TMOP: Chapter 8 - Ivanov
Mark Kohut
markekohut at yahoo.com
Fri Oct 17 09:13:17 CDT 2008
I, for one, am glad somebody expressed some negativity...although I cannot feel it the same way........I know my striving for exegesis makes me often overlook and overrate...
--- On Thu, 10/16/08, richardryannyc at yahoo.com <richardryannyc at yahoo.com> wrote:
> From: richardryannyc at yahoo.com <richardryannyc at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Re: TMOP: Chapter 8 - Ivanov
> To: markekohut at yahoo.com, "Bekah" <Bekah0176 at sbcglobal.net>
> Cc: "pynchon -l" <pynchon-l at waste.org>
> Date: Thursday, October 16, 2008, 6:17 PM
> First, kudos, again to Bekah on her excellent glosses....
>
> About the "Ivanov" chapter - there's a tone
> that's set in this episode which grates against my grain
> - I'll try to remember to come back to this when we get
> to "The Shot Tower" - but it's a tone of
> self-conscious parody. I find that this chapter feels too
> arch, too much a knowing pastiche of Dostoevsky's style,
> themes,, authorial mannerisms. It's a bit of a bravura
> performance...one is (I am) constantly aware of how well
> Coetzee writes. But it doesn't convince or move me.
> This stilted quality may actually be one of Coetzee's
> points - the tendency of art and artifice to get in the way
> of life...
> Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Mark Kohut <markekohut at yahoo.com>
>
> Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2008 10:38:22
> To: Bekah<Bekah0176 at sbcglobal.net>
> Cc: pynchon -l<pynchon-l at waste.org>
> Subject: Re: TMOP: Chapter 8 - Ivanov
>
>
> More on Ivanov. Some
> 'airship'--overview--speculations.
> D. here is crazed at least. Maybe a bit 'crazy'
> [defined as out of reality
> at times].
>
> The real but also symbolic dog, as Bekah teaches us. Dogs:
> perhaps the animal most like a human--man's best
> friend?. Most socialized. Yet, more dependent, most
> vulnerable? Here, like an impoverished young Russian?
>
> Is the dog as D. sees him, D.'s way of seeing the
> deepest injustice of
> Russian society?..Scraggling, hungry, vulnerable, dependent
> dogs?
>
> Churchill once called his (clinical) depression, a Black
> Dog. Here, like death, like dead Pavel? Intertwining with D.
> (who we see here, per Bekah, as more like Coetzee grapping
> with layers of confused grief than like the Dostevsky of
> reality).
>
> Ivanov is the intersection? He is real (outside this book)
> but what happens to him in it--and in history--is in doubt?
>
> D. as Coetzee ingesting all this? The meaning of the dog,
> Ivanov, D.s actions?
>
>
>
> --- On Sat, 10/11/08, Bekah <Bekah0176 at sbcglobal.net>
> wrote:
>
> > From: Bekah <Bekah0176 at sbcglobal.net>
> > Subject: TMOP: Chapter 8 - Ivanov
> > To: "pynchon -l" <pynchon-l at waste.org>
> > Date: Saturday, October 11, 2008, 1:54 AM
> > Last host-post from me:
> >
> >
> > Chapter 8 - Ivanov
> >
> > This is a really difficult chapter with the pronouns
> > messing with an
> > already complex message. Ambiguous or unclear or
> something
> > (not to
> > disparage ambiguous - there are times when it adds a
> > certain element
> > of the unknown or the idea that both (or more)
> meanings
> > could be true.
> >
> >
> > [ Page 79 D. goes to sleep seeking Pavel but is
> disturbed
> > by a voice
> > calling to him. He goes out and finds it is a dog. ]
> >
> > As I mentioned earlier, dogs are important in Coetzee
> and
> > I think
> > this one is very symbolic.
> >
> >
> > [ Page 80 * The dog is not Pavel and it continues to
> howl.
> > D.
> > knows he must not go back to bed because his son
> will be
> > like a
> > "thief in the night" so D. must expect what
> he
> > does not expect.
> > (But expecting it could nullify it.)
> >
> > * "like a thief in the night" is a
> Biblical
> > phrase, 2 Peter
> > 3:10, 1 Thesselonians 5:2 generally simply means
> someone
> > (Christ)
> > will arrive without any announcement - unexpectedly -
> D.
> > was very
> > religious so his thinking in Biblical terms is very
> > realistic.
> >
> >
> > [ D. finds the dog tied and tangled with chain to a
> > drainpipe. It
> > whines.]
