoftheRanches.htm > > ********************************************* > > Page 998 > > ...over Wolf Creek Pass, into the San Luis Valley...San Luis > Basin...through Fort Garland...up the Sangre de Cristos over North > La Veta Pass...the first rooftops of Walsenburg. > The route described would take them from the presumably UMW- > sympathetic mining country in the San Juans, north and east along > current US highway 160 (called the Navaho Trail), across the San > Luis Valley and Basin to North La Veta Pass, with Walsenburg and > the prairies and canyons of the coal country beyond to the east > (the only safe approach to the striking mines). > > > http://tinyurl.com/65g53v > > The geography of this journey is as carefully described as the > various characters' journeys through the Balkans (the description > of the view of the Spanish Peaks and Culebra Range are absolutely > accurate), and there must be a reason, something these regions have > in common. > > The San Luis Valley and immediately adjacent areas are the furthest > northeastern reaches of the Spanish Empire in North America, part > of the Province of Nueva Mexico del Norte of New Spain, later > Mexico (part of which became the state of New Mexico in 1912). The > area around Telluride would be the northern border of Pynchon's > vision of Aztlan (it is in fact the northern border of the Pueblo > settlements). These are, therefore, like the Balkans, borders > between newly industrializing empires and older, tribally- > organized, "pre-scientific" cultures (both with indigenous mystical/ > spiritual traditions, with which the characters interact). Here and > in nearby Mexico, mechanization and industrialization of resource > extraction are causing heartbreaking exploitation and violence, and > the indigenous shamanism and mysticism and their unmediated power > are being destroyed by advancing industrial civilization, exactly > as described by Dwight Prance on P.777. > > Niall Ferguson(The War of the World: Twentieth Century Conflict and > the Descent of the West, Penguin Press, 2006) points to three > demonstrated conditions for becoming a conflict flashpoint: (1) > Multi-ethnic population (2) location at the border of a failing > empire (3) economic volatility (See note to P.939). Both the > Balkans and the American Southwest/Mexico fulfilled those conditions. > > > > > > ********************************************* > ** Also see: > http://chumpsofchoice.blogspot.com/2007/10/what-i-tell-you-three- > times-is-true.html > From krafftjm at muohio.edu Mon Jul 7 10:59:09 2008 From: krafftjm at muohio.edu (Krafft, John M.) Date: Mon, 7 Jul 2008 11:59:09 -0400 Subject: FW: NPR.org - Celebrating The Fourth With Rebellion : NPR In-Reply-To: <20080707152434.77B9E5E419C@jupiter0.npr.org> References: <20080707152434.77B9E5E419C@jupiter0.npr.org> Message-ID: I kept waiting for this to show up on the list, but y'all must have been too busy celebrating to listen to NPR. John ________________________________________ Celebrating The Fourth With Rebellion : NPR http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=92074564&sc=emaf *Listen/Watch on NPR.org* Many stories at NPR.org have audio or video content. When you visit the link above, look for a "Listen" or "Watch" button. For technical support, please visit NPR's Audio/Video Help page: http://www.npr.org/help/media.html -- John M. Krafft / English Miami University–Hamilton / 1601 University Blvd. / Hamilton, OH 45011-3399 Tel: 513.785.3031 or 513.868.2330 Fax: 513.785.3145 E-mail: krafftjm at muohio.edu WWW: http://www.ham.muohio.edu/~krafftjm or http://PynchonNotes.org From mryc2903 at yahoo.fr Mon Jul 7 11:36:54 2008 From: mryc2903 at yahoo.fr (Michel Ryckx) Date: Mon, 07 Jul 2008 18:36:54 +0200 Subject: Sunday's radio program about Pynchon In-Reply-To: <614761.96867.qm@web27606.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> References: <614761.96867.qm@web27606.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <48724626.2050405@yahoo.fr> Hi, Am listening to it now -- can be found at http://rapidshare.com/files/126025520/Pynchon_Generator.mp3 and shortly at a Pynchon site. Only 45 MB. Sascha's great. Only in German. Michel. Krafft, John M. Dr. wrote: > Did anyone manage to capture it as a file, or can anyone point me to a (preferably savable) online archive of it? thanks. > > John ___________________________________________________________________________ Avez-vous essay� le nouveau Yahoo! Mail ? Plus rapide, plus efficace... simplement r�volutionnaire ! D�couvrez-le. Lien :http://fr.mail.yahoo.com From bekker2 at mac.com Mon Jul 7 21:43:10 2008 From: bekker2 at mac.com (Becky Alexander) Date: Mon, 07 Jul 2008 19:43:10 -0700 Subject: ATDTDA (36) Mother Jones Message-ID: This is section of Mother Jones' autobiography relevant to the Luddlow Massacre. http://womenshistory.about.com/library/etext/mj/ bl_mj21.htm From The Autobiography of Mother Jones Chapter XXI: In Rockefeller's Prisons In January, 1914, I returned to Colorado. When I got off the train at Trinidad, the militia met me and ordered me back on the train. Nevertheless, I got off. They marched me to the telegrapher's office, then they changed their minds, and took me to the hotel where they had their headquarters. I told them I wanted to get my breakfast. They escorted me to the dining room. "Who is paying for my breakfast?" said I. "The state," said they. "Then as the guest of the state of Colorado I'll order a good breakfast." And I did-all the way from bacon to pie. The train for Denver pulled in. The military put me aboard it. When we reached Walsenburg; a delegation of miners met the train, singing a miner's song. They sang at the top their lungs till the silent, old mountains see to prick up their ears. They swarmed into the train. "God bless you, Mother!" "God bless you, my boys!" "Mother, is your coat warm enough? It's; freezing cold in the hills!" "I'm all right, my lad." The chap had no overcoat -- a cheap cotton suit, and a bit of woolen rag around his neck. Outside in the station stood the militia. One of them was a fiend. He went about swinging his gun, hitting the miners, and trying to prod them into a fight, hurling vile oaths at them. But the boys kept cool and I could hear them singing above the 'shriek of the whistle as the train pulled out of the depot and wound away through the hills. From January on until the final brutal out-rage, --the burning of the tent colony in Ludlow -- my ears wearied with the stories of brutality and suffering. My eyes ached with the misery I witnessed. My brain sickened with the knowledge of man's inhumanity to man. It was, "Oh, Mother, my daughter has been assaulted by the soldiers- such a little girl!" "Oh, Mother, did you hear how the soldiers entered Mrs. Hall's house, how they terrified the little children, wrecked the home, and did worse-terrible things-and just because Mr. Hall, the undertaker, had buried two miners whom the militia had killed!" "And, Oh Mother, did you hear how they are arresting miners for vagrancy, for loafing, and making them work in company ditches without pay, making them haul coal and clear snow up to the mines for nothing!" "Mother, Mother, listen! A Polish fellow arrived as a strike breaker. He didn't know there was a strike. He was a big, strapping fellow. They gave him a star and a gun and told him to shoot strikers!" "Oh, Mother, they've brought in a shipment of guns and machine guns- what's to happen to us!" A frantic mother clutched me. "Mother Jones," she screamed, "Mother Jones, my little boy's all swollen up with the kicking and beating he got from a soldier because he said, 'Howdy, John D. feller!' 'Twas just a kid teasing, and now he's lying like dead !" "Mother, 'tis an outrage for an adjutant general of the state to shake his fist and holler in the face of a grey-haired widow for singing a union song in her own kitchen while she washes the dishes!" "It is all an outrage," said I. 'Tis an outrage indeed that Rockefller should own the coal that God put in the earth for all the people. 'Tis an outrage that gunmen and soldiers are here protecting mines against workmen who ask bit more than a crust, a bit more than bondage! 'Tis an ocean of outrage !" "Mother, did you hear of poor, old Colner? e was going to the postoffice and was arrested by the milita. They marched him down hill, making him carry a shovel and a pick his back. They told him he was to die and must dig his own grave. He stumbled and fell on the road. They kicked him and he staggered up. He begged to be allowed to go home kiss his wife and children goodbye. "We'll do the kissing," laughed the soldiers At the place they picked out for his grave, they measured him, and then they ordered to dig- two feet deeper, they told him. Old Colner began digging while the soldiers stood around laughing and cursing and playing craps for his tin watch. Then Colner fell fainting into the grave. The soldiers left him there till he recovered by himself. There he was alone and he staggered back to camp, Mother, and he isn't quite right in the head!" I sat through long nights with sobbing widows, watching the candles about the corpse of the husband burn down to their sockets. "Get out and fight," I told those women. "Fight like hell till you go to Heaven t" That was the only way I knew to comfort them. I nursed men back to sanity who were driven to despair. I solicited clothes for the ragged children, for the desperate mothers. I laid out the dead, the martyrs of the strike. I kept the men away from the saloons, whose licenses as well as those of the brothels, were held by the Rockefeller interests. The miners armed, armed as it is permitted every American citizen to do in defense of his home, his family; as he is permitted to do against invasion. The smoke of armed battle rose from the arroyos and ravines of the Rocky Mountains. No one listened. No one cared. The tickers in the offices of 26 Broadway sounded louder than the sobs of women and children. Men in the steam heated luxury of Broadway offices could not feel the stinging cold of Colorado hill-sides where families lived in tents. Then came Ludlow and the nation heard. Little children roasted alive make a front page story. Dying by inches of starvation and exposure does not. On the 19th of April, 1914, machine guns, used on the strikers in the Paint Creek strike, were placed in position above the tent colony of Ludlow. Major Pat Hamrock and Lieutenant K. E. Linderfelt were in charge of the militia, the majority of whom were, company gun-men sworn in as soldiers. Early in the morning soldiers approached the colony with a demand from headquarters that Louis Tikas, leader of the Greeks, surrender two Italians. Tikas demanded a warrant for their arrest. They had none. Tikas refused to surrender them. The soldiers returned to quarters. A signal bomb was fired. Then another. Immediately the machine guns began spraying the flimsy tent colony, the only home the wretched families of the miners had, riddling it with bullets. Like iron rain, bullets' upon men, women and children. The women and children fled to the hills. Others tarried. The men defended their home with their guns. All day long the firing continued. Men fell dead, their faces to the ground. Women dropped. The little Snyder boy was shot through the head, trying to save his kitten. A child carrying water to his dying mother was killed. By five o'clock in the afternoon, the miners had no more food, nor water, nor ammunition. They had to retreat with their wives and little ones into the hills. Louis Tikas was riddled with shots while he tried to lead women and children to safety. They perished with him. Night came. A raw wind blew down the canyons where men, women and children shivered and wept. Then a blaze lighted the sky. The soldiers, drunk with blood and with the liquor they had looted from the saloon, set fire to the tents of Ludlow with oil-soaked torches. The tents, all the poor furnishings, the clothes and bedding of the miners' families burned. Coils of barbed wire were stuffed into the well, the miners' only water supply. After it was over, the wretched people crept back to bury their dead. In a dugout under a burned tent, the charred bodies of eleven little children and two women were found-unrecognizable. Everything lay in ruins. The wires of bed springs writhed on the ground as if they, too, had tried to flee the horror. Oil and fire and guns had robbed men and women and children of their homes and slaughtered tiny babies and defenseless women. Done by order of Lieutenant Linderfelt, a savage, brutal executor of the will of the Colorado Fuel and Iron Company. The strikers issued a general call to arms: Every able bodied man must shoulder a gun to protect himself and his family from assassins, from arson and plunder. From jungle days to our own so- named civilization, this is a man's inherent right. To a man they armed, through-out the whole strike district. Ludlow went on burning in their hearts. Everybody got busy. A delegation from Ludlow went to see President Wilson. Among them was Mrs. Petrucci whose three tiny babies were crisped to death in the black hole of Ludlow. She had something to say to her President. Immediately he sent the United States cavalry to quell the gunmen. He studied the situation, and drew up proposals for a three-year truce, binding miner and operator. The operators scornfully refused. A mass meeting was called in Denver. Lindsay spoke. He demanded that the operators be made to respect the laws of Colorado. That something be done immediately. The Denver Real Estate Exchange appointed a committee to spit on Judge Lindsey for his espousal of the cause of the miners. Rockefeller got busy. Writers were hired to write pamphlets which were sent broadcast to every editor in the country, bulletins. In these leaflets, it was shown how perfectly happy was the life of the miner until the agitators came; how joyous he was with the company's saloon,. the company's pigstys for homes, the cornpany's teachers and preachers and coroners. How the miners hated the state law of an eight-hour working day, begging to be allowed to work ten, twelve. How they hated the state law that they should have their own check weigh-man to see that they were not cheated at the tipple. And all the while the mothers of the children who died in Ludlow were mourning their dead. *** Bekah From markekohut at yahoo.com Mon Jul 7 22:32:32 2008 From: markekohut at yahoo.com (Mark Kohut) Date: Mon, 7 Jul 2008 20:32:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Fw: Wall-E linked to a "Pynchon rumination" Message-ID: <513778.70075.qm@web38403.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- On Mon, 7/7/08, Mark Kohut wrote: > From: Mark Kohut > Subject: Wall-E linked to a "Pynchon rumination" > To: "Peter Cleland" , "Brad Andrews" , "nancy" , "Batte, Jim" , "Mark Kohut" > Date: Monday, July 7, 2008, 11:21 PM > http://blog.beliefnet.com/crunchycon/2008/07/walle-and-art-history.html > > -- > Mark Kohut (& Associates) > 63 Western Ave. > Jersey City, NJ 07307 > 646-519-1956 > 201-795-9388 From bekker2 at mac.com Tue Jul 8 01:33:05 2008 From: bekker2 at mac.com (Bekah) Date: Mon, 07 Jul 2008 23:33:05 -0700 Subject: AtD - (36) pgs 1007 - 1012 Message-ID: Starting at page 1007 - This whole Ludlow section is written exactly like the history as it's documented in several places on the net - a few mentioned below. All that deliberate misery-making can get quite depressing. There is no need here for anything other than a pretty straightforward account (and inserting some characters) - the events speak for themselves. Winter of 1913-1914 Stray goes from Trinidad to Ludlow (about 12 miles southeast) where the coal miners had been striking and living in a tent colony since September. * The tent colony was for those union members who were on strike and therefore had been evicted from their company owned homes. These * Guns lined up: (!) http://courses.ed.asu.edu/margolis/life/homepage_files/image021a.gif Ludlow Massacre: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ludlow_Massacre http://www.cobar.org/index.cfm/ID/581/dpwfp/Historical-Foreward-and- Bibliography/ Excellent Photo Galleries -( scroll right) http://www.du.edu/anthro/ludlow/cfphoto.html Today Ludlow is a ghost town - http://www.cultimedia.ch/ghosttowns/htme/ludlowco.htm with a monument: http://www.flickr.com/photos/surlymonkey/935096702/ * Photo of the "Death Car" http://courses.ed.asu.edu/margolis/life/homepage_files/image010a.gif "They used an improvised armored car, mounted with a M1895 Colt- Browning machine gun that the union called the "Death Special," to patrol the camp's perimeters. The steel-covered car was built in the CF&I plant in Pueblo from the chassis of a large touring sedan. Because of frequent sniping on the tent colonies, miners dug protective pits beneath the tents where they and their families could seek shelter." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ludlow_Massacre#The_mine_strike ********************* page 108 Jesse shows up via the Colorado and Southern railway http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:C%26S_RR_map.jpg * Light as torture / darkness as compassion "The Colorodo militia were in fact giving light a bad name. Military wisdom had it that putting searchlights on the enemy allowed you to see them, while blinding them to you, giving you an inestimable edge both tactical and psychological. In the tents, darkness in that awful winter was sought like warmth or quiet. It seemed like a form of compassion. " Jesse goes out - comes back smug and the lights are out. ********************* page 109 It was a very bad winter - tents collapse from the snow, etc. http://www.sangres.com/history/coalfieldwar01.htm http://courses.ed.asu.edu/margolis/life/homepage_files/exp01.htm (stick around there - the images change) * Strike breakers coming in via cattle cars from Pennsylvania and trains escorted from the Mexican border. There were 24 languages spoken in the tent city. http://www.cobar.org/index.cfm/ID/581/dpwfp/Historical-Foreward-and- Bibliography/ * Moss Gatlin (Johann Most?) preaches forbearance and violence at the same time http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johann_Most * The mood grows uglier, women are raped, kids are beaten, in Trinidad the military attacked women marching in support of the strike, no one killed (to this point) see "The Autobiography of Mother Jones" - Part 3: http://www.angelfire.com/nj3/RonMBaseman/mojones3.htm * The 2 colt machine guns on armored "Death Car" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M1895_Colt-Browning_machine_gun Baldwin-Felts "detective" agency. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baldwin-Felts "Baldwin-Felts had a reputation for aggressive strike breaking. Agents shone searchlights on the tent villages at night and randomly fired into the tents, occasionally killing and maiming people. They used an improvised armored car, mounted with a M1895 Colt-Browning machine gun that the union called the "Death Special," to patrol the camp's perimeters. The steel-covered car was built in the CF&I plant in Pueblo from the chassis of a large touring sedan. Because of frequent sniping on the tent colonies, miners dug protective pits beneath the tents where they and their families could seek shelter. " A different pov: http://www.baldwinfeltsdetectives.com/ (right - just fyi) ******* page 1010 Guardsmen are bad news - blonde - shades of Nazi Jesse finds a level of evil never expected in adults until now. Not one but a whole fleet of Death Specials and the drivers fear they will be the victims. Jessie denies association with Union group **** page 1011 but Jessie also steals two 30 caliber machine gun rounds to prevent them being shot Meanwhile, (and at this point it's April 19, 1914 or so - the day prior to the massacre) Frank Traverse is in Aguilar, between Walsenberg and Trinidad at the 29 Luglio Saloon named for Anarchist Bresci assassinated King Umberto of Italy http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaetano_Bresci He's checking out a gun - (imaginary? no) Benet Mercier http://tinyurl.com/63bttu (follow links): http://forums.gunboards.com/archive/index.php? t-20386.html Empire Mine - dangerous there was an explosion there killing 13 people in 1919 NY Times 3 days after Ludlow Massacre: http://tinyurl.com/4qvvb5 Frank sees a woman who looks like Michelangelo's Pieta to others: (in case you forgot) http://www.saintpetersbasilica.org/Altars/Pieta/Pieta-ah06.jpg Stray - recognizes Frank and tells him the night's young It's Stray - dressed as a "Sister of Charity" http://jama.ama-assn.org/content/vol296/issue8/images/medium/ jbk60126fa.jpg *************** Page 1012 Frank and Stray get reacquainted, there in the bar and find out if each other is free, relationship wise - Ewball / Ren Frank is not just Reef without the loco streak - he's different - not so readable now here in coalfields which were about to explode Frank: "They're fixing to do away with all them tents." "Creeping along, her nun's shadow in the search light beams..." April 19 - Jesse has gone with Balkan kids - "It's their Easter or somethin." The Balkan kids" would likely be Eastern Orthodox religion and their Easter falls at some point between early April to early May, following the cycle of the moon. After several centuries of disagreement, all churches accepted the computation of the Alexandrian Church (now the Coptic Church) that Easter is the first Sunday after the first fourteenth day of the moon (the Paschal Full Moon) that is on or after the ecclesiastical vernal equinox. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Easter *********************** From bekker2 at mac.com Tue Jul 8 01:52:46 2008 From: bekker2 at mac.com (Bekah) Date: Mon, 07 Jul 2008 23:52:46 -0700 Subject: AtD - (36) pgs 1007 - 1012 Message-ID: I apologize if this turns up twice - it's not getting through for some reason - ? Starting at page 1007 - This whole Ludlow section is written exactly like the history as it's documented in several places on the net - a few mentioned below. All that deliberate misery-making can get quite depressing. There is no need here for anything other than a pretty straightforward account (and inserting some characters) - the events speak for themselves. Winter of 1913-1914 Stray goes from Trinidad to Ludlow (about 12 miles southeast) where the coal miners had been striking and living in a tent colony since September. * The tent colony was for those union members who were on strike and therefore had been evicted from their company owned homes. These * Guns lined up: (!) http://courses.ed.asu.edu/margolis/life/homepage_files/image021a.gif Ludlow Massacre: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ludlow_Massacre http://www.cobar.org/index.cfm/ID/581/dpwfp/Historical-Foreward-and- Bibliography/ Excellent Photo Galleries -( scroll right) http://www.du.edu/anthro/ludlow/cfphoto.html Today Ludlow is a ghost town - http://www.cultimedia.ch/ghosttowns/htme/ludlowco.htm with a monument: http://www.flickr.com/photos/surlymonkey/935096702/ * Photo of the "Death Car" http://courses.ed.asu.edu/margolis/life/homepage_files/image010a.gif "They used an improvised armored car, mounted with a M1895 Colt- Browning machine gun that the union called the "Death Special," to patrol the camp's perimeters. The steel-covered car was built in the CF&I plant in Pueblo from the chassis of a large touring sedan. Because of frequent sniping on the tent colonies, miners dug protective pits beneath the tents where they and their families could seek shelter." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ludlow_Massacre#The_mine_strike ********************* page 108 Jesse shows up via the Colorado and Southern railway http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:C%26S_RR_map.jpg * Light as torture / darkness as compassion "The Colorodo militia were in fact giving light a bad name. Military wisdom had it that putting searchlights on the enemy allowed you to see them, while blinding them to you, giving you an inestimable edge both tactical and psychological. In the tents, darkness in that awful winter was sought like warmth or quiet. It seemed like a form of compassion. " Jesse goes out - comes back smug and the lights are out. ********************* page 109 It was a very bad winter - tents collapse from the snow, etc. http://www.sangres.com/history/coalfieldwar01.htm http://courses.ed.asu.edu/margolis/life/homepage_files/exp01.htm (stick around there - the images change) * Strike breakers coming in via cattle cars from Pennsylvania and trains escorted from the Mexican border. There were 24 languages spoken in the tent city. http://www.cobar.org/index.cfm/ID/581/dpwfp/Historical-Foreward-and- Bibliography/ * Moss Gatlin (Johann Most?) preaches forbearance and violence at the same time http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johann_Most * The mood grows uglier, women are raped, kids are beaten, in Trinidad the military attacked women marching in support of the strike, no one killed (to this point) see "The Autobiography of Mother Jones" - Part 3: http://www.angelfire.com/nj3/RonMBaseman/mojones3.htm * The 2 colt machine guns on armored "Death Car" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M1895_Colt-Browning_machine_gun Baldwin-Felts "detective" agency. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baldwin-Felts "Baldwin-Felts had a reputation for aggressive strike breaking. Agents shone searchlights on the tent villages at night and randomly fired into the tents, occasionally killing and maiming people. They used an improvised armored car, mounted with a M1895 Colt-Browning machine gun that the union called the "Death Special," to patrol the camp's perimeters. The steel-covered car was built in the CF&I plant in Pueblo from the chassis of a large touring sedan. Because of frequent sniping on the tent colonies, miners dug protective pits beneath the tents where they and their families could seek shelter. " A different pov: http://www.baldwinfeltsdetectives.com/ (right - just fyi) ******* page 1010 Guardsmen are bad news - blonde - shades of Nazi Jesse finds a level of evil never expected in adults until now. Not one but a whole fleet of Death Specials and the drivers fear they will be the victims. Jessie denies association with Union group **** page 1011 but Jessie also steals two 30 caliber machine gun rounds to prevent them being shot Meanwhile, (and at this point it's April 19, 1914 or so - the day prior to the massacre) Frank Traverse is in Aguilar, between Walsenberg and Trinidad at the 29 Luglio Saloon named for Anarchist Bresci assassinated King Umberto of Italy http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaetano_Bresci He's checking out a gun - (imaginary? no) Benet Mercier http://tinyurl.com/63bttu (follow links): http://forums.gunboards.com/archive/index.php? t-20386.html Empire Mine - dangerous there was an explosion there killing 13 people in 1919 NY Times 3 days after Ludlow Massacre: http://tinyurl.com/4qvvb5 Frank sees a woman who looks like Michelangelo's Pieta to others: (in case you forgot) http://www.saintpetersbasilica.org/Altars/Pieta/Pieta-ah06.jpg Stray - recognizes Frank and tells him the night's young It's Stray - dressed as a "Sister of Charity" http://jama.ama-assn.org/content/vol296/issue8/images/medium/ jbk60126fa.jpg *************** Page 1012 Frank and Stray get reacquainted, there in the bar and find out if each other is free, relationship wise - Ewball / Ren Frank is not just Reef without the loco streak - he's different - not so readable now here in coalfields which were about to explode Frank: "They're fixing to do away with all them tents." "Creeping along, her nun's shadow in the search light beams..." April 19 - Jesse has gone with Balkan kids - "It's their Easter or somethin." The Balkan kids" would likely be Eastern Orthodox religion and their Easter falls at some point between early April to early May, following the cycle of the moon. After several centuries of disagreement, all churches accepted the computation of the Alexandrian Church (now the Coptic Church) that Easter is the first S From ottosell at googlemail.com Tue Jul 8 05:51:11 2008 From: ottosell at googlemail.com (Otto) Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2008 12:51:11 +0200 Subject: NP Augustinus: "Bekenntnisse" Message-ID: Der Erfinder der Autobiografie Augustinus: "Bekenntnisse", Hrsg. Jörg Ulrich, Verlag der Weltreligionen 2007, 619 Seiten Der bedeutende Kirchenlehrer und Philosoph Augustinus von Hippo begründete an der Zeitenwende zwischen Antike und Mittelalter das literarische Genre der Autobiografie. In der Ich-Form zu sprechen, hatte er dem Juden Jesus von Nazareth abgeschaut. Seine "Bekenntnisse" zählen zu den klassischen Autobiografien der Weltliteratur. Sie entstanden um 400, als er Mitte 40 und Bischof von Hippo war. (...) Augustinus: Bekenntnisse hrsg. von Jörg Ulrich. Verlag der Weltreligionen 2007 619 Seiten, 30,00 € http://www.dradio.de/dkultur/sendungen/kritik/809730/ as mp3: http://ondemand-mp3.dradio.de/file/dradio/2008/07/02/drk_20080702_0933_7b60b06e.mp3 From against.the.dave at gmail.com Tue Jul 8 08:37:12 2008 From: against.the.dave at gmail.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2008 08:37:12 -0500 Subject: METROPOLIS Rebuilt In-Reply-To: <2A429C8B-92F3-4C8F-85C3-B8DA771021B6@yahoo.de> References: <2A429C8B-92F3-4C8F-85C3-B8DA771021B6@yahoo.de> Message-ID: On 7/8/08, Werner Presber wrote: > GreenCine Daily "Rediscovered" Metropolis > > http://daily.greencine.com/archives/006330.html >From a non-List friend: "Good lord! It's even longer?!" Now if only --> http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0018097/ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_After_Midnight_(film) From scuffling at gmail.com Tue Jul 8 09:24:08 2008 From: scuffling at gmail.com (Henry) Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2008 10:24:08 -0400 Subject: ATDTDA (36) Mother Jones In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <007d01c8e106$49ce2840$dd6a78c0$@com> I haven't read Mother Jones in years! Thanks for this! And still, to this day, the media-outlets are the same as the owners! Knowledge from reading is important, but please take what you learn and use it to help the people that have been frightened by McFox "News." HENRY MU Information, Media, and Technology Consultant http://my.barackobama.com/page/community/blog/henrymu From against.the.dave at gmail.com Tue Jul 8 09:55:17 2008 From: against.the.dave at gmail.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2008 09:55:17 -0500 Subject: Working At Cross Purposes? Message-ID: Thomas Pynchon's Crying of Lot 49 is an example of a novel that doesn't challenge the reader to interpret it, but does challenge the reader to complete it without succumbing to paranoid schizophrenic thought patterns. Pynchon's uses the text to trip up the reader's rhythm and confound perception. He does this specifically by placing complex sentence structures into longer passages filled with simply structured sentences. This builds a cadence that pulls the reader along, only to trick the mind into feeling it has lost its place when a sentence doesn't follow the same pattern. The eye automatically scans to the top of the paragraph and you wind up rereading portions of the text. This, perhaps more than anything else I've read, strikes me as the deliberate incorporation of play into a literary form.... http://blog.pjsattic.com/corvus/2008/07/working-at-cross-purposes/ From kelber at mindspring.com Tue Jul 8 10:08:32 2008 From: kelber at mindspring.com (kelber at mindspring.com) Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2008 11:08:32 -0400 (EDT) Subject: AtD - (36) pgs 1007 - 1012 Message-ID: <12800362.1215529713135.JavaMail.root@mswamui-cedar.atl.sa.earthlink.net> I attempted to send a link to the Woody Guthrie song, The Ludlow Massacre, but apparently the file was too large to make it through. It's worth looking it up on i-tunes. Laura -----Original Message----- >From: Bekah >Sent: Jul 8, 2008 2:33 AM >To: pynchon -l >Subject: AtD - (36) pgs 1007 - 1012 > >Starting at page 1007 - >This whole Ludlow section is written exactly like the history as it's >documented in several places on the net - a few mentioned below. All >that deliberate misery-making can get quite depressing. There is no >need here for anything other than a pretty straightforward account >(and inserting some characters) - the events speak for themselves. > > >Winter of 1913-1914 > Stray goes from Trinidad to Ludlow (about 12 miles southeast) where >the coal miners had been striking and living in a tent colony since >September. > >* > The tent colony was for those union members who were on strike and >therefore had been evicted from their company owned homes. These > >* >Guns lined up: (!) >http://courses.ed.asu.edu/margolis/life/homepage_files/image021a.gif > > >Ludlow Massacre: >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ludlow_Massacre >http://www.cobar.org/index.cfm/ID/581/dpwfp/Historical-Foreward-and- >Bibliography/ > >Excellent Photo Galleries -( scroll right) >http://www.du.edu/anthro/ludlow/cfphoto.html > > >Today Ludlow is a ghost town - >http://www.cultimedia.ch/ghosttowns/htme/ludlowco.htm >with a monument: >http://www.flickr.com/photos/surlymonkey/935096702/ > >* > >Photo of the "Death Car" >http://courses.ed.asu.edu/margolis/life/homepage_files/image010a.gif > >"They used an improvised armored car, mounted with a M1895 Colt- >Browning machine gun that the union called the "Death Special," to >patrol the camp's perimeters. The steel-covered car was built in the >CF&I plant in Pueblo from the chassis of a large touring sedan. >Because of frequent sniping on the tent colonies, miners dug >protective pits beneath the tents where they and their families could >seek shelter." > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ludlow_Massacre#The_mine_strike > >********************* > >page 108 >Jesse shows up via the Colorado and Southern railway >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:C%26S_RR_map.jpg >* > >Light as torture / darkness as compassion >"The Colorodo militia were in fact giving light a bad name. Military >wisdom had it that putting searchlights on the enemy allowed you to >see them, while blinding them to you, giving you an inestimable edge >both tactical and psychological. In the tents, darkness in that awful >winter was sought like warmth or quiet. It seemed like a form of >compassion. " > >Jesse goes out - comes back smug and the lights are out. > > >********************* >page 109 >It was a very bad winter - tents collapse from the snow, etc. >http://www.sangres.com/history/coalfieldwar01.htm >http://courses.ed.asu.edu/margolis/life/homepage_files/exp01.htm >(stick around there - the images change) > >* >Strike breakers coming in via cattle cars from Pennsylvania and >trains escorted from the Mexican border. >There were 24 languages spoken in the tent city. >http://www.cobar.org/index.cfm/ID/581/dpwfp/Historical-Foreward-and- >Bibliography/ >* >Moss Gatlin (Johann Most?) preaches forbearance and violence at the >same time >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johann_Most >* >The mood grows uglier, women are raped, kids are beaten, in Trinidad >the military attacked women marching in support of the strike, no one >killed (to this point) >see "The Autobiography of Mother Jones" - Part 3: >http://www.angelfire.com/nj3/RonMBaseman/mojones3.htm >* > >The 2 colt machine guns on armored "Death Car" >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M1895_Colt-Browning_machine_gun > > >Baldwin-Felts "detective" agency. >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baldwin-Felts > >"Baldwin-Felts had a reputation for aggressive strike breaking. >Agents shone searchlights on the tent villages at night and randomly >fired into the tents, occasionally killing and maiming people. They >used an improvised armored car, mounted with a M1895 Colt-Browning >machine gun that the union called the "Death Special," to patrol the >camp's perimeters. The steel-covered car was built in the CF&I plant >in Pueblo from the chassis of a large touring sedan. Because of >frequent sniping on the tent colonies, miners dug protective pits >beneath the tents where they and their families could seek shelter. " > >A different pov: http://www.baldwinfeltsdetectives.com/ (right - >just fyi) > >******* > >page 1010 >Guardsmen are bad news - blonde - shades of Nazi > >Jesse finds a level of evil never expected in adults until now. > >Not one but a whole fleet of Death Specials and the drivers fear >they will be the victims. > >Jessie denies association with Union group > >**** > >page 1011 >but Jessie also steals two 30 caliber machine gun rounds to prevent >them being shot > >Meanwhile, (and at this point it's April 19, 1914 or so - the day >prior to the massacre) >Frank Traverse is in Aguilar, between Walsenberg and Trinidad >at the 29 Luglio Saloon named for Anarchist Bresci assassinated King >Umberto of Italy >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaetano_Bresci > >He's checking out a gun - (imaginary? no) >Benet Mercier >http://tinyurl.com/63bttu >(follow links): http://forums.gunboards.com/archive/index.php? >t-20386.html > > >Empire Mine - dangerous >there was an explosion there killing 13 people in 1919 >NY Times 3 days after Ludlow Massacre: >http://tinyurl.com/4qvvb5 > > >Frank sees a woman who looks like Michelangelo's Pieta to others: >(in case you forgot) >http://www.saintpetersbasilica.org/Altars/Pieta/Pieta-ah06.jpg > >Stray - recognizes Frank and tells him the night's young >It's Stray - dressed as a "Sister of Charity" >http://jama.ama-assn.org/content/vol296/issue8/images/medium/ >jbk60126fa.jpg > >*************** > >Page 1012 > >Frank and Stray get reacquainted, there in the bar and find out if >each other is free, relationship wise - Ewball / Ren >Frank is not just Reef without the loco streak - he's different - not >so readable now here in coalfields which were about to explode > >Frank: "They're fixing to do away with all them tents." > >"Creeping along, her nun's shadow in the search light beams..." > > >April 19 - Jesse has gone with Balkan kids - "It's their Easter or >somethin." > The Balkan kids" would likely be Eastern Orthodox religion and >their Easter falls at some point between early April to early May, >following the cycle of the moon. After several centuries of >disagreement, all churches accepted the computation of the >Alexandrian Church (now the Coptic Church) that Easter is the first >Sunday after the first fourteenth day of the moon (the Paschal Full >Moon) that is on or after the ecclesiastical vernal equinox. > >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Easter > >*********************** > From against.the.dave at gmail.com Tue Jul 8 10:10:35 2008 From: against.the.dave at gmail.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2008 10:10:35 -0500 Subject: Video: World's First Computer Is Finally Built Message-ID: Video: World's First Computer Is Finally Built Charles Babbage's 1822 design for a mechanical "difference engine" was never actually constructed ... until now. http://www.livescience.com/php/video/player.php?aid=19205 From markekohut at yahoo.com Tue Jul 8 10:11:23 2008 From: markekohut at yahoo.com (Mark Kohut) Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2008 08:11:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Working At Cross Purposes? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <622438.44699.qm@web38407.mail.mud.yahoo.com> 'deliberative incorporation of play into the text" ??? I might have thought the comic scenes were more like "play"? --- On Tue, 7/8/08, Dave Monroe wrote: > From: Dave Monroe > Subject: Working At Cross Purposes? > To: "pynchon -l" > Date: Tuesday, July 8, 2008, 10:55 AM > Thomas Pynchon's Crying of Lot 49 is an example of a > novel that > doesn't challenge the reader to interpret it, but does > challenge the > reader to complete it without succumbing to paranoid > schizophrenic > thought patterns. Pynchon's uses the text to trip up > the reader's > rhythm and confound perception. He does this specifically > by placing > complex sentence structures into longer passages filled > with simply > structured sentences. This builds a cadence that pulls the > reader > along, only to trick the mind into feeling it has lost its > place when > a sentence doesn't follow the same pattern. The eye > automatically > scans to the top of the paragraph and you wind up rereading > portions > of the text. This, perhaps more than anything else I've > read, strikes > me as the deliberate incorporation of play into a literary > form.... > > http://blog.pjsattic.com/corvus/2008/07/working-at-cross-purposes/ From against.the.dave at gmail.com Tue Jul 8 10:39:58 2008 From: against.the.dave at gmail.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2008 10:39:58 -0500 Subject: Working At Cross Purposes? In-Reply-To: <622438.44699.qm@web38407.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <622438.44699.qm@web38407.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On 7/8/08, Mark Kohut wrote: > 'deliberative incorporation of play into the text" ??? > > I might have thought the comic scenes were more like "play"? http://www.hup.harvard.edu/catalog/ECOOPE.html http://www.hydra.umn.edu/derrida/sign-play.html From igrlivingston at gmail.com Tue Jul 8 11:48:40 2008 From: igrlivingston at gmail.com (Ian Livingston) Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2008 09:48:40 -0700 Subject: AtD - (36) pgs 1007 - 1012 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <95cde1ee0807080948y153772ale02527da309a3f0d@mail.gmail.com> There is still a difference between Orthodox and Catholic as regards the dates of both Christmas and of Easter. My brother is Orthodox and we never really know when to send Christmas gifts to the kids and then he starts lent about the time everyone else is getting ready for the Easter feast. On Mon, Jul 7, 2008 at 11:33 PM, Bekah wrote: > Starting at page 1007 - > This whole Ludlow section is written exactly like the history as it's > documented in several places on the net - a few mentioned below. All that > deliberate misery-making can get quite depressing. There is no need here > for anything other than a pretty straightforward account (and inserting some > characters) - the events speak for themselves. > > > Winter of 1913-1914 > Stray goes from Trinidad to Ludlow (about 12 miles southeast) where the > coal miners had been striking and living in a tent colony since September. > > * > The tent colony was for those union members who were on strike and > therefore had been evicted from their company owned homes. These > > * > Guns lined up: (!) > http://courses.ed.asu.edu/margolis/life/homepage_files/image021a.gif > > > Ludlow Massacre: > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ludlow_Massacre > http://www.cobar.org/index.cfm/ID/581/dpwfp/Historical-Foreward-and- > Bibliography/ > > Excellent Photo Galleries -( scroll right) > http://www.du.edu/anthro/ludlow/cfphoto.html > > > Today Ludlow is a ghost town - > http://www.cultimedia.ch/ghosttowns/htme/ludlowco.htm > with a monument: > http://www.flickr.com/photos/surlymonkey/935096702/ > > * > > Photo of the "Death Car" > http://courses.ed.asu.edu/margolis/life/homepage_files/image010a.gif > > "They used an improvised armored car, mounted with a M1895 Colt-Browning > machine gun that the union called the "Death Special," to patrol the camp's > perimeters. The steel-covered car was built in the CF&I plant in Pueblo from > the chassis of a large touring sedan. Because of frequent sniping on the > tent colonies, miners dug protective pits beneath the tents where they and > their families could seek shelter." > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ludlow_Massacre#The_mine_strike > > ********************* > > page 108 > Jesse shows up via the Colorado and Southern railway > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:C%26S_RR_map.jpg > * > > Light as torture / darkness as compassion > "The Colorodo militia were in fact giving light a bad name. Military > wisdom had it that putting searchlights on the enemy allowed you to see > them, while blinding them to you, giving you an inestimable edge both > tactical and psychological. In the tents, darkness in that awful winter was > sought like warmth or quiet. It seemed like a form of compassion. " > > Jesse goes out - comes back smug and the lights are out. > > > ********************* > page 109 > It was a very bad winter - tents collapse from the snow, etc. > http://www.sangres.com/history/coalfieldwar01.htm > http://courses.ed.asu.edu/margolis/life/homepage_files/exp01.htm > (stick around there - the images change) > > * > Strike breakers coming in via cattle cars from Pennsylvania and trains > escorted from the Mexican border. > There were 24 languages spoken in the tent city. > http://www.cobar.org/index.cfm/ID/581/dpwfp/Historical-Foreward-and- > Bibliography/ > * > Moss Gatlin (Johann Most?) preaches forbearance and violence at the same > time > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johann_Most > * > The mood grows uglier, women are raped, kids are beaten, in Trinidad the > military attacked women marching in support of the strike, no one killed (to > this point) > see "The Autobiography of Mother Jones" - Part 3: > http://www.angelfire.com/nj3/RonMBaseman/mojones3.htm > * > > The 2 colt machine guns on armored "Death Car" > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M1895_Colt-Browning_machine_gun > > > Baldwin-Felts "detective" agency. > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baldwin-Felts > > "Baldwin-Felts had a reputation for aggressive strike breaking. Agents > shone searchlights on the tent villages at night and randomly fired into the > tents, occasionally killing and maiming people. They used an improvised > armored car, mounted with a M1895 Colt-Browning machine gun that the union > called the "Death Special," to patrol the camp's perimeters. The > steel-covered car was built in the CF&I plant in Pueblo from the chassis of > a large touring sedan. Because of frequent sniping on the tent colonies, > miners dug protective pits beneath the tents where they and their families > could seek shelter. " > > A different pov: http://www.baldwinfeltsdetectives.com/ (right - just > fyi) > > ******* > > page 1010 > Guardsmen are bad news - blonde - shades of Nazi > > Jesse finds a level of evil never expected in adults until now. > > Not one but a whole fleet of Death Specials and the drivers fear they will > be the victims. > > Jessie denies association with Union group > > **** > > page 1011 > but Jessie also steals two 30 caliber machine gun rounds to prevent them > being shot > > Meanwhile, (and at this point it's April 19, 1914 or so - the day prior > to the massacre) > Frank Traverse is in Aguilar, between Walsenberg and Trinidad > at the 29 Luglio Saloon named for Anarchist Bresci assassinated King > Umberto of Italy > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaetano_Bresci > > He's checking out a gun - (imaginary? no) > Benet Mercier > http://tinyurl.com/63bttu > (follow links): http://forums.gunboards.com/archive/index.php > ?t-20386.html > > > Empire Mine - dangerous > there was an explosion there killing 13 people in 1919 > NY Times 3 days after Ludlow Massacre: > http://tinyurl.com/4qvvb5 > > > Frank sees a woman who looks like Michelangelo's Pieta to others: (in case > you forgot) > http://www.saintpetersbasilica.org/Altars/Pieta/Pieta-ah06.jpg > > Stray - recognizes Frank and tells him the night's young > It's Stray - dressed as a "Sister of Charity" > http://jama.ama-assn.org/content/vol296/issue8/images/medium/ > jbk60126fa.jpg > > *************** > > Page 1012 > > Frank and Stray get reacquainted, there in the bar and find out if each > other is free, relationship wise - Ewball / Ren > Frank is not just Reef without the loco streak - he's different - not so > readable now here in coalfields which were about to explode > > Frank: "They're fixing to do away with all them tents." > > "Creeping along, her nun's shadow in the search light beams..." > > > April 19 - Jesse has gone with Balkan kids - "It's their Easter or > somethin." > The Balkan kids" would likely be Eastern Orthodox religion and their > Easter falls at some point between early April to early May, following the > cycle of the moon. After several centuries of disagreement, all churches > accepted the computation of the Alexandrian Church (now the Coptic Church) > that Easter is the first Sunday after the first fourteenth day of the moon > (the Paschal Full Moon) that is on or after the ecclesiastical vernal > equinox. > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Easter > > *********************** > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From joeallonby at gmail.com Tue Jul 8 11:55:10 2008 From: joeallonby at gmail.com (Joe Allonby) Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2008 12:55:10 -0400 Subject: ATDTDA (36) Mother Jones In-Reply-To: <007d01c8e106$49ce2840$dd6a78c0$@com> References: <007d01c8e106$49ce2840$dd6a78c0$@com> Message-ID: Related anecdote: One night I was involved in a "sesiun" with a group of musicians from Belfast. Mostly new arrivals, mostly illegal, mostly of rebel leanings. When it came to the turn of one man he stood up and sang "The Ludlow Miner Massacre" with great force and conviction. Apparently it was considered an anthem for Catholics in Belfast. On Tue, Jul 8, 2008 at 10:24 AM, Henry wrote: > I haven't read Mother Jones in years! Thanks for this! And still, to this > day, the media-outlets are the same as the owners! > > Knowledge from reading is important, but please take what you learn and use > it to help the people that have been frightened by McFox "News." > > > HENRY MU > Information, Media, and Technology Consultant > > http://my.barackobama.com/page/community/blog/henrymu > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From against.the.dave at gmail.com Tue Jul 8 12:30:49 2008 From: against.the.dave at gmail.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2008 12:30:49 -0500 Subject: Dying to get cheaper as Malta ends hearse cartel Message-ID: Dying to get cheaper as Malta ends hearse cartel Tue Jul 8, 2008 10:45am EDT VALLETTA (Reuters) - The cost of living is rising in Malta, but the cost of dying may be about to drop. The Maltese Transport Ministry announced on Monday that the government had decided to liberalize the granting of licenses for hearses. No licenses have been issued for 36 years, leaving only 11 owners of hearses and, in the ministry's words, "creating the conditions for a cartel." "The people have been denied freedom of choice and the benefits of competition" the ministry said. http://www.reuters.com/article/oddlyEnoughNews/idUSL0719616320080708 From bekker2 at mac.com Tue Jul 8 13:09:25 2008 From: bekker2 at mac.com (Bekah) Date: Tue, 08 Jul 2008 11:09:25 -0700 Subject: AtD - (36) pgs 1007 - 1012 In-Reply-To: <12800362.1215529713135.JavaMail.root@mswamui-cedar.atl.sa.earthlink.net> References: <12800362.1215529713135.JavaMail.root@mswamui-cedar.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <6A782540-535E-4F6F-8FD2-6E88B6EFE564@mac.com> And this one is great, Zinn speaking over film clip with Guthrie's Ludlow Massacre also in the background: http://webmunism.com/vids/of/labor+historians (scroll down on the left to "Howard Zinn and the Ludlow Massacre") You can also hear samples of tunes from Guthrie's "Hard Travelin': The Asch Recordings, Vol. 3" at: http://www.smithsonianglobalsound.org/trackdetail.aspx?itemid=35036 Awesome stuff. Listen to some of the other clips, too - Bekah On Jul 8, 2008, at 8:08 AM, kelber at mindspring.com wrote: > I attempted to send a link to the Woody Guthrie song, The Ludlow > Massacre, but apparently the file was too large to make it > through. It's worth looking it up on i-tunes. > > Laura > > -----Original Message----- >> From: Bekah >> Sent: Jul 8, 2008 2:33 AM >> To: pynchon -l >> Subject: AtD - (36) pgs 1007 - 1012 >> >> Starting at page 1007 - >> This whole Ludlow section is written exactly like the history as it's >> documented in several places on the net - a few mentioned below. All >> that deliberate misery-making can get quite depressing. There is no >> need here for anything other than a pretty straightforward account >> (and inserting some characters) - the events speak for themselves. >> >> >> Winter of 1913-1914 >> Stray goes from Trinidad to Ludlow (about 12 miles southeast) where >> the coal miners had been striking and living in a tent colony since >> September. >> >> * >> The tent colony was for those union members who were on strike and >> therefore had been evicted from their company owned homes. These >> >> * >> Guns lined up: (!) >> http://courses.ed.asu.edu/margolis/life/homepage_files/image021a.gif >> >> >> Ludlow Massacre: >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ludlow_Massacre >> http://www.cobar.org/index.cfm/ID/581/dpwfp/Historical-Foreward-and- >> Bibliography/ >> >> Excellent Photo Galleries -( scroll right) >> http://www.du.edu/anthro/ludlow/cfphoto.html >> >> >> Today Ludlow is a ghost town - >> http://www.cultimedia.ch/ghosttowns/htme/ludlowco.htm >> with a monument: >> http://www.flickr.com/photos/surlymonkey/935096702/ >> >> * >> >> Photo of the "Death Car" >> http://courses.ed.asu.edu/margolis/life/homepage_files/image010a.gif >> >> "They used an improvised armored car, mounted with a M1895 Colt- >> Browning machine gun that the union called the "Death Special," to >> patrol the camp's perimeters. The steel-covered car was built in the >> CF&I plant in Pueblo from the chassis of a large touring sedan. >> Because of frequent sniping on the tent colonies, miners dug >> protective pits beneath the tents where they and their families could >> seek shelter." >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ludlow_Massacre#The_mine_strike >> >> ********************* >> >> page 108 >> Jesse shows up via the Colorado and Southern railway >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:C%26S_RR_map.jpg >> * >> >> Light as torture / darkness as compassion >> "The Colorodo militia were in fact giving light a bad name. Military >> wisdom had it that putting searchlights on the enemy allowed you to >> see them, while blinding them to you, giving you an inestimable edge >> both tactical and psychological. In the tents, darkness in that awful >> winter was sought like warmth or quiet. It seemed like a form of >> compassion. " >> >> Jesse goes out - comes back smug and the lights are out. >> >> >> ********************* >> page 109 >> It was a very bad winter - tents collapse from the snow, etc. >> http://www.sangres.com/history/coalfieldwar01.htm >> http://courses.ed.asu.edu/margolis/life/homepage_files/exp01.htm >> (stick around there - the images change) >> >> * >> Strike breakers coming in via cattle cars from Pennsylvania and >> trains escorted from the Mexican border. >> There were 24 languages spoken in the tent city. >> http://www.cobar.org/index.cfm/ID/581/dpwfp/Historical-Foreward-and- >> Bibliography/ >> * >> Moss Gatlin (Johann Most?) preaches forbearance and violence at the >> same time >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johann_Most >> * >> The mood grows uglier, women are raped, kids are beaten, in Trinidad >> the military attacked women marching in support of the strike, no one >> killed (to this point) >> see "The Autobiography of Mother Jones" - Part 3: >> http://www.angelfire.com/nj3/RonMBaseman/mojones3.htm >> * >> >> The 2 colt machine guns on armored "Death Car" >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M1895_Colt-Browning_machine_gun >> >> >> Baldwin-Felts "detective" agency. >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baldwin-Felts >> >> "Baldwin-Felts had a reputation for aggressive strike breaking. >> Agents shone searchlights on the tent villages at night and randomly >> fired into the tents, occasionally killing and maiming people. They >> used an improvised armored car, mounted with a M1895 Colt-Browning >> machine gun that the union called the "Death Special," to patrol the >> camp's perimeters. The steel-covered car was built in the CF&I plant >> in Pueblo from the chassis of a large touring sedan. Because of >> frequent sniping on the tent colonies, miners dug protective pits >> beneath the tents where they and their families could seek shelter. " >> >> A different pov: http://www.baldwinfeltsdetectives.com/ (right - >> just fyi) >> >> ******* >> >> page 1010 >> Guardsmen are bad news - blonde - shades of Nazi >> >> Jesse finds a level of evil never expected in adults until now. >> >> Not one but a whole fleet of Death Specials and the drivers fear >> they will be the victims. >> >> Jessie denies association with Union group >> >> **** >> >> page 1011 >> but Jessie also steals two 30 caliber machine gun rounds to prevent >> them being shot >> >> Meanwhile, (and at this point it's April 19, 1914 or so - the day >> prior to the massacre) >> Frank Traverse is in Aguilar, between Walsenberg and Trinidad >> at the 29 Luglio Saloon named for Anarchist Bresci assassinated King >> Umberto of Italy >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaetano_Bresci >> >> He's checking out a gun - (imaginary? no) >> Benet Mercier >> http://tinyurl.com/63bttu >> (follow links): http://forums.gunboards.com/archive/index.php? >> t-20386.html >> >> >> Empire Mine - dangerous >> there was an explosion there killing 13 people in 1919 >> NY Times 3 days after Ludlow Massacre: >> http://tinyurl.com/4qvvb5 >> >> >> Frank sees a woman who looks like Michelangelo's Pieta to others: >> (in case you forgot) >> http://www.saintpetersbasilica.org/Altars/Pieta/Pieta-ah06.jpg >> >> Stray - recognizes Frank and tells him the night's young >> It's Stray - dressed as a "Sister of Charity" >> http://jama.ama-assn.org/content/vol296/issue8/images/medium/ >> jbk60126fa.jpg >> >> *************** >> >> Page 1012 >> >> Frank and Stray get reacquainted, there in the bar and find out if >> each other is free, relationship wise - Ewball / Ren >> Frank is not just Reef without the loco streak - he's different - not >> so readable now here in coalfields which were about to explode >> >> Frank: "They're fixing to do away with all them tents." >> >> "Creeping along, her nun's shadow in the search light beams..." >> >> >> April 19 - Jesse has gone with Balkan kids - "It's their Easter or >> somethin." >> The Balkan kids" would likely be Eastern Orthodox religion and >> their Easter falls at some point between early April to early May, >> following the cycle of the moon. After several centuries of >> disagreement, all churches accepted the computation of the >> Alexandrian Church (now the Coptic Church) that Easter is the first >> Sunday after the first fourteenth day of the moon (the Paschal Full >> Moon) that is on or after the ecclesiastical vernal equinox. >> >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Easter >> >> *********************** >> > From against.the.dave at gmail.com Tue Jul 8 13:22:16 2008 From: against.the.dave at gmail.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2008 13:22:16 -0500 Subject: Drew Heitzler Message-ID: Dallas Report: A Contemporary Art Destination TEXAS SEEN John Zotos Hidden away in the flatlands of north Texas lies the city of Dallas, a large metropolis noteworthy now more than ever for a growing museum network with large holdings of contemporary art in the downtown arts district; it's a hub flanked on various sides with young commercial gallery spaces. Fueled by a national interest in contemporary art, and no shortage of money, the Dallas arts district thrives with architectural spaces dedicated to art and performance designed by the likes of Renzo Piano, Rem Koolhaas, and Norman Foster and Partners. This energy has led to a concentration of new gallery spaces in a former warehouse district on one side of town, complemented by the same concentration of spaces in the design district on the other end. Together these spaces exhibit local and international talent with the goal of establishing the city as an art center. On the east side of downtown, in a warehouse district, Angstrom Projects strives to bring ambitious art to its walls. Currently on view for the first time in Texas is the video, photo collage, and installation art of Drew Heitzler, a participant in the 2008 Whitney Biennial. Based in Los Angeles, Heitzler draws upon the foundational position this cinema city occupies in the American psyche in order to subvert assumptions about cultural hegemony, while questioning the myths of progress that typically accompany the representation of Hollywood in general, and the U.S. in particular. For example, Heitzler seizes upon the figure of Thomas Pynchon, the rarely photographed fiction writer whose work examines conspiracy and paranoia. The installation includes a copy of a photograph of a young Pynchon as well as a suite of photo-collage laser prints that supplant "sunny California" with the grim consequences of the regions' geological-based petrol industry.... http://www.nyartsmagazine.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=259289&Itemid=752 Drew Heitzler http://www.angstromgallery.com/JSPWiki/Wiki.jsp?page=DrewHeitzler From kelber at mindspring.com Tue Jul 8 14:26:39 2008 From: kelber at mindspring.com (kelber at mindspring.com) Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2008 15:26:39 -0400 (EDT) Subject: AtD - (36) pgs 1007 - 1012 Message-ID: <14049307.1215545200490.JavaMail.root@mswamui-cedar.atl.sa.earthlink.net> here are the lyrics to the Guthrie song: (from the Guthrie website: http://www.woodyguthrie.org/Lyrics/Ludlow_Massacre.htm) Ludlow Massacre It was early springtime when the strike was on, They drove us miners out of doors, Out from the houses that the Company owned, We moved into tents up at old Ludlow. I was worried bad about my children, Soldiers guarding the railroad bridge, Every once in a while a bullet would fly, Kick up gravel under my feet. We were so afraid you would kill our children, We dug us a cave that was seven foot deep, Carried our young ones and pregnant women Down inside the cave to sleep. That very night your soldiers waited, Until all us miners were asleep, You snuck around our little tent town, Soaked our tents with your kerosene. You struck a match and in the blaze that started, You pulled the triggers of your gatling guns, I made a run for the children but the fire wall stopped me. Thirteen children died from your guns. I carried my blanket to a wire fence corner, Watched the fire till the blaze died down, I helped some people drag their belongings, While your bullets killed us all around. I never will forget the look on the faces Of the men and women that awful day, When we stood around to preach their funerals, And lay the corpses of the dead away. We told the Colorado Governor to call the President, Tell him to call off his National Guard, But the National Guard belonged to the Governor, So he didn't try so very hard. Our women from Trinidad they hauled some potatoes, Up to Walsenburg in a little cart, They sold their potatoes and brought some guns back, And they put a gun in every hand. The state soldiers jumped us in a wire fence corners, They did not know we had these guns, And the Red-neck Miners mowed down these troopers, You should have seen those poor boys run. We took some cement and walled that cave up, Where you killed these thirteen children inside, I said, "God bless the Mine Workers' Union," And then I hung my head and cried. -----Original Message----- >From: Bekah >Sent: Jul 8, 2008 2:09 PM >To: pynchon -l >Subject: Re: AtD - (36) pgs 1007 - 1012 > >And this one is great, Zinn speaking over film clip with Guthrie's >Ludlow Massacre also in the background: >http://webmunism.com/vids/of/labor+historians >(scroll down on the left to "Howard Zinn and the Ludlow Massacre") > >You can also hear samples of tunes from Guthrie's "Hard Travelin': >The Asch Recordings, Vol. 3" at: >http://www.smithsonianglobalsound.org/trackdetail.aspx?itemid=35036 > >Awesome stuff. Listen to some of the other clips, too - > >Bekah > > >On Jul 8, 2008, at 8:08 AM, kelber at mindspring.com wrote: > >> I attempted to send a link to the Woody Guthrie song, The Ludlow >> Massacre, but apparently the file was too large to make it >> through. It's worth looking it up on i-tunes. >> >> Laura >> >> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Bekah >>> Sent: Jul 8, 2008 2:33 AM >>> To: pynchon -l >>> Subject: AtD - (36) pgs 1007 - 1012 >>> >>> Starting at page 1007 - >>> This whole Ludlow section is written exactly like the history as it's >>> documented in several places on the net - a few mentioned below. All >>> that deliberate misery-making can get quite depressing. There is no >>> need here for anything other than a pretty straightforward account >>> (and inserting some characters) - the events speak for themselves. >>> >>> >>> Winter of 1913-1914 >>> Stray goes from Trinidad to Ludlow (about 12 miles southeast) where >>> the coal miners had been striking and living in a tent colony since >>> September. >>> >>> * >>> The tent colony was for those union members who were on strike and >>> therefore had been evicted from their company owned homes. These >>> >>> * >>> Guns lined up: (!) >>> http://courses.ed.asu.edu/margolis/life/homepage_files/image021a.gif >>> >>> >>> Ludlow Massacre: >>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ludlow_Massacre >>> http://www.cobar.org/index.cfm/ID/581/dpwfp/Historical-Foreward-and- >>> Bibliography/ >>> >>> Excellent Photo Galleries -( scroll right) >>> http://www.du.edu/anthro/ludlow/cfphoto.html >>> >>> >>> Today Ludlow is a ghost town - >>> http://www.cultimedia.ch/ghosttowns/htme/ludlowco.htm >>> with a monument: >>> http://www.flickr.com/photos/surlymonkey/935096702/ >>> >>> * >>> >>> Photo of the "Death Car" >>> http://courses.ed.asu.edu/margolis/life/homepage_files/image010a.gif >>> >>> "They used an improvised armored car, mounted with a M1895 Colt- >>> Browning machine gun that the union called the "Death Special," to >>> patrol the camp's perimeters. The steel-covered car was built in the >>> CF&I plant in Pueblo from the chassis of a large touring sedan. >>> Because of frequent sniping on the tent colonies, miners dug >>> protective pits beneath the tents where they and their families could >>> seek shelter." >>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ludlow_Massacre#The_mine_strike >>> >>> ********************* >>> >>> page 108 >>> Jesse shows up via the Colorado and Southern railway >>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:C%26S_RR_map.jpg >>> * >>> >>> Light as torture / darkness as compassion >>> "The Colorodo militia were in fact giving light a bad name. Military >>> wisdom had it that putting searchlights on the enemy allowed you to >>> see them, while blinding them to you, giving you an inestimable edge >>> both tactical and psychological. In the tents, darkness in that awful >>> winter was sought like warmth or quiet. It seemed like a form of >>> compassion. " >>> >>> Jesse goes out - comes back smug and the lights are out. >>> >>> >>> ********************* >>> page 109 >>> It was a very bad winter - tents collapse from the snow, etc. >>> http://www.sangres.com/history/coalfieldwar01.htm >>> http://courses.ed.asu.edu/margolis/life/homepage_files/exp01.htm >>> (stick around there - the images change) >>> >>> * >>> Strike breakers coming in via cattle cars from Pennsylvania and >>> trains escorted from the Mexican border. >>> There were 24 languages spoken in the tent city. >>> http://www.cobar.org/index.cfm/ID/581/dpwfp/Historical-Foreward-and- >>> Bibliography/ >>> * >>> Moss Gatlin (Johann Most?) preaches forbearance and violence at the >>> same time >>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johann_Most >>> * >>> The mood grows uglier, women are raped, kids are beaten, in Trinidad >>> the military attacked women marching in support of the strike, no one >>> killed (to this point) >>> see "The Autobiography of Mother Jones" - Part 3: >>> http://www.angelfire.com/nj3/RonMBaseman/mojones3.htm >>> * >>> >>> The 2 colt machine guns on armored "Death Car" >>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M1895_Colt-Browning_machine_gun >>> >>> >>> Baldwin-Felts "detective" agency. >>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baldwin-Felts >>> >>> "Baldwin-Felts had a reputation for aggressive strike breaking. >>> Agents shone searchlights on the tent villages at night and randomly >>> fired into the tents, occasionally killing and maiming people. They >>> used an improvised armored car, mounted with a M1895 Colt-Browning >>> machine gun that the union called the "Death Special," to patrol the >>> camp's perimeters. The steel-covered car was built in the CF&I plant >>> in Pueblo from the chassis of a large touring sedan. Because of >>> frequent sniping on the tent colonies, miners dug protective pits >>> beneath the tents where they and their families could seek shelter. " >>> >>> A different pov: http://www.baldwinfeltsdetectives.com/ (right - >>> just fyi) >>> >>> ******* >>> >>> page 1010 >>> Guardsmen are bad news - blonde - shades of Nazi >>> >>> Jesse finds a level of evil never expected in adults until now. >>> >>> Not one but a whole fleet of Death Specials and the drivers fear >>> they will be the victims. >>> >>> Jessie denies association with Union group >>> >>> **** >>> >>> page 1011 >>> but Jessie also steals two 30 caliber machine gun rounds to prevent >>> them being shot >>> >>> Meanwhile, (and at this point it's April 19, 1914 or so - the day >>> prior to the massacre) >>> Frank Traverse is in Aguilar, between Walsenberg and Trinidad >>> at the 29 Luglio Saloon named for Anarchist Bresci assassinated King >>> Umberto of Italy >>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaetano_Bresci >>> >>> He's checking out a gun - (imaginary? no) >>> Benet Mercier >>> http://tinyurl.com/63bttu >>> (follow links): http://forums.gunboards.com/archive/index.php? >>> t-20386.html >>> >>> >>> Empire Mine - dangerous >>> there was an explosion there killing 13 people in 1919 >>> NY Times 3 days after Ludlow Massacre: >>> http://tinyurl.com/4qvvb5 >>> >>> >>> Frank sees a woman who looks like Michelangelo's Pieta to others: >>> (in case you forgot) >>> http://www.saintpetersbasilica.org/Altars/Pieta/Pieta-ah06.jpg >>> >>> Stray - recognizes Frank and tells him the night's young >>> It's Stray - dressed as a "Sister of Charity" >>> http://jama.ama-assn.org/content/vol296/issue8/images/medium/ >>> jbk60126fa.jpg >>> >>> *************** >>> >>> Page 1012 >>> >>> Frank and Stray get reacquainted, there in the bar and find out if >>> each other is free, relationship wise - Ewball / Ren >>> Frank is not just Reef without the loco streak - he's different - not >>> so readable now here in coalfields which were about to explode >>> >>> Frank: "They're fixing to do away with all them tents." >>> >>> "Creeping along, her nun's shadow in the search light beams..." >>> >>> >>> April 19 - Jesse has gone with Balkan kids - "It's their Easter or >>> somethin." >>> The Balkan kids" would likely be Eastern Orthodox religion and >>> their Easter falls at some point between early April to early May, >>> following the cycle of the moon. After several centuries of >>> disagreement, all churches accepted the computation of the >>> Alexandrian Church (now the Coptic Church) that Easter is the first >>> Sunday after the first fourteenth day of the moon (the Paschal Full >>> Moon) that is on or after the ecclesiastical vernal equinox. >>> >>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Easter >>> >>> *********************** >>> >> > From pgdf at cox.net Tue Jul 8 15:58:49 2008 From: pgdf at cox.net (Paul Di Filippo) Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2008 16:58:49 -0400 Subject: FYI: my new blog Message-ID: <7907B9CB-8189-42A3-9B40-5508376BD5DD@cox.net> PRESS RELEASE July 9, 2008 Welcome, friends, to an exciting new world of weird! In fact, many worlds—and so big, we could only call it— WEIRD UNIVERSE. WEIRD UNIVERSE is the new superblog that brings together three well- known creators and experts in all things weird. Alex Boese runs THE MUSEUM OF HOAXES, a well-known enterprise devoted to debunking in amusing fashion the more outrageous claims foisted on a credulous public. Paul Di Filippo has been paid to put weird ideas into fictional form for over thirty years, in his career as a noted science fiction writer, and has recently begun blogging on many curious topics with his three fellow writers at The Inferior 4+1. Chuck Shepherd is the purveyor of NEWS OF THE WEIRD, the syndicated column which for decades has set the gold-standard for reporting on oddities and the bizarre. Now these three staunch and intrepid correspondents—under a beautiful new banner by legendary underground cartoonist Rick Altergott—are pooling their expertise to bring you the most wide-ranging daily collection of weird reading material anyone could ask for. WEIRD UNIVERSE will feature Chuck Shepherd’s daily feed on the most oddball news items of recent vintage. Regular posts such as “Follies of the Mad Men”—a history of Madison Avenue’s more dubious achievements—will alternate with lists, historical oddities, commentary and speculation. Together, the mix will cover every aspect of a human and natural cosmos that is not only “stranger than we imagine, but stranger than we can imagine.” We believe in the power of the weird. To entertain, to elucidate, to edify. To humble, to horrify, to honor. To shock, to surprise, to scandalize. Most vitally, we believe in the power of the weird as the final frontier of gloriously untameable human nature. In a world that grows increasingly homogenous, regimented, authoritarian, timid and fearful, the weird stands as humanity’s last best hope for spontaneity, ingenuity, bravery, goofiness, laughter, astonishment, and crazy wisdom. We believe in the power of the weird. Visit WEIRD UNIVERSE, and you will too! For more information, contact any or all of the participants: Alex Boese Paul Di Filippo Chuck Shepherd LIST OF LINKS SITES http://weirduniverse.net/ http://museumofhoaxes.com/ http://community.livejournal.com/theinferior4/ http://www.newsoftheweird.com/ http://www.rickaltergott.com/ EMAIL ADDRESSES alex at museumofhoaxes.com pgdf at cox.net WeirdNews at earthlink.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From scuffling at gmail.com Tue Jul 8 16:47:57 2008 From: scuffling at gmail.com (Henry) Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2008 17:47:57 -0400 Subject: my new blog In-Reply-To: <7907B9CB-8189-42A3-9B40-5508376BD5DD@cox.net> References: <7907B9CB-8189-42A3-9B40-5508376BD5DD@cox.net> Message-ID: <000801c8e144$49f2be10$ddd83a30$@com> Crackers! Great stuff, Paul; a-and the next time that I'm near San Diego, I'm going to the Museum of Hoaxes! Really! Henry Mu Information, Media, and Technology Consultant http://my.barackobama.com/page/community/blog/henrymu ------------------------ From: Paul Di Filippo To: fictionmags at yahoogroups.com Cc: pynchon-l at waste.org PRESS RELEASE   July 9, 2008   Welcome, friends, to an exciting new world of weird!   In fact, many worlds—and so big, we could only call it—   WEIRD UNIVERSE.   WEIRD UNIVERSE is the new superblog that brings together three well-known creators and experts in all things weird.   Alex Boese runs THE MUSEUM OF HOAXES, a well-known enterprise devoted to debunking in amusing fashion the more outrageous claims foisted on a credulous public.   Paul Di Filippo has been paid to put weird ideas into fictional form for over thirty years, in his career as a noted science fiction writer, and has recently begun blogging on many curious topics with his three fellow writers at The Inferior 4+1.   Chuck Shepherd is the purveyor of NEWS OF THE WEIRD, the syndicated column which for decades has set the gold-standard for reporting on oddities and the bizarre.   Now these three staunch and intrepid correspondents—under a beautiful new banner by legendary underground cartoonist Rick Altergott—are pooling their expertise to bring you the most wide-ranging daily collection of weird reading material anyone could ask for.   WEIRD UNIVERSE will feature Chuck Shepherd’s daily feed on the most oddball news items of recent vintage. Regular posts such as “Follies of the Mad Men”—a history of Madison Avenue’s more dubious achievements—will alternate with lists, historical oddities, commentary and speculation. Together, the mix will cover every aspect of a human and natural cosmos that is not only “stranger than we imagine, but stranger than we can imagine.”   We believe in the power of the weird.   To entertain, to elucidate, to edify. To humble, to horrify, to honor. To shock, to surprise, to scandalize.   Most vitally, we believe in the power of the weird as the final frontier of gloriously untameable human nature. In a world that grows increasingly homogenous, regimented, authoritarian, timid and fearful, the weird stands as humanity’s last best hope for spontaneity, ingenuity, bravery, goofiness, laughter, astonishment, and crazy wisdom.   We believe in the power of the weird.   Visit WEIRD UNIVERSE, and you will too!   For more information, contact any or all of the participants:   Alex Boese Paul Di Filippo Chuck Shepherd   LIST OF LINKS   SITES http://weirduniverse.net/ http://museumofhoaxes.com/ http://community.livejournal.com/theinferior4/ http://www.newsoftheweird.com/ http://www.rickaltergott.com/   EMAIL ADDRESSES alex at museumofhoaxes.com pgdf at cox.net WeirdNews at earthlink.net From robert_mahnke at earthlink.net Tue Jul 8 16:54:05 2008 From: robert_mahnke at earthlink.net (Robert Mahnke) Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2008 17:54:05 -0400 (GMT-04:00) Subject: FYI: my new blog Message-ID: <7353227.1215554046152.JavaMail.root@elwamui-little.atl.sa.earthlink.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From scuffling at gmail.com Tue Jul 8 17:40:01 2008 From: scuffling at gmail.com (Henry) Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2008 18:40:01 -0400 Subject: FYI: my new blog In-Reply-To: <7353227.1215554046152.JavaMail.root@elwamui-little.atl.sa.earthlink.net> References: <7353227.1215554046152.JavaMail.root@elwamui-little.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <000c01c8e14b$8f6d7050$ae4850f0$@com> Hey, hey! Yes, siree... Dig his crazy scene! Henry Mu Information, Media, and Technology Consultant http://my.barackobama.com/page/community/blog/henrymu -----Original Message----- From: Robert Mahnke Paul D.'s got a brand new blog? From isread at btinternet.com Wed Jul 9 00:01:59 2008 From: isread at btinternet.com (Paul Nightingale) Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2008 06:01:59 +0100 Subject: Atdtda28: Entertaining possibilities, 780-782 Message-ID: <000301c8e180$eb3c9a20$c1b5ce60$@com> The Event and the date are finally linked explicitly (781), although discussion cannot adequately represent what happened. As the issue is debated, with exchanges bordering on the acrimonious, consensus among the crew remains elusive: cf. the apparent unanimity of "eyewitnesses living below". This section continues the introduction to the Russian crew, with two points being emphasised: the Chum-like bickering and the size of the crew, similarity and difference. There is a sharp contrast drawn between those named and those anonymous others who "[fall] into a holiday routine". As the officers obsess in the wardroom, the crew is freed from direct supervision. In the midst of the section Padzhitnoff's pov is prioritised; and his silent musing includes the possibility that they have "all developed a collective amnesia about" the Event. It is in this passage, amid the speculation, a lot of which occurs in unattributed dialogue, that Padzhitnoff links Event and date: if it cannot be explained it can at least be identified and logged. The chapter's opening one-line section (779) does not make it clear if narration is 'current' or retrospective, ie 'present tense' or 'past tense'; but succeeding sections offer a non-comprehending aftermath and track narration's failure to 'return' to the Event. Hence Padzhitnoff's "collective amnesia", the failure to know if this is even something they should recall (even if "[t]he possibility had to be entertained ..." etc, 781). Previously, certainty was tied to Heaven's mandate (779); here, more and more is uncertain, not least Padzhitnoff's knowledge of his own crew (781). If nothing is certain, that must include his own recollection of what the Bol'shaia Ingra has been involved in. However, this introspective account, by acknowledging the possibility of repression, does bring its author into the Event; other officers attempt to remain objectively aloof, the exchange of insults ("Ouspenkian!"--"Bolshevik!") a denunciation of each other's partiality. At the same time Padzhitnoff is distanced from the crew as an observer of "this spectacle", one that emphasises the shift from the unknowable Event to the writing of it. From bekker2 at mac.com Wed Jul 9 00:55:13 2008 From: bekker2 at mac.com (Bekah) Date: Tue, 08 Jul 2008 22:55:13 -0700 Subject: test Message-ID: <2F5EEA3C-4147-48B5-A49B-2F5B411DCC70@mac.com> test - mail not turning up From bekker2 at mac.com Wed Jul 9 01:05:35 2008 From: bekker2 at mac.com (Bekah) Date: Tue, 08 Jul 2008 23:05:35 -0700 Subject: ATDTDA: (36) pages 1013-1017 Message-ID: <1855465D-ECBA-4630-B298-0FAC6017879D@mac.com> I'm not getting through? Trying again. This is the rest of that section through the end of Ludlow. The April 20th, 1914 and fighting in the Ludlow tent camp breaks out at about 10 am. (Song lyrics at the end of this.) The personal account of Victor Bazanele, an 84 year old (in 1976) miner from Austria (from an interview) with quite a few photos - : http://courses.ed.asu.edu/margolis/life/homepageexp.htm Page 1013 Frank sees a face from past - narrow hat, high forehead mouth in a slit - a lizard's face - not a nickle's worth of mercy (his photo does look like that): It's probably K.J. Linderfelt - Lieutenant in National Guard http://courses.ed.asu.edu/margolis/life/homepage_files/image015a.gif Jesse comes in with a Winchester repeater- he tried to cut RR lines but ran out of bullets Introductions of Frank to Jesse (are these names redolent or maybe even allusionary somehow of the wild west world of Frank and Jesse James? ******************** page 1014 Frank shows Jessie his old Krag with trapdoor - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.30-40_Krag (Frank and Jesse? As in James?) http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0109835/ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesse_James Frank plans for Jesse and Stray to escape through the arroyo because it's going to get very bad- ****************** page 1015 Baldwins, sheriff's posse, KKK, ranger groups - carrying torches - smoke - to cast blackness To cast blackness? The tents were set on fire and those who could escaped. The KKK was probably there in some form because within a year there was a fairly solid second national movement and within 6 years they were powerful in the Colorado. Brice, the militia guy says, "I'm really fuckin' tired. Ain't none of us been paid since we came down." (is this surprising?) "Get your anarchist ass out of here and if you people pray - pray I don't see it in the daylight." So Jesse, age about what, 12?, is now an anarchist. ******************** page 1017 Frank is up in the arroyo and feels a hand but it's not Stray and there was nobody near- could be the hand of some dead striker --- "Maybe even Webb's own hand. Webb and all that he had tried to make of his life, and all that had been taken, and all the paths his children had gone off on . . . Frank woke after a few seconds, found he'd been drooling down his shirt. This would not do." Ghosts again - trying to break through. A photo of the arroyo: (scroll down) http://www.desertusa.com/mag06/ aug/arroys.html Frank sends Stray and Jesse back to her sister's but Jesse wants to stay. "I'll be there quick as 'we' can get this wrapped up." They both heard that "we," not the one they'd hoped for but the other one, the collective of shadows, dead on tehir feet, not half a d ozen words of Englsih among them, rifle butts dragging in the dirt, filing away east up the wagon road into the Black Hills now, trying to stay together. " At dusk, a passing freight train stopped on the tracks in front of the Guards' machine gun placements, allowing many of the miners and their families to escape to an outcrop of hills to the east called the "Black Hills." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ludlow_Massacre#The_massacre http://www.santafetrailscenicandhistoricbyway.org/ludlow.html (good map of where the train went through near Ludlow) By 7:00 p.m., the camp was in flames, and the militia descended on it and began to search and loot the camp. L During the battle, four women and eleven children had been hiding in a pit beneath one tent, where they were trapped when the tent above them was set on fire. Two of the women and all of the children suffocated. These deaths became a rallying cry for the UMWA, who called the incident the "Ludlow Massacre."[1] In addition to the fire victims, Louis Tikas (union leader - Greek) and the other men who were shot to death (including Linderfelt), three company guards and one militiaman were also killed in that day's fighting. and the aftermath at: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ludlow_Massacre ************* Other links and info: Ludlow Massacre - photos etc : http://members.tripod.com/~RedRobin2/index-29.html Linderfeld, under military arrest for murder, arson, and larceny, accepted responsibility because he was "defending the flag." NY Times 1914: http://tinyurl.com/5r5cf2' * News account from New York World 1914 http://historymatters.gmu.edu/d/5737/ * Howard Zinn a commemorative song and film clips: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U6kuvBnNNUs (Sorry, Mr. Zinn - as much as I respect what you do, I heard about the Ludlow Massacre in high school history - but since you were born in 1922 it's possible the horrors hadn't got to the history books yet when you were attended.) *********** Music: "Our Cause is Marching On," published in the United Mine Workers Journal on December 11, 1913, Sung to the tune of "The Battle Hymn of the Republic." first stanza, chorus, and fourth stanza: There's a fight in Colorado for to set the miners free, From the tyrants and the money kings and all the powers that be, They have trampled o'er the freedom that was meant for you and me, But right is marching on. Chorus Cheer, boys, cheer the cause of union! The Colorado miners' union! Glory, glory to our union! Our cause is marching on. There were union men at Lexington and famous Bunker Hill, At Valley Forge and Brandywine, to curb a tyrant's will, And the union men at Gettysburg displayed the greatest skill, To keep this nation whole. http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3732/is_200204/ai_n9025623/ pg_3?tag=artBody;col1 and another one by Aired Hayes John D. he was a Christian, John D. the psalms he sung; But he'd no mercy in his heart, He shot down old and young. One night when all were sleeping, all wrapped up in their dreams, We heard a loud explosion, We heard most terrible screams. "Oh, save us from the burning flames," We heard our children cry; But John D. laughed and shot them down Right there before our eyes. (Greenway 1953:14-15) Buried Unsung: Louis Tikas and the Ludlow Massacre http://tinyurl.com/4yauhe ***** Bekah From robinlandseadel at comcast.net Wed Jul 9 08:32:07 2008 From: robinlandseadel at comcast.net (robinlandseadel at comcast.net) Date: Wed, 09 Jul 2008 13:32:07 +0000 Subject: ATDTDA (38)Pink Tabs, cover Message-ID: <070920081332.21202.4874BDD7000A3668000052D22216566276040A0B0E0A9C0B020E0402070D019D@comcast.net> In the Craft, we pray to an imminent goddess; she permeates all walks of life, within and without us. We do not just pray to her "above" but also "within." When patriarchal religions talk about the "grace" that comes to those who pray, they are talking about the same things we did thousands of years before them. Cultivate your deeper mind and be well. Zsuzsanna Budapest. "The Holy Book of Women's Mysteries" So I start the flashbacks before the trip is quite over. I finally figured out the Pink Tabs�those passages that reminded me of The Crying of Lot 49 and Tris/Trystero. It's the intersection of the Occult and the Encrypted, some of the backstory of heretics forced to encrypt their messages in order to save their skins. Let's start with the cover, shall we? The book's title is seen through a hunk of clear, optical grade Calcite. The topmost layer�the present� has some sort of stamp of the Tibetian Chamber of Commerce. We see the three different fonts representing the layers of time in three different styles of typeface. Pynchon's novels always have Un-named characters driving the book's plots, both literary plots and and the plots of crimes being committed. Somehow, murmuring in the background of Gravity's Rainbow I sense Crowley. Lurking in the background of Against the Day is Einstein. The overarching theme of the book is light itself and Against the Day's cover [the first printing] encrypts a paradox or two�if light is both a wave and a particle, Iceland Spar demonstrates one particle becoming two. Pynchon works from the notion that those two particles are now running along different time axes. And there you are�different time axes, the notion that there are other presents, other futures we may or may not be living in. One of those other futures is Shambhala, earthly paradise. That stamp on the cover of Against the Day is bilocated. The illustration on the stamp is from about the time of the Tungusga Event, but the inscription of "Tibetan Chamber of Commerce" is from the present. The significance of that stamp will become quite apparent later, in August, when we are on the Rue du D�part: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0091874/ http://www.last.fm/music/Anouar+Brahem/_/Rue+du+d�part http://www.hotel-paris-waldorf.com/hotel-waldorf-english/location.html http://outofthewoodsnow.blogspot.com/2008/06/rue-du-dpart.html From scuffling at gmail.com Wed Jul 9 08:44:46 2008 From: scuffling at gmail.com (Henry) Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2008 09:44:46 -0400 Subject: American Fiction of the 1990s References: <7907B9CB-8189-42A3-9B40-5508376BD5DD@cox.net> Message-ID: <001401c8e1c9$f4167e10$dc437a30$@com> American Fiction of the 1990s http://tinyurl.com/6rerpv Reflections of history and culture Edited by Jay Prosser Table of Contents 1. Introduction - Jay Prosser. Transnational Borders. 2. Outside In: Latino/a Un-bordering in US Fiction - A. Robert Lee. 3. "Come change your destiny, turn suffering into silver and joy": Constituting Americans - Nahem Yousaf. 4. America as Diaphor: Cultural Translation in Bharati Mukherjee's The Holder of the World - Krishna Sen. Race Cathexes. 5. Red, White and Black: Racial Exchanges in Fiction by Sherman Alexie - Andrew Dix. 6. In the Shadow of the Gun: African-American Fiction and the Anxieties of Nostalgia - Andrew Warnes. 7. Tragic No More?: The Reappearance of the Racially Mixed Character - Suzanne W. Jones. Historical Narratives. 8. The Way We Were(n't): Origins and Empire in Thomas Pynchon's Mason & Dixon - Stacey Olster. 9. Contesting the Historical Pastoral in Philip Roth's American Trilogy - Derek Parker Royal. 10. Skating on a shit field: Tim O'Brien and the topography of trauma - Brian Jarvis. Sex Images. 11. A Painful Progress: Queer Fiction and the American Protest Literature Tradition - Zoe Trodd. 12. Regular Lolitas: The Afterlives of an American Adolescent - Kasia Boddy. 13. Glamorama, Fight Club, and the Terror of Narcissistic Abjection - Alex Blazer. Postmodern Technologies. 14. Beyond the Cold War in Don DeLillo's Mao II and Underworld - Peter Knight. 15. Selfless Cravings: Addiction and Recovery in David Foster Wallace's Infinite Jest - Timothy Aubry. 16. The End of Postmodernism: American Fiction at the Millennium - Stephen J. Burn. Henry Mu Information, Media, and Technology Consultant http://my.barackobama.com/page/community/blog/henrymu From fqmorris at gmail.com Wed Jul 9 09:05:00 2008 From: fqmorris at gmail.com (David Morris) Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2008 09:05:00 -0500 Subject: Open Letter To Scientists by tristero Message-ID: <7d461dc80807090705q4d43b45oe0e5649557de6c92@mail.gmail.com> http://digbysblog.blogspot.com/ So get reading, dear scientists. Read Your Darwin! You will enter a world where science and the humanities are not falsely separated but are as connected as all life. Which is as it should be. Love, tristero P.S. I guess you can tell I love The Origin of Species. I put it on my short list with Gravity's Rainbow, Lolita, Moby-Dick, and Harmonielehre, as one of the best books I've ever read. From scuffling at gmail.com Wed Jul 9 10:34:52 2008 From: scuffling at gmail.com (Henry) Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2008 11:34:52 -0400 Subject: Open Letter To Scientists by tristero In-Reply-To: <7d461dc80807090705q4d43b45oe0e5649557de6c92@mail.gmail.com> References: <7d461dc80807090705q4d43b45oe0e5649557de6c92@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <005501c8e1d9$5c6ab8f0$15402ad0$@com> Thanks for the timely suggestion, David. I'm convinced, particularly with next year celebrating the bicentennial of Darwin's birth! Perhaps there's a connection between the shipboard journals of M&D and... HENRY MU Information, Media, and Technology Consultant http://my.barackobama.com/page/community/blog/henrymu -----Original Message----- From: David Morris To: P-list Subject: Open Letter To Scientists by tristero http://digbysblog.blogspot.com/ So get reading, dear scientists. Read Your Darwin! You will enter a world where science and the humanities are not falsely separated but are as connected as all life. Which is as it should be. Love, tristero P.S. I guess you can tell I love The Origin of Species. I put it on my short list with Gravity's Rainbow, Lolita, Moby-Dick, and Harmonielehre, as one of the best books I've ever read. From scuffling at gmail.com Wed Jul 9 10:53:34 2008 From: scuffling at gmail.com (Henry) Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2008 11:53:34 -0400 Subject: Optimism in Montenegro References: <7d461dc80807090705q4d43b45oe0e5649557de6c92@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <006601c8e1db$f373d040$da5b70c0$@com> http://whippersnapper.wordpress.com/2008/07/08/live-from-montenegro/ "Are their novels that are, at their core, optimistic about modernity? Or any works of art, for that matter? Even books that are enthralled with capitalism - the works of Ayn Rand comes to mind - criticize real, exisiting modrn societies for being weak and collectivist. Having just read White Noise and Brideshead Revistited, I can't help but feel dissapointed that the smartest and best novelists - Pynchon, DeLillo, Waugh, hell, even Homer is ambivalent about technology and modernity - have an overall message that seems just wrong." HENRY MU Information, Media, and Technology Consultant http://my.barackobama.com/page/community/blog/henrymu From g.i.s.pursey at reading.ac.uk Wed Jul 9 12:09:11 2008 From: g.i.s.pursey at reading.ac.uk (Guy Ian Scott Pursey) Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2008 18:09:11 +0100 Subject: Working At Cross Purposes? References: <622438.44699.qm@web38407.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <0A9745774F2BF6409F9544231DCC266102AB20D6@vime1.rdg-home.ad.rdg.ac.uk> The rest of the "Man Bytes Blog" article suggests that Pynchon is the closest literature has got, in the blogger's opinion, to being a video game. By "play" I think he means interactivity of the kind most commonly encountered in video games - whereby the "consumer" is challenged by the very thing they are consuming thus making "completion" of the narrative more difficult. With Lot 49, he suggests the cadence of the sentences force the reader into paranoid thought processes. No doubt the odd structure of the book does this too. What he doesn't mention is that this then forces the reader to identify with Oedipa who is (also) paranoid and uncovering these details as we are. So perhaps, the reader becomes the "player" of the book and Oedipa the avatar; we don't see the world through her eyes (or tear-filled goggles) as you would in a first-person narrative but maybe we're locked in just behind and above her as she moves around her projected world, each part rendered just as we approach it, but at other times stored, data that's waiting, in the circuitry of cities, as seen from above...... Really interesting article. Thanks! Guy -----Original Message----- From: owner-pynchon-l at waste.org on behalf of Dave Monroe Sent: Tue 7/8/2008 16:39 To: markekohut at yahoo.com Cc: pynchon -l Subject: Re: Working At Cross Purposes? On 7/8/08, Mark Kohut wrote: > 'deliberative incorporation of play into the text" ??? > > I might have thought the comic scenes were more like "play"? http://www.hup.harvard.edu/catalog/ECOOPE.html http://www.hydra.umn.edu/derrida/sign-play.html From robinlandseadel at comcast.net Wed Jul 9 13:20:24 2008 From: robinlandseadel at comcast.net (robinlandseadel at comcast.net) Date: Wed, 09 Jul 2008 18:20:24 +0000 Subject: Repost: "The Big One" Message-ID: <070920081820.20171.487501680002DA3F00004ECB2215555884040A0B0E0A9C0B020E0402070D019D@comcast.net> Note the date. Didn't have a copy in my hands tll two weeks before release. Subject: The Big One Date: Tue, 08 Aug 2006 Something I have yet to hear mentioned here: What if �Against the Day � turns out to be �The Big One�, the one that ties it all together? Here�s my thoughts. The Occult elements of Pynchon always have been my focus. This just dawned on me: �Mason & Dixon� deals with the historical Mason/Dixon line between an age alchemical and an age scientific. Along with all those anachronisims and bad puns, there's tonne's of olde magicke and persuits alchemical. The historical range of �Against the Day� covers the early development of the Golden Dawn. This will tie this book much more tightly to the occult elements in �Gravity�s Rainbow�. �ATD� just might be �The Big One�. From mryc2903 at yahoo.fr Wed Jul 9 13:52:50 2008 From: mryc2903 at yahoo.fr (Michel Ryckx) Date: Wed, 09 Jul 2008 20:52:50 +0200 Subject: IPW 2008: Some Pictures and more Message-ID: <48750902.9030902@yahoo.fr> Will try to write something on IPW 2008 this weekend -- it was great, really great: the usual suspects, and some brilliant new voices. Some pix can be found at: http://picasaweb.google.com/pynchonweek2008/InternationalPynchonWeek2008. (thank you Sascha, we should start commenting these pictures). Hilarious: coming out of the hall for a coffee break and Sascha's students wearing paper bags, or the Ideenladen.de stand on the first day. Article in the Sueddeutsche can be found at http://www.lrz-muenchen.de/~poehlmann/IPW2008/ (Also FAZ and Welt Online articles -- choose Media Reports) The radio broadcast by Paul Hanske, featuring Sascha, Heinz Ickstadt, Hanjo Beressem and a Pynchon nut has found a permanent home on http://www.vheissu.info/art/Pynchon_Generator.mp3 (in German) ___________________________________________________________________________ Yahoo! Mail réinvente le mail ! Découvrez le nouveau Yahoo! Mail et son interface révolutionnaire. http://fr.mail.yahoo.com From fqmorris at gmail.com Wed Jul 9 14:12:12 2008 From: fqmorris at gmail.com (David Morris) Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2008 14:12:12 -0500 Subject: Repost: "The Big One" In-Reply-To: <070920081820.20171.487501680002DA3F00004ECB2215555884040A0B0E0A9C0B020E0402070D019D@comcast.net> References: <070920081820.20171.487501680002DA3F00004ECB2215555884040A0B0E0A9C0B020E0402070D019D@comcast.net> Message-ID: <7d461dc80807091212y4768a8c3l33e2fb1414e04129@mail.gmail.com> I suspect that you take magic/occult much more seriously that Pynchon ever has. Magic for you is like AF for Glenn. GR is and ever has been Pynchon's "Big One." He might as well have stopped there. Everything since has been downhill. For me, of the last three, Mason & Dixon was the best. Still no GR. David Morris - Show quoted text - On Wed, Jul 9, 2008 at 1:20 PM, wrote: > Note the date. > > Didn't have a copy in my hands tll two weeks before release. > > Subject: The Big One > Date: Tue, 08 Aug 2006 > > Something I have yet to hear mentioned here: What if "Against the Day " turns out to be "The Big One", > the one that ties it all together? Here's my thoughts. The Occult elements of Pynchon always have been my focus. This just dawned on me: "Mason & Dixon" deals with the historical Mason/Dixon line between an age alchemical and an age scientific. Along with all those anachronisims and bad puns, there's tonne's of olde magicke and persuits alchemical. The historical range of "Against the Day" covers the early development of the Golden Dawn. This will tie this book much more tightly to the occult elements in "Gravity's Rainbow". "ATD" just might be "The Big One". From glenn_scheper at earthlink.net Wed Jul 9 14:20:40 2008 From: glenn_scheper at earthlink.net (Glenn Scheper) Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2008 12:20:40 -0700 (GMT-07:00) Subject: Microsoft has Quaternions. Message-ID: <12292068.1215631240355.JavaMail.root@elwamui-muscovy.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Seeking Sleep(), I stumbled upon Slerp(), quaternions. This URL is local to my Visual Studio .NET installation, but then I sought URLs, below, into the MSDN on the web: ms-help://MS.VSCC.v80/MS.MSDN.v80/MS.NETDEVFX.v20.en/cpref1/html/T_Microsoft_WindowsMobile_DirectX_Quaternion.htm Remarks Quaternions extend the concept of rotation in three dimensions to rotation in four dimensions. You can use quaternions to rotate an object about the (x, y, z) vector by an angle theta, where w = cos(theta/2). Quaternion operations are computationally more efficient than 4 × 4 matrix multiplications used for transformations and rotations. A quaternion also represents the most efficient rotation to interpolate between two orientations of an object. Quaternions add a fourth element to the [x, y, z] values that define a vector, resulting in arbitrary 4-D vectors. However, the following formulas illustrate how each element of a unit quaternion relates to an axis-angle rotation, where q represents a unit quaternion (x, y, z, w), axis is normalized, and theta is the desired counterclockwise (CCW) rotation around the axis. q.x = sin(theta/2) * axis.x q.y = sin(theta/2) * axis.y q.z = sin(theta/2) * axis.z q.w = cos(theta/2) The top MSDN query for quaternions: http://search.msdn.microsoft.com/Default.aspx?query=quaternion&brand=msdn&locale=en-us&refinement= Remarks Quaternions represent a rotation and are typically used for smooth interpolation between two angles and for avoiding the gimbal lock problem that can occur with euler angles. http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/microsoft.xna.framework.quaternion.slerp.aspx Quaternion.Slerp Method Interpolates between two quaternions, using spherical linear interpolation. From kelber at mindspring.com Wed Jul 9 14:46:20 2008 From: kelber at mindspring.com (kelber at mindspring.com) Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2008 15:46:20 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Repost: Message-ID: <1588826.1215632780583.JavaMail.root@elwamui-huard.atl.sa.earthlink.net> I agree with your assessments of the relative merits of GR, M&D and ATD, although I don't agree that Pynchon should have just stopped after GR. He's a writer, and writers write. I suspect that ATD isn't the end, although it's unlikely that GR will ever remotely be matched. What I'd personally like to see is a collection of personal essays in the vein of the intro to Slow Learner -- but I ain't holding my breath. When the ATDTDA finally limps to a close, I think it would be fun to have a general discussion about the flaws and merits (and there are both) of the work as a whole. Laura -----Original Message----- >From: David Morris >Sent: Jul 9, 2008 3:12 PM >To: P-list >Subject: Re: Repost: "The Big One" > >I suspect that you take magic/occult much more seriously that Pynchon >ever has. Magic for you is like AF for Glenn. > >GR is and ever has been Pynchon's "Big One." He might as well have >stopped there. Everything since has been downhill. For me, of the >last three, Mason & Dixon was the best. Still no GR. > >David Morris > >- Show quoted text - > >On Wed, Jul 9, 2008 at 1:20 PM, wrote: >> Note the date. >> >> Didn't have a copy in my hands tll two weeks before release. >> >> Subject: The Big One >> Date: Tue, 08 Aug 2006 >> >> Something I have yet to hear mentioned here: What if "Against the Day " turns out to be "The Big One", > >> the one that ties it all together? Here's my thoughts. The Occult elements of Pynchon always have been my focus. This just dawned on me: "Mason & Dixon" deals with the historical Mason/Dixon line between an age alchemical and an age scientific. Along with all those anachronisims and bad puns, there's tonne's of olde magicke and persuits alchemical. The historical range of "Against the Day" covers the early development of the Golden Dawn. This will tie this book much more tightly to the occult elements in "Gravity's Rainbow". "ATD" just might be "The Big One". From markekohut at yahoo.com Wed Jul 9 15:14:42 2008 From: markekohut at yahoo.com (Mark Kohut) Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2008 13:14:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Repost: In-Reply-To: <1588826.1215632780583.JavaMail.root@elwamui-huard.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <425762.43375.qm@web38403.mail.mud.yahoo.com> I'm also going to agree, for stepping stone purposes at least, with the relative merits of TRPs oeuvre. But, all the others are more worth reading than most writers' work.... AND, I would argue that he intended "Against the Day" to be, maybe, his big one..at least ANOTHER big one......his whole life's vision went into "Against the Day", I say. Where else do his hints of the whole damn 'meaning of life' found in other books, particularly GR, come to fruition?... Even V. And GR do not have the sweep and particularity of his whole vision of History, of "all that is the case'. --- On Wed, 7/9/08, kelber at mindspring.com wrote: > From: kelber at mindspring.com > Subject: Re: Repost: > To: pynchon-l at waste.org > Date: Wednesday, July 9, 2008, 3:46 PM > I agree with your assessments of the relative merits of GR, > M&D and ATD, although I don't agree that Pynchon > should have just stopped after GR. He's a writer, and > writers write. I suspect that ATD isn't the end, > although it's unlikely that GR will ever remotely be > matched. What I'd personally like to see is a > collection of personal essays in the vein of the intro to > Slow Learner -- but I ain't holding my breath. When > the ATDTDA finally limps to a close, I think it would be > fun to have a general discussion about the flaws and merits > (and there are both) of the work as a whole. > > Laura > > -----Original Message----- > >From: David Morris > >Sent: Jul 9, 2008 3:12 PM > >To: P-list > >Subject: Re: Repost: "The Big One" > > > >I suspect that you take magic/occult much more > seriously that Pynchon > >ever has. Magic for you is like AF for Glenn. > > > >GR is and ever has been Pynchon's "Big > One." He might as well have > >stopped there. Everything since has been downhill. > For me, of the > >last three, Mason & Dixon was the best. Still no > GR. > > > >David Morris > > > >- Show quoted text - > > > >On Wed, Jul 9, 2008 at 1:20 PM, > wrote: > >> Note the date. > >> > >> Didn't have a copy in my hands tll two weeks > before release. > >> > >> Subject: The Big One > >> Date: Tue, 08 Aug 2006 > >> > >> Something I have yet to hear mentioned here: What > if "Against the Day " turns out to be "The > Big One", > > > >> the one that ties it all together? Here's my > thoughts. The Occult elements of Pynchon always have been > my focus. This just dawned on me: "Mason & > Dixon" deals with the historical Mason/Dixon line > between an age alchemical and an age scientific. Along with > all those anachronisims and bad puns, there's > tonne's of olde magicke and persuits alchemical. The > historical range of "Against the Day" covers the > early development of the Golden Dawn. This will tie this > book much more tightly to the occult elements in > "Gravity's Rainbow". "ATD" just > might be "The Big One". From robinlandseadel at comcast.net Wed Jul 9 15:23:57 2008 From: robinlandseadel at comcast.net (robinlandseadel at comcast.net) Date: Wed, 09 Jul 2008 20:23:57 +0000 Subject: Repost: "The Big One" Message-ID: <070920082023.28268.48751E5D00062C1300006E6C2216538496040A0B0E0A9C0B020E0402070D019D@comcast.net> David Morris: I suspect that you take magic/occult much more seriously that Pynchon ever has. Magic for you is like AF for Glenn. GR is and ever has been Pynchon's "Big One." He might as well have stopped there. Everything since has been downhill. For me, of the last three, Mason & Dixon was the best. Still no GR. Be that as it may, the Theosophists, the Golden Dawn, a parody version of the O.T.O. [T.W.I.T.] and a parody version of Alistair Crowley [Nicholas Nookshaft] have major roles in Against the Day, not simply pop-ups like Beli Lugosi or Groucho Marx. Again,as I have pointed out before, the intersection of the Occult and the Encrypted is central to Pynchon's writing. Think of it for a moment. You read the intro to Slow Learner? Getting into the British history of spying [a Pynchon favorite] also leads us to the history of encryption and that leads us back to alchemists and others with antipodal relationships to dominant technological paradigms and Governmental control. It's all very well and good that you, like many others, see Gravity's Rainbow as Pynchon's greatest work. I think it's rather like saying the "Inferno" is Dante's greatest work and that "Purgatorio" and "Paradiso" are inferior sequels. GR is a vision of hell. M & D is the purgatory of our country's north/south divide [among others, including Mason's personal purgatory.] Against the Day has many reaching towards heaven and flying towards Grace. I happen to very much enjoy Vineland and Mason & Dixon and Against the Day. There's a cadre of self-appointed critics that want to maintain a theory that there is essentially no moral center in Pynchon's world. I do not agree with that viewpoint.. Those same critics maintain that Pynchon's pinnacle is the profoundly pessimistic Gravity's Rainbow*. And so it goes. As regards the "AF" reference, I don't see anything in Pynchon [save the worm ouroboros in GR] that points to that concept. Against the Day, Mason & Dixon, Vineland and Gravity's Rainbow are loaded with references to the Magickal and the Occult. If you can't see them then you have allowed yourself to be misdirected. The Ceremonial Magic themes in Gravity's Rainbow are expanded on in Against the Day. If you can't see it then fine. But it's there alright�scrying and and Norse Myths and tarot cards and crystals, pretty much the whole nine, if you catch my drift. Of course, other spiritual systems might not be thought of as part of the continuium of what Lenny Bruce called "Rosicrucians and other non-scheduled theologies." But the Theosophists embraced the Buddhists, it's a major plot-line in AtD, remember? Call me a crackpot all you like, but only after re-reading Weissman's Tarot. *"Oh see," sez Commando Connie, "it has to be alliterative. How about . . .discharge dumplings?" From scuffling at gmail.com Wed Jul 9 16:25:37 2008 From: scuffling at gmail.com (Henry) Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2008 17:25:37 -0400 Subject: Repost: "The Big One" In-Reply-To: <070920082023.28268.48751E5D00062C1300006E6C2216538496040A0B0E0A9C0B020E0402070D019D@comcast.net> References: <070920082023.28268.48751E5D00062C1300006E6C2216538496040A0B0E0A9C0B020E0402070D019D@comcast.net> Message-ID: <001f01c8e20a$55316530$ff942f90$@com> I once asked a little girl who had just seen "Bambi" for the first time what her favorite part was. She was a particularly bright child, but very young, and so without guile she told me "When Bambi's mother was shot." I understood immediately! It's the most exciting scene! That's why I like the GR=Inferno idea. For what it's worth, I still ENJOY GR the most. It's the same as why I like Kill Bill 1 better than 2; it rocks harder. Yeah, I'm that simple. Henry Mu Information, Media, and Technology Consultant http://my.barackobama.com/page/community/blog/henrymu -----Original Message----- From: robinlandseadel It's all very well and good that you, like many others, see Gravity's Rainbow as Pynchon's greatest work. I think it's rather like saying the "Inferno" is Dante's greatest work and that "Purgatorio" and "Paradiso" are inferior sequels. GR is a vision of hell. M & D is the purgatory of our country's north/south divide [among others, including Mason's personal purgatory.] Against the Day has many reaching towards heaven and flying towards Grace. I happen to very much enjoy Vineland and Mason & Dixon and Against the Day. There's a cadre of self-appointed critics that want to maintain a theory that there is essentially no moral center in Pynchon's world. I do not agree with that viewpoint.. Those same critics maintain that Pynchon's pinnacle is the profoundly pessimistic Gravity's Rainbow*. And so it goes. From malignd at aol.com Wed Jul 9 16:43:30 2008 From: malignd at aol.com (malignd at aol.com) Date: Wed, 09 Jul 2008 17:43:30 -0400 Subject: Repost: "The Big One" In-Reply-To: <070920082023.28268.48751E5D00062C1300006E6C2216538496040A0B0E0A9C0B020E0402070D019D@comcast.net> References: <070920082023.28268.48751E5D00062C1300006E6C2216538496040A0B0E0A9C0B020E0402070D019D@comcast.net> Message-ID: <8CAB023F64C2A87-1DD4-1A02@FWM-D38.sysops.aol.com> <> I don't know who makes up the "cadre" you describe and it's hard to tell in what you write whether they are incoherent or you are, but pessimism and morality are not mutually exclusive. GR is pessimistic, overall, but it is also very moralistic. I'd argue that if there is a problem with Pynchon's moralism, it is that it is, for me, anyway, not terribly sophisticated. He is fluid in sophisticated ideas, surely; but his moral judgements are black and white. His paranoid connection of one thing to another--e.g., nazism to IG Farben to Royal Dutch Shell to Ciba Geigy--indicts everything and everyone equally. There's guilt to go around, but Royal Dutch Shell is not the third reich. He is similarly unfailingly on the side of the underdog, as most times, am I. But the underdog or oppressed, freed of oppression, can ultimately make your skin crawl, e.g., Mugabe. Pynchon is not very subtle or insightful on such dynamics. -----Original Message----- From: robinlandseadel at comcast.net To: P-list Sent: Wed, 9 Jul 2008 4:23 pm Subject: Re: Repost: "The Big One" David Morris: I suspect that you take magic/occult much more seriously that Pynchon ever has. Magic for you is like AF for Glenn. GR is and ever has been Pynchon's "Big One." He might as well have stopped there. Everything since has been downhill. For me, of the last three, Mason & Dixon was the best. Still no GR. Be that as it may, the Theosophists, the Golden Dawn, a parody version of the O.T.O. [T.W.I.T.] and a parody version of Alistair Crowley [Nicholas Nookshaft] have major roles in Against the Day, not simply pop-ups like Beli Lugosi or Groucho Marx. Again,as I have pointed out before, the intersection of the Occult and the Encrypted is central to Pynchon's writing. Think of it for a moment. You read the intro to Slow Learner? Getting into the British history of spying [a Pynchon favorite] also leads us to the history of encryption and that leads us back to alchemists and others with antipodal relationships to dominant technological paradigms and Governmental control. It's all very well and good that you, like many others, see Gravity's Rainbow as Pynchon's greatest work. I think it's rather like saying the "Inferno" is Dante's greatest work and that "Purgatorio" and "Paradiso" are inferior sequels. GR is a vision of hell. M & D is the purgatory of our country's north/south divide [among others, including Mason's personal purgatory.] Against the Day has many reaching towards heaven and flying towards Grace. I happen to very much enjoy Vineland and Mason & Dixon and Against the Day. There's a cadre of self-appointed critics that want to maintain a theory that there is essentially no moral center in Pynchon's world. I do not agree with that viewpoint.. Those same critics maintain that Pynchon's pinnacle is the profoundly pessimistic Gravity's Rainbow*. And so it goes. As regards the "AF" reference, I don't see anything in Pynchon [save the worm ouroboros in GR] that points to that concept. Against the Day, Mason & Dixon, Vineland and Gravity's Rainbow are loaded with references to the Magickal and the Occult. If you can't see them then you have allowed yourself to be misdirected. The Ceremonial Magic themes in Gravity's Rainbow are expanded on in Against the Day. If you can't see it then fine. But it's there alright—scrying and and Norse Myths and tarot cards and crystals, pretty much the whole nine, if you catch my drift. Of course, other spiritual systems might not be thought of as part of the continuium of what Lenny Bruce called "Rosicrucians and other non-scheduled theologies." But the Theosophists embraced the Buddhists, it's a major plot-line in AtD, remember? Call me a crackpot all you like, but only after re-reading Weissman's Tarot. *"Oh see," sez Commando Connie, "it has to be alliterative. How about . . .discharge dumplings?" -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From robinlandseadel at comcast.net Wed Jul 9 17:20:21 2008 From: robinlandseadel at comcast.net (robinlandseadel at comcast.net) Date: Wed, 09 Jul 2008 22:20:21 +0000 Subject: Repost: "The Big One" Message-ID: <070920082220.5029.487539A50000B0C3000013A52216566276040A0B0E0A9C0B020E0402070D019D@comcast.net> <> malignd: I don't know who makes up the "cadre" you describe and it's hard to tell in what you write whether they are incoherent or you are, . . . I've attempted to read a number of "Postmodern" essays on Pynchon full of gobbledity-goop. Whether by design or accident, they were just about as bad as it gets. I realize that cohesion and clarity are not my long suits, I'll cop to that. I'd say that you are one of the people I'd include in the set of those most dismissive of Pynchon's work after Gravity's Rainbow. . . . .but pessimism and morality are not mutually exclusive. GR is pessimistic, overall, but it is also very moralistic. I'd argue that if there is a problem with Pynchon's moralism, it is that it is, for me, anyway, not terribly sophisticated. He is fluid in sophisticated ideas, surely; but his moral judgements are black and white. His paranoid connection of one thing to another--e.g., nazism to IG Farben to Royal Dutch Shell to Ciba Geigy--indicts everything and everyone equally. There's guilt to go around, but Royal Dutch Shell is not the third reich. . . . I would disagree with you on this particular point and would point to Weissmann's tarot as the narrator's true feelings on the subject. I simply cannot see an author documenting so much anarchist history without some devotion to the cause. Certain themes pop up in all of the man's books, over and over. They skew hard left. Maybe that's the part you don't like. . . . .He is similarly unfailingly on the side of the underdog, as most times, am I. But the underdog or oppressed, freed of oppression, � can ultimately make your skin crawl, e.g., Mugabe. Pynchon is not very subtle or insightful on such dynamics. Well, he's not subtle, I'll grant you that. <> ". . . .(what, a dialectical Tarot? Yes indeedyfoax! A-and if you don't think there are Marxist-Leninist magicians around, well you better think again!). . . ." From robinlandseadel at comcast.net Wed Jul 9 18:03:57 2008 From: robinlandseadel at comcast.net (robinlandseadel at comcast.net) Date: Wed, 09 Jul 2008 23:03:57 +0000 Subject: Repost: "The Big One" Message-ID: <070920082303.5415.487543DD0005053B000015272216566276040A0B0E0A9C0B020E0402070D019D@comcast.net> Henry : I once asked a little girl who had just seen "Bambi" for the first time what her favorite part was. She was a particularly bright child, but very young, and so without guile she told me "When Bambi's mother was shot." I understood immediately! It's the most exciting scene! The one that stuck in my my was that baby skunk with the decidedly bent line reading of: "You can call me Flower if you want to!" Very Cyprian, if you ask me. Oh yes, I was about four or so, kept repeating the line over and over. Must have drove the parents insane. Anarchists [there's a whole new breed of them, these days] and Steampunk enthusiasts seem to be the most pleased with Against the Day. I suspect the book will pull in a different sort of reader than the people who read Gravity's Rainbow when it first emerged. From dpayne1912 at hotmail.com Wed Jul 9 23:09:31 2008 From: dpayne1912 at hotmail.com (David Payne) Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2008 04:09:31 +0000 Subject: Repost: "The Big One" In-Reply-To: <070920082220.5029.487539A50000B0C3000013A52216566276040A0B0E0A9C0B020E0402070D019D@comcast.net> References: <070920082220.5029.487539A50000B0C3000013A52216566276040A0B0E0A9C0B020E0402070D019D@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 9 Jul 2008 (22:20:21 +0000), Robin (robinlandseadel at comcast.net) wrote: >[quoting Malignd] . . . .but pessimism and morality are not mutually exclusive. GR is > pessimistic, overall, but it is also very moralistic. I'd argue that > if there is a problem with Pynchon's moralism, it is that it is, for > me, anyway, not terribly sophisticated. He is fluid in sophisticated > ideas, surely; but his moral judgements are black and white. > His paranoid connection of one thing to another--e.g., nazism to > IG Farben to Royal Dutch Shell to Ciba Geigy--indicts everything > and everyone equally. There's guilt to go around, but Royal Dutch > Shell is not the third reich. . . .[end of quoting Malignd] > > I would disagree with you on this particular point and would point to > Weissmann's tarot as the narrator's true feelings on the subject. > I simply cannot see an author documenting so much anarchist > history without some devotion to the cause. Certain themes pop > up in all of the man's books, over and over. They skew hard left. > Maybe that's the part you don't like. Hold on -- can you expound on what you mean by "[I] would point to Weissmann's tarot as the narrator's true feelings on the subject"? Because it seems to me that the Pynchon's novels *are* pretty much populated by good guys and bad guys, the right choice and the wrong choice. Malignd said it better than me: "He is fluid in sophisticated ideas, surely; but his moral judgements are black and white." I'd argue that M&D presents a more nuanced judgement on the morality of its characters than the other novels, but I think that the point is well made: Pynchon's characters inhabit a morally flat universe. Hence, perhaps, the common criticism that his characters are flat. What exactly is the disagreement here? _________________________________________________________________ Making the world a better place one message at a time. http://www.imtalkathon.com/?source=EML_WLH_Talkathon_BetterPlace From dpayne1912 at hotmail.com Wed Jul 9 23:18:58 2008 From: dpayne1912 at hotmail.com (David Payne) Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2008 04:18:58 +0000 Subject: The heavenly city of the eighteenth century philosophers Message-ID: "The heavenly city of the eighteenth century philosophers" by Carl L. Beker I think I learned of this book from this list-serve? Anyhow, just finished reading it, and I highly recommend it. Certainly plays to many Pynchonian themes (or visa-versa). Quoted from Amazon: "Here a distinguished American historian challenges the belief that the eighteenth century was essentially modern in its temper. In crystalline prose Carl Becker demonstrates that the period commonly described as the Age of Reason was, in fact, very far from that; that Voltaire, Hume, Diderot, and Locke were living in a medieval world, and that these philosophers "demolished the Heavenly City of St. Augustine only to rebuild it with more up-to-date materials." In a new foreword, Johnson Kent Wright looks at the book's continuing relevance within the context of current discussion about the Enlightenment." This quote fails to mention: The Surprise Ending! Seriously.... _________________________________________________________________ Use video conversation to talk face-to-face with Windows Live Messenger. http://www.windowslive.com/messenger/connect_your_way.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_Refresh_messenger_video_072008 From isread at btinternet.com Thu Jul 10 00:08:58 2008 From: isread at btinternet.com (Paul Nightingale) Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2008 06:08:58 +0100 Subject: Atdtda28: Round and round on an interesting topic, 782 Message-ID: <000601c8e24b$0fb5dae0$2f2190a0$@com> As the narrative returns to Kit and Prance, "going round and round as usual", it returns also to the Event, although 'it' won't be named as such. The narrative, as opposed to characters within the narrative, finally attempts representation: one sentence listing those objects or features that might be seen--by Kit/Prance--as red, another insisting that the wind, or sound itself--phenomena pertaining to other senses--might also be "red as a living heart". Where Padzhitnoff fears "collective amnesia" (781), Kit/Prance immediately relate what has happened to what they can recall, "the great roaring as they passed through the Prophet's Gate" (782). They are of course among those "eyewitnesses living below" (781); if comprehension here is rendered phenomenologically, it is in contrast to preceding sections. Moreover, the explosion, the "heavenwide blast" with which the chapter opens (779), has now become "the voice of a world announcing that it would never go back to what it had been" (782). This invokes the impossibility of representation, a rendering of that which is now absent; and also offers a narrative turning point that might remind us of the fast-forward frequently employed to position a character viewing 'now' as 'the past'. Kit does look ahead in advocating agency, or movement; he wants to "see if there's anything we can do". Cf. Padzhitnoff's concern that the Bol'shaia Ingra has done something that cannot be recalled (781). Prance, however, denies any role for himself, passing judgement ("This is not political", 782) in the way the Bol'shaia Ingra's crew had previously (780-782). At the start of the section Kit and Prance discuss, repetitively, "which one [is] less able to clean up after himself" (782), the possibility of returning to an earlier state; subsequently there is the impossibility of the world "go[ing] back to what it had been"; and then there is Prance's denial that what has happened is any part of 'his' unchanging world. From markekohut at yahoo.com Thu Jul 10 05:11:10 2008 From: markekohut at yahoo.com (Mark Kohut) Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2008 03:11:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Repost: "The Big One" In-Reply-To: <070920082220.5029.487539A50000B0C3000013A52216566276040A0B0E0A9C0B020E0402070D019D@comcast.net> Message-ID: <371270.7040.qm@web38404.mail.mud.yahoo.com> I suggest that the moral vision, fully seen, of Against the Day, as of Mason & Dixon, maybe. is as subtle as anyone's and more subtle than almost everyone's. And GR's IS as subtle as Dante's.... --- On Wed, 7/9/08, robinlandseadel at comcast.net wrote: > From: robinlandseadel at comcast.net > Subject: Re: Repost: "The Big One" > To: "P-list" > Date: Wednesday, July 9, 2008, 6:20 PM > < want to maintain > a theory that there is essentially no moral center in > Pynchon's > world. I do not agree with that viewpoint.. Those > same critics > maintain that Pynchon's pinnacle is the profoundly > pessimistic > Gravity's Rainbow*. And so it goes.>> > > malignd: > I don't know who makes up the "cadre" > you describe and it's hard > to tell in what you write whether they are incoherent > or you are, . . . > > I've attempted to read a number of > "Postmodern" essays on Pynchon full of > gobbledity-goop. Whether by design or accident, they were > just about as bad > as it gets. I realize that cohesion and clarity are not my > long suits, I'll > cop to that. I'd say that you are one of the people > I'd include in the set > of those most dismissive of Pynchon's work after > Gravity's Rainbow. > > . . . .but pessimism and morality are not mutually > exclusive. GR is > pessimistic, overall, but it is also very moralistic. > I'd argue that > if there is a problem with Pynchon's moralism, it > is that it is, for > me, anyway, not terribly sophisticated. He is fluid > in sophisticated > ideas, surely; but his moral judgements are black and > white. > His paranoid connection of one thing to another--e.g., > nazism to > IG Farben to Royal Dutch Shell to Ciba Geigy--indicts > everything > and everyone equally. There's guilt to go around, > but Royal Dutch > Shell is not the third reich. . . . > > I would disagree with you on this particular point and > would point to > Weissmann's tarot as the narrator's true feelings > on the subject. > I simply cannot see an author documenting so much anarchist > > history without some devotion to the cause. Certain themes > pop > up in all of the man's books, over and over. They skew > hard left. > Maybe that's the part you don't like. > > . . . .He is similarly unfailingly on the side of the > underdog, as most > times, am I. But the underdog or oppressed, freed of > oppression, – > can ultimately make your skin crawl, e.g., Mugabe. > Pynchon is > not very subtle or insightful on such dynamics. > > Well, he's not subtle, I'll grant you that. > > < after re-reading > Weissman's Tarot.>> > > ". . . .