Repost: The Big One

Sun Jul 13 22:16:47 CDT 2008

The Pynchon family name ought to be rather well known considering they had the 
second largest investment house to fall in the first great depression and the 
first book written in the New World to be burned as heretical in the New World. 
It is as if their family history was erased from the textbooks. I could go on 
and perhaps provide leads, but you have been so consistently dismissive of 
everything I say, I really don't see the point. 

What does this have to do with the Bush family?  (Feel free to respond with renaissance fair recipes.)

-----Original Message-----
From: robinlandseadel at comcast.net
To: P-list <pynchon-l at waste.org>
Sent: Sun, 13 Jul 2008 11:07 pm
Subject: Re: Repost: The Big One

          Malign:
          So let's hear the argument behind your simple-minded formulation.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2004/sep/25/usa.secondworldwar

I've infected the P-List archives with all sorts of posts on the subject,
I'm certain you've already dumped on them.

The Pynchon family name ought to be rather well known considering they had the 
second largest investment house to fall in the first great depression and the 
first book written in the New World to be burned as heretical in the New World. 
It is as if their family history was erased from the textbooks. I could go on 
and perhaps provide leads, but you have been so consistently dismissive of 
everything I say, I really don't see the point. 

The further I look into the hi
story of the Pynchon Family in America, the 
clearer it becomes that's it's central to Thomas Pynchon's writing. 

Attached Message

From:

malignd at aol.com

To:

pynchon-l at waste.org

Subject:

Re: Repost: The Big One

Date:

Mon, 14 Jul 2008 02:53:34 +0000

Since you ask, I have read Richard Sasuly's book, which was the clear source for GR; also, Crime and Punishment of IG Farben by Joseph Borkin.  One I own, the other is in the NY Librarly system.

So let's hear the argument behind your simple-minded formulation.

-----Original Message-----

From: robinlandseadel at comcast.net

To: P-list <pynchon-l at waste.org>

Sent: Sun, 13 Jul 2008 10:19 pm

Subject: Re: Repost: The Big One

          malignd: 
          Just wondering: do you have any knowledge of 

    IG Farben outside of your reading in Pynchon? 

Yep, all roads lead to Prescott Bush.

Any questions?

Attached Message

From:

malignd at aol.com

To:

pyncho
n-l at waste.org

Subject:

Re: Repost: The Big One

Date:

Mon, 14 Jul 2008 02:08:22 +0000

<<No, you're not alone in seeing the moral nuance, Mark.  When he writes of IG 
Farben or the Ludlow Massacre, there's not a whole lot of room for moral nuance.  
I don't know of any essays written by anyone (correct me someone if I'm wrong) 
that show that the Rockefeller's actions in the Ludlow massacre were based on a 
genuinely moral outlook.  You don't need to be a moralizing prig to come down on 
the side of the miners. When we're talking about whether TRP's writing is 
morally flat or un-nuanced, the implication is that he's somewhat of a prig or 
at least a knee-jerker.>>

Just wondering: do you have any knowledge of IG Farben or the Ludlow massacre outside of your reading in Pynchon? If not, your taking his point of view to argue for the correctness of his point of view.

-----Original Message-----

From: kelber at mindspring.com

To: pynchon-l at waste.org

Sent: Sun, 13 Jul 2008 6:06 pm

Subject: Re: Repost: The Big One

No, you're not alone in seeing the moral nuance, Mark.  When he writes of IG 
F
arben or the Ludlow Massacre, there's not a20whole lot of room for moral nuance.  
I don't know of any essays written by anyone (correct me someone if I'm wrong) 
that show that the Rockefeller's actions in the Ludlow massacre were based on a 
genuinely moral outlook.  You don't need to be a moralizing prig to come down on 
the side of the miners. When we're talking about whether TRP's writing is 
morally flat or un-nuanced, the implication is that he's somewhat of a prig or 
at least a knee-jerker.

