TMOP: Chapter 7
Mark Kohut
markekohut at yahoo.com
Mon Oct 13 05:19:22 CDT 2008
"Elizabeth Costello"...which title I could not remember when I wrote this....and the womn does not 'give herself' wholly just gives oral sex
kindly, surprising an old man.
--- On Sun, 10/12/08, Bekah <Bekah0176 at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> From: Bekah <Bekah0176 at sbcglobal.net>
> Subject: Re: TMOP: Chapter 7
> To: markekohut at yahoo.com
> Cc: "pynchon -l" <pynchon-l at waste.org>
> Date: Sunday, October 12, 2008, 7:44 PM
> On Oct 12, 2008, at 12:51 PM, Mark Kohut wrote:
>
> > Just a few obs after this so-thorough posting.
> >
> > In another novel, Coetzee has a woman who 'gives
> herself' out
> > of....kindness? niceness?...moved by
> "pleading"? Seems thematic.
>
> Memory fails, which novel? They've mostly got sex in
> them but not
> usually as a result of "kindness." (That I
> remember.) I'm really
> curious!
>
>
> **
>
> >
> > D.'s remark on fathers/sons...so part of this
> book, Russia then
> > [Turgenev's
> > book as Rich ahs remarked] and the
> "psychological/Freudian'
> > perspective on History?
>
> I was wondering but I haven't read Turgenev so I
> can't say.
> **
>
> >
> > Old growing small...in Spirit? "Blessed are the
> poor in Spirit, for
> > they shall inherit the Kingdom of God". another
> perspective on
> > 'too much wealth"..having too much Spirit??
> [Cf. Demons as
> > spiritual beings?]
>
> I think Dostoevsky thought of Demons as anti-spiritual - as
> darkness
> is anti-light. Demons could be spiritual beings only if
> the term
> spiritual is meant in some non-religious sense.
>
> **
>
> > "joy breaking like a dawn" reminded me of
> Nietzsche and his
> > Daybreak thematic similarity....but if so, it is
> Coetzee, not D.,
> > slyly alluding, of course.
>
> Hmmm.... perhaps. It's been a long time since I've
> looked at Nietzsche.
>
> **
> >
> > I think Coetzee does want the possession theme of
> epilepsy to
> > resonate (as you all probably do)...He, Coetzee, seems
> to be
> > working with mutual back-and-forth resonances the
> notion of 'being
> > possessed'...this is Dostevsky's way of
> understanding Nechaev (and
> > group), and Coetzee's way of understanding D. ...?
>
> Well, in Demons the revolutionaries are possessed by
> demons and they
> do absolutely nothing of any import. They are presented as
> fumblers
> and bumblers as well as generally perverse and demented
> people. But
> it's because they're possessed by ideas which are
> really demons
> abroad in the land (as Maximov discounts). Ideas can
> possess people
> and as such they are demons.
>
>
>
> >
> > Often jealousy starts when one's feelings (of
> budding love) starts.
> > Is this
> > also happening (along with his writerly snooping for
> deeper truths)?
>
> But in Elizabeth Costello she's jealous of a really old
> flame's new
> "love."
>
>
> Bekah
>
> *****
>
> >
> >
> > --- On Thu, 10/9/08, Bekah
> <Bekah0176 at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> >
> >> From: Bekah <Bekah0176 at sbcglobal.net>
> >> Subject: TMOP: Chapter 7
> >> To: "pynchon -l"
> <pynchon-l at waste.org>
> >> Date: Thursday, October 9, 2008, 10:40 PM
> >> Matryona
> >>
> >> [Page 66 - D. doesn't return from the island
> to the
> >> house with Anna
> >> and Matryona. He wanders, declines a card game at
> the inn.
> >>
> >> (he's switched obsessions perhaps?)
> >>
> >> [ And he feels lonely. Aware that he may be
> wearing out
> >> his welcome
> >> with Anna. Aware that he is growing physically
> older -
> >> aware of
> >> haemorrhoids - dry skin, dental plates.