(what, a dialectical Tarot? Yes > indeedyfoax! A-and if you > don't think there are Marxist-Leninist magicians > around, well > you better think again!). . . ." From markekohut at yahoo.com Thu Jul 10 05:17:47 2008 From: markekohut at yahoo.com (Mark Kohut) Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2008 03:17:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ATDTDA (38)Pink Tabs, cover In-Reply-To: <070920081332.21202.4874BDD7000A3668000052D22216566276040A0B0E0A9C0B020E0402070D019D@comcast.net> Message-ID: <534495.8283.qm@web38404.mail.mud.yahoo.com> brillaint on the cover, I think. --- On Wed, 7/9/08, robinlandseadel at comcast.net wrote: > From: robinlandseadel at comcast.net > Subject: ATDTDA (38)Pink Tabs, cover > To: "P-list" > Date: Wednesday, July 9, 2008, 9:32 AM > In the Craft, we pray to an imminent goddess; she permeates > all walks of life, within and without us. We do > not just pray to > her "above" but also > "within." When patriarchal religions talk > about the "grace" that comes to those > who pray, they are > talking about the same things we did thousands of > years > before them. > > Cultivate your deeper mind and be well. > > Zsuzsanna Budapest. "The Holy Book of > Women's Mysteries" > > So I start the flashbacks before the trip is quite over. > > I finally figured out the Pink Tabs—those passages that > reminded > me of The Crying of Lot 49 and Tris/Trystero. It's the > intersection of the > Occult and the Encrypted, some of the backstory of heretics > forced to > encrypt their messages in order to save their skins. > > Let's start with the cover, shall we? The book's > title is seen through a > hunk of clear, optical grade Calcite. The topmost > layer—the present— > has some sort of stamp of the Tibetian Chamber of Commerce. > We see > the three different fonts representing the layers of time > in three different > styles of typeface. Pynchon's novels always have > Un-named > characters driving the book's plots, both literary > plots and and the plots > of crimes being committed. Somehow, murmuring in the > background of > Gravity's Rainbow I sense Crowley. Lurking in the > background of > Against the Day is Einstein. The overarching theme of the > book is light > itself and Against the Day's cover [the first printing] > encrypts a paradox > or two—if light is both a wave and a particle, Iceland > Spar demonstrates > one particle becoming two. Pynchon works from the notion > that > those two particles are now running along different time > axes. And there > you are—different time axes, the notion that there are > other presents, > other futures we may or may not be living in. > > One of those other futures is Shambhala, earthly paradise. > > That stamp on the cover of Against the Day is bilocated. > > The illustration on the stamp is from about the time of the > Tungusga > Event, but the inscription of "Tibetan Chamber of > Commerce" is > from the present. The significance of that stamp will > become quite > apparent later, in August, when we are on the Rue du > Départ: > > http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0091874/ > > http://www.last.fm/music/Anouar+Brahem/_/Rue+du+départ > > http://www.hotel-paris-waldorf.com/hotel-waldorf-english/location.html > > http://outofthewoodsnow.blogspot.com/2008/06/rue-du-dpart.html From robinlandseadel at comcast.net Thu Jul 10 06:23:01 2008 From: robinlandseadel at comcast.net (robinlandseadel at comcast.net) Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2008 11:23:01 +0000 Subject: Repost: "The Big One" Message-ID: <071020081123.3501.4875F115000B533D00000DAD2216557996040A0B0E0A9C0B020E0402070D019D@comcast.net> David Payne: Hold on -- can you expound on what you mean by "[I] would point to Weissmann's tarot as the narrator's true feelings on the subject"? I first read Gravity's Rainbow a little over 25 years ago while living on the Novato site of the California Renaissance Faire. Tarot card readers have long been in abundance at the Renaissance Faires, but until reading Weissman's Tarot card reading in Gravity's Rainbow, I did not take the Tarot seriously. It should be noted that Pynchon's reading of the cards is a Kabbalistic reading. I could cite chapter and verse, but anyone trying to understand the passage will need to read all of it in context. Steven C. Weisenburger's comments in "A Gravity's Rainbow Companion" are particularly helpful. Weissman's tarot starts on page 746 of the Viking edition, 871 of the mass-market Bantam edition and 761 of the later Penguin Classics edition. I got both Malign's and David Morris' thoughts in my head when speaking about the narrator's true feelings Please to note that I did not say the author's feelings, but the narrator's�can't assume they're identical, can we? David's thoughts are that I'm "projecting a world" and that Magick and the occult are my bailiwicks, not the author's. But this passage in particular demonstrates a knowledge of the tarot and a sophistication of explication rarely found in books on the subject. Pynchon's reading is suffused with an awareness of the subtler meanings of the cards. Pynchon knows more about the cards, ceremonial magic and kabbahlla then I ever will. And I'm into it, in no small part because of the awareness and sophistication of this demonstration of a tarot card reading. On top of that, other kabbalistic interpretations are posted in many places in Gravity's Rainbow and they all seem to climax in this sequence. Malign's point: "There's guilt to go around, but Royal Dutch Shell is not the third reich. . . ." inverts Pynchon's meaning. The author, demonstrates [in this card reading] that this Nazi will pretty much rule via the "New World Order." Weissman will find his way to the offices of rulers in the new world. http://content.answers.com/main/content/wp/en-commons/thumb/f/f5/250px-Wernher_von_Braun(2).jpg "If you're wondering where he's gone, look among the successful academics. the Presidential advisers, the token intellectuals who sit on boards of directors. He is almost surely there. Look high, not low. His future card, the card of what will come, is The World." GR, P764/V749/B874 As far as Pynchon's concerned, Shell's just as much a Nazi as the rest of 'em. From robinlandseadel at comcast.net Thu Jul 10 06:43:18 2008 From: robinlandseadel at comcast.net (robinlandseadel at comcast.net) Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2008 11:43:18 +0000 Subject: Repost: "The Big One" Message-ID: <071020081143.6554.4875F5D6000B71A00000199A2216557996040A0B0E0A9C0B020E0402070D019D@comcast.net> . . . .and I apologize for the numerous errors that slithered into my previous post. What can I say, it's 4:30 in the morning in the center of a heat wave. From robinlandseadel at comcast.net Thu Jul 10 07:57:53 2008 From: robinlandseadel at comcast.net (robinlandseadel at comcast.net) Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2008 12:57:53 +0000 Subject: ATDTDA (38) Pink Tabs, 4, 18, 78, 84 Message-ID: <071020081257.23407.48760751000DBB6400005B6F2216549976040A0B0E0A9C0B020E0402070D019D@comcast.net> The flashbacks continue. . . 4: Miles trips over the picnic basket: "Perhaps its familiarity," Randolph suggested plainitivly, "rendered it temporarily invisible to you." Miles will prove to be a bit "Potteresque", comfortable in conversation with Pugnax and well in touch with his intuitive side. 18: Penny Black, an obvious philatilic reference. Remember that stamps play a similar role in Against the Day as they do in Crying of Lot 49. 78: "Almost makes you think, if there's a Philosopher's Stone, there might not also be�" A Sorcerer's Stone? An Idiot's Stone? Voledemort? Ritual reluctance at its finest, the mad bomber and the photographer talkin' alchemical shop, rendering magical themes explicit by attempting to conceal their words. 84: "Look. These aren't real stamps here," Veikko said. They are the sorts of artifacts that Pierce Inverarity collected, the fake postage of underground mail systems, the communication links for anarchists. In CoL49, Oedipa is perfectly middle-class and insulated. She is an outsider looking in via a collection of Cinderellas and forgeries. Veikko and Webb are insiders, looking to get out. And note that "Minneskort"�memory card�reference. When you Traverse the Web, you blow up the old stories, the generally accepted explanations. Traversing the Webb enables exposure of old stories on a constant basis, they cannot be shaken off any longer: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2004/sep/25/usa.secondworldwar From robinlandseadel at comcast.net Thu Jul 10 08:16:45 2008 From: robinlandseadel at comcast.net (robinlandseadel at comcast.net) Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2008 13:16:45 +0000 Subject: ATDTDA: (35) 978, 979, 1005 pink tabs Message-ID: <071020081316.14146.48760BBD00025807000037422216549976040A0B0E0A9C0B020E0402070D019D@comcast.net> "Again with this Crying of of 49 horseshit? You need to see a shrink real bad!" Yet another unexpressed term, related to CoL 49 and building out of an embarrassing climax and horrible pun on pages 978/979�a painfully obvious reference to CoL 49. "You want to go after Vibe? and me take Foley? well you have my blessin' Ewb, and no hard feelins', no matter what people say afterwards." "How's that, Frank?" "Oh, you know, psychological talk and all that. . . ." The unexpressed term is "Oedipus Complex." And remember how deep Pynchon goes with references to the myths and legends of the Ancient Greeks with his Orphic passage into WWI. From robinlandseadel at comcast.net Thu Jul 10 08:25:49 2008 From: robinlandseadel at comcast.net (robinlandseadel at comcast.net) Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2008 13:25:49 +0000 Subject: ATDTDA (38) Pink Tabs 10791083 Message-ID: <071020081325.9801.48760DDD000C56FC000026492216549976040A0B0E0A9C0B020E0402070D019D@comcast.net> I'm not posting anything from the text here. But if you are following my thoughts please read this passage. I'm recursing here but stamps do have an extraordinary importance in the penultimate scenes of Against the Day. From scuffling at gmail.com Thu Jul 10 08:45:37 2008 From: scuffling at gmail.com (Henry) Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2008 09:45:37 -0400 Subject: ATDTDA (38)Pink Tabs, cover In-Reply-To: <534495.8283.qm@web38404.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <070920081332.21202.4874BDD7000A3668000052D22216566276040A0B0E0A9C0B020E0402070D019D@comcast.net> <534495.8283.qm@web38404.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <000a01c8e293$3c6dd540$b5497fc0$@com> I agree! Nice one, Robin (and pay no attention to that troll!) Henry Mu Information, Media, and Technology Consultant http://my.barackobama.com/page/community/blog/henrymu -----Original Message----- From: Mark Kohut brillaint on the cover, I think. --- On Wed, 7/9/08, robinlandseadel at comcast.net Let's start with the cover, shall we? The book's title is seen through a hunk of clear, optical grade Calcite. The topmost layer—the present— has some sort of stamp of the Tibetian Chamber of Commerce. We see the three different fonts representing the layers of time in three different styles of typeface. The overarching theme of the book is light itself and Against the Day's cover [the first printing] encrypts a paradox or two—if light is both a wave and a particle, Iceland Spar demonstrates one particle becoming two. Pynchon works from the notion that those two particles are now running along different time axes. And there you are—different time axes, the notion that there are other presents, other futures we may or may not be living in. One of those other futures is Shambhala, earthly paradise. That stamp on the cover of Against the Day is bilocated. The illustration on the stamp is from about the time of the Tungusga Event, but the inscription of "Tibetan Chamber of Commerce" is from the present. The significance of that stamp will become quite apparent later, in August, when we are on the Rue du Départ: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0091874/ References: <071020081257.23407.48760751000DBB6400005B6F2216549976040A0B0E0A9C0B020E0402070D019D@comcast.net> Message-ID: <000c01c8e294$ba0c8900$2e259b00$@com> A-and "Ceci n'est pas une pipe." Stamps are symbols, i.e. never really real. Henry Mu Information, Media, and Technology Consultant http://www.urdomain.us/scuffling.htm -----Original Message----- From: robinlandseadel The flashbacks continue. . . 84: "Look. These aren't real stamps here," Veikko said. They are the sorts of artifacts that Pierce Inverarity collected, the fake postage of underground mail systems, the communication links for anarchists. In CoL49, Oedipa is perfectly middle-class and insulated. She is an outsider looking in via a collection of Cinderellas and forgeries. From robinlandseadel at comcast.net Thu Jul 10 09:50:16 2008 From: robinlandseadel at comcast.net (robinlandseadel at comcast.net) Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2008 14:50:16 +0000 Subject: ATDTDA (38) Rue du depart (1986) Message-ID: <071020081450.29096.487621A8000DA192000071A82215568884040A0B0E0A9C0B020E0402070D019D@comcast.net> Review Summary The protagonists in this drama are caught in the sleaze of the lower echelons of Paris life and are trying to get out. Clara (Ann-Gisel Glass) arrives in the underbelly of the city after escaping a dysfunctional middle-class family, and moves in with Mimi (Christine Boisson), a prostitute. Clara also meets Paul (Francois Cluzet) an escaped convict, and a romantic relationship starts to simmer. Only two major hurdles stand in their way of escaping to a better life in another city. Paul is determined to avenge the death of his father which might make it easier for the police to find him, and Mimi's pimp is equally determined to coerce Clara into a life of prostitution. ~ Eleanor Mannikka, All Movie Guide http://movies.nytimes.com/movie/121052/Rue-du-depart/overview From robinlandseadel at comcast.net Thu Jul 10 09:57:38 2008 From: robinlandseadel at comcast.net (robinlandseadel at comcast.net) Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2008 14:57:38 +0000 Subject: ATDTDA (38) 26 Rue du depart (1921) Message-ID: <071020081457.23976.48762362000CE8A300005DA82215568884040A0B0E0A9C0B020E0402070D019D@comcast.net> This is the modern world. . . . 1919 Returning to Paris, Mondrian lived first on the top floor of at 5 Rue du Coulmier, then settled again at his old address of 26 Rue du D�part and, in March 1936 moved to at 278 Boulevard Raspail. http://www.snap-dragon.com/mondrian_biography.htm http://tinyurl.com/6jrw2s From paul.mackin at verizon.net Thu Jul 10 09:01:37 2008 From: paul.mackin at verizon.net (Paul Mackin) Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2008 10:01:37 -0400 Subject: Repost: "The Big One" In-Reply-To: <071020081123.3501.4875F115000B533D00000DAD2216557996040A0B0E0A9C0B020E0402070D019D@comcast.net> References: <071020081123.3501.4875F115000B533D00000DAD2216557996040A0B0E0A9C0B020E0402070D019D@comcast.net> Message-ID: <48761641.7050207@verizon.net> robinlandseadel at comcast.net wrote: > > "There's guilt to go around, but Royal Dutch Shell is not the third reich. . . ." > > inverts Pynchon's meaning. The author, demonstrates [in this card > reading] that this Nazi will pretty much rule via the "New World Order." > Weissman will find his way to the offices of rulers in the new world. > > http://content.answers.com/main/content/wp/en-commons/thumb/f/f5/250px-Wernher_von_Braun(2).jpg > > "If you're wondering where he's gone, look among the successful > academics. the Presidential advisers, the token intellectuals who > sit on boards of directors. He is almost surely there. Look high, > not low. > His future card, the card of what will come, is The World." > GR, P764/V749/B874 > > As far as Pynchon's concerned, Shell's just as much a Nazi as the rest of 'em. > > > Then Pynchon's sense of moral equivalency would be out of whack. Which was one of malignd's points. In fairness to Pynchon, however, we should be careful not to over interpret the passage. First off, Weissmann was always more into Transcendence than into Nazi preoccupations with race purification and Europe domination. Secondly, saying that former Nazis (Whom W undoubted was one of) would find important roles in the post-war corporate world is not necessarily saying that the latter is full-fledgedly Nazi. Wisely or unwisely bright people of questionable backgrounds often tend to be allowed to float to the top. But the "world" the new Weissmann will be at the top of (near top of) is the World of Business, not the old Weissmann's world of romantic dreams or the Holocautic World of the Nazis. The passage is a wonderful one but we must not forget that creative writers often need to make things sound more sinister than in reality they are. From robinlandseadel at comcast.net Thu Jul 10 10:16:27 2008 From: robinlandseadel at comcast.net (robinlandseadel at comcast.net) Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2008 15:16:27 +0000 Subject: Repost: "The Big One" Message-ID: <071020081516.25220.487627CB000B60B0000062842215568884040A0B0E0A9C0B020E0402070D019D@comcast.net> Paul Mackin: . . . .Secondly, saying that former Nazis (Whom W undoubted was one of) would find important roles in the post-war corporate world is not necessarily saying that the latter is full-fledgedly Nazi. . . . Yet the far left would make that connection. You might not, but the Abbie Hoffmans of the world did and continue to do so. And Against the Day is filled with favorable portraits of the Abbie Hoffmans of the Gilded Age. And it's pretty obvious that Pynchon used material from "Murdered by Capitalism" by John Ross of Trinidad, CA, one of the Abbie Hoffmans of our time: http://tinyurl.com/5hulsd From robinlandseadel at comcast.net Thu Jul 10 10:21:57 2008 From: robinlandseadel at comcast.net (robinlandseadel at comcast.net) Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2008 15:21:57 +0000 Subject: Repost: "The Big One" Message-ID: <071020081521.13593.48762915000BB4F1000035192215568884040A0B0E0A9C0B020E0402070D019D@comcast.net> Paul Mackin: The passage is a wonderful one but we must not forget that creative writers often need to make things sound more sinister than in reality they are. Can't get much more sinister in a Tarot reading than being crossed by a Tower card. It means your whole world is about to fly apart. If Pynchon is making this passage as sinister as possible than maybe he believes that Weissman's passage into the Council on Foriegn Affairs or NASA is sinister? There's always surface readings folks, take the guy at his word. . . . From fqmorris at gmail.com Thu Jul 10 10:22:50 2008 From: fqmorris at gmail.com (David Morris) Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2008 10:22:50 -0500 Subject: NP - Chainsaw Maid Message-ID: <7d461dc80807100822j1d6084a6u72a85701aa81d90f@mail.gmail.com> http://www.ebaumsworld.com/video/watch/727719/ Clatmation Zombie Gore From robinlandseadel at comcast.net Thu Jul 10 10:52:34 2008 From: robinlandseadel at comcast.net (robinlandseadel at comcast.net) Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2008 15:52:34 +0000 Subject: ATDTDA (38) 26 Rue du depart "seduced into the Futurist nosedive." Message-ID: <071020081552.19717.4876304200043D5E00004D052215568884040A0B0E0A9C0B020E0402070D019D@comcast.net> I'm thinking of the visual similarities of Futurism [paintings] and the work of Mondrian. But following that thread---cubism, Mondrian's art, the paintings of the Futurists�like the cover of the paperback edition of Against the Day: http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/41fafkIky5L._SS500_.jpg . . . ."seduced into the Futurist nosedive." takes on different meanings when perceived as a literary movement that had a big influence on James Joyce: Italian Futurism was initially a literary movement created by Filippo Tommaso Marinetti in 1909 with the manifesto Le Futurisme [1]. The intentions of this manifesto was a wake-up call to Marinetti's countrymen to make them aware that they had been 'wearing second-hand clothes for too long.' It was time for them to create a new art for themselves, forged out of the beauty of speed and a glorification of war: Art, in fact, can be nothing but violence, new art for themselves, forged out of the beauty of speed and a cruelty, and injustice. new art for themselves, forged out of the beauty of speed and a That the manifesto was first written in French and published in the Parisian newspaper Le Figaro before any of the new Futurist art existed, typified Marinetti's understanding of the power of the media to work for him and disseminate his ideas. . . . . . . .Performances of Futurist poetry were meant to outrage and wake up an audience, in a time when poetry had largely become a plaything of the idle rich. Poetry was often presented in the late nineteenth century cultured drawing rooms with wine, caviar, and a bought romantic poet with slicked-back hair: doing his best to capture the poetic affectations of the times and pretending to be an Oscar Wilde clone, complete with a dead lily. The Futurists on the other hand, acting as if they were the Vikings or Hell's Angels of Art, were intent in trashing such cultivated and stylized new art for themselves, forged out of the beauty of speed and a aesthetics completely. Their performances often ended in riots new art for themselves, forged out of the beauty of speed and a with several members of the audience in the hospital and several new art for themselves, forged out of the beauty of speed and a Futurists ending up in jail. http://www.wendtroot.com/spoetry/folder6/ng63.html Futurism (1909-1944) was perhaps the first movement in the history of art to be engineered and managed like a business. Since its beginning, Futurism was very close to the world of advertising and, like a business, promoted its product to a wide audience. For this reason, Futurism introduced the use of the manifesto as a public means to advertise its artistic philosophy, and also as a polemic weapon against the academic and conservative world. The poet F.T. Marinetti, founder of the movement, wrote in his first manifesto of February 1909, "Up to now, literature has exalted a pensive immobility, ecstasy, and sleep. We intend to exalt aggressive action, a feverish insomnia, the racer's stride, the mortal leap, the punch and the slap. We affirm that the world's magnificence has been enriched by a new beauty: the beauty of speed. . . We will destroy the museums, libraries, academies of every kind, will fight moralism, feminism, every opportunistic or utilitarian cowardice." Futurism, as opposed to Cubism, an essentially visual movement, found its roots in poetry and in a whole renovation of language, and featured the concept of the New Typography. Since 1905, Marinetti had promoted from the pages of his magazine Poesia (Poetry) the idea of verso libero (free-verse), which was intended to break the uniformity of syntax of the literature of the past. Then, just after new art for themselves, forged out of the beauty of speed and a the launch of the Futurist movement, verso libero evolved into the new art for themselves, forged out of the beauty of speed and a parole in libert� (words-in-freedom), the purpose and methodology new art for themselves, forged out of the beauty of speed and a of which were outlined in a manifesto dated 1913 and bearing the new art for themselves, forged out of the beauty of speed and a long title Destruction of Syntax/Imagination without Strings/Words new art for themselves, forged out of the beauty of speed and a -in-Freedom. In this manifesto Marinetti stated: "Futurism is grounded in the complete renewal of human sensibility that has generated our pictorial dynamism, our antigraceful music in its free, irregular rhythms, our noise-art and our new art for themselves, forged out of the beauty of speed and a words-in-freedom . . . . By the imagination without strings I mean the absolute freedom of images or analogies, expressed with unhampered words and with no connecting strings of syntax and with no punctuation." http://colophon.com/gallery/futurism/ Orpheus Puts Down Harp LOS ANGELES (PNS)�Richard M. Zhlubb, night manager of the Orpheus Theater on Melrose. . . . From richard.romeo at gmail.com Thu Jul 10 13:57:48 2008 From: richard.romeo at gmail.com (rich) Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2008 14:57:48 -0400 Subject: Larry McMurtry Message-ID: <830c13f40807101157t3e0016dbq388d9d1933c32581@mail.gmail.com> In LM's latest book titled "Books" he notes that in the mid-60s, Pynchon was broke and living in Houston and that he may have tried to get Pynchon a job--he was teaching at Rice at the time. pynchon declined apparently--he didn't wanna work in academia. LM also notes that there was a rumor that Pynchon while writing V. was reading exclusively the N section of the dictionary or encyclopedia--go figure rich From malignd at aol.com Thu Jul 10 14:54:29 2008 From: malignd at aol.com (malignd at aol.com) Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2008 15:54:29 -0400 Subject: Repost: "The Big One" In-Reply-To: <071020081123.3501.4875F115000B533D00000DAD2216557996040A0B0E0A9C0B020E0402070D019D@comcast.net> References: <071020081123.3501.4875F115000B533D00000DAD2216557996040A0B0E0A9C0B020E0402070D019D@comcast.net> Message-ID: <8CAB0DDE5B77A3C-13E8-809@MBLK-M37.sysops.aol.com> As far as Pynchon's concerned, Shell's just as much a Nazi as the rest of 'em. Which was, or course, my point:  that that is Pynchon's moral universe. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From isread at btinternet.com Fri Jul 11 01:21:01 2008 From: isread at btinternet.com (Paul Nightingale) Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2008 07:21:01 +0100 Subject: Atdtda28: Somewhere on the other side of the world, 782-783 Message-ID: <000601c8e31e$4a7fc270$df7f4750$@com> Two paragraphs, one in which the narrative sides with Kit, the other featuring Prance's "religious mania", a diatribe that is unanswered by the silent Kit. If Prance's speech is aimed at Kit, perhaps a continuation of the earlier "going round and round as usual", it seems Kit has turned his back on such local interaction; instead he favours silent contemplation of global interaction (and one might think of Latour's dismissal of any distinction between 'local' and 'global'). Consciousness is not confined to what one can see: "critters he was destined never to see ..." etc (another example of the fast-forward here). However, Prance's "mania" constructs another "connected set". He describes the return of some kind of malevolent agency ("... whatever force decides to come in ..." etc, or "... had chosen to reenter the finite world", 783). If Kit invokes 'continuity', then, Prance has opted for 'change', each borrowing from mathematical discourse to make the point. At the same time, Prance is rather more open to speculation. For Kit, "forms of life [are] a connected set" (782); whereas Prance describes the consequences of one possible course of events, ie "[a]s if something ..." etc (782-783). From isread at btinternet.com Fri Jul 11 01:26:12 2008 From: isread at btinternet.com (Paul Nightingale) Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2008 07:26:12 +0100 Subject: Atdtda28: Paralyzed for days, 783 Message-ID: <000701c8e31f$05e2f370$11a8da50$@com> Action commences, finally, with drumming; although this activity is accompanied by Kit's near paralysis. Given that the drummer(s) cannot be identified, this passage offers "the taiga inscrutable and vast" as author, or perhaps collective author. For the first time Kit is associated with "the Event", the drumming a form of representation: "... he thought he heard something familiar in it", this sense-making a way out of paralysis/inactivity. He thinks of Agdy; and the Event has already passed into folklore. This corroborates the view offered by Pavel Sergeivitch on 780, and Kit/Prance are associated with "the people who live down there". If science cannot confine the Event with explanation, or the kind of explanation that science/scientists will permit, it would appear that shamanism can. Cf. Prance's rant in the previous section (782-783) and his dismissal of shamanism on 776. From madame.brady at gmail.com Fri Jul 11 04:52:19 2008 From: madame.brady at gmail.com (Tara Brady) Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2008 10:52:19 +0100 Subject: Thomas Pynchon's Blueberry Boat Message-ID: http://www.powells.com/blog/?p=3466 There must be learned types around these parts who might do better. No? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From robinlandseadel at comcast.net Fri Jul 11 08:01:17 2008 From: robinlandseadel at comcast.net (robinlandseadel at comcast.net) Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2008 13:01:17 +0000 Subject: Thomas Pynchon's Blueberry Boat Message-ID: <071120081301.15811.4877599D0000D32B00003DC32215555884040A0B0E0A9C0B020E0402070D019D@comcast.net> . . . .sorry, it's 4:20 in the morn and there is no place I'm going to. Somehow [please don't ask how] I was transported to an office somewhere out near Pomona, the walls outgassing the intoxicating aroma associated with the free and easy use of acetone in the paint mix. There was that nagging issue of the Overlunch Estate, and somewhere out on the edge of suburbia an Intellectual property rights management lawsuit was metastasizing in better lit [and better smelling] offices further west and south. If you want a life in Hollywood, don't mess with the mouse, that Disney dude has some rough friends, if you catch my drift. Seeing as the sun had coagulated the morning's vaporous haze into something orange, dense and stinging, I decided to head out to hear the Scottsville Squirrel Barkers at the Folk Den. You'd figure a gaslit anachronism like the "Folk Den" would be a center for the dissemination and enjoyment of various plants and other interesting compounds generally frowned upon by the local enforcers of morality. The usual suspects were collected in a darkened corner, led by a short, annoyed young go-getter in a black business suit accessorised with a nod or two towards the Mystic East. His black shades warded off any potential examination into his soul, assuming he had one. On his lapel was a little silver badge inscribed with the glyph of a smaller circle resting like a snowman's head on a larger circle with something like a sidewise "S" at the bottom. I assumed it must have been a cartoon mouse, but considering all the time I spent this morning unspinning the entanglements of the Overlunch Estate and Gengis Cohen, I figured it must be projection to a certain extant. I just wrote it off as another of the days expenses that never get written down on your expense report. The small one in shades was leading a lively contingent of camp followers in some sort of contest, seeing who could nasally ingest 12 linear inches of cocaine in the least amount of time . An older gentleman with a gotee wearing a boni-fied Nehru jacket was jotting down numbers on a notepad with a stopwatch in his other hand. "MY engineer", explained the little one with the shades, "I don't go anywhere without him anymore, least since that bust in Topanga Canyon last month. Nothing like running with a dude who worked on the Manhattan Project to keep the feds off your ass." The radioactively incandescent glow of the failing sun cast magenta light on the hazy contingent of musical amateurs in the den. Somehow the four or five gents with mandolins, banjos and guitars decided to bring various large pieces of sound reinforcement gear into this tiny dive. They were working up a fluid fingerstyle rendition of the Earle Of Oxford�s March , but amplified in such a way as to sound just like the jet airliners descending to the airport runway a half mile or two down the boulevard. After a vocal bridge in five parts run through a tape delay, the curly headed one with the impish grin introduced the band. "Good evening, we're the Beef�what's that Chris?�OK! ! ! , tonight, for the first time, ladies, gentlemen and residents of North Hollywood�The Paranoids ! ! ! -------------- Original message ---------------------- From: "Tara Brady" > http://www.powells.com/blog/?p=3466 > > There must be learned types around these parts who might do better. No? From scuffling at gmail.com Fri Jul 11 08:34:27 2008 From: scuffling at gmail.com (Henry) Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2008 09:34:27 -0400 Subject: Thomas Pynchon's Blueberry Boat In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <004501c8e35a$d7fb94d0$87f2be70$@com> Hmmm. What's with the GR cover at Powell's? Nice piece! But I'll leave the learned stuff for somebody else. Henry Mu Information, Media, and Technology Consultant http://my.barackobama.com/page/community/blog/henrymu ------------------------------- From: Tara Brady http://www.powells.com/blog/?p=3466 There must be learned types around these parts who might do better. No? From markekohut at yahoo.com Fri Jul 11 08:42:26 2008 From: markekohut at yahoo.com (Mark Kohut) Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2008 06:42:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Misc. on Henry Adams and maybe TRP... Message-ID: <555684.73442.qm@web38401.mail.mud.yahoo.com> I was at an outdoor reading room during yesterday's beautiful afternoon. There were L of A. copies of Henry Adams' History of the United states. Now, we all know that Henry Adams' "Education" permeated OBAs mind back in the day and deeply influenced him. Premise: I am going to suggest that such a thorough reader/writer/thinker as OBA would have read--at least read into--other major work of writers whom he felt deeply. With that assumption, Pynchon may have read---and been influenced---by this major work of American history. So, Kute Korrespondences, inevitable because of the nature of obs and reality? OR, influences of some kind? Adams writes at length of the postal service throughout America in 1800.... 3 weeks Philly to Nashville, three times a week....over 900 'routes" within the States....which he seems to think does not raise enough money for all the service....... He loves waterways and travel via them....He writes of 'the largest frigate in the US Navy, the 'line-of-battleship-in-disguise'" ! He writes "the Saxon farmer of the 8th Century enjoyed most of the comforts known to Saxon farmers of the 18th C."...."the eorls and ceorls of Olf and Ecqbert could not read or write.....yet [their lives as lived] were "not improved by time" to the 18th Century.... You be the judge, and comments welcomed. ______________________________- Also, learned elsewhere....in "Back to the Future 3", the time travelling protagonists encounter a family named Tannen, including "Mad Dog" Tannen [who loses it when called 'mad Dog'].................. From scuffling at gmail.com Fri Jul 11 08:44:31 2008 From: scuffling at gmail.com (Henry) Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2008 09:44:31 -0400 Subject: VLP: Rivka Glachen's 'Atmospheric Disturbances' Message-ID: <004701c8e35c$40e699d0$c2b3cd70$@com> Rivka Glachen's 'Atmospheric Disturbances' International Herald Tribune http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/07/12/arts/idbriefs12D.php "Galchen's inventive narrative strategies call to mind the playful techniques of Jonathan Lethem, Franz Kafka, Primo Levi and Thomas Pynchon. ..." Sounds intriguing. Knowing this list, someone's already read it. Henry Mu Information, Media, and Technology Consultant http://my.barackobama.com/page/community/blog/henrymu From markekohut at yahoo.com Fri Jul 11 08:46:12 2008 From: markekohut at yahoo.com (Mark Kohut) Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2008 06:46:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: On Moral Equivalence Message-ID: <584077.36568.qm@web38403.mail.mud.yahoo.com> I'm sorry but I must argue that the readings here are simply wrong. Wrong for fiction. Fiction is not non-fiction grounded in fantasy or irreality. Fiction is not history judging the literal equivalence of historical actions, historical evils. Pynchon's works are NOT Nicholson Baker's "Human Smoke"--a recent non-fictional work which I think fails for large historical moral inequivalent reasons...[Mr. Baker is on Charlie Rose toninght, if interested] Moralism, first, is usually used to characterize self-righteously expressed statements judging facts or situations. In fiction, it MEANS the intrusion of such non-fictional literalism into the whole visionary world of the fiction. A moral vision is a writer's whole worldview. For a writer of fiction, that worldview is only literal in the worst fiction; irony, satire, vision of who says what, in context, enwraps it all. Pynchon's outraged [see satire as the deepest ideals frustrated by reality] linking of historical situations, historical evils and modern companies in GR and Against the Day IS the vision....by satirizing them individually yet linking them shows he does not see them as equivalent.....we cannot leave simple distinctions at home as we read; he didn't.............we have to judge why he links them, where he sees common sources..............Pynchon tries to do that (and largely succeeds in my opinion). He finds the repression of certain universal psychic realities, the structures of the modern world and the way it warps all in it leading to much of the evil in it.......... His 'moral vision' is his deep condemnations AND his moments of transcending, being human within, surviving such History. GR, passim. .....Mason AND Dixon............the whole 'spiritual' exploration in Against the Day......the whole finding of a human wholeness in pre-modern history, communities in Against the Day.... I am sorry but TRP has incorporated such "reductionism" into his vision of what is wrong with our thinking in the modern world. --- On Thu, 7/10/08, malignd at aol.com wrote: > From: malignd at aol.com > Subject: Re: Repost: "The Big One" > To: pynchon-l at waste.org > Date: Thursday, July 10, 2008, 3:54 PM > As far as Pynchon's concerned, Shell's just as much > a Nazi as the rest of 'em. > > > > > Which was, or course, my point:  that that is > Pynchon's moral universe. From robinlandseadel at comcast.net Fri Jul 11 09:16:05 2008 From: robinlandseadel at comcast.net (robinlandseadel at comcast.net) Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2008 14:16:05 +0000 Subject: On Moral Equivalence Message-ID: <071120081416.11141.48776B25000D6BC900002B852215567074040A0B0E0A9C0B020E0402070D019D@comcast.net> I'm sorry but I must argue that the readings here are simply wrong. Wrong for fiction. Fiction is not non-fiction grounded in fantasy or irreality. Fiction is not history judging the literal equivalence of historical actions, historical evils. Pynchon's works are NOT Nicholson Baker's "Human Smoke"--a recent non-fictional work which I think fails for large historical moral inequivalent reasons...[Mr. Baker is on Charlie Rose toninght, if interested] Moralism, first, is usually used to characterize self-righteously expressed statements judging facts or situations. In fiction, it MEANS the intrusion of such non-fictional literalism into the whole visionary world of the fiction. I figure that a lot of the personalities in the scenes in Dante's Inferno come from the real-life experiences of that illustrious Italian poet. We see these monsters through the eyes of a poet with an agenda. Pynchon is a poet with an agenda. Just like Dante, he's keen on karma. Karma's the rule in Pynchonland. I realize, vide his Dudeness, that you could call it Justice. But Pynchon's mind is filled with internal dialogs that merge with vectors and bell curves, the poetry and essentially Taoist nature of mathematical equations, and of nature's accounting of all things in time. Justice is the imposition of will and order. Karma's just nature doing her job. Mark: A moral vision is a writer's whole worldview. For a writer of fiction, that worldview is only literal in the worst fiction; irony, satire, vision of who says what, in context, enwraps it all. Pynchon's outraged [see satire as the deepest ideals frustrated by reality] linking of historical situations, historical evils and modern companies in GR and Against the Day IS the vision....by satirizing them individually yet linking them shows he does not see them as equivalent.....we cannot leave simple distinctions at home as we read; he didn't.............we have to judge why he links them, where he sees common sources..............Pynchon tries to do that (and largely succeeds in my opinion). He finds the repression of certain universal psychic realities, the structures of the modern world and the way it warps all in it leading to much of the evil in it.......... His 'moral vision' is his deep condemnations AND his moments of transcending, being human within, surviving such History. GR, passim. .....Mason AND Dixon............the whole 'spiritual' exploration in Against the Day......the whole finding of a human wholeness in pre-modern history, communities in Against the Day.... I am sorry but TRP has incorporated such "reductionism" into his vision of what is wrong with our thinking in the modern world. --- On Thu, 7/10/08, malignd at aol.com wrote: > From: malignd at aol.com > Subject: Re: Repost: "The Big One" > To: pynchon-l at waste.org > Date: Thursday, July 10, 2008, 3:54 PM > As far as Pynchon's concerned, Shell's just as much > a Nazi as the rest of 'em. > > > > > Which was, or course, my point: that that is > Pynchon's moral universe. From markekohut at yahoo.com Fri Jul 11 09:47:14 2008 From: markekohut at yahoo.com (Mark Kohut) Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2008 07:47:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: On Moral Equivalence In-Reply-To: <071120081416.11141.48776B25000D6BC900002B852215567074040A0B0E0A9C0B020E0402070D019D@comcast.net> Message-ID: <433726.19961.qm@web38401.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Robin writes: "I figure that a lot of the personalities in the scenes in Dante's Inferno come from the real-life experiences of that illustrious Italian poet. We see these monsters through the eyes of a poet with an agenda. Pynchon is a poet with an agenda. Just like Dante, he's keen on karma. Karma's the rule in Pynchonland. I realize, vide his Dudeness, that you could call it Justice. But Pynchon's mind is filled with internal dialogs that merge with vectors and bell curves, the poetry and essentially Taoist nature of mathematical equations, and of nature's accounting of all things in time. Justice is the imposition of will and order. Karma's just nature doing her job." And I, in my own narcissistic humility [of faux humility], am absolutely in agreement in principle with the above.........(and maybe in all the particulars as espressed)..............karma, Justice and such other themes as i mentioned, are all part of a full worldview...... Or Aren't................... Which is why TRP is a moralist not just an entertainer or ironic postmodernist, in my opinion........ --- On Fri, 7/11/08, robinlandseadel at comcast.net wrote: > From: robinlandseadel at comcast.net > Subject: Re: On Moral Equivalence > To: "P-list" > Date: Friday, July 11, 2008, 10:16 AM > I'm sorry but I must argue that the readings here are > simply wrong. > Wrong for fiction. > > Fiction is not non-fiction grounded in fantasy or > irreality. Fiction is not > history judging the literal equivalence of historical > actions, historical evils. > > Pynchon's works are NOT Nicholson Baker's > "Human Smoke"--a recent non-fictional > work which I think fails for large historical moral > inequivalent reasons...[Mr. > Baker is on Charlie Rose toninght, if interested] > > Moralism, first, is usually used to characterize > self-righteously expressed > statements judging facts or situations. In fiction, it > MEANS the intrusion > of such non-fictional literalism into the whole visionary > world of the fiction. > I figure that a lot of the personalities in the scenes in > Dante's Inferno > come from the real-life experiences of that illustrious > Italian poet. > We see these monsters through the eyes of a poet with an > agenda. > Pynchon is a poet with an agenda. Just like Dante, he's > keen on > karma. Karma's the rule in Pynchonland. I realize, vide > his > Dudeness, that you could call it Justice. But Pynchon's > mind > is filled with internal dialogs that merge with vectors and > bell curves, > the poetry and essentially Taoist nature of mathematical > equations, > and of nature's accounting of all things in time. > Justice is the > imposition of will and order. Karma's just nature doing > her job. > > > Mark: > > A moral vision is a writer's whole worldview. For a > writer of fiction, that > worldview is only literal in the worst fiction; irony, > satire, vision of who > says what, in context, enwraps it all. > > > Pynchon's outraged [see satire as the deepest ideals > frustrated by reality] > linking of historical situations, historical evils and > modern companies in > GR and Against the Day IS the vision....by satirizing them > individually yet > linking them shows he does not see them as > equivalent.....we cannot leave > simple distinctions at home as we read; he > didn't.............we have to judge > why he links them, where he sees common > sources..............Pynchon tries > to do that (and largely succeeds in my opinion). He finds > the repression of > certain universal psychic realities, the structures of the > modern world and > the way it warps all in it leading to much of the evil in > it.......... > > His 'moral vision' is his deep condemnations AND > his moments of > transcending, being human within, surviving such History. > GR, > passim. .....Mason AND Dixon............the whole > 'spiritual' > exploration in Against the Day......the whole finding of a > human > wholeness in pre-modern history, communities in Against > the Day.... > > I am sorry but TRP has incorporated such > "reductionism" into his vision of > what is wrong with our thinking in the modern world. > > > > --- On Thu, 7/10/08, malignd at aol.com > wrote: > > > From: malignd at aol.com > > Subject: Re: Repost: "The Big One" > > To: pynchon-l at waste.org > > Date: Thursday, July 10, 2008, 3:54 PM > > As far as Pynchon's concerned, Shell's just as > much > > a Nazi as the rest of 'em. > > > > > > > > > > Which was, or course, my point: that that is > > Pynchon's moral universe. From scuffling at gmail.com Fri Jul 11 09:50:49 2008 From: scuffling at gmail.com (Henry) Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2008 10:50:49 -0400 Subject: Toast, Anyone? Message-ID: <005601c8e365$82bdad90$883908b0$@com> This is one of my favorites, I must admit, and it came up on quote of the day today: I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve. - JRR Tolkien For the life of me, I can't think of any toasts in Pynch-Lit. Henry Mu Information, Media, and Technology Consultant http://my.barackobama.com/page/community/blog/henrymu From robinlandseadel at comcast.net Fri Jul 11 09:56:46 2008 From: robinlandseadel at comcast.net (robinlandseadel at comcast.net) Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2008 14:56:46 +0000 Subject: Toast, Anyone? Message-ID: <071120081456.18850.487774AE0007C1EA000049A22216548686040A0B0E0A9C0B020E0402070D019D@comcast.net> "For the life of me, I can't think of any toasts in Pynch-Lit." "Suck Hour!" screamed Ploy. From markekohut at yahoo.com Fri Jul 11 10:09:31 2008 From: markekohut at yahoo.com (Mark Kohut) Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2008 08:09:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Toast, Anyone? In-Reply-To: <071120081456.18850.487774AE0007C1EA000049A22216548686040A0B0E0A9C0B020E0402070D019D@comcast.net> Message-ID: <737124.99552.qm@web38404.mail.mud.yahoo.com> LOL....Great! --- On Fri, 7/11/08, robinlandseadel at comcast.net wrote: > From: robinlandseadel at comcast.net > Subject: Re: Toast, Anyone? > To: "P-list" > Date: Friday, July 11, 2008, 10:56 AM > "For the life of me, I can't think of any toasts in > Pynch-Lit." > > "Suck Hour!" screamed Ploy. From against.the.dave at gmail.com Fri Jul 11 10:50:16 2008 From: against.the.dave at gmail.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2008 10:50:16 -0500 Subject: A.Word.A.Day Message-ID: A.Word.A.Day with Anu Garg callipygian PRONUNCIATION: (kal-uh-PIJ-ee-uhn) MEANING: adjective: Having well-shaped buttocks. ETYMOLOGY: >From Greek calli- (beautiful) + pyge (buttocks). USAGE: "And it hasn't been lost on modern film directors that a nice set of tights can showcase the callipygian assets of a well-formed leading man." Heroes in Hosiery; South China Morning Post (Hong Kong); Jul 20, 2006. http://wordsmith.org/words/callipygian.html http://wordsmith.org/awad/ "Those dusky Afro-Scandinavian buttocks, which combine the callipygian rondure observed among the races of the Dark Continent with the taut and noble musculature of sturdy Olaf, our blond Northern cousin." --GR, Pt. I, p. 69 From robinlandseadel at comcast.net Fri Jul 11 11:01:29 2008 From: robinlandseadel at comcast.net (robinlandseadel at comcast.net) Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2008 16:01:29 +0000 Subject: A.Word.A.Day Message-ID: <071120081601.6995.487783D90003239F00001B532216548686040A0B0E0A9C0B020E0402070D019D@comcast.net> Reminds me of my ex-girlfriend. . . . -------------- Original message ---------------------- Dave Monroe:. . . .callipygian. . . . From scuffling at gmail.com Fri Jul 11 12:28:30 2008 From: scuffling at gmail.com (Henry) Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2008 13:28:30 -0400 Subject: A.Word.A.Day In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <009201c8e37b$8a869ee0$9f93dca0$@com> A-and curiously "callipygian" has nothing in common with "Calypso" (Greek: Καλυψώ, English translation: "I will conceal"), who according to Hesiod bore Odysseus two children: Nausithous and Nausinous. The island of Gozo, part of the Maltese archipelago, has a long tradition that links it with the mythical figure of Calypso. Malta, Malta, Malta. Henry Mu Information, Media, and Technology Consultant http://my.barackobama.com/page/community/blog/henrymu From against.the.dave at gmail.com Fri Jul 11 12:50:09 2008 From: against.the.dave at gmail.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2008 12:50:09 -0500 Subject: Thomas Pynchon Promotional Broadside Message-ID: For sale: Thomas Pynchon promotional broadside celebrating the appearance of Gravity's Rainbow. "DEAR THOMAS PYNCHON, WE THOUGHT YOU'D LIKE TO SEE THE FIRST REVIEWS FOR YOUR BOOK!" Single sheet, measuring 17 by 22 inches. It is illustrated in black and white with the front panel and spine of the dust jacket for the first edition of Gravity's Rainbow. In addition the broadside prints excerpts from some reviews of Thomas Pynchon's Gravity's Rainbow. Folded a few times, else fine. Same item lists on abebooks for $575. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=280244927801 From paul.mackin at verizon.net Fri Jul 11 12:55:19 2008 From: paul.mackin at verizon.net (Paul Mackin) Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2008 13:55:19 -0400 Subject: Repost: "The Big One" In-Reply-To: <071020081516.25220.487627CB000B60B0000062842215568884040A0B0E0A9C0B020E0402070D019D@comcast.net> References: <071020081516.25220.487627CB000B60B0000062842215568884040A0B0E0A9C0B020E0402070D019D@comcast.net> Message-ID: <48779E87.4000907@verizon.net> robinlandseadel at comcast.net wrote: > Paul Mackin: > . . . .Secondly, saying that former Nazis (Whom W undoubted > was one of) would find important roles in the post-war > corporate world is not necessarily saying that the latter > is full-fledgedly Nazi. . . . > > Yet the far left would make that connection. You might not, but the > Abbie Hoffmans of the world did and continue to do so. And Against > the Day is filled with favorable portraits of the Abbie Hoffmans of > the Gilded Age. And it's pretty obvious that Pynchon used material > from "Murdered by Capitalism" by John Ross of Trinidad, CA, > one of the Abbie Hoffmans of our time: > > http://tinyurl.com/5hulsd > > I thought we were talking about what the Tarot passage conveys--not the views of the "far left" (presume you mean people who blow shit up) or the "fun with the revolution" left (Abbie Hoffman). From against.the.dave at gmail.com Fri Jul 11 13:35:27 2008 From: against.the.dave at gmail.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2008 13:35:27 -0500 Subject: Thomas Pynchon Promotional Broadside In-Reply-To: <830c13f40807111125j5ff2988fx3508976d440d267b@mail.gmail.com> References: <830c13f40807111125j5ff2988fx3508976d440d267b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On 7/11/08, rich wrote: > this I just found: > > http://sweetbooks.com/p.htm > > PYNCHON, Thomas. Mason and Dixon. NY: Henry Holt, (1997). Hardbound in > dust jacket. First edition. Presentation copy inscribed by Pynchon to > William Plumley, head of the University of Charleston award committee > that chose Pynchon for their Appalachian Medallion: "For William > Plumley, With appreciation and thanks. Thomas Pynchon." TOGETHER WITH > a Typed Letter Signed from Pynchon declining the award and presenting > the book. One quarto page on Mason and Dixon letterhead dated June 23, > 1997, in full: "Dear Mr. Plumley, Regretfully, I must decline the > Appalachian Medallion...." Did anyone even know he'd been chosen for this? Then turned it down? The only directly related Google hits I get are for this book ... From richard.romeo at gmail.com Fri Jul 11 13:25:18 2008 From: richard.romeo at gmail.com (rich) Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2008 14:25:18 -0400 Subject: Thomas Pynchon Promotional Broadside In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <830c13f40807111125j5ff2988fx3508976d440d267b@mail.gmail.com> this I just found: http://sweetbooks.com/p.htm PYNCHON, Thomas. Mason and Dixon. NY: Henry Holt, (1997). Hardbound in dust jacket. First edition. Presentation copy inscribed by Pynchon to William Plumley, head of the University of Charleston award committee that chose Pynchon for their Appalachian Medallion: "For William Plumley, With appreciation and thanks. Thomas Pynchon." TOGETHER WITH a Typed Letter Signed from Pynchon declining the award and presenting the book. One quarto page on Mason and Dixon letterhead dated June 23, 1997, in full: "Dear Mr. Plumley, Regretfully, I must decline the Appalachian Medallion. Rationally or otherwise, I have a history of trying to avoid, whenever possible, all such awards. I am grateful to you for the chance to do so ahead of time, as well as for the honor, of course, of even being thought of on the same list as Eudora Welty and Robert Penn Warren. I do, however, hope that you will accept, with my thanks, the copy of Mason and Dixon enclosed. Part of the novel is set in Appalachia---I've tried in it to remain true to the spirit of the region and the people, whom I continue to admire and respect. Yours truly, Thomas Pynchon." Books signed by Pynchon seldom surface on the market and autograph material by him is among the most difficult of any living author. There have been a few known instances where he's donated a signed book to a charity auction, but genuine presentation copies of his books are truly rare, and rarer still is Pynchon correspondence---and this letter is especially nice. Along with the literary references and mention of his own book, Pynchon explains his ethos of anonymity that has caused him to studiously avoid awards, interviews, and photographs throughout his career. A search of auction records shows no evidence of a Pynchon letter ever having appeared at auction. A superb pair of Pynchon items, the only inscribed book with a presentation letter that we know of. Fine. SKB-13851 $37500 Rich On Fri, Jul 11, 2008 at 1:50 PM, Dave Monroe wrote: > For sale: Thomas Pynchon promotional broadside celebrating the > appearance of Gravity's Rainbow. "DEAR THOMAS PYNCHON, WE THOUGHT > YOU'D LIKE TO SEE THE FIRST REVIEWS FOR YOUR BOOK!" Single sheet, > measuring 17 by 22 inches. It is illustrated in black and white with > the front panel and spine of the dust jacket for the first edition of > Gravity's Rainbow. In addition the broadside prints excerpts from some > reviews of Thomas Pynchon's Gravity's Rainbow. Folded a few times, > else fine. Same item lists on abebooks for $575. > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=280244927801 > From michael.lee.bailey at gmail.com Fri Jul 11 14:03:27 2008 From: michael.lee.bailey at gmail.com (Michael Bailey) Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2008 15:03:27 -0400 Subject: Atdtda28: Paralyzed for days, 783 In-Reply-To: <000701c8e31f$05e2f370$11a8da50$@com> References: <000701c8e31f$05e2f370$11a8da50$@com> Message-ID: On 7/11/08, Paul Nightingale wrote: > Action commences, finally, with drumming; although this activity is > accompanied by Kit's near paralysis. Given that the drummer(s) cannot be > identified, this passage offers "the taiga inscrutable and vast" as author, > or perhaps collective author. For the first time Kit is associated with "the > Event", the drumming a form of representation: "... he thought he heard > something familiar in it", probably a long stretch, but I'm feeling some parallels between the drumming on the taiga and "Kieselguhr's" bombings... as background for different stages of Kit's life or maybe it's the pink tabs... From michael.lee.bailey at gmail.com Fri Jul 11 14:12:09 2008 From: michael.lee.bailey at gmail.com (Michael Bailey) Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2008 15:12:09 -0400 Subject: Repost: "The Big One" In-Reply-To: <071020081123.3501.4875F115000B533D00000DAD2216557996040A0B0E0A9C0B020E0402070D019D@comcast.net> References: <071020081123.3501.4875F115000B533D00000DAD2216557996040A0B0E0A9C0B020E0402070D019D@comcast.net> Message-ID: On 7/10/08, robinlandseadel at comcast.net wrote: > David Payne: > Hold on -- can you expound on what you mean by "[I] would > > point to Weissmann's tarot as the narrator's true feelings on > the subject"? very contrarian view steals over me now & again... that Pynchon is actually rooting for the Weissmann camp... that he's *glad* we shall have to look "high, not low" for him (W, that is) this possibility percolates nicely through all my readings and makes them sinister... then again, this stems from a paranoia I learned (or at least honed) at the hands or under the arch of GR From markekohut at yahoo.com Fri Jul 11 14:38:46 2008 From: markekohut at yahoo.com (Mark Kohut) Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2008 12:38:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Thomas Pynchon Promotional Broadside In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <564900.56844.qm@web38402.mail.mud.yahoo.com> My guess here is that this prize, like many in the book/literary world, is decided BEFORE the award date---unlike Academy Awards, Pulitzer Prizes and National book Awards----and the writer is notified, often thru his publisher. You can see that Pynchon says he was glad to be notified in advance but he won't accept. Therefore, they must have chosen another writer's book. There are some literary Prizes in which it is necessary to accept---or show up and accept---- All the stuff I've read on the Nobel by the way says that the Committee now wants that ever since Sartre declined it in the 60s.......they talk to the possibiles in advance these days................ so, it is possible TRP already won the Nobel invisibly, so to speak, and we might never know or not until someone writes their Swedish memoirs. (I have occasionally wondered if Elfrede Jellinek, Pynchon's German translator of GR, at least, was a 'second choice' when TRP declined.) --- On Fri, 7/11/08, Dave Monroe wrote: > From: Dave Monroe > Subject: Re: Thomas Pynchon Promotional Broadside > To: "rich" > Cc: "pynchon -l" > Date: Friday, July 11, 2008, 2:35 PM > On 7/11/08, rich wrote: > > this I just found: > > > > http://sweetbooks.com/p.htm > > > > PYNCHON, Thomas. Mason and Dixon. NY: Henry Holt, > (1997). Hardbound in > > dust jacket. First edition. Presentation copy > inscribed by Pynchon to > > William Plumley, head of the University of Charleston > award committee > > that chose Pynchon for their Appalachian Medallion: > "For William > > Plumley, With appreciation and thanks. Thomas > Pynchon." TOGETHER WITH > > a Typed Letter Signed from Pynchon declining the award > and presenting > > the book. One quarto page on Mason and Dixon > letterhead dated June 23, > > 1997, in full: "Dear Mr. Plumley, Regretfully, I > must decline the > > Appalachian Medallion...." > > Did anyone even know he'd been chosen for this? Then > turned it down? > The only directly related Google hits I get are for this > book ... From markekohut at yahoo.com Fri Jul 11 14:53:29 2008 From: markekohut at yahoo.com (Mark Kohut) Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2008 12:53:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Thomas Pynchon Promotional Broadside In-Reply-To: <564900.56844.qm@web38402.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <805267.12605.qm@web38403.mail.mud.yahoo.com> My online research seems to indicate that this award is presented irregularly, not always for fiction and that no award was given in 1997. --- On Fri, 7/11/08, Mark Kohut wrote: > From: Mark Kohut > Subject: Re: Thomas Pynchon Promotional Broadside > To: "pynchon -l" > Date: Friday, July 11, 2008, 3:38 PM > My guess here is that this prize, like many in the > book/literary world, > is decided BEFORE the award date---unlike Academy Awards, > Pulitzer Prizes > and National book Awards----and the writer is notified, > often thru his publisher. > You can see that Pynchon says he was glad to be notified in > advance but he won't accept. > Therefore, they must have chosen another writer's book. > > There are some literary Prizes in which it is necessary to > accept---or show up and accept---- > > All the stuff I've read on the Nobel by the way says > that the Committee now wants that ever since Sartre > declined it in the 60s.......they talk to the possibiles in > advance these days................ > so, it is possible TRP already won the Nobel invisibly, so > to speak, and we might never know or not until someone > writes their Swedish memoirs. > > (I have occasionally wondered if Elfrede Jellinek, > Pynchon's German translator of GR, at least, was a > 'second choice' when TRP declined.) > > > --- On Fri, 7/11/08, Dave Monroe > wrote: > > > From: Dave Monroe > > Subject: Re: Thomas Pynchon Promotional Broadside > > To: "rich" > > Cc: "pynchon -l" > > Date: Friday, July 11, 2008, 2:35 PM > > On 7/11/08, rich > wrote: > > > this I just found: > > > > > > http://sweetbooks.com/p.htm > > > > > > PYNCHON, Thomas. Mason and Dixon. NY: Henry Holt, > > (1997). Hardbound in > > > dust jacket. First edition. Presentation copy > > inscribed by Pynchon to > > > William Plumley, head of the University of > Charleston > > award committee > > > that chose Pynchon for their Appalachian > Medallion: > > "For William > > > Plumley, With appreciation and thanks. Thomas > > Pynchon." TOGETHER WITH > > > a Typed Letter Signed from Pynchon declining the > award > > and presenting > > > the book. One quarto page on Mason and Dixon > > letterhead dated June 23, > > > 1997, in full: "Dear Mr. Plumley, > Regretfully, I > > must decline the > > > Appalachian Medallion...." > > > > Did anyone even know he'd been chosen for this? > Then > > turned it down? > > The only directly related Google hits I get are for > this > > book ... From paul.mackin at verizon.net Fri Jul 11 15:13:15 2008 From: paul.mackin at verizon.net (Paul Mackin) Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2008 16:13:15 -0400 Subject: Repost: "The Big One" In-Reply-To: References: <071020081123.3501.4875F115000B533D00000DAD2216557996040A0B0E0A9C0B020E0402070D019D@comcast.net> Message-ID: <4877BEDB.9060503@verizon.net> Michael Bailey wrote: > On 7/10/08, robinlandseadel at comcast.net wrote: > >> David Payne: >> Hold on -- can you expound on what you mean by "[I] would >> >> point to Weissmann's tarot as the narrator's true feelings on >> the subject"? >> > > > very contrarian view steals over me now & again... > that Pynchon is actually rooting for the Weissmann camp... > that he's *glad* we shall have to look "high, not low" for him (W, that is) > > this possibility percolates nicely through all my readings and makes > them sinister... > > then again, this stems from a paranoia I learned > (or at least honed) at the hands or under the arch of GR > > > Perhaps the tarot passage is just one more iteration of the End of Romanticism. In which novel's most fabulous character aims himself (his lover actually but that's only a detail) for the Stars, but ends up in a Boring Old Board Room. Remember who the favorite poet was. I recommend reading as little morality into Pynchon as humanly possible. I prefer to seek out the SINISTER . . . . From malignd at aol.com Fri Jul 11 16:18:29 2008 From: malignd at aol.com (malignd at aol.com) Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2008 17:18:29 -0400 Subject: Repost: "The Big One" In-Reply-To: <4877BEDB.9060503@verizon.net> Message-ID: <8CAB1B2CC606104-1488-2D96@WEBMAIL-MC03.sysops.aol.com> <> Very little reading into is called for. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From markekohut at yahoo.com Fri Jul 11 18:48:06 2008 From: markekohut at yahoo.com (Mark Kohut) Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2008 16:48:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Repost: "The Big One" In-Reply-To: <8CAB1B2CC606104-1488-2D96@WEBMAIL-MC03.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <369841.92645.qm@web38403.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Yeahp, it's all there; no need to read into it is embedded in (almost) every word...... Every character's attitudes; the meaning of every scene; the vision of History; the vision of being fully human....all are a writer's 'moral vision'... As with other great or near-(but failed)-great writers. --- On Fri, 7/11/08, malignd at aol.com wrote: > From: malignd at aol.com > Subject: Re: Repost: "The Big One" > To: pynchon-l at waste.org > Date: Friday, July 11, 2008, 5:18 PM > < as humanly possible. >> > > > > > Very little reading into is called for. From markekohut at yahoo.com Fri Jul 11 18:56:27 2008 From: markekohut at yahoo.com (Mark Kohut) Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2008 16:56:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Pynchon sighting Message-ID: <542099.12910.qm@web38406.mail.mud.yahoo.com> A friend of mine in Chicago went to hear Salman Rushdie read from his latest book. He seemed to be bouyed by just having learned that Midnight's Children was voted the Best of the Bookers.... Then she wrote me this: ",,,when asked about the literary influence of Calvino and Pynchon, he admitted to being a “Pynchonista” and said, among other things, that he had actually met him once."........... I'll bet it was when he was 'under the fatwa' and Pynchon lived like he was/is. Rushdie did one of the most positive mainstream reviews of "Vineland". has mentioned GR in interviews.... From markekohut at yahoo.com Fri Jul 11 19:18:48 2008 From: markekohut at yahoo.com (Mark Kohut) Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2008 17:18:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: still stuck in 1910... Message-ID: <130901.19626.qm@web38404.mail.mud.yahoo.com> "when the music stopped"...as we remember. I have learned two more 1910 details. William James, leading philosopher of chance died...(but that can't be it) But this: "The "point de repere", usually and conveniently taken, as the starting-point of modern poetry, is the group denominated 'imagist' in London about 1910"---T. S. Eliot, American Literature and the American Language, 1953. Q:the music of poetry that rhymed stopped.....for the poetry of images that did not????? From markekohut at yahoo.com Fri Jul 11 19:20:27 2008 From: markekohut at yahoo.com (Mark Kohut) Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2008 17:20:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Can't recover Bekah's long good post Message-ID: <217299.39717.qm@web38408.mail.mud.yahoo.com> but I did want to answer yes imho to her question about whether Frank and Jesse were named allusively referring the James boys. From markekohut at yahoo.com Fri Jul 11 19:34:40 2008 From: markekohut at yahoo.com (Mark Kohut) Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2008 17:34:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: still stuck in 1910...Refined phrasing In-Reply-To: <130901.19626.qm@web38404.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <201590.48275.qm@web38408.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Not so much poetry that rhymed but rythmic, metrically standard poetry.... "the music"??? --- On Fri, 7/11/08, Mark Kohut wrote: > From: Mark Kohut > Subject: still stuck in 1910... > To: "pynchon -l" > Date: Friday, July 11, 2008, 8:18 PM > "when the music stopped"...as we remember. > > I have learned two more 1910 details. William James, > leading philosopher of chance died...(but that can't be > it) > > But this: "The "point de repere", usually > and conveniently taken, as the starting-point of modern > poetry, is the group denominated 'imagist' in > London about 1910"---T. S. Eliot, American Literature > and the American Language, 1953. > > Q:the music of poetry that rhymed stopped.....for the > poetry of images that did not????? From against.the.dave at gmail.com Fri Jul 11 20:26:10 2008 From: against.the.dave at gmail.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2008 20:26:10 -0500 Subject: Nazi photos reveal devastation of WWII Allied bombing raids on Germany Message-ID: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/germany/2279721/Nazi-photos-reveal-devastation-of-WWII-Allied-bombing-raids-on-Germany.html From paul.mackin at verizon.net Fri Jul 11 23:52:33 2008 From: paul.mackin at verizon.net (Paul Mackin) Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2008 00:52:33 -0400 Subject: Repost: "The Big One" In-Reply-To: <8CAB1B2CC606104-1488-2D96@WEBMAIL-MC03.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CAB1B2CC606104-1488-2D96@WEBMAIL-MC03.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <48783891.9000806@verizon.net> malignd at aol.com wrote: > > < possible. >> > > > Very little reading into is called for. > In which case I would recommend doing some UNreading OUT. Reader nullification, as it were. Mickey Messer sez, First the beefsteak, then the moral. Why not, First the beefsteak, skip the moral. The main course is filling enough. P. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > The Famous, the Infamous, the Lame - in your browser. Get the TMZ > Toolbar Now > ! From lorentzen at hotmail.de Sat Jul 12 06:24:41 2008 From: lorentzen at hotmail.de (Kai Frederik Lorentzen) Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2008 13:24:41 +0200 Subject: Nazi photos reveal devastation of WWII Allied bombing raids on Germany In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: "Später, zwischen Mixed Pickles und Corned Beef, rückte er ein Gramm Koks raus und ließ Kuhl an seinem Glück teilhaben. 'Vom Oktoberfest!' Es ging schon fast auf halb neun Uhr zu: Im Fernsehen lief ein Streifen mit dem 'ratpack': Frankie, Sammy Davis Jr. und Dean 'Mean' Martin brachen in irgendein Nazigefängnis ein und aus ... und legten dabei Hunderte von SS-Wachen um. Eddie, der Philosoph, nannte den Film einen bewussten Akt von 'Geschichtsfälschung'. 'Die Krauts sind die einzigen, die sich das gefallen lassen', sagte er. 'Der Film ist trotzdem gut', beharrte Kuhl. 'Ich kenne den Film', sagte Eddie, 'Sinatra entkommt mit dem U-Boot. He, sieh mal, die Wachen rennen genauso wie die 'stormtroopers' in 'Star Wars'. Sie haben diesen Watschelgang drauf, als wären sie nicht richtig im Kopf oder hätten nie laufen gelernt'. 'Na und? Was soll an einem Film, der 185 Millionen Dollar eingespielt hat, verkehrt sein?' Kuhl wollte sich Sinatra nicht madig machen lassen. 'Ich steh auf Kriminelle. Sieh dir Frankie an. Wenn ihm ein Reporter auf die Nerven geht, lässt er ihn einfach zusammenschlagen. Das bisschen Schmerzensgeld zahlt der mit links'. Eddie ließ nicht locker. Nach dem Abendessen entschuldigte er sich wieder einmal förmlich für den Bombenkrieg der Air Force gegen die Frankfurter Zivilbevölkerung und schob die ganze Schuld auf die elende RAF und Bomber-Harris, der die Amerikaner erst auf diesen Gedanken gebracht hätte. 'Hier, schenk ich dir', sagte er schließlich und drängte Kuhl das restliche Koks auf, 'Wiedergutmachung'. 'Mein Gott, war doch halb so schlimm'. Kuhl versuchte abzuwiegeln, aber steckte es ein." (Thor Kunkel: Das Schwarzlicht-Terrarium. Reinbek bei Hamburg 2000: Rowohlt, pp. 459f.) Ultra-Abnormal-Super-Low: KFL -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From robinlandseadel at comcast.net Sat Jul 12 07:53:29 2008 From: robinlandseadel at comcast.net (robinlandseadel at comcast.net) Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2008 12:53:29 +0000 Subject: Repost: "The Big One" Message-ID: <071220081253.18729.4878A9490008A70E000049292216549976040A0B0E0A9C0B020E0402070D019D@comcast.net> Paul Mackin: I thought we were talking about what the Tarot passage conveys--not the views of the "far left" (presume you mean people who blow shit up) or the "fun with the revolution" left (Abbie Hoffman). Yes, it does seem like we have traversed quite far from the original post and my original intent. Something I have yet to hear mentioned here: What if �Against the Day � turns out to be �The Big One�, the one that ties it all together? I know that right now and for most of you, that's heresy. Heresy is huge in Pynchon's world, something I've been tracking for some time now. I read Gravity's Rainbow fairly obsessively between 1980 and 1983, throwing Moby Dick and Ulysses [Joyce] into the mix, working from the assumption that there was kinship twixt these books. Saw the amazing film version of Gunter Grass "The Tin Drum" at the time. Read Gravity's Rainbow the first time while living on the site of the "Northern" [Novato California] Renaissance Faire. Fortune tellers and crafts folk of all sorts lived on and hung out at the site. It was California's "Zone." Lotsa underground everything was passing through Ron & Phyllis love childe. LIke the remnants of Owsley's band. R.D. Thomas�Bob Thomas�the first music director of the Renaissance Faire was the artist responsible for the album art of "Live Dead.", cooking up Grateful Dead's iconic little bears on the side. He had lots of other interesting responsibilities "back in the day": http://www.deaddisc.com/disc/Live_Dead.htm Bob was at the center of a circle of buddies who hung out at the Faire. I remember Bob Thomas' words to me prior to my heading towards Livermore Labs for a massive anti-nuclear protest and mass arrest�"Walk slowly and drink plenty of water." That was 1983. Context is everything. Did I also mention all the card readers at the Faire? The Gypsy carts? Again, if the State of California ever had a "Zone", the Ren Faire was it. "Der Platz" was the Muhlla's Coffe shop, where Osbie Feel and S�ure Bummer can be found smoking Lebanese Hash and drinking Don Brown's mud while belly dancers twirl in the background. All that's missing is Anton Karas playing the "Third Man" theme. But the gypsy band play for the girl lifting her three skirts all at once will do just fine. Context is everything. I looked at the first press release for "Against the Day", noted the time frame and places on the map, put two and two together and realized that the time frame easily covered a period of time of great expansion of interest in all things metaphysical, particularly hidden insights from the "Mystic East." That would be the rise of the Theosophists. Following that the Golden Dawn appeared [sorry,that's how the history goes]. Crowley, in a Promethean move that predictably burned his ass real good, split off from the G.D., joined forces with the German O.T.O. and did a number of other interesting things to insure that his face would appear in the press daily, inspiring all sorts of shadowy subtexts for mystery writers to play with. What's worth noting here regarding OBA is Weissman's Tarot in Gravity's Rainbow. Whatever you might think of the Tarot, OBA takes it seriously enough to make a believer out of me, G-D's honest truth. Steven Weisenburger's "A Gravity's Rainbow Companion" effectively deciphers many of Pynchon's references to Ceremonial Magick. They're scattered throughout Gravity's Rainbow, sometimes with such density that it's easy, like Miles,to trip over them. When I saw Pynchon's descriptive blurb for "Against the Day" I noted a few obvious reference points: "Characters stop what they're doing to sing what are for the most part stupid songs. Strange and weird sexual practices take place. Obscure languages are spoken, not always idiomatically. Contrary-to-fact occurrences occur. Maybe it's not the world, but with a minor adjustment or two it's what the world might be." Pynchon's previous book�Mason & Dixon�was rife with olde metephysical language, Vineland seemed in many ways one long zen koan, even more Road-Runner Cartoons in blank verse. Ah, but Gravity's Rainbow [think Leporello's big aria from Don Giovanni, Pynchon did] is incredibly dense with cross reference with the inner teachings of ceremonial magic, in particular the Golden Dawn. So, when I saw those dates and the locations and the cast of characters: "Anarchists, balloonists, gamblers, corporate tycoons, drug enthusiasts, innocents and decadents and stage magicians, spies, dectectives, adventuresses, and hired guns. There are cameo appearances by Nkola Tesla, Bela Lugosi, and Groucho Marx." . . . . my mind registered "Gravity's Rainbow Backstory." In terms of tying together the threads that I've been persuing in Pynchon's books�and I really did read them all, you know, one over 50 times�"Against the Day" turned out to be "The Big One". It may not be your cup of tea, you probably find it too long, too 'joke-y', too spread out, too much to keep up with, profoundly boring and so on. But for me it illuminates "Gravity's Rainbow." When I first wrote the post, I was taking an educated guess as to what the content might be of a book that I did not have access to. As it turns out, "Against the Day" includes Crystal Magic, the Theosophists and the search for Shambahala, old fashioned stuff from Bulgaria [& even cooler�he links the musical traditions of that region all the way back to Orpheus in the process teaching us the "Pythagorean way of knowledge"] , the T.W.I.T. with A.E. Waite a few blocks away, Psychic readings, riffs on Tibetan Buddhism, Shamans with crystal skulls and peyote: the only thing that's missing is Shirley Maclaine in a Morrocan bernoose and cowl, advertising for the "Psychic Hotline." It's all there. That's my initial point. As regards Weissman, for me he is the walking moral black hole of GR, I find nothing even vaguely romantic about him. The thought that he, once routinized by "The System", manages to slither his way into whatever high-end post he ends up in the states hockets just fine into Shell = Nazi. When I read Weissmann's Tarot my reaction is just like my reaction concerning any news involving Karl Rove�"He's really getting away with this shit, isn't he?" I don't think any of us know where "White Man" ends and "They" begin. From joeallonby at gmail.com Sat Jul 12 10:09:09 2008 From: joeallonby at gmail.com (Joe Allonby) Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2008 10:09:09 -0500 Subject: Pynchon sighting In-Reply-To: <542099.12910.qm@web38406.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <542099.12910.qm@web38406.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: The NYT Book Review had Rushdie review Vineland. I thought it was a nice little in-joke: author in hiding reviews book by author in hiding. On Fri, Jul 11, 2008 at 6:56 PM, Mark Kohut wrote: > A friend of mine in Chicago went to hear Salman Rushdie read from his > latest book. He seemed to be bouyed by just having learned that Midnight's > Children was voted the Best of the Bookers.... > > Then she wrote me this: ",,,when asked about the literary influence of > Calvino and Pynchon, he admitted to being a "Pynchonista" and said, among > other things, that he had actually met him once."........... > > I'll bet it was when he was 'under the fatwa' and Pynchon > lived like he was/is. > > Rushdie did one of the most positive mainstream reviews of "Vineland". has > mentioned GR in interviews.... > > > > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From paul.mackin at verizon.net Sat Jul 12 10:08:01 2008 From: paul.mackin at verizon.net (Paul Mackin) Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2008 11:08:01 -0400 Subject: Repost: "The Big One" In-Reply-To: <071220081253.18729.4878A9490008A70E000049292216549976040A0B0E0A9C0B020E0402070D019D@comcast.net> References: <071220081253.18729.4878A9490008A70E000049292216549976040A0B0E0A9C0B020E0402070D019D@comcast.net> Message-ID: <4878C8D1.3070308@verizon.net> On what Robin calls his initial point, I for one do not find anything wrong with calling AtD Pynchon's Big One. It is Big, the biggest, and much of the writing is as good as it gets. My general view is that somewhere between Lot 49 and GR, Pynchon discovered how to write really well, and that skill never lets him down. I just didn't enjoy reading AtD as much as GR. Maybe GR was more sinister (to use Mike's word). For me it was better. I personally don't GET why everything in P's oeuvre needs to be tied together in AtD. On the topic of Spiritualism or the Metaphysical (in one sense of that word) that Robin emphasizes so much, I liked the topic's coverage in GR better. As regards Weissmann, it's true, his code of conduct is a little dicey. To appreciate W's worth, we readers must assume (for literary purposes only I'd advise) a "beyond good and evil" stance. Weissmann lives by passion, not reason or morality in the Christian sense. He IS supremely Romantic. Of course W's romanticism doesn't lie in his ending up in an American boardroom. That anti-romantic outcome is the irony of it all. I'm being a little heretical I realize, but as Robin sez Pynchon is into heresy. Actually writers HAVE to be heretical. Why else bother. P. robinlandseadel at comcast.net wrote: > Paul Mackin: > I thought we were talking about what the Tarot passage > conveys--not the views of the "far left" (presume you > mean people who blow shit up) or the "fun with the > revolution" left (Abbie Hoffman). > > Yes, it does seem like we have traversed quite far from the original > post and my original intent. > > Something I have yet to hear mentioned here: > What if “Against the Day “ turns out to be “The Big One”, > the one that ties it all together? > > I know that right now and for most of you, that's heresy. > > (big omissions because the post was getting too lond) > That's my initial point. > > As regards Weissman, for me he is the walking moral black hole > of GR, I find nothing even vaguely romantic about him. The thought > that he, once routinized by "The System", manages to slither his > way into whatever high-end post he ends up in the states hockets > just fine into Shell = Nazi. When I read Weissmann's Tarot my > reaction is just like my reaction concerning any news involving > Karl Rove—"He's really getting away with this shit, isn't he?" > > I don't think any of us know where "White Man" ends and "They" begin. > > > From against.the.dave at gmail.com Sat Jul 12 11:02:34 2008 From: against.the.dave at gmail.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2008 11:02:34 -0500 Subject: Pynchon sighting In-Reply-To: References: <542099.12910.qm@web38406.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On 7/12/08, Joe Allonby wrote: > The NYT Book Review had Rushdie review Vineland. I thought it was a nice > little in-joke: author in hiding reviews book by author in hiding. > > On Fri, Jul 11, 2008 at 6:56 PM, Mark Kohut wrote: > > > Rushdie did one of the most positive mainstream reviews of "Vineland". has > mentioned GR in interviews.... http://www.nytimes.com/books/97/05/18/reviews/pynchon-vineland.html http://www.themodernword.com/pynchon/review_nyt_vineland.html From robinlandseadel at comcast.net Sat Jul 12 11:13:30 2008 From: robinlandseadel at comcast.net (robinlandseadel at comcast.net) Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2008 16:13:30 +0000 Subject: Pynchon sighting Message-ID: <071220081613.23622.4878D82A000D489200005C462215555884040A0B0E0A9C0B020E0402070D019D@comcast.net> From: "Still Crazy After All These Years" The New York Times 14 January 1990 By Salman Rushdie . . . .Other things, too, have remained constant in the Pynchonian universe, where these are days of miracle and wonder, like ''Doonesbury'' written by Duke instead of Garry Trudeau, and the paranoia runs high because behind the heavy scenes and bad trips and Karmic Adjustments move the shadowy invisible forces, the true Masters of the Universe, ''the unrelenting forces that leaned ever after . . . into Time's wind, impassive in pursuit, usually gaining, the faceless predators . . . [who] had simply persisted, stone-humorless, beyond cause and effect, rejecting all attempts to bargain or accommodate, following through pools of night where nothing else moved wrongs forgotten by all but the direly possessed, continuing as a body to refuse to be bought off for any but the full price, which they had never named.'' That's what we're up against, folks, and what Mr. Pynchon used to set against it in the old days was entropy, seen as a slow, debauched, never-ending party, a perpetual coming-down, shapeless and meaningless and therefore unshaped and uncontrolled: freedom is chaos, he told us, but so is destruction, and that's the high wire, walk it if you can. And now here we are in ''Vineland,'' and the entropy's still flowing, but there's something new to report, some faint possibility of redemption, some fleeting hints of happiness and grace. Thomas Pynchon, like Paul Simon's girl in New York City, who calls herself the Human Trampoline, is bouncing into Graceland. Grace is the difference between pre- and post-GR Pynchon. From against.the.dave at gmail.com Sat Jul 12 11:20:07 2008 From: against.the.dave at gmail.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2008 11:20:07 -0500 Subject: Neal Stephenson lecture on whether genres matter anymore Message-ID: Here's a 40-minute talk that Neal Stephenson gave to Gresham College in London last May, discussing the nature of "literary genres" and why these distinctions are melting away.... http://www.boingboing.net/2008/07/11/neal-stephenson-lect.html From robinlandseadel at comcast.net Sat Jul 12 11:23:27 2008 From: robinlandseadel at comcast.net (robinlandseadel at comcast.net) Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2008 16:23:27 +0000 Subject: Pynchon sighting Message-ID: <071220081623.14303.4878DA7F000930FF000037DF2215555884040A0B0E0A9C0B020E0402070D019D@comcast.net> From: "Still Crazy After All These Years" The New York Times 14 January 1990 By Salman Rushdie . . . .Other things, too, have remained constant in the Pynchonian universe, where these are days of miracle and wonder, like ''Doonesbury'' written by Duke instead of Garry Trudeau, and the paranoia runs high because behind the heavy scenes and bad trips and Karmic Adjustments move the shadowy invisible forces, the true Masters of the Universe, ''the unrelenting forces that leaned ever after . . . into Time's wind, impassive in pursuit, usually gaining, the faceless predators . . . [who] had simply persisted, stone-humorless, beyond cause and effect, rejecting all attempts to bargain or accommodate, following through pools of night where nothing else moved wrongs forgotten by all but the direly possessed, continuing as a body to refuse to be bought off for any but the full price, which they had never named.'' That's what we're up against, folks, and what Mr. Pynchon used to set against it in the old days was entropy, seen as a slow, debauched, never-ending party, a perpetual coming-down, shapeless and meaningless and therefore unshaped and uncontrolled: freedom is chaos, he told us, but so is destruction, and that's the high wire, walk it if you can. And now here we are in ''Vineland,'' and the entropy's still flowing, but there's something new to report, some faint possibility of redemption, some fleeting hints of happiness and grace. Thomas Pynchon, like Paul Simon's girl in New York City, who calls herself the Human Trampoline, is bouncing into Graceland. . . . Grace is the difference between pre- and post-GR Pynchon. From robinlandseadel at comcast.net Sat Jul 12 11:24:13 2008 From: robinlandseadel at comcast.net (robinlandseadel at comcast.net) Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2008 16:24:13 +0000 Subject: Repost: "The Big One" Message-ID: <071220081624.15646.4878DAAD0009513F00003D1E2215555884040A0B0E0A9C0B020E0402070D019D@comcast.net> Paul Mackin: I just didn't enjoy reading AtD as much as GR. Maybe GR was more sinister (to use Mike's word). For me it was better. I really don't have a problem with that. That word "Sinister" is well worth looking at in the context of Magic, Religion & Heresy sinister definition sin�is�ter adjective ARCHAIC on, to, or toward the left-hand side; left HERALDRY on the left side of a shield (the right as seen by the viewer) threatening harm, evil, or misfortune; ominous; portentous sinister storm clouds wicked, evil, or dishonest, esp. in some dark, mysterious way a sinister plot most unfavorable or unfortunate; disastrous met a sinister fate Etymology: ME sinistre < L sinister, left-hand, or unlucky (side), orig. lucky (side) < IE base *sene-, to prepare, achieve > . . . . . .more favorable: early Roman augurs faced south, with the east (lucky side) to the left, but the Greeks (followed by later Romans) faced north Sinister" = "The Left Hand Path": http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Left-Hand_Path_and_Right-Hand_Path P: I personally don't GET why everything in P's oeuvre needs to be tied together in AtD. Me neither, and yet it is. OBA seeks interconnection everywhere. "Everything Connects." On the topic of Spiritualism or the Metaphysical (in one sense of that word) that Robin emphasizes so much, I liked the topic's coverage in GR better. The "Sinister" aspects rise to the surface in GR, it is his vision of hell, you know. And for many, understandably, "Sinister" is what Pynchon is all about, Lamont Cranston is one of the author's voices that folks are most attracted to. That "Sinister" literary tone color, that particular timbre is what makes Pynchon worth reading for many of his readers. Though there's plenty of left-handed activity going down in "Against the Day", the Narrator's Tone is the lightest of any of his books. Considering that one of the central topicks is light, we should not be too suprised. . . . .That anti-romantic outcome is the irony of it all. I'm being a little heretical I realize, but as Robin sez Pynchon is into heresy. Actually writers HAVE to be heretical. Why else bother. Yes, true. Pynchon pulls a Randy Newman in many of GR's passages, trying to get us inside the heads and hearts of monsters. Looking at the Pynchon family history, Heresy is central. It's a major subplot in the story of the British establishment of Colonies in "The New World," the William Pynchon/Slothrop story. From kipend at gmail.com Sat Jul 12 13:47:49 2008 From: kipend at gmail.com (David Kipen) Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2008 14:47:49 -0400 Subject: Pondering an M&D road trip... Message-ID: <3e91a77a0807121147p6a908eeel5164c95453c7922a@mail.gmail.com> Any of you ever try to trace Charles and Jeremiah's footsteps? Besides Himself, natch... All finest, David -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From scuffling at gmail.com Sat Jul 12 18:07:51 2008 From: scuffling at gmail.com (Henry) Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2008 19:07:51 -0400 Subject: Couples Tried in Essex for Pig Message-ID: <001501c8e474$1ccebff0$566c3fd0$@com> LONDON (AFP) - A bizarre ritual dating back to the 12th century in which the couple who can prove to a mock-court that they have the happiest marriage wins half a pig takes place today, Saturday, July 12. http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/lifestylebritainmarriageoffbeat;_ylt=AsiLuThmD3G ow_sr59RhkAMeO7gF Henry Mu Information, Media, and Technology Consultant http://my.barackobama.com/page/community/blog/henrymu From against.the.dave at gmail.com Sat Jul 12 23:10:49 2008 From: against.the.dave at gmail.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2008 23:10:49 -0500 Subject: The Samuel Johnson Sound Bite Page Message-ID: http://www.samueljohnson.com/ "How is it that we hear the loudest yelps for liberty among the drivers of negroes?" http://www.samueljohnson.com/popular.html From dpayne1912 at hotmail.com Sun Jul 13 02:31:35 2008 From: dpayne1912 at hotmail.com (David Payne) Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2008 07:31:35 +0000 Subject: Pondering an M&D road trip... In-Reply-To: <3e91a77a0807121147p6a908eeel5164c95453c7922a@mail.gmail.com> References: <3e91a77a0807121147p6a908eeel5164c95453c7922a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 12 Jul 2008 (14:47:49 -0400), David Kipend (kipend at gmail.com) wrote: > Any of you ever try to trace Charles and Jeremiah's footsteps? Besides Himself, natch... There are two different trips that you could plan: tracing C & J, or tracing TRP tracing C & J. If you are interested in tracing TRP tracing C & J (in the US), I'd recommend stopping in at these libraries, which I have, unfortunately, only been able to visit on the web: * The Historical Society of Pennsylvania: http://www.hsp.org/default.aspx?id=557 * The Library of the American Philosophical Society: http://www.amphilsoc.org/search/ * Maryland State Archives and the Archives of Maryland Online: http://www.msa.md.gov/ I feel quite certain that TRP hit all three of these libraries while researching M&D. Their relevant collections are absolutely stunning. You can find first-hand materials in these libraries that are (nearly?) quoted word-for-word in M&D. _________________________________________________________________ Making the world a better place one message at a time. http://www.imtalkathon.com/?source=EML_WLH_Talkathon_BetterPlace From dpayne1912 at hotmail.com Sun Jul 13 03:12:55 2008 From: dpayne1912 at hotmail.com (David Payne) Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2008 08:12:55 +0000 Subject: Repost: "The Big One" In-Reply-To: <8CAB1B2CC606104-1488-2D96@WEBMAIL-MC03.sysops.aol.com> References: <4877BEDB.9060503@verizon.net> <8CAB1B2CC606104-1488-2D96@WEBMAIL-MC03.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 11 Jul 2008 (17:18:29 -0400), malignd at aol.com wrote: It sounds like a fun thing to do. Before I started lurking on this list (back in 2003?) I think that a couple of p-listers actually made a pilgrimage to some of the stone markers (maybe during the group read of M&D?). My own experience was more modest, but certainly unforgettable. I had just finished reading M&D and we (me, my husband and our three kids) were visiting friends in Maryland, from whence we were going to visit friends in Harrisburg, PA. So naturally, I suggested we look for the Mason-Dixon line. We found a website http://www.mdlpp.org/ (unfortunately it's under construction at the moment, but there must be others) which gave us the locations of the stone markers that were still there and instructions for finding them. We headed for one that was in the general area where we'd be crossing the border. It was located in a privately owned field, but the website said the owners didn't mind people stopping to look. We were a little uncertain about the whole thing but stopped in at a local historical society, about a mile from the Maryland-Pennsylvania border. The nice people there had heard of the Mason-Dixon line but were pretty sure it was located somewhere in the Deep South. We drove a mile to the border, located the field, hopped out of the car and found ourselves (all 5 of us) shin deep in freshly spread cow manure. With little option, we pressed on and found the marker. It was actually really exciting to find as it was in good condition and the M and P were very legible. After that, it was a sad story. We had to discard our shoes and socks. We drove around the Gettysburg area desperately looking for a shoe store. People kept directing us to stores that sold antique boots for Civil War reenactments. Finally, we found a soulless, suburban shoe emporium that was understaffed enough so that no one threw us out when we all walked in barefoot. It's a history lesson my kids will never forget. Have fun and tell us all about it! Laura -----Original Message----- >From: David Payne >Sent: Jul 13, 2008 3:31 AM >To: kipend at arts.gov, P-list >Subject: RE: Pondering an M&D road trip... > > >On Sat, 12 Jul 2008 (14:47:49 -0400), David Kipend (kipend at gmail.com) wrote: > >> Any of you ever try to trace Charles and Jeremiah's footsteps? Besides Himself, natch... > >There are two different trips that you could plan: tracing C & J, or tracing TRP tracing C & J. > >If you are interested in tracing TRP tracing C & J (in the US), I'd recommend stopping in at these libraries, which I have, unfortunately, only been able to visit on the web: > >* The Historical Society of Pennsylvania: http://www.hsp.org/default.aspx?id=557 > >* The Library of the American Philosophical Society: http://www.amphilsoc.org/search/ > >* Maryland State Archives and the Archives of Maryland Online: http://www.msa.md.gov/ > >I feel quite certain that TRP hit all three of these libraries while researching M&D. Their relevant collections are absolutely stunning. You can find first-hand materials in these libraries that are (nearly?) quoted word-for-word in M&D. >_________________________________________________________________ >Making the world a better place one message at a time. >http://www.imtalkathon.com/?source=EML_WLH_Talkathon_BetterPlace From markekohut at yahoo.com Sun Jul 13 09:23:34 2008 From: markekohut at yahoo.com (Mark Kohut) Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2008 07:23:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ....."Or we wouldn't need light"....news imitates AtD... Message-ID: <600051.15565.qm@web38404.mail.mud.yahoo.com> If those issues are dealt with, "We're about to go into the most exciting period of human history," Clinton said. "If we don't, in the words of President Roosevelt, dark will be the future," he said. "I'm betting on light—I hope you are, too." From markekohut at yahoo.com Sun Jul 13 09:34:33 2008 From: markekohut at yahoo.com (Mark Kohut) Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2008 07:34:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Repost: "The Big One" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <475300.38401.qm@web38405.mail.mud.yahoo.com> As, it seems, the lone contrarian voice, I will risk being wrong again: There is as much 'moral nuance' in "Against the Day", at least, as in almost any writer. Presenting such nuances may be one of TRPs deepest themes here, i.e. a vision of life in History that has a fuller range---see Light Over the Ranges---than in any other of his books. --- On Sun, 7/13/08, David Payne wrote: > From: David Payne > Subject: RE: Repost: "The Big One" > To: malignd at aol.com, pynchon-l at waste.org > Date: Sunday, July 13, 2008, 4:12 AM > On Fri, 11 Jul 2008 (17:18:29 -0400), malignd at aol.com wrote: > > > That's funny sh^t, man, but, umm, just for the record, > when I said "morally flat," I did not mean > morally void, I meant morally un-nuanced. > > Like, for example, a moral vision that collapses everyone > into Nazis or Abbie Hoffman--that's morally flat. As is > a vision that sees Capitalism as the Right for all Wrongs. > Or a vision that sees Lex Luther as the archnemesis of > Superman. Or a vision that sees the Jews as the evil that > must be exterminated by the Supermen. > > Flattening morality is a common trick, practiced by > revolutionaries (Public Enemy? Bush? ), the status quo > (Reagan? Bush?), satarists (Bush? Dante?), and simpletons > (Homer Simpson? Bush?). > > Moral nuance is also a common trick, supposedly practiced > by con men, lovers, and novelists. > > I am perfectly willing to concede the point (i.e., Pynchon > creates novels that place characters in a morally-flat > universe) if faced with a nuanced (or sinister) argument, > but--my thinking right now--it seems to me that Pynchon > often flattens morality into good guys vs. bad guys as a > satirist's (sp? -- one who creates satire?) tool in > order to issue moral clarity and comic relieve. > > I dig Pynchon, but I do not turn to his novels for solace > when I feel temptation, a morally gray world tugging me on > all three sides ... his characters fight the powers that > be, or they die, or they *are* (gasp!) the powers that be. > > So till sweet death do us part, may Dog have mercy. But > don't tell nobody. > _________________________________________________________________ > Making the world a better place one message at a time. > http://www.imtalkathon.com/?source=EML_WLH_Talkathon_BetterPlace From scuffling at gmail.com Sun Jul 13 09:43:16 2008 From: scuffling at gmail.com (Henry) Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2008 10:43:16 -0400 Subject: Pondering an M&D road trip... In-Reply-To: <10937403.1215958092970.JavaMail.root@elwamui-huard.atl.sa.earthlink.net> References: <10937403.1215958092970.JavaMail.root@elwamui-huard.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <000b01c8e4f6$c9842eb0$5c8c8c10$@com> Great story, Laura! A few of us rebs met up with some of the NY Yankee P-Listers in Newark, uh, Delaware, and we drove around Until we found a marker Not long before it started to get darker. The ground was too muddy for one of the women, but none of the cow-men knew her! (It really was muddy, but all were valiant!) I still have the pics that we took, one of a few inside and one whole-sick-crew-shot outside of the tavern where we stopped for libations. I remember that when we had an end-of-the-night desert at a diner, the waitress had never heard of having cheddar with your apple pie. Oh, my! HENRY MUSIKAR Information, Media, and Technology Consultant http://my.barackobama.com/page/community/blog/henrymu -----Original Message----- From: Laura Kelber It sounds like a fun thing to do. Before I started lurking on this list (back in 2003?) I think that a couple of p-listers actually made a pilgrimage to some of the stone markers (maybe during the group read of M&D?). My own experience was more modest, but certainly unforgettable. I had just finished reading M&D and we (me, my husband and our three kids) were visiting friends in Maryland, from whence we were going to visit friends in Harrisburg, PA. So naturally, I suggested we look for the Mason-Dixon line. We found a website http://www.mdlpp.org/ (unfortunately it's under construction at the moment, but there must be others) which gave us the locations of the stone markers that were still there and instructions for finding them. We headed for one that was in the general area where we'd be crossing the border. It was located in a privately owned field, but the website said the owners didn't mind people stopping to look. We were a little uncertain about the whole thing but stopped in at a local historical society, about a mile from the Maryland-Pennsylvania border. The nice people there had heard of the Mason-Dixon line but were pretty sure it was located somewhere in the Deep South. We drove a mile to the border, located the field, hopped out of the car and found ourselves (all 5 of us) shin deep in freshly spread cow manure. With little option, we pressed on and found the marker. It was actually really exciting to find as it was in good condition and the M and P were very legible. After that, it was a sad story. We had to discard our shoes and socks. We drove around the Gettysburg area desperately looking for a shoe store. People kept directing us to stores that sold antique boots for Civil War reenactments. Finally, we found a soulless, suburban shoe emporium that was understaffed enough so that no one threw us out when we all walked in barefoot. It's a history lesson my kids will never forget. Have fun and tell us all about it! Laura From robinlandseadel at comcast.net Sun Jul 13 12:30:34 2008 From: robinlandseadel at comcast.net (robinlandseadel at comcast.net) Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2008 17:30:34 +0000 Subject: Repost: "The Big One" Message-ID: <071320081730.27104.487A3BBA00084E09000069E022155786740A0D0E0C0C0304070E09@comcast.net> Mark Kohut : As, it seems, the lone contrarian voice, I will risk being wrong again: Plenty of "Contrary" goin'' on 'round here, buddah. Square one: Pynchon is a Satirist, he deals in caricatures, "Extremes & in Betweens" to cite Chuck Jones, an obvious role model. The man simply can't help himself, he's into the black humor of it all as much as anyone else. It's not that man's incapable of nuance [obviously], it's that he's so keen on cartoons: ". . . .May Road Runner cartoons never vanish from the video waves, is my attitude. . . ." . . . .yeah, yeah, I know�way the hell outta context. But: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6pje1Ebc5v0 From joeallonby at gmail.com Sun Jul 13 13:52:41 2008 From: joeallonby at gmail.com (Joe Allonby) Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2008 14:52:41 -0400 Subject: Repost: "The Big One" In-Reply-To: <071320081730.27104.487A3BBA00084E09000069E022155786740A0D0E0C0C0304070E09@comcast.net> References: <071320081730.27104.487A3BBA00084E09000069E022155786740A0D0E0C0C0304070E09@comcast.net> Message-ID: The first time that I drove across the Utah Canyonlands I boggled. "Holy Shit! It's a Roadrunner cartoon!" On Sun, Jul 13, 2008 at 1:30 PM, wrote: > Mark Kohut : > As, it seems, the lone contrarian voice, > I will risk being wrong again: > > Plenty of "Contrary" goin'' on 'round here, buddah. > > Square one: Pynchon is a Satirist, he deals in caricatures, > "Extremes & in Betweens" to cite Chuck Jones, an obvious role model. > The man simply can't help himself, he's into the black humor > of it all as much as anyone else. It's not that man's incapable > of nuance [obviously], it's that he's so keen on cartoons: > > ". . . .May Road Runner cartoons never vanish from > the video waves, is my attitude. . . ." > > . . . .yeah, yeah, I know—way the hell outta context. > > But: > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6pje1Ebc5v0 > > > > > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From joeallonby at gmail.com Sun Jul 13 13:57:04 2008 From: joeallonby at gmail.com (Joe Allonby) Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2008 14:57:04 -0400 Subject: NYT Book Review Message-ID: Two mentions of TRP in today's NYTBR. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bekker2 at mac.com Sun Jul 13 15:36:49 2008 From: bekker2 at mac.com (Bekah) Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2008 13:36:49 -0700 Subject: AtD: (36) pages 1018-1029 Message-ID: <4836E863-DD92-4CEC-9970-CF8D3BDB6303@mac.com> Next action section: Chums of Chance The prior section took place on April 20, 1914 - This one starts a few months later. page 1018: "The summer of 1914 found the Chums in heat stricken Europe ..." http://tinyurl.com/6ymapc (Also, I believe Barbara Tuchman in "The Guns of August" made mention of a heat wave in the summer of 1914.) "... when they hear of a huge updraft over the Sahara desert. " Wasn't there something about the African desert in (33)? The Inconvenience, along with other ships, has disaffiliated from the National Office which has even vacated its premises. The ships have only a loose connection to other ships with "Chums of Chance" name and insignia. **************** page 1019 This has increased flow of revenue so the Inconvenience adds better engines and increase the size of the mess hall and a cooking staff including a sous (2nd in command) chef from Tour d'Argent (specializes in duck) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tour_d'Argent Chinese gong from assassination cult in Boxer Rebellion "The Chums of Chance and the Wrath of the Yellow Fang" Boxer Rebellion - 1899 - 1901 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ Boxer_Rebellion The 1903 Verzenay champaign http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:Verzenay_moulin.jpg Darby opposes just going - wants someone to pay in advance for adventures. Pugnax' friend - Ksenija, a Macedonian sarplaninec sheepdog - http://www.unet.com.mk/sharplaninec/history.htm (nice - this dog is shaggy and beautiful imo) Yes, they would go - unanimous - Darby too. The boys apparently ride a huge updraft (sandstorm or enormous dust devil) over the deserts of North Africa out to sea - going northwest. Saharran anti-gravity strangely red cylindrical cloud - sands eternally ascending http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Sahara_dust_plume_Nov_1998.jpg Could be a haboob: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haboob a Sirocco? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Sirocco_from_Libya.jpg (goes the wrong way, though) **************** Page 1020 pure aerodynamic lift - anti-paradise (anti-paradise equates to hell? - traveling up in a saharan dust storm might equate to that Randolph: "... if going up is like going north, with the common variable being cold, the analogous direction in Time, by the Second Law of Thermodynamics ought to be from past to future, in the direction of increasing entropy." "Going up would be like going north. - go high enough to descend to another planet. " Or, as the commander had put it then, 'Another "surface" but an earthly one. ... all too earthly. ' " "...each star and planet we can see in the sky is but the reflection of our single Earth along a different Minkowskian space- time track http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minkowski_space http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hermann_Minkowski If each surface is the reflection of our own, and if going up is like going North, both cold, then the analogous Time element would be from Past to Future with increasing entropy. So... the ship is going up but the instrument readings say down - to a surface none could see. "... an antique but reliable sympiezometer..." from little known Battle of Desconocido (sp. trans = "unknown") California sympiezometer: A type of barometer whereby the liquid is suspended below air or other gas rather than a vacuum, so that the atmospheric pressure acts against the weight of the liquid and the pressure of the gas. http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/sympiezometer Hypops gear from Inner Asia assignment (for travel under sand) From page 426 - Hypopsammotic... Hypops Hypo- (under) + psammot- (sand, from Greek psammos) Mountains of the Moon "A small mountain range in central Africa between Uganda and the Democratic Republic of the Congo, long though falsely supposed to be the source of the Nile. Today called the Ruwenzori Range." about to crash into a range of obsidian mountains with red highlights, razor-sharp crestlines and vaporous twilight. "Lighten Ship!" and they escaped a crash with "inches to spare." (lol) **************** Page 1021 Randolph and Lindsay can find no maps to match the terrain - decide that it's the Pythagorean or Counter-Earth once postulated by Philolause of Tarentum See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Counter-Earth From: http://www.dmoz.org/Society/Philosophy/Philosophers/P/desc.html "Philolaus (Philolaus of Croton, Philolaus of Tarentum), fl. 5th century BC. A leading Pythagorean philosopher who survived the persecution of that school. He is widely attributed with having originated the theory of spherical universe." and From: http://scienceworld.wolfram.com/biography/Pythagoras.html "In keeping with the assumed magical properties of the number ten, some of the Pythagoreans, led by Philolaus, added a tenth "wanderer" and proposed that there existed a counter-earth which, together with the earth and other "planets," orbited a central fire. Pythagoras believed that the planets produced sounds while tracing out their orbits, producing the "harmony of the spheres." While much of their studies were sheer mysticism, the Pythagoreans were the first to mathematicize the universe." Foundational Memorandum from the Star Trek Prime Directive http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prime_directive Pythagorean Earth - Philolaus believed that only one side of our Earth was inhabited. The other Earth he called Antichthon which was why nobody eveer saw it. See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Counter-Earth Antichthon is the Greek word for Counter-Earth They were on the other earth but also on the Earth they had never left. They came to understand that they were lost - deposited on another Earth. Safely back on Earth? "Deposited by the great Saharan updraft on a planet from which they remained uncertain as to the chances of return, the boys could almost believe some days that they were safely back home on Earth - on others they found an American Republic whose welfare they believed they were sworn to advance passed so irrevocably into the control of the evil and moronic that it seemed they could not, after all, have escaped the gravity of the Counter-Earth. Sworn by their Foundational Memorandum never to interfere in the affairs of the "groundhogs," they looked on in helplessness and a depression of spirit new to them." (Why did they believe they were sworn to advance the welfare of the American Republic?) But now the boys had less revenue from travel and more from business and investments they wonder if days of global adventure are behind them. Early autumn 1914 - when the war was really starting - Russian agent "Baklashchan" (an alias) visits wondering about Igor Padzhitnoff who has been missing since summer. Actually, "The Great Game" has been lost - Pazhitnoff and Tetris (the great game) are related - "The Great Game" is what was played out in the years 1813 - 1907 between England and Russia over the fate of Central Asia - ("The Great Game" by Peter Hopkirk - great book.) The Chums are unaware of the current "world situation" and Baklashchan is not allowed to share info (old agreements). Despite the "Eleventh Commandment" - boys agreed. Payment in gold - in a Baktrian Camel. a short, two humps, Asian camel - http://tinyurl.com/3p9ozt Please regard our regards to the Tsar and his family - we should be seeing them quite soon said Baklashchan. (apparently a monarchist). Baklashchan Possibly a pun: "backlash chan" -- the land of backlashes. Has resonance with Baluchistan palteau found in the area of Pakistan, Iran and Afghanistan. Or can refer to a backlash as in a reactionary political/social movement? Bactrian camel Dromedary vs. Bactrian: the mnemonic says count the humps in the first letter. Bactrian, two humps. One could say, a "bi-cameral" camel -- the "bi" motiff appears again. Also, this is the second mention of the bactrian camel. The first is on p. 431. full moon Assuming this scene takes place on the same planet we are on now, the first full moon of the early autumn of 1914 took place at exactly, 5:59 am. (UT/GMT) on October 4th. Since the moon is almost full here, this scene probably took place on the night of Oct. 2 or 3rd. I have not found any event of note correlating with these dates -- though Jack Whiteside Parsons, occultist and JPL co-founder was born on October 2nd, 1914. And if you read his bio, this guy belongs in a Pynchon novel. World-Island See annotation at page 433 And WWI is on: "Something very peculiar indeed was going on down on the Surface ... Entire blocks of sky were posted as off limits.... great explosions of a deep ... intensity... skycraft (to) groan... unexpected shortages... champagne suspended ... countryside torn up with trenches." "Trenches" Miles said, as if it were a foreign technical term. " http://tinyurl.com/6koq6q **************** Page 1023 Miles was aware in some dim way that this, long unspoken agreement - that when they learned to fly, they paid with a waiver of allegiance to it and all that would occur on it. (So they can't really be involved - but still, why the allegiance to America?) They fly from place to place on this counter planet. Pazhitnoff is always a step ahead. "We're chasing ourselves now. We always knew he was haunting us." (History haunts us?) Miles: " 'Are ghosts dreadful because they bring toward us in some from the future some component - in the vectorial sense, of our own deaths? Are they partially, defectively, our own dead selves, thrust back, in recoil from the mirrorface at the end, to haunt us?' " Miles remembers West Flanders and the prophecy of Ray Thorn. page 553-555, Ray Thorn is apparently a "trespasser" who knows the future and has predicted WWI and Flanders Field. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_I_casualties Flanders Field was at Ypres. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In_Flanders_Fields And then the incredible sentence: "They knew they were standing before a great chasm none could see to the bottom of. But they launched themselves into it ... " (next page) **************** Page 1024 ... anyway. Cheering and laughing. It was their own "Adventure." They were juvenile heroes of a World-Narrative - unreflective and free, they went on hurling themselves into those depths by tens of thousands until one day they awoke, those who were still alive, and instead of finding themselves posed nobly against some dramatic moral geography, they were down crying in a mud trench swarming with rats and smelling of shit and death." They find Pazhitnoff but the ship's Romanoff crest has been changed to read- "Pomne o Golodayushchiki" which means, "Remember the Starving" and it's on red. This is probably about mid February 1917 because they will shortly be doing something that took place in March. Pomne o Golodayushchiki Russian: Remember the Starving. Incorrect. Should be: Pomni o Golodayushchikh. "Dobro pozhalovaat" / "Welcome." He's taken down the Tsarist stuff and is now in hiding from the current regime. There is no more Okhrana, Tsar's secret police, so Pazhitnoff's ship now flies medical supplies to whomever is in need. Tsar-Bell of Moscow Famous bell that proved too heavy for the tower it was intended for; it was displayed on the ground for centuries (and may still be). See Tsar Kolokol & its picture. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tsar_Bell cranberry-flavored beer Kvass, traditional Russian beverage made by fermenting a mash of stale rye bread. It can be flavored with, among other things, cranberries. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kvass Great global influenza epidemic (March 1918 - 1919) http://virus.stanford.edu/uda/ and quite a few books lately. **************** Page 1025 "These days I think we are fugitives..." - About Baklashchan, Pazhitnoff says he is a "podlets - a cringer." Russia and Reform by Bernard Peres - pg 327 (pub. 1907) : "It has been said, In Russia don't be born clever, but be born a 'cringer," a ('a podlets.')" - scoundrel http://tinyurl.com/67ft8b 1025:35-38, "... artillery shells ... reaching the tops of their trajectories and pausing in the air for an instant before the deadly plunge back to Earth." But this time, the Rainbow of Gravity is observed from above, a reverse parabola.) http://chumpsofchoice.blogspot.com/2007/11/remember-starving.html The Chums don't turn Pazhitnoff in and they all hide out in the mountains. Shtab (Shtab (n.m.) means staff in Russian) http://tinyurl.com/64sv8v Probably the ICRC - International Red Cross and Red Cresent http://www.answers.com/topic/red-cross is in Switzxerland. Dunant recruited everyone he could to help him found the Red Cross including a chocolate manufacturer (back in 1859) . http://www.ehl.icrc.org/images/stories/resources/1A/1a_stories_comp.pdf "(Dunant) wrote a small book called A Memory of Solferino, in which he described what he had seen and made a simple proposal: Would it not be possible in time of peace and quiet to form relief societies for the purpose of having care given to the wounded in wartime by zealous, devoted and thoroughly qualified volunteers? The book led to the formation of the “International Committee for the relief of military wounded,” which evolved into the International Committee of the Red Cross. His vision also led to the development of Red Cross and Red Crescent societies around the world." There is a disagreement about whether or not to turn Pazhitnoff in. fight - bad words - "English Slander of Women act of 1891 http://tinyurl.com/5db6fq explostions and buzzing of military aircraft - searchlights of evening **************** Page 1026 Battle of Verdun http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Verdun Mount Blanc Mount Blanc, with a height of 15,800 ft at its summit, is the highest mountain in Western Europe. It is situated at the French/Italian border with each country claims the summit as her own. Mount Blanc is one of the most visited tourist destinations in the world. the Revolution On November 7, 1917, the Russian Bolsheviks overthrew Alexander Kerensky's democratic Provisional Government in Petrograd (St Petersburg) in a virtually bloodless coup. See November Revolution. ostinati In music, ostinato refers to a short phrase that is repeated several times. The 2-note bass pattern from "Jaws" is an ostinato, as is the opening bass part to "Sweet Emotion" by Aerosmith and the bass part to Pachelbel's Canon. Any repeated riff in a rock song is an ostinato, from the opening guitar riff of "(I Can't Get No) Satisfaction" by the Rolling Stones to the voiced "Take a Chance"s by ABBA. Staccato is a direction in music meaning that the notes should be performed in an abrupt, sharp, clear-cut manner. It certainly pertains to machine-gun fire and Pynchon has the ostinati and the staccato "scored", which is also a musical term meaning the wriiten form of a musical composition. **************** Page 1027 Swiss compassion - trains with passengers were greeted with flowers - schnapps, chocolate, War is horrendous - In Swiss - other side of tapestry - work - cargo jobs sugar, cooking fat, pasta - waiting in border towns - redistributing hay, cheese during famines (chronic) across borders - oranges wheat - Paddy appears - announces promotion - no more cargo - now personnel Special situation - internees by train was inadvisable - not repatriated - who is being transported? the negotiated exit in 1920 of the anti-Bolshevik Czech Legion, which had held much of the Trans-Siberian Railroad (cf. pp. 269, 567, 752...) Needs speed - in Balkans - Siberia - to negotiate for Japanese expeditionary Polchak's government shot at - new experience - not personal - their involvement had not begun until they had taken refuge on neutral ground Paddy after long night in bars - happened to cross paths with Randolph **************** Page 1028 what is it Paddy wonders. Nothing special - Eclisiastical - Marimas - -Bell of Cathedral rings - all bells join. In Europe something called Armistice had taken effect. Martinmas Feast day of St. Martin of Tours, November 11. an armistice The agreement between the Germans and the Allies to end World War I on November 11, 1918. **************** Page 1029 Consequences may never end They certainly haven't. The Balkans remain a powderkeg, and the Iraq War is a direct consequence of the destruction and partition of the Ottoman Empire in World war I. But the consequences of any act never really end... Nebo-tovarishch Russian: sky-comrade. A grammatically incorrect compound. It comes out as if the sky is the comrade. Should be something like tovarishch po nebu or nebesnyi tovarishch. repeating great vertical circles Like hot-air balloons (nondirigibles) in the "box" outside Albuquerque, New Mexico. standard cubic feet Measure of quantity of gas: number of cubic feet that would be occupied if the gas were at "standard conditions," i.e., 60 degrees Fahrenheit (usually) and 1 atmosphere or 14.7 pounds per square inch **************** From kelber at mindspring.com Sun Jul 13 17:06:37 2008 From: kelber at mindspring.com (kelber at mindspring.com) Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2008 18:06:37 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Repost: The Big One Message-ID: <9425897.1215986797683.JavaMail.root@elwamui-huard.atl.sa.earthlink.net> No, you're not alone in seeing the moral nuance, Mark. When he writes of IG Farben or the Ludlow Massacre, there's not a whole lot of room for moral nuance. I don't know of any essays written by anyone (correct me someone if I'm wrong) that show that the Rockefeller's actions in the Ludlow massacre were based on a genuinely moral outlook. You don't need to be a moralizing prig to come down on the side of the miners. When we're talking about whether TRP's writing is morally flat or un-nuanced, the implication is that he's somewhat of a prig or at least a knee-jerker. When he writes about WWI or the aftermath of the Mexican Revolution (Madero presidency) he's aware that there are no good guys to side with. In the sequence where Frank dynamites a moving train in a collision course with Federales, knowingly causing untold human and animal deaths, he's become uncomfortably aware that he's going through the motions (and deadly motions they are); he no longer knows or much cares what he's fighting for. Then TRP's morality kicks in: the morality of the state of grace, the Buddhist viewpoint: (p. 985): " ... suddenly the day had become extradimensional, the country shifted, was no longer the desert abstraction of a map but was speed, air rushing, the smell of smoke and steam, time whose substance grew more condensed as each tick came faster and faster, all perfectly inseparable from Frank's certainty that jumping or not jumping was no longer the point, he belonged to what was happening ..." Faced with the moral chaos of WWI, the Mexican devolution, the post 9-11 world, the only choice (I think he's saying) is to view the world in its proper perspective, as it is, nothing more. This may be moralizing, but it's neither flat or un-nuanced. Laura -----Original Message----- >From: Mark Kohut >Sent: Jul 13, 2008 10:34 AM >To: David Payne >Cc: pynchon -l >Subject: RE: Repost: "The Big One" > >As, it seems, the lone contrarian voice, I will risk being wrong again: > >There is as much 'moral nuance' in "Against the Day", at least, as in >almost any writer. > >Presenting such nuances may be one of TRPs deepest themes here, i.e. a vision of life in History that has a fuller range---see Light Over the Ranges---than in any other of his books. > > >--- On Sun, 7/13/08, David Payne wrote: > >> From: David Payne >> Subject: RE: Repost: "The Big One" >> To: malignd at aol.com, pynchon-l at waste.org >> Date: Sunday, July 13, 2008, 4:12 AM >> On Fri, 11 Jul 2008 (17:18:29 -0400), malignd at aol.com wrote: >> >> > >> That's funny sh^t, man, but, umm, just for the record, >> when I said "morally flat," I did not mean >> morally void, I meant morally un-nuanced. >> >> Like, for example, a moral vision that collapses everyone >> into Nazis or Abbie Hoffman--that's morally flat. As is >> a vision that sees Capitalism as the Right for all Wrongs. >> Or a vision that sees Lex Luther as the archnemesis of >> Superman. Or a vision that sees the Jews as the evil that >> must be exterminated by the Supermen. >> >> Flattening morality is a common trick, practiced by >> revolutionaries (Public Enemy? Bush? ), the status quo >> (Reagan? Bush?), satarists (Bush? Dante?), and simpletons >> (Homer Simpson? Bush?). >> >> Moral nuance is also a common trick, supposedly practiced >> by con men, lovers, and novelists. >> >> I am perfectly willing to concede the point (i.e., Pynchon >> creates novels that place characters in a morally-flat >> universe) if faced with a nuanced (or sinister) argument, >> but--my thinking right now--it seems to me that Pynchon >> often flattens morality into good guys vs. bad guys as a >> satirist's (sp? -- one who creates satire?) tool in >> order to issue moral clarity and comic relieve. >> >> I dig Pynchon, but I do not turn to his novels for solace >> when I feel temptation, a morally gray world tugging me on >> all three sides ... his characters fight the powers that >> be, or they die, or they *are* (gasp!) the powers that be. >> >> So till sweet death do us part, may Dog have mercy. But >> don't tell nobody. From robinlandseadel at comcast.net Sun Jul 13 18:44:49 2008 From: robinlandseadel at comcast.net (robinlandseadel at comcast.net) Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2008 23:44:49 +0000 Subject: Repost: The Big One Message-ID: <071320082344.6906.487A93710002986100001AFA2215568884040A0B0E0A9C0B020E0402070D019D@comcast.net> Laura: No, you're not alone in seeing the moral nuance, Mark. When he writes of IG Farben or the Ludlow Massacre, there's not a whole lot of room for moral nuance. I don't know of any essays written by anyone (correct me someone if I'm wrong) that show that the Rockefeller's actions in the Ludlow massacre were based on a genuinely moral outlook. You don't need to be a moralizing prig to come down on the side of the miners. . . . . . . . and if you're willing to take the Red Pill and go pedal to the metal paranoid on the subject of the Rockefeller/Bush/Big Oil axis of evil, oozing from AtD into GR and then on in to our present day; note how consistently, in OBA's revisionist fictions, that crew gets to be "Worst Persons of the Novel." Coincidence? I think not . . . . From malignd at aol.com Sun Jul 13 20:46:50 2008 From: malignd at aol.com (malignd at aol.com) Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2008 21:46:50 -0400 Subject: Repost: "The Big One" In-Reply-To: <48783891.9000806@verizon.net> References: <8CAB1B2CC606104-1488-2D96@WEBMAIL-MC03.sysops.aol.com> <48783891.9000806@verizon.net> Message-ID: <8CAB36A9E37412C-12D8-868@WEBMAIL-DC05.sysops.aol.com> <> All I'm saying is that Pynchon's sides are obviously taken.  The Counterforce, for Chrissake?  He's not subtle. -----Original Message----- From: Paul Mackin To: pynchon-l at waste.org Sent: Sat, 12 Jul 2008 12:52 am Subject: Re: Repost: "The Big One" malignd at aol.com wrote:  >  > < possible. >>  >  >  > Very little reading into is called for.  >    In which case I would recommend doing some UNreading OUT.    Reader nullification, as it were.    Mickey Messer sez, First the beefsteak, then the moral.    Why not, First the beefsteak, skip the moral.    The main course is filling enough.    P.            >  > ------------------------------------------------------------------------  > The Famous, the Infamous, the Lame - in your browser. Get the TMZ > Toolbar Now > !    -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From malignd at aol.com Sun Jul 13 20:53:58 2008 From: malignd at aol.com (malignd at aol.com) Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2008 21:53:58 -0400 Subject: Repost: "The Big One" In-Reply-To: References: <4877BEDB.9060503@verizon.net> <8CAB1B2CC606104-1488-2D96@WEBMAIL-MC03.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <8CAB36B9D4082D2-12D8-8A5@WEBMAIL-DC05.sysops.aol.com> > et al My note was in response to Paul Mackin, not you. So far as I can tell from the rest of your post, we agree. -----Original Message----- From: David Payne To: malignd at aol.com; pynchon-l at waste.org Sent: Sun, 13 Jul 2008 4:12 am Subject: RE: Repost: "The Big One" On Fri, 11 Jul 2008 (17:18:29 -0400), malignd at aol.com wrote: From malignd at aol.com Sun Jul 13 21:01:29 2008 From: malignd at aol.com (malignd at aol.com) Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2008 22:01:29 -0400 Subject: Repost: The Big One In-Reply-To: <9425897.1215986797683.JavaMail.root@elwamui-huard.atl.sa.earthlink.net> References: <9425897.1215986797683.JavaMail.root@elwamui-huard.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <8CAB36CAA1245A8-12D8-8EF@WEBMAIL-DC05.sysops.aol.com> <> Just wondering: do you have any knowledge of IG Farben or the Ludlow massacre outside of your reading in Pynchon? If not, your taking his point of view to argue for the correctness of his point of view. -----Original Message----- From: kelber at mindspring.com To: pynchon-l at waste.org Sent: Sun, 13 Jul 2008 6:06 pm Subject: Re: Repost: The Big One No, you're not alone in seeing the moral nuance, Mark. When he writes of IG Farben or the Ludlow Massacre, there's not a whole lot of room for moral nuance. I don't know of any essays written by anyone (correct me someone if I'm wrong) that show that the Rockefeller's actions in the Ludlow massacre were based on a genuinely moral outlook. You don't need to be a moralizing prig to come down on the side of the miners. When we're talking about whether TRP's writing is morally flat or un-nuanced, the implication is that he's somewhat of a prig or at least a knee-jerker. When he writes about WWI or the aftermath of the Mexican Revolution (Madero presidency) he's aware that there are no good guys to side with. In the sequence where Frank dynamites a moving train in a collision course with Federales, knowingly causing untold human and animal deaths, he's become uncomfortably aware that he's going through the motions (and deadly motions they are); he no longer knows or much cares what he's fighting for. Then TRP's morality kicks in: the morality of the state of grace, the Buddhist viewpoint: (p. 985): " ... suddenly the day had become extradimensional, the country shifted, was no longer the desert abstraction of a map but was speed, air rushing, the smell of smoke and steam, time whose substance grew more condensed as each tick came faster and faster, all perfectly inseparable from Frank's certainty that jumping or not jumping was no longer the point, he belonged to what was happening ..." Faced with the moral chaos of WWI, the Mexican devolution, the post 9-11 world, the only choice (I think he's saying) is to view the world in its proper perspective, as it is, nothing more. This may be moralizing, but it's neither flat or un-nuanced. Laura -----Original Message----- >From: Mark Kohut >Sent: Jul 13, 2008 10:34 AM >To: David Payne >Cc: pynchon -l >Subject: RE: Repost: "The Big One" > >As, it seems, the lone contrarian voice, I will risk being wrong again: > >There is as much 'moral nuance' in "Against the Day", at least, as in >almost any writer. > >Presenting such nuances may be one of TRPs deepest themes here, i.e. a vision of life in History that has a fuller range---see Light Over the Ranges---than in any other of his books. > > >--- On Sun, 7/13/08, David Payne wrote: > >> From: David Payne >> Subject: RE: Repost: "The Big One" >> To: malignd at aol.com, pynchon-l at waste.org >> Date: Sunday, July 13, 2008, 4:12 AM >> On Fri, 11 Jul 2008 (17:18:29 -0400), malignd at aol.com wrote: >> >> > >> That's funny sh^t, man, but, umm, just for the record, >> when I said "morally flat," I did not mean >> morally void, I meant morally un-nuanced. >> >> Like, for example, a moral vision that collapses everyone >> into Nazis or Abbie Hoffman--that's morally flat. As is >> a vision that sees Capitalism as the Right for all Wrongs. >> Or a vision that sees Lex Luther as the archnemesis of >> Superman. Or a vision that sees the Jews as the evil that >> must be exterminated by the Supermen. >> >> Flattening morality is a common trick, practiced by >> revolutionaries (Public Enemy? Bush? ), the status quo >> (Reagan? Bush?), satarists (Bush? Dante?), and simpletons >> (Homer Simpson? Bush?). >> >> Moral nuance is also a common trick, supposedly practiced >> by con men, lovers, and novelists. >> >> I am perfectly willing to concede the point (i.e., Pynchon >> creates novels that place characters in a morally-flat >> universe) if faced with a nuanced (or sinister) argument, >> but--my thinking right now--it seems to me that Pynchon >> often flattens morality into good guys vs. bad guys as a >> satirist's (sp? -- one who creates satire?) tool in >> order to issue moral clarity and comic relieve. >> >> I dig Pynchon, but I do not turn to his novels for solace >> when I feel temptation, a morally gray world tugging me on >> all three sides ... his characters fight the powers that >> be, or they die, or they *are* (gasp!) the powers that be. >> >> So till sweet death do us part, may Dog have mercy. But >> don't tell nobody. