TMoP: Chapter 5 pgs 36- 42

[Mark Kohut]

yes, gritty--and grinding. Suspicious therefore vaguely threatening. Maximov IS sinister. He withholds things from D.---for his purposes--the purposes of Authority; established Society. 
Power; The power structure. 

D, is the writer, the artist as outside(r) of that structure? 

Bekah's question: 

Mark

--- On Sat, 10/4/08, Richard Ryan <richardryannyc at yahoo.com> wrote:

> From: Richard Ryan <richardryannyc at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Re: TMoP:  Chapter 5  pgs 36- 42
> To: "Bekah" <Bekah0176 at sbcglobal.net>, "Pynchon-L" <pynchon-l at waste.org>
> Date: Saturday, October 4, 2008, 1:47 PM
> "Gritty"  is a good word for it Bekah - almost
> noir-ish.  Like Marlowe's recurrent encounters with a
> cadre of venal, vaguely sinister law enforcement types; a
> running motif in the Chandler novels....
> 
> 
> --- On Sat, 10/4/08, Bekah <Bekah0176 at sbcglobal.net>
> wrote:
> From: Bekah <Bekah0176 at sbcglobal.net>
> Subject: Re: TMoP:  Chapter 5  pgs 36- 42
> To: "pynchon -l" <pynchon-l at waste.org>
> Cc: "Richard Ryan"
> <richardryannyc at yahoo.com>, "Mark Kohut"
> <markekohut at yahoo.com>
> Date: Saturday, October 4, 2008, 1:05 PM
> 
> That interrogation by Maximov has a "gritty" feel
> to it - like some  
> of the best detective stuff today.    Maximov exudes danger
> - unlike  
> the friendly investigator, Columbo.
> 
> But  more to the point of the thread,  yes,  I also felt
> some strong  
> lit theory statements coming from that section.  Maximov is
> so  
> preoccupied with his own preconceptions he cannot give
> himself over  
> to, open himself up to, the words as the author (Pavel)
> wrote them.    
> Of course, that's not exactly a part of Maximov's
> job description -  
> it's very much a part of D.  and Coetzee - probably
> Dostoevsky,  
> too.   I try but ... reader response is always there - my
> own little  
> back-pack of ideas coming to the text with me.   As I was
> reading  
> Pavel's story I was looking for the relationship
> between him and the  
> nihilists.  Apparently D. wasn't.   ???
> 
> Bekah
> 
> 
> 
> On Oct 4, 2008, at 5:33 AM, Mark Kohut wrote:
> 
> >
> > Maximov, and the office, is very in the Russian
> bureaucratic  
> > "tradition' from Gogol on. "Poor
> Folk",
> Dostoevsky's [and D.'s!]  
> > first novel is in that tradition.  There is a pale
> reflection/ 
> > allusion---given Maximov's postion and
> interrogation of D.--of the  
> > classic Grand Inquistor scene from The Brothers
> Karamzov, perhaps?  
> > Or, Authority vs. the Artist?
> >
> > Or any number of police interrogations from many
> countries, as M.  
> > knows things/clues that the interrogated does
> not---and tries to  
> > extract more info. See if he is 'complicit' in
> any knowledge.
> Where  
> > suspicion and paranoia might start? Brought to high
> art by Kafka, say?
> >
> > There is a famous Kafka line: A book/story worth
> reading must  
> > be“‘like an ax to break the frozen ice within
> us.’” Coetzee may be
>  
> > alluding to that, (among other things) in D.'s
> exchange with  
> > Maximov?. D. has "fire within him" as he
> excoriates Maximov for
> his  
> > inability to read! D. says reading "is being the
> arm and being the  
> > axe and being the skull"..."reading is
> giving yourself
> up"....An  
> > inquisitor---"holding himself at a distance and
> jeering" can not
>  
> > feel a book right. D. says M.'s policeman's
> motives are grounded
> in  
> > hatred (and revenge)?
> >
> > Then M. says that D. sees reading 'as though it
> were demon- 
> > possession"!!!
> > Wonderful. Fully thematic, of course. Shakespeare,
> others, have  
> > written that one cannot write anything
> believeably---including  
> > about evil,etc.--without in some way having felt it.
> >
> > If D. is mostly C. here, then maybe the argument is
> that a genuine  
> > reader must be a kind of co-creator? The genuine
> reader must FEEL  
> > the genuine work
> > as the author did when he wrote it? A metaphoric entry
> into the  
> > writer's ego/feelings?
> >
> > Coetzee has found a literary image to embody all of
> that, imho.
> >
> >
> > --- On Fri, 10/3/08, Richard Ryan
> <richardryannyc at yahoo.com> wrote:
> >
> >> From: Richard Ryan
> <richardryannyc at yahoo.com>
> >> Subject: Re: TMoP:  Chapter 5  pgs 36- 42
> >> To: "pynchon -l"
> <pynchon-l at waste.org>,
> "Bekah"  
> >> <bekah0176 at sbcglobal.net>
> >> Date: Friday, October 3, 2008, 10:51 AM
