Ch 15

[Mark Kohut]

anybody remember better than I do, pynchon's dig at Romanticism in Against the Day?



----- Original Message ----
From: Richard Ryan <richardryannyc at yahoo.com>
To: pynchon-l at waste.org; Joseph Tracy <brook7 at sover.net>
Sent: Tuesday, April 14, 2009 5:27:33 PM
Subject: Re: Ch 15


I frankly don't see how its possible to get from (glorious) 19th Century romantic music to (ignominious) 20th Century ideologies.  Music has tremendous psychological resonances that can be pressed into the service of various offensive causes, but there's no guilt by very delayed association here.  If Wagner's operas were naturally conducive to fascism or militarism, "The Perfect Wagnerite" would not have been written by a utopian socialist.

--- On Tue, 4/14/09, Joseph Tracy <brook7 at sover.net> wrote:

> From: Joseph Tracy <brook7 at sover.net>
> Subject: Ch 15
> To: pynchon-l at waste.org
> Date: Tuesday, April 14, 2009, 4:54 PM
> On Apr 14, 2009, at 1:04 PM, Robin
> Landseadel wrote:
> 
> 
> > On Apr 14, 2009, at 8:31 AM, Joseph Tracy wrote:
> > 
> > 
> >> On Apr 14, 2009, at 10:39 AM, Robin Landseadel
> wrote:
> >> 
> >> 
> >>> Somehow I'm reminded of Anna Russell's line
> [concerning Der Ring des Nibelungen] that in Opera you can
> do anything you like, as long as you sing it. Es Posible!
> >>> 
> >>> 
> >> I repeat.  What is shameful to write or
> express  in music that is not also shamelessly and
> successfully written or expressed in essays, speeches,
> graphic  imagery, poetry,  stories etc.? 
> Nonsense is enjoyed and respected by many in every medium,
> written, spoken, heard  etc.
> >> 
> >> Can anyone give me an example of  a single
> bit of nonsense that has only been accepted through the
> medium of music?
> >> 
> > 
> > Whoa, whoa, whoa!
> > 
> > I'd say that music can overide one's moral governor.
> What Anna Russell was pointing to is how one can become so
> entranced by the melodies and harmonies or jacked into
> rhythmic entrainment that one might overlook the overt
> anti-semitism, incest, murder and all the other morally
> dubious offerings of the characters in the "Ring" 'cause
> it's "Art" with several "H's" in the middle. I recall
> seeing/hearing Die Meistersinger von Nürnberg in San
> Francisco, and was overwhelmed by the strength of the music.
> At the same time I could clearly hear what Hitler heard in
> Die Meistersinger, that tribal call to nationalism. I
> certainly don't want to get into any ". . . example of 
> a single bit of nonsense that has only been accepted . . .",
> 'cause I'm an "and" sort of guy, but there's no doubt that
> music has contributed to many a political cause, activating
> the same sort of sub-brain mechanism related to the Meme
> being spread in the Hulu ads, another evil plot by our alien
> overlords to turn our brains to [yum!] jelly.
> > 
> > When you start a film with a pair of Steppenwolf tunes
> underscoring a coke deal with Phil [18 to life] Spector and
> end it with gunshot blasts blowing away the hippies with
> Roger McGuinn's weepy "Ballad of Easy Rider" as the
> sound-bed then you're cueing the audience to feel certain
> emotions with music. Imagine Easy Rider without the
> soundtrack. Much as Wagner signals a rather tribal form of
> patriotism when Hans Sachs exhorts us to hold true to "Holy
> German Art," we are signaled to be sympathetic to a pair of
> [let's face it, Charlie] lowlifes by virtue of the tunes
> that follow them around. Imagine Hector's re-write of Easy
> Rider with Frenesi—what hits would Hector pick for the
> soundtrack?  So, no—not one, not "only" but music's
> still working, cueing us to feel certain emotions.
> > 
> 
> There is some confusion here and I see it is partly my
> mistake.  Your Ring comment is perfectly valid in
> itself.  My issue is with Huxley's statement 
> about the use of music.  I think I was misconstruing
> your statement as  a reinforcement of Huxley's
> statement  rather than a comment on it and on the theme
> of the thread.
> 
> I agree that music or any art can enhance and
> reinforce  nonsense or morally repugnant ideas 
> and make them more palatable. But music has no "advantage"in
> this respect. Any medium can accomplish this.
> Huxley says"Nonsense which it would be shameful for a
> reasonable being to write, speak or hear spoken can be sung
> or listened to by that same rational being with pleasure and
> even with a kind of intellectual conviction...."
> 
> This is just not true. The nasty ideas in the Ring have a
> long history in other printed and spoken formats., and 
> these ideas have many listeners including serious artists
> and intellectuals. Also Nazis were as likely to listen to
> Bach as Wagner. Every shameful or propagandistic message in
> history has enjoyed a multitude of  written, musical,
> dramatic and graphic exponents. Some will favor the written
> crap and some the musical crap, but generally people take
> even the worst ideas more seriously in written form and
> music has a lower status as a format for serious political
> or philosophical ideas.  This lowering of status
> offsets any "advantage". People may go to war singing
> propaganda songs , but they do not go to war because of
> propaganda  songs. They are far more likely to be
> induced to go to war by speeches and written propaganda and
> a resulting conviction that they will benefit,  and
> will defend and promote what they hold dear.
> 
> I don't believe music can override one's moral governer,
> only influence choices that are open to suasion. 
>   I never liked Wagner, always feeling even on an
> abstract musical level that his music was imperious, warlike
> and a glorification of power. Skillful and appealing in many
> ways, but ultimately cartoony to my ear, and not to my
> taste. I certainly don't think everyone who likes it agrees
> with the mythic messages. To each his own. 
> Steppenwolf  has a similar aesthetic appeal as Wagner
> for me, i can enjoy it for a while in small doses , but I
> never bought any, and didn't pursue a life of drug deals,
> bikes, and whorehouses because I liked Easy Rider or Born to
> Be Wild .  The fact that we are asked to look with
> sympathy into the lives  of some lowlifes does not
> constitute an advertisement for drug dealers. In many ways
> it is the contrast between the upward journey of the music
> and the downward journey of the characters that helps create
> a complex piece of art  that transcends
> propaganda.  It was also marked by dialogue that
> sounded more like real people than most movies of the time.
> 
> I have listened to several passages and parts of the
> Ring  but never was enticed or inspired to hear or see
> the whole opera. On the other hand I think the Bugs Bunny
> cartoon "Kill the Waaabit, Kill the.." is an ingenious and
> hilarious satire that puts Wagner's music exactly where it
> belongs.
> 
> 
> 
>