Ch 15

[rich]

u said: I have listened to several passages and parts of the Ring  but
never was enticed or inspired to hear or see the whole opera. On the
other hand I think the Bugs Bunny cartoon "Kill the Waaabit, Kill
the.." is an ingenious and hilarious satire that puts Wagner's music
exactly where it belongs.
__________
Wagner's music is wonderful (w/o the singing mind you)--the Lohengrin,
Rienzi, Tristan preludes and much of the Ring is really unique stuff.
Not sure what u mean by saying the music exactly where it belongs (the
bugs stuff is great, yes)--sure, its bombastic but beautiful in many
parts.

the art stands, divorced from the artist--that's all that should
matter. More so than Wagner the artist, Winnie Wagner (married to
Wagner's son, Siegfried) is alot more interesting a figure of
study--Brigitte Harmann's bio of her is great reading--the whole
Wagner/Hitler connection (she also wrote Hitler's Vienna which is
worth reading, too)

you said:  Can anyone give me an example of  a single bit of nonsense
that has only been accepted through the medium of music?

on example: I'd say 'Joey' by Bob Dylan--great song but an utter wack
job in all other respects--an elegy for a thug (i can't detect any
irony in the delivery). hard not laugh when I listen to it

best

rich



On 4/14/09, Joseph Tracy <brook7 at sover.net> wrote:
> On Apr 14, 2009, at 1:04 PM, Robin Landseadel wrote:
>
>
>> On Apr 14, 2009, at 8:31 AM, Joseph Tracy wrote:
>>
>>
>>> On Apr 14, 2009, at 10:39 AM, Robin Landseadel wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>> Somehow I'm reminded of Anna Russell's line [concerning Der Ring
>>>> des Nibelungen] that in Opera you can do anything you like, as
>>>> long as you sing it. Es Posible!
>>>>
>>>>
>>> I repeat.  What is shameful to write or express  in music that is
>>> not also shamelessly and successfully written or expressed in
>>> essays, speeches, graphic  imagery, poetry,  stories etc.?
>>> Nonsense is enjoyed and respected by many in every medium,
>>> written, spoken, heard  etc.
>>>
>>> Can anyone give me an example of  a single bit of nonsense that
>>> has only been accepted through the medium of music?
>>>
>>
>> Whoa, whoa, whoa!
>>
>> I'd say that music can overide one's moral governor. What Anna
>> Russell was pointing to is how one can become so entranced by the
>> melodies and harmonies or jacked into rhythmic entrainment that one
>> might overlook the overt anti-semitism, incest, murder and all the
>> other morally dubious offerings of the characters in the "Ring"
>> 'cause it's "Art" with several "H's" in the middle. I recall seeing/
>> hearing Die Meistersinger von Nürnberg in San Francisco, and was
>> overwhelmed by the strength of the music. At the same time I could
>> clearly hear what Hitler heard in Die Meistersinger, that tribal
>> call to nationalism. I certainly don't want to get into any ". . .
>> example of  a single bit of nonsense that has only been
>> accepted . . .", 'cause I'm an "and" sort of guy, but there's no
>> doubt that music has contributed to many a political cause,
>> activating the same sort of sub-brain mechanism related to the Meme
>> being spread in the Hulu ads, another evil plot by our alien
>> overlords to turn our brains to [yum!] jelly.
>>
>> When you start a film with a pair of Steppenwolf tunes underscoring
>> a coke deal with Phil [18 to life] Spector and end it with gunshot
>> blasts blowing away the hippies with Roger McGuinn's weepy "Ballad
>> of Easy Rider" as the sound-bed then you're cueing the audience to
>> feel certain emotions with music. Imagine Easy Rider without the
>> soundtrack. Much as Wagner signals a rather tribal form of
>> patriotism when Hans Sachs exhorts us to hold true to "Holy German
>> Art," we are signaled to be sympathetic to a pair of [let's face
>> it, Charlie] lowlifes by virtue of the tunes that follow them
>> around. Imagine Hector's re-write of Easy Rider with Frenesi—what
>> hits would Hector pick for the soundtrack?  So, no—not one, not
>> "only" but music's still working, cueing us to feel certain emotions.
>>
>
> There is some confusion here and I see it is partly my mistake.  Your
> Ring comment is perfectly valid in itself.  My issue is with Huxley's
> statement  about the use of music.  I think I was misconstruing your
> statement as  a reinforcement of Huxley's statement  rather than a
> comment on it and on the theme of the thread.
>
> I agree that music or any art can enhance and reinforce  nonsense or
> morally repugnant ideas  and make them more palatable. But music has
> no "advantage"in this respect. Any medium can accomplish this.
> Huxley says"Nonsense which it would be shameful for a reasonable
> being to write, speak or hear spoken can be sung or listened to by
> that same rational being with pleasure and even with a kind of
> intellectual conviction...."
>
> This is just not true. The nasty ideas in the Ring have a long
> history in other printed and spoken formats., and  these ideas have
> many listeners including serious artists and intellectuals. Also
> Nazis were as likely to listen to Bach as Wagner. Every shameful or
> propagandistic message in history has enjoyed a multitude of
> written, musical, dramatic and graphic exponents. Some will favor the
> written crap and some the musical crap, but generally people take
> even the worst ideas more seriously in written form and music has a
> lower status as a format for serious political or philosophical
> ideas.  This lowering of status offsets any "advantage". People may
> go to war singing propaganda songs , but they do not go to war
> because of propaganda  songs. They are far more likely to be induced
> to go to war by speeches and written propaganda and a resulting
> conviction that they will benefit,  and will defend and promote what
> they hold dear.
>
> I don't believe music can override one's moral governer, only
> influence choices that are open to suasion.    I never liked Wagner,
> always feeling even on an abstract musical level that his music was
> imperious, warlike and a glorification of power. Skillful and
> appealing in many ways, but ultimately cartoony to my ear, and not to
> my taste. I certainly don't think everyone who likes it agrees with
> the mythic messages. To each his own.  Steppenwolf  has a similar
> aesthetic appeal as Wagner for me, i can enjoy it for a while in
> small doses , but I never bought any, and didn't pursue a life of
> drug deals, bikes, and whorehouses because I liked Easy Rider or Born
> to Be Wild .  The fact that we are asked to look with sympathy into
> the lives  of some lowlifes does not constitute an advertisement for
> drug dealers. In many ways it is the contrast between the upward
> journey of the music and the downward journey of the characters that
> helps create a complex piece of art  that transcends propaganda.  It
> was also marked by dialogue that sounded more like real people than
> most movies of the time.
>
> I have listened to several passages and parts of the Ring  but never
> was enticed or inspired to hear or see the whole opera. On the other
> hand I think the Bugs Bunny cartoon "Kill the Waaabit, Kill the.." is
> an ingenious and hilarious satire that puts Wagner's music exactly
> where it belongs.
>
>
>
>