> >
> > The dog is trapped like Coetzee and Dostoevsky are in
> > their writing
> > (tied to cultural barriers and getting twisted around
> their
> > own
> > thinking - Coetzee writes about the barriers of South
> > African
> > apartheid a fair bit.) Or the dog may be trapped
> like
> > Pavel is in
> > death. - Both?
> >
> > ***************
> > [ Page 81 The dog is terrified. D. tickles it.
> "Is
> > this what I
> > will be doing for the rest of my days, he wonders:
> peering
> > into the
> > eyes of dogs and beggars?" D. untangles the
> dog,
> > pets him and
> > leaves him chained there. He wonders about the
> owners -
> > and thinks
> > that Pavel should have his own death, that D. has no
> right
> > to use it
> > as the occasion of his reformation. ]
> >
> > * Love that line and thought
> >
> > [ But he's kidding himself - "Pavel's
> death
> > will always be his
> > death." ]
> >
> > Pavel's death is D.'s death.
> >
> > [ " 'Who will save the baby?' he seems
> to
> > hear within him, plaintive
> > words that come from he does not know where, in a
> > peasant's singsong
> > voice." ]
> >
> > And "peasant voices," for Dostoevsky, are
> often
> > authentic voices,
> > especially when they are used in religion or religious
> > themes - life
> > and death. ]
> >
> >
> > [ D. carries Pavel like a dying baby, blue with cold.
> ]
> >
> > * So is it, "Who will save Pavel?" Or who
> will
> > save Sophia, his
> > infant daughter who probably died only a few months
> prior
> > to this -
> > if Dostoevsky's chronology is followed.
> >
> > [ " ' Raise up that last thing and cherish
> > it.' D. thinks this but
> > doesn't know if the words come from Pavel or not.
> ]
> >
> > * "The least thing" could be Biblical
> again:
> > Matthew 25: 40 -
> > "And the King will answer them, ‘Truly, I say
> to
> > you, as you did it
> > to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it
> to
> > me.’
> > Sounds about right for Dostoevsky in his religious
> mind.
> >
> > So who went out to answer the dog's call? Pavel
> in
> > D's body? Have
> > we strayed into the occult here?
> >
> > ****************
> > [ Page 82 If Pavel did utter those words, should he
> go
> > back and
> > release the dog? Or is it the beggar who is least
> and
> > needs to be
> > released? He feels totally hopeless but he knows he
> will
> > never again
> > go out in the night to answer a dog's call.
> "I
> > am I," he thinks
> > despairingly.
> >
> > [ D. tries to argue that the dog is not his son but
> he
> > loses -
> > "Pavel will not be saved till he has freed the
> dog and
> > brought it
> > into his bed, brought the least thing, the beggarmen
> and
> > the
> > beggarwomen too, and much else he does not yet know
> > of..."
> >
> > * This seems like some kind of religious contract
> which D.
> > is trying
> > to bargain with God. Bargaining is part of the
> grief
> > process. So
> > is guilt - I think D. feels very, very guilty for the
> way
> > he
> > neglected Pavel and was harsh on him.
> >
> > [ D. says he seeks the truth but realizes that the
> truth
> > has been
> > pouring down on him and he is drowning in it yet he
> wants
> > more -
> > reverse and reverse the reversal - a Jesuitical
> trick?]
> > * This one is more like the Epilogue of The Brothers
> > Karamazov when
> > Alyosha has to admit that his thinking about escape
> and
> > forgiveness
> > is like the lie becoming the truth - Jesuitical
> conundrums
> > and
> > equivocation - tricks.
> >
> > * D. has twisted himself around his tether just like
> the
> > dog.
> >
> >
> >
> > [ D. is standing in the street - his hands smell like
> dog,
> > his tears
> > like salt. "Salt, for those who need salt."
>
> > And D. tries to
> > determine whether a thing is a thing or the thing is a
> sign
> > and knows
> > that kind of thinking will defeat him. "And
> beware,
> > beware, he
> > reminds himself: the dog on the chain, the second dog,
> is
> > nothing in
> > itself, is not an illumination, merely an animal
> > likeness!"
> >
> > * This "salt of the earth" stuff is from
> the
> > Bible again - Matthew
> > (again) 5:13 - Sermon on the Mount - and probably an
> > allusion to
> > peasants. Dostoevsky loved the Russian peasant
> > religiosity.
> >
> > Very strange find:
> http://marinablack.visualserver.com/
> > Portfolio_main.cfm?nk=5421&nS=0&i=
> >
> >
> > > They asked, "Why have you taken them? Was
> there a
> > reason since
> > > you've never liked to collect them;
> you've
> > always liked to look at
> > > them and sometimes leaf'd them through your
> > fingers?" then I, "I
> > > should not have done it; I did not want to,
> no!"