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From robinlandseadel at comcast.net Sun Jul 13 21:19:06 2008 From: robinlandseadel at comcast.net (robinlandseadel at comcast.net) Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2008 02:19:06 +0000 Subject: Repost: The Big One Message-ID: <071420080219.2311.487AB79A00082CAA000009072216566276040A0B0E0A9C0B020E0402070D019D@comcast.net> malignd: Just wondering: do you have any knowledge of IG Farben outside of your reading in Pynchon? Yep, all roads lead to Prescott Bush. Any questions? -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: malignd at aol.com Subject: Re: Repost: The Big One Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2008 02:08:22 +0000 Size: 7370 URL: From malignd at aol.com Sun Jul 13 21:39:41 2008 From: malignd at aol.com (malignd at aol.com) Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2008 22:39:41 -0400 Subject: Fwd: Repost: The Big One In-Reply-To: <8CAB371DE9EC346-12D8-A2E@WEBMAIL-DC05.sysops.aol.com> References: <071420080219.2311.487AB79A00082CAA000009072216566276040A0B0E0A9C0B020E0402070D019D@comcast.net> <8CAB371DE9EC346-12D8-A2E@WEBMAIL-DC05.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <8CAB372007DD314-12D8-A37@WEBMAIL-DC05.sysops.aol.com> -----Original Message----- From: malignd at aol.com To: pynchon-list at waste.org Sent: Sun, 13 Jul 2008 10:38 pm Subject: Re: Repost: The Big One <> Well yes: what the fuck is this supposed to add, other than to demonstrate the simple-minded this-equals-that sense of morality that I'm describing? The Famous, the Infamous, the Lame - in your browser. Get the TMZ Toolbar Now! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From robinlandseadel at comcast.net Sun Jul 13 21:51:46 2008 From: robinlandseadel at comcast.net (robinlandseadel at comcast.net) Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2008 02:51:46 +0000 Subject: Fwd: Repost: The Big One Message-ID: <071420080251.19731.487ABF42000B4AAB00004D132215575114040A0B0E0A9C0B020E0402070D019D@comcast.net> Robin: Yep, all roads lead to Prescott Bush. Any questions? MD: Well yes: what the fuck is this supposed to add, other than to demonstrate the simple-minded this-equals-that sense of morality that I'm describing? Family history, part of the the Pynchon/Slothrop backstory. George M. Pynchon & William Fox, the emergence of "talkies" and the Downfall of Pynchon & Company. All that really old East Coast money. The establishment of the CIA. The main reason GR is sooooooo paranoid. & Watching your spleen explode all over the internet. What can I say? You're so easy to bait. -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: malignd at aol.com Subject: Fwd: Repost: The Big One Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2008 02:41:20 +0000 Size: 2242 URL: From malignd at aol.com Sun Jul 13 21:51:43 2008 From: malignd at aol.com (malignd at aol.com) Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2008 22:51:43 -0400 Subject: Repost: The Big One In-Reply-To: <071420080219.2311.487AB79A00082CAA000009072216566276040A0B0E0A9C0B020E0402070D019D@comcast.net> References: <071420080219.2311.487AB79A00082CAA000009072216566276040A0B0E0A9C0B020E0402070D019D@comcast.net> Message-ID: <8CAB373AEC06364-12D8-A95@WEBMAIL-DC05.sysops.aol.com> Since you ask, I have read Richard Sasuly's book, which was the clear source for GR; also, Crime and Punishment of IG Farben by Joseph Borkin.  One I own, the other is in the NY Librarly system. So let's hear the argument behind your simple-minded formulation. -----Original Message----- From: robinlandseadel at comcast.net To: P-list Sent: Sun, 13 Jul 2008 10:19 pm Subject: Re: Repost: The Big One malignd: Just wondering: do you have any knowledge of IG Farben outside of your reading in Pynchon? Yep, all roads lead to Prescott Bush. Any questions? Attached Message From: malignd at aol.com To: pynchon-l at waste.org Subject: Re: Repost: The Big One Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2008 02:08:22 +0000 <> Just wondering: do you have any knowledge of IG Farben or the Ludlow massacre outside of your reading in Pynchon? If not, your taking his point of view to argue for the correctness of his point of view. -----Original Message----- From: kelber at mindspring.com To: pynchon-l at waste.org Sent: Sun, 13 Jul 2008 6:06 pm Subject: Re: Repost: The Big One No, you're not alone in seeing the moral nuance, Mark. When he writes of IG Farben or the Ludlow Massacre, there's not a whole lot of room for moral nuance. I don't know of any essays written by anyone (correct me someone if I'm wrong) that show that the Rockefeller's actions in the Ludlow massacre were based on a genuinely moral outlook. You don't need to be a moralizing prig to come down on the side of the miners. When we're talking about whether TRP's writing is morally flat or un-nuanced, the implication is that he's somewhat of a prig or at least a knee-jerker. When he writes about WWI or the aftermath of the Mexican Revolution (Madero presidency) he's aware that there are no good guys to side with. In the sequence where Frank dynamites a moving train in a collision course with Federales, knowingly causing untold human and animal deaths, he's become uncomfortably aware that he's going through the m otions (and deadly motions they are); he no longer knows or much cares what he's fighting for. Then TRP's morality kicks in: the morality of the state of grace, the Buddhist viewpoint: (p. 985): " ... suddenly the day had become extradimensional, the country shifted, was no longer the desert abstraction of a map but was speed, air rushing, the smell of smoke and steam, time whose substance grew more condensed as each tick came faster and faster, all perfectly inseparable from Frank's certainty that jumping or not jumping was no longer the point, he belonged to what was happening ..." Faced with the moral chaos of WWI, the Mexican devolution, the post 9-11 world, the only choice (I think he's saying) is to view the world in its proper perspective, as it is, nothing more. This may be moralizing, but it's neither flat or un-nuanced. Laura -----Original Message----- >From: Mark Kohut >Sent: Jul 13, 2008 10:34 AM >To: David Payne >Cc: pynchon -l >Subject: RE: Repost: "The Big One" > >As, it seems, the lone contrarian voice, I will risk being wrong again: > >There is as much 'moral nuance' in "Against the Day", at least, as in >almost any writer. > >Presenting such nuances may be one of TRPs deepest themes here, i.e. a vision of life in History that has a fuller range---see Light Over the Ranges---than in any other of his books. > > >--- On Sun, 7/13/08, David Payne wrote:0A> >> From: David Payne >> Subject: RE: Repost: "The Big One" >> To: malignd at aol.com, pynchon-l at waste.org >> Date: Sunday, July 13, 2008, 4:12 AM >> On Fri, 11 Jul 2008 (17:18:29 -0400), malignd at aol.com wrote: >> >> > >> That's funny sh^t, man, but, umm, just for the record, >> when I said "morally flat," I did not mean >> morally void, I meant morally un-nuanced. >> >> Like, for example, a moral vision that collapses everyone >> into Nazis or Abbie Hoffman--that's morally flat. As is >> a vision that sees Capitalism as the Right for all Wrongs. >> Or a vision that sees Lex Luther as the archnemesis of >> Superman. Or a vision that sees the Jews as the evil that >> must be exterminated by the Supermen. >> >> Flattening morality is a common trick, practiced by >> revolutionaries (Public Enemy? Bush? ), the status quo >> (Reagan? Bush?), satarists (Bush? Dante?), and simpletons >> (Homer Simpson? Bush?). >> >> Moral nuance is also a common trick, supposedly practiced >> by con men, lovers, and novelists. >> >> I am perfectly willing to concede the point (i.e., Pynchon >> creates novels that place characters in a morally-flat >> universe) if faced with a nuanced (or sinister) argument, >> but--my thinking right now--it seems to me that Pynchon >> often flattens morality into good guys vs. bad guys as a >> satirist's (sp? -- one who creates satire?) tool in >> order to issue moral clarity and comic relieve. >> >> I=2 0dig Pynchon, but I do not turn to his novels for solace >> when I feel temptation, a morally gray world tugging me on >> all three sides ... his characters fight the powers that >> be, or they die, or they *are* (gasp!) the powers that be. >> >> So till sweet death do us part, may Dog have mercy. But >> don't tell nobody. The Famous, the Infamous, the Lame - in your browser. Get the TMZ Toolbar Now! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From malignd at aol.com Sun Jul 13 22:00:56 2008 From: malignd at aol.com (malignd at aol.com) Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2008 23:00:56 -0400 Subject: Repost: The Big One In-Reply-To: <071420080251.19731.487ABF42000B4AAB00004D132215575114040A0B0E0A9C0B020E0402070D019D@comcast.net> References: <071420080251.19731.487ABF42000B4AAB00004D132215575114040A0B0E0A9C0B020E0402070D019D@comcast.net> Message-ID: <8CAB374F8A078A2-12D8-AD3@WEBMAIL-DC05.sysops.aol.com> <> This is an argument? You make my point. You're more persuasive when you enlist Tarot cards and Renaissance fairs to bolster your arguments. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From robinlandseadel at comcast.net Sun Jul 13 22:07:46 2008 From: robinlandseadel at comcast.net (robinlandseadel at comcast.net) Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2008 03:07:46 +0000 Subject: Repost: The Big One Message-ID: <071420080307.21391.487AC302000C920A0000538F2215575114040A0B0E0A9C0B020E0402070D019D@comcast.net> Malign: So let's hear the argument behind your simple-minded formulation. http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2004/sep/25/usa.secondworldwar I've infected the P-List archives with all sorts of posts on the subject, I'm certain you've already dumped on them. The Pynchon family name ought to be rather well known considering they had the second largest investment house to fall in the first great depression and the first book written in the New World to be burned as heretical in the New World. It is as if their family history was erased from the textbooks. I could go on and perhaps provide leads, but you have been so consistently dismissive of everything I say, I really don't see the point. The further I look into the history of the Pynchon Family in America, the clearer it becomes that's it's central to Thomas Pynchon's writing. -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: malignd at aol.com Subject: Re: Repost: The Big One Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2008 02:53:34 +0000 Size: 11658 URL: From malignd at aol.com Sun Jul 13 22:16:47 2008 From: malignd at aol.com (malignd at aol.com) Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2008 23:16:47 -0400 Subject: Repost: The Big One In-Reply-To: <071420080307.21391.487AC302000C920A0000538F2215575114040A0B0E0A9C0B020E0402070D019D@comcast.net> References: <071420080307.21391.487AC302000C920A0000538F2215575114040A0B0E0A9C0B020E0402070D019D@comcast.net> Message-ID: <8CAB3772F5BFFC6-12D8-B4C@WEBMAIL-DC05.sysops.aol.com> The Pynchon family name ought to be rather well known considering they had the second largest investment house to fall in the first great depression and the first book written in the New World to be burned as heretical in the New World. It is as if their family history was erased from the textbooks. I could go on and perhaps provide leads, but you have been so consistently dismissive of everything I say, I really don't see the point. What does this have to do with the Bush family?  (Feel free to respond with renaissance fair recipes.) -----Original Message----- From: robinlandseadel at comcast.net To: P-list Sent: Sun, 13 Jul 2008 11:07 pm Subject: Re: Repost: The Big One Malign: So let's hear the argument behind your simple-minded formulation. http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2004/sep/25/usa.secondworldwar I've infected the P-List archives with all sorts of posts on the subject, I'm certain you've already dumped on them. The Pynchon family name ought to be rather well known considering they had the second largest investment house to fall in the first great depression and the first book written in the New World to be burned as heretical in the New World. It is as if their family history was erased from the textbooks. I could go on and perhaps provide leads, but you have been so consistently dismissive of everything I say, I really don't see the point. The further I look into the hi story of the Pynchon Family in America, the clearer it becomes that's it's central to Thomas Pynchon's writing. Attached Message From: malignd at aol.com To: pynchon-l at waste.org Subject: Re: Repost: The Big One Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2008 02:53:34 +0000 Since you ask, I have read Richard Sasuly's book, which was the clear source for GR; also, Crime and Punishment of IG Farben by Joseph Borkin.  One I own, the other is in the NY Librarly system. So let's hear the argument behind your simple-minded formulation. -----Original Message----- From: robinlandseadel at comcast.net To: P-list Sent: Sun, 13 Jul 2008 10:19 pm Subject: Re: Repost: The Big One malignd: Just wondering: do you have any knowledge of IG Farben outside of your reading in Pynchon? Yep, all roads lead to Prescott Bush. Any questions? Attached Message From: malignd at aol.com To: pyncho n-l at waste.org Subject: Re: Repost: The Big One Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2008 02:08:22 +0000 <> Just wondering: do you have any knowledge of IG Farben or the Ludlow massacre outside of your reading in Pynchon? If not, your taking his point of view to argue for the correctness of his point of view. -----Original Message----- From: kelber at mindspring.com To: pynchon-l at waste.org Sent: Sun, 13 Jul 2008 6:06 pm Subject: Re: Repost: The Big One No, you're not alone in seeing the moral nuance, Mark. When he writes of IG F arben or the Ludlow Massacre, there's not a20whole lot of room for moral nuance. I don't know of any essays written by anyone (correct me someone if I'm wrong) that show that the Rockefeller's actions in the Ludlow massacre were based on a genuinely moral outlook. You don't need to be a moralizing prig to come down on the side of the miners. When we're talking about whether TRP's writing is morally flat or un-nuanced, the implication is that he's somewhat of a prig or at least a knee-jerker. When he writes about WWI or the aftermath of the Mexican Revolution (Madero presidency) he's aware that there are no good guys to side with. In the sequence where Frank dynamites a moving train in a collision course with Federales, knowingly causing untold human and animal deaths, he's become uncomfortably aware that he's going through the motions (and deadly motions they are); he no longer knows or much cares what he's fighting for. Then TRP's morality kicks in: the morality of the state of grace, the Buddhist viewpoint: (p. 985): " ... suddenly the day had become extradimensional, the country shifted, was no longer the desert abstraction of a map but was speed, air rushing, the smell of smoke and steam, time whose substance grew more condensed as each tick came faster and faster, all perfectly inseparable from Frank's certainty that jumping or not jumping was no longer the point, he belonged to what was happening ..." Faced with the moral chaos of WWI,=2 0the Mexican devolution, the post 9-11 wo rld, the only choice (I think he's saying) is to view the world in its proper perspective, as it is, nothing more. This may be moralizing, but it's neither flat or un-nuanced. Laura -----Original Message----- >From: Mark Kohut >Sent: Jul 13, 2008 10:34 AM >To: David Payne >Cc: pynchon -l >Subject: RE: Repost: "The Big One" > >As, it seems, the lone contrarian voice, I will risk being wrong again: > >There is as much 'moral nuance' in "Against the Day", at least, as in >almost any writer. > >Presenting such nuances may be one of TRPs deepest themes here, i.e. a vision of life in History that has a fuller range---see Light Over the Ranges---than in any other of his books. > > >--- On Sun, 7/13/08, David Payne wrote: > >> From: David Payne >> Subject: RE: Repost: "The Big One" >> To: malignd at aol.com, pynchon-l at waste.org >> Date: Sunday, July 13, 2008, 4:12 AM >> On Fri, 11 Jul 2008 (17:18:29 -0400), malignd at aol.com wrote: >> >> > & gt;> That's funny sh^t, man, but, umm, just for the record, >> when I said "morally flat," I did not mean >> morally void, I meant morally un-nuanced. >> >> Like, for example, a moral vision that collapses everyone >> into Nazis or Abbie Hoffman--that's morally flat. As is >> a vision that sees Capitalism as the Right for all Wrongs. >> Or a vision that sees Lex Luther as the archnemesis of0A>> Superman. Or a vision that sees the Jews as the evil that >> must be exterminated by the Supermen. >> >> Flattening morality is a common trick, practiced by >> revolutionaries (Public Enemy? Bush? ), the status quo >> (Reagan? Bush?), satarists (Bush? Dante?), and simpletons >> (Homer Simpson? Bush?). >> >> Moral nuance is also a common trick, supposedly practiced >> by con men, lovers, and novelists. >> >> I am perfectly willing to concede the point (i.e., Pynchon >> creates novels that place characters in a morally-flat >> universe) if faced with a nuanced (or sinister) argument, >> but--my thinking right now--it seems to me that Pynchon >> often flattens morality into good guys vs. bad guys as a >> satirist's (sp? -- one who creates satire?) tool in >> order to issue moral clarity and comic relieve. >> >> I dig Pynchon, but I do not turn to his novels for solace >> when I feel temptation, a morally gray world tugging me on >> all three sides ... his characters fight the powers that >> be, or they die, or they *are* (gasp!) the powers that be. >> >> So till sweet death do us part, may Dog have mercy. But >> don't tell nobody. The Famous, the Infamous, the Lame - in your browser. Get the TMZ Toolbar Now! The Famous, the Infamous, the Lame - in your browser. Get the TMZ Toolbar Now! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bekker2 at mac.com Sun Jul 13 23:50:00 2008 From: bekker2 at mac.com (Bekah) Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2008 21:50:00 -0700 Subject: Repost: The Big One In-Reply-To: <8CAB36CAA1245A8-12D8-8EF@WEBMAIL-DC05.sysops.aol.com> References: <9425897.1215986797683.JavaMail.root@elwamui-huard.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <8CAB36CAA1245A8-12D8-8EF@WEBMAIL-DC05.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <1EE3A45D-4B40-4F2E-A046-1AEF082DDD30@mac.com> On Jul 13, 2008, at 7:01 PM, malignd at aol.com wrote: > > Just wondering: do you have any knowledge of IG Farben or the > Ludlow massacre outside of your reading in Pynchon? If not, your > taking his point of view to argue for the correctness of his point > of view. I don't know Farben but I've known about Ludlow for a long time (high school?) and like Laura said, there aren't too many ways to nuance the morals unless you go back to the good old standard "What's good for business is good for America." Pynchon did that on page 1001 with Scarsdale's little talk to the L.A.H.D.I.D.A meeting. (heh) Pynchon may not dwell on making sure all sides get serious, un- satirized equal opportunity (and risk being morally ambiguous) , but I do see some nuanced metaphorical references to the light/dark - black/white issue - example: Page 1009 Light as torture / darkness as compassion "The Colorodo militia were in fact giving light a bad name. Military wisdom had it that putting searchlights on the enemy allowed you to see them, while blinding them to you, giving you an inestimable edge both tactical and psychological. In the tents, darkness in that awful winter was sought like warmth or quiet. It seemed like a form of compassion. " Bekah From lorentzen at hotmail.de Mon Jul 14 06:34:00 2008 From: lorentzen at hotmail.de (Kai Frederik Lorentzen) Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2008 13:34:00 +0200 Subject: Repost: "The Big One" In-Reply-To: <4878C8D1.3070308@verizon.net> References: <071220081253.18729.4878A9490008A70E000049292216549976040A0B0E0A9C0B020E0402070D019D@comcast.net> <4878C8D1.3070308@verizon.net> Message-ID: Paul Mackin schrieb: > I personally don't GET why everything in P's oeuvre needs to be tied > together in AtD. Simple guess: It's meant to be P's last book. And may it be like that! While I have a certain affection for Vineland, I think that in both, M&D (read it three times) and AtD, Pynchon is merely a shadow (pun realized and accepted) of himself. The long sentences they do not scan the way they used to. And the uncle-like humor sucks. Before you now start to hyperventilate, please remember that it's not uncommon to dislike the later works of an artist whose earlier works you love. It's called the problem of the old-age-style (Altersstil). Not too long ago somebody asked me offlist about my Pynchon-preferences. Here they come: 1. GR 2. GR 3. VL 4. Col49 5. V Vineland is where Pynchon comes closest to the poetology unfolded in the SL-intro. It's also a pretty interesting novel for my generation. Kai "Jesaja II.4" Lorentzen -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From paul.mackin at verizon.net Mon Jul 14 08:45:12 2008 From: paul.mackin at verizon.net (Paul Mackin) Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2008 09:45:12 -0400 Subject: Repost: The Big One In-Reply-To: <071420080307.21391.487AC302000C920A0000538F2215575114040A0B0E0A9C0B020E0402070D019D@comcast.net> References: <071420080307.21391.487AC302000C920A0000538F2215575114040A0B0E0A9C0B020E0402070D019D@comcast.net> Message-ID: <487B5868.8030703@verizon.net> robinlandseadel at comcast.net wrote: > Malign: > So let's hear the argument behind your simple-minded formulation. > > http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2004/sep/25/usa.secondworldwar > > I've infected the P-List archives with all sorts of posts on the subject, > I'm certain you've already dumped on them. > > The Pynchon family name ought to be rather well known considering they had the second largest investment house to fall in the first great depression and the first book written in the New World to be burned as heretical in the New World. It is as if their family history was erased from the textbooks. I could go on and perhaps provide leads, but you have been so consistently dismissive of everything I say, I really don't see the point. > Sounds like you think there might be some kind of crazy conspiracy to suppress the information. Failures of business ventures of one sort or another were as common as mud during the Great Depression. There's no reason why one such failure should further clutter up our children's textbooks. The only reason people named Pynchon are likely to heard of today is that they are "related" (no matter how distantly) to the novelist. And the market for these other-Pynchon biographies would be confined mostly to the relatively few people who read him. (Students of early New England history are of course familiar with the name.) It seems quite probable that Tom himself grew up without knowledge of the Pynchon Company. How many of us know our second, third, or fourth cousins? Tom is a digger however. I'd bet he learned of the New Englanders before the Wall Street Branch. It was the former who provided something he could run with. And of course I think it is pure malarkey that the grown up Tom feels somehow dispossessed because some sharp dealing distant cousin lost his fortune to some other guys of similar type. Tom wouldn't have gotten any of the loot. I don't pretend to be weighing any of this stuff at all judiciously. But it seems to me no one else is either. P. From kipend at gmail.com Mon Jul 14 10:35:20 2008 From: kipend at gmail.com (David Kipen) Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2008 11:35:20 -0400 Subject: Thomas Pynchon Promotional Broadside In-Reply-To: <830c13f40807111125j5ff2988fx3508976d440d267b@mail.gmail.com> References: <830c13f40807111125j5ff2988fx3508976d440d267b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <3e91a77a0807140835r79c6c696pcae5f10f93387982@mail.gmail.com> Does this mean that everyone who offers Pynchon an award gets a regretful no-thank-you note and an inscribed book? Because I have it on good authority that he's just won the First Annual Pynchon-List Medal for Outstanding Contribution to American Letters, D.M. Kipen, Awards Committee Chair... On Fri, Jul 11, 2008 at 2:25 PM, rich wrote: > this I just found: > > http://sweetbooks.com/p.htm > > PYNCHON, Thomas. Mason and Dixon. NY: Henry Holt, (1997). Hardbound in > dust jacket. First edition. Presentation copy inscribed by Pynchon to > William Plumley, head of the University of Charleston award committee > that chose Pynchon for their Appalachian Medallion: "For William > Plumley, With appreciation and thanks. Thomas Pynchon." TOGETHER WITH > a Typed Letter Signed from Pynchon declining the award and presenting > the book. One quarto page on Mason and Dixon letterhead dated June 23, > 1997, in full: "Dear Mr. Plumley, Regretfully, I must decline the > Appalachian Medallion. Rationally or otherwise, I have a history of > trying to avoid, whenever possible, all such awards. I am grateful to > you for the chance to do so ahead of time, as well as for the honor, > of course, of even being thought of on the same list as Eudora Welty > and Robert Penn Warren. I do, however, hope that you will accept, with > my thanks, the copy of Mason and Dixon enclosed. Part of the novel is > set in Appalachia---I've tried in it to remain true to the spirit of > the region and the people, whom I continue to admire and respect. > Yours truly, Thomas Pynchon." Books signed by Pynchon seldom surface > on the market and autograph material by him is among the most > difficult of any living author. There have been a few known instances > where he's donated a signed book to a charity auction, but genuine > presentation copies of his books are truly rare, and rarer still is > Pynchon correspondence---and this letter is especially nice. Along > with the literary references and mention of his own book, Pynchon > explains his ethos of anonymity that has caused him to studiously > avoid awards, interviews, and photographs throughout his career. A > search of auction records shows no evidence of a Pynchon letter ever > having appeared at auction. A superb pair of Pynchon items, the only > inscribed book with a presentation letter that we know of. Fine. > SKB-13851 > $37500 > > Rich > > On Fri, Jul 11, 2008 at 1:50 PM, Dave Monroe > wrote: > > For sale: Thomas Pynchon promotional broadside celebrating the > > appearance of Gravity's Rainbow. "DEAR THOMAS PYNCHON, WE THOUGHT > > YOU'D LIKE TO SEE THE FIRST REVIEWS FOR YOUR BOOK!" Single sheet, > > measuring 17 by 22 inches. It is illustrated in black and white with > > the front panel and spine of the dust jacket for the first edition of > > Gravity's Rainbow. In addition the broadside prints excerpts from some > > reviews of Thomas Pynchon's Gravity's Rainbow. Folded a few times, > > else fine. Same item lists on abebooks for $575. > > > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=280244927801 > > > -- All finest, David Kipen Literature Director, National Reading Initiatives Blog: www.arts.gov/bigreadblog National Endowment for the Arts 1100 Pennsylvania Avenue #722 Washington DC, 20506 Email: kipend at arts.gov 202-682-5787 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From paul.mackin at verizon.net Mon Jul 14 10:52:07 2008 From: paul.mackin at verizon.net (Paul Mackin) Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2008 11:52:07 -0400 Subject: Repost: The Big One In-Reply-To: <9425897.1215986797683.JavaMail.root@elwamui-huard.atl.sa.earthlink.net> References: <9425897.1215986797683.JavaMail.root@elwamui-huard.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <487B7627.9010502@verizon.net> kelber at mindspring.com wrote: > No, you're not alone in seeing the moral nuance, Mark. When he writes of IG Farben or the Ludlow Massacre, there's not a whole lot of room for moral nuance. I don't know of any essays written by anyone (correct me someone if I'm wrong) that show that the Rockefeller's actions in the Ludlow massacre were based on a genuinely moral outlook. You don't need to be a moralizing prig to come down on the side of the miners. When we're talking about whether TRP's writing is morally flat or un-nuanced, the implication is that he's somewhat of a prig or at least a knee-jerker. > > When he writes about WWI or the aftermath of the Mexican Revolution (Madero presidency) he's aware that there are no good guys to side with. In the sequence where Frank dynamites a moving train in a collision course with Federales, knowingly causing untold human and animal deaths, he's become uncomfortably aware that he's going through the motions (and deadly motions they are); he no longer knows or much cares what he's fighting for. Then TRP's morality kicks in: the morality of the state of grace, the Buddhist viewpoint: > > (p. 985): " ... suddenly the day had become extradimensional, the country shifted, was no longer the desert abstraction of a map but was speed, air rushing, the smell of smoke and steam, time whose substance grew more condensed as each tick came faster and faster, all perfectly inseparable from Frank's certainty that jumping or not jumping was no longer the point, he belonged to what was happening ..." > > Faced with the moral chaos of WWI, the Mexican devolution, the post 9-11 world, the only choice (I think he's saying) is to view the world in its proper perspective, as it is, nothing more. This may be moralizing, but it's neither flat or un-nuanced. > > Laura > The moral judgments you cite are the judgments of History, not those principally of Pynchon. The judgments were made long before he came on the scene. He uses these historic situations as backdrop for his novel, but I don't think he would like it much if he thought people were reading him for further long laments over the many injustices of the past. Regardless of how well written. And of course it would be written well. He must know his recitations read better than those of the historians. But needless to say, we want more. So what we should be discussing is how the author goes beyond what History already "teaches" and what we all would agree on even if we never read Pynchon. e.g., The intricately worked out character of Weissmann, whose passion for reaching the stars allows him to throw off conventional morality with great elan. Let me put it this way. I don't think Pynchon necessary means for us to say tut, tut, tut while Gottfried is being entombed in the rocket. Weissmann is an uber-mensch. (of course so was Hitler) Or the poor man's uber-menchen. The bomb throwing anarchists who have convinced themselves that bourgeois lives (very loosely defined) aren't worth considering in the collateral damage. That's really spooky but a tiny bit uplifting at the same time. Two obvious examples of P-moral ambiguity. There must be a zillion more. From kelber at mindspring.com Mon Jul 14 12:25:24 2008 From: kelber at mindspring.com (kelber at mindspring.com) Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2008 13:25:24 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Repost: The Big One Message-ID: <3368646.1216056324670.JavaMail.root@elwamui-huard.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Why would I want to read anything other than Pynchon? Like all of the other frothing-at-the-mouth Pynchon-zealots on the p-list, I interpret Pynchon as The Word. Calling on any source materials, secondary readings or prior knowledge is tantamount to heresy. The fact is that IG Farben was a nice little Mom and Pop operation striving to invent a mild baby aspirin when, through no fault of their own, they invented Zyklon-B. Then nasty-minded knee-jerk, commie-liberal Thomas Pynchon (he of the flat, un-nuanced morality)and his howling hordes of adulating p-listers DISTORTED these nice folks' record, deliberately making them look BAD and (gulp) un-nuanced. It's up to you, Malignd, to set the record straight. Save the world from the oppressive forces of Pynchonism! Laura -----Original Message----- >From: malignd at aol.com > >Just wondering: do you have any knowledge of IG Farben or the Ludlow massacre outside of your reading in Pynchon? If not, your taking his point of view to argue for the correctness of his point of view. > > > > > > > >-----Original Message----- >From: kelber at mindspring.com >To: pynchon-l at waste.org >Sent: Sun, 13 Jul 2008 6:06 pm >Subject: Re: Repost: The Big One > > > > > > > > >No, you're not alone in seeing the moral nuance, Mark. When he writes of IG >Farben or the Ludlow Massacre, there's not a whole lot of room for moral nuance. >I don't know of any essays written by anyone (correct me someone if I'm wrong) >that show that the Rockefeller's actions in the Ludlow massacre were based on a >genuinely moral outlook. You don't need to be a moralizing prig to come down on >the side of the miners. When we're talking about whether TRP's writing is >morally flat or un-nuanced, the implication is that he's somewhat of a prig or >at least a knee-jerker. > >When he writes about WWI or the aftermath of the Mexican Revolution (Madero >presidency) he's aware that there are no good guys to side with. In the >sequence where Frank dynamites a moving train in a collision course with >Federales, knowingly causing untold human and animal deaths, he's become >uncomfortably aware that he's going through the motions (and deadly motions they >are); he no longer knows or much cares what he's fighting for. Then TRP's >morality kicks in: the morality of the state of grace, the Buddhist viewpoint: > >(p. 985): " ... suddenly the day had become extradimensional, the country >shifted, was no longer the desert abstraction of a map but was speed, air >rushing, the smell of smoke and steam, time whose substance grew more condensed >as each tick came faster and faster, all perfectly inseparable from Frank's >certainty that jumping or not jumping was no longer the point, he belonged to >what was happening ..." > >Faced with the moral chaos of WWI, the Mexican devolution, the post 9-11 world, >the only choice (I think he's saying) is to view the world in its proper >perspective, as it is, nothing more. This may be moralizing, but it's neither >flat or un-nuanced. > >Laura > >-----Original Message----- >>From: Mark Kohut >>Sent: Jul 13, 2008 10:34 AM >>To: David Payne >>Cc: pynchon -l >>Subject: RE: Repost: "The Big One" >> >>As, it seems, the lone contrarian voice, I will risk being wrong again: >> >>There is as much 'moral nuance' in "Against the Day", at least, as in >>almost any writer. >> >>Presenting such nuances may be one of TRPs deepest themes here, i.e. a vision >of life in History that has a fuller range---see Light Over the Ranges---than in >any other of his books. >> >> >>--- On Sun, 7/13/08, David Payne wrote: >> >>> From: David Payne >>> Subject: RE: Repost: "The Big One" >>> To: malignd at aol.com, pynchon-l at waste.org >>> Date: Sunday, July 13, 2008, 4:12 AM >>> On Fri, 11 Jul 2008 (17:18:29 -0400), malignd at aol.com wrote: >>> >>> >> >>> That's funny sh^t, man, but, umm, just for the record, >>> when I said "morally flat," I did not mean >>> morally void, I meant morally un-nuanced. >>> >>> Like, for example, a moral vision that collapses everyone >>> into Nazis or Abbie Hoffman--that's morally flat. As is >>> a vision that sees Capitalism as the Right for all Wrongs. >>> Or a vision that sees Lex Luther as the archnemesis of >>> Superman. Or a vision that sees the Jews as the evil that >>> must be exterminated by the Supermen. >>> >>> Flattening morality is a common trick, practiced by >>> revolutionaries (Public Enemy? Bush? ), the status quo >>> (Reagan? Bush?), satarists (Bush? Dante?), and simpletons >>> (Homer Simpson? Bush?). >>> >>> Moral nuance is also a common trick, supposedly practiced >>> by con men, lovers, and novelists. >>> >>> I am perfectly willing to concede the point (i.e., Pynchon >>> creates novels that place characters in a morally-flat >>> universe) if faced with a nuanced (or sinister) argument, >>> but--my thinking right now--it seems to me that Pynchon >>> often flattens morality into good guys vs. bad guys as a >>> satirist's (sp? -- one who creates satire?) tool in >>> order to issue moral clarity and comic relieve. >>> >>> I dig Pynchon, but I do not turn to his novels for solace >>> when I feel temptation, a morally gray world tugging me on >>> all three sides ... his characters fight the powers that >>> be, or they die, or they *are* (gasp!) the powers that be. >>> >>> So till sweet death do us part, may Dog have mercy. But >>> don't tell nobody. > > > > > > > From scuffling at gmail.com Mon Jul 14 14:02:35 2008 From: scuffling at gmail.com (Henry) Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2008 15:02:35 -0400 Subject: NP: Lou Reed's Berlin Message-ID: <008e01c8e5e4$2df711d0$89e53570$@com> THE New York Man filmed by Schnabel (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0773603/ ): http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1093836/ Oh boy, oh boy! I can't imagine it will stay in theaters very long, so I'll catch it right away. Lou Reed and the Velvet Underground are/were some of the most intelligent music on plastic/vinyl... Speaking of Lou on film, did anyone ever see "Get Crazy?" http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0085551/ Henry Mu Information, Media, and Technology Consultant http://my.barackobama.com/page/community/blog/henrymu From against.the.dave at gmail.com Mon Jul 14 14:15:02 2008 From: against.the.dave at gmail.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2008 14:15:02 -0500 Subject: The Man with the Iron Heart Message-ID: http://www.randomhouse.com/delrey/catalog/display.pperl?isbn=9780345504340 From markekohut at yahoo.com Mon Jul 14 14:48:11 2008 From: markekohut at yahoo.com (Mark Kohut) Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2008 12:48:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Repost: The Big One Message-ID: <735517.53066.qm@web38402.mail.mud.yahoo.com> A Flat-Out, so to speak, challenge to moral flatlanders (and all )p-listers: Gloss just p. 985, the very thematic "Frank and the train wreck' with full moral nuance.....read it as Pynchon himself, within earlier sections of "Against the Day", has shown us how. I'm tweaking simple verbal nuances myself at my busy moment in time. But will send. New Aunts. --- On Mon, 7/14/08, Paul Mackin wrote: > From: Paul Mackin > Subject: Re: Repost: The Big One > To: pynchon-l at waste.org > Date: Monday, July 14, 2008, 11:52 AM > kelber at mindspring.com wrote: > > No, you're not alone in seeing the moral nuance, > Mark. When he writes of IG Farben or the Ludlow Massacre, > there's not a whole lot of room for moral nuance. I > don't know of any essays written by anyone (correct me > someone if I'm wrong) that show that the > Rockefeller's actions in the Ludlow massacre were based > on a genuinely moral outlook. You don't need to be a > moralizing prig to come down on the side of the miners. > When we're talking about whether TRP's writing is > morally flat or un-nuanced, the implication is that > he's somewhat of a prig or at least a knee-jerker. > > > > When he writes about WWI or the aftermath of the > Mexican Revolution (Madero presidency) he's aware that > there are no good guys to side with. In the sequence where > Frank dynamites a moving train in a collision course with > Federales, knowingly causing untold human and animal > deaths, he's become uncomfortably aware that he's > going through the motions (and deadly motions they are); he > no longer knows or much cares what he's fighting for. > Then TRP's morality kicks in: the morality of the state > of grace, the Buddhist viewpoint: > > > > (p. 985): " ... suddenly the day had become > extradimensional, the country shifted, was no longer the > desert abstraction of a map but was speed, air rushing, the > smell of smoke and steam, time whose substance grew more > condensed as each tick came faster and faster, all > perfectly inseparable from Frank's certainty that > jumping or not jumping was no longer the point, he belonged > to what was happening ..." > > > > Faced with the moral chaos of WWI, the Mexican > devolution, the post 9-11 world, the only choice (I think > he's saying) is to view the world in its proper > perspective, as it is, nothing more. This may be > moralizing, but it's neither flat or un-nuanced. > > > > Laura > > > > > The moral judgments you cite are the judgments of History, > not those > principally of Pynchon. The judgments were made long > before he came on > the scene. He uses these historic situations as backdrop > for his novel, > but I don't think he would like it much if he thought > people were > reading him for further long laments over the many > injustices of the > past. Regardless of how well written. And of course it > would be written > well. He must know his recitations read better than those > of the historians. > > But needless to say, we want more. So what we should be > discussing is > how the author goes beyond what History already > "teaches" and what we > all would agree on even if we never read Pynchon. > > e.g., > > The intricately worked out character of Weissmann, whose > passion for > reaching the stars allows him to throw off conventional > morality with > great elan. Let me put it this way. I don't think > Pynchon necessary > means for us to say tut, tut, tut while Gottfried is > being entombed > in the rocket. Weissmann is an uber-mensch. (of course so > was Hitler) > > Or the poor man's uber-menchen. The bomb throwing > anarchists who have > convinced themselves that bourgeois lives (very loosely > defined) aren't > worth considering in the collateral damage. That's > really spooky but a > tiny bit uplifting at the same time. > > Two obvious examples of P-moral ambiguity. There must be a > zillion more. From robinlandseadel at comcast.net Mon Jul 14 15:53:45 2008 From: robinlandseadel at comcast.net (robinlandseadel at comcast.net) Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2008 20:53:45 +0000 Subject: Repost: The Big One Message-ID: <071420082053.7029.487BBCD90002330A00001B752216525856040A0B0E0A9C0B020E0402070D019D@comcast.net> Thanks Laura, I needed that. Yeah, I've read plenty on I.G. Farben. Ties right in to the "New World Order", in case such things interest you. -------------- Original message ---------------------- From: kelber at mindspring.com > Why would I want to read anything other than Pynchon? Like all of the other > frothing-at-the-mouth Pynchon-zealots on the p-list, I interpret Pynchon as The > Word. Calling on any source materials, secondary readings or prior knowledge is > tantamount to heresy. The fact is that IG Farben was a nice little Mom and Pop > operation striving to invent a mild baby aspirin when, through no fault of their > own, they invented Zyklon-B. Then nasty-minded knee-jerk, commie-liberal Thomas > Pynchon (he of the flat, un-nuanced morality)and his howling hordes of adulating > p-listers DISTORTED these nice folks' record, deliberately making them look BAD > and (gulp) un-nuanced. It's up to you, Malignd, to set the record straight. > Save the world from the oppressive forces of Pynchonism! > > Laura From markekohut at yahoo.com Mon Jul 14 18:12:34 2008 From: markekohut at yahoo.com (Mark Kohut) Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2008 16:12:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: WASTE software Message-ID: <593261.89610.qm@web38405.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Time to WASTE? p2pnet.net - Ontario,Canada Frankel called it WASTE after Thomas Pynchon’s WASTE (from The Crying of Lot 49), which is a renegade underground postal system operating in plain sight of ... See all stories on this topic From dpayne1912 at hotmail.com Mon Jul 14 19:00:11 2008 From: dpayne1912 at hotmail.com (David Payne) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2008 00:00:11 +0000 Subject: Repost: The Big One In-Reply-To: <9425897.1215986797683.JavaMail.root@elwamui-huard.atl.sa.earthlink.net> References: <9425897.1215986797683.JavaMail.root@elwamui-huard.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: On Sun, 13 Jul 2008 (18:06:37 -0400), Laura (kelber at mindspring.com) wrote > When we're talking about whether TRP's writing is morally flat or un-nuanced, the implication is that he's somewhat of a prig or at least a knee-jerker. That's not at all my implication. First, I was talking about the moral universe that Pynchon's character inhabit -- I was not talking about Pynchon's personal characterists as a human being. Second, as I failed to point out, labelling "morally flat" as bad and "morally nuanced" as good is a bit silly. Perhaps I should have said "morally distilled" instead of "morally flat" and said "morally abiguous" instead of "morally nuanced"? Third, is it possible to discuss Pynchon's use of moral distillation (i.e., removing moral ambiguity and deception by exposing Evil and Good with great clarity) as a means of presenting a morally nuanced vision? In other words, is there a difference between Pynchon's moral vision in a work of fiction and the moral universe that the characters inhabit? So there's this guy called "Rocket Man" who wears a cap and does battle with Grand Evils ... that, to me, sounds like a character inhabiting a morally flat--er, morally distilled--universe. But does the novel also contain a nuanced moral vision that is crafted by Pynchon's expectation of the reader's interaction with the the fictional and historical elements of GR? I'd like to say yes, but everytime I try to articulate examples, it all just sounds like a bunch of BS--so it beats me, quite frankly. Anyhow, the example of Frank blowing up the train was a better response to my poorly articulated thinking. Do we see someone suffering moral quandries and does this struggle lead to moral evolution? But still, we're talking about a guy who's having second thoughts about blowing up a friggin' train full of people , not the moral struggles of Jimmy Carter's lustful heart (talk about yr moral distillation!). (Or maybe we're actually talking about the way the passage suggests the moral amiguity of the situation? The good and the bad on the two sides of the tossed coin?) Anyhow, I'm probably just confusing Pynchon's flat characters with flat morality. My bad. (Just a joke foax, only kidding, satire....) _________________________________________________________________ The i’m Talkaton. Can 30-days of conversation change the world? http://www.imtalkathon.com/?source=EML_WLH_Talkathon_ChangeWorld From kelber at mindspring.com Mon Jul 14 22:44:27 2008 From: kelber at mindspring.com (kelber at mindspring.com) Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2008 23:44:27 -0400 (GMT-04:00) Subject: Repost: The Big One Message-ID: <28153830.1216093467828.JavaMail.root@elwamui-huard.atl.sa.earthlink.net> If you're expecting an impassioned defense of TRP's ability to draw well-rounded characters, you won't be getting it from me. Laura -----Original Message----- >From: David Payne >Anyhow, I'm probably just confusing Pynchon's flat characters with flat morality. My bad. > >(Just a joke foax, only kidding, satire....) >_________________________________________________________________ From isread at btinternet.com Tue Jul 15 00:10:29 2008 From: isread at btinternet.com (Paul Nightingale) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2008 06:10:29 +0100 Subject: Atdtda28: Local look, 783-784 Message-ID: <000001c8e639$19cf75d0$4d6e6170$@com> Thus far Ch55 has featured reactions to the Event, how to describe/represent it. Here, we join Kit and Prance mid-scene, their exchange revealing a series of events--Prance being shot at, repeatedly--of which we know nothing . Kit asks Prance to judge, ie represent different experiences of being shot at: "Was it as much fun as last time ..." etc; as with the Event, then, what we know is the result of readings offered in the text. It transpires that Prance resembles, to some, a Japanese spy, due to a misreading of "[s]cholarly curiosity". Prance, meanwhile, has his own stereotyped image of the Japanese, one that allows him to distance himself. Adopting a relativist outlook, Kit mockingly suggests Prance will become Japanese if others think it. Prance, then, will be denied any say in the matter; and thus silenced he is associated, somehow, with the Event, each being said to originate in Japan. In the final paragraph, over the page on 784, the narrative adopts Kit's pov. The section opens by inserting the reader into an exchange taking place between Kit and Prance; here, the reader is distanced from Prance to gain access to Kit's thoughts. Previously, Kit had mocked Prance's concern at being shot at; here, "with deep anxiety" he has returned to Ostend and the Q-weapon. Having joked that Prance might be held responsible for the Event, he now considers the possibility that he himself is, somehow, responsible. Cf. the "connected set" on 782. From isread at btinternet.com Tue Jul 15 00:52:59 2008 From: isread at btinternet.com (Paul Nightingale) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2008 06:52:59 +0100 Subject: Atdtda28: Accounts differed, 784-785 Message-ID: <000101c8e63f$09c4a6f0$1d4df4d0$@com> A survey of consequences, the Event's aftermath. Aboard the Bol'shaia Igra Padzhitnoff has considered "eyewitnesses living below" (781). Subsequently, the narrative has joined Kit and Prance at ground level; but they remain outsiders distanced from the local population. Here, the overview narrative considers "crazed Raskol'niki", and then reindeer and "their ancient powers of flight"; by implication it is now humans who are outsiders. The lengthy opening paragraph provides mosquitoes and wolves with knowing agency, before introducing "[o]ceangoing ships unmanned by visible crews". In the previous section Kit-as-mathematician refers to the Quaternion alternative to "what we think of as ordinary space" (783); here, the narrative, without necessarily adopting Kit's pov, takes up the question of displacement, eg Tierra del Fuego in Siberia, the ship that has run aground (784). In this novel, since the publication of the blurb, a key question has concerned the how of it all, how a post-realist writer would choose to represent the 'travel' that was highlighted at the outset. The current section--written less as montage than as bricolage--indicates succinctly how the novel has gone about answering such questions. Such phenomena as are described are given as aspects of local folklore. The mosquitoes "[are] observed congregating in large swarms at local taverns"; the wolves "[are] reported to be especially fond of Matthew 7:15"; and "[e]ntire villages came to the conclusion that they were not where they ought to be", evidently after some discussion. As with Prance being though Japanese (783), the only reality is that which has been rendered discursively, eg "reports of a figure walking through the aftermath" (785). Hence, "... as the Event receded in memory, arguments arose as to whether this or that had even happened at all". In the final sentence of this section Kit and Prance reappear with "the forest ... back to normal": normality defined in human/rational terms, eg "the animals fallen speechless again, tree-shadows again pointing in their accustomed directions". The locals are left with the mysterious loss of Magyakan; while Kit and Prance are compelled to go on, to move forward, whatever that means. In neither case is 'rational' explanation possible. From dpayne1912 at hotmail.com Tue Jul 15 01:32:39 2008 From: dpayne1912 at hotmail.com (David Payne) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2008 06:32:39 +0000 Subject: Repost: The Big One In-Reply-To: <28153830.1216093467828.JavaMail.root@elwamui-huard.atl.sa.earthlink.net> References: <28153830.1216093467828.JavaMail.root@elwamui-huard.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 14 Jul 2008 (23:44:27 -0400), Laura (kelber at mindspring.com) wrote: > If you're expecting an impassioned defense of TRP's ability to draw well-rounded characters, you won't be getting it from me. Well, no, actually, I wasn't, which is why I said it was a joke, satire. And that's twice I've apparently unintentionally implied something that I did not mean to convey. I'll try asking questions for the third time and then just shut up, which seems, perhaps, to be desired. Sticking with the topic at hand, don't most writers create rounded characters by presenting a moral dilemma and then demonstrating the character's inner struggle and the resulting moral evolution? Does Pynchon do this? If not, why? If so, where and why? (Some postings have already answered this as "yes"; specifically, both Laura and Mark pointed to Frank and the train crash on page 985.) Finally, does Pynchon's moral view point extend beyond the reaction of his characters' individual personal reactions to their individual dilemmas? Please take my comments a face value, b/c my son bought ice cream from an ice-cream truck for the first time yesterday. Boy-oh-boy was he ever excited to learn that people actually drive around in trucks full of ice cream on hot summer days, trying to unload their merchandise. _________________________________________________________________ Making the world a better place one message at a time. http://www.imtalkathon.com/?source=EML_WLH_Talkathon_BetterPlace From bekker2 at mac.com Tue Jul 15 02:41:00 2008 From: bekker2 at mac.com (Bekah) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2008 00:41:00 -0700 Subject: Repost: The Big One In-Reply-To: References: <28153830.1216093467828.JavaMail.root@elwamui-huard.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <672BCA3A-FB42-4E42-9CD5-3F9B57FAFF20@mac.com> On Jul 14, 2008, at 11:32 PM, David Payne wrote: > > Sticking with the topic at hand, don't most writers create rounded > characters by presenting a moral dilemma and then demonstrating the > character's inner struggle and the resulting moral evolution? No, there are many writers who don't create rounded characters by presenting moral dilemmas. Detective and science fiction novels don't usually have rounded characters - for a couple entire genres. Their focus is on plot and ideas or technology (there are some exceptions, of course). And some novelists may want to tackle issues other than the ones where a couple well-rounded characters demonstrate personal character growth through moral problem resolution. (And just about all novels have several "stock" type characters - flattish, undeveloped/under-developed ) so that the focus is on two or three main ones. Gabriel Garcia Marquez has flattish characters (although this may be in the mind of the beholder) because he wants the focus on the folkish tales which make up his magical realism. Don DeLillo has flattish characters because he wants the focus on the "big-issue" themes - media, paranoia, etc. Actually, I think quite a lot of post-modern fiction has flattish characters because the author is putting emphasis on the style or structure as well as "big issues." Alienation can sometimes come off as flat. I think Pynchon used flat characters in much of his fiction so that he could explore other very "generalized" issues like the patterns of history, the beliefs in/of technology, systems of belief, religion and the occult, recurring class and cultural issues, stuff like that. I think he uses a lot of characters in his books so that he can dig into the themes from more angles. Who needs two well rounded characters developing a theme of class issues or "revisionist/ alternative" history when you can have a dozen flat ones coming at it from a dozen perspectives? Bekah (and the rest of David's post: > Does Pynchon do this? > > If not, why? If so, where and why? (Some postings have already > answered this as "yes"; specifically, both Laura and Mark pointed > to Frank and the train crash on page 985.) > > Finally, does Pynchon's moral view point extend beyond the reaction > of his characters' individual personal reactions to their > individual dilemmas? > > Please take my comments a face value, b/c my son bought ice cream > from an ice-cream truck for the first time yesterday. Boy-oh-boy > was he ever excited to learn that people actually drive around in > trucks full of ice cream on hot summer days, trying to unload their > merchandise. > > From paul.mackin at verizon.net Tue Jul 15 06:03:36 2008 From: paul.mackin at verizon.net (Paul Mackin) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2008 07:03:36 -0400 Subject: Repost: The Big One In-Reply-To: References: <28153830.1216093467828.JavaMail.root@elwamui-huard.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <487C8408.1010701@verizon.net> David Payne wrote: > On Mon, 14 Jul 2008 (23:44:27 -0400), Laura (kelber at mindspring.com) wrote: > > >> If you're expecting an impassioned defense of TRP's ability to draw well-rounded characters, you won't be getting it from me. >> > > Well, no, actually, I wasn't, which is why I said it was a joke, satire. > > And that's twice I've apparently unintentionally implied something that I did not mean to convey. > > I'll try asking questions for the third time and then just shut up, which seems, perhaps, to be desired. > > Sticking with the topic at hand, don't most writers create rounded characters by presenting a moral dilemma and then demonstrating the character's inner struggle and the resulting moral evolution? > > Does Pynchon do this? > > If not, why? If so, where and why? (Some postings have already answered this as "yes"; specifically, both Laura and Mark pointed to Frank and the train crash on page 985.) > > Finally, does Pynchon's moral view point extend beyond the reaction of his characters' individual personal reactions to their individual dilemmas? > > Please take my comments a face value, b/c my son bought ice cream from an ice-cream truck for the first time yesterday. Boy-oh-boy was he ever excited to learn that people actually drive around in trucks full of ice cream on hot summer days, trying to unload their merchandise. > > > I want to commend David P. for attempting--and succeeding to the extent humanly possible--to bring some intelligibility to this thread. It had been such a muddle. The suggested change in terminology set forth in his previous post is helpful. I still haven't figured out how to say what i personally think on the topic. I do pretty well know what I DON'T think. P. From markekohut at yahoo.com Tue Jul 15 06:57:11 2008 From: markekohut at yahoo.com (Mark Kohut) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2008 04:57:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Repost: The Big One In-Reply-To: <487C8408.1010701@verizon.net> Message-ID: <700775.83210.qm@web38408.mail.mud.yahoo.com> A few obs. I have often thought that the non-rounded characters in much of Pynchon's work is because we real human beings aren't too "round" in our current degraded world,in Pynchon's worledview. What about Mason & Dixon? Are they not among the 'round" characters? And is it because they lived when they could be, so to speak? I do think that is part of Pynchon's full works view. A: Yes, there is an narrator, an authorial presence in Pynchon's work that contains an (often moral) perspective that is NOT his characters' perspectives. Often, it is what James, (Henry) called an effaced narrator (or limited omniscience) wherein what we are being told by the narrator is the same as the (textual) omniscience of the character. It does mean we have to read with full attentionn to sort,I think, no surprise here. [example: In V., when the photographer interrupts Benny in bed right before the big O, as the "narrator" speaks Benny's mind. ] Against the Day is LOADED with perspectives on the characters from LEVELS of narrator consciousness, "omniscience", since parts of the book are another Chums adventure, a written story. Most characters' stories are told by a narrator, an author, who has/embeds a perspective on them---and, as in most fiction, we judge by moral standards as well. We have yet to see most of the author's perspectives on many of the characters fully, I say speaking for myself at least. --- On Tue, 7/15/08, Paul Mackin wrote: > From: Paul Mackin > Subject: Re: Repost: The Big One > To: pynchon-l at waste.org > Date: Tuesday, July 15, 2008, 7:03 AM > David Payne wrote: > > On Mon, 14 Jul 2008 (23:44:27 -0400), Laura > (kelber at mindspring.com) wrote: > > > > > >> If you're expecting an impassioned defense of > TRP's ability to draw well-rounded characters, you > won't be getting it from me. > >> > > > > Well, no, actually, I wasn't, which is why I said > it was a joke, satire. > > > > And that's twice I've apparently > unintentionally implied something that I did not mean to > convey. > > > > I'll try asking questions for the third time and > then just shut up, which seems, perhaps, to be desired. > > > > Sticking with the topic at hand, don't most > writers create rounded characters by presenting a moral > dilemma and then demonstrating the character's inner > struggle and the resulting moral evolution? > > > > Does Pynchon do this? > > > > If not, why? If so, where and why? (Some postings have > already answered this as "yes"; specifically, both > Laura and Mark pointed to Frank and the train crash on page > 985.) > > > > Finally, does Pynchon's moral view point extend > beyond the reaction of his characters' individual > personal reactions to their individual dilemmas? > > > > Please take my comments a face value, b/c my son > bought ice cream from an ice-cream truck for the first time > yesterday. Boy-oh-boy was he ever excited to learn that > people actually drive around in trucks full of ice cream on > hot summer days, trying to unload their merchandise. > > > > > > > > I want to commend David P. for attempting--and succeeding > to the extent > humanly possible--to bring some intelligibility to this > thread. It had > been such a muddle. The suggested change in terminology set > forth in his > previous post is helpful. I still haven't figured out > how to say what i > personally think on the topic. I do pretty well know what > I DON'T think. > > P. From kelber at mindspring.com Tue Jul 15 09:14:20 2008 From: kelber at mindspring.com (kelber at mindspring.com) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2008 10:14:20 -0400 (GMT-04:00) Subject: Repost: The Big One Message-ID: <29710890.1216131261183.JavaMail.root@elwamui-huard.atl.sa.earthlink.net> I've never been bothered by the lack of "roundedness" of TRP's characters until ATD. As Bekah said, he's more interested in exploring themes, and I don't have a problem with that. He's often done pretty well with his characters. Slothrop is pretty endearing, as a kind of goofy, good-natured hedonist, and I think TRP did a great job of portraying the friendship and even love between Mason and Dixon. The final scene where Mason goes to visit the invalid Dixon is extremely moving. What disappoints me about ATD is the lack of a protagonist (or even a dual protagonist, as in V or M&D). I understand the intellectual choice: he's writing about anarchy and chaos and [obliquely, (I'm guessing) relativity and quantum theory], so the lack of a central protagonist or even narrator emphasizes these themes. Still, there are too many characters with too much overlap between them. What roles do Reef and Kit and Dally play that couldn't be picked up by others? He needs the bodies to circumnavigate the globe but why not have Yasmeen seek Shambhala (and her father) in Central Asia, ultimately encountering Tunguska, wrestling with math as a spiritual versus a destructive force. Cyprian can have the Balkans: the encroachment of technology (the Interdikt) on the indigenous and spiritual. Frank has Mexico: when does anarchism cross the line from justice to murder as he grapples with the weight of needing to avenge his father's death. Tossing Reef, Kit and Dally into the mix obscures rather than enlightens these central issues. Just a thought, anyway. Laura -----Original Message----- >From: Mark Kohut > >A few obs. > >I have often thought that the non-rounded characters in much of Pynchon's work is because we real human beings aren't too "round" in our current degraded world,in Pynchon's worledview. > >What about Mason & Dixon? Are they not among the 'round" characters? And is it because they lived when they could be, so to speak? I do think that is part of Pynchon's full works view. > >A: Yes, there is an narrator, an authorial presence in Pynchon's work that >contains an (often moral) perspective that is NOT his characters' perspectives. Often, it is what James, (Henry) called an effaced narrator >(or limited omniscience) wherein what we are being told by the narrator is the same as the (textual) omniscience of the character. It does mean we have to read with full attentionn to sort,I think, no surprise here. > >[example: In V., when the photographer interrupts Benny in bed right before the big O, as the "narrator" speaks Benny's mind. ] > >Against the Day is LOADED with perspectives on the characters from LEVELS of narrator consciousness, "omniscience", since parts of the book are another Chums adventure, a written story. Most characters' stories are told by a narrator, an author, who has/embeds a perspective on them---and, as in most fiction, we judge by moral standards as well. We have yet to see >most of the author's perspectives on many of the characters fully, I say speaking for myself at least. > > >--- On Tue, 7/15/08, Paul Mackin wrote: > >> From: Paul Mackin >> Subject: Re: Repost: The Big One >> To: pynchon-l at waste.org >> Date: Tuesday, July 15, 2008, 7:03 AM >> David Payne wrote: >> > On Mon, 14 Jul 2008 (23:44:27 -0400), Laura >> (kelber at mindspring.com) wrote: >> > >> > >> >> If you're expecting an impassioned defense of >> TRP's ability to draw well-rounded characters, you >> won't be getting it from me. >> >> >> > >> > Well, no, actually, I wasn't, which is why I said >> it was a joke, satire. >> > >> > And that's twice I've apparently >> unintentionally implied something that I did not mean to >> convey. >> > >> > I'll try asking questions for the third time and >> then just shut up, which seems, perhaps, to be desired. >> > >> > Sticking with the topic at hand, don't most >> writers create rounded characters by presenting a moral >> dilemma and then demonstrating the character's inner >> struggle and the resulting moral evolution? >> > >> > Does Pynchon do this? >> > >> > If not, why? If so, where and why? (Some postings have >> already answered this as "yes"; specifically, both >> Laura and Mark pointed to Frank and the train crash on page >> 985.) >> > >> > Finally, does Pynchon's moral view point extend >> beyond the reaction of his characters' individual >> personal reactions to their individual dilemmas? >> > >> > Please take my comments a face value, b/c my son >> bought ice cream from an ice-cream truck for the first time >> yesterday. Boy-oh-boy was he ever excited to learn that >> people actually drive around in trucks full of ice cream on >> hot summer days, trying to unload their merchandise. >> > >> > >> > >> >> I want to commend David P. for attempting--and succeeding >> to the extent >> humanly possible--to bring some intelligibility to this >> thread. It had >> been such a muddle. The suggested change in terminology set >> forth in his >> previous post is helpful. I still haven't figured out >> how to say what i >> personally think on the topic. I do pretty well know what >> I DON'T think. >> >> P. > > > From g.i.s.pursey at reading.ac.uk Tue Jul 15 10:30:47 2008 From: g.i.s.pursey at reading.ac.uk (Guy Ian Scott Pursey) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2008 16:30:47 +0100 Subject: Pondering an M&D road trip... In-Reply-To: <000b01c8e4f6$c9842eb0$5c8c8c10$@com> References: <10937403.1215958092970.JavaMail.root@elwamui-huard.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <000b01c8e4f6$c9842eb0$5c8c8c10$@com> Message-ID: <0A9745774F2BF6409F9544231DCC2661091C3600@vime1.rdg-home.ad.rdg.ac.uk> For a few years, I've been thinking about actually travelling to the U.S. to make this trip - I'm from the UK but am fascinated by American history, society, etc. I would love to do a postgraduate degree in America on M&D but know very little about the U.S. higher education system... If anyone has any advice/information, I'd really appreciate it! As for my own "story" - well, it's not much of one: I was reading M&D for the first time and as I was coming to the end, I was asked to attend a conference in Durham. I read some of the book on the train and, as we were pulling into Durham, that's where the book's action moved to. I walked down to look at the River Wear and actually finished the book during my stay there. Now, whenever I'm asked to attend or speak at a conference, I take a Pynchon book with me - both as a kind of strange "comfort" and in case any little connections come up, leading me onto some bigger or better perspective on the world... Guy x -----Original Message----- From: owner-pynchon-l at waste.org [mailto:owner-pynchon-l at waste.org] On Behalf Of Henry Sent: 13 July 2008 15:43 To: Pynchon Liste Subject: RE: Pondering an M&D road trip... Great story, Laura! A few of us rebs met up with some of the NY Yankee P-Listers in Newark, uh, Delaware, and we drove around Until we found a marker Not long before it started to get darker. The ground was too muddy for one of the women, but none of the cow-men knew her! (It really was muddy, but all were valiant!) I still have the pics that we took, one of a few inside and one whole-sick-crew-shot outside of the tavern where we stopped for libations. I remember that when we had an end-of-the-night desert at a diner, the waitress had never heard of having cheddar with your apple pie. Oh, my! HENRY MUSIKAR Information, Media, and Technology Consultant http://my.barackobama.com/page/community/blog/henrymu -----Original Message----- From: Laura Kelber It sounds like a fun thing to do. Before I started lurking on this list (back in 2003?) I think that a couple of p-listers actually made a pilgrimage to some of the stone markers (maybe during the group read of M&D?). My own experience was more modest, but certainly unforgettable. I had just finished reading M&D and we (me, my husband and our three kids) were visiting friends in Maryland, from whence we were going to visit friends in Harrisburg, PA. So naturally, I suggested we look for the Mason-Dixon line. We found a website http://www.mdlpp.org/ (unfortunately it's under construction at the moment, but there must be others) which gave us the locations of the stone markers that were still there and instructions for finding them. We headed for one that was in the general area where we'd be crossing the border. It was located in a privately owned field, but the website said the owners didn't mind people stopping to look. We were a little uncertain about the whole thing but stopped in at a local historical society, about a mile from the Maryland-Pennsylvania border. The nice people there had heard of the Mason-Dixon line but were pretty sure it was located somewhere in the Deep South. We drove a mile to the border, located the field, hopped out of the car and found ourselves (all 5 of us) shin deep in freshly spread cow manure. With little option, we pressed on and found the marker. It was actually really exciting to find as it was in good condition and the M and P were very legible. After that, it was a sad story. We had to discard our shoes and socks. We drove around the Gettysburg area desperately looking for a shoe store. People kept directing us to stores that sold antique boots for Civil War reenactments. Finally, we found a soulless, suburban shoe emporium that was understaffed enough so that no one threw us out when we all walked in barefoot. It's a history lesson my kids will never forget. Have fun and tell us all about it! Laura From scuffling at gmail.com Tue Jul 15 11:05:14 2008 From: scuffling at gmail.com (Henry) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2008 12:05:14 -0400 Subject: Pondering an M&D road trip... In-Reply-To: <0A9745774F2BF6409F9544231DCC2661091C3600@vime1.rdg-home.ad.rdg.ac.uk> References: <10937403.1215958092970.JavaMail.root@elwamui-huard.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <000b01c8e4f6$c9842eb0$5c8c8c10$@com> <0A9745774F2BF6409F9544231DCC2661091C3600@vime1.rdg-home.ad.rdg.ac.uk> Message-ID: <00a301c8e694$92146ea0$b63d4be0$@com> Guy, your post kicked me in the keister! I'm now thinking about Anglophilia in Pynch-Lit (Maybe I'll go back to school some day and actually write a paper! Nah. Doubt it.). Slothrop et al in LONDON! The Candy Drill! A-and Anglophile Japanese fellow from Hiroshima on the boat in GR! TWITS! Mason and Dixon! The list goes on! Why, P's books are almost as much of Brit as Yank! Henry Mu Information, Media, and Technology Consultant http://my.barackobama.com/page/community/blog/henrymu -----Original Message----- Could we snip things a little for the sake of indexing and our lower-speed Internet comrades? From igrlivingston at gmail.com Tue Jul 15 12:08:00 2008 From: igrlivingston at gmail.com (Ian Livingston) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2008 10:08:00 -0700 Subject: Repost: The Big One In-Reply-To: References: <28153830.1216093467828.JavaMail.root@elwamui-huard.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <95cde1ee0807151008t71d5fff3y181749950c8d6cf7@mail.gmail.com> Well, Maybe I'm confused about what makes a character "round." Many authors, yes, offer characters from within, if you will, talking about their moral and intellectual struggles as if the author and therefore the reader were, in fact, occupying that character's ego. Many other authors present characters that become quite well-rounded without ever getting inside the character's head. Hemmingway comes quickly to mind. Joyce, too, on occasion, and his smarter sister in crime, Virginia Woolf. It seems to me that what makes a character more or less round is the degree of change that character evidences over the course of the narrative. For instance, how much does Cyprian change, or deepen as we get to know him? Frank? Vibe? Dally? Yash? Kit? etc. It seems to me some of these characters are more rounded than others, because we get to know them better and watch them change over time, deepen as individuals. Vibe is clearly flat, stock. He *is* the greed he is meant to portray and nothing more. The point is, moral struggle is not necessarily something we have to explicitly hear. We can observe it. When Yashmeen loses her ability to warp space and time, what do we know about her experience of that loss? (or gain?) When people experience moral turmoil it really is rather rare that they are able to formulate the questions, much less explicitly contemplate the issues involved. Why should it be otherwise with characters? After all, characters are the issue of human intelligence, they are born of the workings of an individual mind, shadows cast on the cave wall by the interior light of the microcosmic Sol. Is it not proper that they should resemble us? I have often been alienated and dismayed by characters who seem to know too much about themselves and the world, who are not a little lost in things and acting largely on impulse, mostly mimetically. It is something I especially like about Pynchon's characters that they are so often mute on the subject of subjective experience and, when we do see or hear their subjective experience, it is so often a sort of "Whoa! What's happening here?" Not some concise summary of the intellectual and moral consequences of everything a la Hesse or Frank Herbert, perhaps even Cormac McCarthy at times. We do not, for instance, hear Cyprian's cognitive struggles over his decision to stay at the convent, to leave his worldly lovers in favor of a divine lover. But we see that he changes as a result of the subjective turmoil. He doesn't just jump ship, he is torn and decides. Little as I identify with him at some levels, it is the *way* he negotiates his doubts that makes him a powerful, round character. But then, maybe I am mistaken about "roundness." And if Oedipa is flat, I am really confused. Or Katje. Or Pugnax, for that matter. On Mon, Jul 14, 2008 at 11:32 PM, David Payne wrote: > > On Mon, 14 Jul 2008 (23:44:27 -0400), Laura (kelber at mindspring.com) wrote: > > > If you're expecting an impassioned defense of TRP's ability to draw > well-rounded characters, you won't be getting it from me. > > Well, no, actually, I wasn't, which is why I said it was a joke, satire. > > And that's twice I've apparently unintentionally implied something that I > did not mean to convey. > > I'll try asking questions for the third time and then just shut up, which > seems, perhaps, to be desired. > > Sticking with the topic at hand, don't most writers create rounded > characters by presenting a moral dilemma and then demonstrating the > character's inner struggle and the resulting moral evolution? > > Does Pynchon do this? > > If not, why? If so, where and why? (Some postings have already answered > this as "yes"; specifically, both Laura and Mark pointed to Frank and the > train crash on page 985.) > > Finally, does Pynchon's moral view point extend beyond the reaction of his > characters' individual personal reactions to their individual dilemmas? > > Please take my comments a face value, b/c my son bought ice cream from an > ice-cream truck for the first time yesterday. Boy-oh-boy was he ever excited > to learn that people actually drive around in trucks full of ice cream on > hot summer days, trying to unload their merchandise. > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Making the world a better place one message at a time. > http://www.imtalkathon.com/?source=EML_WLH_Talkathon_BetterPlace > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From scuffling at gmail.com Tue Jul 15 12:16:28 2008 From: scuffling at gmail.com (Henry) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2008 13:16:28 -0400 Subject: Repost: The Big One In-Reply-To: <95cde1ee0807151008t71d5fff3y181749950c8d6cf7@mail.gmail.com> References: <28153830.1216093467828.JavaMail.root@elwamui-huard.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <95cde1ee0807151008t71d5fff3y181749950c8d6cf7@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <00d501c8e69e$857b9830$9072c890$@com> Slothrop and Pig Bodine were round. Henry Mu Information, Media, and Technology Consultant http://my.barackobama.com/page/community/blog/henrymu -----Original Message----- From: Ian Livingston Well, Maybe I'm confused about what makes a character "round."  From mryc2903 at yahoo.fr Tue Jul 15 12:57:43 2008 From: mryc2903 at yahoo.fr (Michel Ryckx) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2008 19:57:43 +0200 Subject: Pynchon's neighbour is 17 ... In-Reply-To: <487CE495.3050905@yahoo.fr> References: <487CE495.3050905@yahoo.fr> Message-ID: <487CE517.5000808@yahoo.fr> about same age as Jackson Pynchon... Quote: *I've been living in the same apartment building since I was 4 (I'm 17 now), and I only found out about a month ago that my neighbor is Thomas Pynchon. To me, he had always just been "Tom", and that is what my family and I always called him. We all knew he was Thomas Pynchon, it just never registered to us that he was THE Thomas Pynchon until some chick at my school told me she knew his son, and that he is an author. My building is set up weird, so that there are only two apartments per floor, per elevator, so my fam and his fam share a hallway. Probably the only people who will know who this is are those who have some knowledge of 20th/21st century American literature. Y'all would know why this is somewhat of a big deal.* http://niketalk.yuku.com/topic/88867 Thanks to one of the IPW 2008 contenders -- a brilliant new voice Michel. ___________________________________________________________________________ Yahoo! Mail réinvente le mail ! Découvrez le nouveau Yahoo! Mail et son interface révolutionnaire. http://fr.mail.yahoo.com From robinlandseadel at comcast.net Tue Jul 15 13:03:41 2008 From: robinlandseadel at comcast.net (robinlandseadel at comcast.net) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2008 18:03:41 +0000 Subject: Repost: The Big One Message-ID: <071520081803.9347.487CE67D000AA993000024832212020784040A0B0E0A9C0B020E0402070D019D@comcast.net> "Ian Livingston: And if Oedipa is flat, I am really confused. Part of the reason CoL 49 is my favorite is that Via Oed we find ourselves inside the head of someone on the verge of revelation, with all the emotional turmoil and strangeness that goes into that experience of internal transformation. -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: "Ian Livingston" Subject: Re: Repost: The Big One Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2008 17:10:20 +0000 Size: 5911 URL: From igrlivingston at gmail.com Tue Jul 15 14:14:23 2008 From: igrlivingston at gmail.com (Ian Livingston) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2008 12:14:23 -0700 Subject: Repost: The Big One In-Reply-To: <071520081803.9347.487CE67D000AA993000024832212020784040A0B0E0A9C0B020E0402070D019D@comcast.net> References: <071520081803.9347.487CE67D000AA993000024832212020784040A0B0E0A9C0B020E0402070D019D@comcast.net> Message-ID: <95cde1ee0807151214s488ea692k32923c5f66b106d3@mail.gmail.com> True enough. It's not that TRP doesn't give us inside looks, it's just that he doesn't rely on them. He let's the reader work more often than not. I guess that's part of why he is difficult for some, delightful to others. On Tue, Jul 15, 2008 at 11:03 AM, wrote: > "Ian Livingston: > And if Oedipa is flat, I am really confused. > > Part of the reason CoL 49 is my favorite is that Via Oed we find ourselves > inside the head of someone on the verge of revelation, with all the > emotional turmoil and strangeness that goes into that experience of internal > transformation. > > > > > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: "Ian Livingston" > To: "David Payne" , pynchon-l at waste.org > Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2008 17:10:20 +0000 > Subject: Re: Repost: The Big One > > Well, > > Maybe I'm confused about what makes a character "round." Many authors, > yes, offer characters from within, if you will, talking about their moral > and intellectual struggles as if the author and therefore the reader were, > in fact, occupying that character's ego. Many other authors present > characters that become quite well-rounded without ever getting inside the > character's head. Hemmingway comes quickly to mind. Joyce, too, on > occasion, and his smarter sister in crime, Virginia Woolf. It seems to me > that what makes a character more or less round is the degree of change that > character evidences over the course of the narrative. For instance, how > much does Cyprian change, or deepen as we get to know him? Frank? Vibe? > Dally? Yash? Kit? etc. It seems to me some of these characters are more > rounded than others, because we get to know them better and watch them > change over time, deepen as individuals. Vibe is clearly flat, stock. He > *is* the greed he is meant to portray and nothing more. > > The point is, moral struggle is not necessarily something we have to > explicitly hear. We can observe it. When Yashmeen loses her ability to > warp space and time, what do we know about her experience of that loss? (or > gain?) When people experience moral turmoil it really is rather rare that > they are able to formulate the questions, much less explicitly contemplate > the issues involved. Why should it be otherwise with characters? After > all, characters are the issue of human intelligence, they are born of the > workings of an individual mind, shadows cast on the cave wall by the > interior light of the microcosmic Sol. Is it not proper that they should > resemble us? I have often been alienated and dismayed by characters who > seem to know too much about themselves and the world, who are not a little > lost in things and acting largely on impulse, mostly mimetically. It is > something I especially like about Pynchon's characters that they are so > often mute on the subject of subjective experience and, when we do see or > hear their subjective experience, it is so often a sort of "Whoa! What's > happening here?" Not some concise summary of the intellectual and moral > consequences of everything a la Hesse or Frank Herbert, perhaps even Cormac > McCarthy at times. We do not, for instance, hear Cyprian's cognitive > struggles over his decision to stay at the convent, to leave his worldly > lovers in favor of a divine lover. But we see that he changes as a result > of the subjective turmoil. He doesn't just jump ship, he is torn and > decides. Little as I identify with him at some levels, it is the *way* he > negotiates his doubts that makes him a powerful, round character. > > But then, maybe I am mistaken about "roundness." > > And if Oedipa is flat, I am really confused. Or Katje. Or Pugnax, for > that matter. > > On Mon, Jul 14, 2008 at 11:32 PM, David Payne > wrote: > >> >> On Mon, 14 Jul 2008 (23:44:27 -0400), Laura (kelber at mindspring.com) >> wrote: >> >> > If you're expecting an impassioned defense of TRP's ability to draw >> well-rounded characters, you won't be getting it from me. >> >> Well, no, actually, I wasn't, which is why I said it was a joke, satire. >> >> And that's twice I've apparently unintentionally implied something that I >> did not mean to convey. >> >> I'll try asking questions for the third time and then just shut up, which >> seems, perhaps, to be desired. >> >> Sticking with the topic at hand, don't most writers create rounded >> characters by presenting a moral dilemma and then demonstrating the >> character's inner struggle and the resulting moral evolution? >> >> Does Pynchon do this? >> >> If not, why? If so, where and why? (Some postings have already answered >> this as "yes"; specifically, both Laura and Mark pointed to Frank and the >> train crash on page 985.) >> >> Finally, does Pynchon's moral view point extend beyond the reaction of his >> characters' individual personal reactions to their individual dilemmas? >> >> Please take my comments a face value, b/c my son bought ice cream from an >> ice-cream truck for the first time yesterday. Boy-oh-boy was he ever excited >> to learn that people actually drive around in trucks full of ice cream on >> hot summer days, trying to unload their merchandise. >> >> >> _________________________________________________________________ >> Making the world a better place one message at a time. >> http://www.imtalkathon.com/?source=EML_WLH_Talkathon_BetterPlace >> > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From markekohut at yahoo.com Tue Jul 15 15:51:09 2008 From: markekohut at yahoo.com (Mark Kohut) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2008 13:51:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Repost: The Big One In-Reply-To: <95cde1ee0807151008t71d5fff3y181749950c8d6cf7@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <494617.64342.qm@web38403.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Well. I believe E. M. Forster first articulated the 'flat' 'found' distinction in Aspects of the Novel. Flat means ruled (on the page) by an idee' fixe or couple-maybe three. They don't develop in the book. Many great novels, full of the roundest characters, are full of flat characters, too....Proust, even Austen, others. To set off. To make those social/political points. Dickens is full of vital flatheads, so to speak. Round means qualities, characteristics, thru psychological presentation [james, say] and actions full of breadth and depth...and in a full novel, development [change]....."capable of surprising in convincing ways" as someone has said. "Like the people we know", someone has said. My problem in sorting that out is: I know flat people; I am a flat person to many. Therefore, in the fictions I inhabit, what are we? --- On Tue, 7/15/08, Ian Livingston wrote: > From: Ian Livingston > Subject: Re: Repost: The Big One > To: "David Payne" , pynchon-l at waste.org > Date: Tuesday, July 15, 2008, 1:08 PM > Well, > > Maybe I'm confused about what makes a character > "round." Many authors, yes, > offer characters from within, if you will, talking about > their moral and > intellectual struggles as if the author and therefore the > reader were, in > fact, occupying that character's ego. Many other > authors present characters > that become quite well-rounded without ever getting inside > the character's > head. Hemmingway comes quickly to mind. Joyce, too, on > occasion, and his > smarter sister in crime, Virginia Woolf. It seems to me > that what makes a > character more or less round is the degree of change that > character > evidences over the course of the narrative. For instance, > how much does > Cyprian change, or deepen as we get to know him? Frank? > Vibe? Dally? > Yash? Kit? etc. It seems to me some of these characters > are more rounded > than others, because we get to know them better and watch > them change over > time, deepen as individuals. Vibe is clearly flat, stock. > He *is* the > greed he is meant to portray and nothing more. > > The point is, moral struggle is not necessarily something > we have to > explicitly hear. We can observe it. When Yashmeen loses > her ability to > warp space and time, what do we know about her experience > of that loss? (or > gain?) When people experience moral turmoil it really is > rather rare that > they are able to formulate the questions, much less > explicitly contemplate > the issues involved. Why should it be otherwise with > characters? After > all, characters are the issue of human intelligence, they > are born of the > workings of an individual mind, shadows cast on the cave > wall by the > interior light of the microcosmic Sol. Is it not proper > that they should > resemble us? I have often been alienated and dismayed by > characters who > seem to know too much about themselves and the world, who > are not a little > lost in things and acting largely on impulse, mostly > mimetically. It is > something I especially like about Pynchon's characters > that they are so > often mute on the subject of subjective experience and, > when we do see or > hear their subjective experience, it is so often a sort of > "Whoa! What's > happening here?" Not some concise summary of the > intellectual and moral > consequences of everything a la Hesse or Frank Herbert, > perhaps even Cormac > McCarthy at times. We do not, for instance, hear > Cyprian's cognitive > struggles over his decision to stay at the convent, to > leave his worldly > lovers in favor of a divine lover. But we see that he > changes as a result > of the subjective turmoil. He doesn't just jump ship, > he is torn and > decides. Little as I identify with him at some levels, it > is the *way* he > negotiates his doubts that makes him a powerful, round > character. > > But then, maybe I am mistaken about "roundness." > > And if Oedipa is flat, I am really confused. Or Katje. Or > Pugnax, for that > matter. > > On Mon, Jul 14, 2008 at 11:32 PM, David Payne > > wrote: > > > > > On Mon, 14 Jul 2008 (23:44:27 -0400), Laura > (kelber at mindspring.com) wrote: > > > > > If you're expecting an impassioned defense of > TRP's ability to draw > > well-rounded characters, you won't be getting it > from me. > > > > Well, no, actually, I wasn't, which is why I said > it was a joke, satire. > > > > And that's twice I've apparently > unintentionally implied something that I > > did not mean to convey. > > > > I'll try asking questions for the third time and > then just shut up, which > > seems, perhaps, to be desired. > > > > Sticking with the topic at hand, don't most > writers create rounded > > characters by presenting a moral dilemma and then > demonstrating the > > character's inner struggle and the resulting moral > evolution? > > > > Does Pynchon do this? > > > > If not, why? If so, where and why? (Some postings have > already answered > > this as "yes"; specifically, both Laura and > Mark pointed to Frank and the > > train crash on page 985.) > > > > Finally, does Pynchon's moral view point extend > beyond the reaction of his > > characters' individual personal reactions to their > individual dilemmas? > > > > Please take my comments a face value, b/c my son > bought ice cream from an > > ice-cream truck for the first time yesterday. > Boy-oh-boy was he ever excited > > to learn that people actually drive around in trucks > full of ice cream on > > hot summer days, trying to unload their merchandise. > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > Making the world a better place one message at a time. > > > http://www.imtalkathon.com/?source=EML_WLH_Talkathon_BetterPlace > > From bekker2 at mac.com Tue Jul 15 17:25:13 2008 From: bekker2 at mac.com (Bekah) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2008 15:25:13 -0700 Subject: Repost: The Big One In-Reply-To: <071520081803.9347.487CE67D000AA993000024832212020784040A0B0E0A9C0B020E0402070D019D@comcast.net> References: <071520081803.9347.487CE67D000AA993000024832212020784040A0B0E0A9C0B020E0402070D019D@comcast.net> Message-ID: First, I love PYnchon and I love Oedpia so there is no criticism in the following post! To use flat or rounded characters has no effect on the value of a work unless the author used flat ones where they should have been rounded because the themes are of personal change or something but you never do get to "know" the main character - disgusting books. I speak of "knowing" a character in terms of intimate knowing - not who, what, where, when - but the whys and wherefores of her. Pynchon is perfect in his use of flattish characters. We don't "know" them and "care" about them. We don't cry when they cry or rejoice at their success. We're not scared for them. They're always "characters in novel." We can describe these characters in a sentence or two (we might need pages to tell what they do). Rounded characters have a large emotional aspect, their personalities are developed as being unique and changeable. We feel like we "know" them as individual people and care about them and what happens to them. It takes pages to describe them and their ways but maybe only a page or two to tell what they actually do in the novel. (Btw, these terms are from E.M. Forster back in the 1920s or something and not meant for post-mod lit. Even he did not disparage flat characters - it's just an alternative an author makes about where the emphasis of a book will be. He said the characters of Dickens were somewhat flat. I think that only Tolstoy in War & Peace was able to deal successfully and so deeply with "big issues" and themes (history - fate) while developing fully developed and rounded characters as well. The careful reader "knows" Pierre and Natasha and shoot, even Napoleon. If I were to describe Pierre I could tell me about him as a person. If I described Oedipa I would basically tell you her demographics and put far more importance on her detection and what she did. I'm not going to say that Pynchon is the Tolstoy of the 20th / 21st century. We won't have one like him again. I think whether or not you see Oedipa as a "flattish" or "roundish" character is in comparison to what else you've read. If you've been reading a lot of pomo or sci-fi or detective novels she's as rounded as most. If you've been reading Middlemarch she is totally flat - like many post-modern characters to a person reading 19th century lit. The flat/round thing is a "range," not a black/white deal and it's relative to other characters and subjective - in the reader's response (to an extent). Oedipa starts out from Kinneret-Among-The-Pines as a typical "Tupperware" housewife with a rather boring but hipster type husband. This id announcing that she is a middle-class, married and moderately young and hip woman. So far I take Oedipa to be a "type" character and therefore "flattish." I don't really know "her." I know hundreds like her. That's the point - she is "everywoman." Oedipa's personality and character have to take backstage for the plot to get about its business developing the themes. She has a personality and a character but so does a detective in a crime novel - She's not the point of the book so Pynchon doesn't w.a.s.t.e. a lot of words in developing her as a unique and interesting character. Her development is not a part of the plot or themes. The themes which Pynchon explores, using Oedipa, as a vehicle, are paranoia, conspiracy, reality vs fiction, etc. In MY reading of this book, she's never emotionally fleshed out, she springs forth as fully developed as she's going to get in this book and her character doesn't really change much (find redemption). The text deals with her intellectual processes as she works from scene to scene trying to make sense of and follow the threads of Pierce Invararity's will. The theme has nothing to do with a change in Oedipa (although we can probably assume she does) - it has to do with conspiracies and all the things she tries to track down or sees or intuits and stuff. Hers is an intellectual challenge - like a detective - not a moral/personal development challenge. Bekah babbling On Jul 15, 2008, at 11:03 AM, robinlandseadel at comcast.net wrote: > "Ian Livingston: > And if Oedipa is flat, I am really confused. > > Part of the reason CoL 49 is my favorite is that Via Oed we find > ourselves inside the head of someone on the verge of revelation, > with all the emotional turmoil and strangeness that goes into that > experience of internal transformation. > > > > > > From: Ian Livingston > Date: July 15, 2008 10:10:20 AM PDT > To: David Payne , pynchon-l at waste.org > Subject: Re: Repost: The Big One > > > > Well, > > Maybe I'm confused about what makes a character "round." Many > authors, yes, offer characters from within, if you will, talking > about their moral and intellectual struggles as if the author and > therefore the reader were, in fact, occupying that character's > ego. Many other authors present characters that become quite well- > rounded without ever getting inside the character's head. > Hemmingway comes quickly to mind. Joyce, too, on occasion, and his > smarter sister in crime, Virginia Woolf. It seems to me that what > makes a character more or less round is the degree of change that > character evidences over the course of the narrative. For > instance, how much does Cyprian change, or deepen as we get to know > him? Frank? Vibe? Dally? Yash? Kit? etc. It seems to me some > of these characters are more rounded than others, because we get to > know them better and watch them change over time, deepen as > individuals. Vibe is clearly flat, stock. He is the greed he is > meant to portray and nothing more. > > The point is, moral struggle is not necessarily something we have > to explicitly hear. We can observe it. When Yashmeen loses her > ability to warp space and time, what do we know about her > experience of that loss? (or gain?) When people experience moral > turmoil it really is rather rare that they are able to formulate > the questions, much less explicitly contemplate the issues > involved. Why should it be otherwise with characters? After all, > characters are the issue of human intelligence, they are born of > the workings of an individual mind, shadows cast on the cave wall > by the interior light of the microcosmic Sol. Is it not proper > that they should resemble us? I have often been alienated and > dismayed by characters who seem to know too much about themselves > and the world, who are not a little lost in things and acting > largely on impulse, mostly mimetically. It is something I > especially like about Pynchon's characters that they are so often > mute on the subject of subjective experience and, when we do see or > hear their subjective experience, it is so often a sort of "Whoa! > What's happening here?" Not some concise summary of the > intellectual and moral consequences of everything a la Hesse or > Frank Herbert, perhaps even Cormac McCarthy at times. We do not, > for instance, hear Cyprian's cognitive struggles over his decision > to stay at the convent, to leave his worldly lovers in favor of a > divine lover. But we see that he changes as a result of the > subjective turmoil. He doesn't just jump ship, he is torn and > decides. Little as I identify with him at some levels, it is the > way he negotiates his doubts that makes him a powerful, round > character. > > But then, maybe I am mistaken about "roundness." > > And if Oedipa is flat, I am really confused. Or Katje. Or Pugnax, > for that matter. > > On Mon, Jul 14, 2008 at 11:32 PM, David Payne > wrote: > > On Mon, 14 Jul 2008 (23:44:27 -0400), Laura (kelber at mindspring.com) > wrote: > > > If you're expecting an impassioned defense of TRP's ability to > draw well-rounded characters, you won't be getting it from me. > > Well, no, actually, I wasn't, which is why I said it was a joke, > satire. > > And that's twice I've apparently unintentionally implied something > that I did not mean to convey. > > I'll try asking questions for the third time and then just shut up, > which seems, perhaps, to be desired. > > Sticking with the topic at hand, don't most writers create rounded > characters by presenting a moral dilemma and then demonstrating the > character's inner struggle and the resulting moral evolution? > > Does Pynchon do this? > > If not, why? If so, where and why? (Some postings have already > answered this as "yes"; specifically, both Laura and Mark pointed > to Frank and the train crash on page 985.) > > Finally, does Pynchon's moral view point extend beyond the reaction > of his characters' individual personal reactions to their > individual dilemmas? > > Please take my comments a face value, b/c my son bought ice cream > from an ice-cream truck for the first time yesterday. Boy-oh-boy > was he ever excited to learn that people actually drive around in > trucks full of ice cream on hot summer days, trying to unload their > merchandise. > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Making the world a better place one message at a time. > http://www.imtalkathon.com/?source=EML_WLH_Talkathon_BetterPlace > From markekohut at yahoo.com Tue Jul 15 20:31:00 2008 From: markekohut at yahoo.com (Mark Kohut) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2008 18:31:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Repost: The Big One In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <487502.31733.qm@web38406.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Good talking, Bekah. I have wondered if Pynchon's blurb for an early Rudolph Wurlitzer novel, which maybe had no cities as characters, sorta carried some of his thoughts on ye olde round and roundedness in fiction: "The novel of bullshit is dead".---TRP --- On Tue, 7/15/08, Bekah wrote: > From: Bekah > Subject: Re: Repost: The Big One > To: "P-list" > Date: Tuesday, July 15, 2008, 6:25 PM > First, I love PYnchon and I love Oedpia so there is no > criticism in > the following post! > > To use flat or rounded characters has no effect on the > value of a > work unless the author used flat ones where they should > have been > rounded because the themes are of personal change or > something but > you never do get to "know" the main character - > disgusting books. I > speak of "knowing" a character in terms of > intimate knowing - not > who, what, where, when - but the whys and wherefores of > her. > > Pynchon is perfect in his use of flattish characters. > We don't > "know" them and "care" about them. We > don't cry when they cry or > rejoice at their success. We're not scared for them. > They're > always "characters in novel." We can describe > these characters in a > sentence or two (we might need pages to tell what they do). > > Rounded characters have a large emotional aspect, their > personalities are developed as being unique and changeable. > We feel > like we "know" them as individual people and care > about them and what > happens to them. It takes pages to describe them and > their ways > but maybe only a page or two to tell what they actually do > in the novel. > > (Btw, these terms are from E.M. Forster back in the 1920s > or > something and not meant for post-mod lit. Even he did not > disparage > flat characters - it's just an alternative an author > makes about > where the emphasis of a book will be. He said the > characters of > Dickens were somewhat flat. > > I think that only Tolstoy in War & Peace was able to > deal > successfully and so deeply with "big issues" and > themes (history - > fate) while developing fully developed and rounded > characters as > well. The careful reader "knows" Pierre and > Natasha and shoot, > even Napoleon. If I were to describe Pierre I could tell > me about > him as a person. If I described Oedipa I would basically > tell you > her demographics and put far more importance on her > detection and > what she did. I'm not going to say that Pynchon is > the Tolstoy of > the 20th / 21st century. We won't have one like him > again. > > > I think whether or not you see Oedipa as a > "flattish" or "roundish" > character is in comparison to what else you've read. > If you've been > reading a lot of pomo or sci-fi or detective novels > she's as rounded > as most. If you've been reading Middlemarch she is > totally flat - > like many post-modern characters to a person reading 19th > century > lit. The flat/round thing is a "range," not a > black/white deal and > it's relative to other characters and subjective - in > the reader's > response (to an extent). > > > Oedipa starts out from Kinneret-Among-The-Pines as a > typical > "Tupperware" housewife with a rather boring but > hipster type > husband. This id announcing that she is a middle-class, > married > and moderately young and hip woman. So far I take > Oedipa to be a > "type" character and therefore > "flattish." I don't really know > "her." I know hundreds like her. That's > the point - she is > "everywoman." Oedipa's personality and > character have to take > backstage for the plot to get about its business developing > the > themes. She has a personality and a character but so does > a > detective in a crime novel - She's not the point of the > book so > Pynchon doesn't w.a.s.t.e. a lot of words in > developing her as a > unique and interesting character. Her development is > not a part > of the plot or themes. The themes which Pynchon explores, > using > Oedipa, as a vehicle, are paranoia, conspiracy, reality > vs > fiction, etc. In MY reading of this book, she's > never > emotionally fleshed out, she springs forth as fully > developed as > she's going to get in this book and her character > doesn't really > change much (find redemption). > > The text deals with her intellectual processes as she > works from > scene to scene trying to make sense of and follow the > threads of > Pierce Invararity's will. The theme has nothing to do > with a change > in Oedipa (although we can probably assume she does) - it > has to do > with conspiracies and all the things she tries to track > down or sees > or intuits and stuff. Hers is an intellectual challenge - > like a > detective - not a moral/personal development challenge. > > > Bekah > babbling > > > > > On Jul 15, 2008, at 11:03 AM, robinlandseadel at comcast.net > wrote: > > > "Ian Livingston: > > And if Oedipa is flat, I am really confused. > > > > Part of the reason CoL 49 is my favorite is that Via > Oed we find > > ourselves inside the head of someone on the verge of > revelation, > > with all the emotional turmoil and strangeness that > goes into that > > experience of internal transformation. > > > > > > > > > > > > From: Ian Livingston > > Date: July 15, 2008 10:10:20 AM PDT > > To: David Payne , > pynchon-l at waste.org > > Subject: Re: Repost: The Big One > > > > > > > > Well, > > > > Maybe I'm confused about what makes a character > "round." Many > > authors, yes, offer characters from within, if you > will, talking > > about their moral and intellectual struggles as if the > author and > > therefore the reader were, in fact, occupying that > character's > > ego. Many other authors present characters that > become quite well- > > rounded without ever getting inside the > character's head. > > Hemmingway comes quickly to mind. Joyce, too, on > occasion, and his > > smarter sister in crime, Virginia Woolf. It seems to > me that what > > makes a character more or less round is the degree of > change that > > character evidences over the course of the narrative. > For > > instance, how much does Cyprian change, or deepen as > we get to know > > him? Frank? Vibe? Dally? Yash? Kit? etc. It > seems to me some > > of these characters are more rounded than others, > because we get to > > know them better and watch them change over time, > deepen as > > individuals. Vibe is clearly flat, stock. He is the > greed he is > > meant to portray and nothing more. > > > > The point is, moral struggle is not necessarily > something we have > > to explicitly hear. We can observe it. When Yashmeen > loses her > > ability to warp space and time, what do we know about > her > > experience of that loss? (or gain?) When people > experience moral > > turmoil it really is rather rare that they are able to > formulate > > the questions, much less explicitly contemplate the > issues > > involved. Why should it be otherwise with characters? > After all, > > characters are the issue of human intelligence, they > are born of > > the workings of an individual mind, shadows cast on > the cave wall > > by the interior light of the microcosmic Sol. Is it > not proper > > that they should resemble us? I have often been > alienated and > > dismayed by characters who seem to know too much about > themselves > > and the world, who are not a little lost in things and > acting > > largely on impulse, mostly mimetically. It is > something I > > especially like about Pynchon's characters that > they are so often > > mute on the subject of subjective experience and, when > we do see or > > hear their subjective experience, it is so often a > sort of "Whoa! > > What's happening here?" Not some concise > summary of the > > intellectual and moral consequences of everything a la > Hesse or > > Frank Herbert, perhaps even Cormac McCarthy at times. > We do not, > > for instance, hear Cyprian's cognitive struggles > over his decision > > to stay at the convent, to leave his worldly lovers in > favor of a > > divine lover. But we see that he changes as a result > of the > > subjective turmoil. He doesn't just jump ship, he > is torn and > > decides. Little as I identify with him at some > levels, it is the > > way he negotiates his doubts that makes him a > powerful, round > > character. > > > > But then, maybe I am mistaken about > "roundness." > > > > And if Oedipa is flat, I am really confused. Or > Katje. Or Pugnax, > > for that matter. > > > > On Mon, Jul 14, 2008 at 11:32 PM, David Payne > > wrote: > > > > On Mon, 14 Jul 2008 (23:44:27 -0400), Laura > (kelber at mindspring.com) > > wrote: > > > > > If you're expecting an impassioned defense of > TRP's ability to > > draw well-rounded characters, you won't be getting > it from me. > > > > Well, no, actually, I wasn't, which is why I said > it was a joke, > > satire. > > > > And that's twice I've apparently > unintentionally implied something > > that I did not mean to convey. > > > > I'll try asking questions for the third time and > then just shut up, > > which seems, perhaps, to be desired. > > > > Sticking with the topic at hand, don't most > writers create rounded > > characters by presenting a moral dilemma and then > demonstrating the > > character's inner struggle and the resulting moral > evolution? > > > > Does Pynchon do this? > > > > If not, why? If so, where and why? (Some postings have > already > > answered this as "yes"; specifically, both > Laura and Mark pointed > > to Frank and the train crash on page 985.) > > > > Finally, does Pynchon's moral view point extend > beyond the reaction > > of his characters' individual personal reactions > to their > > individual dilemmas? > > > > Please take my comments a face value, b/c my son > bought ice cream > > from an ice-cream truck for the first time yesterday. > Boy-oh-boy > > was he ever excited to learn that people actually > drive around in > > trucks full of ice cream on hot summer days, trying to > unload their > > merchandise. > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > Making the world a better place one message at a time. > > > http://www.imtalkathon.com/?source=EML_WLH_Talkathon_BetterPlace > > From bekker2 at mac.com Tue Jul 15 21:18:53 2008 From: bekker2 at mac.com (Bekah) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2008 19:18:53 -0700 Subject: ATDTDA: (36) pgs 1030-1038 Message-ID: <2EB337F2-77B5-4B7F-B186-B9D24BC4D449@mac.com> And on to the Ætheronauts, light/dark and moving pictures **************** page 1030 * Sodality of Ætheronauts A sodality is a society; the ætheronauts use the æther as their medium of flight via mechanical wings - they are religious novices. The Chums figure they were destined to have families but the girls could never really go to earth so they nested on the city rooftops * nitronaphthol - engine fuel * chaffinch a pretty little bird http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaffinch **************** Page 1030 The girls' names are: * Heartsease - a flower - Viola tricolor - which has the medicinal quality of lifting the spirits, i.e., "Mends a broken heart" - she pairs up with Randolph * Primula - the Primrose (Primula vulgaris) has the medicinal quality of inducing sleep and she pairs up with Miles * Viridian, from the Latin for "green," and she's definitely "green", as demonstrated by this scolding of Chick Counterfly: "Fumes are not the future," pairs up with Chick * Blaze, "Burning dead dinosaurs and whatever they ate ain't the answer, Crankshaft Boy." pairs up with Darby "each had found her way to this Ætherist sorority through the mysteries of" - ta-da, ta-da... "inconvenience..." (lower case) such as a missed train or great waves of wind, light saturation ****************** page 1031 (what is this - a bunch of science stuff I have no comprehension of) Like Sidney and Beatrice Webb around here." - British socialists of the day. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beatrice_Webb The Chums flew northwest and found the City of our Lady - Queen of the Angels - Los Angeles was founded in 1781 as "Pueblo de Nuestra Señora la Reina de los Ángeles." Reina = Queen, fairly common female name in Spanish "... where on earth is this - that's sort of the problem - the on earth part." Indicating that this likely is the counter earth, although I don't know why this couldn't be the real earth and the other one was the counter earth. How could one tell? And the coming darkness cast by the light: And in Southern California light is flooding forth form suburban homes and so on - factory sky-lights - athletic fields, city plazas, automobile lights - "... they felt themselves an uneasy witness to some final conquest, a triumph over night whose motive none could quite grasp." **************** Page 1033 Light seems to have won over darkness, but that's not necessarily good news as there are side effects to the conquest of darkness: Labor now works overtime and xtra work-shifts? But there is additional employment - further expansion - The Chums debate briefly: "Yup groundhog sweat misery and early graves." more investment in these things and ... "I am as fond of the subjunctive mood as any." "fuck you," = "Long live capitalism" Darkness from the light: Miles: "Lucifer - son of the morning - bearer of light - Prince of Evil http://www.dpjs.co.uk/lucifer.html Isaiah's epithet for the King of Babylon with Christ's vision - according t o Luke, of Satan falling like lighting from heaven. http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=luke%2010:18-10:18&version=9 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucifer Satan - etc. But their "paycheck" bounces so our boys are in California without evident means of support **************** Page 1034 At a Hollywood hot dog stand called "Links" (like the very real Pinks of Hollywood?) ... http://www.pinkshollywood.com/pgz/history.htm (but Pinks opened in 1940 or so - ) Chick Counterfly runs into his father, Dick who drives a Packard and lives in a Beaux Arts mansion on West Adams with his 3rd wife, Treacle (dark and syrupy sweet - will probably rot your teeth). 1914 Packard - http://www.autogallery.org.ru/k/p/14pacmodel238touring_HMN.jpg Beaux Arts mansion http://architecture.about.com/od/periodsstyles/ig/House-Styles/Beaux- Arts.htm West Adams, LA http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Adams,_Los_Angeles,_California A large area of now historic homes in LA. "The West Adams area was developed between 1880 and 1925, and contains many diverse architectural styles of the era. Architectural styles seen in West Adams include the Queen Anne, Shingle, Gothic Revival, Transitional Arts and Crafts, American Craftsman/Ultimate Bungalow, Craftsman Bungalow, Colonial Revival, Renaissance Revival, Mediterranean Revival, Spanish Colonial Revival, Mission Revival, Egyptian Revival, Beaux-Arts and Neoclassical styles. West Adams boasts the only Greene and Greene house in Los Angeles. Its historic homes are frequently used as locations for movies and TV shows including CSI, Six Feet Under, The Shield, Monk, Confessions of a Dangerous Mind and Of Mice and Men." Dick shows off his machinery - a big spinning disk - Nipkow scanner 1884 which was invented by Paul Nipkow in 1884 and used for very early stages of television. Although capable of high-speed scanning, conventional Nipkow disks failed to provide enough amounts of light to image fluorescence from live cells. http://www.yokogawa.com/scanner/products/csu10e.htm http://www.diycalculator.com/popup-h-console.shtml#A3 They apparently access Gilligan's Island what with the sailor-hatted monkey (Dobey Gillis), the palm tree and the Skipper showing up on the screen. Dick says he picks this one up every week. **************** Page 1035 Chick and Dick go to meet Merle Rideout and Roswell Bounce at the Van Nuys balloon field. Roswell is paranoid **************** Page 1036 Oxone . . . Blattnerphone components Oxone - a type of oxidizer The Blattnerphone recorder http://www.collectionscanada.gc.ca/ gramophone/m2-3021.3-e.html Fleming valve http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fleming_valve Lee De Forest added that grid electrode to the Fleming valve The Fleming valve--named for British electrical engineer Sir John Ambrose Fleming (1849–1945)--was an early form of diode (a vacuum tube in which electrons flow in one direction, from a heated filament to a plate). In 1907, De Forest (AtD, p. 29) created the triode out of the diode by inserting a curved mesh grid, whose voltage could be varied, between the filament and the plate. output . . . can be the indefinite integral of any signal Long discussion mostly removed to the Discussion page on Jan. 23, 2008 This is in fact an elegant mathematical, or, better, 'pataphysical, expression of the phenomenon of looking at a single photograph and imagining it as part of a movie (which is after all just a sequence of still photographs), or of many possible movies--the movie is the integral of the photograph. This is techno-mathematical nonsense of a very particular kind: an example of 'Pataphysics [5], which its originator, the absurdist novelist and playwright Alfred Jarry [6] (1873-1907) defined as "The science of imaginary solutions". His fictional creation Dr. Faustroll explains that 'Pataphysics deals with "the laws which govern exceptions and will explain the universe supplementary to this one". One can imagine any number of possible "movies" or world-lines, for the subject of a photograph, any number of alternate histories and supplementary universes. paranoia querelans Misspelling of querulans. This page describes the disorder. They've got the theory now to find the analogies but Roswell is paranoid - querelans they accumulate stuff not knowing what to do with it but sure enough - they find something - photo of downtown LA - Merle rocked the carbons - took from the cabinet a brilliant red crystal - Lorandite - from Macedonia before the Balkan wars - pure thallium arsenosulphide - Merle [...] took from a wall safe a brilliant red crystal, brought it over to a platinoid housing and carefully slid it into place. "Lorandite — brought out of Macedonia before the Balkan Wars, pure thallium arsenosulfide, purer quality than you can find anymore." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lorandite * Lorandite is a thallium arsenic sulfosalt with formula: TlAsS2. It was first discovered at Alshar, Republic of Macedonia in 1894 and named after Loránd Eötvös, physicist at the University of Budapest. The lorandite is thought to have the potential to unravel the so- called "neutrino puzzle." By serving as a geochemical detector of the neuron, the lorandite could validate or disprove the theory of the standard solar system, say physicists. In simple terms—it would let us understand the work of the Sun. http://tw.strahlen.org/fotoatlas1/lorandite_foto.html * Thallium - a form of poison http://drnickonline.blogspot.com/2006/11/thallium-poisoning- everything-russian.html * Iron arsenosulfide is the most common ore of arsenic. It is found in Mexico (Mapimí), Sweden (Tunaberg) and the U.S. (Montana). According to Risto Karajkov writing in "World Press": ** Moving pictures: "They bring the still life to action - then many others of American lives unquestionably in motion - effect was of a small city in frames He was on a mission to set free the images not just the photographs but also of all that came his way - prince who with his kiss releases that Sleeping Beauty into wakefulness. ******************** Page 1038 "old gaffers" A gaffer in the motion picture industry is the head of the electrical department, responsible for the execution (and sometimes the design) of the lighting plan for a production. In British English the term gaffer is long established as meaning an old man, or the foreman of a squad of workmen. (In U.S. English, similarly, "Pappy" is a nickname for the leader of such a group—like Pappy Hod in V..) The term was also used to describe men who adjusted lighting in English theatre and men who tended street lamps, after the "gaff" they used, a pole with a hook on its end [7]. One seller of gaffer's tape (used in theater and film) says the "gaff" story is incorrect, but it isn't clear this is correct, because long poles called "hi-tech focusing aids" are definitely still used in theater. The "old man" meaning comes from a dialectal pronunciation of "grandfather." Roswell and Merle are gaffers (old men / electricians/old men). ****** Bekah and over to Mark - From kelber at mindspring.com Tue Jul 15 21:37:17 2008 From: kelber at mindspring.com (kelber at mindspring.com) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2008 22:37:17 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Repost: The Big One Message-ID: <19017799.1216175837995.JavaMail.root@elwamui-huard.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Bekah, this is an excellent discussion of why well-rounded characters are beside the point in Pynchon's books. I'd still argue, though, that there are too many main characters whose roles overlap in ATD. In The Brothers Karamazov, for example, the three brothers symbolize body, mind, and spirit and are markedly different in personality. Reef, Frank and Kit have some minor differences of temperament and occupation and differ in their travels, but ultimately they're not very different. It doesn't matter whether they're flat or round, it does matter that they're too similar. Laura -----Original Message----- >From: Bekah >Sent: Jul 15, 2008 6:25 PM >To: P-list >Subject: Re: Repost: The Big One > >First, I love PYnchon and I love Oedpia so there is no criticism in >the following post! > > To use flat or rounded characters has no effect on the value of a >work unless the author used flat ones where they should have been >rounded because the themes are of personal change or something but >you never do get to "know" the main character - disgusting books. I >speak of "knowing" a character in terms of intimate knowing - not >who, what, where, when - but the whys and wherefores of her. > > Pynchon is perfect in his use of flattish characters. We don't >"know" them and "care" about them. We don't cry when they cry or >rejoice at their success. We're not scared for them. They're >always "characters in novel." We can describe these characters in a >sentence or two (we might need pages to tell what they do). > >Rounded characters have a large emotional aspect, their >personalities are developed as being unique and changeable. We feel >like we "know" them as individual people and care about them and what >happens to them. It takes pages to describe them and their ways >but maybe only a page or two to tell what they actually do in the novel. > >(Btw, these terms are from E.M. Forster back in the 1920s or >something and not meant for post-mod lit. Even he did not disparage >flat characters - it's just an alternative an author makes about >where the emphasis of a book will be. He said the characters of >Dickens were somewhat flat. > >I think that only Tolstoy in War & Peace was able to deal >successfully and so deeply with "big issues" and themes (history - >fate) while developing fully developed and rounded characters as >well. The careful reader "knows" Pierre and Natasha and shoot, >even Napoleon. If I were to describe Pierre I could tell me about >him as a person. If I described Oedipa I would basically tell you >her demographics and put far more importance on her detection and >what she did. I'm not going to say that Pynchon is the Tolstoy of >the 20th / 21st century. We won't have one like him again. > > >I think whether or not you see Oedipa as a "flattish" or "roundish" >character is in comparison to what else you've read. If you've been >reading a lot of pomo or sci-fi or detective novels she's as rounded >as most. If you've been reading Middlemarch she is totally flat - >like many post-modern characters to a person reading 19th century >lit. The flat/round thing is a "range," not a black/white deal and >it's relative to other characters and subjective - in the reader's >response (to an extent). > > >Oedipa starts out from Kinneret-Among-The-Pines as a typical >"Tupperware" housewife with a rather boring but hipster type >husband. This id announcing that she is a middle-class, married >and moderately young and hip woman. So far I take Oedipa to be a >"type" character and therefore "flattish." I don't really know >"her." I know hundreds like her. That's the point - she is >"everywoman." Oedipa's personality and character have to take >backstage for the plot to get about its business developing the >themes. She has a personality and a character but so does a >detective in a crime novel - She's not the point of the book so >Pynchon doesn't w.a.s.t.e. a lot of words in developing her as a >unique and interesting character. Her development is not a part >of the plot or themes. The themes which Pynchon explores, using >Oedipa, as a vehicle, are paranoia, conspiracy, reality vs >fiction, etc. In MY reading of this book, she's never >emotionally fleshed out, she springs forth as fully developed as >she's going to get in this book and her character doesn't really >change much (find redemption). > >The text deals with her intellectual processes as she works from >scene to scene trying to make sense of and follow the threads of >Pierce Invararity's will. The theme has nothing to do with a change >in Oedipa (although we can probably assume she does) - it has to do >with conspiracies and all the things she tries to track down or sees >or intuits and stuff. Hers is an intellectual challenge - like a >detective - not a moral/personal development challenge. > > > Bekah >babbling > > > > >On Jul 15, 2008, at 11:03 AM, robinlandseadel at comcast.net wrote: > >> "Ian Livingston: >> And if Oedipa is flat, I am really confused. >> >> Part of the reason CoL 49 is my favorite is that Via Oed we find >> ourselves inside the head of someone on the verge of revelation, >> with all the emotional turmoil and strangeness that goes into that >> experience of internal transformation. >> >> >> >> >> >> From: Ian Livingston >> Date: July 15, 2008 10:10:20 AM PDT >> To: David Payne , pynchon-l at waste.org >> Subject: Re: Repost: The Big One >> >> >> >> Well, >> >> Maybe I'm confused about what makes a character "round." Many >> authors, yes, offer characters from within, if you will, talking >> about their moral and intellectual struggles as if the author and >> therefore the reader were, in fact, occupying that character's >> ego. Many other authors present characters that become quite well- >> rounded without ever getting inside the character's head. >> Hemmingway comes quickly to mind. Joyce, too, on occasion, and his >> smarter sister in crime, Virginia Woolf. It seems to me that what >> makes a character more or less round is the degree of change that >> character evidences over the course of the narrative. For >> instance, how much does Cyprian change, or deepen as we get to know >> him? Frank? Vibe? Dally? Yash? Kit? etc. It seems to me some >> of these characters are more rounded than others, because we get to >> know them better and watch them change over time, deepen as >> individuals. Vibe is clearly flat, stock. He is the greed he is >> meant to portray and nothing more. >> >> The point is, moral struggle is not necessarily something we have >> to explicitly hear. We can observe it. When Yashmeen loses her >> ability to warp space and time, what do we know about her >> experience of that loss? (or gain?) When people experience moral >> turmoil it really is rather rare that they are able to formulate >> the questions, much less explicitly contemplate the issues >> involved. Why should it be otherwise with characters? After all, >> characters are the issue of human intelligence, they are born of >> the workings of an individual mind, shadows cast on the cave wall >> by the interior light of the microcosmic Sol. Is it not proper >> that they should resemble us? I have often been alienated and >> dismayed by characters who seem to know too much about themselves >> and the world, who are not a little lost in things and acting >> largely on impulse, mostly mimetically. It is something I >> especially like about Pynchon's characters that they are so often >> mute on the subject of subjective experience and, when we do see or >> hear their subjective experience, it is so often a sort of "Whoa! >> What's happening here?" Not some concise summary of the >> intellectual and moral consequences of everything a la Hesse or >> Frank Herbert, perhaps even Cormac McCarthy at times. We do not, >> for instance, hear Cyprian's cognitive struggles over his decision >> to stay at the convent, to leave his worldly lovers in favor of a >> divine lover. But we see that he changes as a result of the >> subjective turmoil. He doesn't just jump ship, he is torn and >> decides. Little as I identify with him at some levels, it is the >> way he negotiates his doubts that makes him a powerful, round >> character. >> >> But then, maybe I am mistaken about "roundness." >> >> And if Oedipa is flat, I am really confused. Or Katje. Or Pugnax, >> for that matter. >> >> On Mon, Jul 14, 2008 at 11:32 PM, David Payne >> wrote: >> >> On Mon, 14 Jul 2008 (23:44:27 -0400), Laura (kelber at mindspring.com) >> wrote: >> >> > If you're expecting an impassioned defense of TRP's ability to >> draw well-rounded characters, you won't be getting it from me. >> >> Well, no, actually, I wasn't, which is why I said it was a joke, >> satire. >> >> And that's twice I've apparently unintentionally implied something >> that I did not mean to convey. >> >> I'll try asking questions for the third time and then just shut up, >> which seems, perhaps, to be desired. >> >> Sticking with the topic at hand, don't most writers create rounded >> characters by presenting a moral dilemma and then demonstrating the >> character's inner struggle and the resulting moral evolution? >> >> Does Pynchon do this? >> >> If not, why? If so, where and why? (Some postings have already >> answered this as "yes"; specifically, both Laura and Mark pointed >> to Frank and the train crash on page 985.) >> >> Finally, does Pynchon's moral view point extend beyond the reaction >> of his characters' individual personal reactions to their >> individual dilemmas? >> >> Please take my comments a face value, b/c my son bought ice cream >> from an ice-cream truck for the first time yesterday. Boy-oh-boy >> was he ever excited to learn that people actually drive around in >> trucks full of ice cream on hot summer days, trying to unload their >> merchandise. >> >> >> _________________________________________________________________ >> Making the world a better place one message at a time. >> http://www.imtalkathon.com/?source=EML_WLH_Talkathon_BetterPlace >> > From dpayne1912 at hotmail.com Tue Jul 15 22:39:46 2008 From: dpayne1912 at hotmail.com (David Payne) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2008 03:39:46 +0000 Subject: Pondering an M&D road trip... In-Reply-To: <0A9745774F2BF6409F9544231DCC2661091C3600@vime1.rdg-home.ad.rdg.ac.uk> References: <10937403.1215958092970.JavaMail.root@elwamui-huard.