> >>
> >> *Dostoevsky really had dentures, hemorrhoids but
> perhaps
> >> not so early.]
> >>
> >> **********
> >>
> >> [ Page 67 - He wonders what Matryona thinks about
> this
> >> "spectacle of
> >> decay." He flinches at the idea of being
> an object
> >> of pity,
> >> remembering Anna's comment "You were
> >> pleading." (Line 7) (from pg 59)
> >> and D. turns to Pavel, kneeling against the bed.
> "...
> >> tries to find
> >> his way to Yelagin Island and to Pavel in his cold
> >> grave." ]
> >>
> >> * There's an abundance of self-pity here but
> he's
> >> also really in
> >> deep turmoil. As has been said, this is total
> fiction -
> >> in
> >> Dostoevsky's life, Pavel outlived his
> step-father and
> >> Yelagin Island
> >> has never been a cemetery.
> >>
> >> http://www.encspb.ru/en/article.php?kod=2804008886
> >>
> >> Mentions "a Finnish-Swedish cemetery at
> Elagin
> >> (Aptekarsky) Island
> >> (abolished in 1756)." - That's only
> missing the
> >> "Y" and I think
> >> they're the same place. Many, many other
> cemeteries
> >> listed at the
> >> above site. "In 1738, the Synod affirmed
> five places
> >> where burials
> >> were to take place, of which only the cemetery on
> >> Vasilievsky Island
> >> has survived. " Mostly cemetery plots were
> free and
> >> located near the
> >> churches.
> >> http://www.encspb.ru/en/article.php?kod=2804010103
> (but I
> >> can't find the source for the info.)
> Meanwhile,
> >> Elagin/Yelagin
> >> Island has no church actually on it. ???
> >>
> >> View on Yelegin Island
> >>
> http://www.oilpaintinghk.com/art/oil_paintings_24317.html
> >>
> http://www.nlr.ru/petersburg/spbpcards/photos/lo000000377_1_m.jpg
> >>
> >> [line 14 "The father faded copy of the son.
> How can
> >> he expect a
> >> woman who beheld the son in the pride of his days
> to look
> >> with favour
> >> on the father?"]
> >>
> >> * That is such an incredible line. To me it
> describes
> >> this whole
> >> part of the plot. D. is trying to become son but
> he is
> >> only a weak
> >> version and a copy at that. He's comparing
> his
> >> manliness and life-
> >> force with that of Pavel's.
> >>
> >> [line 17 - Remembering the quote of a
> fellow-prisoner in
> >> Siberia - "
> >> ' Why are we given old age, brothers? So that
> we can
> >> grow small
> >> again, small enough to crawl through the eye of a
> >> needle.' Peasant
> >> wisdom." ]
> >>
> >> * It was in Siberia that Dostoevsky experienced
> his
> >> life-changing
> >> conversion to Russian Orthodox Christianity - he
> was
> >> disgusted by the
> >> class hatred, the filth and lack of moral fiber
> of the
> >> peasants he
> >> came in contact with there but was mightily
> impressed by
> >> their
> >> spirituality.
> >> http://www.dartmouth.edu/~karamazo/bio04.html
> >>
> >> * The eye of the needle is from Matthew 19: 23 -
> 26 and
> >> Mark 10:25
> >> http://biblecc.com/matthew/19-24.htm
> >> http://bible.cc/mark/10-25.htm
> >>
> >> The reference probably means that old men grow
> very humble.
> >> In the
> >> Biblical references it refers to wealth and
> possibly to
> >> Needle's
> >> Eye, one of many gates into Jerusalem, which is
> so small
> >> only an
> >> unencumbered camel on its knees can pass through -
> any
> >> excess wealth
> >> (treasure boxes) can't fit.
> >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eye_of_a_needle
> >>
> >>
> >> [line 23 He wakes the next day full of life. He
> feels
> >> resurrected
> >> and wants to shout "Christ is risen!"
> And he
> >> wants to dance with
> >> Anna and Matryona and painted eggs. ]
> >>
> >> * This is October, not spring, but October is
> not really
> >> cold in
> >> St. Petersburg (mid 40s F. for a high) and there
> isn't
> >> much rain
> >> then. hat has brought this sudden lift of
> spirits about?
