aw. RE: aw. RE: Why did Elser plant the bomb?

[Joseph Tracy]

I am skeptical of the no Hitler, no holocaust argument . My sense is  
that  this fascist polity of hate and racial /national supremacy    
combined with corporate militarism was a world wide phenom driven by  
many forces and that charismatic assholes always rise to the occasion  
and lots of people die because of the colonialist scape-goating  
nature of the thing.

I don't buy the notion that Karma means all victims are guilty. If  
this is so then all killers are instruments of justice. If Karma is  
real it is a much bigger wheel.

I also think there was heroism and certainly courage in what Esler  
did. The question is how different was that courage from the bravery  
of German soldiers fighting for the Fatherland?   It is easier to see  
that something must be stopped than to know how to stop it.  Not many  
want to pose Ted Koszinski as a hero or role model for destroying the  
corporate world empire.
On Feb 14, 2009, at 9:44 PM, rich wrote:

> just read Ian Kershaw's essay Hitler and the Uniqueness of Nazism.
>
> essentially the deal Kershaw's on about is the historical debate over
> Hitler's role--was he the central cog, the sine qua non of national
> socialism or was he a weak dictator who sowed the field but was
> offstage to events and people and institutions working it out for
> themselves in a belief they were working towards Hitler in some
> way--i.e. a revolution from below in emerging radicalism and eventual
> mass murder.
>
> think Kershaw would agree that no Hitler: No holocaust. he thinks many
> historians underestimate his influence.
>
> all that said, you kill Hitler in 1939 that'd would've been a pretty
> major turn of events
>
> rich
>
> On Sat, Feb 14, 2009 at 11:03 AM, Michael Bailey
> <michael.lee.bailey at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Kai Frederik Lorentzen  wrote:
>>> Ok, we're talking about Hitler, and the year is 1939.
>>
>>> ... Come on, don't leave it like that ...
>>
>>
>> let's say it had succeeded.  You'd have a dead Hitler and the dude  
>> who
>> wrote the Horst Wessel song would write a Hitler song.  Whoever in  
>> the
>> inner circle got ascendancy would have had a great excuse to tighten
>> security.
>> Hitler's strategy lost WWII.  In an alternate  timeline somebody more
>> canny would've maybe not opened 2 fronts, eg.
>>
>> Real life example: Reichstag fire, the dude according to my info  
>> was a
>> sincere anarchist.  What did his deed accomplish?
>>
>> Now Hitler in 1923...a lot more tempting...but find a way to  
>> embarrass
>> him publicly instead of kill him, and I'll sign on...
>>
>>>
>>