> > and I again, "Is
> > > someone knocking at the door? Listen? - A dog is
> > howling; I smell
> > > the dog on my hands and the salt for those who
> need
> > salt!" and then
> > > they, "The dog is not a sign, it is just a
> dog
> > among many dogs
> > > howling in the night. So, what about them? Why
> have
> > you taken them
> > > now?"
> >
> >
> > [ Meanwhile, is someone watching him from the
> doorway? ]
> >
> > ***************
> >
> > Page 84
> >
> > [ His imagination is full of bearded men with
> glittering
> > eyes who
> > hide din the dark passages. but he senses another
> > presence. Sees a
> > man crouched. ]
> >
> > Suspicion again - it's always there in this book -
> > something
> > lurking, spying - from Maximov to D. himself, the
> ultimate
> >
> > cannibalistic voyeur, to Nechaev.
> >
> > [ " Expect the one you do not expect. Very
> well;
> > but must every
> > beggar then be treated as a prodigal son, embraced,
> > welcomed into the
> > home, feasted? Yes, that is what Pascal would say:
> bet on
> > everyone,
> > every beggar, every mangy dog; only thus will you be
> sure
> > that the
> > One, the true son, the thief in the night, will not
> sip
> > through the
> > net." ]
> >
> > * Prodigal son parable from the Bible - Luke 15:
> 11-32. -
> >
> > The Gospel of Luke is also used for the whole idea of
> > demons in Demons -
> >
> > "The facts have shown us that the illness that
> seized
> > civilized
> > Russians was much stronger than we ourselves imagined,
> and
> > that the
> > matter did not end with Belinsky, Kraevsky, etc. But
> what
> > occurred
> > here is what is witnessed to by the evangelist Luke.
> > Exactly the same
> > thing happened with us: the demons came out of the
> Russian
> > man and
> > entered into a herd of swine, i.e. into the Nechaevs
> > [Russian
> > terrorists] . . ."
> >
> > That's from a letter from Dostoevsky to Maykov
> about
> > his ideas for
> > "Demons."
> >
> >
> http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/jim_forest/pevear.htm
> >
> > * Pascal - Pascal's Wager - "If you
> believe in
> > God and turn out to
> > be incorrect, you have lost nothing -- but if you
> don't
> > believe in
> > God and turn out to be incorrect, you will go to hell.
> > Therefore it
> > is foolish to be an atheist."
> >
> > **********
> >
> > [ Page 85 - Is betting on all the numbers still
> > gambling? And a
> > paragraph about the wife who pawns her wedding ring
> for
> > money for
> > the gambler who loses it so the wife goes out to pawn
> the
> > wedding
> > dress. ]
> >
> > [ This is straight from Dostoevsky's life during
> the
> > years in Europe
> > when Dostoevsky was down to pawning his wife's
> jewelry,
> > including the
> > wedding ring, to get himself out of gambling troubles
> and
> > he went
> > straight to the card table with hit.)
> >
> > http://www.dartmouth.edu/~karamazo/bio08.html
> >
> > http://www.nplusonemag.com/gambling-supplement
> >
> > [ D. compares "giving it all" to Anna, the
> > landlady, and her love
> > making. Is that an indicator of how she will give
> herself
> > to the god
> > of chance? ]
> >
> > But perhaps there's also a Biblical connection to
> the
> > parable of the
> > widow's mite? Mark 12:38-44 ]
> >
> > * And D. remembers and thinks, "She, he thinks:
> she
> > is the one, it
> > is she whom I want. Therefore..."
> >
> > **********
> >
> > Page 86
> >
> > [ And thinking this about Anna - D. goes back
> downstairs
> > and offers
> > his bed to the beggar.]
> >
> > D. is figuring he has to give his all to redeem Pavel?
>
> > Like he's
> > pawned him? Or he's what??? I don't see the
> > logical connection but
> > perhaps its just about action? Just give it - cover
> the
> > bases - play
> > a Pascal. Will Anna appreciate D's giving his
> bed to
> > a bum? -
> >
> > [ the beggar says: " ' This is my post, I
> must
> > stay at my post.' "
> > But they get upstairs and the beggar introduces
> himself as
> > Ivan Pyotr
> > Alexandrovich.
> >
> > This is apparently the fictionalization of I.I. Ivanov
> the
> > historical
> > victim of Necheav and People's Vengeance.