When he writes about WWI or the aftermath of the Mexican Revolution (Madero 
presidency) he's aware that there are no good guys to side with.  In the 
sequence where Frank dynamites a moving train in a collision course with 
Federales, knowingly causing untold human and animal deaths, he's become 
uncomfortably aware that he's going through the motions (and deadly motions they 
are); he no longer knows or much cares what he's fighting for.  Then TRP's 
morality kicks in: the morality of the state of grace, the Buddhist viewpoint:

(p. 985):  " ... suddenly the day had become extradimensional, the country 
shifted, was no longer the desert abstraction of a map but was speed, air 
rushing, the smell of smoke and steam, time whose substance grew more condensed 
as each tick came faster and faster, all perfectly inseparable from Frank's 
certainty that jumping or not jumping was no longer the point, he belonged to 
what was happening ..."

Faced with the moral chaos of WWI,=2
0the Mexican devolution, the post 9-11 wo
rld, 
the only choice (I think he's saying) is to view the world in its proper 
perspective, as it is, nothing more.  This may be moralizing, but it's neither 
flat or un-nuanced.

Laura

-----Original Message-----
>From: Mark Kohut <markekohut at yahoo.com>
>Sent: Jul 13, 2008 10:34 AM
>To: David Payne <dpayne1912 at hotmail.com>
>Cc: pynchon -l <pynchon-l at waste.org>
>Subject: RE: Repost: "The Big One"
>
>As, it seems, the lone contrarian voice, I will risk being wrong again:
>
>There is as much 'moral nuance' in "Against the Day", at least, as in 
>almost any writer. 
>
>Presenting such nuances may be one of TRPs deepest themes here, i.e. a vision 
of life in History that has a fuller range---see Light Over the Ranges---than in 
any other of his books. 
>
>
>--- On Sun, 7/13/08, David Payne <dpayne1912 at hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>> From: David Payne <dpayne1912 at hotmail.com>
>> Subject: RE: Repost: "The Big One"
>> To: malignd at aol.com, pynchon-l at waste.org
>> Date: Sunday, July 13, 2008, 4:12 AM
>> On Fri, 11 Jul 2008 (17:18:29 -0400), malignd at aol.com wrote:
>> 
>> <Very little reading into is called for.
>> 
&
gt;> That's funny sh^t, man, but, umm, just for the record,
>> when I said "morally flat," I did not mean
>> morally void, I meant morally un-nuanced.
>> 
>> Like, for example, a moral vision that collapses everyone
>> into Nazis or Abbie Hoffman--that's morally flat. As is
>> a vision that sees Capitalism as the Right for all Wrongs.
>> Or a vision that sees Lex Luther as the archnemesis of0A>> Superman. Or a vision that sees the Jews as the evil that
>> must be exterminated by the Supermen.
>> 
>> Flattening morality is a common trick, practiced by
>> revolutionaries (Public Enemy? Bush? ), the status quo
>> (Reagan? Bush?), satarists (Bush? Dante?), and simpletons
>> (Homer Simpson? Bush?).
>> 
>> Moral nuance is also a common trick, supposedly practiced
>> by con men, lovers, and novelists.
>> 
>> I am perfectly willing to concede the point (i.e., Pynchon
>> creates novels that place characters in a morally-flat
>> universe) if faced with a nuanced (or sinister) argument,
>> but--my thinking right now--it seems to me that Pynchon
>> often flattens morality into good guys vs. bad guys as a
>> satirist's (sp? -- one who creates satire?) tool in
>> order to issue moral clarity and comic relieve.
>> 
>> I dig Pynchon, but I do not turn to his novels for solace
>> when I feel temptation, a morally gray world tugging me on
>> all three sides ... his
 characters fight the powers that
>> be, or they die, or they *are* (gasp!) the powers that be. 
>> 
>> So till sweet death do us part, may Dog have mercy. But
>> don't tell nobody.

The Famous, the Infamous, the Lame - in your browser. Get the TMZ Toolbar Now! 

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://waste.org/pipermail/pynchon-l/attachments/20080713/a903bbcf/attachment-0001.html>