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <000b01c8e4f6$c9842eb0$5c8c8c10$@com> <0A9745774F2BF6409F9544231DCC2661091C3600@vime1.rdg-home.ad.rdg.ac.uk> Message-ID: On Tue, 15 Jul 2008 (16:30:47 +0100), Guy x (g.i.s.pursey at reading.ac.uk) wrote: > I was reading M&D for the first time and as I was coming to the end [...] I read some of the book on the train and, as we > were pulling into Durham, that's where the book's action moved to. I > walked down to look at the River Wear and actually finished the book > during my stay there. If yr at all into graphic novels (I hate that term -- sounds too kinky), check out Bryan Talbot's _Alice in Sunderland_. It covers some of the same Northern English geography as M&D (including the River Wear), and, like M&D, is incredibly well-researched as well as highly entertaining. (The bibliography in _Sunderland_ includes, I am willing to bet, some books that Pynchon read as research for M&D.) Plus, it is absolutely gorgeous. The rest of this post is from Amazon, quoting reviews from elsewhere: >From Publishers Weekly Starred Review. Talbot's freewheeling, metafictional magnum opus is a map of the curious and delightful territory of its cartoonist's mind, starring himself in multiple roles. The starting point is the history of his hometown, the northeast English city of Sunderland, along with his lifelong fascination with the myths and realities behind Lewis Carroll and Alice in Wonderland—potentially dry material, but Talbot pulls out all the stops to keep it entertaining. He veers off on one fascinating tangent after another. The book encompasses dead-on parodies of EC horror comics, British boys' comics and Hergé's Tintin, walk-ons by local heroes like Sidney James, extensive analysis of a couple of William Hogarth prints, a cameo appearance by the Venerable Scott McComics-Expert and even a song-and-dance number, drawing a three-dimensional web of coincidences and connections between all. It's also a showcase for the explosive verve of Talbot's protean illustrative style, with digital collages of multiple media on almost every page: pen-and-ink drawings in a striking variety of styles, photographs, painting, computer modeling, and all manner of found images. The book's only real weakness is its scattered focus, but Talbot is a remarkable raconteur, even if what he's presenting is more a variety show than a story. (Apr.) Copyright © Reed Business Information, a division of Reed Elsevier Inc. All rights reserved. >From Booklist *Starred Review* Lewis Carroll's Alice's Adventures in Wonderland (1865) and Through the Looking Glass(1872) have had an immeasurable impact on children's literature and, indeed, the entire spectrum of popular entertainment, with Carroll's absurdist wordplay and surreal scenarios inspiring artistic visionaries from Salvador Dali to John Lennon. Of English writers, only Shakespeare is more frequently quoted. Such interesting literary tidbits as those abound in Talbot's lavishly illustrated graphic "entertainment" tracing the historical and cultural influences behind Carroll's masterpieces. The launching pad for Talbot's alternately fanciful and didactic exposition is the Empire Theatre in Sunderland, a former shipping port in northeastern England and a favorite Carroll haunt. Talbot's chosen stage manager-narrator is his own illustrated doppelganger, who takes the Empire stage for an audience of one and proceeds on a breathtaking tour through Sunderland's colorful history. Along with insights into famous battles, bridges, and ghost-infested castles, Talbot provides updates to Carroll's biography via recent information concerning his controversial relationship to the "real" Alice, Alice Liddell (1852-1934). Talbot's talented team of collaborating illustrators weaves a rich tapestry of artistic styles, ranging from superlative pen-and-ink drawing to colorized faux photography. They make a beautiful coffee-table volume of what may come to stand with Martin Gardner's The Annotated Alice(1960; rev. ed., 1990) as an indispensable trove of Wonderland lore. Carl Hays Copyright © American Library Association. All rights reserved _________________________________________________________________ It’s a talkathon – but it’s not just talk. http://www.imtalkathon.com/?source=EML_WLH_Talkathon_JustTalk From isread at btinternet.com Wed Jul 16 00:31:43 2008 From: isread at btinternet.com (Paul Nightingale) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2008 06:31:43 +0100 Subject: Atdtda28: Pilgrim, 785-786 Message-ID: <001501c8e705$3d7bb7b0$b8732710$@com> Again the section begins by asking the reader to play catch-up: "Kit had almost gotten used ..." etc. And so to: "... one day he and Prance came across a band of reindeer herders ..." etc. And then the fast-forward: "... as Kit explained it later". At first we are told that Kit rides Kirghiz horses; this detail is immediately revised to include the similar but different "shaggier pony-size cousins, his feet all bur dragging along the ground". Down the page: "... the narrow track of his life branching now and then into unsuspected side trails". So the imprecision of the narrative moment, the 'now', is supplemented by the range of threads that Kit's life is "branching" into (until, finally, he will need the talking reindeer "to pilot him through confusions in the terrain", 786). For once Prance responds without scepticism or argument ("Of course ...", 785), taking over with the talking reindeer to sideline Kit. Prance is thus associated with "[f]olk out here" who talk to reindeer "all the time": back on 783 he was concerned that everyone thought him a Japanese spy. The reindeer has not spoken to Kit, of course, only appearing to act anthropomorphically; and Kit's judgement ("It didn't seem that odd ...", 785) is qualified by "... were said to do it ...", a reference less to the 'fact' of talking reindeer than to the power of belief. Again, over the page on 786, "herders . believ[e] ..." etc. The result of all this is that Kit enjoys another makeover, transformed into "a pilgrim who [needs] Ssagan to pilot him through confusions in the terrain". So he begins with a pony that is not a Kirghiz, "his feet all but dragging along the ground" (785); and finishes with a reindeer that might be "the reincarnation of a great Buriat teacher". This final development comes to us courtesy of Prance, responsible for interpreting/translating whatever has been going on among the herders. From lorentzen at hotmail.de Wed Jul 16 05:49:44 2008 From: lorentzen at hotmail.de (Kai Frederik Lorentzen) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2008 12:49:44 +0200 Subject: Repost: The Big One In-Reply-To: <29710890.1216131261183.JavaMail.root@elwamui-huard.atl.sa.earthlink.net> References: <29710890.1216131261183.JavaMail.root@elwamui-huard.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: "It is simply wrong to begin with a theme, symbol or other abstract unifying agent , and then try to force characters and events to conform to it." --- Thomas Pynchon: Slow Learner --- kfl > From: kelber at mindspring.com > I've never been bothered by the lack of "roundedness" of TRP's characters until ATD. As Bekah said, > he's more interested in exploring themes, and I don't have a problem with that. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mryc2903 at yahoo.fr Wed Jul 16 06:42:20 2008 From: mryc2903 at yahoo.fr (Michel Ryckx) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2008 11:42:20 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Pynchon article in Cycnos Message-ID: <286830.26454.qm@web27606.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Fairly recent article on Nabokov and Pynchon in French journal Cycnos (University of Nice, Sofia Antipolis: Susan Elizabeth Sweeney; "The V-Shaped Paradigm: Nabokov and Pynchon", Cycnos, 12.2 (put on line 25.06.2008). http://revel.unice.fr/cycnos/document.html?id=1475 Michel. _____________________________________________________________________________ Envoyez avec Yahoo! Mail. Une boite mail plus intelligente http://mail.yahoo.fr From g.i.s.pursey at reading.ac.uk Wed Jul 16 07:20:34 2008 From: g.i.s.pursey at reading.ac.uk (Guy Ian Scott Pursey) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2008 13:20:34 +0100 Subject: Pondering an M&D road trip... In-Reply-To: <00a301c8e694$92146ea0$b63d4be0$@com> References: <10937403.1215958092970.JavaMail.root@elwamui-huard.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <000b01c8e4f6$c9842eb0$5c8c8c10$@com> <0A9745774F2BF6409F9544231DCC2661091C3600@vime1.rdg-home.ad.rdg.ac.uk> <00a301c8e694$92146ea0$b63d4be0$@com> Message-ID: <0A9745774F2BF6409F9544231DCC2661091FF150@vime1.rdg-home.ad.rdg.ac.uk> I think that might be one of the many things that turned me on to Pynchon when I started - the humour seemed to be somehow... British? I don't that I can explain what a British sense of humour is or how it contrasts with American humour - perhaps it's more surreal and wildly sarcastic whereas American humour seems to be by contrast both more deadpan and more sincere...? Err... Anyway! Veering massively off-topic a-and now approaching controversial territory. What was it the Captain Zhang said about drawing lines and Bad History? Guy -----Original Message----- From: owner-pynchon-l at waste.org [mailto:owner-pynchon-l at waste.org] On Behalf Of Henry Sent: 15 July 2008 17:05 To: 'Pynchon Liste' Subject: RE: Pondering an M&D road trip... Guy, your post kicked me in the keister! I'm now thinking about Anglophilia in Pynch-Lit (Maybe I'll go back to school some day and actually write a paper! Nah. Doubt it.). Slothrop et al in LONDON! The Candy Drill! A-and Anglophile Japanese fellow from Hiroshima on the boat in GR! TWITS! Mason and Dixon! The list goes on! Why, P's books are almost as much of Brit as Yank! Henry Mu Information, Media, and Technology Consultant http://my.barackobama.com/page/community/blog/henrymu -----Original Message----- Could we snip things a little for the sake of indexing and our lower-speed Internet comrades? From markekohut at yahoo.com Wed Jul 16 07:41:30 2008 From: markekohut at yahoo.com (Mark Kohut) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2008 05:41:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Pondering an M&D road trip... In-Reply-To: <0A9745774F2BF6409F9544231DCC2661091FF150@vime1.rdg-home.ad.rdg.ac.uk> Message-ID: <887594.86908.qm@web38406.mail.mud.yahoo.com> yes, P seems to have more of that old-fashioned 'wit'...that might be more British; that is surely of the past..say, the Augustan age? A-and, T.S. Eliot wrote of the 'metaphysical wit' of poets such as Donne...yoking together wildly disparate concepts....(for Donne, one example, the body of his beloved with---blasphemy coming!---the Beatific Vision)............. Pynchon's over-the-top 'yokings' are of of the same kind, yes? (I mean Byron the Bulb?....the Giant Adenoid....The balloon boys and the World's Fair...........the Q-weapon and modernity..........Ferris wheels and mandalas, and on and on) --- On Wed, 7/16/08, Guy Ian Scott Pursey wrote: > From: Guy Ian Scott Pursey > Subject: RE: Pondering an M&D road trip... > To: "Pynchon Liste" > Date: Wednesday, July 16, 2008, 8:20 AM > I think that might be one of the many things that turned me > on to > Pynchon when I started - the humour seemed to be somehow... > British? I > don't that I can explain what a British sense of humour > is or how it > contrasts with American humour - perhaps it's more > surreal and wildly > sarcastic whereas American humour seems to be by contrast > both more > deadpan and more sincere...? > > Err... Anyway! Veering massively off-topic a-and now > approaching > controversial territory. What was it the Captain Zhang said > about > drawing lines and Bad History? > > Guy > > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-pynchon-l at waste.org > [mailto:owner-pynchon-l at waste.org] On > Behalf Of Henry > Sent: 15 July 2008 17:05 > To: 'Pynchon Liste' > Subject: RE: Pondering an M&D road trip... > > Guy, your post kicked me in the keister! I'm now > thinking about > Anglophilia > in Pynch-Lit (Maybe I'll go back to school some day and > actually write a > paper! Nah. Doubt it.). > > Slothrop et al in LONDON! The Candy Drill! A-and > Anglophile Japanese > fellow from Hiroshima on the boat in GR! TWITS! Mason and > Dixon! The > list > goes on! Why, P's books are almost as much of Brit as > Yank! > > Henry Mu > Information, Media, and Technology Consultant > > http://my.barackobama.com/page/community/blog/henrymu > > -----Original Message----- > Could we snip things a little for the sake of indexing and > our > lower-speed > Internet comrades? From bekker2 at mac.com Wed Jul 16 10:49:22 2008 From: bekker2 at mac.com (Bekah) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2008 08:49:22 -0700 Subject: Repost: The Big One In-Reply-To: <19017799.1216175837995.JavaMail.root@elwamui-huard.atl.sa.earthlink.net> References: <19017799.1216175837995.JavaMail.root@elwamui-huard.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: I think you have a good point there about the similarity of Kit, Reef and Frank. Really it seems the Traverse boys are almost interchangeable. But in order for this one seriously Western mentality to be all over the world at the same time, there has to be some bi-furcation (that can be in threes can't it?) from the source - Webb. (a feeble attempt in defense of OBA.) Bekah On Jul 15, 2008, at 7:37 PM, kelber at mindspring.com wrote: > Bekah, this is an excellent discussion of why well-rounded > characters are beside the point in Pynchon's books. I'd still > argue, though, that there are too many main characters whose roles > overlap in ATD. In The Brothers Karamazov, for example, the three > brothers symbolize body, mind, and spirit and are markedly > different in personality. Reef, Frank and Kit have some minor > differences of temperament and occupation and differ in their > travels, but ultimately they're not very different. It doesn't > matter whether they're flat or round, it does matter that they're > too similar. > > Laura > > -----Original Message----- >> From: Bekah >> Sent: Jul 15, 2008 6:25 PM >> To: P-list >> Subject: Re: Repost: The Big One >> >> First, I love PYnchon and I love Oedpia so there is no criticism in >> the following post! >> >> To use flat or rounded characters has no effect on the value of a >> work unless the author used flat ones where they should have been >> rounded because the themes are of personal change or something but >> you never do get to "know" the main character - disgusting books. I >> speak of "knowing" a character in terms of intimate knowing - not >> who, what, where, when - but the whys and wherefores of her. >> >> Pynchon is perfect in his use of flattish characters. We don't >> "know" them and "care" about them. We don't cry when they cry or >> rejoice at their success. We're not scared for them. They're >> always "characters in novel." We can describe these characters in a >> sentence or two (we might need pages to tell what they do). >> >> Rounded characters have a large emotional aspect, their >> personalities are developed as being unique and changeable. We feel >> like we "know" them as individual people and care about them and what >> happens to them. It takes pages to describe them and their ways >> but maybe only a page or two to tell what they actually do in the >> novel. >> >> (Btw, these terms are from E.M. Forster back in the 1920s or >> something and not meant for post-mod lit. Even he did not disparage >> flat characters - it's just an alternative an author makes about >> where the emphasis of a book will be. He said the characters of >> Dickens were somewhat flat. >> >> I think that only Tolstoy in War & Peace was able to deal >> successfully and so deeply with "big issues" and themes (history - >> fate) while developing fully developed and rounded characters as >> well. The careful reader "knows" Pierre and Natasha and shoot, >> even Napoleon. If I were to describe Pierre I could tell me about >> him as a person. If I described Oedipa I would basically tell you >> her demographics and put far more importance on her detection and >> what she did. I'm not going to say that Pynchon is the Tolstoy of >> the 20th / 21st century. We won't have one like him again. >> >> >> I think whether or not you see Oedipa as a "flattish" or "roundish" >> character is in comparison to what else you've read. If you've been >> reading a lot of pomo or sci-fi or detective novels she's as rounded >> as most. If you've been reading Middlemarch she is totally flat - >> like many post-modern characters to a person reading 19th century >> lit. The flat/round thing is a "range," not a black/white deal and >> it's relative to other characters and subjective - in the reader's >> response (to an extent). >> >> >> Oedipa starts out from Kinneret-Among-The-Pines as a typical >> "Tupperware" housewife with a rather boring but hipster type >> husband. This id announcing that she is a middle-class, married >> and moderately young and hip woman. So far I take Oedipa to be a >> "type" character and therefore "flattish." I don't really know >> "her." I know hundreds like her. That's the point - she is >> "everywoman." Oedipa's personality and character have to take >> backstage for the plot to get about its business developing the >> themes. She has a personality and a character but so does a >> detective in a crime novel - She's not the point of the book so >> Pynchon doesn't w.a.s.t.e. a lot of words in developing her as a >> unique and interesting character. Her development is not a part >> of the plot or themes. The themes which Pynchon explores, using >> Oedipa, as a vehicle, are paranoia, conspiracy, reality vs >> fiction, etc. In MY reading of this book, she's never >> emotionally fleshed out, she springs forth as fully developed as >> she's going to get in this book and her character doesn't really >> change much (find redemption). >> >> The text deals with her intellectual processes as she works from >> scene to scene trying to make sense of and follow the threads of >> Pierce Invararity's will. The theme has nothing to do with a change >> in Oedipa (although we can probably assume she does) - it has to do >> with conspiracies and all the things she tries to track down or sees >> or intuits and stuff. Hers is an intellectual challenge - like a >> detective - not a moral/personal development challenge. >> >> >> Bekah >> babbling >> >> >> >> >> On Jul 15, 2008, at 11:03 AM, robinlandseadel at comcast.net wrote: >> >>> "Ian Livingston: >>> And if Oedipa is flat, I am really confused. >>> >>> Part of the reason CoL 49 is my favorite is that Via Oed we find >>> ourselves inside the head of someone on the verge of revelation, >>> with all the emotional turmoil and strangeness that goes into that >>> experience of internal transformation. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> From: Ian Livingston >>> Date: July 15, 2008 10:10:20 AM PDT >>> To: David Payne , pynchon-l at waste.org >>> Subject: Re: Repost: The Big One >>> >>> >>> >>> Well, >>> >>> Maybe I'm confused about what makes a character "round." Many >>> authors, yes, offer characters from within, if you will, talking >>> about their moral and intellectual struggles as if the author and >>> therefore the reader were, in fact, occupying that character's >>> ego. Many other authors present characters that become quite well- >>> rounded without ever getting inside the character's head. >>> Hemmingway comes quickly to mind. Joyce, too, on occasion, and his >>> smarter sister in crime, Virginia Woolf. It seems to me that what >>> makes a character more or less round is the degree of change that >>> character evidences over the course of the narrative. For >>> instance, how much does Cyprian change, or deepen as we get to know >>> him? Frank? Vibe? Dally? Yash? Kit? etc. It seems to me some >>> of these characters are more rounded than others, because we get to >>> know them better and watch them change over time, deepen as >>> individuals. Vibe is clearly flat, stock. He is the greed he is >>> meant to portray and nothing more. >>> >>> The point is, moral struggle is not necessarily something we have >>> to explicitly hear. We can observe it. When Yashmeen loses her >>> ability to warp space and time, what do we know about her >>> experience of that loss? (or gain?) When people experience moral >>> turmoil it really is rather rare that they are able to formulate >>> the questions, much less explicitly contemplate the issues >>> involved. Why should it be otherwise with characters? After all, >>> characters are the issue of human intelligence, they are born of >>> the workings of an individual mind, shadows cast on the cave wall >>> by the interior light of the microcosmic Sol. Is it not proper >>> that they should resemble us? I have often been alienated and >>> dismayed by characters who seem to know too much about themselves >>> and the world, who are not a little lost in things and acting >>> largely on impulse, mostly mimetically. It is something I >>> especially like about Pynchon's characters that they are so often >>> mute on the subject of subjective experience and, when we do see or >>> hear their subjective experience, it is so often a sort of "Whoa! >>> What's happening here?" Not some concise summary of the >>> intellectual and moral consequences of everything a la Hesse or >>> Frank Herbert, perhaps even Cormac McCarthy at times. We do not, >>> for instance, hear Cyprian's cognitive struggles over his decision >>> to stay at the convent, to leave his worldly lovers in favor of a >>> divine lover. But we see that he changes as a result of the >>> subjective turmoil. He doesn't just jump ship, he is torn and >>> decides. Little as I identify with him at some levels, it is the >>> way he negotiates his doubts that makes him a powerful, round >>> character. >>> >>> But then, maybe I am mistaken about "roundness." >>> >>> And if Oedipa is flat, I am really confused. Or Katje. Or Pugnax, >>> for that matter. >>> >>> On Mon, Jul 14, 2008 at 11:32 PM, David Payne >>> wrote: >>> >>> On Mon, 14 Jul 2008 (23:44:27 -0400), Laura (kelber at mindspring.com) >>> wrote: >>> >>>> If you're expecting an impassioned defense of TRP's ability to >>> draw well-rounded characters, you won't be getting it from me. >>> >>> Well, no, actually, I wasn't, which is why I said it was a joke, >>> satire. >>> >>> And that's twice I've apparently unintentionally implied something >>> that I did not mean to convey. >>> >>> I'll try asking questions for the third time and then just shut up, >>> which seems, perhaps, to be desired. >>> >>> Sticking with the topic at hand, don't most writers create rounded >>> characters by presenting a moral dilemma and then demonstrating the >>> character's inner struggle and the resulting moral evolution? >>> >>> Does Pynchon do this? >>> >>> If not, why? If so, where and why? (Some postings have already >>> answered this as "yes"; specifically, both Laura and Mark pointed >>> to Frank and the train crash on page 985.) >>> >>> Finally, does Pynchon's moral view point extend beyond the reaction >>> of his characters' individual personal reactions to their >>> individual dilemmas? >>> >>> Please take my comments a face value, b/c my son bought ice cream >>> from an ice-cream truck for the first time yesterday. Boy-oh-boy >>> was he ever excited to learn that people actually drive around in >>> trucks full of ice cream on hot summer days, trying to unload their >>> merchandise. >>> >>> >>> _________________________________________________________________ >>> Making the world a better place one message at a time. >>> http://www.imtalkathon.com/?source=EML_WLH_Talkathon_BetterPlace >>> >> > From paul.mackin at verizon.net Wed Jul 16 12:22:02 2008 From: paul.mackin at verizon.net (Paul Mackin) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2008 13:22:02 -0400 Subject: Repost: The Big One In-Reply-To: <700775.83210.qm@web38408.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <700775.83210.qm@web38408.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <487E2E3A.50105@verizon.net> Mark Kohut wrote: > A few obs. > > I have often thought that the non-rounded characters in much of Pynchon's work is because we real human beings aren't too "round" in our current degraded world,in Pynchon's worledview. > You may be on to something, Mark. I remember back about 40 years ago being told that we were ONE-dimensional men. In Pynchon's world, however, we are surely more like hyper-paranoid men. What kind of distinctive character trait would required for that? Guess I'm talking about GR--don't know what the hell happened after that. Perhaps characters in the True Land of Paranoia don't need much character--we can pretty much forget shapes. Getting buffeted around by all those interconnecting forces (everything connects) doesn't leave much room for individual discretion. I have long suspected that reading too much Pynchon can make people act kind of peculiarly. For example, some of us adopt the phrase "everything connects" as sort of a motto. That gives me pause. A little tiny pause anyway. What if the satirical origins get lost? It might be wise to take a lesson from the case of the cover of this issue of The New Yorker. Some folks may not realize they aren't in Kansas anymore. (not too many I hope) But getting back to "everything connects," yes a lot of things ARE connected, and we should we conscious of this, but there are still a lot of other things that are not. To believe that everything is connected can be the mark of a psychotic. (a real one) A well-meaning sane person who thinks too inclusively here runs the danger of not picking up on the connections that really exist. I duuno where this is going . . . . except I did want to let Mark know I liked his idea. P. From kelber at mindspring.com Wed Jul 16 12:38:43 2008 From: kelber at mindspring.com (kelber at mindspring.com) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2008 13:38:43 -0400 (GMT-04:00) Subject: Repost: The Big One Message-ID: <22973169.1216229923621.JavaMail.root@mswamui-blood.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Face it, with few exceptions, we're all boring-assed people leading stultifyingly dreary lives (I'm guiltier here than most), with nary a well-developed character, plot line or theme in sight. That's why we turn to fiction ... Laura -----Original Message----- >From: Paul Mackin >Sent: Jul 16, 2008 1:22 PM >To: pynchon-l at waste.org >Subject: Re: Repost: The Big One > >Mark Kohut wrote: >> A few obs. >> >> I have often thought that the non-rounded characters in much of Pynchon's work is because we real human beings aren't too "round" in our current degraded world,in Pynchon's worledview. >> >You may be on to something, Mark. > >I remember back about 40 years ago being told that we were >ONE-dimensional men. > >In Pynchon's world, however, we are surely more like hyper-paranoid men. > >What kind of distinctive character trait would required for that? > >Guess I'm talking about GR--don't know what the hell happened after that. > >Perhaps characters in the True Land of Paranoia don't need much >character--we can pretty much forget shapes. > >Getting buffeted around by all those interconnecting forces (everything >connects) doesn't leave much room for individual discretion. > >I have long suspected that reading too much Pynchon can make people act >kind of peculiarly. > >For example, some of us adopt the phrase "everything connects" as sort >of a motto. > >That gives me pause. A little tiny pause anyway. > >What if the satirical origins get lost? > >It might be wise to take a lesson from the case of the cover of this >issue of The New Yorker. > >Some folks may not realize they aren't in Kansas anymore. (not too many >I hope) > >But getting back to "everything connects," yes a lot of things ARE >connected, and we should we conscious of this, but there are still a >lot of other things that are not. > >To believe that everything is connected can be the mark of a psychotic. >(a real one) > >A well-meaning sane person who thinks too inclusively here runs the >danger of not picking up on the connections that really exist. > >I duuno where this is going . . . . except I did want to let Mark know >I liked his idea. > >P. > > > > > > > > From scuffling at gmail.com Wed Jul 16 12:57:55 2008 From: scuffling at gmail.com (Henry) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2008 13:57:55 -0400 Subject: Repost: The Big One In-Reply-To: <22973169.1216229923621.JavaMail.root@mswamui-blood.atl.sa.earthlink.net> References: <22973169.1216229923621.JavaMail.root@mswamui-blood.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <007801c8e76d$7a164330$6e42c990$@com> I turn to fiction because of the hubris of non-fiction's posing as fact when, in fact, fact is in the arty-facts. Most of us (usual caveat) are "boring-assed people." However, we are rounded by our very/actual existence, (if not well-rounded). HENRY MU Information, Media, and Technology Consultant http://my.barackobama.com/page/community/blog/henrymu -----Original Message----- From: owner-pynchon-l at waste.org [mailto:owner-pynchon-l at waste.org] On Behalf Of kelber at mindspring.com Sent: Wednesday, July 16, 2008 1:39 PM To: pynchon-l at waste.org Subject: Re: Repost: The Big One Face it, with few exceptions, we're all boring-assed people leading stultifyingly dreary lives (I'm guiltier here than most), with nary a well-developed character, plot line or theme in sight. That's why we turn to fiction ... Laura From markekohut at yahoo.com Wed Jul 16 21:24:12 2008 From: markekohut at yahoo.com (Mark Kohut) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2008 19:24:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Repost: The Big One In-Reply-To: <487E2E3A.50105@verizon.net> Message-ID: <976932.43079.qm@web38403.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Thanks, Paul. I do think I know, worked with some people every day for years, and they were fragments of people, just as are some in GR... And in Pynchon's world of doubled down meanings, think of the upside of 'everything connects"....a wholeness beyond fragmentation.... mark --- On Wed, 7/16/08, Paul Mackin wrote: > From: Paul Mackin > Subject: Re: Repost: The Big One > To: pynchon-l at waste.org > Date: Wednesday, July 16, 2008, 1:22 PM > Mark Kohut wrote: > > A few obs. > > > > I have often thought that the non-rounded characters > in much of Pynchon's work is because we real human > beings aren't too "round" in our current > degraded world,in Pynchon's worledview. > > > You may be on to something, Mark. > > I remember back about 40 years ago being told that we were > ONE-dimensional men. > > In Pynchon's world, however, we are surely more like > hyper-paranoid men. > > What kind of distinctive character trait would required for > that? > > Guess I'm talking about GR--don't know what the > hell happened after that. > > Perhaps characters in the True Land of Paranoia don't > need much > character--we can pretty much forget shapes. > > Getting buffeted around by all those interconnecting forces > (everything > connects) doesn't leave much room for individual > discretion. > > I have long suspected that reading too much Pynchon can > make people act > kind of peculiarly. > > For example, some of us adopt the phrase "everything > connects" as sort > of a motto. > > That gives me pause. A little tiny pause anyway. > > What if the satirical origins get lost? > > It might be wise to take a lesson from the case of the > cover of this > issue of The New Yorker. > > Some folks may not realize they aren't in Kansas > anymore. (not too many > I hope) > > But getting back to "everything connects," yes a > lot of things ARE > connected, and we should we conscious of this, but there > are still a > lot of other things that are not. > > To believe that everything is connected can be the mark of > a psychotic. > (a real one) > > A well-meaning sane person who thinks too inclusively here > runs the > danger of not picking up on the connections that really > exist. > > I duuno where this is going . . . . except I did want to > let Mark know > I liked his idea. > > P. From robinlandseadel at comcast.net Thu Jul 17 09:32:21 2008 From: robinlandseadel at comcast.net (robinlandseadel at comcast.net) Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2008 14:32:21 +0000 Subject: ATDTDA (38)Pink Tabs, cover [again] Message-ID: <071720081432.2670.487F57F500056F5B00000A6E2216554886040A0B0E0A9C0B020E0402070D019D@comcast.net> Some mo' crazy, crazy, crazy talk. Ok, first off: Calcite & stamps. Concerning the appearance of the cover, how would you get that effect using calcite? There's some really nice examples at the Unicorn, and I've been looking at them quite a bit. I'll try it sometime to confirm it, but I'd guess you could get that "look" by drawing on the calcite with a marker. Or "stamping" it. In any case, there are three type faces on the cover. The topmost layer is the sort of san-serif font that you're reading right now. Not identical, but it's modern style, the obvious product of an age seeking to be streamlined and efficient. The two fonts behind seem to mark earlier historical layers, ghosts of the past---Henry James, and Dickens, & Proust viewed from the present, the "Now". Notice how the stamp for "The Tibetan Chamber of Commerce" is only the topmost layer---no back reflections, no ghosts, only the "Now", like Shambhala. Note as well that we are firmly in "Cinderella" territory with the stamp: A Cinderella stamp is any non-postage stamp. The oft-neglected stepchild of the postage stamp, a Cinderella may look like a stamp, but it won't carry the mail. The category includes locals, labels, tax stamps, fiscals, poster stamps, charity seals, forgeries, fantasies, phantoms, revenues, etc. Some are more elaborately designed than the postage stamps they imitate. The hard-core philatelist scorns any stamp that didn't carry the mail, but others find these philatelic by-ways fascinating and rewarding. Philatelic Exhibition Seals are a popular sideline among stamp collectors. The heyday for Cinderellas in the U.S. was the 1920's and 1930's, when many beautifully designed engraved examples were produced. http://alphabetilately.com/C.html http://tinyurl.com/66onup The stamp is the sort of slap you in the face insult of a stamp that Gengis Cohen was raving about in The Crying of Lot 49: "Normally this issue, and the others, are unwater-marked," Cohen said, "and in view of other details the hatching, number of perforations, way the paper has agedit's obviously a counterfeit. Not just an error." "Then it isn't worth anything." Cohen smiled, blew his nose. "You'd be amazed how much you can sell an honest forgery for. Some collectors specialize in them. The question is, who did these? They're atrocious." He flipped the stamp over and with the tip of the tweezers showed her. The picture had a Pony Express rider galloping out of a western fort. From shrubbery over on the right-hand side and possibly in the direction the rider would be heading, protruded a single, painstakingly engraved, black feather. "Why put in a deliberate mistake?" he asked, ignoring---if he saw it---the look on her face. "I've come up so far with eight in all. Each one has an error like this, laboriously worked into the design, like a taunt. There's even a transposition---U. S. Potsage, of all things." And having a "Tibetan Chamber of Commerce" stamp---well, let's just wait till we're back with Kit and Lord Overlunch to suss that one out. http://www.tibetancc.org/ The stamp on the topmost layer of the cover is in the old style of stamps made within close memory of the Kirghiz Light. So it is not only a forgery, it is a forgery in the spirit of the W.A.S.T.E. postal syste. Of course, in Against the Day we are witnessing some of the first radios, [Tesla's Invention], Madame Eskimov's really loud record player and other new and previously un-experienced forms of distortion, entropy [or Eris] stealing into the circuitry. Not to mention quite a few anarchist mail systems. Ah, but why all this obsession over a potsage stamp? Because, it's a clue---in this stew of genre fictions it's the mystery that rises to the top. From against.the.dave at gmail.com Thu Jul 17 10:56:57 2008 From: against.the.dave at gmail.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2008 10:56:57 -0500 Subject: Miami and the Siege of Chicago Message-ID: Miami and the Siege of Chicago By Norman Mailer Introduction by Frank Rich 1968. The Vietnam War was raging. President Lyndon Johnson, facing a challenge in his own Democratic Party from the maverick antiwar candidate Eugene McCarthy, announced that he would not seek a second term. In April, Martin Luther King Jr. was assassinated and riots broke out in inner cities throughout America. Bobby Kennedy was killed after winning the California primary in June. In August, Republicans met in Miami, picking the little-loved Richard Nixon as their candidate, while in September, Democrats in Chicago backed the ineffectual vice president, Hubert Humphrey. TVs across the country showed antiwar protesters filling the streets of Chicago and the police running amok, beating and arresting demonstrators and delegates alike. In Miami and the Siege of Chicago, Norman Mailer, America's most protean and provocative writer, brings a novelist's eye to bear on the events of 1968, a decisive year in modern American politics, from which today's bitterly divided country arose. http://www.nybooks.com/shop/product?usca_p=t&product_id=8033 From richard.romeo at gmail.com Thu Jul 17 13:30:41 2008 From: richard.romeo at gmail.com (rich) Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2008 14:30:41 -0400 Subject: Enzian and Tchitcherine Message-ID: <830c13f40807171130s635430aaod31f5e9297a91b74@mail.gmail.com> almost done with another re-read of GR. Can anyone adequately describe the reason Tchitcherine is obsessed with killing his half-brother Enzian? don't really understand his personal motivation here--is it just a Cain and Abel deal? rich From igrlivingston at gmail.com Thu Jul 17 13:49:26 2008 From: igrlivingston at gmail.com (Ian Livingston) Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2008 11:49:26 -0700 Subject: Repost: The Big One In-Reply-To: <976932.43079.qm@web38403.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <487E2E3A.50105@verizon.net> <976932.43079.qm@web38403.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <95cde1ee0807171149me02b630ma4ba6a3964bb60b1@mail.gmail.com> Boy, I missed out on some fun stuff while I was out in the world yesterday! You see, I fail to live one of those boring, stultified lives. I am a caretaker on a very remote ranch near Big Sur and everyday is new, filled with new challenges both emotional (I live alone, far from people) and cognitive (I read extensively and grapple with ideas from plumbing to Plato) so flattish life would not serve me well. Perhaps that is why I find round characters everywhere. To paraphrase Joyce again: we meet ourselves in the world around us. That is also a point raised in Jung: the individual is lost in systems (please watch "Network" again - all this is argued beautifully in that masterpiece), but the system exists ONLY by fact of individual participation. Systems do not have a dominant monad, a central unifying consciousness. They cannot feel, invent, think independently of the individuals within them. I see this happening in our boy's work. The individuals move through systems, alchemically shifting nuances as needed to negotiate the byways through the complex world of non-nations and retain their identities. I failed to get lost between the brothers Traverse primarily because of the elements associated with each, though each in fact requires the association of all the elements. So, yes, the idea dominates, but the individual is formed by his temperament. I agree with Bekah that there is no black and white flat v. round nature, but I would argue a more Taoist read, that apparent anarchy is simply the impure nature of worldly things. And I would argue it is the impurity that makes each character and system more or less amenable to us as readers. On Wed, Jul 16, 2008 at 7:24 PM, Mark Kohut wrote: > Thanks, Paul. > > I do think I know, worked with some people every day for years, and they > were fragments of people, just as are some in GR... > > And in Pynchon's world of doubled down meanings, think of the upside of > 'everything connects"....a wholeness beyond fragmentation.... > > mark > > > --- On Wed, 7/16/08, Paul Mackin wrote: > > > From: Paul Mackin > > Subject: Re: Repost: The Big One > > To: pynchon-l at waste.org > > Date: Wednesday, July 16, 2008, 1:22 PM > > Mark Kohut wrote: > > > A few obs. > > > > > > I have often thought that the non-rounded characters > > in much of Pynchon's work is because we real human > > beings aren't too "round" in our current > > degraded world,in Pynchon's worledview. > > > > > You may be on to something, Mark. > > > > I remember back about 40 years ago being told that we were > > ONE-dimensional men. > > > > In Pynchon's world, however, we are surely more like > > hyper-paranoid men. > > > > What kind of distinctive character trait would required for > > that? > > > > Guess I'm talking about GR--don't know what the > > hell happened after that. > > > > Perhaps characters in the True Land of Paranoia don't > > need much > > character--we can pretty much forget shapes. > > > > Getting buffeted around by all those interconnecting forces > > (everything > > connects) doesn't leave much room for individual > > discretion. > > > > I have long suspected that reading too much Pynchon can > > make people act > > kind of peculiarly. > > > > For example, some of us adopt the phrase "everything > > connects" as sort > > of a motto. > > > > That gives me pause. A little tiny pause anyway. > > > > What if the satirical origins get lost? > > > > It might be wise to take a lesson from the case of the > > cover of this > > issue of The New Yorker. > > > > Some folks may not realize they aren't in Kansas > > anymore. (not too many > > I hope) > > > > But getting back to "everything connects," yes a > > lot of things ARE > > connected, and we should we conscious of this, but there > > are still a > > lot of other things that are not. > > > > To believe that everything is connected can be the mark of > > a psychotic. > > (a real one) > > > > A well-meaning sane person who thinks too inclusively here > > runs the > > danger of not picking up on the connections that really > > exist. > > > > I duuno where this is going . . . . except I did want to > > let Mark know > > I liked his idea. > > > > P. > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From richardryannyc at yahoo.com Thu Jul 17 14:14:44 2008 From: richardryannyc at yahoo.com (Richard Ryan) Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2008 12:14:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Repost: The Big One In-Reply-To: <95cde1ee0807171149me02b630ma4ba6a3964bb60b1@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <795346.17445.qm@web50707.mail.re2.yahoo.com> I myself am like a hockey puck, simultaneously flat AND round. By the way, has there been a thread I've overlooked investigating the intriguing fact that OBA and his missus chose to give their son their two last names? I was thinking about this (I'm a person with two first names, so I'm the same, only different) and it occurred to me that it must has started with a discussion or perhaps even an argument between the two of them about whether or not his last name would be hyphenated. And then perhaps they got so exhausted and impatient with each other that they didn't have the energy to come with a first name so all that got put on the birth certificate was Jackson-Pynchon. Eventually the hyphen dropped out. Or maybe they had wanted to keep it and re-iterate their two names, in which case the young man would have been Jackson Pynchon Jackson-Pynchon. Or Jackson Pynchon Pynchon-Jackson depending on their mood. --- On Thu, 7/17/08, Ian Livingston wrote: > From: Ian Livingston > Subject: Re: Repost: The Big One > To: markekohut at yahoo.com > Cc: "Paul Mackin" , "pynchon -l" > Date: Thursday, July 17, 2008, 2:49 PM > Boy, I missed out on some fun stuff while I was out in the > world yesterday! > You see, I fail to live one of those boring, stultified > lives. I am a > caretaker on a very remote ranch near Big Sur and everyday > is new, filled > with new challenges both emotional (I live alone, far from > people) and > cognitive (I read extensively and grapple with ideas from > plumbing to Plato) > so flattish life would not serve me well. Perhaps that is > why I find round > characters everywhere. To paraphrase Joyce again: we meet > ourselves in the > world around us. That is also a point raised in Jung: > the individual is > lost in systems (please watch "Network" again - > all this is argued > beautifully in that masterpiece), but the system exists > ONLY by fact of > individual participation. Systems do not have a dominant > monad, a central > unifying consciousness. They cannot feel, invent, think > independently of > the individuals within them. I see this happening in our > boy's work. The > individuals move through systems, alchemically shifting > nuances as needed to > negotiate the byways through the complex world of > non-nations and retain > their identities. I failed to get lost between the > brothers Traverse > primarily because of the elements associated with each, > though each in fact > requires the association of all the elements. So, yes, the > idea dominates, > but the individual is formed by his temperament. I agree > with Bekah that > there is no black and white flat v. round nature, but I > would argue a more > Taoist read, that apparent anarchy is simply the impure > nature of worldly > things. And I would argue it is the impurity that makes > each character and > system more or less amenable to us as readers. > > On Wed, Jul 16, 2008 at 7:24 PM, Mark Kohut > wrote: > > > Thanks, Paul. > > > > I do think I know, worked with some people every day > for years, and they > > were fragments of people, just as are some in GR... > > > > And in Pynchon's world of doubled down meanings, > think of the upside of > > 'everything connects"....a wholeness beyond > fragmentation.... > > > > mark > > > > > > --- On Wed, 7/16/08, Paul Mackin > wrote: > > > > > From: Paul Mackin > > > Subject: Re: Repost: The Big One > > > To: pynchon-l at waste.org > > > Date: Wednesday, July 16, 2008, 1:22 PM > > > Mark Kohut wrote: > > > > A few obs. > > > > > > > > I have often thought that the non-rounded > characters > > > in much of Pynchon's work is because we real > human > > > beings aren't too "round" in our > current > > > degraded world,in Pynchon's worledview. > > > > > > > You may be on to something, Mark. > > > > > > I remember back about 40 years ago being told > that we were > > > ONE-dimensional men. > > > > > > In Pynchon's world, however, we are surely > more like > > > hyper-paranoid men. > > > > > > What kind of distinctive character trait would > required for > > > that? > > > > > > Guess I'm talking about GR--don't know > what the > > > hell happened after that. > > > > > > Perhaps characters in the True Land of Paranoia > don't > > > need much > > > character--we can pretty much forget shapes. > > > > > > Getting buffeted around by all those > interconnecting forces > > > (everything > > > connects) doesn't leave much room for > individual > > > discretion. > > > > > > I have long suspected that reading too much > Pynchon can > > > make people act > > > kind of peculiarly. > > > > > > For example, some of us adopt the phrase > "everything > > > connects" as sort > > > of a motto. > > > > > > That gives me pause. A little tiny pause anyway. > > > > > > What if the satirical origins get lost? > > > > > > It might be wise to take a lesson from the case > of the > > > cover of this > > > issue of The New Yorker. > > > > > > Some folks may not realize they aren't in > Kansas > > > anymore. (not too many > > > I hope) > > > > > > But getting back to "everything > connects," yes a > > > lot of things ARE > > > connected, and we should we conscious of this, > but there > > > are still a > > > lot of other things that are not. > > > > > > To believe that everything is connected can be > the mark of > > > a psychotic. > > > (a real one) > > > > > > A well-meaning sane person who thinks too > inclusively here > > > runs the > > > danger of not picking up on the connections that > really > > > exist. > > > > > > I duuno where this is going . . . . except I did > want to > > > let Mark know > > > I liked his idea. > > > > > > P. > > > > > > > > From against.the.dave at gmail.com Thu Jul 17 14:22:53 2008 From: against.the.dave at gmail.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2008 14:22:53 -0500 Subject: Watch The Watchmen Trailer On Friday In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: 16 July 2008 Watch The Watchmen Trailer On Friday See it first on Empire There's been a very long wait for a first look at footage from Zack Snyder's take on Watchmen, The Greatest Comic Book Of All Time™. That wait is very nearly over. The trailer for the movie, about a world where betighted crime fighting heroes have been outlawed, will be showing in US cinemas in front of The Dark Knight. But for those outside the US, or who haven't snapped up a ticket for Batman's first day, you can see the trailer exclusively online here at Empire on Friday morning from 5am GMT (or 9pm PST on Thursday). Trust us, it's worth getting up early for. http://www.empireonline.com/news/story.asp?NID=22942 Watchmen (2009) http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0409459/ http://watchmenmovie.warnerbros.com/ http://www.watchmencomicmovie.com/ Watchmen Trailer Details First reports of the trailer in front of Dark Knight include a look at Dr. Manhattan's origins and much more http://www.watchmencomicmovie.com/071508-watchmen-dark-knight-trailer.php From markekohut at yahoo.com Thu Jul 17 15:20:05 2008 From: markekohut at yahoo.com (Mark Kohut) Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2008 13:20:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Moral Nuances: Reading p. 985, AtD, in which Frank causes a train wreck Message-ID: <803005.4377.qm@web38403.mail.mud.yahoo.com> As threatened, accepting my own challenge to read this page of AtD showing what I can of OBA's 'moral vision'; his nuanced 'moral vision". "Is the baby smiling of is it just gas?"---GR first paragraph straight (although formatting lost). Then whole page in gmail document with my gloss indicated by asterisks * cued to page lines after the text. [Of course, I'll be disagreed with, Or, Why do other people exist? A: to engage in dialogue] p. 985 1-engine began to pick up speed. He swung down onto the step and was just about to jump when a peculiar thought occurred to him. Was this the "path" El Espinero had had in mind, this specific half mile of track, where suddenly the day had become extradimensional, the country shifted, was no longer the desert abstraction of a map but was speed, air rushing, the smell of 6-smoke and steam, time whose substance grew more condensed as each tick came faster and faster, all perfectly inseparable from Frank's certainty that jumping or not jumping was no longer the point, he belonged to what was happening, to the shriek from ahead as the engineer in the federal train leaned on his steam horn and Frank automatically responded with his own, 11-the two combining in a single great chord that gathered in the entire mo- ment, the brown-uniformed federales scattering from their train, the insane little engine shuddering in its frenzy, the governor valve* no longer able to regulate anything, and from someplace a bug came in out of the blind veloc- ity and went up Frank's right nostril and brought him back to the day. "Shit, " 16-he whispered, and let go, dropped, hit the ground, rolled with a desperate speed not his own, praying that he wouldn't break his leg again. --- On Thu, 7/17/08, mark.kohut at gmail.com wrote: > From: mark.kohut at gmail.com > Subject: Moral Nuances: Reading p. 985, AtD, in which Frank causes a train > To: markekohut at yahoo.com > Date: Thursday, July 17, 2008, 4:09 PM > I've shared a document with you called "Moral > Nuances: Reading p. 985, > AtD, in which Frank causes a train": > http://docs.google.com/Doc?id=ac6b6tpw9f8h_184c7qb58c9&invite=q79kn3 > > It's not an attachment -- it's stored online at > Google Docs. To open > this document, just click the link above. --- From markekohut at yahoo.com Thu Jul 17 15:37:01 2008 From: markekohut at yahoo.com (Mark Kohut) Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2008 13:37:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Enzian and Tchitcherine In-Reply-To: <830c13f40807171130s635430aaod31f5e9297a91b74@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <265534.58255.qm@web38405.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Half-self hatred? --- On Thu, 7/17/08, rich wrote: > From: rich > Subject: Enzian and Tchitcherine > To: "pynchon -l" > Date: Thursday, July 17, 2008, 2:30 PM > almost done with another re-read of GR. Can anyone > adequately > describe the reason Tchitcherine is obsessed with killing > his > half-brother Enzian? don't really understand his > personal motivation > here--is it just a Cain and Abel deal? > > rich From markekohut at yahoo.com Thu Jul 17 21:39:08 2008 From: markekohut at yahoo.com (Mark Kohut) Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2008 19:39:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Pynchon article in Cycnos. Source for CHUMS? In-Reply-To: <286830.26454.qm@web27606.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <456080.66746.qm@web38402.mail.mud.yahoo.com> So, because of this piece, thanks again Michel, I pick up a copy of The Real Life of Sebastian Knight and start it. Very early in, the narrator, a boy, talking about the sweets his brother got at bedtime---a Proust allusion, I would say---tells us he went back to turning the pages of CHUMS, "Look out for the next adventure of this rattling yarn". !!! --- On Wed, 7/16/08, Michel Ryckx wrote: > From: Michel Ryckx > Subject: Pynchon article in Cycnos > To: pynchon-l at waste.org > Date: Wednesday, July 16, 2008, 7:42 AM > Fairly recent article on Nabokov and Pynchon in French > journal Cycnos (University of Nice, Sofia Antipolis: > > Susan Elizabeth Sweeney; "The V-Shaped Paradigm: > Nabokov and Pynchon", Cycnos, 12.2 (put on line > 25.06.2008). > > http://revel.unice.fr/cycnos/document.html?id=1475 > > Michel. > > > > > > > > > > > > _____________________________________________________________________________ > > Envoyez avec Yahoo! Mail. Une boite mail plus intelligente > http://mail.yahoo.fr From scuffling at gmail.com Fri Jul 18 07:37:28 2008 From: scuffling at gmail.com (Henry) Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2008 08:37:28 -0400 Subject: Anarchy in the US References: <22973169.1216229923621.JavaMail.root@mswamui-blood.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <000801c8e8d3$0adae400$2090ac00$@com> http://www.katesharpleylibrary.net/ HENRY MU Information, Media, and Technology Consultant http://my.barackobama.com/page/community/blog/henrymu From markekohut at yahoo.com Fri Jul 18 08:25:34 2008 From: markekohut at yahoo.com (Mark Kohut) Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2008 06:25:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Enzian and Tchitcherine Message-ID: <553546.74024.qm@web38408.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Not just an offhand joke. If one of the deeper themes of GR is Why is there the self-hatred of humanity that leads to the self-destruction of War?; why is there War against our "brothers"?; Is there a Death Wish in History, in our collective psyches?.............. Then, maybe that's part of the meaning of Enzian and Tchitcherine? --- On Thu, 7/17/08, Mark Kohut wrote: > From: Mark Kohut > Subject: Re: Enzian and Tchitcherine > To: "rich" > Cc: "pynchon -l" > Date: Thursday, July 17, 2008, 4:37 PM > Half-self hatred? > > > --- On Thu, 7/17/08, rich > wrote: > > > From: rich > > Subject: Enzian and Tchitcherine > > To: "pynchon -l" > > Date: Thursday, July 17, 2008, 2:30 PM > > almost done with another re-read of GR. Can anyone > > adequately > > describe the reason Tchitcherine is obsessed with > killing > > his > > half-brother Enzian? don't really understand his > > personal motivation > > here--is it just a Cain and Abel deal? > > > > rich From against.the.dave at gmail.com Fri Jul 18 08:20:55 2008 From: against.the.dave at gmail.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2008 08:20:55 -0500 Subject: Watch The Watchmen Trailer On Friday In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Jul 17, 2008 at 2:22 PM, Dave Monroe wrote: > 16 July 2008 > Watch The Watchmen Trailer On Friday > See it first on Empire > > There's been a very long wait for a first look at footage from Zack > Snyder's take on Watchmen, The Greatest Comic Book Of All Time™. That > wait is very nearly over. > > The trailer for the movie, about a world where betighted crime > fighting heroes have been outlawed, will be showing in US cinemas in > front of The Dark Knight. But for those outside the US, or who haven't > snapped up a ticket for Batman's first day, you can see the trailer > exclusively online here at Empire on Friday morning from 5am GMT (or > 9pm PST on Thursday). Trust us, it's worth getting up early for. > > http://www.empireonline.com/news/story.asp?NID=22942 > > Watchmen (2009) > > http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0409459/ > http://watchmenmovie.warnerbros.com/ > http://www.watchmencomicmovie.com/ > > Watchmen Trailer Details > > First reports of the trailer in front of Dark Knight include a look at > Dr. Manhattan's origins and much more > > http://www.watchmencomicmovie.com/071508-watchmen-dark-knight-trailer.php http://watchmenmovie.warnerbros.com/ http://www.apple.com/trailers/wb/watchmen/ From fqmorris at gmail.com Fri Jul 18 08:34:32 2008 From: fqmorris at gmail.com (David Morris) Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2008 08:34:32 -0500 Subject: Enzian and Tchitcherine In-Reply-To: <830c13f40807171130s635430aaod31f5e9297a91b74@mail.gmail.com> References: <830c13f40807171130s635430aaod31f5e9297a91b74@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <7d461dc80807180634k23e8a77dvef83faea2f10f3f6@mail.gmail.com> He's trying to eliminate his "shadow," his black (br)other. On Thu, Jul 17, 2008 at 1:30 PM, rich wrote: > almost done with another re-read of GR. Can anyone adequately describe the reason Tchitcherine is obsessed with killing his half-brother Enzian? don't really understand his personal motivation here--is it just a Cain and Abel deal? > > rich > From paul.mackin at verizon.net Fri Jul 18 09:46:01 2008 From: paul.mackin at verizon.net (Paul Mackin) Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2008 10:46:01 -0400 Subject: Enzian and Tchitcherine In-Reply-To: <553546.74024.qm@web38408.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <553546.74024.qm@web38408.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4880ACA9.9020309@verizon.net> Mark Kohut wrote: >> From: Mark Kohut >> Not just an offhand joke. >> >> If one of the deeper themes of GR is Why is there the self-hatred of humanity that leads to the self-destruction of War?; why is there War against our "brothers"?; Is there a Death Wish in History, in our collective psyches?.............. >> >> Freud proposed an unconscious "death instinct" or "death drive" shortly after WW I in "Beyond the Pleasure Principle." Many people started calling it a "death wish" however. >> Then, maybe that's part of the meaning of Enzian and Tchitcherine? >> >> >> --- On Thu, 7/17/08, Mark Kohut wrote: >> >> >> Subject: Re: Enzian and Tchitcherine >> To: "rich" >> Cc: "pynchon -l" >> Date: Thursday, July 17, 2008, 4:37 PM >> Half-self hatred? >> >> >> --- On Thu, 7/17/08, rich >> wrote: >> >> >>> From: rich >>> Subject: Enzian and Tchitcherine >>> To: "pynchon -l" >>> Date: Thursday, July 17, 2008, 2:30 PM >>> almost done with another re-read of GR. Can anyone >>> adequately >>> describe the reason Tchitcherine is obsessed with >>> >> killing >> >>> his >>> half-brother Enzian? don't really understand his >>> personal motivation >>> here--is it just a Cain and Abel deal? >>> >>> rich >>> > > > > > > From scuffling at gmail.com Fri Jul 18 09:51:09 2008 From: scuffling at gmail.com (Henry) Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2008 10:51:09 -0400 Subject: Enzian, Tchitcherine, Bifurcation and... Entropy? In-Reply-To: <553546.74024.qm@web38408.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <553546.74024.qm@web38408.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <006001c8e8e5$b8021c40$280654c0$@com> Black/White, Cain/Able, Us/Them, bifurcation... sound familiar? After all, "It isn't a resistance, it's a war," and it's been there all along. Opposites may sometimes attract, but when matter meets antimatter... Combatants/Armies are not opposites of each another, but categorized as such, they are opposed, and must seek each other for annihilation. "That's entropy, man!" [Michael Flanders and Donald Swann's the "First and Second Law" of Thermodynamics (lyrics: http://www.nyanko.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/fas/anotherhat_first.html ), was written in the early 60's. Here is an mp3 of it from their excellent album "At The Drop of Another Hat," http://www.uky.edu/~holler/CHE107/media/first_second_law.mp3 .] HENRY MU Information, Media, and Technology Consultant http://my.barackobama.com/page/community/blog/henrymu From fqmorris at gmail.com Fri Jul 18 09:59:21 2008 From: fqmorris at gmail.com (David Morris) Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2008 09:59:21 -0500 Subject: Enzian and Tchitcherine In-Reply-To: <4880ACA9.9020309@verizon.net> References: <553546.74024.qm@web38408.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4880ACA9.9020309@verizon.net> Message-ID: <7d461dc80807180759q5b1e3f4cx6d9d51c3c666255b@mail.gmail.com> On Fri, Jul 18, 2008 at 9:46 AM, Paul Mackin > > Freud proposed an unconscious "death instinct" or "death drive" shortly after WW I in "Beyond the Pleasure Principle." Many people started calling it a "death wish" however. It's really a very simple concept, the desire to be free of tension, a reaction against the "reality principle." Sort of an ultimate temper tantrum. From richard.romeo at gmail.com Fri Jul 18 10:12:44 2008 From: richard.romeo at gmail.com (rich) Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2008 11:12:44 -0400 Subject: Anarchy in the US In-Reply-To: <000801c8e8d3$0adae400$2090ac00$@com> References: <22973169.1216229923621.JavaMail.root@mswamui-blood.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <000801c8e8d3$0adae400$2090ac00$@com> Message-ID: <830c13f40807180812r2b71e369we485797870207805@mail.gmail.com> a-and she kinda looks like scarlett johannsen--oboy oboy rich On Fri, Jul 18, 2008 at 8:37 AM, Henry wrote: > http://www.katesharpleylibrary.net/ > > HENRY MU > Information, Media, and Technology Consultant > > http://my.barackobama.com/page/community/blog/henrymu > > From richard.romeo at gmail.com Fri Jul 18 10:15:57 2008 From: richard.romeo at gmail.com (rich) Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2008 11:15:57 -0400 Subject: Moral Nuances: Reading p. 985, AtD, in which Frank causes a train wreck In-Reply-To: <803005.4377.qm@web38403.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <803005.4377.qm@web38403.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <830c13f40807180815p5e93d5bciadfc22715c403112@mail.gmail.com> i'll say again: Frank's scene with the bomb-laden train and the federales is a pretty close replica of the scene in the film Duck, You Sucker, early 1970s. rich On Thu, Jul 17, 2008 at 4:20 PM, Mark Kohut wrote: > As threatened, accepting my own challenge to read this page of AtD showing > what I can of OBA's 'moral vision'; his nuanced 'moral vision". > > "Is the baby smiling of is it just gas?"---GR > > first paragraph straight (although formatting lost). Then whole page in gmail document with my gloss indicated by asterisks * cued to page lines > after the text. > > [Of course, I'll be disagreed with, Or, Why do other people exist? > A: to engage in dialogue] > > > p. 985 > 1-engine began to pick up speed. He swung down onto the step and was just > > about to jump when a peculiar thought occurred to him. Was this the "path" > > El Espinero had had in mind, this specific half mile of track, where suddenly > > the day had become extradimensional, the country shifted, was no longer > > the desert abstraction of a map but was speed, air rushing, the smell of > > 6-smoke and steam, time whose substance grew more condensed as each tick > > came faster and faster, all perfectly inseparable from Frank's certainty that > > jumping or not jumping was no longer the point, he belonged to what was > > happening, to the shriek from ahead as the engineer in the federal train > > leaned on his steam horn and Frank automatically responded with his own, > > 11-the two combining in a single great chord that gathered in the entire mo- > > ment, the brown-uniformed federales scattering from their train, the insane > > little engine shuddering in its frenzy, the governor valve* no longer able to > > regulate anything, and from someplace a bug came in out of the blind veloc- > > ity and went up Frank's right nostril and brought him back to the day. "Shit, " > > 16-he whispered, and let go, dropped, hit the ground, rolled with a desperate > > speed not his own, praying that he wouldn't break his leg again. > > > > --- On Thu, 7/17/08, mark.kohut at gmail.com wrote: > >> From: mark.kohut at gmail.com >> Subject: Moral Nuances: Reading p. 985, AtD, in which Frank causes a train >> To: markekohut at yahoo.com >> Date: Thursday, July 17, 2008, 4:09 PM >> I've shared a document with you called "Moral >> Nuances: Reading p. 985, >> AtD, in which Frank causes a train": >> http://docs.google.com/Doc?id=ac6b6tpw9f8h_184c7qb58c9&invite=q79kn3 >> >> It's not an attachment -- it's stored online at >> Google Docs. To open >> this document, just click the link above. --- > > > > From richard.romeo at gmail.com Fri Jul 18 10:11:12 2008 From: richard.romeo at gmail.com (rich) Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2008 11:11:12 -0400 Subject: Enzian and Tchitcherine In-Reply-To: <7d461dc80807180634k23e8a77dvef83faea2f10f3f6@mail.gmail.com> References: <830c13f40807171130s635430aaod31f5e9297a91b74@mail.gmail.com> <7d461dc80807180634k23e8a77dvef83faea2f10f3f6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <830c13f40807180811g25b9aa8jdb69f5ccad9bd9bb@mail.gmail.com> Tchitcherine does mention while being interrogated that he objects to being passed over which connects to the Herero's concept of same during their extermination and Vaslav's own failure to move past the leading edges of revelation rich On Fri, Jul 18, 2008 at 9:34 AM, David Morris wrote: > He's trying to eliminate his "shadow," his black (br)other. > > On Thu, Jul 17, 2008 at 1:30 PM, rich wrote: >> almost done with another re-read of GR. Can anyone adequately describe the reason Tchitcherine is obsessed with killing his half-brother Enzian? don't really understand his personal motivation here--is it just a Cain and Abel deal? >> >> rich >> > From against.the.dave at gmail.com Fri Jul 18 10:39:01 2008 From: against.the.dave at gmail.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2008 10:39:01 -0500 Subject: Anarchy in the US In-Reply-To: <000801c8e8d3$0adae400$2090ac00$@com> References: <22973169.1216229923621.JavaMail.root@mswamui-blood.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <000801c8e8d3$0adae400$2090ac00$@com> Message-ID: On Fri, Jul 18, 2008 at 7:37 AM, Henry wrote: > http://www.katesharpleylibrary.net/ Anarchist group meets in Waldo woods By ERICA PEREZ eperez at journalsentinel.com Posted: July 17, 2008 Waldo - Some 150 anarchists from throughout the United States and Canada descended on a strip of private land this week in this Sheboygan County village for four days of workshops, including some focused on strategizing for demonstrations at the upcoming Democratic and Republican national conventions. The 2008 CrimethInc. Convergence was the sixth annual communal campout organized by CrimethInc. Ex-Workers' Collective, an international underground network that since the mid-1990s has published widely read anarchist texts such as "Recipes for Disaster: An Anarchist Cookbook." [...] JS ONLINE: NEWS: WISCONSIN: E-MAIL | PRINT THIS STORY Anarchist group meets in Waldo woods By ERICA PEREZ eperez at journalsentinel.com Posted: July 17, 2008 Waldo - Some 150 anarchists from throughout the United States and Canada descended on a strip of private land this week in this Sheboygan County village for four days of workshops, including some focused on strategizing for demonstrations at the upcoming Democratic and Republican national conventions. On the Web CrimethInc.: www.crimethinc.com Advertisement The 2008 CrimethInc. Convergence was the sixth annual communal campout organized by CrimethInc. Ex-Workers' Collective, an international underground network that since the mid-1990s has published widely read anarchist texts such as "Recipes for Disaster: An Anarchist Cookbook." The group also has drawn the attention of FBI agents trying to infiltrate the protest movement. At the 2004 CrimethInc. gathering in Iowa, an undercover FBI operative met Eric McDavid, a California man who was found guilty last year of conspiring to burn or blow up a federal facility. CrimethInc. texts eschew government, capitalism and conformity. The collective has no members and no leader. But the convergence had plenty of policy and procedure. Decisions are made by consensus, and there are no drugs, drinking, photography or exchange of money allowed. And definitely no police or corporate media. "The locals are welcome," media liaison and local circus performer Pinkerton Xyloma said. "We have a no-media policy because the media are not considered individuals. It is a concern that people from the media will not respect people's consent or consensus." Xyloma would not say why the group was gathered in Wisconsin or what participants were discussing. He said they had no interest in violence or terrorism. On its Web site, CrimethInc. describes itself as a place where "the secret worlds of shoplifters, rioters, dropouts, deserters, adulterers, vandals, daydreamers . . . converge to form gateways to new worlds where theft, cheating, warfare, boredom, and so on are simply obsolete." [...] http://www.jsonline.com/story/index.aspx?id=773869 From scuffling at gmail.com Fri Jul 18 10:39:19 2008 From: scuffling at gmail.com (Henry) Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2008 11:39:19 -0400 Subject: King of Skull Island References: <553546.74024.qm@web38408.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <007601c8e8ec$722b8600$56829200$@com> Those of you who have cable, don't have the DVD, and couldn't pass the test described in GR, King Kong(o) will be on Turner Classic Movies (practically the only channel that I watch) tomorrow, Saturday, 18 July. Bride of Kong, anyone? HENRY MU Information, Media, and Technology Consultant http://my.barackobama.com/page/community/blog/henrymu From markekohut at yahoo.com Fri Jul 18 10:41:10 2008 From: markekohut at yahoo.com (Mark Kohut) Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2008 08:41:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: "Duck, You Sucker" aka Message-ID: <197234.95042.qm@web38402.mail.mud.yahoo.com> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Fistful_of_Dynamite#Plot_summary Arguably, A Fistful of Dynamite contains more social commentary than any other Leone film. The film opens with a quote from Mao Zedong about the nature of revolutions and class struggle.[1] Throughout the course of the film Leone delves deep into the class differences that shaped Mexico during its bloody revolution. The main villain, Gunter Ruiz (Antoine Saint-John), is presented as a Nazi-like tank commander, complete with an armored car. Throughout the movie there are numerous scenes of execution of revolutionaries by Mexican Federales. These touches were intended by Leone - who grew up in Benito Mussolini's Italy during World War II - to represent a parallel with fascism. The movie was also, despite Leone's left-wing sympathies, meant as a sort of criticism of other left-wing "revolutionary" film makers such as Jean-Luc Godard and the recent spate of so-called "Zapata Westerns" which had predominated in the Spaghetti Western genre. For this, the film suffered a great many edits and cuts. To date, many versions of the film have been released, each one offering previously unseen material. I will go out of my way to seeit as soon as I can.Wish I already had. From scuffling at gmail.com Fri Jul 18 10:43:53 2008 From: scuffling at gmail.com (Henry) Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2008 11:43:53 -0400 Subject: King of Skull Island References: <553546.74024.qm@web38408.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <007d01c8e8ed$1adacfe0$50906fa0$@com> Uh, sorry about that (did ANYONE see the "Get Smart" movie?): KK is on at 4-6 PM Eastern Time. Dark Knight, anyone? HM -----Original Message----- From: Henry Those of you who have cable, don't have the DVD, and couldn't pass the test described in GR, King Kong(o) will be on Turner Classic Movies (practically the only channel that I watch) tomorrow, Saturday, 18 July. Bride of Kong, anyone? HENRY MU Information, Media, and Technology Consultant http://my.barackobama.com/page/community/blog/henrymu From scuffling at gmail.com Fri Jul 18 10:51:33 2008 From: scuffling at gmail.com (Henry) Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2008 11:51:33 -0400 Subject: Anarchy in the US In-Reply-To: References: <22973169.1216229923621.JavaMail.root@mswamui-blood.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <000801c8e8d3$0adae400$2090ac00$@com> Message-ID: <008101c8e8ee$2782e790$7688b6b0$@com> Oh boy, oh boy! How about we all go next year, or whenever the next one is? It'd be more Pynchonian than Burning Man.... HENRY MU Information, Media, and Technology Consultant http://my.barackobama.com/page/community/blog/henrymu -----Original Message----- From: Dave Monroe Anarchist group meets in Waldo woods By ERICA PEREZ eperez at journalsentinel.com Posted: July 17, 2008 Waldo - Some 150 anarchists from throughout the United States and Canada descended on a strip of private land this week in this Sheboygan County village for four days of workshops, including some focused on strategizing for demonstrations at the upcoming Democratic and Republican national conventions. On the Web CrimethInc.: www.crimethinc.com Advertisement The 2008 CrimethInc. Convergence was the sixth annual communal campout organized by CrimethInc. Ex-Workers' Collective, an international underground network that since the mid-1990s has published widely read anarchist texts such as "Recipes for Disaster: An Anarchist Cookbook." The group also has drawn the attention of FBI agents trying to infiltrate the protest movement. At the 2004 CrimethInc. gathering in Iowa, an undercover FBI operative met Eric McDavid, a California man who was found guilty last year of conspiring to burn or blow up a federal facility. CrimethInc. texts eschew government, capitalism and conformity. The collective has no members and no leader. But the convergence had plenty of policy and procedure. Decisions are made by consensus, and there are no drugs, drinking, photography or exchange of money allowed. And definitely no police or corporate media. "The locals are welcome," media liaison and local circus performer Pinkerton Xyloma said. "We have a no-media policy because the media are not considered individuals. It is a concern that people from the media will not respect people's consent or consensus." Xyloma would not say why the group was gathered in Wisconsin or what participants were discussing. He said they had no interest in violence or terrorism. On its Web site, CrimethInc. describes itself as a place where "the secret worlds of shoplifters, rioters, dropouts, deserters, adulterers, vandals, daydreamers . . . converge to form gateways to new worlds where theft, cheating, warfare, boredom, and so on are simply obsolete." [...] http://www.jsonline.com/story/index.aspx?id=773869 From scuffling at gmail.com Fri Jul 18 10:57:07 2008 From: scuffling at gmail.com (Henry) Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2008 11:57:07 -0400 Subject: "Duck, You Sucker" aka In-Reply-To: <197234.95042.qm@web38402.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <197234.95042.qm@web38402.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <008201c8e8ee$ee9a28c0$cbce7a40$@com> For more from Leone on the railroad and its civilizing effects, ya also gotta see the beautiful "Once Upon a Time in the West," one of my top 50 fave. HENRY MU Information, Media, and Technology Consultant http://www.urdomain.us/scuffling.htm -----Original Message----- From: owner-pynchon-l at waste.org [mailto:owner-pynchon-l at waste.org] On Behalf Of Mark Kohut http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Fistful_of_Dynamite#Plot_summary Arguably, A Fistful of Dynamite contains more social commentary than any other Leone film. The film opens with a quote from Mao Zedong about the nature of revolutions and class struggle.[1] Throughout the course of the film Leone delves deep into the class differences that shaped Mexico during its bloody revolution. The main villain, Gunter Ruiz (Antoine Saint-John), is presented as a Nazi-like tank commander, complete with an armored car. Throughout the movie there are numerous scenes of execution of revolutionaries by Mexican Federales. These touches were intended by Leone - who grew up in Benito Mussolini's Italy during World War II - to represent a parallel with fascism. The movie was also, despite Leone's left-wing sympathies, meant as a sort of criticism of other left-wing "revolutionary" film makers such as Jean-Luc Godard and the recent spate of so-called "Zapata Westerns" which had predominated in the Spaghetti Western genre. For this, the film suffered a great many edits and cuts. To date, many versions of the film have been released, each one offering previously unseen material. I will go out of my way to seeit as soon as I can.Wish I already had. From against.the.dave at gmail.com Fri Jul 18 10:59:43 2008 From: against.the.dave at gmail.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2008 10:59:43 -0500 Subject: OSU Knowledge Bank In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The Knowledge Bank at OSU: Ohio State University Press Publications The Knowledge Bank at The Ohio State University has a number of ongoing digitization and research projects, and this latest collection will be of interest to a broad range of scholars or anyone else with an interest in subjects such as American history, literary criticism, or communication arts. Currently, the site contains 295 titles published by The Ohio State University Press that are not available in a traditional paper edition. Visitors can search the collection by keyword, or they can also browse around by title, author, subject, or date of publication. The collection is nothing if not eclectic, as the offerings here include the 1999 work "Rewriting Chaucer: culture, authority, and the idea of the authentic text, 1400-1602" and 1952's "History of the Ohio State University: The story of its first seventy-five years, 1873-1948". https://kb.osu.edu/dspace/handle/1811/131 http://scout.wisc.edu/Reports/ScoutReport/ From against.the.dave at gmail.com Fri Jul 18 11:00:31 2008 From: against.the.dave at gmail.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2008 11:00:31 -0500 Subject: MIT TechTv Message-ID: MIT TechTv Some people out there might be thinking: "What will MIT think up next?" Well, they've probably thought up a number of things in the time it takes just to read this sentence, but one of their latest endeavors is MIT TechTv. It's a partnership between the MIT School of Engineering and MIT Libraries Academic Media Production services, and it basically allows various members of the MIT community (and others) to locate high-quality science and engineering related videos on the web. It's pretty easy to get started, as visitors can just click on the "View" button to watch some of the latest content. Recent highlights have included Brian Chan's origami demonstrations, debates on the gas tax, and physics demonstrations. Visitors should check back frequently, as new content is added quite regularly. http://techtv.mit.edu/ http://scout.wisc.edu/Reports/ScoutReport/ From ruudsaurins at aol.com Fri Jul 18 12:03:38 2008 From: ruudsaurins at aol.com (ruudsaurins at aol.com) Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2008 13:03:38 -0400 Subject: Railroads and Civilization Message-ID: <8CAB70F5B82FC19-3AC-1175@FWM-D25.sysops.aol.com> Hoy! Hoy! ???? .....and along with "Fistful of Dynamite" and "Once Upon a Time in the West", let us not forget The Firesign Theatre's homage to railroads and civilization, "Temporarily Humboldt County", a "track" off of "Waiting for the Electrician (or Someone Like Him)"......"how long ago'd we leave Goshen?"....."What the Father means is, what is the cross made of?"..... ??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? truly, ??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? ruud -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From markekohut at yahoo.com Fri Jul 18 12:37:58 2008 From: markekohut at yahoo.com (Mark Kohut) Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2008 10:37:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Watch The Watchmen Trailer On Friday In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <585395.92485.qm@web38407.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Watchmen, the book, has moved up to #9 on Amazon's bestseller list. Think there is any causal connection? (that's rhetorical,as they say) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 9. Watchmen by Alan Moore (Author), Dave Gibbons (Author) 438 Reviews 5 star: (362) 4 star: (48) 3 star: (15) 2 star: (6) 1 star: (7) See all 438 customer reviews... (438 customer reviews) | 4 customer discussions In Stock List Price: $19.99 Price: $13.59 --- On Fri, 7/18/08, Dave Monroe wrote: > From: Dave Monroe > Subject: Re: Watch The Watchmen Trailer On Friday > To: "pynchon -l" > Date: Friday, July 18, 2008, 9:20 AM > On Thu, Jul 17, 2008 at 2:22 PM, Dave Monroe > wrote: > > > 16 July 2008 > > Watch The Watchmen Trailer On Friday > > See it first on Empire > > > > There's been a very long wait for a first look at > footage from Zack > > Snyder's take on Watchmen, The Greatest Comic Book > Of All Time™. That > > wait is very nearly over. > > > > The trailer for the movie, about a world where > betighted crime > > fighting heroes have been outlawed, will be showing in > US cinemas in > > front of The Dark Knight. But for those outside the > US, or who haven't > > snapped up a ticket for Batman's first day, you > can see the trailer > > exclusively online here at Empire on Friday morning > from 5am GMT (or > > 9pm PST on Thursday). Trust us, it's worth getting > up early for. > > > > http://www.empireonline.com/news/story.asp?NID=22942 > > > > Watchmen (2009) > > > > http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0409459/ > > http://watchmenmovie.warnerbros.com/ > > http://www.watchmencomicmovie.com/ > > > > Watchmen Trailer Details > > > > First reports of the trailer in front of Dark Knight > include a look at > > Dr. Manhattan's origins and much more > > > > > http://www.watchmencomicmovie.com/071508-watchmen-dark-knight-trailer.php > > http://watchmenmovie.warnerbros.com/ > > http://www.apple.com/trailers/wb/watchmen/ From against.the.dave at gmail.com Fri Jul 18 13:04:50 2008 From: against.the.dave at gmail.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2008 13:04:50 -0500 Subject: The Angel of the Revolution Message-ID: George Griffith, The Angel of the Revolution: A Tale of the Coming Terror (1893) http://gutenberg.net.au/ebooks06/0602281h.html http://books.google.com/books?id=sADMMsLrVUcC http://www.archive.org/details/angelofrevolutio00grifiala http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Angel_of_the_Revolution July 18, 2008...8:08 am MORE CRAZED ANARCHIST AIRSHIP COMMANDERS………ANARCHY BY ZEPPELIN! Thanks Nik for pointing out Hartmann is available to read online. I've since discovered 'THE ANGEL OF THE REVOLUTION' by RICHARD CHETWYND GRIFFITH written about the same time and another excitig accountof revolutionaries bringing anarchy by airship terror! Thanks to PROJECT GUTENBERG you can also read this out of print text online. Unlike Fawcett Griffith was a genuine radical socialist/anarchist much influenced by William Moris and the book describes the socilist utopians bombing their way to anarchy! Like fawcett Grifith didnt just sit at home - he was off adventuring and discovered the source of the Amazon 20 years before Fawcett's brother got lost up it. There's a whole genre of crazed airship commanders - and submarines in the case of Verne's embittered eco-warror Captain Nemo -with anarcho-terrorist sensibilities. I've even discovered an article entitled ' CLASS TREACHERY IN AIRSHIPCOMMANDERS IN LATE VICTORIAN FICTION'……..straight up! What a fucking find comrades! A Traitor to His Class: The Anarchist in British Fiction. by Haia Shpayer-Makov A plethora of novels published in late Victorian and Edwardian Britain contain anarchist characters. In the great majority of these works the anarchist is featured as a villain of a particularly pernicious kind. He is a master criminal, almost always part of a large-scale anarchist conspiracy whose aim is to destroy civilized society The latest KATE SHARP LIBRARY REVIEW contains a review by JOHN BARKER of THOMAS PYNCHON'S 'AGAINST THE DAY' - combining airships and anarchy! Back to the future comrades http://ianbone.wordpress.com/2008/07/18/more-crazed-anarchist-airship-commandersanarchy-by-zeppelin/ From against.the.dave at gmail.com Fri Jul 18 13:10:51 2008 From: against.the.dave at gmail.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2008 13:10:51 -0500 Subject: Against the Day by Thomas Pynchon, reviewed by John Barker Message-ID: Kate Sharpley Library KSL: Bulletin of the Kate Sharpley Library #54 out now. Review special Contents: Beer And Revolution Beer And Revolution: The German Anarchist Movement in New York City, 1880-1914 by Tom Goyens, reviewed by Ian Bone City Of Quartz by Mike Davis, reviewed by Paul Stott Bash the Rich: True-life confessions of an Anarchist in the UK by Ian Bone, reviewed by Benjamin Franks Review of My Revolutions by Hari Kunzru and Johnny Come Home by Jake Arnott New pamphlets: Rebellious Spirit: Maria Occhipinti and the Ragusa Anti-Draft Revolt of 1945 and Salvador Puig Antich and the MIL (Movimiento Ibérico de Liberación) Anarchists in the Gulag (call for translators) Against the Day by Thomas Pynchon, reviewed by John Barker The Making of the English Working Class by E.P. Thompson and Live Working or Die Fighting: How the Working Class Went Global by Paul Mason, reviewed by John Patten Review of The Poetics of Anarchy: David Edelshtat's Revolutionary Poetry by Ori Kritz Individual subscriptions: UK: £3, Europe/RoW: £6/10euro Kate Sharpley Library, BM Hurricane, London, WC1N 3XX Individual subscriptions: USA: $5 Americas/RoW $10 Kate Sharpley Library, PMB 820, 2425 Channing Way, Berkeley CA 94704, USA Will also be available at www.katesharpleylibrary.net (soonish) http://labourhistory.net/news/i0807_4.php Bulletin of the Kate Sharpley Library Issue Archive http://www.katesharpleylibrary.net/bulletin/kslbarch.htm The latest KATE SHARP LIBRARY REVIEW contains a review by JOHN BARKER of THOMAS PYNCHON'S 'AGAINST THE DAY' - combining airships and anarchy! Back to the future comrades http://ianbone.wordpress.com/2008/07/18/more-crazed-anarchist-airship-commandersanarchy-by-zeppelin/ Not quite "soonish" enough, alas ... From against.the.dave at gmail.com Fri Jul 18 13:22:31 2008 From: against.the.dave at gmail.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2008 13:22:31 -0500 Subject: AtDDtA1: The Princess Casamassima Message-ID: "'I say, Pugnax--what's that you're reading now, old fellow?' "'Rr-Rff-rff Rr-rr-rff-rrf-rrf,' replied Pugnax without looking up, which Darby, having like others in the crew got used to Pugnax's voice [...] interpreted as, 'The Princess Casamassima.' "'Ah. Some sort of ... Italian romance, I'll bet?' "'Its subject,' he was promptly informed by the ever-alert Lindsay Noseworth, who had overheard the exchange, 'is the inexorably rising tide of World Anarchism ....'" (AtD, Pt. i, pp. 5-6) http://waste.org/mail/?list=pynchon-l&month=0701&msg=114339 "... the Tristero underground, the hidden empire of disinheritance Oedipa stumbles upon (or so it seems) is highly reminiscent of the London anarchist underground James described in his novel about the disinherited, The Princess Casamassima; and Pynchon's technique for presenting it follows, in broad outline, James's rule: 'My scheme called for the suggested nearness (to all our apparently ordered life) of some sinister anarchic underworld, heaving in its pain, it power and its hate: a presentation, not of sharp particulars, but of loose appearances, vague motions and sounds and symptoms, just perceptible presences and general looming possibilities' ['Preface' to The Princess Casamassima, in The Art of the Novel, p. 76]. As Oedipa steps across the tracks and into a territory lying both beyond and beneath the official grid, the 'effects' produced on her as well as on the reader are just those James claimed he was working for, 'precisely those of our not knowing, of society's not knowing, but only guessing and suespecting and trying to ignore what "goes on" irreconcilably, subversively, beneath the vast smug surface' [ibid., p. 77]." --Pierre-Yves Petillon, "A Re-cognition of Her Errand into the Wilderness," New Essays on The Crying of Lot 49 (ed. Patrick O'Donnell). pp. 139-40 http://waste.org/mail/?list=pynchon-l&month=0108&msg=59073 A review of the Henry James novel The Princess Casamassima The Princess Casamassima, Henry James, Penguin. James peoples his novel with figures from the London anarchist scene of his day. He makes the indefatigable Johann Most serve as the basis for three characters: a bookbinder, a chemist, and a German international revolutionist, all of which Most was. Kropotkin, still tired from his journey, perhaps, will do for only one, but James compensates by giving him a sex change and making him the expatriate noblewoman of the book's title, who abandons a life of luxury to side with the oppressed. In his preface, James claims to have gathered the information with which to set the scene by sheer dogged observation: "pulling no wires, knocking at no closed doors, applying for no 'authentic' information"; instead, it was his practice to "haunt the great city and by this habit to penetrate it, imaginatively, in as many places as possible". When it comes down to it, James's "imaginative penetration" consists of projecting his personal hang-ups and his class prejudices onto the working class in general and the revolutionary socialist movement in particular. The central figure, the bookbinder, has a grudge against the nobility, while at the same time he hankers for their "cultivated" life: a clear metaphor for James's own persistent bourgeois-colonial hobnobbing. The actual absence of any true independence of mind and total incapacity for any enlightened social thinking that are the rule among both the state/industrial baronry and the academic mandarins who are their cerebral proxies — this chronic intellectual debility, which is concealed by their impressive titles, appearances, and generally exalted positions, James projects upon the would-be revolutionaries, who are all muddle and dither. The murderous selfishness of the privileged and mighty, so elegantly promoted in that day in the apparel of the academically approved doctrine of social darwinism, finds its reflection in James's novel in the portrayal of social revolution as culminating in a massive slaughter of the rich and the share-out of their property. This despite the fact that anarchist communism, i.e. collective ownership, self-management and free exchange, was well established as a revolutionary doctrine before 1886. The instrument of the revolution, at least in its early stages, is to be an international terrorist conspiracy that binds its members by oath before giving them its orders. For of course, since the violence of the ruling class really is originated in hidden hierarchical conspiracies (for the sake of "national security"), and carried out by mere myrmidons, whose slave status is sealed by swearing them in, so must revolutionary violence be ordered by shadowy command structures that enforce blind obedience by the administration of oaths so terrible that they cannot be reported. James cannot see the inhumanity, idleness, and cowardice of the rich, because of their veneer of "culture". These vices, however, are all too obvious to him in the poor: insurmountable obstacles to the creation of a just social order. Yet the evidence of tenderness, the skill, the courage of the dispossessed was all around him. It was into the bosoms of working women that the rich thrust their children for nursing, it was into the hands of the working men that they put their very lives when they went travelling, it was the sons of working men and women in the army and navy that kept them safe from their enemies and defended or extended their dominions for them. The idea that it is the sheer usefulness of the poor that makes the rich determined to keep them poor was evidently beyond Henry James. To describe and comment upon the actual plot of the novel would be to dignify it quite unjustifiably. In their blurb, the publishers describe the book as portraying "the crucial era of England before socialism". Of course, what they mean is authoritarian socialism, with its bourgeois, parliamentary, statist and militarist tactics. It would have been fascinating to read an account of life before this disease had infected the labour movement. Unfortunately, all we get is an account of the author's prejudices. Since these correspond to the ideology of the ruling class today, just as much as yesterday, they are of little interest. Recently, James's old house in Sussex was acquired by the Rolls-Royce car firm, to be used for their directors' frolics. Words or wheels, the social reality expressed is the same. MH >From Cienfuegos Press Anarchist Review #5 (1980) http://www.katesharpleylibrary.net/james.htm Thanks again, Henry ... From against.the.dave at gmail.com Fri Jul 18 13:35:00 2008 From: against.the.dave at gmail.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2008 13:35:00 -0500 Subject: AtDDtA1: The Princess Casamassima In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Jul 18, 2008 at 1:22 PM, Dave Monroe wrote: > http://waste.org/mail/?list=pynchon-l&month=0701&msg=114339 > > http://waste.org/mail/?list=pynchon-l&month=0108&msg=59073 > > A review of the Henry James novel > The Princess Casamassima > > http://www.katesharpleylibrary.net/james.htm >From Henry James, "Preface," The Princess Casamassima (NY: Penguin, 1987 [1886]), pp. 33-48 ... "It seems probable that if we were never bewildered there would never be a story to tell about us .... Therefore it is that the wary reader for the most part warns the novelist against making his character too interpretive of the muddle of fate, or in other words too divinely, too priggishly clever. 'Give us plenty of bewlidement,' this monitor seems to say, 'so long a there is plenty of slashing out in the bewliderment too. But don't, we beseech you, give us too much intelligence; for intelligence--well, endangers .... It opens up too many considerations, possibilities, issues ...." (p. 37) "The whole thing thus comes to depend on the quality of bewilderment characteristic of one's creature, the quality involved in the given case or supplied by one's data...." (p. 39) http://waste.org/mail/?list=pynchon-l&month=0108&msg=59073 From fqmorris at gmail.com Fri Jul 18 16:57:33 2008 From: fqmorris at gmail.com (David Morris) Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2008 16:57:33 -0500 Subject: Moon Transits Earth Message-ID: <7d461dc80807181457y6ddb00afo8233951cee29b023@mail.gmail.com> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MEcqWuYqrSo&eurl=http://www.neatorama.com/ From ottosell at googlemail.com Sat Jul 19 09:07:20 2008 From: ottosell at googlemail.com (Otto) Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2008 16:07:20 +0200 Subject: Gegen den Tag Message-ID: Eine grandiose Zumutung Im Roman «Gegen den Tag» unternimmt Thomas Pynchon eine Vermessung der Moderne an ihren Ursprüngen http://www.espace.ch/artikel_546692.html From markekohut at yahoo.com Sat Jul 19 09:07:46 2008 From: markekohut at yahoo.com (Mark Kohut) Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2008 07:07:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Prolegomena to Hosting AtD p. 1040ff Message-ID: <514026.52641.qm@web38405.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Foax, Well, My Spam Guard filtered out most of Becky's postings for the previous section, which I am catching up with.(The upcoming section is a different plot thread anyway) But, she signed over to me and I'm ready. I will do a lot of short postings, rather than longer ones. But I have surely overprepared, so there will be a lot of them. I might suggest visiting often, if you can and are interested enough. I will not be posting much from the P-wiki. Because I am taking much on it for common knowledge and trying to be more speculative, to fail more often but to strike deeper once in a while. "The road of excess leads to the Palace of Wisdom", wrote William Blake and we know Pynchon practices that. (So, we ants of reading him will swarm with excess--at least i will) Please comment and talk back. From robinlandseadel at comcast.net Sat Jul 19 09:37:17 2008 From: robinlandseadel at comcast.net (robinlandseadel at comcast.net) Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2008 14:37:17 +0000 Subject: Prolegomena to Hosting AtD p. 1040ff Message-ID: <071920081437.14118.4881FC1D000A4262000037262214756402040A0B0E0A9C0B020E0402070D019D@comcast.net> I'll slog along as best I can, my postings for the Novel's coda are stacking up in a little virtual folder and Mark usually is at the very least congenial as regards my mewlings. You're all on to my to my idee fixe by now, feel free to cast whatever bread upon the waters, plenty of stuff flyin' 'round ready to get picked up by sumthin'. . . . If my re-posting of bits and pieces of CoL 49 vis the cover of AtD seems redundant, consider this: as much of The Crying of Lot 49 has to do with concealment, the night, dark plots and revelation deferred, Against the Day concerns itself with revelation, light, illumination and the possibility of Grace. From markekohut at yahoo.com Sat Jul 19 10:00:16 2008 From: markekohut at yahoo.com (Mark Kohut) Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2008 08:00:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: AtD (37) pp.1040 ff. Thoughts on Lew Basnight, detective. Message-ID: <334582.28441.qm@web38406.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Against the Day, p. 1040ff Why is he in AtD? He threads through from the beginning in Chicago. I suggest he is the major anchor of reality/search for truth in AtD. As in any novel, we have to get the author's perspective on the various characters, their actions and utterances. In a satiric work, as is (most of) TRPs, and in AtD, where so much is "mediated' reality, often not Reality, the author needs to ground us through his satiric vision (I offer much o the maths stuff as the best example of difficulty in 'getting' how TRP means much of it). The Detective: Overview The detective in fiction (largely) started in the 19th Century a bit before the time when ATD begins. E. A. Poe is often credited with its origins, as well as a Frenchman I'm too lazy to look up. Sherlock Holmes is, maybe, the first touchstone of achievement in detective fiction. He figures everything out amidst all the confusions of life. When the writer is TRP exploring, among so much else, the meaning of History, 20th Century America, modernity, is he[TRP} like the detective figure? From a recent Guardian blog---which is similarly expressed elsewhere: "The detective is a metaphor for the writer: the isolated figure trying to comprehend a disordered world, constructing a narrative that makes sense, and trying to persuade others to believe in his or her account." We know TRP has used the detective-like form before---V. and especially C of Lot 49, usually to frustrate any solving of "the mystery"... Is it the same in AtD, or in this work are we given some/more answers? From ottosell at googlemail.com Sat Jul 19 11:16:49 2008 From: ottosell at googlemail.com (Otto) Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2008 18:16:49 +0200 Subject: np radioplay "Berlin Alexanderplatz" Message-ID: historical recording from 1930: - - - - 09.08.2008 · 20:05 Uhr Die Geschichte vom Franz Biberkopf Zum 130. Geburtstag des Autors Von Alfred Döblin Alfred Döblins berühmtester Roman von ihm selbst zum Hörspiel adaptiert: Biberkopf möchte groß sein und scheitert an den kleinen Verhältnissen, möchte ein anständiges Leben führen und landet im Gefängnis. Die für den 30. September 1930 geplante Sendung - 14 Tage nach der Reichstagswahl, bei der die NSDAP die Zahl ihrer Mandate fast verzehnfachen konnte - wurde vier Stunden vor dem Sendetermin abgesagt. Die von Döblin mit Alfred Braun erarbeiteten "Versuchsaufnahmen" verschwanden im Archiv und wurden erst rund 20 Jahre später urgesendet. Regie: Max Bing Komposition: Walter Goehr Darsteller: Heinrich George, Hilde Körber, Oskar Ebelsbacher u.a. Produktion: Reichsrundfunkgesellschaft 1930 Länge: 77'13" http://www.dradio.de/dlf/programmtipp/hoerspiel/792142/ From bekker2 at mac.com Sat Jul 19 12:25:50 2008 From: bekker2 at mac.com (Bekah) Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2008 10:25:50 -0700 Subject: meta-something In-Reply-To: <007801c8e76d$7a164330$6e42c990$@com> References: <22973169.1216229923621.JavaMail.root@mswamui-blood.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <007801c8e76d$7a164330$6e42c990$@com> Message-ID: <889AD64D-1D1E-4746-99BB-F132732D7CAC@mac.com> On Jul 16, 2008, at 10:57 AM, Henry wrote: > I turn to fiction because of the hubris of non-fiction's posing as > fact when, in fact, fact is in the arty-facts. Oh hello from days ago but this just won't get out of mind. I think I understand what you're saying and yes, the idea of meta-history seems always just under the surface in AtD. Pynchon may be very subtly stirring a wee bit of iron-y flavored meta-history into the mix , what with some ever so slightly skewed chronology and a smattering of curious omissions. However, and I think this is most evident in the Luddlow part, there are some "events" which are, even later, beyond metaphor. The memory has emotional impact. We are stirred when we first learn of it and say stuff like "where was that in the history books?" It was hidden between Manifest Destiny and WWI -in the part about "Give me your tired, your poor, your ignorant." No, Ludlow deserves the very clearest and most direct language we can offer because words become all we have. To do less would be to sweep the barbaric hubris of capitalist greed into some kind of dust- bin of "history is bunk." Yes, history from the top has its poses as does history from the bottom - nevertheless, we ought not throw the baby out with the bath water. Remember Catalonia and all that - as best we can. One thing I've noticed is that Pychon generally respects the limits of metaphor so as not to dishonor the atrocities. He tends to steer a bit clear of dealing with historical genocides (Indian, Jewish, Armenian and so on). That said, from the workers' pov he hit the Ludlow Massacre head on - metaphor or not (and was actually much pretty dry in that department) - because sometimes words are all we have. I wonder about the consistency of my position here but although I kinda, sorta, understand the ideas of Hayden White - there is, nevertheless, a time and place for the clearest language we have (metaphor or not, because it will speak for itself) so as not to forget the magnitude of human inhumanity. Bekah From against.the.dave at gmail.com Sat Jul 19 13:17:37 2008 From: against.the.dave at gmail.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2008 13:17:37 -0500 Subject: Against the Day by Thomas Pynchon, reviewed by John Barker In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Jul 18, 2008 at 1:10 PM, Dave Monroe wrote: > Kate Sharpley Library > > KSL: Bulletin of the Kate Sharpley Library #54 out now. Review special > Contents: [...] > Against the Day by Thomas Pynchon, reviewed by John Barker [...] > Individual subscriptions: UK: £3, Europe/RoW: £6/10euro > Kate Sharpley Library, BM Hurricane, London, WC1N 3XX > Individual subscriptions: USA: $5 Americas/RoW $10 > Kate Sharpley Library, PMB 820, 2425 Channing Way, Berkeley CA 94704, USA > > Will also be available at www.katesharpleylibrary.net (soonish) > > http://labourhistory.net/news/i0807_4.php > > Bulletin of the Kate Sharpley Library > Issue Archive > > http://www.katesharpleylibrary.net/bulletin/kslbarch.htm > > The latest KATE SHARP LIBRARY REVIEW contains a review by JOHN BARKER > of THOMAS PYNCHON'S 'AGAINST THE DAY' - combining airships and > anarchy! Back to the future comrades > > http://ianbone.wordpress.com/2008/07/18/more-crazed-anarchist-airship-commandersanarchy-by-zeppelin/ Readers Please Note: due to an error in numbering of the original print run of the bulletin, issues No. 7 and 8 do not actually exist. http://www.katesharpleylibrary.net/bulletin/kslbarch.htm From igrlivingston at gmail.com Sat Jul 19 14:09:45 2008 From: igrlivingston at gmail.com (Ian Livingston) Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2008 12:09:45 -0700 Subject: AtD (37) pp.1040 ff. Thoughts on Lew Basnight, detective. In-Reply-To: <334582.28441.qm@web38406.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <334582.28441.qm@web38406.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <95cde1ee0807191209l31d62eaaj5b0f7d4e66b4b938@mail.gmail.com> I have to do a couple of things here I've got used to disliking. First I have to backpedal a little on the discussion of flat and round characters. It occurred to me that it just may be that my identification of the relative roundness of Pynchon's characters is largely projection. I see them as quite round because I identify them as aspects of the psyche, therefore they are familiar to me as neighbors, friends, lovers and enemies. I know them all intimately and therefore see them as round even though that may not hold up under textual scrutiny. That said, I have to repeat myself concerning the significance of alchemy in TRP's entire opus. Now half through Jung's *Mysterium Coniunctionis*, and having burned through *Alchemy and Psychology*, as well as a pair of works on alchemy by Mircea Eliade it is clear to me that our boy not only read but internalized much of Jung's work on alchemy. I see alchemy anchored in *V.* and running as a strong current throughout Pynchon's works. That current is a swollen delta merging into the sea in AtD. It is unmistakable and inescapable. In fact I think the book is nearly impossible to understand without a working apprehension of Jung's work. With a little knowledge it goes from impossible to difficult. I can't guess what a rich understanding of alchemy might bear on the work. This reflects on the character of Lew Basnight in just what you suggest here, Mark, though perhaps slightly mediated. If AtD is, as I suspect, a big, fat consciousness, an observing perspective engaged in the mystery of being, then it must have a dominant monad, a central, unifying self identity, aka, ego. I think Web Traverse may be that ego and Lew Basnight is his minister. Consider the nature of Basnight's employment: a spiritual detective in search of the mysterious bomber. What does the self do in reality? It blasts reality into digestible pieces and lovingly devours those pieces. Sorry I can't recollect who it was among you suggested that the Traverse siblings were elements of Web. I do heartily agree. In the section "The Personification of the Opposites" in the *Mysterium*, Jung suggests that draco might be identified with Osiris who is cut up and strewn around the world for Isis to gather together, reconstruct and revivify. He is the god of the ebb and flow of the Nile, thus he is associated with the sea, which is chaos. Does anyone else sense an association between chaos and anarchy, or am I alone in this? One is a condition, the other a conviction, but both reflect similar virtues. The role of chaos is fundamental in alchemy. It is the dark night in which salvation gestates. The sea is the primordial chaos. Think of Kit's crossing. Then, what does Lew eventually accomplish? I'll remain silent on that until the time is right, but for those who have read ahead, Lew's significance seems great. I know this is an incomplete offering, but I have to go work for a while. Someone is waiting on me. Perhaps I can carve out some more time later. On Sat, Jul 19, 2008 at 8:00 AM, Mark Kohut wrote: > Against the Day, p. 1040ff > > Why is he in AtD? He threads through from the beginning in Chicago. I > suggest he is the major anchor of reality/search for truth in AtD. > > As in any novel, we have to get the author's perspective on the various > characters, their actions and utterances. In a satiric work, as is (most of) > TRPs, and in AtD, where so much is "mediated' reality, often not Reality, > the author needs to ground us through his satiric vision (I offer much o the > maths stuff as the best example of difficulty in 'getting' how TRP means > much of it). > > The Detective: Overview > > The detective in fiction (largely) started in the 19th Century a bit before > the time when ATD begins. E. A. Poe is often credited with its origins, as > well as a Frenchman I'm too lazy to look up. Sherlock Holmes is, maybe, the > first touchstone of achievement in detective fiction. He figures everything > out amidst all the confusions of life. > > When the writer is TRP exploring, among so much else, the meaning of > History, 20th Century America, modernity, is he[TRP} like the detective > figure? From a recent Guardian blog---which is similarly expressed > elsewhere: > > "The detective is a metaphor for the writer: the isolated figure trying to > comprehend a disordered world, constructing a narrative that makes sense, > and trying to persuade others to believe in his or her account." > > We know TRP has used the detective-like form before---V. and especially C > of Lot 49, usually to frustrate any solving of "the mystery"... > > Is it the same in AtD, or in this work are we given some/more answers? > > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From against.the.dave at gmail.com Sat Jul 19 14:59:02 2008 From: against.the.dave at gmail.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2008 14:59:02 -0500 Subject: AtD (37) pp.1040 ff. Thoughts on Lew Basnight, detective. In-Reply-To: <334582.28441.qm@web38406.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <334582.28441.qm@web38406.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Jul 19, 2008 at 10:00 AM, Mark Kohut wrote: > "The detective is a metaphor for the writer: the isolated figure trying to comprehend a disordered world, constructing a narrative that makes sense, and trying to persuade others to believe in his or her account." "It seems probable that if we were never bewildered there would never be a story to tell about us .... Therefore it is that the wary reader for the most part warns the novelist against making his character too interpretive of the muddle of fate, or in other words too divinely, too priggishly clever. 'Give us plenty of bewlidement,' this monitor seems to say, 'so long a there is plenty of slashing out in the bewliderment too. But don't, we beseech you, give us too much intelligence; for intelligence--well, endangers .... It opens up too many considerations, possibilities, issues ...." --Henry James, "Preface," The Princess Casamassima (1886) http://waste.org/mail/?list=pynchon-l&month=0701&msg=114339 I'd venture that the history of "Western thought," literature, what have you, is a series of detective stories, attempt to reveal truths occluded by appearances (e.g., Plato's Parable of the Cave). Then's there's Poe's "Purloined Letter," hidden in plain sight ... http://waste.org/mail/?list=pynchon-l&month=0701&msg=114275 Not to mention Robbe-Grillet's Erasers ... http://www.groveatlantic.com/grove/bin/wc.dll?groveproc~genauth~625~1158~DESC Then ... From markekohut at yahoo.com Sat Jul 19 15:53:16 2008 From: markekohut at yahoo.com (Mark Kohut) Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2008 13:53:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: AtD (37) pp.1040 ff. Thoughts on Lew Basnight, detective. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <400874.42265.qm@web38408.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Lew Basnight in AtD is most like Slothrop in GR? --- On Sat, 7/19/08, Dave Monroe wrote: > From: Dave Monroe > Subject: Re: AtD (37) pp.1040 ff. Thoughts on Lew Basnight, detective. > To: markekohut at yahoo.com > Cc: "pynchon -l" > Date: Saturday, July 19, 2008, 3:59 PM > On Sat, Jul 19, 2008 at 10:00 AM, Mark Kohut > wrote: > > > "The detective is a metaphor for the writer: the > isolated figure trying to comprehend a disordered world, > constructing a narrative that makes sense, and trying to > persuade others to believe in his or her account." > > "It seems probable that if we were never bewildered > there would never > be a story to tell about us .... Therefore it is that the > wary reader > for the most part warns the novelist against making his > character too > interpretive of the muddle of fate, or in other words too > divinely, > too priggishly clever. 'Give us plenty of > bewlidement,' this monitor > seems to say, 'so long a there is plenty of slashing > out in the > bewliderment too. But don't, we beseech you, give us > too much > intelligence; for intelligence--well, endangers .... It > opens up too > many considerations, possibilities, issues ...." > > --Henry James, "Preface," The Princess > Casamassima (1886) > > http://waste.org/mail/?list=pynchon-l&month=0701&msg=114339 > > I'd venture that the history of "Western > thought," literature, what > have you, is a series of detective stories, attempt to > reveal truths > occluded by appearances (e.g., Plato's Parable of the > Cave). Then's > there's Poe's "Purloined Letter," hidden > in plain sight ... > > http://waste.org/mail/?list=pynchon-l&month=0701&msg=114275 > > Not to mention Robbe-Grillet's Erasers ... > > http://www.groveatlantic.com/grove/bin/wc.dll?groveproc~genauth~625~1158~DESC > > Then ... From markekohut at yahoo.com Sat Jul 19 19:05:47 2008 From: markekohut at yahoo.com (Mark Kohut) Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2008 17:05:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: AtD (37) 1040 ff. More on Lew Basnight Message-ID: <771842.66899.qm@web38408.mail.mud.yahoo.com> a DISCUSSION page on the wiki: "Bas" in French means "low" and is related to the English "base" and "bass." Both the French and the English words signal not simply "low down," but also "deep"; we see this especially in music, with voices or instruments that are bass." I think that Lew may be, as mentioned above regarding the reality principle, so to speak, a kind of baseline in the novel. He explores some of the darkest [night] themes in AtD? Lew is central to, at least, two MAJOR thematic meanings in 'Against the Day'...he survives a dynamite blast.....A-and, he gives us the AtD meaning of grace. He is key to 'getting AtD', I say. He is some kind of authorial certainty (re what?. From markekohut at yahoo.com Sat Jul 19 19:09:22 2008 From: markekohut at yahoo.com (Mark Kohut) Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2008 17:09:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: AtD (37) pp.1040 ff. Thoughts on Lew Basnight, detective. In-Reply-To: <95cde1ee0807191209l31d62eaaj5b0f7d4e66b4b938@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <436554.32695.qm@web38403.mail.mud.yahoo.com> You must be right on Jung....in ways we have yet to explore...... And, if ATD is a big fat consciousness, maybe it is the author's consciousness or the one who writes the Chums' books? --- On Sat, 7/19/08, Ian Livingston wrote: > From: Ian Livingston > Subject: Re: AtD (37) pp.1040 ff. Thoughts on Lew Basnight, detective. > To: markekohut at yahoo.com, "pynchon -l" > Date: Saturday, July 19, 2008, 3:09 PM > I have to do a couple of things here I've got used to > disliking. First I > have to backpedal a little on the discussion of flat and > round characters. > It occurred to me that it just may be that my > identification of the > relative roundness of Pynchon's characters is largely > projection. I see > them as quite round because I identify them as aspects of > the psyche, > therefore they are familiar to me as neighbors, friends, > lovers and > enemies. I know them all intimately and therefore see them > as round even > though that may not hold up under textual scrutiny. That > said, I have to > repeat myself concerning the significance of alchemy in > TRP's entire opus. > Now half through Jung's *Mysterium Coniunctionis*, and > having burned through > *Alchemy and Psychology*, as well as a pair of works on > alchemy by Mircea > Eliade it is clear to me that our boy not only read but > internalized much of > Jung's work on alchemy. I see alchemy anchored in *V.* > and running as a > strong current throughout Pynchon's works. > > That current is a swollen delta merging into the sea in > AtD. It is > unmistakable and inescapable. In fact I think the book is > nearly impossible > to understand without a working apprehension of Jung's > work. With a little > knowledge it goes from impossible to difficult. I > can't guess what a rich > understanding of alchemy might bear on the work. This > reflects on the > character of Lew Basnight in just what you suggest here, > Mark, though > perhaps slightly mediated. If AtD is, as I suspect, a big, > fat > consciousness, an observing perspective engaged in the > mystery of being, > then it must have a dominant monad, a central, unifying > self identity, aka, > ego. I think Web Traverse may be that ego and Lew Basnight > is his > minister. Consider the nature of Basnight's > employment: a spiritual > detective in search of the mysterious bomber. What does > the self do in > reality? It blasts reality into digestible pieces and > lovingly devours > those pieces. Sorry I can't recollect who it was among > you suggested that > the Traverse siblings were elements of Web. I do heartily > agree. In the > section "The Personification of the Opposites" in > the *Mysterium*, Jung > suggests that draco might be identified with Osiris who is > cut up and strewn > around the world for Isis to gather together, reconstruct > and revivify. He > is the god of the ebb and flow of the Nile, thus he is > associated with the > sea, which is chaos. Does anyone else sense an association > between chaos > and anarchy, or am I alone in this? One is a condition, > the other a > conviction, but both reflect similar virtues. The role of > chaos is > fundamental in alchemy. It is the dark night in which > salvation gestates. > The sea is the primordial chaos. Think of Kit's > crossing. Then, what does > Lew eventually accomplish? I'll remain silent on that > until the time is > right, but for those who have read ahead, Lew's > significance seems great. > > I know this is an incomplete offering, but I have to go > work for a while. > Someone is waiting on me. Perhaps I can carve out some > more time later. > > On Sat, Jul 19, 2008 at 8:00 AM, Mark Kohut > wrote: > > > Against the Day, p. 1040ff > > > > Why is he in AtD? He threads through from the > beginning in Chicago. I > > suggest he is the major anchor of reality/search for > truth in AtD. > > > > As in any novel, we have to get the author's > perspective on the various > > characters, their actions and utterances. In a satiric > work, as is (most of) > > TRPs, and in AtD, where so much is "mediated' > reality, often not Reality, > > the author needs to ground us through his satiric > vision (I offer much o the > > maths stuff as the best example of difficulty in > 'getting' how TRP means > > much of it). > > > > The Detective: Overview > > > > The detective in fiction (largely) started in the 19th > Century a bit before > > the time when ATD begins. E. A. Poe is often credited > with its origins, as > > well as a Frenchman I'm too lazy to look up. > Sherlock Holmes is, maybe, the > > first touchstone of achievement in detective fiction. > He figures everything > > out amidst all the confusions of life. > > > > When the writer is TRP exploring, among so much else, > the meaning of > > History, 20th Century America, modernity, is he[TRP} > like the detective > > figure? From a recent Guardian blog---which is > similarly expressed > > elsewhere: > > > > "The detective is a metaphor for the writer: the > isolated figure trying to > > comprehend a disordered world, constructing a > narrative that makes sense, > > and trying to persuade others to believe in his or her > account." > > > > We know TRP has used the detective-like form > before---V. and especially C > > of Lot 49, usually to frustrate any solving of > "the mystery"... > > > > Is it the same in AtD, or in this work are we given > some/more answers? > > > > > > > > > > > > From against.the.dave at gmail.com Sat Jul 19 22:53:37 2008 From: against.the.dave at gmail.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2008 22:53:37 -0500 Subject: The Coming Popularity and Power of Luddism Message-ID: The Coming Popularity and Power of Luddism Written by Stephen Euin Cobb Once upon a time a man got laid off from his job. So did most of his neighbors. They had all worked for a factory in their town but the factory upgraded the old machines for more efficient machines which needed fewer operators. The man who was laid off was very angry. He ranted and raved and whipped his neighbors into an angry mob and together they trashed the factory.... http://www.baens-universe.com/articles/The_Coming_Popularity_and_Power_of_Luddism From markekohut at yahoo.com Sun Jul 20 06:43:03 2008 From: markekohut at yahoo.com (Mark Kohut) Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2008 04:43:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: AtD (37) pp. 1040 ff Misc. Background and On Broadway Message-ID: <522066.99298.qm@web38404.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Misc background? Nathanael West, a TRP influence, whose 100th anniversary is this year, wrote about Southern California (and Hollywood) in 'Day of the Locust" : "West likens the inhabitant of the southland as a participant in a masquerade" ..Or just an FYI. p. 1040 Broadway (L.A.) --from wiki One of the oldest streets in the city, this section of Broadway (originally called Fort Street) was laid out as part of the 1849 plan of Los Angeles made by Lieutenant Edward Ord. Broadway from First Street to Olympic Boulevard was for more than fifty years the main commercial street of Los Angeles and one of its premier theater districts as well, containing a vast number of historic buildings and is listed on the National Register of Historic Places. Before World War II, Broadway was considered by many to be the center of the city, where residents came to catch movies at ornate movie palaces and shop at department stores. 'vast interior court below a domed skylight"....colours more intense... like a natural building only heightened......like the movies, I might throw out. "stunt" performers. another little bi-location joke? Doppelganger joke? :The 1930's marked the beginning of Hollywood's glory days. It was during this action-filled period that the modern profession of stunts truly began.--History of Stunts A little anachronous here? {we are in the 20s] Probably there were some earlier, perhaps especially for starlets. From markekohut at yahoo.com Sun Jul 20 06:46:18 2008 From: markekohut at yahoo.com (Mark Kohut) Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2008 04:46:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: AtD (37) p.1040 Thetis, Shalimar and Mezzanine Message-ID: <33512.79193.qm@web38403.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Thetis: Mother of Achilles (in the Iliad; in Greek mythology)....and, much later (smile) a battleship in the real world.(Also, a name in a Ronald Firbank novel. Pynchon seems to have read Firbank, says Harold Bloom. [Much AtD dialogue is Firbank-like, from my partial reading of one novel] Shalimar: A railway station in India, a perfume and also a battleship HMS Shalimar (P242), Mezzanine: a floor between main and first floors (nice "making it in Hollywood" joke?) From robinlandseadel at comcast.net Sun Jul 20 07:39:32 2008 From: robinlandseadel at comcast.net (robinlandseadel at comcast.net) Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2008 12:39:32 +0000 Subject: AtD (37) pp. 1040 ff Misc. Background and On Broadway Message-ID: <072020081239.20591.48833204000DCF370000506F2215593414040A0B0E0A9C0B020E0402070D019D@comcast.net> Lew Baslight has an obvious point of reference that no one has amplified on here [I touched on the subject sometime back.] The Firesign Theater has many elements in their surreal audio epics that overlap with Pynchon's world. Lew Baslight conceptually owes a bit to "Nick Danger, Third Eye," particularly the parodistic aspects, the willingness to find nothing [or everything] sacred. But even more to the point, the mis-en-scene of Against the Day might have been ripped right out of "W.C. Fields Forever" from "Waiting for the Electrician or Someone Like Him." "Now that you're so down-home tribal & all I want to take you up to the second bardo and orient you." Cross references to heretical spiritual systems at the "Lazy Ohm Collective Love Farm and Dues Ranch"---theosophy, tarot, illumination from the "mystic east" ["here, let me lay a stick of sandalwood incense on you, cut it off my own sandals"---proceeds to make sounds of joint being lit and inhaled] are just as densely distributed and silly as in Against the Day. "After Eight Years, Paint Brown," in addition to being a cool Bob Dylan citation resonates with Gravity's Rainbow, both in its paranoia and its sillyness. If Against the Day is to a certain extant a backward look I'd point to "Four or Five Crazy Guys" getting a little tip of the hat from OBA, particularly in the character of Lew. From markekohut at yahoo.com Sun Jul 20 07:52:09 2008 From: markekohut at yahoo.com (Mark Kohut) Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2008 05:52:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: AtD (37) p.1040 Thetis, Shalimar and Mezzanine In-Reply-To: <33512.79193.qm@web38403.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <363592.99634.qm@web38406.mail.mud.yahoo.com> belated research indicates that the mezzanine deck is where torpedoes are kept on submarines......... So, we have two battleships and a torpedo deck surrounding Lew. --- On Sun, 7/20/08, Mark Kohut wrote: > From: Mark Kohut > Subject: AtD (37) p.1040 Thetis, Shalimar and Mezzanine > To: "pynchon -l" > Date: Sunday, July 20, 2008, 7:46 AM > Thetis: Mother of Achilles (in the Iliad; in Greek > mythology)....and, much later (smile) a battleship in the > real world.(Also, a name in a Ronald Firbank novel. Pynchon > seems to have read Firbank, says Harold Bloom. [Much AtD > dialogue is Firbank-like, from my partial reading of one > novel] > > Shalimar: A railway station in India, a perfume and also a > battleship HMS Shalimar (P242), > > Mezzanine: a floor between main and first floors (nice > "making it in Hollywood" joke?) From robinlandseadel at comcast.net Sun Jul 20 09:12:26 2008 From: robinlandseadel at comcast.net (robinlandseadel at comcast.net) Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2008 14:12:26 +0000 Subject: AtD (37) pp.1040 ff. Thoughts on Lew Basnight, detective. Message-ID: <072020081412.18737.488347CA0008A4C0000049312215553894040A0B0E0A9C0B020E0402070D019D@comcast.net> Against the Day is a meta-fiction, a fiction concerned with fictions. There are many parodies of genres that first saw the light of day in the era of Against the Day. The Crime Novel or Mystery is a genre that blossomed during the era of Against the Day, Sherlock Holmes being but the most obvious example. Dashiell Hammett, an ex-Pinkerton, is more of the Hard-boiled Dick found in the States and closer to the mark for Lew. And of course, don't forget the previously cited Lew Archer: Profile Initially, Lew Archer was similar to (if not completely derivative of) Philip Marlowe. However, he eventually broke from that mold, though some similarities remain. Archer's principal difference is that he is much more openly sensitive and empathetic than the tough Marlowe. He also serves a different function than Marlowe. Raymond Chandler's books were studies of Marlowe's character and code of honor, while Macdonald used Archer as a lens to explore the relationships of the other characters in the novels. Archer's name is an homage to Dashiell Hammett: "Miles Archer" was the name of Sam Spade's murdered partner in The Maltese Falcon. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lew_Archer I keep turning back to The Crying of Lot 49 as something of a coda for Against the Day, Oedipa looking backwards at the detritus of a scene that manages to continue in darkness, a scene displayed in full daylight in AtD. Raymond Chandler's sense of place and the crude mechanics of local political power infuse The Crying of Lot 49. In AtD the character of Lew ties together the central thread of the story---Scarsdale Vibe's "hit" on Webb and the family's response to to Webb's execution. The loose ends of that story are all tied up thanks to some smooth teamwork between the psychic detective and the alchemical photographer. From against.the.dave at gmail.com Sun Jul 20 09:24:01 2008 From: against.the.dave at gmail.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2008 09:24:01 -0500 Subject: Trek, Zone, Peaks Message-ID: http://www.cbs.com/classics/star_trek/ http://www.cbs.com/classics/the_twilight_zone/ http://www.cbs.com/classics/twin_peaks/ From markekohut at yahoo.com Sun Jul 20 09:40:35 2008 From: markekohut at yahoo.com (Mark Kohut) Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2008 07:40:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: AtD (37) pp.1040 ff. Thoughts on Lew Basnight, detective. In-Reply-To: <072020081412.18737.488347CA0008A4C0000049312215553894040A0B0E0A9C0B020E0402070D019D@comcast.net> Message-ID: <439279.70979.qm@web38406.mail.mud.yahoo.com> I vote for more Lew Archer resonances in Lew [!] Basnight than the others, although of course, all of them resonate ala Pynchon's shimmering, layered way. Lew Archer because of 1) the name 2) the 'sensitive' detective 3) his mystery solutions are Freudian family dramas, Oedipal in many instances. 