> >> (Grief is
> >> a mysterious process, there are moments or days of
> joy
> >> interspersed
> >> with the heavy gloom.)
> >>
> >> * One of Dostoevsky's Siberian spiritual
> experiences
> >> occurred at Easter.
> >> From
> >>
> http://neurophilosophy.wordpress.com/2007/04/16/diagnosing-
> >> dostoyevskys-epilepsy/ :
> >>> On Easter night, during his exile in Siberia,
> >> Dostoyevsky was
> >>> visited by an old friend, to whom he described
> the
> >> almost prophetic
> >>> vision he had experienced during the aura
> preceding
> >> one of his
> >>> attacks:
> >>>
> >>> The air was filled with a big noise and I
> tried to
> >> move. I felt the
> >>> heaven was going down upon the earth, and that
> it had
> >> engulfed me.
> >>> I have really touched God. He came into me
> myself;
> >> yes, God exists,
> >>> I cried, You all, healthy people, have no idea
> what
> >> joy that joy is
> >>> which we epileptics experience the second
> before a
> >> seizure.
> >>> Mahomet, in his Koran, said he had seen
> Paradise and
> >> had gone into
> >>> it. All these stupid clever men are quite sure
> that he
> >> was a liar
> >>> and a charlatan. But no, he did not lie, he
> really had
> >> been in
> >>> Paradise during an attack of epilepsy; he was
> a victim
> >> of this
> >>> disease as I am. I do not know whether this
> joy lasts
> >> for seconds
> >>> or hours or months, but believe me, I would
> not
> >> exchange it for all
> >>> the delights of this world.
> >>>
> >>
> >> *****************
> >>
> >> [page 68 But this "...joy breaking like a
> dawn"
> >> lasts only an
> >> instant. An "anti-sun" appears and the
> word
> >> "omen" crosses his mind
> >> to reveal the idea that there will be 'an
> eclipse; joy
> >> shines out
> >> only to reveal what the annihilation of joy will
> be like.
> >> ' " ]
> >>
> >> * This uplift of spirits often precedes a seizure
> - see my
> >> next post -
> >>
> >> [ D fears this and the accompanying shame so he
> leaves the
> >> house to
> >> deal with it privately. In the dark staircase
> there is a
> >> loud cry
> >> but although the neighbors wake up, D.
> doesn't hear
> >> it. ]
> >>
> >> "Dostoevsky was affected by physical and
> mental
> >> disturbances
> >> following a seizure (This is also called the
> >> 'post-ictal 'state) It
> >> took him up to one week to recover fully. His
> chief
> >> complaint was
> >> that his 'head did not clear up' for
> several days
> >> and symptoms
> >> included, "heaviness and even pain in the
> head,
> >> disorders of the
> >> nerves, nervous laugh and mystical
> depression"
> >>
> >> http://www.charge.org.uk/htmlsite/dost.shtml
> >>
> >> * Did D. yell? I suppose so.
> >>
> >> ***********
> >> [ Page 69 He wakes from the seizure in darkness.]
> >>
> >> * This whole page is a great description of a
> seizure - or
> >> so it
> >> seems to me. Includes the idea of falling into
> yourself.
> >>
> >> Epilepsy:
> >>> The word epilepsy is derived from the Greek
> epilepsia,
> >> which in
> >>> turn can be broken into epi- (upon) and lepsis
> (to
> >> take hold of, or
> >>> seizure)[35] In the past, epilepsy was
> associated with
> >> religious
> >>> experiences and even demonic possession. In
> ancient
> >> times, epilepsy
> >>> was known as the "Sacred Disease"
> because
> >> people thought that
> >>> epileptic seizures were a form of attack by
> demons, or
> >> that the
> >>> visions experienced by persons with epilepsy
> were sent
> >> by the gods.
