[Joseph Tracy]

Laura gives  a very telling overview of female characters.   
Interesting reading of Yashmeen. Do you think there can be women who  
are of that nature, who live out of a very classically male  
sensibility? Yashmeen does at least seem aware of the princess  
archetypes and to use them to her advantage, and that would be nearly  
impossible to avoid for an attractive woman.  At first I felt VL had  
strong feminist perspective, now I tend to feel it has a feminist  
bent, but also warns against  over-simplistic feminist stereotypes.  
My sense of this had to do with the women leaders of 24fps, the  
Kunoichi order, and what seems like the somewhat matriarchal Traverse/ 
Becker clan.On my 2nd read I decided the strongest feminist character  
in VL is sister Rochelle. I t would be easy to dismiss her as a kind  
of cartoon. After all,  the ninjettes never really do anything.  I  
take the ninjettes as mostly a projection of male authority fears  
about femi-Nazis and all.  We see that they are actually novices of a  
new vision just trying to establish new patterns of thought and  
behavior. After all there is no intact matriarchal or Feminist social  
models and who could expect something like that to emerge quickly in  
opposition to thousands of years of culture and still be  in harmony  
with the unchangeable  aspects of biology.  I think in this regard  
sister Rochelle stands in pretty well for the best aspect of Feminist  
leadership, first simply by establishing something that is not  
dependent on patriarchal power, and 2nd by not offering easy answers  
to profoundly difficult challenges.  We see her through her  
interaction with Prairie, Takeshi , the sisters and principally DL.  
Her key role in the novel is words of wisdom and the maintenance and  
operation of the Puncutron which is a healing counterforce to the  
Ninja death touch. This is very male female stuff, since the Chi  
force is identified as  a polar interplay between male and female  
energies . The Death touch comes from a patriarchal martial art  
tradition, is set up by a patriarch of the Mafia, to execute  
vengeance on an out of control warlord type. It goes wrong , as  
vengeance is liable to do. So it seems to me that we are looking at   
male martial/death forces being countered by female healing/life forces.

I would also say that one of the key life affirming or positive ideas  
of the novel has to do with negotiation, and honest reconciliation  
with the past.  This plays out in several male female relationships,   
most notably Takeshi and DL.

I find Takeshi to be the most challenging and elusive character in  
VL,  I think OBA invested a lot in Takeshi and wish we could spend  
some time reviewing his role.


On Apr 21, 2009, at 9:35 AM, kelber at mindspring.com wrote:

> Family may be related to the feminine, but equating that with  
> feminism seems a stretch.  I don't believe TRP is sexist, but is  
> absence of sexism all it takes to be feminist?  I'd say of all his  
> characters, Oedipa is the most feminist.  She's a seeker whose life  
> isn't defined/determined by the fact that she's female.  Sure, the  
> story's set in motion by the death of a former boyfriend, but she  
> goes out to investigate, walking out on her husband without a  
> thought, questioning men, more than beguiling them.
>
> Prairie is also a seeker, but she's still young and dependent and  
> is subject to that fatal attraction to fascist men that brought her  
> mother down and somewhat tainted her grandmother (not to mention  
> her great-grand-aunt Lake).  At the end, we're not sure what  
> Prairie will become, other than an adult.  DL is tough, yes, but  
> she's cartoonish, the Floozie with an Uzi, a bit of a sex fantasy  
> for men.  I never felt that Yashmeen (aside from having a baby) was  
> female.  She seems like a male character with a female name tacked  
> on.  She relates to other women purely as sex objects.  Dally is  
> more successful as a female character, but her series of roles:  
> faux-abductee in Chinatown, then sometimes model, later spy- 
> mistress, are all based on using her sexuality for money.  All of  
> these are strong female characters, but that doesn't make them  
> feminist.  For me, that word implies either a transcendence of  
> being an object for men (which, even with an occasional sexual  
> dalliance, Oedipa a!
>  chieves -- men don't drool over her or relate to her as strictly  
> fuckable); or it means a woman who assesses each situation in terms  
> of what it means specifically for women (none of TRP's female  
> characters do this).
>
> Laura
>
> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Mark Kohut <markekohut at yahoo.com>
>
>>
>>
>> I agree on Family from Vineland on.
>>
>> My sorta argument
>>
>>  V. is a woman who has had her humanity turn bit by bit into  
>> inanimate objects.
>>
>> Oedipa is, as Bekah says, ahead of her time, timed pretty  
>> perfectly by TRP and the woman as
>> receiver of signs, messages maybe, awaiting some kind of  
>> revelation. Not a male, not 'aggressive',
>> not charismatic nor powerful, but one pursuing the source of a  
>> man's powerful holdings.
>>
>> Gentle Slothrop and snatches of Love and connection animate GR.  
>> Connection, love, the Counterforce
>> to the evil empire that the Powerful (charismatic) Men have built  
>> and are now destroying with that same
>> conquering spirit. To conquer rocketry is to conquer the World,  
>> They believe. The female values are NOT
>> that.
>>
>> Then what we have observed of Vineland and AtD  
>> fit........................M & D's families and females. And
>> connected protagonists.
>>
>> female values = nurturance, connection, absence of power-seeking,  
>> life acceptance, lack of charismatic
>> acting out, giving birth, joy in the quotidian, preteriteness.
>>
>> Even P's loveable males are so by embracing the above values.
>>
>> Pynchon has been a kind of feminist his whole oeuvre, his whole  
>> life, I suggest.
>>
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----
>> From: rich <richard.romeo at gmail.com>
>> To: Mark Kohut <markekohut at yahoo.com>
>> Cc: pynchon -l <pynchon-l at waste.org>
>> Sent: Monday, April 20, 2009 11:04:38 AM
>> Subject: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
>>
>> I would say family, Mark though I don't necessarily disagree with  
>> yr statement
>>
>> the Zombinis, the chums and their mates, cyprian discovery of his,
>> even the wacked traverses through their travails
>>
>> Vineland and M&D are as well, but it's really flushed out in AtD
>>
>> rich
>>
>> On 4/20/09, Mark Kohut <markekohut at yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> I would say the values manifested in AtD are...feminist, female,
>>> 'feminine'...
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message ----
>>> From: rich <richard.romeo at gmail.com>
>>> To: Bekah <Bekah0176 at sbcglobal.net>
>>> Cc: Mark Kohut <markekohut at yahoo.com>; pynchon -l <pynchon- 
>>> l at waste.org>
>>> Sent: Sunday, April 19, 2009 9:53:30 PM
>>> Subject: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
>>>
>>> i think that's one thing that AtD is missing--someone as conflicted
>>> and compromised as Katje or Frenesi--Lake is the closest but falls
>>> short in comparison
>>>
>>> I don't perceive AtD as overtly feminist as Vineland--does a work  
>>> that
>>> includes as developed female characters as male ones constitute a
>>> feminist work? i'm not sure about that
>>>
>>> Vineland's stories are mostly driven by women; not in AtD--its the
>>> chums and the traverse brothers
>>> rich
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sun, Apr 19, 2009 at 3:38 PM, Bekah <Bekah0176 at sbcglobal.net>  
>>> wrote:
>>>> I think there's a good steady progression of feminist influence  
>>>> from the
>>>> short stories of Slow Learner and V., where it's pretty slim,   
>>>> to Against
>>>> the Day where Lake, Dolly,  Yashmeen and a bunch of other women  
>>>> have the
>>>> about same amount of variation and development as the males.     
>>>> Imo,
>>>> Oedipa
>>>> was a bit ahead of her time and  I'm so looking forward to  
>>>> Inherent Vice.
>>>>
>>>> Bekah
>>>>
>>>> On Apr 19, 2009, at 11:39 AM, Mark Kohut wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Robin seconds Richard Ryan:
>>>>> If any of Pynchon's books show Feminist influences, than this  
>>>>> is the
>>>>> one---
>>>>>
>>>>> (where it splits wide open and lies all
>>>>> opened in Against the Day....)
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ----- Original Message ----
>>>>> From: Robin Landseadel <robinlandseadel at comcast.net>
>>>>> To: pynchon-l at waste.org
>>>>> Sent: Saturday, April 18, 2009 10:29:49 AM
>>>>> Subject: Re: Re: Re: Re:
>>>>>
>>>>> On Apr 18, 2009, at 4:25 AM, Richard Ryan wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Don't remember who on the list suggested that Prairie was the  
>>>>>> "true"
>>>>>> protagonist of VL. . .
>>>>>
>>>>> Yours truly.
>>>>>
>>>>> If any of Pynchon's books show Feminist influences, than this  
>>>>> is the one.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>