4) Very hot--reviewed on front page on NY Times by Eudora Welty when OBA was inhaling many of his intellectual sources. --- On Sun, 7/20/08, robinlandseadel at comcast.net wrote: > From: robinlandseadel at comcast.net > Subject: Re: AtD (37) pp.1040 ff. Thoughts on Lew Basnight, detective. > To: "P-list" > Date: Sunday, July 20, 2008, 10:12 AM > Against the Day is a meta-fiction, a fiction concerned with > fictions. > There are many parodies of genres that first saw the light > of day > in the era of Against the Day. The Crime Novel or Mystery > is a > genre that blossomed during the era of Against the Day, > Sherlock > Holmes being but the most obvious example. Dashiell > Hammett, > an ex-Pinkerton, is more of the Hard-boiled Dick found in > the > States and closer to the mark for Lew. And of course, > don't > forget the previously cited Lew Archer: > > Profile > > Initially, Lew Archer was similar to (if not > completely derivative > of) Philip Marlowe. However, he eventually broke > from that > mold, though some similarities remain. > Archer's principal > difference is that he is much more openly > sensitive and > empathetic than the tough Marlowe. He also serves > a > different function than Marlowe. Raymond > Chandler's books > were studies of Marlowe's character and code > of honor, while > Macdonald used Archer as a lens to explore the > relationships of > the other characters in the novels. > > Archer's name is an homage to Dashiell > Hammett: "Miles > Archer" was the name of Sam Spade's > murdered partner in > The Maltese Falcon. > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lew_Archer > > I keep turning back to The Crying of Lot 49 as something of > a coda > for Against the Day, Oedipa looking backwards at the > detritus of a > scene that manages to continue in darkness, a scene > displayed > in full daylight in AtD. Raymond Chandler's sense of > place and the crude > mechanics of local political power infuse The Crying of Lot > 49. In AtD the > character of Lew ties together the central thread of the > story---Scarsdale > Vibe's "hit" on Webb and the family's > response to to Webb's execution. > The loose ends of that story are all tied up thanks to some > smooth > teamwork between the psychic detective and the alchemical > photographer. From paul.mackin at verizon.net Sun Jul 20 10:02:12 2008 From: paul.mackin at verizon.net (Paul Mackin) Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2008 11:02:12 -0400 Subject: AtD (37) pp. 1040 ff Misc. Background and On Broadway In-Reply-To: <522066.99298.qm@web38404.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <522066.99298.qm@web38404.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <48835374.1030700@verizon.net> Mark Kohut wrote: > Misc background? Nathanael West, a TRP influence, whose 100th anniversary is this year, wrote about Southern California (and Hollywood) in 'Day of the Locust" : "West likens the inhabitant of the southland as a participant in a masquerade" ..Or just an FYI. > > p. 1040 Broadway (L.A.) --from wiki > One of the oldest streets in the city, this section of Broadway (originally called Fort Street) was laid out as part of the 1849 plan of Los Angeles made by Lieutenant Edward Ord. Broadway from First Street to Olympic Boulevard was for more than fifty years the main commercial street of Los Angeles and one of its premier theater districts as well, containing a vast number of historic buildings and is listed on the National Register of Historic Places. > > Before World War II, Broadway was considered by many to be the center of the city, where residents came to catch movies at ornate movie palaces and shop at department stores. > This is the locale of the book I guess I feel most connected to. My future parents moved to L.A. in the early twenties and I was born near mid-decade. I habituated the Broadway movie theaters and other attractions a lot during the WW II years. By that time new movies had their West Coast openings on Hollywood Blvd. as well as on Broadway, but I much preferred to see them on Broadway. We lived about half way between, but I loved the trolley ride downtown. I think Pynchon gets by-gone L.A. fairly well. Overall, the feel seems right. The "three levels of security" in Lew's office is a little joke. Everyone knows private eyes didn't have a lot of security. My impression is that the L.A. and Hollywood of my day was extremely relaxed about any kind of "security." At least in situations I would be likely to encounter. High school or college kids could wander into exclusive beach clubs etc and hang around for hours sometimes before being asked to leave. Pynchon is good on Southern Cal but he's not quite a native speaker. For example, while one would go "up to" Santa Barbara, it doesn't sound at all right going "up to" Hollywood. One goes "over to" Hollywood. Hollywood does have its "hills" but you don't start up into them unless you are already as far as, say, Hollywood and Vine. (oddly, you might possibly get away with saying "up to Pasadena" although "over to" would be more common) Santa Barbara sounded pretty authentic. I didn't really know the old downtown Santa Barbara--before the mission decor took over a few years after the goings on with Lew. The state picnics are well done. Been to a number of them. P. > 'vast interior court below a domed skylight"....colours more intense... > like a natural building only heightened......like the movies, I might throw out. > > "stunt" performers. another little bi-location joke? Doppelganger joke? > > :The 1930's marked the beginning of Hollywood's glory days. It was during this action-filled period that the modern profession of stunts truly began.--History of Stunts > > A little anachronous here? {we are in the 20s] Probably there were some earlier, perhaps especially for starlets. > > > > > > From markekohut at yahoo.com Sun Jul 20 10:40:32 2008 From: markekohut at yahoo.com (Mark Kohut) Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2008 08:40:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: AtD (37) p. 1040...more electricty and railroads Message-ID: <748816.75670.qm@web38401.mail.mud.yahoo.com> The Pacific Electric Building (also known as the Huntington Building, after the developer, Henry Huntington, or 6th & Main for its location) opened in 1905 as the terminal for the Pacific Electric Red Car Lines running east and south of downtown Los Angeles, as well as the company's main headquarters building. It was designed by architect Thornton Fitzhugh. Though not the first modern building in Los Angeles, nor the tallest, its large footprint and ten floor height made it the largest building in floor area west of Chicago for several decades after its completion. Above the main floor terminal were five floors of offices and, on the top three floors, the facilities of the Jonathan Club, one of the city's leading businessmen's clubs. Sold, later to The Southern Pacific Railroad More, more of Pynchon's railroads and electricity and their connections...Are there more railroads in AtD than in any other novel, poem, epic ever? I want to NOTE WELL how P's sinister electricity/railroad associations and battleship security jokes characterize sunny Hollywood/LA and easygoing Lew so differently from our (probable) preconceptions. Hollywood/LA is dangerous in itself. Prohibition: 1920 to 1933 in the United States Lew is now a typical hard-drinking PI. What does that do to our judgment of his perceptions? Misc. new movie, LA, 1928: http://www.variety.com/index.asp?layout=festivals&jump=review&id=2531&reviewid=VE1117937210 From monte.davis at verizon.net Sun Jul 20 11:45:45 2008 From: monte.davis at verizon.net (Monte Davis) Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2008 12:45:45 -0400 Subject: AtD (37) pp. 1040 ff Misc. Background and On Broadway In-Reply-To: <48835374.1030700@verizon.net> Message-ID: <653A5D22D9AF494EABB532D108515164@MSI1> Paul Mackin sez: > The state picnics are well done. Been to a number of them. I have only Texas, Maine, and mid-Atlantic picnics to go on, but the potato-salad paragraph on p. 1048 is pitch-perfect in both dialogue (OK, multiple mayonnaise monologues) and narration. It's up there with the best of Mamet or Elmore Leonard for American voice on the page. From markekohut at yahoo.com Sun Jul 20 12:20:29 2008 From: markekohut at yahoo.com (Mark Kohut) Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2008 10:20:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Atd (37) p. 1041. Erie Line, 'home', Lincolnwood, fascism and elm trees Message-ID: <453953.52785.qm@web38402.mail.mud.yahoo.com> P. 1041 Erie Line: Railroad from the East to Chicago. , the first Pullman car appeared on the Erie line in 1872. it went through my town, Jersey City, I learn. www.susquehannadepot.org/erieeffects.shtml Note this: The Erie and the DL&W were merged in 1960. line 2"remember ...home": how much of AtD is about being away from Home, homeless in a spiritual/psychological sense. Just about everybody, yes? Modernity's legacy. line 5"industrial security"...just a new descriptive phrase?, since White City Investigations if, like the Pinkertons, etc. has been involved in protecting business interests since the 19th century? line 6 "or just thinking about going out [on strike]" TRP's "1984" respect and influence... line 7 "ops now wearing two-tone brown uniforms"...BROWNSHIRTS?, totalitarian, fascist allusion? The Industrial Security Society was not founded until 1955, just fyi. Lincolnwood: Of course, the head of a Private Eye Company would retire to Lincolnwood. named after Abe Lincoln: During Prohibition, Tessville [original name] became a haven for speakeasies and gambling facilities. Tessville was long reputed for drinking and gambling until the 1931 election of its longest-serving mayor, Henry A. Proesel, a grandson of George Proesel, one of the original American settlers.[!!] In 1932, Lincoln Avenue, formerly a plank toll road, became a state highway. Proesel then worked with the federal government's Public Works Administration and hired the community's entire unemployed workforce to plant 10,000 elm trees on the village streets. Most important, the community passed a liquor license law (1934) that limited the number of licenses allowable within the city limits and became a model ordinance for other communities. Proesel finally changed Tessville's image when he renamed the village Lincolnwood in 1936. wikipedia. It is a rich Chicago suburb, made possible originally because of the railroad!...And, of course, the head of an Agency that spied on workers/people would retire to a community named after Abraham Lincoln! (And notice, TRP calls it Lincolnwood before it was.) (misc. I learned that Richard Powers went to high school here) TRP choosing THIS ONE COMMUNITY by name, when he could have chosen any of thousands, is one of those details that expands in my mind like a good drug---remember in 'Slow Learner" when he said he once used a word he really did not know and did not look up?........never again, it seems, never.......... From g.i.s.pursey at reading.ac.uk Sun Jul 20 11:57:13 2008 From: g.i.s.pursey at reading.ac.uk (Guy Ian Scott Pursey) Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2008 17:57:13 +0100 Subject: meta-something References: <22973169.1216229923621.JavaMail.root@mswamui-blood.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <007801c8e76d$7a164330$6e42c990$@com> <889AD64D-1D1E-4746-99BB-F132732D7CAC@mac.com> Message-ID: <0A9745774F2BF6409F9544231DCC266102AB20DA@vime1.rdg-home.ad.rdg.ac.uk> > "One thing I've noticed is that Pynchon generally respects the limits of metaphor so as not to dishonor the atrocities. He tends to steer a bit clear of dealing with historical genocides (Indian, Jewish, Armenian and so on)." Unlike, for example, Jonathan Safran Foer. Anyway, I guess what you're saying is mainly in reference to AtD, which I still haven't managed to forklift off my bookshelf... But I find myself nodding w/r/t the points you're making. Off the top of my head: the scene in M&D where Dixon takes on the slave-owner. As long as I have my memory, that'll stay with me. Is that an example of the kind of direct language you're talking about? Guy -----Original Message----- From: owner-pynchon-l at waste.org on behalf of Bekah Sent: Sat 7/19/2008 18:25 To: Pynchon Liste Subject: meta-something On Jul 16, 2008, at 10:57 AM, Henry wrote: > I turn to fiction because of the hubris of non-fiction's posing as > fact when, in fact, fact is in the arty-facts. Oh hello from days ago but this just won't get out of mind. I think I understand what you're saying and yes, the idea of meta-history seems always just under the surface in AtD. Pynchon may be very subtly stirring a wee bit of iron-y flavored meta-history into the mix , what with some ever so slightly skewed chronology and a smattering of curious omissions. However, and I think this is most evident in the Luddlow part, there are some "events" which are, even later, beyond metaphor. The memory has emotional impact. We are stirred when we first learn of it and say stuff like "where was that in the history books?" It was hidden between Manifest Destiny and WWI -in the part about "Give me your tired, your poor, your ignorant." No, Ludlow deserves the very clearest and most direct language we can offer because words become all we have. To do less would be to sweep the barbaric hubris of capitalist greed into some kind of dust- bin of "history is bunk." Yes, history from the top has its poses as does history from the bottom - nevertheless, we ought not throw the baby out with the bath water. Remember Catalonia and all that - as best we can. One thing I've noticed is that Pychon generally respects the limits of metaphor so as not to dishonor the atrocities. He tends to steer a bit clear of dealing with historical genocides (Indian, Jewish, Armenian and so on). That said, from the workers' pov he hit the Ludlow Massacre head on - metaphor or not (and was actually much pretty dry in that department) - because sometimes words are all we have. I wonder about the consistency of my position here but although I kinda, sorta, understand the ideas of Hayden White - there is, nevertheless, a time and place for the clearest language we have (metaphor or not, because it will speak for itself) so as not to forget the magnitude of human inhumanity. Bekah From markekohut at yahoo.com Sun Jul 20 12:56:30 2008 From: markekohut at yahoo.com (Mark Kohut) Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2008 10:56:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: AtD (37) p. 1041: toilets, money, shit, easy sex, the Hollywoodization of History? Message-ID: <998911.56434.qm@web38408.mail.mud.yahoo.com> line 16: "in the toilets of the wealthy".....Cf. that harmonica chasing in GR....and the sewers of V....... See upcoming toilet reading scene in this chapter. Cf. linkage, out of Norman O. Brown's "Life Against Death" surely, of money and shit. Hollywood is worse than Chicago! Sex is easy and no strings. See Alienist Ghloix on the p-wiki if necessary. Now, here in Hollywood, those lawfolk ''who worked both sides" could settle down with their all-American brides and turn their bad deeds into entertainment! See the future of such since. Pervasive. Shadow factories: great phrase for a motion picture production company, yes? What Jung's 'shadow' concept has come to in Hollywood America? Hollywoodization of history: "the wild ancient days ...turned into harmless packages of flickering entertainment." Lew never thought he'd see the day! Straight-seeing Lou thinking against the day. Miss Pomidore=Tomato From robinlandseadel at comcast.net Sun Jul 20 13:34:03 2008 From: robinlandseadel at comcast.net (robinlandseadel at comcast.net) Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2008 18:34:03 +0000 Subject: Atd (37) p. 1041. Erie Line, 'home', Lincolnwood, fascism and a pink tab Message-ID: <072020081834.9216.4883851B00056064000024002216554886040A0B0E0A9C0B020E0402070D019D@comcast.net> Page 1041 got a pink tab. . . . He knew the other lawfolk of his day, those who worked both sides till they forgot which they were on, who'd came to rank, some of them,among the baddest of the bad, now, their gray mustaches long shaved away, at peace on this western shore, were getting rich off of real-estate deals only slightly more legit than the the train robberies they used to depend on for revenue. . . . p. 1041 She thought of a hotel room in Mazatlan whose door had just been slammed, it seemed forever, waking up two hundred birds down in the lobby; a sunrise over the library slope at Cornell University that nobody out on it had seen because the slope faces west; a dry, disconsolate tune from the fourth movement of the Bartok Concerto for Orchestra; a whitewashed bust of Jay Gould that Pierce kept over the bed on a shelf so narrow for it she'd always had the hovering fear it would someday topple on them. Was that how he'd died, she wondered, among dreams, crushed by the only ikon in the house? That only made her laugh, out loud and helpless: You're so sick, Oedipa, she told herself, or the room, which knew. . . . CoL 49, first page Jay Gould ran the Erie Line, cited at the top of the page. Pynchon's technique frequently is based on associative relation---not logical or sequential but more like a parallel port, interleaving information and not always setting it down straight on the page. There is a conscious resonance with the Crying of Lot 49 here, a whiff of the eau de Robber Baron hybridized with the stank of train robbers, the two classes regarded as moral equals save for vast differences in the scale of their respective enterprises. I'm sure that out author is aware of his family history--one doesn't spend that much time checking out old newspapers* without allowing the eyes to catch whenever one finds their none-to-common family name in the New York Times or the Times of London. And OBA's moral ambiguity as regards these distant ancestors is all over Against the Day, the author showing us time and again how projects funded by the George M./Pynchon & Co. juggernaut both enhanced and damaged the world, Electric Lights, Radio and Rail Lines getting extra attention. *"Indeed, when annotating Gravity's Rainbow, one of my greatest surprises came with the discovery that details of story reveal a narrative chronometrics that can be concisely plotted. I mean detail of the most unobtrusive sort: images of the moon, remarks about weather, movies playing at London theaters, a song playing over the radio, references to BBC programs and newspaper headlines and saints' days. Many of these were available to Pynchon through one of his main sources, the Times of London. . . ." Steven C. Weisenburger: "A Gravity's Rainbow Companion, page 9. From igrlivingston at gmail.com Sun Jul 20 13:47:20 2008 From: igrlivingston at gmail.com (Ian Livingston) Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2008 11:47:20 -0700 Subject: AtD (37) p. 1041: toilets, money, shit, easy sex, the Hollywoodization of History? In-Reply-To: <998911.56434.qm@web38408.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <998911.56434.qm@web38408.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <95cde1ee0807201147n57017e0lc113d613b14e40c0@mail.gmail.com> Shadow factories: great phrase for a motion picture production company, yes? What Jung's 'shadow' concept has come to in Hollywood America? Yes, this is a perfect phrase for Hollywood, but I'd be more inclined to think of Plato here than Jung. These are shadows cast up against the wall of the cave, whereas the Jungian shadow has more to do with personality traits sublimated through denial and rejection of the content. There surely are links, though. The 'scandalous' behavior of actors on and off screen attracts ordinary folk most unreasonably. This could indeed be symptomatic of shadow elements: we are fascinated by that in others which we find most intolerable in ourselves. On Sun, Jul 20, 2008 at 10:56 AM, Mark Kohut wrote: > line 16: "in the toilets of the wealthy".....Cf. that harmonica chasing in > GR....and the sewers of V....... See upcoming toilet reading scene in this > chapter. Cf. linkage, out of Norman O. Brown's "Life Against Death" surely, > of money and shit. > > Hollywood is worse than Chicago! Sex is easy and no strings. See Alienist > Ghloix on the p-wiki > if necessary. > Now, here in Hollywood, those lawfolk ''who worked both sides" could settle > down with their all-American brides and turn their bad deeds into > entertainment! See the future of such since. Pervasive. > > > Shadow factories: great phrase for a motion picture production company, > yes? What Jung's 'shadow' concept has come to in Hollywood America? > > > > Hollywoodization of history: "the wild ancient days ...turned into harmless > packages of flickering entertainment." > > > > Lew never thought he'd see the day! Straight-seeing Lou thinking against > the day. > > > > Miss Pomidore=Tomato > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From markekohut at yahoo.com Sun Jul 20 14:11:01 2008 From: markekohut at yahoo.com (Mark Kohut) Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2008 12:11:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Atd (37) p. 1041. Erie Line, 'home', Lincolnwood, fascism and a pink tab In-Reply-To: <072020081834.9216.4883851B00056064000024002216554886040A0B0E0A9C0B020E0402070D019D@comcast.net> Message-ID: <301797.24537.qm@web38402.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Gould and Pierce V. and all the old railroad money in AtD.... VERY NICE...................... everything connects. --- On Sun, 7/20/08, robinlandseadel at comcast.net wrote: > From: robinlandseadel at comcast.net > Subject: Re: Atd (37) p. 1041. Erie Line, 'home', Lincolnwood, fascism and a pink tab > To: "P-list" > Date: Sunday, July 20, 2008, 2:34 PM > Page 1041 got a pink tab. . . . > > He knew the other lawfolk of his day, those who > worked both > sides till they forgot which they were on, > who'd came to rank, > some of them,among the baddest of the bad, now, > their gray > mustaches long shaved away, at peace on this > western shore, > were getting rich off of real-estate deals only > slightly more legit > than the the train robberies they used to depend > on for revenue. . . . > p. 1041 > > She thought of a hotel room in Mazatlan whose > door had just > been slammed, it seemed forever, waking up two > hundred birds > down in the lobby; a sunrise over the library > slope at Cornell > University that nobody out on it had seen because > the slope faces > west; a dry, disconsolate tune from the fourth > movement of the Bartok > Concerto for Orchestra; a whitewashed bust of Jay > Gould that Pierce > kept over the bed on a shelf so narrow for it > she'd always had the > hovering fear it would someday topple on them. > Was that how he'd > died, she wondered, among dreams, crushed by the > only ikon in the > house? That only made her laugh, out loud and > helpless: You're so > sick, Oedipa, she told herself, or the room, > which knew. . . . > CoL 49, first page > > Jay Gould ran the Erie Line, cited at the top of the page. > Pynchon's technique > frequently is based on associative relation---not logical > or sequential but more > like a parallel port, interleaving information and not > always setting it > down straight on the page. > > There is a conscious resonance with the Crying of Lot 49 > here, a whiff of the > eau de Robber Baron hybridized with the stank of train > robbers, the two > classes regarded as moral equals save for vast differences > in the scale > of their respective enterprises. > > I'm sure that out author is aware of his family > history--one doesn't spend that > much time checking out old newspapers* without allowing the > eyes to catch > whenever one finds their none-to-common family name in the > New York Times > or the Times of London. And OBA's moral ambiguity as > regards these distant > ancestors is all over Against the Day, the author showing > us time and again > how projects funded by the George M./Pynchon & Co. > juggernaut both > enhanced and damaged the world, Electric Lights, Radio and > Rail Lines > getting extra attention. > > *"Indeed, when annotating Gravity's Rainbow, one > of my greatest surprises > came with the discovery that details of story reveal a > narrative > chronometrics that can be concisely plotted. I mean detail > of the most > unobtrusive sort: images of the moon, remarks about > weather, movies > playing at London theaters, a song playing over the radio, > references to > BBC programs and newspaper headlines and saints' days. > Many of > these were available to Pynchon through one of his main > sources, the > Times of London. . . ." > Steven C. Weisenburger: "A Gravity's Rainbow > Companion, page 9. From markekohut at yahoo.com Sun Jul 20 14:13:31 2008 From: markekohut at yahoo.com (Mark Kohut) Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2008 12:13:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: AtD (37) p. 1041: toilets, money, shit, easy sex, the Hollywoodization of History? In-Reply-To: <95cde1ee0807201147n57017e0lc113d613b14e40c0@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <398539.6209.qm@web38408.mail.mud.yahoo.com> I (re)think you are surely right.....shadows on the wall..... 'magic lantern' as Bergman wrote............not reality but reflected images of................................. --- On Sun, 7/20/08, Ian Livingston wrote: > From: Ian Livingston > Subject: Re: AtD (37) p. 1041: toilets, money, shit, easy sex, the Hollywoodization of History? > To: markekohut at yahoo.com, "pynchon -l" > Date: Sunday, July 20, 2008, 2:47 PM > Shadow factories: great phrase for a motion picture > production company, yes? > What Jung's 'shadow' concept has come to in > Hollywood America? > > Yes, this is a perfect phrase for Hollywood, but I'd be > more inclined to > think of Plato here than Jung. These are shadows cast up > against the wall > of the cave, whereas the Jungian shadow has more to do with > personality > traits sublimated through denial and rejection of the > content. There surely > are links, though. The 'scandalous' behavior of > actors on and off screen > attracts ordinary folk most unreasonably. This could > indeed be symptomatic > of shadow elements: we are fascinated by that in others > which we find most > intolerable in ourselves. > > On Sun, Jul 20, 2008 at 10:56 AM, Mark Kohut > wrote: > > > line 16: "in the toilets of the > wealthy".....Cf. that harmonica chasing in > > GR....and the sewers of V....... See upcoming toilet > reading scene in this > > chapter. Cf. linkage, out of Norman O. Brown's > "Life Against Death" surely, > > of money and shit. > > > > Hollywood is worse than Chicago! Sex is easy and no > strings. See Alienist > > Ghloix on the p-wiki > > if necessary. > > Now, here in Hollywood, those lawfolk ''who > worked both sides" could settle > > down with their all-American brides and turn their bad > deeds into > > entertainment! See the future of such since. > Pervasive. > > > > > > Shadow factories: great phrase for a motion picture > production company, > > yes? What Jung's 'shadow' concept has come > to in Hollywood America? > > > > > > > > Hollywoodization of history: "the wild ancient > days ...turned into harmless > > packages of flickering entertainment." > > > > > > > > Lew never thought he'd see the day! > Straight-seeing Lou thinking against > > the day. > > > > > > > > Miss Pomidore=Tomato > > > > > > > > From markekohut at yahoo.com Sun Jul 20 14:14:56 2008 From: markekohut at yahoo.com (Mark Kohut) Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2008 12:14:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: AtD (37) p. 1041: toilets, money, shit, easy sex, the Hollywoodization of History? In-Reply-To: <95cde1ee0807201147n57017e0lc113d613b14e40c0@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <884288.91766.qm@web38404.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Ian Livingston wrote: There surely are links, though. The 'scandalous' behavior of actors on and off screen attracts ordinary folk most unreasonably. This could indeed be symptomatic of shadow elements: we are fascinated by that in others which we find most intolerable in ourselves. --- On Sun, 7/20/08, Ian Livingston wrote: > From: Ian Livingston > Subject: Re: AtD (37) p. 1041: toilets, money, shit, easy sex, the Hollywoodization of History? > To: markekohut at yahoo.com, "pynchon -l" > Date: Sunday, July 20, 2008, 2:47 PM > Shadow factories: great phrase for a motion picture > production company, yes? > What Jung's 'shadow' concept has come to in > Hollywood America? > > Yes, this is a perfect phrase for Hollywood, but I'd be > more inclined to > think of Plato here than Jung. These are shadows cast up > against the wall > of the cave, whereas the Jungian shadow has more to do with > personality > traits sublimated through denial and rejection of the > content. There surely > are links, though. The 'scandalous' behavior of > actors on and off screen > attracts ordinary folk most unreasonably. This could > indeed be symptomatic > of shadow elements: we are fascinated by that in others > which we find most > intolerable in ourselves. > > On Sun, Jul 20, 2008 at 10:56 AM, Mark Kohut > wrote: > > > line 16: "in the toilets of the > wealthy".....Cf. that harmonica chasing in > > GR....and the sewers of V....... See upcoming toilet > reading scene in this > > chapter. Cf. linkage, out of Norman O. Brown's > "Life Against Death" surely, > > of money and shit. > > > > Hollywood is worse than Chicago! Sex is easy and no > strings. See Alienist > > Ghloix on the p-wiki > > if necessary. > > Now, here in Hollywood, those lawfolk ''who > worked both sides" could settle > > down with their all-American brides and turn their bad > deeds into > > entertainment! See the future of such since. > Pervasive. > > > > > > Shadow factories: great phrase for a motion picture > production company, > > yes? What Jung's 'shadow' concept has come > to in Hollywood America? > > > > > > > > Hollywoodization of history: "the wild ancient > days ...turned into harmless > > packages of flickering entertainment." > > > > > > > > Lew never thought he'd see the day! > Straight-seeing Lou thinking against > > the day. > > > > > > > > Miss Pomidore=Tomato > > > > > > > > From robinlandseadel at comcast.net Sun Jul 20 14:41:07 2008 From: robinlandseadel at comcast.net (robinlandseadel at comcast.net) Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2008 19:41:07 +0000 Subject: Atd (37) p. 1041. Erie Line, 'home', Lincolnwood, fascism and a pink tab Message-ID: <072020081941.9117.488394D30004DCB70000239D2215586394040A0B0E0A9C0B020E0402070D019D@comcast.net> He who shall not be named waxed curious as regards Pynchon's potential interest in his family history. There is nothing like a black/white reductionism here, but an awareness of his family's contributions, both pro and con, a part of the greater narrative of the rise of American Empire. The author persues revisionist histories of those businesses that Pynchon & Co. had a hand in during their "Day." It seems like many family secrets are buried in Crying of Lot 49, the allusions to the W.A.S.T. E. laws of land management pointing to Pynchon v. Stearns, a landmark case on property management that managed to connect by family history to T.S. Eliot and The Wasteland. Pynchon, being fully aware of his family involvement in the development of the modern world of espionage tracks the emergence of Pinkerton, something developing right along and with the primary investments of Pynchon & Co. during the "Day." These spy networks were particularly on Pynchon's mind while writing Gravity's Rainbow. One sees how fully OBA must have been possessed by the ghost of Richard Farina. From markekohut at yahoo.com Sun Jul 20 15:01:43 2008 From: markekohut at yahoo.com (Mark Kohut) Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2008 13:01:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: AtD (37) p.1042 'movie-themes, emigres, Le Street, Vertex Club' Message-ID: <412713.38617.qm@web38408.mail.mud.yahoo.com> P. 1042 " Erno Rapee movie-theme book" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erno_Rapee... ..Another emigre from Eastern Europe........remember Bela Somebody from Lugos?(who became Bela Lugosi of course......what is the connection between Pynchon focussing so much story out of there and then emigres turning up later, in music, Hollywood, etc.?(we can remember how much of early Hollywood was built by such immigrants.) Chester Le Street. Chester of the street. [and: "le" and "the", both being articles, bear as little significance as possible, and so are "unsubstantial" and virtually invisible--from "Finnegans Wake" commentary] Cf. Compare all the human things that happen on "the streets" in AtD. Cf. street fairs all over the world? Remember when Kit and Dally "do it in the street"? Streets are where anarchists play? (writer\ named seed says 'the street' is threatening in early--thru GR--TRP?) ["the ghost bikes are like a quiet and respectful aspect of the old Reclaim the Streets initiatives - except they proceed from the premise that the streets do not need to be reclaimed by confrontation, that they are already ours." Geoff Dyer, Guardian, May 16. Real life happens there, usually.] ["Such a vision of the street As the street hardly understands;" ----T.S. Eliot] Vertex Club: The vertex is the intersection of two lines of an angle, the zero point on a graph/grid. Recalls the V-Note in V..(which leads me to THIS thought about "V.", the symbol: Is a major part of its symbolic meaning the way the lines diverge? As History diverged from a 'good zero point'?....I think this cause it would seem that the V-Note and the Vertex Club would be positive places in Pynchon's associations. Where the lines start, so to speak?) From markekohut at yahoo.com Sun Jul 20 17:39:56 2008 From: markekohut at yahoo.com (Mark Kohut) Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2008 15:39:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: AtD (37) p.1042 on the Syncopated Strangler, incarnation and maracas Message-ID: <379713.12918.qm@web38403.mail.mud.yahoo.com> "Mezzanine Perkins!", the girls practicing shocked gasps. (Remind any others of some of the 'girls' in M & D?) Does anyone know how far back that line, "once you've had black, etc.' goes? Santa Barbara, more coming up, Lew Archer's usual stomping ground and one of the noir detective tropes; dead woman shows up alive, maybe? "Laura" maybe the most famous movie using the notion? Syncopated Strangler case. Not real, it seems, but the Eagles have a song: "The Disco Strangler--A distinctive guitar lick opens this one. The song sounds a little rhythmically confused, with the drums, guitar, bass and vocals all seemingly disjointed, but it all finally fits together. Don Henley provides the lead vocals in this song about meeting the wrong person in a nightclub." Encarnacion means incarnation in Spanish. Seems to be a popular-enough name. (3 major league ballplayers have had it). Metaphoric for Hollywood? and certainly for Pynchon here. Misc. way-out notion: The American democratic experience has been called by some, the American Incarnation. Is Hollywood, daylit (and darkroom) fiction, what America has become, is becoming, instead of a good incarnation? Misc. a much later movie with echoes: "Encarnacion (or Ernie) is an aging actress (her 10 minutes of fame are over and consisted of a movie and some work as main dancer in music hall). As many old actresses; is obviously fighting against age however she is not stupid and knows her limits. She manages to survive doing commercials or publicity while looking for the occasional job in movies or TV attending premieres, keeping in touch with the industry or setting up a web page with her bio." Maraca: One of what come in pairs, maracas..gourd with beans or such shaken in music...also, a species of tarantula. also, 60s Calif slang for boob(s) From kelber at mindspring.com Sun Jul 20 18:10:10 2008 From: kelber at mindspring.com (kelber at mindspring.com) Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2008 19:10:10 -0400 (GMT-04:00) Subject: ATDTDA: (36) pgs 1030-1038 Message-ID: <24266490.1216595411677.JavaMail.root@elwamui-milano.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Bekah, My computer's been having a meltdown and seemed to freeze (mixed metaphor) every time I tried to respond to any of your posts, so if this one gets through, just wanted to thank you for the double hosting you undertook. Laura -----Original Message----- >From: Bekah >Sent: Jul 15, 2008 10:18 PM >To: P-list >Subject: ATDTDA: (36) pgs 1030-1038 > >And on to the Ætheronauts, light/dark and moving pictures > > > >**************** >page 1030 > >* Sodality of Ætheronauts >A sodality is a society; the ætheronauts use the æther as their >medium of flight via mechanical wings - they are religious novices. >The Chums figure they were destined to have families but the girls >could never really go to earth so they nested on the city rooftops > >* nitronaphthol - engine fuel >* chaffinch a pretty little bird > >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaffinch > >**************** >Page 1030 > >The girls' names are: > >* Heartsease - a flower - Viola tricolor - which has the medicinal >quality of lifting the spirits, i.e., "Mends a broken heart" - she >pairs up with Randolph > >* Primula - the Primrose (Primula vulgaris) has the medicinal quality >of inducing sleep and she pairs up with Miles > >* Viridian, from the Latin for "green," and she's definitely "green", >as demonstrated by this scolding of Chick Counterfly: "Fumes are not >the future," >pairs up with Chick > >* Blaze, "Burning dead dinosaurs and whatever they ate ain't the >answer, Crankshaft Boy." >pairs up with Darby >"each had found her way to this Ætherist sorority through the >mysteries of" - ta-da, ta-da... "inconvenience..." (lower case) >such as a missed train or great waves of wind, light saturation > >****************** > >page 1031 > >(what is this - a bunch of science stuff I have no comprehension of) > > >Like Sidney and Beatrice Webb around here." - British socialists of >the day. >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beatrice_Webb > >The Chums flew northwest and found the City of our Lady - Queen of >the Angels - >Los Angeles was founded in 1781 as "Pueblo de Nuestra Señora la Reina >de los Ángeles." >Reina = Queen, fairly common female name in Spanish > >"... where on earth is this - that's sort of the problem - the on >earth part." Indicating that this likely is the counter earth, >although I don't know why this couldn't be the real earth and the >other one was the counter earth. How could one tell? > > > >And the coming darkness cast by the light: > >And in Southern California light is flooding forth form suburban >homes and so on - factory sky-lights - athletic fields, city plazas, >automobile lights - > >"... they felt themselves an uneasy witness to some final conquest, a >triumph over night whose motive none could quite grasp." > > >**************** >Page 1033 > >Light seems to have won over darkness, but that's not necessarily >good news as there are side effects to the conquest of darkness: >Labor now works overtime and xtra work-shifts? >But there is additional employment - further expansion - > >The Chums debate briefly: >"Yup groundhog sweat misery and early graves." >more investment in these things and ... > >"I am as fond of the subjunctive mood as any." >"fuck you," = "Long live capitalism" > > >Darkness from the light: >Miles: "Lucifer - son of the morning - bearer of light - Prince of >Evil >http://www.dpjs.co.uk/lucifer.html > >Isaiah's epithet for the King of Babylon with Christ's vision - >according t o Luke, of Satan falling like lighting from heaven. >http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=luke%2010:18-10:18&version=9 >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucifer >Satan - etc. > > >But their "paycheck" bounces so our boys are in California without >evident means of support > >**************** > >Page 1034 > >At a Hollywood hot dog stand called "Links" (like the very real >Pinks of Hollywood?) ... >http://www.pinkshollywood.com/pgz/history.htm >(but Pinks opened in 1940 or so - ) > > > Chick Counterfly runs into his father, Dick who drives a Packard >and lives in a Beaux Arts mansion on West Adams with his 3rd wife, >Treacle (dark and syrupy sweet - will probably rot your teeth). > >1914 Packard - >http://www.autogallery.org.ru/k/p/14pacmodel238touring_HMN.jpg > >Beaux Arts mansion >http://architecture.about.com/od/periodsstyles/ig/House-Styles/Beaux- >Arts.htm > >West Adams, LA >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Adams,_Los_Angeles,_California >A large area of now historic homes in LA. > >"The West Adams area was developed between 1880 and 1925, and >contains many diverse architectural styles of the era. Architectural >styles seen in West Adams include the Queen Anne, Shingle, Gothic >Revival, Transitional Arts and Crafts, American Craftsman/Ultimate >Bungalow, Craftsman Bungalow, Colonial Revival, Renaissance Revival, >Mediterranean Revival, Spanish Colonial Revival, Mission Revival, >Egyptian Revival, Beaux-Arts and Neoclassical styles. West Adams >boasts the only Greene and Greene house in Los Angeles. Its historic >homes are frequently used as locations for movies and TV shows >including CSI, Six Feet Under, The Shield, Monk, Confessions of a >Dangerous Mind and Of Mice and Men." > >Dick shows off his machinery - a big spinning disk - Nipkow scanner >1884 which was invented by Paul Nipkow in 1884 and used for very >early stages of television. Although capable of high-speed scanning, >conventional Nipkow disks failed to provide enough amounts of light >to image fluorescence from live cells. > >http://www.yokogawa.com/scanner/products/csu10e.htm > >http://www.diycalculator.com/popup-h-console.shtml#A3 > >They apparently access Gilligan's Island what with the sailor-hatted >monkey (Dobey Gillis), the palm tree and the Skipper showing up on >the screen. Dick says he picks this one up every week. > >**************** > >Page 1035 > >Chick and Dick go to meet Merle Rideout and Roswell Bounce at the Van >Nuys balloon field. Roswell is paranoid > >**************** >Page 1036 >Oxone . . . Blattnerphone components > >Oxone - a type of oxidizer > >The Blattnerphone recorder http://www.collectionscanada.gc.ca/ >gramophone/m2-3021.3-e.html > > > >Fleming valve > >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fleming_valve > >Lee De Forest added that grid electrode to the Fleming valve >The Fleming valve--named for British electrical engineer Sir John >Ambrose Fleming (1849–1945)--was an early form of diode (a vacuum >tube in which electrons flow in one direction, from a heated filament >to a plate). In 1907, De Forest (AtD, p. 29) created the triode out >of the diode by inserting a curved mesh grid, whose voltage could be >varied, between the filament and the plate. > >output . . . can be the indefinite integral of any signal > >Long discussion mostly removed to the Discussion page on Jan. 23, 2008 >This is in fact an elegant mathematical, or, better, 'pataphysical, >expression of the phenomenon of looking at a single photograph and >imagining it as part of a movie (which is after all just a sequence >of still photographs), or of many possible movies--the movie is the >integral of the photograph. This is techno-mathematical nonsense of a >very particular kind: an example of 'Pataphysics [5], which its >originator, the absurdist novelist and playwright Alfred Jarry [6] >(1873-1907) defined as "The science of imaginary solutions". His >fictional creation Dr. Faustroll explains that 'Pataphysics deals >with "the laws which govern exceptions and will explain the universe >supplementary to this one". One can imagine any number of possible >"movies" or world-lines, for the subject of a photograph, any number >of alternate histories and supplementary universes. > >paranoia querelans >Misspelling of querulans. This page describes the disorder. > > >They've got the theory now to find the analogies >but Roswell is paranoid - querelans > >they accumulate stuff not knowing what to do with it but sure enough >- they find something - > >photo of downtown LA - Merle rocked the carbons - took from the >cabinet a brilliant red crystal - Lorandite - from Macedonia before >the Balkan wars - pure thallium arsenosulphide - > > >Merle [...] took from a wall safe a brilliant red crystal, brought it >over to a platinoid housing and carefully slid it into place. >"Lorandite — brought out of Macedonia before the Balkan Wars, pure >thallium arsenosulfide, purer quality than you can find anymore." > >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lorandite >* Lorandite is a thallium arsenic sulfosalt with formula: TlAsS2. It >was first discovered at Alshar, Republic of Macedonia in 1894 and >named after Loránd Eötvös, physicist at the University of Budapest. >The lorandite is thought to have the potential to unravel the so- >called "neutrino puzzle." By serving as a geochemical detector of the >neuron, the lorandite could validate or disprove the theory of the >standard solar system, say physicists. In simple terms—it would let >us understand the work of the Sun. > >http://tw.strahlen.org/fotoatlas1/lorandite_foto.html > > > >* Thallium - a form of poison > >http://drnickonline.blogspot.com/2006/11/thallium-poisoning- >everything-russian.html > > > >* Iron arsenosulfide is the most common ore of arsenic. It is found >in Mexico (Mapimí), Sweden (Tunaberg) and the U.S. (Montana). > >According to Risto Karajkov writing in "World Press": > > > >** > >Moving pictures: > >"They bring the still life to action - then many others of American >lives unquestionably in motion - effect was of a small city in frames > >He was on a mission to set free the images not just the photographs >but also of all that came his way - prince who with his kiss releases >that Sleeping Beauty into wakefulness. > >******************** > >Page 1038 >"old gaffers" >A gaffer in the motion picture industry is the head of the electrical >department, responsible for the execution (and sometimes the design) >of the lighting plan for a production. In British English the term >gaffer is long established as meaning an old man, or the foreman of a >squad of workmen. (In U.S. English, similarly, "Pappy" is a nickname >for the leader of such a group—like Pappy Hod in V..) > >The term was also used to describe men who adjusted lighting in >English theatre and men who tended street lamps, after the "gaff" >they used, a pole with a hook on its end [7]. > >One seller of gaffer's tape (used in theater and film) says the >"gaff" story is incorrect, but it isn't clear this is correct, >because long poles called "hi-tech focusing aids" are definitely >still used in theater. > >The "old man" meaning comes from a dialectal pronunciation of >"grandfather." Roswell and Merle are gaffers (old men / >electricians/old men). > > >****** >Bekah >and over to Mark - > > > > > > > From kelber at mindspring.com Sun Jul 20 19:25:06 2008 From: kelber at mindspring.com (kelber at mindspring.com) Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2008 20:25:06 -0400 (GMT-04:00) Subject: AtD (37) pp.1040 ff. Thoughts on Lew Basnight, detective. Message-ID: <32402051.1216599907547.JavaMail.root@elwamui-wigeon.atl.sa.earthlink.net> At this point, we're in LA in the film era. This segment feels different than the other Lew Basnight segments. The others my have been in the Detective Fiction genre, but this one's solidly in the film noir genre (by way of Hammett's and Channdler's crime fiction). Laura -----Original Message----- >From: Mark Kohut >Sent: Jul 20, 2008 10:40 AM >To: robinlandseadel at comcast.net >Cc: pynchon -l >Subject: Re: AtD (37) pp.1040 ff. Thoughts on Lew Basnight, detective. > >I vote for more Lew Archer resonances in Lew [!] Basnight than the others, >although of course, all of them resonate ala Pynchon's shimmering, layered way. > >Lew Archer because of 1) the name 2) the 'sensitive' detective 3) his mystery solutions are Freudian family dramas, Oedipal in many instances. >4) Very hot--reviewed on front page on NY Times by Eudora Welty when OBA >was inhaling many of his intellectual sources. > > >--- On Sun, 7/20/08, robinlandseadel at comcast.net wrote: > >> From: robinlandseadel at comcast.net >> Subject: Re: AtD (37) pp.1040 ff. Thoughts on Lew Basnight, detective. >> To: "P-list" >> Date: Sunday, July 20, 2008, 10:12 AM >> Against the Day is a meta-fiction, a fiction concerned with >> fictions. >> There are many parodies of genres that first saw the light >> of day >> in the era of Against the Day. The Crime Novel or Mystery >> is a >> genre that blossomed during the era of Against the Day, >> Sherlock >> Holmes being but the most obvious example. Dashiell >> Hammett, >> an ex-Pinkerton, is more of the Hard-boiled Dick found in >> the >> States and closer to the mark for Lew. And of course, >> don't >> forget the previously cited Lew Archer: >> >> Profile >> >> Initially, Lew Archer was similar to (if not >> completely derivative >> of) Philip Marlowe. However, he eventually broke >> from that >> mold, though some similarities remain. >> Archer's principal >> difference is that he is much more openly >> sensitive and >> empathetic than the tough Marlowe. He also serves >> a >> different function than Marlowe. Raymond >> Chandler's books >> were studies of Marlowe's character and code >> of honor, while >> Macdonald used Archer as a lens to explore the >> relationships of >> the other characters in the novels. >> >> Archer's name is an homage to Dashiell >> Hammett: "Miles >> Archer" was the name of Sam Spade's >> murdered partner in >> The Maltese Falcon. >> >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lew_Archer >> >> I keep turning back to The Crying of Lot 49 as something of >> a coda >> for Against the Day, Oedipa looking backwards at the >> detritus of a >> scene that manages to continue in darkness, a scene >> displayed >> in full daylight in AtD. Raymond Chandler's sense of >> place and the crude >> mechanics of local political power infuse The Crying of Lot >> 49. In AtD the >> character of Lew ties together the central thread of the >> story---Scarsdale >> Vibe's "hit" on Webb and the family's >> response to to Webb's execution. >> The loose ends of that story are all tied up thanks to some >> smooth >> teamwork between the psychic detective and the alchemical >> photographer. > > > From markekohut at yahoo.com Sun Jul 20 19:39:08 2008 From: markekohut at yahoo.com (Mark Kohut) Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2008 17:39:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: AtD (37) p.1043 "the ole RJ, earthquake, Santa Barbara, right angles of History Message-ID: <550336.27923.qm@web38405.mail.mud.yahoo.com> P. 1043 Royal Jacaranda: http://www.pensandcalls.com/id144.htm............. Earthquake, June 29, 1925: http://projects.crustal.ucsb.edu/sb_eqs/1925/1925.html that 'stucco and beam philosophy" of architecture--see the link for Official name, Mission style, lead to Santa Barbara's rep as a great tourist center. "relentlessly unacknowledged past" [of Santa Barbara]: "Santa Barbara became the winter destination for the titans of post-Civil War America. Private railroad cars clustered on the sidings at Santa Barbara. The Potter Hotel overlooking Santa Barbara's West Beach was a world renowned resort. Owners of industry visited Santa Barbara and chose Santa Barbara hillside locations for their grand estates." wikipedia "right-angled piece of local coastline" [check it out on a map. I had no idea] Right angles are one of Pynchon's tropes in AtD that link--and lead-- to the "rationalization" [ala Weber] of modernity and, yes, death. Related to Cartesian grids and linear thought. See the first important use on page 10. "that unshaped freedom being rationalized...into straight lines and right angles...that lead to the killing floor". There are other instances. (anyone remember any?). (There is a 'safe right-angle" use in GR, I relearn) There is a very important use coming up that puts an Icelandic Spar ending on AtD, if I am seeing clearly. Next sentence is a deep clue, somehow, I think, to this meaning: 'This angle was the worst of all possible aspects....condemning to "endless cycles of greed and betrayal"'.........Such an angle, such 'rationalization' is modern Western History? Here is the cycle motif, mostly in the historical senses (not the Jungian nor Buddhist) as a philosophy of History, I suggest. From dpayne1912 at hotmail.com Sun Jul 20 23:44:17 2008 From: dpayne1912 at hotmail.com (David Payne) Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2008 04:44:17 +0000 Subject: Atd (37) p. 1041. Erie Line, 'home', Lincolnwood, fascism and a pink tab In-Reply-To: <072020081834.9216.4883851B00056064000024002216554886040A0B0E0A9C0B020E0402070D019D@comcast.net> References: <072020081834.9216.4883851B00056064000024002216554886040A0B0E0A9C0B020E0402070D019D@comcast.net> Message-ID: On , Sun, 20 Jul 2008 (18:34:03 +0000), Robin (robinlandseadel at comcast.net) wrote: > *"Indeed, when annotating Gravity's Rainbow, one of my greatest surprises > came with the discovery that details of story reveal a narrative > chronometrics that can be concisely plotted. I mean detail of the most > unobtrusive sort: images of the moon, remarks about weather, movies > playing at London theaters, a song playing over the radio, references to > BBC programs and newspaper headlines and saints' days. Many of > these were available to Pynchon through one of his main sources, the > Times of London. . . ." > Steven C. Weisenburger: "A Gravity's Rainbow Companion, page 9. If you haven't read Foreman’s “Historical Documents Relating to Mason & Dixon” (2005), you should. _________________________________________________________________ Keep your kids safer online with Windows Live Family Safety. http://www.windowslive.com/family_safety/overview.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_family_safety_072008 From isread at btinternet.com Mon Jul 21 01:09:53 2008 From: isread at btinternet.com (Paul Nightingale) Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2008 07:09:53 +0100 Subject: Atdtda28: There may not be a 'mission' anymore, 786-787 Message-ID: <000001c8eaf8$647705d0$2d651170$@com> Prance continues to offer the voice of authority, explaining Ssagan's departure and then borbanngadyr. A transition takes place with Prance's subsequent embarrassment. He has decided to stay, presumably when Kit moves on alone, and insists "[t]his is the heart of Earth". Kit's response ("all's I see's a bunch of sheep") might or might not be taken as argumentative; and then he offers "that time back in the woods" as elaboration of "our differences". At the beginning of 55.8 Prance has just been shot at, again (783); here, we discover that Kit, accidentally or otherwise has shot at him (786). The earlier passage suggests that locals think Prance a Japanese spy; there is no indication there of Kit's involvement in shooting incidents, so we might infer other disagreements. Or "differences": the term used here is significant, given that the double act is one that builds character on reaction and a conflict over readings. Until, as the section concludes, and with it the relationship between Kit and Prance: for once the dialogue exchange is one that features complementary statements as they discuss parting (787). The writing of character-as-traveller here perhaps echoes Mason/Dixon, as does the subsequent reference to those to whom the traveller must report back. That Kit/Prance are out in the middle of nowhere ("another part of the taiga" on 782; "a strangely tranquil part of Siberia" on 786) is confirmed by the shadow of imperialism: what should happen ("[o]rdinarily", 787) is that a report would have to be written, one that normalised relations between metropolitan centre and wherever influence extended. The traveller-as-tourist? From isread at btinternet.com Mon Jul 21 02:00:08 2008 From: isread at btinternet.com (Paul Nightingale) Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2008 08:00:08 +0100 Subject: Atdtda28: Guardian deities, 787 Message-ID: <000101c8eaff$69c3d160$3d4b7420$@com> >From Prance's pov the Chums appear as "animated youngsters". The first time Randolph ventures away from the Inconvenience to visit Nate Privett, the "young lady typewriter" refers to him as "sonny" and "kid" (24). A realist reading might well insist that 'fifteen years' have 'passed' since the novel opened. Prance himself has been described as "young" (783); and here Darby refers to him as "Kid ..." (787). What we are offered here are first impressions; and Prance automatically assumes the Chums might be "guardian deities" (787). They in turn are said to "[regard] him with great curiosity": this is a reading of them from his pov, one that Darby's response will then go some way to undermine. Earlier sections in this chapter introduced us to the crew of the Bol'shaia Igra (779-782); such writing necessarily drew attention to the Russian airship's similarities/differences to the Inconvenience. Having recalled the Chums, then, the narrative produces them; they replace both the Russians and, for Prance himself, Kit. Prance continues to speak as an authority ("According to the classical Tibetan sources ...", 787). The previous section draws attention to "that time back in the woods there" (786); and here we find "Darby looking around in some distraction, as if for a firearm" (787). From ottosell at googlemail.com Mon Jul 21 03:58:13 2008 From: ottosell at googlemail.com (Otto) Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2008 10:58:13 +0200 Subject: EST Message-ID: Esbjörn Svensson Trio - Dodge the Dodo(Live)(Part 1/2) http://de.youtube.com/watch?v=iB9mjSrdyl8 part 2: http://de.youtube.com/watch?v=SbL5qCVrbCE From ottosell at googlemail.com Mon Jul 21 04:14:29 2008 From: ottosell at googlemail.com (Otto) Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2008 11:14:29 +0200 Subject: Trek, Zone, Peaks In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Is it only open to US-viewers? "This content is currently unavailable." 2008/7/20, Dave Monroe : > http://www.cbs.com/classics/star_trek/ > > http://www.cbs.com/classics/the_twilight_zone/ > > http://www.cbs.com/classics/twin_peaks/ > From against.the.dave at gmail.com Mon Jul 21 04:17:55 2008 From: against.the.dave at gmail.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2008 04:17:55 -0500 Subject: Trek, Zone, Peaks In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Jul 21, 2008 at 4:14 AM, Otto wrote: > Is it only open to US-viewers? > > "This content is currently unavailable." Seeing as we were just poking around the various series there (see also MacGyver, The Love Boat, Have Gun Will Travel, Hawaii 5-0, et al.), that may unfortunately be the case. Anywone know if thre's any way around that? To be an online virtual American? If I can help ... From against.the.dave at gmail.com Mon Jul 21 05:15:20 2008 From: against.the.dave at gmail.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2008 05:15:20 -0500 Subject: Fast Learner Message-ID: Herman, Luc. Krafft, John M. Fast Learner: The Typescript of Pynchon's V. at the Harry Ransom Center in Austin Texas Studies in Literature and Language - Volume 49, Number 1, Spring 2007, pp. 1-20 http://muse.jhu.edu/login?uri=/journals/texas_studies_in_literature_and_language/v049/49.1herman.html A corrected typescript of V., the first novel of Thomas Pynchon (b. 1937), containing one hundred excised pages, is accompanied by eight rare personal letters from a young Pynchon to two close friends in the 1960s. The archive also contains early notes, outlines, and drafts for an unproduced musical, "Minstrel Island," on which Pynchon and J. Kirkpatrick Sale collaborated in the spring of 1958. http://www.hrc.utexas.edu/collections/guide/literature/ From robinlandseadel at comcast.net Mon Jul 21 05:17:43 2008 From: robinlandseadel at comcast.net (robinlandseadel at comcast.net) Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2008 10:17:43 +0000 Subject: Atd (37) p. 1041. Erie Line, 'home', Lincolnwood, fascism and a pink tab Message-ID: <072120081017.29783.4884624700094C35000074572215575114040A0B0E0A9C0B020E0402070D019D@comcast.net> David Payne: If you haven't read Foreman�s �Historical Documents Relating to Mason & Dixon� (2005), you should. I'd love to, but access is limited---how do people get away with these insane prices for "Pynchon Industry" books anyway? My own little excursions traversing the web delivered "The Diary of William Pynchon of Salem: A Picture of Salem Life, Social and ... " by William Pynchon, born some generations later than the William Pynchon/Slothrop of Meritorious Price/On Preterition fame. http://tinyurl.com/6a5x2j Jumping into William Pynchon [of Salem]'s diary, one clearly scryes a primary source of inspiration for Mason & Dixon. George M. Pynchon's Meritorious exploits as Captain of the Istalena are set down in the lead sporting articles that the New York Times published during the years explored in Against the Day. These puff- pieces left their mark on Against the Day. The voice of the narrator of the Chums of Chance episodes shares a number of narratorial quirks with the NYT authors/editors. The adventures of Pynch-co. are in the background nearly constantly in Against the Day�this is notable in the particular focus on the sorts of holdings Pynchon & Company invested in: Electric Lights, Railways, Radio, Sound on Film and other technologically driven enterprises. All these things left their mark on the writing much as the Times of London left its mark on Gravity's Rainbow. http://tinyurl.com/6cdadk From against.the.dave at gmail.com Mon Jul 21 05:23:10 2008 From: against.the.dave at gmail.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2008 05:23:10 -0500 Subject: For the Love of Big Brother Message-ID: BOOKS By Jim Knipfel For the Love of Big Brother Orwell turns 100. In the wake of WWII, George Orwell is said to have handed over the names of several potential communist sympathizers to the British government. This dirty little secret, first revealed several years ago, raised a bit of a shitstorm in certain intellectual circles. How could a man whose work condemned such behavior in no uncertain terms have become such a willing tool? In his introduction to John Reed's anti-Orwell Animal Farm satire, Snowball's Chance, Alexander Cockburn argued that Orwell had been not only a rat, but a fascist at heart. In Why Orwell Matters, Christopher Hitchens rejected such claims, saying that Orwell was an adamant anti-Stalinist and hated totalitarianism in any form. (The controversy was covered in some detail by John Strausbaugh in these pages last year.) Be all that as it may, there's not going to be any getting rid of Orwell, rat or not, anytime soon, nor should there be. No matter how many dozens of articles argue this way or that in the political magazines, nothing is going to change the fact that George Orwell (who would have turned 100 this year) has become a solid and unshakeable part of the culture, primarily on the virtues of two little books: his cautionary fable, Animal Farm, and his grim masterpiece of quiet personal rebellion, 1984. The latter especially, the strength and significance of which has been driven home all too well these past 20 months, as the march toward "homeland security" has left headline writers scrambling for references that aren't in some fashion Orwellian. I'm assuming that we're all familiar enough with at least the gist of the book. That in itself creates an interesting problem for publishers who are trying to sell yet another edition of Orwell's dusty dystopian classic. Apart from junior high kids who are going to be forced to read it, how do you get regular folks to pick it up? How to make a book that has become so cliche seem fresh and interesting again? And how do you sell a new edition when there are already a dozen editions of the book on the shelves (and online)? Well, first thing the folks at Plume did was repackage a beautiful "new" edition, which reproduces the original 1949 cover art and flap copy ("Though the story of Nineteen Eighty-Four takes place thirty-five years hence..."). Another way to catch people's attention, the editors figured, is to commission a new foreword by someone who might have some special, unique insight into what Orwell envisioned. For the centennial edition of Animal Farm, for instance (which received a similar repackaging), they hired Ann Patchett, author of Bel Canto and The Magician's Assistant. But who would be right for 1984? Someone, maybe, who might feel a special bond with Winston Smith. Or O'Brien or Goldstein or Big Brother himself. Even Tillotson (you never hear enough about him). If it turns out to be an author who writes like no one ever has before—or ever will—then you've got a double bonus. People will pick up the dusty old novel not for the dusty old novel, but for the secret prize hidden inside, like the toy balloon gondolas and plastic cavemen that used to lie buried at the bottom of boxes of Fruity Pebbles. I never liked Fruity Pebbles much, but those gondolas were the best. Plume couldn't have done better than to snag Thomas Pynchon. While we all, in some way, have a stake in the implications of Orwell's novel, I have to believe that Mr. Pynchon's stake is a bit bigger. Much as Orwell "foresaw" a world of electronic surveillance, falsified history and sham wars, Pynchon's own writings (intentionally or not) have had a prescient quality of their own, envisioning everything from the internet to the convergence of computer technology, artificial intelligence and genetic research, which he presaged in his 1984 essay, "Is It O.K. to be a Luddite?". Pynchon is also, it goes without saying, well-versed in the mechanics of paranoia and conspiracy. Here, in his first extended bit of published writing since his introduction to Jim Dodge's 1997 novel Stone Junction (an essay which also had quite a bit to say on matters Orwellian), Pynchon employs a language that's simple and straightforward, yet plays with ideas that are (unsurprisingly) subtle. In the end, he's produced the most insightful—and playful—analysis of the novel I've ever read. Pynchon weaves elements of Orwell's biography together with various political and historical events of his day (and our own) to explain not only what's going on in 1984, but why, and where it came from. At the same time, he deals with the above-mentioned "snitch" controversy (without saying as much), dismisses other controversies (like recent claims that Orwell was an anti-Semite) and demolishes several overly simplistic readings of the novel. 1984, he explains, is much more than a point-by-point critique of Stalinism. Sure, Big Brother is clearly Stalin and Goldstein clearly Trotsky, but beyond and beneath that it's a reflection of Orwell's own unease concerning the political moves being made by the Allied nations in the aftermath of WWII. He also derides (but with good humor) those who would read 1984 as a collection of "predictions" about the world in which we're living. There's a difference, Pynchon writes, between prediction and prophecy, and Orwell wasn't making predictions so much as he was looking deeper into the human soul and projecting where the behavior he was witnessing in the seats of power would lead us, should it continue unchecked. He does pause briefly at a couple of points to draw parallels between 1984 and 2003—the use of doublethink by modern-day politicians and media outlets, for instance. He even brings up parallels which aren't usually brought up: the similarity between Oceania's Ministries and our own Department of Defense (which wages war) and Department of Justice (which regularly stomps on human and constitutional rights). Early in the essay, he even hints (again without saying as much) at the events of September 2001 and the effect such events usually have on the political outlook of a nation. An attack on one's own homeland can suddenly transform peace activists into dangerous subversives in the minds of most citizens. It was something Orwell witnessed during the Blitz, and something we've witnessed over the past year and a half. As with most everything he writes, Mr. Pynchon's essay flows easily through a remarkable range of topics—technology, historical precedent, Orwell's situation and our own, the cuts the Book of the Month Club wanted to make before releasing the novel, various characters and the roles they play—and how fictional characters can develop the nasty habit of doing things the novelist himself never expected. He even hints in the closing paragraphs that 1984 ends on a note perhaps a bit brighter than most of us realize. As always, it's a delightful little ride and, all told, it's less an introduction to the novel than it is a commentary written for readers already well familiar with it. That's an important thing. Because the real reason to pick up 1984 and read it (or reread it) now has nothing to do with any parallels to our own time, or any big smarty-pants controversy. The real reason to read the novel is because it's such a fucking great novel. I hadn't read it in over two decades (it was one of my favorites as a kid). Going back to it now (admittedly via audiotape), I was astonished at the savage clarity of Orwell's prose, his brilliant language-play, his eye for necessary detail, the depth and complexity of his characters and, above all, his skills as a storyteller. When most people think of 1984 nowadays, they're thinking less of the novel itself than what the novel has come to signify. Forget political allegory and historical parallels for a moment (though those are certainly unavoidable, like trying to watch the 1964 version of The Killers without thinking of Reagan as president). Instead, try reading it as a great, exciting and profoundly sad story—and one of the most compelling novels of the modern era. 1984 (Centennial Edition) By George Orwell Foreword by Thomas Pynchon, Afterword by Erich Fromm Plume, 368 pages, $14 http://www.nypress.com/16/19/books/books.cfm How to get a blurb from Thomas Pynchon http://www.salon.com/books/log/1999/10/15/pynchon_blurb/ Endorsements http://www.themodernword.com/pynchon/pynchon_essays_blurbs.html From against.the.dave at gmail.com Mon Jul 21 05:26:14 2008 From: against.the.dave at gmail.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2008 05:26:14 -0500 Subject: Pynchon brings added currency to 'Nineteen Eighty-Four' Message-ID: Pynchon brings added currency to 'Nineteen Eighty-Four' David Kipen, Chronicle Book Critic Saturday, May 3, 2003 Nineteen Eighty-Four By George Orwell; foreword by Thomas Pynchon PLUME; 339 PAGES; $14 PAPERBACK Superlatives may get people's attention, but they don't do much to reward it. So if one were to hazard, for example, that novelist Thomas Pynchon's foreword to the new Plume edition of "Nineteen Eighty-Four" just happens to be the finest, deepest, sanest new 20 pages around, the case might yet remain something shy of closed. In the wake of such praise, good questions for a skeptic to ask might include "Compared to what?" "Says who?" and, hardest of all to nail down, "Why?" Answers to the first two boil down to "You name it" and "Who do you think?" But trying to explain why a piece of writing wipes the floor with just about anything else published this year is, necessarily, trickier. Pynchon's foreword expertly re-creates the atmosphere surrounding the composition and reception of "Nineteen Eighty-Four," but any gifted literary historian might have managed that. He articulates an unsentimental humanism relevant to developing events, but an uncommonly perceptive political essayist might have done the same. Where Pynchon doesn't just outpace but laps the rest of the field is in his incomparably supple style. Modulating down the ages from the 18th century baroque of "Mason & Dixon" to the 1940s bebop of "Gravity's Rainbow" to "Vineland's" breathless Deadhead riffs, Pynchon's underlying verbal music stays ever recognizable, unique as a great reed player's embouchure. For the "Nineteen Eighty-Four" intro, Pynchon returns to his signature nonfiction voice: postdoctoral yet cheerfully sophomoric, sad yet undespairing, as expressive in its alternation of long notes with short as an SOS. It's an instrument tuned and retuned in more than 40 years of occasional essays, reviews and liner notes -- forming, incidentally, one of the great uncollected anthologies in American letters. Here's a snatch of the "Nineteen Eighty-Four" introduction, picked less for its considerable power than for the way Pynchon, four of whose six books are historical novels, relates Orwell's anxious age to our own: 'THE WILL TO FASCISM' "Orwell in 1948 understood that despite the Axis defeat, the will to fascism had not gone away, that far from having seen its day it had perhaps not yet even come into its own -- the corruption of spirit, the irresistible human addiction to power, were already long in place, all well-known aspects of the Third Reich and Stalin's U.S.S.R., even the British Labour party -- like first drafts of a terrible future. What could prevent the same thing from happening to Britain and the United States? Moral superiority? Good intentions? Clean living?" This isn't quite Pynchon at his best. In a sentence that begins in 1948, does Hitler really belong on a list of fascist regimes "long in place"? And do those two dashes signal interruption and resumption, or merely consecutive interruptions? Always a question. But the passage swings like crazy, and it introduces the familiar Pynchon theme that may, together with his love of individual liberty and his wariness of transnational corporations, speak most urgently to our time. It's what he calls here "the will to fascism," the eternal willingness of Orwell's proles and Pynchon's beloved, sheepish schlemihls to scoot over and leave the driving to Daddy. Fascism's hypnotic fascination also crops up in Pynchon's great California novel "Vineland," whose heroine Frenesi's social conscience is forever at war with her weakness for men in uniform -- her literal love for Big Brother. Some bushy-tailed editor at Plume must have known "Vineland" awfully well to hope they could solicit Pynchon's intro and get a yes, as that novel represents about the only place in Pynchon's entire back catalog where he even hints at his debt to Orwell. Pynchon set "Vineland" in the year 1984, but that isn't the half of it. He also used such Orwellian imagery as a nightmare television that announces, "From now on, I'm watching you," and a series of regular roadside busts whose eyes follow anyone driving by -- recalling the Big Brother posters in the stairwell on the first page of "Nineteen Eighty-Four." More than any incidental and possibly unconscious allusions, though, what links Pynchon with Orwell is the quality of being what Orwell called, in his 1939 essay on Dickens, "generously angry." (By the way, Michael Krasny's "Forum" book club 'takes up "Vineland" at 10 a.m. May 26 on KQED.) But the idea behind the Plume introduction was presumably for Pynchon to illuminate Orwell, not the other way around. Luckily, it works both ways. Pynchon has taken a book few Americans get out of high school without at least pretending to have understood and found something genuinely fresh in it. For instance, maybe most importantly, Pynchon's essay uses "Nineteen Eighty- Four's" almost always skipped Appendix, "The Principles of Newspeak," to reverse-engineer a crack of daylight into Orwell's hitherto unforgiving midnight of an ending. A THING OF THE PAST? Pynchon maintains that, "from its first sentence, 'The Principles of Newspeak' is written consistently in the past tense, as if to suggest some later piece of history, post-1984, in which Newspeak has become literally a thing of the past. . . . In its hints of restoration and redemption, perhaps 'The Principles of Newspeak' serves as a way to brighten an otherwise bleakly pessimistic ending -- sending us back out into the streets of our own dystopia whistling a slightly happier tune than the end of the story by itself would have warranted." According to Pynchon's secondary research, Orwell risked 40,000 British pounds to keep this supposedly vestigial appendix, which the Book-of-the-Month Club found anti-climactic, right where it was -- and is. Thanks to Pynchon's close reading of other Orwelliana, and of Michael Shelden's 1991 authorized biography -- an interesting if unsurprising choice, considering the famously private Pynchon's dubiousness about unauthorized digging -- this new introduction to "Nineteen Eighty-Four" ultimately lets readers eavesdrop on some glorious, death-defying shoptalk between two of the 20th century's greatest writers. Once in a great while, only superlatives will do. E-mail David Kipen at dkipen at sfchronicle.com. http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2003/05/03/DD302378.DTL From richardryannyc at yahoo.com Mon Jul 21 05:29:50 2008 From: richardryannyc at yahoo.com (Richard Ryan) Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2008 03:29:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Trek, Zone, Peaks In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <2659.57074.qm@web50701.mail.re2.yahoo.com> If the CBS site is doing IP address detection, which most big media sites are in fact doing these days, then I believe Otto would have to come in through some sort of proxy or VPN which is exposing a US-assigned IP address to the sites being browsed. --- On Mon, 7/21/08, Dave Monroe wrote: > From: Dave Monroe > Subject: Re: Trek, Zone, Peaks > To: "Otto" > Cc: "pynchon -l" > Date: Monday, July 21, 2008, 5:17 AM > On Mon, Jul 21, 2008 at 4:14 AM, Otto > wrote: > > > Is it only open to US-viewers? > > > > "This content is currently unavailable." > > Seeing as we were just poking around the various series > there (see > also MacGyver, The Love Boat, Have Gun Will Travel, Hawaii > 5-0, et > al.), that may unfortunately be the case. Anywone know if > thre's any > way around that? To be an online virtual American? If I > can help ... From markekohut at yahoo.com Mon Jul 21 06:17:22 2008 From: markekohut at yahoo.com (Mark Kohut) Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2008 04:17:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: AtD (37) p.1043 cont. Scylla and Charybdis, worse than ever, face cream and hop Message-ID: <588398.72752.qm@web38402.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Scylla, the Astrologer: Scylla (pronounced /ˈsɪlə/), or Skylla (Greek: Σκύλλα) was one of the two monsters in Greek mythology (the other being Charybdis) that lived on either side of a narrow channel of water. The two sides of the strait were within an arrow's range of each other - so close that sailors attempting to avoid Charybdis would pass too close to Scylla and vice versa. The phrase between Scylla and Charybdis has come to mean being in a state where one is between two dangers and moving away from one will cause you to be in danger from the other. wikipedia I might speculate that the cycles of History are bounded by one or the other?? The next line about the RC makes me smile (but with sadness at TRPs vision here)...The RC--see the endless cycle motif--is worse than ever-- under new management, natch. Of course, there would be only an empty jar of face cream for such as Ms. Maraca......... .50 cent in 1925 = about $6.00 tip today. (see inflation calculator). hop = marijuana From markekohut at yahoo.com Mon Jul 21 06:34:37 2008 From: markekohut at yahoo.com (Mark Kohut) Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2008 04:34:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: AtD (37) p. 1045, toilet scrying, ???, 'many bodies'. Message-ID: <862818.18818.qm@web38406.mail.mud.yahoo.com> P. 1044 hophead, used by the police and trusted by Lew, reads TOILET BOWLS!....Cf. Slothrop's trip down the toilet in GR. Cf. clues in the human 'waste', so to speak. Cf. N.O. Brown on money as shit in Life Against Death. (I just read a mystery in which there was another hophead with astonishing talent used by the police. A mystery novel stereotype Pynchon uses, I guess) Bad atmosphere. Emilio needs the mirrors covered? [see N. West on masques as Southern California?] Mirrors pervade TRPs work. What meaning here? "They're like fleas".."it stays focussed"..WTF? Mirrors distract him? Can't focus easily? Because of pot? ...to see WHAT that are like fleas?...??? Little bits of the past? fragments of images of time past? bits of 'time shrapnel"?... Many bodies...bad, bad visions. From against.the.dave at gmail.com Mon Jul 21 06:43:46 2008 From: against.the.dave at gmail.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2008 06:43:46 -0500 Subject: AtD (37) p. 1045, toilet scrying, ???, 'many bodies'. In-Reply-To: <862818.18818.qm@web38406.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <862818.18818.qm@web38406.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Jul 21, 2008 at 6:34 AM, Mark Kohut wrote: > Mirrors pervade TRPs work. What meaning here? Bilocation? >"They're like fleas".."it stays focussed"..WTF? > > Mirrors distract him? Can't focus easily? Because of pot? ...to see WHAT that are like fleas?...??? Little bits of the past? fragments of images of time past? bits of 'time shrapnel"?... I'm not sure now either whether to read that as some sort of drug use symptom, a sensation, say, like fleas on one's skin, or to read the mirrors as like fleas ... From against.the.dave at gmail.com Mon Jul 21 06:58:47 2008 From: against.the.dave at gmail.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2008 06:58:47 -0500 Subject: AtD (37) pp.1040 ff. Thoughts on Lew Basnight, detective. In-Reply-To: <439279.70979.qm@web38406.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <072020081412.18737.488347CA0008A4C0000049312215553894040A0B0E0A9C0B020E0402070D019D@comcast.net> <439279.70979.qm@web38406.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Jul 20, 2008 at 9:40 AM, Mark Kohut wrote: > Lew [!] Basnight I still can't help but read this as "Lube-ass knight." I can't recall, did we put the usual trace on that name? Which reminds me ... http://www.surnameweb.org/Basnight/surnames.htm This, by the way, seems interesting, at least ... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Wikipedia_sockpuppets_of_Its_Pytch.._Hon From against.the.dave at gmail.com Mon Jul 21 07:02:13 2008 From: against.the.dave at gmail.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2008 07:02:13 -0500 Subject: Basnight in Twilight Message-ID: Tuesday, November 13, 2007 Basnight in Twilight But here seemed to be those old bilocational powers emerging now once again, only different. (pp. 1040-1062) It is 1925, and Lew Basnight, after spending the war in England has, like all good private eyes nearing retirement age, ended up in Los Angeles. He has a staff of three mighty fit young ladies, Thetis, Shalimar, and Mezzanine, handy with firearms, enough rich clients with messy lives needing cleaning, and some mysterious overseas income, so that he is doing quite well for himself. As our penultimate episode opens, a black jazz musician, Chester LeStreet, tells Lew he's been sent by Tony Tsangarakis, a club owner and gangster, to ask him to investigate the possible reappearance of a party girl named Encarnacion, who was supposed to have been murdered some time before. This word has come via a phone call from Santa Barbara made by one Miss Jardine Maraca, Encarnacion's old roommate. Lew traces Miss Maraca to a shabby motor court on the Pacific Coast Highway, from which she has departed. Finding no clues in her empty room, Lew calls Emilio, a Filipino dope peddler and psychic living nearby, to come give the place, specifically the toilet bowl, a look. Emilio, appalled by his visions, gives Lew a Los Angeles address that appears to him, and demands his fee right then, in cash. Back at the office, Lew learns that Merle Rideout has been calling every ten minutes to speak to him. Finally getting him on the line, Merle asks Lew to meet him at a picnic ground. Merle has been in L.A. for over a decade, running into Luca Zombini, now a designer of movie special effects, in early 1914. He visits the always interesting Zombini household and comes to some affectionate resolution with Erlys. The Zombinis become what family Merle has. At the picnic park, Merle has Lew take steps to shake anyone tailing him, directing him to meet his partner Roswell Bounce at the other end of the park. The three of them proceed to the inventors' lab. Rideout and Bounce (heh) have invented a sort of viewing process which accesses the mysterious capabilities of silver to bring photographs to life, making them not only windows of the future, and the past of their subjects, but, depending on the settings, viewers of alternate futures as well. The scientists think the studios are out to steal the process and ask Lew for protection. Testing their invention, Lew gets them to scan a photo of Jardine Maraca, and watches as she drives to a place called Carefree Court. When Lew finally checks out the address Emilio gave him, he finds a bungalow, and, behind its screen door, the malevolently beautiful, and haunted looking, Mrs. Deuce Kindred. Noting Lew's obvious arousal, the very willing Lake invites him in. Oh this was going to be sordid as all hell, thinks Lew, and boy is he right. Afterwards, while Lew is chatting with Lake about Encarnacion's case over coffee in the kitchen, Deuce enters, a mean runt packing heat, a labor-busting goon for a low-rent movie studio. Deuce does not care, like at all, about what Lew and Lake have been up to, but objects heatedly to Lew's mocking questions about what he does, and finally pulls his gun. Luckily, Lew had earlier told Shalimar to back him up. She enters with a machine gun and Deuce ducks out. The next three pages are sketched out of the miserable dream lives of Lake and Deuce, two pathetic people who've used each other for years merely to escape the consequences of any human feelings. A day or two later, Lew goes to Carefree Court, where he crashes a party. Everyone there has been, over the years, at war, or at least at odds, with the many forces of authority, but seem pretty chipper about it all. Lew meets Virgil Maraca, who reminds him of the Hermit tarot card, and his daughter Jardine, who reminds Lew of his lost wife, Troth. Jardine tells Lew that Encarnacion's case is closed, that she returned (from the dead?) only long enough to testify against Deuce, whom the cops have picked up for a string of grizzly murders of women. Though she makes plans for Lew to take her out of town, Jardine decides instead to steal an airplane, and flies away over the desert. Lew goes to Merle with a photo of Troth taken in 1890 and asks to see her grow old. Doing so, he falls into a reverie of the irrecoverable past, wondering if she can see him too. Merle, perhaps inspired by this, uses a picture of Dally he took in Colorado when she was 12, to find her now in Paris, where she, sitting in a tiny studio, now appears to return his gaze, smiles at him, saying something. http://chumpsofchoice.blogspot.com/2007/11/basnight-in-twilight.html From against.the.dave at gmail.com Mon Jul 21 07:22:02 2008 From: against.the.dave at gmail.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2008 07:22:02 -0500 Subject: AtD (37) p.1042 'movie-themes, emigres, Le Street, Vertex Club' In-Reply-To: <412713.38617.qm@web38408.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <412713.38617.qm@web38408.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Jul 20, 2008 at 3:01 PM, Mark Kohut wrote: > Vertex Club: The vertex is the intersection of two lines of an angle, the zero point on a graph/grid. Recalls the V-Note in V..(which leads me to THIS thought about "V.", the symbol: > Is a major part of its symbolic meaning the way the lines diverge? As History diverged from a 'good zero point'?....I think this cause it would seem that the V-Note and the Vertex Club would be positive places in Pynchon's associations. Where the lines start, so to speak?) Cf. ... "This is America, you live in it, you let it happen. Let it unfurl." (Lot 49, Ch. 6, p. 150) http://waste.org/mail/?list=pynchon-l&month=0108&msg=58984 "... how had it happened here, with chances once so good for diversity?" (Lot 49, Ch. 3, p. 181) http://waste.org/mail/?list=pynchon-l&month=0405&msg=90546 "Could he have been the fork in the road America never took, the singular point she jumped the wrong way from? Suppose the Slothropite heresy had had the time to consolidate and prosper? Might there have been fewer crimes in the name of Jesus, and more mercy in the name of Judas Iscariot? It seems to Tyrone Slothrop that there might be a route back -- maybe that anarchist he met in Zurich was right, maybe for a little while all the fences are down, one road as good as another, the whole space of the Zone cleared, depolarized, and somewhere inside the waste of it a single set of coordinates from which to proceed, without elect, without preterite, without even nationality to fuck it up ..." (GR, Pt. II, p. 556) http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/3928/pns554.html http://waste.org/mail/?list=pynchon-l&month=0706&msg=119655 "Does Brittania, when she sleeps, dream? Is America her dream? [...] serving as a very Rubbish-Tip for subjunctive Hopes, for all that may yet be true." (M&D, Ch. 34, p. 345) http://waste.org/mail/?list=pynchon-l&month=0405&msg=90546 "... unshaped freedom being rationalized into movement only in straight lines and at right angles and a progressive reduction of choices, until the final turn through the final gate that led to the killing-floor." (AtD, Pt. I, Ch. 2, p. 10) http://waste.org/mail/?list=pynchon-l&month=0701&msg=114381 "... these folks down here at least still have a chance--'one that the norteamericanos lost long ago. For you-all, it's way too late anymore." (AtD, Pt. III, p. 643) http://waste.org/mail/?list=pynchon-l&month=0711&msg=123113 I seem to need analogous passages from V., Vineland. Help! Thanks ... From scuffling at gmail.com Mon Jul 21 08:37:34 2008 From: scuffling at gmail.com (Henry) Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2008 09:37:34 -0400 Subject: AtD (37) pp.1040 ff. Thoughts on Lew Basnight, detective. In-Reply-To: <334582.28441.qm@web38406.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <334582.28441.qm@web38406.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <006e01c8eb36$ef780240$ce6806c0$@com> I don't see Lew as a seeker or even a fixer. Detectives are NOT seekers. The "merely" detect, discover things that have been purposely hidden by others. But, in true film noir tradition, Lew is sweethearts with broken-hearts (Bogey, anyone?); a very good guy who moves through, rather than moving the plot, all the while detecting, like a sensitive flame, what is already there. Henry Mu Information, Media, and Technology Consultant http://my.barackobama.com/page/community/blog/henrymu From against.the.dave at gmail.com Mon Jul 21 08:57:03 2008 From: against.the.dave at gmail.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2008 08:57:03 -0500 Subject: AtD (37) p.1042 'movie-themes, emigres, Le Street, Vertex Club' In-Reply-To: References: <412713.38617.qm@web38408.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Jul 21, 2008 at 7:22 AM, Dave Monroe wrote: > On Sun, Jul 20, 2008 at 3:01 PM, Mark Kohut wrote: > >> Vertex Club: The vertex is the intersection of two lines of an angle, the zero point on a graph/grid. Recalls the V-Note in V..(which leads me to THIS thought about "V.", the symbol: >> Is a major part of its symbolic meaning the way the lines diverge? As History diverged from a 'good zero point'?....I think this cause it would seem that the V-Note and the Vertex Club would be positive places in Pynchon's associations. Where the lines start, so to speak?) > > Cf. ... > > http://waste.org/mail/?list=pynchon-l&month=0711&msg=123113 "When you come to a fork in the road, take it." --Yogi Berra http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fork_in_the_road_(metaphor) From markekohut at yahoo.com Mon Jul 21 09:13:28 2008 From: markekohut at yahoo.com (Mark Kohut) Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2008 07:13:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: AtD (37) p.1045 Merle R. appears, old farmland, flirting? Message-ID: <311438.73702.qm@web38408.mail.mud.yahoo.com> P.1045 Merle Rideout, been there a long time and feared he ws turning into a hybrid citrus?? A tree? Planted-like? just a Merle R. witticism? (wikipedia says citrus trees hybridize easily) Why does OBA have Lew and Merle come together here? Merle, photographer and lightning rod salesman in film noir LA? Where Hollywood is happening. Sycamore Grove...Iowa girls...The Grove was mostly farmland then, it seems. Became (or also was) a park. Shalimar, named after a battleship, remember, offers to be Lew's "muscle".Hilarious. flirting with Erlys? for saying she looks the same as always?. Well, the woman seems to be right in these situations, yes? Zombini. Name of a famous magician. From markekohut at yahoo.com Mon Jul 21 09:18:28 2008 From: markekohut at yahoo.com (Mark Kohut) Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2008 07:18:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: AtD (37) pp.1040 ff. Thoughts on Lew Basnight, detective. In-Reply-To: <006e01c8eb36$ef780240$ce6806c0$@com> Message-ID: <754421.36065.qm@web38406.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Ah, so Lew 'detects' some of OBAs deep themes as he moves through the book? Which itself makes a thematic point of playing it as it lays, so to speak, rather than forcing any Pretentious Meanings? TRPs sympathetic protagonists are NOT ego-driven, but receptive to things as they are? --- On Mon, 7/21/08, Henry wrote: > From: Henry > Subject: RE: AtD (37) pp.1040 ff. Thoughts on Lew Basnight, detective. > To: "'Pynchon Liste'" > Date: Monday, July 21, 2008, 9:37 AM > I don't see Lew as a seeker or even a fixer. Detectives > are NOT seekers. > The "merely" detect, discover things that have > been purposely hidden by > others. > > But, in true film noir tradition, Lew is sweethearts with > broken-hearts > (Bogey, anyone?); a very good guy who moves through, rather > than moving the > plot, all the while detecting, like a sensitive flame, what > is already > there. > > Henry Mu > Information, Media, and Technology Consultant > > http://my.barackobama.com/page/community/blog/henrymu From scuffling at gmail.com Mon Jul 21 09:36:38 2008 From: scuffling at gmail.com (Henry) Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2008 10:36:38 -0400 Subject: AtD (37) p.1045 Merle R. appears, old farmland, flirting? In-Reply-To: <311438.73702.qm@web38408.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <311438.73702.qm@web38408.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <007501c8eb3f$2fb4e370$8f1eaa50$@com> For me, Merle and Lew are sweet-ride/base-hearts of AtD. In postmodern tradition, aren't some things plotted, at least in part, to demonstrate authorial skill and will? I made this! Henry Mu Information, Media, and Technology Consultant http://my.barackobama.com/page/community/post/henrymu/gGx7cM -----Original Message----- From: Mark Kohut Why does OBA have Lew and Merle come together here? Merle, photographer and lightning rod salesman in film noir LA? Where Hollywood is happening. From against.the.dave at gmail.com Mon Jul 21 09:41:18 2008 From: against.the.dave at gmail.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2008 09:41:18 -0500 Subject: AtD (37) pp.1040 ff. Thoughts on Lew Basnight, detective. In-Reply-To: <754421.36065.qm@web38406.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <006e01c8eb36$ef780240$ce6806c0$@com> <754421.36065.qm@web38406.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Jul 21, 2008 at 9:18 AM, Mark Kohut wrote: > TRPs sympathetic protagonists are NOT ego-driven, but receptive to things as they are? "Merely train's hardware for any casual onlooker, Waldetar in private life was exactly this mist of philosophy, imagination and continual worry over his several relationships--not only with God, but also with Nita, with their children, with his own history. There's no organized effort about it but there remains a grand joke on all visitors to Baedeker's world: the permanent residents are actually humans in disguise." (V., Ch. 3, p. 78--thanks, Tore!) "'Ev'rywhere they've sent us,-- the Cape, St. Helena, America,-- what's the Element common to all?' "'Long Voyages by Sea,' replies Mason, blinking in Exhaustion by now chronick. 'Was there anything else?' "'Slaves. Ev'ry day at the Cape, we lived with Slavery in our faces,-- more of it at St. Helena,--and now here we are again, in another Colony, this time having drawn them a Line between their Slave-Keepers, and their Wage-Payers, as if doom'd to re-encounter thro' the World this Public Secret, this shameful Core.... Pretending it to be ever somewhere else, with the Turks, the Russians, the Companies, [...] they're murdering and dispossessing thousands untallied, the innocent of the World, passing daily into the Hands of Slaveowners and Torturers, but oh, never in Holland, nor in England, that Garden of Fools...? Christ, Mason.' "'Christ, what? What did I do?' "'Huz. Didn't we take the King's money, as here we'retaking it again? whilst Slaves waited upon us, and we neither one objected, as little a we have here, in certain houses south of the Line,-- Where does it end? No matter where in it we go, shall we find all the World Tyrants and Slaves? America was the one place we shoud not have found them.'" (M&D, Ch. 71, pp. 692-3) >From Pierre-Yves Petillon, "A Re-cognition of Her Errand into the Wilderness," New Essays on The Crying of Lot 49, ed. Patrick O'Donnell (New York: Cambridge UP, 1991), pp. 127-70 ... "As The Crying of Lot 49 nears its end, the Tristero, which has been looming up all along, comes dangerously close to losing the teasing epistemological uncertainty it has retained thus far in the novel. As Oedipa stumbles along a railroad track ... she remembers things she would have seen 'if only she had looked' (179) .... [...] "The Tristero underground has so far been implied to be a motley crew of eccentrics and bohemian drop-outs, an archipelago of 'isolates' having 'withdrawn' from the Republic, a lunatic fringe in tatters. But suddenly, in this last rhetorical leap, the Tristero broadens its scope to include, in a grand, almost liturgical gesture, all the outcasts of American history.... By the end of the novel the Tristero, shadowy as it still remains, is no longer a ghostly underground (perhaps entirely phantasmatic) but a real, 'embattled' underground about to come out of the shadows. No longer hovering on the edge as a cryptic plot, the 'Other' that the Tristero has thus far represented is almost revealed as a version of 'the other America' that Michael Harrington described.... This America is 'the America of poverty,' 'hidden today in a way it never was before,' 'dispossesed,' 'living on the fringes, the margin,' as 'internal exiles.' "Looking back on the novel from the perspective of its finale, it could almost be viewed as a New Deal novel, concerned with gathering back into the American fold a 'third world' previouly excluded...." (pp. 149-50) And from Peter Knight, Conspiracy Culture: From Kennedy to the X-Files (New York: Routledge, 2000), Chapter 1, "Conspiracy/Culture," Section II, "Vineland and Visibility," pp. 57-75 ... "The hidden depths and concelaed realms which might encourage countercultural fantasies of a conspiratorial 'We-system' (as Gravity's Rainbow termed it) have thus all but disappeared in the world of Vineland. Everything has become exposed (to use a film metaphor to which the novel itself is highly attuned) .... On this reading, then, the final failure of the 1960s underground culture comes about not through any of the conspiratorial fantasies of apocalypse which the counterculture predicted, but were left to hide. Everything is visible, and everything is connected, producing a situation in which a routine sense of paranoia is paradoxically both no longer necessary, and more vital than ever." (p. 73) http://waste.org/mail/?list=pynchon-l&month=0208&msg=69706 "'Perhaps its familiarity,' Randolph suggested plaintively, 'rendered it temporarily invisible to you.'" (ATD Pt.I, p. 4) http://waste.org/mail/?list=pynchon-l&month=0701&msg=114275 From paul.mackin at verizon.net Mon Jul 21 12:34:56 2008 From: paul.mackin at verizon.net (Paul Mackin) Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2008 13:34:56 -0400 Subject: AtD (37) p.1045 Merle R. appears, old farmland, flirting? In-Reply-To: <311438.73702.qm@web38408.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <311438.73702.qm@web38408.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4884C8C0.7040709@verizon.net> Mark Kohut wrote: > P.1045 > Merle Rideout, been there a long time and feared he ws turning into a hybrid citrus?? A tree? Planted-like? just a Merle R. witticism? (wikipedia says citrus trees hybridize easily) > > Why does OBA have Lew and Merle come together here? Merle, photographer and lightning rod salesman in film noir LA? Where Hollywood is happening. > > Sycamore Grove...Iowa girls...The Grove was mostly farmland then, it seems. Became (or also was) a park. > It would have been a pretty secluded area on those days when the state picnics were not being held (about half way between Pasadena and downtown L.A.). Sycamore Grove Park. The Iowa picnic was always a big affair. (as was the Nebraska picnic, which I was at a couple of times during the thirties with my former corn husker parents) The park had some relatively wild parts. Once some of us kids (or maybe I was alone) wandered off the main track into a hilly area and came across a very unfriendly man who told us, "Don't come up here no more." I think the area had a reputation as a haven for "undesirables." No problem for Lew or Merle. P. Shalimar, named after a battleship, remember, offers to be Lew's "muscle".Hilarious. > flirting with Erlys? for saying she looks the same as always?. Well, the woman seems to be right in these situations, yes? > > > > Zombini. Name of a famous magician. > > > > > > From paul.mackin at verizon.net Mon Jul 21 15:46:29 2008 From: paul.mackin at verizon.net (Paul Mackin) Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2008 16:46:29 -0400 Subject: AtD (37) p.1045 Merle R. appears, old farmland, flirting? In-Reply-To: <577393.71518.qm@web38405.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <577393.71518.qm@web38405.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4884F5A5.40002@verizon.net> Mark Kohut wrote: >> The park had some relatively wild parts. Once some of us >> kids (or maybe >> I was alone) wandered off the main track into a hilly area >> and came >> across a very unfriendly man who told us, "Don't >> come up here no more." >> > > There's the beginning of a mystery, or Sycamore Park as Chinatown... > The old Chinatown (of the movie) was only about five miles south of the park. Where Union Station is now. (if it's still there) The street is Alameda, which the Anglo locals (at that time anyway) pronounced AlaMEEda, not MAYda like they said it in the movie. From markekohut at yahoo.com Mon Jul 21 16:05:01 2008 From: markekohut at yahoo.com (Mark Kohut) Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2008 14:05:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: NP: "Watchmen" again (still).....from Galley Cat Message-ID: <630196.38797.qm@web38406.mail.mud.yahoo.com> One Trailer, One Weekend, One Bestseller Can a trailer turn a 22-year-old book into one of the biggest selling books on Amazon.com? OK, let's concede the technicality up front: The Watchmen trailer that was shown before The Dark Knight in movie theaters this weekend was promoting the forthcoming motion picture, not the graphic novel written by Alan Moore and illustrated by Dave Gibbons. Nevertheless, as Bully... read more>> From markekohut at yahoo.com Mon Jul 21 17:42:47 2008 From: markekohut at yahoo.com (Mark Kohut) Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2008 15:42:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: AtD (37) p.1046 Happy families are happy in their own way? Eden in CA. Message-ID: <691975.71598.qm@web38401.mail.mud.yahoo.com> P. 1046 Luca and Erlys, a large, seemingly happy family. Every happy family is happy in its own way? P shows his later life vision of happiness in family life? That garden: edenic, esp. the three trees: pomegrante, fig and lemon; all bearing homage to California's fertility? To paradise on earth---part of TRPs Paradiso herein? Like California in the early part of Vineland? Like the best of America? Luca and Erlys's fertility. From michael.lee.bailey at gmail.com Mon Jul 21 19:29:22 2008 From: michael.lee.bailey at gmail.com (Michael Bailey) Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2008 20:29:22 -0400 Subject: Repost: The Big One In-Reply-To: <487B5868.8030703@verizon.net> References: <071420080307.21391.487AC302000C920A0000538F2215575114040A0B0E0A9C0B020E0402070D019D@comcast.net> <487B5868.8030703@verizon.net> Message-ID: Paul Mackin wrote: > Sounds like you think there might be some kind of crazy conspiracy to > suppress the information. What major event (evenk) occurred between V. (where Eigenvalue argued against grouping the world's random caries into cabals) and CoL49 (where Oedipa learned to see...well, whatever it is WASTE is)? Kennedy assassination. > second, third, or fourth cousins? Tom is a digger however. The Hollander article traces political consciousness in OBA's high school editorials... an early and lasting hatred for corruption; the rumors around Kennedy's demise - as a digger, he would've seen the Zapruder film way before some of us (I didn't know it existed until 1974, but I've led a sheltered life) -- and as a person with leftie friends, would've been able to string a lot of dots together into a visto. But I stil maintain he's above all that and is writing for the ages... From kelber at mindspring.com Mon Jul 21 20:30:55 2008 From: kelber at mindspring.com (kelber at mindspring.com) Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2008 21:30:55 -0400 (EDT) Subject: AtD (37) p.1043 cont. Scylla and Charybdis, worse than ever, face cream and hop Message-ID: <10838484.1216690255874.JavaMail.root@elwamui-sweet.atl.sa.earthlink.net> The word "natch" is used to comic effect in Billy Wilder's 1945 movie: The Lost Weekend. Not a crime movie, but an alcoholism movie. Still, very noir-ish. Laura -----Original Message----- >From: Mark Kohut >Sent: Jul 21, 2008 7:17 AM > >The next line about the RC makes me smile (but with sadness at TRPs vision here)...The RC--see the endless cycle motif--is worse than ever-- under new management, natch. > >Of course, there would be only an empty jar of face cream for such as Ms. Maraca......... > >.50 cent in 1925 = about $6.00 tip today. (see inflation calculator). > >hop = marijuana > > > > > > > > From robinlandseadel at comcast.net Mon Jul 21 20:45:25 2008 From: robinlandseadel at comcast.net (robinlandseadel at comcast.net) Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2008 01:45:25 +0000 Subject: Repost: The Big One Message-ID: <072220080145.13930.48853BB50006DFFE0000366A2212059214040A0B0E0A9C0B020E0402070D019D@comcast.net> Paul Mackin wrote: Sounds like you think there might be some kind of crazy conspiracy to suppress the information. A: Ever read this Pynchin guy? Really really big on crackpot conspiracies. No, seriously�the fattest book of Pynchon cross references would have to be on historically extant paranoid conspiracies B: What happened between CoL 49's short black night and the nightmare that is Gravity's Rainbow? Richard Farina's Death. Now you can be rational, call it an obvious mis-adventure, blame it on youthful folly. . . . . . . .or you can do what Thomas Pynchon did and write Gravity's Rainbow, dedicate it to Richard Farina and have numerous seances folded into the plot of a book intent on a shoving a throughly revisionist history of WW 2 down your throat in no uncertain terms, all vectors leading to sinecures in the CIA for ex-Nazis, all laid out explicitly in Gravity's Rainbow. Or were we reading different books? I boned up in advance by reading Slaughterhouse 5 and Catch 22, what's your points of reference? Because, those two books are also throughly revisionist histories of WW 2 and of great value in their own right. C: When were you first aware of I.G. Farben? D: When were you first aware of Prescott Bush's involvement with I.G. Farben? With the CIA? With Standard Oil? P: When was Pynchon first aware of I.G. Farben, and why does he see a link between the dye company and the CIA and old east coast money and Nazis??? When were you first aware of Prescott Bush's involvement with I.G. Farben? Or do you consider this all a load of red herrings? Are you paranoid enough to be reading this? http://www.zeitgeistmovie.com/ And please�don't tell me this is OTT�GRAVITY'S RAINBOW IS OTT ! ! ! ! !, the very definition. From against.the.dave at gmail.com Tue Jul 22 01:04:06 2008 From: against.the.dave at gmail.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2008 01:04:06 -0500 Subject: Charles Stross, Accelerando (2005) Message-ID: http://www.accelerando.org/_static/accelerando.html From against.the.dave at gmail.com Tue Jul 22 01:05:49 2008 From: against.the.dave at gmail.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2008 01:05:49 -0500 Subject: Catachresis Message-ID: A.Word.A.Day with Anu Garg catachresis PRONUNCIATION: (kat-uh-KREE-sis) MEANING: noun: The misuse of words. ETYMOLOGY: Here's a catchall word for all those mixed metaphors, malapropisms, and bushisms. It derives via Latin from Greek katakhresthai (to misuse). USAGE: "Our neighbors to the north aren't spared the disease of catachresis, either. A Canadian politician displayed this manifestation of the illness: 'If this thing starts to snowball, it will catch fire right across the country.'" Jaime O'Neill; A Verbal Ship Lost in a Sea of Words; San Francisco Chronicle; Sep 25, 2005. http://wordsmith.org/words/catachresis.html From against.the.dave at gmail.com Tue Jul 22 01:35:17 2008 From: against.the.dave at gmail.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2008 01:35:17 -0500 Subject: The Road (2008) Message-ID: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0898367/ From monte.davis at verizon.net Tue Jul 22 04:52:33 2008 From: monte.davis at verizon.net (Monte Davis) Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2008 05:52:33 -0400 Subject: AtD (37) p.1043 "the ole RJ, earthquake, Santa Barbara, right angles of History In-Reply-To: <550336.27923.qm@web38405.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <361D1C26F465485EB0A98F2F359F03CD@MSI1> Mark Kohut sez: > "right-angled piece of local coastline" [check it out on a > map. I had no idea] Right angles are one of Pynchon's tropes > in AtD that link--and lead-- to the "rationalization" [ala > Weber] of modernity and, yes, death. Related to Cartesian > grids and linear thought. ... > Next sentence is a deep clue, somehow, I think, to this meaning: > 'This angle was the worst of all possible > aspects....condemning to "endless cycles of greed and > betrayal"'.........Such an angle, such 'rationalization' is > modern Western History?... I'm reminded of the double bend in Central America at Panama, such that ships bound from Atlantic to Pacific actually travel NW to SE. If Pynchon had invented the scramble of greed and betrayal that split Panama off from Venezuela, we'd class it among his more extravagantly silly inventions. From monte.davis at verizon.net Tue Jul 22 04:57:37 2008 From: monte.davis at verizon.net (Monte Davis) Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2008 05:57:37 -0400 Subject: Atd (37) p. 1041. Erie Line, 'home', Lincolnwood, fascism and a pink tab In-Reply-To: <072120081017.29783.4884624700094C35000074572215575114040A0B0E0A9C0B020E0402070D019D@comcast.net> Message-ID: <9FCE1A5D048B484BB69C493881FEEF66@MSI1> > how do people get away with > these insane prices for "Pynchon Industry" books anyway? Umm... because a lot of work goes into them and there's not a large market to spread the cost? Nah, must be the Vibe-Morgan-University Press cartel at work. From robinlandseadel at comcast.net Tue Jul 22 05:38:49 2008 From: robinlandseadel at comcast.net (robinlandseadel at comcast.net) Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2008 10:38:49 +0000 Subject: Atd (37) p. 1041. Erie Line, 'home', Lincolnwood, fascism and a pink tab Message-ID: <072220081038.16694.4885B8B900015A97000041362215575114040A0B0E0A9C0B020E0402070D019D@comcast.net> Monte: Nah, must be the Vibe-Morgan-University Press cartel at work. Good Point . . . . But seriously folks, $80.00 for a used copy of the facsimile of "Meritorious Price"? For that kind of money, the very least they could have done is reset the type, perhaps a touch of Websterization to smooth out the reading process? Maybe an explanatory footnote or two? A Translation of some of the more antique or arcane passages perhaps? It's not like your local library has a copy either. And Steven Weisenburger's "A Gravity's Rainbow Companion"�in print in a reasonably priced QP edition, now in its second printing�is as useful a book as can be found in the Pynchon Lit-Crit sub-genre. A lot of work went into that book and it sells because anyone trying to thread themselves through GR's labyrinth will find the "Companion" as useful a guide as anything out there. From robinlandseadel at comcast.net Tue Jul 22 06:12:37 2008 From: robinlandseadel at comcast.net (robinlandseadel at comcast.net) Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2008 11:12:37 +0000 Subject: Atd (37) p. 1041. Erie Line, 'home', Lincolnwood, fascism and a pink tab Message-ID: <072220081112.27776.4885C0A50006E55E00006C802215575114040A0B0E0A9C0B020E0402070D019D@comcast.net> . . . .and I did shell out those eighty bucks, didn't I? Reminds me of some shtick Grampa [Landseadel, Dad's Dad] picked up from numerous excursions into the Catskills, a thickly accented routine regarding a wedding, our nominal protagonist wending his way towards the buffet table�"all the pushingk and shovingk, it vas unbelievable, I should know, I vas dere foist." -------------- Original message ---------------------- From: robinlandseadel at comcast.net > Monte: > Nah, must be the Vibe-Morgan-University Press cartel at work. > > Good Point . . . . > > But seriously folks . . . . From markekohut at yahoo.com Tue Jul 22 06:45:22 2008 From: markekohut at yahoo.com (Mark Kohut) Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2008 04:45:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Atd (37) p. 1041. Erie Line, 'home', Lincolnwood, fascism and a pink tab In-Reply-To: <072220081038.16694.4885B8B900015A97000041362215575114040A0B0E0A9C0B020E0402070D019D@comcast.net> Message-ID: <194680.94925.qm@web38405.mail.mud.yahoo.com> the used book market is a 'secondary' market....pure supply and demand as the impure saying goes.............. those high prices are because few are available (book is out of print)---Cf. antiques; rare stamps (!)---and the sellers believe they can get that price......others have sold for around that price, for example. The buyers are mostly libraries, I would presume, who if their constituency wanted the book would pay the price. Some new institutionally-oriented books get priced that high because some libraries will buy them. (With new and available books, prices are 'suggested' based on total cost of production--including author's advance, if any---'overhead and maximizing sales. So, fewer books are ever so high. --- On Tue, 7/22/08, robinlandseadel at comcast.net wrote: > From: robinlandseadel at comcast.net > Subject: RE: Atd (37) p. 1041. Erie Line, 'home', Lincolnwood, fascism and a pink tab > To: "P-list" > Date: Tuesday, July 22, 2008, 6:38 AM > Monte: > Nah, must be the Vibe-Morgan-University Press > cartel at work. > > Good Point . . . . > > But seriously folks, $80.00 for a used copy of the > facsimile of "Meritorious > Price"? For that kind of money, the very least they > could have done is > reset the type, perhaps a touch of Websterization to smooth > out the > reading process? Maybe an explanatory footnote or two? A > Translation > of some of the more antique or arcane passages perhaps? > > It's not like your local library has a copy either. > > And Steven Weisenburger's "A Gravity's Rainbow > Companion"—in > print in a reasonably priced QP edition, now in its second > printing—is > as useful a book as can be found in the Pynchon Lit-Crit > sub-genre. A > lot of work went into that book and it sells because anyone > trying to > thread themselves through GR's labyrinth will find the > "Companion" as > useful a guide as anything out there. From markekohut at yahoo.com Tue Jul 22 06:47:16 2008 From: markekohut at yahoo.com (Mark Kohut) Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2008 04:47:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Atd (37) p. 1041. Erie Line, 'home', Lincolnwood, fascism and a pink tab In-Reply-To: <072220081112.27776.4885C0A50006E55E00006C802215575114040A0B0E0A9C0B020E0402070D019D@comcast.net> Message-ID: <482658.96784.qm@web38405.mail.mud.yahoo.com> 'Somebody' ought to bring some of those books back into print at a reasonable cost....need to do a deal with the rights holder---usually the author if the press has let it fall out of print for any legth of time. --- On Tue, 7/22/08, robinlandseadel at comcast.net wrote: > From: robinlandseadel at comcast.net > Subject: RE: Atd (37) p. 1041. Erie Line, 'home', Lincolnwood, fascism and a pink tab > To: "P-list" > Date: Tuesday, July 22, 2008, 7:12 AM > . . . .and I did shell out those eighty bucks, didn't I? > > > Reminds me of some shtick Grampa [Landseadel, Dad's > Dad] > picked up from numerous excursions into the Catskills, a > thickly > accented routine regarding a wedding, our nominal > protagonist > wending his way towards the buffet table—"all the > pushingk and > shovingk, it vas unbelievable, I should know, I vas dere > foist." > -------------- Original message ---------------------- > From: robinlandseadel at comcast.net > > Monte: > > Nah, must be the Vibe-Morgan-University > Press cartel at work. > > > > Good Point . . . . > > > > But seriously folks . . . . From robinlandseadel at comcast.net Tue Jul 22 06:52:17 2008 From: robinlandseadel at comcast.net (robinlandseadel at comcast.net) Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2008 11:52:17 +0000 Subject: Atd (37) p. 1041. Erie Line, 'home', Lincolnwood, fascism and a pink tab Message-ID: <072220081152.13995.4885C9F1000E2509000036AB2215575474040A0B0E0A9C0B020E0402070D019D@comcast.net> Don'tcha think that "Meritorious Price" is P.D.? -------------- Original message ---------------------- From: Mark Kohut > 'Somebody' ought to bring some of those books back into print at a > reasonable cost....need to do a deal with the rights holder---usually > the author if the press has let it fall out of print for any legth of time. From scuffling at gmail.com Tue Jul 22 07:12:08 2008 From: scuffling at gmail.com (Henry) Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2008 08:12:08 -0400 Subject: Catachresis In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <006901c8ebf4$2ac8f620$805ae260$@com> Did the word exist before Bush Baby? If so, before Dan Quayle? HENRY MU Information, Media, and Technology Consultant http://my.barackobama.com/page/outreach/view/main/PListe4Obama From robinlandseadel at comcast.net Tue Jul 22 07:18:19 2008 From: robinlandseadel at comcast.net (robinlandseadel at comcast.net) Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2008 12:18:19 +0000 Subject: Atd (37) p. 1041. Erie Line, 'home', Lincolnwood, fascism and a pink tab Message-ID: <072220081218.7430.4885D00B0008015F00001D062215575474040A0B0E0A9C0B020E0402070D019D@comcast.net> Mark Kohut: Would think so but somebody thinks the facsimile version can bear that. Amount that goes to most authors is a small relative cost of a new book final price anyway.(ask any author!) Monte is right! ! ! There is a Cartel [organ stab] ! ! ! Ah, but the Webb is a wondrous thing, is it not? Writings manifesting themselves on your screen only to disappear and than re-appear at a moments notice. Strange and wondrous. http://tinyurl.com/6x35az From markekohut at yahoo.com Tue Jul 22 07:39:40 2008 From: markekohut at yahoo.com (Mark Kohut) Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2008 05:39:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: AtD (37) p, 1047, Little Rascals, casting, method acting and selling Message-ID: <871207.48134.qm@web38401.mail.mud.yahoo.com> some words well-defined on the p-wiki if needed. L'il Jailbirds. I think that this is more an allusion to Our Gang, known as The Little Rascals in a Hollywood allusion---orig. in 1922---but with an internal allusion to the Chums?? I.E. going around doing good deeds, although they are not reform-school escapees---although we might call them immature juveniles when they start in AtD. Dunno, maybe too too kutely korresponding (on my part) but ???[Nah]....maybe an amalgam of The Little Rascals and the others mentioned on the p-wiki, but none of them seems to have this plot framework. Hollywood ignores real identity to cast by 'looks' and reflected light. More 'daylit' fiction? Continuing metaphor for America fictionalizing history, life? Cici practioing jabbering "Chinese style" for a silent movie. Getting "in character". Hilarious method acting, overacting joke [imho]. Hollywood's irreality continued. Merle, photographer and traveling salesman, here is what Time Magazine in 1930 wrote about his work as a lightning rod salesman:"About the turn of the century, "lightning rod salesman" became synonymous in New England with "horse thief" in Kansas. Most industries in such a situation would form an association, hire a good publicity man, set things right. But the lightning-rod-makers, while they published sales booklets filled with startling pictures of lightning and burnt houses, did not have to do this. In 1915 the National Board of Fire Underwriters set standards for equipment and ever since has urged the use of lightning-rods." Merle is not a citizen of any state but all of America is home. Merle, deracinated American who 'missed' home and family. From scuffling at gmail.com Tue Jul 22 08:10:33 2008 From: scuffling at gmail.com (Henry) Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2008 09:10:33 -0400 Subject: AtD (37) p, 1047, Little Rascals, casting, method acting and selling In-Reply-To: <871207.48134.qm@web38401.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <871207.48134.qm@web38401.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <007401c8ebfc$5387e500$fa97af00$@com> Pynch would like the changes while remaining the same from Little Tough Guys, Dead End Kids, East Side Kids, to Bowery Boys! Henry Mu Information, Media, and Technology Consultant http://my.barackobama.com/page/outreach/view/main/PListe4Obama From robinlandseadel at comcast.net Tue Jul 22 09:15:54 2008 From: robinlandseadel at comcast.net (robinlandseadel at comcast.net) Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2008 14:15:54 +0000 Subject: AtDTDA (37) 1046/47"I'd've let you do the cooking" Message-ID: <072220081415.408.4885EB9A000CE750000001982215586394040A0B0E0A9C0B020E0402070D019D@comcast.net> Luca in Hermetic Heaven: Luca came in with a bag of groceries. "Evenin Professor," Merle with a quick social smile. "Somebody's told me you were coming I'd've let you do the cooking" said Luca. "I could peel somethin. Carve it up?" "Most of it's growing out back, come on." They went out the back door and into a sizable garden, full of long green frying peppers, bush-sized basil plants,zucchini running all over the place, artichokes with their feathery tops blowing in a wind in today from the desert, eggplants glowing ultraviolet in the shadows, tomatoes looking like the four-color illustrations of themselves that showed upon lugs down at the market. There was a pomegranate tree, and a fig tree, and a lemon tree, all bearing. . . . Against the Day, pages 1046 & 1047 The fundamental issue in our study is the human exprience of nature. The average modern man's relationship with nature is not the one that prevailed in the premodern "cycle" to which, along with many other traditions, the hermetico- alchemical tradition belongs. The study of nature today devotes itself exhaustively to a conglomeration of strictly reasoned laws concerning various "phenomena"�light, electricity, heat, etc.�which spread out kaleidoscopically before us utterly devoid of any spiritual meaning, derived solely from mathematical processes. In the traditional world, on the contrary, nature was not thought about but lived, as though it were a great, sacred, animated body, "the visible expression of the invisible." Knowledge about nature derived from inspiration, intuition and visions, and was transmitted "by initiation" as so many living "mysteries," referring to things today that have lost their meaning and seem banal and commonplace�as, for example, the art of building, medicine, cultivation of the soil and so forth. . . ." "The Hermetic Tradition", Julius Evola, page 15. . . . .Unless the state of our souls becomes once more a subject of serious concern, there is little question that Sloth will continue to evolve away from its origins in the long-ago age of faith and miracle, when daily life really was the Holy Ghost visibly at work and time was a story, with a beginning, middle and end. Belief was intense, engagement deep and fatal. The Christian God was near. Felt. Sloth -- defiant sorrow in the face of God's good intentions -- was a deadly sin. Thomas Pynchon: "Nearer, my Couch, to Thee" Towards the end of Gravity's Rainbow we are witness to a number of magickal failures after Geli's magickal triumph. Vineland's finale is notable for the way all the plot lines single-up, fired more by the flames of family feuds & history than anything else, even Prairie Wheeler getting seduced by the props of power in the forms of a badge and a gun�a Pavlovian response akin to Slothrop's thing for Impolex G. And in Mason & Dixon time takes its course. But in "Against the Day" Pynchon is giving us little glimpses of heaven in the coda. Welcome to the Hermeticist's garden. There's Pert's Ascent with Thomas Tallis, Cyprian's Covenant and soon to come we will have Kit's transmigration, the lesson he learned on the way to Shambhala. It is the hopeful P.O.V.of a Buddah, working to see that everyone gets to heaven, that no-one has to stay exiled. I'm not sayin' that TRP is Buddha, buddy but I am saying that, like the Beats, OBA's had his mind on the Bottisatvas for a while, little references in CoL49, bigger ones in GR but OTT in Vineland and AtD. From markekohut at yahoo.com Tue Jul 22 10:08:45 2008 From: markekohut at yahoo.com (Mark Kohut) Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2008 08:08:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: AtDTDA (37) 1046/47"I'd've let you do the cooking" In-Reply-To: <072220081415.408.4885EB9A000CE750000001982215586394040A0B0E0A9C0B020E0402070D019D@comcast.net> Message-ID: <297488.42621.qm@web38405.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Robin writes, quoting: "In the traditional world, on the contrary, nature was not thought about but lived, as though it were a great, sacred, animated body, "the visible expression of the invisible." MK: I like this enormously in understanding---with his own more aslant non-fiction words--a major vision in his work, most fully expressed in AtD? ___________________________________________________________________ --- On Tue, 7/22/08, robinlandseadel at comcast.net wrote: > From: robinlandseadel at comcast.net > Subject: AtDTDA (37) 1046/47"I'd've let you do the cooking" > To: "P-list" > Date: Tuesday, July 22, 2008, 10:15 AM > Luca in Hermetic Heaven: > > Luca came in with a bag of groceries. > > "Evenin Professor," Merle with a quick > social smile. > > "Somebody's told me you were coming > I'd've let you > do the cooking" said Luca. > > "I could peel somethin. Carve it up?" > > "Most of it's growing out back, come > on." They went out > the back door and into a sizable garden, full of > long green > frying peppers, bush-sized basil plants,zucchini > running > all over the place, artichokes with their > feathery tops > blowing in a wind in today from the desert, > eggplants > glowing ultraviolet in the shadows, tomatoes > looking like > the four-color illustrations of themselves that > showed upon > lugs down at the market. There was a pomegranate > tree, > and a fig tree, and a lemon tree, all bearing. . > . . > > Against the Day, pages 1046 & 1047 > > The fundamental issue in our study is the human > exprience > of nature. The average modern man's > relationship with > nature is not the one that prevailed in the > premodern "cycle" > to which, along with many other traditions, the > hermetico- > alchemical tradition belongs. The study of nature > today > devotes itself exhaustively to a conglomeration > of strictly > reasoned laws concerning various > "phenomena"—light, > electricity, heat, etc.—which spread out > kaleidoscopically > before us utterly devoid of any spiritual > meaning, derived > solely from mathematical processes. In the > traditional world, > on the contrary, nature was not thought about but > lived, as > though it were a great, sacred, animated body, > "the visible > expression of the invisible." Knowledge > about nature > derived from inspiration, intuition and visions, > and was > transmitted "by initiation" as so many > living "mysteries," > referring to things today that have lost their > meaning and > seem banal and commonplace—as, for example, the > art > of building, medicine, cultivation of the soil > and so forth. . . ." > > "The Hermetic Tradition", Julius Evola, > page 15. > > . . . .Unless the state of our souls becomes once > more > a subject of serious concern, there is little > question that > Sloth will continue to evolve away from its > origins in the > long-ago age of faith and miracle, when daily > life really > was the Holy Ghost visibly at work and time was a > story, > with a beginning, middle and end. Belief was > intense, > engagement deep and fatal. The Christian God was > near. > Felt. Sloth -- defiant sorrow in the face of > God's good > intentions -- was a deadly sin. > Thomas Pynchon: "Nearer, my Couch, to > Thee" > > > Towards the end of Gravity's Rainbow we are witness to > a number > of magickal failures after Geli's magickal triumph. > Vineland's finale > is notable for the way all the plot lines single-up, fired > more by the > flames of family feuds & history than anything else, > even Prairie > Wheeler getting seduced by the props of power in the forms > of a > badge and a gun—a Pavlovian response akin to > Slothrop's thing > for Impolex G. And in Mason & Dixon time takes its > course. > > But in "Against the Day" Pynchon is giving us > little glimpses of > heaven in the coda. Welcome to the Hermeticist's > garden. There's > Pert's Ascent with Thomas Tallis, Cyprian's > Covenant and soon > to come we will have Kit's transmigration, the lesson > he learned > on the way to Shambhala. It is the hopeful P.O.V.of a > Buddah, > working to see that everyone gets to heaven, that no-one > has > to stay exiled. > > I'm not sayin' that TRP is Buddha, buddy but I am > saying that, like the > Beats, OBA's had his mind on the Bottisatvas for a > while, little references in > CoL49, bigger ones in GR but OTT in Vineland and AtD. From robinlandseadel at comcast.net Tue Jul 22 10:25:27 2008 From: robinlandseadel at comcast.net (robinlandseadel at comcast.net) Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2008 15:25:27 +0000 Subject: AtDTDA (37) 1046/47"I'd've let you do the cooking" Message-ID: <072220081525.15166.4885FBE70000146300003B3E2216566276040A0B0E0A9C0B020E0402070D019D@comcast.net> Julius Evola: "In the traditional world, on the contrary, nature was not thought about but lived, as though it were a great, sacred, animated body, "the visible expression of the invisible." Mark Kohut: I like this enormously in understanding---with his own more aslant non-fiction words--a major vision in his work, most fully expressed in AtD? If "Science"�Big Science [hallelujah]*�is the new religion than "The Sentient Earth" is the new heresy. OBA's been collecting heresies for quite awhile, I suspect that "Meritorious Price" has been in the background all along. Examples of the holistic unity �the "at-one-ness"�of Earth abounds in AtD. Everything connects. *Born out of a need to justify exploitation, "The Age of Reason" so ably parodied in Mason & Dixon was more like "The Age of Rationalization." Not simply out of its need to explain away "the supernatural" but also in the sense of narrowing options until the line to the abattoir singles up, nice and smooth. From igrlivingston at gmail.com Tue Jul 22 10:54:49 2008 From: igrlivingston at gmail.com (Ian Livingston) Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2008 08:54:49 -0700 Subject: AtD (37) p, 1047, Little Rascals, casting, method acting and selling In-Reply-To: <871207.48134.qm@web38401.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <871207.48134.qm@web38401.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <95cde1ee0807220854w78454d32jdfc64f630905f4d7@mail.gmail.com> Uh, Herman Melville register anywhere here? On Tue, Jul 22, 2008 at 5:39 AM, Mark Kohut wrote: > some words well-defined on the p-wiki if needed. > > L'il Jailbirds. I think that this is more an allusion to Our Gang, known as > The Little Rascals in a Hollywood allusion---orig. in 1922---but with an > internal allusion to the Chums?? > I.E. going around doing good deeds, although they are not reform-school > escapees---although we might call them immature juveniles when they start in > AtD. Dunno, maybe too too kutely korresponding (on my part) but > ???