> >>> Among animist Hmong families, for example,
> epilepsy
> >> was understood
> >>> as an attack by an evil spirit, but the
> affected
> >> person could
> >>> become revered as a shaman through these
> otherworldly
> >> experiences.[36]
> >>>
> >>> However, in most cultures, persons with
> epilepsy have
> >> been
> >>> stigmatized, shunned, or even imprisoned; in
> the
> >> Salpêtrière, the
> >>> birthplace of modern neurology, Jean-Martin
> Charcot
> >> found people
> >>> with epilepsy side-by-side with the mentally
> retarded,
> >> those with
> >>> chronic syphilis, and the criminally insane.
> In
> >> Tanzania to this
> >>> day, as with other parts of Africa, epilepsy
> is
> >> associated with
> >>> possession by evil spirits, witchcraft, or
> poisoning
> >> and is
> >>> believed by many to be contagious.[37] In
> ancient
> >> Rome, epilepsy
> >>> was known as the Morbus Comitialis
> ('disease of
> >> the assembly hall')
> >>> and was seen as a curse from the gods.
> >>>
> >>> Stigma continues to this day, in both the
> public and
> >> private
> >>> spheres, but polls suggest it is generally
> decreasing
> >> with time, at
> >>> least in the developed world; Hippocrates
> remarked
> >> that epilepsy
> >>> would cease to be considered divine the day it
> was
> >> understood.[38]
> >>>
> >>
> >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epilepsy
> >>
> >> * Although the idea that these fits were evidence
> of
> >> "possession by
> >> demons" was pretty well dropped in the 17th
> century,
> >> epilepsy was
> >> not studied medically until the late 19th century.
> This
> >> would have
> >> been unknown by Dostoevsky and his crowd and they
> probably
> >> still
> >> called it the "falling sickness" as in
> Europe
> >> during the Middle Ages
> >> - (and other cultures even today - See "The
> Spirit
> >> Catches You and
> >> You Fall Down" by Anne Fadiman - her best
> work, imho
> >> ).
> >> http://www.epilepsy.com/epilepsy/history
> >> http://library.thinkquest.org/J001619/history.html
> ]
> >>
> >>
> >> * In Demons, Kirilov has a kind of frontal lobe
> epilepsy
> >> and in The
> >> Brothers Karamazov Sverdyakov is so afflicted.
> Prince
> >> Myshkin in
> >> the Idiot has it including one seizure induced by
> looking
> >> at
> >> Holbein's painting "The Dead
> Christ."
> >> http://www.abcgallery.com/H/holbein/holbein8.html
> >>
> >> **********
> >>
> >> [ page 70 - D. walks through the snow and hides
> until he is
> >> sure Anna
> >> and her daughter have gone out. Then he goes back
> to the
> >> house,
> >> washes up pretty thoroughly and then snoops around
> her
> >> house. He
> >> finds a picture of Anna's deceased husband and
> >> "deliberately smudges
> >> the glass, leaving his thumbprint over the face of
> the dead
> >> man."
> >>
> >> * snooping and jealousy? Is he looking for
> evidence of
> >> Pavel or
> >> something else? Whatever he can find, perhaps.
> >>
> >> *****************
> >>
> >> [ page 71 He enjoys sneaking and spying,
> "a
> >> weakness that he has
> >> associated till now with a refusal to accept
> limits to what
> >> he is
> >> permitted to know, with the reading of forbidden
> books, and
> >> thus with
> >> his vocation. Today ... he is in thrall to a
> spirit of
> >> petty
> >> evil ... gives him a voluptuous quiver of
> pleasure."
> >> ]
> >>
> >> * Writing is associated with snooping? (Yes,
> I've
> >> always thought so.)
> >>
> >> * D. is presented as going from ecstasy to terror
> to a
> >> voluptuous
> >> quiver of pleasure" within the space of a
> single
> >> morning. Dostoevsky
> >> was emotionally unstable, especially in his later
> years.