> Dostoevsky
> > used Ivanov in
> > Demons under the name Ivan Shatov. This scene of
> Ivanov
> > changing
> > his mind about accepting D.'s offer of his room
> may
> > symbolize
> > Ivanov's change of heart about the
> "People's
> > Revenge" group. (not
> > to go further due to spoilers)
> >
> > See - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sergey_Nechayev
> >
> > ***********
> > [ Page 87 Ivan advises D. to cry for his lost son.
> > "We must learn
> > to cry from the fair sex, Fyodor Mikhailovich."
> Ivan
> > cries. " 'I
> > believe I will grieve for my lost babies for the rest
> of my
> > days,'
> > he says." ]
> >
> > D. earlier thought of Pavel as a cold dying baby in
> his
> > arms.
> >
> > ************
> > [ Page 88 D wonders if people tell him their stories
> > because he is
> > a writer. Ivanov talks to him about charity and grief
> and
> > God. D.
> > thinks Ivan a charlatan and they sleep.
> >
> > * Ivan's name changes on this page - Ivan Pyotr
> > Alexandrovich becomes
> > Ivanov as in I.I. I don't know enough about
> Russian
> > naming to know why.
> >
> > [ D. wakes him up and says, "Time to leave,
> your
> > shift is over."
> > Ivanov doesn't notice the irony. }
> >
> > * Another ambiguity, imo, does D. suspect anything -
> what?
> >
> > ************
> >
> > [ Page 89 Ivanov cadges breakfast and comments,
> > "We get what we
> > deserve, in a higher sense. Nevertheless I sometimes
> > wonder, do we
> > not also deserve, each of us, a refuge, a haven, where
> > justice will
> > for a while relent and pity be taken on us? - spirit
> of
> > Scripture:
> > That we deserve what we do not deserve?
> >
> > * Ivanov wants to stay, rambles - tries to get D.
> into a
> > philosophical discussion. D. has to almost kick him
> out.
> >
> > *********
> >
> > [ Page 90 A fat young girl dressed like a nun
> novice
> > comes to
> > D.'s door. She says she's a friend of
> Pavel's
> > and wants to see what
> > he left behind. She has called before but the
> landlady
> > wouldn't
> > admit her. She says her name is Katri - a Finnish
> name.
> > "She looks
> > like a Finn, too." ]
> >
> > * Finland was an technically an autonomous Grand Duchy
> of
> > Russia from
> > 1819. They experienced a severe famine between 1866-
> 1868
> > - I'm told
> > that my ancestors had to cook and eat the bark from
> the
> > trees. -
> > There was probably quite a lot of immigration during
> that
> > time.
> > Petersburg is quite close. There were no political
> > ramifications to
> > the famine - not political blame or uprisings.
> > Historically, this
> > girl would have come to Petersburg and been introduced
> to
> > the cause
> > there.
> >
> > **********
> > [Page 91 " 'You realize that the police
> killed
> > your stepson,' "
> > D. is stunned. She says the police killed him and
> called
> > it
> > suicide. Katri is belligerent and restless.
> She's
> > apparently
> > looking for the list of names which Maximov has.
> "
> > ' Are you one of
> > Nechaev's people? ' " She glares,
> > "triumphant." Would I tell you?
> > Do you know the police are watching this house?]
> >
> > The question at that point is who is Ivan working for?
> How
> > did Pavel
> > really die? We have more dark, brooding suspense.
> >
> > *********
> >
> > [ Page 92 - Katri, in D.'s mind, is in the grip
> of a
> > devil. "The
> > devil inside her twitching, skipping, unable to keep
> > still." ]
> >
> > *This is certainly the theme and spirit of Demons.
> >
> > [ D. tells himself he will give Ivan shelter if he
> shows
> > up again.
> > "...that is enough for the bargain to hold.
> "
> > * He apparently thinks he has made a bargain with God
> - but
> > it's the
> > same one-sided bargain he told Matryona Pavel made -
> > "if you (God)
> > love me you'll save me."
> >
> > *********
> >
> > [ Page 93 - But D. knows he can do more than be
> willing -
> > he can
> > actually go forth and save Ivanov from his cold
> watchpost.
> > So he
> > searches for him in order to offer him shelter again
> and
> > finally
> > thinking, "I have done what I can."
> "But
> > he knows in his heart he
> > has not. There is more he could do, much more."
> ]
> >
> > * What more could he do? He's wrestling with
> the
> > angel here for
> > sure - with an internal spiritual force - a fight
> which has
> > its
> > origins in some really basic human condition.
> >
> > Bekah
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