[Nah]....maybe an amalgam of The Little Rascals and the others mentioned > on the p-wiki, but none of them seems to have this plot framework. > > Hollywood ignores real identity to cast by 'looks' and reflected light. > More 'daylit' fiction? Continuing metaphor for America fictionalizing > history, life? > > Cici practioing jabbering "Chinese style" for a silent movie. Getting "in > character". Hilarious method acting, overacting joke [imho]. Hollywood's > irreality continued. > > Merle, photographer and traveling salesman, here is what Time Magazine in > 1930 wrote about his work as a lightning rod salesman:"About the turn of the > century, "lightning rod salesman" became synonymous in New England with > "horse thief" in Kansas. > Most industries in such a situation would form an association, hire a good > publicity man, set things right. But the lightning-rod-makers, while they > published sales booklets filled with startling pictures of lightning and > burnt houses, did not have to do this. In 1915 the National Board of Fire > Underwriters set standards for equipment and ever since has urged the use of > lightning-rods." > > Merle is not a citizen of any state but all of America is home. Merle, > deracinated American who 'missed' home and family. > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From markekohut at yahoo.com Tue Jul 22 11:05:03 2008 From: markekohut at yahoo.com (Mark Kohut) Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2008 09:05:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: AtD (37) p, 1047, Little Rascals, casting, method acting and selling In-Reply-To: <95cde1ee0807220854w78454d32jdfc64f630905f4d7@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <236497.99486.qm@web38401.mail.mud.yahoo.com> "The Lightning Rod Salesman" story, ya mean? Natch, as Laura likes to say noirly, but Merle is not such a fraud as that story in that time suggests, yes? But I betcha TRP got the first notion of lightning-rod salesman from it. (I might argue that that is the way he sees Merle's major occupation---photography. He don't seem to like it much, as we know...) I might argue that Merle is just a struggling victim in the wake of? --- On Tue, 7/22/08, Ian Livingston wrote: > From: Ian Livingston > Subject: Re: AtD (37) p, 1047, Little Rascals, casting, method acting and selling > To: markekohut at yahoo.com > Cc: "pynchon -l" > Date: Tuesday, July 22, 2008, 11:54 AM > Uh, Herman Melville register anywhere here? > > On Tue, Jul 22, 2008 at 5:39 AM, Mark Kohut > wrote: > > > some words well-defined on the p-wiki if needed. > > > > L'il Jailbirds. I think that this is more an > allusion to Our Gang, known as > > The Little Rascals in a Hollywood allusion---orig. in > 1922---but with an > > internal allusion to the Chums?? > > I.E. going around doing good deeds, although they are > not reform-school > > escapees---although we might call them immature > juveniles when they start in > > AtD. Dunno, maybe too too kutely korresponding (on my > part) but > > ???[Nah]....maybe an amalgam of The Little Rascals and > the others mentioned > > on the p-wiki, but none of them seems to have this > plot framework. > > > > Hollywood ignores real identity to cast by > 'looks' and reflected light. > > More 'daylit' fiction? Continuing metaphor for > America fictionalizing > > history, life? > > > > Cici practioing jabbering "Chinese style" > for a silent movie. Getting "in > > character". Hilarious method acting, overacting > joke [imho]. Hollywood's > > irreality continued. > > > > Merle, photographer and traveling salesman, here is > what Time Magazine in > > 1930 wrote about his work as a lightning rod > salesman:"About the turn of the > > century, "lightning rod salesman" became > synonymous in New England with > > "horse thief" in Kansas. > > Most industries in such a situation would form an > association, hire a good > > publicity man, set things right. But the > lightning-rod-makers, while they > > published sales booklets filled with startling > pictures of lightning and > > burnt houses, did not have to do this. In 1915 the > National Board of Fire > > Underwriters set standards for equipment and ever > since has urged the use of > > lightning-rods." > > > > Merle is not a citizen of any state but all of America > is home. Merle, > > deracinated American who 'missed' home and > family. > > > > > > > > From igrlivingston at gmail.com Tue Jul 22 11:16:23 2008 From: igrlivingston at gmail.com (Ian Livingston) Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2008 09:16:23 -0700 Subject: AtD (37) p, 1047, Little Rascals, casting, method acting and selling In-Reply-To: <236497.99486.qm@web38401.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <95cde1ee0807220854w78454d32jdfc64f630905f4d7@mail.gmail.com> <236497.99486.qm@web38401.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <95cde1ee0807220916s4a2920cdv1beb67f1b0b908@mail.gmail.com> I was thinking more the politics of fear-mongering "The Lightning Rod Man" pedalled. And the rage it aroused in the narrator. Visions of Merle meets Howard Beale. On Tue, Jul 22, 2008 at 9:05 AM, Mark Kohut wrote: > "The Lightning Rod Salesman" story, ya mean? > > Natch, as Laura likes to say noirly, but Merle is not such a fraud as that > story in that time suggests, yes? But I betcha TRP got the first notion of > lightning-rod salesman from it. (I might argue that that is the way he sees > Merle's major occupation---photography. He don't seem to like it much, as > we know...) > > I might argue that Merle is just a struggling victim in the wake of? > > > --- On Tue, 7/22/08, Ian Livingston wrote: > > > From: Ian Livingston > > Subject: Re: AtD (37) p, 1047, Little Rascals, casting, method acting and > selling > > To: markekohut at yahoo.com > > Cc: "pynchon -l" > > Date: Tuesday, July 22, 2008, 11:54 AM > > Uh, Herman Melville register anywhere here? > > > > On Tue, Jul 22, 2008 at 5:39 AM, Mark Kohut > > wrote: > > > > > some words well-defined on the p-wiki if needed. > > > > > > L'il Jailbirds. I think that this is more an > > allusion to Our Gang, known as > > > The Little Rascals in a Hollywood allusion---orig. in > > 1922---but with an > > > internal allusion to the Chums?? > > > I.E. going around doing good deeds, although they are > > not reform-school > > > escapees---although we might call them immature > > juveniles when they start in > > > AtD. Dunno, maybe too too kutely korresponding (on my > > part) but > > > ???[Nah]....maybe an amalgam of The Little Rascals and > > the others mentioned > > > on the p-wiki, but none of them seems to have this > > plot framework. > > > > > > Hollywood ignores real identity to cast by > > 'looks' and reflected light. > > > More 'daylit' fiction? Continuing metaphor for > > America fictionalizing > > > history, life? > > > > > > Cici practioing jabbering "Chinese style" > > for a silent movie. Getting "in > > > character". Hilarious method acting, overacting > > joke [imho]. Hollywood's > > > irreality continued. > > > > > > Merle, photographer and traveling salesman, here is > > what Time Magazine in > > > 1930 wrote about his work as a lightning rod > > salesman:"About the turn of the > > > century, "lightning rod salesman" became > > synonymous in New England with > > > "horse thief" in Kansas. > > > Most industries in such a situation would form an > > association, hire a good > > > publicity man, set things right. But the > > lightning-rod-makers, while they > > > published sales booklets filled with startling > > pictures of lightning and > > > burnt houses, did not have to do this. In 1915 the > > National Board of Fire > > > Underwriters set standards for equipment and ever > > since has urged the use of > > > lightning-rods." > > > > > > Merle is not a citizen of any state but all of America > > is home. Merle, > > > deracinated American who 'missed' home and > > family. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From markekohut at yahoo.com Tue Jul 22 11:39:22 2008 From: markekohut at yahoo.com (Mark Kohut) Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2008 09:39:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: AtD (37) p, 1047, Little Rascals, casting, method acting and selling In-Reply-To: <95cde1ee0807220916s4a2920cdv1beb67f1b0b908@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <14000.75885.qm@web38404.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Deeper than I got.....must reread and rethink, but you sound right on, as used to be said... --- On Tue, 7/22/08, Ian Livingston wrote: > From: Ian Livingston > Subject: Re: AtD (37) p, 1047, Little Rascals, casting, method acting and selling > To: markekohut at yahoo.com, "pynchon -l" > Date: Tuesday, July 22, 2008, 12:16 PM > I was thinking more the politics of fear-mongering "The > Lightning Rod Man" > pedalled. And the rage it aroused in the narrator. > Visions of Merle meets > Howard Beale. > > On Tue, Jul 22, 2008 at 9:05 AM, Mark Kohut > wrote: > > > "The Lightning Rod Salesman" story, ya mean? > > > > Natch, as Laura likes to say noirly, but Merle is not > such a fraud as that > > story in that time suggests, yes? But I betcha TRP got > the first notion of > > lightning-rod salesman from it. (I might argue that > that is the way he sees > > Merle's major occupation---photography. He > don't seem to like it much, as > > we know...) > > > > I might argue that Merle is just a struggling victim > in the wake of? > > > > > > --- On Tue, 7/22/08, Ian Livingston > wrote: > > > > > From: Ian Livingston > > > > Subject: Re: AtD (37) p, 1047, Little Rascals, > casting, method acting and > > selling > > > To: markekohut at yahoo.com > > > Cc: "pynchon -l" > > > > Date: Tuesday, July 22, 2008, 11:54 AM > > > Uh, Herman Melville register anywhere here? > > > > > > On Tue, Jul 22, 2008 at 5:39 AM, Mark Kohut > > > wrote: > > > > > > > some words well-defined on the p-wiki if > needed. > > > > > > > > L'il Jailbirds. I think that this is > more an > > > allusion to Our Gang, known as > > > > The Little Rascals in a Hollywood > allusion---orig. in > > > 1922---but with an > > > > internal allusion to the Chums?? > > > > I.E. going around doing good deeds, although > they are > > > not reform-school > > > > escapees---although we might call them > immature > > > juveniles when they start in > > > > AtD. Dunno, maybe too too kutely > korresponding (on my > > > part) but > > > > ???[Nah]....maybe an amalgam of The Little > Rascals and > > > the others mentioned > > > > on the p-wiki, but none of them seems to > have this > > > plot framework. > > > > > > > > Hollywood ignores real identity to cast by > > > 'looks' and reflected light. > > > > More 'daylit' fiction? Continuing > metaphor for > > > America fictionalizing > > > > history, life? > > > > > > > > Cici practioing jabbering "Chinese > style" > > > for a silent movie. Getting "in > > > > character". Hilarious method acting, > overacting > > > joke [imho]. Hollywood's > > > > irreality continued. > > > > > > > > Merle, photographer and traveling salesman, > here is > > > what Time Magazine in > > > > 1930 wrote about his work as a lightning rod > > > salesman:"About the turn of the > > > > century, "lightning rod salesman" > became > > > synonymous in New England with > > > > "horse thief" in Kansas. > > > > Most industries in such a situation would > form an > > > association, hire a good > > > > publicity man, set things right. But the > > > lightning-rod-makers, while they > > > > published sales booklets filled with > startling > > > pictures of lightning and > > > > burnt houses, did not have to do this. In > 1915 the > > > National Board of Fire > > > > Underwriters set standards for equipment and > ever > > > since has urged the use of > > > > lightning-rods." > > > > > > > > Merle is not a citizen of any state but all > of America > > > is home. Merle, > > > > deracinated American who 'missed' > home and > > > family. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From fqmorris at gmail.com Tue Jul 22 11:45:54 2008 From: fqmorris at gmail.com (David Morris) Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2008 11:45:54 -0500 Subject: Windigo psychosis Message-ID: <7d461dc80807220945g4ac7a3a1k32ddc3f84547713c@mail.gmail.com> http://www.weirduniverse.net/blog/permalink/windigo_psychosis/ Windigo Psychosis The Edmonton Sun offers this description of a bizarre murder that occurred in 1887 near Canada's Slave Lake: Marie Courtereille, 40, died after being struck four times with an axe -- twice by her husband Michel Courtereille and twice by her son Cecil. Testimony at their trial indicated that Marie had begged to be killed because she believed she was possessed by a Windigo, telling them, "I am bound to eat you." Over a period of several weeks, she became increasingly aggressive, "roaring like an animal" and attacking her husband. Eventually, she was tied down and guarded around the clock until it was decided that there was no choice but to kill her. The community supported the killing. A Windigo (also spelled Wendigo) is a creature from Algonquin mythology. The Algonquins believed that Windigos were malevolent spirits who could possess people, transforming them into "wild-eyed, violent, flesh-eating maniacs with superhuman strength." Horror fans will be familiar with Windigos, since they've featured in a number of horror books and movies. The term "Windigo psychosis" describes a psychological condition in which people who believed they were possessed by a Windigo would go on cannibalistic rampages. Many researchers regard Windigo psychosis as something of an Algonquin urban legend, but ethno-historian Nathan Carlson argues that it was a real phenomenon "which haunted communities right across northern Alberta in the late 19th and early 20th Centuries and cost dozens of lives." Carlson is working on a book that will documents dozens of cases of Windigo psychosis. Sounds like fun reading. From jkyllo at gmail.com Tue Jul 22 11:54:39 2008 From: jkyllo at gmail.com (James Kyllo) Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2008 17:54:39 +0100 Subject: AtD (37) p, 1047, Little Rascals, casting, method acting and selling In-Reply-To: <236497.99486.qm@web38401.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <95cde1ee0807220854w78454d32jdfc64f630905f4d7@mail.gmail.com> <236497.99486.qm@web38401.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Jul 22, 2008 at 5:05 PM, Mark Kohut wrote: > "The Lightning Rod Salesman" story, ya mean? > > Natch, as Laura likes to say noirly, but Merle is not such a fraud as that story in that time suggests, yes? But I betcha TRP got the first notion of > lightning-rod salesman from it. Or maybe Ray Bradbury's "Something Wicked This Way Comes" -- http://www.last.fm/user/Auto_Da_Fe http://www.pop.nu/en/show_collection.asp?user=2412 http://www.librarything.com/profile/Auto_Da_Fe http://www.thedetails.co.uk/ From paul.mackin at verizon.net Tue Jul 22 12:34:19 2008 From: paul.mackin at verizon.net (Paul Mackin) Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2008 13:34:19 -0400 Subject: Repost: The Big One In-Reply-To: <072220080145.13930.48853BB50006DFFE0000366A2212059214040A0B0E0A9C0B020E0402070D019D@comcast.net> References: <072220080145.13930.48853BB50006DFFE0000366A2212059214040A0B0E0A9C0B020E0402070D019D@comcast.net> Message-ID: <48861A1B.1010608@verizon.net> robinlandseadel at comcast.net wrote: > Paul Mackin wrote: > > Sounds like you think there might be some kind > of crazy conspiracy to suppress the information. > Clarification: I don't for a moment think Robin believes in a conspiracy to suppress info on the Pynchon family. It just kind of sounded like he did. His questions probably aren't specifically for me but in the spirit of fun I'll take a stab. > A: Ever read this Pynchin guy? Really really big on crackpot conspiracies. > No, seriously—the fattest book of Pynchon cross references would have > to be on historically extant paranoid conspiracies > Started reading GR the day it was published. Had a lot of free time and finished it quickly. Liked and admired it but didn't have an epiphany mainly because I was alread 47. > B: What happened between CoL 49's short black night and the nightmare > that is Gravity's Rainbow? Richard Farina's Death. Now you can be > rational, call it an obvious mis-adventure, blame it on youthful folly. . . . > > . . . .or you can do what Thomas Pynchon did and write Gravity's Rainbow, > dedicate it to Richard Farina and have numerous seances folded into the > plot of a book intent on a shoving a throughly revisionist history of WW 2 > down your throat in no uncertain terms, all vectors leading to sinecures > in the CIA for ex-Nazis, all laid out explicitly in Gravity's Rainbow. > > Or were we reading different books? I boned up in advance by reading > Slaughterhouse 5 and Catch 22, what's your points of reference? > Because, those two books are also throughly revisionist histories > of WW 2 and of great value in their own right. > Or you can do both. Or neither. Why do you ask? > C: When were you first aware of I.G. Farben? > Cary Grant asked Ingrid Bergman a somewhat similar question in "Notorious" (1946). "Even heard of I.G Farben?" A bunch of fugitives from the outfit were hanging out in Brazil. I loved the movie. The I. G. Farben war crimes trials were pretty prominent in the news around that time. Right after the war is my best answer. > D: When were you first aware of Prescott Bush's involvement with I.G. > Farben? With the CIA? With Standard Oil? > A few years ago a bunch of books came out on what I think you are referring to. The Guardian had a long article on the various treatments. > P: When was Pynchon first aware of I.G. Farben, and why does he > see a link between the dye company and the CIA and old east coast > money and Nazis??? ome time before writing GR. > No way of knowing. > When were you first aware of Prescott Bush's involvement with I.G. Farben? > Or do you consider this all a load of red herrings? > Mostly overblown. There's always money to be made during wars. There's also a lot to be lost. I don't think W's grandpa was a Nazi; his grandson kinda acts like one however. > > Are you paranoid enough to be reading this? > Definitely. > http://www.zeitgeistmovie.com/ > > And please—don't tell me this is OTT—GRAVITY'S RAINBOW IS OTT ! ! ! ! !, > the very definition. > > > As Jessica Swanlake said, "I'm afraid I don't . . ." From mryc2903 at yahoo.fr Tue Jul 22 13:40:22 2008 From: mryc2903 at yahoo.fr (Michel Ryckx) Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2008 20:40:22 +0200 Subject: Pynchon Paper & [fake] Pic Message-ID: <48862996.5070604@yahoo.fr> Another article one of the IPW2008 speakers pointed my attention to: "The idea of progress is embodied in the third shadow army moving through the pages of Thomas Pynchon’s novel – namely the fleet of Zeppelins or steered and propelled balloons, which circle the planet on missions and assignments. These missions are gradually shifting and allow the expanding crews for more and more of a discretion in conducting their private search projects and experiencing adventures in the Balkans or in Mexico or above the crater created by the explosion of a meteorite in the Siberian taiga in 1912. The skyships also evolve, increasingly armed with the newest inventions in navigation, in propelling and arms, so that at the end of the novel they actually resemble space shuttles on mysterious missions, symbolically embodying the hope for the swiftness and lightness of progress." OK, a rather simple paper and whatever you think of it: strange picture on page 18 (my guess: fake) Presented by Sławomir Magala during a conference on May, 11, 2007 at the University of Essex, UK: http://www.essex.ac.uk/afm/emc/novelconference/magala_paper.pdf Michel ___________________________________________________________________________ Yahoo! Mail r�invente le mail ! D�couvrez le nouveau Yahoo! Mail et son interface r�volutionnaire. http://fr.mail.yahoo.com From markekohut at yahoo.com Tue Jul 22 13:51:22 2008 From: markekohut at yahoo.com (Mark Kohut) Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2008 11:51:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: AtD (37) p, 1047, Little Rascals, casting, method acting and selling In-Reply-To: <95cde1ee0807220916s4a2920cdv1beb67f1b0b908@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <168894.95785.qm@web38408.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Ian writes of the covert theme of fear-mongering: > I was thinking more the politics of fear-mongering "The > Lightning Rod Man" > pedalled. And the rage it aroused in the narrator. I go back to p. 1042, bottom, where overtly "[what] Lew had learned to recognize as fear of someobdy else's power." > Visions of Merle meets > Howard Beale. > > On Tue, Jul 22, 2008 at 9:05 AM, Mark Kohut > wrote: > > > "The Lightning Rod Salesman" story, ya mean? > > > > Natch, as Laura likes to say noirly, but Merle is not > such a fraud as that > > story in that time suggests, yes? But I betcha TRP got > the first notion of > > lightning-rod salesman from it. (I might argue that > that is the way he sees > > Merle's major occupation---photography. He > don't seem to like it much, as > > we know...) > > > > I might argue that Merle is just a struggling victim > in the wake of? > > > > > > --- On Tue, 7/22/08, Ian Livingston > wrote: > > > > > From: Ian Livingston > > > > Subject: Re: AtD (37) p, 1047, Little Rascals, > casting, method acting and > > selling > > > To: markekohut at yahoo.com > > > Cc: "pynchon -l" > > > > Date: Tuesday, July 22, 2008, 11:54 AM > > > Uh, Herman Melville register anywhere here? > > > > > > On Tue, Jul 22, 2008 at 5:39 AM, Mark Kohut > > > wrote: > > > > > > > some words well-defined on the p-wiki if > needed. > > > > > > > > L'il Jailbirds. I think that this is > more an > > > allusion to Our Gang, known as > > > > The Little Rascals in a Hollywood > allusion---orig. in > > > 1922---but with an > > > > internal allusion to the Chums?? > > > > I.E. going around doing good deeds, although > they are > > > not reform-school > > > > escapees---although we might call them > immature > > > juveniles when they start in > > > > AtD. Dunno, maybe too too kutely > korresponding (on my > > > part) but > > > > ???[Nah]....maybe an amalgam of The Little > Rascals and > > > the others mentioned > > > > on the p-wiki, but none of them seems to > have this > > > plot framework. > > > > > > > > Hollywood ignores real identity to cast by > > > 'looks' and reflected light. > > > > More 'daylit' fiction? Continuing > metaphor for > > > America fictionalizing > > > > history, life? > > > > > > > > Cici practioing jabbering "Chinese > style" > > > for a silent movie. Getting "in > > > > character". Hilarious method acting, > overacting > > > joke [imho]. Hollywood's > > > > irreality continued. > > > > > > > > Merle, photographer and traveling salesman, > here is > > > what Time Magazine in > > > > 1930 wrote about his work as a lightning rod > > > salesman:"About the turn of the > > > > century, "lightning rod salesman" > became > > > synonymous in New England with > > > > "horse thief" in Kansas. > > > > Most industries in such a situation would > form an > > > association, hire a good > > > > publicity man, set things right. But the > > > lightning-rod-makers, while they > > > > published sales booklets filled with > startling > > > pictures of lightning and > > > > burnt houses, did not have to do this. In > 1915 the > > > National Board of Fire > > > > Underwriters set standards for equipment and > ever > > > since has urged the use of > > > > lightning-rods." > > > > > > > > Merle is not a citizen of any state but all > of America > > > is home. Merle, > > > > deracinated American who 'missed' > home and > > > family. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From scuffling at gmail.com Tue Jul 22 14:04:07 2008 From: scuffling at gmail.com (Henry) Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2008 15:04:07 -0400 Subject: AtD (37) p.1045 Merle R. appears, old farmland, flirting? In-Reply-To: <311438.73702.qm@web38408.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <311438.73702.qm@web38408.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <00a301c8ec2d$b7b67290$272357b0$@com> After reading a number, here are a few lightning rod links that I particularly enjoyed: http://www.ideafinder.com/history/inventions/lightningrod.htm http://www.lightningrodrecords.com/ http://www.mensvogue.com/health/feature/articles/2008/04/arod (after all, OBA is a NYer these days) http://www.usatoday.com/weather/resources/basics/2000-05-15-lightn-rod-tests .htm Henry Mu Information, Media, and Technology Consultant http://my.barackobama.com/page/outreach/view/main/PListe4Obama -----Original Message----- From: Mark Kohut Sent: Monday, July 21, 2008 10:13 AM To: pynchon -l Subject: AtD (37) p.1045 Merle R. appears, old farmland, flirting? P.1045 Merle Rideout, been there a long time and feared he ws turning into a hybrid citrus?? A tree? Planted-like? just a Merle R. witticism? (wikipedia says citrus trees hybridize easily) Why does OBA have Lew and Merle come together here? Merle, photographer and lightning rod salesman in film noir LA? Where Hollywood is happening. From takoitov at hotmail.com Tue Jul 22 17:04:41 2008 From: takoitov at hotmail.com (Ya Sam) Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2008 05:04:41 +0700 Subject: Theroux on Pynchon (a bit) Message-ID: Sorry if posted before. A longish interview with Alexander Theroux about Laura Warholic. Somewhere in the middle he discusses P. and 'Against the Day'. http://cdn3.libsyn.com/colinmarshall/MOI_Alexander_Theroux.mp3?nvb=20080722212818&nva=20080723212818&t=0ee3cd88427ddb99d741d _________________________________________________________________ Invite your mail contacts to join your friends list with Windows Live Spaces. It's easy! http://spaces.live.com/spacesapi.aspx?wx_action=create&wx_url=/friends.aspx&mkt=en-us From scuffling at gmail.com Tue Jul 22 17:11:01 2008 From: scuffling at gmail.com (Henry) Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2008 18:11:01 -0400 Subject: FW: Eich bin ein Berliner - NOT DONUT Message-ID: <001701c8ec47$d3d899c0$7b89cd40$@com> Thanks, Lisa! Um, maybe KO was joking… In a New York Review of Books (NOT the No-Yuck-Err!) Review of Thomas Pynchon’s Against the Day (great book, btw): http://www.nybooks.com/articles/19771 At one point Pynchon inserts Kit Traverse into a Göttingen insane asylum apparently just so he can set up the story of a patient there who "has come to believe that he is a certain well-known pastry of Berlin—similar to your own American, as you would say, Jelly-doughnut." The patient, who enjoys being powdered with Puderzucker and placed on a shelf, declares, naturally, "ICH BIN EIN BERLINER!" More info from http://against-the-day.pynchonwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=K Kennedy, John Fitzgerald 626; "Ich bin ein Berliner" ("I am a citizen of Berlin") is a famous quotation from a June 26, 1963 speech of U.S. President John F. Kennedy in West Berlin. He was underlining the support of the United States for democratic West Germany shortly after the Soviet-supported Communist state of East Germany erected the Berlin Wall as a barrier to prevent movement between East and West. There is an urban myth that he should have said "Ich bin Berliner" ("I am from Berlin") and that by adding the article "ein" ("a"), he was a non-human Berliner; More about this at Wikipedia Henry (I am not a donut) Mu Please contribute to Obama if you can: http://my.barackobama.com/page/outreach/view/main/PListe4Obama If you appreciate this message, or my Obama blog, http://my.barackobama.com/page/community/blog/henrymu , then how about being my friend on the My.BarackObama.com network: http://my.barackobama.com/page/socialnet/register/33qzpcr2sl ________________________________________ From: Lisa Pease "Eich bin ein Berliner" means just what Kennedy meant - "I am a Berliner." I love how these CIA-spread myths end up as the gospel truth, when they are nothing of the sort. Even Keith Olbermann fell for this one. No, Kennedy did not say he was a donut. He said, "Eich bin ein Berliner." And if you look up Berliner in a German dictionary, you will find that while donut is o ne meaning, the other meaning, the one Kennedy was obviously saying, is this: "to be born in Berlin; to be a native Berliner; to be Berlin-born" I am never surprised to hear the ignorant say Kennedy said this "wrong," when he didn't. But my heart sank when good ol' Keith Olbermann fell for the disinformation. Wow. I guess if a few people say it, it's suddenly true, eh? Will all of you re ading this please help spread the TRUTH about what Kennedy said? No doubt this will come up in the next few days as Obama prepares his own version of such a speech for Berlin. Lisa Pease Blog: http://realhistoryarchives.blogspot.com Site: http://www.realhistoryarchives.com Book: The Assassinations: Probe Magazine on JFK, MLK, RFK and Malcolm X ------------------------------------------------------------------------- This email was sent to 283 members of Writers for Obama This email was sent from Lisa Pease lpease at gte.net Listserv email address: WritersforObama at groups.barackobama.com Your reply will be sent to: WritersforObama at groups.barackobama.com Unsubscribe or change your email settings: http://my.barackobama.com/page/group/WritersforObama/listserv-remove ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From takoitov at hotmail.com Tue Jul 22 17:40:22 2008 From: takoitov at hotmail.com (Ya Sam) Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2008 05:40:22 +0700 Subject: Theroux on Pynchon (a bit) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On the difficulty of Pynchon's books: 'I'm often in many many places left completely outside that cathedral, when I'd like to be a worshipper inside. I understand. maybe, 82% of his books' _________________________________________________________________ Explore the seven wonders of the world http://search.msn.com/results.aspx?q=7+wonders+world&mkt=en-US&form=QBRE From markekohut at yahoo.com Tue Jul 22 18:31:07 2008 From: markekohut at yahoo.com (Mark Kohut) Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2008 16:31:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: AtD (37) p.1048 great picnic, "the real America"? mayonnaise Message-ID: <463445.5561.qm@web38407.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Paul Mackin sez: The state picnics are well done. Been to a number of them. Monte Davis wrote: "I have only Texas, Maine, and mid-Atlantic picnics to go on, but the potato-salad paragraph on p. 1048 is pitch-perfect in both dialogue (OK, multiple mayonnaise monologues) and narration. It's up there with the best of Mamet or Elmore Leonard for American voice on the page." MD notices mayonnaise! I didn't. Cf. the mayonnaise motif (perhaps from its origin in Brautigan?) elsewhere. Is mayonaise Mid-America [P's word] metaphorically?? Therefore the real America? Great, grrreat bit on theories of potato salad, imho. Beautiful love of food writing.... Feels like this is part of TRPs vision of life in a community....lively, even sometimes, screaming, discussions about something --food---that matters to all, by all parties. Are community picnics, as so wonderfully captured herein, the vision of harmonic, small village America out of De Tocqueville, Hofstadter or, in the practicing, the theories of the Founding Fathers? P's baseline of love for the best of America? That 'old time America'? Merle, paranoid, {fearful]...."P.E." Pacific Electric--bad shit--- Any photo [of someone in real life] can be run through the rig [?] and their life since the taking to the present can be known..???? Uh, wow, yes?....runs through time past and ends in the present time with a PICTURE of where the person was RIGHT NOW?....like a movie of their real life?..[reel life?].........enough to make anyone paranoid....what one photograph can do; no wonder Pynchon might fear getting his picture taken.......(like how some computer programs can 'age' a face [Which program the NYTimes Book Review did with the famous Pynchon photo last year, got an aged Pynchon and, cruelly, less-than-thoughtlessly the editor/writer threw about the worst stereotype out (as a stupid joke, I guess.)]) I won't repeat it, being earnestly humorless about it. Only more than a computer simulation....the past CAUGHT. Imagine what spies could do with this....... What's it mean here, I ask???? From dpayne1912 at hotmail.com Tue Jul 22 22:49:23 2008 From: dpayne1912 at hotmail.com (David Payne) Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2008 03:49:23 +0000 Subject: Trek, Zone, Peaks Message-ID: Anyone solve this issue for Otto? Cuz I gotta friend in France suffering the same insult. On Mon, 21 Jul 2008 (03:29:50 -0700), Richard (richardryannyc at yahoo.com) wrote: > If the CBS site is doing IP address detection, which most big media sites are in fact doing these days, then I believe Otto would have to come in through some sort of proxy or VPN which is exposing a US-assigned IP address to the sites being browsed. >> On Mon, Jul 21, 2008 at 4:14 AM, Otto >> wrote: >> >>> Is it only open to US-viewers? >>> >>> "This content is currently unavailable." _________________________________________________________________ Time for vacation? WIN what you need- enter now! http://www.gowindowslive.com/summergiveaway/?ocid=tag_jlyhm From monte.davis at verizon.net Wed Jul 23 03:32:43 2008 From: monte.davis at verizon.net (Monte Davis) Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2008 04:32:43 -0400 Subject: AtD (37) p.1045 Merle R. appears, old farmland, flirting? In-Reply-To: <311438.73702.qm@web38408.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Mark Kohut muses: > Why does OBA have Lew and Merle come together here? Merle, > photographer and lightning rod salesman in film noir LA? > Where Hollywood is happening. Where modernity -- or a flickering electro-fictional projection, maybe all we get, maybe all there is -- is being packaged for mass distribution. Where we look to see how our heroes and goddesses behave (yo, Brangelina!), and all the stories trade DNA in elevator pitches. From monte.davis at verizon.net Wed Jul 23 03:48:05 2008 From: monte.davis at verizon.net (Monte Davis) Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2008 04:48:05 -0400 Subject: AtDTDA (37) 1046/47"I'd've let you do the cooking" In-Reply-To: <072220081525.15166.4885FBE70000146300003B3E2216566276040A0B0E0A9C0B020E0402070D019D@comcast.net> Message-ID: Robin sez: > *Born out of a need to justify exploitation, "The Age of > Reason" so ably parodied in Mason & Dixon was more like "The Age of > Rationalization." Not simply out of its need to explain away "the > supernatural" but also in the sense of narrowing options until the > line to the abattoir singles up, nice and smooth. Which was also the line away from routine childhood death by dysentery etc, slavery, hereditary nobility, and so many other nostalgic features. Not to fault the efficiency of the Modern Abbatoir, but somehow there are far more of us than in those sweet gracious holistic harmonious pre-Enlightenment times. From ottosell at googlemail.com Wed Jul 23 05:17:04 2008 From: ottosell at googlemail.com (Otto) Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2008 12:17:04 +0200 Subject: FW: Eich bin ein Berliner - NOT DONUT In-Reply-To: <001701c8ec47$d3d899c0$7b89cd40$@com> References: <001701c8ec47$d3d899c0$7b89cd40$@com> Message-ID: I've always expected Mr. Bush jr coming to Hamburg once ... I can almost hear him saying: "I'm a Hamburger!" From madame.brady at gmail.com Wed Jul 23 05:26:02 2008 From: madame.brady at gmail.com (Tara Brady) Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2008 11:26:02 +0100 Subject: Trek, Zone, Peaks In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: This site mirrors the CBS content. Go here for all Zone episodes... http://www.surfthechannel.com/show/television/The_Twilight_Zone.html The other shows you mention seem to be there, though not all the Peaks episodes. Sadly, for the complete suite, Europeans are still stuck with the rather pricey subscription fee demanded by... http://www.davidlynch.com/ Still, who needs TV that isn't bookended by Rod Serling? 2008/7/23 David Payne : > > Anyone solve this issue for Otto? Cuz I gotta friend in France suffering > the same insult. > > On Mon, 21 Jul 2008 (03:29:50 -0700), Richard (richardryannyc at yahoo.com) > wrote: > > > If the CBS site is doing IP address detection, which most big media sites > are in fact doing these days, then I believe Otto would have to come in > through some sort of proxy or VPN which is exposing a US-assigned IP address > to the sites being browsed. > > >> On Mon, Jul 21, 2008 at 4:14 AM, Otto > >> wrote: > >> > >>> Is it only open to US-viewers? > >>> > >>> "This content is currently unavailable." > > _________________________________________________________________ > Time for vacation? WIN what you need- enter now! > http://www.gowindowslive.com/summergiveaway/?ocid=tag_jlyhm > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From against.the.dave at gmail.com Wed Jul 23 05:35:24 2008 From: against.the.dave at gmail.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2008 05:35:24 -0500 Subject: Trek, Zone, Peaks In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Jul 23, 2008 at 5:26 AM, Tara Brady wrote: > This site mirrors the CBS content. > > http://www.surfthechannel.com/show/television/The_Twilight_Zone.html Thanks! There is a LOT on there ... http://www.surfthechannel.com/ From against.the.dave at gmail.com Wed Jul 23 06:24:00 2008 From: against.the.dave at gmail.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2008 06:24:00 -0500 Subject: Thomas Pynchon Message-ID: http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2008/jun/11/thomaspynchon From against.the.dave at gmail.com Wed Jul 23 06:38:07 2008 From: against.the.dave at gmail.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2008 06:38:07 -0500 Subject: Don DeLillo Message-ID: Did you know? DeLillo's face was once used by the New York Times to promote the car manufacturer Oldsmobile. http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2008/jun/11/dondelillo Would you buy a new car from this novelist? http://www.salon.com/media/poni/1998/07/22poni.html Authors of Intrigue http://www.nytimes.com/partners/microsites/intrigue/archive/archive.html We're sorry, access to http://www.nytimes.com/partners/microsites/intrigue/archive/archive.html has been blocked by the site owner via robots.txt. http://web.archive.org/web/*/http://www.nytimes.com/partners/microsites/intrigue/archive/archive.html From markekohut at yahoo.com Wed Jul 23 06:41:31 2008 From: markekohut at yahoo.com (Mark Kohut) Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2008 04:41:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: AtD (37) p.1049-1050 "Intolerance", changing the past, bi-location, multiple worlds Message-ID: <933181.14228.qm@web38405.mail.mud.yahoo.com> p. 1049-1050 "hallucinatory sets from the movie Intolerance [Or Love's Struggles Through the Ages]....remember bit on the the infinite varieties of love back in the Cyprian section? Sees Jardine go thru an "iron gate"--not good--, Carefree Court [obviously ironic] and sit at a luxurious pool, deciding something. Then Lew learns the machine can go into the past life of anyone's photo!.....even past events like the Times bombing can be seen (like surveillance cameras?).......but they have to get it "just right" or the people might choose a different 'future" [at that point in the past]. Does this remind anyone else of what has been said about quantum physics at the quantam level?....the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle in effect?..... "The uncertainty principle is related to the observer effect, with which it is often conflated. In the Copenhagen interpretation of quantum mechanics, the uncertainty principle is a theoretical limitation of how small this observer effect can be. Any measurement of the position with accuracy Δx collapses the quantum state making the standard deviation of the momentum Δp larger than . While this is true in all interpretations, in many modern interpretations of quantum mechanics (many-worlds and variants), the quantum state itself is the fundamental physical quantity, not the position or momentum. Taking this perspective, while the momentum and position are still uncertain, the uncertainty is an effect caused not just by observation, but by any entanglement with the environment." ----wikipedia This is always of the present, of course, whereas TRP has set up a similarity that can change the past.....linked to bi-location......as a metaphor, it implies if we do not look correctly at pictures in the past, the future from that point, therefore the present, can be different... Is this about, via metaphor, how we perceive our lives ultimately?.... "but thinking makes it so"---Shakespeare "usually to look back in the past it's got to be a negative value"---is this some kind of overarching generalization of a theme as stated?... "looking back---nostalgia? like Lot's wife?---is not a good thing?.... Is it a metaphor for we readers looking at History (the past)....if we had looked at it rightly, it would have been different?.....Since we have NOT seen History correctly, it has changed the present? a different path.....He remembers bi-location........Roswell is almost annoyed when Lew questions him about the subject's possible other lived lives.............Of course that is possible, knows Roswell. [‘Multiple Worlds,” blurted Nigel, who had floated in from elsewhere. ‘Precisely!’ cried the Professor. ‘The Ripper’s “Whitechapel” was a sort of momentary antechamber in space-time… one might imagine a giant railway depot, with thousands of gates disposed radially in all dimensions, leading to tracks of departure to all manner of alternative Histories…’ ] earlier in AtD. Roswell associations: He must be named after the most famous UFO incident (and place), although that did not happen until 1947. : "The United States military maintains that what was recovered was a top-secret research balloon that had crashed. Many UFO proponents believe the wreckage was of a crashed alien craft and that the military covered up the craft's recovery. "---wikipedia From robert_mahnke at earthlink.net Wed Jul 23 07:05:03 2008 From: robert_mahnke at earthlink.net (Robert Mahnke) Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2008 08:05:03 -0400 Subject: We are lost to any sense of a continuous tradition. Message-ID: <000301c8ecbc$572ad210$7801a8c0@Minerva> I saw this last night and thought it had curious echoes of AtD: Perhaps history in this century, though Eigenvalue, is rippled with gathers in its fabric such that if we are situated, as Stencil seemed to be, at the bottom of a fold, it's impossible to determine warp, woof or pattern anywhere else. By virtue, however, of existing in one gather it is assumed there are others, compartmented off into sinuous cycles each of which come to assume greater importance than the weave itself and destroy any continuity. Thus it is that we are charmed by the funny-looking automobiles of the '30's, the curious fashions of the '20's, the peculiar moral habits of our grandparents. We produce and attend musical comedies about them and are conned into a false memory, a phony nostalgia about what they were. We are accordingly lost to any sense of a continuous tradition. Perhaps if we lived on a crest, things would be different. We could at least see. V. 155-56 (1986 ed.). -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From markekohut at yahoo.com Wed Jul 23 08:20:09 2008 From: markekohut at yahoo.com (Mark Kohut) Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2008 06:20:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: We are lost to any sense of a continuous tradition. In-Reply-To: <000301c8ecbc$572ad210$7801a8c0@Minerva> Message-ID: <320283.40259.qm@web38404.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Perhaps if we > lived on a crest, things would be different. We could at > least see. > Do the Chums "live' on a crest, so to speak? --- On Wed, 7/23/08, Robert Mahnke wrote: > From: Robert Mahnke > Subject: We are lost to any sense of a continuous tradition. > To: pynchon-l at waste.org > Date: Wednesday, July 23, 2008, 8:05 AM > I saw this last night and thought it had curious echoes of > AtD: > > > > Perhaps history in this century, though Eigenvalue, is > rippled with gathers > in its fabric such that if we are situated, as Stencil > seemed to be, at the > bottom of a fold, it's impossible to determine warp, > woof or pattern > anywhere else. By virtue, however, of existing in one > gather it is assumed > there are others, compartmented off into sinuous cycles > each of which come > to assume greater importance than the weave itself and > destroy any > continuity. Thus it is that we are charmed by the > funny-looking automobiles > of the '30's, the curious fashions of the > '20's, the peculiar moral habits > of our grandparents. We produce and attend musical > comedies about them and > are conned into a false memory, a phony nostalgia about > what they were. We > are accordingly lost to any sense of a continuous > tradition. Perhaps if we > lived on a crest, things would be different. We could at > least see. > > > > V. 155-56 (1986 ed.). From robinlandseadel at comcast.net Wed Jul 23 08:55:46 2008 From: robinlandseadel at comcast.net (robinlandseadel at comcast.net) Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2008 13:55:46 +0000 Subject: AtdTDA: Your Answers Questioned Message-ID: <072320081355.11891.488738620003DDA600002E732214756402040A0B0E0A9C0B020E0402070D019D@comcast.net> Robert Mahnke: I saw this last night and thought it had curious echoes of AtD: Perhaps history in this century, though Eigenvalue, is rippled with gathers in its fabric such that if we are situated, as Stencil seemed to be, at the bottom of a fold, it�s impossible to determine warp, woof or pattern anywhere else. By virtue, however, of existing in one gather it is assumed there are others, compartmented off into sinuous cycles each of which come to assume greater importance than the weave itself and destroy any continuity. Thus it is that we are charmed by the funny-looking automobiles of the �30�s, the curious fashions of the �20�s, the peculiar moral habits of our grandparents. We produce and attend musical comedies about them and are conned into a false memory, a phony nostalgia about what they were. We are accordingly lost to any sense of a continuous tradition. Perhaps if we lived on a crest, things would be different. We could at least see. V. 155-56 (1986 ed.). And strong echos of Julius Evola as well: Modern civilization stands on one side and on the other the entirety of all the civilizations that have preceded it (for the West, we can put the dividing line at the end of the Middle Ages). At this point the rupture is complete. Apart from the multitudinous variety of its forms, premodern civilization, which we might as well call "traditional," means something quite different. For there are two worlds, one of which has separated itself by cutting off nearly every contact with the past. For the great majority of moderns, that means any possibility of understanding the traditional world has been completely lost. "The Hermetic Tradition", Julius Evola, page 14 Mark Kohut: Is it a metaphor for we readers looking at History (the past)....if we had looked at it rightly, it would have been different?.....Since we have NOT seen History correctly, it has changed the present? a different path.....He remembers bi-location........ Roswell is almost annoyed when Lew questions him about the subject's possible other lived lives .............Of course that is possible, knows Roswell. Yup, Area 51 revisited: "Scully said to Muldar: "Get me a Nun!" I mean, let us not forget the incredible wealth of cheap tricks and bottom bracket puns OBA employs�bilocation* is also a cheap trick, thus "Roswell." Pynchon is no mere satirist, he's a satirist devoted to Road Runner cartoons and really bad puns. The fabric of time [more like a chunk of Iceland Spar, come to think of it] is trespassed by anachronism everywhere�"Burgher King" anyone?�and on some level Yashmeen, Lew and Cyprian are trespassers from our time. *Echoing "Nick Danger�Third Eye in: 'Cut 'Em Off at the Past'", where discontinunities in the fabric of time form the center of the plot and the program ends with an interruption from FDR, announcing the United States' complete and total surrender to the Japanese. As the "NIck Danger" resumes we hear Nicky-nick-nick-nick-nick say: The great prince issues commands, Founds states, vests families with fiefs. Inferior people should not be employed. . . . .from Richard Wilhelm's translation from the original Chinese of "The Army" from the I Ching, OBA reiterating the shared theme of absurdist resistance�a hallmark of both Pynchon and the Firesign Theater. 7. Shih / The Army -- -- -- -- above K'un The Receptive, Earth -- -- -- -- ----- below K'an The Abysmal, Water -- -- The Judgement The Army. The army needs perseverance And a strong man. Good fortune without blame. The Image In the middle of the earth is water: The image of the Army. Thus the superior man increases his masses By generosity toward the people. The Lines Six at the beginning means: An army must set forth in proper order. If the order is not good, misfortune threatens. () Nine in the second place means: In the midst of the army. Good fortune. No blame. The king bestows a triple decoration. Six in the third place means: Perchance the army carries corpses in the wagon. Misfortune. Six in the fourth place means: The army retreats. No blame. () Six in the fifth place means: There is game in the field. It furthers one to catch it. Without blame. Let the eldest lead the army. The younger transports corpses; Then perseverance brings misfortune. Six at the top means: The great prince issues commands, Founds states, vests families with fiefs. Inferior people should not be employed. http://www.religiousworlds.com/taoism/ichingtx.html . From robert_mahnke at earthlink.net Wed Jul 23 09:02:05 2008 From: robert_mahnke at earthlink.net (Robert Mahnke) Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2008 10:02:05 -0400 (GMT-04:00) Subject: whoops Message-ID: <10563143.1216821725816.JavaMail.root@mswamui-bichon.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Sorry: In the first line, that should be "thought Eigenvalue". -----Original Message----- >From: robinlandseadel at comcast.net >Sent: Jul 23, 2008 9:55 AM >To: P-list >Subject: AtdTDA: Your Answers Questioned > > Robert Mahnke: > I saw this last night and thought it had curious echoes of AtD: > > Perhaps history in this century, though Eigenvalue, is rippled > with gathers in its fabric such that if we are situated, as > Stencil seemed to be, at the bottom of a fold, it’s impossible > to determine warp, woof or pattern anywhere else. By virtue, > however, of existing in one gather it is assumed there are > others, compartmented off into sinuous cycles each of which > come to assume greater importance than the weave itself and > destroy any continuity. Thus it is that we are charmed by the > funny-looking automobiles of the ‘30’s, the curious fashions of > the ‘20’s, the peculiar moral habits of our grandparents. We > produce and attend musical comedies about them and are > conned into a false memory, a phony nostalgia about what > they were. We are accordingly lost to any sense of a > continuous tradition. Perhaps if we lived on a crest, things > would be different. We could at least see. > > V. 155-56 (1986 ed.). > >And strong echos of Julius Evola as well: > > Modern civilization stands on one side and on the other > the entirety of all the civilizations that have preceded it > (for the West, we can put the dividing line at the end of > the Middle Ages). At this point the rupture is complete. > Apart from the multitudinous variety of its forms, > premodern civilization, which we might as well call > "traditional," means something quite different. For > there are two worlds, one of which has separated > itself by cutting off nearly every contact with the past. > For the great majority of moderns, that means any > possibility of understanding the traditional world has > been completely lost. > > "The Hermetic Tradition", Julius Evola, page 14 > > Mark Kohut: > Is it a metaphor for we readers looking at History > (the past)....if we had looked at it rightly, it would > have been different?.....Since we have NOT seen > History correctly, it has changed the present? > > a different path.....He remembers bi-location........ > Roswell is almost annoyed when Lew questions > him about the subject's possible other lived lives > .............Of course that is possible, knows Roswell. > >Yup, Area 51 revisited: >"Scully said to Muldar: >"Get me a Nun!" > >I mean, let us not forget the incredible wealth of cheap tricks >and bottom bracket puns OBA employs—bilocation* is also >a cheap trick, thus "Roswell." Pynchon is no mere satirist, >he's a satirist devoted to Road Runner cartoons and really >bad puns. The fabric of time [more like a chunk of Iceland >Spar, come to think of it] is trespassed by anachronism >everywhere—"Burgher King" anyone?—and on some level >Yashmeen, Lew and Cyprian are trespassers from our time. > >*Echoing "Nick Danger—Third Eye in: 'Cut 'Em Off at the Past'", >where discontinunities in the fabric of time form the center of >the plot and the program ends with an interruption from FDR, >announcing the United States' complete and total surrender >to the Japanese. As the "NIck Danger" resumes we hear >Nicky-nick-nick-nick-nick say: > > The great prince issues commands, > Founds states, vests families with fiefs. > Inferior people should not be employed. > >. . . .from Richard Wilhelm's translation from the original Chinese of >"The Army" from the I Ching, OBA reiterating the shared theme of >absurdist resistance—a hallmark of both Pynchon and the Firesign >Theater. > > 7. Shih / The Army > -- -- > -- -- above K'un The Receptive, Earth > -- -- > -- -- > ----- below K'an The Abysmal, Water > -- -- > The Judgement > The Army. The army needs perseverance > And a strong man. > Good fortune without blame. > The Image > In the middle of the earth is water: > The image of the Army. > Thus the superior man increases his masses > By generosity toward the people. > The Lines > Six at the beginning means: > An army must set forth in proper order. > If the order is not good, misfortune threatens. > () Nine in the second place means: > In the midst of the army. > Good fortune. No blame. > The king bestows a triple decoration. > Six in the third place means: > Perchance the army carries corpses in the wagon. > Misfortune. > Six in the fourth place means: > The army retreats. No blame. > () Six in the fifth place means: > There is game in the field. > It furthers one to catch it. > Without blame. > Let the eldest lead the army. > The younger transports corpses; > Then perseverance brings misfortune. > Six at the top means: > The great prince issues commands, > Founds states, vests families with fiefs. > Inferior people should not be employed. > >http://www.religiousworlds.com/taoism/ichingtx.html >. From robinlandseadel at comcast.net Wed Jul 23 09:33:41 2008 From: robinlandseadel at comcast.net (robinlandseadel at comcast.net) Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2008 14:33:41 +0000 Subject: whoops [Your Answers Questioned, lost to any sense of a continuous tradition.} Message-ID: <072320081433.13970.4887414500033E45000036922214756402040A0B0E0A9C0B020E0402070D019D@comcast.net> Well, thank Goddess that I read it as "thought". Ya musta had high quality intent when you tossed off this missive. Now mind you, if I fold staple and mutilate it. . . . "�Pro general continuation and in particular explication to your singular interrogation our asserveralation. Ladigent, pals will smile but me and Frisky Shorty, my inmate friend, as is uncommon struck on poplar poetry, and a few fleabedsides round at West Pauper Bosquet, was glad to beback again with chaps and just arguing friendlylike at the Doddercan Easehouse having a wee chatty with our hosty in his comfy estably over the old middlesex party and his moral turps, meaning the flu, pok, pox, and mizzles, grip, gripe , gleet and sprue, caries, rabies, numps and dumps." "Ole Whatzitsname", H.C.E randomly [completely] chosen page 523, so help me Cerridwen. . . . .and if that don't discontinue you. . . . Looking at the cover of the QP of AtD: http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/41fafkIky5L._SS500_.jpg . . . .the furturist painting rejects contours, the rounded, the natural in favor of light chopped into discontinuous squares, the sort of light/shadow relation found in electric streets at night, the folds and ripples in the lay of the land rendered invisible by the overlay of the modern nightscape of urban light. -------------- Original message ---------------------- From: Robert Mahnke > > Sorry: In the first line, that should be "thought Eigenvalue". From paul.mackin at verizon.net Wed Jul 23 10:00:14 2008 From: paul.mackin at verizon.net (Paul Mackin) Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2008 11:00:14 -0400 Subject: We are lost to any sense of a continuous tradition. In-Reply-To: <320283.40259.qm@web38404.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <320283.40259.qm@web38404.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4887477E.8080906@verizon.net> Mark Kohut wrote: > Perhaps if we > >> lived on a crest, things would be different. We could at >> least see. >> >> > Do the Chums "live' on a crest, so to speak? > Either that or the non line of sight conditions aren't too bad farther down in the valley. Don't people "see" into the future at various places in the book? Grammar question: At the crest would we be able to see "farther" into the future, or "further?" The teacher always said "farther" pertains to distance, but what pertains to space-time? > > --- On Wed, 7/23/08, Robert Mahnke wrote: > > >> From: Robert Mahnke >> Subject: We are lost to any sense of a continuous tradition. >> To: pynchon-l at waste.org >> Date: Wednesday, July 23, 2008, 8:05 AM >> I saw this last night and thought it had curious echoes of >> AtD: >> >> >> >> Perhaps history in this century, though Eigenvalue, is >> rippled with gathers >> in its fabric such that if we are situated, as Stencil >> seemed to be, at the >> bottom of a fold, it's impossible to determine warp, >> woof or pattern >> anywhere else. By virtue, however, of existing in one >> gather it is assumed >> there are others, compartmented off into sinuous cycles >> each of which come >> to assume greater importance than the weave itself and >> destroy any >> continuity. Thus it is that we are charmed by the >> funny-looking automobiles >> of the '30's, the curious fashions of the >> '20's, the peculiar moral habits >> of our grandparents. We produce and attend musical >> comedies about them and >> are conned into a false memory, a phony nostalgia about >> what they were. We >> are accordingly lost to any sense of a continuous >> tradition. Perhaps if we >> lived on a crest, things would be different. We could at >> least see. >> >> >> >> V. 155-56 (1986 ed.). >> > > > > > > From markekohut at yahoo.com Wed Jul 23 11:26:38 2008 From: markekohut at yahoo.com (Mark Kohut) Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2008 09:26:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: from a website: on further and the future Message-ID: <38895.87359.qm@web38406.mail.mud.yahoo.com> . further into the future, this could ultimately allow quadriplegics and paraplegics to walk again. Other applications are likely to include correcting the faulty circuits that create epileptic episodes and creating transport systems for slow release of insulin to diabetics. From miksaapja at gmail.com Wed Jul 23 11:48:22 2008 From: miksaapja at gmail.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?J=E1nos_Sz=E9kely?=) Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2008 18:48:22 +0200 Subject: GR technical question - P.A. Message-ID: <8ad436340807230948i5af72da5uff742c2e9073f77@mail.gmail.com> I need some help with a piece of communications technology. In GR (the U-boat scene), V388.34 , "there's a long smash of static out of the P.A." Now what does P.A. stand for? Thx, János -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From paul.mackin at verizon.net Wed Jul 23 12:35:28 2008 From: paul.mackin at verizon.net (Paul Mackin) Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2008 13:35:28 -0400 Subject: We are lost to any sense of a continuous tradition. In-Reply-To: <000301c8ecbc$572ad210$7801a8c0@Minerva> References: <000301c8ecbc$572ad210$7801a8c0@Minerva> Message-ID: <48876BE0.7000600@verizon.net> Robert Mahnke wrote: > > I saw this last night and thought it had curious echoes of AtD: > > Perhaps history in this century, though Eigenvalue, is rippled with > gathers in its fabric such that if we are situated, as Stencil seemed > to be, at the bottom of a fold, it’s impossible to determine warp, > woof or pattern anywhere else. By virtue, however, of existing in one > gather it is assumed there are others, compartmented off into sinuous > cycles each of which come to assume greater importance than the weave > itself and destroy any continuity. Thus it is that we are charmed by > the funny-looking automobiles of the ‘30’s, the curious fashions of > the ‘20’s, the peculiar moral habits of our grandparents. We produce > and attend musical comedies about them and are conned into a false > memory, a phony nostalgia about what they were. We are accordingly > lost to any sense of a continuous tradition. Perhaps if we lived on a > crest, things would be different. We could at least see. > > V. 155-56 (1986 ed.). > Retired Jean-Luc Godard seems to assign some blame for the condition noted by Eigenvalue on the current practice of filming in digital. Today, living in “self-imposed exile” in Switzerland, Mr. Godard told Mr. Brody that young filmmakers “don’t know the past” and that “with digital, there is no past, not even technically,” because looking at a previous shot “doesn’t take any time to get there. ... There’s an entire time that no longer exist (book review in today's NY Times) http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/23/books/23basi.html?ref=books From against.the.dave at gmail.com Wed Jul 23 12:50:29 2008 From: against.the.dave at gmail.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2008 12:50:29 -0500 Subject: GR technical question - P.A. In-Reply-To: <8ad436340807230948i5af72da5uff742c2e9073f77@mail.gmail.com> References: <8ad436340807230948i5af72da5uff742c2e9073f77@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Jul 23, 2008 at 11:48 AM, János Székely wrote: > I need some help with a piece of communications technology. > In GR (the U-boat scene), V388.34 , "there's a long smash of static out of > the P.A." > Now what does P.A. stand for? Public Address (System) From miksaapja at gmail.com Wed Jul 23 13:00:12 2008 From: miksaapja at gmail.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?J=E1nos_Sz=E9kely?=) Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2008 20:00:12 +0200 Subject: GR technical question - P.A. In-Reply-To: References: <8ad436340807230948i5af72da5uff742c2e9073f77@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <8ad436340807231100l49ae6e6esca528f1304aeed08@mail.gmail.com> Thx. That means basically a loudspeaker in submarine context? 2008/7/23 Dave Monroe : > On Wed, Jul 23, 2008 at 11:48 AM, János Székely > wrote: > > > I need some help with a piece of communications technology. > > In GR (the U-boat scene), V388.34 , "there's a long smash of static out > of > > the P.A." > > Now what does P.A. stand for? > > Public Address (System) > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From against.the.dave at gmail.com Wed Jul 23 13:30:46 2008 From: against.the.dave at gmail.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2008 13:30:46 -0500 Subject: GR technical question - P.A. In-Reply-To: <8ad436340807231100l49ae6e6esca528f1304aeed08@mail.gmail.com> References: <8ad436340807230948i5af72da5uff742c2e9073f77@mail.gmail.com> <8ad436340807231100l49ae6e6esca528f1304aeed08@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Jul 23, 2008 at 1:00 PM, János Székely wrote: > Thx. > That means basically a loudspeaker in submarine context? Exactly. From against.the.dave at gmail.com Wed Jul 23 13:46:05 2008 From: against.the.dave at gmail.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2008 13:46:05 -0500 Subject: GR technical question - P.A. In-Reply-To: <300D3CC3638240729551E05735F24E1E@SimonBryquerPC> References: <8ad436340807230948i5af72da5uff742c2e9073f77@mail.gmail.com> <8ad436340807231100l49ae6e6esca528f1304aeed08@mail.gmail.com> <300D3CC3638240729551E05735F24E1E@SimonBryquerPC> Message-ID: On Wed, Jul 23, 2008 at 1:40 PM, Simon Bryquer wrote: > Actually PA means Public Address via a loudspeaker. Over a Public Address (P.A.) system ... From robinlandseadel at comcast.net Wed Jul 23 15:45:14 2008 From: robinlandseadel at comcast.net (robinlandseadel at comcast.net) Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2008 20:45:14 +0000 Subject: GR technical question - P.A. Message-ID: <072320082045.16097.4887985A000334B200003EE12215578674040A0B0E0A9C0B020E0402070D019D@comcast.net> Public Address system. TRP's keen on distortion and discontinuity, haven't you noticed? -------------- Original message ---------------------- From: "J�nos Sz�kely" > I need some help with a piece of communications technology. > In GR (the U-boat scene), V388.34 , "there's a long smash of static out of > the P.A." > Now what does P.A. stand for? > > Thx, > J�nos > -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: "J�nos Sz�kely" Subject: GR technical question - P.A. Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2008 17:15:39 +0000 Size: 764 URL: From scuffling at gmail.com Wed Jul 23 16:23:29 2008 From: scuffling at gmail.com (Henry) Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2008 17:23:29 -0400 Subject: AtD Audio Book Message-ID: <00bc01c8ed0a$5b5c2340$121469c0$@com> Has anyone heard AtD on CD? http://austinpubliclibraryblog.blogspot.com/2008/07/dont-forget-audiobooks.html Henry (Doh-nut) Mu Please contribute to Obama if you can: http://my.barackobama.com/page/outreach/view/main/PListe4Obama If you appreciate this message, or my Obama blog, http://my.barackobama.com/page/community/blog/henrymu , then how about being my friend on the My.BarackObama.com network: http://my.barackobama.com/page/socialnet/register/33qzpcr2sl From sbryquer at nyc.rr.com Wed Jul 23 13:40:42 2008 From: sbryquer at nyc.rr.com (Simon Bryquer) Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2008 14:40:42 -0400 Subject: GR technical question - P.A. In-Reply-To: References: <8ad436340807230948i5af72da5uff742c2e9073f77@mail.gmail.com> <8ad436340807231100l49ae6e6esca528f1304aeed08@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <300D3CC3638240729551E05735F24E1E@SimonBryquerPC> Actually PA means Public Address via a loudspeaker. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave Monroe" To: "János Székely" Cc: "Pynchon-l" Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2008 2:30 PM Subject: Re: GR technical question - P.A. > On Wed, Jul 23, 2008 at 1:00 PM, János Székely > wrote: > >> Thx. >> That means basically a loudspeaker in submarine context? > > Exactly. From wilsonistrey at gmail.com Wed Jul 23 17:08:42 2008 From: wilsonistrey at gmail.com (Brock Vond) Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2008 18:08:42 -0400 Subject: Enzian and Tchitcherine In-Reply-To: <830c13f40807180811g25b9aa8jdb69f5ccad9bd9bb@mail.gmail.com> References: <830c13f40807171130s635430aaod31f5e9297a91b74@mail.gmail.com> <7d461dc80807180634k23e8a77dvef83faea2f10f3f6@mail.gmail.com> <830c13f40807180811g25b9aa8jdb69f5ccad9bd9bb@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: i think / agree with critics like Eddins and Moore... it's because tchitcherine and slothrop are both terrified of (and seeking) "blackness" (S-Gerat [sic?] and Enzian [sic]) they also double each other through most of the novel... both quests have holy centers (test stand and Kirghiz light) both are monitored by shadow-powers... both experience a magical removal from the text... (slothrop literally and T- through Geli's earthly magic).... B If you trace out Gottfried and Slothrop's geographical journies... they are both opposite parabolas... Slothrop from London to S. France to N Germany... Gottfreid... well... Peenemunde [sic] in the rocket therefore creating his arc... to London (if we assume that regardless of the book's fantastical possibilities and blicero's obsessions, Gottfried met a death somewhere in London the parabolas are mirror images) ...and I wonder what one would find if they compared Slothrop and T-'s or T- and Enzian's... sorry for misspellings of names... i didn't feel like checking and correcting. On Jul 18, 2008, at 11:11 AM, rich wrote: > Tchitcherine does mention while being interrogated that he objects to > being passed over which connects to the Herero's concept of same > during their extermination and Vaslav's own failure to move past the > leading edges of revelation > > rich > > On Fri, Jul 18, 2008 at 9:34 AM, David Morris > wrote: >> He's trying to eliminate his "shadow," his black (br)other. >> >> On Thu, Jul 17, 2008 at 1:30 PM, rich >> wrote: >>> almost done with another re-read of GR. Can anyone adequately >>> describe the reason Tchitcherine is obsessed with killing his half- >>> brother Enzian? don't really understand his personal motivation >>> here--is it just a Cain and Abel deal? >>> >>> rich >>> >> From wilsonistrey at gmail.com Wed Jul 23 17:11:17 2008 From: wilsonistrey at gmail.com (Brock Vond) Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2008 18:11:17 -0400 Subject: AtD Audio Book In-Reply-To: <00bc01c8ed0a$5b5c2340$121469c0$@com> References: <00bc01c8ed0a$5b5c2340$121469c0$@com> Message-ID: Yeah - I have it on my ipod... it's broken into sections but i just used this audiobook builder program to make it one track... (it's over like 40 hours) and the ipod remembers the last position... etc.. it's actually wonderful to read it with the book which is how I'm reading ATD the second time around. however... its the first audiobook I've ever listened to so i really know what to expect but I am enjoying it. and if anyone knows how to BitTorrent... its out there... On Jul 23, 2008, at 5:23 PM, Henry wrote: > Has anyone heard AtD on CD? > > http://austinpubliclibraryblog.blogspot.com/2008/07/dont-forget-audiobooks.html > The list includes MP3-CDs which need CD players that support MP3 > files. Most new CD players and many DVD players have that > capability, including CD players in newer cars. This new format > holds up to 16 1/2 recording hours so most books will be entirely > recorded onto one disc. Not all titles are available as an MP3-CD so > we still order plenty of the other kind. Against the Day by Thomas > Pynchon contains 42 sound discs! > > Henry (Doh-nut) Mu > > Please contribute to Obama if you can: http://my.barackobama.com/page/outreach/view/main/PListe4Obama > > If you appreciate this message, or my Obama blog, http://my.barackobama.com/page/community/blog/henrymu > , then how about being my friend on the My.BarackObama.com > network: http://my.barackobama.com/page/socialnet/register/33qzpcr2sl > > From malignd at aol.com Wed Jul 23 17:35:23 2008 From: malignd at aol.com (malignd at aol.com) Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2008 18:35:23 -0400 Subject: GR technical question - P.A. In-Reply-To: References: <8ad436340807230948i5af72da5uff742c2e9073f77@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <8CABB2B8792F9C5-674-2184@webmail-da09.sysops.aol.com> Maybe I should apologize to ppetto ... I need some help with a piece of communications technology. > In GR (the U-boat scene), V388.34 , "there's a long smash of static out of > the P.A." > Now what does P.A. stand for? Public Address (System) -----Original Message----- From: Dave Monroe To: János Székely Cc: Pynchon-l Sent: Wed, 23 Jul 2008 1:50 pm Subject: Re: GR technical question - P.A. On Wed, Jul 23, 2008 at 11:48 AM, János Székely wrote: > I need some help with a piece of communications technology. > In GR (the U-boat scene), V388.34 , "there's a long smash of static out of > the P.A." > Now what does P.A. stand for? Public Address (System) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From robinlandseadel at comcast.net Wed Jul 23 18:52:21 2008 From: robinlandseadel at comcast.net (robinlandseadel at comcast.net) Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2008 23:52:21 +0000 Subject: Enzian and Tchitcherine Message-ID: <072320082352.3769.4887C43500093A9100000EB92214756402040A0B0E0A9C0B020E0402070D019D@comcast.net> Brock Vond : they also double each other through most of the novel... both quests have holy centers (test stand and Kirghiz light) both are monitored by shadow-powers... both experience a magical removal from the text... (slothrop literally and T- through Geli's earthly magic).... I like, I like. . . . And Light�Explosion�Revelation, lurking behind it all, the Tunguska event. From markekohut at yahoo.com Wed Jul 23 19:06:21 2008 From: markekohut at yahoo.com (Mark Kohut) Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2008 17:06:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: AtD (37) p.1050, Paranoia runs deep....more musings prob. for nought Message-ID: <220380.34659.qm@web38406.mail.mud.yahoo.com> P 1050 What's it all mean--the ability to change the past? Is it a metaphor for a kind of regret cancellation in one's life? That chance to "if only I could go back and do something different in that situation?" Another machine--- as a "dangerous" technological device, it is NOT a good thing in TRPs world?---that promises a backward kind of perfection?...Or, if the owners get it "just right" is the best privacy invasion of all time?.The "perfect" life detector with no escape? EVERYTHING you have ever done could always be seen? (Reminds me of God's eye (Western Christian version) and of the Final Judgment, as literally expressed when I was younger). Lew used to have these bilocational experiences in England...he would "go off" somewhere else....a kind of mind travel metaphor?......then just 'dreams' and diminishment 'with no time to brood".....like all the choices we felt we could have made but didn't, then got set into our 'real' one-and-only lives?... "Gorillas" = brutes of guys. thugs. "P.Q." Paranoia Quotient? When Roswell worries that Hollywood types will do to him and his machine what he fears was done to Louis Le Prince, who was real, "makin' it all disappear might not be enough for them"?...is this about Hollywood America revising its past? Making it all disappear? Able to eliminate all the hidden 'truths'--injustices, violence Lotsa the 'thoughts' here remind of the spy chapter to me....fear-mongering with fear of spying everywhere... From sladflob at gmail.com Thu Jul 24 01:14:03 2008 From: sladflob at gmail.com (James Pinakis) Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2008 14:14:03 +0800 Subject: GR technical question - P.A. In-Reply-To: <072320082045.16097.4887985A000334B200003EE12215578674040A0B0E0A9C0B020E0402070D019D@comcast.net> References: <072320082045.16097.4887985A000334B200003EE12215578674040A0B0E0A9C0B020E0402070D019D@comcast.net> Message-ID: <48881DAB.6020908@gmail.com> > Public Address system. TRP's keen on distortion > and discontinuity, haven't you noticed? I'm still amazed at figuring out that the sentence Jumped by a skyful of MEs and no way out. (p151) is sufficient to imply that Terence Overbaby is dead. If not for the internet I would have thought an ME was a medical examiner. james (first post and working ever so slowly through GR) From isread at btinternet.com Thu Jul 24 01:42:54 2008 From: isread at btinternet.com (Paul Nightingale) Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2008 07:42:54 +0100 Subject: Atdtda28: Once he would have said, 788-789 Message-ID: <000301c8ed58$8084c930$818e5b90$@com> We are left wondering what will happen to Prance (his "uncertain fate", 787) and then rejoin Kit, going back to what has already happened: "Kit meantime had fallen in ..." etc (788). If Prance has been "taken aloft" (787) by the Chums, Kit has been caught up in "a band of brodyagi" (788) for whom progress is unpredictable: "... things interrupt, detours happen". This aptly describes Kit's own experience. However, if Topor's exegesis suggests the random nature of existence, his speech is interrupted by the narrative voice explaining Topor's status as a master of, one who imposes 'order' on, nature: "with a single ax [he] could do every job ..." etc. And then: "They had devised a steam distillery ..." etc. The lengthy parenthesis inserted into Topor's speech is indeed an interruption or detour, and Kit himself goes on to deviate from what "[o]nce [he] would have said ..." etc. Passive, he is speechless, unable to use the word "vector", unable to invoke with satisfaction Yashmeen's holy wanderers. Further, he is marginalised: "Following the sound ..." etc. And: "At night he heard ..." etc. He bears witness here to what has just happened, a "cleared right-of-way", then "track running between the trees". Understanding is produced, order imposed. From monte.davis at verizon.net Thu Jul 24 04:57:24 2008 From: monte.davis at verizon.net (Monte Davis) Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2008 05:57:24 -0400 Subject: AtdTDA: Your Answers Questioned In-Reply-To: <072320081355.11891.488738620003DDA600002E732214756402040A0B0E0A9C0B020E0402070D019D@comcast.net> Message-ID: <7B821253CBAD4D2F9AACED8702BF5149@MSI1> Robin quotes Evola: > For > there are two worlds, one of which has separated > itself by cutting off nearly every contact with the past. > For the great majority of moderns, that means any > possibility of understanding the traditional world has > been completely lost. Yes, yes... And yet... this is another instance of one of the master tropes of *modernity*, that we're adrift after NNN years or centuries of restful anchor. And it always feels so right. And yet i8t may be useful to raise two partial challenges: 1) Among the spinoffs of modernity are history and the historical sciences (archaeology, paleontogy, paleo-this and that, all the way to Big Bang cosmology). With their aid, we in fact *know* much more about the past than pre-moderns did. I love Morte d'Arthur and The Once and Future King, but neither has much to do with what actually happened in the British isles 500-1400 AD (and White knew that much better than Malory had). Wren Provenance's Anasazi rock drawings tell an important story, but I don't trust its "truth" much past a couple generations -- the historical sciences at least hold promise that you, feckless untethered Robin, could have a clearer picture of what proto-Anasazi were doing in 500 AD than the Anasazi of 1000 AD did. 2) Could psychological projection of the family constellation be at work here? When I was a child, I was encountering weird new "I don't know what to do here" situations all the time - but there were the grownups, who had it all sussed out (and, even though they *claimed* to have been kids once themselves, had obviously been grownups forever). For what it's worth, my own suspicion is that the sensation of "all is off-kilter in a world changing Too Damn Fast" got going about the time we started making fire and knapping flint, if not before. Not that there hasn't been acceleration, but with Einstein I have doubts that there ever was anything corresponding to this reified, hypostasized notion of "at rest"... From markekohut at yahoo.com Thu Jul 24 06:32:30 2008 From: markekohut at yahoo.com (Mark Kohut) Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2008 04:32:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: AtD (37) Rectilinearity, decky-dancing and orgies Message-ID: <767173.45998.qm@web38404.mail.mud.yahoo.com> P 1051-1052 Emilio's toilet bowl reading leads Lew to Mr. and Mrs. Deuce and Lake Kindred's place. She appears in a 'rectilinear' mist---not a good mist. More of TRPs right angles and bad linearity. Immediate sex ensues--'nothing personal out here, just happens a lot" in Hollywoodland. Decky-dance. Lake likes it verbally dirty and "like an animal". The return of the repressed in her suburban domesticity? Adultery with a stranger, no less. (But we soon learn that Deuce took her to Hollywood 'orgies"---"believe that is a soft 'g'." ) Where Encarnation and her hubby knew each other. From markekohut at yahoo.com Thu Jul 24 06:52:15 2008 From: markekohut at yahoo.com (Mark Kohut) Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2008 04:52:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: P-related--charisma and its rationalization Message-ID: <421011.1489.qm@web38402.mail.mud.yahoo.com> "In the wake of World War II, many Germans view charismatic leadership with mistrust." >From a news article today. From robinlandseadel at comcast.net Thu Jul 24 09:19:48 2008 From: robinlandseadel at comcast.net (robinlandseadel at comcast.net) Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2008 14:19:48 +0000 Subject: AtdTDA: Your Answers Questioned 410/411, 830 Message-ID: <072420081419.24674.48888F84000C0682000060622215578674040A0B0E0A9C0B020E0402070D019D@comcast.net> I know I've said it before, but with your indulgence I'll repeat it again: The man is a satirist and Against the Day lives in its many moments of high paradox and low humor. I've got a lovely little old fashioned flamenco guitar with a Dean Markley electronic tuner attached via some modern plastic marvel of an adhesive, there's acrylic fingernails glued via cyanoacrylic to my fingers that allow me get some tone out of the lovely little girl. All this modern technology to evoke muses long out of date�I'm typing on a state-of-the-art personal computer with a buncha like-mined hooligans out there in the ayther�the entire notion of techno-pagan is just too. . . .I know a paradox when I trip, stumble and fall over it, and paradox is my business [organ stab] ! ! ! There was the era of the expansion of corporations like Pynchon & Company, working towards modernization and in the process creating wage slavery. Then, the chasm of WWI, the first mechanized, automated war, "Death From Above." And then, there's our era, the era of the trespassers: A young person of neglected aspect, holding a bottle of some reddish liquid, accosted the boys.. "You're the ones lookin fer Alonzo Meatman, I'll bet." "Maybe," replied Darby, reaching for and grasping his regulation issue "preserver." "Who wants to know?" Their interlocutor began to shiver, to look around the room with increasingly violent jerks of the head. "They . . . they . . ." "Come, man, get a grip on yourself," admonished Lindsay. "Who are this 'they' to whom you refer?" But the youngster was shaking violently now, his eyeballs, jittering in their orbits, gone wild with fright. Around the edges of his form, a strange magenta-and-green aura had begun to flicker, as if from a source somewhere behind him, growing more intense as he himself faded from view, until second later nothing was left but a kind of stain in the air where he had been, a warping of the light as through ancient window-glass. The bottle he had been holding, having remained behind, fell to the floor with a crash that seemed curiously prolonged. "Rats," muttered Darby, watching its contents soak into the sawdust. "and here I was hankering after a 'slug' of that stuff." AtD pages 410/411 I personally fear the day that PSP's get so souped-up that eleven-year olds, enabled by hot-rod time machine technology [them computers are gettin' scary fast�what if they catch up with themselves?] start playing with the past and Loki-like [hey, were talkin' eleven-year olds here] wreak havok. Tom LeClair in his Bookforum review of AtD "Lead Zeppelin" plucked out this passage as representing the author's thoughts on the nature and meaning of Against the Day: The Book of the Masked . . . [was] filled with encrypted field-notes and occult scientific passages of a dangerousness one could at least appreciate, though more perhaps for what it promised than for what it presented in such impenetrable code, its sketch of a mindscape whose layers emerged one on another as from a mist, a distant country of painful complexity, an all but unmappable flow of letters and numbers that passed into and out of the guise of the other, not to mention images, from faint and spidery sketches to a full spectrum of inks and pastels . . . visions of the unsuspected, breaches in the Creation where something else had had a chance to be luminously glimpsed. Ways in which God chose to hide within the light of day, not a full list, for the list was probably endless, but chance encounters with details of God's unseen world. AtD page 853 http://www.bookforum.com/archive/dec_06/leclair.html For whatever reason, OBA spends a lot of words and energy pointing to Hermetics in AtD. http://www.hermetics.com/ -------------- Original message ---------------------- From: "Monte Davis" > Robin quotes Evola: > > > For > > there are two worlds, one of which has separated > > itself by cutting off nearly every contact with the past. > > For the great majority of moderns, that means any > > possibility of understanding the traditional world has > > been completely lost. > > Yes, yes... And yet... this is another instance of one of the master tropes > of *modernity*, that we're adrift after NNN years or centuries of restful > anchor. And it always feels so right. And yet i8t may be useful to raise two > partial challenges: > > 1) Among the spinoffs of modernity are history and the historical sciences > (archaeology, paleontogy, paleo-this and that, all the way to Big Bang > cosmology). With their aid, we in fact *know* much more about the past than > pre-moderns did. I love Morte d'Arthur and The Once and Future King, but > neither has much to do with what actually happened in the British isles > 500-1400 AD (and White knew that much better than Malory had). Wren > Provenance's Anasazi rock drawings tell an important story, but I don't > trust its "truth" much past a couple generations -- the historical sciences > at least hold promise that you, feckless untethered Robin, could have a > clearer picture of what proto-Anasazi were doing in 500 AD than the Anasazi > of 1000 AD did. > > 2) Could psychological projection of the family constellation be at work > here? When I was a child, I was encountering weird new "I don't know what to > do here" situations all the time - but there were the grownups, who had it > all sussed out (and, even though they *claimed* to have been kids once > themselves, had obviously been grownups forever). > > For what it's worth, my own suspicion is that the sensation of "all is > off-kilter in a world changing Too Damn Fast" got going about the time we > started making fire and knapping flint, if not before. Not that there hasn't > been acceleration, but with Einstein I have doubts that there ever was > anything corresponding to this reified, hypostasized notion of "at rest"... From paul.mackin at verizon.net Thu Jul 24 09:37:40 2008 From: paul.mackin at verizon.net (Paul Mackin) Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2008 10:37:40 -0400 Subject: AtD (37) p.1050, Paranoia runs deep....more musings prob. for nought In-Reply-To: <220380.34659.qm@web38406.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <220380.34659.qm@web38406.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <488893B4.1090606@verizon.net> Mark Kohut wrote: > P 1050 > > What's it all mean--the ability to change the past? Is it a metaphor for a kind of regret cancellation in one's life? That chance to "if only I could go back and do something different in that situation?" Another machine--- as a "dangerous" technological device, it is NOT a good thing in TRPs world?---that promises a backward kind of perfection?...Or, if the owners get it "just right" is the best privacy invasion of all time?.The "perfect" life detector with no escape? EVERYTHING you have ever done could always be seen? (Reminds me of God's eye (Western Christian version) and of the Final Judgment, as literally expressed when I was younger). > Probably all these things, but you can be sure that, with Pynchon involved, entropy and information loss are lurking in the background. If the world is postulated as a network of relationships (no things, only processes) that involve nothing but information passing from observer to observer, then there are bound to be "disagreements" about what actually happened. (who was located where) > > Lew used to have these bilocational experiences in England...he would "go off" somewhere else....a kind of mind travel metaphor?......then just 'dreams' and diminishment 'with no time to brood".....like all the choices we felt we could have made but didn't, then got set into our 'real' one-and-only lives?... > > "Gorillas" = brutes of guys. thugs. > > "P.Q." Paranoia Quotient? > > When Roswell worries that Hollywood types will do to him and his machine what he fears was done to Louis Le Prince, who was real, "makin' it all disappear might not be enough for them"?...is this about Hollywood America revising its past? Making it all disappear? Able to eliminate all the hidden 'truths'--injustices, violence > There are other ways besides information loss to alter reality. Goons Lawyers Just watched the dvds of the first season of "Damages," the FX legal drama. > Lotsa the 'thoughts' here remind of the spy chapter to me....fear-mongering > with fear of spying everywhere... > > > > > > From against.the.dave at gmail.com Thu Jul 24 11:39:51 2008 From: against.the.dave at gmail.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2008 11:39:51 -0500 Subject: Inverted World Message-ID: Inverted World By Christopher Priest Afterword by John Clute The city is winched along tracks through a devastated land full of hostile tribes. Rails must be freshly laid ahead of the city and carefully removed in its wake. Rivers and mountains present nearly insurmountable challenges to the ingenuity of the city's engineers. But if the city does not move, it will fall farther and farther behind the "optimum" into the crushing gravitational field that has transformed life on Earth. The only alternative to progress is death. The secret directorate that governs the city makes sure that its inhabitants know nothing of this. Raised in common in crèches, nurtured on synthetic food, prevented above all from venturing outside the closed circuit of the city, they are carefully sheltered from the dire necessities that have come to define human existence. And yet the city is in crisis. The people are growing restive, the population is dwindling, and the rulers know that, for all their efforts, slowly but surely the city is slipping ever farther behind the optimum. Helward Mann is a member of the city's elite. Better than anyone, he knows how tenuous is the city's continued existence. But the world—he is about to discover—is infinitely stranger than the strange world he believes he knows so well. http://www.nybooks.com/shop/product?usca_p=t&product_id=7959 From against.the.dave at gmail.com Thu Jul 24 11:59:14 2008 From: against.the.dave at gmail.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2008 11:59:14 -0500 Subject: Anathem Message-ID: Anathem By Neal Stephenson Price: $29.95 On Sale: 9/9/2008 Formats: Hardcover | E-Book Anathem, the latest invention by the New York Times bestselling author of Cryptonomicon and The Baroque Cycle, is a magnificent creation: a work of great scope, intelligence, and imagination that ushers readers into a recognizable—yet strangely inverted—world. Fraa Erasmas is a young avout living in the Concent of Saunt Edhar, a sanctuary for mathematicians, scientists, and philosophers, protected from the corrupting influences of the outside "saecular" world by ancient stone, honored traditions, and complex rituals. Over the centuries, cities and governments have risen and fallen beyond the concent's walls. Three times during history's darkest epochs violence born of superstition and ignorance has invaded and devastated the cloistered mathic community. Yet the avout have always managed to adapt in the wake of catastrophe, becoming out of necessity even more austere and less dependent on technology and material things. And Erasmas has no fear of the outside—the Extramuros—for the last of the terrible times was long, long ago. Now, in celebration of the week-long, once-in-a-decade rite of Apert, the fraas and suurs prepare to venture beyond the concent's gates—at the same time opening them wide to welcome the curious "extras" in. During his first Apert as a fraa, Erasmas eagerly anticipates reconnecting with the landmarks and family he hasn't seen since he was "collected." But before the week is out, both the existence he abandoned and the one he embraced will stand poised on the brink of cataclysmic change. Powerful unforeseen forces jeopardize the peaceful stability of mathic life and the established ennui of the Extramuros—a threat that only an unsteady alliance of saecular and avout can oppose—as, one by one, Erasmas and his colleagues, teachers, and friends are summoned forth from the safety of the concent in hopes of warding off global disaster. Suddenly burdened with a staggering responsibility, Erasmas finds himself a major player in a drama that will determine the future of his world—as he sets out on an extraordinary odyssey that will carry him to the most dangerous, inhospitable corners of the planet . . . and beyond. http://www.harpercollins.com/books/9780061474095/Anathem/index.aspx First Look books on offer Entry Due 5/30/2008, Drawing held 5/31/2008, Review due 7/1/2008 If you're interested in reviewing this book and you're already a member: Sign in at top right. Not a member? Sign up now! http://www.harpercollins.com/Members/FirstLook/title.aspx?titleid=1448 Anathem and Long Now http://blog.longnow.org/2008/07/21/anathem-and-long-now/ From markekohut at yahoo.com Thu Jul 24 12:51:12 2008 From: markekohut at yahoo.com (Mark Kohut) Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2008 10:51:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: NP but..London, 1944, Julie Andrews, age 9 Message-ID: <324064.51281.qm@web38407.mail.mud.yahoo.com> "by the summer of 1944, The Germans were sending pilotless aircraft---literally flying bombs---known as 'doodlebugs' to England. We would hear the pulsating drone of their approach, then there would be a sudden silence as the engine cut out, followed by an unforgettable whistling sound as the missile hurtled toward the earth. If the aircraft cut out directly overhead, one was reasonably sure of being safe, since the doodlebugs had a habit of veering at the last second. If they cut out some distance away, the danger was considerable. .......I remember the nights especially." ........................................................................... 'the raids were relentless'............................................. My mother devised a time-saving idea. I was able to tell the difference between one of our own fighter aircraft and a German doodlebug. The minute the air raid siren went off, I was dispatched to sit on top of our shelter with a beach stool, an umbrella, a tiny pair of opera glasses, and a whistle..[When I] heard the approach of a doodlebug, I'd blow my whistle. The trouble was that all the neighbors began to rely on my whistle, as well. The day came when it was simply teeming with rain and, despite the umbrella, I rebelled. A bomb dropped close by, and later there were quite a few people ponding at our door. "Whyd didn't she blow her bloody whistle?", the neighbors demanded. >From then on I HAD to do it. ...................................................................... later, "were truly blessed in that they only dropped in a circle around us"... From fqmorris at gmail.com Thu Jul 24 14:22:46 2008 From: fqmorris at gmail.com (David Morris) Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2008 14:22:46 -0500 Subject: AtD (37) p.1050, Paranoia runs deep....more musings prob. for nought In-Reply-To: <488893B4.1090606@verizon.net> References: <220380.34659.qm@web38406.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <488893B4.1090606@verizon.net> Message-ID: <7d461dc80807241222h1751c938u5ffaa2d1252446c1@mail.gmail.com> On Thu, Jul 24, 2008 at 9:37 AM, Paul Mackin wrote: > Mark Kohut wrote: >> >> P 1050 >> What's it all mean--the ability to change the past? Is it a metaphor for a kind of regret cancellation in one's life? That chance to "if only I could go back and do something different in that situation?" > > Probably all these things, but you can be sure that, with Pynchon involved, entropy and information loss are lurking in the background. Well way back when in GR (somewhere) there was a lamentation/observation that it was impossible to reverse time, play the film of life backwards. I think I remember the imagery of a Mayflower ship sailing backwards, back to the Old World. I think a part of this thought also relates to TRP's thoughts on taking a different fork in the road way back then, also in GR I think. David Morris From paul.mackin at verizon.net Thu Jul 24 16:05:25 2008 From: paul.mackin at verizon.net (Paul Mackin) Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2008 17:05:25 -0400 Subject: AtD (37) p.1050, Paranoia runs deep....more musings prob. for nought In-Reply-To: <7d461dc80807241222h1751c938u5ffaa2d1252446c1@mail.gmail.com> References: <220380.34659.qm@web38406.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <488893B4.1090606@verizon.net> <7d461dc80807241222h1751c938u5ffaa2d1252446c1@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4888EE95.70606@verizon.net> David Morris wrote: > On Thu, Jul 24, 2008 at 9:37 AM, Paul Mackin wrote: > >> Mark Kohut wrote: >> >>> P 1050 >>> What's it all mean--the ability to change the past? Is it a metaphor for a kind of regret cancellation in one's life? That chance to "if only I could go back and do something different in that situation?" >>> >> Probably all these things, but you can be sure that, with Pynchon involved, entropy and information loss are lurking in the background. >> > > Well way back when in GR (somewhere) there was a > lamentation/observation that it was impossible to reverse time, play > the film of life backwards. I think I remember the imagery of a > Mayflower ship sailing backwards, back to the Old World. I think a > part of this thought also relates to TRP's thoughts on taking a > different fork in the road way back then, also in GR I think. > > David Morris > > > I do remember the thought that the Slothrop heresy might have been the fork in the road America never took? The idea is treated humorously in AtD where Halfcourt is trying to get to Shambala. The Yogi Berra joke is resurrected. You come to a fork in the road and take it. From markekohut at yahoo.com Thu Jul 24 17:24:12 2008 From: markekohut at yahoo.com (Mark Kohut) Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2008 15:24:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: AtD (37) p.1050, Paranoia runs deep....more musings prob. for nought In-Reply-To: <4888EE95.70606@verizon.net> Message-ID: <5005.34371.qm@web38408.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Is TRP, in the Remembrance of Things Past strain that has been seen in AtD, offering a vision of a non-deterministic Time Past, metaphorically? Remembrance of a Bilocal Past?, so to speak?... In GR as remembered by some below nothing can change, and more than once in AtD we have heard---'we can't go back the way we came"-----yet in part of this working metaphor, change IS possible???? --- On Thu, 7/24/08, Paul Mackin wrote: > From: Paul Mackin > Subject: Re: AtD (37) p.1050, Paranoia runs deep....more musings prob. for nought > To: pynchon-l at waste.org > Date: Thursday, July 24, 2008, 5:05 PM > David Morris wrote: > > On Thu, Jul 24, 2008 at 9:37 AM, Paul Mackin > wrote: > > > >> Mark Kohut wrote: > >> > >>> P 1050 > >>> What's it all mean--the ability to change > the past? Is it a metaphor for a kind of regret > cancellation in one's life? That chance to "if > only I could go back and do something different in that > situation?" > >>> > >> Probably all these things, but you can be sure > that, with Pynchon involved, entropy and information loss > are lurking in the background. > >> > > > > Well way back when in GR (somewhere) there was a > > lamentation/observation that it was impossible to > reverse time, play > > the film of life backwards. I think I remember the > imagery of a > > Mayflower ship sailing backwards, back to the Old > World. I think a > > part of this thought also relates to TRP's > thoughts on taking a > > different fork in the road way back then, also in GR I > think. > > > > David Morris > > > > > > > > > I do remember the thought that the Slothrop heresy might > have been the > fork in the road America never took? > > The idea is treated humorously in AtD where Halfcourt is > trying to get > to Shambala. > > The Yogi Berra joke is resurrected. > > You come to a fork in the road and take it. From markekohut at yahoo.com Fri Jul 25 06:33:06 2008 From: markekohut at yahoo.com (Mark Kohut) Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2008 04:33:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: AtD (37) p.1043 'See, that's the thing", anarchist-bashing, and a moll rescue Message-ID: <391666.43869.qm@web38401.mail.mud.yahoo.com> P 1053 "still dead's far as I know." "See.that's the thing"----Lew began. Heady, metaphysical-like comedy going on here, yes?" thoughts? Deuce in "Security", like Lew. Union-busting, more blaming the anarchists dialogue. Lew and Deuce sparring, sniping verbally, until Lew's great Hollywood joke when Deuce pulls hiis gun BUT he is saved by Shalimar with her tommy gun. How'd she get there? Sliding in with Lew all along? Or, popping in like a teleporter? "Check up on me" seems to indicate the latter. Which means she knows what's happening with Lew all along? And nobody is surprised. Or, of course, there is always that 'other life' existing alongside the one we live?.. Or, just part of the detective plot parody? A reviewer on Iceland Spar: it lets people see into the fourth dimension, time, thereby showing them the shadow-world that surrounds us all like a colorless, odorless gas. When one character looks at a nugget of silver through this mysterious substance, he finds: "Not only had the entire scene doubled and, even more peculiarly, grown brighter, but as for the two overlapping images of the nugget itself, one was as gold as the other was silver." Is Iceland Spar almost everywhere? Is Spar an internal metaphor for such shadow-worlds everywhere in the novel. Whenever we have a juxtaposition in space in the text that might only be understood as a jump in time? Shalimar? and soon Ms. Macara? From paul.mackin at verizon.net Fri Jul 25 08:55:55 2008 From: paul.mackin at verizon.net (Paul Mackin) Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2008 09:55:55 -0400 Subject: AtD (37) p.1050, Paranoia runs deep....more musings prob. for nought In-Reply-To: <5005.34371.qm@web38408.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <5005.34371.qm@web38408.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4889DB6B.4050207@verizon.net> Mark Kohut wrote: > Is TRP, in the Remembrance of Things Past strain that has been seen in AtD, > offering a vision of a non-deterministic Time Past, metaphorically? > > Remembrance of a Bilocal Past?, so to speak?... > > In GR as remembered by some below nothing can change, and more than once in AtD we have heard---'we can't go back the way we came"-----yet in part of this working metaphor, change IS possible???? > A remembrance or recordation of what MIGHT have happened. Or even sorta happened. Might we want to think that there is a completely different reality out there AN EIGHTH OF WHICH HAPPENED? Admit that the current reality is only 87.5 percent true. Apply quantum level thinking to our macro world. So what does it mean that we are only PROBABLY here talking to each other. Does Pynchon know? Does he expect us to figure it out? P. > --- On Thu, 7/24/08, Paul Mackin wrote: > > >> From: Paul Mackin >> Subject: Re: AtD (37) p.1050, Paranoia runs deep....more musings prob. for nought >> To: pynchon-l at waste.org >> Date: Thursday, July 24, 2008, 5:05 PM >> David Morris wrote: >> >>> On Thu, Jul 24, 2008 at 9:37 AM, Paul Mackin >>> >> wrote: >> >>> >>> >>>> Mark Kohut wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>>> P 1050 >>>>> What's it all mean--the ability to change >>>>> >> the past? Is it a metaphor for a kind of regret >> cancellation in one's life? That chance to "if >> only I could go back and do something different in that >> situation?" >> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> Probably all these things, but you can be sure >>>> >> that, with Pynchon involved, entropy and information loss >> are lurking in the background. >> >>>> >>>> >>> Well way back when in GR (somewhere) there was a >>> lamentation/observation that it was impossible to >>> >> reverse time, play >> >>> the film of life backwards. I think I remember the >>> >> imagery of a >> >>> Mayflower ship sailing backwards, back to the Old >>> >> World. I think a >> >>> part of this thought also relates to TRP's >>> >> thoughts on taking a >> >>> different fork in the road way back then, also in GR I >>> >> think. >> >>> David Morris >>> >>> >>> >>> >> I do remember the thought that the Slothrop heresy might >> have been the >> fork in the road America never took? >> >> The idea is treated humorously in AtD where Halfcourt is >> trying to get >> to Shambala. >> >> The Yogi Berra joke is resurrected. >> >> You come to a fork in the road and take it. >> > > > > > > From michael.lee.bailey at gmail.com Fri Jul 25 09:45:28 2008 From: michael.lee.bailey at gmail.com (Michael Bailey) Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2008 09:45:28 -0500 Subject: Theroux on Pynchon (a bit) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: oh, that was a quote... never mind... On 7/25/08, Michael Bailey wrote: > On 7/22/08, Ya Sam wrote: > > > > On the difficulty of Pynchon's books: > > > > 'I'm often in many many places left completely outside that cathedral, when I'd like to be a worshipper inside. I understand. maybe, 82% of his books' > From michael.lee.bailey at gmail.com Fri Jul 25 09:44:10 2008 From: michael.lee.bailey at gmail.com (Michael Bailey) Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2008 09:44:10 -0500 Subject: Theroux on Pynchon (a bit) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 7/22/08, Ya Sam wrote: > > On the difficulty of Pynchon's books: > > 'I'm often in many many places left completely outside that cathedral, when I'd like to be a worshipper inside. I understand. maybe, 82% of his books' That's still a pretty good percentage. I've gotten clarification on a lot of points by this list. The AtD group read has really helped, do you agree? Have the specific things you're left wondering about to do with Americanisms and cultural tacit assumptions? If so, there may be people on the list who would cheerfully - not necessarily definitively, but cheerfully - shed some light. (such as answers to "those M&D words" e.g.) If the other 18% has to do with historical references (nobody ever did know what an R-girl was...) or technical references to such fields as mining or math (btw, did you ever finish reading that Penfield math tome?) or grokking the artistic vision, then you're in the same boat and doing better than many... From robinlandseadel at comcast.net Fri Jul 25 10:30:26 2008 From: robinlandseadel at comcast.net (robinlandseadel at comcast.net) Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2008 15:30:26 +0000 Subject: AtD (37) p.1050[+ 409], Paranoia runs deep....more musings prob. for nought Message-ID: <072520081530.21641.4889F191000EA3C4000054892216525856040A0B0E0A9C0B020E0402070D019D@comcast.net> Well, not to get too hoit-toity and all that, but seriously�read Proust. Get the Linda Davis translation of "Swann's Way." We all have become accustomed to Pynchon's supersized sentences but the all time master is Marcel Proust. Which reminds me, not having read any Henry James, which of his books would be most on-point [mimiced, parodied] in OBA's writing? At the same time, note just how much the present, the theoretical "Now" that we are collectively undermining here out on the far western frontier of the web, is folded into Against the Day, how much Pynchon relies on audacious fraud in order to set up truly awful puns, like Webb Traverse [what we are doing right now]. It reminds me of Genghis Cohen's Philatelic freakout in CoL49: Cohen smiled, blew his nose. "You'd be amazed how much you can sell an honest forgery for. Some collectors specialize in them. The question is, who did these? They're atrocious." He flipped the stamp over and with the tip of the tweezers showed her. The picture had a Pony Express rider galloping out of a western fort. From shrubbery over on the right-hand side and possibly in the direction the rider would be heading, protruded a single, painstakingly engraved, black feather. "Why put in a deliberate mistake?" he asked, ignoring�if he saw it�the look on her face. "I've come up so far with eight in all. Each one has an error like this, laboriously worked into the design, like a taunt. There's even a transposition�U. S. Potsage, of all things." Pynchon's melodramatic set-up�someone back there cited D. W. Griffith's "Intolerance"�allows for multiple happy endings and there's plenty of cliffhangers [it all goes along with TRP's penchant for chase scenes]. Iceland Spar�rotate the crystal, see different layers of time including the ones you didn't enter this time around, look to your left: there's a death you'll miss this time around, there's countless others but you're far too distracted to die just yet� not all the time going on right now is contained in all the time that is potentially available once we work out all the kinks: . . . .Up and down the steeply-pitched sides of a ravine lay the picked-over hulks of failed time machines�Chronoclipses, Asimov Transeculars, Tempomorph Q-88s�broken, defective, scorched by catastrophic flares of misrouted energy, corroded often beyond recognition by unintended immersion in the terrible Flow over which they had been designed and built, so hopefully, to prevail. . . .A strewn field of conjecture, superstition, blind faith, and bad engineering, expressed in sheet-aluminum, vulcanite, Heusler's alloy, bonzoline, electrum, lignum vitae, platinoid. magnallium and packfong silver, much of it stripped away by scavengers over the years. Where was the safe harbor in Time their pilots might have found, so allowing their craft to avoid such ignominious fates? AtD page 409. Mark Kohut: Is TRP, in the Remembrance of Things Past strain that has been seen in AtD, offering a vision of a non- deterministic Time Past, metaphorically? Remembrance of a Bilocal Past?, so to speak?... In GR as remembered by some below nothing can change, and more than once in AtD we have heard--- 'we can't go back the way we came"-----yet in part of this working metaphor, change IS possible???? Paul Mackin: A remembrance or recordation of what MIGHT have happened. Or even sorta happened. Might we want to think that there is a completely different reality out there AN EIGHTH OF WHICH HAPPENED? Admit that the current reality is only 87.5 percent true. Apply quantum level thinking to our macro world. So what does it mean that we are only PROBABLY here talking to each other. Does Pynchon know? Does he expect us to figure it out? P. "Maybe, possibly, perhaps . . . . Do You Know What THIS Is?????" ". . . .why yes, that's a b-b-b-rown paper bag" "Verrrry good, now I Think you're ready for�THIS ! ! ! [organ stab.] From against.the.dave at gmail.com Fri Jul 25 12:11:00 2008 From: against.the.dave at gmail.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2008 12:11:00 -0500 Subject: Max Ernst: Illustrated Books In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Max Ernst: Illustrated Books The exhibit "Max Ernst: Illustrated Books" showcases "mysterious, species-bending creatures invented by German surrealist Max Ernst (1891–1976) during the 1920s and 1930s." Images such as bird- and insect-headed women, or a strange machine that seems to be part man, part crocodile, and part bicycle have been selected from the pages of nineteen collage novels created by Ernst. On the website visitors see pages from five or six of these titles, including Rêve d'une petite fille qui voulut entrer au Carmel (A little girl dreams of taking the veil), Une semaine de bonté (Kindness Week), and Spectacle metallique (1930). There are also some examples from Ernst's Histoire naturelle that the artist created by rubbing a pencil over various textures and surfaces, producing shapes reminiscent of bamboo, seed balls, rabbit ears, and bird's claws. http://www.nga.gov/exhibitions/2008/ernst/index.shtm http://scout.wisc.edu/Reports/ScoutReport/Current/ From takoitov at hotmail.com Fri Jul 25 12:53:45 2008 From: takoitov at hotmail.com (Ya Sam) Date: Sat, 26 Jul 2008 00:53:45 +0700 Subject: New Vollmann and Evan Dara Message-ID: http://www.amazon.com/Imperial-William-Vollmann/dp/0670020613/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1215351286&sr=1-1 http://www.amazon.com/Easy-Chain-Evan-Dara/dp/0980226600/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1217008381&sr=1-1 _________________________________________________________________ Explore the seven wonders of the world http://search.msn.com/results.aspx?q=7+wonders+world&mkt=en-US&form=QBRE From takoitov at hotmail.com Fri Jul 25 13:18:58 2008 From: takoitov at hotmail.com (Ya Sam) Date: Sat, 26 Jul 2008 01:18:58 +0700 Subject: Theroux on Pynchon (a bit) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: These are not my words, I was quoting Theroux from the audio interview. Oh, I wish I could understand that much! As for me, after 2 reads, having consulted Pynchon wiki and the group read, well, I dunno, I think I've just begun getting some stuff. More posts in the vein of 'Those M&D words' might follow. > That's still a pretty good percentage. > > I've gotten clarification on a lot > of points by this list. The AtD group read has really helped, do you agree? > > Have the specific things you're left wondering about to do with > Americanisms and cultural tacit assumptions? > If so, there may be people on the list who would cheerfully > - not necessarily definitively, but cheerfully - shed some light. > (such as answers to "those M&D words" e.g.) > > If the other 18% has to do with > historical references (nobody ever did know what an R-girl was...) > or technical references to such fields as mining or math (btw, did you > ever finish > reading that Penfield math tome?) > or grokking the artistic vision, > then you're in the same boat and doing better than many... _________________________________________________________________ Connect to the next generation of MSN Messenger  http://imagine-msn.com/messenger/launch80/default.aspx?locale=en-us&source=wlmailtagline From takoitov at hotmail.com Fri Jul 25 13:20:36 2008 From: takoitov at hotmail.com (Ya Sam) Date: Sat, 26 Jul 2008 01:20:36 +0700 Subject: Theroux on Pynchon (a bit) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > oh, that was a quote...> > never mind...> Oops, sorry, information entropy in action! _________________________________________________________________ Discover the new Windows Vista http://search.msn.com/results.aspx?q=windows+vista&mkt=en-US&form=QBRE -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From richard.romeo at gmail.com Fri Jul 25 13:13:52 2008 From: richard.romeo at gmail.com (rich) Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2008 14:13:52 -0400 Subject: New Vollmann and Evan Dara In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <830c13f40807251113l1224599dp9d70fc5ba0fe35da@mail.gmail.com> wondered what happened to evan dara--i really liked the lost scapbook that new vollman is 1300 pgs--yikes rich On Fri, Jul 25, 2008 at 1:53 PM, Ya Sam wrote: > > http://www.amazon.com/Imperial-William-Vollmann/dp/0670020613/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1215351286&sr=1-1 > > > http://www.amazon.com/Easy-Chain-Evan-Dara/dp/0980226600/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1217008381&sr=1-1 > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Explore the seven wonders of the world > http://search.msn.com/results.aspx?q=7+wonders+world&mkt=en-US&form=QBRE > From dedalus204 at comcast.net Fri Jul 25 16:54:47 2008 From: dedalus204 at comcast.net (Tim Strzechowski) Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2008 16:54:47 -0500 Subject: NP? If W spoke in Berlin Message-ID: <000e01c8eea1$0fa2c510$0300a8c0@TStrzechowski> Subject: If W spoke in Berlin Greetings, my fellow Germans. Let me first thank Chancellor Merkel: Angie, lookin' fine... and Foreign Minister Steinbrenner: Nice to see you, George; heh, heh. Thank you all for the warm welcome. As I said to my cab driver -- let's say, 'Fritz' -- on the way in from the airport, 'For a bunch of SOUR KRAUTS, this is one heapin' helpin' of hospitality.' I come here today not as a American president, which I am, but as a fellow citizen of the world. I say that because both my mother, 'Mama Barb,' and my daddy, '41,' were born and bred right here, on the planet Earth. Same as you. See what I mean? I also come here as a student of history -- a D student, as I recall, and damn proud of it, too, 'cause I passed, and that's what's important. And so I know that it was exactly 60 years ago, in 1946, that U.S. Secretary of State Charles Foster Dulles created the program that to this day bears his name, the Marshall Plan. We called it a 'post-war reconstruction plan' because that's what it was: a plan that we reconstructed right after the end of -- or 'post' -- World War Two. You remember World War Two, don't you? Hell, you STARTED it. And we FINISHED it. Heh, heh. But that's not why I stand here today. I'm here to say to all German-Americans -- and all European-Americans -- in Europe or here in Germany -- that we are all the same under our skin. It's just those Chinese and Koreans and Africans: THEY'RE different. And Iraqians. But WE are the same, because we share common values. For instance, we love freedom. And cars. And flat-screen TVs. And VCRs. And sports bars. And the Dallas Cowboys. Values like those. Now, Americans are compassionate, like the kind of conservative I've been for about eight years now. We in America are aware of the wartime sacrifices that Germans and Italians and Belgiumites have made throughout this great 20th century. And to quote my predecessor, which is what we call the man -- or woman -- who What I came to say on this historic occasion of my speech to you in this long-divided city is that we are partners. Partners against terror. Partners FOR Democracy. Partners against atheism. Partners FOR Christeo-Judish values. See how it works, back and forth like that? Partners against perversion. Partners FOR what I call hetero sex. And today, as one sexual partner to another, I sound a warning. The enemy is out there within -- hating us for our freedoms, our Big Macs with cheese, our devotion to law and order and SVUs. So I implore you to watch your step. If you say something, do something. Our enemies could be just about anywhere, and, I'm afraid to say, that's exactly where they are: just about anywhere. But this is not just about anywhere. It's about Europe, and Germany, and America, and Hawaii. It's about keeping our planet -- Earth -- safe from Democracy, so that businesses large and small can grow beyond all reason, and consumers everywhere can spend beyond their means. And so my friends here in Berlin, take heart. The circle of life is passing close, and prosperity is just around the corner. This is our moment. Our magic moment. Join hands with America, 'cause we've got you covered. And with the Lord's help, Senator McCain and I promise you: this wall will come down. Hey. Ich bin real! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From against.the.dave at gmail.com Sat Jul 26 09:55:59 2008 From: against.the.dave at gmail.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Sat, 26 Jul 2008 09:55:59 -0500 Subject: Tubal Detox Message-ID: http://youtube.com/watch?v=qXkw3L7oxwk From tbeshear at insightbb.com Sat Jul 26 11:49:24 2008 From: tbeshear at insightbb.com (tbeshear) Date: Sat, 26 Jul 2008 12:49:24 -0400 Subject: New Vollmann and Evan Dara References: <830c13f40807251113l1224599dp9d70fc5ba0fe35da@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <001001c8ef3f$8f298460$0301a8c0@XPS> IMPERIAL is Vollmann's exploration/history of California's Imperial Valley. An excerpt of the work in progress can be found in the Volmann reader, EXPELLED FROM EDEN. Advance word has been strong -- unfortunately, his aversion to trimming material may get the better of him again. A wide audience might be interested in a tightly written 500-page book on the subject, but 1,300? -- that's for the Vollmann cultists -- like me. ----- Original Message ----- From: "rich" To: "Ya Sam" Cc: Sent: Friday, July 25, 2008 2:13 PM Subject: Re: New Vollmann and Evan Dara > wondered what happened to evan dara--i really liked the lost scapbook > > that new vollman is 1300 pgs--yikes > > rich > > On Fri, Jul 25, 2008 at 1:53 PM, Ya Sam wrote: >> >> http://www.amazon.com/Imperial-William-Vollmann/dp/0670020613/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1215351286&sr=1-1 >> >> >> http://www.amazon.com/Easy-Chain-Evan-Dara/dp/0980226600/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1217008381&sr=1-1 >> >> >> >> >> >> _________________________________________________________________ >> Explore the seven wonders of the world >> http://search.msn.com/results.aspx?q=7+wonders+world&mkt=en-US&form=QBRE >> From grladams at teleport.com Sat Jul 26 18:23:46 2008 From: grladams at teleport.com (grladams at teleport.com) Date: Sat, 26 Jul 2008 19:23:46 -0400 Subject: 1910 Bombing of the LA Times Newspaper Message-ID: <380-220087626232346617@M2W004.mail2web.com> American Lightning : Terror, Mystery, the Birth of Hollywood, and the Crime of Blum, Howard (Author) Pub Date: September 2008 Street Date: September 16, 2008 Publishers Weekly (Monday , June 09, 2008): In 1911, Iron Workers Union leaders James and Joseph McNamara plea-bargained in exchange for prison sentences instead of death after bombing the offices of th"e Los Angeles Times"killing 21 people and wounding many more. The bombing had been part of a bungled assault on some 100 American cities. After the McNamaras went to jail, Clarence Darrow, their defense attorney, wound up indicted for attempting to bribe the jury, but won acquittal after a defense staged by the brilliant Earl Rogers. The McNamaras were investigated by William J. Burnsnear legendary former Secret Service agent and proprietor of a detective agency. Surprisingly, Burnss collaborator in the investigation was silent film director D.W. Griffith. This tangled and fascinating tale is the stuff of novels, and "Vanity Fair" contributing editor Blum ("The Brigade") tells it with a novelists flair. In an approach reminiscent of Truman Capotes "In Cold Blood, " Blum paints his characters in all their grandeur and tragedy, making themand their eracome alive. Blums prose is tight, his speculations unfailingly sound and his research extensiveall adding up to an absorbing and masterful true crime narrative. "(Sept.)" Copyright 2008 Reed Business Information. Library Journal (Sunday , June 15, 2008): On October 1, 1910, in the midst of a massive labor dispute, the "Los Angeles Times" building was destroyed in an explosion that left 20 people dead and many more injured. As other, similar bombs were found, it was obvious that this was not a single malicious act but a nationwide conspiracy by members of the national Iron Workers union. The hunt was on for the perpetrators. The ensuing investigation and trial brought in master detective William Burns on one side and famed attorney Clarence Darrow on the other. The trial pitted labor against management and the rich against the working class and brought out unethical behavior in both the prosecution and the defense. Adding to the carnival atmosphere were new developments in California's nascent moving picture industry, as D.W. Griffith was discovering that carefully crafted persuasive films could profoundly effect the emotions of the audience, creating a new medium for reformersand propagandists. Though the ink given to Griffith here is somewhat out of proportion to his relevance to the story, it adds interest to this riveting account of 20th-century homegrown political terrorism. For public and academic libraries. [See Prepub Alert, "LJ" 5/15/08.]Deirdre Bray Root, Middletown P.L., OH Copyright 2008 Reed Business Information. Review Quotes: "This is a wonderful story, with a cast of characters out of a Cecil B. DeMille epic, told in a style that is lucid, lyrical, even electric. Narrative history at its very best." --Joseph J. Ellis, Pulitzer Prize winning author of "Founding Brothers" and "American Creation" "In "American Lightning" Howard Blum brings to life the tragic bombing of the Los Angeles Times in l910. Writing with narrative verve and finely-honed detective instincts, Blum fleshes out the real story behind this hideous act of domestic terrorism. Highly recommended reading!" --Douglas Brinkley, "New York Times" bestselling author of "The Great Deluge" and "Tour of Duty" and Professor of History, Rice University -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web.com – Enhanced email for the mobile individual based on Microsoft® Exchange - http://link.mail2web.com/Personal/EnhancedEmail From grladams at teleport.com Sat Jul 26 18:27:11 2008 From: grladams at teleport.com (grladams at teleport.com) Date: Sat, 26 Jul 2008 19:27:11 -0400 Subject: Naughty 19th-Century weekly lowbrow tabloids Message-ID: <380-220087626232711492@M2W011.mail2web.com> (book review reminded me of some threads thru the years on the P-list) The Flash Press: Sporting Male Weeklies in 1840s New York (Historical Studies of Urban America (Paperback) ) ISBN: 0226112349 EAN: 9780226112343 Publisher: University of Chicago Press US SRP: $ 20.00 US - (Discount: REG) Binding: Paperback - Other Formats Pub Date: May 2008 Contributor(s): Cline Cohen, Patricia (Author), Gilfoyle, Timothy J (Author), Lefkowitz Horowitz, Helen (Author), American Antiquarian Society (With) Publisher Marketing: Obscene, libidinous, loathsome, lascivious. Those were just some of the ways critics described the nineteenth-century weeklies that covered and publicized New York City's extensive sexual underworld. Publications like the "Flash "and the" Whip"--distinguished by a captivating brew of lowbrow humor and titillating gossip about prostitutes, theater denizens, and sporting events--were not the sort generally bound in leather for future reference, and despite their popularity with an enthusiastic readership, they quickly receded into almost complete obscurity. Recently, though, two sizable collections of these papers have resurfaced, and in "The Flash Press" three renowned scholars provide a landmark study of their significance as well as a wide selection of their ribald articles and illustrations. Including short tales of urban life, editorials on prostitution, and moralizing rants against homosexuality, these selections epitomize a distinct form of urban journalism,"" Here, in addition to providing a thorough overview of this colorful reportage, its editors, and its audience, the authors examine nineteenth-century ideas of sexuality and freedom that mixed Tom Paine's republicanism with elements of the Marquis de Sade's sexual ideology. They also trace the evolution of censorship and obscenity law, showing how a string of legal battles ultimately led to the demise of the flash papers: editors were hauled into court, sentenced to jail for criminal obscenity and libel, and eventually pushed out of business. But not before they forever changed the debate over public sexuality and freedom of expression in America's most important city. Review Quotes: "A fascinating survey of the long-forgotten flash' newspapers of the 1840s and of the raucous urban sexual cultures, explosive sexual scandals, and heated debates over sexual liberty and morality those newspapers chronicled, provoked, and lampooned."-George Chauncey, author of Gay New York Review Quotes: "Cohen, Gilfoyle and Horowitz, history professors and chroniclers of 19th-century American sexuality, offer an engaging scholarly examination of the little-known weekly newspapers that reported on the sexual underworld of 1840s New York. . . . A thorough account of this quirky, salacious moment in journalism, readers familiar with New York will find a city both foreign and familiar, and a sense that the local weekly used to be a lot more fun." -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web.com - Microsoft® Exchange solutions from a leading provider - http://link.mail2web.com/Business/Exchange From rfiero at gmail.com Sat Jul 26 23:25:04 2008 From: rfiero at gmail.com (Richard Fiero) Date: Sat, 26 Jul 2008 20:25:04 -0800 Subject: 1910 Bombing of the LA Times Newspaper In-Reply-To: <380-220087626232346617@M2W004.mail2web.com> References: <380-220087626232346617@M2W004.mail2web.com> Message-ID: <488beab9.1abb720a.0f3f.ffffcf71@mx.google.com> grladams at teleport.com wrote: >American Lightning : Terror, Mystery, the Birth of Hollywood, and >the Crime of >Blum, Howard (Author) > Pub Date: September 2008 > Street Date: September 16, 2008 > Publishers Weekly (Monday , June 09, 2008): >In 1911, Iron Workers Union leaders James and Joseph McNamara >plea-bargained in exchange for prison sentences instead of death after >bombing the offices of th"e Los Angeles Times"killing 21 people and >wounding many more. The bombing had been part of a bungled assault >on some 100 American cities. . . . >"In "American Lightning" Howard Blum brings to life the tragic bombing of >the Los Angeles Times in l910. Writing with narrative verve and >finely-honed detective instincts, Blum fleshes out the real story behind >this hideous act of domestic terrorism. Highly recommended reading!" >--Douglas Brinkley, "New York Times" bestselling author of "The Great >Deluge" and "Tour of Duty" and Professor of History, Rice University I will have to wait until my county library system gets Mr. Blum's book before I can understand where he is coming from. The LA Times right down through the fifties was a staunchly racist anti-communist anti-union rag before it became world-class under Otis Chandler. It's not known who actually caused the explosion which occurred conveniently just an hour after Harrison Gray Otis left the building. The owners and managers of the Times were indeed 'plutes in need of adjustment. See for instance the Zoot Suit Riot of 1943. Yes, that one. Or the interesting charity contributions to Buffy Chandler's pet Music Center. Ahmanson comes to mind. An informant has advised me that he saw Richard Nixon leaving a secure and windowless building within the LA Times building with what looked a lot like a bag of money. From isread at btinternet.com Sun Jul 27 08:51:29 2008 From: isread at btinternet.com (Paul Nightingale) Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2008 14:51:29 +0100 Subject: Atdtda28: Sentenced to blind passage, 789-791 Message-ID: <000001c8efef$df9d7680$9ed86380$@com> Parting, Kit and Prance wonder what happened to the mission (787). Subsequently, Kit "fall[s] in with a band of brodyagi" (788), then "follow[s] the sound" that leads him to the railway: this in turn will allow him, retrospectively, to make sense of the soundtrack that has accompanied his progress (788-789). Here, as the new section opens, "Kit proceed[s] ... as if there were no doubt as to his way" (789); and then "[finds] himself in a clearing above a meandering river". From what he has heard, and had to make sense of, to what he can see: "... a plume of steam from a riverboat was just visible". Progress "through the dark forests"; and then, "[a]t first light", some kind of outlet. And then, as Kit emerges from the darkness, "stroll[ing] into the firelight", he is "[u]naware of how he look[s]" and has to be identified, given an identity. From "no doubt as to his way" when travelling blind through the unmapped forests, to Fleetwood's "I know him". Later, Kit's response to "I know him" will come with the firelight fading: "There was just enough light from the fire to see the despair in Fleetwood's face ..." (790). Fleetwood offers an account of "something ... in Italy"; and thereby separates the Kit he addresses here from the Kit who was an eye-witness (Fleetwood: "Apparently ..."). Fleetwood is also "seeking ... a hidden railroad existing so far only as shadowy rumor". This "rumor", or form of words, is given substance by Kit's certainty: "That must have been ..." etc. Here, Kit can voice the certainty (an eye witness 'I know ...' as opposed to Fleetwood's hearsay account) that he must deny when Fleetwood is speaking of his father in Italy. As they talk on, a map produced, Kit becomes authoritative, completing Fleetwood's sentence to identify Shambhala (790). In the previous section Kit fails ("now the word did not occur to him", 788) to say the word "vector" when Topor seems to suggest it as Fleetwood seems to suggest "Shambhala" here. Fleetwood has invoked the past, their previous meeting, eg: "I thought there had to be some portal into another world ... I was possessed by the dream of a passage through an invisible gate" (164). Subsequently, on 165: "It seems all I'm looking for now is movement, just for its own sake, what you fellows call the vector, I guess". In 55.14, Fleetwood has become a "self-pitying loudmouth" (790); Kit can "see the despair in [his] face, despair like a corrupt form of hope". If Fleetwood believes the Event might allow him to change the judgement made of him, that he is guilty of "idle tourism", for Kit he remains a "so-called explorer". Fleetwood speaks of destiny; Kit prefers "too much sense of privilege". If Colfax has been "set ... free" (789) by his father's actions, "meant for" family life, Fleetwood "can only keep moving", an echo of the earlier "movement, just for its own sake". Perhaps he should be 'unmoved' by disinheritance, given that his sense of self never depended on being a Vibe heir, eg: "They don't actually know I'm here ..." etc (164). From markekohut at yahoo.com Sun Jul 27 09:03:27 2008 From: markekohut at yahoo.com (Mark Kohut) Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2008 07:03:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: AtD (37) p. 1054 'Baloney', no radio communication and no cause and effect Message-ID: <604748.41696.qm@web38401.mail.mud.yahoo.com> P 1054 "baloney sandwich", nothing on the radio and the light draining away...'heated quiescence"....Objective correlative of Lake's state of mind, so seemingly offhandedly done. Then: Unhappy Lake gives up a belief in cause and effect?! Remember the same thought---from Slotrop? in GR? Mixing 'reality' and a (depressed?) dream state. [Mixing memory and desire--Eliot]. Compassionately, she sees Deuce as Unawakened from his life...caught in his 'desires' ala the non-enlightened in Buddhism? Ala the psychologically stupid in Western parlance? From markekohut at yahoo.com Sun Jul 27 09:11:18 2008 From: markekohut at yahoo.com (Mark Kohut) Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2008 07:11:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: AtD (37) p. 1054 Universal Dream Machine, fantasies and dead women in bed Message-ID: <293601.76140.qm@web38404.mail.mud.yahoo.com> the Universal Dream Casino a "dream casino" has been used by some writers to describe the 'ideal' gambling place as in the phrase, "Bugsy Siegel's dream casino" in Vegas. A 'dream casino'--real betting, it seems--company for women exists. From the context, and novel's themes, I suggest that this phrase means all of Lake's possible, fantasizable fates, played out as 'chance'." Cf. Yashmeen's skill at roulette and the whole theme of luck, fate, chance. Remember Pirate Prentice having other people's fantasies in GR?....Depth psychology from Freud, Jung and others, argue that, unhappy, we do fantasize a lot in the modern world (to say the too-obvious, maybe. Just reminding myself of P's focus on people and society.) "in his own ways, Deuce was trying to awaken from his life". Compassionate insight strikes Lake. His life is a nightmare, from which he needs to wake up? Awaken--concept of enlightenment here? fit in with the notion that much of the movement of characters in AtD is toward more understanding, i.e. enlightenment? "woman lying next to him who seemed to be dead"...that old mystery plot, but real with Deuce. Chumps of Choice blog says Hammett's "Red Harvest' has this plot. Deep suppressed guilt of Deuce? From robinlandseadel at comcast.net Sun Jul 27 09:24:54 2008 From: robinlandseadel at comcast.net (robinlandseadel at comcast.net) Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2008 14:24:54 +0000 Subject: NP from the New Yorker: Extraordinary Rendition Message-ID: <072720081424.3523.488C85360004633D00000DC32216554886040A0B0E0A9C0B020E0402070D019D@comcast.net> "The legal definition of torture has been much aired in recent years, and I take �Mamma Mia!