rubrics (I like that word), wrecking crews and hugfests

[Joseph Tracy]

On Dec 3, 2009, at 3:01 PM, Robin Landseadel wrote:

> On Dec 3, 2009, at 9:37 AM, Joseph Tracy wrote:
>> On Dec 3, 2009, at 9:11 AM, Michael Bailey wrote:
>
>>> I'm inclined to think maybe Mr Pynchon is
>>> more of a cynic - in the sense of the article that Robin posted  
>>> some time
>>> back about Jesus-as-portrayed-in-many-of-the-gospels was.
>>> (not this onehttp://www.medmalexperts.com/POCM/ 
>>> pagan_origins_cynic_philosophy.html
>>> but something with a lot of small print)
>
>> I guess I should read this article, but the core idea is from the  
>> writings of John Crossan , with which I am quite familiar.
>
> For what it's worth, I got the idea from Burton L, Mack's "The  
> Christian Myth." As I recall, Mack cited Crossan repeatedly in "The  
> Christian Myth."
>
>> A cynic in this sense is a philosophical and particularly in Jesus  
>> case  an  ethical and spiritual practice rather than the cynic in  
>> the modern sense of a dismissive skeptic.
>
> Very close to the Diggers/early Hippies.
Yes but many cynics were more ascetic, not all.
>
>> They rejected the pursuit of money and status and the definitions  
>> of authorities,  pursued a liberated mental state and harmony with  
>> nature.
>
> Not to mention the Beats and the rise of Zen in the west.
Gary Snyder would probly have hung with cynics , peasants and  
Pythagoreans in the ancient mediterranean.
>
>> Jesus was clearly not a straight-up cynic because he included the  
>> communal sharing of food and shelter as central to his way and  
>> incorporated elements of Jewish ethics and mysticism.
>
> Correct me if I'm wrong, but there is a Digger anarchist element to  
> the early Cynics. Or should that be vice versa? Pynchon's idee fixe  
> of heretics and heresy may be based on the Cynics in addition to  
> family history—"Meritorious Price" anyone? Remember as well that  
> the victors write the histories. Mack's books are very interesting  
> in giving us some timelines to work with, along with backstories  
> and background. Mack suggests that "Paulists" [or maybe Paul] co- 
> joined Cynic myth with Jewish myth, creating the Frankenstein's  
> monster of Christianity in the process.
If that is what Mack says I would say way wrong as far as a Paul,  
cynic connection. Paul was very pro authority, and constantly  
emphasized his own authority: "All authorities are ordained by God".  
He believed in a physical resurrection, and was in every important   
way a Pharisee despite his conversion. Crossan argues that Jesus was   
a cynic but that the more literate Pharisees of his disciples wrote  
the Gospels and shaped the religion.
>
> I posted this back in March of 2007, many links have died since:
>
> 	There's a word that needs to be close by when reading
> 	Pynchon: Satire. That's the true foundation of his massive
> 	diatribes, so remember that his style of satire is extraordinarily
> 	inclusive, and that satire is, after all, a development out of the
> 	old Greek cynic philosophy/lifestyle . . .
>
> Much More:
>
> http://tinyurl.com/2cpuvy
>
>> I see, in ATD especially, a very strong case for something like a  
>> meld of Jesus's Christianity/Buddhism/Cynicism/lefty organizing as  
>> what genuine resistance to empire would look like.
>
> I'm seeing the roots of modern Boho culture.
Lot of connections: Lord Bucley's Nazz, TS Eliot , Eastern religion  
mixed with the embrace of free exploration of  ecstatic  experience:  
sex, psychoactive herbs/drugs,   music etc.  Should've included that  
bohemian aspect in my list  but lists with P are hard to control.  
Just hard to be inclusive enough , init?
>
>> The problem is that it can't seem to stop wars. But is anything  
>> else on the table?
>
> Makes for one hell of a Travelogue.
>
>>> The knowledge of a great number of spiritual variants
>>> the willingness to even try some of them (Robin calls this
>>> an interest in heresy, but the only time we see the H word much
>>> is in GR referring specifically to William Slothrop's writings)
>
> Pynchon has a habit of using certain words only a few times. But  
> all of Pynchon's books are full of heresies and heretics.
>
>>> and the unwillingness to adopt a particular system and stop thinking
>>> square with this to some extent...
>
>> I think Hippies and lefties and various melds of lefty resistance  
>> and heretical religious ideas appear constantly and all are  
>> heresies against the dominant paradigms. Pynchon satirizes them  
>> but only in the sense of mourning their diversion from the  
>> liberation they offer.
>
> All those distractions, all those "Mindless Pleasures."
Gotta love them mindless pleasures.  But that alone never was enough  
for many of us.