> >> Another evocative aspect of this scene is D's
> tenderness
> >> toward Pavel's writing, which he appears to
> regard as
> >> amateurish but touching, and his counterpoised
> hostility
> >> toward Maximov, who he accuses of not knowing how
> to read
> >> (i.e, reading without an understanding that the
> imagination
> >> is never an uncomplicated reflection of
> reality....)
> >>
> >> In the writer-reader dichotomy, Coetzee's
> Dostoevsky
> >> would seem to be clearly sided with writer.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> --- On Fri, 10/3/08, Bekah
> <bekah0176 at sbcglobal.net>
> >> wrote:
> >> From: Bekah <bekah0176 at sbcglobal.net>
> >> Subject: TMoP:  Chapter 5  pgs 36- 42
> >> To: "pynchon -l"
> <pynchon-l at waste.org>
> >> Date: Friday, October 3, 2008, 8:19 AM
> >>
> >> TMoP:  Chapter 5  pgs 36- 48
> >>
> >>   [from the book page 36 :     Maximov:   "I
> would not
> >> have thought
> >> you a martinet for principles"]
> >>
> >> *a martinet is someone who insists on strict
> adherence to
> >> the rules
> >> -  Is Maximov referring to, insulting with irony,
> >> Dostoevsky's
> >> gambling addiction and the contradiction with his
> Russian
> >> Orthodox
> >> views?
> >>
> >> [page 36:  The list Dostoevsky is shown contains
> the names
> >> of people
> >> who are to be assassinated, according to Maximov.
> >> Dostoevsky
> >> recognizes some names. ]
> >>
> >> * "People's Vengeance"  was the
> Russian
> >> branch of the nihilist
> >> organization  Nechaev (and Bakunin) and were
> trying to set
> >> up.
> >>
> >> ***********
> >> [page 37:  Maximov says Pavel took his own life -
> D. denies
> >> this...]
> >>
> >> * but the alternative is that Pavel was murdered -
> perhaps
> >> an
> >> accident, though.
> >>
> >> ***********
> >>
> >> [pages 38-39:   what is the nature of
> "private
> >> papers"?   Is  a
> >> short story written by a dead man  who has no
> stated heirs
> >> private
> >> material? ]
> >>
> >> * interesting question -
> >>
> >> ***********
> >> [ page 40:    D. adamantly agrees a short story is
> private
> >> until
> >> published.  The story in question is summarized
> and
> >> concerns the
> >> brutal murder of a lascivious landlord - ]
> >>
> >> *  it's not really like the death of
> Dostoevsky's
> >> father.   The name
> >> of the victim is "Karamazin,"  which
> although it
> >> sounds like
> >> "Karamazov," but is actually the name of
> a 19th
> >> century Russian
> >> nationalist/slavophile historian.   The name of
> the young
> >> murderer is
> >> "Sergei" - as in Nechaev (and others
> I'm sure
> >> - could be purely
> >> fiction).
> >>
> >> ***********
> >>
> >> [page 41 -   [from the book:  in Pavel's
> story,  Sergei
> >> takes the
> >> hatchet when he and the woman escape - "What
> >> for?"   " '
> >> Because it
> >> is the weapon of the Russian people, our means of
> defense
> >> and our
> >> means of refuge."     ]
> >>
> >> * I think this story is kind of important to
> Coetzee's
> >> work as Pavel
> >> is showing the old greedy Russia being killed but
> the
> >> murderer
> >> picking up the axe for use in future struggles -
> >> People's
> >> Vengeance.   The hatchet or axe was used as the
> seal on
> >> documents
> >> from the "People's Vengeance Party"
> >> "Anarchist Portraits" by Paul Avrich -
> see Google
> >> Books
> >> http://tinyurl.com/5crjoa   (pg 41)
> >>
> >> ***********
> >> [page 42  Maximov sees the story with Sergei's
> taking
> >> the axe with
> >> him,  as evidence of Pavel's association with
> the
> >> revolutionaries.
> >> D.  is outraged that a work of fiction should be
> used to
> >> determine an
> >> author's ideas, identity,  possibly guilt. ]
> >>
> >> * This is pure Coetzee -  Dostoevsky's works
> were
> >> almost direct
> >> reflections of his own ideas and beliefs, doubts
> or
> >> confusions.
> >> Coetzee has, otoh,  long disputed a reader's
> authority
> >> to make this
> >> connection.   As a result of "Disgrace,"
>  Coetzee
> >> was branded a
> >> racist and imo, this led to his decision to leave
> South
> >> Africa
> >> although it wasn't the sole reason for his
> emigration
> >> to Australia.
> >>
> >> [page 42:  D. speaks :   "What you call
> Nechaevism has
> >> always existed
> >> in Russia, though under other names.  Nechaevism
> is as
> >> Russian as
> >> brigandage."
> >>
> >> *  Dostoevsky's view of the underside to
> Russian-ness.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >