AtD post...the Chums, misc. and even more misc

[Paul Mackin]

----- Original Message ----- 
From: <kelber at mindspring.com>
To: <pynchon-l at waste.org>
Sent: Sunday, March 29, 2009 1:06 AM
Subject: Re: AtD post...the Chums, misc. and even more misc


> Thanks, JT.  This is a really thought-provoking analysis of the Chums of 
> Chance and their development through the novel.  One has to wonder if 
> there are any real-life parallels (or if TRP at least thinks there are) to 
> the stage the Chums attain by the end of ATD.
>
> Laura

Could we be dealing here with what is so widely put down as the Western myth 
of progress (economic, social and moral)?

One can always cite examples of things getting better and better but also of 
things getting worse and worse.

The radical critique would be that such gradualism doesn't  move humanity 
anywhere.

I don't know what TRP (the real Pynchon) really thinks but he has made those 
Luddite noises from time to time.

P




>
> -----Original Message-----
>>From: Joseph Tracy <brook7 at sover.net>
>
>>
>>>> Ian L writes:
>>>>
>>>> "Maybe Wilber is near the heart of the matter when he says that
>>>> people
>>>> all start out at the same developmental stage and progress along
>>>> their
>>>> particular developmental path until they get off and say "that's
>>>> enough.  I'll just stay at this stage."  Most commonly that stage is
>>>> the stage of ethnocentric values in which "my group" is the right one
>>>> and everyone else is wrong."
>>>>
>>>> Q: Could this summarize, in a tangential way, where the Chums are
>>>> at the end of AtD?
>>>> Western Civ-centric historically?
>>
>>I see this  "my group" is the right one
>>and everyone else is wrong." as where the chums start out, not where
>>they end up.  Their journey has paralleled western civ in some ways
>>but  they start out authority-male centric, trusting that they are
>>working for the good guys, accepting the pay( economic) arrangements
>>without questions, and full of the cliched presumptions of
>>Christanity /western progess through gee whiz science and being on
>>the right side.   By the end of the story  they have seen the dark
>>soul  of the  future, most of their presumptions have been challenged
>>and overturned  the power structure has changed radically and they
>>have given a very equal status to the feminine, the eastern, the
>>collective, the democratic.   The style is still boys adventure
>>story  but they are no longer in a "my group is right" frame of
>>mind.   The problem is that their  positive send-off takes place in
>>the most fictional of the 3 worlds Pynchon is juggling in this
>>book:   history ( a good portion of the characters, setting,
>>background  and events)- a fictional interpretation of history( the
>>journey of the Traverse clan)  - and  imaginary mythos  (  the
>>adventures of the chums of chance)  .  But I think Pynchon  finds the
>>changes in the chums to be evident in the real world too.
>>
>>
>>
>