> >> Can't have
> >> been an easy life what with the the childhood
> violence,
> >> gambling,
> >> religion, epilepsy and other things . ]
> >>
> >> [ D. dons Pavel's white suit and checking
> the mirror
> >> "sees only a
> >> seedy imposture and, beyond that, something
> surreptitious
> >> and
> >> obscene, something that belongs behind the locked
> doors and
> >> curtained
> >> windows of rooms where men in wigs and skirts bare
> their
> >> rumps to be
> >> flogged."
> >>
> >> [Yup, he probably looks pretty bad and imo,
> he's
> >> setting himself up
> >> for more perversity there. ]
> >>
> >> [ He lies down and feels like he's falling
> into
> >> blackness again.
> >> When he wakes he has "lost all sense of who
> he
> >> is." He thinks it's a
> >> dream but then the reality hits him.]
> >>
> >> * The reality is that Pavel is dead and D. is
> wearing the
> >> deceased
> >> son's clothes and lying on the deceased
> boy's bed -
> >> possibly in order
> >> to become Pavel.
> >>
> >> ********
> >>
> >> [ Page 72 Matryona comes in and thinks D is
> ill. He
> >> tells her
> >> the story of Pavel's white suit. ]
> >>
> >> * This story is generally similar to the one
> which Peter
> >> Verkhovensky cooks up to assuage Stavrogin's
> mother in
> >> Demons. One
> >> difference is that Stavrogin actually marries the
> crippled
> >> and
> >> feeble-minded Marya Timofeyevna. - Book 1,
> Chapter 5,
> >> Parts V- VII
> >> Marya's brother was a drunkard who beat her.
> >>
> >> * D. likens Maria (Marya in Demons) to a dog or
> a horse -
> >> she
> >> doesn't know any better than to take the abuse
> whatever
> >> abuse is
> >> handed her.
> >>
> >> [ Coetzee does have a thing for animals,
> especially dogs -
> >> see
> >> Disgrace especially. ]
> >>
> >> ********
> >>
> >> [ Page 73 * Matryona is horrified and D.
> forces totally
> >> brutal
> >> Russian ideas on the good, naive, young Matryovna.
> >>
> >> * This is pretty extreme emotional violence done
> to a young
> >> girl.
> >> Coetzee portrays D. as quite a brute.
> >>
> >> D. finishes the story of Marya Lebyatkin
> (Lebyadkin in
> >> Demons), a
> >> variation of the as yet unwritten story of
> Stavrogin's
> >> courtship and
> >> marriage. (Of course, Pavel didn't marry
> Maria as
> >> Stavrogin
> >> married Marya. I'm not sure if this makes
> Pavel a bit
> >> of a cad or not.
> >>
> >> [ Page 74 * - Matryona wiggles and puts her thumb
> in her
> >> mouth!
> >>
> >> The effects of such brutality - Matryona is
> regressing.
> >>
> >> Does D present the story of Pavel and the white
> suit to
> >> make Pavel
> >> look very "chivalrous;" I'm not
> sure I buy
> >> that - it's kind of
> >> caddish for Pavel to lead Maria on like that even
> if D.
> >> totally
> >> invented the story. * The "Demons"
> story of
> >> Stavrogin and Marya is
> >> quite different - (go read it).
> >>
> >> But why the white suit - Coetzee's D.
> didn't invent
> >> that and it
> >> doesn't seem to go with Pavel's station in
> his
> >> Petersburg life.
> >> (Btw, what was Pavel's situation?) Were
> white suits
> >> popular in
> >> Europe ca. 1860? Mark Twain famously had one.
> The War
> >> and Peace
> >> movies always seem to have a guy in a white suit.
> ???
> >>
> >> Who knows why the fictional Pavel had the white
> suit? I
> >> doubt it
> >> was as D. told it - I know the whole thing is
> fiction but
> >> this little
> >> story from D.'s mouth seems to go beyond
> D's usual
> >> unreliablity and
> >> Coetzee's D. is very unreliable - he's
> between
> >> reality and fantasy -
> >> perhaps between life and death.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> * Matryona asks why Pavel killed himself and
> reveals that
> >> her mother
> >> (Anna) thinks Pavel killed himself.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> **********
> >>
> >> [ Page 75 D. suggests that one cannot succeed at
> suicide,
> >> only God
> >> has power over life and death.
