Not politics - Pynchon (bombs)

[Mark Kohut]

Kudos, Laura, for bringing it up again. Before--and after--the Revolution
(as the saying went, back in the day), such open-minded, "critical" discussion is part of a GOOD SOCIETY, imho. 

And, Laura, here is a way we AGREE....I HAD THE SAME THOUGHT about bringing up the question again--my flatter attempts have fallen flat---
AND USING THIS WEATHERMAN thread to link it. (But, I said to myself, self,
let it be.) 

Laura is very right about me re this.  In fact,  I occasionally think that the Weatherman news, manifestos, stories, and actions and wantabe-actions that went around America during those crucial years were "surely" part of Pynchon's mind--and discussions with some, etc.  

I say TRP probably had great sympathy with their desires and moral reasons---all the way to massive non-violent civil disobedience...................
BUT NO MORE. 

I suggest that one meaning of "the Traverses" might be that they traverse moral boundaries.....

I suggest that "Gravity's Rainbow" can be seen as massive civil disobedience from TRP. 


--- On Wed, 10/8/08, kelber at mindspring.com <kelber at mindspring.com> wrote:

> From: kelber at mindspring.com <kelber at mindspring.com>
> Subject: Re: Not politics - Pynchon (bombs)
> To: pynchon-l at waste.org
> Date: Wednesday, October 8, 2008, 2:02 PM
> My daughter's a Brandeis kid, following in the footsteps
> (or not) of Abby Hoffman, Angela Davis, and various other
> Brandeis alums who straddled both sides of the
> militant/terrorist divide.  To steer this back to Pynchon,
> Mark Kohut and I have had a running argument about whether
> TRP sees Webb Traverse and other anarchist bombers as good
> guys or bad guys.  I say yes, Mark says no.  To reframe the
> question, what might TRP's attitude be towards Bill
> Ayers and the other Weathermen?  I'm assuming a basic,
> if critical, tolerance (somewhat short of outright
> affection).  Mark, I'm guessing would disagree.
> 
> Laura
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> >From: Joe Allonby <joeallonby at gmail.com>
> >Sent: Oct 8, 2008 12:57 PM
> >To: markekohut at yahoo.com
> >Cc: Michael Bailey
> <michael.lee.bailey at gmail.com>, P-list
> <pynchon-l at waste.org>
> >Subject: Re: Not politics - Pynchon (bombs)
> >
> >So was there an official membership list for the
> Weather Underground?
> >Wouldn't that defeat the purpose of being
> underground? Susan Saxe and
> >Katherine Ann Power did kill someone or at least were
> active accomplices in
> >the shooting. Were they not "officially"
> Weathermen or were Brandeis kids
> >considered dilettantes?
> >
> >On Wed, Oct 8, 2008 at 9:24 AM, Mark Kohut
> <markekohut at yahoo.com> wrote:
> >
> >> The interviewer also quoted some of Ayers' own
> criticism of Weatherman in
> >> the foreword to the memoir, whereby Ayers reacts
> to having watched Emile de
> >> Antonio's 1976 documentary film about
> Weatherman, Underground: "[Ayers] was
> >> 'embarrassed by the arrogance, the solipsism,
> the absolute certainty that we
> >> and we alone knew the way. The rigidity and the
> narcissism.' "[14] "We
> >> weren't terrorists," Ayers told an
> interviewer for the Chicago Tribune in
> >> 2001. "The reason we weren't terrorists
> is because we did not commit random
> >> acts of terror against people. Terrorism was what
> was being practiced in the
> >> countryside of Vietnam by the United
> States."[2] However, Gitlin, the former
> >> SDS member and author of "The Sixties: Years
> of Hope, Days of Rage," doesn't
> >> buy Ayers' reasoning. "OK, let's give
> them a medal for not killing anybody
> >> besides themselves," he says. "But they
> wanted to be terrorists. They
> >> planned on being terrorists. Then their bomb blew
> up and killed
> >>  several of them and they thought better of it.
> They were failed
> >> terrorists." The bomb in this case was packed
> with nails demonstrating clear
> >> intent to inflict human casualties.
> >>
> >> In a letter to the editor in the Chicago Tribune,
> Ayers wrote, "I condemn
> >> all forms of terrorism — individual, group and
> official". He also condemned
> >> the September 11 terrorist attacks in that letter.
> "Today we are witnessing
> >> crimes against humanity on our own shores on an
> unthinkable scale, and I
> >> fear that we may soon see more innocent people in
> other parts of the world
> >> dying in response."[23]
> >>
> >>
> >> [edit] Views on his past expressed since 2001
> >> Ayers was asked in a January 2004 interview,
> "How do you feel about what
> >> you did? Would you do it again under similar
> circumstances?" He replied:[24]
> >> "I've thought about this a lot. Being
> almost 60, it's impossible to not have
> >> lots and lots of regrets about lots and lots of
> things, but the question of
> >> did we do something that was horrendous, awful?
> ... I don't think so. I