� to be a useful contribution to that debate. In a way, the whole film is a startling twist on the black art of rendition: ordinary citizens, often unaware of their own guilt, are spirited off to a secure environment in Eastern Europe, there to be forced into a humiliating and often painful confession of sins past. �I tried to reach for you, but you have closed your mind,� in the bitter words of Sam. I thought that Pierce Brosnan had been dragged to the edge of endurance by North Korean sadists in his final Bond film, �Die Another Day,� but that was a quick tickle with a feather duster compared with the agony of singing Abba�s �S.O.S.� to Meryl Streep through a kitchen window. Somebody, either a cheeky Swede or another North Korean, has deliberately scored the number a tone and a half too high, with visible results: swelling muscles along the jawline, tightened throat, a panicky bulge in the eyes. There is no delicate way of putting this, but anyone watching Brosnan in mid-delivery will conclude that he has recently suffered from a series of complex digestive problems, and that the camera has, with unfortunate timing, caught him at the exact moment when he is finally working them out. What has he done to deserve this?" http://www.newyorker.com/arts/critics/cinema/2008/07/28/080728crci_cinema_lane From robinlandseadel at comcast.net Sun Jul 27 09:29:44 2008 From: robinlandseadel at comcast.net (robinlandseadel at comcast.net) Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2008 14:29:44 +0000 Subject: More NP from the New Yorker: Virginia Woolf in 3-D Message-ID: <072720081429.12909.488C8658000306AE0000326D2216554886040A0B0E0A9C0B020E0402070D019D@comcast.net> "Only in selected cinemas will �Journey to the Center of the Earth� be available in 3-D. Those condemned to view it in two dimensions will be left in mild bewilderment, since many details have been selected for no purpose other than the flaunting of three-dimensional oomph. A trilobitic bug scurries on at the start and waves its enormous feelers in our direction. That, however, is the extent of its performance, and the bug might wonder, like an ing�nue asked to remove her clothes, if such exposure was artistically justified. Next up are the yo-yo and the tape measure, both of which come zooming out of the screen, and I can�t help thinking of other films that would have been improved by a blast of 3-D; I might not have nodded off during �The Hours,� for example, if regularly prodded awake by the giant schnozzle of Virginia Woolf." From against.the.dave at gmail.com Sun Jul 27 09:31:12 2008 From: against.the.dave at gmail.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2008 09:31:12 -0500 Subject: Mingus' Magnum Opus: 'Epitaph' In Concert Message-ID: Mingus' Magnum Opus: 'Epitaph' In Concert NPR.org, July 24, 2008 - As creative chair for jazz at the Los Angeles Philharmonic, bass player Christian McBride gets to program four concerts a year. The moment he got the job, he put Charles Mingus' monumental, 2 1/2-hour jazz symphony "Epitaph" at the top of his list. When you hear Mingus' music, that's about as advanced as you can get," McBride says. "But it's always rooted — it's always coming out of that real indigenous black tradition. I'm talking about, like, work songs and gospel, you know, all the way up through Ellington, all the way up through the strife of the '60s. All of that is in his music." Jazz historian and composer Gunther Schuller conducted the entire concert in front of a 31-piece jazz orchestra. He says that Charles Mingus was a man of many moods — and that he sees them in the very fabric of Mingus' masterpiece. "I knew him quite well," Schuller says. "He could be as gentle as a baby, and he could also be so full of tantrums and explosive and angry, and all of this range of feelings is in this piece. It's all there: It's like a musical picture of Mingus' personality — from the most beautiful gentle ballads, lyric pieces, to these extremely chaotic, disorganized, wild pieces." By the time "Epitaph" premiered in 1962, Mingus was already well-known as a composer, bandleader, and virtuoso bass player, a musician who had worked with Miles Davis, Charlie Parker, and Duke Ellington, among others. But how Mingus came to write the piece remains something of a mystery. Gunther Schuller says Mingus probably composed most of the piece over a three-year period in the late '50s. He scored it for a 31-piece double jazz orchestra, and got an all-star group to play it. But the first performance was a travesty. "There's this famous, legendary disastrous concert and recording session in Town Hall [in New York], where I happened to be present," Schuller says. "And it was one of the most chaotic and frustrating and disastrous concerts that anybody has ever heard, because the music was so difficult and so strange. He hadn't had a chance to rehearse it properly and the copyists were, indeed, even still copying some of the music –- it wasn't even fully ready. And so the musicians couldn't handle it, and so eventually the concert was aborted when the union stage crew said, 'Wait a minute, it's midnight, we've gotta stop this.'" Distraught, Mingus never visited the score again in his lifetime. But 10 years after his death in 1979, the score — four feet high and 4,235 measures long — was discovered in a closet in his apartment. Composer and arranger Andrew Homzy reconstructed it, and Schuller conducted the premiere in 1989. According to Schuller, the work was titled "Epitaph," because a few movements in the score had that word in block letters. Astonishingly, when the enormous score for "Epitaph" was found, it was missing one thing -– a finale. So Schuller says that he and the band improvised one, using Mingus as a guide. "I decided, in putting this piece together, that we should do what he did so many times in his own appearances at clubs with his groups –- that is to say, he dictated an ending," he says. "And he would cue everybody: What they should do and when they play and be hollering and playing on his bass at the same time. And so we did something like that for the entire orchestra." http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=92884124 From ottosell at googlemail.com Sun Jul 27 10:02:15 2008 From: ottosell at googlemail.com (Otto) Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2008 17:02:15 +0200 Subject: Freddie Quinn - Wir Message-ID: FREDDY QUINN: WIR Wer will nicht mit Gammlern verwechselt werden? WIR! Wer sorgt sich um den Frieden auf Erden? WIR! Ihr lungert herum in Parks und in Gassen, wer kann eure sinnlose Faulheit nicht fassen? WIR! WIR! WIR! Wer hat den Mut, für euch sich zu schämen? WIR! Freddie Quinn - Wir Wer läßt sich unsere Zukunft nicht nehmen?WIR! Wer sieht euch alte Kirchen beschmieren, und muß vor euch jede Achtung verlieren? WIR! WIR! WIR! Denn jemand muß da sein, der nicht nur vernichtet, der uns unseren Glauben erhält, der lernt, der sich bildet, sein Pensum verrichtet, zum Aufbau der morgigen Welt. Die Welt von Morgen sind bereits heute WIR! Wer bleibt nichtewig die lautstarke Meute? WIR! Wer sagt sogar, daß Arbeit nur schändet, so gelangweilt, so maßlos geblendet? IHR! IHR! IHR! Wer will nochmal mit euch offen sprechen? WIR! Wer hat natürlich auch seine Schwächen? WIR! Wer hat sogar so ähnliche Maschen, auch lange Haare, nur sind sie gewaschen? WIR! WIR! WIR! Auch wir sind für Härte, auch wir tragen Bärte, auch wir geh´n oft viel zu weit. Doch manchmal im Guten, in stillen Minuten, da tut uns verschiedenes leid. Wer hat noch nicht die Hoffnung verloren? WIR! Und dankt noch denen, die uns geboren? WIR! Doch wer will weiter nur protestieren, bis nichts mehr da ist zum protestieren? IHR! IHR! IHR! From against.the.dave at gmail.com Sun Jul 27 11:18:37 2008 From: against.the.dave at gmail.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2008 11:18:37 -0500 Subject: IPW 2008: Some Pictures and more In-Reply-To: <48750902.9030902@yahoo.fr> References: <48750902.9030902@yahoo.fr> Message-ID: On Wed, Jul 9, 2008 at 1:52 PM, Michel Ryckx wrote: > Will try to write something on IPW 2008 this weekend -- it was great, really > great: the usual suspects, and some brilliant new voices. Any word anybody on where the proceedings'll be next year? I think I might at long last have to make the effort ... From against.the.dave at gmail.com Sun Jul 27 11:21:53 2008 From: against.the.dave at gmail.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2008 11:21:53 -0500 Subject: The 85 Weirdest, Day 69: Thomas Pynchon Message-ID: Weird Tales Sat 26 Jul 2008 The 85 Weirdest, Day 69: Thomas Pynchon The 85th anniversary issue of Weird Tales features our big list of "The 85 Weirdest Storytellers of the Past 85 Years." We're breaking it down online, too: one honoree per day, in no particular order, for 85 days! If not for space and time, everything would happen all at once. Maybe that's what happened to the reclusive THOMAS PYNCHON (1937– ) decades ago, as his books are chock-full of everything. Anarchism, Boy's Own fiction, Tesla, the aether, very very smart dogs, the Hollow Earth, and dirigibles — and that's just in his latest  novel. More prized than read, Pynchon will likely go down in history famed as the guy who played himself on The Simpsons with a bag over his head. http://weirdtales.net/wordpress/2008/07/26/the-85-weirdest-day-69-thomas-pynchon/ From against.the.dave at gmail.com Sun Jul 27 11:30:04 2008 From: against.the.dave at gmail.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2008 11:30:04 -0500 Subject: Michael Chabon is serious about genre Message-ID: Michael Chabon is serious about genre The Pulitzer Prize-winning author says serious writing takes many forms. By Scott Timberg, Los Angeles Times Staff Writer July 27, 2008 MICHAEL CHABON, the author of novels such as the exuberant, Pulitzer-winning "The Amazing Adventures of Kavalier & Clay" and "The Yiddish Policemen's Union," an alternate-universe story that recently won the Nebula Award, has long harbored a passion: to make the literary world safe for genre fiction, and to expand the notion of what a serious work of fiction can be. "Entertainment has a bad name," begins the opening essay of his new collection "Maps and Legends," called "Trickster in a Suit of Lights." "Serious people learn to mistrust and even revile it. The word wears spandex, pasties, a leisure suit studded with blinking lights." We spoke to Chabon, 45, from his home in Berkeley about his crusade to save comics, science fiction, fantasy, horror and detective fiction from condescension. --- Let's start with some of the pulp or genre writers who have spoken to you over the years and perhaps inspired your own books. There are so many. Raymond Chandler, Ross Macdonald, Ross Thomas, Ursula K. Le Guin, Frank Herbert, Michael Moorcock, Ray Bradbury, Jack Kirby, Steve Gerber, Alan Moore. And there are a whole list of borderland writers -- John Crowley, Jorge Luis Borges, Stephen Millhauser, Thomas Pynchon -- writers who can dwell between worlds. Where did this bias against work created for a popular audience come from? In all fairness, it came from the fact that the vast preponderance of art created for a mass audience is crap. It's impossible to ignore that. But the vast preponderance of work written as literary art is high-toned crap. The proportion may settle down in the neighborhood of 90/10 -- Sturgeon's Law said that 90% of everything is crud. Let's talk about this in a specific instance -- Cormac McCarthy's novel "The Road" and its reception. I thought it was an excellent novel. The least interesting thing to me as a reader was that it was science fiction. It presented a very pure example of post-apocalyptic literature, pared down to the essentials of a post-apocalyptic vision. But it's nothing that anybody reading science fiction over the last 60 or 70 years hasn't seen done many, many times before -- maybe not by writers of McCarthy's caliber. In terms of the vision it was presenting, it was notable only for the intense, McCarthy severity. In fact, I responded to it much more as a work of horror fiction. But the response you saw out there generally was the sort of oh-my-God isn't this incredible, Cormac McCarthy has written a science fiction novel! Sometimes a little bit of a panic sets in, where critics aren't sure what to do about it or say about it. And when this happens, when a writer of unassailable literary reputation, like McCarthy, does produce a work of genre fiction, under his own name, unlike say John Banville, the critical machine prints out and issues a pass to a writer: "This isn't science fiction, because it was written by Cormac McCarthy." Or, "We think all science fiction is bad, unless it's written by a Margaret Atwood or Cormac McCarthy." In some ways the book may be closer to a work of prophecy, biblical prophecy, than anything else, and that's what we're responding to. Ultimately with any great work of art, whether it was written by a Ray Bradbury or a Philip K. Dick or Cormac McCarthy, it's really the intensity with which it's been imagined and been brought into language. The conventional argument is that the literary writer's work is well imagined, well written, and the genre author can't write. Every so often a writer hacks and crawls out of the brambles of genre. Somebody like Philip K. Dick clearly began in the pulps, writing mass commercial fiction. Almost by dint of the passion of his fans, and the intensity of his vision, and all of that stuff, eventually he ends up getting canonized in Library of America. But those are much more the exceptions. Dick made that transition in a big way. He had intelligence, vision and so on -- without ever becoming what you'd traditionally call a good writer. He wrote much too quickly, there's no doubt about that. The pressure to write quickly is not good for any writer, no matter how gifted and intelligent, and it wasn't good for him. I wonder if Philip Pullman's tendency to fall between categories with the "His Dark Materials" books -- they're kind of kids books, kind of for adults, kind of fantasy, kind of literary -- made it hard for the movie of "The Golden Compass" to find an audience. Maybe, but maybe it's that the movie wasn't that great. To me that's what makes a writer interesting: When a writer is sort of like a ball bearing caught between the magnetic fields, all positioned just right so the ball bearing floats in the air, wobbling because it's in this highly excited position, barely holding its place. You see that in Pullman at his best. Pullman sort of, in a sense, may come back to the idea of pressure to publish frequently. He's written other good books, for young readers, but he was on a more traditional publishing schedule, turning out books very regularly, in series. But then he hit "The Golden Compass" and he slowed down and took his time. Not to say that great works of literature haven't been written in very brief periods of time. Sometimes the words come tumbling out in this white heat of composition. It's not a reliable indicator, but sometimes it's what separates a routine or genre writer from one we see as "a true artist." I wonder if national origins have a role in this. This country was founded by Puritans, who considered any kind of aesthetic pleasure to be idolatry. While Britain evolved out of a tradition of myths and legends and folk tales, which you can see in Tolkien and elsewhere. They may be less eager to make those kinds of distinctions and keep them rigid. When I look at the British pop charts, for example, I'm always surprised at the British Top 40 and what a strange mixture of incredibly refined and edgy kinds of taste are represented there alongside pap and stuff that you would never see here. It's mixed together in this wonderful jumble that seems a lot less stratified. Some of that same sensibility might be reflected in literature as well. It's certainly true in other countries. It's not an accident that we had the auteur theory developing in France: Those critics were watching Hitchcock films and John Ford films and Howard Hawks films and westerns and crime films and decided that they were clearly great works of art. H.P. Lovecraft too was acclaimed as a great American writer in France much sooner than here. When the Library of America included Lovecraft, there were a lot of people here who were smirking about it. It seems like behind your essays is this larger argument about childhood, which you seem to think our culture has misunderstood in some ways. Childhood is a subject I talk about a lot. I haven't thought it through to know how much it has to do with what I'm saying about fiction and the short story. But there is unquestionably a connection for me between the maps I encountered as a young reader -- the endpaper maps -- and the maps I created for himself, both literally drew myself, of imaginary lands I was trying to bring into existence, and the internal maps I was creating of the world that I lived in, the world that I played in -- the neighborhood. . . . Where the mean dogs were, where the mean dads were, where the bad kids hung out. All of that was intimately connected in my mind with what I was reading. I don't think there's any question that kids aren't sent out to play with the same kind of freedom anymore, at least not where I live. I would say, "Bye, Mom," and I'd be gone all day long. It felt like such a porous boundary, between my physical world, in which I enacted my imaginary games, and the world I was reading about in the books I loved. They fed each other. What happens when you take out one huge part of that -- what happens to kids' imaginations? And when you talk about crossing boundaries, seamlessly flipping from the imaginary to the real and back again, that's what I'm looking at with the writers I love. In some ways the traditional highbrow argument can seem rather silly: "If we don't privilege and protect certain kind of work, it'll all be 'American Idol' all the time." That the forces of commercial culture will swamp all the good stuff. Unquestionably -- it's not just futile, it's ultimately destructive to try to fence things in that way. Robert Frost said, "Something there is that does not love a wall." http://www.latimes.com/features/books/la-ca-chabon27-2008jul27,0,7653961.story From mryc2903 at yahoo.fr Sun Jul 27 12:35:15 2008 From: mryc2903 at yahoo.fr (Michel Ryckx) Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2008 19:35:15 +0200 Subject: IPW 2008: Some Pictures and more In-Reply-To: References: <48750902.9030902@yahoo.fr> Message-ID: <488CB1D3.2030001@yahoo.fr> Poland. Lublin. Z. Kolbusewska organising -- no call for papers yet. Zofia is 1 of the funniest persons I ever met. Polish caretaker, anyone? Dave Monroe schreef: > Any word anybody on where the proceedings'll be next year? I think I > might at long last have to make the effort ... > > > ___________________________________________________________________________ Yahoo! Mail r�invente le mail ! D�couvrez le nouveau Yahoo! Mail et son interface r�volutionnaire. http://fr.mail.yahoo.com From against.the.dave at gmail.com Sun Jul 27 13:23:10 2008 From: against.the.dave at gmail.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2008 13:23:10 -0500 Subject: IPW 2008: Some Pictures and more In-Reply-To: <488CB1D3.2030001@yahoo.fr> References: <48750902.9030902@yahoo.fr> <488CB1D3.2030001@yahoo.fr> Message-ID: On Sun, Jul 27, 2008 at 12:35 PM, Michel Ryckx wrote: > Poland. Lublin. Z. Kolbusewska organising -- no call for papers yet. Born Polish, raised Irish. I'll be the brother man in the motherland ... From igrlivingston at gmail.com Sun Jul 27 16:29:06 2008 From: igrlivingston at gmail.com (Ian Livingston) Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2008 14:29:06 -0700 Subject: The 85 Weirdest, Day 69: Thomas Pynchon In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <95cde1ee0807271429y7259ccc8o7c27dfd0b8d692f5@mail.gmail.com> More prized than read, Pynchon will likely go down in history famed as the guy who played himself on The Simpsons with a bag over his head. You know, Herman Melville, too, was despised by the critics and the uneducated mob. if it weren't for a few people who were able to get beyond the point of trying to make something brilliant seem lame so they could look smart, Melville might have fallen into oblivion for much longer than he did. The self-centered mind sees little of the world. "Weird" might be seen as a great compliment from someone who sees no further than the t.v. Of course, it is true that few people grok Melville even today. But he remains the grand man of American fiction and more people have heard of the white whale than any of Melville's contemporaries would have dreamed possible. And I do believe that TRP has given us metaphors that will long outlive his detractors or memory of who they were. Has anyone researched the history, for example of the "peace sign"? Of course, on Churchill's hand it was a V-for victory, but it was next taken up by anti-nuke radicals in London in the late fifties. It was from there it filtered into the popular non-verbal lexicon. How much metaphorical breadth will the V accrue in our lives? In the generations that follow us? How much of its depth will be revealed? On Sun, Jul 27, 2008 at 9:21 AM, Dave Monroe wrote: > Weird Tales > Sat 26 Jul 2008 > The 85 Weirdest, Day 69: Thomas Pynchon > > The 85th anniversary issue of Weird Tales features our big list of > "The 85 Weirdest Storytellers of the Past 85 Years." We're breaking it > down online, too: one honoree per day, in no particular order, for 85 > days! > > If not for space and time, everything would happen all at once. Maybe > that's what happened to the reclusive THOMAS PYNCHON (1937– ) decades > ago, as his books are chock-full of everything. Anarchism, Boy's Own > fiction, Tesla, the aether, very very smart dogs, the Hollow Earth, > and dirigibles — and that's just in his latest novel. More prized > than read, Pynchon will likely go down in history famed as the guy who > played himself on The Simpsons with a bag over his head. > > > http://weirdtales.net/wordpress/2008/07/26/the-85-weirdest-day-69-thomas-pynchon/ > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From markekohut at yahoo.com Sun Jul 27 17:57:31 2008 From: markekohut at yahoo.com (Mark Kohut) Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2008 15:57:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Fw: V., a peace sign........... Message-ID: <281959.72281.qm@web38408.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- On Sun, 7/27/08, Mark Kohut wrote: > From: Mark Kohut > Subject: V., a peace sign........... > To: "Ian Livingston" > Date: Sunday, July 27, 2008, 6:56 PM > More in a minute but Yes, I too have researched the peace > sign....a V of course.....(which I think may be part of > TRPs meaning to V. )............ > Aleister Crowley, one bad boy who one p-lister knows the > work of well and > thinks is oft alluded-to in AtD, also claims to have > invented the peace > sign........................................ > > > --- On Sun, 7/27/08, Ian Livingston > wrote: > > > From: Ian Livingston > > Subject: Re: The 85 Weirdest, Day 69: Thomas Pynchon > > To: "Dave Monroe" > , "pynchon -l" > > > Date: Sunday, July 27, 2008, 5:29 PM > > More prized > > than read, Pynchon will likely go down in history > famed as > > the guy who > > played himself on The Simpsons with a bag over his > head. > > > > You know, Herman Melville, too, was despised by the > critics > > and the > > uneducated mob. if it weren't for a few people > who > > were able to get beyond > > the point of trying to make something brilliant seem > lame > > so they could look > > smart, Melville might have fallen into oblivion for > much > > longer than he > > did. The self-centered mind sees little of the world. > > > "Weird" might be > > seen as a great compliment from someone who sees no > further > > than the t.v. > > Of course, it is true that few people grok Melville > even > > today. But he > > remains the grand man of American fiction and more > people > > have heard of the > > white whale than any of Melville's contemporaries > would > > have dreamed > > possible. > > > > And I do believe that TRP has given us metaphors that > will > > long outlive his > > detractors or memory of who they were. Has anyone > > researched the history, > > for example of the "peace sign"? Of course, > on > > Churchill's hand it was a > > V-for victory, but it was next taken up by anti-nuke > > radicals in London in > > the late fifties. It was from there it filtered into > the > > popular non-verbal > > lexicon. How much metaphorical breadth will the V > accrue > > in our lives? In > > the generations that follow us? How much of its depth > will > > be revealed? > > > > On Sun, Jul 27, 2008 at 9:21 AM, Dave Monroe > > wrote: > > > > > Weird Tales > > > Sat 26 Jul 2008 > > > The 85 Weirdest, Day 69: Thomas Pynchon > > > > > > The 85th anniversary issue of Weird Tales > features our > > big list of > > > "The 85 Weirdest Storytellers of the Past 85 > > Years." We're breaking it > > > down online, too: one honoree per day, in no > > particular order, for 85 > > > days! > > > > > > If not for space and time, everything would > happen all > > at once. Maybe > > > that's what happened to the reclusive THOMAS > > PYNCHON (1937– ) decades > > > ago, as his books are chock-full of everything. > > Anarchism, Boy's Own > > > fiction, Tesla, the aether, very very smart dogs, > the > > Hollow Earth, > > > and dirigibles — and that's just in his > latest > > novel. More prized > > > than read, Pynchon will likely go down in history > > famed as the guy who > > > played himself on The Simpsons with a bag over > his > > head. > > > > > > > > > > > > http://weirdtales.net/wordpress/2008/07/26/the-85-weirdest-day-69-thomas-pynchon/ > > > > > > From markekohut at yahoo.com Sun Jul 27 18:13:08 2008 From: markekohut at yahoo.com (Mark Kohut) Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2008 16:13:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: melville and pynchon Message-ID: <502077.72140.qm@web38402.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Melville's first two 'travel fictions" were bestsellers, then he got deeper, better and his public [critics and readers] rejected him...... "Moby Dick".........."all that whale bull, Mr. Melville, come off it"]... Moby Dick sold 50 (fifty),copies in its first year......Sue Warner's Wide Wide World, approx the same time, went thru 16 printings of at least 2,000 each, for example................. Melville died in oblivion...................... rediscovered only by a few American scholars starting in the 1920s......and his depth is stil being explored....... Pynchon will grow and grow as Melville has since the 20s, I say....... or since Faulkner, almost all his work out of print until one guy started his revival right befor he won the Nobel...................... --- On Sun, 7/27/08, Ian Livingston wrote: > From: Ian Livingston > Subject: Re: The 85 Weirdest, Day 69: Thomas Pynchon > To: "Dave Monroe" , "pynchon -l" > Date: Sunday, July 27, 2008, 5:29 PM > More prized > than read, Pynchon will likely go down in history famed as > the guy who > played himself on The Simpsons with a bag over his head. > > You know, Herman Melville, too, was despised by the critics > and the > uneducated mob. if it weren't for a few people who > were able to get beyond > the point of trying to make something brilliant seem lame > so they could look > smart, Melville might have fallen into oblivion for much > longer than he > did. The self-centered mind sees little of the world. > "Weird" might be > seen as a great compliment from someone who sees no further > than the t.v. > Of course, it is true that few people grok Melville even > today. But he > remains the grand man of American fiction and more people > have heard of the > white whale than any of Melville's contemporaries would > have dreamed > possible. > > And I do believe that TRP has given us metaphors that will > long outlive his > detractors or memory of who they were. Has anyone > researched the history, > for example of the "peace sign"? Of course, on > Churchill's hand it was a > V-for victory, but it was next taken up by anti-nuke > radicals in London in > the late fifties. It was from there it filtered into the > popular non-verbal > lexicon. How much metaphorical breadth will the V accrue > in our lives? In > the generations that follow us? How much of its depth will > be revealed? > > On Sun, Jul 27, 2008 at 9:21 AM, Dave Monroe > wrote: > > > Weird Tales > > Sat 26 Jul 2008 > > The 85 Weirdest, Day 69: Thomas Pynchon > > > > The 85th anniversary issue of Weird Tales features our > big list of > > "The 85 Weirdest Storytellers of the Past 85 > Years." We're breaking it > > down online, too: one honoree per day, in no > particular order, for 85 > > days! > > > > If not for space and time, everything would happen all > at once. Maybe > > that's what happened to the reclusive THOMAS > PYNCHON (1937– ) decades > > ago, as his books are chock-full of everything. > Anarchism, Boy's Own > > fiction, Tesla, the aether, very very smart dogs, the > Hollow Earth, > > and dirigibles — and that's just in his latest > novel. More prized > > than read, Pynchon will likely go down in history > famed as the guy who > > played himself on The Simpsons with a bag over his > head. > > > > > > > http://weirdtales.net/wordpress/2008/07/26/the-85-weirdest-day-69-thomas-pynchon/ > > > > From isread at btinternet.com Mon Jul 28 02:47:53 2008 From: isread at btinternet.com (Paul Nightingale) Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2008 08:47:53 +0100 Subject: From Hilbert's problems to the future Message-ID: <000301c8f086$3e5a7a60$bb0f6f20$@com> http://www.gresham.ac.uk/event.asp?PageId=108&EventId=628 From markekohut at yahoo.com Mon Jul 28 09:34:34 2008 From: markekohut at yahoo.com (Mark Kohut) Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2008 07:34:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: AtD (37) p. 1055, Kafkaesque dream, guilt, paranoia, Where is LAPD? Message-ID: <170635.3013.qm@web38405.mail.mud.yahoo.com> P 1055 Deuce's dream is kafkaesque? He is assumed to be guilty,---"hell, so did he [think he was guilty]", "there were others", although we do not know of what---An inquiry by a cadre of Californian youth.........paranoia again. The dwelling in which the dream takes place has a spiral staircse inside a round stone wall......Stone walls as in the old European villages and a spiral staircase as in twisting Hollywood noir movies [famous hitchcock one?]. [Not that TRP is so alluding but I remember the first nancy Drew mystery I ever read, "The Mystery of The Spiral Staircase".. "The early light coming through it [the dkylight] a dusty rose color". That early morning light motif, first noticed (maybe; not sure) by Mike B. It is there in GR, Vineland, earlier in AtD and elsewhere. "there is a crack in everything [even the darkness], that's how the light gets in."---Leonard Cohen [except for the bracket part]. Sinister Californian youth..brilliant as arc lamps (very negative in TRPs world, of course)...."unlimited power" [baddest shit].......ramping up Deuce's paranoia. he asks Where is the LAPD?, which shows, with another sly Pynchon joke, how bad it must feel. Deuce hasn't lived an exemplary life, to say the least, but is this section to also show 1) he has an unconscious conscience, at least? 2) Hollywood--the dream factory, as it has been called-- creates fear/paranoia no matter who we are? From against.the.dave at gmail.com Mon Jul 28 11:03:47 2008 From: against.the.dave at gmail.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2008 11:03:47 -0500 Subject: It's hard to believe Thomas Pynchon wrote a sentence as bad as this one Message-ID: 27.7.08 It's hard to believe Thomas Pynchon wrote a sentence as bad as this one. "After she had given in to the notion of being doubled up on, she found herself going out of the way looking for it, usually one in her mouth, the other from behind, sometimes in her ass, so she got quickly used to tasting her own fluids mixed with shit." There's more before and after that, mentions of being chained to a bed with leather hobbles and an instance of "you dirty fuckmouth whore" but that sentence is representative of the section of "Against the Day" in question. I've seen it referred to as the "Cowboy S+M" section; it's just one page but it's so poorly written and oddly out of place that I've been puzzling about it on and off since I read it. The rest of the book is excellent. Hugh Kenner wrote a little piece about Joyce beginning "Ulysses" in naturalism and ending it in parody and in "Against the Day" Pynchon seems so far to take the opposite tack, the entire book opening firmly in a parody of boy's adventure magazine (Doc Savage-type stuff) but becoming more grounded in tone as the demands of reality intrude on the characters. So there are the Chums of Chance and their airship The Inconvenience in the aforementioned whiz-bang mode, Lew Basnight beginning in a Kafkaesque version of Chicago (complete with unspecified sins and surreal dive hotels) and proceeding through the American West to England and a version of Blavatsky and Yeats's mysticisms, Merle Rideout and his daughter Dahlia in an off-kilter version of "Paper Moon" and so on, all at the turn of the century, and alternately interacting and working at cross-purposes. The S+M scene is part of the Western revenge saga of the Traverse family that takes up large parts of the book at a time and which actually I frequently find the hardest sections to get through, though I'm trying to reserve judgment until I actually finish the whole thing. That particular scene makes sense as regards the motifs of the book, the journeys of the characters involved, and setting up a situation which will apparently be crucial to the Traverse storyline but it's the execution of it that bugs me. Maybe Pynchon was parodying cheap smut like Tijuana Bibles or Penthouse stories but that's a stretch, it doesn't read as parody or homage in any way . . . I respect Pynchon's writing ability, so it comes as even more a surprise, especially in the middle of a work so well-written and elsewise engaging. My only other experience with Pynchon is the first 30 or so pages of "Gravity's Rainbow" but I've read about him and some miscellanea of his, letters, essays etc. and many of his pet interests and issues show up in "Against the Day", some reviewers having called it a sort of summation of his life's writing (guy is pretty old by now). Ideas about capitalism, the use of anarchy as a way to oppose industrialization and its effect on worker's rights, the acquisition of technology for profitable or military means, the uses of theories and hypotheses otherwise marginalized by the mainstream scientific community and, very interesting to me, the sense of a fictive space (that term is used in reference to the Chums of Chance, with Lew Basnight it's the Invisible Area, and to the scientists it's the is it/isn't it existence of a substance called Aether), a space where these characters can exist indefinitely, only half-seen by the rest of society, but a space constantly threatened by the encroachment of actual "reality", usually represented by the needs of industrialists like Scarsdale Vibe or the shadowy Organization that sends the Chums on their missions. An early example is the first chapter, where the 1893 Chicago World's Fair is described as wrapped in fiction and wonder, but the moment the Chums leave it, they're prey to regular human emotions and pettiness, reflected by a shift in their dialogue and the narrative voice. Parallels can also be drawn to the current political climate, if that's your thing. Blinded by their own arrogance and confidence in their abilities, a scientific expedition brings a horrible power to a large metropolis (never named, but clearly New York City), initiating one cataclysmic night of flames where people flee giant clouds of smoke that rush down the city streets, and clog transit systems in a panic to escape. The city is afterward described as forgetting the actual event, the nature and significance of the attack, only remembering a vague injury to their superiority and paying their respects to it by leaving the charred portion of the city intact, establishing it as a memorial by erecting a gate with a quote from Dante etched on the arch. All in all, an excellent book so far and one I don't mind as my introduction to Pynchon, but I'd still like answers about the cowboy threesome. http://phenoptosis.blogspot.com/2008/07/its-hard-to-believe-thomas-pynchon.html "No symbols where none intended." --Samuel Beckett From kelber at mindspring.com Mon Jul 28 12:02:07 2008 From: kelber at mindspring.com (kelber at mindspring.com) Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2008 13:02:07 -0400 (EDT) Subject: AtD (37) p. 1055, Kafkaesque dream, guilt, paranoia, Where is LAPD? Message-ID: <6095156.1217264527418.JavaMail.root@elwamui-royal.atl.sa.earthlink.net> The Spiral Staircase (1945) http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0038975/ isn't a Hitchcock film, and, although many of its scenes take place in the dark, its characters aren't stock film noir characters. It's about a serial killer who attacks disabled women. If Deuce is now a serial killer, the reference makes sense. The Hitchcock classic Vertigo also contains a staircase in a stone tower, a kind of squared-off spiral staircase. The Nancy Drew book Is The Hidden Staircase (not at all spiral, no murder involved). It's interesting how Deuce makes the transition from Pulp Western bad guy to Film Noir bad guy. It implies that there's something static about evil (if not evil, "badness") -- it's not just a socio-historic construct (sorry, I'm really beginning to blather -- need caffeine). Perhaps the next incarnation of Deuce is Brock Vond? Maybe a character in a 70s TV show? Anyone up for a group read of Vineland next? Laura -----Original Message----- >From: Mark Kohut >Sent: Jul 28, 2008 10:34 AM >To: pynchon -l >Subject: AtD (37) p. 1055, Kafkaesque dream, guilt, paranoia, Where is LAPD? > >P 1055 >Deuce's dream is kafkaesque? He is assumed to be guilty,---"hell, so did he [think he was guilty]", "there were others", although we do not know of what---An inquiry by a cadre of Californian youth.........paranoia again. > >The dwelling in which the dream takes place has a spiral staircse inside a round stone wall......Stone walls as in the old European villages and a spiral staircase as in twisting Hollywood noir movies [famous hitchcock one?]. [Not that TRP is so alluding but I remember the first nancy Drew mystery I ever read, "The Mystery of The Spiral Staircase".. > >"The early light coming through it [the dkylight] a dusty rose color". That early morning light motif, first noticed (maybe; not sure) by Mike B. It is there in GR, Vineland, earlier in AtD and elsewhere. >"there is a crack in everything [even the darkness], that's how the light gets in."---Leonard Cohen [except for the bracket part]. > >Sinister Californian youth..brilliant as arc lamps (very negative in TRPs world, of course)...."unlimited power" [baddest shit].......ramping up Deuce's paranoia. he asks Where is the LAPD?, which shows, with another sly Pynchon joke, how bad it must feel. > >Deuce hasn't lived an exemplary life, to say the least, but is this section to also show 1) he has an unconscious conscience, at least? >2) Hollywood--the dream factory, as it has been called-- creates fear/paranoia no matter who we are? > > > > > > From kelber at mindspring.com Mon Jul 28 12:07:31 2008 From: kelber at mindspring.com (kelber at mindspring.com) Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2008 13:07:31 -0400 (EDT) Subject: It's hard to believe Thomas Pynchon wrote a sentence as bad as this one Message-ID: <8362828.1217264852014.JavaMail.root@elwamui-royal.atl.sa.earthlink.net> The "Reader, she bit him" sequence on p. 666 evoked similarly negative reactions. Was it a bad parody of Jane Austen or just bad? It's always possible to ascribe complex motivations behind every sentence, every decision TRP makes, but sometimes a Tatzelwurm is just a Tatzelwurm. Laura -----Original Message----- >From: Dave Monroe >Sent: Jul 28, 2008 12:03 PM >To: Pynchon-L >Subject: It's hard to believe Thomas Pynchon wrote a sentence as bad as this one > >27.7.08 >It's hard to believe Thomas Pynchon wrote a sentence as bad as this one. > >"After she had given in to the notion of being doubled up on, she >found herself going out of the way looking for it, usually one in her >mouth, the other from behind, sometimes in her ass, so she got quickly >used to tasting her own fluids mixed with shit." > >There's more before and after that, mentions of being chained to a bed >with leather hobbles and an instance of "you dirty fuckmouth whore" >but that sentence is representative of the section of "Against the >Day" in question. I've seen it referred to as the "Cowboy S+M" >section; it's just one page but it's so poorly written and oddly out >of place that I've been puzzling about it on and off since I read it. > >The rest of the book is excellent. Hugh Kenner wrote a little piece >about Joyce beginning "Ulysses" in naturalism and ending it in parody >and in "Against the Day" Pynchon seems so far to take the opposite >tack, the entire book opening firmly in a parody of boy's adventure >magazine (Doc Savage-type stuff) but becoming more grounded in tone as >the demands of reality intrude on the characters. So there are the >Chums of Chance and their airship The Inconvenience in the >aforementioned whiz-bang mode, Lew Basnight beginning in a Kafkaesque >version of Chicago (complete with unspecified sins and surreal dive >hotels) and proceeding through the American West to England and a >version of Blavatsky and Yeats's mysticisms, Merle Rideout and his >daughter Dahlia in an off-kilter version of "Paper Moon" and so on, >all at the turn of the century, and alternately interacting and >working at cross-purposes. > >The S+M scene is part of the Western revenge saga of the Traverse >family that takes up large parts of the book at a time and which >actually I frequently find the hardest sections to get through, though >I'm trying to reserve judgment until I actually finish the whole >thing. That particular scene makes sense as regards the motifs of the >book, the journeys of the characters involved, and setting up a >situation which will apparently be crucial to the Traverse storyline >but it's the execution of it that bugs me. Maybe Pynchon was parodying >cheap smut like Tijuana Bibles or Penthouse stories but that's a >stretch, it doesn't read as parody or homage in any way . . . I >respect Pynchon's writing ability, so it comes as even more a >surprise, especially in the middle of a work so well-written and >elsewise engaging. > >My only other experience with Pynchon is the first 30 or so pages of >"Gravity's Rainbow" but I've read about him and some miscellanea of >his, letters, essays etc. and many of his pet interests and issues >show up in "Against the Day", some reviewers having called it a sort >of summation of his life's writing (guy is pretty old by now). Ideas >about capitalism, the use of anarchy as a way to oppose >industrialization and its effect on worker's rights, the acquisition >of technology for profitable or military means, the uses of theories >and hypotheses otherwise marginalized by the mainstream scientific >community and, very interesting to me, the sense of a fictive space >(that term is used in reference to the Chums of Chance, with Lew >Basnight it's the Invisible Area, and to the scientists it's the is >it/isn't it existence of a substance called Aether), a space where >these characters can exist indefinitely, only half-seen by the rest of >society, but a space constantly threatened by the encroachment of >actual "reality", usually represented by the needs of industrialists >like Scarsdale Vibe or the shadowy Organization that sends the Chums >on their missions. An early example is the first chapter, where the >1893 Chicago World's Fair is described as wrapped in fiction and >wonder, but the moment the Chums leave it, they're prey to regular >human emotions and pettiness, reflected by a shift in their dialogue >and the narrative voice. > >Parallels can also be drawn to the current political climate, if >that's your thing. Blinded by their own arrogance and confidence in >their abilities, a scientific expedition brings a horrible power to a >large metropolis (never named, but clearly New York City), initiating >one cataclysmic night of flames where people flee giant clouds of >smoke that rush down the city streets, and clog transit systems in a >panic to escape. The city is afterward described as forgetting the >actual event, the nature and significance of the attack, only >remembering a vague injury to their superiority and paying their >respects to it by leaving the charred portion of the city intact, >establishing it as a memorial by erecting a gate with a quote from >Dante etched on the arch. > >All in all, an excellent book so far and one I don't mind as my >introduction to Pynchon, but I'd still like answers about the cowboy >threesome. > >http://phenoptosis.blogspot.com/2008/07/its-hard-to-believe-thomas-pynchon.html > >"No symbols where none intended." --Samuel Beckett From against.the.dave at gmail.com Mon Jul 28 12:31:21 2008 From: against.the.dave at gmail.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2008 12:31:21 -0500 Subject: Bondage Message-ID: The New York Review of Books August 14, 2008 Bondage By Geoffrey Wheatcroft Fifty years ago, a fictional spy who had gradually become famous suddenly became notorious. Dr. No was the sixth of the books that had been appearing since 1953 when Ian Fleming, a restless, cynical English newspaperman, published Casino Royale, and with the words 'The scent and smoke and sweat of a casino are nauseating at three in the morning,' James Bond first appeared. Fewer than five thousand copies were initially printed, but sales rose with each book, Bond entered the national consciousness, and his adventures began to travel, notably to America. Then in 1958 academic and journalistic critics began to look hard at this phenomenon, and did not like what they saw.... http://www.nybooks.com/articles/21712?email For Your Eyes Only: Ian Fleming and James Bond Date: 17th April 2008 to 1st March 2009 To celebrate the centenary of Ian Fleming's birth, Imperial War Museum London is producing the first major exhibition devoted to the life and work of the man who created the world's most famous secret agent, James Bond. Featuring fascinating material, much on public display for the first time, For Your Eyes Only will look at the author and his fictional character in their historical contexts and examine how much of the Bond novels were imaginary and how far they were based on real people and events. This exhibition will explore the early life of Ian Fleming, his wartime career and work as a journalist and travel writer, and how, as an author, he drew upon his own experiences to create the iconic character of James Bond. http://london.iwm.org.uk/server/show/conEvent.2104 For Your Eyes Only: Ian Fleming and James Bond http://london.iwm.org.uk/upload/package/fleming/home.html "John Kennedy's role model James Bond was about to make his name by kicking third-world people around, another extension of the boy's adventure tales a lot of us grew up reading." (SL, "Intro," p. 11) http://waste.org/mail/?list=pynchon-l&month=0211&msg=72588 http://waste.org/mail/?list=pynchon-l&month=0601&msg=99659 From markekohut at yahoo.com Mon Jul 28 13:16:17 2008 From: markekohut at yahoo.com (Mark Kohut) Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2008 11:16:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: AtD (37) p. 1055, Kafkaesque dream, guilt, paranoia, Where is LAPD? In-Reply-To: <6095156.1217264527418.JavaMail.root@elwamui-royal.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <241030.79859.qm@web38405.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Laura, Thanks for correcting and filling in my shoddy "scholarship"....(it was so bad, one can't call it that). Vertigo was the Hitchcock film I was trying to remember but I did not stop to get right...yes, spiral staircase inside a stone tower, yes.... Besides all the other rightness, I agree with your remarks about some "essential" evil in Deuce. A-and, he is at least a killer and at least in the dream feels like "there were others' [ dead women he woke up next to]. Mark --- On Mon, 7/28/08, kelber at mindspring.com wrote: > From: kelber at mindspring.com > Subject: Re: AtD (37) p. 1055, Kafkaesque dream, guilt, paranoia, Where is LAPD? > To: pynchon-l at waste.org > Date: Monday, July 28, 2008, 1:02 PM > The Spiral Staircase (1945) > > http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0038975/ > > isn't a Hitchcock film, and, although many of its > scenes take place in the dark, its characters aren't > stock film noir characters. It's about a serial killer > who attacks disabled women. If Deuce is now a serial > killer, the reference makes sense. The Hitchcock classic > Vertigo also contains a staircase in a stone tower, a kind > of squared-off spiral staircase. The Nancy Drew book Is > The Hidden Staircase (not at all spiral, no murder > involved). > > It's interesting how Deuce makes the transition from > Pulp Western bad guy to Film Noir bad guy. It implies that > there's something static about evil (if not evil, > "badness") -- it's not just a socio-historic > construct (sorry, I'm really beginning to blather -- > need caffeine). Perhaps the next incarnation of Deuce is > Brock Vond? Maybe a character in a 70s TV show? Anyone up > for a group read of Vineland next? > > Laura > > > > -----Original Message----- > >From: Mark Kohut > >Sent: Jul 28, 2008 10:34 AM > >To: pynchon -l > >Subject: AtD (37) p. 1055, Kafkaesque dream, guilt, > paranoia, Where is LAPD? > > > >P 1055 > >Deuce's dream is kafkaesque? He is assumed to be > guilty,---"hell, so did he [think he was > guilty]", "there were others", although we > do not know of what---An inquiry by a cadre of Californian > youth.........paranoia again. > > > >The dwelling in which the dream takes place has a > spiral staircse inside a round stone wall......Stone walls > as in the old European villages and a spiral staircase as > in twisting Hollywood noir movies [famous hitchcock one?]. > [Not that TRP is so alluding but I remember the first nancy > Drew mystery I ever read, "The Mystery of The Spiral > Staircase".. > > > >"The early light coming through it [the dkylight] > a dusty rose color". That early morning light motif, > first noticed (maybe; not sure) by Mike B. It is there in > GR, Vineland, earlier in AtD and elsewhere. > >"there is a crack in everything [even the > darkness], that's how the light gets > in."---Leonard Cohen [except for the bracket part]. > > > >Sinister Californian youth..brilliant as arc lamps > (very negative in TRPs world, of course)...."unlimited > power" [baddest shit].......ramping up Deuce's > paranoia. he asks Where is the LAPD?, which shows, with > another sly Pynchon joke, how bad it must feel. > > > >Deuce hasn't lived an exemplary life, to say the > least, but is this section to also show 1) he has an > unconscious conscience, at least? > >2) Hollywood--the dream factory, as it has been > called-- creates fear/paranoia no matter who we are? > > > > > > > > > > > > From markekohut at yahoo.com Mon Jul 28 13:17:45 2008 From: markekohut at yahoo.com (Mark Kohut) Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2008 11:17:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: It's hard to believe Thomas Pynchon wrote a sentence as bad as this one In-Reply-To: <8362828.1217264852014.JavaMail.root@elwamui-royal.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <999307.77225.qm@web38407.mail.mud.yahoo.com> LOL --- On Mon, 7/28/08, kelber at mindspring.com wrote: > From: kelber at mindspring.com > Subject: Re: It's hard to believe Thomas Pynchon wrote a sentence as bad as this one > To: pynchon-l at waste.org > Date: Monday, July 28, 2008, 1:07 PM > The "Reader, she bit him" sequence on p. 666 > evoked similarly negative reactions. Was it a bad parody > of Jane Austen or just bad? It's always possible to > ascribe complex motivations behind every sentence, every > decision TRP makes, but sometimes a Tatzelwurm is just a > Tatzelwurm. > > Laura > > -----Original Message----- > >From: Dave Monroe > >Sent: Jul 28, 2008 12:03 PM > >To: Pynchon-L > >Subject: It's hard to believe Thomas Pynchon wrote > a sentence as bad as this one > > > >27.7.08 > >It's hard to believe Thomas Pynchon wrote a > sentence as bad as this one. > > > >"After she had given in to the notion of being > doubled up on, she > >found herself going out of the way looking for it, > usually one in her > >mouth, the other from behind, sometimes in her ass, so > she got quickly > >used to tasting her own fluids mixed with shit." > > > >There's more before and after that, mentions of > being chained to a bed > >with leather hobbles and an instance of "you dirty > fuckmouth whore" > >but that sentence is representative of the section of > "Against the > >Day" in question. I've seen it referred to as > the "Cowboy S+M" > >section; it's just one page but it's so poorly > written and oddly out > >of place that I've been puzzling about it on and > off since I read it. > > > >The rest of the book is excellent. Hugh Kenner wrote a > little piece > >about Joyce beginning "Ulysses" in naturalism > and ending it in parody > >and in "Against the Day" Pynchon seems so far > to take the opposite > >tack, the entire book opening firmly in a parody of > boy's adventure > >magazine (Doc Savage-type stuff) but becoming more > grounded in tone as > >the demands of reality intrude on the characters. So > there are the > >Chums of Chance and their airship The Inconvenience in > the > >aforementioned whiz-bang mode, Lew Basnight beginning > in a Kafkaesque > >version of Chicago (complete with unspecified sins and > surreal dive > >hotels) and proceeding through the American West to > England and a > >version of Blavatsky and Yeats's mysticisms, Merle > Rideout and his > >daughter Dahlia in an off-kilter version of "Paper > Moon" and so on, > >all at the turn of the century, and alternately > interacting and > >working at cross-purposes. > > > >The S+M scene is part of the Western revenge saga of > the Traverse > >family that takes up large parts of the book at a time > and which > >actually I frequently find the hardest sections to get > through, though > >I'm trying to reserve judgment until I actually > finish the whole > >thing. That particular scene makes sense as regards the > motifs of the > >book, the journeys of the characters involved, and > setting up a > >situation which will apparently be crucial to the > Traverse storyline > >but it's the execution of it that bugs me. Maybe > Pynchon was parodying > >cheap smut like Tijuana Bibles or Penthouse stories but > that's a > >stretch, it doesn't read as parody or homage in any > way . . . I > >respect Pynchon's writing ability, so it comes as > even more a > >surprise, especially in the middle of a work so > well-written and > >elsewise engaging. > > > >My only other experience with Pynchon is the first 30 > or so pages of > >"Gravity's Rainbow" but I've read > about him and some miscellanea of > >his, letters, essays etc. and many of his pet interests > and issues > >show up in "Against the Day", some reviewers > having called it a sort > >of summation of his life's writing (guy is pretty > old by now). Ideas > >about capitalism, the use of anarchy as a way to oppose > >industrialization and its effect on worker's > rights, the acquisition > >of technology for profitable or military means, the > uses of theories > >and hypotheses otherwise marginalized by the mainstream > scientific > >community and, very interesting to me, the sense of a > fictive space > >(that term is used in reference to the Chums of Chance, > with Lew > >Basnight it's the Invisible Area, and to the > scientists it's the is > >it/isn't it existence of a substance called > Aether), a space where > >these characters can exist indefinitely, only half-seen > by the rest of > >society, but a space constantly threatened by the > encroachment of > >actual "reality", usually represented by the > needs of industrialists > >like Scarsdale Vibe or the shadowy Organization that > sends the Chums > >on their missions. An early example is the first > chapter, where the > >1893 Chicago World's Fair is described as wrapped > in fiction and > >wonder, but the moment the Chums leave it, they're > prey to regular > >human emotions and pettiness, reflected by a shift in > their dialogue > >and the narrative voice. > > > >Parallels can also be drawn to the current political > climate, if > >that's your thing. Blinded by their own arrogance > and confidence in > >their abilities, a scientific expedition brings a > horrible power to a > >large metropolis (never named, but clearly New York > City), initiating > >one cataclysmic night of flames where people flee giant > clouds of > >smoke that rush down the city streets, and clog transit > systems in a > >panic to escape. The city is afterward described as > forgetting the > >actual event, the nature and significance of the > attack, only > >remembering a vague injury to their superiority and > paying their > >respects to it by leaving the charred portion of the > city intact, > >establishing it as a memorial by erecting a gate with a > quote from > >Dante etched on the arch. > > > >All in all, an excellent book so far and one I > don't mind as my > >introduction to Pynchon, but I'd still like answers > about the cowboy > >threesome. > > > >http://phenoptosis.blogspot.com/2008/07/its-hard-to-believe-thomas-pynchon.html > > > >"No symbols where none intended." --Samuel > Beckett From scuffling at gmail.com Mon Jul 28 14:09:09 2008 From: scuffling at gmail.com (Henry) Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2008 15:09:09 -0400 Subject: AtD (37) p. 1055, Kafkaesque dream, guilt, paranoia, Where is LAPD? In-Reply-To: <241030.79859.qm@web38405.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <6095156.1217264527418.JavaMail.root@elwamui-royal.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <241030.79859.qm@web38405.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <006101c8f0e5$6b63f8b0$422bea10$@com> "Unforgiven," http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0105695/ is my fave rave for nuanced treatment of "he is at least a killer" considerations. They are all killers; even the whores have hired a few, but... AtD is similarly nuanced on the subject of guilt, particularly concerning this most venal of sins, IMO. Henry Mu Please contribute to Obama if you can: http://my.barackobama.com/page/outreach/view/main/PListe4Obama If you appreciate this message, or my Obama blog, http://my.barackobama.com/page/community/blog/henrymu , then how about being my friend on the My.BarackObama.com network: http://my.barackobama.com/page/socialnet/register/33qzpcr2sl -----Original Message----- From: Mark Kohut Laura, Thanks for correcting and filling in my shoddy "scholarship"....(it was so bad, one can't call it that). Vertigo was the Hitchcock film I was trying to remember but I did not stop to get right...yes, spiral staircase inside a stone tower, yes.... Besides all the other rightness, I agree with your remarks about some "essential" evil in Deuce. A-and, he is at least a killer and at least in the dream feels like "there were others' [ dead women he woke up next to]. Mark From against.the.dave at gmail.com Mon Jul 28 14:42:39 2008 From: against.the.dave at gmail.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2008 14:42:39 -0500 Subject: Doug Millison sent you a message on Facebook... In-Reply-To: <08563ca7e458033badfa2545dd222a50@www.facebook.com> References: <08563ca7e458033badfa2545dd222a50@www.facebook.com> Message-ID: http://www.facebook.com/pages/Thomas-Ruggles-Pynchon-Jr/37647770144?ref=s On Mon, Jul 28, 2008 at 2:38 PM, Facebook wrote: > Doug sent you a message. > > -------------------- > Re: P-List @ Facebook > > I'm in, now that I'm finally reading Against the Day, timely, too. > Thanks, Dave! > -Doug > -------------------- > > To reply to this message, follow the link below: > http://www.facebook.com/n/?inbox/readmessage.php&t=22012457798 > > ___ > Want to control which emails you receive from Facebook? Go to: > http://www.facebook.com/editaccount.php?notifications&md=bXNnO2Zyb209MTA1MDQzOTg5Njt0PTIyMDEyNDU3Nzk4O3RvPTcxOTIyOTE4OQ== > > > From robinlandseadel at comcast.net Mon Jul 28 18:18:24 2008 From: robinlandseadel at comcast.net (robinlandseadel at comcast.net) Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2008 23:18:24 +0000 Subject: AtD (37) p. 1055, Kafkaesque dream, guilt, paranoia, Where is LAPD? Message-ID: <072820082318.13618.488E53C0000DDCC3000035322216538496040A0B0E0A9C0B020E0402070D019D@comcast.net> Laura: Anyone up for a group read of Vineland next? I'd be up for it, someone else recommends "V.", I suggested CoL 49�all have tight connections to AtD. Vineland is about surveillance reversed, turning the cameras on the finks. Considering how much space the creation of modern-day spy networks takes up in AtD [GR, for that matter], Vineland offers up much relevant material as regards spies, spying and the creation of a permanent police state in the good old U.S.A. Vineland is also connected to AtD via the presence of Jesse Traverse and Frenesi"s taste for C.O.P.s. If it turns out to be "V.", though, I'll have a chance at connecting with a book that has left me cold ever since I first had a crack at it twenty years ago. On the one hand, the characters in "V." are the thinest in any of TRP's novels�the cardboard cutouts in Against the Day usually have something funny ha-ha to say, there's a greater amusement potential. On the other, the time frame of "V."often matches Against the Day, obviously OBA needed to tie up a lot of loose ends. I'll end by noting here, and probably later on, that la Jarreti�re's little entrance on p. 1066 is partially in the way of a belated apology for la Jarreti�re's scene in "V.", an ugly compendium of slurs and clich�s on the arts scene. La Jarreti�re returns to assure us it was only an outrageous stunt, no cause for concern. Must have been what our boy was talkin' about when he said: "It is only fair to warn even the most kindly disposed of readers that there are some mighty tiresome passages here, juvinile and deliquent too. At the same time, my best hope is that, pretentious, goofy and ill-considered as they get now and then, these stories will still be of use with all their flaws intact, as illustrative of typical problems in entry-level fiction, and cautionary about some practices which younger writers might prefer to avoid. Slow Learner page 4 From markekohut at yahoo.com Mon Jul 28 18:44:45 2008 From: markekohut at yahoo.com (Mark Kohut) Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2008 16:44:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: AtD (37) p. 1055, Kafkaesque dream, guilt, paranoia, Where is LAPD? In-Reply-To: <072820082318.13618.488E53C0000DDCC3000035322216538496040A0B0E0A9C0B020E0402070D019D@comcast.net> Message-ID: <15986.22465.qm@web38402.mail.mud.yahoo.com> I vote for the consensus.......... In fact, in a kind of homage to timelessness, I vote for maybe reading more than one at a time??? many on the the p-list is already doing that, it seems. a--and we always have more than one thread going anyway......... We can make some wonderfully contrapuntal, full orchestral sounds.......... Talk about Stravinsky!? --- On Mon, 7/28/08, robinlandseadel at comcast.net wrote: > From: robinlandseadel at comcast.net > Subject: Re: AtD (37) p. 1055, Kafkaesque dream, guilt, paranoia, Where is LAPD? > To: "P-list" > Date: Monday, July 28, 2008, 7:18 PM > Laura: > Anyone up for a group read of Vineland next? > > I'd be up for it, someone else recommends > "V.", I suggested > CoL 49—all have tight connections to AtD. > > Vineland is about surveillance reversed, turning the > cameras on the finks. > > Considering how much space the creation of modern-day spy > networks > takes up in AtD [GR, for that matter], Vineland offers up > much relevant > material as regards spies, spying and the creation of a > permanent police > state in the good old U.S.A. Vineland is also connected to > AtD via the > presence of Jesse Traverse and Frenesi"s taste for > C.O.P.s. > > If it turns out to be "V.", though, I'll have > a chance at connecting with a > book that has left me cold ever since I first had a crack > at it twenty years > ago. On the one hand, the characters in "V." are > the thinest in any of > TRP's novels—the cardboard cutouts in Against the Day > usually have > something funny ha-ha to say, there's a greater > amusement potential. > On the other, the time frame of "V."often matches > Against the Day, > obviously OBA needed to tie up a lot of loose ends. > > I'll end by noting here, and probably later on, that > la Jarretière's > little entrance on p. 1066 is partially in the way of a > belated apology for > la Jarretière's scene in "V.", an ugly > compendium of slurs and clichés > on the arts scene. La Jarretière returns to assure us it > was only an > outrageous stunt, no cause for concern. Must have been what > our boy > was talkin' about when he said: > > "It is only fair to warn even the most > kindly disposed of readers > that there are some mighty tiresome passages > here, juvinile and > deliquent too. At the same time, my best hope is > that, pretentious, > goofy and ill-considered as they get now and > then, these stories > will still be of use with all their flaws intact, > as illustrative of > typical problems in entry-level fiction, and > cautionary about some > practices which younger writers might prefer to > avoid. > Slow Learner page 4 From witavorr at hotmail.com Mon Jul 28 18:46:37 2008 From: witavorr at hotmail.com (Amy E. Vorro) Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2008 16:46:37 -0700 Subject: AtD (37) p. 1055, Kafkaesque dream, guilt, paranoia, Where is LAPD? In-Reply-To: <072820082318.13618.488E53C0000DDCC3000035322216538496040A0B0E0A9C0B020E0402070D019D@comcast.net> References: <072820082318.13618.488E53C0000DDCC3000035322216538496040A0B0E0A9C0B020E0402070D019D@comcast.net> Message-ID: I'm new to this this listserv, but would wholly welcome a group read of Vineland. I'm reading it right now, but some external commentary would be freakin' awesome. I vote yay? (Or is it yeh?) Amy > From: robinlandseadel at comcast.net > To: pynchon-l at waste.org > Subject: Re: AtD (37) p. 1055, Kafkaesque dream, guilt, paranoia, Where is LAPD? > Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2008 23:18:24 +0000 > > Laura: > Anyone up for a group read of Vineland next? > > I'd be up for it, someone else recommends "V.", I suggested > CoL 49—all have tight connections to AtD. > > Vineland is about surveillance reversed, turning the cameras on the finks. > > Considering how much space the creation of modern-day spy networks > takes up in AtD [GR, for that matter], Vineland offers up much relevant > material as regards spies, spying and the creation of a permanent police > state in the good old U.S.A. Vineland is also connected to AtD via the > presence of Jesse Traverse and Frenesi"s taste for C.O.P.s. > > If it turns out to be "V.", though, I'll have a chance at connecting with a > book that has left me cold ever since I first had a crack at it twenty years > ago. On the one hand, the characters in "V." are the thinest in any of > TRP's novels—the cardboard cutouts in Against the Day usually have > something funny ha-ha to say, there's a greater amusement potential. > On the other, the time frame of "V."often matches Against the Day, > obviously OBA needed to tie up a lot of loose ends. > > I'll end by noting here, and probably later on, that la Jarretière's > little entrance on p. 1066 is partially in the way of a belated apology for > la Jarretière's scene in "V.", an ugly compendium of slurs and clichés > on the arts scene. La Jarretière returns to assure us it was only an > outrageous stunt, no cause for concern. Must have been what our boy > was talkin' about when he said: > > "It is only fair to warn even the most kindly disposed of readers > that there are some mighty tiresome passages here, juvinile and > deliquent too. At the same time, my best hope is that, pretentious, > goofy and ill-considered as they get now and then, these stories > will still be of use with all their flaws intact, as illustrative of > typical problems in entry-level fiction, and cautionary about some > practices which younger writers might prefer to avoid. > Slow Learner page 4 > _________________________________________________________________ Time for vacation? WIN what you need- enter now! http://www.gowindowslive.com/summergiveaway/?ocid=tag_jlyhm -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nmaranca at gmail.com Mon Jul 28 18:54:45 2008 From: nmaranca at gmail.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Nat=E1lia_Maranca?=) Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2008 20:54:45 -0300 Subject: It's hard to believe Thomas Pynchon wrote a sentence as bad as this one In-Reply-To: <999307.77225.qm@web38407.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <8362828.1217264852014.JavaMail.root@elwamui-royal.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <999307.77225.qm@web38407.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <79e49fac0807281654g5cf48212mabfc51e13df03190@mail.gmail.com> Pynchon's descriptions of sex vary a lot in style depending on the context. Besides, it's not the first time he uses crude sexual violence to make a point, it's all through GR. Here, by showing the wickedness of the two killers, he is actually casting light in psychological problems of Lakeherself, demonstrating how much of a masochist she is, and why she should be despised just as much as Deuce and Sloat. This is crucial for our involvement in the novel, because we are following the story inside the brothers' point of view, who clearly want their sister dead along with Vibe and the hired guns. The scene is poorly written and sick, and it should be this way. It should inspire a negative reaction, but directed at the characters and not the writer. But then, the "reader, she bit him" piece, I don't think I could defend it. I found it amusing, and that's all. Perhaps of no literary value, but it fits in the whole of AtD... On Mon, Jul 28, 2008 at 3:17 PM, Mark Kohut wrote: > LOL > > > --- On Mon, 7/28/08, kelber at mindspring.com wrote: > > > From: kelber at mindspring.com > > Subject: Re: It's hard to believe Thomas Pynchon wrote a sentence as bad > as this one > > To: pynchon-l at waste.org > > Date: Monday, July 28, 2008, 1:07 PM > > The "Reader, she bit him" sequence on p. 666 > > evoked similarly negative reactions. Was it a bad parody > > of Jane Austen or just bad? It's always possible to > > ascribe complex motivations behind every sentence, every > > decision TRP makes, but sometimes a Tatzelwurm is just a > > Tatzelwurm. > > > > Laura > > > > -----Original Message----- > > >From: Dave Monroe > > >Sent: Jul 28, 2008 12:03 PM > > >To: Pynchon-L > > >Subject: It's hard to believe Thomas Pynchon wrote > > a sentence as bad as this one > > > > > >27.7.08 > > >It's hard to believe Thomas Pynchon wrote a > > sentence as bad as this one. > > > > > >"After she had given in to the notion of being > > doubled up on, she > > >found herself going out of the way looking for it, > > usually one in her > > >mouth, the other from behind, sometimes in her ass, so > > she got quickly > > >used to tasting her own fluids mixed with shit." > > > > > >There's more before and after that, mentions of > > being chained to a bed > > >with leather hobbles and an instance of "you dirty > > fuckmouth whore" > > >but that sentence is representative of the section of > > "Against the > > >Day" in question. I've seen it referred to as > > the "Cowboy S+M" > > >section; it's just one page but it's so poorly > > written and oddly out > > >of place that I've been puzzling about it on and > > off since I read it. > > > > > >The rest of the book is excellent. Hugh Kenner wrote a > > little piece > > >about Joyce beginning "Ulysses" in naturalism > > and ending it in parody > > >and in "Against the Day" Pynchon seems so far > > to take the opposite > > >tack, the entire book opening firmly in a parody of > > boy's adventure > > >magazine (Doc Savage-type stuff) but becoming more > > grounded in tone as > > >the demands of reality intrude on the characters. So > > there are the > > >Chums of Chance and their airship The Inconvenience in > > the > > >aforementioned whiz-bang mode, Lew Basnight beginning > > in a Kafkaesque > > >version of Chicago (complete with unspecified sins and > > surreal dive > > >hotels) and proceeding through the American West to > > England and a > > >version of Blavatsky and Yeats's mysticisms, Merle > > Rideout and his > > >daughter Dahlia in an off-kilter version of "Paper > > Moon" and so on, > > >all at the turn of the century, and alternately > > interacting and > > >working at cross-purposes. > > > > > >The S+M scene is part of the Western revenge saga of > > the Traverse > > >family that takes up large parts of the book at a time > > and which > > >actually I frequently find the hardest sections to get > > through, though > > >I'm trying to reserve judgment until I actually > > finish the whole > > >thing. That particular scene makes sense as regards the > > motifs of the > > >book, the journeys of the characters involved, and > > setting up a > > >situation which will apparently be crucial to the > > Traverse storyline > > >but it's the execution of it that bugs me. Maybe > > Pynchon was parodying > > >cheap smut like Tijuana Bibles or Penthouse stories but > > that's a > > >stretch, it doesn't read as parody or homage in any > > way . . . I > > >respect Pynchon's writing ability, so it comes as > > even more a > > >surprise, especially in the middle of a work so > > well-written and > > >elsewise engaging. > > > > > >My only other experience with Pynchon is the first 30 > > or so pages of > > >"Gravity's Rainbow" but I've read > > about him and some miscellanea of > > >his, letters, essays etc. and many of his pet interests > > and issues > > >show up in "Against the Day", some reviewers > > having called it a sort > > >of summation of his life's writing (guy is pretty > > old by now). Ideas > > >about capitalism, the use of anarchy as a way to oppose > > >industrialization and its effect on worker's > > rights, the acquisition > > >of technology for profitable or military means, the > > uses of theories > > >and hypotheses otherwise marginalized by the mainstream > > scientific > > >community and, very interesting to me, the sense of a > > fictive space > > >(that term is used in reference to the Chums of Chance, > > with Lew > > >Basnight it's the Invisible Area, and to the > > scientists it's the is > > >it/isn't it existence of a substance called > > Aether), a space where > > >these characters can exist indefinitely, only half-seen > > by the rest of > > >society, but a space constantly threatened by the > > encroachment of > > >actual "reality", usually represented by the > > needs of industrialists > > >like Scarsdale Vibe or the shadowy Organization that > > sends the Chums > > >on their missions. An early example is the first > > chapter, where the > > >1893 Chicago World's Fair is described as wrapped > > in fiction and > > >wonder, but the moment the Chums leave it, they're > > prey to regular > > >human emotions and pettiness, reflected by a shift in > > their dialogue > > >and the narrative voice. > > > > > >Parallels can also be drawn to the current political > > climate, if > > >that's your thing. Blinded by their own arrogance > > and confidence in > > >their abilities, a scientific expedition brings a > > horrible power to a > > >large metropolis (never named, but clearly New York > > City), initiating > > >one cataclysmic night of flames where people flee giant > > clouds of > > >smoke that rush down the city streets, and clog transit > > systems in a > > >panic to escape. The city is afterward described as > > forgetting the > > >actual event, the nature and significance of the > > attack, only > > >remembering a vague injury to their superiority and > > paying their > > >respects to it by leaving the charred portion of the > > city intact, > > >establishing it as a memorial by erecting a gate with a > > quote from > > >Dante etched on the arch. > > > > > >All in all, an excellent book so far and one I > > don't mind as my > > >introduction to Pynchon, but I'd still like answers > > about the cowboy > > >threesome. > > > > > > > http://phenoptosis.blogspot.com/2008/07/its-hard-to-believe-thomas-pynchon.html > > > > > >"No symbols where none intended." --Samuel > > Beckett > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nmaranca at gmail.com Mon Jul 28 19:14:42 2008 From: nmaranca at gmail.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Nat=E1lia_Maranca?=) Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2008 21:14:42 -0300 Subject: IPW 2008: Some Pictures and more In-Reply-To: References: <48750902.9030902@yahoo.fr> <488CB1D3.2030001@yahoo.fr> Message-ID: <79e49fac0807281714j72f29a3dj62e8d6b2575b94d5@mail.gmail.com> Any idea as to the month? On Sun, Jul 27, 2008 at 3:23 PM, Dave Monroe wrote: > On Sun, Jul 27, 2008 at 12:35 PM, Michel Ryckx wrote: > > > Poland. Lublin. Z. Kolbusewska organising -- no call for papers yet. > > Born Polish, raised Irish. I'll be the brother man in the motherland ... > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From markekohut at yahoo.com Mon Jul 28 19:51:31 2008 From: markekohut at yahoo.com (Mark Kohut) Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2008 17:51:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: AtD (37) p.1056 Lake dreams; icy north; gravity, mass, no lightness of being Message-ID: <788787.89820.qm@web38408.mail.mud.yahoo.com> p 1056 A chapter full of dreams. Lake now has one about a subarctic city where everyone is so fertile and they all "pretend family life". Dream analysis 101: Icy North is a Bad Place in TRP's symbolic world and Lake knows this is where her unhappy life/marriage is. (as some cruel English wit said of Eliot's "The Wasteland": it's about his marriage.). But she dreams of new life--a fecundity she doesn't have, a wish fulfillment dream?---wonderful TRP dream lines, yes?---and a child [her unconceived child?] caught under the ice but ultimately rescued---the word resurrection is used---as she awakes into early sunlight [again], "an announcement of intention"... Lake's dream might be seen as the opposite of Yashmeen's giving birth? Cf. Prentice living out people's fantasies? Only Lake is unhappy and overcompensating.... "wordless, timeless" distraction...."maybe dream within a dream"...........deepest core (of oneself, of the "collective unconscious" [Jung]? ) "of weight slowly to increase beyond endurance".....gravity, unlimited mass?.....weight of the world?......weight of her life? ---feeling weight---the force of gravity---the opposite of grace?----her life a heaviness "almost beyond endurance", a 'mass' that is Bad Shit in TRPs world---the opposite of the lightness of being, of singing and eating bananas. From markekohut at yahoo.com Mon Jul 28 20:28:58 2008 From: markekohut at yahoo.com (Mark Kohut) Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2008 18:28:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: What to read next? Message-ID: <598363.81285.qm@web38401.mail.mud.yahoo.com> > I vote for the consensus.......... > > In fact, in a kind of homage to timelessness, I vote for > maybe reading more than one at a time??? > > many on the the p-list is already doing that, it seems. > > a--and we always have more than one thread going > anyway......... > > We can make some wonderfully contrapuntal, full orchestral > sounds.......... > Talk about Stravinsky!? > > > --- On Mon, 7/28/08, robinlandseadel at comcast.net > wrote: > > > From: robinlandseadel at comcast.net > > > Subject: Re: AtD (37) p. 1055, Kafkaesque dream, > guilt, paranoia, Where is LAPD? > > To: "P-list" > > Date: Monday, July 28, 2008, 7:18 PM > > Laura: > > Anyone up for a group read of Vineland next? > > > > I'd be up for it, someone else recommends > > "V.", I suggested > > CoL 49—all have tight connections to AtD. > > > > Vineland is about surveillance reversed, turning the > > cameras on the finks. > > > > Considering how much space the creation of modern-day > spy > > networks > > takes up in AtD [GR, for that matter], Vineland offers > up > > much relevant > > material as regards spies, spying and the creation of > a > > permanent police > > state in the good old U.S.A. Vineland is also > connected to > > AtD via the > > presence of Jesse Traverse and Frenesi"s taste > for > > C.O.P.s. > > > > If it turns out to be "V.", though, I'll > have > > a chance at connecting with a > > book that has left me cold ever since I first had a > crack > > at it twenty years > > ago. On the one hand, the characters in "V." > are > > the thinest in any of > > TRP's novels—the cardboard cutouts in Against > the Day > > usually have > > something funny ha-ha to say, there's a greater > > amusement potential. > > On the other, the time frame of "V."often > matches > > Against the Day, > > obviously OBA needed to tie up a lot of loose ends. > > > > I'll end by noting here, and probably later on, > that > > la Jarretière's > > little entrance on p. 1066 is partially in the way of > a > > belated apology for > > la Jarretière's scene in "V.", an ugly > > compendium of slurs and clichés > > on the arts scene. La Jarretière returns to assure us > it > > was only an > > outrageous stunt, no cause for concern. Must have been > what > > our boy > > was talkin' about when he said: > > > > "It is only fair to warn even the most > > kindly disposed of readers > > that there are some mighty tiresome passages > > here, juvinile and > > deliquent too. At the same time, my best > hope is > > that, pretentious, > > goofy and ill-considered as they get now and > > then, these stories > > will still be of use with all their flaws > intact, > > as illustrative of > > typical problems in entry-level fiction, and > > cautionary about some > > practices which younger writers might prefer > to > > avoid. > > Slow Learner page 4 From scuffling at gmail.com Mon Jul 28 20:43:23 2008 From: scuffling at gmail.com (Henry) Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2008 21:43:23 -0400 Subject: What to read next? In-Reply-To: <598363.81285.qm@web38401.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <598363.81285.qm@web38401.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <000301c8f11c$7d56d4c0$78047e40$@com> As an agreeable, consensus building contrarian, I'm for V or Vineland, vwhichever has fewer votes. Henry Mu Please contribute to Obama if you can: http://my.barackobama.com/page/outreach/view/main/PListe4Obama Check out my Obama blog, http://my.barackobama.com/page/community/blog/henrymu ; if you like it, how about being my "friend" on the My.BarackObama.com network: http://my.barackobama.com/page/socialnet/register/33qzpcr2sl -----Original Message----- From: Mark Kohut > I vote for the consensus.......... > > In fact, in a kind of homage to timelessness, I vote for > maybe reading more than one at a time??? > > many on the the p-list is already doing that, it seems. > > a--and we always have more than one thread going > anyway......... > > We can make some wonderfully contrapuntal, full orchestral > sounds.......... > Talk about Stravinsky!? > > > --- On Mon, 7/28/08, robinlandseadel at comcast.net > wrote: > > > From: robinlandseadel at comcast.net > > > Subject: Re: AtD (37) p. 1055, Kafkaesque dream, > guilt, paranoia, Where is LAPD? > > To: "P-list" > > Date: Monday, July 28, 2008, 7:18 PM > > Laura: > > Anyone up for a group read of Vineland next? > > > > I'd be up for it, someone else recommends > > "V.", I suggested > > CoL 49—all have tight connections to AtD. > > > > Vineland is about surveillance reversed, turning the > > cameras on the finks. > > > > Considering how much space the creation of modern-day > spy > > networks > > takes up in AtD [GR, for that matter], Vineland offers > up > > much relevant > > material as regards spies, spying and the creation of > a > > permanent police > > state in the good old U.S.A. Vineland is also > connected to > > AtD via the > > presence of Jesse Traverse and Frenesi"s taste > for > > C.O.P.s. > > > > If it turns out to be "V.", though, I'll > have > > a chance at connecting with a > > book that has left me cold ever since I first had a > crack > > at it twenty years > > ago. On the one hand, the characters in "V." > are > > the thinest in any of > > TRP's novels—the cardboard cutouts in Against > the Day > > usually have > > something funny ha-ha to say, there's a greater > > amusement potential. > > On the other, the time frame of "V."often > matches > > Against the Day, > > obviously OBA needed to tie up a lot of loose ends. > > > > I'll end by noting here, and probably later on, > that > > la Jarretière's > > little entrance on p. 1066 is partially in the way of > a > > belated apology for > > la Jarretière's scene in "V.", an ugly > > compendium of slurs and clichés > > on the arts scene. La Jarretière returns to assure us > it > > was only an > > outrageous stunt, no cause for concern. Must have been > what > > our boy > > was talkin' about when he said: > > > > "It is only fair to warn even the most > > kindly disposed of readers > > that there are some mighty tiresome passages > > here, juvinile and > > deliquent too. At the same time, my best > hope is > > that, pretentious, > > goofy and ill-considered as they get now and > > then, these stories > > will still be of use with all their flaws > intact, > > as illustrative of > > typical problems in entry-level fiction, and > > cautionary about some > > practices which younger writers might prefer > to > > avoid. > > Slow Learner page 4 From igrlivingston at gmail.com Mon Jul 28 20:51:08 2008 From: igrlivingston at gmail.com (Ian Livingston) Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2008 18:51:08 -0700 Subject: Fwd: What to read next? In-Reply-To: <95cde1ee0807281850y5cc5bd4ey592c0f6d24d38f9e@mail.gmail.com> References: <598363.81285.qm@web38401.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <95cde1ee0807281850y5cc5bd4ey592c0f6d24d38f9e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <95cde1ee0807281851k520bbeb4wfdde52d7bb6bf395@mail.gmail.com> doh! ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Ian Livingston Date: Mon, Jul 28, 2008 at 6:50 PM Subject: Re: What to read next? To: markekohut at yahoo.com I had thought it might be nice to go back the beginning, to get a group read of V., but as I only just re-read it a few months ago I'd be happy digging into Vineland as it is next on my list after finishing my re-read of GR. Trying to plan a thesis, here. I found some cool stuff in V., might be fun to test it on the group, see if I saw what I saw. On Mon, Jul 28, 2008 at 6:28 PM, Mark Kohut wrote: > > > I vote for the consensus.......... > > > > In fact, in a kind of homage to timelessness, I vote for > > maybe reading more than one at a time??? > > > > many on the the p-list is already doing that, it seems. > > > > a--and we always have more than one thread going > > anyway......... > > > > We can make some wonderfully contrapuntal, full orchestral > > sounds.......... > > Talk about Stravinsky!? > > > > > > --- On Mon, 7/28/08, robinlandseadel at comcast.net > > wrote: > > > > > From: robinlandseadel at comcast.net > > > > > Subject: Re: AtD (37) p. 1055, Kafkaesque dream, > > guilt, paranoia, Where is LAPD? > > > To: "P-list" > > > Date: Monday, July 28, 2008, 7:18 PM > > > Laura: > > > Anyone up for a group read of Vineland next? > > > > > > I'd be up for it, someone else recommends > > > "V.", I suggested > > > CoL 49—all have tight connections to AtD. > > > > > > Vineland is about surveillance reversed, turning the > > > cameras on the finks. > > > > > > Considering how much space the creation of modern-day > > spy > > > networks > > > takes up in AtD [GR, for that matter], Vineland offers > > up > > > much relevant > > > material as regards spies, spying and the creation of > > a > > > permanent police > > > state in the good old U.S.A. Vineland is also > > connected to > > > AtD via the > > > presence of Jesse Traverse and Frenesi"s taste > > for > > > C.O.P.s. > > > > > > If it turns out to be "V.", though, I'll > > have > > > a chance at connecting with a > > > book that has left me cold ever since I first had a > > crack > > > at it twenty years > > > ago. On the one hand, the characters in "V." > > are > > > the thinest in any of > > > TRP's novels—the cardboard cutouts in Against > > the Day > > > usually have > > > something funny ha-ha to say, there's a greater > > > amusement potential. > > > On the other, the time frame of "V."often > > matches > > > Against the Day, > > > obviously OBA needed to tie up a lot of loose ends. > > > > > > I'll end by noting here, and probably later on, > > that > > > la Jarretière's > > > little entrance on p. 1066 is partially in the way of > > a > > > belated apology for > > > la Jarretière's scene in "V.", an ugly > > > compendium of slurs and clichés > > > on the arts scene. La Jarretière returns to assure us > > it > > > was only an > > > outrageous stunt, no cause for concern. Must have been > > what > > > our boy > > > was talkin' about when he said: > > > > > > "It is only fair to warn even the most > > > kindly disposed of readers > > > that there are some mighty tiresome passages > > > here, juvinile and > > > deliquent too. At the same time, my best > > hope is > > > that, pretentious, > > > goofy and ill-considered as they get now and > > > then, these stories > > > will still be of use with all their flaws > > intact, > > > as illustrative of > > > typical problems in entry-level fiction, and > > > cautionary about some > > > practices which younger writers might prefer > > to > > > avoid. > > > Slow Learner page 4 > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nmaranca at gmail.com Mon Jul 28 22:06:23 2008 From: nmaranca at gmail.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Nat=E1lia_Maranca?=) Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2008 00:06:23 -0300 Subject: What to read next? In-Reply-To: <95cde1ee0807281851k520bbeb4wfdde52d7bb6bf395@mail.gmail.com> References: <598363.81285.qm@web38401.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <95cde1ee0807281850y5cc5bd4ey592c0f6d24d38f9e@mail.gmail.com> <95cde1ee0807281851k520bbeb4wfdde52d7bb6bf395@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <79e49fac0807282006vf7b3434x4dbd170487aff027@mail.gmail.com> I'd be happy to contribute more to the next reading, which I couldn't do during this one of AtD as I was a bit unsynchronized. I'm also in favor of V. or Vineland, preferably Vineland. On Mon, Jul 28, 2008 at 10:51 PM, Ian Livingston wrote: > doh! > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: Ian Livingston > Date: Mon, Jul 28, 2008 at 6:50 PM > Subject: Re: What to read next? > To: markekohut at yahoo.com > > > I had thought it might be nice to go back the beginning, to get a group > read of V., but as I only just re-read it a few months ago I'd be happy > digging into Vineland as it is next on my list after finishing my re-read of > GR. Trying to plan a thesis, here. I found some cool stuff in V., might be > fun to test it on the group, see if I saw what I saw. > > > On Mon, Jul 28, 2008 at 6:28 PM, Mark Kohut wrote: > >> >> > I vote for the consensus.......... >> > >> > In fact, in a kind of homage to timelessness, I vote for >> > maybe reading more than one at a time??? >> > >> > many on the the p-list is already doing that, it seems. >> > >> > a--and we always have more than one thread going >> > anyway......... >> > >> > We can make some wonderfully contrapuntal, full orchestral >> > sounds.......... >> > Talk about Stravinsky!? >> > >> > >> > --- On Mon, 7/28/08, robinlandseadel at comcast.net >> > wrote: >> > >> > > From: robinlandseadel at comcast.net >> > >> > > Subject: Re: AtD (37) p. 1055, Kafkaesque dream, >> > guilt, paranoia, Where is LAPD? >> > > To: "P-list" >> > > Date: Monday, July 28, 2008, 7:18 PM >> > > Laura: >> > > Anyone up for a group read of Vineland next? >> > > >> > > I'd be up for it, someone else recommends >> > > "V.", I suggested >> > > CoL 49—all have tight connections to AtD. >> > > >> > > Vineland is about surveillance reversed, turning the >> > > cameras on the finks. >> > > >> > > Considering how much space the creation of modern-day >> > spy >> > > networks >> > > takes up in AtD [GR, for that matter], Vineland offers >> > up >> > > much relevant >> > > material as regards spies, spying and the creation of >> > a >> > > permanent police >> > > state in the good old U.S.A. Vineland is also >> > connected to >> > > AtD via the >> > > presence of Jesse Traverse and Frenesi"s taste >> > for >> > > C.O.P.s. >> > > >> > > If it turns out to be "V.", though, I'll >> > have >> > > a chance at connecting with a >> > > book that has left me cold ever since I first had a >> > crack >> > > at it twenty years >> > > ago. On the one hand, the characters in "V." >> > are >> > > the thinest in any of >> > > TRP's novels—the cardboard cutouts in Against >> > the Day >> > > usually have >> > > something funny ha-ha to say, there's a greater >> > > amusement potential. >> > > On the other, the time frame of "V."often >> > matches >> > > Against the Day, >> > > obviously OBA needed to tie up a lot of loose ends. >> > > >> > > I'll end by noting here, and probably later on, >> > that >> > > la Jarretière's >> > > little entrance on p. 1066 is partially in the way of >> > a >> > > belated apology for >> > > la Jarretière's scene in "V.", an ugly >> > > compendium of slurs and clichés >> > > on the arts scene. La Jarretière returns to assure us >> > it >> > > was only an >> > > outrageous stunt, no cause for concern. Must have been >> > what >> > > our boy >> > > was talkin' about when he said: >> > > >> > > "It is only fair to warn even the most >> > > kindly disposed of readers >> > > that there are some mighty tiresome passages >> > > here, juvinile and >> > > deliquent too. At the same time, my best >> > hope is >> > > that, pretentious, >> > > goofy and ill-considered as they get now and >> > > then, these stories >> > > will still be of use with all their flaws >> > intact, >> > > as illustrative of >> > > typical problems in entry-level fiction, and >> > > cautionary about some >> > > practices which younger writers might prefer >> > to >> > > avoid. >> > > Slow Learner page 4 >> >> >> >> >> > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dpayne1912 at hotmail.com Mon Jul 28 23:31:41 2008 From: dpayne1912 at hotmail.com (David Payne) Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2008 04:31:41 +0000 Subject: What to read next? In-Reply-To: <79e49fac0807282006vf7b3434x4dbd170487aff027@mail.gmail.com> References: <598363.81285.qm@web38401.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <95cde1ee0807281850y5cc5bd4ey592c0f6d24d38f9e@mail.gmail.com> <95cde1ee0807281851k520bbeb4wfdde52d7bb6bf395@mail.gmail.com> <79e49fac0807282006vf7b3434x4dbd170487aff027@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Vineland! _________________________________________________________________ With Windows Live for mobile, your contacts travel with you. http://www.windowslive.com/mobile/overview.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_mobile_072008 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wescac at gmail.com Tue Jul 29 01:03:04 2008 From: wescac at gmail.com (JD) Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2008 02:03:04 -0400 Subject: what to read next that isn't pynchon Message-ID: <39a39c310807282303j23e79eb6ka7282cf95893bccb@mail.gmail.com> Please advise. Handbook of Drawing is still not in English. God damnit. Darkmans was terrible. Terrible. I'm sorry. Vollmann sniffs his own ass so hard I can hear it from here. At least he tries. Still smells like shit. Omega Minor was fun, and worthwhile. Summer in Termuren(sp?) was worthwhile. But old. I subscribe to One Store because I like their format. It's all horrible. One of their contributors had a national endowment of the arts grant and a gugenheim grant and reading her bullshit made me want to stab myself in the eye. Good on her being able to game the system, but dear lord. New authors, please. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wescac at gmail.com Tue Jul 29 00:53:59 2008 From: wescac at gmail.com (JD) Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2008 01:53:59 -0400 Subject: It's hard to believe Thomas Pynchon wrote a sentence as bad as this one In-Reply-To: <79e49fac0807281654g5cf48212mabfc51e13df03190@mail.gmail.com> References: <8362828.1217264852014.JavaMail.root@elwamui-royal.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <999307.77225.qm@web38407.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <79e49fac0807281654g5cf48212mabfc51e13df03190@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <39a39c310807282253s7097335o3e4e750dfd7e8056@mail.gmail.com> "reader, shit bit him" and all surrounding it was bad to a hilarious degree. TP is not without error. But it was bad to a degree most bad writers could never achieve. Sometimes you have to be willing to laugh at yourself, sometimes you have to be willing to let a well-endowed writer tell you to go fuck yourself, sometimes you have to realize no matter how gifted all authors screw up at some point in their career. Heaven forbid Pynchon fuck up a single line in any of his doorstops.... come on. I'm not going to lie and say it isn't fun to try to find terrible sections of any of the man's novels. regarding the double penetrated, flavorful self-exploration of Lake, I think it is not impossible that perhaps the rampant sex "novels" of certain eras of Americana were entirely uninvolved. Let's all toss on a good trench coat or two and peruse some of the bookshelves of any Chinatown you wish to pick, it might be educational. On Mon, Jul 28, 2008 at 7:54 PM, Natália Maranca wrote: > Pynchon's descriptions of sex vary a lot in style depending on the context. > Besides, it's not the first time he uses crude sexual violence to make a > point, it's all through GR. Here, by showing the wickedness of the two > killers, he is actually casting light in psychological problems of Lakeherself, demonstrating how much of a masochist she is, and why she should be > despised just as much as Deuce and Sloat. This is crucial for our > involvement in the novel, because we are following the story inside the > brothers' point of view, who clearly want their sister dead along with Vibe > and the hired guns. The scene is poorly written and sick, and it should be > this way. It should inspire a negative reaction, but directed at the > characters and not the writer. But then, the "reader, she bit him" piece, I > don't think I could defend it. I found it amusing, and that's all. Perhaps > of no literary value, but it fits in the whole of AtD... > > > On Mon, Jul 28, 2008 at 3:17 PM, Mark Kohut wrote: > >> LOL >> >> >> --- On Mon, 7/28/08, kelber at mindspring.com wrote: >> >> > From: kelber at mindspring.com >> > Subject: Re: It's hard to believe Thomas Pynchon wrote a sentence as bad >> as this one >> > To: pynchon-l at waste.org >> > Date: Monday, July 28, 2008, 1:07 PM >> > The "Reader, she bit him" sequence on p. 666 >> > evoked similarly negative reactions. Was it a bad parody >> > of Jane Austen or just bad? It's always possible to >> > ascribe complex motivations behind every sentence, every >> > decision TRP makes, but sometimes a Tatzelwurm is just a >> > Tatzelwurm. >> > >> > Laura >> > >> > -----Original Message----- >> > >From: Dave Monroe >> > >Sent: Jul 28, 2008 12:03 PM >> > >To: Pynchon-L >> > >Subject: It's hard to believe Thomas Pynchon wrote >> > a sentence as bad as this one >> > > >> > >27.7.08 >> > >It's hard to believe Thomas Pynchon wrote a >> > sentence as bad as this one. >> > > >> > >"After she had given in to the notion of being >> > doubled up on, she >> > >found herself going out of the way looking for it, >> > usually one in her >> > >mouth, the other from behind, sometimes in her ass, so >> > she got quickly >> > >used to tasting her own fluids mixed with shit." >> > > >> > >There's more before and after that, mentions of >> > being chained to a bed >> > >with leather hobbles and an instance of "you dirty >> > fuckmouth whore" >> > >but that sentence is representative of the section of >> > "Against the >> > >Day" in question. I've seen it referred to as >> > the "Cowboy S+M" >> > >section; it's just one page but it's so poorly >> > written and oddly out >> > >of place that I've been puzzling about it on and >> > off since I read it. >> > > >> > >The rest of the book is excellent. Hugh Kenner wrote a >> > little piece >> > >about Joyce beginning "Ulysses" in naturalism >> > and ending it in parody >> > >and in "Against the Day" Pynchon seems so far >> > to take the opposite >> > >tack, the entire book opening firmly in a parody of >> > boy's adventure >> > >magazine (Doc Savage-type stuff) but becoming more >> > grounded in tone as >> > >the demands of reality intrude on the characters. So >> > there are the >> > >Chums of Chance and their airship The Inconvenience in >> > the >> > >aforementioned whiz-bang mode, Lew Basnight beginning >> > in a Kafkaesque >> > >version of Chicago (complete with unspecified sins and >> > surreal dive >> > >hotels) and proceeding through the American West to >> > England and a >> > >version of Blavatsky and Yeats's mysticisms, Merle >> > Rideout and his >> > >daughter Dahlia in an off-kilter version of "Paper >> > Moon" and so on, >> > >all at the turn of the century, and alternately >> > interacting and >> > >working at cross-purposes. >> > > >> > >The S+M scene is part of the Western revenge saga of >> > the Traverse >> > >family that takes up large parts of the book at a time >> > and which >> > >actually I frequently find the hardest sections to get >> > through, though >> > >I'm trying to reserve judgment until I actually >> > finish the whole >> > >thing. That particular scene makes sense as regards the >> > motifs of the >> > >book, the journeys of the characters involved, and >> > setting up a >> > >situation which will apparently be crucial to the >> > Traverse storyline >> > >but it's the execution of it that bugs me. Maybe >> > Pynchon was parodying >> > >cheap smut like Tijuana Bibles or Penthouse stories but >> > that's a >> > >stretch, it doesn't read as parody or homage in any >> > way . . . I >> > >respect Pynchon's writing ability, so it comes as >> > even more a >> > >surprise, especially in the middle of a work so >> > well-written and >> > >elsewise engaging. >> > > >> > >My only other experience with Pynchon is the first 30 >> > or so pages of >> > >"Gravity's Rainbow" but I've read >> > about him and some miscellanea of >> > >his, letters, essays etc. and many of his pet interests >> > and issues >> > >show up in "Against the Day", some reviewers >> > having called it a sort >> > >of summation of his life's writing (guy is pretty >> > old by now). Ideas >> > >about capitalism, the use of anarchy as a way to oppose >> > >industrialization and its effect on worker's >> > rights, the acquisition >> > >of technology for profitable or military means, the >> > uses of theories >> > >and hypotheses otherwise marginalized by the mainstream >> > scientific >> > >community and, very interesting to me, the sense of a >> > fictive space >> > >(that term is used in reference to the Chums of Chance, >> > with Lew >> > >Basnight it's the Invisible Area, and to the >> > scientists it's the is >> > >it/isn't it existence of a substance called >> > Aether), a space where >> > >these characters can exist indefinitely, only half-seen >> > by the rest of >> > >society, but a space constantly threatened by the >> > encroachment of >> > >actual "reality", usually represented by the >> > needs of industrialists >> > >like Scarsdale Vibe or the shadowy Organization that >> > sends the Chums >> > >on their missions. An early example is the first >> > chapter, where the >> > >1893 Chicago World's Fair is described as wrapped >> > in fiction and >> > >wonder, but the moment the Chums leave it, they're >> > prey to regular >> > >human emotions and pettiness, reflected by a shift in >> > their dialogue >> > >and the narrative voice. >> > > >> > >Parallels can also be drawn to the current political >> > climate, if >> > >that's your thing. Blinded by their own arrogance >> > and confidence in >> > >their abilities, a scientific expedition brings a >> > horrible power to a >> > >large metropolis (never named, but clearly New York >> > City), initiating >> > >one cataclysmic night of flames where people flee giant >> > clouds of >> > >smoke that rush down the city streets, and clog transit >> > systems in a >> > >panic to escape. The city is afterward described as >> > forgetting the >> > >actual event, the nature and significance of the >> > attack, only >> > >remembering a vague injury to their superiority and >> > paying their >> > >respects to it by leaving the charred portion of the >> > city intact, >> > >establishing it as a memorial by erecting a gate with a >> > quote from >> > >Dante etched on the arch. >> > > >> > >All in all, an excellent book so far and one I >> > don't mind as my >> > >introduction to Pynchon, but I'd still like answers >> > about the cowboy >> > >threesome. >> > > >> > > >> http://phenoptosis.blogspot.com/2008/07/its-hard-to-believe-thomas-pynchon.html >> > > >> > >"No symbols where none intended." --Samuel >> > Beckett >> >> >> >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From braam.vanbruggen at bigpond.com Tue Jul 29 02:28:15 2008 From: braam.vanbruggen at bigpond.com ( braam van bruggen) Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2008 17:28:15 +1000 Subject: what to read next that isn't pynchon References: <39a39c310807282303j23e79eb6ka7282cf95893bccb@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <002101c8f14c$aaea27e0$52608a90@your3962729a48> Steve Erickson. no-one ever talks about him. Braam ----- Original Message ----- From: JD To: pynchon -l Sent: Tuesday, July 29, 2008 4:03 PM Subject: what to read next that isn't pynchon Please advise. Handbook of Drawing is still not in English. God damnit. Darkmans was terrible. Terrible. I'm sorry. Vollmann sniffs his own ass so hard I can hear it from here. At least he tries. Still smells like shit. Omega Minor was fun, and worthwhile. Summer in Termuren(sp?) was worthwhile. But old. I subscribe to One Store because I like their format. It's all horrible. One of their contributors had a national endowment of the arts grant and a gugenheim grant and reading her bullshit made me want to stab myself in the eye. Good on her being able to game the system, but dear lord. New authors, please. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From markekohut at yahoo.com Tue Jul 29 05:24:47 2008 From: markekohut at yahoo.com (Mark Kohut) Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2008 03:24:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: AtD (37) p. 1057 Penance, fidelity, rats in trees, slaughterhouse again Message-ID: <437950.60634.qm@web38401.mail.mud.yahoo.com> p 1057 "to resist all penance at the hands of others"........what a line to describe mutual commitment and fidelity between two!???...........picks up 'penance' motif earlier........... expresses that a 'relationship' with another means responsibility and inevitable hurts requiring penance? That seems to be part of the meaning, anyway, here and from earlier uses. Pynchon, plunderer of all notions, uses this and 'karmic balance' elsewhere, etc. to capture a basic notion? Basic moral truth? "the dark exceptional fate"...???...reserved for Lake and Deuce alone, now lost. Do rats really nest in palm trees? Or is that 'just' another metaphor? Seems the answer is yes and, of course, it is also a metaphor, I'm sure: from Answers.com: Roof rats prefer to nest in trees and occasionally in burrows and vegetation. "down frozen slaughterhouse alleyways"---that slaughterhouse motif again. A Hebrew Headdress is a caul, according to a Bible Dictionary online with the Book of Isaiah as the source....(Only other Google citation is to this section in ATD!) From scuffling at gmail.com Tue Jul 29 06:17:19 2008 From: scuffling at gmail.com (Henry) Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2008 07:17:19 -0400 Subject: what to read next that isn't pynchon In-Reply-To: <002101c8f14c$aaea27e0$52608a90@your3962729a48> References: <39a39c310807282303j23e79eb6ka7282cf95893bccb@mail.gmail.com> <002101c8f14c$aaea27e0$52608a90@your3962729a48> Message-ID: <005301c8f16c$aaa80840$fff818c0$@com> Big Book: Isn't there a comparatively recent translation of War and Peace that's supposed to be top drawer? Anyone read it yet? HENRY MU ----- Original Message ----- From: owner-pynchon-l at waste.org [mailto:owner-pynchon-l at waste.org] On Behalf Of braam van bruggen Sent: Tuesday, July 29, 2008 3:28 AM To: JD Cc: pynchon-l Subject: Re: what to read next that isn't pynchon Steve Erickson. no-one ever talks about him.   Braam ----- Original Message ----- From: JD To: pynchon -l Sent: Tuesday, July 29, 2008 4:03 PM Subject: what to read next that isn't pynchon Please advise.  Handbook of Drawing is still not in English.  God damnit. Darkmans was terrible. Terrible. I'm sorry. Vollmann sniffs his own ass so hard I can hear it from here.  At least he tries.  Still smells like shit. Omega Minor was fun, and worthwhile. Summer in Termuren(sp?) was worthwhile.  But old. I subscribe to One Store because I like their format.  It's all horrible.  One of their contributors had a national endowment of the arts grant and a gugenheim grant and reading her bullshit made me want to stab myself in the eye.  Good on her being able to game the system, but dear lord. New authors, please. From robinlandseadel at comcast.net Tue Jul 29 06:19:29 2008 From: robinlandseadel at comcast.net (robinlandseadel at comcast.net) Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2008 11:19:29 +0000 Subject: It's hard to believe Thomas Pynchon wrote a sentence as bad as this one Message-ID: <072920081119.1182.488EFCC10000CDDE0000049E2214756402040A0B0E0A9C0B020E0402070D019D@comcast.net> The scene on page 666 is quite beastly, and that is the very point. Google "The Great Beast" and this is the first thing to come up. http://www.mystae.com/restricted/streams/gnosis/beast.html Google "666" and the first listing leads to a wiki listing that name-checks Aleistair Crowley. Moufette, 'Pert & Reef serve to illustrate that "beastly" nature is really the nature of man�Crowley's point. The quality of writing in Against the Day varies more than in any other novel by Pynchon. The scene of Reef's unsuccessful sexual liaison with Mouffette has a kind of through-and-through groan-inducing badness, the likes of which we have seen many times before in Pynchon's writing, bad puns being a speciality of the house. After all, for DeMille young fur-henchmen can't be rowing. P.S. for MK and the rest: I really haven't read as much of Crowley as you might think. It's strange, because I know a great many people [more than I would expect] who have read Weird Uncle Al's stuff through-and-through. But all I've really read has been "The Book of Thoth" and "The Book of Lies", only dipping my toes in his other works. I've read a great deal more about Crowley than by Crowley himself. -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: JD Subject: Re: It's hard to believe Thomas Pynchon wrote a sentence as bad as this one Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2008 06:24:04 +0000 Size: 12177 URL: From robinlandseadel at comcast.net Tue Jul 29 06:45:12 2008 From: robinlandseadel at comcast.net (robinlandseadel at comcast.net) Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2008 11:45:12 +0000 Subject: what to read next that isn't pynchon Message-ID: <072920081145.10350.488F02C8000945290000286E2214756402040A0B0E0A9C0B020E0402070D019D@comcast.net> "Henry" : Big Book: Isn't there a comparatively recent translation of War and Peace that's supposed to be top drawer? Anyone read it yet? Anthony Briggs for Viking Press: http://www.amazon.com/War-Peace-Leo-Tolstoy/dp/067003469X I bought my copy two years back, but between Proust & Pynchon, my eyeballs are in search of shorter, more digestable works. Not to mention this mounting pile of metaphysical texts constantly demanding my attention. Evola on Heremetics is proving to be quite the education: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julius_Evola In addition to W & P, there are two early 20th century masterworks that seem to apply�Hesse's "The Glass Bead Game" and Thomas Mann's "Magic Mountain." But I suspect the "open sesame" will be: http://tinyurl.com/5vsju9 http://www.hermeticgoldendawn.org/Documents/Bios/regardie.htm From jkvannort at yahoo.com Tue Jul 29 07:06:23 2008 From: jkvannort at yahoo.com (J K Van Nort) Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2008 05:06:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: What to read next? In-Reply-To: <79e49fac0807282006vf7b3434x4dbd170487aff027@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <14039.43799.qm@web30605.mail.mud.yahoo.com> I'm up for Vineland Reef knot - unstable knot also known as the square knot From robinlandseadel at comcast.net Tue Jul 29 08:20:14 2008 From: robinlandseadel at comcast.net (robinlandseadel at comcast.net) Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2008 13:20:14 +0000 Subject: What to read next? Message-ID: <072920081320.2027.488F190E00039417000007EB2216538496040A0B0E0A9C0B020E0402070D019D@comcast.net> Hey, I'm always up for Froot-Loops and Stellar Jays all bulked-up on a dog-food diet�this is the one book most easily visualized as a long, long Simpsons episode: ". . . ."I'm Blood," and Vato immediatly piped up, "I'm Vato!" Together, "We just some couple of mu-thuh-fuck-kers/Out�" whereupon a disagrement arose, Vato going on with the straight Disney lyric, "Out to have some fun," while Blood, continuing to depart from it, preferred "out to kick some ass," turning immediately to Vato. "What's 'is 'have some fun' shit?". . . ." Vineland, page 181 I really don't know how many times I've read this little gem, but probably more times for pleasure than any of Pynchon's other books. Vineland's got my favorite cartoons qua cartoons in all of Pynchon's books [though Al Mar-Fuad wins on points.] And Little-Miss-Free-And-Easy's jaunt through Amerikkka's various ass-kicking departments winds up be-coming attractions for Buddhist themes in Against the Day. Not to mention the Girl's taste for a certain kind of domination, a variety of domination we've become quite comfortable with, thanks to the Tube. Good Book. -------------- Original message ---------------------- From: J K Van Nort > I'm up for Vineland > > Reef knot - unstable knot also known as the square knot From against.the.dave at gmail.com Tue Jul 29 08:31:04 2008 From: against.the.dave at gmail.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2008 08:31:04 -0500 Subject: What to read next? In-Reply-To: <598363.81285.qm@web38401.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <598363.81285.qm@web38401.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Jul 28, 2008 at 8:28 PM, Mark Kohut wrote: > >> I vote for the consensus.......... This now explains the last eight years or so of American politics ... ... but I've been settin' a spell on this question myself, and one thing I'd like to see happen here--to the point where maybe I'll even go to the effort to contribute--is to take some time ("some time") for a general discussion/assessment/whatever of AtD, perhaps revisit reviews, scholarly paers which have popped up in the meantime, not to mention our own expectations for the damn thing, perhaps to consider the novel's realationship to the Pynchonian ouevre as a whole, perhaps even to contemporary lit'rachure (of which I personally know nothing save Pynchon, but ...) .., This reminds me of something Michel kindly sent me, one moment ... From hraudask at sun3.oulu.fi Tue Jul 29 08:33:49 2008 From: hraudask at sun3.oulu.fi (Heikki Raudaskoski) Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2008 16:33:49 +0300 (EEST) Subject: IPW 2008: Some Pictures and more In-Reply-To: <79e49fac0807281714j72f29a3dj62e8d6b2575b94d5@mail.gmail.com> References: <48750902.9030902@yahoo.fr> <488CB1D3.2030001@yahoo.fr> <79e49fac0807281714j72f29a3dj62e8d6b2575b94d5@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: A (great) IPW 2008 participant wrote me that it will be in 2010. The usual two-year interval will thus be maintained. He didn't, however, mention the month. Maybe June, as B4? Zosia is a "Magician of Lublin" if there ever was one. Heikki On Mon, 28 Jul 2008, Natália Maranca wrote: > Any idea as to the month? > > On Sun, Jul 27, 2008 at 3:23 PM, Dave Monroe wrote: > > > On Sun, Jul 27, 2008 at 12:35 PM, Michel Ryckx wrote: > > > > > Poland. Lublin. Z. Kolbusewska organising -- no call for papers yet. > > > > Born Polish, raised Irish. I'll be the brother man in the motherland ... > > > From robinlandseadel at comcast.net Tue Jul 29 08:42:29 2008 From: robinlandseadel at comcast.net (robinlandseadel at comcast.net) Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2008 13:42:29 +0000 Subject: What to read next? Message-ID: <072920081342.6989.488F1E450004D5F900001B4D2216538496040A0B0E0A9C0B020E0402070D019D@comcast.net> Dave: . . . .perhaps to consider the novel's realationship to the Pynchonian ouevre as a whole, perhaps even to contemporary lit'rachure (of which I personally know nothing save Pynchon, but ...) .., . . . .perhaps to point out those nodes in Against the Day where OBA winks at his on-line cult and on-line cults in general, how much of the Geekology of the modern personal computer is integrated into the weave and warp of Against the Day. Take Quarterninions�Please ! ! ! Seriously, now�"Webb Traverse?" [rimshot, blackout.] From against.the.dave at gmail.com Tue Jul 29 09:05:17 2008 From: against.the.dave at gmail.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2008 09:05:17 -0500 Subject: Fly Towards Grace Message-ID: Slawomir Magala Fly Towards Grace (Organizing and Novel Writing) http://www.essex.ac.uk/afm/emc/novelconference/magala_paper.pdf From braam.vanbruggen at bigpond.com Tue Jul 29 02:24:50 2008 From: braam.vanbruggen at bigpond.com ( braam van bruggen) Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2008 17:24:50 +1000 Subject: What to read next? References: <598363.81285.qm@web38401.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <000701c8f14c$310d1a90$52608a90@your3962729a48> I'd really like it if we did V - I haven't read it for 20 years and it's still the most difficult (for me) and there's something hauntingly beautiful about that mysterious valley, not so much a place in physical reality as somewhere inside us all....? On the other hand, Vineland would be great too... ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark Kohut" To: "pynchon -l" Cc: ; Sent: Tuesday, July 29, 2008 11:28 AM Subject: What to read next? > >> I vote for the consensus.......... >> >> In fact, in a kind of homage to timelessness, I vote for >> maybe reading more than one at a time??? >> >> many on the the p-list is already doing that, it seems. >> >> a--and we always have more than one thread going >> anyway......... >> >> We can make some wonderfully contrapuntal, full orchestral >> sounds.......... >> Talk about Stravinsky!? >> >> >> --- On Mon, 7/28/08, robinlandseadel at comcast.net >> wrote: >> >> > From: robinlandseadel at comcast.net >> >> > Subject: Re: AtD (37) p. 1055, Kafkaesque dream, >> guilt, paranoia, Where is LAPD? >> > To: "P-list" >> > Date: Monday, July 28, 2008, 7:18 PM >> > Laura: >> > Anyone up for a group read of Vineland next? >> > >> > I'd be up for it, someone else recommends >> > "V.", I suggested >> > CoL 49—all have tight connections to AtD. >> > >> > Vineland is about surveillance reversed, turning the >> > cameras on the finks. >> > >> > Considering how much space the creation of modern-day >> spy >> > networks >> > takes up in AtD [GR, for that matter], Vineland offers >> up >> > much relevant >> > material as regards spies, spying and the creation of >> a >> > permanent police >> > state in the good old U.S.A. Vineland is also >> connected to >> > AtD via the >> > presence of Jesse Traverse and Frenesi"s taste >> for >> > C.O.P.s. >> > >> > If it turns out to be "V.", though, I'll >> have >> > a chance at connecting with a >> > book that has left me cold ever since I first had a >> crack >> > at it twenty years >> > ago. On the one hand, the characters in "V." >> are >> > the thinest in any of >> > TRP's novels—the cardboard cutouts in Against >> the Day >> > usually have >> > something funny ha-ha to say, there's a greater >> > amusement potential. >> > On the other, the time frame of "V."often >> matches >> > Against the Day, >> > obviously OBA needed to tie up a lot of loose ends. >> > >> > I'll end by noting here, and probably later on, >> that >> > la Jarretière's >> > little entrance on p. 1066 is partially in the way of >> a >> > belated apology for >> > la Jarretière's scene in "V.", an ugly >> > compendium of slurs and clichés >> > on the arts scene. La Jarretière returns to assure us >> it >> > was only an >> > outrageous stunt, no cause for concern. Must have been >> what >> > our boy >> > was talkin' about when he said: >> > >> > "It is only fair to warn even the most >> > kindly disposed of readers >> > that there are some mighty tiresome passages >> > here, juvinile and >> > deliquent too. At the same time, my best >> hope is >> > that, pretentious, >> > goofy and ill-considered as they get now and >> > then, these stories >> > will still be of use with all their flaws >> intact, >> > as illustrative of >> > typical problems in entry-level fiction, and >> > cautionary about some >> > practices which younger writers might prefer >> to >> > avoid. >> > Slow Learner page 4 > > > > From richard.romeo at gmail.com Tue Jul 29 09:44:37 2008 From: richard.romeo at gmail.com (rich) Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2008 10:44:37 -0400 Subject: Fly Towards Grace In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <830c13f40807290744x3e60db28g15c1172d21957845@mail.gmail.com> what's with that presumed photo of Pynchon in Central Park? On Tue, Jul 29, 2008 at 10:05 AM, Dave Monroe wrote: > Slawomir Magala > > Fly Towards Grace > (Organizing and Novel Writing) > > http://www.essex.ac.uk/afm/emc/novelconference/magala_paper.pdf > From kelber at mindspring.com Tue Jul 29 09:59:07 2008 From: kelber at mindspring.com (kelber at mindspring.com) Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2008 10:59:07 -0400 (GMT-04:00) Subject: What to read next? Message-ID: <4570005.1217343548212.JavaMail.root@elwamui-royal.atl.sa.earthlink.net> I'd like to see this happen too. Does anyone have any links to online articles about ATD? Maybe our next group read could start later in the Fall (October-ish?). I'm going to have limited computer access from 8/6-8/20, but after that, I'd be willing to make up an agenda framework for a Vineland (or V?) group read (someone will have to come up with a snappy acronym). Laura -----Original Message----- >From: Dave Monroe > >... but I've been settin' a spell on this question myself, and one >thing I'd like to see happen here--to the point where maybe I'll even >go to the effort to contribute--is to take some time ("some time") for >a general discussion/assessment/whatever of AtD, perhaps revisit >reviews, scholarly paers which have popped up in the meantime, not to >mention our own expectations for the damn thing, perhaps to consider >the novel's realationship to the Pynchonian ouevre as a whole, perhaps >even to contemporary lit'rachure (of which I personally know nothing >save Pynchon, but ...) .., > >This reminds me of something Michel kindly sent me, one moment ... From markekohut at yahoo.com Tue Jul 29 10:06:24 2008 From: markekohut at yahoo.com (Mark Kohut) Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2008 08:06:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Fly Towards Grace In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <972106.71082.qm@web38407.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Is that photo of Pynchon REAL?.....where did it come from? --- On Tue, 7/29/08, Dave Monroe wrote: > From: Dave Monroe > Subject: Fly Towards Grace > To: "pynchon -l" > Date: Tuesday, July 29, 2008, 10:05 AM > Slawomir Magala > > Fly Towards Grace > (Organizing and Novel Writing) > > http://www.essex.ac.uk/afm/emc/novelconference/magala_paper.pdf From against.the.dave at gmail.com Tue Jul 29 10:12:04 2008 From: against.the.dave at gmail.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2008 10:12:04 -0500 Subject: Fly Towards Grace In-Reply-To: <830c13f40807290744x3e60db28g15c1172d21957845@mail.gmail.com> References: <830c13f40807290744x3e60db28g15c1172d21957845@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Jul 29, 2008 at 9:44 AM, rich wrote: > what's with that presumed photo of Pynchon in Central Park? There are a few English-as-a-second-language glitches in that paper, I'm, uh, presuming that might well be one of them ... From glenn_scheper at earthlink.net Tue Jul 29 10:13:34 2008 From: glenn_scheper at earthlink.net (Glenn Scheper) Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2008 08:13:34 -0700 (GMT-07:00) Subject: What to read next that isn't pynchon? Message-ID: <1730759.1217344415011.JavaMail.root@elwamui-rustique.atl.sa.earthlink.net> I finished P.K. Dick's VALIS, quite confused. Maybe we-all could figure it out more deeply. Throughout VALIS is this jarring interjection: "The empire never ended." Rediscovering what P.K. Dick knew would be timely. Consider this and that about our "American empire": "peace and security" = "peace and safety" "What is at stake is more than one small country, it is a big idea, a new world order, where diverse nations are drawn together in common cause to achieve the universal aspirations of mankind: peace and security, freedom, and the rule of law. Such is a world worthy of our struggle, and worthy of our children's future. (end George Bush Sr. quote) -- http://www.theamericannightmare.org/16_pax_americana_A-D.html 16_Pax Americana 1Thes: 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. 5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. I sucked up this site, which includes Peter Goodgame's book text, and it greatly illuminates the luciferian / chthonic contrast: http://www.redmoonrising.com Now, Robin's Evola-on-Heremetics URL had a keystone fact... While characterizing race as something hereditary and biological, Evola also claimed that race was not simply and linearly defined by mere skin color and the various other hereditary factors. In other words, in addition to predominantly "Aryan" or, more broadly, "Northern" biology, the initial necessary precondition for further racial differentiation, one must prove oneself spiritually "Aryan". The fact that in India the term Arya was the synonym of dwija, "twice-born" or "regenerated" supports this point. To him higher race implied something akin to supra-human, spiritual caste. Evola wrote, "the supernatural element was the foundation of the idea of a traditional patriciate and of legitimate royalty." -- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julius_Evola Julius Evola - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Twice-born is the same as Jesus' born-again and has as true referent a metanoia/metamorphosis arising from autofellatio or autocunnilingus. Failure of the Luciferians to know the true referent makes them pick another, less approriate, idea for this unsatisfied semiotic sign. A religion without referents cannot be disabused. "The empire never ended." Yours truly, Glenn Scheper http://home.earthlink.net/~glenn_scheper/ glenn_scheper + at + earthlink.net Copyleft(!) Forward freely. From isread at btinternet.com Tue Jul 29 10:19:03 2008 From: isread at btinternet.com (Paul Nightingale) Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2008 16:19:03 +0100 Subject: Atdtda28: The city below was not the same, 792-794 Message-ID: <000901c8f18e$6fbd5bf0$4f3813d0$@com> The Chums return, briefly, in 55.12 when Prance is "taken aloft and on to an uncertain fate" (787), ie post-Event. Here, the new chapter begins with a flashback to the Event, seen from the pov of the Inconvenience "arriv[ing] over the scene of devastation shortly after the Bol'shaia Igra" (793). The Russian crew consider Chinese or German involvement (780); the Chums think of the Trespassers (793). As in Ch55 there is the question of representation, from the opening paragraph's "no one appeared to live here ..." etc (792) to "the pale blue aftermath" etc (793). Looking for evidence of an explosion, the Russians describe absence: "No sign of fire there ..." etc (780). For the Chums, however, there is presence out of absence: "... the city was not the same one they had arrived at the night before ..." etc (793). The Event has been productive: "... the desert was renounced". Down the page Professor Vanderjuice also attempts to describe, for the benefit of the Chums, what has happened on the other side of the world. Ch55 ended with Fleetwood and Kit discussing Shambhala; here, the Chums believe ("they all knew") they have found it. On 780 Padzhitnoff et al discuss "weapons implications"; and on 784 Kit recalls Ostend and the Q-weapon. Here, we consider the possibility that the Chums have "met the same fate as Shambhala, their protection lost ..." etc (793). On 787: "Prance thought he'd begun to detect a presence overhead ..." etc. Conflict between Lindsay and Darby is interrupted by "Professor Vanderjuice, transmitting from Tierra del Fuego": evidence that the Event has registered globally, given that, on 780, Padzhitnoff only reports what "Okhrana believe". Here, the Professor offers a summary of "terrible rumours about" Tesla (794); this story in turn is denounced by Darby as "capitalistic propaganda" originating with Tesla's "enemies in New York". So, "at this antipodal remove", explanation is just as much a parochial affair as for the Russians. From against.the.dave at gmail.com Tue Jul 29 10:43:37 2008 From: against.the.dave at gmail.