> >>
> >> This is another reference to "Demons"
> where
> >> Krillov (Krylov?) is
> >> going to commit suicide in order have the kind of
> >> "free will" which
> >> goes against God - the power over life and death
> - he
> >> wants to
> >> become God.
> >>
> >> [ D. goes on to explain that Pavel was giving God
> an
> >> ultimatum of
> >> sorts, "If you love me you will save
> me" and
> >> betting that God
> >> would. But God didn't. "Perhaps God
> does not
> >> like to be tempted."
> >> or "Perhaps God does not hear very
> well." ]
> >>
> >> * And here's D. and Dostoevsky (and
> >>
> >> [ D. motions to Matryona to sit on the bed and
> puts his arm
> >> around
> >> her. "He can feel her trembling. He strokes
> her hair,
> >> her temples." ]
> >>
> >> **********
> >>
> >> [ Page 76. Finally Matryona balls her fists and
> sobs
> >> freely. ]
> >>
> >> * again, like a small child,
> >>
> >> [ Matryona "Why did he have to die?"
> D. wants
> >> to say he didn't
> >> die, that he's here, "I am he."
> But he
> >> cannot.]
> >>
> >> * the man is drifting seriously out of reality -
> he is
> >> starting to
> >> believe he is Pavel but still knows this is not
> really
> >> true, it would
> >> scare Matryona - why doesn't he say it?
> He's
> >> playing more than
> >> one dangerous game.
> >>
> >> [ "If only the seed could have been taken
> out of the
> >> body, even a
> >> single seed, and given a home." And he
> thinks of the
> >> Hindu Shiva's
> >> seed being drawn out of his dead body.]
> >>
> >>
> http://www.bhagavadgitausa.com.cnchost.com/KALI.h9.jpg
> >>
> >> * If D. is Pavel, then can he impregnate
> Matryona? (is
> >> this what
> >> his thoughts are driving at?)
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> [Now D. imagines Matryona "in her
> ecstasy." and
> >> then, "of a baby,
> >> dead, buried in an iron coffin beneath the
> snow-piled
> >> earth..." and
> >> he stops the "violation," although
> "she
> >> might as well be sprawled out
> >> naked." ]
> >>
> >> * He takes the ideas as far as he can take them -
> a baby
> >> dead and
> >> buried - theirs? And he suddenly abandons the
> idea of
> >> seducing
> >> Matryona.
> >>
> >> [ "She is prostituting the Virgin" as
> the men who
> >> visit child
> >> prostitutes say. They see something maidenly
> beneath the
> >> garish
> >> paint and it outrages them, they need to go so far
> as to
> >> put that
> >> child's life in danger." ]
> >>
> >> Another incredibly compelling visual.
> >>
> >> ******
> >> [page 77 But D.'s "vision, the fit, the
> rictus
> >> of the imagination,
> >> passes."]
> >>
> >> * interesting variation of terms; is this vision
> a seizure
> >> of
> >> sorts? Has there been an opening of the
> imagination? Are
> >> there
> >> other sorts of visions?
> >>
> >> * and is D. cannibalizing the lives of his loved
> ones for
> >> stories?
> >>
> >> [ Matryona asks about making a shrine in the room
> but D.
> >> demurs - he
> >> is only staying a short time but his mourning for
> Pavel
> >> will go on
> >> forever. And he may also mourn Matyona forever,
> but it may
> >> be only a
> >> bit too soon to tell. ]
> >>
> >> ************
> >>
> >> [Page 78 Matryona asks to light a candle for
> Pavel and
> >> keep it
> >> burning. "So he won't be in the
> dark." She
> >> does this and then
> >> "returns to the bed and rests her head on his
> >> arm." ... "He can feel
> >> the soft young bones fold, one over another, as a
> >> bird's wing folds." ]
> >>
> >> Yes, Mr. D. she is so very vulnerable, crushable
> -
> >> don't go there.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Bekah
> >
> >
> >
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