> >> think what we did was to respond to a situation
> that was unconscionable." On
> >> September 9, 2008, journalist Jake Tapper reported
> on the comic strip in
> >> Bill Ayers's blog explaining the soundbite:
> "The one thing I don't regret is
> >> opposing the war in Vietnam with every ounce of my
> being.... When I say, 'We
> >> didn't do enough,' a lot of people rush to
> think, 'That must mean, "We
> >> didn't bomb enough shit."' But
> that's not the point at all. It's not a
> >> tactical statement, it's an obvious political
> and ethical statement. In this
> >> context, 'we' means
> 'everyone.'"[25][26]
> >>
> >>
> >> [edit] Ayers' political views
> >>
> >>
> >> --- On Wed, 10/8/08, Joe Allonby
> <joeallonby at gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> > From: Joe Allonby
> <joeallonby at gmail.com>
> >> > Subject: Re: Not politics - Pynchon (bombs)
> >> > To: "Michael Bailey"
> <michael.lee.bailey at gmail.com>
> >> > Cc: "P-list"
> <pynchon-l at waste.org>
> >> > Date: Wednesday, October 8, 2008, 8:53 AM
> >>  > They shot a cop in a bank robbery about two
> blocks from
> >> > where I'm typing
> >> > this.
> >> >
> >> > On Wed, Oct 8, 2008 at 3:32 AM, Michael
> Bailey
> >> > <michael.lee.bailey at gmail.com
> >> > > wrote:
> >> >
> >> > > there are a lot of good books reviewing
> the Weather
> >> > Underground
> >> > > and a couple of videos
> >> > >
> >> > > what I came away with from looking at a
> few of them
> >> > was
> >> > >
> >> > > they managed to not kill a lot of people
> (I'm
> >> > thinking zero, but that
> >> > > could be wrong)
> >> > >
> >> > > they got some impressive targets
> >> > >
> >> > > their statements indicate they were
> reacting from
> >> > understandable
> >> > > outrage at the unimaginably
> >> > > evil bombing of Cambodia
> >> > >
> >> > > they didn't accomplish a whole heck
> of a lot
> >> > >
> >> > > they could easily have been
> provocateurs, in that
> >> > their actions justified
> >> > > draconian enforcement AND took attention
> away from
> >> > Amerikka's SE Asia
> >> > > murders
> >> > >
> >> > > oh, a-and that Mark Rudd went on to
> become a community
> >> > college math
> >> > > teacher!
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > > On 10/7/08, Glenn Scheper
> >> > <glenn_scheper at earthlink.net> wrote:
> >> > > > From a political email...
> >> > > >
> >> > > >  During The Time Obama And Ayers
> Served Together
> >> > On The Woods Fund, Ayers
> >> > > Was
> >> > > >  Quoted Saying "I Don't
> Regret Setting
> >> > Bombs ... I Feel We Didn't Do
> >> > > Enough." "'I
> >> > > >  don't regret setting
> bombs,' Bill Ayers
> >> > said. 'I feel we didn't do
> >> > > enough.' Mr.
> >> > > >  Ayers, who spent the 1970's as
> a fugitive in
> >> > the Weather Underground,
> >> > > was
> >> > > >  sitting in the kitchen of his big
> >> > turn-of-the-19th-century stone house
> >> > > in the
> >> > > >  Hyde Park district of
> Chicago." (Dinitia
> >> > Smith, "No Regrets For A Love
> >> > > Of
> >> > > >  Explosives," The New York
> Times, 9/11/01)
> >> > > >   -- file://PastedText/854250
> >> > > >
> >> > > >  ==========
> >> > > >
> >> > > >  BTW, a hiatus in my help(?) on the
> TMoP read:
> >> > > >
> >> > > >  I got a local apt w/o web access
> yet;
> >> > > >  I fled work when the wife showed
> up.
> >> > > >
> >> > > >  I'm in a small town that is
> sooo cool!
> >> > > >
> >> > > >  I saw a town parade, and knew two
> people in it.
> >> > > >
> >> > > >  I dropped in at a van there to
> give blood for
> >> > the
> >> > > >  first time (although postponed due
> to
> >> > anitbiotics).
> >> > > >
> >> > > >  I'm walking around in a
> relaxed, loving
> >> > spirit,
> >> > > >  and people are very cordial.
> >> > > >
> >> > > >  A scary looking bulked ethnic
> flashed me
> >> > "peace".
> >> > > >
> >> > > >  I got my first real cheeseburger
> at a local
> >> > joint.
> >> > > >  "I've been victimized by
> McDonalds all
> >> > these years."
> >> > > >
> >> > > >  A local emporium--not Walmart--has
> everything.
> >> > > >  I even saw a pair of welding
> googles.
> >> > > >  I got a wine bottle opener, and
> other needful
> >> > things.
> >> > > >
> >> > > >  Some friends with a business set
> me up in a
> >> > spare office with Internet.
> >> > > >
> >> > > >  A man gave me a guava off his tree
> this morning.
> >> > > >
> >> > > >  I'm checking out Toastmasters
> tomorrow
> >> > evening.
> >> > > >
> >> > > >  Yours truly,
> >> > > >  Glenn Scheper
> >> > > > 
> http://home.earthlink.net/~glenn_scheper/
> >> > > >
> >> > > > glenn_scheper + at + earthlink.net
> >> > > >  Copyleft(!) Forward freely.
> >> > > >
> >> > > >
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > > --
> >> > > "He ain't crazy, he's
> a-makin'
> >> > pottery" - Finley Pater Dunne
> >> > >
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>