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2008 10:43:37 -0500 Subject: What to read next? In-Reply-To: <072920081342.6989.488F1E450004D5F900001B4D2216538496040A0B0E0A9C0B020E0402070D019D@comcast.net> References: <072920081342.6989.488F1E450004D5F900001B4D2216538496040A0B0E0A9C0B020E0402070D019D@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Tue, Jul 29, 2008 at 8:42 AM, wrote: > Seriously, now—"Webb Traverse?" Indeed ... From against.the.dave at gmail.com Tue Jul 29 10:51:19 2008 From: against.the.dave at gmail.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2008 10:51:19 -0500 Subject: Fly Towards Grace In-Reply-To: <972106.71082.qm@web38407.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <972106.71082.qm@web38407.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Jul 29, 2008 at 10:06 AM, Mark Kohut wrote: > > Is that photo of Pynchon REAL?.....where did it come from? In inverse order: from that paper; yes, it's real, but I doubt it's of Pynchon ... From igrlivingston at gmail.com Tue Jul 29 12:30:45 2008 From: igrlivingston at gmail.com (Ian Livingston) Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2008 10:30:45 -0700 Subject: It's hard to believe Thomas Pynchon wrote a sentence as bad as this one In-Reply-To: <39a39c310807282253s7097335o3e4e750dfd7e8056@mail.gmail.com> References: <8362828.1217264852014.JavaMail.root@elwamui-royal.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <999307.77225.qm@web38407.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <79e49fac0807281654g5cf48212mabfc51e13df03190@mail.gmail.com> <39a39c310807282253s7097335o3e4e750dfd7e8056@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <95cde1ee0807291030l2f9c469fm7e14a54305d21dce@mail.gmail.com> "God is not only in the unspotted body of Christ and continually present in the consecrated Host but -- and this the novel and significant thing -- he is also hidden in the 'cheap,' 'despised,' common-or garden substance, even in the 'uncleanness of this world, in filth.' He is to found only through the art, indeed he is its true object and is capable of progressive transformation.... This accrescent soul was a second soul that grew through the mineral, vegetable, and animal kingdoms up to man, pervading the whole of nature and to it the natural forms were attached like appendages. This strange idea... is so much in keeping with the phenomenology of the collective unconscious that one is justified in calling it a projection of this...." CG Jung, *Mysterium Coniuntionis,* 280. I am not yet willing to go where JD goes, as I think there is purpose in everything our boy allows to reach the presses. I think that's why it takes him ten years to write a book. That I don't get it does not mean the author doesn't. On Mon, Jul 28, 2008 at 10:53 PM, JD wrote: > "reader, shit bit him" and all surrounding it was bad to a hilarious > degree. TP is not without error. But it was bad to a degree most bad > writers could never achieve. Sometimes you have to be willing to laugh at > yourself, sometimes you have to be willing to let a well-endowed writer tell > you to go fuck yourself, sometimes you have to realize no matter how gifted > all authors screw up at some point in their career. Heaven forbid Pynchon > fuck up a single line in any of his doorstops.... come on. I'm not going > to lie and say it isn't fun to try to find terrible sections of any of the > man's novels. > > regarding the double penetrated, flavorful self-exploration of Lake, I > think it is not impossible that perhaps the rampant sex "novels" of certain > eras of Americana were entirely uninvolved. Let's all toss on a good trench > coat or two and peruse some of the bookshelves of any Chinatown you wish to > pick, it might be educational. > > > On Mon, Jul 28, 2008 at 7:54 PM, Natália Maranca wrote: > >> Pynchon's descriptions of sex vary a lot in style depending on the >> context. Besides, it's not the first time he uses crude sexual violence to >> make a point, it's all through GR. Here, by showing the wickedness of the >> two killers, he is actually casting light in psychological problems of >> Lake herself, demonstrating how much of a masochist she is, and why she >> should be despised just as much as Deuce and Sloat. This is crucial for our >> involvement in the novel, because we are following the story inside the >> brothers' point of view, who clearly want their sister dead along with Vibe >> and the hired guns. The scene is poorly written and sick, and it should be >> this way. It should inspire a negative reaction, but directed at the >> characters and not the writer. But then, the "reader, she bit him" piece, I >> don't think I could defend it. I found it amusing, and that's all. Perhaps >> of no literary value, but it fits in the whole of AtD... >> >> >> On Mon, Jul 28, 2008 at 3:17 PM, Mark Kohut wrote: >> >>> LOL >>> >>> >>> --- On Mon, 7/28/08, kelber at mindspring.com >>> wrote: >>> >>> > From: kelber at mindspring.com >>> > Subject: Re: It's hard to believe Thomas Pynchon wrote a sentence as >>> bad as this one >>> > To: pynchon-l at waste.org >>> > Date: Monday, July 28, 2008, 1:07 PM >>> > The "Reader, she bit him" sequence on p. 666 >>> > evoked similarly negative reactions. Was it a bad parody >>> > of Jane Austen or just bad? It's always possible to >>> > ascribe complex motivations behind every sentence, every >>> > decision TRP makes, but sometimes a Tatzelwurm is just a >>> > Tatzelwurm. >>> > >>> > Laura >>> > >>> > -----Original Message----- >>> > >From: Dave Monroe >>> > >Sent: Jul 28, 2008 12:03 PM >>> > >To: Pynchon-L >>> > >Subject: It's hard to believe Thomas Pynchon wrote >>> > a sentence as bad as this one >>> > > >>> > >27.7.08 >>> > >It's hard to believe Thomas Pynchon wrote a >>> > sentence as bad as this one. >>> > > >>> > >"After she had given in to the notion of being >>> > doubled up on, she >>> > >found herself going out of the way looking for it, >>> > usually one in her >>> > >mouth, the other from behind, sometimes in her ass, so >>> > she got quickly >>> > >used to tasting her own fluids mixed with shit." >>> > > >>> > >There's more before and after that, mentions of >>> > being chained to a bed >>> > >with leather hobbles and an instance of "you dirty >>> > fuckmouth whore" >>> > >but that sentence is representative of the section of >>> > "Against the >>> > >Day" in question. I've seen it referred to as >>> > the "Cowboy S+M" >>> > >section; it's just one page but it's so poorly >>> > written and oddly out >>> > >of place that I've been puzzling about it on and >>> > off since I read it. >>> > > >>> > >The rest of the book is excellent. Hugh Kenner wrote a >>> > little piece >>> > >about Joyce beginning "Ulysses" in naturalism >>> > and ending it in parody >>> > >and in "Against the Day" Pynchon seems so far >>> > to take the opposite >>> > >tack, the entire book opening firmly in a parody of >>> > boy's adventure >>> > >magazine (Doc Savage-type stuff) but becoming more >>> > grounded in tone as >>> > >the demands of reality intrude on the characters. So >>> > there are the >>> > >Chums of Chance and their airship The Inconvenience in >>> > the >>> > >aforementioned whiz-bang mode, Lew Basnight beginning >>> > in a Kafkaesque >>> > >version of Chicago (complete with unspecified sins and >>> > surreal dive >>> > >hotels) and proceeding through the American West to >>> > England and a >>> > >version of Blavatsky and Yeats's mysticisms, Merle >>> > Rideout and his >>> > >daughter Dahlia in an off-kilter version of "Paper >>> > Moon" and so on, >>> > >all at the turn of the century, and alternately >>> > interacting and >>> > >working at cross-purposes. >>> > > >>> > >The S+M scene is part of the Western revenge saga of >>> > the Traverse >>> > >family that takes up large parts of the book at a time >>> > and which >>> > >actually I frequently find the hardest sections to get >>> > through, though >>> > >I'm trying to reserve judgment until I actually >>> > finish the whole >>> > >thing. That particular scene makes sense as regards the >>> > motifs of the >>> > >book, the journeys of the characters involved, and >>> > setting up a >>> > >situation which will apparently be crucial to the >>> > Traverse storyline >>> > >but it's the execution of it that bugs me. Maybe >>> > Pynchon was parodying >>> > >cheap smut like Tijuana Bibles or Penthouse stories but >>> > that's a >>> > >stretch, it doesn't read as parody or homage in any >>> > way . . . I >>> > >respect Pynchon's writing ability, so it comes as >>> > even more a >>> > >surprise, especially in the middle of a work so >>> > well-written and >>> > >elsewise engaging. >>> > > >>> > >My only other experience with Pynchon is the first 30 >>> > or so pages of >>> > >"Gravity's Rainbow" but I've read >>> > about him and some miscellanea of >>> > >his, letters, essays etc. and many of his pet interests >>> > and issues >>> > >show up in "Against the Day", some reviewers >>> > having called it a sort >>> > >of summation of his life's writing (guy is pretty >>> > old by now). Ideas >>> > >about capitalism, the use of anarchy as a way to oppose >>> > >industrialization and its effect on worker's >>> > rights, the acquisition >>> > >of technology for profitable or military means, the >>> > uses of theories >>> > >and hypotheses otherwise marginalized by the mainstream >>> > scientific >>> > >community and, very interesting to me, the sense of a >>> > fictive space >>> > >(that term is used in reference to the Chums of Chance, >>> > with Lew >>> > >Basnight it's the Invisible Area, and to the >>> > scientists it's the is >>> > >it/isn't it existence of a substance called >>> > Aether), a space where >>> > >these characters can exist indefinitely, only half-seen >>> > by the rest of >>> > >society, but a space constantly threatened by the >>> > encroachment of >>> > >actual "reality", usually represented by the >>> > needs of industrialists >>> > >like Scarsdale Vibe or the shadowy Organization that >>> > sends the Chums >>> > >on their missions. An early example is the first >>> > chapter, where the >>> > >1893 Chicago World's Fair is described as wrapped >>> > in fiction and >>> > >wonder, but the moment the Chums leave it, they're >>> > prey to regular >>> > >human emotions and pettiness, reflected by a shift in >>> > their dialogue >>> > >and the narrative voice. >>> > > >>> > >Parallels can also be drawn to the current political >>> > climate, if >>> > >that's your thing. Blinded by their own arrogance >>> > and confidence in >>> > >their abilities, a scientific expedition brings a >>> > horrible power to a >>> > >large metropolis (never named, but clearly New York >>> > City), initiating >>> > >one cataclysmic night of flames where people flee giant >>> > clouds of >>> > >smoke that rush down the city streets, and clog transit >>> > systems in a >>> > >panic to escape. The city is afterward described as >>> > forgetting the >>> > >actual event, the nature and significance of the >>> > attack, only >>> > >remembering a vague injury to their superiority and >>> > paying their >>> > >respects to it by leaving the charred portion of the >>> > city intact, >>> > >establishing it as a memorial by erecting a gate with a >>> > quote from >>> > >Dante etched on the arch. >>> > > >>> > >All in all, an excellent book so far and one I >>> > don't mind as my >>> > >introduction to Pynchon, but I'd still like answers >>> > about the cowboy >>> > >threesome. >>> > > >>> > > >>> http://phenoptosis.blogspot.com/2008/07/its-hard-to-believe-thomas-pynchon.html >>> > > >>> > >"No symbols where none intended." --Samuel >>> > Beckett >>> >>> >>> >>> >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mryc2903 at yahoo.fr Tue Jul 29 13:04:58 2008 From: mryc2903 at yahoo.fr (Michel Ryckx) Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2008 20:04:58 +0200 Subject: What to read next? In-Reply-To: References: <598363.81285.qm@web38401.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <488F5BCA.8060709@yahoo.fr> OK - still have to write something about IPW2008. But: one of the more interesting questions popping up in several lectures (discussed over during day, afterwards in bars, restaurants, cafes) was how to read that strange phrase Fly towards grace, compared to the lines just above it. Worth a short discussion, methinks. Puzzled me, at least. Dave Monroe schreef: > On Mon, Jul 28, 2008 at 8:28 PM, Mark Kohut wrote: > >>> I vote for the consensus.......... >>> > > This now explains the last eight years or so of American politics ... > > ... but I've been settin' a spell on this question myself, and one > thing I'd like to see happen here--to the point where maybe I'll even > go to the effort to contribute--is to take some time ("some time") for > a general discussion/assessment/whatever of AtD, perhaps revisit > reviews, scholarly paers which have popped up in the meantime, not to > mention our own expectations for the damn thing, perhaps to consider > the novel's realationship to the Pynchonian ouevre as a whole, perhaps > even to contemporary lit'rachure (of which I personally know nothing > save Pynchon, but ...) .., > > This reminds me of something Michel kindly sent me, one moment ... > > > ___________________________________________________________________________ Yahoo! Mail r�invente le mail ! D�couvrez le nouveau Yahoo! Mail et son interface r�volutionnaire. http://fr.mail.yahoo.com From mryc2903 at yahoo.fr Tue Jul 29 13:46:16 2008 From: mryc2903 at yahoo.fr (Michel Ryckx) Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2008 20:46:16 +0200 Subject: Contre-Jour, 4 sept 2008 Message-ID: <488F6578.6080703@yahoo.fr> French translation of Atd is considered in the French press to be one of the few highlights of the Fall 2008 literary season. Compliments already all over the place. Claro, translator, wanted to have it translated as Face a Jour -- which would have been a nice wor(l)d play. However, Pynchon insisted on Contre-Jour, as Christophe Claro told on (in French): http://towardgrace.blogspot.com/2008/05/contre-jour.html Michel. ___________________________________________________________________________ Yahoo! Mail réinvente le mail ! Découvrez le nouveau Yahoo! Mail et son interface révolutionnaire. http://fr.mail.yahoo.com From markekohut at yahoo.com Tue Jul 29 14:00:32 2008 From: markekohut at yahoo.com (Mark Kohut) Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2008 12:00:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: What to read next? In-Reply-To: <488F5BCA.8060709@yahoo.fr> Message-ID: <314647.40628.qm@web38404.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Hey,we are almost there.........my penultimate hosting ends this week, then Robin will write toward grace musically. I'm sure we all have ideas.....KEY to overarching meaning (or meanings) or one of them anyway........................ --- On Tue, 7/29/08, Michel Ryckx wrote: > From: Michel Ryckx > Subject: Re: What to read next? > To: "Dave Monroe" > Cc: markekohut at yahoo.com, "pynchon -l" , kelber at mindspring.com, robinlandseadel at comcast.net > Date: Tuesday, July 29, 2008, 2:04 PM > OK - still have to write something about IPW2008. But: one > of the more > interesting questions popping up in several lectures > (discussed over > during day, afterwards in bars, restaurants, cafes) was how > to read that > strange phrase Fly towards grace, compared to the lines > just above it. > > Worth a short discussion, methinks. Puzzled me, at least. > > > Dave Monroe schreef: > > On Mon, Jul 28, 2008 at 8:28 PM, Mark Kohut > wrote: > > > >>> I vote for the consensus.......... > >>> > > > > This now explains the last eight years or so of > American politics ... > > > > ... but I've been settin' a spell on this > question myself, and one > > thing I'd like to see happen here--to the point > where maybe I'll even > > go to the effort to contribute--is to take some time > ("some time") for > > a general discussion/assessment/whatever of AtD, > perhaps revisit > > reviews, scholarly paers which have popped up in the > meantime, not to > > mention our own expectations for the damn thing, > perhaps to consider > > the novel's realationship to the Pynchonian ouevre > as a whole, perhaps > > even to contemporary lit'rachure (of which I > personally know nothing > > save Pynchon, but ...) .., > > > > This reminds me of something Michel kindly sent me, > one moment ... > > > > > > > > > > > > > ___________________________________________________________________________ > > Yahoo! Mail réinvente le mail ! Découvrez le nouveau > Yahoo! Mail et son interface révolutionnaire. > http://fr.mail.yahoo.com From markekohut at yahoo.com Tue Jul 29 14:26:11 2008 From: markekohut at yahoo.com (Mark Kohut) Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2008 12:26:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Or Wait, wait, don't tell me (yet) In-Reply-To: <314647.40628.qm@web38404.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <11959.70613.qm@web38402.mail.mud.yahoo.com> > Hey,we are almost there.........my penultimate hosting ends > this week, then > Robin will write toward grace musically. > > I'm sure we all have ideas.....KEY to overarching > meaning (or meanings) or one of them > anyway........................ > > > --- On Tue, 7/29/08, Michel Ryckx > wrote: > > > From: Michel Ryckx > > Subject: Re: What to read next? > > To: "Dave Monroe" > > > Cc: markekohut at yahoo.com, "pynchon -l" > , kelber at mindspring.com, > robinlandseadel at comcast.net > > Date: Tuesday, July 29, 2008, 2:04 PM > > OK - still have to write something about IPW2008. > But: one > > of the more > > interesting questions popping up in several lectures > > (discussed over > > during day, afterwards in bars, restaurants, cafes) > was how > > to read that > > strange phrase Fly towards grace, compared to the > lines > > just above it. > > > > Worth a short discussion, methinks. Puzzled me, at > least. > > > > > > Dave Monroe schreef: > > > On Mon, Jul 28, 2008 at 8:28 PM, Mark Kohut > > wrote: > > > > > >>> I vote for the consensus.......... > > >>> > > > > > > This now explains the last eight years or so of > > American politics ... > > > > > > ... but I've been settin' a spell on this > > question myself, and one > > > thing I'd like to see happen here--to the > point > > where maybe I'll even > > > go to the effort to contribute--is to take some > time > > ("some time") for > > > a general discussion/assessment/whatever of AtD, > > perhaps revisit > > > reviews, scholarly paers which have popped up in > the > > meantime, not to > > > mention our own expectations for the damn thing, > > perhaps to consider > > > the novel's realationship to the Pynchonian > ouevre > > as a whole, perhaps > > > even to contemporary lit'rachure (of which I > > personally know nothing > > > save Pynchon, but ...) .., > > > > > > This reminds me of something Michel kindly sent > me, > > one moment ... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ___________________________________________________________________________ > > > > Yahoo! Mail réinvente le mail ! Découvrez le nouveau > > Yahoo! Mail et son interface révolutionnaire. > > http://fr.mail.yahoo.com From markekohut at yahoo.com Tue Jul 29 15:50:05 2008 From: markekohut at yahoo.com (Mark Kohut) Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2008 13:50:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: AtD (37) p.1057 Discussion alert! Major meaning section, ?? thinks Host Message-ID: <222027.22351.qm@web38404.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Lew Basnight, detective, a book-length thread of meanings in AtD has a revelation........ What does it mean? Who are all these people Lew is interacting with at Carefree Court(!); a crowd even he, old L.A. hand, finds hard to "read"? Just a Hollywood crowd? or as broad a crossection of humanity as America was becoming--lotsa immmigrants in Hollywood---working daily in the 'new America' of 'mediated reality', not hard labor? The flush, energetic, wide-open [much anti-Puritanism, say some historians, flapper and booze 1920s? Can we see the whole crooked timber of humanity'--Kant--at this gathering? ; "the whole stock and joint company" --[Ishmael in Moby Dick]--living working in the daylit fiction that is America? Lew "seeing the great point and in the 'same instant' "recognizing the ongoing crime that had been his own life"....."Self-clarity" .........."a mortal sin"........???? WTF? Okay, pretty important revelation to understand Lew and more of AtD, yes? Why is such self-clarity a mortal sin? [Am I reading that right?]...."mortal sin" is a concept from the Western Christian tradition mostly. Shows Lew's religion in his upbringing [he is Presbyterian]. A mortal sin is one that totally cuts one off from God, goes the tradition. How could this 'self-clarity' totally cut him off from his God?....A revelation that his whole life had been 'an ongoing crime"...not acts he committed but his whole life. ?? Trying to catch this ragtag assembly of humanity is the ongoing crime? This some W.A.S.T.E.-like motley group of human beings, 'displaying scars and tattoos, etc." all 'having survived some calamity" ?? Or is Lew 'unreliable' in his reflections here? So, once Lew recognized that it was a 'crime' to chase the preterites, as it were, then he is no longer on the side of the Elect? No longer a believer in the Church's/Society's way of judging, so his 'mortal sin' is to not believe.? (THAT cuts one off from one's Christian God while one is in that state, fer sure)..... It is this that got him unambiguously dynamited into his new life. ??? Comments sought, please. I have other thoughts which I will spare for now in order to open the discussion against my words above.... From grladams at teleport.com Tue Jul 29 16:00:54 2008 From: grladams at teleport.com (grladams at teleport.com) Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2008 17:00:54 -0400 Subject: what to read next that isn't pynchon Message-ID: <380-2200872292105439@M2W025.mail2web.com> Thomas Mann's "Magic Mountain" is in a new English translation, (not new-new but still new) that's supposed to be much better to read. I'd be up for that. I've always wanted to read the Odyssey but wondered if anyone on this list had a favorite English edition? The Odyssey / Homer ; translated by Edward McCrorie, with an introduction and notes by Richard P. Martin; Johns Hopkins 2004 Odyssey / Homer ; translated by Lombardo, Stanley, 1943- ; introduction by Sheila Murnaghan. The Odyssey / Homer ; translated by Robert Fitzgerald 1910-; introduction by D.S. Carne-Ross. The Odyssey / Homer ; translated by Robert Fagles ; introduction and notes by Bernard Knox. Note: "This [pbk.] edition contains minor revisions of the text"--P. 496. The odyssey / translated by Hammond, Martin, 1944- ; with an introduction by Jasper Griffin. The odyssey of Homer / translated by George Herbert Palmer 1842-1933.. and many others I'm sure Jill Original Message: ----------------- From: robinlandseadel at comcast.net Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2008 11:45:12 +0000 To: pynchon-l at waste.org (P-list) Subject: RE: what to read next that isn't pynchon "Henry" : Big Book: Isn't there a comparatively recent translation of War and Peace that's supposed to be top drawer? Anyone read it yet? Anthony Briggs for Viking Press: http://www.amazon.com/War-Peace-Leo-Tolstoy/dp/067003469X I bought my copy two years back, but between Proust & Pynchon, my eyeballs are in search of shorter, more digestable works. Not to mention this mounting pile of metaphysical texts constantly demanding my attention. Evola on Heremetics is proving to be quite the education: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julius_Evola In addition to W & P, there are two early 20th century masterworks that seem to apply—Hesse's "The Glass Bead Game" and Thomas Mann's "Magic Mountain." But I suspect the "open sesame" will be: http://tinyurl.com/5vsju9 http://www.hermeticgoldendawn.org/Documents/Bios/regardie.htm -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://link.mail2web.com/mail2web From robinlandseadel at comcast.net Tue Jul 29 16:47:40 2008 From: robinlandseadel at comcast.net (robinlandseadel at comcast.net) Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2008 21:47:40 +0000 Subject: AtD (37) p.1057 Discussion alert! Major meaning section, ?? thinks Host Message-ID: <072920082147.16527.488F8FFC0007751B0000408F2216527966040A0B0E0A9C0B020E0402070D019D@comcast.net> MK: Trying to catch this ragtag assembly of humanity is the ongoing crime? This some W.A.S.T.E.-like motley group of human beings, 'displaying scars and tattoos, etc." all 'having survived some calamity" ?? Or is Lew 'unreliable' in his reflections here? So, once Lew recognized that it was a 'crime' to chase the preterites, as it were, then he is no longer on the side of the Elect? No longer a believer in the Church's/Society's way of judging, so his 'mortal sin' is to not believe.?(THAT cuts one off from one's Christian God while one is in that state, fer sure)..... It is this that got him unambiguously dynamited into his new life. ??? Comments sought, please. "It's too late," he said. "For me?" "For me." Before she could ask what he meant, he'd hung up. She had no more coins. . . . . . . .Suppose, God, there really was a Tristero then and that she had come on it by accident. If San Narciso and the estate were really no different from any other town, any other estate, then by that continuity she might have found The Tristero anywhere in her Republic, through any of a hundred lightly-concealed entranceways, a hundred alienations, if only she'd looked. She stopped a minute between the steel rails, raising her head as if to sniff the air. Becoming conscious of the hard, strung presence she stood on knowing as if maps had been flashed for her on the sky how these tracks ran on into others, others, knowing they laced, deepened, authenticated the great night around her. If only she'd looked. She remembered now old Pullman cars, left where the money'd run out or the customers vanished, amid green farm flatnesses where clothes hung, smoke lazed out of jointed pipes. Were the squatters there in touch with others, through Tristero; were they helping carry forward that 300 years of the house's disinheritance? Surely they'd forgotten by now what it was the Tristero were to have inherited; as perhaps Oedipa one day might have. What was left to inherit? That America coded in Inverarity's testament, whose was that? She thought of other, immobilized freight cars, where the kids sat on the floor planking and sang back, happy as fat, whatever came over the mother's pocket radio; of other squatters who stretched canvas for lean-tos behind smiling billboards along all the highways, or slept in junkyards in the stripped shells of wrecked Plymouths, or even, daring, spent the night up some pole in a lineman's tent like caterpillars, swung among a web of telephone wires, living in the very copper rigging and secular miracle of communication, untroubled by the dumb voltages flickering their miles, the night long, in the thousands of unheard messages. She remembered drifters she had listened to, Americans speaking their language carefully, scholarly, as if they were in exile from somewhere else invisible yet congruent with the cheered land she lived in; and walkers along the roads at night, zooming in and out of your headlights without looking up, too far from any town to have a real destination. And the voices before and after the dead man's that had phoned at random during the darkest, slowest hours, searching ceaseless among the dial's ten million possibilities for that magical Other who would reveal herself out of the roar of relays, monotone litanies of insult, filth, fantasy, love whose brute repetition must someday call into being the trigger for the unnamable act, the recognition, the Word. How many shared Tristero's secret, as well as its exile? What would the probate judge have to say about spreading some kind of a legacy among them all, all those nameless, maybe as a. first installment? Oboy. He'd be on her ass in a microsecond, revoke her letters testamentary, they'd call her names, proclaim her through all Orange County as a redistributionist and pinko, slip the old man from Warpe, Wistfull, Kubitschek and McMingus in as administrator de bonis non and so much baby for code, constellations, shadow-legatees. Who knew? Perhaps she'd be hounded someday as far as joining Tristero itself, if it existed, in its twilight, its aloofness, its waiting. The waiting above all; if not for another set of possibilities to replace those that had conditioned the land to accept any San Narciso among its most tender flesh without a reflex or a cry, then at least, at the very least, waiting for a symmetry of choices to break down, to go skew. She had heard all about excluded middles; they were bad shit, to be avoided; and how had it ever happened here, with the chances once so good for diversity? For it was now like walking among matrices of a great digital computer, the zeroes and ones twinned above, hanging like balanced mobiles right and left, ahead, thick, maybe endless. Behind the hieroglyphic streets there would either be a transcendent meaning, or only the earth. In the songs Miles, Dean, Serge and Leonard sang was either some fraction of the truth's numinous beauty (as Mucho now believed) or only a power spectrum. Tremaine the Swastika Salesman's reprieve from holocaust was either an injustice, or the absence of a wind; the bones of the GI's at the bottom of Lake In-verarity were there either for a reason that mattered to the world, or for skin divers and cigarette smokers. Ones and zeroes. So did the couples arrange themselves. At Vesperhaven House either an accommodation reached, in some kind of dignity, with the Angel of Death, or only death and the daily, tedious preparations for it. Another mode of meaning behind the obvious, or none. Either Oedipa in the orbiting ecstasy of a true paranoia, or a real Tristero. For there either was some Tristero beyond the appearance of the legacy America, or there was just America and if there was just America then it seemed the only way she could continue, and manage to be at all relevant to it, was as an alien, unfurrowed, assumed full circle into some paranoia. CoL49, pages146/151 From malignd at aol.com Tue Jul 29 16:52:20 2008 From: malignd at aol.com (malignd at aol.com) Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2008 17:52:20 -0400 Subject: what to read next that isn't pynchon In-Reply-To: <39a39c310807282303j23e79eb6ka7282cf95893bccb@mail.gmail.com> References: <39a39c310807282303j23e79eb6ka7282cf95893bccb@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <8CABFDC82C60345-CE0-87C@webmail-da08.sysops.aol.com> Try Gaddis.  A Frolic of His Own or JR. Or Terry Southern.  Flash and Filigree, for instance. Or Tom McGuane, if you've never read him. Or Dog of the South by Charles Portis. Or about anything by Thomas Berger.  Who Is Teddy Villanova? Or Jorge Amado, Home is the Sailor. Or the Beckett trilogy.  Or Murphy. Or Flann O'Brien. I also just re-read Him With His Foot In His Mouth, a novella and stories by Saul Bellow.  It's pretty amazing.  His paragraphs go effortlessly from high to low, from slang to erudition, from wiseass to high serious.  Really great stuff.  Or virtually any of his novels.  Try Humboldt's Gift. I could do this all day ... -----Original Message----- From: JD To: pynchon -l Sent: Tue, 29 Jul 2008 2:03 am Subject: what to read next that isn't pynchon Please advise.  Handbook of Drawing is still not in English.  God damnit. Darkmans was terrible. Terrible. I'm sorry. Vollmann sniffs his own ass so hard I can hear it from here.  At least he tries.  Still smells like shit. Omega Minor was fun, and worthwhile. Summer in Termuren(sp?) was worthwhile.  But old. I subscribe to One Store because I like their format.  It's all horrible.  One of their contributors had a national endowment of the arts grant and a gugenheim grant and reading her bullshit made me want to stab myself in the eye.  Good on her being able to game the system, but dear lord. New authors, please. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From malignd at aol.com Tue Jul 29 16:56:07 2008 From: malignd at aol.com (malignd at aol.com) Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2008 17:56:07 -0400 Subject: what to read next that isn't pynchon In-Reply-To: <072920081145.10350.488F02C8000945290000286E2214756402040A0B0E0A9C0B020E0402070D019D@comcast.net> References: <072920081145.10350.488F02C8000945290000286E2214756402040A0B0E0A9C0B020E0402070D019D@comcast.net> Message-ID: <8CABFDD09F3CE1A-CE0-8B1@webmail-da08.sysops.aol.com> My wife read it.  Liked it a lot.  She read Constance Garnett's Anna Karenina and thought the new W&P an improvement.  Worth noting, as Garnett has been the standard for both books for nearly a century. "Henry" : Big Book: Isn't there a comparatively recent translation of War and Peace that's supposed to be top drawer? Anyone read it yet? -----Original Message----- From: robinlandseadel at comcast.net To: P-list Sent: Tue, 29 Jul 2008 7:45 am Subject: RE: what to read next that isn't pynchon "Henry" : Big Book: Isn't there a comparatively recent translation of War and Peace that's supposed to be top drawer? Anyone read it yet? Anthony Briggs for Viking Press: http://www.amazon.com/War-Peace-Leo-Tolstoy/dp/067003469X I bought my copy two years back, but between Proust & Pynchon, my eyeballs are in search of shorter, more digestable works. Not to mention this mounting pile of metaphysical texts constantly demanding my attention. Evola on Heremetics is proving to be quite the education: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julius_Evola In addition to W & P, there are two early 20th century masterworks that seem to apply—Hesse's "The Glass Bead Game" and Thomas Mann's "Magic Mountain." But I suspect the "open sesame" will be: http://tinyurl.com/5vsju9 http://www.h ermeticgoldendawn.org/Documents/Bios/regardie.htm -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From robinlandseadel at comcast.net Tue Jul 29 17:11:47 2008 From: robinlandseadel at comcast.net (robinlandseadel at comcast.net) Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2008 22:11:47 +0000 Subject: AtD (37) p.1057 Discussion alert! Major meaning section, ?? thinks Host Message-ID: <072920082211.23222.488F95A2000F3F3C00005AB62216538496040A0B0E0A9C0B020E0402070D019D@comcast.net> Something to note about that passage in "The Crying of Lot 49": I probably never noticed this before�having read "The Automobile Graveyard" for the first time this year�this scene in 49� . . . .or slept in junkyards in the stripped shells of wrecked Plymouths, or even, daring, spent the night up some pole in a lineman's tent like caterpillars, swung among a web of telephone wires, living in the very copper rigging and secular miracle of communication. . . . Sounds much like: The play takes place in front of an automobile graveyard. In the background, the carcasses of automobiles piled on top of each other. The automobles are all old, dirty and rusty. Those in the first row have burlap curtains instead of glass in the windows. Fernando Arrabal: "The Automobile Graveyard", page 9 The characters in "The Automobile Graveyard" for the most part live in these junked cars, some are even lower�begging to get into one of these wrecks. This is the side of the tracks Oedipa never really was aware of before. Lew moving into acceptance of his preterite status might be the curtain-raiser for the actual final resolution of the novel's traditional "plot" with the final downfall of Deuce. And then into the unknown future and the novel's coda. From robinlandseadel at comcast.net Tue Jul 29 17:34:06 2008 From: robinlandseadel at comcast.net (robinlandseadel at comcast.net) Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2008 22:34:06 +0000 Subject: AtD (37) p.1057 Discussion alert! Major meaning section, ?? thinks Host Message-ID: <072920082234.25212.488F9ADE0006B6460000627C2216538496040A0B0E0A9C0B020E0402070D019D@comcast.net> More on Arrabal: Jesus Arrabal's "Anarchist Miracle" would be some sort of horrible fright, as far as I can tell: In an all-night Mexican greasy spoon off 24th, she found a piece of her past, in the form of one Jesus Arrabal, who was sitting in a corner under the TV set, idly stirring his bowl of opaque soup with the foot of a chicken. "Hey," he greeted Oedipa, "you were the lady in Mazatlan." He beckoned her to sit. "You remember everything," Oedipa said, "Jesus; even tourists. How is your CIA?" Standing not for the agency you think, but for a clandestine Mexican outfit known as the Conjuration de los Insurgentes Anarquis-tas, traceable back to the time of the Flores Mag6n brothers and later briefly allied with Zapata. "You see. In exile," waving his arm around at the place. He was part-owner here with a yucateco who still believed in the Revolution. Their Revolution. "And you. Are you still with that gringo who spent too much money on you? The oligarchist, the miracle?" "He died." "Ah, pobrecito." They had met Jesus Arrabal on the beach, where he had previously announced an anti-government rally. Nobody had showed up. So he fell to talking to Inverarity, the enemy he must, to be true to his faith, learn. Pierce, because of his neutral manners when in the presence of ill-will, had nothing to tell Arrabal; he played the rich, obnoxious gringo so perfectly that Oedipa had seen gooseflesh come up along the anarchist's forearms, due to no Pacific sea-breeze. Soon as Pierce went off to sport in the surf, Arrabal asked her if he was real, or a spy, or making fun of him. Oedipa didn't understand. "Yon know what a miracle is. Not what Bakunin said. But another world's intrusion into this one. Most of the time we coexist peacefully, but when we do touch there's cataclysm. Like the church we hate, anarchists also believe in another world. Where revolutions break out spontaneous and leaderless, and the soul's talent for consensus allows the masses to work together without effort, automatic as the body itself. And yet, sena, if any of it should ever really happen that perfectly, I would also have to cry miracle. An anarchist miracle. Like your friend. He is too exactly and without flaw the thing we fight. In Mexico the privilegiado is always, to a finite percentage, redeemed one of the people. Unmiraculous. But your friend, unless he's joking, is as terrifying to me as a Virgin appearing to an Indian." CoL49,96/97 Arrabal, the playwright, as a founder of the "Panic" movement worked to create "Anarchist Miracles" and in Guillermo del Toro there are Anarchist miracles as well, continuing the work of Arrabal and Jorodowsky. Anarchism being a major thread in Against the Day it pays to note Arrabal's presence in Pynchon's writing. From richardryannyc at yahoo.com Tue Jul 29 18:10:01 2008 From: richardryannyc at yahoo.com (Richard Ryan) Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2008 16:10:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: what to read next that isn't pynchon In-Reply-To: <8CABFDD09F3CE1A-CE0-8B1@webmail-da08.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <860376.34237.qm@web50704.mail.re2.yahoo.com> This is an appealing recommendation, but then I see dissenters on the Briggs translation complaining about the soldiers' voices being rendered in Cockney, the French phrases being translated without comment, the German and French characters being given accents, a character with a speech impediment being made to sound like Elmer Fudd, etc.  That certainly gives one pause. I liked the Maude translation of Anna K. well enough.  It seemed elegant and readable - the professor I read it with 20 years ago, who was fluent in Russian, said he thought it was the best of Tolstoy translations in English. Never read "W&P" and probably should get down to it if I'm ever going to..... --- On Tue, 7/29/08, malignd at aol.com wrote: From: malignd at aol.com Subject: Re: what to read next that isn't pynchon To: pynchon-l at waste.org Date: Tuesday, July 29, 2008, 5:56 PM My wife read it. Liked it a lot. She read Constance Garnett's Anna Karenina and thought the new W&P an improvement. Worth noting, as Garnett has been the standard for both books for nearly a century. "Henry" : Big Book: Isn't there a comparatively recent translation of War and Peace that's supposed to be top drawer? Anyone read it yet? -----Original Message----- From: robinlandseadel at comcast.net To: P-list Sent: Tue, 29 Jul 2008 7:45 am Subject: RE: what to read next that isn't pynchon "Henry" : Big Book: Isn't there a comparatively recent translation of War and Peace that's supposed to be top drawer? Anyone read it yet? Anthony Briggs for Viking Press: http://www.amazon.com/War-Peace-Leo-Tolstoy/dp/067003469X I bought my copy two years back, but between Proust & Pynchon, my eyeballs are in search of shor ter, more digestable works. Not to mention this mounting pile of metaphysical texts constantly demanding my attention. Evola on Heremetics is proving to be quite the education: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julius_Evola In addition to W & P, there are two early 20th century masterworks that seem to apply—Hesse's "The Glass Bead Game" and Thomas Mann's "Magic Mountain." But I suspect the "open sesame" will be: http://tinyurl.com/5vsju9 http://www.hermeticgoldendawn.org/Documents/Bios/regardie.htm The Famous, the Infamous, the Lame - in your browser. Get the TMZ Toolbar Now! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From malignd at aol.com Tue Jul 29 21:23:23 2008 From: malignd at aol.com (malignd at aol.com) Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2008 22:23:23 -0400 Subject: what to read next that isn't pynchon In-Reply-To: <635104.67644.qm@web38402.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <8CAC0025FD95A39-208-2F74@webmail-de13.sysops.aol.com> It's because of the way people read, and the way they think they should think about literature, in part.  A great and very funny writer like Berger, who I think couldn't write a book that wouldn't be fun and provoking to read, doesn't traffic in big ideas or social commentary, except from so far in left field that people miss it.  Plus his books are, usually, small and entertaining, as though that were a fault (see Muriel Spark).  But sentence by sentence he's wonderful--nasty, smart, funny, and masterful.  And the two Little Big Man books are truly worthy of anyone's consideration as major books, and Arthur Rex, his telling of the Arthur legends, is the one I would recommend to anyone who asked.  But I would argue as vehemently for all the rest.  He's a wonderful, maybe great, writer, living too far under the radar. In short, he falls between the cracks.  But a great career with nary a bad novel. Why you think Berger does not seem to have the readership, cult or larger that some of the others of his time do?...TRP, of course, Gaddis, Gass, Barth? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nmaranca at gmail.com Tue Jul 29 23:17:38 2008 From: nmaranca at gmail.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Nat=E1lia_Maranca?=) Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2008 01:17:38 -0300 Subject: AtD reviews Message-ID: <79e49fac0807292117y59005f58ud6835408d50d4734@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, Jul 29, 2008 at 11:59 AM, wrote: > Does anyone have any links to online articles about ATD? > Guide of most reviews Powell's Books list of reviews Costumers from Goodreads List from Metacritic Editorial reviews from Amazon Costumer reviews from Amazon Costumer reviews from Amazon.co.uk List from Reviewsofbooks.com My own list (includes newspapers, magazines and blogs): About.com The Adirondack Review The Age The American Prospect The Austin Chronicle Beatbots The Bedside Crow Bookforum Bookpage Boston Globe The Boston Phoenix Cecil Vortex's Deathmarch Chicago Reader The Christian Science Monitor Citypaper Conversational Reading Counterpunch Crazymonk Curled up Daily Telegraph Der Tagesspiegel Denver Post Dissident Voice The Elegant Variation Entertainment Weekly Faz.net Financial Times GRAAT papers Gravity7 The Guardian The Harvard Book Review Houston Chronicle Humanist Iceland Spar The Independent The Independent on Sunday January Magazine Johnny America Lawrence.com London Review of Books Los Angeles Times MathFiction The Millions Milwaukee Journal-Sentinel The Modern Word Mousey Girl West The Nation Newsday New Statesman Newsweek Newsweek (2) Newsweek (3) NY Magazine Books New Yorker New York Press NY Review of Books The New York Sun NY Times NY Times (2) NZZ The Observer The Observer (2) Philadelphia Inquirer Pigsaw Blog The Pittsburgh Post-Gazette Popmatters Prospect Publishers Weekly Raintaxi RBooks Reluctant Habits Ryan Reviews Salon San Francisco Chronicle SciFi Weekly Seattle Times Sign and Sight Sign on San Diego Strange Horizons The Sunday Times The Sydney Morning Herald Time Time Out The Times (TLS) USA Today The Village Voice Virginia Quarterly Review Washington Post The Washington Times If there's anything any of you might want to add, modify or correct, let me know. Contact me also if there's any trouble with the links. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From g.i.s.pursey at reading.ac.uk Wed Jul 30 04:51:54 2008 From: g.i.s.pursey at reading.ac.uk (Guy Ian Scott Pursey) Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2008 10:51:54 +0100 Subject: what to read next that isn't pynchon In-Reply-To: <380-2200872292105439@M2W025.mail2web.com> References: <380-2200872292105439@M2W025.mail2web.com> Message-ID: <0A9745774F2BF6409F9544231DCC26610943FE56@vime1.rdg-home.ad.rdg.ac.uk> Hi Jill I'm reading 'The Odyssey' at the moment - before I started, I procrastinated for a while, idly wondering which translation I should go for. Ultimately, I went for the T.E. Lawrence (aka T.E. Shaw and Lawrence of Arabia) translation as it's the one my Dad gave me when I was a kid. I don't know how it stands compared with other translations - I've heard he's a bit loose with the language and there are some anachronisms... But I'm not familiar with the original text or its language and I haven't read any other translation. I'm enjoying it so far. It's in prose though I've heard (as I'm sure you have) that other translations are in verse. I found this page which might help a little: http://www.editoreric.com/greatlit/translations/Odyssey.html I've read elsewhere that the Lattimore translation is the "best". More recently, my Dad gave me a copy of 'Seven Pillars of Wisdom' (also by Lawrence), which along with 'Against The Day' and 'Ulysses' I wanted to get through before the end of year. (Ha!) Guy -----Original Message----- From: owner-pynchon-l at waste.org [mailto:owner-pynchon-l at waste.org] On Behalf Of grladams at teleport.com Sent: 29 July 2008 22:01 To: robinlandseadel at comcast.net; p-list Subject: RE: what to read next that isn't pynchon Thomas Mann's "Magic Mountain" is in a new English translation, (not new-new but still new) that's supposed to be much better to read. I'd be up for that. I've always wanted to read the Odyssey but wondered if anyone on this list had a favorite English edition? The Odyssey / Homer ; translated by Edward McCrorie, with an introduction and notes by Richard P. Martin; Johns Hopkins 2004 Odyssey / Homer ; translated by Lombardo, Stanley, 1943- ; introduction by Sheila Murnaghan. The Odyssey / Homer ; translated by Robert Fitzgerald 1910-; introduction by D.S. Carne-Ross. The Odyssey / Homer ; translated by Robert Fagles ; introduction and notes by Bernard Knox. Note: "This [pbk.] edition contains minor revisions of the text"--P. 496. The odyssey / translated by Hammond, Martin, 1944- ; with an introduction by Jasper Griffin. The odyssey of Homer / translated by George Herbert Palmer 1842-1933.. and many others I'm sure Jill Original Message: ----------------- From: robinlandseadel at comcast.net Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2008 11:45:12 +0000 To: pynchon-l at waste.org (P-list) Subject: RE: what to read next that isn't pynchon "Henry" : Big Book: Isn't there a comparatively recent translation of War and Peace that's supposed to be top drawer? Anyone read it yet? Anthony Briggs for Viking Press: http://www.amazon.com/War-Peace-Leo-Tolstoy/dp/067003469X I bought my copy two years back, but between Proust & Pynchon, my eyeballs are in search of shorter, more digestable works. Not to mention this mounting pile of metaphysical texts constantly demanding my attention. Evola on Heremetics is proving to be quite the education: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julius_Evola In addition to W & P, there are two early 20th century masterworks that seem to apply-Hesse's "The Glass Bead Game" and Thomas Mann's "Magic Mountain." But I suspect the "open sesame" will be: http://tinyurl.com/5vsju9 http://www.hermeticgoldendawn.org/Documents/Bios/regardie.htm -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://link.mail2web.com/mail2web From robinlandseadel at comcast.net Wed Jul 30 05:18:31 2008 From: robinlandseadel at comcast.net (robinlandseadel at comcast.net) Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2008 10:18:31 +0000 Subject: what to read next that isn't pynchon Message-ID: <073020081018.9917.48903FF7000ACC91000026BD2215568884040A0B0E0A9C0B020E0402070D019D@comcast.net> I'm still staring at this one�perched on my desk in an oversized "coffee-table" edition�Dante's Divine Comedy. Have some reason to believe it relates to what we usually read. Only read the John Cardi translation of "Inferno" so far. My oversized comedy is of the Longfellow translation with Dore's engravings and is marked with the toothmarks of�no, not Cerberus� my little cat Java. From fqmorris at gmail.com Wed Jul 30 07:41:14 2008 From: fqmorris at gmail.com (David Morris) Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2008 07:41:14 -0500 Subject: what to read next that isn't pynchon In-Reply-To: <8CABFDC82C60345-CE0-87C@webmail-da08.sysops.aol.com> References: <39a39c310807282303j23e79eb6ka7282cf95893bccb@mail.gmail.com> <8CABFDC82C60345-CE0-87C@webmail-da08.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <7d461dc80807300541n29a2b93ayb43d22f24007abf2@mail.gmail.com> I'm currently halfway through *Atmospheric Disturbances* by Rivka Galchen. Very well written, reminding me somewhat of Nabokov. I recommend it. http://us.macmillan.com/atmosphericdisturbances#biography Rivka Galchen recieved her MD from the Mount Sinai Shool of Medicine, having spent a year in South America working on public health issues. Galchen recently completed her MFA at Columbia University, where she was a Robert Bingham Fellow. Her essay on the Many Worlds Interpretation of quantum mechanics was published in The Believer, and she is the recipient of a 2006 Rona Jaffe Foundation Writers' Award. Galchen lives in New York City. This is her first novel. Synopsis: When Dr. Leo Liebenstein's wife disappears, she leaves behind a single, confounding clue: a woman who looks, talks, and behaves exactly like her—oralmost exactly like her—and even audaciously claims to be her. While everyone else is fooled by this imposter, Leo knows better than to trust his senses in matters of the heart. Certain that the original Rema is alive and in hiding, Leo embarks on a quixotic journey to reclaim his lost love. With the help of his psychiatric patient Harvey—who believes himself to be a secret agent who can control the weather—Leo attempts to unravel the mystery of the spousal switch. His investigation leads him to the enigmatic guidance of the meteorologist Dr. Tzvi Gal-Chen, the secret workings of the Royal Academy of Meteorology in their cosmic conflict with the 49 Quantum Fathers, and the unwelcome conviction that somehow he—or maybe his wife, or maybe even Harvey—lies at the center of all these unfathomables. From the streets of New York to the southernmost reaches of Patagonia, Leo's erratic quest becomes a test of how far he is willing to take his struggle against the seemingly uncontestable truth he knows in his heart to be false. Atmospheric Disturbances is at once a moving love story, a dark comedy, a psychological thriller, and a deeply disturbing portrait of a fracturing mind. With tremendous compassion and dazzling literary sophistication, Rivka Galchen investigates the moment of crisis when you suddenly realize that the reality you insist upon is no longer one you can accept, and the person you love has become merely the person you live with. This highly inventive debut explores the mysterious nature of human relationships, and how we spend our lives trying to weather the storms of our own making. From malignd at aol.com Wed Jul 30 07:46:35 2008 From: malignd at aol.com (malignd at aol.com) Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2008 08:46:35 -0400 Subject: what to read next that isn't pynchon In-Reply-To: <600568.12035.qm@web38404.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <600568.12035.qm@web38404.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <8CAC0596F6E1D5B-1564-94D@webmail-md20.sysops.aol.com> This sums Berger up very well. <<"Hell is Other people" that Sartre line, is a major theme.>> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From markekohut at yahoo.com Wed Jul 30 07:51:24 2008 From: markekohut at yahoo.com (Mark Kohut) Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2008 05:51:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: barely P:from a review of a video art exhibition in London Message-ID: <20222.794.qm@web38407.mail.mud.yahoo.com> This was how the novelist Philip Roth saw Nixon as early as 1960, in an essay lamenting the plight of the novelist in a country that (and this is 43 years ago) seemed to be exceeding all bounds of plausibility, making fiction redundant. The most spectacular example of this was the sight of Nixon on television: "Perhaps as a satiric literary creation, he might have seemed 'believable'," wrote Roth, "but I myself found that on the TV screen, as a real public figure, a political fact, my mind balked at taking him in." As it turned out, American novelists rose to the challenge. Paranoia and conspiracy theory structure the fiction of Pynchon and DeLillo. Nixon inspired more cultural achievement than any other American president: the paranoid style in 1970s cinema, from The Conversation to Taxi Driver, constitutes a Nixon cycle. He even inspired an opera. But his contribution to the birth of video art is less well known. From fqmorris at gmail.com Wed Jul 30 08:50:20 2008 From: fqmorris at gmail.com (David Morris) Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2008 08:50:20 -0500 Subject: NP- Orwell Diaries Message-ID: <7d461dc80807300650j521e00fdr18ab34069b6da63d@mail.gmail.com> http://orwelldiaries.wordpress.com/ >From 9th August 2008, you will be able to gather your own impression of Orwell's face from reading his most strongly individual piece of writing: his diaries. The Orwell Prize is delighted to announce that, to mark the 70th anniversary of the diaries, each diary entry will be published on this blog exactly seventy years after it was written, allowing you to follow Orwell's recuperation in Morocco, his return to the UK, and his opinions on the descent of Europe into war in real time. The diaries end in 1942, three years into the conflict. From ottosell at googlemail.com Wed Jul 30 09:12:12 2008 From: ottosell at googlemail.com (Otto) Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2008 16:12:12 +0200 Subject: Estange - Mit spanischer Zunge Message-ID: Estange Mit spanischer Zunge Für den Fall, dass die p.t. Leser noch nach einer Ferienlektüre suchen: "Gegen den Tag" von Thomas Pynchon ist mit seinen 1600 Seiten zwar ein anspruchsvoller Ziegel, und es erschließt sich dem Leser auch nicht so ohne Weiteres, worum es in diesem Roman überhaupt geht. Aber er liest sich blendend und enthält eine Menge hinreißender Geschichten: Von Anarchisten in Colorado, die Ende des 19. Jahrhunderts alles in die Luft sprengen, was nicht niet- und nagelfest ist; von zwei einander erbittert bekämpfenden Mathematikerfraktionen; von einem Luftschiff namens Inconvenience, das, mit mehreren alterlosen Knaben besetzt, rund um den Erdball fliegt, sowie von einem Herren, der sich für einen Krapfen hält ("Ich bin ein Berliner") und von seinem Psychiater, Dr. Dingkopf, zur Therapie mit Staubzucker bestreut und ins Regal einer Bäckerei gelegt wird. Auf Seite 579 von "Gegen den Tag" stichelt ein Herr namens Ewball in New Mexico gegen einen gewissen El Ñato und hält ihm vor, er sei Anarchist und pflege bei jeder sich bietenden Gelegenheit etwas in die Luft zu jagen. El Ñato hört das nicht gerne und protestiert: "'Wir jagen kein gar nix in Luft. Keiner hier weiß kein gar nix über keine Espreng-estoff! Stehlen bisschen vielleicht Dynamit aus Bergwerk, werfen Estange hier, Estange da, aber jetzt das ist alles anders". In diesem Zitat fällt sogleich auf, dass Pynchon bzw. sein Übersetzer durch die leicht entgleiste Syntax bzw. durch die Verwendung der Wörter "Espreng-estoff" und "Estange" zum Ausdruck bringen, dass wir es bei El Ñato nicht mit einem englischen (bzw. deutschen) Muttersprachler zu tun haben, sondern mit einem Herren spanischer Zunge. Offenkundig pflegen manche Spanischsprachige einem anlautenden Sp- oder St- ein E- voranzustellen, weil das für sie leichter auszusprechen ist: Estange, Estaub, Estartkapital, Estars and Estripes, Estiftzahn, Estiegengeländer und so fort. Dieser typisch spanischen Gepflogenheit steht zum Beispiel der Hang der Chinesen gegenüber, ein "r" durch ein "l" zu ersetzen, weshalb diese auch nicht "Espreng-estoff" sagen würden, sondern vielmehr "Splengstoff". Möglicherweise fallen den p.t. Lesern ja noch andere Beispiele für fremde Akzente und fremde Artikulationseigenheiten ein, über die sie die Allgemeinheit in Kenntnis setzen wollen. Von Christoph Winder Winders Wörterbuch zur Gegenwart ist ein Work in Progress. Zweckdienliche Hinweise auf bemerkens- und erörternswerte Wörter sind erbeten an christoph.winder at derStandard.at DER STANDARD, 29. Juli 2008 http://derstandard.at/?url=/?id=1216918043810 From paulmackin at verizon.net Wed Jul 30 09:02:49 2008 From: paulmackin at verizon.net (Paul Mackin) Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2008 10:02:49 -0400 Subject: It's hard to believe Thomas Pynchon wrote a sentence as bad as this one In-Reply-To: <95cde1ee0807291030l2f9c469fm7e14a54305d21dce@mail.gmail.com> References: <8362828.1217264852014.JavaMail.root@elwamui-royal.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <999307.77225.qm@web38407.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <79e49fac0807281654g5cf48212mabfc51e13df03190@mail.gmail.com> <39a39c310807282253s7097335o3e4e750dfd7e8056@mail.gmail.com> <95cde1ee0807291030l2f9c469fm7e14a54305d21dce@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <839D541762E1437F924CCAB8004CF041@winbox3> After she had given in to the notion of being > doubled up on, she > >found herself going out of the way looking for it, > usually one in her > >mouth, the other from behind, sometimes in her ass, so > she got quickly > >used to tasting her own fluids mixed with shit." Bad writing? Yes, too much high-falutin' authorial presence. 'given in to the notion" "found herself" "her own fluids" Needs to be rewritten from pov of an uneducated miner's daughter. "At first talkin' on both of 'em at once was too much, but truth be told two cocks in her instead of one was great, except half the time (those bastards) the guy she was blowin' tasted as much like shit as pussy." P. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From against.the.dave at gmail.com Wed Jul 30 10:14:26 2008 From: against.the.dave at gmail.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2008 10:14:26 -0500 Subject: 100 Best First Lines from Novels Message-ID: http://americanbookreview.org/100BestLines.asp From against.the.dave at gmail.com Wed Jul 30 10:34:58 2008 From: against.the.dave at gmail.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2008 10:34:58 -0500 Subject: Great Opening Sentences From Science Fiction Message-ID: http://io9.com/5027128/great-opening-sentences-from-science-fiction From against.the.dave at gmail.com Wed Jul 30 10:38:47 2008 From: against.the.dave at gmail.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2008 10:38:47 -0500 Subject: In the beginning ... Message-ID: Vonnegut leads with a lie, Pynchon with disorientation. And Nabokov slips from words to lust in an instant. Maybe what it takes to make a sentence great is a kind of spare universality.... http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/jacketcopy/2008/07/in-the-beginnin.html From robinlandseadel at comcast.net Wed Jul 30 12:01:24 2008 From: robinlandseadel at comcast.net (robinlandseadel at comcast.net) Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2008 17:01:24 +0000 Subject: 100 Best First Lines from Novels Message-ID: <073020081701.11506.48909E64000E0DE300002CF22216548686040A0B0E0A9C0B020E0402070D019D@comcast.net> 101: Louie pulled off his bra and threw it down upon the casket. Nick Tosches, "In the Hand of Dante" 2002 102: "Now single up all lines!" Thomas Pynchon, "Against the Day" 2006 103: He speaks in your voice, American, and there's a shine in his eye that's halfway hopeful. Don Delillo; Underworld 1997 104: A green hunting cap squeezed the top of the fleshy balloon of a head. John Kennedy Toole: "A Confedracy of Dunces" 105: On Tuesday, October 11,1988, the Jason Taverner Show ran thirty seconds late. Philip K. Dick: "Flow My Tears The Policeman Said" 1974 http://americanbookreview.org/100BestLines.asp From mryc2903 at yahoo.fr Wed Jul 30 13:51:36 2008 From: mryc2903 at yahoo.fr (Michel Ryckx) Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2008 20:51:36 +0200 Subject: 100 Best First Lines from Novels In-Reply-To: <073020081701.11506.48909E64000E0DE300002CF22216548686040A0B0E0A9C0B020E0402070D019D@comcast.net> References: <073020081701.11506.48909E64000E0DE300002CF22216548686040A0B0E0A9C0B020E0402070D019D@comcast.net> Message-ID: <4890B838.9070906@yahoo.fr> 106: That Quarrel, Goddess; tell me about it: the one between Achilles (he was Peleus' son), his damning Wrath, taking the Greeks into an endless Misery, sending off to the Underworld many heroes' mighty souls making their bodies victim to vultures and dogs fulfilling thus Zeus' initial plan, [the quarrel], from its very beginning, which broke Unity, and caused dissension betwixt't the Leader of Armies, the Atreid, and Achilles (who shone magnificently). Iliad, Homer, way B.C. robinlandseadel at comcast.net schreef: > 101: Louie pulled off his bra and threw it down upon the casket. > Nick Tosches, "In the Hand of Dante" 2002 > > 102: "Now single up all lines!" > Thomas Pynchon, "Against the Day" 2006 > > 103: He speaks in your voice, American, and there'sbreaking U a > shine in his eye that's halfway hopeful. > Don Delillo; Underworld 1997 > > 104: A green hunting cap squeezed the top of the fleshy > balloon of a head. > John Kennedy Toole: "A Confedracy of Dunces" > > 105: On Tuesday, October 11,1988, the Jason > Taverner Show ran thirty seconds late. > Philip K. Dick: "Flow My Tears The Policeman Said" 1974 > > > > http://americanbookreview.org/100BestLines.asp > > > > ___________________________________________________________________________ Yahoo! Mail réinvente le mail ! Découvrez le nouveau Yahoo! Mail et son interface révolutionnaire. http://fr.mail.yahoo.com From against.the.dave at gmail.com Wed Jul 30 14:14:18 2008 From: against.the.dave at gmail.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2008 14:14:18 -0500 Subject: 100 Best First Lines from Novels In-Reply-To: <4890B838.9070906@yahoo.fr> References: <073020081701.11506.48909E64000E0DE300002CF22216548686040A0B0E0A9C0B020E0402070D019D@comcast.net> <4890B838.9070906@yahoo.fr> Message-ID: On Wed, Jul 30, 2008 at 1:51 PM, Michel Ryckx wrote: > 106: That Quarrel, Goddess; > tell me about it: the one between Achilles (he was Peleus' son), > his damning Wrath, > taking the Greeks into an endless Misery, > sending off to the Underworld many heroes' mighty souls > making their bodies victim to vultures and dogs > fulfilling thus Zeus' initial plan, > [the quarrel], from its very beginning, > which broke Unity, and caused dissension > betwixt't the Leader of Armies, the Atreid, > and Achilles (who shone magnificently). > > Iliad, Homer, way B.C. > > robinlandseadel at comcast.net schreef: >> >> 101: Louie pulled off his bra and threw it down upon the casket. >> Nick Tosches, "In the Hand of Dante" 2002 >> >> 102: "Now single up all lines!" >> Thomas Pynchon, "Against the Day" 2006 >> >> 103: He speaks in your voice, American, and there'sbreaking U a shine in >> his eye that's halfway hopeful. >> Don Delillo; Underworld 1997 >> >> 104: A green hunting cap squeezed the top of the fleshy balloon of a head. >> John Kennedy Toole: "A Confedracy of Dunces" >> >> 105: On Tuesday, October 11,1988, the Jason Taverner Show ran thirty >> seconds late. >> Philip K. Dick: "Flow My Tears The Policeman Said" 1974 >> >> http://americanbookreview.org/100BestLines.asp 107. "It was a bright cold day in April, and the clocks were striking thirteen." George Orwell, 1984 (1949) 108. ''Dog carcass in alley this morning, tire tread on burst stomach." Alan Moore and Dave Gibbons, Watchmen (1986) 109. "This is my favorite book in all the world, though I have never read it." William Goldman, The Princess Bride (1973) From scuffling at gmail.com Wed Jul 30 14:42:41 2008 From: scuffling at gmail.com (Ian (Hank Kimble) Scuffling) Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2008 15:42:41 -0400 Subject: what to read next that isn't pynchon In-Reply-To: <0A9745774F2BF6409F9544231DCC26610943FE56@vime1.rdg-home.ad.rdg.ac.uk> References: <380-2200872292105439@M2W025.mail2web.com> <0A9745774F2BF6409F9544231DCC26610943FE56@vime1.rdg-home.ad.rdg.ac.uk> Message-ID: The Odyssey and the Inferno! Never the Illiad or the all too familiar Purgatorio! I do the same thing, myself, by the way. It's like PBS used to do with broadcasting classic movies by the masters: 200 Blows, La Strada, Seventh Seal (and maybe Personna and Wild Straberries), a-and Seven Samurai (seven again!). These are all on my list of fave fifty films (http://www.urdomain.us/Henrys50.htm), but each one of the auteur directors of these films had a lot more that would have been more worthwhile viewing than repeats of the creme de al creme. HM On Wed, Jul 30, 2008 at 5:51 AM, Guy Ian Scott Pursey wrote: > > Hi Jill > > I'm reading 'The Odyssey' at the moment - before I started, I > procrastinated for a while, idly wondering which translation I should go > for. Ultimately, I went for the T.E. Lawrence (aka T.E. Shaw and > Lawrence of Arabia) translation as it's the one my Dad gave me when I > was a kid. I don't know how it stands compared with other translations - > I've heard he's a bit loose with the language and there are some > anachronisms... But I'm not familiar with the original text or its > language and I haven't read any other translation. I'm enjoying it so > far. > > It's in prose though I've heard (as I'm sure you have) that other > translations are in verse. > > I found this page which might help a little: > http://www.editoreric.com/greatlit/translations/Odyssey.html > > I've read elsewhere that the Lattimore translation is the "best". > > More recently, my Dad gave me a copy of 'Seven Pillars of Wisdom' (also > by Lawrence), which along with 'Against The Day' and 'Ulysses' I wanted > to get through before the end of year. (Ha!) > > Guy > > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-pynchon-l at waste.org [mailto:owner-pynchon-l at waste.org] On > Behalf Of grladams at teleport.com > Sent: 29 July 2008 22:01 > To: robinlandseadel at comcast.net; p-list > Subject: RE: what to read next that isn't pynchon > > Thomas Mann's "Magic Mountain" is in a new English translation, (not > new-new but still new) that's supposed to be much better to read. I'd be > up > for that. I've always wanted to read the Odyssey but wondered if anyone > on > this list had a favorite English edition? > > The Odyssey / Homer ; translated by Edward McCrorie, with an > introduction > and notes by Richard P. Martin; Johns Hopkins 2004 > Odyssey / Homer ; translated by Lombardo, Stanley, 1943- ; introduction > by > Sheila Murnaghan. > The Odyssey / Homer ; translated by Robert Fitzgerald 1910-; > introduction > by D.S. Carne-Ross. > The Odyssey / Homer ; translated by Robert Fagles ; introduction and > notes > by Bernard Knox. Note: "This [pbk.] edition contains minor revisions of > the > text"--P. 496. > The odyssey / translated by Hammond, Martin, 1944- ; with an > introduction > by Jasper Griffin. > The odyssey of Homer / translated by George Herbert Palmer 1842-1933.. > and many others I'm sure > Jill From kelber at mindspring.com Wed Jul 30 15:23:56 2008 From: kelber at mindspring.com (kelber at mindspring.com) Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2008 16:23:56 -0400 (EDT) Subject: AtD (37) p.1057 Discussion alert! Major meaning section, ?? thinks Host Message-ID: <27369929.1217449436324.JavaMail.root@elwamui-royal.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Self-clarity, not buying in to the beliefs of the powers-that-be, the Elect, whether they're religious, political, industrial, and/or military, lead Lew to that zen-like state of grace where things are exactly what they are. The grace that the Chums fly to at the end, from this viewpoint, isn't a Biblical form of grace, but instead, the grace of self-knowledge and clarity (the clarity that we as readers in the present might have in looking back at the early 20th century?), simultaneously their own journey and their own destination. Clarity and self-knowledge (grace) not being "good" in the Biblical, moral sense, but "good" in the sense that it implies intelligence? Laura -----Original Message----- >From: Mark Kohut >Sent: Jul 29, 2008 4:50 PM >To: pynchon -l >Subject: AtD (37) p.1057 Discussion alert! Major meaning section, ?? thinks Host > >Lew Basnight, detective, a book-length thread of meanings in AtD has a revelation........ > >What does it mean? > >Who are all these people Lew is interacting with at Carefree Court(!); a crowd even he, old L.A. hand, finds hard to "read"? Just a Hollywood crowd? or as broad a crossection of humanity as America was becoming--lotsa immmigrants in Hollywood---working daily in the 'new America' of 'mediated reality', not hard labor? > >The flush, energetic, wide-open [much anti-Puritanism, say some historians, flapper and booze 1920s? Can we see the whole crooked timber of humanity'--Kant--at this gathering? ; "the whole stock and joint company" --[Ishmael in Moby Dick]--living working in the daylit fiction that is America? > >Lew "seeing the great point and in the 'same instant' "recognizing the ongoing crime that had been his own life"....."Self-clarity" .........."a mortal sin"........???? > >WTF? > >Okay, pretty important revelation to understand Lew and more of AtD, yes? Why is such self-clarity a mortal sin? [Am I reading that right?]...."mortal sin" is a concept from the Western Christian tradition mostly. Shows Lew's religion in his upbringing [he is Presbyterian]. A mortal sin is one that totally cuts one off from God, goes the tradition. How could this 'self-clarity' totally cut him off from his God?....A revelation that his whole life had been 'an ongoing crime"...not acts he committed but his whole life. ?? > >Trying to catch this ragtag assembly of humanity is the ongoing crime? This some W.A.S.T.E.-like motley group of human beings, 'displaying scars and tattoos, etc." all 'having survived some calamity" ?? > >Or is Lew 'unreliable' in his reflections here? > >So, once Lew recognized that it was a 'crime' to chase the preterites, as it were, then he is no longer on the side of the Elect? No longer a believer in the Church's/Society's way of judging, so his 'mortal sin' is to not believe.? >(THAT cuts one off from one's Christian God while one is in that state, fer sure)..... > > It is this that got him unambiguously dynamited into his new life. ??? Comments sought, please. > >I have other thoughts which I will spare for now in order to open the discussion against my words above.... > > > > From kelber at mindspring.com Wed Jul 30 15:29:07 2008 From: kelber at mindspring.com (kelber at mindspring.com) Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2008 16:29:07 -0400 (EDT) Subject: 100 Best First Lines from Novels Message-ID: <19922843.1217449748386.JavaMail.root@elwamui-royal.atl.sa.earthlink.net> To be honest, I found this first sentence so unpleasant that it put me off (rightly or wrongly) from reading the book. Maybe a book shouldn't be judged by its cover, but the first sentence seems fair game -- the author's got complete control. Laura -----Original Message----- >From: robinlandseadel at comcast.net > >104: A green hunting cap squeezed the top of the fleshy >balloon of a head. >John Kennedy Toole: "A Confedracy of Dunces" > > > >http://americanbookreview.org/100BestLines.asp > From robinlandseadel at comcast.net Wed Jul 30 15:48:56 2008 From: robinlandseadel at comcast.net (robinlandseadel at comcast.net) Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2008 20:48:56 +0000 Subject: 100 Best First Lines from Novels Message-ID: <073020082048.10906.4890D3B80009B84100002A9A2215593414040A0B0E0A9C0B020E0402070D019D@comcast.net> Fair enough Laura. I'll confess that my eeeeesthetique leans more towards Bob Clampett & Chuck Jones, Tex Avery�one of those things that I just loooooooove in Pynchon, Vineland in particular, are the cartoons. They may be cardboard-cutout cartoons of characters, but they're every bit as good as anything on the Simpsons. The first image of Ignatius J. Reilly is a malevolent comic masterstroke, much like Bob Clampett's and Chuck Jones' early rendition of Elmer Fudd, with rolls of fat joining neck and skull, clearly a tragicomic clown, with an infants soft skull, an obvious case of craniotabes. Genius, really. -------------- Original message ---------------------- From: kelber at mindspring.com > To be honest, I found this first sentence so unpleasant that it put me off > (rightly or wrongly) from reading the book. Maybe a book shouldn't be judged by > its cover, but the first sentence seems fair game -- the author's got complete > control. > > Laura > > -----Original Message----- > >From: robinlandseadel at comcast.net > > > > >104: A green hunting cap squeezed the top of the fleshy > >balloon of a head. > >John Kennedy Toole: "A Confedracy of Dunces" > > > > > > > >http://americanbookreview.org/100BestLines.asp > > > From kelber at mindspring.com Wed Jul 30 16:00:45 2008 From: kelber at mindspring.com (kelber at mindspring.com) Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2008 17:00:45 -0400 (EDT) Subject: 100 Best First Lines from Novels Message-ID: <7546717.1217451646176.JavaMail.root@elwamui-royal.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Not a Fudd-fan either. No wonder that first line turned me off! Laura -----Original Message----- >From: robinlandseadel at comcast.net >Sent: Jul 30, 2008 4:48 PM >To: P-list >Subject: Re: 100 Best First Lines from Novels > >Fair enough Laura. > >I'll confess that my eeeeesthetique leans more towards Bob Clampett >& Chuck Jones, Tex Avery—one of those things that I just >loooooooove in Pynchon, Vineland in particular, are the cartoons. >They may be cardboard-cutout cartoons of characters, but they're >every bit as good as anything on the Simpsons. The first image of >Ignatius J. Reilly is a malevolent comic masterstroke, much like >Bob Clampett's and Chuck Jones' early rendition of Elmer Fudd, >with rolls of fat joining neck and skull, clearly a tragicomic clown, >with an infants soft skull, an obvious case of craniotabes. > >Genius, really. > -------------- Original message ---------------------- >From: kelber at mindspring.com >> To be honest, I found this first sentence so unpleasant that it put me off >> (rightly or wrongly) from reading the book. Maybe a book shouldn't be judged by >> its cover, but the first sentence seems fair game -- the author's got complete >> control. >> >> Laura >> >> -----Original Message----- >> >From: robinlandseadel at comcast.net >> >> > >> >104: A green hunting cap squeezed the top of the fleshy >> >balloon of a head. >> >John Kennedy Toole: "A Confedracy of Dunces" >> > >> > >> > >> >http://americanbookreview.org/100BestLines.asp >> > >> > From malignd at aol.com Wed Jul 30 18:18:18 2008 From: malignd at aol.com (malignd at aol.com) Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2008 19:18:18 -0400 Subject: 100 Best First Lines from Novels In-Reply-To: <19922843.1217449748386.JavaMail.root@elwamui-royal.atl.sa.earthlink.net> References: <19922843.1217449748386.JavaMail.root@elwamui-royal.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <8CAC0B1AFB7BDD3-7DC-1FAF@WEBMAIL-MA17.sysops.aol.com> It's a grossly overrated book. To be honest, I found this first sentence so unpleasant that it put me off (rightly or wrongly) from reading the book. Maybe a book shouldn't be judged by its cover, but the first sentence seems fair game -- the author's got complete control. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From malignd at aol.com Wed Jul 30 20:22:37 2008 From: malignd at aol.com (malignd at aol.com) Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2008 21:22:37 -0400 Subject: 100 Best First Lines from Novels Message-ID: <8CAC0C30D4B1259-C4C-1213@WEBMAIL-MA05.sysops.aol.com> Not a bad list, although pretty predictable.  Pleased to see Stanley Elkin on it.  The Old Man and the Sea opener is lovely enough, but the book's awful, which should have disqualified it.  And if you're going to pick from Joe Heller, the Catch-22 line is the obvious choice, but "I get the wilies [sp.] when I see closed doors" from Something Happened is better. Also, re Nabokov, "I was the shadow of the waxwing slain," isn't the first line of Pale Fire or even close; and "Happy families are all alike; every unhappy family is unhappy in its own way," is, I think (I don't have it here with me), also the first sentence of Ada (that clever VN). -----Original Message----- From: Dave Monroe To: pynchon -l Sent: Wed, 30 Jul 2008 11:14 am Subject: 100 Best First Lines from Novels http://americanbookreview.org/100BestLines.asp -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From malignd at aol.com Wed Jul 30 20:24:57 2008 From: malignd at aol.com (malignd at aol.com) Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2008 21:24:57 -0400 Subject: 100 Best First Lines from Novels In-Reply-To: References: <073020081701.11506.48909E64000E0DE300002CF22216548686040A0B0E0A9C0B020E0402070D019D@comcast.net> <4890B838.9070906@yahoo.fr> Message-ID: <8CAC0C3610E4D2B-C4C-1235@WEBMAIL-MA05.sysops.aol.com> Demoted from #8? <<107. "It was a bright cold day in April, and the clocks were striking thirteen." George Orwell, 1984 (1949)>> -----Original Message----- From: Dave Monroe To: Michel Ryckx Cc: pynchon-l at waste.org Sent: Wed, 30 Jul 2008 3:14 pm Subject: Re: 100 Best First Lines from Novels On Wed, Jul 30, 2008 at 1:51 PM, Michel Ryckx wrote: > 106: That Quarrel, Goddess; > tell me about it: the one between Achilles (he was Peleus' son), > his damning Wrath, > taking the Greeks into an endless Misery, > sending off to the Underworld many heroes' mighty souls > making their bodies victim to vultures and dogs > fulfilling thus Zeus' initial plan, > [the quarrel], from its very beginning, > which broke Unity, and caused dissension > betwixt't the Leader of Armies, the Atreid, > and Achilles (who shone magnificently). > > Iliad, Homer, way B.C. > > robinlandseadel at comcast.net schreef: >> >> 101: Louie pulled off his bra and threw it down upon the casket. >> Nick Tosches, "In the Hand of Dante" 2002 >> >> 102: "Now single up all lines!" >> Thomas Pynchon, "Against the Day" 2006 >> >> 103: He speaks in your voice, American, and there'sbreaking U a shine in >> his eye that's halfway hopeful. >> Don Delillo; Underworld 1997 >> >> 104: A green hunting cap squeezed the top of the fleshy balloon of a head. >> John Kennedy Toole: "A Confedracy of Dunces" >> >> 105: On Tuesday, October 11,1988, the Jason Taverner Show ran thirty >> seconds late. >> Philip K. Dick: "Flow My Tears The Policeman Said" 1974 >> >> http://americanbookreview.org/100BestLines.asp 107. "It was a bright cold day in April, and the clocks were striking thirteen." George Orwell, 1984 (1949) 108. ''Dog carcass in alley this morning, tire tread on burst stomach." Alan Moore and Dave Gibbons, Watchmen (1986) 109. "This is my favorite book in all the world, though I have never read it." William Goldman, The Princess Bride (1973) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From krafftjm at muohio.edu Wed Jul 30 22:42:29 2008 From: krafftjm at muohio.edu (Krafft, John M.) Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2008 23:42:29 -0400 Subject: Good first lines Message-ID: The latest list is semi-interesting, but it disappoints, as all such lists must, by what it omits. Every time this topic has come up here, I've been tempted to post one of my own favorites, so here goes: I have often thought that with any luck at all I could have been born a werewolf, because the two middle fingers on both my hands are the same length, but I have had to be content with what I had. I dislike washing myself, and dogs, and noise. --Shirley Jackson, _We Have Always Lived in the Castle_ (1962) OK, it isn't just one sentence (I couldn't resist going on a bit more), and it isn't actually quite first, but it's close enough (third, if you must know). John -- John M. Krafft / English Miami University–Hamilton / 1601 University Blvd. / Hamilton, OH 45011-3399 Tel: 513.785.3031 or 513.868.2330 Fax: 513.785.3145 E-mail: krafftjm at muohio.edu WWW: http://www.ham.muohio.edu/~krafftjm or http://PynchonNotes.org From michael.lee.bailey at gmail.com Wed Jul 30 23:22:49 2008 From: michael.lee.bailey at gmail.com (Michael Bailey) Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2008 00:22:49 -0400 Subject: 100 Best First Lines from Novels In-Reply-To: <073020082048.10906.4890D3B80009B84100002A9A2215593414040A0B0E0A9C0B020E0402070D019D@comcast.net> References: <073020082048.10906.4890D3B80009B84100002A9A2215593414040A0B0E0A9C0B020E0402070D019D@comcast.net> Message-ID: CoD actually turned out to be fairly fun, and had a happy ending. not to deal out spoilers, but Thank goodness for the nice Jewish girl he met! Just read the Yiddish Policeman's Union. That main character had about the same mix of attractive and unattractive traits as old Ignatius, I thought. And was as good a vehicle for spawning ruminations on the subculture - Jewish diaspora and New Orleans underclass respectively - and soaking up an imagined atmosphere. On 7/30/08, robinlandseadel at comcast.net wrote: > Fair enough Laura. > > I'll confess that my eeeeesthetique leans more towards Bob Clampett > & Chuck Jones, Tex Avery—one of those things that I just > loooooooove in Pynchon, Vineland in particular, are the cartoons. > They may be cardboard-cutout cartoons of characters, but they're > every bit as good as anything on the Simpsons. The first image of > Ignatius J. Reilly is a malevolent comic masterstroke, much like > Bob Clampett's and Chuck Jones' early rendition of Elmer Fudd, > with rolls of fat joining neck and skull, clearly a tragicomic clown, > with an infants soft skull, an obvious case of craniotabes. > > Genius, really. > > -------------- Original message ---------------------- > From: kelber at mindspring.com > > To be honest, I found this first sentence so unpleasant that it put me off > > (rightly or wrongly) from reading the book. Maybe a book shouldn't be judged by > > its cover, but the first sentence seems fair game -- the author's got complete > > control. > > > > Laura > > > > -----Original Message----- > > >From: robinlandseadel at comcast.net > > > > > > > >104: A green hunting cap squeezed the top of the fleshy > > >balloon of a head. > > >John Kennedy Toole: "A Confedracy of Dunces" > > > > > > > > > > > >http://americanbookreview.org/100BestLines.asp > > > > > > > From michael.lee.bailey at gmail.com Wed Jul 30 23:52:29 2008 From: michael.lee.bailey at gmail.com (Michael Bailey) Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2008 00:52:29 -0400 Subject: imhos (imhotep)(largely NP) Message-ID: Monte wrote > Which was also the line away from routine childhood death by dysentery etc, > slavery, > hereditary nobility, and so many other nostalgic features. Not to fault the > efficiency of the Modern Abbatoir, but somehow there are far more of us than > in those sweet gracious holistic harmonious pre-Enlightenment times. > that was - imho - one of yer best rebuttals yet...brief yet tasty... not that it closed the book on Robin's animadversions which are still interesting and pertinent -- imho those Madea movies are frickin' great...the way that people cut loose and wail... Maya Angelou reading in Madea's Family Reunion.. -- imho Henry Rollins spoken word is quite enjoyable; very nice indeed... just listened to Conversation Pit and have the urge to hear more From michael.lee.bailey at gmail.com Thu Jul 31 00:10:39 2008 From: michael.lee.bailey at gmail.com (Michael Bailey) Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2008 01:10:39 -0400 Subject: Pamuk Snow (NP) Message-ID: "...wishing his friends luck, told them that no matter what suffering lay ahead, he remained certain they would and could bring happiness to the people through the exercise of merciless violence" - Orhan Pamuk _Snow_ really nicely done book. -- this weekend: unpack my copy of AtD and respond to some of Mark's excellent questions... From michael.lee.bailey at gmail.com Thu Jul 31 00:49:06 2008 From: michael.lee.bailey at gmail.com (Michael Bailey) Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2008 01:49:06 -0400 Subject: AtD (37) pp.1040 ff. Thoughts on Lew Basnight, detective. In-Reply-To: References: <006e01c8eb36$ef780240$ce6806c0$@com> <754421.36065.qm@web38406.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Mark Kohut wrote: > > > TRPs sympathetic protagonists are NOT ego-driven, but receptive to things as they are? > eenhyeh...my ostinato is Merle is a keystone or axle of the book (for one thing, he's a tasty extrapolation of the protagonist in Stone Junction which drew the raviest of blurbs; and a single father like Zoyd...) training on Merle as a landmark while crossing the great water, Lew is not far off to one side, with a lanthorn, illuminating important themes: spiritually - guilt/grace, detection (application of rationality) and the limits of its usefulness, hiistorically - the evolution of the private dick from thug to thinker (Dashiell Hammett IRL experienced a similar rejection of union-busting to that of Lew) if guilt is imposed on Lew from outside in Chicago - Troth, the spouse and seemingly everybody he meets - then by the time he's working in LA, he's ready to himself feel his life as a long crime... it may not be the only meaning, but some shrift ought to be given to Original Sin (my other ostinato: Pynchon is a Christian novelist) From michael.lee.bailey at gmail.com Thu Jul 31 00:54:43 2008 From: michael.lee.bailey at gmail.com (Michael Bailey) Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2008 01:54:43 -0400 Subject: np political spam...non partisan voting integrity concern... Message-ID: Obama Doesn't Sweat. He should. by Greg Palast In swing-state Colorado, the Republican Secretary of State conducted the biggest purge of voters in history, dumping a fifth of all registrations. Guess their color. In swing-state Florida, the state is refusing to accept about 85,000 new registrations from voter drives - overwhelming Black voters. In swing state New Mexico, HALF of the Democrats of Mora, a dirt poor and overwhelmingly Hispanic county, found their registrations disappeared this year, courtesy of a Republican voting contractor. In swing states Ohio and Nevada, new federal law is knocking out tens of thousands of voters who lost their homes to foreclosure. My investigations partner spoke directly to Barack Obama about it. (When your partner is Robert F. Kennedy Jr., candidates take your phone call.) The cool, cool Senator Obama told Kennedy he was "concerned" about the integrity of the vote in the Southwest in particular. He's concerned. I'm sweating. It's time SOMEBODY raised the alarm about these missing voters; not to save Obama's candidacy – journalists should stay the heck away from partisan endorsements - but raise the alarm to save our sick democracy. And that somebody is YOU. Joining with US, the Palast investigative team. Here's how: We have been offered an astonishing opportunity to place the Kennedy-Palast investigative findings on a national, prime-time, major-network television broadcast. Plus, separately, we have an extraordinary offer to create a series of reports for national network radio. But guess what? The networks will NOT PAY for our public service reports. We have to raise the start-up funds in the next two weeks to film it, record it and get it on the airwaves. WE need YOU to fund the reports, DISSEMINATE the findings as we post the print, audio and video on the web– and ACT on it. So, for only the second time this year, I am asking each one of you to make a tax deductible donation to the non-profit, non-partisan Palast Investigative Fund of $500, $150 or $100. Progressives have complained for years of no opportunity to get the hard, cold sweaty truth on the air. Well, put your money where your heart and soul is. Donate at least $500, I'll send you every book I've written and every film, signed. Send $150 and I'll send you as a gift, a copy of John Ennis' film Free For All, Armed Madhouse, The Election Files and a copy of Live from the Armed Madhouse all signed. Donate $100, and I'll send you 3 copies, one signed to you, of "The Elections Files," (Watch the trailer here) the best of our BBC/Democracy Now films – including special never-broadcast interviews with Kennedy(Watch a clip) and fired prosecutor David Iglesias (Watch a clip). I know you're ponying up for your favorite candidates. But what's the point of winning folks' votes IF NO ONE COUNTS THEM? Please make your donation – today. No corporation, no big foundation, is going to take on this emergency in our democracy. The election's about to be stolen – for a third time. SO WHAT ARE YOU GOING TO DO ABOUT IT? Donate today (for $1,000 minimum, we'll list you as a Producer of our next DVD, in gratitude). Why? Because the only way to get the vote-chewing cockroaches out of the voting machinery is to turn on the lights – tell the truth on them. On prime time. After our team busted the story of Katherine Harris' attack on innocent Black voters as "felons," the NAACP sued and won back their rights. The truth CAN make the difference. Yes, we can. Indeed, we HAVE. Think all votes should be counted in America? Then YOU stand up and be counted. Don't expect networks or commercial sponsors to pay for your democracy. Feed the truth, donate $100 right now and pass on a copy of the Elections Files to your dippy cousin who thinks Kerry lost fair and square. Donations from our prior and only request already paid for some of our filming in the Southwest. Don't let this story be swept under the border. If you want more information, go to GregPalast.com, or write me directly at GregPalast.com – and hit the button, "contact Greg." From isread at btinternet.com Thu Jul 31 02:38:11 2008 From: isread at btinternet.com (Paul Nightingale) Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2008 08:38:11 +0100 Subject: Thomas Pynchon: Realism in an Age of Ontological Uncertainty? Message-ID: <000001c8f2e0$62c54270$284fc750$@com> http://www.blackwell-compass.com/subject/literature/article_view?article_id= lico_articles_bpl512 From isread at btinternet.com Thu Jul 31 05:40:03 2008 From: isread at btinternet.com (Paul Nightingale) Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2008 11:40:03 +0100 Subject: Thomas Pynchon: Realism in an Age of Ontological Uncertainty? Message-ID: <000101c8f2f9$cb9c3650$62d4a2f0$@com> http://www.blackwell-compass.com/subject/literature/section_home?section=lic o-american This one should work better: scroll down to the link to Watson's paper. From isread at btinternet.com Thu Jul 31 05:50:30 2008 From: isread at btinternet.com (Paul Nightingale) Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2008 11:50:30 +0100 Subject: Thomas Pynchon: Realism in an Age of Ontological Uncertainty? Message-ID: <000201c8f2fb$40760a90$c1621fb0$@com> http://www.blackwell-compass.com/subject/literature/ Ok, third time of asking. Hopefully this link won't break! Click on American section and scroll down to Watson's paper. From robinlandseadel at comcast.net Thu Jul 31 06:42:58 2008 From: robinlandseadel at comcast.net (robinlandseadel at comcast.net) Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2008 11:42:58 +0000 Subject: Thomas Pynchon: Realism in an Age of Ontological Uncertainty? Message-ID: <073120081142.18322.4891A54200001889000047922215567074040A0B0E0A9C0B020E0402070D019D@comcast.net> Better still: http://tinyurl.com/6y29nh -------------- Original message ---------------------- From: "Paul Nightingale" > http://www.blackwell-compass.com/subject/literature/article_view?article_id=lico_articles_bpl512 From robinlandseadel at comcast.net Thu Jul 31 06:48:50 2008 From: robinlandseadel at comcast.net (robinlandseadel at comcast.net) Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2008 11:48:50 +0000 Subject: Good first lines Message-ID: <073120081148.28373.4891A6A20003460F00006ED52215567074040A0B0E0A9C0B020E0402070D019D@comcast.net> Similarly heterodox, the first two sentences from Nick Tosches' "Dino�Living High in the Dirty Business of Dreams": It was like the guys from the other side used to say: La vecchiaia � carogna. They were right: Old age is carrion. -------------- Original message ---------------------- From: "Krafft, John M." The latest list is semi-interesting, but it disappoints. . . . From robinlandseadel at comcast.net Thu Jul 31 07:47:45 2008 From: robinlandseadel at comcast.net (robinlandseadel at comcast.net) Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2008 12:47:45 +0000 Subject: Thomas Pynchon: Realism in an Age of Ontological Uncertainty? Message-ID: <073120081247.26650.4891B471000617280000681A2216557996040A0B0E0A9C0B020E0402070D019D@comcast.net> Furthermore. . .. http://tinyurl.com/5m7fct -------------- Original message ---------------------- From: robinlandseadel at comcast.net > Better still: > > http://tinyurl.com/6y29nh > -------------- Original message ---------------------- > From: "Paul Nightingale" > > > http://www.blackwell-compass.com/subject/literature/article_view?article_id=lico _articles_bpl512 From ottosell at googlemail.com Thu Jul 31 08:08:31 2008 From: ottosell at googlemail.com (Otto) Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2008 15:08:31 +0200 Subject: NP Night Watch (2004 film) Message-ID: Night Watch (2004 film) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Night_Watch_(2004_film) http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/W%C3%A4chter_der_Nacht_%E2%80%93_Nochnoi_Dozor I've seen the movie recently and I think it's quite well done. From against.the.dave at gmail.com Thu Jul 31 08:18:10 2008 From: against.the.dave at gmail.com (Dave Monroe) Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2008 08:18:10 -0500 Subject: James Wood Ain't Afraid of Lit's Favorite Sons Message-ID: James Wood Ain't Afraid of Lit's Favorite Sons Updike might not enjoy this By Giles Harvey Tuesday, July 29th 2008 [...] Literary criticism is perhaps an inherently pugnacious discipline, and it's certainly a dialectical one. Nietzsche said that "Every talent must unfold itself in fighting," and Wood is a case in point. Like a rude but virtuous provincial indifferent to the capital's elaborate codes of etiquette, Wood, an English expat, has attacked many of the dignitaries of contemporary American fiction in a way that has often scandalized the right-thinking classes. He deplores Updike for "That quality of fattened paganism [. . .] which finds the same degree of sensuality in everything, whether it is a woman's breast or an avocado." DeLillo is castigated for his "anxiety about having anyone of substance in [Underworld] unconnected to his central theme," an anxiety that "is not only irritatingly airless but itself begins to seem a little paranoid, as if he can employ only characters who are loyal to him and his agenda." Similarly inadequate are the "rapid, farce-like, overlit simplicities" of Pynchon, in whose novels "everyone is ultimately protected from real menace because no one really exists." ... [...] http://www.villagevoice.com/2008-07-29/books/james-wood-ain-t-afraid-of-lit-s-favorite-sons/ From glenn_scheper at earthlink.net Thu Jul 31 08:58:29 2008 From: glenn_scheper at earthlink.net (Glenn Scheper) Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2008 06:58:29 -0700 (GMT-07:00) Subject: Best first line. Thinking outside the box (of novels) Message-ID: <12428351.1217512709855.JavaMail.root@mswamui-backed.atl.sa.earthlink.net> In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. Yours truly, Glenn Scheper http://home.earthlink.net/~glenn_scheper/ glenn_scheper + at + earthlink.net Copyleft(!) Forward freely. From scuffling at gmail.com Thu Jul 31 09:37:11 2008 From: scuffling at gmail.com (Ian (Hank Kimble) Scuffling) Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2008 10:37:11 -0400 Subject: World's Oldest Joke Message-ID: John McCain, Papa Bush, and Methusalah walk into a bar... But seriously: http://www.reuters.com/article/oddlyEnoughNews/idUSKUA14785120080731?fee dType=RSS&feedName=oddlyEnoughNews http://uktv.co.uk/uktv/item/aid/604709 -- AsB4, Henry From joeallonby at gmail.com Thu Jul 31 09:46:09 2008 From: joeallonby at gmail.com (Joe Allonby) Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2008 09:46:09 -0500 Subject: Great Opening Sentences From Science Fiction In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Listen! Billy Pilgrim has become unstuck in time. On Wed, Jul 30, 2008 at 10:34 AM, Dave Monroe wrote: > http://io9.com/5027128/great-opening-sentences-from-science-fiction > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ottosell at googlemail.com Thu Jul 31 10:01:19 2008 From: ottosell at googlemail.com (Otto) Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2008 17:01:19 +0200 Subject: Good first lines In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: 2008/7/31 Krafft, John M. : > The latest list is semi-interesting, but it disappoints, as all such lists must, by what it omits. Every time this topic has come up here, I've been tempted to post one of my own favorites, so here goes: > > I have often thought that with any luck at all I could have been born a werewolf, because the two middle fingers on both my hands are the same length, but I have had to be content with what I had. I dislike washing myself, and dogs, and noise. --Shirley Jackson, _We Have Always Lived in the Castle_ (1962) > > OK, it isn't just one sentence (I couldn't resist going on a bit more), and it isn't actually quite first, but it's close enough (third, if you must know). > > John > Ok, if more than one sentence is allowed John Barth's beginning of his "Perseid" is still one of my all-time favourites: -------- Good evening. Stories last longer than men, stones than stories, stars than stones. Bur even our stars' nights are numbered, and with them will pass this patterned tale to a long-deceased earth. Nightly, when I wake to think myself beworlded and find myself in heaven, I review the night I woke to think and find myself vice-versa. ("Chimera", 1972, p. 67) --------- Once upon a time I tried to translate this story into German, but I never managed to get across that second sentence. Otto From markekohut at yahoo.com Thu Jul 31 10:18:18 2008 From: markekohut at yahoo.com (Mark Kohut) Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2008 08:18:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: first lines if stories can count Message-ID: <634412.18403.qm@web38403.mail.mud.yahoo.com> "None of them knew the color of the sky".--The Open Boat, Stephen Crane From paulmackin at verizon.net Thu Jul 31 09:02:12 2008 From: paulmackin at verizon.net (Paul Mackin) Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2008 10:02:12 -0400 Subject: James Wood Ain't Afraid of Lit's Favorite Sons In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sunday you could read the first chapter of his new book "How Fiction Works" free on the NY Times site. (not sure it's still there) Very interesting. In the article Paul N. pointed out, "James Wood" gets referred to as "James Woods" (like the actor) P ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave Monroe" To: "pynchon -l" Sent: Thursday, July 31, 2008 9:18 AM Subject: James Wood Ain't Afraid of Lit's Favorite Sons > James Wood Ain't Afraid of Lit's Favorite Sons > Updike might not enjoy this > By Giles Harvey > Tuesday, July 29th 2008 > > [...] > > Literary criticism is perhaps an inherently pugnacious discipline, and > it's certainly a dialectical one. Nietzsche said that "Every talent > must unfold itself in fighting," and Wood is a case in point. Like a > rude but virtuous provincial indifferent to the capital's elaborate > codes of etiquette, Wood, an English expat, has attacked many of the > dignitaries of contemporary American fiction in a way that has often > scandalized the right-thinking classes. He deplores Updike for "That > quality of fattened paganism [. . .] which finds the same degree of > sensuality in everything, whether it is a woman's breast or an > avocado." DeLillo is castigated for his "anxiety about having anyone > of substance in [Underworld] unconnected to his central theme," an > anxiety that "is not only irritatingly airless but itself begins to > seem a little paranoid, as if he can employ only characters who are > loyal to him and his agenda." Similarly inadequate are the "rapid, > farce-like, overlit simplicities" of Pynchon, in whose novels > "everyone is ultimately protected from real menace because no one > really exists." ... > > [...] > > http://www.villagevoice.com/2008-07-29/books/james-wood-ain-t-afraid-of-lit-s-favorite-sons/ > From scuffling at gmail.com Thu Jul 31 10:37:57 2008 From: scuffling at gmail.com (Ian (Hank Kimble) Scuffling) Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2008 11:37:57 -0400 Subject: Best first line. Thinking outside the box (of novels) In-Reply-To: <12428351.1217512709855.JavaMail.root@mswamui-backed.atl.sa.earthlink.net> References: <12428351.1217512709855.JavaMail.root@mswamui-backed.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: Oy! Someone had to say it; better you than me, Glenn. Henry Mu On Thu, Jul 31, 2008 at 9:58 AM, Glenn Scheper: > In the beginning was the Word, > and the Word was with God, > and the Word was God. > > > Yours truly, > Glenn Scheper > http://home.earthlink.net/~glenn_scheper/ > glenn_scheper + at + earthlink.net > Copyleft(!) Forward freely. > > -- AsB4, Henry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From igrlivingston at gmail.com Thu Jul 31 10:40:56 2008 From: igrlivingston at gmail.com (Ian Livingston) Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2008 08:40:56 -0700 Subject: James Wood Ain't Afraid of Lit's Favorite Sons In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <95cde1ee0807310840k402147a5u1711dd1b9a4359f5@mail.gmail.com> Fools are fearless. It takes courage to enter terrain you perceive is dangerous to your self-certainty. I happen to agree on Updike, but that's a pretty casual dismissal of both authors. If Wood has something genuine to contribute, I might become interested. On Thu, Jul 31, 2008 at 6:18 AM, Dave Monroe wrote: > James Wood Ain't Afraid of Lit's Favorite Sons > Updike might not enjoy this > By Giles Harvey > Tuesday, July 29th 2008 > > [...] > > Literary criticism is perhaps an inherently pugnacious discipline, and > it's certainly a dialectical one. Nietzsche said that "Every talent > must unfold itself in fighting," and Wood is a case in point. Like a > rude but virtuous provincial indifferent to the capital's elaborate > codes of etiquette, Wood, an English expat, has attacked many of the > dignitaries of contemporary American fiction in a way that has often > scandalized the right-thinking classes. He deplores Updike for "That > quality of fattened paganism [. . .] which finds the same degree of > sensuality in everything, whether it is a woman's breast or an > avocado." DeLillo is castigated for his "anxiety about having anyone > of substance in [Underworld] unconnected to his central theme," an > anxiety that "is not only irritatingly airless but itself begins to > seem a little paranoid, as if he can employ only characters who are > loyal to him and his agenda." Similarly inadequate are the "rapid, > farce-like, overlit simplicities" of Pynchon, in whose novels > "everyone is ultimately protected from real menace because no one > really exists." ... > > [...] > > > http://www.villagevoice.com/2008-07-29/books/james-wood-ain-t-afraid-of-lit-s-favorite-sons/ > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ruudsaurins at aol.com Thu Jul 31 10:43:16 2008 From: ruudsaurins at aol.com (ruudsaurins at aol.com) Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2008 11:43:16 -0400 Subject: Best Opening Line (cont'd) Message-ID: <8CAC13B4875C635-51C-1798@webmail-de18.sysops.aol.com> Hoy! Hoy! ????? In the beginning was the word ????? and the word?was "mayo". ????? Spread the word! ??????????????????? ...as creaming comes across this guy..... ?????????????????????????????????? truly, ?????????????????????????????????? ruud -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From isread at btinternet.com Thu Jul 31 11:11:12 2008 From: isread at btinternet.com (Paul Nightingale) Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2008 17:11:12 +0100 Subject: Atdtda28: All the same I'd be looking into, 794-796 Message-ID: <002a01c8f328$13f95d50$3bec17f0$@com> At the beginning of the section: "Seen from the ground ..." etc. Cf. the Chums' "protection lost" (793). Also cf. Miles' concluding line on 796. And then, from the long-shot to a close-up: the "sky rendezvous" (794) and changes in the Chums' relations with the Bol'shaia Igra, or at least Padzhitnoff. Given the partial/parochial readings offered earlier, the "sky-rendezvous" is characterised, initially, by some attempt at a common cause, ie Padzhitnoff's distinction between his official/unofficial roles and the "shared look of not so much disdain as sympathetic resignation to the ways of the surface-world". One might infer that this opening exchange features the two leaders, Padzhitnoff--identified at the outset--and Randolph; the "shared look" indicates a possible intimacy here. However, the dialogue passage that ensues doesn't attribute speech to any of the Chums in particular until the top of 795, when Randolph is identified as a speaker, followed in turn by Lindsay, Chick and Miles, but not Darby: the opening paragraph ("The boys wore matching sable hats and wolfskin cloaks ..." etc, 794) indicates that all are present. By way of contrast, as the scene opens out ("the Russian wireless receiver now came to life", 795) there is no indication that other Russians are present. Anyone other than Padzhitnoff remains silent, unacknowledged: the Chums collectively interact with Padzhitnoff alone. However, if the Chums insist they are now independent (of the government and corporations, if not of the banks), Padzhitnoff is still tied to the official line, a purveyor of what "they want to believe" (794). Post-Event, then: "Returning from the taiga, the crew of Inconvenience found the Earth they thought they knew changed now in unpredictable ways ..." etc (795). Yet, if this is some kind of modernist version of progress, the environment transformed ("steel within cleared rights-of-way below shining as river-courses once had"; then, the section ending on 796 with "quotidian light" superseded by "an earthbound constellation of red and green running-lights" and the irony of Miles' concluding comment), there is an echo of their descent to Chicago on 10: "As they came in low over the Stockyards, the smell found them ..." etc, "tall smokestacks unceasingly vomiting black grease smoke". Here: "Industrial smoke ... climbed the sky ..." etc (795, with or without correct punctuation). From "[h]uge modern cities" to the paragraph ending "without a living creature in sight" (795-796); and then, finally, as indicated, nothing but the "earthbound constellation of red and green running-lights" (796). If the post-Event Siberian landscape recalls Chicago, the Event's impact echoing that of capitalist rationalisation, so does the paragraph beginning on 796. On 14, the gathering of airships: "... the Midwestern summer evening whose fading light they were most of them too busy quite to catch the melancholy of", down to "... the evening was thus atwitter, like the trees of many a street in the city nearby, with aviatory pleasantries". Here, the absence of "migratory European species" (795), a disruption of the natural cycle. Then, Ch5 begins by pointing out that the Chicago setting offers the Inconvenience a perfect disguise: it "would fit right in" etc (36). Here, the Chums' cry of independence is perhaps undermined, "approach[ing] the fringes of a great aerial flotilla" (796), again unpopulated, "immense and crewless". Business as usual, it seems. From markekohut at yahoo.com Thu Jul 31 12:01:03 2008 From: markekohut at yahoo.com (Mark Kohut) Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2008 10:01:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: AtD (28) All the same I'd be looking into, p.794-796 Message-ID: <211373.9252.qm@web38406.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Paul Nightingale wrote: If the post-Event Siberian landscape recalls Chicago, the Event's impact echoing that of capitalist rationalisation, so does the paragraph beginning on 796. On 14, the gathering of airships: "... the Midwestern summer evening whose fading light they were most of them too busy quite to catch the melancholy of", down to "... the evening was thus atwitter, like the trees of many a street in the city nearby, with aviatory pleasantries". Here, the absence of "migratory European species" (795), a disruption of the natural cycle. Then, Ch5 begins by pointing out that the Chicago setting offers the Inconvenience a perfect disguise: it "would fit right in" etc (36). Here, the Chums' cry of independence is perhaps undermined, "approach[ing] the fringes of a great aerial flotilla" (796), again unpopulated, "immense and crewless". Business as usual, it seems. The Chums' new Organization has them working and still missing the light of the day, the twitter of birds, etc.....effect of modernity? Weber's concept of modern industrial rationalization, besides the loss of magic and institutionalization of charisma, has lots of analysis of efficiency and certain positive results, I gather. (I hardly know----maybe one ofour p-listers who does can clarify. [Everything I know I learned from wikipedia, will be my late-life memoir]) Anyway, this episode lead my reflections in that direction. And toward more understanding of the ending, maybe? From typewrighter at gmail.com Thu Jul 31 12:26:53 2008 From: typewrighter at gmail.com (Joe Wright) Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2008 13:26:53 -0400 Subject: what to read next that isn't pynchon In-Reply-To: <380-2200872292105439@M2W025.mail2web.com> References: <380-2200872292105439@M2W025.mail2web.com> Message-ID: <41190f9d0807311026k65d5c584o751ffdcd6ee1dcfe@mail.gmail.com> I've been wanting to read Hugo's Toilers of the Sea after some glowing reviews from friends, just throwing it out there. -- Joe On Tue, Jul 29, 2008 at 5:00 PM, grladams at teleport.com < grladams at teleport.com> wrote: > Thomas Mann's "Magic Mountain" is in a new English translation, (not > new-new but still new) that's supposed to be much better to read. I'd be up > for that. I've always wanted to read the Odyssey but wondered if anyone on > this list had a favorite English edition? > > The Odyssey / Homer ; translated by Edward McCrorie, with an introduction > and notes by Richard P. Martin; Johns Hopkins 2004 > Odyssey / Homer ; translated by Lombardo, Stanley, 1943- ; introduction by > Sheila Murnaghan. > The Odyssey / Homer ; translated by Robert Fitzgerald 1910-; introduction > by D.S. Carne-Ross. > The Odyssey / Homer ; translated by Robert Fagles ; introduction and notes > by Bernard Knox. Note: "This [pbk.] edition contains minor revisions of the > text"--P. 496. > The odyssey / translated by Hammond, Martin, 1944- ; with an introduction > by Jasper Griffin. > The odyssey of Homer / translated by George Herbert Palmer 1842-1933.. > and many others I'm sure > Jill > > Original Message: > ----------------- > From: robinlandseadel at comcast.net > Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2008 11:45:12 +0000 > To: pynchon-l at waste.org (P-list) > Subject: RE: what to read next that isn't pynchon > > > "Henry" : > Big Book: Isn't there a comparatively recent translation of > War and Peace that's supposed to be top drawer? > Anyone read it yet? > > Anthony Briggs for Viking Press: > > http://www.amazon.com/War-Peace-Leo-Tolstoy/dp/067003469X > > I bought my copy two years back, but between Proust & Pynchon, > my eyeballs are in search of shorter, more digestable works. Not to > mention this mounting pile of metaphysical texts constantly demanding > my attention. Evola on Heremetics is proving to be quite the education: > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julius_Evola > > In addition to W & P, there are two early 20th century masterworks > that seem to apply—Hesse's "The Glass Bead Game" and Thomas > Mann's "Magic Mountain." > > But I suspect the "open sesame" will be: > > http://tinyurl.com/5vsju9 > > http://www.hermeticgoldendawn.org/Documents/Bios/regardie.htm > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > mail2web - Check your email from the web at > http://link.mail2web.com/mail2web > > > > -- "There is no salvation in becoming adapted to a world which is crazy." -- Henry Miller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From markekohut at yahoo.com Thu Jul 31 13:11:47 2008 From: markekohut at yahoo.com (Mark Kohut) Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2008 11:11:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Follow-up: AtD (37) p.1057 Discussion alert! Major meaning section, ?? thinks Host Message-ID: <648138.62403.qm@web38406.mail.mud.yahoo.com> As host this week, I get to synthesize--or choose buffet-style-- all the truths the responders found in this section. I think we had great words from all, any of which might offer more to riff on, insightfully, than mine below. Lew. Presbyterian, i.e. a Protestant, a Puritan descendant from the "Errand into the Wilderness". From the Western Christian tradition who felt guilty of something unnamed when we first met him. I'd vote for MB's Original Sin as a very possible TRP meaning here. Lew works for a detective agancy that is--or is like, can't quite remember---the Pinkerton one in history. Which worked for the Establishment to bust unions, attack strikers. Webb's fellow men. Lew is complicit. But Lew is not a bad guy, he solves real crimes, goes with the flow, is liked, maybe is a stand-in for the writer-figure in AtD. In Pynchon's worldview. Lew realizes that the motley crew at the party are like all the folk he has chased down over the years. Those who have been scarred and survived some kind of dynamiting in their lives. (Sorta) Preterites, I have argued, working in the day of the new America as we all have to as best as they can. Lew suddenly realizes his 'whole life' has been a crime. See Original Sin, see Lew's recognition of his complicity. His new 'self-clarity' is a mortal sin. Perhaps, as Ian reminds thru Jung, whom we know OBA has read, Lew realizes 'the nature of human nature", his human nature with this awareness of 'mortal sin'? Lew feels a Puritan-like Damnation, an inevitable 'Sinner in the Hands of an Angry God?". But he was dynamited out of such damnation? Laura: such self-knowledge led him to a zen-like awareness/acceptance of 'things as they are', called "grace" when it happened earlier. I second all LK's remarks around Pynchon's meaning of 'grace' in AtD vs. established religious/Biblical, etc. meanings. THOSE are the traditional Protestant/Puritan meanings that Lew was "dynamited' out of. We have to follow TRPs 'grace' within AtD to get grace anew, I say. (Another speculative aside: TRP might be suggesting that the Western Christian Puritanical tradition LEADS ultimately to dynamiting?. War thru terrorism? Or, maybe Webb's dynamiting ultimately leads to such......... "grace"????) More graceless notes of an overly analytical, self-clarity kind coming on "grace", but I want Robin to take us there, to the resonant end of AtD, before I riff more. Thanks All. I think we got somewhere in understanding, don't you? I have a few more posts for this section then "Rue De Depart". --- On Tue, 7/29/08, Mark Kohut wrote: > From: Mark Kohut > Subject: AtD (37) p.1057 Discussion alert! Major meaning section, ?? thinks Host > To: "pynchon -l" > Date: Tuesday, July 29, 2008, 4:50 PM > Lew Basnight, detective, a book-length thread of meanings in > AtD has a revelation........ > > What does it mean? > > Who are all these people Lew is interacting with at > Carefree Court(!); a crowd even he, old L.A. hand, finds > hard to "read"? Just a Hollywood crowd? or as > broad a crossection of humanity as America was > becoming--lotsa immmigrants in Hollywood---working daily in > the 'new America' of 'mediated reality', not > hard labor? > > The flush, energetic, wide-open [much anti-Puritanism, say > some historians, flapper and booze 1920s? Can we see the > whole crooked timber of humanity'--Kant--at this > gathering? ; "the whole stock and joint company" > --[Ishmael in Moby Dick]--living working in the daylit > fiction that is America? > > Lew "seeing the great point and in the 'same > instant' "recognizing the ongoing crime that had > been his own life"....."Self-clarity" > .........."a mortal sin"........???? > > WTF? > > Okay, pretty important revelation to understand Lew and > more of AtD, yes? Why is such self-clarity a mortal sin? [Am > I reading that right?]...."mortal sin" is a > concept from the Western Christian tradition mostly. Shows > Lew's religion in his upbringing [he is Presbyterian]. A > mortal sin is one that totally cuts one off from God, goes > the tradition. How could this 'self-clarity' totally > cut him off from his God?....A revelation that his whole > life had been 'an ongoing crime"...not acts he > committed but his whole life. ?? > > Trying to catch this ragtag assembly of humanity is the > ongoing crime? This some W.A.S.T.E.-like motley group of > human beings, 'displaying scars and tattoos, etc." > all 'having survived some calamity" ?? > > Or is Lew 'unreliable' in his reflections here? > > So, once Lew recognized that it was a 'crime' to > chase the preterites, as it were, then he is no longer on > the side of the Elect? No longer a believer in the > Church's/Society's way of judging, so his > 'mortal sin' is to not believe.? > (THAT cuts one off from one's Christian God while one > is in that state, fer sure)..... > > It is this that got him unambiguously dynamited into his > new life. ??? Comments sought, please. > > I have other thoughts which I will spare for now in order > to open the discussion against my words above.... From scuffling at gmail.com Thu Jul 31 13:15:54 2008 From: scuffling at gmail.com (Ian (Hank Kimble) Scuffling) Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2008 14:15:54 -0400 Subject: what to read next that isn't pynchon In-Reply-To: <41190f9d0807311026k65d5c584o751ffdcd6ee1dcfe@mail.gmail.com> References: <380-2200872292105439@M2W025.mail2web.com> <41190f9d0807311026k65d5c584o751ffdcd6ee1dcfe@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Kinda like Illiad vs. Oddysey, Inferno vs. Paradiso... New Testament, anyone? I've never read but a book or so of it. Is it really as bad as they say? Greek to me! Codex Sinaiticus, http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/europe/07/24/online.bible/ -- AsB4, Henry Mu http://my.barackobama.com/page/community/blog/henrymu From markekohut at yahoo.com Thu Jul 31 13:36:23 2008 From: markekohut at yahoo.com (Mark Kohut) Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2008 11:36:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Fw: Re: what to read next that isn't pynchon Message-ID: <667335.33958.qm@web38405.mail.mud.yahoo.com> > nah, Old Testament......the original Against the > Day............. > who among us has read it all?...most of it? > > > --- On Thu, 7/31/08, Ian (Hank Kimble) Scuffling > wrote: > > > From: Ian (Hank Kimble) Scuffling > > > Subject: Re: what to read next that isn't pynchon > > To: "Pynchon Liste" > > > Date: Thursday, July 31, 2008, 2:15 PM > > Kinda like Illiad vs. Oddysey, Inferno vs. Paradiso... > New > > Testament, > > anyone? I've never read but a book or so of it. > Is it > > really as bad > > as they say? Greek to me! > > > > Codex Sinaiticus, > > > http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/europe/07/24/online.bible/ > > > > -- > > AsB4, > > > > Henry Mu > > http://my.barackobama.com/page/community/blog/henrymu From krafftjm at muohio.edu Thu Jul 31 14:04:47 2008 From: krafftjm at muohio.edu (Krafft, John M.) Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2008 15:04:47 -0400 Subject: Good first lines In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: I promise I'll stop with this one, but taking my cue from otto, here's a terrific story opening. It's worth the price of admission just to get to the first comma, but here's the whole first paragraph: Back in the days when everyone was old and stupid or young and foolish and me and Sugar were the only ones just right, this lady moved on our block with nappy hair and proper speech and no makeup. And quite naturally we laughed at her, laughed the way we did at the junk man who went about his business like he was some big-time president and his sorry-ass horse his secretary. And we kinda hated her too, hated the way we did the winos who cluttered up our parks and pissed on our handball walls and stank up our hallways and stairs so you couldn't halfway play hide-and-seek without a goddamn gas mask. Miss Moore was her name. The only woman on the block with no first name. And she was black as hell, cept for her feet,--which were fish-white and spooky. And she was always planning these boring-ass things for us to do, us being my cousin, mostly, who lived on the block cause we all moved North the same time and to the same apartment then spread out gradual to breathe. And our parents would yank our heads into some kinda shape and crisp up our clothes so we'd be presentable for travel with Miss Moore, who always looked like she was going to church, though she never did. Which is just one of the things the grownups talked about when they talked behind her back like a dog. But when she came calling with some sachet she'd sewed up or some gingerbread she'd made or some book, why then they'd all be too embarrassed to turn her down and we'd get handed over all spruced up. She'd been to college and said it was only right that she should take responsibility for the young ones' education, and she not even related by marriage or blood. So they'd go for it. Specially Aunt Gretchen. She was the main gofer in the family. You got some ole dumb shit foolishness you want somebody to go for, you send for Aunt Gretchen. She been screwed into the go-along for so long, it's a blood-deep natural thing with her. Which is how she got saddled with me and Sugar and Junior in the first place while our mothers were in a la-de-da! apartme nt up the block having a good ole time. --Toni Cade Bambara, "The Lesson" (1972) -- John M. Krafft / English Miami University–Hamilton / 1601 University Blvd. / Hamilton, OH 45011-3399 Tel: 513.785.3031 or 513.868.2330 Fax: 513.785.3145 E-mail: krafftjm at muohio.edu WWW: http://www.ham.muohio.edu/~krafftjm or http://PynchonNotes.org From markekohut at yahoo.com Thu Jul 31 18:09:48 2008 From: markekohut at yahoo.com (Mark Kohut) Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2008 16:09:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: AtD (37) p.1059 "wide-awake hat", Virgil?, "it had not happened yet" Message-ID: <97639.69303.qm@web38403.mail.mud.yahoo.com> P 1058 "wide-brim black hat"...these 'wide-awake hats' always strike me as resting on the hats of the generally enlightened---or that guy in Big Lebowski....Virgil is linked with the ancient wise-man personage of the hermit Tarot card..... Virgil is Jardine's father. is the Aeneid relevant here? "It proclaimed the Imperial mission of the Roman Empire, while at the same time pitying Rome's victims and feeling their grief. Aeneas was considered to exemplify virtue and pietas (roughly translated as "piety", though the word is far more complex and has a sense of being duty-bound and respectful of divine will, family and homeland). Nevertheless, Aeneas struggles between doing what he wants as a man, and doing what he must as a virtuous hero. In the view of some modern critics, Aeneas' inner turmoil and shortcomings make him a more realistic character than the heroes of Homeric poetry, such as Odysseus. Later views of Virgil Even as the Roman empire collapsed, literate men acknowledged that the Christianized Virgil was a master poet. Gregory of Tours read Virgil, whom he quotes in several places, along with some other Latin poets, though he cautions that "we ought not to relate their lying fables, lest we fall under sentence of eternal death". The Aeneid remained the central Latin literary text of the Middle Ages and retained its status as the grand epic of the Latin peoples, and of those who considered themselves to be of Roman provenance, such as the English. It also held religious importance as it describes the founding of the Holy City. Virgil was made palatable for his Christian audience also through a belief in his prophecy of Christ in his Fourth Eclogue." More self-justifying anarchist bombing talk THEN it gets really weird. Lew sees Jardine Maraca "passing so smoothly among the guests"...BUT he realizes, "not only might Jardine be dead but also that it had not happened yet. " OK, WTF???/ Where are we in Time? What is this "alternate reality" yet to happen?....in which the smooth Jardine is ALREADY dead? Why is Lew so accepting of this...........surreal............situation? Because he "accepts things as they are"? p 256---what they saw "now" in the sights was in fact what did not yet exist but what would only be a few seconds from "now" .... What's this all about?.... From kelber at mindspring.com Thu Jul 31 18:36:32 2008 From: kelber at mindspring.com (kelber at mindspring.com) Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2008 19:36:32 -0400 (EDT) Subject: NP Night Watch (2004 film) Message-ID: <9395790.1217547393089.JavaMail.root@elwamui-wigeon.atl.sa.earthlink.net> I agree. Haven't seen the sequel, Day Watch. Laura -----Original Message----- >From: Otto >Sent: Jul 31, 2008 9:08 AM >To: Pynchon Liste >Subject: NP Night Watch (2004 film) > >Night Watch (2004 film) >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Night_Watch_(2004_film) > >http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/W%C3%A4chter_der_Nacht_%E2%80%93_Nochnoi_Dozor > >I've seen the movie recently and I think it's quite well done. From igrlivingston at gmail.com Thu Jul 31 20:39:08 2008 From: igrlivingston at gmail.com (Ian Livingston) Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2008 18:39:08 -0700 Subject: Fw: Re: what to read next that isn't pynchon In-Reply-To: <667335.33958.qm@web38405.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <667335.33958.qm@web38405.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <95cde1ee0807311839p483043b7w66473a6cd00ad043@mail.gmail.com> Well, actually, I'm a preacher's kid. I read it all. Don't quiz me, though. As I recollect it's a pretty story with some exciting hijinks from guys who talk funny and see things that aren't there. But if you want some edifying literature, I'd have to suggest the *Phaedrus*, by Plato. On Thu, Jul 31, 2008 at 11:36 AM, Mark Kohut wrote: > > > nah, Old Testament......the original Against the > > Day............. > > who among us has read it all?...most of it? > > > > > > --- On Thu, 7/31/08, Ian (Hank Kimble) Scuffling > > wrote: > > > > > From: Ian (Hank Kimble) Scuffling > > > > > Subject: Re: what to read next that isn't pynchon > > > To: "Pynchon Liste" > > > > > Date: Thursday, July 31, 2008, 2:15 PM > > > Kinda like Illiad vs. Oddysey, Inferno vs. Paradiso... > > New > > > Testament, > > > anyone? I've never read but a book or so of it. > > Is it > > > really as bad > > > as they say? Greek to me! > > > > > > Codex Sinaiticus, > > > > > http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/europe/07/24/online.bible/ > > > > > > -- > > > AsB4, > > > > > > Henry Mu > > > http://my.barackobama.com/page/community/blog/henrymu > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From david.casseres at gmail.com Thu Jul 31 21:58:20 2008 From: david.casseres at gmail.com (David Casseres) Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2008 19:58:20 -0700 Subject: what to read next that isn't pynchon In-Reply-To: <8CABFDC82C60345-CE0-87C@webmail-da08.sysops.aol.com> References: <39a39c310807282303j23e79eb6ka7282cf95893bccb@mail.gmail.com> <8CABFDC82C60345-CE0-87C@webmail-da08.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <57B955E6-E8B3-42FA-B6A1-3C5949FA566C@gmail.com> Or Jorge Amado, The Tent of Miracles. His masterpiece. On Jul 29, 2008, at 2:52 PM, MalignD at aol.com wrote: > Try Gaddis. A Frolic of His Own or JR. > > Or Terry Southern. Flash and Filigree, for instance. > > Or Tom McGuane, if you've never read him. > > Or Dog of the South by Charles Portis. > > Or about anything by Thomas Berger. Who Is Teddy Villanova? > > Or Jorge Amado, Home is the Sailor. > > Or the Beckett trilogy. Or Murphy. > > Or Flann O'Brien. > > I also just re-read Him With His Foot In His Mouth, a novella and > stories by Saul Bellow. It's pretty amazing. His paragraphs go > effortlessly from high to low, from slang to erudition, from wiseass > to high serious. Really great stuff. Or virtually any of his > novels. Try Humboldt's Gift. > > I could do this all day ... > > > -----Original Message----- > From: JD > To: pynchon -l > Sent: Tue, 29 Jul 2008 2:03 am > Subject: what to read next that isn't pynchon > > Please advise. Handbook of Drawing is still not in English. God > damnit. > > Darkmans wa s terrible. > > Terrible. > > I'm sorry. > > Vollmann sniffs his own ass so hard I can hear it from here. At > least he tries. Still smells like shit. > > Omega Minor was fun, and worthwhile. > > Summer in Termuren(sp?) was worthwhile. But old. > > I subscribe to One Store because I like their format. It's all > horrible. One of their contributors had a national endowment of the > arts grant and a gugenheim grant and reading her bullshit made me > want to stab myself in the eye. Good on her being able to game the > system, but dear lord. > > New authors, please. > The Famous, the Infamous, the Lame - in your browser. Get the TMZ > Toolbar Now! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: